EDUCATION COMMITTEE (REPORTS OF THE) ON THE EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL; TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AND EVIDENCE. Mr. HANAN, Chairman.

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1908 Session I, I-13b

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1908. NEW ZEALAND.

EDUCATION COMMITTEE (REPORTS OF THE) ON THE EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL; TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AND EVIDENCE. Mr. HANAN, Chairman.

Reports brought up on 6th and 25th August, and ordered to be printed. ORDERS OF REFERENCE. Extracts from the Journals of the House of Representatives. Friday, the 3rd day of July, 1908. Ordered, " That a Committee be appointed, consisting of ten members, to consider all matters relating to schoolteachers, education, and public instruction generally, public-school training of teachers, higher education, technical education, and manual instruction, and such other matters affecting education as may be referred to it; to have power to call for persons and papers : three to be a quorum. The Committee to consist of Mr. J. Allen, Mr. Baume, Mr. Buddo, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Hogg, Mr. Lethbridge, Mr. T. Mackenzie, Mr. Sidey, and the mover."— (Hon. Mr. Fowlds.)

Tuesday, the 28th day of July, 1908. Ordered, " That the Education Amendment Bill be referred to the Eduoation Committee." —(Hon. Mr. Fowlds.)

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REPORTS. The Education Committee have the honour to report to your honourable House that during their consideration of the Education Amendment Bill this morning, a question arose upon which the Chairman ruled that it was not within the power of the Committee to make an amendment of the Bill which would impose conditions involving the necessity of Parliament making higher appropriations than are proposed in the Bill. The Committee agreed that the question should be submitted to the decision of the Hon. the Speaker. 6th August, 1908. J. A. Hanan, Chairman. The Education Committee having bestowed careful consideration upon the provisions of the Education Amendment Bill referred to them by your honourable House, have the honour to report that they recommend that the said Bill be allowed to proceed, subject to the amendments shown on a copy of the Bill hereto attached. 25th August, 1908. J. A. Hanan, Chairman.

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MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS. FiuDAY, 31 st July, 1908. Present: Mr. Hanan (Chairman), Mr. J. Allen, Mr. Baume, Mr. Buddo, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Hogg, Mr. Lethbridge, Mr. T. Mackenzie, Mr. Sidey, Hon. Mr. Fowlds. Tlie minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. The Committee proceeded with the consideration of the Bill. Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Clause 3. Mr. George Hogben, Inspector-General of Schools, attended, gave evidence, and was examined by members of the Committee, his evidence being taken down by a shorthand reporter. And the taking of evidence being concluded for the day. On motion of Mr. Allen, Resolved, That the evidence taken by this Committee on the Education Act Amendment Bill be printed. The Committee thereupon agreed to adjourn, and adjourned accordingly. Minutes confirmed. Tuesday, 4th August, 1908. Present: Mr. Hanan (Chairman), Mr. J. Allen, Mr. Buddo, Mr. Lethbridge, Mr. T. Mackenzie, Mr. Sidey, Hon. Mr. Fowlds. The minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. Correspondence. —A letter from Mr. Francis Bennet, headmaster'of the Karori School, asking to be allowed to give evidence on the Bill before the Committee, was read. Mr. Mackenzie moved, That the representatives of School Committees be afforded an opportunity of being heard in evidence on the Bill. And the question being put for the adoption of the motion, the Committee divided, the names being taken down as follows : — Ayes, 4.—Mr. Buddo, Mr. Lethbridge, . Mr. T. Mackenzie, Mr. Sidey. Noes, 3. —Mr. Allen, Mr. Hanan, Hon. Mr. Fowlds. And so it was resolved in the affirmative. Motion agreed to. The Committee proceeded with the Bill. Clause 3. Mr. G. Hogbeu, Inspector-General of Schools, attended, and was further examined by members of the Committee. Mr. William Foster, Secretary, New Zealand Educational Institute, Mr. George Macmorran, member of the Executive of the New Zealand Educational Institute, and Mr. John Caughley, Second Assistant of the Training College, attended, and made statements to the Committee. The evidence given was taken down in shorthand by a reporter. Thereupon the Committee agreed to adjourn and meet again on the morrow for the further consideration of the Bill, and adjourned accordingly. Minutes confirmed. Wednesday, sth August, 1908. Present: Mr. Hanan (Chairman), Mr. J. Allen, Mr. Buddo, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Hogg, Mr. T. Mackenzie, Mr. Sidey, Hon. Mr. Fowlds. The minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. Hogben, Inspector-General of Schools, attended, and was examined by the Chairman and members in reference to various points raised by correspondents regarding the Bill. And the taking of evidence having concluded for the day, Clauses 3 to 9, inclusive, agreed to. Thereupon *the Committee agreed to adjourn and meet again on the morrow for the further consideration of the Bill, and adjourned accordingly. Minutes confirmed. Thubsday, 6th August, 1908. Present: Mr. Hanan (Chairman), Mr. J. Allen, Mr. Buddo, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Hogg, Mr. T. Mackenzie, Mr. Sidey, Hon. Mr. Fowlds. The minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. The Committee proceeded with the consideration of the Bill. Clause 10. On the motion of Mr. Buddo, Resolved, That the further consideration of clause 10 be postponed. Clause 10 postponed accordingly. Clause 11 agreed to. Clause 12. Amendment proposed, That all the subsections of the clause down to subsection 5 be struck out, with the view of inserting the following in lieu thereof: —

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(a.) The Board shall send to the Chairman of the Committee, so as to reach him in the ordinary course of post not later than ten days before the day on which the appointment is to be made, — (i.) A list containing the names of all those teachers who are applicants for appointment to a vacancy; (ii.) A list containing not more than four names (in order) of teachers whom the Board considers best fitted to fill such vacancy, stating the length of service and other qualifications of eacli such teacher ; and (iii.) The application and testimonials of each teacher whose name appears on such last-mentioned list : And the Board shall at the same time notify the Committee on what day it proposes to make the appointment: Provided that if no applications for appointment have been invited or received, it shall be sufficient for the Board to send the list last mentioned. The Committee shall select one of the candidates for appointment, and shall, in writing, notify the Board, not later than three days before the day on which the appointment is to be made, of the selection so made, and the Board shall appoint the teacher so selected. (b.) If no such"notification has been received within the time aforesaid, the Board may proceed to make the appointment. (■').) Pending the result of such consultation, the Board may (if necessary) appoint a temporary teacher for any period not exceeding three months. (Mr. T. Mackenzie..) And the question being put, That the subsections proposed to be struck out stand part of the clause, the Committee divided, the names being taken down as follows: — Ayes, 5. —Mr. Allen, Mr. Buddo, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Hardy, Hon..Mr. Fovlds. Joes, 1. — Mr. T. Mackenzie. And so it was resolved in the affirmative. Subsections retained. Further amendment proposed, That all the words after the word " amended," in line 41, down to the word " by," in line 45, be struck out. (Hon. Mr. Fowlds.) Amendment agreed to. Clause as amended agreed to. Clauses 13 to 21, inclusive, agreed to. Clause 10 agreed to. Schedules. First Schedule. Mr. Allen asked the Chairman to rule on the question, Can a member of the Committee propose an alteration of the Bill the effect of which would, by improving the condition of teachers, lead to the necessity of Parliament making higher appropriations than are contemplated under the Bill as it now stands 1 The Chairman ruled that in Committee a member could not move a motion the effect of which would necessitate an increase in the annual appropriations under the Bill. It was not open to him to receive an amendment the effect of which, if adopted, would necessitate an increase in the sums to be voted by Parliament under the provisions of the Bill. On the motion of Mr. Allen, Resolved, That the Committee report to the House asking that the Hon. Mr. Speaker be requested to give a ruling on the point raised. On the motion of Mr. Allen, Resolved, That the further consideration of the First Schedule be postponed until the Committee is in possession of the ruling of the Hon. Mr. Speaker on the point raised. Second Schedule agreed to. Resolved, That the further consideration of the Bill be postponed until next meeting. ■ Thereupon the Committee agreed to adjourn, and adjourned accordingly. Minutes confirmed. FiUDAY, 21st August, 1908. Present: Mr. Hanan (Chairman), Mr. Allen, Mr. Baume, Mr. Buddo, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Hogg, Mr. Lethbridge, Mr. Sidey, Hon. Mr. Fowlds. Mr. Hogben, Inspector-General of Schools, attended the Committee. • The minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. The Committee proceeded with the consideration of the Bill at the First Schedule. A letter was read from the Clerk of the House, forwarding the decision of Hon. Mr. Speaker as embodied in Hansard upon the point raised at last meeting, as to the powers of the Committee in the making of amendments in the Bill. Amendment proposed', That the figures 161 in the fourth column of the first part of the Schedule be struck out, with the view of inserting the figures 151. (Mr. J. Allen.) And the question being put, That the figures 161 stand part of the Schedule, the Committee divided, the names being taken down as follow : — Ayes, 8. —Mr. Baume, Mr. Buddo, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Hogg, Mr. Lethbridge, Mi-. Sidey, Hon. Mr. Fowlds. Noes, I.—Mr. J. Allen. And so it was resolved in the affirmative. Figures retained. Another amendment proposed, That in Part 1 the figures 180 in the third column and the figures 210 in the fourth column be struck out, with the view of inserting the following, namely : In the second column, the figures 4Aand 4b; in the third column, the figures 180 and 195; and in the fourth column, the figures 10.") and 210. (Mr. J. Allen.) And the question being put, That the figures proposed to be struck out stand part of the Schedule, the Committee divided, the names being taken down as follow : —

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Ayes, 6. —Mr. Baume, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Hogg, Mr. Sidey, Hon. Mr. Fowlds. Noes, 2.—Mr. Allen, Mr. Lethbridge. And so it was resolved in the affirmative. Figures retained. First Schedule agreed to. Second Schedule. Part I. Amendment proposed, That in the Second Schedule it be provided that one of the first two assistants shall be a female teacher. (Mr. Baume.) And the question being put for the adoption of the motion, the Committee divided, the names being taken down as follow: — Ayes, 3.—Mr. Baume, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Lethbridge. Noes, s.—Mr. Allen, Mr. Hardy, Mr. Hogg, Mr. Sidey, Hon. Mr. Fowlds. So it passed in the negative. Motion rejected. Second Schedule. Another amendment proposed, That in Part V, in the first line, the figures 30 be struck out, and the figures 20 inserted in lieu thereof. (Hon. Mr. Fowlds.) Amendment agreed to. Another amendment proposed, That after the first line a new grade be constituted by the insertion in the first column of the figures 21-30, and following on the insertion in the second column of the figure 4. (Hon. Mr. Fowlds.) Amendment agreed to. Another amendment proposed, That note («), in Part V, be struck out, and the following be inserted in lieu thereof : To the head teacher of a district high school there shall be payable an amount of £30 per annum in addition to any other amounts payable to him under this Bill. (Hon. Mr. Fowlds.) Amendment agreed to. Another amendment proposed, That the figure 4, in the first column of the Schedule, be struck out, and the figure sbe inserted in lieu thereof. (Mr. ./. Allen.) Amendment put and rejected. Another amendment proposed, That the figures 3b in the Schedule be struck out, and the figure 4be inserted in lieu thereof. (Mr. J. Allen.) Amendment put and rejected. Second Schedule as amended agreed to. Third, Fourth, and Fifth Schedules agreed to. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Fowlds, Resolved, That the Bill be recommitted for the consideration of several new clauses, the nature of which he indicated. Amendment proposed, That the following new subsection be added to clause s—namely5—namely : (5) Notwithstanding anything .in this section, the staff of any public school shall not, at any time before the full number of the said additional assistants has been appointed, be less than it would have been under the principal Act had this Act not been passed, and the additional teachers (if any) required in order to conform to this requirement shall receive salaries of subgrade lα, as determined in the First Schedule hereto. (Hon. Mr. Fowlds.) Amendment agreed to. Another amendment proposed, That the words in line 14, clause 7, " or subgrade " be struck out. (Hon. Mr. Fowlds.) Amendment agreed to. Another amendment proposed, That to subclause 7, of clause 7, the following words be added: and shall receive his first increment of salary on the same date as if he had continued in the position from which he was so transferred. (Hon. Mr. Fowlds.) Amendment agreed to. ■ Another amendment proposed, That the following be inserted, and stand as an additional subclause to clause 7, namely, — (8.) If any public school is, at the beginning of any year, placed in Grade 1 or a higher grade, and that school is thereafter reduced in grade, any teacher who remains in the same position therein shall, for two years after the reduction, continue to receive the same salary as if no such reduction had taken place, but the school shall nevertheless at all times be staffed in accordance with the grade or subgrade to which it belongs for the time being, (//on. Mr. Fowlds.) Amendment agreed to. Another amendment proposed, That the following be inserted and stand as clause 21 of the Bill:— 13a. Section one hundred and seventy-two of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after paragraph (i) thereof, the following paragraph : (ii.) For' the registration of public, private, and secondary school colours and uniforms, and for forbidding the wearing of registered colours and uniforms by persons other than the pupils or staff of schools in respect of which those colours and uniforms are si. registered, and for imposing fines not exceeding two pounds for the breach of any such regulation. (Hon. Mr. Fowlds.) Amendment agreed to. Mr. Baume moved, That the Bill lie recommitted for the purpose of inserting a new clause, the nature of which he indicated. ■ Question put, and motion rejected. Mr. Allen moved, That the Bill be recommitted for the purpose of giving consideration to some of the suggestions contained in a communication from the Rev. P. B. Fraser, M.A. Question put, and motion rejected. Resolved, That the Committee report the Education Act Amendment Bill as amended to the House. Thereupon the Committee agreed to adjourn, and adjourned accordingly. Minutes confirmed.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Friday, 31st July, 1908. George Houbjsn, Inspector-General of Schools, examined. (No. 1.) 1. The Chairman.} it is our intention to discuss this Bill clause by clause, Mr. Hogben, and we should like your opinion with respect to the effect of some of the clauses. The first point to be noted here is the new system of grading?— The chief difference is the reduction in the number of grades of mixed schools from 30 to 10. The limit of the lowest grade before was 16. A capitation was given to ungraded schools (called schools of Grade 0), but there was no fixed salary ; £6 per head was given on account of salary. All the other grades had fixed salaries, and a teacher's salarydid not depend upon the average attendance except indirectly; as long as a school was in any grade the salary was hxed. The decrease in the number of grades allows of a, wider range of variation in average attendance before a school changes its grade. There will be far fewer variations in grade—l estimate about one-sixth of the former number. It is difficult to form an exact estimate, but looking over the returns 1 think the number of variations from grade to grade will be about oiie-sixth of what there are now. Therefore there will be only a sixth of the transfers necessary on that account. The next change of grade is that at the unit 36. Formerly the first assistant mistress was given at 41. According to the proposal in the Bill the limit of that grade is lowered from 41 to 36. After that the grades are arranged so that when we reach a school of from 161 to 200 we have the head teacher and one assistant for every fifty pupils, and the same proportion is maintained throughout for all grades above that. I will explain :In the schools of from 36 to 81 there are two teachers, the head teacher and assistant. In schools of 81 to 120 there are three teachers, the head teacher and two assistants. 2. The next change comes in at 81 instead of 91 ?—Yes. But instead of a pupil-teacher there is another assistant. Schools of from 121 to 160 will have a head teacher and three assistants, and schools from 161 to 200 a head teacher and four assistants. So that as you approach 200 you have a head teacher and an assistant for every 50. That same principle is maintained throughout— that is to say, the subgrades which give the staffing a/c sueli that they allow an extra assistant for every 50 pupils or part of 50. The effect of that will be that (omitting the, schools with one or two teachers) the average number of pupils per teacher in schools of Grade 5 to Grade 8 will vary from 33 to 43. In a school, say, of 325, which will have seven assistant teachers—the average number pei- teacher is about 41. The average number in schools above Grade Bis4B to 43. This grading according to multiples of 50 is adopted in order to make the increase in staffing on some consistent principle. 3. You make provision for the grading of schools which were not graded before?— Yes. 4. Formerly Grade 0 applied to schools with an average attendance of 1 to 15; now it applies only to those of 1 to 8 ?—Yes. 5. Taking, for example, a school of 12 pupils: The teacher received .£72, with £10 house allowance, making it £82 per annum?— Yes. 6. Under the new schedule the teacher of this school will get a salary of £90, increasing by £5 per annum to £120, and also a house allowance of £10. That is a distinct advantage?—l think so. 7. The average then will be nearer the maximum than the minimum? —Probably from £105 to £110. 8. In the case of a school with 22 pupils, formerly the teacher received £130 per annum, with a house allowance of £20 if no house were provided. Under this scheme he will get the same house allowance under the same conditions, and his salary will increase from £120 to £150 by yearly increments of £5 ?—Yes. 9. The average could be taken at £140? —Generally the average salary will depend upon the rate of promotion. The rate of promotion from the lower positions in most cases will be quicker than from the higher positions. In the smaller positions the average will be a little above the mean between the minimum and the maximum—-a little above half-way; but in the higher positions it will in the course of time approach the maximum. 10. When the attendance reaches 36 the head teacher is entitled to an assistant under the new Act?— Yes. 1 I. Under the old Act the teacher was not so entitled until the attendance reached 41 I —Yes. 12. It is here that the important alterations in the grading begin?—l think that is the most important. 13. Is it not true that under the old Act there were five grades between 33 and 90?— Yes. 14. Under the new scheme how many between 36 and 80?— One grade. 15. Will this save the teachers from seeking transfers in order to gain promotion? —It will probably reduce the necessity for transfer due to lowering of grade to one-tenth. Certainly onetenth —I think it may be as low as one-twentieth. 16. For what reason? —In the old scheme there were 166 schools in the grade 41 to 50, and they were often rising above and again falling below 50. The grade was thus changed for a time. In most cases there was no change in salary ; the salary was guarded by the proviso to section 11. Btit this will avoid even the change of grade. 17. They will still be in the same grade all the time? —Yes.

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18. Taking the example of a school with an average of 41 : Formerly the salary was £165, with £20 house allowance. It will be increased to from £180 to £210. What will be about the average for that grade?—l think about £200. 19. In the next grade, with a school of 82 pupils, the salary was £215, with a house allowance of £30. Now the salary will be £210 to £240, with £30 house allowance, say, £15 difference?— Yes. 20. Is it not true that as the salaries increase promotions will be fewer, so that the average salaries will approximate to the maximum! — It will not affect that grade very much, as the number of positions in that grade were only 105 altogether. Therefore the number of candidates for higher positions would not be very large from that. The number would not be likely to be more than fifteen in any year. 21. Now as to staffing: Was a pupil-teacher given when the average attendance reached 91 under the old system?— Yes. 22. Now under the new scheme a second assistant is given at 81, allowing the adults to do less work? —I do not know whether they will do less work. I hope they will be able to do considerably more work when these pupil-teachers go out. 23. In a school of 132 what was the salary? —£235. And the house allowance? —£30. 24. Under the new rate teachers will receive from £240 to £270, with a house allowance of £35 ?_Yes. 25. In a school of 201 the master will begin at £270 and increase to £310?— Yes. 26. And he will receive a house allowance of £40?— Yes. 27. The old rates were £265, with a house allowance of £35? —Yes. 28! What will be the average salary in this grade?— Probably £300—£295 to £300—after six or seven years, when the system becomes steady, or the scheme is in thorough working-order. 29. In the school of 302 the former salary is £290, with a house allowance of £40. The new schedule provides for a house allowance of £45 and a salar\- of from £310 to £340. What would be the average for that?— Call it £330. 30. With regard to tin- next grade, what is the advantage over the old system in respect to masters' salaries: take the master of a school of 502?— That is Grade 9b. I should like to point, out that within the same grade the salary of the teacher does not alter at all, so it does not matter whether you take any one subgrade within a grade. 31. Take the master of a school of 502?— He now gets a salary of £330, together with a house allowance of £50. He would get a salary that began at £340 a year and increased to a maximum of £370 a year by annual increments of £5. 32. That is, an average of £360 with the same allowance in lieu of residence?— Yes, of £360 with the same allowance of £50, where there is no house. 33. How many grades are there now for schools above 600?— Ten. 34. In a school of 601, instead of a salary of £360 the master now begins with £370, rising to £400?— That is so. 35. Coming to the staffing of the schools, under this new scheme the pupil-teachers will gradually disappear and be replaced by assistant teachers? —Yes. 36. How do you intend to keep up the supply of teachers? —Under any circumstances which might happen ? 37. Yes?—lf we can get into the way of supplying teachers as they do now in some other parts of the world, where the teachers are extremely well trained, we shall not need to have either pupilteachers or probationers, but shall admit them from high schools or district high schools straight into the training colleges, so that those in the training colleges will have received a good secondary education before they enter. It is possible to do that when any child in any part of the country can get his secondary education. That is nearly the case at present, but not quite. If, however, we cannot fill up our training colleges from the secondary schools, and find that the supply of teachers is likely to become short, we can have probationers in the schools, who will not be responsible in the way pupil-teachers often are, unfortunately, now—sometimes unavoidably—but who will be there for the two purposes of having their own teaching-powers tested, and of finding whether they have a real inclination, after experience, for the teaching profession. The probationer system will not weaken the staffing of schools, because the schools will be fully staffed with adults independently of any probationers whatever. The probationers will be introduced, if introduced at all, to a certain extent, simply for the sake of giving a supply of teachers. They would then go on to the training colleges as pupil-teachers go on now, if they were, found to be suitable after that period of probation. 38. They will be paid for the services mentioned in accordance with regulations to be made under the Act, which prescribes no special salaries for probationers?— You may not need probationers at all. You may find it necessary only to have them in the schools for a year, and I do not see how you can lay down an order, which may have to be varied according to circumstances, except by regulation. 39. They will not affect the number of trained teachers? —Not at all. 40. Now, as to allotting adult teachers to schools under this scheme : one will be allotted to each class of 40?— Classes do not always divide themselves exactly according to averages. You cannot take a school from the infant class as upwards, divide the number by 6, and say that every class shall be one-sixth of the total. 41. What is the average in large schools? —In large schools the average will be over 40—up to 47 or 48. 42. Am I right in saying that in America they have one teacher to every 47 or 48?— It depends upon what part of America you refer to, whether to the Eastern States, or Southern States,

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or the Western Middle States, or to Western States like California. In Chicago it is about 42 in a large school. That is the average of pupils per teacher. " The schools average 924 in Chicago. They are all large schools. When you take a country with many small schools like Wales, Scotland, Switzerland, Norway, and Sweden, the average number of children per school is lower. In Switzerland the average number of children per school is 115, and the average number per teacher is 43. There are a good number of country schools in Switzerland. The average number of children per school for all our schools is about 70, and the schools of Switzerland are the nearest to our size in that respect. 43. With regard to the staffing of schools, in a school of 152 pupils there were formerly a headmaster, a mistress, junior assistant, and two pupil-teachers—that is to say, three adults and two pupil-teachers?— Yes. 44. Under the new scale you allow a headmaster and four adult assistants?— The subgrade 6b begins at 161, but in ,6a you will not have four adult assistants. There will be three adult assistants instead of two adults and two pupil-teachers. 45. Is there not a mistake in the schedule, then?— Yes, there is a printer's error. In column 6 there should be 2 adults, not 1 adult (as printed), to replace the 2 pupil-teachers in column 5. I ought to have seen the mistake, because the system, which I may have an opportunity of explaining presently, is to substitute an adult for a pupil-teacher. In the Bill as printed there are two pupil-teachers, and there is only one adult substituted. The second salary after 2b-3a, in column 7, ought to be lα. 46. In a school of 502 the former staffing was one headmaster, six assistants, and five pupilteachers? —Yes. 47. Under the new scheme you allow one headmaster and eleven assistants?— Yes. That is what it will be. You can find it by dividing the number by 50, allowing one assistant for each 50 or part of 50. 4(8. Am I right in assuming that the number of teachers will be the same under the new scheme as under the. old, and that all teachers will be trained to their work?— Yes. Instead of one headmaster, six assistants, and five pupil-teachers, there will be one headmaster and eleven adult assistants. 49. Mr. J . Allen.] Will you explain the reason for the subgrades in the first part of the schedule? —It is necessary for one purpose only, to indicate where each additional assistant comes in. 50. To keep it apart from the salary?— Yes. 51. Hon. Mr. Fowlds.] It is also useful in fixing the salary of the assistant?— Yes, to fix the salary at which the new teacher comes in. 52. Mr. J. Allen.] What'is the reason for subgrading the salaries of teachers?— The object was to have only one grading for all teachers. We could have had two gradings, one for head teachers and one for assistants. This makes one grading for all teachers, so that you can at once compare the value of a man's position as assistant or as headmaster, and you know whether you are giving the man promotion or not; and there is no difficulty about his limit of salary, because the limit of salary is the same, and if he is transferred from an assistantship in a certain grade to a headmastership in the same grade his increments will go on, because he is still in the same grade. 53. Is the object of this subgrading of the salary to make provision for the salaries of assistants?— Yes. You have far more than ten grades of assistants, but you can keep the system consistent by introducing subgrades for the purpose of having intermediate salaries for assistants. 54. Column 4 shows that? —Yes. That corresponds with the salaries to be given to the assistants at present in the schools. 55. Will you explain the average attendance?—lt is, in general, the average for a year of the number of children present in any school, excluding all times in which there are less than half, present, and excluding other exceptions made in accordance with the regulations. That is the purpose of what we call clause 2, (b), and 2, (c), of the regulations for the average attendance in schools. 56. So that if a sc?iool had two-thirds of the children present and the others were sick, that would count as an average attendance?—lt would in general; but if the effect were such as to bring down the grade it would not, because the Board would substitute another quarter of the previous year, and if there was evidence of sickness it could do that with any quarter. These regulations have gradually been modified so as to avoid all hardships. 57. What is the objection to making the basis something else than average attendance?— You ask that question of any expert in any other part of the world, and he would tell you he would never dream of making it anything else as a basis of payments, because the roll is an uncertain number. You cannot secure that the roll shall be uniformly purged in every school. The drastic rule they have in some parts of America is to take the pupils off the roll if they are away for three days. That would introduce far more evils than our system, especially in a scattered population. At the present time the Inspectors of the Boards can check—and, in my opinion, do efficiently check —the registers of average attendance. The Inspectors could not be expected to check the registers and the rolls The average attendance of the school will keep the school much more steady as to grade than any roll-number possibly could if it were taken as an indication of the size of the school. The number of children who actually go to school will be a far better indication of the size of the school'than the roll-number. 58. Can you suggest any better method than average attendance?—l believe it is absolutely fair.

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59. Has the Board power of transfer? —Yes, but that has been limited during the last two years by paragraphs (&),. (c), of section 10 of the Act of 1905. If a Committee were unwilling to agree with the Board, the power would be actually taken away. The Bill provides for a real consultation with the Committees, but leaves the final power in the hands of the Board. 60. The Chairman.] Before you pass away from the average attendance I would like to point out that there was a clause in last year's Act dealing with that, and providing that the salary should not be reduced for two years?— That is in the Act of 1905 (section 11, proviso). 61. Is that sufficiently long to prevent hardship?—lf the Board has full power of transfer. 62. As is contained in the new Bill? —Yes. I consider that a most essential portion of the Bill, from the point of view not of policy, but of working. If this scheme is to be workable, we must have clause 12. 63. Mr. J. Allen .] That is to say, this scheme will not work without the power of transfer? — That is so. The roll of the school might vary just in the same way, and more than the average attendance. There are a few teachers who would be careless about the roll-number as there are about purging the roll now. 64. Is there any possibility of any schoolmaster's salary being reduced under this Bill owing to a fall in the school attendance? —That I thought could be done by regulation. lam not quite so sure now that it can be done. 65. Is there any possibility of it under this Bill?— The schools are to be graded under clause 3 in accordance with the provisions of Part I of the First Schedule, and Part I of the First Schedule gives certain grades which are dependent upon average attendance. The average attendance is defined by regulation under the principal Act. Then a regulation for the computation of the average attendance would regulate the grade of the school, and I thought we might avoid hardship by taking the average attendance of three years and paying the salary of the grade on that. 66. Would that be fair to a school rising in numbers? —I said "in general." You know that there are certain regulations now that provide for schools that are rising in numbers or falling, apart from the grading, and there would have to be similar regulations. 67. Does this Bill allow salaries to be reduced owing to a fall in attendance? —I thought it might be regulated by average attendance. 68. The Chairman.] Can it take place under the new scheme?—lt would be misleading if i were to say " Yes " or " No " without any qualifications. 69. Mr. J . Allen.~\ I do not object to the qualifications?— The answer would be " Yes." I thought it might be possible to avoid any hardship by means of regulations similar to the regulations for average attendance, which we have now, but extending the period to three years. I tried to make these regulations, but I am afraid it is not possible to prevent it in every case. I will take one particular school in a mining district. It is quite possible the mines, from one cause or another, might be shut down, and the school might be reduced in a very short time to half its size, or less. The fall in one year might be such that no regulations of the sort I had hinted at would meet the case, and I therefore think it is desirable to put, something in the Bill similar to that which was in section 11 before, so that the Boards, when they knew that they would have to transfer, would have two years to do it in. After trying it I confess that it would be straining the Bill to make a regulation like this, and I think it is desirable to alter subclause (7) of clause 7 in this Bill. 70. It comes back then to transfer?—l have tried the possibility of transfer for several districts —large districts and districts of middle size. Ido not think there would be any difficulty about it, especially considering the immensely smaller number of transfers that would be necessary. Ido not think it would be difficult to make any required transfer in two years, or probably in one year ; but you must allow the Boards reasonable time to transfer. No Board would leave a deserving teacher in a lower position if it could help it. 71. Mr. Sidey.~\ Do I understand, with regard to the grading of schools; that you have fixed the grades in accordance with average attendance?—-The average attendance is the measure cf the size of the school, and the grading indicates the size of the school. 72. How long do you propose to allow a school to remain in its grade: is it three years?— I said, in general, I think it should be graded on three years' average, allowing for extraordinary increase or decrease. They would be graded on the Ist January in each year. 73. The Gazette would show every year the grades of each school?— That is not the way it is done now. The Boards do the grading. They send up in the month of January (or should do it), a tabulated return, No. 1, of all the schools in their district, which is at the same time a claim for the salaries. The Boards do the grading; any mistakes that appear when the returns are checked in our Department are pointed out to them. There is no need to gazette the grades. The Boards' Secretaries send up the returns with the grades and salaries of teachers, and will do the same in future. 74. And they are altered every year?— They are not necessarily altered. 75. They are revised every year?— Yes. They depend upon the previous year's average, but a teacher's salary does not necessarily alter even though the grade is altered. 76. The grade is on the nverage of the previous year?—l suggest it should be on the average of three previous years. In one district there were thirty-five cases pointed out to us in which the schools had fallen in grade owing to epidemics. We found that in the thirty five cases they could be kept up if other quarters' were substituted in accordance with the regulations, and the Board did make the substitutions accordingly. 77. Mr. Biiddn.l I wanted to ask as to whether it was the intention of the Bill to leave the question of promotion to depend on a general application to the Board for transfer or to allow it to be on the old system of application. Ido that in view of subsection (5) of section 12. The 2—l. 13b."

9

1.—13b.

10

schedule provides that a rising salary shall be provided for a grade of school, but there will be circumstances such as the closing of an industry in a district in which the school will rapidly fall or even close by reason of non- or insufficient attendance. In that case, is it the intention of the Bill to give the Board power to transfer the teachers to the first suitable vacancy by merit? —Yes, it puts that proviso in, if they have signified to the Board their desire for transfer, whether they are applicants for that position or not. 78. Mr. llogg.~\ Do you think it would be advisable to make the tables a little more simple than they are?— Simplicity has been aimed at to emphasize the characteristics of the Bill. The tables could have been put in a sheet such as that which I hold in my hand. What I think we should do for the use of Secretaries of Boards, for instance, and for our own use, would be to issue an explanatory table with the salaries actually payable. But the important thing here is to show the grade of salary the teacher is in and to show how he could be transferred from one school to another. If you would look at the schedule you will see that in 9a there is a position with salary of Grade 4—that is, a second assistant with salary of Grade 4. You can at once see what positions of Grade 5 there were open for that teacher. 79. I was wondering whether it would not be best to have in separate columns the grade of the school, the average attendance, the teachers' salaries, where the assistants began and their positions and salaries opposite, so that at a glance you could see the whole thing?—lt would not show then so easily what positions are in the same grade. 80. I must say the schedules are extremely confusing. I dare say the teachers can understand them, but an ordinary reader would not?—l could prepare such a statement as that. That is the form in which I made it out myself at first. But to show the transfers this is the most convenient form. 81. Mr. T. Mackenzie.'] I cannot quite understand the reason for making subgrades in schools where you have no assistants?— There are subgrades of schools and there are subgrades of salaries. Grade 6is the first where there are any subgrades of schools. The grades of salaries are all marked with ordinary arabic figures, and the grades of schools are marked with roman figures consistently all the way through. 82. Mr. Baume. I would like to know whether you find it difficult or impossible to provide for a regular or certain scheme of promotion?—A colonial scheme of promotion? 83. I want to know if the difficulty in the way of the scheme is that you are dealing with Boards instead of a centralised body, or whether you cannot see your way clear, even with the present localised method, to give a comprehensive scheme of promotion ?—There are two or three ways of making schemes of promotion. Two of them I have considered. I will mention the third first. The third is the method of centralisation, but I consider that the success of the school depends upon healthy local control. In Switzerland we find that the schools are a part of the municipal life. If you take away the power of appointment from the local authorities you will destroy local interest. I am strongly opposed to centralisation on that account. There are two other ways. One is that which they have tried to adopt in New 'South Wales, and I see that Victoria has imitated it to a certain extent —or vice verm. That is, that instead of grading the salaries of the teachers, you grade the teachers and attach certain payments to those teachers wherever they happen to be. That is one way of doing it. To avoid that scheme's costing too much you would have to do what they do in New South Wales—limit the number of teachers in one grade. I will take one example of that. Take a teacher in Grade 4in Schedule 2. Part I—it is a very easy case to follow. The head teacher in a school of Grade 4 has the salary of Grade 4. In Grade 7 the first assistant has the salary of Grade 4, and in schools of Grade 9 the second assistant has the salary of Grade 4. You could do this: You could say that as there are 489 positions with the salaries of Grade 4, we will grade the teachers, and we will make 489 teachers of Grade 4; and you could do the same for every other grade. Supposing you did that, then you would have the Boards appoint the best teacher they could get for a particular school; but two of the principal difficulties that present themselves to my mind are—first, the difficulty of assessing the grade of the teacher. The Inspectors are officers of the Board, and have to be, therefore, the grading board or committee for each educational district, and yet the grading would have to be done for the whole Dominion. So that there would have to l>e a Board sitting in each educational district, which would afterwards have to review the matter for the whole of the Dominion and determine which teachers were to be in certain grades. It would therefore be difficult (though the difficulty might not be insuperable) to grade the teachers. The other difficulty is this: that certain districts of the Dominion—possibly where there are the best prospects of promotion, or the best climate, or where the cost of living is lower, but chiefly because of the chance of promotion—would be attractive to teachers, so that the effect would be that the Boards' in those districts would always have their schools staffed right up to the grading which the figure represented, but the other Boards would often have to appoint teachers of a grade lower than that suitable to particular schools. So that the two difficulties are the difficulty of grading, and afterwards that of letting the Boards scramble, so to speak, for the teachers. 84. That could be got over by regulations which the Boards sometimes make. It is regulated by stating that certain positions can be obtained by teachers who have spent a certain time in the country schools?— That would not affect the supply and demand between one Board and another. 85. lam referring to the system administered by each separate Board. T agree with you that there are many difficulties in the'way of any centralised system. The healthy interest evinced by the local authority is a matter of the greatest importance to our educational system. The point is this : whether there is not a possibility of insuring to a greater extent than at present that the highest qualified applicant shall in all cases get the position?—l think there is security in that if Hie Boards havo full power of transfer. I cannot understand any Board systematically putting teachers in unsuitable places. It might now and then happen by accident or otherwise,

11

lii-1*

80. You know there is a feeling of great dissatisfaction on the part of many teachers?—l know there is with some. 87. There is a feeling that promotion does not go as it should? —1 know there are such cases. bB. Is it not possible to overcome the appearance of that by providing that where there are certain applicants for positions, the highest qualified men shall get them? —The teachers put forward a scheme at the annual meeting in Auckland, but the difficulties are very great in carrying such a thing into practice. They said that if a teacher by an assessment of marks got more than four marks more than another teacher the Boards should appoint him in preference. It might be possible that such a teacher might not be suitable for a particular school, and any rule like that, unless it took into account local circumstances, is bound to break down. 1 could give jou examples. 1 know several cases in my own experience when 1 was an Inspector of the Board in iNorth Canterbury. A teacher who had been an engineer was very suitable for a town school, but he had never lived in the country, and was totally unfitted for a country school. Such a teacher might stand four marks higher than others and if there were an automatic system like that proposed the Hoard would have to appoint him to the country school, for which he was unsuited, and the town would suffer a loss, while the country school would not be benefited. 89. That man, unless he had a chance in town, could never hope for promotion 'I —He would have to wait a little longer. Whether he had hope of promotion or not, the first consideration is the school. 90. There have been several schemes put before the Department by conferences of teachers and individual teachers and members. Have you taken these schemes into consideration in framing • this Bill at all? —1 read them all. 1 did not mould it on them. They all mean interfering with the power of local appointment, and i am so thoroughly convinced that that is a healthy condition that I have never suggested to the Minister, or any one, any scheme that would interfere with it. 91. Mr. T. Mackenzie, J Mr. Baume has opened up a very wide aspect with regard to our system of education. Is it not possibly correct that men are required to go through certain positions before being eligible for others? Let us suppose there is a vacancy in one of our large city schools at the present time. The first assistant applies, and influence is possibly brought to bear on Boards and Committees in order that this first assistant may get, the appointment, very much as if a first officer of the Union Steamship Company desired to become captain of the steamer of which he had been first officer. Would it not be possible in your scheme to grade your teachers and schools so as to require that the teachers should go through certain positions before being eligible for others? You might say that a man before he could take Grade 10 must have become a head teacher of a school like Grade 6, or be first assistant in some other before he could take the head-teachership in Grade 8? What is causing this dissatisfaction alluded to is that the first assistant in a large school will obtain a higher position over teachers who have been headmasters in schools of lower grades? —I think it would be possible to do that in regard to headmasters. But to that extent you would tie the hands of the Boards. It seems to me there are much better ways of doing the same thing. One is to leave it open to let the Boards confer among themselves and come to some mutual agreement as to what their policy should be in that respect. If you were careful, you might perhaps do something in that direction without tying the hands of the Boards too much. 1 tried to do that in what I laid before the Teachers' Salaries Commission, right down to the bottom of the scale. lam now convinced it is a mistake to try to do it right down to the bottom, but I believe it would have been possible to make it work out quite well if done at what I call the top. But I think the arrangement could be just as well made by agreement among the Boards themselves as by a statute, and it would have more advantage in that it could be altered if it did not work. I see no particular reason against it. The only question is whether it should be done by the Boards themselves or by a statute. I think the Boards should do it. 92. Mr. Hogg.\ Have you any representations to make respecting the provisions of the Act relating to compulsory attendance? —I think we are very easy about compulsory attendance in New Zealand. 93. Have complaints reached you from Education Boards, or from other sources, that the attendance is very irregular owing to exemptions?—We have had correspondence with regard to it, but not very specific. I think the law relating to school attendance is very liberal and easy. New Zealand is not an easy place to work educationally. Under a uniform law we might be easy in the towns and unduly severe in the country. 94. Have you heard of the action taken in New South Wales by the Government to appoint a Commissioner to deal with this question ?—I believe that they have done so, but I know nothing more specific about it. 95. Do you know the state of affairs in such countries as Germany, Switzerland, France, and even in connection with the London School Board?— The London School Board has an average attendance of only one more unit per cent, than ourselves. There is not much to choose between us and them; but Switzerland has an average attendance of 97"2 per cent., and even that average attendance means counting as absences times when children are allowed to stay away in order to reap the harvest, and so forth, when we should have shut our schools. 96. The reason I ask is this: At the meeting of the Wellington Education Board yesterday it was stated that in New South Wales the compulsory attendance was made without any exemptions whatever, except in cases of illness or where a satisfactory reason could be shown that the child was unable to be present. It was also stated that, as a result of inquiries made by the New South Wales Commissioners, it appeared that in Germany, Switzerland, France, and the London School Board the compulsory attendance was made regular without any particular time off. In New Zealand we are allowing one-fifth of the time—one day in the week the child can be absent— and the complaint is that great advantage is being taken of this, and the children and teachers

1.—13b

12

are suffering from the persistent irregularity of attendance? —That is so. With regard to Switzerland, the absences are divided into absences with excuses and absences without excuse, and the absence with excuse are nine-tenths —only one-tenth being without excuse. In all absences without excuse the parents are reprimanded or punished. Legal excuses are illness of the child, illness of the father or the mother, serious illness of certain other members of the family named, death of certain members of the family, &c. These are the only legal excuses. 97. Under the Act children cannot be legally compelled to attend oftener than four days a week?— That is so. 98. I do not know whether it has been represented to you that parents are taking very great advantage of this legal power to keep their children away from school?—I do not think they are taking very great advantage of it, because our attendance is better than the attendance in Scotland, Wales, and other countries. The law which is lax and is enforced may produce better results than a law which is stringent and not enforced. 99. 2'he Chairman.] Paragraph (d,) of the Second Schedule to the Bill reads, " At least two of the first six assistants in any school must be women." Is this alteration from " three 'to " two " a misprint ? —No. 100. What is the reason for paragraph (d) I —All the salaries are higher, and there is reason for leaving the hands of the Board free to adopt any organization within the limits of the Act considered desirable. The Boards do not organize their schools exactly alike; they vary in their ideas as to what positions are suitable for men, and what are suitable for women, and I think it is absolutely fair to let them have some degree of liberty in organization. 101. Do you think it will" operate to the disadvantage of women teachers? —I do not think it will operate towards the reduction of salaries. I have no strong objection to leaving it at three instead of two, but if you say " three," you tie up the Board as to one more individual member of the staff. 102. Have you been asked by any representative teachers to make that alteration? —No, but it was discussed at the meeting of the Boards in 1906 or 1905. 103. There is a general feeling among female teachers that this alteration will operate to their disadvantage?—Do they mean as to salaries or position? With regard to salaries it will not; with regard to position it may.' But if they go down they will still get a higher salary than they got before. 104. Do you think it should be relegated to the Boards? —It is a question how far you should leave it to the Boards. If you leave the Boards with two positions only to fill in a certain manner, you tie them less than if you leave them with three positions only to fill in a certain manner. The difficulty of filling positions in accordance with the rule was raised at the Conference. 105. Do you know why they should not restore the position of mistress?— Boards staff their schools with different ideas, and some would put the mistress of the girls' department first, some the infant-mistress. They differ as to which is the most important position. Where there is evidently not a clear agreement that one policy is better than another, it is better to leave the matter to the Boards, as they organize the schools. There is not a strong expert opinion that that either position is better than the other. In that case it is better to leave it to the Board. 106. Turning to Grade 8 (76-90) of the old Act, it is said they will benefit little or nothing under the new arrangement :is that so? I refer to teachers in schools varying from 76 to 80. It is said they actually suffer a reduction of £s?—No teachers suffers a reduction of £5, because there is a proviso in the Bill (subclause 2 of clause 7), " That a teacher employed in a public school at the commencement of this Act shall not, so long as he remains in the same position, receive a salary lower than that to which he would have been entitled under the principal Act had this Act not been passed." Tuesday, 4th August, 1908. George Hogben, Inspector-General of Schools, examination continued. (No. 1.) 1. The Chairman.] I want you, Mr. Hogben, to give us some information on the staffing of the schools, comparing the schedule under the new Bill with that under the old Act. Then, as to the staff, say, for a school of Grade Vla?—Under the old Act the staff was one headmaster, two assistants, and two pupil-teachers. 2. What will it be under the new? Hon. Mr. Fowlds: Was it not one assistant? Mr. Hogben: I beg pardon. Yes, one assistant. The arrangement under the new Bill doss not exactly correspond with the arrangement made under the old Act. It most nearly corresponds from 121 to 150. Formerly, the staff was one headmaster, one assistant, and two pupil-teachers. The staff under the new schedule will be one headmaster and three assistants. 3. The Chairman.] Is there anything in the Bill preventing a reduction of the present staff?— There are one or two places where the staff would be reduced. I suggested the insertion of a proviso which has been omitted accidentally. The proviso is as follows: Proviso to clause 5, (1) — " Provided that the staff of any school shall be at least as strong as it would have been under ' The Education Act, 1908.' " 4. Mr. Buddo.] Under the Act as at present in force it would stand for a school of 281 to 330, four assistants. Now, in this schedule just issued it will stand for a school between 251 and 300, three assistants?— That is so at present, until the staffing in column 7 is adopted. That is why I think this clause is necessary. It would provide an additional assistant. Without such a clause, however, such schools might have one additional assistant taken from the additional assistants.

13

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5. That seems a clumsy method. The better way would be to put in a covering clause?— That would be the best way to carry out what is wanted. 6. Mr. J. Allen.] I observe five anomalies in the staffing under this Bill. For instance, a school of 151 to 160 would have a head teacher, an assistant, two pupil-teachers, or two additional assistants. Under the old Act there is a head teacher, two assistant teachers, and two pupil-teachers. So the staff is smaller?— You mean that the number of the staff is smaller? 7. Yes?—-Yes; but when the Act is in full operation there will be two additional assistant teachers instead of the two pupil-teachers. 8. But, even so, it would not be as strong a staff as under the Act?— Yes, stronger, in my opinion. 9. It is not increasing but decreasing the staff. Why should it be decreased? —It is not decreasing the staff. Two pupil-teachers are always considered as not giving more strength than one adult. I would rather have one adult. 10. But the replacing of pupil-teachers Cannot take place for some years to come?— Meanwhile this proviso comes in. 11. I suggest that the staff is decreased —It is not weakened. At all events, 1 do not regard it as a weakness. Two pupil-teachers will be replaced by one adult teacher. 12. There has been a strengthening of the staff previously, but it seems to me that it will not be strengthened at all by this Bill?— You mean to say it will not be strengthened by having for these ten units (151 to 160) one headmaster, one assistant teacher, and two pupil-teachers. You are going to replace two pupil-teachers by one adult. 13. That is misleading. That will not take place tor years to come?—l differ from your opinion about the strengthening of the staff. Pupil-teachers are replaced by adults. That is what is done finally. 14. That may be some way off? —It can be done by regulation as fast as the supply of teachers will permit. 15. We want the Bill. I want to know whether the same thing takes place in the case cf schools of from 281 to 300?-—Yes. 16. And schools of 331 to 350?— Under the present Act those schools have a headmaster, five assistant teachers, and three pupil-teachers; under the Bill they would have one headmaster, four assistant teachers, and three pupil-teachers. 17. Or three additional assistants by-and-by?—Yes. 18. Just the same case as the other?—No, it is not the same case as the other. The difference is this: In the case of the school of 331-350 you will have one headmaster and seven assistants, instead of one headmaster, five assistants, and three pupil-teachers—eight adults instead of what may be considered as equivalent to seven and a half adults. 19. Yes—that is, after a while?—ln the other case —that of a school of 151—160—you will have one headmaster and three assistants, as against one headmaster, two assistants, and two pupilteachers. 20. It is just the same case as the other? —No, no; the staff of the 331-350 school is stronger. Under the present Act you have five assistants and three-pupil-teachers, while under this Bill you will have seven assistants. 21. I do not want to labour the point, but it seems to me to be the same thing—an anomaly? —It is not anomalous. The schools will be very much more strongly staffed. 22. What effect will it have upon the cost if another assistant were given in schools of 281—300? We have never had an estimate of the cost of the whole thing?—lt will cost £950 additional. 23. Generally ?—Yes. 24. All through the colony ? —Yes, all through the colony. 25. That would give the schools an increased staff?— You might put it down at £950 or £1,000. ■ 26. What do you suppose to put a school of 281-300 into Grade VIIIa would generally cost?— That would utterly derange the whole school. I consider that the schools would be far better staffed under the Bill. The additional cost for all schools of 281-300, if placed, in VIIIa, would be £1,320. The additional cost for all schools of 331-350, if graded VIIIb, would be £2,450. I estimate that the total increased cost of the scheme as compared with the present scale will be £75,590. Most of that amount will be absorbed by the increase in the staffing of the schools. 27. Hon. Mr. Fowlds.] Not all?— Most of it. 28. The larger part of it?— Yes. Mr. Hogben (in answer to Mr. J. Allen) : The increase of salary to the present teachers will amount to about £33,000. In the exceptional cases quoted, school staffs would be prevented from being any smaller during the period of transition by the proviso enabling additional teachers to be appointed to bring the schools up to the present standard. 29. Mr. J. Allen.] Is there any possibility of a teacher's salary falling in consequence of a fall in average attendance? —I thought that might be dealt with by regulation, but I find it cannot. I therefore last week suggested an addition to clause 7 of the Bill somewhat to this effect: "If any school at the beginning of any year is placed in Grade 1 or a higher grade, and such school thereafter be reduced in grade, the salary of any teacher who remains in the same position therein shall for two years continue to be paid in the same way as if such school had remained in the same grade: Provided that the school shall be at all times staffed in accordance with the grade or subgrade to which it belongs : Provided, further, that after the expiry of two years any teacher in such school whose salary is reduced to an inferior grade or subgrade shall receive as his salary the maximum salary of the grade or subgrade to which he has been so reduced." Mr. J. Allen: So we shall get that printed, Mr. Chairman? The Chairman: Yes.

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14

Mr. J. Allen: It is a most important clause. When a teacher is appointed to a school, will he have a smaller salary than the one leaving? Hon. Mr. Fowlds: Yes. Mr. T. Mackenzie: He has not had the same experience. Hon. Mr. Fowlds: If the teacher has had the same length of service in the grade the salary would be the same. Mr. J. Allen: In VIIb the headmaster gets under the Bill £.270 to £310. Under the Act the pay begins at £275; under the Bill it begins at £270. lion. Mr. Fowlds: That is to a new teacher coming in—one who lias been promoted. Mr. llogben: But they get the annual increment; and if they begin below the present minimum they rise above the present maximum. Mr. J. Allen: Yes, but perhaps this does not apply to any except a very few cases. Hon. Mr. Fowlds: It applies to Grade 7 schools. Mr. Hogben: The salary would rise to £310. ■ Mr. J. Allen: We admit he gets an increment; but some start lower than at present, and others do not. It is anomalous. lion. Mr. Fowlds: In the case under notice the teacher would get £270 instead of a much smaller salary. What would a teacher who starts at £210 get? Mr. J. Allen: In your Bill a teacher who starts at £210 gets a maximum of £240, which is £10 less. The Bill is anomalous in regard to salaries. Mr. llogben: The anomalies existed before. The anomalies are cleared away by the Bill. What is perfectly regular may- appear to be an anomaly if your standard of comparison is anomalous. A teacher who starts at £270 goes on to £310. Mr. J. Allen: That is all right. What Ido not approve of is the starting at £270. Mr. Hogben: Unless you raise all the salaries still further you must have anomalies if you judge by the present scale. It is only in two or three cases that men start at smaller salaries. Mr. J. Allen: More than three. Mr. Hogben: I think you will only find two or three. The Chairman: In a school of 25 a teacher who has a salary of £130 under the Act starts at £120 under the Bill. Mr. Hogben: But his salary goes on to £150, which is £20 higher than under the Act. That cannot be called an anomaly. Mr. T. Mackenzie: By doing away with the pupil-teacher system, would you not deprive many young people of openings in the country? Sir. llogben: I do not think the Bill will do that. Mr. T. Mackenzie: lam very well satisfied with the Bill. Mr. Sidey: When a teacher has attained a certain salary, what provision is there for the salary being kept up to that figure? Mr. llogben: The amendment to clause 7 handed in just now. The Chairman: Have you got a statement prepared showing the position regarding the district high school? Mr. llogben handed in the following statement : —

Part V. —District High Schools. Staff and Salaries in Secondary Department.

Mr. Hogben (in answer to Mr. Buddo) : The effect might be to lower the salaries of some head teachers of district high schools —that is, in the case of new appointments. Mr. Buddo: The head teacher is receiving more than the services he had given warranted? Mr. Hogben: Some masters give more time to the secondary department than I think they should give. Mr. J. Allen: Are we going into this district-high-school scheme now? The Chairman: I trrink we will hold that over. Wednesday, sth Auodst, 1908. George Hogben, Inspector-General of Schools, examination continued. (No. 1.) The Chairman: I have received several letters from teachers, and I propose to put some questions to Mr. Hogben with a view to getting answers to the letters in the evidence. Mr. Hogben (in answer to the Chairman) : I think 600 is quite large enough for any school. Ido not think it desirable to encourage larger schools. In London schools are not encouraged to go beyond six or seven hundred.

Average Attendance of Secondary Department. Salaries (lajsibi le to Assistants in trie Second; ,ty Department £ 150 to 180 180 to 210 210 to 240 210 to 240 240 to 270 240 to 270 £ £ £ £ £ 12-30 ... 31-70 ... 71-105 ... 106-140 ... 141-175 ... 176-210 ... 135 to 165 165 to 180 165 to 180 180 to 210 180 to 210 135 to 165 135 to 165 165 to 180 165 to 180 135 to 150 135 to 165 135 to 165 150 to 180 150 to 180 135 to 150

15

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1. The Chairman.} In Grade X there is an immediate increase of £10 in addition to an annual increase of £5, while the teachers in Grade IX have no immediate increase?— All teachers get an immediate increase of £5 unless they have already reached the maximum. All are treated alike. There is provision in the Bill to that effect. In Grade IXa the salary of the head teacher is now £320 or £350, while under this Bill it will be £340 to £370. In Grade IXb the salary of the head teacher is now £330 or £340; it will be £340 to £370. In Grade IXc the salary of the head teacher is £340 or £350; it will also be £340 to £370. In Grade Xα the present salary is £360; under the Bill, the headmaster will get £370 to £400. In each case the headmaster will get an increment of £5 a year. 2. Then it is not true that in Grade X an immediate increase of £10 is given?— No. So long as the master remains in the same position there is an annual increment of £5 to the salary he received at the commencement of this Act until his salary reaches the maximum for the grade. All receive an increment of £5 in Grades IX and X. There are only a few in Grade IV who do not receive an increment, and that is because they have already reached the maximum. 3. It is pointed out that in schools of 1,300 the work of the junior assistants would vary considerably, and that some of them have to take large Third or Fourth Standards in large rooms. Would you suggest anything in the way of subgrades to meet that difficulty? —I cannot. Those large schools will be greatly reduced in six or seven years. The tendency in ten years would Ec to a reduction to 600 or 700. A school of 1,300 would have twenty-seven on the staff. At the present moment the headmaster has or can have twenty pupil-teachers. There wuold be twenty-six assistants altogether, and that would be enough. 4. In regard to a district "high school that is in Grade X, the question was asked whether it would not be fair to add to the salary of the head teacher who had a side school to look after as well as his own?— The side school is counted in when the school is graded; he has the benefit of that already. 5. There are very few schools in the colony with more than 1,200? —There is only one school with more than 1,020. 6. lion. Mr. Fowlds.] How many between 600 and 1,000? —Thirteen over 600. 7. The Another question is, do you think a Civil Service man with nine assistants should be paid the same as the head teacher of a large school with nineteen assistants?—l do not believe we ought to have a school so large as this implies; I think the machine is too cumbrous. If, after reaching 600, you are going to increase the salary with the size of the school, you will make it the business of the teachers to try and increase the school. 8. Do the most highly paid assistants get the greatest advance—in a school of 600, say?— There is not only increase of salary to be considered, but there is the number of positions to which persons can be promoted. If you increase the pay of the lower assistants they will not be willing to take charge of country schools. Any promotion is open to them by going into the country, and it is necessary that they should have inducements sufficient to go into the country. 9. The first assistant of si school of 600 will receive £240, rising to £270. Can you make it begin at £270, rising to £290 by annual increments as in Grade X thirteen individuals in the colony come in that last category. If you divide their increase among the other assistants you will only give a small amount of increase to the rest—a few shillings perhaps. Mr. Hogben (in answer to the Chairman): A school of 160 has one more assistant than a school of 81. The extreme top of 6a has one more assistant than a school of 81 which is at the bottom of Grade V. There is an error in line 6a of the schedule in the Bill :" 1 " is printed instead of " 2." Ido not say that there is no anomaly in the Bill. You cannot make a perfect system. We have endeavoured to avoid anomaly, but I will not say that there is no anomaly in the Bill. Tdo not think that the cases mentioned by Mr. Allen are anomalies. They existed before. The state of things before was anomalous. We are now providing one teacher for every 40 until reaching 200. Hitherto it has been one adult teacher or an equivalent (two pupil-teachers) for every 50 up to 200. (In answer to Mr. Hardy): It is utterty essential to make the increments in salary begin at the same time in the cases of all teachers; the Ist of January, is the date named in the Bill. If a teacher is transferred to a lower position : yes, in that case the salary begins at the minimum. Ido not think there is anything in the Bill that will cause friction. A new teacher graded Iβ, 2a begins at a minimum of £105 in Subgrade Iβ and goes on to a maximum in Subgrade 2a of £135. His salary increases £5 a year until it reaches the maximum. In regard to the definition of the part-time* schools the Bill does not alter the law. In a school of 660 there would be one headmaster and fourteen assistants. In such a school there would be an infants' department attached, with an attendance of, say, 195 in the preparatory classes ; but that infants' department would include also in Standard I, say, 80; making a total of 275, with five assistants. That would leave you one headmaster and nine assistants for a little less than 400 children : and you could easily give the boys' side and the girls' side one teacher for each class, Standards V and VI being grouped together. There would be four classes on each side, and nine assistants—one assistant to spare, who could be put into the infant department, making six assistants there. So that you could still have separate boys' and girls' departments in a school of 660; but personally I should not organize the school in that way; I should prefer to strengthen the infant department still further. 10. Mr. Hardy, ,] It is desirable to make the provisoes and exceptions as few as possible, and that we should have a scale in which all certificated teachers are treated alike. That ought to be regulated by the amount of work done?— There are many provisoes, and the object is to prevent the school or the staff from suffering. 11. The work of the teachers may be increased? —It is not increased now. 12. Are there not more provisoes and many more new proposals than formerly?— There are more in the Bill, but there will be less in the regulations.

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Hon. Mr. Fowlds (in answer to Mr. Hogg): The Native teachers would be in the same position as the other teachers. Mr. Hogben (in answer to Mr. Sidey): I have said that I am opposed to centralisation. 13. Mr. Sidey. Do you not think that the best way would bo to enlarge the power of the School Committees?—lt depends what you mean. Are you going to provide each Committee with an expert officer like an Inspector? And how can a School Committee exercise the power of transfer? 14. That could be done between the Committee and the central authority?— The Committees are in a better position than they were originally under the Act of 1877. Formerly a Board might send the names of fifty candidates to a Committee without indicating any order of preference; but now the Board has to put in order the names of those candidates it considers qualified for the position. So the Board has now to indicate to the Committee what its intention is. Mr. Hogben (in answer to Mr. T. Mackenzie) : I do not think the name "monitor " is better than "probationer." A monitor is one who looks after children a little younger than himself; a probationer is one who has had two or three years in a secondary school, and has declared his intention to become a teacher, and is put into a school in order to prove his capacity. 15. Mr. T. Mackenzie. But the term is associated with the odium of persons who are being reformed ?—I do not see that there is anything in that. The term is used in connection with schools, hospitals, and so forth, all over the world. I do not see that any great harm would be done by leaving subclause (2) of clause 5 to regulation ; but it is useful to state a maximum time of employment. The order of the subsections was the law draftsman's order. T think it is the right order. 16. What objection would there be to a Board reducing the list of six candidates to three, and then giving the Committee the power to select? —Tt would oppose a barrier against transfers. 17. Would not the School Committees be likely to exercise greatest judgment in selecting a teacher, seeing that they have children of their own to be instructed in the school? —That would be a source of strength in certain cases, and also a source of weakness. The Board has an interest in keeping the whole system under its control in good working-order, and it has means of knowing better than any Committee the teachers best suited for any particular school. Ido not see how any Committee could have that knowledge. In regard to canvassing on behalf of applicants, 1 believe it would be easier to get at Committees than it would be to get at the Board. Ido not think it would be a strange thing for candidates to get at Committees on account of the latter having an interest in the children. It would be the common experience of all parochialism. The Committee Rave not the knowledge to enable them to choose the best teachers. In nine cases out of ten fhe men who get on Committees have not the knowledge and experience to advise. They may have the ability, but not the knowledge. 18. The Board might send on four names to the Committee, stating length of service in each case and other qualifications, and then leave it to the Committee to make a selection from the four persons nominated? —That takes away from the Board the power of appointment. The Board would have only the power of an advisory committee. Mr. Hogben (in answer to Mr. Buddo): To limit the number nominated by the Board and give the Committee the power of final selection would practically make the Board nearly an advisory committee. The power to make a transfer must imply the power to control appointments. All that the Board is compelled to do is to take into consideration the recommendation of the Committee. In regard to reduction of staff, I have handed in two amending clauses, one of which safeguards the staff, and the other the salaries. (In answer to the Chairman): I have been informed on good authority that a Board in one case sent in six names to a Committee, of persons regarded as most suitable, and the Committee, for personal reasons, recommended the third person in the list for appointment. That candidate was not so suitable as the first and second in the list, but he was personally known to a good many people in the place, and in order to make sure that the first candidate in the list should not be appointed, the Committee recommended as their second candidate the sixth in the list. If it had appointed the latter the Board would have stultified itself, and yet that was the only alternative left. I think you may rely on the common-sense of Committees generally as against the feeling of one or two Committees. My own feeling in regard to appointments is to leave the power of appointment in the hands of the Boards. 19. The Chairman.~\ What is your objection to a clause compelling a register of teachers in each district to be kept on certain lines, showing special fitness and length of teaching? So many marks might be awarded to each teacher for each special feature, and every year the list might be revised, so that the Board-should be required to put on the list only the names of such teachers as were approximately equal?— All such proposals come to the same thing. The creation of a third body would not avoid, but create, friction. If it is only to give advice, it would have only the same information that the Boards and the Department have now—the Boards for the purpose of making appointments, and the Department for the purpose of giving a certificate. The only people really capable of giving information are the Inspectors. If you have a triangular method of appointment you will make great friction. 20. Is there any reason why a skeleton scheme of appointment should not be issued to guide the Boards?—ln what way? 21. On the lines T have mentioned, so that the Boards may be guided by it, and have a uniform system of appointment?— They are guided now on information given by the Inspectors. T do not see where the information can come from except from the Inspectors. You might have snch a scheme for the higher positions, but if you attempted it generally you would tie the hands of the Board.

17

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22. Mr. Buddo.] How would it affect teachers who have special qualifications for mechanics, science, and woodwork?—lf certain teachers were graded for one kind of position they would be placed, say, in Grade A. You would have to grade all such teachers in the same Grade A, and not, in grading, take into account any of those special characteristics that might fit a teacher for a particular school, thus compelling a Board to appoint a teacher for a country school who was really fitted for a town school, or vice versa. 23. Hon. Mr. Fowlds.] Can you give us the average salaries of teachers under the present system as compared with the average proposed in the Bill, for men and women?— The average salary of all teachers in all New Zealand schools (excepting Grade 0) under the present scale is £149 'is. 7d. ; by the Bill the salaries of these teachers will be increased to an average of £160 16s. 5d., an increase averaging £11 12s. 10d. There will be added 723 new teachers, and all teachers, new and old, will receive on an average a salary of £155 17s. 4d. Thursday, 6th August, 1908. George Hogbjsn, Inspector-General of Schools, examination continued. (No. 1.) Mr. /Lor/ben (in answer to questions on Clause 13): This clause was simply carrying out the same idea as clause 11, which defined "Maoris" as including half-castes and more than halfcastes. The effect of that was. to place PJuropeans and Maoris exactly on the same footing as far as attendance was concerned. Clause 14 was to remove an omission in the principal Act, which did not give any definition of a technical school. Local bodies had power to subsidise technical schools and secondary schools, but in one case, owing to the want of a definition, it was found that an intended gnnt of £400 could not be given. Referring to clause 15, Mr. Hogben said that associated classes were held in various parts of the Dominion, and with one exception these classes had been formed by associations consisting of people who were admitted by payment of an annual subscription of ss. or upwards. These associations were established for the purpose of promoting technical instruction, and they joined with the Education Board, or'other controlling authority, in forming classes. It was probable that they were in order in so doing, but some doubt had been raised as to the legal position. The clause was inserted to bring the law into accord with the practice. Clause 16 was an amendment of the previous Act, and was really one giving power to the controlling authority to carry on the classes. If the promoters of associated classes withdrew, the Act gave the Department no power to pay capitation on the classes, even if continued as special classes. The clause gave the controlling authority power to continue the classes as special classes. If it found it impossible to carry the classes on, it could close them the next day; but it could receive the capitation that had already accrued. In regard to clause 17, it was found that the inducement for earning on advanced classes for technical instruction was hardly sufficient. The number of pupils in the advanced classes was small, and the capitation was small. It was thought that the capitation would be enough for all'classes taken together if the Board could draw upon the capitation in the more elementary classes to meet the higher cost of the advanced classes. There was some doubt, however, as to whether it was really sufficient. Some of the elementary classes undoubtedly had much more money than they needed. The only way to adjust it was to give the elementary classes no more than they required, and to devote an additional amount to the advanced classes. On clause 18 the principal Act required that all information be sent with the application for recognition of a class. It required that information as to the qualifications of the instructor be sent, also that the programme and everything else necessary for the carrying-on of the class be forwarded each year. By the present Bill if such information accompanied the application for recognition, that would be sufficient. 1. Mr. Buddo. Some little difficulty has been experienced in receiving the grants. I want to know if the clause is likely to do away with that. Teachers are kept waiting for their salaries three months. Is this owing to any difficulty in getting the Audit Department to recognise that the claims are due?--This has been one of the causes of delay. But meanwhile the Boards might have got a very considerable portion of the capitation as interim payments, if they had applied for it, as they had been informed they might. Mr. Hogben, referring to clause 19, said it made the law more definite; it did not alter the intention of the principal Act. Mr. Hogben, examined by Mr. Buddo on clause 10, the consideration of which had been postponed : The capitation paid to secondary schools for free pupils under the present Act is from £4 to £10 15s. There will be a slight increase in the amounts payable to the better-endowed schools, and a large increase to the poorly endowed schools. Rangiora comes under paragraph (d) because its income is not over £5 per head of the roll. The deficiency below £5 is £4 14s. 2d. Nine-tenths of that is £4 4s. 9d. The school will receive capitation at the rate of £8 plus £4 4s. 9d., or, altogether, £12 4s. 9d. per pupil. It now receives £10 15s. per pupil. The income from endowments being ss. 10d. a head, its total income per head will be £12 10s. 7d. per pupil. 2. Mr. J. Allen.] What do you estimate the increase at by this alteration?—£l,9oo. Mr. Hogben (in answer to questions on the First Schedule by Mr. Allen): To limit Grade 4 to an average attendance of seventy-five would be to increase the cost by £3,625. To make Grade 5 76-90 would mean an increased cost of £14,200 more, and Grade 6a at 91-150 would increase the cost still further by £1,300; altogether these three changes would increase the cost by £19,125. To put Grade VIIIa at 281-300 would upset the whole scheme. From 200 every increment of 50 pupils would give another assistant. It would be much better, no doubt, to make 3—l. 13b.

1.—13b.

18

the unit—that is, the number of children per teacher — smaller ; but it' you made it 45 instead of 50, you would nearly double the whole cost. To make Grade VIIIa 281-300 would give an additional cost of £1,290 without the consequential changes, which would be still more expensive. Altogether, the changes proposed would cost more than £20,000 per annum. (In answer to Mr. Hogg): The work of the headmaster in a small school would be lightened by grouping the classes. (In answer to Mr. Mackenzie, on Part V of the Second Schedule, relating to district high schools) : They were getting teachers to take up secondary work in the secondary departments with between 20 and 50 pupils, but he quite admitted the secondary work was not so good as it should be. The average salary of district-high-school assistants was £178 under the Bill; the average under the present scale was £169: there was an increase of £9. He should like to see a substantial increase of the salaries of all teachers oxcept perhaps the headmasters of large schools. The salaries of male assistants in the secondary schools (exclusive of those in the four centres) was £180, practically nearly the same as those of the district-high-school assistants. In his opinion, if they wanted good secondary education—and they all ought to desire it—they must raise the salaries of teachers in the secondary schools and district high schools. All those assistants ought to be paid more than they are receiving now. The average salary of all women assistants in the secondary schools of the colony is £151 (omitting those in the four centres), and of all assistants, men and women, £160; the average salary of the assistants in the district high schools under the Bill would be £178. He would not recommend an increase in the salaries of the district-high-school teachers, unless a similar increase were made in the salaries of the secondary-school teachers. It wowld simply attract the assistants from the secondary schools to the district high schools; nothing would be gained by that. 3. Mr. T. Mackenzie] Do not the district high schools give the only chance for many children to get on a level with children in the more densely populated centres ? Special efforts made by Boards to get country children a higher quality of instruction do not secure it with the present salaries?—l think you would get it if you made the salaries higher all round. You will get a better average salary under the Bill. Mr. T. Mackenzie: The average has nothing to do with it. We cannot get the quality of teaching. 4. Mr. J . Allen.] If nearly half the high schools in the colony have an average attendance of under 30 or about 30, and if every fresh appointment made in these schools involves a fall in salary, do you not think that they are not treated as they ought to be treated ?—No. If under 20 there is a big increase in the salary. It begins at £150. 5. Mr. T. Mackenzie.] Take a fresh appointment in a school of 17?— The salary begins at £150, and goes on by increments of £5 to £180. 6. Mr. J. Allen. J In schools of 31-70, what is the lowest they start at under the Act?—£l9o. 7. What is the lowest under the Bill?—£180. They start at £10 less, and go on to £20 more. 8. What is the reason for starting them at £10 less?— All the teachers in the colony are graded alike. 9. Is the position to be worth £10 less for the sake of consistency? —It is not worth £10 less; it is worth £10 more; the average salary is £200. If you are not going to grade the teachers consistently the principle of the Bill will be destroyed. I cannot recommend an increase in the commencing salary without altering the whole of the schedule. In 100-140, Grade 5, there is a reduction at the starting-point of £20. The average of that grade is £230. My opinion is that all the salaries should be higher. 10. Mr. Hardy.] I notice that you are not increasing the salaries of Inspectors and other Board officers? —The credit balances of the Boards have increased enormously during the last few years. 11. Have (the credit balances not increased by starving the work?— That is not tkue generally. Hon. Mr. Fowhh: In any case, we do not deal with those salaries, but the Boards of Education do. Mr. Hogben (in answer to Mr. Hardy) said the headmasters of large district high schools had their allowances reduced. They would get £480 a year, including house allowance, and he thought that as compared with other salaries that was high enough. If the schools and secondary departments were large, separate secondary schools should be established. The headmaster who had a primary school of 700 had quite enough to look after. He (Mr. Hogben) would aboilsh the connection between large primary schools and secondary departments. Primary schools of over 700 and eeoondarv departments of 140 or 150 should not be linked together. It would be a very exceptional mill) who could properly look after both. 12. Mr. Hardy.] But there are exceptional men in the colony?— Yes, but we should not make schools for that class. We could not expect generally to get men like that. 13. The head teacher in these large schools is really getting the Irishman's rise?—He is getting £480 ; and present holders are guarded. Mr. Hogben (in answer to Mr. Allen, and referring to note (a) ) said the head teacher of a district high school started at the minimum of a grade higher (£3O higher) than if he was not headmaster of a district high school. Hon. Mr. Fowlds: Suppose a school of the 7th grade, where the teacher is getting £310, in made a district high school, he would start at the maximum of Grade 8.

19

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Mr. J . Allen: Then he gets no increase. Hon. Mr. Fowlds: Oh, yes! His school is reckoned a grade higher. Mr. J. Allen: Will you make that clear in the Bill? Hon. Mr. Fowlds: I do not think there is any doubt about it. Mr. Hogben: I do not see it in that way. The Chairman: It is open to two interpretations. Hon. Mr. Fowlds: I think that is what it means. Ido not want to commit myself. 1 will look into that. My own feeling is that it is the right thing to do. The idea is that his school is a grade higher. Mr. J . Allen,: There is no alteration in the Third Schedule. Hon. Mr. Fowlds: The house allowance increases by more frequent rises of £5 instead of by a few rises of ,£10; the minimum and maximum are the same. William Foster, Secretary to the Educational Institute, examined. (No. 2.) Witness said he appeared before the Committee on behalf of the executive and of members of the Institute, of whom there were over two thousand. He congratulated the Minister oh having introduced a Bill whose provisions attempted to solve some of the difficulties in our national system of education. One step in advance which the executive thought admirable was the elimination of the pupil-teacher system, which would strengthen the staff and make for greater efficiency. Another point in the Bill of importance was that annual increments were to be made to teachers' salaries, which would have the effect of steadying teachers in a position and would give them a feeling of hope. The introduction of an assistant when the average of a school reached thirty-six pupils was also a good feature in the Bill. There were alterations in the salary grades which the executive thought were very commendable, and they were pleased that the Bill recognised the hardships of the teachers of the smaller schools and took steps to ameliorate them. He had one or two suggestions to offer. His first suggestion was in relation to Grade 5. He suggested that in schools of 81 to J 20 the assistant which it is proposed to substitute for a pupil-teacher be substituted at once, as usually in schools of this size the pupil-teacher had to take two standard classes. In regard to the increments in salaries, he had been asked to point out that some of the teachers would have to wait seventeen months before they received an increment —those appointed in July. The Institute suggested that the increments should be granted on the 31st December following the date of appointment. If this were conceded no one would serve more than twelve months without receiving an increment. Referring to section 7of clause 7, he wished to know whether the present regulations governing the reduction would remain in force and govern that Bill. Hon. Mr. Fowlds: There would be no reduction. George Macmohran, representing the New Zealand Educational Institute, examined. (No. 3.) Witness remarked upon the fewness of the boys who went to the teaching profession. In his twenty-five years' experience as headmaster of the Terrace School only one boy went direct to teaching. Out of forty or fifty pupil-teachers in all that time only one male came to him. In the past three and a half years not one lad had left him to go to teaching, while in the same time as many as ten had left him to go into various branches of the Civil Service. Amongst the lads were several of great promise, whom he should have liked to begin life in the schools. The pupil-teacher in the first four years received £160, or an average of £40 per annum; the Post and Telegraph cadet in the first" four years received £290, or an average of £72. He could not avoid the conclusion that if they were to have good teachers they must make the profession more attractive during the period of apprenticeship. .The Chairman: Taking the Bill as a whole, you approve of it? Witness: Undoubtedly. The Chairman: Do you confirm what the previous witness said? Witness: Yes. I agree entirely with it. i John Cauuhi.ey, Assistant at the Training College, examined. (No. 4.) Witness deposed that he had read the proposals made in the Bill, and he considered that as a ■whole the Bill brought about a number of great improvements. It would strengthen the weak schools, and the additions to salary were put in the right places, where most needed. While approving of the principle of the increments, he thought it would take too long a time to get a total increment of £30. That amount in six years was not sufficient to meet the needs of the situation. He would like to point out that when a teacher left a school to take up a position in another school his removal expenses, if he were a married man, would amount to the total annual increment in his salary for the next three years, so that in three years he would be financially exactly in the same position as he was in when he left the previous position. In other Departments of the public service the removal expenses were paid. He suggested three increments of £10 instead of six increments of £5. The salaries of teachers were far too low, and the amount of the increases did not go so far as they should. In support of this contention he put in the following statement: —

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20

Comparison of Range of Salaries in Grades and of Annual Increments, omitting Pupil-teachers and Cadets.

___________ I I ; ___ Note.—(l.) Head teachers receive an increment of £5 in house allowance when promoted to a higher grade. (2.) Teachers' salaries quoted above include house allowance. He (witness) thought it would be clearly seen from the table he had submitted that teachers' salaries were very considerably lower than those paid in the other public services; and, although the teachers welcomed the proposed reforms, they thought it necessary to place before the Committee the position in which they stood. They were not making any request for such salaries as were paid in the other services. He would emphasize this point, however : a great deal was necessary to be done in order to put the teaching profession in a proper position. What the teachers wanted was a salary that would enable the kind of men the Government wanted to live in the way they should live. Teachers were not able to make money in other ways. Mr. T. Mackenzie: Some of them do. Witness: Few of them. Mr. T. Mackenzie: Some of them make as much as their salary. Witness further stated that teachers had no limit to their hours. £80,000 had been granted in a lump to the Railway service. In one division 1,500 railway clerks had an increment yearly of between £15,000 and £20,000. The proposed increment to the teachers was not so much as the country could afford under the circumstances. The Chairman (to Mr. Foster): Is this all you wish to bring before us? Mr. Foster: Yes. Approximate Cost of Paper : Preparation, not given ; printing (1.500 copies). £10 4r.

Authority : John Mackay. Government Printer, Wellington -1908

Price 9d.

Teachers. Railway Clerks. Post and Telegraph Clerks. Public Service, Second Division, Clerks. Grade Salary Increment 1 £100-£130 6 of £5 9 I £110-£180 Cadets 7 of £10 ) 8 7 £190--£220 £120-£220 3 of £10 4 of £15, and 4 of £10 I I I 8 £100-£160. 4 of £15. , Grade Salary Incremen' 2 £135-£165 6 of £5 7 £170-£200. 3 of £10. Grade Salary Increment 3 £17O-£2(!O 6 of £5 7 6 £235-£250 £200-£260 lof£15 4 of £15 6 £210-£250 4 of £10 Grade Salary Increment 4 £205-£235 6 of £5 6 5 £260-£300 £275-£315 2*of £15, and 1 of £10 j 2 of £15, and 1 of £10 5 £265-£300. 1 of £15, and 2 of £10. Grade Salary Increment 5 £240-£270 6 of £5 5 4 £315-£35b £330-£370 2 of £15, and 1 of £10 £15, and 1 of £10 4 £315-£350. 2 of £10, and 1 of £15. Grade Salary Increment 6 £275-£305 6 of £5 4 3 £370-£400 £385-£425 2 of £15 2 of £20 3 £365-£400. 2 of £10, and 1 of £15. Grade Salary Incremfiiit 7 £310-£330 8 of £5 3 2 £425-£500 £440~£475 1 of £15, and 3 of £20 %l of £20, and I of £15 2 £420-£450. 2 of £15. Grade Salary Increment 8 £355-£385 6 of £5 2 l(o) £520-£575 £500-£525 1 of £15, and 2 of £20 1 of £20, and 1 of £15 1 £470-£500. 2 of £15. Grade Salary Increment 9 £390-£420 6 of £5 1 1(6) £600-£650 £550-£600 2 of £25 2 of £25 Grade Salary Increment 10 £420-£450 6 of £5