I.—2b

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out that the Maoris themselves have lost that primitive feeling which facilitated the distribution : I would now ask you how it is to be distributed properly and proportionately among the Maoris now that the old feeling has disappeared ?—All I can say is that if I were a person interested either on behalf of the Government, or as a representative man, and had to distribute money to the Natives, I would keep possession of it until the Maoris had arranged among themselves their shares. 608. Now, I pass to another phase of the same question, and I would ask you whether, in all cases, you think it possible to cause this assemblage of the Natives to be made ?—Practically, I think you would not get them altogether, perhaps not nine out of every ten ; but if all had notice I think they would be content. 609. What proportion when assembled would you be content to allow to act ? —I should not make any arbitrary figures at all. Very likely there would be a number of letters come in ; perhaps some would send representatives. You cannot put down any arbitrary rule for cases of that sort. 610. Then, would it not be possible that, in some cases, a very small proportion of the owners would act in this way, and receive the money? —I think not, if you had a judicious officer ;if he would decline to proceed when there were few people present. You would indeed have to leave much to his discretion. It could be done. 611. Then, you would really leave it in the discretion of an officer to proceed or not: whether he be satisfied with the number present or not ?—I think I would. I should prefer, if it were not for the expense, that this officer should be the Court, and that the whole thing, if possible, should be done in the presence of the Court. But the practical difficulties are so great, arising from delay and the uncertainty when the Court would sit. If you had Courts periodically—say, on the 21st of June at Taupo, the 21st of October at Taranaki, the 21st of May at Gisborne, and so on —a great many difficulties would be remedied. Then, I would say, let all these moneys be paid into the Court; let the Court decide all these questions as to the sufficiency of the attendance and so on. 612. Do you think it possible that the Court could undertake this duty completely—that is to say by itself—without in some cases having to do it through officers ? —lt would, no doubt, add to its labours; there would be a certain amount of friction about it; but, if you think that you will ever elaborate a system that will transfer the land of a country from one race to another without some friction, and risk of failing to achieve perfect justice, then I think you seek for that which you will never find. 613. I heartily agree with that, but it was not in respect of that I put my question : it was more with the view to ascertain whether, in your opinion, the Court would be able to do the work ?— It must do the beso it can. 614. Those blocks which are to be settled this way would be of all sizes : might there not be the same friction in the case of one acre as ten thousand acres: many of them would be small blocks ? —I made a return, I forget now in what year, of ~the number of blocks under five acres, under one hundred acres, and under five hundred acres, and so on, and I was astonished to see what a large proportion the small blocks bore to the big ones. 615. We have a return now which shows that the number of blocks passed through the Native Land Court amount to something over four thousand : then, the number of blocks in which the Natives would be disposed to sell or lease being so large is it possible that the Court would have time to undertake the duty which you have suggested. ? —Not unless you greatly enlarge it. I merely mention the Court as the best authority or the officer which I should prefer. But, although I am in the presence of this Committee, I must say that the House of Eepresentatives has been so parsimonious in its treatment of the Native Land Court that I am afraid an entirely efficient establishment is something we can never hope for. 616. Then, if I understand you, you say this : that, in your opinion, unless the present establishment shall be greatly increased, the Court could not hope to do this duty completely ? —I am afraid it could not do it with its present staff. 617. Then, assuming that to be so, that an officer or officers are appointed for the purpose, do you or do you not think that it would be a dangerous power to leave in the hands of an officer—that of ■deciding whether there are sufficient owners present to justify his disbursement of these moneys ? —There is not, it appears to mo, much risk about it, or at all events very little. Supposing your local officer to be the Resident Magistrate, for instance, he" would look to it that notices were sent out that on a certain day the money would be divided. When it was known that on that certain day the money was to bo divided, the Natives, you would find, will be there. If, on the other hand, it became known that there was to be an appeal to the Committee to upset all that had been done, some people would stop away on purpose.

Wednesday, 2nd September, 1885. Mr. P. D. Penton : examination continued. 618. Hon. Mr. Bryca.~\ Towards the close of your evidence yesterday you were good enough Tfo give a very graphic description of a change that has come over the Maoris in the manner of receiving payment for their land; I want now to bring out two points in connection with what you have described. I will put my questions with a view to elicit them, but perhaps you would be able to describe what I mean without putting these questions. Briefly, I want to know—(l.) When that change began to come about ? (2.) What brought it about ? I could of course put questions to bring the answers out,"lbut if you see my meaning it is very much better that you should give the description yourself ?—You are'&peaking with reference to the disposition of the money ? 619. Yes. —A change has come over the Maoris in the way of receiving these payments, and I may tell you, furtherj that I dwell on this point because I see that a great difficulty is to arise, whatever system we may adopt, from the disbursement of this money ?—I do not think I can say