37

I.—2b

exactly the date when it commenced. My knowledge of any change in the old feeling of honour among the chiefs, which I described yesterday, did not come to me until some years after the division of that money had taken place. The knowledge of the change came tome at a subsequent period. 620. May we assume that this feeling of honour rendered the disposition of the money easier ? —I should say so. 621. Did it exist generally previous to the year 1862 ?—Yes. 622. In other words, it existed during the prevalance of the system of purchase under the "pre-emptive right of the Grown"?— Yes; but in this case the principle post hocpropter hoc does not apply at all. Ido not think it was the system of purchase that caused the difference. I think it was the mode of ascertaining the title. Previously to the time you speak of—it does not matter about the date, 1862 or 1863 will do as well as 1865—the owners of land were not known. It depended upon the experience and skill of Sir Donald McLean and his officers to find out who were the proper people to deal with ; the men he dealt with were the Native chiefs. 623. Do I understand you to say that Sir Donald McLean took the signatures of the chiefs for the purchases ? —I should not like to answer that question in that general way. I had a great many purchase deeds produced before me as Judge of the Native Land Court; some had only two or three signatures, .some had a great many. I apprehend the system, so far as I could be a witness of it, was this: that he (Sir Donald McLean) talked to and negotiated with the chiefs; then, as a rule, the chiefs would tell their people what he had been saying to them and what they were going to do. Afterwards, I think it very likely, having made arrangements with the chiefs, he would get as many people to sign as possible. I may mention a case because it will deelire my mind on the subject better than I could do it now, as the question came before me in my judicial capacity. It was the case of Heremaia Mautai in the other Island. The objection to the deed was made by a lawyer, and there was a lawyer on the other side ; that is, the point was argued by two lawyers with very considerable ability. I think, if I remember rightly, it was Captain Symonds's deed. The deed purported to invest the land in Colonel Wakefield on behalf of the New Zealand Company. The point was, that Heremaia not having signed the deed was not bound by it. I gave a decision upon it. I would rather refer you to that decision. It is in print. You will get from that better than I can give it to you the views I have upon the subject of this question. 624. Would you mind saying whether your decision upheld the contention of the lawyer or overruled it ?—I overruled it. 625. Nevertheless we may assume that, whatever the reasons were, the fact is that the disbursements of money for the purchase of their land among the Maoris was easier under the preemptive system of purchase by the Crown than it is likely to be now under the present system ?— No doubt; but I must qualify that in this way :if you persevere in ascertaining the title and discovering the owners of the land, and give them a certificate of title, the difficulties the Crown will then experience will be precisely the same as the private purchaser would experience. It was easy in those early times because many of the persons who were to receive the money were not known at all; generally only the chiefs were recognized and they had all the difficulty of dividing the money among the others. 626. After the pre-emptive right of the Crown was waived by law, as you described yesterday, private purchasers commenced operations ; when did private purchases commence? —In 1865. 627. In your opinion, did the efforts made by private people to purchase bring about that altered state of feeling on the part of the Maoris in reference to making the disbursement of payment difficult ? You see lam now coming to the second part of my view ? —Yes, I think it was so ; I think it must be so, until you can invent some system (which I look upon as impossible) by which you can define the interests of owners, that is, their proportions of the money. It will be impossible to do this by a European Court. 628 Then, after this time, whenever the Crown desired to purchase land from the Maori, they had to do so in competition with private individuals? —It was so, but, if I remember right, the period at which the system of land-purchase operations, which had died out—" dried up" was the phrase for it used in Parliament —a very expressive phrase, I thought—recommenced did not arrive until Sir Donald McLean's Government. 629. Was that about 1870? —Yes; from 1865 to 1870 the Crown was not purchasing at all. 630. Not actively?— Not actively. I remember when Sir Donald McLean came into the Government, with Mr. Fox, I think, and some others, he came to me and said, "We are going to have a Public Works Act, or we are going to have public works." He then said, " Will you draw me a clause that will protect us when we want to buy lands alongside the railway?" He meant, I believe, to protect him from competition. I drew up the clause. It was put into the Act with some alterations, which I saw afterwards. I did not know that it was altered at the time, but it was altered. Then the purchasing operations on the part of the Crown commenced actively. Agents were sent all over the country again. 631. That system of purchase by the Crown must have been, may we presume so, very different from the former system under pre-emptive right ?—Yes. 632. Did that system tend, in your opinion, to increase the difficulty of satisfactorily disbursing the payments as compared with the former system under pre-emptive right ?—No doubt; it could not be otherwise. I apprehend the difficulty the Crown would have would be as great as that of the private purchaser. I speak with some deference in the presence of Captain Mair, who has had a great deal of experience in the matter of paying money to Natives. 633. You told us that you understood the object of the clause which you drew up to be " to protect the Government in acquiring lands near the railway"?—lt was so stated to me by Sir Donald McLean. I believe that I put in a preamble to that effect. 634. Was that used afterwards in a more extended sense ?—Yes.