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590. Would you give the local Committee powers to dispose of money ?—No ; I would not let them touch it. 590 a. Who should dispose of the money ? —The owners of the land. 591. Who would divide it?— You come now to a practical difficulty. I should like to see the money all divided in the presence of the Court. The objection to that is that you put a hardship on Europeans ; but if European purchasers had some one, properly authorized as an officer, to whom they could go and pay the money, so that they would be free from further responsibility, they would, be saved a great deal of trouble. In my opinion, the tribe who are owners of the land ought, in case of purchase, to be assembled when the money is to be paid. The absence of considerable numbers of the owners, and the necessity of getting a signature here and there, have been the source of great mischief in the past, especially since the passing of the Act of 1873. 592. Is not that practice still in existence? —I do not think anything is in existence: everything is stopped, I think. 593. But the purchase of Native lands is not stopped?— Not by lav/; but practically it has ceased. We have such a bad name in the colonies and in England that the money which was flowing into this colony is afc an end. 594. What was the cause of that ?—The interference of Government; the difficulties that have been placed in the way of the acquisition of land ; the expense, the loss, the trouble, the distress and misery connected with it. 595. These causes, you think, have done a great deal of mischief in stopping the flow of money ?—I cannot speak ■of this province; but in the North I look upon it that the operation of these difficulties is producing results very injurious to the Provincial District of Auckland. I think these results, before twelve months are over, will be serious. It is the influx of money which contributed to give to Auckland its wonderful growth. 596. But now you say that the acquisition of land is coming to a standstill ?—lt has ceased, or nearly so. 597. Then, there are very few transaction taking place in Native lands now?— Very few, I think. 598. Sir G. Grey.] Are you aware that in the early days of land purchase all the purchases were publicly and openly made in the presence of the tribe ?—They were so. I would like to add— because it will tell honourable members not only the wonderful change that has taken place in the country—that the money was also paid in public. Not only were the arrangements made in public and the money paid in public, but it was paid in sovereigns. I will give you an instance of what used to be the practice. It occurred in 1854. The Government had just completed the purchase of the Toktoka Block in the Kaipara. The people—the Natives, that is—were assembled at Mangawhare to get the money. It was land that had been conquered by Te Parawhao, a hapu of Ngapuhi. There were assembled the people of the tribes Ngatiwhatua, Te Uriohau, and others ; who had been defeated and expelled. There were all the chiefs in a circle. Beyond were the people. There were Mr. Johnson, the Land Purchase Commissioner, and myself looking on. Mr. Johnson produced a canvas bag with 800 sovereigns in it. He set it in the centre of the circle of chiefs. Te Tirarau, who was the most eminent Native man in that part of the country, took it up and placed it in front of old Te Wheinga, who belonged to the original owners. There it stood about a minute. Then Te Whoinga returned it and put it in front of Te Tirarau. He took it up and put it in front of Paikea, who represented another branch of the conquered. So it went round to all, and went baok again to the original position before Te Tirarau. There it stood a long time. Then Te Tirarau took out a handful of sovereigns and gave them to Parore. Then he took out another handful of sovereigns and gave them to the next, and so on, all round. At last he held up the bag inverted. There was nothing in it, and he got nothing for himself. 599. Hon. Mr. Bryce.] I understand you to say that a repetition of this scene could not be now expected ? —No. 600. Then, suppose the Natives were assembled for the purpose of sale, as you have suggested, what sort of scene might be expected now. I want you to describe what you would expect. You haTe described what you had seen ? —I should expect to see every man, without respect to rank, title, or anything else, try to get as much as ho could. 601. Yet, if I understand you rightly, this is the way that you would recommend the money to be paid—that is, before the Natives assembled in that manner ?—No. 602. Yes, you said so: you said that the tribe should be assembled?— That scene would be what I should expect to see if the bag were put down as in old days. It is not what I would encourage. 603. But you have said that the tribe should be assembled to receive the money?— Yes. 604. Then, having been assembled, you would expect to see every man grabbing for as large a share as he could get ?—Yes; they would desire to get as much as they could; but Ido not suppose they would be permitted to do that. 605. Now, how would justice be secured in view of this endeavour of each one to seize as much as-possible. I want you to describe the process, if you will?— The equitable division of money among the hapus by Europeans is impossible. Before you can divide among twenty people money according to their several rights in the land, you must ascertain their relative rights, that, is what represents the mana of the land. To find the relative values of the claims of chiefs in the land 1 have always found to be impossible. You will find a judgment of mine to that effect. 606. That was. given-at Napier?— Yes. There was also one given at.Taranaki, where I said it was quite impossible to ascertain ,the proportionate value of the several classes of chiefs and tutuas ; but if that cannot be arranged by tfie people themselves, then you must divide the money by the rule of thumb, i.e., in equal shares, as is now the general practice. 607. I understand that this is your plan, to have the tribe assembled in this way. You then point out the difficulty of Europeans making the distribution of the money; you have also pointed