I.—2b

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effect the purpose, they would have no confidence in it: they would not care about the objects of the persons constituting it. Hon. Mr. Bryce : I do not quite understand this myself. Sir G. Grey : Nor do I. Hon. Mr. Bryce : Do you mean that they are to give directions from time to time after going to the Board?—l am somewhat confused about the meaning of the question. 568. Hon. Mr. Ballance.] I am assuming that the Committee represents the wishes of the owners. The Committee gives directions to the Board to do a certain thing; the Board carry out this specific direction: would not the Board then have the confidence of the Natives ?—I think the Maori would be very reluctant to put his confidence in such a body. I need not go so far as to say that, if the direction given were absolute to do what the local Committee wished, the Maori might think of it. But I am of opinion that the Maori will be reluctant to put his business into the hands of a foreign body. He would rather do it himself. 569. You say that the penal part of the Bill is very oppresive. You referred to the penal clauses?—l do not think I spoke about that twelve months' imprisonment. I treated it rather as a joke. 570. But why treat it as a joke?— Because I was once subject to it myself. I was living on Native land. 571. Do you think, if this Bill becomes law, that persons will purchase land privately?— They will not pay money; but I think you will find that they will occupy land, and possibly put cattle and sheep upon it. They will do what I did in 1850 and 1851 in spite of any penalty. 572. Your experience, then, is drawn from your own action in 1851 ? —Yes. 573. Was there any penalty then for living on Native land ?—Yes. I think, too, it was imprisonment, but lam not certain. On referring to the ordinance (which witness read) I find the penalty is a continuing one not exceeding £100. It recurs on continued breach. 574. You say that the intervention of the Government in dealing with money under the Bill would be distasteful to the Maoris. Do you not think, in regard to the dealing with money, that it is absolutely necessary to guard the disposing of it ?—I do very strongly. 575. Do you think that the clauses in this Bill are likely to be effective in this respect?—lf I understand the clauses aright—l am not well acquainted with the Public Eevenues Act—but it appears to me that the centre of all these things is in Wellington. The trouble and expense of dealing with money and the interest on money from here is well known. It is also well known how great is the reluctance which the Maori has to put money into the hands of the Public Trustee. 576. But I suppose you would admit that some kind of stringent audit is necessary ?—Yes, I do ; I feel that very strongly. 577. You have said that the Natives will deal with their own land through their own people : what do you mean by that ?—I stated it very broadly fliat they would prefer to deal with their lands through themselves. 578. Sir G. Grey.] Through themselves ? If I understand Mr. Eenton rightly, he means they would act each through his own hapu or tribe; they would not like it to go through another hapu or tribe?— That is it exactly. 579. Hon.. Mr. Ballance.] What do you mean by that? How do you propose that they should deal with their own land ?—ln any way they think lit. 580. Do you think that the settlement of the country ought to be considered in dealing with land ?— I do. 581. Have you considered how that can be reconciled with the interests of the Natives themselves?—l have. 582. Will you state to the Committee the plan that you would propose ? —I am not quite certain whether this is the place to give my views of Native policy. 583. You say the Maoris would prefer to deal with their own land through their own people, and you add to that the question of settlement ?—You are asking me, Mr. Ballance, whether I am able to develop a Native policy. I am, or I think I am, but lam not certain that this is the place for it. 584. How do you propose that they should deal with their land through their own people ?— Having set up representative men, and having guarded that principle with the knowledge which we have acquired from our experience of the Act of 1865,1 would give these representative men absolute power. I may say here that the evils of the Act of 1865 did not arise from selling the land, but from the misappropriation of the moneys. Some time ago I referred to the word " committee," and it appeared to me to have the same meaning as " trustees." But the word " committee " is now well known to the Maoris, while " trustee" is a word which you cannot put into the Maori language. It is something of a personal matter this, and it is the reason why I expressed a desire to an honourable member that you would give me an opportunity to be heard before this Committee, not on this! Bill, but that I wished to remove an impression which I know existed in the minds of members of Parliament that grantees under the Act of 1865 were Trustees. They were not Trustees. 585. I understand you to say that you prefer the local " Committees " under this Bill to the " trustees " under the Act of 1865, and you give as your reason that their powers were more limited ? —Yes, Ido mean that. With respect to the guardianship of the money, I would prefer the Government to nothing. 586. You approve of a system of trusts for them, but subject to limitations?— Not limitations of power over land, but limitations of power over money. 587. Bjjt, generally, you approve of the clauses relating to local Committees in the Bill ?—Yes. 588. The only objection,you made was that the tenure of the "office was too long?—I think it is too long. 589. Was that?the only objection you had?-- -",'y objection is that the local Committees are subordinate to the Board; both the Committees ant the Boards are subordinate to the Governor in Council. If you stop at local Committees and give them full powers I should be very glad.