NATIVE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE. THE NATIVE LANDS SETTLEMENT AND ADMINISTRATION BILL (REPORT ON), TOGETHER WITH PETITIONS AND MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. (Mr. R.M. HOUSTON, CHAIRMAN.)

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1898 Session I, I-03a

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1898. NEW ZEALAND.

NATIVE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE. THE NATIVE LANDS SETTLEMENT AND ADMINISTRATION BILL (REPORT ON), TOGETHER WITH PETITIONS AND MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. (Mr. R.M. HOUSTON, CHAIRMAN.)

Brought up on the 3rd November, 1898, and ordered to be printed in English and Maori.

OKDEK OP REFERENCE. Extract from the Journals of the House of Representatives. Tuesday, the 20th Day of Septembeb, 1898. Ordered, " That the Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill be referred to the Native Affairs Committee."—(Right Hon. R. J. Seddon.)

KEPOBT. The Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill. The Native Affairs Committee, to whom was referred the above-mentioned Bill, have directed me to report that, after taking evidence at considerable length from Natives, representatives from all parts of the colony, in reference to the questions involved, it is found impossible, at this late period of the session, to give due consideration to the measure ; it is therefore recommended that the Bill be allowed to stand over till next session, and in the meantime all evidence taken in connection therewith be printed. B. M. Houston, Chairman. 3rd November, 1898. [For Bill, see Appendices.]

PETITIONS. Nos. 342, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, and 379.—Petitions of Tamahau Mahupuku and 3,367 Others, Tawake Pine and 9 Others, Eaubi Kepa and 29 Others, Hiea Ihaia and 49 Others, Timi Waata Bimini and 71 Others, Hieaka te Bango and 6 Others, Matuha Enoka and 71 Others. Petitionees approve of the Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill, and pray that it may be adopted, with certain amendments passed by the great assembly of Maoris at Papawai on the 20th June, 1898. I am directed to report that the Committee recommend that these petitions be referred to the Government for consideration. 3rd November, 1898. E. M. Houston, Chairman.

No. 342 (Bight Hon. Mr. Seddon). Referred direct to Native Affairs Committee as petition, 30th September, 1898. To the Eight Hon. Mr. Seddon, Native Minister. Gbeeting. We, the undersigned, whose names and marks are affixed hereto, approve and support the Bill and the amendments finally passed on the 20th June, 1898, by the great assembly of Maori chiefs of New Zealand, and we pray you to consider and adopt these amendments and new clauses to your Bill. Sufficient. God save the Queen. Tamahau Mahupuku and 3,367 Others. Similar petitions to above: Nos. 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, and 379.—Petitions of Tawake Pine and 9 Others, Bawiei Kbpa and 29 Others, Hiea Ihaia and 49 Others, Timi Waat-a Eimini and 71 Others, Hieaka te Eango and 6 Others, Matuha Enoka and 71 Others. Total number of signatures to petitions in favour of Bill, 3,609. I—l. 3a.

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Nos. 195, 196, 197, 326, 347, 355, and 373.—Petitions of Hamioea Mangakahia and 6 Others, Wiaei Topia and 113 Others, Tana Taingakawa and 5,975 Others, Toataua te Ake and 3,390 Others, Taaee Poeotene and 41 Others, Henaee te Atua and 98 Others, Teiea Waieau and 145 Others. Total signatures, 9,775. Petitionees disapprove of the Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill, and pray that a measure be introduced more advantageous to the Maori race. I am directed to report that the Committee recommend that these petitions be referred to the Government for consideration. 3rd November, 1898. B. M. Houston, Chairman.

No. 195 (Mr. Kaihau). To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Eepresentatives of New Zealand in Parliament assembled. The petition of the undersigned aboriginal natives of New Zealand humbly showeth, — 1. That your petitioners are opposed to the passing by your honourable House of the Bill introduced into it by the Bight Honourable B. J. Seddon, Premier of New Zealand, intituled "The Native Lands Settlement and Administration Act, 1898." 2. That the prominent supporters of the Bill, who are aboriginal natives, are principally those who will not be affected by it, being either persons for whose benefit special legislation has been introduced into Parliament, or whose lands are mortgaged to the Public Trustee, or who have no lands at all. 3. Your petitioners object to the Bill for many reasons, of which the following are the principal:— (a.) That it proposes to vest their lands in a Board absolutely controlled by the Government, which will probably exercise its powers of control rather for the advantage of settlement in general than for the advantage of the Maori owners. (b.) That by the proposals in the Bill a bare majority of Natives in a district, who may be unintelligent and incapable of managing their own affairs, may deprive a minority, who may be educated and capable, of any voice in the management of their own land. (c.) That such proposals are contrary to the letter and spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi, and to the rights of the Natives as British subjects. (d.) That the proposed Board will be entirely controlled by Government, because it will nominate on such Board two members and the Commissioner of Crown Lands, who shall be Chairman, and because it will pay to the elected Native members only such salaries and travelling-allowances as the Governor in Council prescribes, and because it has the power to remove from office for alleged misconduct any member at any time. (c.) That your petitioners fear that the borrowing-powers proposed in the Bill, and the regulations for the disposal of lands, may be used rather in the interests of the particular theories of settlement which may be advocated by the Government of the day than in the interests of the Native owners, who may find that their lands have been pledged for the repayment of moneys borrowed for surveying, roads, bridges, railways, and other improvements which in other parts of the colony have been made at the expense of the consolidated revenue, to which the Native owners have contributed. (/.) That your petitioners object to the transference, as proposed by the Bill, to the Native Land Board, a body probably without judicial experience, and which may be controlled as aforesaid by political influence, of the powers of partition, succession, the definition of relative interests, and the appointment of trustees, as proposed by section 21 of the said Bill. They also say that the Bill contains no provision for any right of appeal from the decision of the Board in these important matters. (g.) That your petitioners are uninformed as to the intention and operation of section 47 of the said proposed Bill, which, in the absence of precise information to the contrary, they apprehend and believe would render their lands liable to many onerous statutory provisions to which they are not now subject. (h.) That your petitioners have many other specific objections to the Bill, or particular sections thereof, which they propose to set forth when this their petition comes under the consideration of a Committee of your honourable House. 4. That your petitioners believe that the expenses to be paid by them out of their lands in the working of the said Bill will be far greater than the expenses heretofore paid to the Native Land Court; and that the Bill, if carried by your honourable House, will sooner or later be equivalent to a confiscation of their beneficial interests in the lands remaining to them. 5. Your petitioners, according to the petition to Her Majesty and to the Parliament of New Zealand, referred to in the preamble to the said Bill, are desirous that the residue of the Native land now remaining in possession of the Native owners should be reserved for their use and benefit in such wise as to protect them from the risk of being left landless ; but, for the reasons heretofore set forth, and for many minor reasons hereafter to be stated, they feel assured that the purpose they have in view will not be attained by the machinery provided by the Bill now before Parliament. Wherefore your petitioners humbly pray that your honourable House would be pleased to reject the Bill intituled "The Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill, 1898," or, in the alterna-

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tive, that your honourable House would be pleased to postpone the consideration of the same until the next-ensuing session of Parliament, in order that your petitioners and other the Maori subjects of Her Majesty the Queen may have a reasonable opportunity of giving consideration to a measure which proposes to effect such vital changes in their status as British subjects and landed proprietors. And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Hamioea Mangakahia and 6 Others.

No. 196 (Mr. Kaihau). To the Speaker and Members of the House of Eepresentatives assembled. Your petitioners urge :— Firstly.—We, the Maori tribes of Wanganui within the limits of all its boundaries, protest against the Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill of the Government, which proposes to bring our lands under the operation of the Boards constituted by the said Bill, because we are entirely certain that no benefits whatsoever will accrue to our remaining lands under the arrangements empowering mortgages provided under the said Bill. Secondly.—We declare with truth that we would suffer most severely under the provisions of the said Bill, for our lands are in a different position to that of other lands, because our land is about worth Is. 6d. per acre; that is almost the general value of. our lands. Therefore would not be competent to pay off the mortgages which (would) lie upon them. Thirdly.—Under the burdensome provisions imposed by the said Bill the members of the Board are to be paid. Secondly, the moneys borrowed. Thirdly, the interest moneys. Now, these are three provisions which would entirely crush our lands, and would prevent permanent benefits arising to the owners of the land, but would be of very great benefit to members of the Board. To the owners of the land there would be no benefit whatsoever. Fourthly.—The desire and the hope of the heart is that purchases may be immediately put a stop to, in accordance with the principles of the said Bill. But our lands are taken away, reserved, placed under mortgage, and left to lie there, and it will be utterly impossible to release them therefrom unless placed within this brimstone fire to be consumed, and for forty-two years tried and proved whether it will be preserved or consumed. This is an exceedingly grave affliction, which threatens us and our lands. Therefore we earnestly pray do not. let this Bill operate upon us, the tribes resident in the West Coast district. And your petitioners will ever pray. Wiaei Topia and 113 Others.

No. 197, 1898 (Mr. Kaihau). To the Speaker and Honourable Members of the House of Eepresentatives assembled in Parliament of New Zealand : Greeting. This the petition of the undersigned aboriginal natives of New Zealand humbly showeth, — That we, the tribes, hapus, and chiefs, male and female, resident in the West Coast district, who have signed our names to this petition, hereby disclose to your honourable Assembly the matters underwritten, viz.: (1.) We have seen the Board Bill laid by the Premier and his Government before the various assemblies of the Maori people. (2.) We have carefully looked into and considered the main principles of the said Bill, and very grievous misfortunes would befall our lands were we to agree to the passing of the said Bill, inasmuch as the uninvestigated portions (jpapatupu) of our lands, which have not as yet fallen into the hands of the Native Land Court, would be in such case absolutely divested of their present papatupu character. The only desirable principle disclosed in the precis of the said Bill being the abolition of the Native Land Court and of the sale of lands to the Crown or private purchasers. But what renders it difficult to agree to is the provision that not until the said Board Bill has finally passed will the said Native Land Court and the said land-purchase be abolished. Therefore we pray you as follows : There is not a single part of the Bill to which we agree ; right through all the district of the West Coast we steadfastly protest against this Board Bill. In witness of our objection we have hereunder signed our names. Tana Taingakawa and 5,975 Others.

No. 326, 1898 (Mr. Kaihau). Petition of Toataua te Ake and 3,390 Others. Same as No. 197 of Tana Taingakawa and 5,975 others.

No. 347, 1898 (Mr. Kaihau). To the Honourable the Speaker and Members of the House of Eepresentatives in Parliament assembled. The petition of the undersigned aboriginal natives of New Zealand humbly showeth, — 1. That through the medium of the Press we are informed that the Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill has passed the second reading in your honourable House, and has been referred to the Native Affairs Committee. 2. That the Native race generally recognise that your honourable House will jealously guard the interests of the remnant of the Maori people, and that no attempt to prejudicially affect, by legislation, our interests will receive your support. 3. That we have read and had explained to us a synopsis of the proposed Bill, as circulated by the Eight Hon. the Premier, and spoken to by him at various meetings of Natives throughout the colony.

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4. That we are entirely in sympathy with and agreeable to the provison that the purchase by the Crown of Native lands shall at once cease and determine, in the manner as has the sale of Native lands to individuals been prohibited under the provisions of " The Native Land Court Act, 1894." 5. That this can be done, it is submitted with respect, by a resolution of your honourable House embodied in a Bill prohibiting any further purchase of Native lands by or on behalf of the Crown. 6. That we object to all the other principles embodied in the proposed Bill, and especially to the powers conferred therein upon Boards in the management of Native lands, for the following reasons amongst others: (a.) That the mana of our lands handed down to us by our ancestors, and secured to us under the Treaty of Waitangi, will, under the Bill, be ruthlessly taken away from us and virtually handed to the Crown, (b.) That the proposed Boards would in all probability be so constituted as to endanger the fair and just administration of our lands, with consequential grave results, results so far-reaching that the complete downfall of the Native race would be in measurable distance, (c.) That under the provisions of the Bill the principle of self-reliance, which in itself forms so large a factor in the making of a nation, is withheld from the Native people, whose allegiance to the Crown and general conduct in the past surely does not merit invidious and exceptional treatment. We humbly ask your honourable House not to pass into law this Bill, and submit for your favourable consideration: (1.) That ample reserves for the future maintenance and support of the Native race may be made out of the remnant of the land owned by Natives. (2.) That all landless Natives who have become such through confiscation of their estates or through purchase by the Crown of their lands may be awarded out of Crown lands sufficient for their maintenance and support. (3.) That the time has arrived when the Native race should be placed on a footing of equality with Her Majesty's white subjects, obtaining all the privileges of good citizenship as well as sharing all the responsibilities. Wherefore your petitioners pray that your honourable House will throw out the Bill introduced by the Bight Hon. the Premier, and pass a measure which will benefit the condition of the Native race. And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Taaee Poeotene and 41 Others.

No. 355, 1898 (Mr. Kaihau). [Translation.] To the Speaker and Honourable Members of the House of Eepresentatives in Parliament assembled at Wellington : Greeting. Take notice that we have signed our names hereto in support of the movement to overthrow the Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill. Henaee te Atua and 98 Others.

No. 373, 1898. [Translation.] This is a prayer from your petitioners to your honourable Committee, assembled at Wellington: Greeting. We oppose the petition of Ihaka Kemara asking that the Board operate upon Maori lands which reach 10,000 acres and upwards in area; therefore your petitioners pray your honourable Committee to refuse the said petition, because the effect of that petition was not explained to us by Ihaka Kemara so that the supporters of the said petition might understand what it meant. The only explanation given by Ihaka Kemara was that it was a petition in support of the petition of the entire tribe praying that the Premier's Board Bill be overthrown. Therefore your petitioners pray that it may be thrown out. Wherefore we have hereunder signed our names. Teiea Wairau and 145 Others.

No. .232, 1898.—Petition of Taituha Hape and 108 Others, of Ngatitahu Hapu, Kaiapoi. Petitioners pray that the proposed new Native land laws may not apply to the Middle Island. I am directed to report that the Committee recommend that this petition be referred to the Government for consideration. 3rd November, 1898. B. M. Houston, Chairman.

No. 232, 1898 (Mr. Parata). To the Honourable the Speaker and Honourable Members of the House of Eepresentatives in Parliament assembled : Greetings. This is a petition from us, the tribe of Naitahu, assembled at Kaiapoi. We petition you in regard to the Bill which was published in the Eahiti of the sth May, 1898, intituled a "Precis of the provisions of an Act for the Protection and Administration of Native lands " (viz., providing for a Board for the administration of Native land). We pray that the said Bill be not made applicable to us or to the Middle Island, for the following reason: Our landed interests are too insignificant to require being placed under the administration of a Board, and we are quite able to manage our lands ourselves—to wit: No trouble has ever arisen during past years between us and our lessees. And your petitioners will ever pray. Kaiapoi, July, 1898. Taituha Hape and 108 Others.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Wednesday, 28th September, 1898. PETITION OP HAMIORA MANGAKAHIA AND OTHERS. Te Heuheu, representing the tribes of Tuwharetoa, Wanganui, Te Aroha, Ngatiraukawa, and Ngatimaniopoto (objectors to the Bill), examined. The Chairman : I wish the Natives present to understand that I desire to hear separately their views in reference to this Native Bill, and I would ask that each of the spokesmen representing their different districts be as concise and short as possible in giving their views either for or against the Bill. Te Heuheu: Greeting to the Chairman and members of this Committee. The first matter which I wish to bring before the notice of this Committee is to request them to give effect to the petition which has been signed by the seven persons commencing with the name of Hamiora Mangakahia (No. 195). When I have gone on further to explain matters which I do not think are thoroughly expressed in that petition I will then deal with the Bill. While dealing with the petition and elaborating it I shall have to refer to certain sections of the Bill. Ido not know whether each member of the Committee has a copy of the petition to which I refer. The first part of the petition to which I will refer will be the second paragraph, which says, "2. That the prominent supporters of the Bill, who are aboriginal natives, are principally those who will not be affected by it, being either persons for whose benefit special legislation has been introduced into Parliament, or whose lands are mortgaged to the Public Trustee, or who have no lands at all." I would like to point out to the Committee that there is no reason why that clause of the petition should be worded in that way, because the position is really this : None of us are agreeable to the Bill, but there are certain of us who are in support of the amendments that were agreed upon by the Native people at Papawai. I wish now to speak with reference to clause 3a in that petition. 1. Hon. Mr. Carroll.'] I wish you to make yourself clear to the Committee as to paragraph 2 of the petition. Do you withdraw it, modify it, or what ?—The reason I say we can no longer say anything about that section of the petition is this : We were under the impression that when this Bill was brought down it would contain the resolutions and amendments of the original Bill (the Premier's Bill) that were carried by the kotahitanga hui at Papawai. However, when we got the translation of the Premier's Bill we found that, shortly speaking, none of the Papawai amendments were contained in that Bill. Therefore we need not say anything about that section. 2. There is still the allegation that this Bill will not affect the Natives. I just want you to clear that up as you go along ? —-Well, I will explain what that section means by so saying that persons in support of this Bill are persons not affected by it. I shall deal with Mr. Wi Pere first. We know that there was special legislation by Parliament some time ago with reference to Mangatu, Wi Pere's lands. Bight Hon. B. J. Seddon : I immediately raise the question that we cannot hear any motives imputed to members as to their looking after their own position in reference to legislation. No evidence of that kind, I think, should be presented. The way he is putting it, in plain English, is that it is all right for Wi Pere to support this Bill, when he has taken very good care beforehand that he is protected, because he has told us he has got the Mangatu Act passed. Captain Bussell: Mangatu represents a great deal more than Wi Pere. There are five thousand Natives affected. The Chairman: I merely look upon it as an illustration of what he is saying. Hon. Mr. Carroll: He explained first of all that their position was changed. Paragraph 2 made it distinct. He modifies that, owing to having seen the Bill since, and he would qualify that paragraph. Why they put it there was because they looked upon Wi Pere's position as being affected by legislation. Bight Hon. B. J. Seddon : Well, so long as he does not impute personal motives to members of the Committee it is all right, Te Heuheu: In the Native Land Court Act Amendment Act of 1897, as we look upon it, there the Committee was influenced by a petition presented by Wi Pere and five others last year, the result of which was that the legislation was passed so as to relieve Wi Pere and his five fellow petitioners of the disadvantage under which they laboured. 3. Wi Pere.] And because I am relieved will you be angry ? —Tamahau is another person. We have heard that he is in the same position—that his lands have been brought under the control of the Public Trustee. And Tomoana is another case in point. We know that all Tomoana's interests are under lease. And there was a special Act passed in reference to the Karamu Beserve. Now, I would point out to the Committee that these are the principal men who pressed upon the kotahitanga hui at Papawai the provisions of this Bill, and who submitted this list of resolutions and amendments there passed. With reference to the people who have no land, well, lam not in a position to speak about them. That is all I have to say about that clause of the petition. Hon. Mr. Carroll: He is not aware that that part of the petition has any foundation—that most of the petitioners are landless. He is not aware that it is true that any of the petitioners are landless. Te Heuheu : What I say is this : that there are other speakers who will follow that are in a better position to speak as-to that than I am. If it came from my district, the West Coast, I might be in a position to speak for them. Captain Bussell : Where does he speak for?

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Hon. Mr. Carroll: Taupo. Te Heuheu: Now Igoon to the 3rd clause of the petition, that part of the 3rd section which provides that the Act objected to is vesting the lands absolutely in the hands of a Board. My statement with reference to that part of the petition is that section 7 of the Bill, and subsections (1), (2), and (3) thereof, provide for two Maori members of the Board, two European members, and a Chairman also to go with them, who will have a casting-vote. That makes four votes against the two Natives. Captain Bussell: The Chairman has only a casting-vote ; that is three votes only. He has no deliberative vote. Te Heuheu: If that is so—if the Chairman has only a casting-vote and no original vote—that makes the difference three to two. We may have taken a wrong impression from the section, but we understood that it meant four votes. Secondly, the principal reason why we say our lands will be taken absolutely away and vested in the Board is owing to the fact that the Commissioner of Crown Lands in the district in which the land is situated is to be appointed Chairman and head manager of the whole thing, because, as we look at it now, it simply means that the Chairman can do as he likes. And another thing we are afraid of is this : Prom the very fact of the Chairman being Commissioner of Crown Lands, and therefore a member of the Government Administration, he must be biassed in favour of the Government interest. That is to say this : Supposing at any time this Board constituted by section 7 were sitting, and it was ordered that the Native title over that land should cease, I am afraid they would be able to do it under this section —to kill the Native title and rights. What supports that view, I contend, is this : that any of the members, either Maori or European, of the Board can be removed if the Governor in Council saw any reason why they should be so removed. I can say this now :If the actions or views of a member do not fall in with their wishes and views they can have him removed. Now, the third reason why we say we are afraid the mana of our lands will be vested absolutely in the Board is this: The Board is empowered to borrow money. What we object to in this is that the people owning the land have no voice at all in the decision of the Board as to whether it shall or shall not borrow money. That is to say, they are not in a position to see what the Bill provides in another place. We are willing that the amount of £5,000 shall be borrowed, or less than that, or whatever sum they might chance to agree upon. We think that is a very important aspect of this matter. Our fourth reason for saying that this Bill will take away all the rights of our land is the fact that this Bill supersedes the old rights to the land—that is to say, Our former titles under Crown lands, Crown grant, or memorial of ownership, or whatever title it may be. All those forms of mana that are known by the European under the general name of title will be superseded by this. Our fifth reason is on account of the expression " fee-simple," in section 19, subsection (a). What we understand the word fee-simple to mean is an absolute wiping-out of all Maori rights to the land, and absolutely vesting without reserve in the Board the rights to the land. That being so, as we look upon it, the Board can do whatever it likes, according to its own sweet will, with regard to the land. It can make use of the land to borrow money from England or from any bank where money can be got, because it is absolutely not competent for any one to interfere or to say what shall or shall not be done with it. The Board has got the land entirely in its own hands, and can do what it likes with it. Or they can settle people on the land and do whatever they please in that way; and it is our opinion that, if lands which have come into the grip of the Board are settled by it, moneys that would thereby through settlement accrue from these lands would go into the hands of the Board, and be used by it for the purpose of paying for roads and improvements and other matters as provided for in the Bill. Well, it seems to us that, if the money is disbursed in those directions, it is very problematical if any would be left to divide among the original owners of the land. These are the reasons why we say we believe this Act will deprive us of our right and title to our own land. Now, I will refer to subclause (6) of clause 3 of the petition, " That by the proposals in the Bill a bare majority of Natives in a district, who may be unintelligent and incapable of managing their own affairs, may deprive a minority, who may be educated and capable, of any voice in the management of their own land." That is to say, we shall be prevented by this Act from carrying out our own customs; and our young people, who may have been educated at school and gained knowledge thereby, will be overruled and nave no voice in the matter. In fact, what that means is this : Firstly, we are prevented by this Bill from doing our best to improve our interests. Now, the felling of bush is a source from which revenue is derived by Natives, and we are prevented from doing that by this Bill; nor can we plant fruit-trees on our land, nor can we grow wheat, or oats, or potatoes, or crops of that kind. That is, we are prevented from using our best endeavours in our own behalf by this Bill. We are prevented from rearing cattle, sheep, pigs, horses, or any stock of that description by this Bill. That being so, what has been the object of educating our children, who have been educated at Government schools in order that they may become intelligent, and capable of undertaking the management of their own lands for themselves and for those who will come after them. 4. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Have you noticed subsection (4) of section 18 ? —Yes; I shall have something to say as to that presently. I propose to go on as before. This is one of the provisions of the Bill to which we strongly object. Our petition is of this nature. Now, suppose a man had many interests in many large blocks, there is absolutely no means left open to that man under this Bill whereby he could, if he so chose, improve this land of his. I will cite myself as an instance. Even though the lands in my district may not be perhaps as valuable as those in other districts, in the Taupo district lam an owner in, say, ten blocks of land. I will say that out of the ten blocks, roughly speaking, four or five of them I wish to proceed with in improving forthwith, if it had not been for this Act—that is, lands that might be suitable for settlement, clearing, sheep-raising, or fruit-raising; but this Bill, as I understand it, will deprive me of my right in all the other blocks, and I shall only be permitted to utilise one of the ten blocks for my benefit. I should only be able to use one block ; I should be deprived of my interest in the other nine. Another of our objections

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to this section is that the Board is empowered to take from the owners of lands part of their land and give it to other Natives who have no land ; and it further provides that the balance remaining after the owners of that land shall be allotted interests, and the persons who have no land shall be provided for, that the balance of the land shall be dealt with by the Board. Ido not mean to say it would be seized from them, but that these people who have no land will be provided for out of the lands of the people who have. I say it is for the benefit of everybody that this is proposed. Hon. Mr. Carroll: Where all applications are equal, if any preference should be given it would be given to those applicants who are landless. That is all the length the clause goes. Te Heuheu: Now, we can very easily see that if this Bill is carried into effect it would mean this : that by the time the people who had rights get their share and the people who have no land get theirs, the balance remaining will be the worst of the land. What we ask ourselves is this : Will this mountainous and, comparatively speaking, valueless land be desired by anybody to do anything with when the Board has it under its control. That is why I object to that section. Now, as to subclause (c) of clause 3, " That such proposals are contrary to the letter and spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi, and to the rights of the Natives as British subjects." I shall not take a great deal of time over this clause. I say that what we understand, and what we have always understood, is this : that section 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi assures to the Natives all their rights, title, and management of their own affairs. No doubt, the Committee are familiar with that paragraph of the Treaty of Waitangi. It provides, " Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the chiefs and tribes of New Zealand, and to the representative families and individuals thereof, the full, exclusive, and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries, and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess, so long as it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession ; but the chiefs of the united tribes and the individual chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of pre-emption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate, at such prices as may be agreed upon between the representative proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them in that behalf." Now, this Native Board Bill provides for the absolute wiping-out of all the rights that are assured and confirmed to the Natives under the Treaty of Waitangi. We know that in section 71 of the Constitution Act of 1852 it says, " And whereas it may be expedient that the laws, customs, and usages of the aboriginal or Native inhabitants of New Zealand, so far as they are not repugnant to the general principles of humanity, should for the present be maintained for the government of themselves in all their relations to and dealings with each other, and that particular districts should be set apart within which such laws, customs, or usages should be so observed, it shall be lawful for Her Majesty, in and by any Letters Patent to be issued under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom, from time to time to make provision for the purposes aforesaid, any repugnancy of any such Native laws, customs, or usages, law of England, or to any law, statute, or usage in force in New Zealand, or in any part thereof, in any wise notwithstanding." Hon. Mr. GarroU : In those days power was taken under this section to set aside, when practicable, Native districts, to be administered only in regard to their own affairs under some form of council or local body. Te Heuheu: These rights have never been objected to by the Maoris from the time of the Treaty of Waitangi up to the present time, nor have the pakehas either objected to them. In fact, in our opinion this Bill is the first occasion upon which we have been sought to be deprived of these rights, because the agreeing of the 512 chiefs and old people at the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 has never been objected to, nor has exception been taken to the action of these old chiefs, either by partition or in any other way, until now. If we were to agree to this Bill now we should be doing so. What the tribes in New Zealand wish to accomplish is this : They wish to support all the measures that would provide for the carrying-out of the privileges conferred upon them by the Treaty of Waitangi and the Constitution Act of 1852. This Committee is, no doubt, aware that there is a runanga, or Native committee, which has been sitting during the last seven years past. I refer to the kotahitanga committee or movement, and the people who have agreed to support the Treaty of Waitangi and its provisions number thirty-seven thousand. The names are all written down, so as to be certain that we are correct in saying that these persons have bound themselves together to uphold the Treaty of Waitangi and its provisions. This Committee is, no doubt, aware of a certain Bill—that is, a number of resolutions and amendments proposed by the Maori meeting at Papawai —amendments suggested by them to the Premier's original Bill. I had better explain to the Committee about that —that those amendments and new clauses and resolutions arrived at by the meeting at Papawai were not done in accordance with the rules and regulations which were drawn up by them at the time they first constituted this hui. That is to say, these amendments and clauses were not drawn up before or in the presence of the Speaker and members of the Government of the hui which had been constituted by them for the direction and management of matters like these. But these were drawn up as embodying the views of a certain section of the hapus who were there who had decided to draw up amendments. But the other persons there, who had not anything to do with these arrangements or agreed to these amendments, are the people who are now here objecting to the proposals of the Bill. In support of what I said just now, that the desire of the Natives as a whole, generally speaking, is to support and secure the carrying-out of the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi, I say there is a Bill which the Committee is, no doubt, aware of before you for consideration, brought down by Mr. Henry Kaihau, and that Bill will show that the people who are under the Kauhanganui —that is, Mahuta's people—are desirous of carrying out the Treaty of Waitangi. 1 think that is all I need say about subsection (c) of clause 3of the petition. Now I will go to subsection (c) of clause 3of the petition, " That your petitioners fear that the borrowing-powers proposed in the Bill and the regulations for the disposal of lands may be used rather in the interests of the particular theories of settlement which may be advocated by the Government of the day than in the interests of the Native owners, who may find that their lands have been pledged for the repayment of moneys borrowed for surveying, roads,

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bridges, railways, and other improvements which in other parts of the colony"have been made at the expense of the consolidated revenue, to which the Native owners have contributed." Subsection (6) of clause 18 of the Bill provides that the Board shall have power to expend money in certain directions. What subsection (c) of the petition means is that we petitioners are afraid—we dread these powers which are vested in the Board by the Bill. I have explained why we are afraid in subsection (a) in clause 3of the petition. There is section 26 of the Bill. I would like to ask the Committee to explain to me what these things mean. It reads thus : " All rentals, royalties, fees, and other income derived in respect of lands vested in the Native Land Board under the provisions of this Act shall be paid to the Board, and shall, in the prescribed manner, be applied by the Board. We do not know what royalties and fees are. What do they mean ? What are they ? This is what we are very much afraid of. We are in dread of this section and the power it gives to the Board —right through this section 26 and its three subsections. Section 34, subsection (1), provides that interest upon the amount of the advance shall be at the rate of £5 per centum per annum. Now, that is one of the reasons why we say we dread the power that is being conferred on the Board by this Bill. We object to the interest that accrues from money derived from Maori lands being set aside to pay money borrowed in this way. That is one of the things that firmly convinces us that, once land is given to the Board under this Bill, it is the last we shall see of it, and we shall never get it back again. Now Igo to section 42, " Moneys deemed to be public moneys." That section provides that all such moneys payable to such account shall be deemed to be public moneys—that is, belonging to the colony at large —or, as I understand it, the money becomes the property of all the pakehas, all the negroes, all the Chinamen, and all the Europeans of whatever nationality. These negroes, these Chinamen, or these people of other nations never had an interest in these lands from which these moneys are derived; yet, without any warrant for so doing, we are going to make them participate in these moneys derived from our land. There are other sections also in the Bill to which I will refer. Now, in the Lands Improvement and Native Lands Acquisition Act of 1894 there are certain sections that provide means whereby moneys may be borrowed. Section 8 of that Act provides that " Out of the moneys hereinafter authorised to be raised two hundred and fifty thousand pounds shall, as and when raised, be paid into the Public Account, and be credited by the Treasurer to a separate account called, ' The Lands Improvement Account.' " Very well; section 47 of the Board Bill says that " This Act shall be construed subject to the provisions of the following Acts, that is to say : ' The Eailways Construction and Land Act, 1881'; ' The Land and Income Assessment Act, 1891'; ' The Public Works Act, 1894'; ' The Eating Act, 1894'; ' The Bating on Unimproved Value Act, 1896.' " This section is to be construed without any reservation. It does not say under the provisions of any particular part or section, but without reserve under the whole of these Acts. Now, as we understand it, this Board can borrow up to £250,000. I propose, for the sake of argument, to illustrate that in this way : Where construed under the provisions of this Act it is competent for the Board to borrow £200,000 this year, another £200,000 next year, and before we get four or five years hence we shall find it utterly impossible for these lands to relieve themselves from the moneys borrowed on them. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent the Board from borrowing how it likes. I would like to read sections 12, 16, and 18 of the Act of 1894, from which I quote. By section 12 it is provided, " Out of the moneys hereinafter authorised to be raised two hundred and fifty thousand pounds shall, as and when raised, be paid into the Public Account, and be credited by the Treasury to a separate account, called ' The Native Lands Purchase Account. , ' Section 16 says, " For the purposes of this Act the Colonial Treasurer, upon being authorised by the Governor in Council so to do, may from time to time uaise any sums, not exceeding in the whole five hundred thousand pounds, out of any balances in any of the accounts mentioned in Part VIII. of ' The Public Eevenues Act, 1891,' or out of moneys at the credit of the Public Works Fund, or wholly or partly from any bank, monetary institution, or person." Section 18 provides that, "As security for any money raised as aforesaid, the Colonial Treasurer may from time to time create and issue debentures for any amount not exceeding five hundred thousand pounds." To go back again to subsection (c) of paragraph 3 of our petition, I have endeavoured to show the reason why we dread the exercise of the borrowing-powers conferred upon the Board by this Bill. Now, to proceed to paragraph (/) of section 3of the petition—•" That your petitioners object to the transference, as proposed by the Bill, to the Native Land Board, a body probably without judicial experience, and which may be controlled as aforesaid by political influence, of the powers of partition, succession, the definition of relative interests, and the appointment of trustees, as proposed by section 21 of the said Bill." Now I propose to explain to the Committee the objections that we take to the body whom it is to propose to constitute into a Board to deal with our lands. First, what we say is that these are not people who will know how to investigate the rights of ownership. 5. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] You prefer the Native Land Court as it is?—l will go on to speak of that presently. Another thing to which we object is the appointment of Native members to the Board, to be selected from among the people who own land in the district in which the Board is to act. That will show that the two Native members of that Board must be men who are interested in certain parts of the district wherein they will be called upon to act as judges. Now, what does that mean ? These men cannot fail to have certain ideas and certain opinions as to what are their own rights and the rights of hapus and people within the boundaries of the land over which they are called upon to preside as members of a Board of management. Secondly, it is to be asked what will be their opinion about themselves as members of that Board ? If they are, besides being members of the Board, owners in the land in which they themselves will be called upon to deal I am afraid it is competent for us to say that these men will be biassed, that they will have leanings towards the side of their own relatives and hapus, and their own individual rights, or what they may conceive those rights to be. Now, secondly, it is provided that the decision of that Board upon investigation, is to be final, and there is to be no means of securing redress if people are not satisfied with their findings.

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Thursday, 29th Sbptbmbeb, 1898. Mr. Tβ Hedheu in attendance : examination continued. 6. The Chairman.'] Will you proceed with your statement ?—I commence by greeting the Chairman and the members of the Committee. I will now come to paragraph 3, (/), of the petition. I have just a word or two to say in explanation of that. This Bill provides throughout, as I understand it, that there shall be no Court of rehearing—no Appellate Court—nor will the Supreme Court have any power to interfere in any way with any decision come to by the Board. Section 21 shows how the Board to be constituted under the Bill will be equal in power to the Supreme Court. That section reads : "In respect of all lands vested in it the Native Land Board shall have and may exercise all the powers now possessed by the Native Land Court as to partition, succession, the definition of relative interests, and the appointment of trustees for Native owners under disability." That is all I have to say about that. Clause 3, (g), of the petition says, " That your petitioners are uninformed as to the intention and operation of section 47 of the said proposed Bill, which, in the absence of precise information to the contrary, they apprehend and believe would render their lands liable to many onerous statutory provisions to which they are not now subject." I will now read section 47 of the Bill: "This Act shall be construed subject to the provisions of the following Acts, that is to say : ' The Eailways Construction and Land Act, 1881 '; ' The Land and Income Assessment Act, 1891'; ' The Public Works Act, 1894 '; ' The Land for Settlements Act, 1894'; ' The Eating Act, 1894'; ' The Eating on Unimproved Value Act, 1896 ' : Provided that, with respect to all land vested in the Native Land Board, the Board shall be treated as the owner for all the purposes of those Acts; and also that in the ease of ' The Land for Settlements Act, 1894,' such land shall be subject thereto in like manner as private land." I will point out that the Acts mentioned in that section are now for the first time brought into operation upon Native land. As to the list of Acts cited in that section, with some of them we are familiar ; the others we know nothing about. We tried to find them to see what they referred to, but have been unable to do so." Therefore, as this paragraph 3, (g), sets forth, we are uninformed as to the intention of section 47, and, that being so, we cannot help thinking it means trouble to us. There are certain sections of other Acts that are mentioned in this Native Lands Settlement Bill which are stated as being part of the Bill. In subsection (11) of section 9of the Bill it is stated :" In the case of Native members ' The Disqualification Act, 1878/ shall not apply." Then, section 15 provides :" No contribution to the Assurance Fund under ' The Land Transfer Act, 1885,' shall be payable on the registration of the Board's title of any lease under this Act." Again, subsection (5) of section 18 provides : "The Board may cede land to Her Majesty for mining purposes under 'The Mining Act, 1891.' " Then I must refer to sections 35 and 42. Section 35 provides, " For the purpose of providing funds out of which all advances under this Act may be made, the Colonial Treasurer, as often as occasion requires, may raise money from the balances in any of the accounts mentioned in Part VIII. of ' The Public Eevenues Act, 1891,' or in any other account containing public moneys which may lawfully be invested in such securities as the Governor in Council authorises, or from the Public Works Fund, or from any bank, monetary institution, or person, or from any one or more of such sources." Section 42 of the Bill provides, " All moneys in such account, or payable into such account, shall be deemed to be public moneys within the meaning of ' The Public Eevenues Act, 1891,' and all the provisions of that Act relating to public moneys and to persons dealing therewith shall apply accordingly : Provided that, except where otherwise specially directed by this "Act, all moneys payable out of such account may be so paid without further appropriation than this Act." Then, sir, section 36, subsection (8), provides, "The Governor in Council may from time to time declare all or any of the debentures to be convertible into stock created or issued under ' The Consolidated Stock Act, 1877,' or 'The Consolidated Stock Act, 1884.' " 7. Hon. Mr. Carroll.'] What is your reason for reference to these sections ?—What I say is this : that this Bill brings into operation a lot of sections of other Acts, and I am now proceeding to point out the sections so brought in. 8. Practically, you object to section 47, which brings in the Eailways Construction and Land Act, the Land and Income Assessment Act, the Eating Act, and so on?— Yes; that is what I say, and paragraph 3, (g), of the petition points out that your petitioners are uninformed as to the intention of that section. 9. We do not want you to interpret each section. Mr. Monk : Their interests are subjected to the provisions of the Acts cited in that section, and they are not acquainted with them. Tβ Heuheu : I shall presently give the reason for quoting the sections. As Igo along I shall deal with them all. Section 19 of the Bill says, " Any land vested in the Board may be taken for. a public work, or for any of the purposes specified in section two hundred and thirty-five of ' The Land Act, 1892,' and compensation paid therefor, in the same manner as land is taken for a public work and compensation paid under the authority of ' The Public Works Act, 1894,' and for the purpose of giving full effect to this section the following provisions shall apply : (a.) All land vested in the Board shall be deemed to be land within the meaning of ' The Public Works Act, 1894,' and the Board shall be deemed to be the absolute owner thereof in fee-simple, (b.) In all claims for compensation the Board shall be the claimant, and all moneys payable as compensation shall be payable to the Board, (c.) All compensation moneys paid to the Board shall be invested or otherwise applied for the benefit of the Native owners in such manner as is prescribed, and the income arising therefrom shall be applied in the same manner as the income of the land taken would have been applied if the land had not been taken. The provisions of sections twenty-eight and twenty-nine hereof shall apply to all such moneys, (d.) For the purposes of this section ' public work' has the same meaning as in ' The Public Works Act, 1894.' (2.) Nothing in this section or elsewhere in this Act,, contained shall in any way limit or affect the provisions of sections ninety-one to ninety-five of ' The Public Works Act, 1894,' or sections seventy to seventy-two of ' The Native Land Court Act, 2—l. 3a.

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1894,' relating to roads." That is all I wish to say about paragraph 3, (g), of the petition. Paragraph 4 reads in this way : " That your petitioners believe that the expenses to be paid by them out of their lands in the working of the said Bill will be far greater than the expenses heretofore paid to the Native Land Court; and that the Bill, if carried by your honourable House, will sooner or later be equivalent to a confiscation of their beneficial interests in the lands remaining to them." That is to say, shortly, that we believe the working-expenses of this Bill will be far greater than the expenses incurred through the medium of the Native Land Court. There are yearly salaries and travelling-expenses to be paid to five members of this Board. Sections 8 and 26 refer directly to this matter. Section 8 reads, "The members of the Native Land Board shall receive such salaries and travelling-allowances as the Governor in Council prescribes: Provided that in no case shall the Commissioner be entitled to a salary, nor shall any payments be made under this section except out of moneys to be appropriated by Parliament out of the hereinafter-mentioned Native Land Fund Account of the district." Section 26 says, " All rentals, royalties, fees, and other income derived in respect of lands vested in the Native Lands Board under the provisions of this Act shall be paid to the Board, and shall, in the prescribed manner, be applied by the Board— (1) First, in defraying the cost of the administration within its district of this Act and of the lands vested in the Board." Then, subsection (1) of section 32 of the Bill, which makes provision for advances to the Board, reads in this way: " The Native Land Board may submit to the Minister a schedule of the proposed works, and of the expenses thereof, and make application for an advance of the amount of such expenses." Now, We understand from these sections that the members of this Board'are to be paid yearly salaries, and their travelling-expenses are to be paid year by year, and that the money to be paid to these people is to come from the Native lands. 10. The Chairman.] The Commissioner does not receive a salary ?—lt is true he is exempt from the provisions I am endeavouring to explain. We will say, for the sake of illustrating my contention, that it will take eight Native Land Boards, as provided by this Bill, to deal with all the Native lands in the two Islands. That would mean that there would be forty members of the eight Boards; so I may say that is constituting forty Judges to investigate Native lands. Now, it is only reasonable to anticipate that it will be necessary that each of these eight Boards shall have a separate office and staff of officials. The burden of the expense of each of the institutions constituted under this Bill will have to be borne by the Native lands. To bear out what lam contending, I may point out that the Native Land Court as at present in operation is not nearly so expensive as will be the Board constituted under this Bill. To bear me out in that contention, I will go on to say that there are not, I think, more than ten Judges of the Native Land Court at present; secondly, the Assessors of the Native Land Court are not paid yearly salaries, but only as for the particular period during which they are employed in the Court; thirdly, there are offices and everything else already established and in working-order. I will also point out that the salaries of the Judges and the Assessors of the Native Land Court and all this great staff of officials are paid out of public moneys. They are not paid out of moneys derived from Native lands. Therefore I say that this Board to be constituted under this Bill must be a source of much greater expense to us than the Native Land Court as at present in operation. Now, paragraph 5 of the petition says, " Your petitioners, according to the petition to Her Majesty and to the Parliament of New Zealand, referred to in the preamble to the said Bill, are desirous that the residue of the Native land now remaining in the possession of the Native owners should be reserved for their use and benefit in such wise as to protect them from the risk of being left landless." I have a copy of the petition which was presented to the Queen. [See Appendices.] We say that the measures proposed in this Bill of the Premier's are not in accordance with the reply which was obtained from the Queen to the prayer of Wi Pere and the other persons who sent in this petition. It is only in the most superficial way possible that it in any way resembles the direction received in the reply to the petition, and in a general way right through it does not fall in with that direction. What we want to obtain is the carrying-out of the direction in that reply elicited from the Queen to the petition sent to her. That is all about that. I shall now refer my remarks to certain sections in the Bill which are not referred to in the petition. Paragraph 3, (h), of the petition says, "That your petitioners have many other specific objections to the Bill, or particular sections thereof, which they propose to set forth when this their petition comes under the consideration of your honourable House." Sections 11 and 12 of the Bill refer to the adoption of the Act. I will read them. 11. The Chairman: Ido not think you need read them. The Committee has a copy of the Bill before it, and it will be sufficient if you point out your objections to the sections.—Very well, I will make my objections. According to section 11 it appears that the Act shall not be adopted in any Native land district except at the request of the Native owners. That is to say, unless they request it the Act shall not be brought into operation in their district; but we are apprehensive that notwithstanding their wishes —whether they wish it or not —it will be brought into operation; because one man in a district can do all that is necessary to have it brought into operation, even though the majority of the thinking people of the district are not desirous that it should be brought in. We think it is quite competent for one man, holding a contrary view to the majority, to go and, with the assistance of others who listen to his representations, get the land brought under the operation of the Act in spite of the majority who do not wish it. Now, if an application as provided for by section 12, signed by twenty or more adult Native owners, be received by the Governor, and if after the expiration of twenty-eight days, as provided for by subsection (1) of section J 2, no objection is received after the publication of the petition in the Gazette, then this Board will be broua-ht into operation over the district wherein is contained the land the subject of the petition. Secondly, a district may, and usually does, contain very many more tribes and distinct people than one; and where that is the case it must mean that there will be a conflict of interests and property between the different people contained within one district. Again, if an objection be received

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signed by twenty-one persons to the petition signed by the twenty persons, the Governor and his Council must be satisfied in their own minds that the twenty-one objectors have reasonable and justifiable grounds for objecting to the petition of the original applicants. Then the Governor refers the matter to be voted for in the district which it is proposed to bring under operation of the Act —that is to say, to be voted for or against by the people of that district. I say that such a proceeding as that is offering a premium to all sorts of trouble, and cannot result but in quarrelling and disagreement and heavy expenses. The people are bound to be divided, and those who are interested, will be called upon by people holding extremely opposite views. One will say, " Come with us and have the Board put into operation in the district " ; and the others will say, " Do not have anything to do with it." When the result of the poll is known, if the majority of the votes are against the Board being brought into operation in the district, then the petition of the twentyone to the Governor to have the Act put into operation is of no effect. The trouble is this: that if the petition signed by the twenty-one original applicants to the Governor to declare the Act in operation in a given district is opposed, and the result of the voting called for by the Governor afterwards disagrees to that, that does not put a stop to it. After the lapse of six months the persons desirous to have the Act adopted in a district can apply again in the same way; and the same process can go on year after year every six months, and there will be no end to it. I shall ask to be allowed to read subsection (6) of section 18 : "The Board may expend money in laying off, forming, and maintaining roads or streets, making surveys, and opening up land for settlement, and for any other purpose authorised by this Act or the regulations thereunder." I think that all Native tribes in this country are of one mind in saying this : that the present laws in connection with Native-land survey have been one of the most powerful factors in swamping Native lands with debt. The practice is that the laws in connection with the survey of Native lands which are now in force, when large blocks of land of 40,000, or 50,000, or 60,000, or 90,000 acres are surveyed, are causing the people to continually weep about what has been done. Now, what will be done under this Bill after all the lands already surveyed will have been cut up into small pieces, some to be leased and some to be settled upon ? I think that this will show that the revenue accruing from each of these blocks will not be sufficient to pay the cost of survey. 12. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] How are the surveys paid for now?— Well, as to how the expenses of survey are paid for now I can only speak as to my own district. When the survey cost is made a charge on a block, and also the cost of investigating it, it means that a portion of the block is cut off to pay the cost of surveying, leaving the balance to the owners. It is a poor country where I come from, and if this Act is brought into operation there, and the lands are cut up into small pieces, when it costs so much to make the original survey, how much more will be the expenses under this Bill ? The land is too poor to bear the expenses. I think that, having given our views on the various sections and clauses of this Bill, to which I have referred in my remarks up to the present, and having explained my objections to them, and to the evils which we anticipate will result from them, there is no occasion for me to remark on the remainder of the sections, because they are all bad. Now, sir, in support of our objections to this Bill I should like to be allowed to add a few words, apart from any reference to the Bill itself. I have endeavoured to show that there are many reasons why this Bill is not at all satisfactory; and, sir, my first reason for saying so is this: There was a Bill taken round the country and exhibited and explained to the Natives at different huis and meetings in different parts of the country. It was quite a different Bill from this. There was one hui in the Waikato, and the Premier went there. There was a hid at Waipatu. Mr. Carroll went there and the Premier also, and there they showed the Native people the original Bill. Then, again, there was the kotahitanga hui at Papawai. There the Bill was called the proposed Native Protection Bill, and it was a very different Bill from this. The Bill which was taken round by the Premier to these various meetings contained twentyeight clauses. The Bill which was brought round by the Premier and Mr. Carroll and explained to the Natives at these various meetings was a very different one from this. The Natives were told that the Government wished to protect the Natives and to maintain them in their lands, and that was the purport of the Bill which they were going to introduce to Parliament. But when the real Bill is brought down we find that it contains forty-nine sections instead of twenty-eight, and to these fortynine sections are added six Acts which are already in force. I have explained in reading section 47 the Acts to which I refer, under which this Bill is to be constituted. With these other Acts added it makes this Bill entirely different to that brought round to the huis. I say that shows, firstly, that this Bill has never been shown to the Natives; secondly, it shows that the explanation made of the first Bill which was brought round and exhibited at these huis cannot apply to the Bill which is now the subject of inquiry before this Committee; thirdly, when the original Bill was brought before the hui at Papawai the Natives there drew up a schedule of amendments and resolutions. It was at the Premier's own request and suggestion that the people did this. He said to the people at the hui that he requested them to bring in what amendments they proposed to the Bill. He said, in fact, " The Bill is only a baby, and you must look after its hands and feet to see that they are not out of shape, so that when it grows up it shall be a nice man to look at." Well, sir, the people and chiefs there assembled did the best they could for that baby. They did so, but, unfortunately, now that that has been done, it shows that they were wasting their efforts on the shadow of a Bill when the real body of it was never shown to them. Fourthly, this all goes to show that now is the time for the Premier and those who support this measure to submit it again to the Natives of the country, and ask them to doctor its hands and its feet, for this is the first time that the whole body has been exposed to the people. Before it was only the head that was shown to them. 13. Have you got the amendments which were passed and which you have referred to?— Yes. [Copy of amendments produced. See Appendices.] Therefore I would again refer the Committee to the last clause of the petition, which reads: "Your petitioners, according to the

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petition to Her Majesty and to the Parliament of New Zealand, referred to in the preamble to the said Bill, are desirous that the residue of the Native land now remaining in the possession of the Native owners should be reserved for their use and benefit in such wise as to protect them from the risk of being left landless; but for the reasons heretofore set forth, and for many minor reasons hereinafter to be stated, they feel assured that the purpose they have in view will not be attained by the machinery provided by the Bill now before Parliament." Now, sir, I would'add to that concluding paragraph of the petition these words : " In consideration of the petition which has already been presented to the House, signed by about ten thousand people, objecting to this Bill, and also of the petition in support of the Bill signed by three thousand and odd other people." I would point out that the petition which is apparently in support of this Bill is not really in support of it, but in support of the resolutions arrived at by the hui at Papawai. Therefore it may be said that the ten thousand and the three thousand are all against this Bill. Therefore there is no reason why this Bill should be held over for further consideration. That being so, if the Bill were held over to a subsequent session of Parliament no progress would be made, for they would still object as they do now. I have not got very much more to say. The Parliament of the Colony of New Zealand has now been constituted for many years. Prom the date of its constitution up to the present time successive Governments have continuously made laws with reference to Maoris and Maori lands. In spite of all the laws that have been made and the Acts passed by successive Governments with respect to Maoris and Maori lands, the sad fact which remains is this —and no amount of misrepresentation will alter the fact: that nearly the whole of the lands of the Maoris have been taken from them, and there only remain to them a poor five million acres of land. The millions of acres which have been taken from the Maoris during all these successive years since the first Parliament have been taken through the medium of the measures built up by successive Governments in order to enable themselves so to do. That was done through the medium of measures passed by Parliaments, by Governments, and companies and other purchasers, but this Bill provides that without going to the trouble of any other forms or observances —of sale, or lease, or any matter of that kind—they are going to seize and appropriate the land without any ceremony whatever. Sir, my opinion is this :It does not matter to me what Government may come into power at any time, and it does not matter how they may propose to legislate for the benefit of the Maori people and redress the wrongs of the Maori people, Ido not believe they will ever do it. First of all, they are afraid of the votes behind their backs. They have got to consult that first. Secondly, the pakehas as a people are ever greedy for land, and to prove that I will use this illustration : We, the Maoris, have heard that the present Government have actually brought in an Act to seize and deprive and take away from Europeans, members of their own race, land they have obtained by hard cash. They are going to take it away from them. Certainly they are going to give a fair value for the land, but there is the fact that they are going to take it away from them. Fourthly, it appears to me that the pakehas will never be willing that the Native people should live on the same conditions as themselves —under the same mana and authority, and that the same action and the same consideration shall be shown to the Maori people. Ido not wish to say anything derogatory to the efforts made by the Premier during the many years he has been going about amongst the Maori people endeavouring to find some means to conserve their interests, but what I do say is this : that there must be other considerations behind his back which influence him in such a way that he cannot do what he would like perhaps to see done. If he had only himself to consider, perhaps he might do something for the benefit of the Maori people. Sir, I would ask this Committee why should the Maori people not be shown any consideration. They are decreasing rapidly in numbers. They are only a poor forty thousand, if they are even that. Why cannot such legislation be considered for their benefit as would enable them to preserve the few acres of land that remain to them, and preserve themselves from falling into a worse condition than they are in now ? The fact of the matter is that the Maori, at the time of the first instalment of British rule in this country, was merely a plaything and a sport in the hands of the British Government and its Ministers in the country. I believe that the position was this : that when the Queen heard what a fine lot of people the Maoris were, what a tall and wellmade race they were, and what fine people they were generally, emissaries were sent, and the Treaty of Waitangi was signed, with the intention to protect these people so that they should not be treated as other races in different parts of the world had been treated, when they would simply have been shot down and destroyed. Whether that was the reason why she gave the Treaty of Waitangi, or whether it was that the people who went Home from here first said what a magnificent race the Maoris were, what fine men their chiefs were, and what magnificent women there were, whether it was for that reason that special consideration was to be shown to the race I cannot say. I have been told that it was the early missionaries who were first instrumental in representing to the Home authorities that the Maoris were a fine people, and that it was desirable to preserve and protect them as they were only few in number, and the result was the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi. I believe that if it had not been for the good reports sent Home by the early missionaries in this country to the people at Home, which resulted in the drawing-up of the Treaty of Waitangi, it is quite reasonable to suppose that there would perhaps be no Maoris now. I believe if this had not been done we should probably have been treated as other primitive races I have heard of have been treated by European people—tied up together and used as beasts of burden, and treated in the most cruel manner. I say to you, Mr. Chairman, and to the members of this Committee, that if this Bill is passed as it is by this Parliament and becomes law, I am perfectly sure I am correct in saying it will not take many years before the Maori people of New Zealand, as the direct result of the passing of the Bill, will be exterminated. Sir, the Maoris do not understand how to work and make money for their living as you pakehas do. They do not understand it from the same point of view. It would take fifty years to teach them, and then at the end of it only one or two. would understand, and those very imperfectly ; but the great majority would not learn. I may

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conclude by expressing my good wishes to you, Mr. Chairman, and to the members of the Committee. I feel that it is not improbable that the Committee or some of its members will be wearied at the lengthy address I have given. If that is so, I can only say to the Committee that they are not wrong, because lam labouring under a great personal sorrow as I stand here. My mother was only buried last Saturday. I ought to have been there at her funeral; I should like to have been there, but as I had been delegated to come here by various influential people, representing different tribes in different parts of the country, I felt my duty was here ; therefore I remained. Still I should have liked to have seen her. The Chairman : As Chairman of the Committee, but speaking for myself, I may say that I have been very much pleased with the address which you have given. I have gained a considerable amount of information, and I do not think the Committee is at all wearied with the address. 14. Captain Bussell.] What people do you represent?—l represent the Ngatiraukawa, the Ngatimaniapoto, the Wanganui, the Arawa, and my own tribe, the Ngatituwharetoa. I have written instructions from them directing me to represent them here and to watch their interests. 15. About how many people do you represent? —I could not say exactly, but I think more than half the ten thousand people who have petitioned against the Bill. 16. What were the ages of the people who signed the petition against the Bill —I mean were many of them young ?—I am not in a position to answer that. They wrote their names at their different kaingas. I could not say whether they are young or old people. 17. Have you no general idea of their ages ? —As to the petition of my own particular tribe, I know it is the case that some are young —young people who have arrived at years of discretion and know how to write. They are interested in lands owned by them and which it is proposed to bring under this Bill. 18. Do these signatures represent on the average two for each signature or three for each signature, or what number do they represent ? It would, of course, depend upon their ages whether they were heads of families, when they would represent several people; but if they are only children of twelve or thirteen years of age they would only represent themselves ?—Some of the petitioners would represent four or five persons. 19. I understood from you that the signatures to the petition in support of the Bill were mostly from persons who had parted with their lands : where do they come from ? Are they spread over different parts of the country? —Well, the East Coast. I explained yesterday that they were persons whose lands were under the operation of other Acts. Ido not wish to be understood to say that they had no land whatever that might be affected by this Bill. I know that Wi Pere has other lands than those which are under the special legislation passed on his account. 20. Have you any idea why the people whose land is only small in quantity should support this Bill at the present time ?—Of course, I should have to reply to that question in this way : If these people have no land of their own, their only object in supporting the Bill is that it does not affect them, and they have no hesitation in supporting a Bill that will affect other people. 21. Do you represent the intelligent minority or the unintelligent majority?—l represent the people who have knowledge and intelligence. 22. Can there be any conflict of interests between the leading men and the inferior men of the same tribe—will this Bill affect them in any particular way ? —Well, the question upon which I anticipate there will be trouble is that of the division that there will be among the people when there is a proposal by some to bring the land under the operation of the Board and others try to prevent its being brought under the Board. 23. Do you mean that the people with small holdings will be able to override those who have the principal holdings ?—Yes ; that is so. That is, in fact, what is meant partly by that paragraph in the petition which says that the people with small holdings support the Bill to the detriment of the people with large interests. It is the people with small interests in the different districts who are particularly anxious to have this Bill brought into operation. 24. You told us you were afraid of the constitution of the Board ; do you fear that the Commissioner would use undue influence over the Native people, or why do you fear the Board ? —Lest he should use his function as Chairman of the Board to further the interests of the Crown instead of the interests and wishes of the owners of the land. 25. You think, in fact, that the influence of the Commissioner would be used for the Crown rather than for the Natives ?—Yes; that is what I understand. 26. Would it suit your views if the European members of the Board were, if possible, elected rather than nominated by the Crown ?—No ; I do not see that that would make much difference. In fact, I should still fear that the decisions of the Board would be in favour of the Crown instead of the Natives, and one of the reasons for my saying so is that the numerical strength of the pakeha members of the Board would still be greater. 27. You think the general result would be that the three European members of the Board would vote one way and the Maori member the other ?—I think so. 28. Then, I understand the Natives you represent object to the Bill altogether ?—Yes. 29. They do not want to amend the Bill; they want to throw it out and have a Bill on different lines ?—Yes. 30. Then, would the Maoris agree to any principle by which titles shall be allocated to families or individuals ?—Yes; we would agree to some such scheme as that if we were allowed to arrange it as we thought it ought to be, and then submit it to Parliament for its approval. 31. Then, with regard to the lands which it was not necessary to allocate to the family or the individual, would you wish that that remainder should be administered by the Board, or by whom ?—What the Natives propose should be done with the balance of the land they are unable to work themselves is that they should be allowed to lease it, as provided in the petition to the Queen,

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32. They would agree that all land should have a title bestowed upon it somehow ?—To the Native owners, yes.' 33. Are you prepared to allow the cost of the ascertainment of the title to be borne by the land ?—No ; that expense should be borne by the colony. There is a sum of £7,000 a year regularly set apart by the Queen for her Maori people. I think that a scheme should be worked out something like the Native Land Court now. 34. But is not the cost of survey a charge on the land now ? —-Yes. It is quite right that should be done, because it is the fact of survey having been made which shows that the Native has a title which is defined. 35. Should it not be charged against the land, so that the man getting his title may know that he is getting a clean one ?—Yes. 36. You told us that thirty-seven thousand Natives wanted to support the Treaty of Waitangi; what did you mean by that ? —That is to say, they wanted to be given the rights they claim to hold under that treaty—the right to manage their own affairs, and make laws for themselves, and rules in connection with the management of their lands. 37. Would you consider it wise to create separate laws for the Maori people and the white people? — No; Ido not say that. I am not responsible for that opinion. That is what is provided for in the Treaty of Waitangi, and in the 57th section of " The Constitution Act, 1852." 38. Do you advocate a different law for the Maoris under the Treaty of Waitangi ? —No. I would not go so far as to say that, but I think the demands which the Maoris make, and the concessions they ask for, should be granted to them by the Parliament of this country under the Treaty of Waitangi. 39. If the Natives were intrusted with the management of their own lands, do you think they would be competent to manage them as the Europeans do?—I believe they would. It would be for this Parliament to see that they did so. If the Parliament gave them power to do as they want, it would see that they did it properly. 40. Do you think it would be wise to give them power to deal with their lands as Europeans do?—I think so. 41. Then, in that case, do you understand that, except perhaps making certain lands inalienable, it is not possible to refuse to give them the power to sell?—I think that might be remedied. Give them the control and management of their affairs, but let the Parliament lay down a hard-and-fast rule that all sales shall be stopped either to the Government or to any other person. 42. Then, according to your own words, you want a different law for the Natives from that for the Europeans? —Yes. When you spoke before I understood you to mean a separate Parliament. 43. Does not that tend to justify the Government in bringing in a Bill with restrictive powers? —The restrictions as to sale, as provided by the Premier's Bill, are quite right. I do not cavil against them, but it is the spreading-out of the arms and legs in every direction that we object to. Is there anything in the Bill to restrict sale ? 44. I want the general view of the Maoris, and not a discussion on the Bill. Do you think it would not advance the civilisation of the Maori if he was given his own land to himself instead of holding it under a Board ? —Yes. Let them frame the machinery which is to divide the land in that manner. 45. Bight Hon. B. J. Seddon.] Let us make that clear. Is it not subject to the restriction that they must not sell on any account —is not that so? —Yes. That is what we have asked you. We have made continual representations to the Premier asking that a stoppage should be put on all sales of Native lands, even of those that are under negotiation for sale to the Government, but the Premier's reply to us has been that the purchases of the blocks already commenced must be completed. 46. Supposing they fail to lease or to utilise their lands in any way —supposing they are given the right to manage their lands, with the restriction that they shall in no way sell them, and they never lease or utilise them —what then ? —That is just what we want to do. We want the balance of our lands which we cannot work ourselves thrown open for lease or settlement. That is in the congratulatory address to the Queen. 47. Captain Bussell.] Would you sooner the control of the land was vested in the same power —that is, that the title should be individualised and the land placed on the same conditions as Europeans' ? —I think it would be better that they should be allowed to constitute a Board, to be all Maoris, to decide whether they would rather that their land should be individualised and each person's interest allocated, or whether they would agree to hold the land, or whatever they might decide upon ; but that the Parliament should be in the position of a father with respect to the Board, and give its consent to what it might do. 48. Do you disapprove of the idea of giving each man his own land to settle upon with his family ? —I am quite willing that should be so, but the Board should do that itself. The Board should make these regulations and allocations. 49. What I am driving at is this: I want the idea of the Maoris whether they wish to be owners of their own lands, if they have any, knowing they must sooner or later come under the same laws as the Europeans. Are they prepared to face that ? —There is no argument against that. If a Maori desired to have his title issued to him there would be no objection. 50. Then he would be allowed to mortgage or sell ?—The Maori would look upon the Maori as a Maori still. Ido not see why that power should not be given to the Maori if his land were once his own. 51. Do you think the Maori would then go and waste it in any way, and in time become landless ?—lf a man was desirous of doing himself an injury, and cutting his own throat in that way, he could not blame anybody else for it. He would only have himself to blame.

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Friday, 30th September, 1898. Mr. Te Heuheu in attendance : examination continued. 52. Captain Bussell.] I was asking you yesterday as to your objection to the Board proposed to be established under this Bill. You seemed to be in favour of a Board, but not of a Board with Europeans on it. Supposing a Maori Board were established for the administration of Native lands, what size would you suggest should be the area of land with which that Board should deal ? —I should let the Board deal with the whole of the five million acres of land which remain to the Natives, because what I understand by such a Board is a federation of the thirty-seven thousand people of whom I spoke, for whom the Board should act (a sort of amalgamation of the hapus), who should frame the laws under which the land is to be surveyed and subdivided, and provide for the necessities of those persons who are without land, while at the same time it would provide the means by which those who possess land might have their interests conserved. This assembly should have the right to look over and consider the desire of any person who might wish to sell or lease or otherwise dispose of his land —to decide whether it should be done. It is for that assembly also to decide whether it is necessary that the land should be surveyed and divided up among the various families and owners. 53. How many of these Boards do you think there ought to be ?—One. The pakehas have heard a lot about the kotahitanga, a sort of combined federation amongst the Natives, and then there is the Mahuta movement, which is another combination. I understand that this Board would be a sort of representative of them. 54. In other words, you would abolish the Native Land Court and set up a Maori tribunal instead?— Yes ; that is so. 55. If the decision arrived at by that tribunal were wrong, how would that be reviewed or repealed ?—lt would be for them to draw up laws, rules, and regulations for their own control and direction, and if they gave a wrong decision they would have to provide for the redress of any misfortune which might arise through their decision by making a law for such a contingency beforehand. 56. Have you any idea of what the cost of this would be ? —No ; I could not reply to that. 57. Who would pay for it ?—Part of the expense should be paid out of the £7,000 which is set apart year by year for the benefit of the Native people, and such other money as might be decided upon by this runanga Board as required to carry on the working of the system. 58. Was not that £7,000 set aside for the benefit of indigent Natives ?—This would still be used for the benefit of the Maoris. 59. Then, how would you propose to open up the land by roads so as to bring it into occupation? —Let the runanga ascertain and decide how it would be best to do that. 60. Where is the money to come from?— Give the power to mortgage to the runanga. 61. But your desire is that the land shall not be sold, and it is impossible to get a mortgage unless there is something to recover on ?—That is only as things now are. I think if the Board were once constituted and put into the exercise of its powers a means would be provided to meet all these necessities. 62. Supposing you cannot have a Board entirely of Maoris, would you prefer a Board of pakehas and Maoris, or would you have the individual rights of the Natives—in other words, which would you prefer, a Board with pakehas on it or absolute independence ?—What I am willing to agree to is what the kotahitanga decides upon. They should frame such laws and regulations as would prevent the lands passing away from the Natives. 63. Ido not wish to put you into any corner; I simply want to get an expression of opinion from yourself as to what ought to be done ?—Of course, what I say is this : that if the powers I ask to be given to this runanga are denied to it, then I do not know that there is anything else that I can agree to. 64. Then, you want the Maori Board or nothing ? Mr. Kaihau: I understand that what the witness said is that he wanted to see the members of this kotahitanga all Maoris, and that they should make such regulations as would control the land, and prevent wrongful sales, and so on. 65. Captain Bussell.] My object in putting my questions is this : We are trying to frame legislation for dealing with Native lands, and it is no use to suppose that Parliament will give power to a body of which it knows nothing. If the witness had a choice between a pakeha Board with Maoris and the individualisation of the titles of Natives which would he prefer?— What I say is this : I cannot see my way to say that I agree to any other arrangement than that which I propose, because, as I have already explained, successive Governments for years past have been legislating, as they say, for the benefit of the Natives, and the proof that that legislation has not been for their benefit is that most of their land has passed from them. 66. You objected to the Board as proposed under this Bill having the right to deal with succession, because, as you said, the Natives would be interested in that succession : is that the case ?—I will explain what I meant by that. What I said is this : that, as I understood the Bill, Boards would be constituted to operate within particular districts, and that two of the members of the Board would have to be men who owned land in that district, and of necessity these men must be interested parties in any question that came before them. I gather from the Bill that no Board can exercise power outside its own district. 67. I should like you to bring your mind back to the question of the constitution of Boards for moderate-sized districts, and then I would ask you whether, if there were these moderate-sized Boards, would it not be well to allow them to define the interests of the different hapus, and then let these hapus subsequently divide their interests amongst themselves?—l am sure that if the runanga is given the authority asked for, it will find out ways and means by which all these things can be done.

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68. I want an expression of your own opinion as to whether that would be a good thing or whether it would do harm ?—I think it would do good. 69. Do you not think that it would be in the interest of the Native people, and give them an incentive to active effort, if each man and his family were put upon land, and he had to labour as a European does for himself and his children?—Oh, yes, I quite admit that. I am quite willing to express my own opinion as believing that if that were done it would probably offer the incentive suggested; but it should be the kotahitanga who should make these arrangements. 70. Is it possible for one large Board to administer the titles throughout the whole country? Would it not require local knowledge and local Boards ?—That is quite so. If the runanga decides that it is necessary to constitute separate small Boards to deal with separate districts, let it be done. 71. Would it not be well that some distinguished white man should help and guide them in that ? Ido not mean to override them in their action, but to help and guide them ? —I think it would be perfectly right and perfectly proper that European members should be appointed to these Boards, if the Maori Council so decided. 72. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] You admitted yesterday that the message sent to the Queen was from yourselves ?—Yes; but when I say " yes " I only use the word as a general reply to the question, because I myself did not sign the message personally. 73. In that message it is stated, " We, your Maori subjects, desire therefore to retain and utilise our surviving lands ourselves, and any portions we may not be able to cultivate we are willing, and will be pleased, to lease for the purpose of settlement and the development of the colony." Are you willing to agree to that?—l am entirely willing to agree to that, provided it is what is decided upon by the runanga. 74. I want you to leave aside the runanga—l want you to give me an answer whether you, as an individual, will admit that that is a good principle ? —Well, I do not see how I can leave any reference to the kotahitanga out of my reply, because this address itself was drawn up by the kotahitanga. 75. But are you not in favour of some such principle—that is, that the balance of the Native lands shall be utilised by themselves firstly, and what they cannot so utilise shall be leased on some principle for settlement and the development of the colony ? —Yes ; but what I contend is that this Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill does not give effect to what is outlined in this message. That is why we object to the Bill. 76. Very well; what will give effect to that principle ?—Mana, or power given by this Parliament to the runanga to make laws, rules, and regulations to control these matters. 77. Then, you think the only solution of this question is by Parliament giving power to your confederation to make what laws they think fit for the administration of the Native lands ?—That is so. 78. Do you not think the Parliament would, first of all, before it gave you that power, ask you to make it clear on what lines you are going to legislate ? —The whole matter has already been explained to you, Mr. Carroll, personally, and you are in possession of the information. The Chairman: But the Committee wants the information. Mr. Kaihau : Ido not think the Parliament are children. I think they know perfectly well what the Treaty of Waitangi provides, and also what is provided by the New Zealand Constitution Act. As I understand the witness, he claims that under those two laws the Maoris have a right to demand that they shall be allowed to constitute a runanga, Te Heuheu : A Bill called the Native Eights Bill was the first measure drawn up by the Maoris to show what they wanted in connection with this matter. Then there was the Maori Councils Constitution Bill. This is the next. 79. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] I want you to show to the Committee some practical form which you have conceived in your own mind, or which you have thought over, for dealing with the administration of the balance of the Native lands. You state that it is the desire of the Natives that there should be no more selling of land, but that the land shall, in the first place, be used for their own benefit, and, secondly, for settlement and the development of the colony. I want you to give the Committee some idea of how that can practically be given effect to? —If I understand the question, I have already replied to it. I say the reply to such a question* as that is contained in the two Bills —the Native Eights Bill and the Maori Councils Constitution Bill. Now, the Board Bill, for which the Premier and Mr. Carroll are responsible, and which is lying before you, does not contain a single one of the amendments which were brought down for inclusion in it. 80. Leaving these Bills alone, and supposing Parliament were to say to you, " Mr. Te Heuheu, draft some Bill which you think will meet the case, and provide for the better administration of Native lands, and give effect to the wishes of the Maori people," how would you start ?—The first thing I should do would be to provide for the constitution of a kotahitanga to give effect to the wishes expressed in the message to the Queen. 81. The first thing would be to establish a Council for the whole of the colony, as I understand y OU ?—That really has been stated long ago by the Maoris themselves. 82. Ido not want to know what has been done. lam now taking you on step by step. I understand you to say that the first work would be to establish a Council for the colony to carry out the wishes of the Native people ?—lf the Government would only authorise it it would not be long before it would be constituted. 83. Well, now, what would be the constitution of that Council ? Would it be elective first of all ?—The members would be voted for. The machinery for all that has been already arranged for. It was done in 1892. 84. Would you parcel the colony into electorates for the purpose of electing members to the Council ?—Yes; that has already been arranged for.

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85. Then, when that Council is established I presume its members would all be Maoris : that is understood ? —Yes ; but if Parliament empowers them to act they would probably desire to appoint certain pakeha members. 86. You would not disapprove if Parliament constituted a Council consisting of Maoris and Europeans — that is, you would not object to the principle ? —If the Parliament did what the hotahitanga wished I should have no objection; but this measure which you have brought down, and which claims to give effect to the wishes of the kotahitanga, does nothing of the kind. 87. Let us keep to the point. If that Council is once established, will it assume the duties of the Native Land Court—investigate pities to land, make subdivisions of the land, deal with succession claims, appoint successors, and deal generally with all such matters ?—Yes. What I say is this : I want to be understood that, if the kotahitanga should decide that the present Judges of the Native Land Court who are now doing that work should continue to do so, I would say they should ; and if they decided to do away with all the European Judges and appoint only Maoris to deal with their lands, bringing, say, the Ngapuhi Natives to Wellington to deal with the lands of the Wellington Natives, and sending the Wellington Natives to deal with lands in some other place, I should agree to it. 88. You have no idea of a Council except one of Europeans or of Natives only?—I cannot understand the necessity for the question. 89. You say that, if the kotahitanga says the Native Land Court is the better of the two, you are in favour of the Land Court, and if the kotahitanga says it shall be a Maori Council you are in favour of that; then, you are entirely dependent on what the kotahitanga says? —If the Maori Court would cost less, that is what I should be in favour of. 90. Then, in point of fact, it is purely a question of expense with you. If the Native Land Court is less expensive you are in favour of that, and if the other is less expensive you are in favour of that ?—I anticipate, if the Boards were constituted as we propose, it would not cost so much as the Native Land Court. 91. Then, we will take the Council. Supposing it is constituted, and there is a title to investigate, say, in the Wairarapa, would you summon the Council to meet in the Wairarapa, where the land to be investigated is situated, although necessarily some of the members of the Council must live in the north and the east and in distant parts of the country ? —No. We do not propose that the kotahitanga itself should go and hear claims in such places as the Wairarapa, but it would create such rules and laws and regulations for the administration of Native affairs as would provide means for investigating this land in the Wairarapa. 92. Do you mean that the Council is to delegate its powers to other bodies to carry out that work ?—Yes. 93. Then, what other body would the Council appoint: how would it be constituted ?—lt would be whatever the kotahitanga chose to call it. They might call it a Native Land Court, or they might call it a committee, or they might call it a Board. 94. I understand that you want a central authority established by Parliament, to be called a Council, who will have the power to appoint several other Boards in different districts to carry out the work of investigating all Native lands, as is done by the Native Land Court now ? —Yes. 95. Do you think that that machinery would be less expensive than the present Native Land Court?—Of course, that is really asking for an expression of opinion. I can only say I think it would cost less, but if events should prove me to be wrong I cannot help it. 96. You admit this cannot be done without some expense ?—I do not believe it would cost much. 97. Who would have to bear that expense? Mr. Kaihau: Ido not think the question is a right one to ask, and for this reason: that what they ask for is to be given this right in the first place, and their lands will provide the means to carry out the scheme. The witness has already explained that there is a sum set apart year by year by Parliament for Native purposes, but the bulk of the money to pay for the machinery they propose should be constituted would be provided by themselves —the lands will provide the money. Hon. Mr. Carroll: That is exactly what we want to get from him. The Chairman : I think the witness should answer the question himself. 98. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] How do you propose to get the money to pay for the machinery you propose should be established ?—I was asked the same question, or an exactly similar one, by another member of the Committee, and I replied to it. 99. I want an answer to the question put: how do you propose to raise the money to pay for the expenses of these Boards ? —Firstly, there is the £7,000 I have already spoken of; secondly, the Maoris must provide the rest of the money, they must hunt for it somehow, they must get it in some way or another; thirdly, their land should bear the expense when they get it into their own hands and make the laws with regard -to it. They must administer it in such a way as to meet all these demands, and this Parliament should provide ways whereby the Natives will be enabled to get means to provide for this machinery—something similar to what this Bill provides—■ means whereby the Board can borrow money. 100. On mortgage? —Yes. What we object to in the provision made for mortgage in the Bill is that the Government side has too much power. The second objection, apart from that part of the Bill, is that it does not provide that the Natives shall first sanction the borrowing on mortgage. 101. I want you to put the Bill on one side. For the present we will say that the Bill is a bad one, and we will put it on one side. Now, we want something in place of it. You say that you are quite agreeable that the expenses incurred under your system shall be- borne by the land, and that the Natives will find the money ? —lf the kotahitanga decides that the land shall find the money, yes. 102. How do you propose to raise this money? Are you in favour of levying a rate on Native 3—l. 3a.

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lands to provide the money ?—That is a very difficult question. All I am prepared to say now is that the kotahitanga must provide means whereby they are to carry out the work, and whatever they decide upon in that respect I shall be agreeable to. 103. Then, you will not take any responsibility in indicating to the Committee how this money shall be raised, or anything beyond this : that the whole matter shall be left to the Council ?—lt is for no other reason than this: that the kotahitanga has not been given power yet. If that body had the power, then it would be its duty first of all to discover how the Natives are to meet this liability. 104. Very well; if the runanga had that power, and if it found it necessary to raise several thousands of pounds to pay for these objects, and it decided that the Native lands should pay for them, what system of collection do you think the runanga would bring into force ? Would the Council impose a uniform tax on the land, or would it pass a Eating Bill ? Mr. Kaihau : I do not think the witness quite understands the question. 105. The Chairman.] Perhaps I can put it more clearly. Supposing he was a member of the Council, what would he be prepared to propose to the Council for the purpose of carrying on the system ?—I think if the runanga decided that it should be done there would be no objection to putting a tax on. 106. That is not an answer to my question. If you were a member of the Council, what would you suggest to the Council to carry on the work? Which side would you give your vote on, for or against a tax ?—lf I saw reason to support a proposition to impose a tax I should support it, and if I saw reason to oppose the imposition of a tax I should oppose it. 107. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Then, besides taxing, do you think that the Council, if necessary, might mortgage to raise the money ?—Yes. If that was the desire of the Council I should also desire it; but, speaking now on my own responsibility, I think that is what should be done—the land should be mortgaged. 108. Captain Bussell.] What security would you give for the repayment ? —The land. 109. Then, the land might be sold if the money were not repaid ? —That is why I say the runanga should carefully go into these matters and frame such rules and regulations for the control, disposal, and mortgage of the land as they think fit, with the consent of the owners. 110. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] We will now touch upon new ground. You have referred in your evidence to the precis of the Bill which was circulated by the Government and taken to several Native meetings and discussed there?— Yes. 111. You said that what the different meetings had approved of, with certain amendments, was what the Government had first issued and distributed and exhibited at these places ?—Yes. 112. And your objection to the present Bill is that it does not embody those amendments —in fact, that it is a different Bill ? —I do not think I said that. I said this Bill was not the same as the first one. 113. Did you not say that your objection to the present Bill was that it was a totally different one to that you approved of ?—No; I did not say that, I was opposed to the first one, and when the second one was issued afterwards I was opposed to that also. 114. Have you not had some experience in the working of the Native Townships Act ?—Yes. 115. Are you in favour of that Act ?—Well, of course, what I must say is this : I am not responsible for that Act; I did not frame it. If it is wrong it is Parliament that is to blame for it. When it came before Parliament I tried to get certain amendments inserted, but they were not agreed to. The other things which were put into the Native Townships Act were put in outside. I am not satisfied with that Act. 116. You may not be satisfied with it, but have you any objection to the principle or working of it ?—No ; 1 have not made any objection to Parliament yet. 117. You are aware, of course, of the principle of that Act, which is, shortly, that it takes up a certain portion of Native land and cuts it up to form a township. The sections are leased on certain terms, a Board is appointed consisting partly of Maoris and partly of Government officers to control the land, and reserves are made for the Natives of a certain percentage of the land ? —■ Yes. 118. The Act is in force in your own settlement, and a township is formed there : can you say from your own experience whether it is working well ?—Nothing, as a matter of fact, has been done under it yet, except what the Government has done, and if I were to object to it now that it has become law Ido not see that my objecting would be any use. All that it is competent for me to do now is to endeavour to make it better. I asked the Chief Surveyor to give authority to the Maoris to constitute a committee, and he agreed to it. I also asked the Chief Surveyor to have the principal puias (hot springs) in the township reserved for our benefit, and he did so. It is because it has been amended so far as that is concerned that I agreed to go upon the Board of management —not that I saw anything special about the thing to .recommend it, but simply that it is a little better than it was. 119. How would you improve it now at the present time ?—Well, it is only a matter of new birth at present, and you do not know how it may grow yet. 120. It is only when you see objections that you take any notice ? —Yes. 121. I wanted your opinion with regard to that Act, because it contains principles which to a certain extent may be said to be akin to those of the Bill which we have before us. You said something about the Treaty of Waitangi: now, I want to get a tangible idea of the Maori opinion of the Treaty of Waitangi ?—My reason for referring to the Treaty of Waitangi during the last two days, when I have been giving evidence before this Committee, was to bear out what is asked for in the petition. I understand I am asked what is the opinion of the Maoris as to the Treaty of Waitangi now. 122. What do they expect under it?— They expect redress of their grievances, because that

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treaty assures to them their right to manage their own-affairs to the best advantage to themselves. That is what they want to do. 123. I will read article the second of the treaty: "Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the chiefs and tribes of New Zealand, and to the respective families and individuals thereof, the full, exclusive, and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries, and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess, so longas it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession ; but the chiefs of the united tribes and the individual chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of pre-emption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate, at such prices as may be agreed upon between the respective proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them on that behalf." Is that what you refer to?— Yes. I have pointed out that it is under this article we ask for the appointment of the runanga. We want effect given to that article. Paragraph 3(c), of our petition says, " that such proposals are contrary to the letter and spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi, and to the rights of the Natives as British subjects." 124. Very well; we will take the first part of that article, "Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the chiefs and tribes of New Zealand, and to the respective families and individuals thereof, the full, exclusive, and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates." Has that been broken ? I know it is said by the Natives that the Treaty of Waitangi has been trampled on ; I ask you, has that been broken ?—I will give my own opinion. Yes ; the first provisions of article the second of the treaty have been broken. 125. How ?—lt has been trampled on in this way : that it has never been given effect to. The rights which that article assures to the Natives have never been given to them. 126. Have they not got titles to their lands?—Oh, yes ; that is so; but it was all done by the pakehas, every bit of it. When first Parliament sat in Auckland it was all Europeans, and there were no Maori members. When the Maori members first came into Parliament they did not know what was being done. They simply did as they were told. 127. Has not the Crown given the Maori people a title to their lands where it has been proved? —Yes ; as the Crown saw fit. 128. Wherever they proved that the lands belonged to them and not to anybody else ?—Yes but I should like to point out that the Maoris only acquiesced in this arrangement simply because of their utter ignorance of what was being done. The Crown would suggest that a thing should be done in a particular way, and they said, " Oh, aye," because they did not understand. I know that for many years subsequent to that—and, in fact, the practice still exists—the Maoris have held huis and meetings to devise some means to enforce their demands. 129. Is not that carrying out the spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi? —What I say is this: The first thing that brought home to the Natives that they were being had was this : A law was passed empowering the issue of Crown grants to one or more on behalf of others, and they discovered it was competent for these Crown-grantees to sell the land to the detriment of the other owners, and the Natives did their best to put a stop to that. The first concession—and, in fact, the only concession—they got was that it was then provided that the name of every Crown-grantee should be written on the back of the title—the memorial of ownership or the certificate issued under the Act of 1867 : I do not remember the name of the document. It was owing to the cry of the Maoris that the original Crown-grant system with only ten owners in the grant was done away with, and this was put in its place. Then the Maoris found another cause for crying, and the redress they got was the certificate of title, putting all the owners of the land in it. Then, there was an Act passed in the year 1873 ;I do not remember the name of it, but it affected the Native lands. The cry of the Maoris has been that they should be allowed to make the law themselves under the rights conferred upon them by the Treaty of Waitangi, but the Crown holds on to all these privileges, and refuses to surrender them, and only gives little trifling concessions to the Natives. From then up to the present the Government has continued to act in the.same way towards the Maoris. So now all we say is this : You people have had the control and disposal of 'these lands for a long time, and you have proved that you cannot use them for our benefit; they have slipped away from us continually. Give us the control ourselves; we ought to be considered. 130. I suppose they have all sold interest in some of their lands in their time ? —I have. 131. Under what power did they sell: was it under the Treaty of Waitangi?—That is why we inserted this clause in the address to the Queen: " This, however, our wish, desire, and request can only be given effect to by passing such legislation prohibiting for ever the sale of our surviving lands to the Crown and private persons." 132. Then, you want to alter the spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi ? —Only with regard to that part of the Treaty of Waitangi which cedes to the Queen our rights. 133. And your power to sell your lands ? —Yes ; and to immediately put a stop to the Crown purchases by the Land Purchase Office. Although this has been submitted strongly to the Government, they do not put a stop to land purchases by land-purchase officers. They still go on mopping up the land. Hon. Mr. Carroll: You could only do that by passing a Bill. Up to the present the Government has stopped entering into new purchases. We have listened to that part of the Natives' request, and if we can arrive at a better understanding with the Natives we will stop the others too.

Tuesday, 4th Octobee, 1898. Mr. Te Heuheu in attendance: examination continued. 134. Mr. Monk.] You expressed yourself, I thought, with a touch of sarcasm, that the Queen or the English Government had heard that the New-Zealanders were fine men and women, and so they came and took possession of the country ?—No; I did not intend to be sarcastic. I was

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merely repeating what I had heard, and that that was,, in fact, what took place : that a description of the country and of the people had reached Home, and it was then decided that the Maoris should not be allowed to be killed off. I do not know the names of the missionaries who were instrumental in the attainment of that. 135. I merely put that question for the purpose of putting this further one: do you think the Maoris have been benefited or otherwise by the English Government making arrangements with the Native people under the Treaty of Waitangi?—Do you mean under the provisions laid down by the Treaty of Waitangi ? 136. Under the suzerainty or government by Great Britain being assumed over the colony— have they been benefited or otherwise by it ? —I am asked to give my opinion as to whether the Maoris have derived a benefit from those proceedings ? 137. Yes, or otherwise?— Well, I think they have suffered injury instead of benefit. What I believe is this: that the Treaty of Waitangi, as agreed upon, would have been for the benefit of the old people who lived in that day, but that subsequent proceedings which were undertaken on the basis of the Treaty of Waitangi were wrongfully undertaken, and did not operate for the benefit of the Maori people. 138. We will come to that presently. I want to ask you now, supposing the English Government had not stepped in—if this country had been left free to the Maoris, or taken by some other nation—the French, for instance —who would not have treated them as well as the English people, what then? —Oh, yes; I quite appreciate the fact that this country having come under the sovereignty of Great Britain —the mana of the Queen —and the Treaty of Waitangi having been drawn up for the benefit of the Maoris, is partly responsible for there being so many Maori people as there are at present. 139. You profess to be familiar with the Treaty of Waitangi ? —Yes. 140. Have you given consideration to the last clause of that treaty ?—No; I have not got a copy of it. 141. I want to see whether you have a grasp of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi?—l do not profess to know all about it. 142. I will read the last clause to you : " In consideration thereof Her Majesty the Queen of England extends to the Natives of New Zealand her royal protection, and grants to them all the rights and privileges of British subjects." Have you any objection to the last line of that article ?—I think I referred to them on the first day of my giving evidence. 143. No; you did not —not to that last part ?—I look upon those words as supporting the second article of the treaty, to which I referred in my first statement. 144. Just so; then, do you consider that your proposition for this special Native Board would be in harmony with the practices and usages of Europeans under our Government —that is, the administration which the Europeans are receiving ? Are you not wanting a different treatment for the Natives to that which the Europeans are receiving by the proposition to appoint this Board? I think it would be carrying out the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi in so far as they assure to the Natives the right to the control and management of their own affairs. 145. But why do you want a special Act for that ? I have the management and control of my own affairs, and I do not want a special Act to enable me to do it—in fact, I wish it not to be interfered with by legislation ?—ls that a question also ? 146. Yes ; I will put it in another form : Supposing you have a plantation and a farm, and they are individualised, would you think it a right system for some one to come and tell you how to manage them and what to do with them; and what applies to your homestead applies also to the affairs of the Natives generally ?—What I say is this : Certain laws have been passed originally on the basis of the Treaty of Waitangi whereby the ascertainment of ownership and so on is proceeded with, and titles are issued for the lands of the Natives, and they hold them by law, and the Maoris are entirely with the law up to that point; but then other provisions, and other laws, and. other regulations which prevent them from doing the best they could do for themselves with these lands have been passed, and that is what they want to see done away with. That is why they continually cry out for power to make regulations for themselves in these matters. 147. That is clear and right, and I admit it. Then, you wish to say the Treaty of Waitangi has been violated by the laws which our Parliament has passed ?—Yes. 148. I noticed when Captain Eussell was examining you you seemed to give no definite reply, as if you had not thought out all the difficulties which would accompany the carrying-out of the proposal which you desire to have put into effect in having matters left entirely in your own hands ? —Well, the definite proposal to meet the wishes we are endeavouring to impress upon you in connection with this Board Bill is this : When this Bill was first brought down and shown to the Natives at these different meetings it was quite different from what it is now. 149. We have had all that already?—l am leading up to my reply. This Bill is an entirely different measure from the first one. 150. That is not what I want; I do not want you to criticize the Bill. You would have impressed the Committee more if you had come before us with a carefully thought out draft proposal for the constitution of a Board, with carefully prepared suggestions for meeting all the difficulties in carrying out such a scheme as you advocate?—l was just leading up to that. Our present application to the Committee is that this Bill be not proceeded with this session, in order to afford further length of time and opportunity to go thoroughly into the matter among ourselves, and arrive at a definite scheme, which we shall ask at some future time to be substituted for the measure now proposed. When, as a result of our combined efforts, we have designed a scheme, and worked it out to a complete finish, we shall ask to be allowed to bring that before the Committee in lieu of the present Bill. As to its being required of us to give a definite proposal as to what we would wish to be introduced in place of this Bill now, we are not now in a position to do it. We have

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only been in Wellington for a certain period, and only saw the translation recently, and we cannot at such short notice bring down a thorough and complete scheme of what we would like to see in place of this Bill. On the 15th March next there will be held at the place where the Treaty of Waitangi was signed a kotahitanga, and what we wish to accomplish is this : We want to see the Premier there, and Mr. Carroll, and they will advise us, and go into the matter thoroughly with us at that place. 151. I want to see whether the Natives have such a conception of the task they propose to undertake that this Committee will have confidence in their being able to accomplish it if this Bill is thrown on one side. In saying that I am, of course, not saying a word for or against the Bill. Do you not think that, if the Natives thoroughly understand what they are desirous of attaining, it would be better that a few of them should meet together and draft some measure to carry out their proposals than that they should be discussed at this large meeting at Waitangi, when a great deal of general talk will take place, and perhaps nothing else? For instance, finance must necessarily be a chief thing in carrying out their proposals—the surveying of the land, the paying of such a Board as you have mentioned, and all these things. The small Native appropriation of £7,000 a year, which you spoke of as paying for these things—why, it is impossible. Then, there is the raising of the money ; do you realise that you cannot raise the money without encumbering the land, and if you encumber the land how are you going to pay off the debt ? The interest will go on accruing, and how is that to be met ? It will continue to be a burden on the land. Do you not know that the evil under which the Natives feel they are suffering is through their own want of prudence in the management of their moneys and using them without care ? Is it not a fact that it is their own wastefulness which brings them into trouble ? Then, there is one more statement I wish to bring to your attention : is not one of the great grievances under which they are suffering that they are not allowed to get the highest market value for their land ?—That, of course, has been brought forward time and again. It has been represented to the House frequently. 152. Do you think that is in accordance with the Treaty of Waitangi ? —I would point out that in a certain sense it is in accordance with the Treaty of Waitangi—that is, with a part of it—the part which provides for the exclusive right of pre-emption which the Native proprietors were disposed to yield to Her Majesty; but in another sense it is in direct contravention of the Treaty of Waitangi. The purchase of Native land by the Government officers is in accord with the Treaty of Waitangi; but one particular article of the Treaty of Waitangi has never been carried out, and that is that the price of the land to be purchased from the Native owners was to be fixed by both parties. That has never been done. 153. In other words, the Maoris have not been treated as Europeans, because the Government prevents them getting as good a price for their lands as they would have done had they been in the position of Europeans ?—That is our representation made to the Queen : that the Maoris have been wrongfully treated in this matter. 154. Mr. Wi Pere.] Supposing the resolutions and amendments arrived at by the Papawai meeting were incorporated in this Bill, what then ? —I really do not know how to speak to that question, because I do not think it ought to be asked until the amendments have been inserted in the Bill. If they were in the Bill I could understand it, but as they are entirely apart from it Ido not think the question ought to be asked. Secondly, to go on with my reply to the question, I may say that the schedule of amendments and new clauses proposed by the Papawai meeting were the subject of special advice by the Premier. I would point out that it was at the Premier's own suggestion this was done. It was when he asked the Maoris to go through the original Bill and make any suggestions or amendments they wished, and submit them to him before the Bill was finally introduced into the House. As the Premier has not kept his word, what is the use of asking me this question now ? 155. What I am asking the witness is this: If these amendments, or any of them, were incorporated in the Bill, what would he say then ? —I have said I do not want to reply to the question, but it appears lam asked it again. If the Chairman directs me to reply I will. The Chairman : I think it is a very reasonable question to ask, and the witness should answer it. Te Heitheu: Well, as I have to reply to the question, I will reply in this way : I would not accept these resolutions because, although they may be amendments which express the wishes of a certain section of the people who drew them up, they do not express the wishes of the majority of the Maori people in the country, nor were the majority consulted with respect to them. So what I say is this: The Bill should be taken round the country to all the people, and should be considered by them, and then would be the time to arrive at resolutions and amendments. 156. You say you would not agree to this because it is only the outcome of a small section of the people ?—I have given two replies. I say that because only a part of the Bill was first circulated, these amendments by the Natives are as they are; and, secondly, these amendments are only amendments made by a section of the people as distinct from others. There were many people assembled at Papawai, and they split up. Some were in support of the resolutions contained in the schedule and amendments to the Bill, and others said, " No ; this is only uprecis, not the full Bill, to which you are proposing amendments, and therefore that means it is not the Bill itself; the Bill is behind this." Therefore those who withheld from identifying themselves with these amendments waited until they saw the real Bill brought down. 157. I will only give you a short question if you will give me a short reply. You know the East Coast people are in support of this Bill. Now, if this Committee decide that this Bill is for the benefit of the East Coast people, and they wish it, what will you do ? Will you still object to the Bill ?—I say that under no circumstances can I possibly agree to section 11 and section 12 and its subsections down to (7). 158. That was not the question I asked. I said, if the East Coast people are desirous this Bill

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should pass and operate within their district would you still object to it ? —Well, I have replied to that. I say that if sections 11 and 12 and their subsections are passed in the Bill, even if it is only to operate on the East Coast, I shall still object. 159. If those sections are amended ?—Yes; if amended in such a manner as to provide that the people in those particular districts it was wished this Act should operate should have no power to bring control over the wishes of other people who did not wish to have their lands under the operation of the Act, I should say, " All right; have it if you like," but these two sections mean that no land shall be exempt from the operation of the Bill if it once becomes law. 160. But lam asking about the East Coast. What East Coast hapu is it whose interests you are afraid may be prejudiced ?—He apparently does not understand my last reply. 161. You said you would be in favour of this Bill if it did not affect other people : what tribes on the East Coast would it affect ?—I say that if this were passed with respect to the East Coast lands only, even then these sections would affect lands outside, as I understand it, unless they were amended. 162. I have finished asking you that question ; lam asking you another question. I ask what you mean by saying these sections would affect the lands of other people—what other people within the boundaries of the East Coast ? I will ask you this question :Do you confine your reply to lands within the boundary of the East Coast only ? Ido not want to ask any question about the rest of the land? —I still say, No. I would not agree to it unless these sections were struck out. 163. What hapus would this affect ?—All the hapus in the Island. 164. There you go outside again ? —That is, I understand, a proper reply to your question. I say that if this Bill is passed in its present form, with those two sections in it, you may say it will only affect lands on the East Coast, but I say it will affect lands outside. 165. I want you to understand my question; it is the same question : What lands will this Bill affect on the East Coast? —I say I will not agree to this being passed. .I will continue to protest against it being passed even if the people on the East Coast want it in their district. 166. I go on to ask which of the East Coast people will be prejudicially affected if this Bill passes ? In your reply you say it will be all the people. I wish to fence round the particular place —only the East Coast lands—and I wish to know which of the East Coast hapus will be prejudicially affected ? —I do not reply as your question suggests that I should reply. Ido not make any distinction between hapus on the East Coast. Ido not say it should apply to some hapus and not to others. I say if these two sections were struck out of the Bill I should make no objection to its being put into law over all the hapus on the East Coast; but if these sections are not eliminated from the Bill I will not agree to its being passed into law even for the people in the East Coast district. 167. Well, of course my question means that if the sections were altered, and it was made only to operate in the East Coast district; but he does not appear to understand my question. Now, you referred in your statement to Henry Kaihau's Bill: are you in support of that Bill ?—What I say in reference to Henry Kaihau's Bill is really similar to what I say in connection with this Bill. If his Bill, or this Bill, or any Bill will be brought back and based upon the Treaty of Waitangi to carry out that treaty I will support it, be it Henry Kaihau's Bill or some other Bill. But I will say this: that in my opinion Henry Kaihau's Bill is preferable to the Government Bill. But, again, my previous remarks refer to Henry Kaihau's Bill the same as they refer to the amendments to this Bill submitted to the Government by the Natives—it is only the opinion of a section of the people ; the others have not been consulted. 168. There are two Bills before the House. There is this Bill of the Government and there is Henry Kaihau's Bill. Now, supposing Henry Kaihau's Bill is passed by the House this session, what will you do, and what will the people generally do?—lf the House passes Henry Kaihau's Bill I will say it is passed. He is asking such an extraordinary question. He asks, "If Henry Kaihau's Bill is passed what will you do ? " I will say it is passed. 169. I asked the question to ascertain what is your opinion, because in giving evidence before the Committee the other day you told them that you are the only man in the whole of the Island who knows everything. Now, you must not give me a stick and a stone in reply to my question ? —If you asked whether I was opposed to Henry Kaihau's Bill or in support of it I should know how to reply. 170. That is what I mean ? —Now I understand what you mean. I say that if Henry Kaihau's Bill became law it would be a better law than this Bill if passed ; but I will go on to say this : that there are certain provisions in the Bill of Henry Kaihau that I should like to have an opportunity of amending, if it were submitted to meetings of others than those who have been instrumental in drawing it up. I should like now to reply to a statement you made in your last question. You said I came to this Committee and told them I was a man who knows a great deal about everything. Ido not know what you mean by such a statement. I never said that to the Committee. 171. Did you not say in your evidence this : that the people who were in support of the Bill were foolish, and that the people who were opposed to it were sensible people ? And did you not also say those who supported it had no lands ? Now, I will ask you to point out to me who are the people amongst those who are in support of the Bill who have no lands, as you alleged. Who are they ?— [Witness, after overhearing remark made by a Native in attendance :] I must ask the protection of the Chairman from Tuta Nihoniho, who has no right to make sport of me before the Committee. I think if he is admitted here he ought to behave himself, and not try to upset me when I am giving evidence. The Chairman : There must be no Native in the room who interferes with the witness. I will not allow it. 172. Mr. Wi Pere.] Very well, I will not ask the question. You know the Arawa Tribe?— Yes,

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173. Will their lands not come under the provisions of this Bill?—I know that certain of their lands are under the provisions of an Act which, I think, is called the Thermal Springs Act, and I know-also that they have other lands which are not under that Act. I understand that those lands which are under the provisions of the Thermal Springs Act, and which are restricted by them, cannot be brought under the provisions of this Bill; but, as far as their other interests are concerned which are outside the Thermal Springs Act, it would be competent for them to be brought under this Bill. 174. With regard to your own people at Taupo, is it not the case that a section of them would not be affected by this Bill ?—Yes; I know that certain of the lands, the property of my people at Taupo, are under the Thermal Springs Act, and also that there are other lands at Taupo now under the Native Townships Act, and neither of those would be operated upon by this Bill. I know, too, that there are many of the lands of those people outside of these lands that would come under this Bill. The bulk of their lands outside would, of course, come under the provisions of this Bill. 175. Have they signed the petition objecting to the Bill?— Yes. Of course, that objection of theirs refers to those lands belonging to them which are exempt from the provisions of the Thermal Springs Act. 176. What lands held by the Eotorua people are not under the Thermal Springs Act—they have 660,000 acres within the boundary of the Thermal Springs district ?—Well, the Horohoro lands are outside, and the Patetere, also the lands of the Ngatirangitihi, Ngatipikiao, Ngatitura, and Ngatiahuru, and the lands from Horohoro right to Patetere. 177. Are the lands at Horohoro and those other lands outside the Thermal Springs Act?,—l believe so. 178. Who gave Ngatirangitihi Natives land at Matata that you speak of?—-Some the Government gave them; others were their own lands about Tarawera, inland of Te Awaateatua and Matata. All that they got from the Government were little pieces, I believe in recognition of their services in the war —their, bravery and so on. 179. The reason that I ask this question is that I know these people have no land at Matata. What, now, have you to say to the petition from these people along that coast who are in support of the Bill? —I have nothing to say one way or the other. That is what they have done. lam speaking about those who object to the Bill. They have an equal right to object to it with those who support it. 180. I ask a little short question about the people who sent in a petition from the coast, what you think about it ?—I do not think anything about it. If they decide to do that they are welcome to do it. ♦ 181. You said distinctly the other day that even if this Bill were held over and brought up again some other year you would still continue to object to it ?—I remember what I said on that occasion. What I said was this: that if this Bill were held over and brought up again next year or some other year in its present form, my opinion was it would be found the opinion of those persons opposed to it would not have altered a bit; but that, of course, if the Bill were held over with a view to its being altered it was impossible to say. It might be a different measure altogether. 182. I will prove to you from you own evidence what you said. You said, "As I say, there is no reason why this Bill should be held over to be considered at any future time. What we want is to see it struck out —done away with." You said this also : that even if the Bill were brought before the people they would not agree to it ? —What I said was this—l know what I said perfectly well: I pointed out the reasons why the people objected to the Bill. I pointed out the number of sections in this Bill, and the number of sections in the Bill which reached the people, and I said they were not the same Bills at all, and I then went on to draw the attention of the Committee to the circumstance that there were petitions before the Committee from many people in support of the Bill and from many who were opposed to it, and I said, with regard to. those who were opposed to the Bill, that my belief was that if it were held over for another year they would continue to oppose it if brought in again in its present form. I say that if the Bill is brought down next session in the same condition that it is in now it will still be objected to. 183. You say that the Premier's Bill was taken round the country in March last, and that it was exhibited at the Papawai hui, and that the people who are opposed to the Bill commenced to take a hostile attitude towards it then—to the Premier's first Bill ?—At the hui at Waipatu my people who were there—l was not present myself—refused to agree to the Bill. They said, "No ; we have another proposition to make; with regard to our objections, they will be made another time." Then, there was the hui at Te Waipatu, where the people objected. Then at Mahutu's hui, at Wahi, certain people objected to the Bill. Again, at the hui at Greytown/ at Papawai, certain people objected to it also. 184. Why did they object to the Bill then? —Because they did not like it; because it was bad. 185. And why did they not do anything to amend it if they wanted it amended was arranged that when the hui sat at Papawai the question was to be considered. 186. lam asking you about the hui at Papawai? —Well, that alters the question. It is not as I understood it at first. 187. The question, then, is this : Why did not the people who are now objecting to the Bill try to amend it when it was before the Papawai hui ? —The reason was this : They knew the precis they had before them was not the Bill; the Bill was something else, and they were not going to amend what was not the Bill. They wanted to amend the Bill, and when they saw that they would do it. 188. Who said so then?—l was one. I myself said, " That it not the Bill." 189. Did you with your own mouth say that, or did somebody else's mouth say it ?—What is the use of asking that ? It is proved that it is so.

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190. I want to know who was the man who stood up before the hui during the week, or however long the people were there, and with his own mouth said, " Do not let us make any amendments in this Bill, for it is not the Bill at all that we have before us " ? I ask that because you said there is another Bill belonging to the Government which was not before the people at the meeting ? — Many people, of whom I am one, stood up at that hui and said it was not the Bill, and it was no use to amend what was not the Bill. 191. Eight up to the end of the second week when the hui sat did you say that?— That is what I said there. 192. During the first week when the hui sat did you say that ?—During the first week we were being instructed by Wi Pere, Tamahau, and Henare Tomoana as to all the merits and beauties of the Bill, and what we were doing then was listening. We listened and we listened and we listened right through the first week, and the second, and the third to their representations, and they did not give us an opportunity of saying anything, and it was only when I asked the chairman definitely to give me a certain time to speak that they gave me time to say something about the Bill. When I did speak I objected to the Bill as Ido now. 193. This hui took six weeks. How many times did I stand up before the hui when you say I took up the time and you had not time to say anything ? The Chairman : Ido not see that that has any bearing on the question. The question you want answered is, did the witness object to the Bill ? and he says he did. It is not a question of whether it was in the first, or the second, or the third week of the meeting, and it is only wasting the time of the Committee to ask such questions. 194. Mr. Wi Pere.] What I want to show is that he is misrepresenting the facts of the case when he says that they did not take part in the amendments because they knew the Bill being considered by the hui was not the Bill, but a precis of the Bill, and the Bill was somewhere else. It was only after he had come down from there and heard through the interpreters of this House that the Bill was being translated that he went back and told them there was another Bill. Ido not want the witness to be saying what was not the case—that that was the reason they objected, because they knew the Bill there was not the Bill. Paratene stood up and said this was the Bill, and that the Bill which was coming afterwards was merely a sort of elaboration of it. The Chairman : Was this the Bill which was discussed at the meeting at Papawai ? Mr. Wi Pere : It was the same Bill, but it was not that one. The Chairman : Was it the Bill which is before the Committee now? Mr. Wi Pere : No ; it has been altered from what the Bill was at Papawai. The Chairman : That is what the witness has said. Mr. Wi Pere : Yes ; but what I mean to say is this : I want to show the Committee that he is making an incorrect statement when he says the reason he would not take part in the amendments suggested at the Papawai meeting to this Bill was because he knew there was another Bill, whereas he really knew nothing about it for three or four weeks afterwards. It was not until after they had been objecting to the first Bill for three or four weeks that he came to Wellington and learned, for the first time, that there was another Bill, and he went back to Papawai and said that the Bill they were considering was not the real one, as .there was another; and then Paratene got up and said, "It does not matter. It is only an elaboration of the same Bill." Te Heitheu : I should like to object to Wi Pere's statement, except that I look upon it as absolute nonsense and waste of time. 195. Mr. Wi Pere.] I want a man to tell the truth. That is what I want, and I say it was at least three weeks afterwards that he knew there was another Bill, and that the West Coast people had objected to the Bill long before ?—That, of course, is so. The West Coast people had long ago objected to the Bill. The head of the Bill itself declares that it is what I have said it was, merely a precis. When you persisted in asking us to amend the Bill we said, "No ; it is not the Bill itself." When I came here I made it my business to ascertain which was the true view of the case, and I found I was right that there was another Bill. Then I told the Papawai people there was another Bill, and.those people who were supporting the Bill not only argued against me, but they said to me that if it turned out there was no other Bill what would they do. It was as much as to say that I had committed a great crime, and that I ought to go to gaol, or have something horrible done to me for stating that there was another Bill. Wi Pere said that of me, and so did Tomoana. 196. No; I said that there were perhaps elaborations and explanations of the various sections in the precis that would be put in afterwards by the Government ?—Wi Pere almost told me that I was a murderer, and spoke of me as though I was a man who had killed somebody. The Chairman: I think these statements and counter-statements have no bearing on the question. The witness is here to answer questions. It would be far better to elicit the information Mr. Wi Pere wants by questions, not by statements. 197. Mr. Wi Pere.] Very well, I will ask a question. . Are you in support of the Treaty of Waitangi?—Yes, I am; and so is Wi Pere. The Chairman : We only want answers to the questions, Yes or No. 198. Mr. Wi Pere.] You wish, then, that the Treaty of Waitangi should be left to operate on the Maori people : is that what you want?— Yes. 199. And you support it right through in its entirety; that all our lands are to be sold to the Queen ? Mr. Monk : The Treaty of Waitangi does not say that. 200. Mr. Wi Pere.] Are you willing that that provision should be struck out of the Treaty of Waitangi ?—Yes. 201. You want that part of the Treaty struck out?— Yes.

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Wednesday, sth October, 1898. Mr. Te Heuhexj in attendance : examination continued. 202. Mr. Kaihau.] Are you a representative man sent here by the tribes living between the boundaries of the Western and Eastern Maori electorates; that is, in the middle of this Island?— Yes. Long before this Bill was printed and circulated I received letters from the Arawa, and the Ngatimaniapoto, and the Ngatiraukawa, and the Wanganui, and other hapus on the Bast Coast asking me to remain in Wellington and watch the progress of the Bill, and to oppose it. 203. Then, you-are one of the representatives of these nine or ten thousand people to take charge of the petitions which have been sent here in opposition to the Bill ? —Yes ; I have been sent here as a representative of the ten thousand people who are objecting to this Bill, and these are all my fellows in that movement —these people whe are sitting behind me in this room. 204. I think I heard you say during your evidence on the first day that the Premier and Mr. Carroll had gone round with the Bill to interview the Natives and consult them about it in various parts of the country ;is that so ?—I did say so. I said that there were four large huis held in various parts of the Island, to which they went to expatiate to the Natives on the benefits that would result to them from passing the Bill. The first meeting was at Waipatu, and the second one was at Wahi—that is, Huntley; then on the death of Major Kemp all the people from various parts of the Island assembled, and Mr. Carroll was there to lay this Bill before the people who were assembled there at the funeral of Major Kemp. The fourth meeting was at Papawai. Then, after the hui which was held at Papawai rose, many of the people came down to Wellington, and other meetings were held here in Wellington. 205. What did the Maori people, at these, huis, do with regard to the Bill ? What was the position they took up with regard to this Board Bill ? Were they inclined to entertain it, or did they object to it ?—The universal reply given by the Natives at these huis to the representations made by the Premier and Mr. Carroll in favour of the Bill was that they would not agree to it. It was not until the hui was held at Papawai that the people divided, and it was found that a section was in favour of the Bill, provided it was amended to meet their views. 206. You say that when the hui was held at Papawai a certain section of the people dissociated themselves from the others, and were prepared to agree to the Bill if it were amended as they saw fit: were they satisfied with the Bill as it was amended afterwards ?—No. They arrived at certain resolutions and a schedule of amendments which they proposed should be inserted in the Premier's original Bill, and they came here and submitted these amendments to him to be incorporated in the Bill. They did this before the translation of the Bill was issued, but when it was translated and issued they found that none of the amendments or resolutions had been adopted. Now, these people who framed these amendments were all of hapus on the Bast Coast, and none of those who were selected and delegated.by the people of West Coast and the northern part of the Island—embracing the Ngapuhi and other tribes, took part in these amendments : only one from Wanganui, Meiha Keepa's daughter. The tribes who did attempt to amend the Bill were the hapus of the Wairarapa pure and simple, the Heretaunga hapus—Hawke's Bay people—the Turanganui —Gisborne people—and the Ngatiporou ; but, besides that, there were very many hapus of the East Coast people who refused to accept the suggested arrangement. Niniwa's hapus, and Herepete's relatives, and many other hapus, Mohi's hapus, and Te Teira Tiakitai, one of the principal rangatiras of Heretaunga, many other numerous hapus about the Wairoa, and Nuhaka were all strongly opposed to the Bill. They refused to take part in drawing up amendments. The people of the other Island, the Middle Island, refused to be identified with the amendments submitted to the Bill. In fact, my short reply to the question is this : the vast majority, very much outnumbering those who agreed to the amendments, were entirely opposed to the Bill and everything connected with it. 207. Can you give the names of the hapus on the East Coast who were opposed to this Bill?— Of course, the general name of all on the East Coast, embracing the Ngatiporous and others, is Ngatikahungunu, from Wairarapa up to the East Coast. I think the short reply would be that the people are divided right through that district, one section being entirely with the Bill and the other opposed to it. That is why I say to the question which was asked me the other day as to what would be the position if this Bill were brought into operation for the East Coast district only. I say that it would be almost impossible to have it brought into operation there, because the people there are divided —some of them want it and some do not. The proof of what I say is the numerous petitions before the House bearing on the matter. 208. Then, I will ask you this short question : Have you heard of any single hapu or section of the people in the Western Maori electorate who are in support of this Bill? —Not one. 209. From what you have heard, is the opposition taken up by the people in the Western Maori electorate ? Are they opposed to it or not ?—I have already said that the whole of the people in the Western Maori electorate and the whole of the people in the Northern electorate are opposed to it; they are strenuously opposed to it, and a section of the east coast people also. 210. Do you know what the people in the Northern electorate say to this Bill ?—Yes; I have said so. It is because of what I have heard that I say they are opposed to it. lamin a position to know, because I, as chairman of the committee representing the people in opposition to this Bill, have received letters from the principal men. Those letters have been laid before me as chairman of the committee, and therefore I know exactly their views on the matter. 211. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Is there not a witness who is going to speak for the north ? —Yes, there is a witness who is going to speak for the north. lam simply speaking as to my own knowledge now from what I have heard and what I have seen. Herepete Eapihana is here from that district. 212. Mr. Kaihau.] Well, now, what is your own personal private opinion of this Bill?—It is quite right that I should be asked that question. When I gave my evidence on a previous occasion I was speaking as the mouthpiece of the people who sent me here to represent them. Now, 4—l. 3a.

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I understand, you want me to give my private opinion. My private opinion is that lam opposed to every provision in the Bill. I have already explained to this Committee the points upon which the people whom I represent differ from the principles of the Bill. I may say that I myself personally indorse all their reasons for differing from the Bill, and I will go on to give other private reasons for opposing it. The Chairman : I think the witness, when he was making his statement on the first two days, fully stated his own views on the matter. If so, I do not think there is any advantage in his repeating them now. Mr. Kaihau : I am not satisfied that the witness expressed his own personal opinions, and that is why lam asking him the question. I think, if the Chairman will allow me to go on with the question, I will show that I have a reason for it presently. It is leading up to something else. The Chairman : I understood you wanted the witness's personal opinion as to the Bill, and I think that on the first two days he gave it, and also in answer to Mr. Wi Pere yesterday. 213. Mr. Kaihau.] I think the Chairman will see, if he listens to the other questions I am going to put, that he will allow me to ask this question. If the Committee will listen to this question I think they will see the force of the preceding one. Supposing the Premier was to agree to amend this Bill, or supposing he was to agree to its being struck out altogether, which would you prefer of those two actions ? Which would you prefer, to see the amending of the Bill or the killing of it altogether, having seen the evils that will result under the Bill?— Well, you ask me a question which is really two questions, so I must give it two replies. If the Premier says, " Let us amend the Bill," I should be willing to say, " Yes," but I would not be agreeable that it should be done to-day. Let the matter be laid before the ten thousand people who are opposing this Bill now at a general meeting. That is that reply. I fancy I have said so several times already. Now, if the finding of this Committee should chance to be that the Bill should be struck out altogether, I say that what should be substituted in its place now immediately, as Parliament is sitting, is that an absolute stop should be put to the land purchases, and that during the days which will follow the close of the present session of Parliament the tribes should select each its own individual representative and submit a scheme of legislation to be substituted for the Bill now before the Committee. But if that hui of representative delegates of the various tribes in the colony should decide that Henry Kaihau's was the Bill they should adopt, with amendments which would meet their views, then I say that is the Bill which should be passed. 214. I undertood you to say on the first day of giving your evidence, in answer to a question by Captain Eussell, that you objected to the constitution of the Board because it was proposed that there' should be European members of the Board : do I understand you to say that you entirely object to Europeans having a seat on the Board? —Yes ; that is what I said. I said that I thought the Board should be one of Maoris —that Maoris should have the appointment of the members of the Board. However, if the runanga should decide that they should have European members on the Board, I should have no further objection to make. I should say, "As you decide it should be so, let it be so." 215. Do I understand you to say, then, that you would vest in these Maoris power to investigate titles, and lease lands, and do everything else that it is necessary to do ?—Yes ; that this runanga should appoint the people who would be empowered to investigate titles, subdivide the land, and perform all other acts of administration; that this runanga should have the power to appoint persons to manage matters in connection with the negotiation of leases, and so on; that this runanga should have the right to impose rates, and so on, upon the owners of the various lands with which they dealt; that they should do all these things. 216. The Chairman.] How is it that you are prepared to give these ideas with regard to the management of Native affairs to-day when you could not do so the other day ? When Captain Eussell asked you a question on the subject you had no scheme to propose then: how is that ?— Well, I did not understand Captain Eussell's questions to mean what the questions which are now being asked me mean; that is to say, they were not questions I should have to reply to as lam now replying. The members of the Committee who speak English may have understood those questions, but I did not. 217. In reply to Mr. Monk yesterday you stated you were not prepared to give any idea of the provisions of the future Bill to be brought in by the Natives. In reply to a question put by Mr. Monk yesterday you said, " Our present application to the Committee is that this Bill be not proceeded with this session, in order to afford further length of time and opportunity to go thoroughly into the matter among ourselves and arrive at a definite scheme, which we shall ask at some future time to be substituted for this Bill. When, as a result of our combined efforts, we have designed a scheme and worked it out to a complete finish we shall ask to be allowed to bring that before the Committee in lieu of the present Bill. As to its being required of us to give a definite proposal as to what we should wish to bring in in place of this Bill, we are not in a position now to d.O it." Again, "We cannot at such short notice bring down a thorough and complete scheme of what we should like to see in place of this Bill. On the 15th March next there will be held at the place where the Treaty of Waitangi was signed a meeting, and what we wish to accomplish is this: We want to see the Premier there, and Mr. Carroll, and they will advise us and go into the matter thoroughly with us at that place." Now, what I want to bring out is this :If he was unable in answer to that question by Mr. Monk yesterday to give anything definite with regard to this future measure they propose, how is it possible for him to give that definite reply to-day ?—I do not see that I have said anything yet which conflicts with what I said before. It means just the same thing. I think I said what I already said, or meant to say: that if it is decided that the Bill shall be struck out altogether or that it shall be amended be it so. Another reason why I have been able to reply more directly now is that Henry Kaihau has asked me a direct question as to my own individual opinion. Therefore I was able to reply.

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218. You were asked the same question by Captain Eussell, and yet you could not reply to it ? —I should like to have Mr. Monk's question, my reply to which the Chairman has taken exception to, read to me so that I can see where I made a mistake. 219. lam not taking exception to your reply. The point is this : that you said yesterday that you were unable to give any idea of any measure to be brought forward by the Natives in lieu of this Bill at present before the Committee, and now you are asked by Mr. Kaihau to give your own personal views of what would be likely to take place under the proposed Native Bill and you proceed to do so ?—Well, I think the questions were asked me in such a clear way that I understood them better; but I would like also to say, I have said all this before in reply to other questions that were put to me. I think I have repeated over and over again this reply that it must be for the kotahitanga to decide what measures they should propose to substitute for this Bill. Whatever they decide upon so be it; I think I have already said that, even if it is decided that Henry Kaihau's Bill shall be adopted. The Chairman: Then, there is no necessity for your giving your own personal opinions at present. 220. Mr. Kaihau.] You say that you would be willing that the appointees of the runanga should be given the authority to investigate titles to land, to subdivide and make all arrangements for leases, and so forth ; what would you do with the Native Land Court if that is the case ? —I think it would be better if the management of matters was placed in the hands of the Maoris than as it is now exercised by the Native Land Court. I think they would be able to do it less expensively. 221. I will ask you the question shortly: Would you leave the Native Land Court to continue as it is now and the Board also at the same time ? —No. I say there should be only one tribunal to deal with Maori matters. Why should there be two? 222. Then, what would you do with the Native Land Court?—l would abolish it. 223. Did I understand you to say just now that the Maoris should have the right to investigate the titles to their own lands, and they should also have the right to hold rehearings of their own original decisions ? —That, of course, is what it would mean. 224. And you would have the Board approve of maps and authorise surveyors to make surveys of Native lands ?—I have said so: that if this mana is given to the Maoris they will have the right to do all these things. 225. This runanga, or Council, or Assembly, or Board, or whatever it is to be called, is to have the power to appoint Committees ?—These questions as to matters of detail have already been replied to in my first general reply. If the mana is once given to them, of course these will all be parts of their duties. 226. I am asking you particularly about these things so that you can tell the Committee definitely if you think so. Is it this representative runanga which is to have the right to appoint committees ?—Yes ; it is to have the right to appoint committees. 227. And are those committees to have the power to issue orders for the investigation of titles ?—Yes. 228. And are these committees also to authorise deeds, and so on ?—Yes. All these things are to be done. The only thing which prevents this is, that they have not got the mana yet, and they cannot do all these things. If they had the mana they could do all the things. 229. Are they to have the right to appoint a registrar to carry out all the arrangements and to pay their committees? —Yes. 230. The Chairman.] Of course, he would be a Native ?—Yes. I have already said that if they want to have a European officer they can, provided they decide so. If they want to have a Maori let them have one. 231. Mr. Kaihau.] And is this committee to have the power to set aside land for their indigent people, and for any other particular purpose, if they see fit? —Oh, yes; this runanga will have to make all such arrangements as that if it sees fit. 232. Is this committee to have the right to make necessary arrangements about setting apart pieces of land for schools, and so forth ?—Yes. That is a new suggestion. Oh, yes ; they could do that too. 234. Is this the general desire of the people in the Island, or what is it ?—This is it; this is the principal desire of the Maori people all over the Island. Even though some of them have been ostensibly in favour of the Bill, this is really what they wish. Wi Pere, who is here, and Henare Tomoana, and all those who have compromised themselves by supporting this Bill, are the principal people who, since the year 1882, have been most strenuously urging upon the people by various means that some such provision as this about which I am being questioned should be brought in. Taiaroa, M.L.C., of the other Island, also holds the same views. 235. Now, supposing trouble arises as the result of this mana being given to the Maoris to do these things, what Court is to decide? In any case of trouble that may arise, is it Parliament or the Supreme Court, or what tribunal is to decide ?—lf any trouble arises among the runanga, or the Council, or the people appointed to act under its authority, and they were unable to cope with the difficulty, then it would be advisable that Parliament should look into the matter, or for the Supreme Court to do it. 236. You say, then, you are sure in your mind this is the desire of the people all over the Island?— Yes. 237. And you think that if theSe matters are laid before Parliament as you and I have now represented them to this Committee the people all over the Island would accept it ?—All. The reason I am certain of it is because meetings have been held for seven years now, and I have been myself personally at all those meetings, so that I can speak from my own observation of what is the wish of the people.

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238. You say that the whole of the Island would embrace the idea ?—Yes. 239. Now, supposing all these matters that you have said you desire to see accomplished are expressed in my Bill which is before the House, then I understand you to mean that my Bill would meet the desire of everybody ?—They would accept it, but it must be shown to all the people—all the tribes. There might be certain parts of it which they could not entirely agree to, and they would want to amend them. 240. Very well; perhaps you have not heard, or have you heard, that last year a hundred copies of that Bill were circulated among the northern Maori people ? —I heard so. 241. And you also heard perhaps that there were a hundred copies sent to the member of the East Coast district ?—I did not actually hear so, but I have no objection if it was done. Perhaps it was. 242. Then, I understand the witness to mean this : that as he has agreed to all the things I have suggested to-day, and as I say they are all contained in my Bill, and as no objection has been received from any quarter to the provisions therein contained, as now expressed by myself to the members of this Committee, therefore that meets the case ?—Perhaps so ; but only a hundred people perhaps have seen those copies you sent, and probably not more than a hundred people to whom they were sent ever have seen them, and the fact of their remaining silent, as you say in your question, may be the result of one of two causes. It may be that they have no objection to make, and therefore they have made none, or it may be that they refuse to agree to it, and therefore they have said nothing. The Chairman: I would point out to Mr. Kaihau that it is the Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill which is before the Committee, and not his Bill. Mr. Kaihau: I wish the Chairman to understand that lam putting this question because the question put by Captain Eussell was so broad, so vast in area, and it covered so much ground that it was impossible it could be replied to in a short statement. In fact, two, three, or even four replies would not have entirely satisfied what was asked by that question, because it embraced absolutely every single act of detail in connection with the administration we are seeking to obtain. So lam explaining in this way in order that the Committee may understand that this is, as I represent it, what the Maoris want. The Chairman : In other words, you are trying to elucidate the matter. Mr. Kaihau : Oh, no ; lam asking a question of the witness. lam asking him is it so or is it not so, and he answers. lam not suggesting how he should answer. The Chairman : I did not say that. I understand you'are trying to elucidate the matter. Mr. Kaihau : Yes; lam putting the question to the witness in order to impress upon him what I understood the question of Captain Eussell meant, and give him an opportunity of replying. The Chairman : All right; you can proceed. 243. Mr. Kaihau.] I do not propose to ask any more questions on the matter except this one, because I do not want the Chairman to be under the impression that I am taking up any particular attitude with reference to the Bill. This is rather a hard question I am going to ask. Other people may think it an easy question, but I think it is a difficult one. You have made several references to the thing called the kotahitanga : What is it; what does it mean ?-—I shall have to give a lengthy reply to that question. What it means is a combining of all the Maori people in one common desire or end under the mana which was assured to them by the Treaty of Waitangi, and again confirmed by section 71 of the Act of 1852, and further confirmed by the words made use of at the meeting at Kohimarama in 1860 or 1862. This word " ivhakaputahitanga "is not anew creation of the present day. It commenced in the year 1840, when the 512 old men combined there and the other rangatiras outside of these who I believe agreed to the proposal then made. Then we come down to the year 1856, when my grandfather called upon all the chiefs in the Island, including Potatau, to come to Taupo, where a hui was held at Pukawa. It was then represented to the assembled chiefs that they should all combine to one common end under the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi. Potatau was then set up as King. He was to be the post to which were to be tied the people and their lands. He was to protect them under the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi, and prevent sections of the people in different parts of the country from perhaps traversing or acting in contravention of the Treaty of Waitangi or a part of it, and the names of the principal mountains of importance in the particular districts whose representative chiefs were present there were mentioned as proof conclusive of the fact that they had agreed to these things that I am now mentioning. Also my grandfather took part in the setting-up of Potatau to be King for that purpose and that end. These two ivhakaputahitanga which took place at that time are the same kotahitanga that lam now speaking of to-day. That is my reply to the question. I could elaborate it a great deal more, but perhaps I have said enough. 244. Mr. Parata.] You have told the Committee that you do not approve of this Bill as a whole, and you would rather have the Bill rejected ?—lf the Committee decide that the Bill shall be struck out at once, I shall be quite prepared to agree to that; and if the Committee decide that it shall be held over and submitted for further consideration to the people, as I have already said, I shall agree to that. 245. Then, you do not approve of having the Bill amended ? —Not now, because the people whom we represent, the people who have petitioned objecting to this Bill, do not know what sort of amendments we might agree to. The amendments might not fall in with their views if we were to do it at once. 246. You would prefer that the Bill should be referred to this big meeting which is going to be held in March in the northern part of this Island.—Yes. 247. Supposing that meeting do not agree among themselves with the suggestions that you have been submitting to the Committee, what then ?—Give them time to arrive at an agreement.

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248. Lave they not been trying to arrive at some proposal during the last six or seven years ? —No. They are all agreed upon a whakaputahitanga— -that is, common concerted action; but it is the laws which are to govern them, and their rules and regulations, that they have not decided upon yet. 249. Has there not always been a difference of opinion amongst them when they have been trying to come to some scheme of their own; for instance, as to the kotahitanga scheme, is there not some difference of opinion amongst thenl about that ? —No; the only people who have refrained from agreeing to the whakaputahitanga are Te Whiti and Tohu and their people. 250. I suppose you are aware that the great majority of the people in the South Island do not hold with the kotahitanga movement ?—No; I am not in a position to say whether the majority of the South Island people are in favour of the kotahitanga or whether they are opposed to it. I have seen Taiaroa, and I look upon him as the principal chief of the South Island, and he is in favour of it. 251. Are there no other chiefs there equal to the one you have mentioned?—Oh, yes ; I have heard there are other chiefs there. I have heard from my own people. 252. Their offspring also : are they not equal to Taiaroa ; and they do not go in with that proposal ?—I do not know who those chiefs are. I have not been told, so I cannot give a definite reply. 253. You have told the Committee that you think that the lands should all be invested in this great Board constituted all of Maoris ?—Yes. 254. Are you not aware that there is still a difference of opinion amongst those at present in this Island?—l know that Te Whiti and his people hold a different opinion. 255. I mean outside his people ?—I have said that about some of the South Island people. 256. Also, there is a difference of opinion about this Bill, as shown by the several petitions in support of the Bill? —Yes, I know that; but, then, this matter ought to be explained —that it is a misrepresentation to say that those petitions are supporting the Bill, because they are not. They are supporting the amendments which the petitioners themselves drew up to the original Bill which was shown to them, and are not in support of this Bill at all. 257. That shows if this Bill was amended according to the wishes of the Maoris who sent in the petition they would support it ? 258. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] He says all the petitioners are in favour of the amendments, and Mr. Parata says that if this Bill were passed with the amendments they would be in support of it, and therefore a difference of opinion does exist ?—Yes; that is correct. If that was once accomplished, and if he asked me then if the Natives are divided in opinion, I should say Yes. I gave a similar reply to a similar question put to me yesterday by Mr. Wi Pere. Eemember this is what I said in reply to Wi Pere's question : I said, "If you are willing to expunge certain sections —sections 11 and 12 —I would be willing the Bill should be brought into operation so far only as it would affect the people who are supporting it. 259. Mr. Parata.] You told the Committee the other day that you objected to any Bill being passed for a certain section of the Maoris of this Island, even if they desired to have it confined to their own relative districts ? —I do not think I said that. Say it again. 260. You told this Committee yesterday that you would not agree to this Bill, or to any Bill similar to this, being passed for any particular district if they chose to have it confined to their own respective districts, or something to that effect ?—What I said was this: that even if the whole of the amendments which have been arrived at by the Papawai hui were incorporated in the amended Bill, if sections 11 and 12 with its various subsections were retained as they now appear in the Bill I would refuse to agree to it, even as you suggest. 261. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Would you not agree to have a Bill for your side and let the others have what they want ?—Yes, if the sections I object to were expunged from this Bill. If those sections remain in the Bill I will not agree to its being passed for any particular section of the people. 262. But supposing those sections which are in the Bill in no way affect your district—that your district is operated upon by a different Bill, why should you object to this one ?—I do not look upon that as a question. 263. Mr. Parata.] That was what I was going to ask. I want you to put aside the Papawai meeting altogether. We do not want to talk about the Papawai amendments at all. What I want to know is this : Supposing two or three settlements, or even half a dozen settlements, petition this House, and say, " We agree to this Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill applying to our districts, only with certain amendments," would you object to these different settlements having the Bill confined to themselves ?—I should not object if it in no way affected other people and their lands. It is the same reply that I have already given : that if the amendments agreed to at the Papawai hui were incorporated in the Bill, and sections 11 and 12 with its subsections struck out, I should not have any objection to that Bill being brought into operation in particular districts where it is asked for. My present reply is just the same in other words. 264. You said just now, when Mr. Kaihau was asking you some question, that there was a big meeting called at Taupo, and it was decided there that Potatau should be King for the whole of this Island ; that all the lands should be administered by him, and the whole of the actions of these people be under his guidance ?—Yes. I said that each rangatira gave the name of his mountain as a sort of anchor that supported what he said. 265. How long did they continue their confederation ?—Seven years afterwards, in the year 1863, trouble arose. 266. Who created that trouble : what tribe created that trouble who were under the King?— The trouble commenced in the Waikato. 267. Where the King was established?—Ngaruawahia is where the King was residing then.

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268. Were the East Coast combined people under that confederation which was made at Taupo —the Ngatiporou and the Ngatikahungunu ?—I think some of the Ngatikahungunu went there; but there was an interchange of ideas between my granduncle and Te Kani-a-Takirau, who was the representative chief of the East Coast people, and my granduncle said this to Te Kani: " I will propose that you should be made King, because there are many people under your control." Then Te Kani replied, "No; you, because you are the man in the centre of the Island." Then my granduncle looked upon it that he had not a sufficiently numerous body of men amongst his own people or tribe—the Ngatituwharetoa —at his command to properly uphold the position of King, so he then handed it over to the large tribe of the Waikato people. 269. Would not the same thing happen again, assuming that they came to certain resolutions at this next meeting, and there will always be a difference of opinion ?—I say that I believe that if this House gives to the Maori people the mana which they ask for to make laws and regulations for themselves they will be one. The only reason now, or one of the principal reasons, against their combining in any particular direction is because there are so many different lines of thought. They really do not know where they are. They do not know that any particular line of thought taken up and advocated would be given effect to by this House, and therefore each man dodges for his own line of thought. 270. Then, is it likely they would come to one unanimous understanding ?—lt may justly be said they are now so. I have told this Committee that there are thirty-seven thousand people in support of this movement. Another large section of the people who approve of the kotahitanga, including Mahutau, the King, and those people, have also come in and given their allegiance to the kotahitanga. Te Whiti and his people are the ones who separate from it. 271. Do they want the whole control of their lands pure and simple? Do I understand from you that what you want is to have control of the Native lands in the North Island pure and simple ? —And in the South Island too. 272. We will leave Waipounamu out ?—Well, I want a law which will embrace the people in all parts of New Zealand. I have already said, in reply to your previous question, that we have the assurance of certain of the people in the South Island that they are with us in this movement. 273. Are you aware that the Native lands in the South Island are held differently to lands in the North ?—No. I only know this : that certain people from there did come and attend our kotahitanga meetings, and, as far as I understood from them, it would be a boon for their lands to be operated upon by that law. 274. Are you aware that several of those people who attended the kotahitanga meetings have actually gone away from the kotahitanga movement; they are quite disgusted with it ?—Yes ; I heard why they did so too. It was jealousy that sprang up amongst the people of the South Island. Some of them wanted the kotahitanga to be held in the South Island. 275. Do I understand from you that, as between Henry Kaihau's Bill and the Government Bill which is before the House now, you would rather support Henry Kaihau's Bill than that of the Government? —Yes; much better than this. 276. Do I understand from you that you want a Maori Parliament pure and simple ?—Yes.

Friday, 7th October, 1898. Mr. Te Heuheu in attendance: examination continued. 277. Mr. Kaihau.] Mr. Parata asked you how many years elapsed after the meeting held at Pukawa, when the King was created, before trouble arose, and I understood your reply to be seven years. Mr. Parata then went on to ask where the trouble first arose in this country, and your reply was that the first trouble arose in the Waikato in 1863. Arising out of those questions and answers I will put to you the following question : Did you never hear of any trouble at Wairau, in the South Island ? —Yes. I have heard of that trouble—that was the first trouble which arose between the Europeans and the Maoris, but it had nothing to do with the King movement. The fighting which took place as an outcome of the King movement was, according to what I have heard, as I said the other day—in 1863. 278. Did you never hear of any trouble having occurred in 1843 at Wanganui ?—Do you refer to Moutoa ? 279. Yes? —Yes; I know that there was fighting at Wanganui, and that there is a monument erected at that place in memory of the event, but I would not be certain as to the year. But I have also been informed that that fighting had nothing to do with the King movement. 280. Did you not hear that the first serious fighting in this country took place at Waitara in the year 1860? —I have heard of that fighting. At that time the fighting was between Kirikumara and Te Eangitaake, the cause of the fighting being some trouble that arose between Te Eangitaake and a man called Te Teira. The Chairman : I fail to see what these questions have to do with the subject-matter of the Bill now before the Committee. 281. Mr. Kaihau.] Presently. Did you never hear of any fighting which took place in 1845 up north in the district which is now represented by the member for the Northern Maori District ?— If you refer to Hone Heke's war, I know of that. 282. Now, with regard to this fighting which you speak of in 1863 in the Waikato : can you explain what was the cause of that fighting?— Well, as I understand it, it was this : that the Europeans were under the impression that this setting-up of the King was a trampling upon the sovereignty of the Queen, whereas, as a matter of fact, it was nothing of the kind. It was an endeavour to uphold the mana which had been granted by the Queen under the Treaty of Waitangi. That was what my grandfather said to Potatau at the time of the Pukawa hui: that the Queen and the King

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should be bound together under one law, and that Almighty God would be over both of them. The descendants of the persons who were at that meeting are aware of those words having been used. Potatau's reply to those words was this : that, no matter whether the word made use of happened to be red or black or white, it would all go through the eye of the same needle. I think that these words cannot fail to convince the Committee that the King was originally set up to uphold the rights under the Treaty of Waitangi, and I am certain that if at the time this trouble first arose in the Waikato the matter had been carefully inquired into, and the cause searched out by the Europeans, there would have been no necessity for the war between the Maoris and the Europeans, which ultimately resulted in the confiscation of the Maori lands. The Chairman: What has a reference to these wars to do with the Bill which we are considering. 283. Mr. Kaihau.] Very well; I have done with that subject. Was any instruction received from the Queen that war should be made in New Zealand against the King ? —lt is possible that instructions to that end may have been received, but I have never heard that it was so. 284. If no war was declared by the Queen against the Maori King and his people, do you think that the pakehas out here in New Zealand had a right to make war against the Maoris of this country ?—They had no right. The Queen had no quarrel with the Maori people, and there was no reason why any fighting should take place. The Chairman : I cannot see, myself, what connection this has with the Bill we are considering. We are not here to inquire into the cause of the fighting that has taken place in days gone by. That is not our business at all, and it is only wasting the time of the Committee to allow this sort of thing to go on. Mr. Kaihau : Very well. Now, the point that all these questions of mine have been leading up to is this: If that is the case, can there be any possible right that a measure such as that before the Committee should be brought in to deprive the Maoris of their rights assured to them under the Treaty of Waitangi ? The Queen never made war against the Natives of this country, and there is no reason why the Europeans here should have made war against them ; therefore there is no reason why their rights should be taken away from them which were assured to them under the Treaty of Waitangi. I wish to ask the Chairman if I am not to be given an opportunity of asking such questions as I deem to be necessary to prove the reasons why the Maoris object to this Bill which is the subject of the present inquiry. The Chairman : Ido not object to that at all. What I object to is bringing in all these reasons why war broke out in the Waikato. If we are going into that sort of thing, each member of the Committee will have a right to ask every witness all about the war, and about every battle that was fought in it, and which battle was gained, and which lost, and all the rest of it. Where is it to end ? Mr. Kaihau : I claim the right, if I hear any other member of the Committee asking questions which contain suggestions as to the people in the district I represent, to ask questions which will disprove the assertions made. The Chairman: It is my duty as Chairman to prevent any of this sort of thing going on. I can only allow questions which will elicit ihformation from the witness with respect to the subject we have under consideration. Mr. Kaihau : I will not ask any more. Mr. Parata : I do not think the questions which I put to the witness, and which it seems have offended my friend Mr. Kaihau, went to condemn the district he represents. Mr. Kaihau : I did not mention any name. Mr. Parata: You appeared to refer to the remarks I made. Mr. Kaihau : I have explained the matter now. . • Mr. Parata : I took it you felt offended at what I asked, and every other member of the Committee would take it in that light. Mr. Kaihau : There is no occasion for me to take offence. I only wanted to clear up what I considered to be the desire of the Natives. All I wanted to ask the question for was to show the Committee clearly what Mr. Parata was asking about. I did not want the Committee to be under a misapprehension. Mr. Parata: My question only went to the statement which the witness made that when they combined for certain things to be carried out, then in a few years afterwards they all broke away from those arrangements or treaties they made amongst themselves. Therefore I take it that, with regard to the scheme which they are now advocating, perhaps it will last a few years and then they will break away from it again. Also, with regard to this kotahitanga movement, what has come to it even now? They are broken up into sections about it. 285. The Chairman.] That will do as far as personal explanation is concerned. There is one question I should like to ask the witness. I infer from the statements which he has made that he is more in favour of Mr. Kaihau's Bill than of the Bill which is now before the Committee; is that so?— That is so. 286. I also understood you to say, in reply to a question put by Mr. Monk, that there was to be a large meeting of Natives at Waitangi in March next ?—Yes. 287. And at that meeting this matter would be discussed?— Yes; both this Bill and Henry Kaihau's, and other matters besides, and to decide whether it is necessary to bring in something different from either of these Bills. 288. Will they be prepared at that meeting at Waitangi to bring forward a measure to submit to Parliament for its approval which will have the approval of all the Natives of New Zealand ?—I think so, because they have something definite to go on, and then an opportunity will be afforded for each representative of every tribe in New Zealand to express his opinion. 289. I heard you say, in answer to Mr. Wi Pere, that if the East Coast Natives agreed to accept the Bill proposed by the Government you and certain other Natives would object to it ?—I

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said if sections 11 and 12 remained in the Bill as they now are I should object, but that if those sections were struck out or amended in the manner suggested to this Committee I should not object. But I should like to say this to Mr. Chairman : The way I look at the question is this: Many Acts having special reference to that district have been passed. I know there was one before this Committee not long ago by Mr. Eees, and now it has been held over for another year. If that is brought into operation, and this one also, there will be four distinct Acts in force in that district. 290. That is not the point. I would ask you to confine yourself to the question of why you would object to this Bill being adopted by the Natives of the East Coast unless certain sections were struck out. Now I come to the question I wish to ask: Supposing the Natives agree in March next at Waitangi to bring in and submit to Parliament a measure which has the approval of the Natives generally, but which the East Coast Natives do not want, would you force them to adopt it whether they desire it or not ?—Well, I say this: This Bill is not now accepted by the East Coast people, and it would be better to wait until the meeting is held at Waitangi next March and see what is the result of their deliberations. I would go on to say that the East Coast tribes have their representative members in the runanga and kotahitanga, and they will be called upon to attend the hui at Waitangi. If, when they go there, they refuse to agree to the proposals which have been agreed upon by the representatives of the other Maori tribes in this country, or if they come to a clear reason as to why they do not see their way to accept them, then, of course, they must have their way the same as other people. 291. Then, if the Natives agree to a measure at the meeting at Waitangi, they would make it optional the same as this Bill is ?—What I say is this: If a certain section of the people have decided unanimously that a certain measure would be for their benefit, why should they be deprived of putting that to the test because others object ? 292. That is not the point. This Bill is optional ?—I do not understand that it is so. 293. Clause 11 says, " This Act shall not be adopted by any Native land district except at the request of the Native owners, to be expressed as hereinafter provided"?— Yes; but that means that twenty of the owners can do it. You will see that it is in accordance with the provisions down below. 294. It may not be altogether optional, but it is so to a great extent in comparison with being compulsory. Are you prepared at this meeting at Waitangi to introduce a provision to that effect into the Bill that may be considered?—Of course, that should not be so, because these Maoris themselves unanimously decided upon adopting a particular line of action ; the others should not separate themselves from what is the wish of the people generally. Of course, if any of them persisted in refusing to accept such a measure as that, they could act as they chose. You could not compel them. 295. That is just the thing; you would make it optional? —If all the people at the hui, representing all the people in the Island, had agreed to a certain measure, they should do all they could to induce their people to agree to it. 296. But you can see by the very petitions with regard to this Bill that the Natives are by no means unanimous with respect to it 9 —l know that there are three thousand and odd people who have petitioned in support of the Bill, and I know that over ten thousand petitioners have said that they do not want it. 297. Well, that is not being unanimous ?—That is so. I think I might perhaps be allowed to say this : that I am satisfied that the great majority of the 5,000,000 acres which remain to the Natives is represented by the ten thousand people who have petitioned against the Bill. We will say that there are 5,000,000-acres remaining, and I am certain I am, correct in saying that a great deal more than half of that is represented by the people who petitioned in opposition to the Bill. 298. In view of this Native gathering in March next at Waitangi, would you prefer to see this Bill postponed until after that, or would you prefer its being rejected altogether ?—I would like to see both these courses taken, Mr. Chairman, if one were not possible. I must give two replies. First of all, I would like to see the Bill struck out altogether ; and, secondly, if the Committee cannot see its way to that, I should prefer that it should be held over until after the Waitangi meeting. This is my personal opinion. These two replies I have given are given as embracing all the ten thousand people who have petitioned against the Bill. lam borne out by their petition, which says that the thing should be struck out altogether or be held over until the meeting is held. My own personal wish is that it may be struck out altogether and destroyed at once. 299. Then, if that were so, there would be no reference to this Bill at the Waitangi meeting?— Oh, yes, there would, and I will explain why. 300. There would be no use in referring to a dead thing ? —They propose to submit a measure as the outcome of their conference, even if there is no measure at all submitted for their consideration. According to the address which they sent to the Queen, to which they received a reply, they say they wish to maintain the management of the remaining portion of their lands themselves, and they wish to do so. 301. Mr. Monk.] I do not wish a wrong impression to be created in the minds of the Committee by the reply which you gave to Mr. Kaihau. It led me to infer that you said the Queen supported the war with the Waikatos ?—No ; I did not say that. What I said was this : that the Europeans in this country had taken up a wrong conception of the position. They thought that the Maoris setting up a King was a direct infringement of the rights of the Queen. 302. I thought you said the war was started from the Queen's initiative?— No. Mr. Herepete Eapihana in attendance and examined. 303. The Chairman.] The Committee will receive from you a statement of views. I suppose you represent the northern Maoris. You have heard what the previous witness stated, and I

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would ask you not to repeat over again anything he. has said, but simply to give us the views of the northern Natives ?—Greetings to the Chairman and to the members of the Committee. First of all, I may say shortly that I concur in all the views expressed by the last witness, who is chairman of our committee, which has been sitting here in Wellington, and represents the ten thousand people who have signed the petition against the Bill. Now, none of the people in my district have signed petitions opposing the Bill. 304. Or in favour of it ?—They have signed no petition either in support of or objecting to the Bill, for this reason: that no copy of the Bill had reached my district when.l was there. 305. That is the neglect of your member?— Yes; and of the Government also. In all other parts of the country the Government thought it necessary to call huis. That at Waipatu was the first, and they carried copies of their Bill round to these places. Therefore I say the Government are equally blamable with our member. I attended the meeting when this Bill was brought up and the kotahitanga business was abandoned. I stood up and said I refused to accept the Bill from start to finish, because my people had never been informed of the existence of such a measure. Another thing I said was that this Bill had never been submitted to the kotahitanga, but simply laid before the Maoris outside. Now, there were many people present, men, women, and children, representing the Maoris at this end of the Island, and I, feeling that I was only one man representing the northern Maoris, and never having had the Bill submitted to us, it was not competent for me to consider the Bill, or propose any amendments, or comment on it at all. When I came to this place I saw the Bill, and I sent a copy of it to my people, and since I have been in Wellington I have been told that they would not accept either the Premier's original Bill or the amendments proposed to it. I am here to corroborate what has been said by the previous witness. lam not willing to accept this Bill as it stands, or the amendments made by the East Coast people. What I ask of the Committee is this : that it will direct that this Bill and Mr. Kaihau's Bill, and all other Bills bearing on Native matters, be held over until the meeting has been held at Waitangi. The only thing I can see my way to agree to in the Premier's Bill or the amendments is the provision putting a stop to land purchases. But that is but one aspect of the Bill. There are many other provisions in it which we cannot settle here in Wellington. Therefore I say the whole Bill should be held over until the Waitangi meeting is held, because that will be a very large and influential gathering of all the chiefs from every part of the Island. It would be an effective meeting, except that the law will not permit it to be effective. Of course it is true, as has been pointed out by members of this Committee, that the Maoris are not all of one mind. That is unfortunately so. They are just the same as Europeans in that matter. This House itself is an illustration of that statement. It is divided into two parties, the Opposition and the Government, and if it were not for the strenuous efforts of those in control to keep things going it would be impossible to know how either side might act. I say that because the committee of the kotahitanga has no laws to guide it, and therefore it is open to anybody to say what he likes, and there must be differences of opinion. Now, about putting a stop to the purchase of Native lands, I said that that struck me as a very desirable provision in the Bill, but the rest of the Bill damned it. I think if these purchases of land were put a stop to it would relieve the Maoris of the persecution and injustice they suffer at the hands of the pakeha lawyers and other schemers among Europeans. Another thing that I would point out is this : that the Government landpurchase officers are equally blamable. If they go to purchase a block of Native land they do not go to the sensible people and give them any opportunity of knowing what they are doing; but they go to the old and ignorant people, and so get a footing in the land. Then they go on, and, having purchased the shares of all the stupid ones who did not know what they were doing, they use that as an argument to get the people who are holding on to give way, by saying, " What is the use of you holding on when all the rest have given way?" lam not romancing in this matter, Mr. Chairman. lam speaking from my own personal experience. I have been the last to hold on to my interest in a block of land, and that has been the argument which the Government officer has used to induce me to sell. Therefore I say that if that step, of putting a stop to the selling of lands by the Natives, is once taken it will be most distinctly to the advantage of the Maoris. Because Maoris are like all people; there are fools amongst them, and there are stupid people amongst them, and there are amongst them people who know something, and there are people who do not know what they are doing. So that lam entirely with that proposal in the Bill. But on no account should the Board be allowed to have control of the lands, because many troubles arise from mortgages. If the land is mortgaged, and the mortgage cannot be paid, the land must pass from the owners. Therefore I think the Maoris should be given an opportunity to consult over what they think would be the best amendments to make to the Bill. I would ask that all further matters in connection with the Bill be held over until the hm has been held at Waitangi. I would make the same request with respect to all the legislation affecting the Natives that has been introduced this session : that it be all held over until this meeting has sat. As to Mr. Kaihau's Bill, I personally cannot agree to it. His Bill has not been publicly considered yet among the people. It is the desire of a small section. The Waitangi hui will be a representative meeting of delegates from all parts of both Islands. That is all I propose to say. 306. You made a statement, with regard to the selling of land, that you wished all selling of Native lands to absolutely cease ?—Yes. 307. I was astonished at your making such a statement as that, because the district which you represent is entirely different from other Native districts in the colony with regard to its lands. Are you not aware of large tracts of land in the Northern district which are useless to the Maoris for cultivation or settlement, and from which they derive no benefit whatever?— There is such land there. 308. What would you suggest should be done with land like that ?—The reason for what I said was this : that if you permit the sale of land in one part of the Island you cannot shut it up in the other parts. I know it is the case that the lands in my district are almost valueless. s—l. 3a.

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309. Are you not aware that keeping these lands.shut up prevents settlement and stops the district progressing ?—Yes; but then I propose to put a stop to these sales and to everything else until the hui has been held at Waitangi, and then, if they think it necessary that arrangements should be made to sell these lands, let them do it. 310. Are you not aware that there are a great many small pieces of land of a few acres in extent, far away from any settlement and not used by the Maoris for living on, which are surrounded by European settlers—patches of 10 or 15 or 20 acres in size: what would you do with those lands ? —Lease them. • '311. But no one would lease small sections of land like that ?—That has not been proved. 312. You know they are of no value, and only come in between European settlers, and they merely take them up to complete their boundaries, that is all; they are of no intrinsic value ? — Well, I still stick to my opinion that the first thing to insure the welfare of the Maoris is the prevention of sales. 313. Then, you would prefer to see these blocks of land remaining in an unsettled and uncultivated state for ever ?—I am not advocating that nothing should be done with the land ; what lam advocating is that it should not be sold. 314. Then, you prefer leasing? Do you think it possible that any Europeans would lease for twenty-one years any section of the bush land between Maongonui and Hokianga where you yourself live ?—I think so. It is nearly all in the possession of Europeans now. 315. The lands between Maongonui and Mangamuka ?—The largest parts are in the possession of Europeans. 316. Do you think that Europeans would lease the land outside of Mangamuka?—Parts of it are under timber-leases now. 317. That is the part that carries timber ; but what of the portions outside the timber land?— I say that all these matters should be left to the hui at Waitangi to decide what should be done with these places. In the meantime, stop the sale of Native land. 318. From your knowledge of other parts of New Zealand are you not aware that the circumstances in connection with the lands in the North, both as regards cultivation and the facility of getting goods to market, are altogether different from those in other parts of the colony ?—Mr. Chairman, you know as well as I do that the Maoris in my district do not cultivate land extensively. Their main support is gum-digging, and if the gum is exhausted and the land is gone what will they have to live on ? 319. But if a large proportion of the land was good land, and fit for cultivation, the Maoris would not depend so much on gum-digging ? —Some of the land is very good, but the Maoris are lazy. The gum-digging is to blame for making them lazy. : 320. Mr. Wi Pere.] Then, you want the head of the Bill to pass, that part which proposes to stop the sale of land ?—Yes ; but I want it done in accordance with the address to the Queen. 321. And the arrangements with regard to sale and so on : would you leave that to the hui ? — Yes. 322. Mr. Kaihau.] I want to ask you whether you know anything at all about this Bill which is before the Committee. Have you read it ?—I have read it. 323. Are you satisfied with the Bill and all its provisions ?—I have already said lam not. 324. You say that the part of the Bill you are prepared to accept is that part which provides a sort of reply to the address sent to the Queen that a stop should be put to the sale of land, and all the rest should be brought before the hui at Waitangi ? —Yes. 325. Is that your own private wish, or are you expressing the opinions of the people whom you represent ?—I have said that is my own idea. 326. Do you think that the member representing the Northern Maori District will express the same view as yourself: that the Bill should be taken to the meeting to be held at Waitangi in March next, and there considered ?—I think so, because from the communications I have had from the people there they are not agreeable to this Bill. Therefore I think this Bill should be taken to the meeting, and there talked over by them. 327. That is not a reply to my question. I want to know if the Northern Maori member is of the same opinion that you are : that the Bill should be taken to the Waitangi meeting, and talked over ;do you know what his views are ?—I do not. This is my own idea. 328. This Bill proposes to constitute a Board, which is to be made up of Europeans and Maoris, to deal with and administer Maori lands : what do you think of the proposal that some should be Europeans and the others Maoris ?—Do you want to know my own private opinion ? 329. Yes ?—I think they should all be Maoris. 330. No Europeans ?—No ; in my opinion there should be no Europeans. 331. Do you mean that they should conduct matters under the Queen's laws or under their own laws ? —My wish would be to see things done in accordance with the laws ; that they should not trample on the laws of the colony. 332. Then, if you do not want to see the Queen's laws trampled upon, you want to see Europeans sitting on the Board ?—I would not like to see the laws conflict. 333- How would you set about framing a proposal which would insure that the Queen's laws would not be trampled upon?—l cannot answer that question. I have not gone into the matter. I have not considered what action I should take. I cannot reply offhand to such a question. 334- You cannot give me a reply to it ? How many years has this matter been in process of consideration that you cannot give me a reply?—l do not know what the question means. Ido not know whether you are asking me about your own Bill, or what it is. 335. What I mean to say is this : You have said in your evidence that this Bill of the Premier's was not laid before the gathering of the principal tribes of the country, and I want to know what are the opinions held by the principal tribes of the country to whom yOu-then referred ?—I do not

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think that I did say that. I said at the meetings that had been held by the principal tribes of the country. 336. If you cannot answer the question I will not press it. Te Heuheu has been asked this question already, so perhaps the Chairman may object to my asking it, but it is not a very long one. The Chairman : What is it ? 337. Mr. Kaihau.] He said that the Premier's Bill was only taken to a few places in this Island, and it was never laid before the kotahitanga. The present witness says that it was never brought to his district ?—I must explain what I did say. I said that there were three divisions of the Island —there was the East Coast electorate, the West Coast electorate, and the Northern electorate, and that the Bill had been taken round the East and West but not the Northern electorate. 338. Then, I understand you to say that this Bill has never been considered by the kotahitanga; is that it ?—Yes. The Chairman : I understood that the Bill had never been seen by the northern Maoris—that it had never been distributed amongst them. 339. Mr. Kaihau.] I want him to say now, in reply to my question, whether he means that this Bill has never been laid before the huis of the kotahitanga or the people who belong to the kotahitanga ? —What I said was this: that the Bill was laid before the kotahitanga at Papawai, but it was not laid before them in accordance with the rules and regulations of that -hui. Therefore I said I could not accept the Bill, because it was not done in conformity with the rules of the hui. 340. Very well; that means that you now admit that this Bill was laid before, at any rate, one of the kotahitangas, and seen by people who were associated with the kotahitanga movement ?— Yes. ' 341. Then, I may shorten what I have to put before you, and it is this: that the kotahitanga all held the same opinion as the last witness, Te Heuheu, who is chairman of the committee ?—I commenced my remarks by saying I agreed with all that was said by Te Heuheu—that is, as far as his original statement is concerned. As to his replies to questions put to him, I have my own opinion about them. 342. How do you render the meaning of that word " kotahitanga " ? What does it mean?—lt means a combination or confederation of the Maori people under the Treaty of Waitangi. 343. That is, of the peoples who signed the treaty; is that what you mean ?—Yes ; and other people who now embrace the movement, even although they may not have signed the treaty. ■ - 344. Article 3 of that treaty provides : "In consideration thereof Her Majesty the Queen of England extends to the Natives of New Zealand her royal protection, and imparts to them all the rights and privileges of British subjects." How does that bear upon your contention? Howdoes that provide for what you say you wish for: that the Maoris should have separate rights of adminisr tration ?—This is what I have thought: If it be considered desirable to set up a separate Maori runanga or combination of some kind it may be advisable to do so, but that they should not have different laws from Europeans. That is what I say. At the present time the laws affecting the Maoris and the Europeans are different. There is not one law for both people. The laws with reference to the lands of the Maoris and those with reference to the lands of the Europeans are not the same, and I think it should be the endeavour of this hui to adopt some means whereby the same law should be brought into operation for both races. „ n 345. But what is to satisfy this Committee or the Parliament of New Zealand that if this meeting does take place and the matter is talked over any such result as you speak of will be arrived at ? —I think I have made a very reasonable request to the Committee. I have said, let the matter , stand over until the meeting at Waitangi, and then we will see what proposition they may make to the Committee. 346. Apparently I can get no satisfactory answer. Did your Ngapuhi people remain loyal to the Queen ?—I think so. 347. Your people did not take part in holding on to the lands, which was the cause of war in other parts of the Island, did they ? This is the same sort of question I have already asked and want a reply to : did your people in the north take the same stand as the people of my district and in this part of the Island—did they hold on to their lands, and refuse to part with them? You can say Yes or No, or if you do not like to reply you can say so. You know perfectly well it was so ? —I think the Ngapuhi people have always kept themselves within the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi. 348. That means that they did not take part in this other arrangement—l am not trying to trip you up in anything ?—I do not understand what the question is for. A great deal may be made out of my reply. Well, I think they did. 349. Well, then, I understand you to mean that in all the fightings in various parts of this Island from 1842 to 1863 the Ngapuhi took no part ?—I think so. . ~ 350. When you know perfectly well, why do you say, " I think so " ? What is the object in' giving an indefinite reply when you know perfectly well you ought to give a definite one? He. is afraid ;I do not know why ?—I do not know these matters. I was young then. . , 351. But I am younger than you, and I know these things?— Yes; but I am not in a position to say whether your knowledge of them is correct. 352. Ido not say it is. lam asking you what you heard about it. I should like the Committee to understand that I have no wish to either confuse or annoy the witness. I see he is a, little troubled over my question. I will explain to him now. You know, as a matter of fact, that,, as the result of the war and the fighting in this country between the two races, the Queen's representatives and officers did certain things—took certain action ?—Yes ; I have heard it was so. I know it was so.

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353. And these regulations which were passed, and these things which were done, by the Queen's representatives and the Government officers were all observed by your people, who still kept faithful to the Treaty of Waitangi; is that so? —Yes. 354. Very well. Now, then, I ask you this question :If this is the case, as you say, and your people have always upheld the Treaty of Waitangi, have always abided by the laws made by the Queen's representatives and the Government officers in this country, and have been under the control of the Parliament of this country, how, then, can you possibly claim to have a right to set up a separate administration? Having all ceded their rights, and mana, and sovereignty, and everything else to the Queen, and the Queen having empowered her officers and the Government to carry out the affairs of the country, and to set up a Parliament in this country, and. your people having always upheld this law, how can they now claim a right to break away and set up a kotahitanga ? —I must take some time to answer that question, because it strikes me it is not a question at all. It is a statement of the construction which you put on what I said. All the steps taken by both the Europeans and Maoris were not in accordance with the Treaty of Waitangi. 355. I do not want a reply like that. You say that at the time there was fighting in this country you were loyal, and remained under the Queen's laws, and so on; that you have always adhered to the Treaty of Waitangi, and been guided by the laws made by the Queen's representatives in this country; how, Alien, can you now say, "We are not loyal, and want to set up a kotahitanga" ?—l say there is nothing wrong in a kotahitanga. It in no way conflicts with the conditions of the Treaty of Waitangi, because that treaty assures to them their rights, and they want to maintain those rights. 356. lam not talking about the Treaty of Waitangi. I asked you what position you and your people took up at the time the war and trouble arose between the two races. Certain people held on to their lands, and were fought against by the Government, and called rebels ; did you go on their side or remain loyal to the Queen ? That is the question I asked you, and you said you remained loyal to the Queen, and now you claim to set up a different order of things, and call it a kotahitanga; how is that?—l say that the people want to consider how certain things and provisions can be arranged between the two races in accordance with the Treaty of Waitangi.

Tuesday, 11th October, 1898. Mr. Herepete Bapihana in attendance: examination continued. 357. Mr. Kaihau.] Since you have been living in Wellington have you not been a member of the Maori committee comprised of members of various tribes appointed to inquire into and decide upon the subject-matter of this Bill ?—Yes; I am one of the members of that committee. 358. Has that committee got a chairman ? —Yes ; there have been two chairmen. There was one chairman at first, but he left, and when he went away another chairman was appointed in his place. 359. Who is the second appointed chairman ?—Te Heuheu. 360. Did you hear the evidence of the second chairman of that committee before this Committee, objecting to the Bill which is now being considered ? —Yes. 361. His evidence has all been taken down; what do you think of it?—-As far as his statements with regard to the Bill are concerned, I entirely concur with him, but I do not indorse his replies to questions; that is to say, in my opinion, Ido not think that is a solution of the difficulty. 362. What part of his replies to questions did you take exception to—in your opinion, what was wrong in them ?—Well, he made a great many statements in reply to questions which I could not indorse. 363. Will you tell this Committee those parts of his evidence which you say you could not agree to ? The Chairman : I do not think it is necessary to go through all parts of the evidence of a previous witness. If each witness is to traverse the evidence of previous witnesses, and say with which part he agrees and with which part he does not agree, we shall never get through. What we want is the witness's opinion with regard to the Bill, and not his opinion as to the evidence given by other witnesses. Mr. Kaihau : Of course, if the Chairman objects to my putting the question I shall not put it, but it seems to me that we should not simply put leading questions which will only elicit an answer of " Yes " or " No." The Chairman: What you want is his own individual opinion with regard to the Bill, and allow him to eluoidate that in any way he thinks proper, but you do not want his opinion as to the evidence given by other witnesses. 364. Mr. Kaihau.] Very well, I will not put the question. (To the witness): You said the other day that to your mind the most important provision in the Bill was that which put a stop to any further land purchases; is that so ?—Yes. 365. Is it the general wish of all the tribes that a provision such as that should be given effect to : that the sales of Maori lands should be put a stop to absolutely ? —Yes, that is the general wish. It is the view conveyed in the congratulatory address to the Queen. 366. You were asked by the Chairman on Friday last what about the poor, valueless, or comparatively valueless, land in your district, and I understood your reply to be that when the hui is held at the Bay of Islands in March next it is to decide, if it thinks fit, that some of the land may be sold, or vice versa. I understood you to say that the meeting to be held at Waitangi might agree to sell the poor and comparatively poor land up in your district. Did you say so or did you not ?—No. I think what I said was this: that the hui should decide upon some scheme of submitting these lands for lease,

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367. Yes; but I asked you about sale ?—I do not think I said that. The Chairman: The witness said, in reply to a question put by me on Friday, that he would lease these lands, not sell them. These are his words : "In my opinion, the first thing to insure the welfare of the Natives is the prevention of sales." Mr. Kaihau : Yes ; but it is further on than that, I think. The Chairman :|Then I asked him again, " Then, you would prefer to see these blocks of land remain in an unsettled and uncultivated state for ever ? " His reply is, "I am not advocating that nothing should be done with the land; what I am advocating is that it should not be sold." Again, in reply to a further question, he said, " I say all these matters should be left to the hui at Waitangi to decide what should be done with these places. In the meantime, stop the sale of land." He continues to say that he advocates the leasing of the lands, not the sale of them. In reply to a question put by Mr. Wi Pere, who said, " You want the head of the Bill passed, that part which stops the sale of land ? " the witness said, " Yes ; but I want it done in accordance with the address to the Queen." 368. Mr. Kaihau.] Well, what is your opinion now with regard to this Bill? Should it be decided upon at once, or should it be held over for consideration at some future period—in fact, should it be struck out at once and done with or not ?—I have replied to that already. I have said that all I want to see done this year is the sales put a stop to, and, as for every other matter, let it be set down for the meeting at Waitangi to be settled there. 369. You want this Bill to be sent to the meeting at Waitangi to be settled there ?—Yes ; but let us pass a provision which deals with the absolute stoppage of the sales of land. 370. You say you want this Bill sent to the meeting at Waitangi, and that meeting is to decide what is to be done; are all the other members of your committee unanimous in that desire ? —I will not take upon myself the responsibility of giving a direct reply to that question. There are many members of the committee here present, and they can reply for themselves. Each can give his own reply. 371. You said just now you were a member of the Maori committee : I am asking you if that is the opinion of the committee. I ask you whether the committee arrived at any decision ?—I think the questioner will find that his question is, replied to if he will refer to the petition which was sent in in opposition to the Bill. 372. That is not a reply to my question. I want to find out from you whether you are speaking on your own responsibility or as a member of that committee ? The Chairman : Perhaps he is not authorised to be the mouthpiece of the committee. Mr. Kaihau : That is a broad question. lam asking whether the Maori committee generally are desirous that the further consideration of this Bill should be deferred until the meeting at Waitangi. The Chairman : Perhaps he is not in a position to express the mind of the committee, and that he can only express his own opinion. Mr. Kaihau : I understand that he is a member of a committee which has come to a certain resolution, and if he does not answer a question as to what the committee has done what is the use of his coming here to give evidence ? The Chairman : Perhaps the resolutions come to by that committee have not been reported, and it would be out of place for him to reply to your question. Witness : Perhaps I had better reply that we did decide upon two things. What the committee wished was this : that that part of the Bill which referred to the putting a stop to all land purchases should be given effect to at once, but that the consideration of all the rest of the Bill should be adjourned until the meeting was held at Waitangi, and then let them decide what should be done. 373. Mr. Kaihau.] Did you not hear the reply given by Te Heuheu to an exactly similar question put to him ? He said he wanted the Bill knocked straight out and not adjourned at all, or anything else, and as Te Heuheu was chairman of the committee of which you are a member, do you not think he is right in saying so, and that he knew what the wishes of the committee are ?— Yes; but Te Heuheu said two things. He said, first, let the Bill be struck out altogether, and then he said let it be adjourned till the meeting at Waitangi. 374. I understood Te Heuheu to say that they wanted the Bill killed—knocked straight out, and did not want it sent to the meeting at Waitangi to be dealt with. Did he not say so here?—l do not know. I have already said that while I was being questioned by this Committee I intended to give my own views, and that if my views were not in accordance with those expressed by Te Heuheu that is to be accounted for by the fact that he was expressing his views and I am expressing mine. 375. Then, I am to understand that you mean that you are only giving your own private views, and you are not representing the views of any section of the people —that these are really only your own personal private views ? —I am speaking on behalf of the Ngapuhi when I say they want this Bill adjourned until the meeting at Waitangi. As to the other tribes in the Island, lam not in a position to speak for them. I have heard that there are petitions from parts of the Island other than my own district which have been presented to the House in the matter of this Bill. 376. To what effect ?—That if the Bill cannot be overthrown now it shall be held over until next year. 377. Do I understand you to say that if the Bill is knocked out now it is to be held over until next year?— Yes. 378. You say that the desire of the people is that if the Bill is knocked out it should be referred to the consideration of the meeting at Waitangi; is that so ?—I say that is the wish of the people to whom I belong, the Ngapuhi; but that the people from the other parts of the Island, as I have heard, desire that the Bill should be held over until next year. The Ngapuhi want it adjourned until the meeting at Waitangi, and the cross-examiner has heard me say so already.

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379. I ask is that contained in any of the petitions which have been received ? Have you seen any petition to that effect ?—lf the questioner wants to see what is contained in the petitions, let him look up the petitions and he will see for himself. The Chairman: I think you cannot expect more from the witness than an expression of his own views and of the views of the Ngapuhi, whom he represents. Mr. Kaihau : But he has gone further than that. He has gone to the length of establishing this assertion : that that is what the Ngapuhi want, but that the people from the South want something else. I maintain, because I have read the petitions, that there is not a single one out of the ten thousand who have opposed this Bill who asked for it to be held over until the meeting at Waitangi. The Chairman: That may be your own mistake. I repeat that what we want is his opinion, and the opinion of the Ngapuhi, whom he represents, with regard to this Bill. The petitions will speak for themselves when we come to consider them. Mr. Kaihau : Yes; but I want the thing distinctly understood that this is merely his own idea, and that it is not to be laid at the door of the people whose idea he says it is. I do not wish the accusation to be made against the other tribes. Ido not wish it to be understood that they hold certain views when they do not. Witness : I have already told the questioner that there are persons in this room representing tribes other than my own who are members of the Maori committee, and he will get more satisfaction by asking them when it comes to their turn to give evidence. Mr. Kaihau : Yes; but, then, I cannot ask those other witnesses about matters which affect this witness personally. Therefore lam asking this witness personally. However, Ido not think it is much good asking him these questions, for he does not appear to know. Therefore, perhaps, I had better leave it for some one else to conclude asking this witness questions on that subject. I have materials for asking him questions for another two days or more. I want the matter cleared up, and for this reason : I say that the Maori people in this Island have not yet decided on any line of action in connection with this matter. Some of them claim that they have solved the difficulty, and others say, "No ; you are in the wrong; we have the proper solution." I want to find out what are the views of each particular district who sent representatives here as members of the Maori committee who are dealing with the matter. The Chairman: This witness has expressed over and over again to the Committee his own personal view, and the view of the Ngapuhi Tribe : that the whole thing should be held over until the meeting at Waitangi, when it will be discussed. Mr. Kaihau : It is perfectly true he has done that, but he has in every instance supplemented what he said by bringing in the names of other tribes. The Chairman : But there are other witnesses to come, and they will speak with regard to their own tribes. Mr. Kaihau: Ido not wish this point to be missed: that he has not only spoken of the desires of his own people, but he has associated them with other tribes outside, saying that they hold the same view. So Ido not want it to be said that he is not only representing his own and his people's views, but others as well. If that is so, it will be open when this Bill comes to be discussed to say that that is the opinion of the people generally. The Chairman : Have you any further questions to ask ? Mr. Kaihau : No. The Chairman has upset me to such an extent by continually interrupting me that I feel it is no use going on with questions. The Chairman: lam sorry you should be so nervous, but really if we went on the line of questioning that you took we should never get to the end of the matter. 380. Mr. Monk.] Why do you attach so much importance to the projected meeting at Waitangi ? —Because there is going to be a large hui held there with regard to the kotahitanga. 381. When you make use of the word " kotahitanga " does that apply to the whole Island or only to the northern portion of it—the Ngapuhi ?—Of course, the idea is that the kotahitanga will embrace the tribes in both the Islands, but there are some who have refused to embrace the idea. Mr. Kaihau: I shall ask, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be called upon to explain that the tribes in certain portions of the Island do not identify themselves with that movement. The Chairman : Perhaps Mr. Monk will elicit that from the witness. 382. Mr. Monk.] Who are the chiefs who have arranged this meeting at Waitangi?—The promoters of the kotahitanga. 383. But where do the men live who have made this arrangement ?—Some on the West Coast, some on the East Coast, and some in the Ngapuhi district. 384. Would you give me the names of some of those chiefs ?—Well, Te Heuheu is one, and I am another, and there is one of the Arawa, named Timi Waata Bimini, Hone Paerata, of the East Coast, and Tare Tikao, of the South Island, Eaniera and Pene Taui, of the Ngapuhi, and Hamiora Mangakahia, from the Thames district. 385. Who is the originator of this meeting at Waitangi ? You generally have a secretary in connection with such movements as this ; who is your secretary?—Pene Taui is the principal man in this movement. 386. Has your representative, Hone Heke, had anything to do with it ?—No; because we arranged for it here after the hui at Papawai. 387. If the other chiefs are so anxious for this movement, why have they not had Hone Heke here to represent them and speak for them, instead of a comparative stranger like yourself, when they want their views represented on a national question like this ?—lt may be that some of the members of this Parliament are keeping Hone Heke away. Ido not know. 388. Do you mean to tell me that you are going into this arrangement for a conference without the concurrence of your representative in Parliament ?—With reference to what ?

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389. With reference to this meeting at Waitangi ? —I do not know. When I got here I did not see Hone Heke. He had gone ; but we received letters from Pene Taui. 390. But Hone Heke is supposed to represent the views of the Ngapuhi. My object in putting the question is that I want to know how it is that your representative in Parliament, who should certainly be in possession of the desires of the great body of the Ngapuhi people, is not giving voice to it, and—without wishing to say anything derogatory to yourself—l wish to know why they should have chosen you as their spokesman instead of their representative in Parliament ?—-I do not know why Hone Heke is not here. All I can tell you is this: that I was chosen by the Ngapuhi people to come down here and attend the meeting in the Wairarapa, and when that meeting was over I came on to Wellington, and have been here ever since. 391. Is it not very curious that the chiefs should send you and not Hone Heke, their representative in Parliament ?—Yes ; but then there is another reason for this. Of course, I was sent here for another reason. lam one of the Ministers of the kotahitanga. 392. Is there any idea that you will be returned to Parliament at the next election instead of Hone Heke ?—No; I do not know that, nor do I wish it myself. But when I get home I will find out why it was Hone Heke was not here. 393. Will this great meeting at Waitangi be considered an adjournment of the meeting in the Wairarapa ?—lt will be the next holding of the kotahitanga meeting. It is only held once a year. 394. You do not seem to understand what lam asking. What I mean is, will that meeting at Waitangi be a continuance of the same feeling and the same action on the part of the tribes; and then whether afterwards there will be an adjourned meeting to some other part of the country ?— Yes; that is done year by year. 395. Then, there was a great meeting of Natives at Wahi: was that part of this same kotahitanga movement ?—No ; that was a Waikato movement pure and simple. 396. If the great meeting at Wahi and the kotahitanga movement are not identical it will not help to strengthen the importance which you have been attaching to that movement. It will show that it is only of secondary importance. It cannot be a kotahitanga if it is only for a section of the people ?—Yes ; but it is now seven years since this kotahitanga movement has been in force, and there are thirty-seven thousand people who have embraced it. 397. Do you wish this Committee to understand that there are thirty-seven thousand Natives exclusive of those who met at that great meeting at Wahi, at which there were representatives from all parts of the Island except the Ngapuhi, who are in favour of this kotahitanga ? —I cannot reply to that question, because I did not attend the meeting at Wahi; but the people who I say are thirty-seven thousand in number are people who have signed a document. 398. I do not wish to disprove what you say ; I only wish to give you an opportunity of confirming it by outside evidence. I know that there was such a large number of representatives at the Wahi meeting that the meeting must have represented a large proportion of the Native population of the country, and, as we also know that there are not more than about forty thousand Natives left, how can you say that you represent the feelings of thirty-seven thousand people ?—Of course, the proof of that is the document we hold in our possession, where each man signs his name, and there are thirty-seven thousand signatures there. 399. Then, the inference this Committee must draw from your statement is that the chiefs who were at the Wahi meeting were disloyal in giving in their adherence to another movement ? — Oh, yes. I did not say that all the tribes had embraced the kotahitanga. I said some had not done so. The Waikato people did not do so. 400. Has Mr. Kaihau's Bill anything to do with the kotahitanga which you have been talking about ?—No ; it is a separate thing; but the kotahitanga, of course, wants his Bill to be submitted to its meeting. Mr. Kaihau : I want to put a question to the witness to clear up certain matters. The Chairman : Yes ; but if a member of the Committee has an opportunity of examining a witness he should exhaust his inquiry at that time, and put no further questions, except in the way of obtaining an explanation of something that has been said. Mr. Kaihau : All right, I will not ask the question. At the same time I will make my protest in this way: that probably what the witness said will be misunderstood, and people will be misguided by it hereafter. Mr. Mohi te Atahikoia in attendance, makes a statement, and is examined. 401. The Chairman.] Will you state your views as briefly as possible, and not go over the same ground as the two previous witnesses ?—First of all, I give my expressions of good will and wishes to the Chairman and the members of this Committee. I will endeavour to meet the wishes of the Chairman, which he has just expressed, that I should make my statement as short as possible, and not unnecessarily repeat what has been said. I am a member of the East Coast people. The first matter on which I wish to speak is the head of the Bill. The preamble refers to the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. It goes on to explain that the reason why it calls this a Diamond Jubilee is because the Queen has been sixty years on the throne. Eepresentatives from all or most of her subjects in various parts of the world were present at the ceremonies in connection with that event. The Maoris were also represented. Then, an address was drawn up here by the people congratulating the Queen on reaching sixty years of Queenship. This congratulatory address to the Queen was asking her that she should show some consideration to the Maori people of New Zealand in commemoration of her having attained sixty years of her reign. The request which was contained therein was that the balance of the Maori land should be reserved to them. The Maori people having realised that, they are undone, that their lands have been taken from them by confiscation and through the medium of the multitudinous acts that have been.done, and measures passed from time to time—that they were thus deprived of their lands—was, the i

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reason why this address was written to be presented to the Queen, and the Queen's reply was that her Ministers in New Zealand—that is, the Government of New Zealand—would ascertain what was to be done to meet their desires, and the reply made by the Government of New Zealand is this Bill now before the Committee. The Maoris now, having read the Bill and grasped its contents, contend that it is not at all in accordance with the desires which led them to forward the congratulatory address to the Queen. Therefore petitions came from the people of the Island objecting to this Bill as a reply to the request, which they made in the congratulatory address to the Queen, that their lands should be preserved so that they themselves should continue to enjoy the ownership of their lands. Now, to refer to the Treaty of Waitangi : certain of my friends here, when they gave evidence, have alleged that the Maoris are kotahitanga—confederating under the Treaty of Waitangi. I say that the reason why the Treaty of Waitangi was entered into in this country was the outcome of a letter which was sent by the Maori people to the King of those days. In the year 1835 that letter was sent, and it asked that their lands should be protected while they were young, and when they grew up that the control and management of their affairs should be returned to them in the end. However, the reply was received from the Queen. The King in the meantime had died, and the Queen had come to the throne, and she replied to their request, and the reply which their letter elicited from her was the Treaty of Waitangi. That treaty assured to the Maoris the undisputed possession of all their rights, title, and interest to their lands, forests, fisheries, property, and so forth. That Treaty of Waitangi was to establish the mana and rights of the Maori people. There were troubles, fightings, and disputes afterwards between the Maoris and the Europeans, but they did not upset the Treaty of Waitangi. That deed went on to say that the lands should only pass from the Natives by purchase if the Natives were willing to sell, and had agreed upon the price to be paid for their lands. That was the provision of the Treaty of Waitangi. Afterwards, during subsequent years, certain pakehas represented to the authorities in England that private persons should be allowed to purchase Native lands, and the Queen gave them the permission. Well, now, the Maori people, recognising that they have been ruined and destroyed by trouble, and fighting, and conquest, and land-purchase, and so on, are asking that that part of the Treaty of Waitangi should be set aside—that part which secures to the Crown the right of preemption in the matter of the purchase of Maori lands. That is why the Maoris now want the balance of their lands preserved. Now, this Bill is before this Committee, and the Maoris cannot accept the Bill as a reply to their request to the Queen ; but they want to see effect given to their words in the request to the Queen. I will point out to this Committee that it has never yet received any petition from any persons except this petition opposed to the Bill. If the list of all the people could be gone into it would be found that there are over twenty thousand objecting to the Bill. Therefore, what the Maoris want to see accomplished is that effect should be given to their request to the Queen that the balance of their lands should be preserved to them; and I am here to represent that to be the most important thing in the minds of the Natives : that what they want first is the absolute reservation of the balance of their lands. When that part of their request to the Queen has been given effect to they will go into the question of making arrangements as to what shall be done with the lands so reserved. The people of the Island generally do not understand this Bill at all. They cannot understand why it has been brought in at all. Only a small part has been made clear to them. A Bill containing twenty-eight clauses was taken round the country, and explained by the Premier to the Maoris, and now there are forty-nine clauses in this Bill. So I say this Bill should go no further this year than to put a stop to sales. That is all; and anything else that is desired by the Maori people should be left over for some future time. Well, now, the Chairman said that I should shortly state what our views are, and I think I have done so. If it is necessary for me to be any longer over my remarks questions will decide that. I say, shortly, this is the principal desire of the ten thousand who have signed the petition against the Bill: that sales should be absolutely put a stop to. There is no such request in this petition as to strike out this Bill and substitute something else in its place. They have not said that at all. They have confined themselves to saying, " Strike out this Bill absolutely." That is all I wish to say. 402. Mr. Brown.] Are we to understand that you wish the Bill not to be proceeded with any further ?—Yes; the only thing that the Maoris want accomplished is that which is contained in their request in that congratulatory address to the Queen: that the lands should be absolutely reserved to them. 403. Mr. Monk.] Have you observed that the Premier and the majority of the Parliament consider that the waste lands of the Crown should be occupied by people and improved?— That is all provided for in the congratulatory address to the Queen: that such lands as the Natives do not occupy themselves they may lease. 404. It is only to selling that you have an objection ?—Yes. 405. But what would you do with those tracts of land on which you would have to spend quite as much as they are worth—that is to say, which after you have improved them are worth no more than the cost of improving ? Do you think you will get people to lease those lands ? —Of course, if they cannot be leased they cannot be leased. That is all about it, and they will lie without being leased; but I say, with regard to such a question, the Maoris should have a right to decide themselves. 406. I wish you to realise the claims which civilisation has on these lands : will you be prepared to pay taxes on the lands which lie useless ? —I say in reply to that question, shortly speaking, this: that all such matters as that the Maoris should have absolute power to decide themselves. If they decide to sell such lands they should have power to do so, or, if they should decide to lease them, or to deal with them in any other manner, they should have power to do so. That is why I say they should have control over these matters. With regard to the question itself, lam unable to give a direct reply, because I have no poor land. They might exchange it perhaps.

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407. Then, the Maoris want the Government's right to purchase Native lands taken away ?— Yes; they want to stop that. 408. You want to be in the position that if you like to sell you can sell, and if you like to hold on to the land you can hold on?— No. I say that a man should be prevented from selling even if he wanted to. That is what has ruined the Maori people as it is : that they have been allowed to sell when they wanted to. 409. I understand your objection to the Natives being left landless, but I want to know how you are going to deal with the case of people owning large blocks of land ? It is the practice of the Government now to buy up large estates of Europeans : how are the Natives going to get over the difficulty if they hold large blocks of land, as some of them do, and the Government say those blocks must be divided amongst the people—how are you going to get over that difficulty ?—Lease the lands and pay the taxes and rates in that way. 410. But Europeans have large blocks of land, and have to pay heavy taxation on them, and let them; and yet the Government say they have too much land and take it away from them. I am not saying that I approve of the system, and I am only asking you how you would deal with such a state of things ?—I think that if the land was divided up properly among the relatives and connections of the owner of a large area of land it would be right. They are not like a pakeha, who goes and buys the land, and has thousands of acres in his own right. Therefore I say that laws which affect European lands do not affect Maori lands at all. Let the Maoris bring in laws to deal with their own lands. Of course, the pakehas are a people like this : that when they haveexhausted New Zealand they will go elsewhere and grab up the lands there. The Maoris cannot do that; they have no other lands than those in New Zealand. 411. But there are instances, as I am well aware of myself, in which some tribes have very large tracts of land, while other tribes are almost landless: what is to be done in those cases?— That is what I say : that the pakeha law will not affect the Maoris at all. The Maoris have no other support besides the land. The pakehas have two means of support —the land is one and money is the other, and then they have another means of providing for themselves : they go about as travellers to other places and get land there. Maoris cannot do thai;. 412. It is not that at all. Would it not be better for the Maoris that they should divest themselves of their lands as quickly as possible and come under the habits and practices of the Europeans ? The Treaty of Waitangi says that the Maoris and Europeans should be under one law ? —That is what I say. Just pass the preamble of this Bill only, and let the Maoris frame the rest themselves. 413. There is the Native Land Court now in existence, with its machinery: would it not be better for the Maoris in their own interest to have all their lands surveyed and allotted, and their title secured ?—The Court behaves very badly. The Court goes and awards the land which belongs to one man to another, and in such a way that the Court shall have something else to do next year. 414. Does not that arise very much from the Natives wrangling amongst themselves?— The Maoris were instructed in all these things by the pakehas. The Maoris did not know how to tell lies until they were taught by the pakeha lawyers. 415. Do you mean to tell us that the Assessors who sit alongside the Judges agree to mislead the Judges, and actually misdirect the Court with falsehoods ?—Many Assessors have been paid and got money for that, in this way: They are told, " Now, if you will give an award in favour of a certain person, or in a particular direction, there is a sum of money for you." That is what used to take place, but now the Assessor has no authority at all in any direction; he simply sits there, and takes no part in the proceedings. 416. But he deliberates with the Judge, and the Judge relies upon him to guide him as to Native questions ?—Yes; but what he says has no effect. He has no mana. Formerly when a Judge and his Assessor consulted together over a decision the Assessor had to agree with the Judge before the decision of the Court would be legal, but now it is entirely different. Now the Judge can give his award as he thinks fit, and if the Assessor does not agree with him it is of no consequence at all. 417. What function, then, has the Assessor in sitting with the Judge? —I will reply to that by asking this question : What sense was there in passing such a law as that? Ido not think I should answer that question. You should ask the House which passed that law. 418. I say your remarks will apply to the Natives who sit in that House to watch the laws which are passed with respect to the Natives?—l was not here. I should not be blamed. It may be so, but I would point out that I do not think the Maori members are to blame, because when a matter like that is brought forward and they vote against it they are only four, and they cannot oppose it successfully. 419. I think that the legislation with regard to the Maoris has been very much guided by the advice of the Maori members of the House ?—I do not think they ever suggested that the mana of the Assessors should be taken away from them. 420. I was not aware that such was the case, but I have seen Maori representatives in Parliament accede to laws and regulations which I felt were thoroughly against the interest of the Natives, and yet they have not even remonstrated against them ?—Yes ; that is the worst of the Native members. I have noticed that, even here in this Committee, some ask questions in one direction and some ask questions in another direction. 421. I will now go on to ask you a question on another subject. With regard to your proposition that the Natives should manage their lands themselves, do you not think that there will be the same wrangling and disputes and want of judgment which is now displayed, and which is injuring the Natives so much, if they are given power to manage their own affairs themselves ? Will it not be the same then as it is now when their affairs are being managed by Europeans ? —lt has never 6—l. 3a.

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been tried. Since the year 1840 the Europeans only have made laws for the Maoris. The Maoris have never been given an opportunity of doing so. They have never had a chance of making laws for themselves. 422. Well, I have noticed what has occurred in the Native Land Court: that there has been one body of Natives on one side of the Court instructing a lawyer in one direction and another body of them on the other side instructing another lawyer in a totally different direction, and wrangling and disputing going on, and wasting their money in that way ; and I want to ask you, would it not be the same if the Natives had the management of their own affairs ? —Yes ; but that would be a dispute between them as to the title to a piece of land. 423. Are not the deliberations of these Native meetings to be based on the title to lands ?— I have said already that the Maoris did not know how to fabricate stories until they were taught how to do it by the pakeha lawyers. The lawyers did that. 424. It is all very well for you to tell that to the Committee ; but you must not expect me, who have had a knowledge of the Natives from my infancy up to the present time, to believe it. I have seen chiefs trying to circumvent other chiefs in their endeavour to rob them of their lands. It was so in the olden times when I was a boy, and when the chief, if he was a true father to his tribe, should have divided his land amongst them ? —Yes ; but, of course, lam not speaking in a derogatory way, I am speaking in a broad sense. Of course, the questioner is an older man than I am, and I am only speaking of my own experience in my own district. 425. Very well. I want you to explain to the Committee whether you realise the advantage which the Maoris would have by holding their lands under titles, so that they could transmit them to their children ?—That is a great question. 426. I want to know whether the Natives have any fixed purpose in this kotahitanga for the management of their lands, so that they shall not have any contention amongst themselves, for, if not, there will be no continuity in it ?—No general line of idea has been arrived at, but what we say is this : " Give us this first, and then upon that we shall find out what is the most advisable course to pursue." 427. lam quite in sympathy with the desire of the Natives to adopt some course which will benefit themselves, but I feel certain that unless they have some definite plan in their minds much simpler than anything we have heard yet—something really definite —they will only be passing from one trouble into another ?—The day of those troubles has not come yet. We know that troubles arise, and we want to stop them. 428. But even without forming themselves into this kotahitanga they can say that they will not sell their lands. The Government has no power to compel them to sell their lands. Cannot they simply refuse to sell their lands without any of this' legislation ?—Yes ; that is just so. It is just because we see where the mistake has been made that we ask now that these lands shall be absolutely reserved and restricted from sale. 429. But if the kotahitanga has no power, and if they have no scheme planned out for themselves, why should they not come to Parliament and get an Act passed under which they can make arrangements amongst themselves that they will not allow any more lands to be sold? —Yes; but if the Maoris have no laws now they cannot enforce their own ideas. What I mean to say is this : In the old days if a man wished to sell his land against the wish of the people you could cut his head off; but now you cannot do that, and you have to come to the House and get a law passed to prevent him selling his land. 430. Do you not think, after the experience you have had of the troubles the Maoris have gone through, that they are now placing themselves in the position of men leading a forlorn hope when they imagine that legislation will stop what is a fault in their own. nature and the result of the circumstances surrounding them ?—lt is the Parliament of this country which is entirely to blame for the troubles which have come upon the Maori people. It was this Parliament which passed the Act which imported the appointment of ten trustees for a tribe. 431. But supposing the Maoris had combined together some fifteen years ago and had said, " You have passed bad laws to compel us to sell our lands, but we will refuse to sell them " ; would not that have done some good?—I am afraid that that was the cause of the war in a part of the Island, simply because the people refused to sell the land. Some of them would sell and some would not. That was the cause of the fighting at Waitara. Then war arose, and the pakehas instead of embracing the right cause embraced the wrong. They went and assisted the people who agreed to sell, as against those who wished to hold on to their lands. 432. That was not entirely the cause of the war. Some of the people wanted to sell and some did not; but the Natives had the power to say, "We will not sell, because you do not give us the chance of getting the highest price for our lands; so we will let it lie idle." Then the Government would have had to make laws to suit them.

Wednesday, 12th October, 1898. Mr. Mohi te Atahikoia in attendance : examination continued. 433. Mr. Parata.] I understood you to say to the Committee yesterday that you would like to see the further consideration of this Bill adjourned? —Yes. 434. I understood you to say further that you would like the sales of land stopped?— Yes. 435. Sales either to the Government or to private persons ?—Yes. 436. You also thought that it should be competent to lease lands ?—Yes, both to Maoris and Europeans. 437. If the Government agree to alter this Bill so that it shall fit in with the wishes of the Maori people, what then? —That is what the Maoris want. They wish the Bill adjourned so that they can decide what it is they want.

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438. Are you desirous that this Bill should be held over, and the King's Bill also held over, so that they can both be submitted to the meeting at Waitangi, which is to be held there shortly?— Yes; that all the Bills having any relation to the Maoris and their land should be dealt with in that way. 439. Now, if the people when they meet at the hui at Waitangi find that they are unable to arrive at a unanimous resolution —if they are split up into two sections, what then?— What I say is this : that if the Waitangi hui is unable to come to a definite decision as to what they want, that the people will then come to Wellington and ask for further time, because it is rather a difficult matter to make laws. Every one knows that. 440. Supposing a certain section of the people wish this Bill to be brought into operation in their own district, what then ?—I say that if the sale of land had once been restricted and tied up, and then any particular district wished to have any particular system brought into force within its own boundaries, let them have it. 441. Should they have a right to set up Boards for their own district?— Yes, if the land had once been tied up. 442. If they want to set up a Board for themselves for the management of their lands, what would you say to that ? —I have replied that if the sale of land had been absolutely prohibited, and if after that had been done and completed any particular section of people in any particular district decided upon any particular thing, let them have it, be it a committee, or be it a Board, or whatever it might be. But if the sale of land were not first of all stopped, and any district wanted to bring in any scheme to operate in their district, I would refuse until the sale of land had been stopped. 443. If this particular district decided to establish a Board, and that Board decided to horrow money to do certain things, what would you say to that ? —I think my original reply covers that also. The people have already expressed it as their earnest desire that all sales of land be absolutely stopped, and, having done that, if they now want to bring in anything before that is done I should object to it. This sort of thing has been done before where sales have not been prohibited. If a certain section of the people framed any particular rule or law, that might mean that they could set apart certain lands for sale, and there might be others who would not agree to that, and they would be forced to agree to the wishes of the other people who were advocating the sale of the portions so set apart. Therefore I say the first thing that should take place before I agree to anything is the absolute prohibition of all sales. 444. Just so ; of course, I was asking you that question taking it for granted that sales had been stopped ?—Oh, yes ; if the sales had once been stopped I should have no objection to each district making its own laws and regulations. 445. Are you in favour of a Board, or are you opposed to it, or what is your opinion ?—I am opposed to everything except restricting the sales of lands. That is not my own opinion only, but the people have sent in a long list of names of those who are of the same opinion. 446. Why do you object to the Board? —For very many reasons —for numbers and numbers of reasons. The Board is empowered to hold the land absolutely. The Board can hold the land, or lease it, or sell it, or raise money on it —everything, in fact. 447. Supposing the House absolutely prohibits the sale of land, and only leaves it possible for the land to be leased, and gives the Board the control and administration of things, then what of that ? —These are just the things I say I want handed over to the Maoris themselves for them to amend. 448. Is not this the reason why you object to the Board : that it will cost a very great deal to work ? —That is also one reason, but there are others. The Board can borrow a sum of £5,000 on the land; and if the land is the property of other people the Board gets all that money and does exactly what it pleases with it, and it is very problematical whether the people who own the land will ever get any benefit from the money borrowed. 449. Then, the Maoris' objection to the Board is that it would be too expensive to work?— There are a very great number of reasons why the Board is objected to. The Board, having once got possession of the land, has power to cut off burial-places or do what it sees fit, and there is nothing to guarantee what the original owners will get. They may only get 2 acres apiece. It is impossible to say what the Board may do. 450. Very well; then, you say that you object to the expense which must result if this Board is brought into operation. That being so, the Native Land Court as at present constituted would be preferable to the proposed Board ? —I said yesterday that the Court was a very bad thing—that the Judges and Assessors were very bad. I said that the Court had deliberated in cases where land belonged to one man and they awarded it to another man who had no right to it in order to afford the proper owner a right to appeal, and so provide work for themselves for all time. 451. You think that if a change were made the Maoris would not continue to contend with one another in that way ? —Oh, yes ; they would, of course, contend in the same way, but what we now ask is this : that very many laws have been made by the pakehas which up to the present time have been unsatisfactory. Let the Maoris try to make a law, and see if it is more satisfactory. 452. Then, do you say that in your opinion the Maori committee would more satisfactorily deal with these matters than is at present done by the Native Land Court, or than would be done by the Board which it is proposed under this Bill to constitute ?—That is my opinion, because no important matter has been intrusted to the management of the Maoris which would justify one in saying that they were incompetent to deal with it. 453. Have you ever seen any good result from any Maori committee deciding a question which the Native Land Court could have decided if it had been brought before that Court ? Have you ever seen any desirable object which a Maori committee has accomplished?—-Yes. I have seen the advantages of Maori committees, and how much easier they are to work, one of the principal reasons being that they are not working for money. They are simply arranging Maori troubles when called upon to settle them, but as they are given no money and no power to enforce their decisions they cannot do this.

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454. Is it not the case that troubles also arise from these Maori committees ?—There is trouble, but it is not so great as the trouble which arises from the Court. 455. Then, you give it as your opinion to this Committee that if the Maori committees were given the power to manage these things it would be very much less expensive than it is now?— Yes. 456. You are certain that, in your opinion, this is the arrangement which would be the least expensive, and would not cost so much money as the Native Land Court or anything else?— Yes ; I say that it would cost less to deal with the Maori lands under it than under any other arrangement, whether at present existing or proposed. When the big hui sits it will then lay down some rules by which these things are to be done. They will do things according to the law. They do not propose to do anything outside the law, but simply, to lighten the burden that is now being borne. 457. If that is the case, will it not also perhaps happen that in some instances the Maori members of these committees will be biassed, and have individual leanings towards the claims of their friends and relatives, the same as has already been the case with Assessors in the Native Land Court? —Oh, yes; of course, that will never cease to be; but when it is seen that any member of the committee is related to a litigant before the committee, of course that member will be deposed, and some one will be elected to fill his seat. 458. Which would be the best way to deal with the Native lands? Do you think the land should be subdivided into hapu interests, family interests, or individual interests, or would you leave the whole in a lump as it is now ?—I say if the power is given to the committee, as we ask, to manage the land, then the subdivision of the land would be the best thing for them. Of course, if they are not given the power to do this, and it is left to Europeans to apply for subdivision of the land, then the Europeans will not trouble themselves or take into consideration the circumstances that the Maori is without means, and that he cannot afford to pay for the subdivision, whereas if the Maoris had it they would first see that the man was able to pay for his partition. 459. Then, you are willing that the shares of those men who are in large blocks should be subdivided?— Yes ; if once the Maoris are empowered to make the partition, because the Maoris know when persons who have no money would be injured, and when other persons who have money would get the advantage. 460. Then, you say that if the land were individualised each person would have an incentive to improve his land ?—Yes. 461. The Chairman.] Is it to the constitution of the Board as proposed in this Bill that you object ?—Yes. 462. Is that because it is proposed that it shall be constituted partly of Europeans and partly of Maoris ?—No ; it is not tha,t to which I object, but it is to the powers which it is proposed to give to the Board that I object. 463. I understood you to say that you do not object to a Board composed only of Maoris?— No such expression has been made use of. Not a Maori Board, but a Maori committee has been talked of. 464. It amounts to very much the same thing whatever you may call it; it is the appointment of a committee to manage your own affairs that you want? —Yes. 465. Are you in favour of continuing the present system of communism amongst the Maoris?— I should like to see the land partitioned and individualised, so as to put a stop to the troubles which now obtain as the direct result of its being in a communal state. But it should be given to the Maoris to do that themselves. 466. Then, you are opposed to the present system of communism ?—When the mana is given to the Maoris to manage the land I shall say yes, hut I am not going to say yes until that is done. 467. Are you in favour of this meeting which is to take place at Waitangi in March next ?— Yes. It was we who got the meeting adjourned until March. 468. Do you intend to be there?— Yes. 469. Will you be prepared at that meeting, in conjunction with other Maoris who will be there, to propose some scheme whereby the Maoris will be in a position to manage their own affairs ? — If the House will agree to the postponement of the consideration of this Bill I will express all my views on it when I get there. 470. But lam not talking about this Bill at all. What I want to know is whether you, with other Maoris who will be at this meeting, will be prepared to propound some scheme to, meet the views of the Natives?— Yes. 471. Do you think it possible a scheme can be devised at that meeting which will be acceptable to the Natives throughout the colony ?—I could not reply to that question now. When the meeting is held, then we shall know. 472. But supposing it is possible that such a scheme should be devised at that meeting, would the Maoris be prepared to submit it to the House for confirmation ? —Yes; there is only one Parliament over both races. 473. Mr. Stevens.] Your desire, as I understand, is to have the administration of Native affairs placed in the hands of Native committees ?—Yes. 474. How would those committees be composed? For example,we will take theNgatiraukawa and the Ngatikahungunu, and suppose their lands are to be dealt with by Maori committees, how would you form a committee between those two tribes?— Well, of course, the committee's proceedings would be just the same as the proceedings of the Court, but it would be much less expensive. 475. That is to say, the Ngatiraukawa would administer the Ngatiraukawa lands, and the Ngatikahungunu would administer the Ngatikahungunu lands? —No. The lands of one tribe would be dealt with by a committee composed of members of another tribe. 476. Why would you not allow the people themselves to deal with their own lands ?—Some of the members would be relatives of the litigants appearing before them, and would act accordingly.

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477. Then, your principle would be that every institution such as a large company, where the property belongs to a certain number of persons, should have its property managed by persons who have no interest in it?—A company is in a different position. 478. But there are large companies who own land?— You see the company is one body with a common account. Of course, they would be working to increase the value of that common account, whereas this would be a different thing altogether. Some would be in the committee, and some would be outside it, and the claims advanced by one person would be opposed by another, and so on. So I say a company and Maori rights to land can hardly be put as parallel cases. 479. Do you remember the power which was given to Maori committees in 1882 or 1883, when the Hon. Mr. Bryce was Native Minister ?—Yes. 480. The Maoris had power at that time to deal with their lands, had they not ?—I was one of the chairmen of the committee in my district. 481. Is it not a fact that each tribe elected its own committee from among its own chiefs, and did not bring in any foreign people ?—Yes ; that was so. 482. Did those committees work satisfactorily to the Maori people ?—Yes; but they were given no power. Those committees were appointed, but they were given no power to do anything. All that they were empowered to do was this : they must first agree to a man's application in a Native Land Court matter or an application for survey before it could be proceeded with. 483. Had they not power to make recommendations to the Native Land Court as to how land should be divided, and how a judgment should be arrived at ?—Yes; but the Court would not take any notice of the recommendations they made. Even if a Gazette notice were objected to the Court would still sit and hear the case, and when surveys were objected to those surveys were still continued. Therefore there was nothing for the committees to do. 484. In your opinion, that legislation was a failure? —Yes. No power was given. 485. Will you give the Committee shortly what your opinion is as to what you believe will be best for the future prosperity of the Maoris —the system under which they should live ?—I say that the committee for which I ask should have the same power and authority as is now exercised by the Native Land Court. If such a mana were given to the Maori committees they could frame all the regulations necessary. 486. I think you said in answer to the Chairman that you were in favour of having the whole of the lands individualised ? —Yes. 487. Assuming the committees had power, how many years do you think it would require to absolutely investigate the titles to the whole of the Native lands in New Zealand ?—I could not say, because some have money to proceed with partition and others have not. If a regular means of money-supply were found, I believe that two or three years would finish it off. 488. But if they have the land it is equivalent to money. They can always get sufficient money for surveys and subdivision?— That is what I say.- The tribe ought to be given the right to decide what should be done in these cases. Let the people decide and point out to each other what is the best course to pursue. 489. Then, you are of opinion that if there was a block of land of 10,000 acres, owned by twenty persons in a tribe, awarded to them and to which they held a title, the whole of the tribe should have a voice in the subdivision of that block ?—No. The twenty people owning the land should set up whom they chose to be their mouthpiece. 490. Do you believe that the large meetings which are held from time to time, such as those which have been held at Papawai and other places, are conducive to the welfare of the Maori people as a whole? —No. This is the House that should confer benefits upon the people, but it does not do it, and that is the cause of these Maori meetings which have been held. Many requests have been sent down here for concessions, but they have not been granted. 491. Then, you and all the other leaders of the Native people in New Zealand have been devoting your time more to these large meetings rather than to the care of your young children who are growing up, and teaching them something useful in the shape of farming or mechanics, and so on ? —The children are not being neglected. They are being instructed, and we have schools. These huis have not interfered with their instruction. 492. Learning to play billiards and the concertina?— Those are pakeha practices, not Maori. 493. How many Maori carpenters are there in New Zealand?— There are plenty of Maori boat-builders and carpenters. The Maoris built those large houses at Papawai. 494. Are there Maori blacksmiths ? —Yes. 495. Were there any at Papawai ?—There are in Heretaunga. What is the object of these questions ? 496. The object of the questions is this : that it is necessary for Parliament to pass such legislation as will be conducive to the prosperity of the Maori people, and I am anxious to show that it is not the want of legislation which prevents the prosperity of the Maori people, but their own innate indolence. Do you not think that the assembling of the Maoris in large numbers, as they have been doing hitherto, and the wasting of hundreds of pounds at those meetings, has been detrimental to the Maori race ?—No. 497. You think they prosper under these conditions?—l cannot admit that these huis have hurt the Maori people. It is the Court laws that have done it. Year after year, the Courts continue to sit, and the Maoris continue to sell their lands and to pay the lawyers. 498. The Chairman.] Then, why have they so much to do with the lawyers ?—The lawyers come and persuade them. 499. Mr. Stevens.] Is it not a fact that many of the Maoris persuade the lawyers they have a good case, and manufacture their genealogies, and deceive the lawyers in that way ?—I have known of some such cases, but the bulk of the blame is attachable to the lawyers. Even suppose it is an old man or an old woman, a lawyer will come up and make representations such as this tq

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him or her : " You have a grand case ; let me conduct it for you. Here are the reasons ; you must win, and it will only cost you £5 or £6 a day." 500. Do you remember the late Judge Maning, of the Native Land Court ?—I hayS heard of him. 501. You have heard of his being a clever man, and a man versed in Maori customs ? —I have heard so. I have never seen him. 502. You have just said it is the lawyers who mislead the Maoris ? —-Some of them. No doubt in other cases the Maoris are to blame; hut this Court is there, and they have been forced into these bad practices by that means. 503. But before the lawyers were admitted to the Court? What do you think of this statement made to me by Judge Maning ; that he was going to sit in the Native Land Court, and it was very difficult to decide, because people with claims and counter-claims came there, and the whole of them told falsehoods ?—Have the Judges never told lies ? 504. That was what was said to me ?—Everybody tells lies. 505. Then, that being the case, the lawyers are not necessarily the deceivers in these matters? —Well, that is the argument advanced on that side, and this is the argument on the other side, and nothing has been decided to prove whether this side is right or that. 506. We will now come to a more practical aspect of the matter. Your idea is that if a Maori committee were set up the subdivision of their lands would be performed with greater expedition than it is at present?— Well, I say it would cost less. It would be less burdensome ; it would not be quicker. 507. Not quicker?—No ; because, as I have said, if people have no money they cannot go on with their cases. 508. I am assuming that private persons are ready to bring their cases before the Court; would the investigation by the Maori committee be more expeditious than by the Native Land Court ?—Perhaps it would be, because the Maoris know the properties of others, and if a false statement were made they would know. The pakehas do not. 509. Are you not aware at this late stage of the day that the records of the Native Land Court show, with very few exceptions, the genealogies of every tribe and hapu in the colony ? —Yes, I know that; but the bulk of those genealogies are false ones. They have been altered during the sittings of the Court, 510. At whose instance?— The lawyers. A lawyer wanting to win his case will raise a genealogy to suit his case. 511. The Maoris would not do that, I suppose ? —ln former times they would not do it, but now they have imbibed these evil ideas from the lawyers. 512. Therefore, if a Maori committee were set up, it would have to Commence and take evidence as to occupation, as to genealogy, and as to everything else for the ascertainment of the title ? —Yes; just as the Native Land Court proceeds. 513. How many members would you suggest should be on each Maori committee ?—I could not commit myself to any definite statement as to the number now, because I might be compromising myself; I might be accused at some later stage of having given a wrong opinion. 514. You came here to give information so that the legislation may be based as nearly as possible upon the views of the Native chiefs who have come here ; otherwise we shall have nothing to guide us. I shall have nothing to guide me, and shall not know what to do ? —Very well, then, if you ask me for my own private opinion, of course I can give that. There are two descriptions of committees which I think would be desirable. One would be a committee of three persons to deal with light and easy matters. Then, for more important and weighty matters there would be a committee of twelve persons. 515. But they will only be called upon to decide questions of dealing with land. Do you mean to infer that the Maori committee is to deal with other questions?— With land and other troubles— any troubles which may arise between one section of the people and another it should be competent for this committee to deal with. 516. Do you expect to have included in the Native Land Bill a provision whereby the Maori committee will be empowered to deal with all other differences among the people and fine or imprison them? —Oh, no; lam only speaking about the land. The common law as it now exists operates equally over both Europeans and Maoris. It is only in the matter of the land-laws that there is any distinction between the two people. 517. What is the necessity of having two committees to deal with one general question relating to the land? Would there not be conflict if there were two committees ?—The committee of three men to investigate the titles to land would hold the original hearing, and then in the case of appeal the committee of twelve men would deal with it. That is what I think. . : 518. Do you think that the twelve members of the appeal committee and the three men of the minor committee would be men of greater integrity than such men as Judge Butler and Judge Mackay, for instance ?—Yes; oh, yes. If those other men had acted properly there would have been no necessity for asking for this committee. 519. Is it not a fact that those men who have lands awarded to them are satisfied, and those men who have not land awarded to them are dissatisfied ?—Yes ; but that shows that the Judges are wrong. A Judge goes and awards a block of land or an interest in it to a man whom he decides to be the proper owner, The man who is aggrieved appeals, and when the second hearing is held that land may be taken away from the man to whom it was awarded, and it may go to the man from whom it was taken in the first instance, proving that the Judge was wrong. 520. Is not that the fault of the Native claimants in not producing proper evidence in the first instance ? —Sometimes the Maori is blamable, sometimes the Judge. Some Judges do not understand what the Maoris mean, and it is not until the Appeal Court sits that they begin to understand it.

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521. Do you mean to tell me that Judge Butler and Judge Mackay and Judge Eogan and Judge Smith and all those Judges, who are old enough to be your grandfather, and who know as much about the Maori habits and customs as you do, do not understand what they are doing? Do you mean to tell me that is so?—I do not say all of them. I say some of them. Some give proper judgments, others do not, but if one Judge goes in a wrong direction I am justified in making a general charge against all the Judges. 522. Do you remember Henare Matua ?—Yes. 523. He was a clever Native, was he not? —Yes, he was ; and he was a truthful man and a liar. 524. Did not Henare Matua many years ago institute the idea of settling the Native-land question on the principle of having Maori committees acting without the intervention of the Government or the Courts in any way ?—Yes. I know he was one of the chairmen of the district committee there, and when he was deposed from that position I was chairman. 525. lam talking of the year 1873. Do you remember the great difficulty which arose with that section of the Ngatiraukawa which lives at Masterton ? Do you remember a block of land there called Weraiti ?—Yes. 526. Did you hear that Henare Matua's committee sat for eighteen months taking evidence with regard to that block?— Yes; I heard that. 527. Did you hear that there were immense piles of paper—closely written documents—connected with that inquiry ?—No. 528. I want to show you a sample of what a Maori committee is, and how expeditious it can be ?—Well, I fancy that perhaps there may be some misrepresentation with regard to that committee. It may have been successive committees which lasted over eighteen months. One committee did not sit for eighteen months. 529. That committee sat for eighteen months, for two months and three months at a time during all that time, and then they did not arrive at any conclusion in the end, and the Native Land Court had to settle it. Is that a sample of the kind of work these Native committees would perform if they were set up?— That was in 1873. The Maoris had not learned then. 530. I am endeavouring to ascertain from you any instance in which the Maoris have settled any question themselves ?—But the same argument applies here as applied to the first question I was asked about the Judges. Why should the fact of one committee having demonstrated its incapacity be used as an argument in support of the contention that every committee which might be set up at any time would do the same ? 531. You misunderstand my question. My question is : Can you give this Committee any instance of any Maori committee settling any land dispute as between different tribes, or between members of their own tribe ?—I cannot. There were lands I know in certain parts of the Island which were dealt with by Native committees, and satisfactorily dealt with, but I could not now give the names. 532. I wish you to understand that I am. not antagonistic to you in any way, but I want to get the information ?—I quite understand that. I have heard that there was some dispute about land, and the Maori committee dealt satisfactorily with it. 533. Do you not think it would be more expeditious to deal with the subdivision of Native lands if the Natives themselves had sufficient representation in the Native Land Court—if they had two Assessors instead of one, and excluded lawyers from the Native Land Court ?—I would, not agree to that. Try the committee first, and if we see it will not act try something else. The Court has been operating for many years, now give the committee a trial. 534. What is your objection to two Assessors sitting with the Judge ?—There have been two Assessors sitting in the Court before now, and they did not put a stop to the trouble. 535. How did the trouble arise? Was it because there were two Assessors?—Of course, when you ask me that question I must give you a direct reply. These men were given women to induce them to give a decision in a particular direction. The Maori Assessors are to be taken by that bait, and the Judges too. 536. Then, you would advocate emasculating the committee? —That has not been tried. We do not know how the committee would act. lam speaking from personal experience when I say that has been done in the Court. 537. With regard to the European Judges, do you think that the European Judges intentionally act dishonestly?— Yes. 538. Do you think they intentionally act dishonestly ?—Well, the questioner should know this : that if he looks back he will find that year after year shoals of petitions come in against decisions of the Judges, which show they must be wrong. 539. Is it not a fact that in the English law-courts there are constant appeals to the higher Courts ?—That is probably because the decisions in the lower Courts are wrong. 540. Then, you suppose this Maori committee which you propose should be set up will be absolutely immaculate, and will be unable to do any wrong in anything?— Yes, At any rate, that committee has not as yet committed itself to any wrong-doing, hut the Court has; therefore the two cases are not parallel. 541. You think that the members composing the committee will be more capable and more honest than any of the Assessors who have ever been appointed to the Native Land Court in New Zealand? —Yes. Even in the days of the first Assessors they were not persons who were selected by the tribes for any special qualification, but an Assessor was appointed, at the sweet will of the particular pakeha who got him the appointment. 542. Do you know that the late Eopata Wahawaha was an Assessor ?—I did not know that he was. 543. Well, I know that he was. Would you say that that man was capable of being bribed

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for the purpose of giving a wrong decision ? —I do not know whether it would or would not be possible to bribe him. 544. From what you know of his general character, do you think it would be possible to bribe him ? Was he not a chief of a very high character?—l think he would be bribable, because he went and killed people over the Island for money. 545. I am very sorry to hear you hold such a bad opinion of a Maori chief who is held in as high estimation as any chief in New Zealand ?—lt is not that I wish to throw any reprobation upon him. I was simply giving a direct answer to a direct question. The question I was asked was to describe the character of the man, and I have done it. 546. How would you propose to remunerate that Maori committee of three members, and that other committee of twelve members, for their services ?—Oh, give them some of the money that the Judges in the Native Land Court now get. The Judges get too much. 547. What amount of remuneration do you propose to give each member of the committee — how much per annum, and how much for travelling-allowance ?—I could not say. I believe the Court Assessors get 10s. 6d. a day. 548. In your opinion, the Assessors are all untrustworthy ?—Some of them. 549. The majority of them ?—Yes. 550. Do you expect to get men of greater integrity than they for a less salary than is paid to these men who you allege are untrustworthy ?—The people who have the vote for the members of the committee will put them into the position. What they want to do is to lighten the expense. 551. Do you mean to say that you expect those people who are to come in from outside districts will go amongst any particular tribe and givfe their services for nothing ?—I have said that they are to be paid, but not to the same extent that the Judges are. 552. You are asking the members of this Committee to recommend to the House the setting-up of a Native committee; can you to-day, or to-morrow, or some time or another give us an idea of how much the annual expense of each of these committees will be, because the mere statement that the committee would be better is not practical. We must understand what the expenditure would be ?—No ; I could not reply to that—not until the hui has dealt with the matter, and said how many committees should be appointed in the different parts of the country. 553. How .many committees do you consider necessary for the North Island, and how many for the South Island ? —Say, one for the South Island and three for this Island. That would be four. Let them be within the electoral districts which return Maori members to Parliament. That would be one for each Maori electoral district. 554. The Chairman.] I should like to ask you a couple of questions with regard to questions put to you by Mr. Stevens. You said that when a case was brought before the Native Land Court, and an appeal made to the Appellate Court, and that Court reversed the decision of the Native Laud Court, it showed that the Native Land Court was wrong ?—Yes. 555. Then, if the Appellate Court confirmed the decision of the Native Land Court the decision of the Native Land Court must be right ? —Yes. 556. I am very glad to hear that, because it will assist the Committee materially in dealing with some petitions we have before us. I understood from you also that the great majority of those who composed the Assessors of the Native Land Court are open to bribery ?—Yes. They are ignorant people. They are people who have been taken up by some pakeha. Some of them are men of intelligence. 557. Would that apply to other Maoris : that they are more or less subject to,bribery ?—Some of them —just like Europeans. 558. Would the Maoris find a difficulty in getting a sufficient number of really honest men to make up these committees which you propose to set up ? —lt would be left in the hands of the Maori people to select the men who they thought would be fit to sit on the Maori committee, and if they found a man was not running straight they would depose him, and appoint somebody else. 559. Mr. Monk.] Do you maintain the insinuation that you made a little while ago : that some of the European Judges have been influenced by improper intercourse with Native women; and not only the European Judges, but the Native Assessors also ? —Both. 560. Do you really know that such is the case, or are you talking at random ?—I have seen the Assessors do it, but Ido not say I have seen the Judges. But they are both officers of the same Court. 561. But it is only hearsay ?—I have never seen it; I have heard it. 562. Mr. Kaihau.] I understand the witness to say that he objects to the Bill from the top right down to the bottom ?—No ; I said I agreed to the head of the Bill. The proposal to preserve the lands of the Maoris I agree to. 563. Then, that part of the Bill which provides for the absolute prohibition of the sale of lands is the part you are willing to agree to ?—Yes ; that is what I say—l and the more than ten thousand people who are opposed to the Bill. If the Committee likes to look at the petition of these people they will see that that is what they are particularly desirous to obtain —to put a stop to the sale of lands. 564. There is a part of the Bill which provides that the control of all these matters is to be left to the Minister of Lands and the Native Minister; are you willing that they should hold that position ? —Those are the provisions of the Bill to which I say I will not agree. 565. I understood you to say that you are desirous that this Bill should be held over until it is submitted to the hui' which is shortly to be held at Waitangi ?—Yes ; that is what I said : there is a hui going to sit there in March next, but if the hui sits in any other place the Bill should be taken there. 566. If the Bill is taken there, what do you think the people assembled will have to say to it?—l do not know what the people will do, because they are each living in their own place. What I say is this: The hui is going to be held at Waitangi, and it is for people of knowledge from

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all parts of the Island to go there. Let it be notified beforehand that this is a matter to be discussed. 567. If any of the people are desirous that this hui should be held at some place other than Waitangi, which may be considered too far away, would you agree ?—I do not care where the meeting is held. lam quite agreeable.

Pbiday, 14th October, 1898. Mr. Mohi te Atahikoia in attendance: examination continued. Mr. Wi Pere : I should like to be allowed to put a question to the witness. I should like to ask him to withdraw certain statements which he made when he was last being examined with regard to the late Major Eopata Wahawaha. He must know, on reflection, that what he said then was without foundation in fact. May I ask that question ? The Chairman : Yes ; but, of course, it will rest with the witness to withdraw the statements or not, as he chooses. 568. Mr. Wi Pere.] I will, then, ask the witness to withdraw the statements he made ? —I will withdraw them. Mr. Carson : What is meant by that withdrawal ? Does the witness mean to say that he made a statement which was not true, and that he now withdraws it ? The Chairman : I understood the statement he made was with regard to Native Assessors who attend the Native Land Court. He said that the great majority of them were liable to take bribes, and Mr. Steveus asked him whether he considered the late Major Ropata Wahawaha was like the rest. Mr. Carson, : Then, it was merely a matter of opinion. Mr. Wi Pere : The reason I ask that the statement be withdrawn is because I did not thin at the time that the witness was giving his own honest opinion on the matter. He was being crossquestioned about a previous statement, and the question put to him led him to say what I think he must be sorry for having said. The Chairman : The statement is withdrawn. 569. Mr. Eaihau.] On the last day on which we sat dealing with this Bill, in reply to my last question, you said that your desire was that, if possible, the further consideration of this Bill might be held over until next session, and chat in the meantime it should be submitted to the Maori huis in different parts of the Island. Do you believe that if the course which you have proposed were followed, and the Bill were submitted to the Maori meetings in different parts of this Island and of the other Island, there is any likelihood that those meetings would entertain or support any of the provisions contained in the Bill as it now stands ?—The meetings would consider and discuss the matter. 570. What I mean is, would they be likely to support the Bill, or would they be likely to object to it ?—The petitions show that all they want is that their lands shall be reserved and sales restricted. 571. Can you explain the reason why these Maori huis are held?— The reason these Maori meetings are being held year after year is to talk over the troubles which have befallen the Maori people through the laws passed by the Government of this country. 572. Do I understand you to mean that they oppose the Native Land Court and all it does? —Yes. Most of the trouble which has arisen has been through the medium of that Court. 573. Do you include in that condemnation of the Court the Appellate Court also ?—lt is because they were dissatisfied with the original proceedings that they feel that the findings of the Appellate Court are equally unsatisfactory with those of the Court of first hearing. 574. I will condense the question in this way, and ask you why are these meetings being held? Is it because they object to the Native Land Court, to the Native duties, to the dog-tax, to the rating of Maori land, and to the surveys, which they claim should not be made of Native lands, and so forth ? —Yes. In former times it was necessary that the Native owners should apply before their lands were surveyed ; now it is possible for the Government to step in and order a survey to be made whether the Maori owners of the land desire it or not. 575. I understood you to say just now that the people in all parts of the Island were strenuously opposed to the Native Lands Settlement'and Administration Bill; is that so? —Yes. I think if this Committee will consider it cannot fail to recognise that it has never before had such a generally signed petition as this by the ten thousand persons opposed to the Bill, because these people presented an address to the Queen praying that their lands should be reserved and restricted, and the action which has been taken as arising out of that request is entirely different from what they asked for. 576. Supposing the Premier, despite the ten thousand people, whose petition is before this Committee, and despite the representations which have been made by the witnesses who have given evidence on this matter before the Committee as expressing the views of the various tribes whom they represent, ignores the wishes of the Maoris, goes against this petition and these witnesses, and forces the Bill through this session, what do you anticipate would be the ultimate result of such action ? —I believe that if the Premier persists in ignoring the wishes of the Maoris, as expressed in the petition and in the address to the Queen, and proceeds with this Bill in spite of their remonstrances, they will appeal to the Queen again. 577. That is not what I mean. What I ask is this :If the Premier persists in carrying forward his Bill this session, and it becomes law, what will the Maoris do ?—They will object. If it is passed and becomes law the Maoris will refuse to accept it. It is an absolute seizure of their rights in the land, and vesting all in the Government, with power to administer and mortgage and deal with the lands as it likes. 7—l. 3a.

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578. What I understand you to mean is that the Maoris all over the country will bitterly resent such a measure as this becoming law, and that it may result in serious complications and troubles as between the two races throughout the Islands ?—Yes; they will all signify their objection. 579. Captain Bussell.] Do you consider the civilisation of the pakehas hetter than the present condition of the Maoris ?—Yes. 580. Do you not think it desirable to try and assimilate the civilisation of the Maoris to that of the Europeans?— Yes ; but, then, the laws relating to the land are different with regard to Maoris from what they are with regard to the Europeans. 581. Do you think there should be the same law for European lands and for Maori lands? — Well, I can hardly say " Yes " to that question, because the Maori lands have not yet been all individualised ; therefore they are not on the same footing with European lands. 582. Do you not think the Native is capable of being made as civilised as the European?— Yes ; but no power has yet been given to the Maori so to do. 583. Do you still hold to the opinion that the Assessors of the Native Land Court are liable to bribes in giving their decisions in the matter of their judgments ?—lt is a fact within my own knowledge. I have seen cases of the kind which have led me to say so. But, then, I would point out the original blame rests at the door of the Europeans who made these men Assessors; because they were not selected originally on account of their being men of rank and knowledge and capacity, but simply because they were European appointees. 584. Do you not think there would be a chance of interference with the proper action of the Native Board if the Assessor, as you say, is now liable to be bribed?— Yes ; but if the mana and authority in connection with the Board were in the hands of the Maoris, and they found out that a man was acting in such a way as that, it would then be their right to depose him at once. Maoris cannot do that in the case of Native Assessors now. 585. That is not the question. Would there not still be a liability to the same evil that you now speak of ?—Yes; all men are liable to that, or rather, I should say, some men. 586. You think the European civilisation is desirable, and you think the Native is capable of that civilisation? —Yes. 587. Then, do you not think it is desirable to place the Native in exactly the same position as the European on all subjects ? —I would point out that the Maoris are under exactly the same laws, as I understand the position, in every particular as the Europeans, except in the question of the land ; and the fact of their being under different laws and rules with regard to their lands is not their fault. It is the Europeans who did that. 588. Would you like Parliament to make a law putting you and your people in exactly the same position as Europeans ?—That is why we are asking that this power be given to the Maori people to go into the matter thoroughly and decide upon it. If they decide that that ought to be done, then it ought to be done. At any rate, they would be agreeable if they did not come to a decision to rest as they are. 589. Are you capable of managing your own business?— Yes. 590. Would you sooner manage your own business or put it in the hands of half a dozen other people to manage ?—I should prefer to manage it myself, and, if this mana which is asked for is given, I should certainly claim to be allowed to manage my own affairs and let others manage theirs. 591. Would it not be possible so to amend the law that instead of having your land administered by a Native Board you would be able to administer it yourself; you say you are capable of doing so ? —That is what I say. I want to see the right given to the Maoris to make land regulations. 592. I do not want an answer with regard to the Maoris generally, but with regard to yourself ?—That is what I wish to say. 593. Then, would it not be a good thing that you should be the owner of the land, as a European is, and not have it administered by other people, who would not be so careful of it as you would be ? —Yes. 594. Then, would it not be better to make a law so as to grant you your own land, at the same time preventing you selling all that is necessary to keep yourself and family in comfort for the remainder of your life ? —That is our desire—a desire common to myself and to all the other people in the Island. 595. Would you not object to giving the administration of your land into the hands of other persons instead of having the entire control of it yourself?—Of course, that should not be done. If the management of my land was given to somebody else it would not be satisfactory; but what we want is to obtain a restriction on the sale of our lands first of all, and then let us manage them ourselves. 596. You said that the Maoris object to the payment of land-tax, and rates, and dog-tax, and survey-fees. Do you not know that European lands are liable to all these charges ?—Yes; but a European cannot be called upon to pay for a survey of his land that he has not asked for and does not want; but in the case of the Maoris the pakehas force the surveys on them, and then make them pay. Then, with regard to the dog-tax, we know the trouble there has been up north amongst the Ngapuhi people about the dog-tax. They are Maoris too, and therefore lam justified in saying that the Maoris are opposed to the dog-tax. 597. Do you think that if a European had acted with regard to the dog-tax as the Maoris up there did he would have received the same consideration, or whether he would not have been put into gaol in less than no time ?—Of course, a European knows his own laws, but the Maoris have not attained a full understanding of them all yet. The pakeha conies here from England with all his laws and machinery, and knows all about them. 598. Do you think a Maori ought to be allowed to keep a dog to worry his neighbour's sheep ? —Oh, no. It would not be right that a man's dog should be allowed to destroy another man's property. The question of which dogs should be slaughtered and which should be allowed to live

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should be settled, and that could be easily settled. One man may have sheep, and that may be his means of support, and another man may have a dog which will kill wild cattle and birds, and that may be his means of support. 599. And his neighbour's sheep ?—That, of course, would be wrong; but there is a law under which redress can be claimed by the owner of the sheep destroyed by dogs. 600. Do you not know, as an educated Native, that the law must be the same for both races ? — Yes; I have already said that the law is the same for both races as far as each individual is concerned, but in the case of Maori land it is different. That is the only case in which a distinction is made. 601. But the Native is not compelled to sell his land, is he ?—Oh, yes. As we have said here, these purchases are being proceeded with. 602. The Native need, not sell his land, need he ?—Yes, of course; but, then, there is this : There are two men; one of them wants money and the other wants land, and they exchange the one for the other, and it is hard to say which is acting wrongly. 603. Is not the way to prevent that to Crown-grant to each Native his own land, reserving sufficient free from the power of mortgaging or selling to keep him and his family for their lives ?— That would be very good. 604. Then, after he has provided for living for himself and family, what is he going to do with the remainder of his land? The European has to pay rates and taxes on his land, also dog-tax, and so on. Why should Native land not be the same ?—Let him lease, so as to get money to pay rates and taxes. 605. Yes ; but you agree that taxes should be paid, as there is to be the same law for the two races ?—Of course, the Maoris have not yet agreed, because during the past years the lessee is the man who has been called upon to pay the tax. Now it is demanded that the Maoris should themselves pay it, and they have not embraced the idea yet. 606. Mr. Kaihau.] Do I not understand your reply to mean this : that the Maoris ought to pay rates and they ought to pay taxes and all that sort of thing the same as Europeans, but they should pay them into the hands of the Council or Board which is to be constituted to deal with their affairs ?—I cannot reply to that question. I do not know that that Council has been appointed to deal with Maori lands. 607. Captain Bussell.] Would you like myself or anybody else to bring in a Bill in another session to individualise the titles, so that each man shall be the owner of his own land, and have sufficient made inalienable to prevent his ever being in want ?—I should like to say this : I should prefer that you did not frame any Bill or propose any legislation of the kind until you have made yourself acquainted with the necessities of the case. What I should like is that this Bill should be held over until next year, and that in the meantime the Premier and the leader of the Opposition should go round the country and endeavour to ascertain thoroughly from their own inquiries what are the requirements of the case. Let them meet the Maoris at their meetings all over the country and listen to what the Maoris propose. 608. Do you believe that Parliament will agree to a Native Board entirely apart from Europeans to manage their affairs—without any interference on the part of the Europeans ?—Of course, it is for this House to say so; I cannot say what I think. I know if I were the person who might give permission I might say "Yes," but the giving permission does not rest with ourselves, it rests with the Parliament to give that. 609. If you cannot get the Native Board, do you not think that some such scheme as I have suggested would be the next best thing ? —Yes ; but I should like to see all proposals first submitted to the Maoris. It is a practice of that people—it is a national characteristic of the Maori that, although a measure might be proposed which he knew in his own heart was entirely good, still, because he was not consulted or present when the movement was initiated, he would swear that it was wrong. I fancy the pakeha himself to be something of the same sort. 610. Mr. Carson.] Do you think that the average Maori is equal with the average European in looking after his own interest ?—Well, of course, the Maoris hitherto have not been trained at schools, and therefore there are lots of things they do not know; but there are young people who attend the schools now, and they understand more of things from the European standpoint than the old Natives. 611. Captain Bussell.] Do you know the Hatuma Block, in Hawke's Bay ?—Yes, 612. Do you know that it has been taken from the owner, notwithstanding he is a strong and powerful man, because he has too much land ?—I have heard so. 613. Do you not fear this might happen to the Natives also ? —I think that such a law as that should only affect the pakehas. It should not be brought into operation upon the Native lands, because the Maoris have only one country—New Zealand. Now, the pakehas own the whole world, and it is easy for them to go outside New Zealand and take land anywhere. If the Maoris' land is seized they cannot go anywhere else. 614. But whether it is right or wrong do you not think it is likely to happen ?—No. I say, do not on any account permit such a law to be passed in connection with Maori land. 615. But do you not think such a law may be passed ?—Oh, yes. Pakehas can make any laws they like. 616. Then, would it not be better to cut the land up into smaller blocks and individualise the titles to prevent the larger blocks being taken ? —Oh, yes, lam agreeable to that. The only trouble is that now some people have money to divide up their land and others have not, and no doubt the people who have money will quickly have their land cut up, and those who have no money will not. 617. Will you during the recess lay the scheme I propose before the people and let them talk it over ? —Yes ; I will lay all the suggestions before them; but they can come to a better opinion of what you have said and what I have said if it is translated into Maori, so that I can take it with me. I shall be at all the huis.

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Mr. Eawhiti in attendance, makes a statement, and is examined. 618. The Chairman.] Do you wish to make a statement ? —I wish to make a short statement. First of all, I wish to greet the Chairman and the members of the Committee ; then I wish to say that I support all that has been said by previous witnesses with regard to our petition. We who are here in Wellington are the delegates of the various people who, for the reasons described, are opposed to the Bill which is now before this Committee. We had a meeting with the Premier in the school-room in Sydney Street. There we decided that if we had not sufficient time to express all our views to the Premier in connection with the Bill on that day we should have another opportunity of doing so. The Premier said to us on that day at the meeting that we, the people who are opposed to this Bill, had got no ideas to submit, no scheme to propose, in substitution for his—that our ideas must be up in the skies, floating about among the stars. So we asked him then to let us see his real Bill, and to tell us whether it was the Bill he had taken round the country and shown to the Maoris, or whether it was something else. He told us that the Bill he had laid before the Maori meetings was the Bill, but that he would show us the Bill he proposed to introduce to the House. When we first saw that Bill we found that it contained a great many more clauses than the original Bill which had been taken round the country. Now, the people who are objecting to the Bill are objecting to the original Bill which he took round the country, because they have not seen this one, and I have no doubt that if they saw this Bill they would oppose it even more strongly than they have been doing up to the present. Te Heuheu has expressed to the Committee fully what are our views and our reasons for taking exception to the Bill as it now stands. Therefore I say, shortly speaking, that I support all that Te Heuheu has said in connection with this matter. The only part of Te Heuheu's evidence which I cannot indorse is that part in which he claims to represent the views of the people of the different parts of the Island. He spoke of the kauhanganui and the kotahitanga, and so forth. There I do not agree with him. What I say is this : that even if the people are divided up, and some of them, as he says, embrace the views of the kauhanganui, and others are adopting the kotahitanga, still, as a matter of fact, they both hold the same views. Their petitions, which have come here signed by ten thousand people, they have signed as one people combined with a common object to oppose the Bill, and there is no distinction in the petition. They do not say, " Some of us are for the kauhanganui and some of us are for the kotahitanga." Therefore I wish, to correct what I believe was a false impression that might have been created in the minds of the Committee. It might have led to the Committee believing that we are separated into two parties. That is not so. We are all of one mind in this matter. Then, in part of Herepete's evidence he said that the Waikato people advocated one line of action and the kotahitanga another. I would reply to that very shortly by saying that there was a hui held at Wahi, in the Waikato, last March. The people were all there, and there was no split amongst them. Eepresentative chiefs were there from both the East Coast and the West Coast tribes, and they were all agreed upon the same thing. There was no split amongst them whatever. Therefore I say the Committee ought not to be misled by what Herepete has said into a misconception that these people are two distinct factions. They are not. That is all I have to say in support of our petition, and in explanation of the reasons why we have sent it in as opposing this Bill. 619. Captain Bussell.] I want to ask you the same sort of questions I asked the last witness. If a Maori had a flour-mill, or a saw-mill, or a flax-mill, or the management of any property of his own as he liked, would it not make him a better man than if he were placed under the control of any Board, whether composed of pakehas or Maoris ?—Oh, yes. 620. Then, ought not our legislation to go in the direction of giving him his own land, instead of giving it into the hands of a Board of Europeans, or of Maoris and Europeans, or a Board of Maoris only ? —Yes. That is why the Maoris are asking for this power that they are now seeking, because the laws which have been made to deal with them and their affairs have been so unsatisfactory that they wish to have power to make their own laws to lead up to such a state of things as that you speak of. 621. If you cannot get such a Board as you want, ought not some other scheme to be devised? —Yes; but the Maoris ought to be acquainted with what is proposed to be done. 622. During all the time that you can remember, have you ever known a power to be absolutely given up by the Europeans to the Maoris ?—No. 623. Do you think that is more likely in the future than it was in the past ?—The only thing that seems to point in that direction as yet is the question of what was done with the Urewera land. In that case a special Act was passed to enable the Maoris to deal with the land themselves. So I have been told. 624. Doyou know what was the object of that legislation?— No. I only know that a special Act has been passed for that district. 625. Do you know what the thin edge of the wedge is?— Yes. 626. Do you know who has got the maul ?—The Government, of course. 627. And who is the log ? —The Maoris and their land. 628. I want to protect them from that ?—Yes. 629. Do you not think to give to each man his own land, reserving sufficient for himself and his family inalienably, is better than this administration by a Board? —Oh, yes; that would be the best. 630. Then, why not agree to some such proposal?— Because during the times that have passed things have turned out so entirely different from what it was thought the scheme would be when it was first proposed that the Maoris are very cautious about accepting a new suggestion. It may look very nice and all right on the face of it, but it may turn out when put into operation that it will act in a very different direction from that they supposed it would. 631. But if a man is given a piece of land for himself and his family, and is told that he cannot

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either mortgage or sell it, what harm could come then ?—The way in which .1 reason the thing out is this : that the Native land laws have been so very unsatisfactory in the past that the Natives have recognised there is no satisfaction at all to be got out of them. Therefore they have come here and have begged to be allowed to make their own laws. 632. Do you think in your heart of hearts that they will be allowed to make laws ?—I do not suppose the power will be given to them, but still I would point out that the authorities who deny these rights to the Maoris do not concede this either: that the Maoris are not going beyond what they have a right to ask in asking for these things, because under the Treaty of Waitangi these things were assured to them 633. Supposing under my proposition a man has a sufficiently large piece of land, which he cannot alienate, given to him to support himself and his family, and that he has ether land in addition to that piece, would it not be better for him to sell the land which he cannot occupy, and carry it over to the other land in the shape of ploughs, and buildings, and cattle, and so on? He is deprived of his land, but he is putting it on to the other land in the way I have suggested, and is a better man for it: is not that so ?—Oh, yes; that is what the Maoris want. 634. Very well, then, when he has got that will he not want immediately to grow better sheep and better cattle and better oats and better wheat than his neighbour, and will not that make him a better man ?- —Yes. 635. Ought we not, then, to legislate in that direction ?—That is what we want, but we want any proposed or contemplated legislation of that kind first submitted to the Maoris, so that they can discuss it, and you discuss it with them. The people now do not know what is being done, how an Act is being put together. It is because they do not understand the forms and proceedings in these cases that they want to be allowed to do it themselves. 636. But supposing that cannot be done by themselves. You have just told me that the Government never goes back, never gives up power, and they will not give back to the Natives what they have taken from them. Would it not be better that such a scheme as this should be devised and shown to them and brought in next year?— Yes. Let the proposed scheme be drawn up and submitted to the Maoris all over the country. 637. One Native is put on the land in the way I suggest, and another has his land managed by the Board; whose children will be the most intelligent and have the most "go" in the country when they grow up ?—Of course, the children of the man who permanently occupies and works his own place. 638. Then, why not agree with my scheme?—l say that is what the Maoris wish to see attained. 639. Then, during the recess will you go to these meetings and be the apostle of my scheme? —Yes ; but we want to see the scheme. I hope you will go and explain your views, and I will certainly help you, because you and I would then go about together and stand up at these huis and explain to the people what your idea is, and then if they find it was a workable scheme and one that should be adopted, why, we should bring the Maoris over to us. 640. Mr. Wi Pere.] I wish to ask a question arising out of a question asked by Captain Eussell just now, and which the witness agreed to. What description of reserve did you mean when you agreed to what Captain Eussell asked you—if you did not think that it would be a good thing if the Native lands were individualised and such portions as were necessary for the support of the people should be reserved?, —Absolute restriction. 641. How ?—So that the land which is to support the people cannot be sold. 642. And when one Government goes out and another comes in and takes off the restriction that has been placed on the land, is that the kind of thing that you mean ? I want to know the kind of restriction that you mean ; is it a restriction that it would be possible for one Government to put on and for another Government to take off?—l mean some such description of restriction as could never be taken off. 643. And would you have a limit specified to the length of time that an absolute restriction is to extend over the land, or would you have it for all time ?—For all time. 644. Mr. Kaihau.] I heard you say that you supported Te Heuheu's statement ?—Yes ; with reference to our petition. 645. Do you know that Te Heuheu said what he wanted was a runanga, to be composed of Maoris only?— Yes. 646. And you know that laws have been passed in this country affecting the lands of the people, and the sea, and the work, and everything that can be thought of? —Yes. 647. If the Maoris get this mana for which they are striving, and the runanga is constituted of Maoris only—the runanga, or Council, or Board, or whatever it may be called—what will be the first action that body will take in connection with the land ? I will begin to ask you about the land first? —I think they will gather the people together first, and, having done that, they will then lay down their line of policy. 648. That is not what I mean. You know, as you have already admitted, that there are laws in existence now under which the Native Land Court ascertains titles, and the Native Land Court Office issues those titles, and the Survey Office manages matters in connection with surveys, and other offices administer matters in connection with other things—duties, and so on. Now, how will the Maori people be able to perform all these things? —They will have to be given the mana to do so. ri 649. What about the Queen ? As the Queen is the protector of the Maoris, if they get these rights, and manage all these things, what about her? Is she not to participate in the benefits which will accrue to the Maoris under this scheme ?—lt would be possible to make provision for the Queen amongst other things. 650. If this runanga is constituted and is given the mana for which it seeks, and it makes surveys and receives the money for them, will it set apart a portion of that survey-money for the

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Queen? —If they decide that a portion of the money shall be set apart for the Queen, then it shall be done; if they decide that no portion of the money shall be set aside and given to the Queen, then it will not be done. 651. Do you think that would be a proper course for the runanga to pursue—that is to say, in the event of its deciding that the Queen should not have any part of this money, do you think that would be treating properly the lady who has looked after their interests, and. who has made it competent for them to make the application they are now making under the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi ? —I think it would be quite right that they should not pay her any portion, if . they decided that it was right they should not pay anything, and it would he quite right that they should pay her something, if they decided that they should pay her something. 652. Then, you mean that the Queen ought to be given some?—l have said " Yes." 653. You have said two things. You have said that if the runanga says "No" it will be " No." Then I asked you if they decided it should be paid would it be paid, and you said it would be paid, so I suppose you then meant " Yes." However, I will leave that. 654. What arrangements would you propose should be made with reference to the rates on Maori lands if the runanga gets this mana ?—I think that this is my reply to your question : that it is because the rates imposed upon the Maoris are so heavy that the Maoris object to these rates, and I think they ought to be reduced by half. 655. But who is to get this half?— The Maoris, of course. The Maori rates belong to them. 656. And what about the Queen and the Government of New Zealand ?—You have already had my reply to that question. If the runanga decide that a portion of the rates should be set aside for the Government, then it would be for them so to arrange. If it is not so, if they find it is not right it should be done, then it would not be done. 657. What is your own individual opinion—never mind the hui ? —I think if the Maoris impose these rates the Maoris should draw them themselves. The Chairman : What rates is he referring to—the road rates ? Mr. Kaihau : The rates on land. The Chairman : To make roads ? Mr. Kaihau: Yes. 658. The Chairman (to witness).] Then, if the Natives do not pay any rates who is to make the roads ? —The Maoris make them. Supposing they get their runanga they will have a right to levy rates to make roads. 659. Then, it is immaterial whether they are whole rates or half-rates ?—What I meant to say in reply to Mr. Kaihau was this : that the Maoris have to pay such heavy rates now that they object to it, and if they once have the authority given to this runanga which they seek to constitute, then the runanga should impose such rates as it thought right to impose, and use them for necessary purposes. 660. Mr. Kaihau.] I think you said in reply to my question that the Maoris were to have halfrates? —Yes. 661. Is not that traversing the Queen's laws in this country, and in England, and in every other country in the world? —Yes; I know that. 662. If that be so, how can it be possible to do this?—l have already said in my first remarks that the Maoris are asking for rights under a certain part of the Treaty of Waitangi—that they shall have the right to administer their own lands, their own property, and their own affairs. So this would not be trampling on the law. It is itself part of the law. 663. But that is not clear, because you say that the Maoris are to levy rates on their own lands, and to draw them themselves, and they are to have the right of sale, and the right to hold their lands, but the Treaty of Waitangi says that the people in New Zealand must be guided by the law, they must act within the law the same as in England, and the Act under which rates are levied in this country is an Act which has been brought from among the English laws. Therefore I ask you if you mean that the rates which may be levied by the runanga, or Council, or Board within its districts should be divided in half, and a portion of it drawn by the Maoris and the remaining portion given to the Queen, just in order to show that it is not in opposition to the law. Is not that what you mean? —I made a general statement first. I did not particularise. The question asked me since is that I should particularise as to rates, and I said the Maoris were suffering from what they considered a great injury under the rates on their lands now and sought this means of redress.

Tuesday, 18th October, 1898. Mrs. Niniwa-ki-te-eangi in attendance, and examined. 664. The Chairman.] Do you wish to make any statement to the Committee?—l wish to explain to the Committee that I and those who are with me have had a long deliberation, and have come to the conclusion that we have exhausted what we have to say on this subject. Ido not think there is anything left for me to speak about. 665. Mr. Stevens.] Are you in favour of Native committees instead of the Native Land Court dealing with the question of land titles ?—I prefer the Native committees. 666. You heard what was said by a witness : that there should be four Native committees for the whole of New Zealand ?—I should not like to say at present whether I think there ought to be four or more committees. 667. Do you not think that four would be too few; that with only four Native committees it would take a great many years to settle all the questions of subdivision, for example ? —I think that four would perhaps be too few, and that there ought to be more. 668. You also heard the objections made to the actions of the Assessors ?—Yes. 669. Would it not be necessary to have more Native committees than there are Native Land

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Court Judges at present in order to settle the question, of Native-land difficulties and disputes?— The Court travels about the country from place to place, but the committees we speak of would, be located in particular parts of the Island, and would not move about. 670. Would you not require to pay these Native committees ? —I think they would not require payment; they, being Maoris, would not want to be paid. 671. Are they like the moa bird, and live on wind ?—They would be like other Maoris, and would not require to be paid for everything they did. Of course, if they used European conveyances, such as railways and cabs, they would have to pay for them, and also if they had to put up at hotels they would have to pay their expenses there, but not otherwise. 672. Then, you think that the colony should be relieved of the cost of the Native Land Court as at present constituted, and that the Maoris would do the work themselves for nothing ?—Yes; I would say let the Maoris do the work themselves. 673. Would they require recording clerks and interpreters, as they have in the Native Land Court now ?—What would interpreters be required for if it is Maoris dealing with other Maoris with regard to land ? It would be for the European side to find an interpreter if a European took a land case before the Maori committee. 674. Are there not many cases of conflicting titles between Europeans and Maoris which arise every day, and which would require to be taken before the Maori committee to be settled ?—Yes, that is so. In those cases money would have to be found to pay the expenses. 675. Who is to find the money ? Would the Maoris find it, or the Europeans ? —The Maoris would find the money. They would have to lease their land, and get the money. 676. Supposing the Maori committees were set up as you desire, what would you expect them to do ? Would you expect them to decide to which hapus the land belonged, or would you expect them to individualise the land ?—I would propose that the committees should deal with the papatupu lands. 677. But there are no papatupu lands now? Can you tell us of any that exist?— That may be so ; in my district there are no papatupu lands. 678. What would you propose that the Maori committee should do with those lands that the Court has already dealt with ? —lf they found that in some cases the Court dealt unsatisfactorily with them, I suppose the committee should be given the power to amend the titles. 679. Then, the object of the committees would be to review all the work that the Court has done ?—Yes ; that would be one thing for the committee to do—to rectify the errors and mistakes of the work of the Native Land Court. 680. Then, in any proposed new legislation you wish to give power to the committees to open up any cases where there was dissatisfaction expressed by any of the parties ? —Yes. I think the committee ought to have power to do so. 681. With regard to the holding of land by the Natives, do you think they should hold them in common, or do you think that each individual should have his own land for his individual needs ? —I think that they should hold the land in common, and that the area for each man should be specified, but that the land should remain in one block. 682. Do you propose that those people who hold a block of land in common shall use and occupy the land, and cultivate it, and run their stock on it while they are holding it in common ? — The Maoris are people who easily agree with each other, and they could arrange to place stock and sheep on the land without any dispute. 683. But have they not had disputes about running stock on lands—that some have had too much and some too little ? —Yes. I have heard that that is so in some districts—that the people there have had disputes about the running of stock on the land. 684. The whole value of the land was eaten up by the lawyers, and the huis, and meetings, so that the owners of the land were left with practically nothing. Was it not so ?—Yes, that is so. There were Native committees in those days, and if they had taken the matter to the Native committee instead of to the lawyers the result might have been different. 685. The Natives of the Ngarauru and the Ngatiruanui Tribes have their lands subdivided—that is, the confiscated lands handed back to them after the war. All the Natives there have their titles individualised. Have they any disputes or troubles ?—I could not speak as to that. Ido not know about it. The only trouble of which I have heard in connection with that district is that of Te Whiti's men being imprisoned. 686. Was not the cause of the imprisonment the fact that Te Whiti and Tohu desired to control the whole of the people, and direct them, and not allow them to think for themselves or to have their individual possessions?— Perhaps that is so. Perhaps that may have been the reason. I have no personal knowledge of the matter. 687. Mr. Monk.] Have you got much land?— Yes. 688. Is it individualised?—-The areas are separated, but the block is still in one title. 689. Are there any co-owners with yourself in the one title ?—Yes. 690. Do you not think that some day, after you have gone, there will be some difficulty in dividing it up? —I could not answer for that. lam now only speaking for the present time. I could not speak for the future. 691. Have you any children?— No. 692. I suppose you have relatives ?—Yes ; I have a great many relatives. 693. Do you not think it would be better for yourself if you had your own portion individualised, so that you could will it or do what you liked with it ?—My lands are in this position : that they are separated and yet they are lying topu —that is, in one block; but if I were dying I would be in a position to will the land to any one I liked. 694. Then, it must be individualised. You must mean that the boundary-lines have not been run through ; but that is not occupying the land in common?— The lands are subdivided, but they are lying in one block.

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695. You mean that there are no dividing-fences, and you are all occupying it in common ?— Yes. 696. Do you not think that it would be better if all the Natives held their lands in that way, so as not to be afraid of any future litigation affecting their titles to their lands ?—Well, perhaps so, if they would do that, and fence their lands in. 697. It is not a question of fencing, but of ownership —I mean define the ownership. Would you feel that your position would be as good if you were holding your land under Native rights as in the manner you now hold it, by direct deed from the Native Land Court ? —I would prefer the Maori tenure. 698. Do you not know of instances where Native chiefs have encroached on the rights of others after they have sold their own land ?—Yes ; that was so when the Maori people were ignorant and did not know how to manage their lands, but now they have acquired knowledge and know how to attend to these matters. * 699. I think it is the other way. I think the Natives themselves were more particular, thirty or forty years ago, than they are now ?—I think that at the time you mention the Maoris did not know how to manage their lands—that is, as to getting titles to the land. They took the land up indiscriminately, and took other people's land sometimes. 700. Are you not judging of other people by your own experience, which has perhaps been a favourable one ?—No. In my district some of the land was sold by the chiefs without the consent of the people under the old system. 701. You speak of a Native committee. If we are to decide the Native-land interest now, do you not realise how necessary it would be to register the decisions and the titles which are arrived at for the sake of future generations ? —Yes, that is so ; and the Maori committee would have to do that. 702. But would the committee be in possession of offices and documents which would be, so to speak, perpetual ? —I will answer that briefly. The committee would have to appoint officers and attend to all the matters you mention. 703. But would the committee have the character and power which the Government has ? A Government never dies?— The committee would exist as long as the Maori people exist, and when the Maori people die out the committee would die out too. 704. But it is the character of a Government that it should be perpetual in its power in order to be efficient. For instance, some of your descendants a hundred and fifty years hence might want to know what the committee had done in these days : where would they go to find the document? Where would the records be kept ?—I could not answer that question. 705. But you should have a clear conception of the power and operation of the committee to know whether it would be the best thing to have ?—Yes, that is so ; but I say let the committee be appointed, and let them go into that question and decide upon it, and upon what committees in future should do. 706. You imagine that the committee should do certain things and not do others, and you should have a clear idea of how the machinery would be established to carry that out properly ?— That is a question which I have answered to the best of my ability. The tribes of the Island have not yet assembled together to discuss that view of the matter. 707. The trouble we have had in all the evidence we have heard so far is that the witnesses do not seem to have any clear conception of the machinery which would be efficient for carrying out the system they propose ?—Yes, that is so ; but we have asked that the body of the Bill be adjourned to some future time, and in the meantime we will consider these questions. Mr. Paratene Ngata in attendance, makes a statement, and is examined. Witness : My name is Paratene Ngata, and my tribe is the Ngatiporou, one of the principal tribes on the East Coast. lam an Assessor of the Native Land Court, and I am a Native Land Court Advocate, duly licensed. lam the representative of the people who have forwarded a petition in favour of this Bill, including my own particular tribe. What I have to say now is in reference to the Bill which was submitted by the Premier to the various Native meetings throughout the Island, and which was amended by a large meeting of the Maori people at Papawai. The amendments made by the meeting at Papawai have been printed in Engish and in Maori, and have been laid before the House. This is the Bill as amended by the Native meeting at Papawai. [Document handed in. See Appendices.] The Bill I have just put in is a precis or condensation of all the amendments made by the tribes representing certain districts in the Island. The amendments in this Bill were commenced at the meeting which the Premier attended at Waipatu. That was a large meeting, and there were a great many tribes assembled there. The labour of amending the Bill was commenced then, and these are the amendments made by that meeting at Waipatu. [Document handed in. See Appendices.] These amendments were submitted to the meeting at Papawai, and the Bill as printed with amendments is the result of that meeting. Another occasion on which amendments were proposed was when the, Hon. Mr. Carroll went to Wanganui to attend the funeral of Major Kemp. After him the Premier also went to Wanganui, and the tribes assembled there (among them the Ngatiruanui) gave their attention to this Bill, and these are the amendments suggested at that meeting [Document handed in. See Appendices.] These were embodied in a petition and forwarded to the Premier. These amendments also were submitted to the meeting at Papawai. Further amendments were suggested by a hapu on the East Coast, in the Takapau district. [Document handed in. See Appendices.] These amendments also were submitted to the meeting at Papawai. Then, there were further amendments suggested by the people living to the north of Napier —namely, in the Petane district of Hawke's Bay. These amendments were made at a large meeting of the hapus in that district, and they were also forwarded to the meeting at Papawai. [Document handed in. See Appendices.] Further amendments were suggested by hapus about Mohaka, in

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Hawke's Bay, which were also forwarded to the meeting at Papawai. [Document handed in. See Appendices.] Again, here are amendments suggested by the tribes at Wanganui, at a meeting convened by Te Whatahoro, and they too were forwarded to the meeting at Papawai. [Document handed in. See Appendices.] All these documents were considered by the large meeting at Papawai. There are some other amendments in manuscript by the hapus and tribes living about Porangab.au, and copies of these were also submitted to the meeting at Papawai. [Document handed in. See Appendices.] There are other amendments by the Ngatihineum Tribe, living at Tarawera, which were likewise submitted to the meeting at Papawai. [Document handed in. See Appendices.] Here are amendments suggested by a large section of the Ngapuhi, who are a large tribe; they were passed at two meetings of that tribe. These were forwarded to me at Papawai, and submitted to that meeting by me. [Document handed in. See Appendices.] There are other amendments made by the people living at Wairoa, but the bearer of those amendments did not give them to me, but took them back with him, so I have not got them to present to this Committee. All these amendments which I have handed in, together with the Premier's Bill, were considered by the meeting at Papawai, and the result is the Papawai Bill, which embodies the amendments which I have handed in to the Committee. I therefore formally lay before you the amendments and suggestions proposed by those who are in support of the measure. With regard to those who are here to oppose the Bill, they, too, were present at the meeting at Papawai when those amendments were made. Mohi te Atahikoia was the chairman, the first time the committee assembled to deliberate upon these amendments at Papawai, and he was there subsequently, and was present when all these amendments were made. After the meeting I came to Wellington with my fellow-chiefs to watch the passage of the Bill through Parliament, and to support the insertion of the amendments made by the meeting at Papawai. When the objectors to the Bill appeared, and among them Mohi te Atahikoia and others who had attended the meeting at Papawai and helped to pass some of these amendments, I was surprised at their coming here to object to the Bill. I would inform the Committee that the causes of dispute at Papawai, which led to the difference of opinion among the tribes, were three mainly. One section of the people wished to go into and deliberate upon the Bill submitted by the Premier. Another section advocated that the Bill should not be considered at all, but that it should be put on one side, and that they should ask the Government to grant them " home rule." A third section advocated the King idea —that is, the Maori Council Bill. These were the three sections into which the people were divided, and owing to the dispute which arose under these three heads the meeting eventually broke up and separated. But, speaking for myself and those chiefs who are with me, I may say that we turned our attention to the amending of the Bill submitted by the Premier, and the result of our labours is the amended Bill which I have handed in to this Committee. I will not go fully into the amendments made by the meeting to the Premier's Bill, because probably the Committee will further on put questions to me on the subject, but I would ask the Committee to look carefully into the amendments made by the Papawai meeting, and decide whether they cannot be adopted in the Premier's Bill, either wholly or in part. We ask that the mana over our lands shall not be taken from us. 708. Mr. Parata.] By " mana " do you mean the control of the land?—lt is the title to the land. We are quite willing to hand over to the Board the control and management of the land, but not the title —not the fee-simple of the land. We would also like to see the Natives having a voice in the management and control of the lands. In regard to the objections made by other Natives to the Bill, myself and the other chiefs who are with me would like to see this : We would suggest that the tribes who object to the Bill be put into districts by themselves. Let the Bill before the Committee be passed, with a view to its being put into operation in the districts which belong to the Natives who approve of the measure. 709. The Chairman.] You mean the Bill with the amendments which have been put into it ?— Yes ; the amendments as adopted by the meeting at Papawai. Those amendments show all that the Maoris thought of and would like to see inserted in the Bill. The original Bill as submitted by the Premier contained twenty-eight clauses, and the Maori amendments have increased the number to forty-five. They have inserted all they could think of with a view to improving the Bill, and these amendments are shown in the printed copy which I have submitted to the Committee. Supposing the Premier had submitted a Bill with only five clauses in it, nevertheless the Maoris would have increased that number, because the subject could not be exhausted by a less number of clauses than those shown in the Papawai Bill. 710. Supposing the Premier refuses to insert these amendments, what then ?—lf the Premier will not agree to embody these amendments in the Bill, then I would ask the House to do it. 711. But if the House also refuses? —That would end the matter. I could do no more. 712. Would you accept the Premier's Bill in that case? —Yes. I would ask the House to pass the Bill even if our amendments were not inserted, the reason being that the Natives petitioned the Queen for a measure of this kind, and the Queen's reply was that her Ministers in New Zealand would consider the petition. In pursuance of that reply let the Premier's Bill, even if it is not exactly what the Maori people want, be passed into law. 713. Would you accept it? —Yes, that is so ; that is what I mean. Why I say so is because such a Bill, passed into law, would be the Parliament's reply to our prayer to the Queen. Then, that would disclose the evils of the Bill, and the Maori people would see what they had got; and then they could in due course again lay the matter before the Queen, and show her the wrongs which had been done to them. I say this because we, the Maori people, have sought in vain year after year to get justice done to us. There is only one way open to us, and that is through Parliament. All the ideas and suggestions that have been made by the Maori people seeking a remedy for the matters which oppress them have failed up to the present time, and there is only one course open to them, which is the one which I and those of the Maori people who are with me have now adopted. The meeting at Papawai intrusted this Bill to me and to my fellow-chiefs, and asked us B—l. 3a.

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to bring it before Parliament, and ask that it be passed into law; and if Parliament did not pass it then well and good. I make this explanation so that the Committee may know that these are the amendments suggested by the Maori people, and we are bringing them here so that Parliament may consider them. Ido not think it is possible to pass one law which will suit the whole of the Island —that is, one law which would suit all the tribes of Natives in the Island, because the lands in the different districts are differently situated. It is in consequence of this that there are so many laws relating to the Native lands, and that the laws which relate to the Maori lands in one district are necessarily different from those which relate to Maori lands in another district. Then, again, the character of the land in one district is different from that in another district. In some districts the land is good, and in others it is poor in quality. In some it is very poor indeed. Therefore I do not think you can bring all the Maori land under one uniform system. In the South Island there are perhaps 200,000 acres of land still left to the Maoris. Those lands are quite differently situated to the lands in the North Island. Therefore Ido not see what use this Bill would be to the South Island. All the lands there are individualised, and are held in small holdings of 8 acres, and 10 acres, and so on for each person. I would suggest, with reference to these South Island lands, that they should be left as they are. Then, again, there are blocks of lands in the North Island which are cut up and the titles individualised. On the West Coast there are 200,000 acres under the management of the Public Trustee. All these lands are exempted from the operation of this Bill. In the National Park in the Tongariro district there are about 65,000 acres, and in the same district there are about 29,000 acres under the Thermal Springs Act. There are also Native lands under the Native Townships Act. All of these lands should be exempted from the operation of the proposed Bill. In the Arawa district there are 660,000 acres under the Thermal Springs Act which are also exempted from the scope of the Bill. Then, there is the Tuhoe 1and—656,000 acres, more or less—all of which is outside the operation of the Bill. In the Hauraki district all the land is under the Goldfields Act and other Acts which apply to the working of the kauri timber, and similarly certain lands in the Ngapuhi district. There are large areas there under lease for kauri-timber cutting. Then, again, there are lands in this Township of Wellington and in other parts of the North Island held under trusts made in former times. I think that all these lands should be outside the operation of this Bill. Again, there are lands in the possession of religious bodies handed over to them in trust in former times for educational purposes, and there are large areas of land leased by the Maoris to private Europeans. All these should be exempt from the operation of the Bill. As to the balance of the land still remaining to the Maoris, only a small area is good land that can be utilised by them. The bulk of it is mountains and waste lands. There are large areas, like that at Taupo, which are nothing but pumice. Similarly in the Ngapuhi district the land is poor. The bulk of the land which remains to the Maoris is of indifferent quality. That is why I say it might require more than one Bill to meet all the various aspects of the subject. Therefore the party which I represent formally asks the House to amend the Bill in the direction we suggest, and let it apply to the lands on the East Coast, and by-and-by, in due course, if amendments and corrections are required, we, the Maori inhabitants of the East Coast, could come to Parliament and have them made. The Parliament never yet made a law which remained without subsequent amendments being made to it. We ask that the lands be made inalienable, as proposed by the Premier's Bill: that you should pass that portion of the Bill, so that sales and the seizure of Maori lands for debt would be no longer permitted. All these restrictions should be placed upon the Native lands, and Boards should be appointed. The amendments show that the Maoris ask that four Maoris should be appointed to the Board, and that the fifth member of the Board should be the Commissioner of Crown Lands, and that he should be Chairman. That is what the Maoris want in regard to the appointment of the members of the Board. We ask the Committee to carefully consider that point, and if the Committee would like to add a European to the Board we would not object to one being so added, and so make the Board to consist of two Europeans and four Maoris. The Maoris naturally ask why should Europeans be on the Board at all, seeing the lands to be dealt with thereby belong entirely to the Maoris. Still, they dq not object to the Commissioner of Crown Lands being on the Board, and acting as Chairman and head thereof. Let the plan of there being four Maori members of the Board, with the Commissioner of Crown Lands as Chairman, be given a trial. The Board we propose would be the head administrative body, and under it there would be sub-committees in sub-districts. There would be two committees — a district committee, and then a block committee. These suggestions are shown in the amendments we propose, and we think that the general management would run smoothly under such a Board, and that the system would work well. The Board would act as a Court and take up the work of the Native Land Court; the committee would assist the Board in that work. The Board would give effect to and pass what the committees had dealt with in the way of adjudicating upon Native lands, especially in all those cases in which the decision of the committee Court is undisputed and not appealed against. In any case in which the decision of the committee Court was appealed against, that would be referred to the Board, who would decide it finally. The Commissioner of Crown Lands would sign all titles issued by the Board Court, and, as to registration and so forth, we would suggest that the present registration officers should be retained, and that they should have their staff of clerks and interpreters. We think this system would facilitate matters very much for the Maoris, because the committee would travel about visiting the kaingas, and so learn the wishes of the people generally. The system would thus work much more easily for the Maoris. The committees would not proceed as the Native Land Court does, by holding their sittings in the towns only. The committees would not bring the Maoris into the towns as the Native Land Court does, thus putting them to great expense in maintaining themselves while their cases are being heard. Then, if difficulties arose in which Europeans are implicated or had interests involved, the Board could go into those particular cases and settle them. The majority of cases being simple could be dealt with

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by the committees. In my district there are, I think, a million or half a million acres of papatupu lands still. If this Bill is passed, and the Board is empowered to decide the title to papatupu lands, I am sure that such lands in my district would be settled quite easily. Why we are in favour of a Maori Board is this : A Maori could not stand up in front . of a tribunal of that kind and tell falsehoods—commit perjury—because the sittings would be held before Maoris and be open to all. Maoris know each other's affairs so well that a man could not make a false statement without all the others knowing it and stopping him, whereas in a Court conducted by Europeans only those who have a case before the Court would be allowed to speak. No outside interruption would be allowed; nobody in the body of the Court who knew that a false statement was being made would be allowed to interrupt. A European Court -would not allow him to interrupt the proceedings ; and if any one interrupted in that way he would be ordered to be taken into custody for contempt of Court. What I have said applies to the papatupu lands. Next, with regard to subdivisions, what I have already said would apply to subdivisions also ; there would, be no difficulty. In the Native Land Court voluntary arrangements, when submitted by the Maoris, always give satisfaction. That kind of decision by the Court always gives_ satisfaction to the Maori people. Cases of that description take a very short time to hear, and then they are settled and done with, and give satisfaction. Such voluntary arrangements are usually settled by the Maori committees outside, and are then taken into Court to be given effect to. Now, subdivision cases could be dealt with in the same way, and what we, the Maori people, ask and petition for is that you, the Parliament, give us the power to settle our own matters, and we would settle them satisfactorily. Of course, difficult cases would not be among those which could be settled by the committees. Such would be left for the Board to settle, but all simple cases could be settled by the committees. The Native Land Court Judges know well that the most difficult cases in the Island have been settled through the instrumentality of these Native committees —that is, by voluntary arrangements —by their being discussed outside and settled in that way. I am an Assessor of that Court and a licensed advocate, and I speak from experience. I was the Assessor who attended the Court when the Ngatimaniapoto-Eohepotae Block was adjudicated upon, and when that large tract of country was subdivided. It was I who explained to the people how they should proceed. I did a lot of work not only in the Court but outside it, assisting the hapus and committees throughout the nine months during which the Court sat, and the Court completed eighty-six subdivisions of blocks during that time. In not one of those cases was an application for a rehearing made. The reason why those decisions were so satisfactory was because matters were settled outside by voluntary arrangement, and not left to the dictum of the Court alone. Those committees cost nothing. The Judge and myself were the only persons who were paid. Committees proposed to be appointed under this Bill would be able to perform their work in a similar manner with very little expense. In cases in which they were working in their own districts to settle their own lands there would be no necessity to pay them ; but supposing they had to travel outside of their own districts, then it would be only fair to pay them something. With regard to the subdivision of the lands, I approve of the suggestion made by some of the members of this Committee that subdividing the lands and individualising the titles would be beneficial to the Native people, and enable them to save their lands. But that could only be made applicable to certain classes of land. It could be made applicable to large blocks of land where the owners were few in number. It would suit such cases, and I think would work very well in level land suitable for agriculture. But in blocks of, say, 5,000 acres, where there are three or four hundred owners, I do not think it would suit, because if subdivision was carried out with regard to such lands the cost of surveys and all the other incidental expenses would come to more than the value of the blocks so treated. Then, there is also the question of registration, and there might be appeals, and the cost of all these surveys, and appeals, and other matters of that kind would come to more than the value of the land. 714. What would you do with those small blocks ?—I would in a case of that kind find out how many hapus there were in the block, and divide the block according to the number of hapus. If there were three or four—or whatever the number of hapus there might be—divide off each hapu's piece and leave it at that. If this Bill be passed, then each hapu could appoint one of its members to manage its affairs. The hapus could all be represented, and the body so constituted would be called the "block committee." This block committee would attend to the affairs of the hapus, manage them, and look after the rates and all matters touching the land. The block committee would, in fact, represent the hapus.

Wednesday, 19th Octobee, 1898. Mr. Paeatene Ngata in attendance: examination continued. Witness : Yesterday I finished that part of my statement explaining about the subdivision of lands, and, after explaining that, I pointed out that there were certain blocks, in which there were a great many owners, which would not be suitable for individualisation, and I said I would propose to cut those blocks into defined areas for the various hapus interested in them. With regard to blocks of that nature, I would suggest that there should be block committees appointed. They would be representatives of the owners, and act between them and the Board, and administer all matters connected with the people and the land. I think that in that manner things would be satisfactorily managed. In regard to measures for the benefit and welfare of the Maori people, I would suggest that the balance of the Native lands remaining to them should be reserved, and that the alienation thereof be absolutely restricted—that they be restricted for farms, kaingas, and pas. The alienation of all the lands which are being cultivated should also be restricted. I mean lands which are being stocked with sheep and cattle, in the same way as European lands are. With regard to their waste lands outside those which I have mentioned, I think that they should be

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handed over to the Board to be managed. I think the only way in which the Maoris can be saved and made prosperous would be to put them on the same footing as Europeans, and that they should work the land in the same way. I would go on to say that in my district—that of the Ngatiporou — all the blocks of land from 100 to 5,000 acres have very numerous owners in each of them. That is owing to the large number of people living in the district and the limited area of land. The tribe I speak of has now turned its attention to appointing block committees to manage their lands. They are following the European way of doing things. They have turned their attention to the growing of sheep, and to fencing their pieces of land as between the different hapus. The committees are managing all these matters very well, and there is no trouble. I should say that there are forty thousand sheep or more belonging to the Natives in that district, and they are all managed in the manner I have described. lam the principal person who manages these committees. The Europeans living in that district know that what I am saying is correct, and so do the Stock Inspectors. A large balance of the land is bush land, and lying in an unoccupied state. Besides that there is a large area of land the title to which has not been ascertained — -papatupu land. I may add that the amount of rents and moneys received by the Maoris on account of their stock operations is about £17,000 or £18,000 per annum. Most of this money is respent on improving the land, as my people follow the example of the Europeans in managing their affairs. The way that I would suggest by which the Native people could be saved and made prosperous is that they should hold all that remains to them of their lands, and manage them in the manner I have indicated. Their present principal grievance is that they have no law under which they can legally carry out all the ideas I have expressed. 715. Captain Russell.] Is there no law which will enable them to do this?— There is no law which will enable them to have their lands made inalienable. There is no special Act applying to my district as there is for other districts, such as a Eeservation Act or something of that sort. We commenced to put our lands through the Native Land Court in 1876, and they were under the Native Land Court laws from that time. I informed the Committee yesterday as to the papatupu land remaining in the district. Another provision which might be beneficial to the Maori people is that the committees should be authorised by law to manage matters connected with the Maori people in their respective districts. These committees would suppress Maori customs which are hurtful to the Native people —I mean such things as large Native meetings, where they consume much food and impoverish themselves—meetings for crying over the dead, and many other Maori customs and usages whereby they squander their substance. I would include also the suppression of the Maori tohungas. I would also delegate to these committees the management of the Native villages—that is to say, looking after their sanitary condition and following up the plans we see adopted by the Europeans with regard to their townships; also, to prevent the people being lazy, to prevent Natives living on each other—that is to say, to prevent them going to kaingas and stopping there a considerable time doing nothing and eating the people there out of their houses and homes. The committees should also direct the affairs of the hapus and tribes, so that each man would go out and earn his living in some form or another. These are the matters which I would hand over to the Native committees, and ask the House to legalise their actions. The suggestions which I have here mentioned are contained in the amendments which were agreed to at the Papawai meeting. Another matter which I would hand over to the committees is the control and management of the children attending schools. A large amount of money is now spent by the colony on the education of Maori children, and when these children return to their homes it is simply wasted on them. That is on account of the unsuitableness of the Maori kaingas as places of residence for the children, because they are trammelled with Maori customs. The parents do not save.their money; they squander it in drink and other things. As an instance of this, I may inform the Committee that I am one of those who endeavoured to bring up and educate my children as Europeans. The Committee know that my son has qualified, and is now a barrister and solicitor. I think that many other Native children would pass and be qualified to take their places among Europeans had their parents taken the proper steps with regard to them. I would hand over the management of these affairs, including the control of children going to school, to the committees. Another curse of the Maori people is drink; but I cannot suggest any way in which to stop that amongst the Maoris. I can only inform the Committee that that is one of the evils under which they suffer. These various matters which I have mentioned are what the Maori people ask and pray of Parliament to put into the Bill, so that they can have the control and management of them. The committees would also be able to assist the Board in connection with matters in the Native Land Court, in settling titles to Native land, and suppressing those evils which arise out of Maori customs. I am sure that if Parliament gives effect to our request it will have a very beneficial effect, and the tribes would endeavour to carry all these things out. Now, with regard to the Premier's Bill, I will leave the consideration of that to the Committee. All that the section of the people whom I represent have to do is to support the Bill. I would ask the Committee to include the word rahui (reserves) in the Bill, beginning at the title right through to the end. If you look at the Premier's Bill, for instance, you will see that the word rahui is not put into the heading of the Bill, and it ought to come in there. There are also many sections and lines in the Bill into which I would suggest that the word should be put. It would satisfy the Maori mind if that word were put into the Bill wherever it is required. The restriction which I would have placed on these reserves is not a restriction which could be taken off at some subsequent time by the Governor in Council. I want it to be a permanent restriction, absolutely for ever. By subsection (2) of clause 7 it is provided that the Governor can appoint two Europeans to the Board. The meeting at Papawai amended that provision in this way : that there should only be Maoris on the Board—four Maori members, and that the Commissioner of Crown Lands should be Chairman. I mentioned it yesterday, and I repeat it to-day, and again ask the Committee to look

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into this point. If it is thought advisable to put another European on the Board, put in one only, and not two as provided for in the Bill. As I understand it, the only object in having Europeans on the Board is to instruct the Maoris as to the business of the Board. The lands to be dealt with by the Board belong to the Maoris only, and probably will have to bear the whole of the expenses of management. I merely explain this point to the Committee, and then leave the matter in their hands. I will now come to sections 11 and 12 with its subsections down to (7), and I would like to impress on the Committee, with regard to this portion of the Bill, that it could not come into operation at once. It would be delayed, because some of the persons who own land would wish to have this portion of the Act made applicable to their districts, while no doubt some of the other owners might object, and send in petitions to that effect. These objections would be referred to the Natives living in the district to settle by vote, and I think perhaps a section of the Natives living in the district and not wishing to have the Act brought into operation would be able to get enough on their side to defeat the Act. In other words, they would effectually oppose the petition asking for the adoption of the Act. Of course, it would follow that if the petition failed the opposing side would carry the day, and the Act would not apply to that district, the consequence being that the lands of the district would not come under the Act, but would remain as they are, so the people living there and having lands in the district would have a grievance. For instance, in a district where a majority of the blocks of land are leased to Europeans, only the smaller portions would be in the hands of the Maori unleased. That is what I wish to explain to the Committee with regard to those sections, and I would inform you that you will see the amendments proposed in them in the Bill as amended by the Papawai meeting. The amendments made by that meeting in sections 7 to 10 inclusive are to this effect : that if the Bill passes its operation is to begin at once in the various districts throughout the Island. I suggested yesterday, in regard to the people in those parts of the Island who object to the Bill, that their districts should be cut off and administered under some other system. I think I said yesterday, also, that this Bill should be made applicable to the East Coast, and to all other tribes supporting it. When this Bill is passed and Boards are appointed the first duty of a Board will be to call Native meetings throughout the various sub-districts within the Board district. The Board would then set to work and decide and fix upon the parts of the land to be made inalienable, such as farms, kaingas, and so forth, and to select and set aside those lands which were intended to be leased or otherwise dealt with as not being required for the occupation of the Maoris. All these amendments which I have mentioned were made by the Papawai meeting to sections 7tolo of the Bill. The Board would also appoint block committees to assist it in its work. I think, if the amendments I have suggested were embodied in the Bill, the Bill would come quickly into operation and be taken advantage of in all these districts. I will now explain the duty which the block committee would have to undertake. That, committee would have to give its consent to the block being handed over to the Board, its consent being taken as the consent of all the people who owned the block. I explained the duties of the block committee in reference to the management of the land yesterday. If these suggestions which I have made were given effect to the Natives would not be afraid to have their lands brought under the operation of this Bill. They would have confidence, and would know that they were working together for their mutual benefit. With regard to clauses 13 and 14, we are not clear as to how we may be effected by those clauses. All we can see is that the lands would be vested in the Board in "fee-simple," which words the House interpreters have not translated. We have tried to understand this, and we now ask, Does it mean that the land should be absolutely vested in the Board ? Another thing we have noticed is that old titles would be called in and cancelled, and new titles issued. If that means that the land is to absolutely vest in the Board, I would ask the Committee to reconsider that point, and not to divest the Maoris of their fee-simple in the land. Of course, it is reasonable that the Board should have some title, but let it be more in the form of a title conferred on it for purposes of administration of the land for the benefit of the Maoris, or something of that kind. We have been deliberating and talking over this because we do not quite understand what that means. 716. Mr. Wi Pere.] Is it your fear that if the titles were handed over to the Board the Board would keep them altogether, and do as they liked with them?— Well, we are not very clear about it, and some people have suspicions of that kind ; not that we have had any actual experience of the matters I have pointed out, because the Bill has not yet passed and come into operation. I merely mention the matter to show that some doubt is entertained with regard to that provision in the Bill. We think that after the Board has once carried out and completed its duties with respect to leasing and settling the land there would be no longer any necessity for the Board to continue, and the Commissioner of Crown Lands could continue to administer the leases, and manage them. The other members of the Board might cease to exist, as it would only be incurring unnecessary expense. Hon. Mr. Carroll: He means that after the Board has dealt with the land, and leased it, and promoted settlement, then the Board should pass out of existence, and the further continuance of these leases and the administration of the land should remain solely with the Commissioner of Crown Lands and the Native owners. It means, practically, that the Board is necessary to give titles, and to lease, and after that is done to adjourn, and leave the subsequent administration to the Commissioner. Mr. Monk : Then, the Commissioner is in the position of a trustee. Witness : That we consider a good provision, as it would save continual expense year after year. 717. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Are not the alterations necessary to give effect to the suggestions you are making contained in the amended copy of the Bill which you have handed in ?—Yes. I may state to the Committee that all our amendments are contained in the copy of the Bill as amended by the meeting at Papawai. It will save the time of the Committee. I have said something with regard to the polling for the election of members of the Board. Provisions with regard to

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polling are contained in sections 12 and 46 of the amended Bill. We think that the carrying-out of the polling under the provisions contained in those sections will involve a great deal of expense. You will find amendments in regard to this matter in sections 39 and 40 of the Papawai Bill. 718. You mean that this amendment does not alter the principle, but that you want to reduce the working-expenses?— Yes. We say that a good deal of expense would be incurred under the clauses of the Government Bill, and we want to lessen that expense. As all our amendments are contained in the Papawai Bill, there is no necessity for me to say anything more about them. All I ask of the Committee is that when they come to consider the Bill they will take our amendments into consideration, and try and embody as many of them as possible in the Bill. I wish now to learn from the Committee whether they will be able to finish with this Bill so that it can be passed into law this session. If that cannot be done, then I would ask for the introduction of a short Bill to this effect: To reserve all the balance of the Native land at onee —that is, to cease the operations of sale and purchase at once. I should like the Bill to contain another clause, to the effect that the Government turn its attention to completing all purchases and winding them up. In saying that I mean that they should wind up and define the portions purchased, so that the Maoris may know exactly the parts remaining to them throughout the Island. Then, Parliament in the coming session would know exactly what lands were left to the Maoris. When I say to define the portions purchased I mean those parts or shares in blocks which are absolutely purchased now. The land under mortgage and negotiation should be dealt with in a different way; but I would ask Parliament to protect such lands, so as not to allow them to be seized for debt. This short Bill that I refer to might include a clause giving certain powers to the Board to assist the Court, so that the Court could get through its work of defining and cutting off these purchases quickly. With regard to the application made by the opponents of this Bill—namely, that it should be adjourned until the Native meeting at Waitangi takes place—l think the granting of that request would be a waste of time. The meeting at Waitangi would not be able to effect anything; that meeting has not been called to consider this Bill. The meeting has been called for the purpose of opening a house and for weeping over certain dead. The wish to refer the Bill to that meeting has emanated from the opponents in Wellington, who have tried to make the Bill the cause for the meeting. There are no grounds why the Committee should grant their request. The large meeting held at Papawai was one assembled there of Natives from all parts of the Island with the special object of considering this Bill at the suggestion of the Government, and it held its sittings with the approval of the Government, as is shown by the fact that the Government provided half the fares on the railway, and in other ways assisted the Natives in attending the meeting, and appointed a doctor to look after the sick there. The Premier and the Governor attended the meeting there, and made speeches with regard to this Bill. This application to adjourn the matter until the meeting at Waitangi is only a waste of time. There are a great many points in the arguments of the objectors to the Bill to which I could reply, but I think it would be only wasting the time of the Committee. There are about ten thousand people in support of what the objectors say in regard to the Bill, but their objection to the Bill arises from a different cause altogether. They are supporting the movement for the Native Council —the King movement. They are supporting home rule, and these two parties have joined together in their efforts to oppose this Bill; but I would say this much : that if this Bill is passed into law all those very tribes who are objecting to it would, I am sure, bring their lands under it. A good deal has been said in this Committee about Mr. Henare Kaihau's Bill. I have but one reply to make to that, and it is that the district from which I come would not consent to that Bill being made to apply to our side of the Island, because we see in that Bill a policy of opposition to the Government of the colony. I would suggest that the way to meet the wishes of the King party would be to appoint a special Board somewhat different from the Boards on the Bast Coast, acting under the King, and so meet their wishes. With regard to the statement that the three thousand Natives who have petitioned in favour of the Bill are ignorant and landless, we laugh at that statement. On the contrary, many of those who have signed the petition in support of the Bill possess large areas of land, and we can say this : that none of those ten thousand who have signed the petition against the Bill have ever made over as a free gift any of their land to any of those three thousand who have signed the petition in favour of the Bill. All I can say with regard to the people who made such a statement as that is that they are porangi ; they do not belong to New Zealand, or otherwise they would know better. I heard that they got their ideas from a pakeha, and that a pakeha drafted their petition. With regard to the statements made against the Judges and Assessors of the Native Land Court, I was very grieved to hear the statements, and that they were charged with accepting bribes, and so on. Those were very wrong statements to make. I was for four years acting as an Assessor, and I was never bribed or corrupted. I object to these kind of statements being made. I can mention a large number of good and upright Assessors in the colony. For four years, as I say, I was acting as an Assessor, and none of the cases which I heard during that time were appealed against or reheard. The cases were very numerous, and not one of them was appealed against or reheard. The reason why I left off acting as an Assessor was that the pay was so small. The Judges were paid a good salary, but the Assessors were paid a mere nothing. That is why the best men gave up acting as Assessors. So again I enter my protest against the statement made by the objectors to the Bill with regard to the Assessors of the Native Land Court. A great many of the tribes on the West Coast support this Bill. For instance, the Natives of Inland Patea support it, and the Natives of Upper Wanganui also support it. They all wish the Bill to pass and to become law, and it is only owing to the energy displayed by the opposers of the Bill that they got some of these people to join in their petition. I wish to bring my statement to a conclusion now. I would ask the Committee to look carefully into the amendments made by the Native meeting at Papawai, and I would ask the Committee to pass those parts of the amendments which they think ought to be passed. We have no fear as to the result if the Bill is passed. We leave the matter with entire confidence in the hands of the House and the Government, because by-and-by, if it is

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found that some parts of the Bill are inoperative and should be amended, we have no doubt the necessary amendments will be made. The amendments which we have made are not to be looked upon as opposing the Bill, but simply as suggestions, which we hope, if adopted, will improve the Bill. I wish the members of the Committee long life and prosperity. I have done. 719. Captain Bussell.] I understood you to say that you approved of the Premier's Bill; is that so?— Yes; but I would ask the Committee to amend certain parts of it. 720. If the Bill should pass with a majority of the Board composed of Europeans would you still wish it to pass ?—Yes; I would still support the Bill. If it were passed as it is now it would be on trial, and the future would show whether the proposed composition of the Board was good or not. If we found it did not answer, then in due course the Government and Parliament would hear our objections to the constitution of the Board. 721. You would sooner have the Bill with a majority of Europeans on it than not have the Bill at all ?—Yes ; I would prefer that, because there are so many things affecting the Maori people which want attention under the Bill now. 722. If the amendments which you suggest were put in, and the Board ceases to exist after it has done some work, what Court of Appeal would you have if the Board had committed errors and done an injustice ? —I would refer those matters to the Board. The duties of the Board would only cease with regard to leasing the land and dealing with it otherwise, but we should still have the Board to hear cases of appeal. 723. But you must have some different Board to the one which has committed the blunder?'— The committee would be the Court to hear and settle cases, and the appeal from their work would be to the Board. The Board would be the Court of Appeal. Any appeal from the Board's decisions, I would suggest, should be referred to a body of men in the same way that Europeans set up arbitrators in some cases. It could be settled in that way somehow.--724. And these arbitrators would have final power?— Yes. There would be no necessity for the people to petition the House. 725. I understood you to say that you opposed Kaihau's Bill because it was opposed to the Government of the colony ? —Yes. 726. In what does his Bill differ from your own proposals?— Mr. Kaihau's Bill proposes that all the Native lands in the colony should come under the mana of the Council of the King. The Maori King would be its head. 727. Do you not propose that the Maoris should be the head of the Board constituted under this Bill?—No; my suggestion is not that. We propose that the Commissioner of Crown Lands shall be the head of the Board. 728. But he is only one of five ?—Yes, that is so. 729. Does not Mr. Kaihau's Bill give power to the Natives in parts of the country besides the Waikato; is it not very much the same Bill?— What I mean to say is this: that I object to the mana of that Bill being imposed upon my district. 730. Quite so; but I want to know what is the difference between your proposal and that of Mr. Kaihau ?—There is another difference in Mr. Kaihau's Bill, it refers to rates and taxes being paid over to the Maori Council. In that we consider that we, the Maori people, would suffer, inasmuch as we should have to pay two rates, one to the Maori King and Council and the other to the Government. 731. The ascertainment of titles and management of the lands would be the same as under your Bill ?—I do not think they are quite the same, inasmuch as in Mr. Kaihau's Bill all the surveys and matters of that kind are to be administered by the Maori Council, and it is not so under this Bill. 732. You deplored the influence of drink on the Maoris ; has not that diminished very much of late years ?—ln certain districts it is diminishing at times. At other times it seems to increase again ; it varies. 733. Is it not better generally than it was twenty years ago ?— It is not so bad as it was twenty years ago. At that time the people sold more land and had more money to spend. They do not sell so much land now, and have not so much money to spend. 734. Is it not the spread of civilisation which has tended to check drink ?—Yes, that is so ; and also the Church missions and the children being sent to school. They have all had a beneficial effect. 735. You also deplored the tangis, and the waste of food and consumption of drink that went on at them ?—Yes. 736. Would not that be more likely to go on under the management of Boards than if each man had the management of his own property ? —I do not think that putting the lands under the management of a Board would affect the question of their wasting their money and squandering their property. 737. Would there not be less likelihood of wasting money at tangis and that sort of thing if each man managed his own property than if it were managed for him by a Board?— The best way to suppress that kind of thing would be the appointment of the sub-committees of which I have spoken. 738. That does not answer my question ?—My reply to that is that there should be a special committee set up to attend to those kind of things—to control the expenditure of money, and so on. With regard to the other portion of the question, as to the subdivision of land, I say that would answer very well in suitable localities. 739. I have not got to that point yet. I ask you now, if you had your own land and nobody could interfere with you, could you be compelled to waste your money at tangis, and if the land was in the hands of a Board could not the Board make you do so ?—lt is a very difficult question to answer. Supposing the Board had the management of my land and had possession of the money and so on, the Board would hold the money and I would not have any to squander, but I would still continue under my Maori customs.

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740. You will not answer my question. I ask you, if you were the sole owner of your land, would you not be less likely to spend your money than if other people spent it for you ?—I would be only able to save my money and not squander it if the Maori customs were stamped out. Hon. Mr. Carroll: Ido not think the question has been put clearly. Pardon me, Captain Eussell, if I put it in another way. You wish to ask the witness, if he had his land all to himself in fee-simple, would he not spend less money in tangis than if the Board was spending it for him —that is, assuming that the Board would spend it in tangis. Captain Bussell: I want to break down the Maori customs, and I asked him whether he would not spend less money if he had the management of his own land than if the Board managed it for him. Mr. Wi Pere : Supposing he had any land separated—cut off and individualised —it would not better his condition. He would still squander his money because of the Maori customs. 741. Captain Bussell.] If each individual owned his own land and managed it himself would not Maori customs and squanderings diminish ?—I do not think they would cease until the Maoris became civilised like the Europeans. When all the chiefs and people have become kuares like the pakehas it may cease. 742. Would not giving a man his own individual rights in his land tend to civilise him ?—Yes, that is so ; but Maori customs and usages will not die out. 743. You cannot answer the question?—l said yes. 744. Then, you told us you brought up your own children ? —Yes. 745. Did you consult the Maori committee how to do it ?—I was educated at a school myself in my youth. 746. Did the Maori committee send you to school ?—No ; my parents sent me. 747. And you sent your own children to school ?—Yes ; I sent my children to school myself; but when the committees were instituted I became a member of the committee myself. 748. Did the committee assist you to send your children to school?— No. 749. They did not find you either money or advice?— There was no committee such as I suggest in those days—a committee to control and manage the children attending school. 750. Do you think if you had taken the advice of a committee you could have done better for them ? —I could not answer that question. 751. What is your answer? —My answer was that there was no committee in those days, and I sent my children to school myself. The boy whom I sent to school, and who passed so successfully, was sent entirely with my own funds, and no one assisted me. 752. You told us that the education given to Maori children was wasted on account of their returning to unsatisfactory surroundings ?—Yes. 753. Ought we not to try to break down those surroundings ?—I suggest the appointment of a committee. The committee would control all these matters, and suppress these customs and keep them in check. I approve of the land being subdivided. 754. But then if you are allowed to still manage your own family and your own land would you not be more likely to put down improper habits than if you were liable to the control of some one else? —Yes; I think so. 755. Then, ought not legislation to go in the direction of giving each man his own right to manage his own affairs rather than to give that management over to half a dozen other persons who are not interested ? —Yes, that is so ; but it is impracticable. For instance, there is a block of land of 1,000 acres, and there are a hundred owners in it. I would cut that up into a hundred pieces. Then, there would be the cost of survey and the expenses of adjudication, and appeals, and other things. Then the land would be subdivided, and the subdivision would be completed, and all the expenses to enable this to be carried out would be a charge on the land. Perhaps it would amount to half or more than half the value of the land; but where a block is much larger and the number of owners is comparatively few what you propose might be practicable. 756. Is the Maori to go on for ever like a child in leading-strings?—l would suggest that in blocks of the character I describe, where there are many people, the blocks should be divided into hapu holdings. 757. Do you not think that the day will ever come when the Native can be like the European? —The first thing to do would be to eradicate the Maori customs. As it is now, the customs of the two races are going on together in contention with each other. The Europeans do not understand things in the same way that Maoris do. The Maori customs are the life of the Maori. From our way of looking at it, of course, the Maori would not like to give his food and his cattle away for nothing, but when the Maori custom seizes him he throws them away. 758. That is not an answer to my question. I want to know whether you look forward to the day when the Native shall be like the European ?—That is my hope ; but I would have it done gradually. 759. Then, you think you are not now fit to be intrusted with the management of your own property? —The Maori is able to look after himself, but he is overriden by Maori customs. It is that which prevents him from getting on. 760. Then, ought we not to break these Maori customs down ? —Yes; but as the first step to killing the Maori customs I still adhere to the appointment of the committee. 761. Then, you think that by managing your own property you would go to ruin, but if it is managed by a committee you will be made prosperous ? —I again say that blocks of land where there are a large number of owners, and which it is impracticable to subdivide, should be handed over to the committee ; on the other hand, lands that are individualised, the individual owners could manage such land themselves.

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Thursday, 20th Octobeb, 1898. Mr. Pabatenb Ngata in attendance : examination continued. 762. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Is it the general desire of a majority of the Natives of New Zealand that land-selling should stop ?—Yes. 763. Both by the Government and by private individuals ?—Yes. 764. Did the meeting at Papawai unanimously agree to that ?—-Yes ; but a certain section of the people there present claimed to exercise distinct Maori rights, and another section claimed to be allowed to constitute a Maori Council. However, the general wish, as I understood the speeches and addresses there made, was that the balance of the land remaining in Native ownership should be reserved to them, and that sales should stop. 765. And that formed the principal point in their congratulatory address to Her Majesty ?—■ Yes. 766. In speaking of the stopping of land sales did they consider any exemptions; did they consider what exceptions should be made to the general principle of non-selling; were they prepared under certain exceptional circumstances to allow land-selling to be permitted ?—No; no such suggestion as that was made there. The people were unanimous in the one request that the sales should be absolutely put a stop to. Certainly this exception was made: that in case of lands which could not be leased or dealt with in some satisfactory manner the people owning those lands should have a right to say what might be done with them. 767. When it was the general desire of the Natives that land-selling should be stopped, did they also consider that it was absolutely necessary to have some sort of legislation for the individualisation of their lands by themselves ?—Yes. 768. I presume the result of these efforts on the part of the Natives to decide upon some system of administration of their lands is to be found in the Bill as amended by the meeting at Papawai ?—That is so. 769. I understood from you that it was at that stage of the proceedings that there was any breaking away of a particular section of the hui representing the hapus in different parts of the colony ?—Yes. 770. That is to say, those in favour of Mr. Kaihau's Bill worked together on those lines and those in favour of home rule separated themselves, leaving only the advocates of the Government Bill as amended by themselves to keep together in support of the Bill?— Yes. 771. Then, that is the position up to the present, so far as the Natives are concerned'?— That is so. 772. You were questioned yesterday as to the relative merits of the two systems of individualisation and the Maoris holding their lands in fee-simple like Europeans, or Maoris associating together under some joint form of administration of their estates ?—Yes. 773. Could you tell the Committee the advantages or disadvantages of either system ?—Yes, I can do so. In respect to individualisation of interests it would be very satisfactory, in cases where Native lands were workable and of sufficient areas, to make each man's interest sufficiently valuable to be worked ; but some blocks of land have many owners, and the lands are of limited area. In those cases it would not be satisfactory to individualise the interests in the blocks, for this reason : that the individual area would be too small, and the cost of subdividing and surveying would be so great that it would be simply useless to do it; but I think that in the case of blocks of land which are in the position I have just described a satisfactory way of dealing with them would be to constitute bodies, to be called block committees, to administer the land on behalf of the owners. 774. For the convenience of examination we will say that the lands described by you come under two different heads, which may be called Class 1 and Class 2. Class 1 would be those lands of first-rate quality in progressive districts, and held in limited areas by the owners. Those are the lands which you say it would be advisable to have partitioned and individualised ?—Yes. Of course, good land might be subdivided. The greatest item of expense is the survey, but the Natives are desirous that their valuable good lands should be individualised. 775. Let us, for instance, take the lands in Hawke's Bay. Take the lands in the plain of the Wairarapa; take the lands at Wanganui, and whatever areas there may be in those districts in the possession of the Natives : would you describe those as first-class land, and put them into Class 1 ? —Yes. 776. Then, take the next grade of lands—we will say held in large areas of hilly country, and bush land, and fern land, as the case may be, with a large number of owners in each block, but being capable of being leased in fairly sized areas : would you be willing in the meantime to class those lands as Class 2 ?—Yes. 777. Then, there is the inferior sort of land, such as that on the Taupo Plains, some of the land in the Waikato, in the Arawa district and in the Ngapuhi district I presume, lands which would be of no use to the Maoris for occupation, and which could only be leased or alienated in large areas; would you allow them to be called Class 3 ?—Yes; Glass 3or Class 4 they must be called. In fact, I myself own some land of that description —mountainous, rugged country. 778. I think you wish the Committee to understand that individualisation —that is to say, cutting off each man's share in the block and giving it to him in fee-simple—would only be practically possible and of advantage to the owner of such lands as come under Class 1 ?—Yes. 779. Do you know whether there are large areas of Class 1 land held by the Natives in the colony at the present day ?—No. I know that there is a little only. I know that there is a comparatively small balance of Class 1 land remaining. I have seen the whole of the Heretaunga lands, and the Wairarapa lands, and the Manawatu lands, and the Wanganui lands, and I know there is only a small balance of those lands remaining. 780. I suppose that was the class of land which first suffered when the Maoris were allowed 9—l. 3a.

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free-trade in the disposal of their lands ?—Yes. Of course, that was the description of land for* which the highest price was given when purchased by Europeans. 781. With regard to Class 1, you have no objection now to such lands being individualised?— No ; I have no objection. Of course, it is for the owners of each block of land of that description to say what they would wish. 782. But you are aware that in some cases, if not in all, it would be for the benefit of the owners ?—Yes. 783. Now we come to Class 2. The objection, I understand from you, to the principle of individualisation being carried out in respect to Class 2 arises from the fact that there are invariably a large number of owners in the blocks in that class, and to cut off each person's share for him would involve a heavy expense in surveys, and fees, and costs of every description ?—Yes. 784. I think you said you would object, unless the blocks, if defined, would amount to a large area, or sufficient to cover the expenses and costs of such individualisation ?—Yes; if there were only a comparatively few owners, and the individual interests, whefo divided, came to large areas, then it would be possible to do so. 785. Could you tell me whether the bulk of the land held by the Natives at the present day comprises Class 2 chiefly, or Classes 2, 3, and 4 ?—I should say that most of the land that is left is comprised in Classes 2 and 3, because, as regards Class 1, where there were few owners owning large areas, they have sold in almost every case. The balance of land remaining to them now is land in which there are many owners, some of whom have sold and some still retain their interest. Therefore the balance of the land still remaining to the original owners should come under Classes 2 and 3. 786. With your knowledge of Classes 2 and 3 of the Native lands throughout the colony, can you say, if they were cut up to-morrow and individualised, what would be the average quantity given to each owner ? —Well, I will speak of my -own particular district. Many blocks of land in my district have been individualised, and some persons have 10 acres in such blocks of land, others are only the owners of 1 acre ; others have more, perhaps, than 10 acres, while in other blocks of land again it takes three persons' interest to make up an acre. But, then, these persons are men who have interests in many blocks of land, like myself. They have interests in many blocks in the same locality, but none of those interests are of considerable extent. 787. Very well; we will take your own case. We will say that you have an interest in ten different blocks, and that the average area of your interest in each of these blocks is 10 acres. In the aggregate that would be 100 acres. How would the principal of individualisation apply beneficially in your case ? That is to say, if you were to cut off your interest in 10 acres in each of the ten blocks in the same locality, can you inform the Committee whether that would be beneficial, and how would you deal with those ten blocks so individualised ?—lt would not be beneficial to me, for this reason : First of all, there would be the cost of survey and the Court expenses, and it is reasonable to suppose that the Court might give an unsatisfactory decision. The Court might give me 10 acres on the side of a cliff instead of land which I could work. 1 might appeal, and then there would be further costs, and probably before the matter was settled the expenses would have swallowed up not only the original 100 acres, but another 100 acres in addition to that. 788. Then, supposing there was a block of, say, 5,000 acres in a particular district, and that there were four hundred or five hundred owners in that block, and that Europeans came into the district and were desirous of leasing holdings to the extent of 1,000 or 500 acres, as the case may be, and they applied to the owners, would those owners be better able to carry into effect any contract between themselves and the Europeans by first individualising their property or by acting as a corporate body under some such system as is suggested in this Bill, and dealing with the land in that way ?—Undoubtedly, the better course to pursue in a case such as you speak of would be to appoint some such body as is described, who should represent and act on behalf of all the owners, and negotiate with the Europeans who are desirous of leasing. With a view to settle the amount of rent that each owner is to receive it would be necessary to know the relative interest of each of the owners in the block, but the land should not be subdivided. 789. If I catch your meaning correctly, it is this : that in a case as instanced by me it would be far better for the Natives to act under the administrative body—call it what you like, Board or committee, or whatever you choose to call it— who would have power to give a title right off to the European, and that any individual interests which the several owners might have in the land, or in the proceeds of the land, should be assessed afterwards, without cutting up the land first, and saying, " So-and-so has so much, and So-and-so has so much"—that it should be done as in a joint-stock company ?—Yes ; the Board should administer all these matters. Let the committee appointed by the hapu deliberate with the Board, and advise it as to the owners' wishes. That seems to me to be the only way in which land of the description referred to can be beneficially worked. 790. If there were a Board or a committee set up by law to administer those 5,000 acres by lease to Europeans who may require the land, and to arrange terms and that sort of thing, how long do you think it would take to complete the title ?—Not long ; a very short time. 791. Gould it be done in a day or a week?— Well, the only thing that would take any time would be the deliberations among the Natives beforehand. As far as the deed to the European is concerned, its execution could be done in an hour. 792. Take it. on the other ground : Supposing the owners of that block individualised their interests in the 5,000 acres, and got a complete title for each owner before they leased to the Europeans, how long would it take to do that ? —lt might take ten years, and then not be completed. I speak from personal experience, and I can give you an instance. I negotiated the lease of a certain piece of land to Sir George Whitmore. There were eight blocks of land comprised within the lease, and these eight blocks were held by eight hundred owners. I was occupied during a period of three years in following the owners about in various parts of the Island and endeavouring to obtain

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their signatures to the lease. I only got about half of them, and the other half have not been got yet; that is to say, the other signatures were not got until recently, when a committee was set up, and the matter was arranged satisfactorily. 793. In that particular case they arrived at the conclusion that it was better to set up a local committee to take the whole matter in hand, and get the balance of the signatures to the transaction?— Yes. Another thing is this: that in the case of land where the obtaining of signatures is such an undertaking as that which I have described the European would only give a very small rent. He is obliged to take into consideration the expenses he would be put to in paying the people who are endeavouring to obtain the signatures of the owners of the land on his behalf. It took me on one occasion, together with a Justice of the Peace and an interpreter, a long time to obtain one signature. We had to go through Kennedy Bay to get that signature, and the actual expenses of travelling, and so on, came to over £50, and the amount of rent the man was to receive was 7s. 6d. a year. That is why transactions of that kind are unsatisfactory, and therefore it is necessary that some other system should be introduced. 794. A somewhat less expensive one? —Yes. 795. After all your experience in the Native Land Court as Assessor and agent in regard to alienation of Native land by way of lease or purchase, and as owner yourself in various blocks of land, do you consider that for the present, under existing conditions, some such system—-I do not say exactly the same, but on the same principle —as that proposed in the legislation of the Government is about the best possible just now ?—Yes. I would instance another block of land, named Waipiro. There are many owners in that block—say about five hundred. We subdivided out of that original block a portion that belonged to myself and my hapu, and we set up a committee. There were nine members of that committee, of whom I myself was one, and we drew up a deed constituting the committee. The land is now under lease, and all necessary actions in connection with that lease are carried out by us, the committee, on behalf of the owners, and everything that has to be done we do in an hour or so. We, the committee, receive the rent, and we disburse it amongst the owners in their proper proportions. I myself get merely my share of the rent, and we, the members of the committee, are not remunerated for our services. As to the proposal that the committee should act together with the Board in deciding the titles to land, I may say that the Waipiro Block contains 30,000 acres, and I with a committee, outside of the Court, went into the matter, and we made five subdivisions, and defined the relative interest of each owner in each of these five partitions. We did this outside of the Court. Having done so, we submitted our scheme to the Court, and all that the Court was called upon to do was simply to read out the partition names of the various owners and the shares which had been allotted to each by the committee which had been appointed outside the Court. The Court passed our scheme and gave effect to it ; and that has been the position of the block ever since, and there has been no appeal or any trouble whatever. 796. It has been under lease? —Yes. The committee arranged about the lease, and it has been leased ever since to Europeans, and there has been no trouble. That is what we want. We want a committee constituted to act together with the Board, and assist it in matters of that kind, the Board to give effect to the recommendations of the committee. 797. You said in regard to the Waipiro Block that the owners by deed vested all their interests in that block in a committee, which committee, acting on behalf of the said owners, leased the land upon terms agreed upon, and that everything was carried out on satisfactory lines ?—Yes. 798. Is that the principle which the Maoris desire at the present time to have carried out by legislation ?—Yes. 799. That would save them the cost of getting signatures and preparing deeds, and all the other formalities necessary in the execution of deeds ?—Yes. 800. From what I understand of your idea it is this : that the management and administration of the blocks in a district should be carried out by a committee formed of the owners of such block ? —Yes. 801. And they are to arrange the terms of lease, and so forth ? —Yes. 802. And that the assistance of a general Board is merely necessary to give confirmation to all such dealings between Native owners of land and Europeans, or whatever it may be ?—Yes. 803. And it is to be a sort of Board to which the committees can appeal for monetary assistance, and the Board will have authority to assist in that way in cases where the Natives are desirous of improving their own lands and working them for their own benefit ?—Yes. 804. Or to advance moneys and to assist them in paying the cost of surveys where they are cutting up land for leasing purposes ? —Yes. 805. Then, to sum up, you are not averse to individualise lands in Class 1 where the quality is such and the areas of land held by owners of such a size that they can be profitably worked ?— No ; I am not averse to that. 806. But that in Classes 2 and 3, which is the balance of the land, owing to the nature of the country, and the number of the owners, and the heavy cost attendant upon individualism, your idea is that the best system would be some plan of incorporation under some form of committee for the better administration of those lands ?—Yes. 807. Now, we do not want to bring into conflict the rival systems which now exist in the Native mind as to the relative merits of the home-rule principle or the special authority proposed to be given under Kaihau's Bill or the Government proposition, but in your opinion, as you have already stated, some such system as that which is proposed in the Government Bill is absolutely necessary if you wish to utilise the balance of the Native lands and carry into effect the general desire that there should be no more land-selling?— Yes. 808. Would you be willing, if the Natives in the Island are not unanimous at present in accepting this Bill—would you be willing, on behalf of the part of the country to which you belong, and of the Native tribes whom you represent, that a measure of this kind should be brought into

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force in your district ? —Yes. That is why I have been here so long waiting for an opportunity to support this Bill, and intending to make just such a request as that which is contained in the question—namely, that if it is the wish of the Natives in other parts of the Island that the Bill should not be brought into force in their districts, I shall still claim to be allowed to request that it may be brought into operation in my district—that is to say, that it should operate on lands in my district, and settle those lands, and also in regard to the lands on the West Coast of the people who are desirous that the Bill should be brought into operation there. 809. Then, you are quite willing that you should form a test before forcing such a measure upon other tribes who are not willing to accept it ?—Yes. 810. Speaking for your own district, can you think of any other system better than this to be applied to that district ? You are an intelligent man and you have thought this matter out, and you have had experience in the working of all the different laws passed by Parliament in regard to the alienation of Native lands, and I presume you are in a position to give your mind to the Committee on this subject ?—No. I have used my best intelligence considering over this matter, and in searching and studying the thing over thoroughly from the date of the first arrival of Europeans into this country. lam satisfied that no other scheme could be proposed which is likely to act in such a satisfactory manner as the present scheme. Of course, I may say this : that I consider it would be advisable that step by step the Maoris should endeavour, as far as they may, to follow in the footsteps of the Europeans, and adopt their customs. 811. You do not consider that the present time is sufficiently ripe for the Natives to "toe the line " with the Europeans in regard to their lands ? —No ; not yet. 812. You think the Maori has not yet evolved to that stage ?—I think not. I would, however, say this : I think there are some Natives who are qualified to claim to be in the same position as Europeans ; but then, again, there are others who are not, and therefore I may say generally that the Maoris are not yet ripe to take such a stand as that. 813. I understand from you that you hope that the Maoris will step by step grow to that desired goal?— Yes ; that is my hope. 814. The Chairman.] Without the Europeans' vices, I suppose?— Yes, of course—their virtues and not their vices. I may say that I should like to see the European vices thrown entirely on one side, for they are what is really destroying the Maori people. Lawyers also I should utterly debar from taking any part in matters affecting the Maoris. 815. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Well, while the Maoris are going through the transition stage you think that it is absolutely necessary that at the present moment their lands should be utilised in the best possible way ?—Yes; that some such legislation should be passed as would insure that the balance of the lands which remain to the Maoris should be used for their benefit until such time as they shall have reached the status of Europeans. 816. Then, when they become exactly like Europeans in other respects you are willing that they should hold their lands as Europeans hold theirs ? —Yes ; I am willing that that should be the case. 817. There were one or two questions put to you yesterday with regard to which I should like to ask you something. You said that the Maoris were becoming more sober people than they used to be ?—Yes; generally speaking there is less insobriety amongst the Maori people than there used to be; but, of course, occasionally there is a break-out. 818. Is there not a change for the better in that respect ?—I think the reason for the falling-off in drunkenness is that they have sold most of their lands, and there is no money now to spend in that direction. 819. But it is not only that ?—I think they are beginning to realise that it is not a practice which should be followed. The Maoris have in various places framed regulations prohibiting intoxicated persons from entering their kaingas, and they summon people who break this rule. 820. That is very important evidence as showing that the Natives themselves throughout the colony are making efforts to decrease intoxication amongst themselves ?—Yes. 821. Have they not committees set up in different places who have power to agree amongst themselves to impose nominal fines on any drunken person ?—Yes ; and if the person who has been fined by the committee refuses to pay the fine he is summoned before the Magistrate's Court and a fine is inflicted on him there. I could cite many instances of that being done in my district, where the practice has been in force. 822. Do not the Native committees even in social questions do a lot of good in improving the condition of the Maoris ? —Yes. 823. Is it not a rule now, where large meetings are held in different parts of the country, that temperance is strongly advocated by the representative chiefs?— Yes; drink is not permitted. Even if a European comes there under the influence of liquor he is denied admission. I have seen many Europeans taken hold of and turned out. At the Papawai meeting several Europeans were so treated. 824. At that large meeting ?—Yes. Until the Premier and the Governor went up there no liquor was permitted at all. Then there was a dinner given in honour of the occasion, and there was liquor at the dinner, but only for an hour. 825. You are a man who has brought his children up well, and given them a good education? —Yes. 826. And you did so outside of any revenue that you received from your land ? —Yes. There was no revenue accruing from my lands. I had not sold them, and I myself had to work the lands and cultivate them. 827. Even if you had individualised your lands, would they have been of any material help to you in the education of your children ?—No. 828. It was only the strength of purpose in yourself that they should be educated which is responsible for their being so educated? —Yes.

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829. Supposing when your children came back from school, and you had your interests individualised—and, as you told us, it was an average of about 10 acres in each block in different localities—would that have been a temptation to you to place your children on that land to farm and so earn a livelihood for themselves?—No; because the lands, as I have said, are scattered about in different places. If all the interests had been in one block it would have been possible to start them farming on different little farms. 830. Is not this the great evil in connection with the education of your children : that after they are educated and return to their parents there is no opportunity for them to advance themselves— there is no land to settle them on ?—Yes. 831. They have no trade or profession to look to as a help in the struggle of life ? —No. 832. Would you not be in favour of some provision being made out of the balance of the lands which are left to the Maoris —that a certain percentage of those lands should be set apart for the rising generation ?—Yes ; that is what we want to do. Under this Bill we hope so to arrange matters that the land necessary for our support and keeping, and for our children with us, shall be reserved to us absolutely inalienably, and that the balance of the land which is not immediately required for the support of ourselves and children who come after us shall be leased, but not to pass away absolutely from us, and as these leases fall in, if it is then considered requisite and necessary, that the lands should be used by our children for their own benefit. If it should transpire at some future time that the lands set apart for a particular tribe have ceased to be sufficient for their support and keep, then, as these leases fall in, the owners can make use of them. 833. Then, you are in favour of a certain portion of the lands being set apart for education purposes ? —Yes. 834. To help in the establishment of technical schools for the better instruction of the children ?—Yes. 835. And that wherever the land was suitable they should be taught the science of agriculture, and farming, and so forth ?—Yes. 836. Could that be more effectually brought about and carried on under a system of individualisation of interests than by some general system of administration under a trihal committee, who would set apart a certain percentage of the land for this purpose ?—lt would be better managed by a committee. 837. And let each tribe cut off its education reserves ?—Yes. 838. With improvements as the committee may see fit ? I understood you to say that you are under no apprehension that any disaster will result, but rather the reverse, if the principles of this Bill were brought into operation in your district ?—Nothing but good could come of it. My people, I am sure, would be delighted, and welcome the Bill. 839. Mr. Kaihau.] What about the Bill as it now stands without the amendments ? 840. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] What you said to me, I think, was that, subject to any amendments which the committee might make in the Bill, so long as the principle was maintained, you would have no fear through its being brought into operation in your district, and that nothing but good would result therefrom ?—I anticipate no evils, unless, of course, the Act was worded in such a way as to enable people to twist words about (as I know lawyers do) in a way contrary to the spirit and intention of the Act. Then evils might be possible. Unfortunately, I have known many cases in which Acts were passed with a view of obtaining a certain end, and apparently that end had been obtained by the Act, but when the Act was put into operation it turned out that it had fallen short in some particulars. I believe that all laws which are passed by this House are passed with an honest intention of attaining the end for which they were introduced, and that intention is not transformed until the Acts come into operation, when it is found that it is left open to people to administer them in some other way than was originally intended. The lawyers are continually construing Acts and wording them in such a way that they are found not to carry out what was originally intended, and then the House passes an amending Act with a view to correct the error which has crept in. 841. Just to sum up, I will ask you these questions. You and your party are at one with the bulk of the Natives that the lands now owned by the Maoris in New Zealand should be conserved for them? —Yes. 842. That those lands should be first" applied to your own use and benefit and for educational purposes on behalf of your children ? —Yes. 843. That the balance over and above what is required for these purposes should be leased ?— Yes. 844. Under the administration of a constituted body called a committee?— Yes. 845. Under authority of a Board ?—Yes. 846. That in cases where the land is of superior quality and the individuals' interests are above the average in area the principle of individualisation should be enforced? —Yes. 847. And that in such cases each owner could do as he likes with his property ?—Yes. I may say that in my own particular district there is no such land. 848. But in other districts there is such land?— Yes. 849. Mr. Wi Pere.] As this session is drawing to a close, I would ask you what particular provisions in this Bill is it that you wish to see passed this session ?—lf time is so short that it is not possible that this Bill should come down from the Committee to the House and be passed into law this session, then I shall ask what I asked yesterday —that is, that this Committee shall frame a short Bill and submit it to the House, to be passed this session, providing for the making of reserves of the description already specified, and also calling upon the Government to complete as speedily as possible the purchase of the lands which they have partially purchased, so that the Maoris may know as soon as may be what is the balance of land remaining to them ; that the lands which are mortgaged or in a tight place shall have provision made that the proceedings should be stopped —•

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that is to say, that some such provision should be made as would prevent these lands passing away completely from the Natives until these other arrangements have come into force. I should also have a clause inserted in the Bill empowering the constitution of a Board, the function of which Board would be to co-operate with and assist the Native Land Court in the ascertainment of Native titles —that is, in the matter of the partition of the lands which have been partly purchased by the Crown or other people, and so forth. 850. Then, your idea is that, in the event of time being short, it would be better to pass some such Bill as you have outlined, and that the general Bill should be held over until next session ?—■ Yes ; that is what I would wish—that if it is too near the end of the session for this Bill to be passed we should ask that some such short measure as I have endeavoured to outline should be passed. All the power I ask for the Board now is to enable it to sit with the Native Land Court and assist in the matters of partition and so forth, and that the rest of the mana and authority to be conferred upon this Board should be embodied in an Act to be passed next session of Parliament. 851. Would it not be advisable to pass a short Act this session empowering the constitution of a Board in each district ? —Yes ; that would be quite satisfactory, and then by the time the other Act is passed the committees would be constituted, and there would be less work to do, as they would act with the Board as a Court in the ascertainment of titles. Of course, I would like to see this Bill passed; but if time is too short for that I should like to see something of the sort I have described substituted in its place for the present. 852. You say you would like to see the Native lands reserved: would you be in favour of a definite limit in time being put on that reservation? —No. The reservation I would'desire is a reservation for all time—that is, an absolute reservation for all time, until the Maoris disappear as a people. 853. You know what the Premier's Bill says: how would you propose that an individual or hapu should bring their lands under the administration of the Board ?—lt should be done either by a general meeting of the people, or else it should be done by a committee appointed by and acting on behalf of the owners of the land. That is provided for in the new clauses and amendments drawn up by the meeting at Papawai. 854. I understand that what you object to is that the Board should have the right to seize and administer the Native lands whether it was the desire of the owners or not that they should do so? —Yes. If the Board were given such a power as that, even though the power was embodied in the best possible measure, the mere fact that the Board had power to seize their lands in that way would make the Natives most strenuously oppose it. 855. You have already given an answer to the question lam going to ask you, but still I am going to put it to you again : Supposing this Bill, with such amendments as you desire, is passed, do you want it to operate over one portion of the Bast Coast lands, or should it operate over the whole of the East Coast lands ?—I should like to see it brought into operation over the whole of the Island ; but if other tribes are not willing to accept it, then I, at any rate, would like to see it brought in in my district, and also in the districts of such West Coast tribes as are in favour of it. Let us try it, and then the outside tribes will be able to watch the course of proceedings, and then they can form their own opinion as to whether it is operating desirably in our district or whether it is injuring us. Then they can make their minds up as to whether they will have it brought into operation in their districts. But, even if all the other tribes in the Island are opposed to the Bill, I shall still ask that it shall be brought in in my district. We are a numerous people there, and we own a large area of country, and that would be sufficient to prove the merits or demerits of the Bill. 856. Shortly speaking, I understand you to mean that you wish the Board constituted, the committees constituted, and the block committees constituted, and you wish them to operate in conjunction with the Board?— Yes. That is all provided for in the amendments. 857. But you are not willing that the Board should have the absolute right to seize the land and to administer it according to its own sweet will without consulting the Maori owners in any way?— No. 858. Then, I understand you to say that the Board must not act contrary to the wishes of the committee, who are to say what parts of the land are to be reserved, and what sold, and what leased, and what made into farms, and so on? —Yes. 859. You wish the Board merely to act in accordance with the expressed wishes of the block committee ?—Yes. If that is done there will be no trouble, and everything will go on satisfactorily. 860. And the block committee is only to advise what has been agreed upon by the people who own the block ?—Yes. If the Board does not agree to what the committee proposes, and acts in a contrary direction, trouble must arise. 861. If the Bill is brought into operation in only one part of the Bast Coast to prove its merits, what then ?—I am quite willing that it should be so tried, even if it is only brought into operation on my own lands.

Peiday, 21st October, 1898. Mr. Pabatene Ngata in attendance: examination continued. 862. Mr. Kaihau.] You have given your views upon the main principles of the Premier's Bill which is now before the Committee ?—Yes. 863. Are you of opinion that the Bill meets the views of all the tribes in New Zealand, who wish to see a new state of things established with reference to themselves and their lands ?— Partly ; that is, in so far as it provides that all the balance of the Native lands shall be reserved. That is one part of the Bill which falls in with the general wish of the Maori people. There are other wishes which are held by various sections of the Maori people, who ask for absolute right, home rule, and other things with which the Bill does not agree.

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864. What part of this Bill is it which does not fall in with the wishes of the Maori people?— Many parts, because this is a new Bill which has just been introduced with regard to the Maori people and Maori matters. Parts of the Bill would be satisfactory now, and if the Bill were brought into operation it would be proved where it was satisfactory and where it was unsatisfactory. 865. I think I understood you to say that that part of the Bill which met the views of the Maori people was the part which provides that all land sales shall be absolutely stopped ?—Yes. Another desire of the Maori people is that means should be provided whereby they may lease their lands, and that is provided for in the Bill. 866. Do I understand you to mean that, with the exception of the part of the Bill which provides for the absolute stoppage of sales, it is not in accord with the wishes of the Maori people ?— Yes; but, as I said before, this is the first time that a Bill of this sort has been framed with reference to Maori matters. If the Bill were once passed and put into operation, then it might be found that it did give effect to the wishes of the Maori people. 867. I ask you the question so as to get you to say definitely to the Committee that the only part or parts of this Bill which meet with the wishes of the Maori people are those which provide that all sales should be absolutely stopped and means be found by which the Maoris can lease their lands. I understand you to answer in the affirmative to that question. You know that the common desire of the Maori people all over the Island is, first of all, to put a stop to all sales, and, secondly, to provide means whereby they may lease their lands ?—That is so. Probably you did not hear the evidence which I gave on the first and second day that I was before the Committee. I then spoke about all these matters, and about the amendments which were agreed to by the hui at Papawai. 868. I am not going back to what you may have said before. I only want replies to my questions now ?—Well, you asked me what was the general wish of the Maoris with respect to this Bill, and I have told you. 869. Very well, as the reply elicited to that question has been unsatisfactory, I will ask you another question. I think I heard you say that you were at the Papawai meeting : were you there ? —Yes. 870. I think I heard you say yesterday that some of the Waikato people were there, and also some of the West Coast people?—No, I did not say so. What I said was this: that certain of the people present at that hui separated themselves from the others, and they combined with the party who were asking for a Maori Council. 871. What were the other people doing? —Another section were asking for home rule, and the third section were supporting the Bill, to which amendments were made. 872. Then, I understand you to say that the people were divided into three sections or schools of thought — one section were asking for home rule, another section were asking for a Maori Council, and the third section were supporting the Bill. Is that so ?—Yes. 873. With which of these three lines of thought did you identify yourself—with those who were in support of the home-rule movement, or with those who were in favour of a Maori Council, or with those who were supporting the Bill ?—I was in support of the Bill. I acted in accordance with my own views and with those of my people. 874. You say that you were acting on behalf of your people, and that you were in support of the Bill: was it not their wish to support either a Maori Council or home rule ?—No. I was in support of the Bill, for this reason : that my people are and always have been loyal subjects of the Queen, and we would never associate ourselves with any movement which would be outside of the Queen's laws. My people have always been loyal supporters and soldiers of the Queen, and I myself also. 875. Do you mean to tell me as a fact that you were sent here by your people to support this movement, and not to speak for the kotahitanga, or one of the other movements of which you have spoken ?—Yes; I am saying what is the case. I have never been a member of the kotahitanga, nor have I ever taken any part in its previous huis. 876. Up to the present moment do you still hold these views ?—Yes; that is the fact. 877. Very well; I will now ask you this question : If what you say is correct, and you are correctly expressing the wishes of the men who you say sent you here to represent their wishes, I ask you, in the event of the Premier refusing to adopt the amendments which the meeting made in the Bill, and which are entirely different from the Bill itself, would you not, of course, object to the Bill ?—I have already replied to the cross-examiner. 878. I only want a " Yes," or a"No " ?—I shall reply as I please, and this is my reply :If the Premier refuses to accept the amendments, then let the House deal with the matter. The House, no doubt, will pass the Bill as it decides will be for the best benefit of the Maori people. That is my reply. 879. That is all very well, but you have left the Premier's Bill there, and you have sheltered yourself behind what the House will do?— All that the Premier can do is to introduce the measure ; the House has to pass it. 880. You have said that the purpose for which you came here—the purpose for which your people sent you here —was to amend the Bill—that that was why you went to Papawai—that you did not come here either to ask that the Council should be constituted, nor did you come here to embrace the kotahitanga movement, or to further any one of those other movements of which you have been speaking, but that at the present moment you are here for the one purpose—the position appears, therefore, to me to be this : that if the Bill is not amended in accordance with the wishes of the people who sent you here to express their views, then you cannot fail to object to the Premier's Bill ?—Well, I replied before, but I suppose I shall have to reply again. 881. I only want you to say "Yes," or "No"? —I do not want you. to reply. I will reply myself. Ido not think you can reply to your own question; it is for me to reply to it.

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882. Perhaps you do not like the question—it pinches you a bit. You have already given your own private opinion that you are in support of the Premier's Bill, but that is not what your people sent you here to do ? —I must give a reply to that before you go on to anything else. I have already explained to the Committee what are the views of my people, and have already alluded to the amendments drawn up and submitted to the Premier, with a view to their being embodied in the Bill, and I say it now rests with the House to decide upon those amendments, and it will be for the House to pass whatever they consider to be the best measure for the Maori people. My idea is this : that if I persist in opposing this Bill I cannot see any other means whereby my people will obtain the redress and assistance that they hope for. I can see no other means whereby their wishes can be met except through the medium of Parliament. 883. Very well; now I will ask you this : Supposing some other person introduces some other Bill which will provide that it is not proper that the Maori lands should come under the mana of the Board, you could not fail to be in support of that Bill if the House passed it ? —You must straighten that question up again. You do not explain what you mean. You say the Board is not to have the management; if so, who is to have it ? That is what I want to know. 884. Supposing some other person—supposing, for instance, the Opposition—brought in a measure such as I have outlined, and supposing it were passed by the House, would you support it ? ■ —I do not understand you yet. You must explain more than you have said. You must explain who is to have the management of the Maori lands under this scheme. You say the Board is not to have it, but who is to have it; that is what I want to know? 885. Some such body as a runanga, or a body of persons something similar to a Board ?—Now I understand you. Ido not know what my opinion of such a measure as that would be until I saw it. I refuse to commit myself to an expression of opinion until I know what the Bill is about which I am asked to give an opinion. 886. You said that whatever was submitted to the House, and passed by the House, you would support ? —Yes, so far as this Bill is concerned, the outlines of which we have before us; and because this Bill was prayed for from the Queen by the Maori people, and the Queen placed in the hands of her Ministers, the Government of New Zealand, the duty of drawing up a scheme, and the result is this Bill which is now before me, and you, and the House, and all the people of New Zealand. That is the measure to which I refer when I say we will accept whatever the House passes in connection with us, the Maori people, and which it decides upon as being the correct measure to bring into force. Ido not make these remarks with reference to any other Bill, because I have not seen any other. 887. The Chairman.] Ido not think the, question is put very clearly to the witness. I understood him to say that he was in favour of this Bill, and that he wished to have the amendments made at the Papawai meeting embodied in it, and if the Government did not see their way to do that, then he hoped that the House would amend it on the lines laid down by the Papawai meeting; was not that what you said ? —Yes; and that if after it had been brought into operation it was found not to be satisfactory, then that it should be amended to meet the case. 888. Mr. Kaihau.] Who is to amend it ?—-Parliament. That has always been the rule with regard to Acts passed by Parliament: that they have been amended from time to time. 889. Supposing the House refuses to amend it, what then ? —Well, one does not know what may happen until the time arrives. 890. Perhaps you will be prepared to admit that if the House refuses to amend the Bill after it is passed, and it was found to he undesirable, then evils must result to the Maori people, as the wishes they have expressed would not have been given effect to ?—Yes; probably evil would arise. I have already anticipated that evil might arise, and if it does the House will come to the rescue and amend the Bill accordingly. 891. That is-the point to which I want to follow you up, so that you may acknowledge that evil will arise ?—I say that the Government is the protector of both the Maori people and the European people in this country, and no doubt the Government would not allow the Maori people to be prejudicially affected. 892. I did not ask you anything about the Government ?—Just you keep quiet, and only ask questions. Do not try to confuse me. 893. Very well; then I understand you, and I have at last got a clear and distinct reply from you to this effect: that if the Bill proves to be unsatisfactory, and it is not amended in accordance with the desires of the Maori people, and the Parliament refuses to come to the rescue, then your people will suffer an injustice ?—My reply is this : Let this Bill be introduced with reference to my district only, and let the district which my friend the cross-questioner represents be left out of the operation of the Bill. Perhaps that will satisfy the cross-questioner. That is what I have already said to those who oppose the Bill: that it should be kept out of their districts. 894. I am not asking you to make a speech? —I want you to understand me. 895. And do you mean to say that you take upon yourself the responsibility of approving of a measure which does not fall in with the views which you have already said you were sent here by your people to represent ?—Now, just keep perfectly quiet and silent until I reply to that question. I have given to this Committee the views of my people. I have stated what they desire, and I say that if these amendments as brought down by us are not embodied in the Bill, then let the House pass a measure upon what lines it thinks fit, and bring it into operation in my district. I am empowered by my people to say all this, because we say that we have no other channel whereby we may hope for a state of things which will come to our assistance. My district is all open. There is no system of reserve, or any other system in force there. There are many papatupu lands there —lands the title of which has not been ascertained, and lands which are held under Crown grant, and unless a satisfactory measure is passed nothing can be done with all those lands. The land cannot be worked. That is why lam so strong in expressing the views of my people in supporting the Bill. If my friend the questioner wants another state of things, let him keep his district

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from being brought under the operation of the Bill. Ido not think he can have any more questions to ask. 896. The witness directed me not to do anything until he had finished his reply, and I have listened and listened to that reply, and I have heard nothing? —I say there is no reason why you should ask me any more. I have replied to everything that you have asked me. 897. I should like to ask you whether you are in possession of any written document, any letter of instructions, from your people instructing you to express their wishes to the Committee as ' you have done—that you are here to support this Bill. The reason why I ask the question is this : that you have already said that the first desire of the people was to amend the Bill, and I wish to know whether you have any written authority from your people to support the Bill without amendments? —No. What I have said is perfectly clear. 898. I want you to say, "No," or "Yes," that is all?—I have never told the Committee that I did not want the amendments. 899. I understand that reply to mean that you do not possess any document from your people authorising you to change the views which you first took up ?—I told the Committee all the circumstances of the hui at Papawai, and I told the Committee the views of the East Coast people and the views of the West Coast people. It is all before the Committee, and I am acting on behalf of my people now when I say that if these amendments cannot be embodied in the Bill then let the Bill pass without them. My people have placed themselves in my hands, so that I may look after their interests here in Wellingon. 900. I am asking you a question about the three thousand people who have signed a letter in support of the amendments to the Bill; I do not ask anything about the ten thousand who are absolutely opposed to the Bill, but as to the three thousand who are in support of the amendments : have you any letter in your hands now from those people ? —This is the first time that you have asked about the three thousand; you asked about my people before. The Chairman : With regard to the question put by Mr. Kaihau, I may say that I do not think he need press that question. The Committee has accepted the different witnesses as being accredited by different sections of the Maori people, and I think the Committee has accepted this witness also as being accredited by a section of the people. Mr. Kaihau : No doubt the Chairman is quite right, but I would impress upon the Chairman that this witness has stated that he did not come here originally to support the Bill, but for the purpose of having the amendments made by the meeting at Papawai incorporated in the Bill—that he came here having been expressly sent by his people to draw up a schedule of amendments and new clauses for insertion in the Bill. Now he says that even if those amendments and new clauses are not included in the Bill let it pass. To my mind, that argues that he is acting on his own responsibility and without the sanction of his people in supporting the Bill without the amendments. Therefore I want him to say, if he will do so, that he is acting on his own responsibility, and if he will say so definitely then I can understand him. However, I will withdraw the question if the Chairman thinks it ought not to be put. : The Chairman: Ido not think the question should be pressed. Hon. Mr. Carroll: The petition will show what is the position. Witness : If the Committee will read the petition they will see that what we say is, that we are in support of the Bill with the amendments made by the hui at Papawai. 901. Mr. Kaihau.] The Committee will, no doubt, appreciate the thing. I have withdrawn my question. I think I understood the witness to say that he was a man who was identified with the Land Court work, and with matters of that description, and therefore he was in a position to know the wants of the Maori people ?—Yes; I am a licensed advocate, or Native agent, appearing before the Court as a lawyer. lam one of those reprehensible people. 902. Supposing you were a party in the administration of affairs as provided for under this Bill, would you know how to administer matters in connection with your people's land?— Yes. I am the principal man amongst my people who takes a principal part in matters of this kind, either in Native Land Court matters or in transactions between Maoris and Europeans, and all such things. The Judges of the Native Land Court who have from time to time visited my district can corroborate what I say. Unfortunately, I have no other evidence here but the word of my own mouth in support of what I say. 903. Very well; now, as you say that you are a man who possesses the necessary knowledge in connection with the administration of Maori lands and with Court matters, and with the investigation of titles, and so forth, therefore I would ask you this : Supposing the kotahitanga and the people were asking for a Maori Council and they get what they asked for, and are empowered to constitute this Council and assume the management of their own lands, and they are not interfered with by any Board, would you support that—supposing the House should pass a measure empowering such a state of things ?—ls not that the same sort of things that lam asking for ? Is not that the same as is contained in this Bill ? 904. No, it is not ?—I am asking for what the three thousand people ask for—such a state of things as is asked for in the request that mana be given to the committees and the Board. 905. Yes; but I have a special interest in my question, and the Board is to be struck out of the question altogether. I ask this: Supposing the House passes a law which appoints such persons as you claim to be men of mind, and intelligence, and knowledge, and experience to administer matters, would you support that ?—Does your question mean Maoris, or does it contemplate pakehas as well ? 906. My question is this : Supposing the House passed a measure stipulating for the inclusion of a pakeha in the administrative body ; that is the only pakeha whom my question contemplates ?— If the proposition fell in with my views I should support it. If the name " Board "is so obnoxious to you I will substitute the name " committee." Let the members of that committee be Maoris, 10—I. 3a.

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and let the Commissioner of Crown Lands be Chairman. - I would be agreeable to such a proposition as that; but if they were to be all Maoris Ido not know. 907. I am not asking you about the Board or anything else of that kind, but about the Maoris pure and simple, and I understand you to say you would not have Maoris only there, but that you must have the Commissioner of Crown Lands there also as Chairman ?—Yes; or if any other pakehas were put in it would be all right. When the Maoris have learned how to administer matters, then would be time enough to let the administrative body consist of Maoris only. 908. Are you still ignorant then ? —No ; I am excessively experienced, but then other people do not know as much as I do. Even though lam a man of knowledge, experience, and sagacity, still that would be very greatly counteracted by the fact that, if they were all Maoris on the Board, my companions being ignorant men without any experience, my knowledge would be wasted. Another thing is that the Maoris as a people have no money. Mr. Kaihau : I think the Chairman should put a stop to these kind of speeches in reply to questions. They are not replies. The Chairman : I think the witness is only elucidating his reply. Witness: A committee constituted of Maoris only would have no money, which would be a great evil. 909. Mr. Kaihau.] Supposing the Maoris had no land, how do you suppose they would be able to get any money ? Is it not a fact that it is on the security of their lands that the Maoris can get money ? —Yes, that is so; but if there were only Maoris on the Board it would be very difficult indeed for them to get any money. Capitalists would never be willing to give their money to Maoris only; but if the Commissioner of Crown Lands was appointed as a member of the Board to operate with the capitalists in these matters, then the capitalists who had money to lend would have confidence in the body who were seeking to borrow money. 910. I will now ask you a short question : Supposing the land were your own, would you be willing that the Commissioner of Crown Lands should be set up to instruct you what to do ?—I have already replied to that question, when I said that I am speaking on behalf of myself and my people with reference to our lands. 911. Is it not an admission of your own ignorance and incapacity that you should consider it necessary that some other person better qualified than yourselves should assume the administration of your affairs ? Is not that equivalent to an expression of opinion by yourself about yourself, "I am not competent to administer my own affairs, therefore it is necessary that some one else should do it for me " ?—No. It is because of the vastness of my capacity that I acknowledge this is the best means whereby the greatest benefit would be secured to me. 912. Ido not think that is a proper reply to the question ?—I think it is a very proper reply. 913. I would point out to the witness that all the people of small capacity—all the lunatics in the country —have trustees, and people of that sort, appointed to look after them and their affairs; and in the same way all invalids and people who are physically incapacitated have hospitals and such institutions, in which they are cared for. In the same way all over this colony, in every department, there are capable men whose duty it is to look after and protect the incapable, and look after their affairs. There are hospitals for the sick and invalids, and there are people to look after farms, and to inspect stock, and, in fact, to look after everything of every description; and you ask that the Commissioner of Crown Lands should be appointed to be the caretaker of the Maori lands, of yourself and of your people and of all their affairs, and that shows that your people must be incapable and yourself a fool, if you think it is necessary to have such assistance in the management of your affairs ? —Well, now, Ido not like the question. I feel pouri about that question, because that suggests that lam a porangi; but if that is so, then the Government'must also be porangi, because they have appointed such officers as the Public Trustee, who is a trustee for everybody ; and then there are Commissioners and trustees of the Crown lands. It must be, therefore, that the Government are also porangi, because they found it necessary to appoint such officers as those. So I would suggest to my questioner that it is probable that his question is foolish, instead of the people who he suggests are foolish. The success and the welfare of this colony is secured through these Government officers, whose function it is to guard the interests of the colony; and therefore it is that I hope to see some similar scheme put in force in connection with the lands of the Maoris. 914. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Do you not consider that, as the Crown lands are administered by the Commissioner of Crown Lands, therefore the lands of the Maoris should be administered in the same way ? —Yes ; and the lands of my questioner are probably in that condition also. He may have lands that it would be necessary for some one to look after and conserve. 915. Mr. Kaihau.] That is quite so, but I am not going to accept this measure as the means whereby it should be done. Ido not wish to be stigmatized as a child, and foolish, and not able to look after my own affairs. As the witness has cited the Public Trustee as a case in point, I would like to say that the case is not at all parallel with the case of these Maori lands. Of course, you recognise that it is not you or anybody else who gets a benefit from the appointment of the Public Trustee, but that officer works so as to get the benefit for the Government. The Government sets up these officers to protect their own interests, and not the interests of other people. Is not that so ? —lt was because you suggested to me that I was possibly porangi when I said that it would be well to have a committee to look after our affairs that I replied that if that was the case, then the Government must be porangi in appointing a Public Trustee. The Chairman: This seems to be an argument between the questioner and the witness on a question of policy, and has nothing to do with the evidence which the Committee wants to get with regard to this Bill. I would prefer that Mr. Kaihau should ask questions, and that the witness should reply to them, and that this argument should cease. Mr. Kaihau: I think that my question is relevant to the Bill. If I ask any other sort of question this experienced lawyer here will wriggle away from a direct reply. The Chairman : You had better confine yourself to asking questions.

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916. Mr. Kaihau.] Very well; the Chairman says I must confine myself to direct questions about the Bill. Now, I shall ask the Chairman to-take notice of the replies I shall get to these questions. Clause 7of the Bill which is before the Committee provides that there shall be five members of the Board ; how many Maori members are there to be among those five : are they to be all Maoris or are they to be all Europeans ? I mean, what is the desire of your people in accordance with the amendments ?—My reply will be very short. There are to be five members—now you keep quiet and let me speak, it is my turn now. What the Maoris' amendment says is that there should be four Maori members and one European —the Commissioner of Crown Lands. 917. That is all you want ? —That has already been laid before the Committee. 918. Supposing that is refused, what then ? —Then, I will leave the matter to the House, to with the Bill and with the amendments. 919. The Committee must understand that—the Committee must understand that you mean that your people are willing to accept not less than four Maori members on the Board ?—I object to your making up replies for me. I can give my own replies, and I will not have you making them up for me. 920. Now, with regard to clause 13 in the original Bill, which is clause 19 in the Bill as amended by you, what have you to say to that ?—I will give one reply now in anticipation of any similar question which may be asked me, even if they amount to five or six for each separate section of the Bill—one reply which will cover them all. We have drawn up our schedule of amendments and submitted them to the Committee, and here is the Bill also. It is for the Committee to decide, and eventually for the House to decide, between these two matters. I have made a statement and given evidence before the Committee, with reference to section 13 of the original Bill, that our right and title to our lands should still remain in our hands, but that it is proper that a certain right of administration should be given to the Board, so as to empower that body to give legal leases of the land under their control. That is what I have to say, and lam willing to leave it in the hands of the House for the House to decide upon. Further, I say that we have not as yet had an opportunity of proving the merits or demerits of the Bill, it not having yet been brought into operation. When it does come into operation, then we shall have an opportunity of deciding as to its merits or demerits ; and if we find that there are certain parts of it which are undesirable, then those parts can be amended. That is my general reply to all such questions. 921. Have you looked at section 14 of the Bill ?—I have replied to that question. 922. What do you think that section provides? —It provides for the constitution of new titles. 923. Does it not provide for the seizure of all Crown grants ? —There is no such word as " seizure " in that clause. 924. But if new titles are to be issued for everything, what does that mean ?—lt means that new titles will be issued by the Board. 925. You evidently do not understand that section ?—I understand it absolutely. 926. Does it not say that the Board can issue new titles, no matter what land it may be, whether it has been held under Crown grant or anything else—that that title can be upset and a new title issued by the Board ? Do you not know that is what it means ?—I know absolutely all that it means. I have not missed a single point in it. 927. Then, why do you not say whether it means this ?—I understood you to ask me whether I had looked at the clause. 928. How is the Committee to understand what you mean when you say you know the whole thing and yet will not tell the Committee what it means ?—-It is not my business to instruct the Committee. They must know more than I do, for are they not members of Parliament ? 929. Then, I will ask you this question : Is not the effect of that section that the Board will have power to do away with all old titles and issue new ones ? —My reply to that question is that the Bill is before the Committee, and amendments have been submitted to it. Hon. Mr. Carroll: I think Mr. Kaihau should make his question a little more plain. Do you assume that that section takes away titles from the Natives ? Mr. Kaihau : It provides this : that, if there is land held under Crown grant which the Board considers it necessary should be dealt with, it is within their power to supersede that Crown grant and issue a new title. Hon. Mr. Carroll: Will it not be clear that one title is to be substituted for another, just the same as is the case when the Court subdivides lands ; it calls in all the old orders and issues new ones in their place. 930. Mr. Kaihau.] Yes; but this is a different thing. Under this section the land becomes vested in the Board, and the partition of lands by the Native Land Court was a very different thing. The Court partitions the land and awards it to certain persons. That is why I want the witness to be entirely clear in the reply to my question. (To witness): I heard you say yesterday that you were certain you were competent to administer matters in connection with Maori lands. Do you anticipate that the procedure under this Board will be less burdensome on the Natives than the procedure under the laws which now exist ?—As far as regards the lands in my own district, I am confident that it would be less burdensome. Ido not know about other places. 931. Do you not realise that the first burden will be the Board, the second burden the Native Land Court, next the surveys, next the payment of the members of the Board, next the payment of all the Board's expenses, and matters that will arise in connection with disputes about leases and the making of roads, and so on ? Can you think that all that will be less burdensome when this Bill comes into force ? Would it not be much more burdensome to the Maoris ? Would they not have to bear a much bigger burden than they ever had before ?—ls there any more to come ? 932. Eeply to that question first and then you will see ?—I think it will be less burdensome. Of course, if the Board is constituted it will supersede the Native Land Court. 933. The Bill does not say so? —Now, just you be quiet. That is all provided for in the amendments.

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934. Yes ; if your amendments are,adopted it will be all right, but if they are cut out, what then ?—I tell you to keep silent. If you will speak I cannot speak too. The Chairman: The witness had better answer the question. Witness : Well, now about the roads; that is the fault in my district. There are no roads; but if this Bill becomes law, then roads will be provided for, and that will be a great benefit to my district. 935. Mr. Kaihau.] I did not ask you that. What I ask you is this: Whether, if the Bill becomes law, the burdens which the Natives will have to bear will be greater or less than they are at present ? The Chairman: The witness has answered that question most distinctly. He said the burden would be less, and it is no use asking the same question over and over again. Witness : I said the burden would be lighter, and then I went on to speak of the roads. 936. Mr. Kaihau.] I did not ask you about the roads ?—I say that if the country is roaded the value of the land in my district will be improved. 937. I did not ask you for a reply like that. You say that benefits will accrue from the roading : how will they be paid for? The titles will be seized from the owners, the Court will have to be paid for, and the new titles will have to be paid for. However, I will ask the question m this way: What rent can you get per acre from Europeans for land in your district?—A shilling an acre, and running up to Is. 3d., the reason for the rent being so low being that there are no roads. 938. We will assume that it is Is. an acre ?—You are asking me a question and I am answering it. You asked me about the rents per acre which we received for the lands in our district, and I would point out that there is another reason besides the want of roads which keeps the rent which we receive for our lands at so low a figure. It is that there are no representative bodies of the people there composed of only a few persons to negotiate these things on behalf of the people. If such a system were established, I believe the proper rental these lands would bring in would be from ss. to 7s. 6d., and even as much as 10s. an acre in some instances. 939. Do you mean to say you believe you would get 10s. an acre rent for land that is unbroken and is still in bush and fern, or do you mean land which has been taken thoroughly in hand ?—I mean the best land, of course. 940. You say that for the good land you believe you would get from ss. to 10s. an acre rent, and I ask you whether this good land has bush or fern on it still, and you say " No." Then, I suppose you mean it is only land which has been cleared and laid down in grass that could bring in such a rent as that. You reply again that it is the good land, but you do not particularise as to whether it is land laid down in grass or land which is still in the bush or fern state ? 941. The Chairman.] The question is this: Does the witness mean land in cultivation which if properly managed would bring a rent of 10s. an acre?— Yes. The bad lands and the lands which are not desirable, of course, would not bring in that rental. My lands are not roaded. 942. Mr. Kaihau.] That is not a reply to my question. Does the Chairman consider that that is a reply to my question. The Chairman: I understood Mr. Kaihau's question to be as to whether land which had been cleared and under cultivation would produce a rental of 10s. an acre, and the witness replies that such land would produce that rental. Mr. Kaihau : It is a quibble in the wording of the reply. He says when he replies that the good land would fetch that rent, but he does not distinctly say what is the good land. 943. The Chairman.] He has replied that such lands as are cleared and under cultivation and roaded would produce 10s. an acre rent. (To witness) : Would good land which has not been cleared and under cultivation and roaded produce 10s. an acre ?—No; it would be about Is. or Is. 3d. an acre. Mr. Kaihau : That comes back to what I said : that Is. an acre would be about the general rent. The Chairman : Is that a sufficient answer to your question, Mr. Kaihau ? 944. Mr. Kaihau.] Yes. He said Is. When the Court comes to deal with land like that, what would it cost per acre? —I do not know. Some comparatively small blocks of land take along time to go through the Court, while other blocks containing a large area can be got through in a day. 945. Do you know what it would cost to survey an acre of that land?—lf a surveyor went up there merely to survey 1 acre it would probably cost more than £5. 946. And the Court expenses would come to at least Is. ; that would be £5 Is. Then, the order would cost £1, and the case would cost £1, so that would be £7 Is.; and there would be 2s. for the witness, which would bring it up to £7 35.; and there would probably be the cost of negotiation, which you may put down at 9d. Now, supposing you were the person upon whom devolved the duty of negotiating for the lease of an acre of this land under the Board, what remuneration would you require ? Hon. Mr. Carroll: I think Mr. Kaihau is trying to contrast one system as against the other, and that he is running one system into the other. He is now asking as to the present cost, and then I presume he will ask what the cost under the other arrangement will be. Mr. Kaihau: I object to your explaining my questions, and to having them explained for me. The replies must do that. Hon. Mr. Carroll: I just wanted to make the matter clear, that is all. 947. Mr. Kaihau (to witness).] Supposing you were one of the members of the Board, could you form any estimate of what it would cost to lease an acre of that land. Of course it might be a block of 10,000 acres, but I will say 1 acre to illustrate the argument ? The Chairman : I wish the witness and Mr. Kaihau to understand that that is an unfair way of putting the question. Mr. Kaihau is comparing 10,000 acres with 1 acre, and that is not fair in estimating the cost of the lease. It is very seldom that the Court sits to investigate 1 acre of land, and, of course, it would cost very much more in comparison with investigating a large block. You cannot make a comparison between the cost of investigating 1 acre and 10,000 acres.

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Mr. Kaihau: lam asking a direct question about 1 acre. Hon. Mr. Carroll: I think, Mr. Chairman, the question is fair, as long as Mr. Kaihau does not mix up the two systems. He says that it will cost so much under the present system, and he wants to know how much it will cost under the new system; but it seems to me that he is at present mixing up the two systems. The Chairman: You cannot make a comparison between the cost of negotiating the lease of 1 acre and the cost of negotiating the lease of 10,000 acres. Witness : Well, about this 1 acre. The lawyer might charge £20 for the deed, and the interpreter of the deed would make his charge, and the registration of the deed would mean another fee, and there would be duty and other things which would bring the expenses up to something considerable. So I may say it would cost as much to complete the matters in connection with 1 acre as it would in connection with 10,000 acres. 948. Mr. Kaihau.] Very well, we will say £10? —More than that. It would cost considerably more than that to draw up the deed, and pay the lawyer, and do the other things which are necessary. It would cost a lot more. 949. Supposing that all the preliminary troubles had been got over, that the title to the land had been adjudicated upon, and the survey had been completed, and everything necessary had been done, and the land was before the Board to lease by the Board, do you think it would then cost as much to lease as it does now? —My replies, of course, have been replies given under the supposition that the laws which are now in existence were still in existence. It would not cost so much if the Board were at once constituted and were dealing with these matters. It might cost from £1 to £3; the drawing-up of the document would be all the expense. 950. Well, we will say £I?— Say £3. 951. All right, say £3. Then, reckoning in with that £3 all the preliminary expenses, that would bring the total amount of money expended in bringing things into this state of perfection to £10 ? —Yes ; the whole of that money would be refunded. When the Board had leased the land to the pakeha he would pay it all back in rent. 952. I have not asked that yet?— Well, that is the reply. 953. I have not asked whether the money is ever to be refunded. I ask what the cost would be. You must not anticipate my questions. It is my province to ask you the questions and yours to reply. That would bring the cost up to about £10 ? —Oh, you can keep the account. 954. You said £7 just now, and then there is the addition of £3 for the Board fee. How much is 7 plus 3 ?—I have told you to keep the account and ask questions. 955. You cannot add 3 and 7 together ?—That is not a question. Ask a question. 956. That is my question : how much is 3 and 7 ? —That is not a question. The Chairman : I do not think that question should be pressed. 957. Mr. Kaihau.] I have a great big question following that up, but I want a reply to this one first ?—1 do not know whether it is going to be big or little. Hon. Mr. Carroll : I think the answers to the questions show that under the present law the cost of hearing the case, the cost of witnesses, the cost of survey, the cost of the lawyer, the cost of registration, and, in fact, the general costs over that 1 acre, would amount to £20, or something like that. Then the witness was asked whether the cost would be lighter under a Board's administration, and he said "Yes." Then Mr. Kaihau asked him, " What do you think would be the cost ? " and the witness said, " From £1 to £3." On that Mr Kaihau said, " Let us put it at £1," to which the witness replies, " Put it at £3," and then Mr Kaihau says, " Add that £3 to what it costs under the present law and how much does it come to?"

Tuesday, 25th October, 1898. Mr. Paratene Ngata in attendance : examination continued. 958. Mr. Kaihau.] The last questions I asked you when we sat on Friday were with respect to the preliminary expenses in connection with the land, and the replies which you gave were to the effect that those expenses would amount to £7, including the survey expenses, and that the expenses under the Board would amount to £2 or £3, which would bring the expenses in dealing with each acre up to £10. The Chairman : I think there is a mistake in Mr. Kaihau's mind in putting that question. I understood the witness to say that under the present system of administration the expenses would amount to £7, but that under the administration by the committee of Maoris which it is proposed to set up the expense would only amount to £3. I think the mistake which Mr. Kaihau is making is that he is adding these two sums together, and thus makes out the £10. 959. Mr. Kaihau.] I meant that the expenses which had been incurred in dealing with these lands by the Court before these Boards were called into existence would, when the Boards were called upon to deal with them, have to be added, so as to make up the total expense of administering the lands? —No; I said that it had cost a good deal more originally; that the lands dealt with under the existing laws must cost a good deal more than we anticipate the expense will be if this Bill becomes law ; that I do not think, under this Bill, it will cost more than £3 to deal with a block of land. You asked a lot of test questions about a block of land of 1 acre. 960. Very well, then, I will put another question to you in this way : Supposing the case of a block of land of 10,000 acres the title to which had been investigated by the Court, and the surveys of which had been made, and all the usual forms gone through, and then this Bill becomes law and is brought into operation, and the land is brought under the Board and dealt with by the Board, what would it cost per acre —how much would it cost per acre for these 10,000 acres in the first instance ?—I can only give you a general reply, that I cannot say what would be the expenses in connection with the investigation of the title and the survey under the existing laws ; I cannot

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say how much per acre in dealing with that 10,000-acre block the expenses would amount to under the present law, because in some instances the investigation might only take two or three days, whereas in other cases it might take ten months. Then I go on to say that if the work which is now done by the Native Land Court is handed over to the Board it will cost very much less than it does at present. The committees will arrange everything, and they will simply submit the result of their decision to the Board, and the Board will confirm it. That is very much better than what has been done hitherto. That is my reply. 961. That is an unsatisfactory reply ?—lt is for the Committee to say whether it is satisfactory or not. 962. Well, I will shorten my question and put it this way : I understand you to say that the land bears a very heavy burden now as it is dealt with by the Court—that some lands take a long time to investigate and some a short time : is that so ?—Yes, under the existing law ; and I say that a law should be brought in to rectify this. 963. You say that in some instances they bear a lot of burden now and in other cases only a little : can you give us an average between the lot and the little ? —I have given you the reply already : that some lands only cost a little and some a lot. 964. Can you not give us an average between the two ?—I cannot give figures ; neither could you. 965. I am asking about your own knowledge, that is all ? —Then, what I say is that I could not give figures ; neither could you. 966. I did not ask you about myself ; I asked you about yourself. The Chairman : The witness must not reply back in that way. If he cannot say what the cost would be under the present administration he must say so. 967. Mr. Kaihau (to witness).] You cannot reply then?—l think the questioner wants me to reply that it costs so much per acre. That is what I understood him to mean, and I say I cannot. 968. Then, can you say what the probable cost per acre over this 10,000-acre block would be if the Bill now before the Committee becomes law and the block had to be dealt with by the Board? —No. I think it would cost less than formerly. 969. But I want a direct reply : how much less ? The Chairman: The witness has already replied that he cannot give a direct reply to that question. 970. Mr. Then, if he says he cannot reply that is all I want. (To witness): You allow, the Committee to guess as to the original cost of surveys and other expenses in dealing with the lands. Would it average Is. an acre?— Sometimes Is., and sometimes 35., and sometimes 9d. per acre. It depends very much upon the area of the land. 971. Well, for the sake of illustrating the argument, we will say Is. an acre. Hon. Mr. Carroll: It is sometimes 6d. and sometimes 3d., according to the area. There is a regular scale of fees. Mr. Kaihau: It comes to about Is. an acre now with the survey rates. The Chairman : There is a regular scale; so much for bush land, and so much for open land, and so much for scrub land. 972. Mr. That is exactly what I want to arrive at —to strike an average between the various rates. We will say, for the sake of argument, that it costs Is. an acre all round. lam asking the question so as to illustrate the matter, in order that the Committee may form an opinion as to whether this Bill is likely to be for the benefit or the disadvantage of the Maoris?— Very well, lam willing to say Is. Of course, I must point out to the questioner that it does not matter what Act is brought into force, or under what particular theory the lands may be dealt with, the lands must be surveyed first. 973. You admit, then, that the lands must be surveyed first, and that the cost of that survey would be about Is. an acre ?—Yes, for the sake of the argument. 974. And what would a second survey amount to over a block of 10,000 acres —say, surveys for subdivision, so that it could be leased : would the 10,000 acres all be leased to one man ? —No. It might be divided out. It all depends upon how the land was situated. My reply must be the same ; it depends upon how the land is subdivided. 975. Shall we assume that it would cost 6d. an acre ?—All right. You can assume that for the sake of the argument. 976. Then, when the Maori lands came to be cut out of a block that would be three surveys ? No ; only two. One partition would do the whole of that. 977. Very well; you have agreed that for the surveys it would cost Is. 6d. an acre. When the land came to be roaded what would that cost per acre ?—I could not form any estimate, because the roading of some blocks of land would cost very much more than others. 978. That is to say, you cannot reply to my question ? —I could not say. 979. I want a note taken of this : that the witness cannot give an estimate of what it would cost to road a block of land ?—I have not said anything of that kind. The questioner has said it. 980. I cannot understand what you mean. I asked you if you could say what would be the cost of roading a block of land, and you said you could not, and now you say you did not say that. I want a reply to that question ? —I do not know. 981. If you do not know, what do you mean by supporting a Bill and asking that it be brought into law when you cannot say what the cost of administering the land would be under it ? Why should you ask that the Bill be passed into law when you do not know anything about it ? You began by telling us that you are a man of knowledge and experience, and yet you do not know anything about this Bill?—I repeat that lam a man of knowledge and experience. 982. What do you know ?—I know what I know, but I do not know what the cost of these surveys and other things would be. I want this Bill passed into law myself, and applied to my lands.

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983. I did not ask you about that. I want replies to my questions?—l am replying. I want the Bill to be brought into operation for my lands and not for yours. It is for me to say what should be done with my own lands. 984. I am not asking you about your lands, but about the Bill ?—That is what I am saying: that I want the Bill for my lands. 985. The Bill does not say that it was specially introduced for your benefit. If it did I would not ask you any questions. Why should Idosoif it was not supposed to benefit other people ? —I am making an application that this Bill should be passed with reference to my lands. 986. Then, why do you not ask the Premier to withdraw this Bill from before the Committee and alter it so that it shall only affect you when it is passed. The Chairman : I think the argument has gone far enough. Witnesses have come here to give their opinions with reference to the Bill. One witness says he is not in favour of the Bill and gives his reasons, and this witness gives his ideas and says he is in favour of the Bill. I think these questions as to his opinions with regard to the Bill are not advancing matters at all, and should be stopped. Mr. Kaihau : Yes ; but I am endeavouring to elicit the reasons why some people oppose the Bill and others support it. I think that all the points which lam questioning the witness about are strictly confined within the limits of the Bill. I say, if we cannot get some approximate estimate of what it is likely to cost if the Bill is brought into operation, how can the Maoris judge whether it will be for their benefit or not ? How are they to know how long it will take the land to bring in anything to them if they do not know the amount of the preliminary expenses in the first instance ? We have got the estimate of the surveys and so on under the present system at Is. 6d. an acre, but we cannot arrive at any estimate of what the cost per acre would be for roads. However, 1 will go on in this way : If there is a river in this block of 10,000 acres, and a big bridge is built over it, and that bridge costs, we will say, £10,000 before it reaches to the other side so that the land there can be thrown open for settlement, how much of that £10,000 would the block of 10,000 acres be called upon to bear ? It might be that it would be called upon to bear the whole of the cost, and that would amount to £1 an acre. That would bring the cost up to £1 Is. 6d. an acre. Now, if the Board is to go on with the administration of the land, where is the interest of that money to come from ? The Chairman: These are statements with reference to the Bill, and not questions to the witness at all. I think Mr. Kaihau should ask questions now, and we shall get the benefit of his opinion by-and-by. Mr. Kaihau : Yes; but that is what lam trying to point out. The witness has told us that he is a man of vast knowledge and intelligence and experience, but when he comes to be asked to explain the provisions of this Bill we see where the shoe pinches, and that he dees not know anything about the Bill. Hon. Mr. Carroll: It is only fair that there should be intelligence in interpreting the Bill, but the questions with regard to it should be intelligent if they are to elicit intelligent replies. Mr. Kaihau: In my opinion, my question is perfectly clear. Ido not think it could possibly be clearer. Witness : Well, here is my reply to Mr. Kaihau's statement. The Chairman: We do not want a reply to Mr. Kaihau's statement. We want Mr. Kaihau to ask a question and you to answer it. I cannot allow this to go on for ever. 987. Mr. Then, I will go back to this point : I have got Is. 6d. written down as the cost per acre of the survey of blocks and so on, and then you say you cannot estimate the cost of roading. Can you give an estimate with regard to the cost of the bridge ? Supposing the bridge were to cost £10,000, how much of that sum would the block of 10,000 acres be called upon to bear ? —I do not know. The bridge would be for the benefit of the whole place, and not for the benefit only of the block on which it stood. Of course, if the whole were to be charged to the block itself the answer is a very simple one in arithmetic. If the bridge cost £10,000, and the block was of 10,000 acres, the cost would be £1 per acre ; but my reply is that the bridge would improve the whole of the lands in its neighbourhood. It would not take long before the increased value of the land would pay off the cost of the bridge. 988. Yes, yes; but Ido not want that yet. I will get along to that presently. We will leave that question. Still following up the question of this 10,000-acre block, how much would the administration of that block in the way of leases and so forth by the Board cost ?—I do not know, but I think it would be less than it costs now. 989. Supposing the Board assumes the control of the land and borrows £200,000, who will pay the interest on that ?—I do not think that is provided for in the Bill; £5,000 is, I think, the limit. 990. I think £200,000 is mentioned in the Bill, but cut it down to £5,000: who is to pay the interest on that, and what would be the interest ?—I think it says 5 per cent, per annum is what this would cost. 991. How much would that come to over a block of 10,000 acres? —The answer to that is very simple. Five per cent, would be £250 on a block of 10,000 acres. 992. How much per acre would that be ?—Well, you have to keep the account. 993. I do not want you to look at any account I may keep, but to answer the question yourself ?—lt would be 6d. per acre. 994. Then, that makes 25., with the original Is. 6d. ?—Am I to reply to that ? 995. Yes ?—I am paying 10 per cent., and 8 per cent., and 7 per cent, myself. 996. Then, before these lands could be leased it would cost 2s. an acre for these expenses : is that so ?—No. It is only on the money which has been borrowed that interest has to be paid. The surveys, having been paid for before, would no longer remain a debt on the land. 997. Can you speak as to Native-school reserves in a block? Can you say what they would

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cost per acre in a block of 10,000 acres ?—No; Ido not know. The question of the schools is in the hands of the colony. 998. Then, you cannot reply to that question ?—That is what upsets me. You go on asking me three or four times when I have already said " No," and I have to say it again. 999. I could not get a reply; it was not a reply to my question at all ?—I do not know. 1000. Then, you know nothing at all about this Bill ? —I know a lot about it. 1001. You do not know its provisions then ?—I know all of them. 1002. Why, then, cannot you reply to a simple question like this ?—Because that is not in the Bill. There is nothing in the Bill which says how much per acre things will cost. 1003. But that is in the statement which you made before this Committee. Hon. Mr. Carroll: No ; the setting-apart of educational reserves. Mr. Kaihau:, That is part of what has to be done by the Board, and they must have money to do it. Hon. Mr. Carroll: The Board does not undertake the work of the Educational Department. Mr. Kaihau : Then, why did Mr. Carroll ask a question about it if it is not in the Bill ? If he had not asked it there would have been no necessity for my putting a question on the subject. Witness : These things are in the new clauses and the amendments. 1004. Mr. Kaihau.] Then, here is a question about another thing. I want the witness to say how many years it would take the land, when administered by the Board, to pay back the original outlay. You have admitted an expenditure of 2s. per acre, and there were several other things about which I questioned you, and about which you could not form an estimate. We will say, for the sake of argument, that it brings the total burden on the land to ss. an acre. Supposing the land had passed under the administration of the Board, and it had cost ss. an acre, including the original proceedings in investigating the title, surveying, and so on, how many years would it take under the administration of the Board to pay off the money borrowed and the interest before there would be any real benefit to the owners through the administration of the Board ? I would suggest ten years ?—No ; suggest nothing. It is for you to ask the question and for me to reply. 1005. Then, do so?— Then, you stay still and say nothing, and I will reply. Some lands it would take one year, and some lands it would perhaps take two years. The position would be this : that with some lands the Board would have nothing at all to do except simply lease it. Other lands, perhaps, the Board would have to subdivide before it leased it. No doubt some of the money would be retained by the Board to pay the expenses, and the balance would be paid over to the Native owners. That is all. 1006. That is not clear. I have supposed a case in which the Board was borrowing £5 an acre on the land, and I want to know how many years it would take under the administration of the Board for the land to pay back that £5 an acre with interest on it, and leave a balance for the owners. That is what I want a reply to. There is so much a year for expenses, so much a year for interest, so much a year for income, so much a year to pay off the debt and interest, and the balance to be paid back to the owners ; how long would that take? —My reply is that in the first year there would be something, because the surveys and the Court expenses have been paid already, and all that the Board would have to do would be to manage matters in connection with the leases. The Maori owners would receive the money that very year. 1007. You say that all the Court expenses and surveys have been paid already: who paid them ? —We paid them long ago. 1008. lam not talking about those lands. There are instances in which there are survey charges and rates payable still: those are the lands lam talking about ?—I am talking about my own lands. That is what makes my evidence so clear. I do not say anything about the lands of other people. 1009. You cannot reply ?—I have replied. 1010. You can only reply about your own lands, and not about the lands of other people. How, then, are we to estimate the value of the benefits that are to accrue to the people generally under this Bill if you cannot explain them ?—I have explained all matters about it to the Committee, but these questions of yours I cannot understand, nor do I believe the Committee can. 1011. For how many decades will this land remain in the hands of the Board before it eventually returns to the Native owners ? —I do not know. I know what the Bill provides with regard to borrowed money. 1012. You say you do not know ?—Wait; the limit of the time for which the money can be borrowed is forty-two years. That is all that the Bill says. 1013. I am not asking you about that, but how many years the land will be in the hands of the Board before it goes back to the Native owners. Do you know or do you not know? You do not know ?—I do not know ; but I have told the Committee that in my opinion when the Maoris have become to all intents and purposes pakehas, then it will no doubt be advisable that they should resume the control of their own affairs. 1014. Very well, then ; that is with regard to yourselves, but will the lands go back to your descendants, or will the Board have them for all time ?—The lands always remain the property of the owners, and will be handed down by them to their descendants in due course ; but the Board will manage them—work them, in fact. 1015. Oh, now you know that the land will go back ?—I say that the land will always belong to the Maoris and to their descendants down through successive generations; but the management of matters will be in the hands of the Board. 1016. And how many years will the land be in the hands of the Board before it goes back to the owners ?—I have already replied to that. 1017. I understand you do not know?—l have replied to that question. 1018. Then, you cannot say whether it will go back or whether it will not go back ?—My head aches with all these questions. I never heard such questions.

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1019. I want a reply to my question. Is there anything said in the Bill about how many years will elapse before the land goes back to the Native owners ? —I will reply to that once more. The land remains the property of the owners, but the administration is left in the hands of the Board. 1020. And how many years will elapse during which the Board will have the right of administration before the lands return to the Native owners ? —I do not know. 1021. There is nothing, in fact, in the Bill which says anything about it—whether it may not be a hundred years, or whether the lands may never go back? —I do not see anything about that in the Bill; but I see in your Bill that you want all the lands to be brought under the mana of the Maori Council. 1022. I am not asking you anything about my Bill ?—No ; I know that, but that is a statement I am making. 1023. You should not talk about that, but confine yourself to answering questions with regard to the Bill which is before the Committee. When my Bill comes before the Committee you can speak about it if you are here ?—Yes ; but your questions are like your Bill. 1024. I ask you whether ten or a hundred years will elapse before the land goes back to its owners, and you cannot say ?—I said I did not know, and that your Bill asks that all Maori lands shall come under the mana of the Maori Council. 1025. Very well, then; you do not know. Now, I ask you how are the Maori people to judge, if they do not know how long a time will elapse before the lands come back to their owners, whether this Bill will be for their benefit or not?—l and my people are satisfied that this is the Bill which will operate for our advantage. My tribe, and the people who are together with us in supporting this Bill, recognise that it will be for our benefit. Other people in other parts of the Island have sent in their objections,, 1026. I do not ask you anything about that ?—Pass this Bill for me and my people only, is all I ask in consequence of these objections made by people in other parts of the Island. 1027. How can your people understand the provisions of the Bill when you do not understand it ? I have asked you many questions, none of which you can reply to ? —I thoroughly understand the Bill, and so do my people. As to your questions about the money, and so on, you will have to wait until I can figure them out, and then I will give you a written reply. 1028. You say you do not know how many years it will take before the land goes back to the Native owners, and yet you say you will figure that out and tell me how long it will take : how is that ? —I will not trouble myself about that. Ido not know. I can figure out the cost per acre. I cannot figure out the other, because the land is my own now, although its administration is in the hands of the pakehas. When I, the Maori, reach the summit of European civilisation in which I shall be able to administer those lands as the pakehas do it will be enough for the Board to hand the land back into my hands. 1029. Does the Bill say so ?—No. 1030. Then, that is only your private opinion. These are the amendments you referred to when you said that certain amendments should be put into the Bill before you could agree to it. Is that so?— This is what I have said to the Committee. 1031. Yes; that is just it. I wish to have it distinctly understood that that is your own individual opinion, but that it is not in the Bill—that the land will presently be handed back to the Maoris, and I want you to understand that the Bill does not say so ? —I know quite well what the Bill says, but there are many Acts passed by this House which do not remain as they were passed during many years, and they are continually amended. What I want now is to seize the opportunity of having prosperity secured to my people. 1032. I have not got to that yet. I want you to explain how it is that the land still remains to the owners although the Board has control of it. You say you have still got the mana, but how can that be when the Board has the mana over it ? The Board can sell it, the Board can mortgage it, and the Board can lease it; where, then, does your mana come in when you say that your lands still remain in the possession of the owners? —So it does, but the Board has the management of it. The land belongs to me and to my children as my successors. The Board are not my successors, and if my children have children the land will belong to them and not to the Board, and therefore the land belongs to me and not to the Board. 1033. If the Board sells the land your children will not still have a right to it. You cannot say " No" to that ? —Oh, that is a different thing altogether. It is another pare of the Bill, which provides that the Board can sell under certain other specified Acts. 1034. You will not answer my question, and I shall continue to ask it until you do. If the Board sells the land, will your children still have a right to the ownership of it ?—The Board will only sell such portions of the land as it is competent for it to sell under certain other Aces. Then, as to the question of the money arising from the sale of that portion of the land, it will be used for the purpose of putting in a better condition the portion of the land which is retained and not sold. The land which, remains will be mine, and the money which has been obtained for the portion which has been sold will belong to me and to my children after me. 1035. Then, what I understand you to mean is that the land will pass away by the sale, and that the money will go to you and your children ? —-Yes ; some portions of the land. It is not as though all my lands will go, for they would not. 1036. Now I understand. You admit that you gave a wrong reply just now, for if the land was sold and passed away by sale, then it could not possibly still belong to you ? —No ; the part that went would go, and the part that remained would still remain. This measure is intended to reserve and preserve the Native lands. It only provides for lease and for the sale of small parts under certain conditions. 1037. Then, you are perfectly satisfied that you are right —that if the Board gets the land, and the Board sells that land, then the land will never go back to the owners ? You say it will be sold and that the money, the proceeds of the sale, will be retained for you and your children, 11—I. 3a.

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but that the land has passed away absolutely—that it is the money which will be secured to the owners at the time of the sale ? —Who are you quoting from now ? 1038. You?—l have said what I have to say. It is you who are making the reply. I shall ask that a note be taken down that it is Mr. Kaihau's reply and not mine. 1039. You are unable to reply, and therefore I explained what my question means ?—I have replied to it. 1040. Say Yes or No —give me a direct reply ?—I have done so ; but I will do it again. I say that under certain conditions, under the Public Works Act, the Board may sell certain portions of the land, but that the general effect of the Bill is to reserve the lands so that they shall not pass away from the Native owners. The only part which is left open is that certain things shall be done under the Public Works Act. Now, the bulk of my land will still remain to me and my children, and my share of the proceeds of the piece sold will remain for my children. Even though this Bill were not passed, the mana of the Public Works Act would still remain. 1041. I must point out to the Committee that the witness is wasting ever so much of my time ;he will persist in replying about things of which I did not ask him. What do you mean by saying that this Bill is introduced for the purpose of reserving the land for the Maori owners ? That is what you said, is it not ? And yet it provides that the Board can sell lands?— Only such portions of the land can be sold as it is competent to take under the Public Works Act, and the proceeds of those sales will be put to the use and benefit of the Native owners as though the land had not been sold. When you say Ido not know you are only making little of me. Look at the sections of the Bill. Do not make slighting remarks about me, but look at section 19 of the Bill and see what is there provided. 1042. I did not ask you anything about that section; I asked you if the land was reserved. You said the Bill was passed to reserve the lands from sale, and' yet the Board is to have power to bring about sales? —It is only of such lands as are provided for by that section. 1043. I want a direct reply to my question. If there is any power given under the Bill to sell land, then you must be wrong in saying that this Bill is to reserve the land from sale? —No; it is in the Bill. 1044. If the land is sold, what then ?—The proceeds of the land sold will be devoted to the enhancing of the portions which remain, so that it will be a direct benefit to the persons who own the land which was sold—a very great benefit. 1045. Then, it is not a rahui ? A reserve to be inalienable means that no sale can be made of it, but that it can be leased; but this Bill gives the power of sale. Hon. Mr. Carroll: Only under-certain conditions, which are clearly provided for in the Bill. 1046. Mr. Kaihau.] Then, the witness does not understand it ?—I do understand it, and that is the reason why I am supporting the Bill, and why I and my people are willing that it should be brought into operation in our district. 1047. Do you think that many benefits will accrue to your district if this Bill is brought into operation there?— Yes. I will explain all that. If this Bill is brought into operation in my district, then the people of my district will no longer have to bear the burden of Courts. We will look after our lands ourselves. We have over 500,000 or 1,000,000 acres of uninvestigated lands in our district, and this Bill will provide the means whereby those lands which are at present unoccupied may be brought into beneficial use. Another very important thing is the putting a stop to sales. There are no roads, however, in my district. 1048. Is that all ?—There are other things, but those are the most important. 1049. Does the Bill say it is going to set up a committee ?—lt is in our amendments, and in what I have said to the Committee. 1050. But it is not in the Bill, is it ?—No; it is not. That is another part of what we want put into the Bill. 1051. Supposing the Premier refuses to put that provision in the Bill, will you still accept the Bill ? The Chairman : I asked him that question myself, and he gave me a distinct answer. There is no necessity for him to answer that again. 1052. Mr. Kaihau.] Supposing a block of land contains 10,000 acres and is owned by a hundred persons, and we wiil say that after the lapse of forty years the hundred owners of this 10,000-acre block have increased and multiplied to a thousand, where is the land which is to provide for these people if the Board has got control of the land ? How is the Board going to provide land for these people ? During all this time they have been becoming pakehas, and know everything like pakehas. There is no time-limit in the Bill as to when the land is to go back to them. Is not that so?— The Act has to provide that the Native lands shall have their titles individualised and cut up amongst the owners, and that the Board is to have the administration of a certain portion of these lands. Then, as the people increase and the leases drop in, if it is necessary so to do, certain of the leased lands are to be handed back for the occupation of the persons who have increased in numbers, as the question contemplates. 1053. That is exactly the object I had in view in asking my question. I asked you originally how many years would elapse before the land would come back to the owners from the management of the Board. Now you say that certain portions of the land will come back to the owners, and will be utilised for the occupation of those people who have increased in number. When I asked you before when they would come back you said you could hot tell me ; can you tell me now ?—I will reply to that question. The law provides that the length of a lease shall be for twenty-one years, and twenty-one years shall be the length of the renewal of a lease. I say, with regard to the lands which have been cut off and set apart for lease, that if it becomes necessary, through the increase in population, that more land should be provided for the occupation of the owners, when one of these leases drops in it will be competent to set apart that portion of the land for the occupation of the owners. 1054. That is not provided for in the Bill. The Bill says nothing about that ? —The Bill provides for present requirements.

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Wednesday, 26th October, 1898. Mr. Paratene Ngata in attendance: examination continued. 1055. Mr. Kaihau.] 1 hope you understand that there is nothing in the Bill which provides that lands which are under lease can be taken and put to use of the owners as you were saying yesterday ?—No ; it is not in the Bill, of course, because the people about whom you were questioning me are not born yet. No doubt when we reach those generations of men whom you contemplate it will be possible to make such amendments in the measure as will meet their case. 1056. Yes ; but we cannot give rebirth to lands after they have been sold and leased and otherwise disposed of by the Board ?—This Bill provides for the reservation of Maori lands. It preserves the lands so that they can only be disposed of by lease, and if in the course of time it should transpire that certain of these leased lands are required for the better support of the Natives, then it would be competent, as the leases fall in, to devote certain of these lands to that purpose; but the day has not arrived when it is necessary to contemplate such a contingency. 1057. Ido not think you are giving a proper reply to my question. You do not seem to realise that there is no reservation in the Bill. It simply places the lands in the hands of the Board to deal with them as they think fit. You will persist in saying that the Bill does make a reservation of the lands, and that they will eventually go back to the owners. I really do not think there is any object in asking questions if you will persist in your misconception of the object of the questions put to you. Mr. Stevens : I think I must point out to Mr. Kaihau that there is a provision for reservation in the Bill, because it proposes to reserve the whole of the 5,000,000 acres of land which still belong to the Natives in this colony. Mr. Kaihau: That is so; but it does not reserve the lands for the use and occupation of the Native owners. It only reserves them for the purpose of leasing, and so on. Mr. Stevens : Yes; but that refers to the portions outside those which are required for their own occupation. 1058. Mr. Kaihau.] Yes; but I have supposed a case to bear out my contention, which has been this : Supposing a block of a particular area has a hundred owners, and when this Board comes into operation and assumes the administration of that land, and cuts off a sufficient portion for the use and occupation of those hundred owners, and we will say that after the lapse of forty years or so the number of owners has increased to a considerable extent, and the land set apart in the first instance for the original owners is found to be not sufficient for the increased number of owners, what then?—l have already replied to all that. I understood that you were not asking me about the Bill, but about certain probable events which have not yet taken place. 1059. But you must know that we have ample proof in the past history of mankind that as one set of owners die out another takes their place. Therefore I think lam justified in asking you a question about future generations; is it not so ? —We have not arrived at the proper time yet for considering that question. 1060. How are we to know that this will be a satisfactory measure in those days which you say have not yet come round ? —This Bill will preserve the lands for such contingencies as may arise in those future times about which you are talking. 1061. Would it not be satisfactory to place the Maoris under the same mana and rights as Europeans now use with respect to the disposal of their lands ? —Yes; with respect to certain descriptions of land; but there are other lands which are of such a description that it would not be desirable that the interest of each owner should be individualised, because instead of doing them any good it could not fail to do them harm. Another thing, is that, if a Maori were given absolute control over his land to do with it what he pleased, it would be providing a means whereby he would denude himself of all his land, and therefore he should not be given the same right to deal with his lands as is given to Europeans. 1062. Ido not think there is any necessity to make such a statement. In my opinion, Maoris are competent people to hold their own lands. If we only look back we will find that that was the cause of a lot of fighting in this country, because the Maoris persisted in holding on to their lands ?—■ That is so; but as against that you have to set the fact that the Maoris are a spendthrift race of people. They like to spend money in multifarious directions, and when they want money for any purpose they do not mind what means they adopt to obtain it. 1063. But Europeans are just the same. Look at the case of many Europeans who have thousands and tens of thousands of pounds, it does not take them long to get through the money if once they set about it ? —Yes ; but the pakehas possess knowledge of which we Maoris are ignorant. 1064. I do not deny the greater knowledge of the Europeans as compared with the Maoris, but I still contend that the Maoris are, and always have been, famous for holding on to their lands, and that has been the cause of war and fighting in times past ? —Oh, yes ; some Maoris are persistent in holding on to their lands, but then they are not workers. 1065. We will leave that subject. I think I understood you to say the other day that you threw up your position as Native Assessor because you were not paid enough for your services ; is that so? —Yes. I did not get enough, so I threw it up. Originally I used to get £1 2s. 6d. a day, but afterwards the Government took away the 2s. 6d. Then I asked to be relieved of my duties. I had a great deal of other work of my own to attend to in connection with my land, and so forth, and I could not attend to it while I was occupied with the Assessor's work, so I had to throw up the Assessor work. The Judge used to get £600 a year and a guinea a day allowance, and we were both fully occupied with the Court work. That is why I left the position. 1066. Do I understand you to mean that if the 2s. 6d. had not been knocked off, and if the pay had remained at £1 2s. 6d. a day, you would have remained in the position of Assessor?— No. I had to throw up the position. The Government induced me to accept it again by offering me £1 ss.

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a day. I accepted it at that rate of pay, and remained in the position for about a year, and then I threw it up again and went back to my own work. 1067. Why did you throw up the post when you got 2s. 6d. a day over and above what you originally got?— Because I could do better at my private business than by devoting all my time to the Court. 1068. Is it not because you found that you did not get enough money while occupying the position of Assessor that makes you now so strongly advocate the passing of this Bill, so that you will get a position on the Board which will be better paid than the position of Assessor was ? The Chairman: That is not a question which should be asked. It has nothing to do with the matter which we are considering. Witness : I should like to answer the question. The Chairman : I want no reply to it. I will not allow the question to be put. 1069. Mr. Kaihau.] I thought the question was a proper one to put, but if the Chairman rules that it is not I will withdraw it. I understood you to say that your people, the Ngatiporou, were all loyal subjects of the Queen ?—Yes ; that is entirely so. A certain section of the Ngatiporou people did embrace the Hauhau movement, but they were fought against and taken prisoners, and they were then sworn in as loyal subjects and soldiers of the Queen, and have remained so ever since. In the year 1865 an arch of flags was made, and the people had to go underneath the flags with a Bible in their hands and take the oath of allegiance, and ever since they have remained staunch to their oath. 1070. Are you speaking of 1865 ? —Yes—that is, as regards the section of the Ngatiporou who took up the Hauhau movement; but the Ngatiporou people, generally speaking, have always been loyal under the provisions of the Treaty of Waita,ngi, and still remain so. They have never taken up arms against the Queen. 1071. Have you ever heard of a chief of the Ngatiporou named Eparaima?—Yes; I know of him. He was a relative of my own. He went away to the King movement in the Waikato. 1072. Did you not hear that he supported the movement to set up a king—Potatau or Tawhiao ?—Yes ; I know. He was killed there, fighting for the King. 1073. And yet you said just now that all the Ngatiporou were loyal subjects of the Queen, and here we find many who were not ?—I have already replied to that. I have spoken of a section of the Ngatiporou who embraced the Hauhau movement, and those people who went in that absurd direction, and also in the madness of setting up the King. 1074. Did you never hear that these points were used by a chief of the Ngatiporou: that he could not agree to the Queen's mana being placed over them, and that he gave as an explanation that he could not see how you could yoke an ox and a horse together to make a team of them, because the ox would be certain to horn the horse, and the horse would be certain to kick the ox ? —Yes ; I know of that. The name of the man who used that expression was Hapaira. He went away to these mad proceedings, and he was killed in a battle at Tauranga. But lam not speaking of those men, but about the members of the Ngatiporou who are still alive. 1075. I am bringing out these circumstances because you started off by saying that the Ngatiporou had always remained loyal and constant subjects of the Queen, and I have cited several instances to prove that they had not done so? —What I say is perfectly true. It was only these members of the Ngatiporou Tribe who associated themselves with foolish mad movements, such as the Hauhau and King movements, which got them into trouble. 1076. Then, the Ngatiporou cannot claim to be in any different position from other tribes. There are many other tribes who took no part in the fighting ?—There are _ none of them in the position of the Ngatiporou, who have remained loyal to the Queen in the first instance; and, more than that, they took up arms to enforce the rights of the Queen over the Hauhau people. 1077. I did not ask you that. I only asked you the question to- show that a certain section of the Ngatiporou people did take part in movements which were contrary to the Queen's mana?— Only the madmen who followed the mad ideas which were promulgated in the Waikato. 1078. Is that why you want a Commissioner set up to administer the affairs of your hapu, because there are so many porangi people amongst them?—l am desirous that a measure should be passed which I believe would be for the good of my people ; just the same as yourself. The Commissioner of Crown Lands is trustee for your lands at Opuatia, in the Waikato. 1079. I am not asking you anything about what I do ?—But I am making a reply to your question. 1080. Do I understand you to stigmatize the King movement as foolishness ? —I did not say that the King was a porangi; I said that the Hauhau movement and the movement entered into under the King arrangement were mad ideas. 1081. I should like a note of that to be taken: that the witness does not style the King a porangi or cast any reflections on him. Now, as this Bill is before the House, what is your desire with regard to it: is it that it should be postponed until the next session of Parliament, or that it should be proceeded with forthwith during the present session ?—I want to see the Bill passed now, forthwith, with reference to my own part of the country, and never mind the rest of it. 1082. That is not a direct reply. The Bill as it now stands does not say that it is to apply to your district only, but if it passes nobody's land will be left out of it ?—I ask that this Bill may be brought into operation with reference to the East Coast. I have given my evidence to the Committee in connection with this matter. 1083. As you want one thing, and apparently the Premier wants another, how are yOu going to reconcile your views ? The Premier wants the Bill to apply to the whole of the Island, and you want it for your own particular district; how are you going to arrange that ?—Let this Committee and the House and the Premier agree to the Bill being passed with reference to my district, at any rate, and I think if that is done you will probably support my view. 1084. Yes ; if that is so, I will. But if they do not agree, then all sorts of evil will result from your advocating this Bill.

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Hon. Mr. Carroll: The Bill is optional. The Chairman : Brought in at the request of the Natives. Mr. Kaihau : But all they asked for was that a stop should be put to the sale of lands. Hon. Mr. Carroll: The Bill is optional in this way : that it cannot be brought into force in any district unless the Natives of that district ask for it. Mr. Kaihau: But this Bill debars them from administering their lands in any other way they might wish. That is how I understand it. Hon. Mr. Carroll: It does not repeal any law that may be in force at present. Supposing this Bill becomes law, then the Natives who want it brought into operation in their district have to apply by petition to the Governor to have that done, and if they do not want it in any district, then the laws which are now in force will still operate in that district. 1085. Mr. Kaihau (to witness).] Do you know whether there are many other people of the East Coast tribes who are in support of this Biil besides your own immediate people ?—Yes; numbers of them. 1086. The people of which places ?—Within the boundaries of the East Coast. 1087. Ido not ask you about the boundaries of the East Coast. I want to know what people besides your own within the boundaries of the East Coast are in favour of the Bill. Where are they ?—I thought my reply was a short and concise one to your question, and that you would be satisfied with it, but if you want me to particularise it will take days to do so. 1088. I want you to specify two or three blocks of land the owners of which are supporting this Bill, so as to give us some general idea of the number of thousands of acres contained in those blocks. That will satisfy my question ?—There is one block which I could mention for your information which is called the Ngawaka-a-Kupe Block, and which contains from 28,000 to 30,000 acres. It is Native land in the Wairarapa district. 1089. Has that never been leased ?—No. 1090. Has it never been mortgaged?— No. The law prevents its being dealt with in that way. 1091. Besides that ?—The Tamaki and Tahoraiti Blocks of 57,000 acres, and that is Maori land. 1092. Are those the people who drew up the amendments?— Yes. I have given their amendments to the Clerk of the Committee, and the Committee has them before it. 1093. That is a satisfactory reply to my question. Then, these are lands owned by persons who are in support of the amendments. Where are the people who are in support of the Bill as it stands without the amendments ? —-Within the boundaries of the East Coast, and also some within the boundaries of the West Coast. 1094. Who are they ? —The Patea people and the Wanganui people from Parekino up northwards. They have large areas of land. 1095. Why, there are petitions from all those people objecting to the Bill ?—There are also petitions supporting the Bill. 1096. Do you mean to say that you have petitions supporting the Bill from part of the Wanganui and Taranaki people ? —Yes. I have handed them in to the Committee. The Premier has some. 1097. There may, perhaps, be four or five people who have signed them. By whom were these petitions sent to you from Patea and the country in that neighbourhood ?—From Utiku Potaka. 1098. But that is in Eangitikei ?—Never mind; that belongs to the district. 1099. And that is only one man? —It would take about a week to go into the whole of these matters if you want me to go into particulars. I thought you were only asking me about the heads of the people. 1100. Who are the Wanganui people who have signed this petition ?—Topia Turoa. He is here in Wellington now. 1101. Has he any petition before the House?—lt is in the hands of the Premier. The bulk of the petitions are there. Some came to me and some to the Premier. Turoa's is here. These petitions are in support of the Bill. Those of the Wairarapa and the Wanganui people have been handed in to the Committee. The Taranaki people have a petition here also. 1102. I want to point out to the Chairman that the reason I am asking these questions is that the persons whose names the witness has mentioned sent in petitions originally in support of the amendments for inclusion in the Bill, and when they subsequently discovered that the amendments were not going to be included in the Bill they all signed the petition against the Bill. The Chairman : That is quite a common thing even among Europeans. Witness : Yes ; but they had received the petition long before the amendments were drawn up, so far as that is concerned. The petitions objecting to the Bill were drawn up long before the amendments were drawn up. They were drawn up by two or three people here in Wellington, and sent round the country for signature, and the Premier's idea was that they should be sent before this Committee for the Committee to deal with them. 1103. Mr. Kaihau.] Very well, I have got up to the point I was driving at. Does it not strike you that this Bill is trampling on the Treaty of Waitangi ? —No ; it does not. Yours is the Bill that is opposed to the Treaty of Waitangi. The Chairman ; The witness must not refer to Mr. Kaihau's Bill. Mr. Kaihau : Would the Chairman allow me to ask three questions with regard to my Bill ? The Chairman: No ; I will not allow that Bill to be discussed at all. 1104. Mr. Kaihau (to witness).] You say that this Board Bill as it stands at present is not opposed to the Treaty of Waitangi ? —Not as I understand it. The question of sale and purchase of land is the only thing, as far as I can see, in which the Bill acts contrary to the Treaty of Waitangi. 1105. Do you think that the people of the country would be more in support of this Bill than

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of the Treaty of Waitangi ? —Of course, I and my people are in support of this Bill, and you and other people in other parts of the Island are, I understand, opposed to it; but, if the Bill once passes, my opinion is that when they see how very much it is for their benefit they will avail themselves of the Bill. 1106. How do you know that all the people will come under the Bill when they find it brought into operation ?—I do not say that every one will, but some will—those who wish to make use of their lands. 1107. Do you not know that the bulk of the people now are not agreeable that the Government should assume the control and management of their lands—that what the Maoris want is that each hapu should have the management of their own lands, and to exercise the powers which the Queen assured to them —that they should be put in the same position as European residents in this country who can administer their own affairs ? Do you not know that that is the general wish of the people all over the Island ? —lt may be so that some of them hold that opinion. I am not conversant with their wishes and desires, but my people hold the opinions I have expressed. 1108. Have you not heard of an institution called the kotahitanga ? Are you not aware that they hold views similar to those which I have just expressed ? Have you not heard that those opinions extend from the Ngapuhi right down to the other end of the Island among members of that movement? Do you not know that the people whom you call the King people, in the Waikato, hold a similar opinion ?—I have heard so. In fact, I have myself attended their huis so that I might learn what they were doing; but I saw no satisfactory prospect among the things they were advocating. Therefore I and my people and our lands have kept aloof from that movement. 1109. You say you have kept aloof from that movement; but it seems to me that you have heard that that is the general wish of the principal people in the Island ? —I have replied to that already. 1110. You said " Yes," did you not?— Yes ; I heard so. 1111. Then, the Committee knows that that is the general wish of all the people in the Island? —No; those are certain persons belonging to certain tribes. These people are put on one side, and others are put up sometimes. That is the general practice. 1112. Yes; but that is an endeavour to qualify a previous reply of yours. You have already said that you knew what took place at these meetings, and now you are qualifying that statement. You said that you had visited the huis in the Waikato to see for yourself what had taken place, and you know that that is a powerful tribe, and, now that you realise that you have committed yourself to a statement which is opposed to yours and the Premier's Bill, you are endeavouring to qualify it by saying something else. Hon. Mr. Carroll: Then, how is it that the kotahitanga are supporting the Bill ? Mr. Kaihau : The witness has already said that he no longer belongs to the kotahitanga —that he had held aloof from the movement. Witness : But what about these three thousand people who have signed a petition in support of this Bill? 1113. Mr. Kaihau.] Ido not know. Do you not know that there are over ten thousand people belonging to the kotahitanga who have signed a petition opposing the Bill?—I do not trouble my head about tshose people ; I do not care about those ten thousand people. 1114. But ten thousand is more than three thousand?—We are representing three thousand people who are large owners of land, and this Bill is for us only. The lands of the ten thousand people who have petitioned against the Bill are held under Acts which would exempt their lands from coming under the operation of this Bill. I refer to the Thermal Springs Act and others. There are the Ngatimaniapoto, whose lands are under that Act, and Others. All the Waikato land is confiscated, and they have only little pieces which were returned to them, and which were reserved. 1115. There are blocks of land there which contain as much as 90,000 acres, and there are blocks of 40,000 acres, and there are blocks of 50,000 acres, and there are blocks of 250,000 acres, and there are blocks of 500,000 acres, and there is plenty of land outside of that. Add those to the lands of the Ngapuhi, and to those on the West Coast, and at Taupo, and I think you will find that the East Coast lands are very small in comparison '! —Very well; leave this Bill to be for me. Let your own lands be exempt from its provisions. You have no mana over my lands that you should endeavour to oppose my desire. 1116. Then, the Committee understands that the bulk of the people of the country, holding the bulk of the land in the country, are opposed to the Bill ? —Then, I say if that be so leave them outside, and let me have the Bill for my district. 1117. It is satisfactory that you agree to that? —I say leave your lands outside of the Bill, but let me have it. Do not get annoyed and make little of the Bill, and cast reflections upon it, so that I shall not enjoy its benefits. 1118. I think this will be a good place to break off my questions, because I have at last got a definite reply that the bulk of the people of the country, owning the bulk of the land, are opposed to the Bill: that is what you acknowledge ?—I did not say so. I shall keep your lands and the lands of the people who are opposed to the Bill outside its provisions. You know what quantity of land you have got. Ido not want anything to do with it. You will not give me any of it, and it is only in my own land that I am interested. 1119. Mr. Stevens.] Are you not supporting this Bill under the belief that it will be for the benefit of the Natives generally?— Yes; and if it is found when the measure is brought into force that any parts of it are not satisfactory they can be amended. 1120. You have said that there are five million acres of Native land still left unsold which have been awarded to certain individual people : is that not so ? —Yes. 1121. Then, if the land has been awarded to these individual Natives, although not subdivided

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on the grant, but their proportionate shares ascertained, can you tell me any reason why these people are unable to conduct their own business in the matter of leasing their lands ?—lt is not that they are incompetent to manage their own affairs, but they are unable to obtain proper rents for their lands, the reason being that all the persons are not of the same mind. Some of them want to lease and some do not. Some of them run after one pakeha and some after another. It is such an undertaking to obtain the signatures to the lease of Maori lands held in the ordinary way that the lessee cannot give a reasonable amount of rent for the land. He has to consider when he is arranging to rent land the amount of expense he will be put to in negotiating the lease. He has in the first instance to pay an agent, and other expenses, in obtaining the signature of every individual owner of the land. 1122. Could not that be overcome by the individualisation of ail Native titles ?—Yes; but then that would only be advisable in the case of blocks of land which were held by few owners in large areas. 1123. Why so ? Can you give any reason why it should not apply to small areas ?—lt would be no good in the case of blocks of land held by so many owners, and in which each owner's interest was only very small. The value of the land would be swallowed up in the payment for surveys, Court fees, and so forth. 1124. Is that the case with blocks of land which the Government purchased from Native owners and cut up into small areas of an acre or two, and so on ? Is the value of the land swallowed up in those cases ?—lt is the Government who cut them up themselves at their own expense. 1125. But the Government has done so, and cut blocks up into fifty or sixty pieces?— That is satisfactory. You see the Government surveys the land at its own expense. 1126. But each block of land has to pay for its own expenses ; they do not get the money elsewhere. If you can do that with respect to European lands, why should you not do it with respect to Maori lands also if they were individualised ?—My objection to applying that principle to Maori lands which are owned by many owners is that when each person's piece is cut out the cost of the surveys is more than the land would bear. 1127. Does it cost more to survey a piece of land because it belongs to a Maori than it does when it is acquired by the Government? —Yes. With Government lands which are cut up in that way an immediate return is achieved when the land is settled, but when Maori land is divided among new owners the original owners have to pay the cost of the surveys. 1128. But, if Maori owners had their individual titles, would there not be a greater incentive to them to cultivate the land and build houses on it and put up fences ?—That is so ; but if you are going to make that a hard-and-fast rule among Maoris there will be great hardship in some cases. 1129. How are you going to overcome that hardship by the establishment of the Board of which we have heard so much ?—ln this way : that in blocks of land such as we have been speaking of where there are many owners those owners will appoint a block committee, chosen from among themselves, and it will be for that committee to deal with the land, to lease it, and to turn it to account. The owners would instruct the committee, the committee would instruct the Board, and the Board would carry out the wishes of the people in respect to leasing the land. No sales would be permitted. 1130. Then, I presume that each owner in the land who wished to erect a house for himself must get the permission of the committee? —No; that is different. That is a question directly referring to such parts of the land as would be retained for kaingas and residences for the people themselves. 1131. In the event of a person wanting to grow sheep or wheat or potatoes, would he have to obtain the permission of the Board before he could do anything ?—No. The land would be divided in this way : that a certain portion would be set apart for the use and occupation of the Native owners. 1132. Is that use and occupation to be in common, or is it to be individualised occupation ?— They would all live in common in the pa or kainga if a part of the land had been set apart for such residence, but each person would have his own cultivation, and such parts as they were desirous of working in sheep-farming and so forth the committee would arrange for. 1133. Would it not be necessary, in order that the people should be properly protected against this committee, that they should form themselves into a joint-stock company of which the committee would be directors and managers, because I do not think the committees would be any better than the Assessors who were spoken of here ?—Those were absurd statements which were made about the Assessors. The committee would be the best institution to have the management of their affairs, because they would not require to be paid. Of course, the individuals who were selected by them to be managers and so forth would have to be paid. 1134. Do you remember the Act of 1883, which gave the Maoris power to set up committees in this country ?—Yes. 1135. Do you think those committees attempted to do any good?—-I saw them working, but they were unable to carry anything out. They had no mana. Anything the committee decided upon and submitted to the Court the Court took no notice of, and so they found they had no mana. 1136. Was their failure not more due to the indolence of the committees themselves ? They began working very assiduously for a month or so, and then they got tired of it, like a child of a toy?— Some of the committee may have done that, but I am speaking, of course, of my own district. There we had many matters which the committee decided upon as the result of their deliberations; but when they brought these matters before the Court the Court would take no notice of them. Therefore what was the object of the committee doing anything more. In my district the people manage their own affairs now. 1137. Do you rememher the committees which were set up in Hawke's Bay, one of them

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presided over by Henry Tomoana and the other presided over by Henry Koura ?—I have heard of them. 1138. Is it not a fact that the very men who were contesting with their neighbours about the land were committee-men ? —Perhaps so. 1139. All the committee-men had a personal interest in the land about which they were adjudicating ?—Of course, if that was so they could not come to a satisfactory finding. 1140. Is not that one of the great reasons why the Court would not adopt the proposals of the committee ?—No. The committee were empowered to make applications for surveys, and to send in applications for costs. 1141. Were they not also empowered to investigate?— Yes. They were also empowered to deal with questions of survey, and to make applications for sittings of the Court, but the Court would take no notice of their applications. Another provision was that, if an application for the hearing of a piece of land was made, both sides had to sign the application, and so signify their agreement in it. If the committee called upon a section of the people to attend they would not go, and the committee could not make them, and they would go to the Court. 1142. That would be an application for investigation by the committee ?—Yes. 1143. Therefore when the Natives had a choice between the committee and the Court they preferred the Court?— Yes ; but there is a reason for that. They knew that they could not go to the committee and tell the stories which they could tell in Court, because they knew they would be bowled out in their lying. They therefore preferred the Court to the committee. 1144. Did they all prefer the Court to the committee ?—Some of them did. As the committee had no mana, then the Court was the only place in which they could do business. 1145. If the Board were set up do you think that those persons who went to the Court because they were afraid that they would he found out by the committee in their falsehoods would tell the truth before the Board ?—What I say is this : Nothing will be done by the Board except on the recommendation of the committee, and everything will be done by the committee before it is submitted to the Board ; and no persons can tell lies before the committee, for everybody there who is listening would know whether it was truth or falsehood, and would say so. In the Native Land Court no one can speak unless it is a person who has a case before the Court, and who has a judicial standing. 1146. Or as a witness ?—Yes.

Thursday, 27th October, 1898. Mr. Paratene Ngata in attendance : examination continued. 1147. The Chairman.] You stated in your evidence when examined by Mr. Carroll that you were in favour of subdividing blocks of first-class land, and giving to each individual owner a title to the portion cut off for him : is not that so ? —-Yes ; I said that those were lands in which that might be done with advantage. 1148. Are you aware of the conditions which are imposed upon settlers by the Government when they take up land ? —Yes. 1149. Do you know that there are two principal conditions imposed upon settlers who take up land from the Government—residence and cultivation ? —I have seen that it is so. 1150. Do you understand exactly what that means ? —lt means that the person who takes up those lands has to fulfil the conditions; that he has to improve a certain area of the land, and that he has to build a house of a certain description before he gets the land absolutely as his own. If he does not fulfil those conditions the land is taken from him. 1151. And when the conditions are all carried out the Government secures to that person the sole right to have the land for himself and his family ?—Yes. 1152. In the case of the committees of which you speak as subdividing these blocks of firstclass land, would you be prepared, if such a thing came about, to impose the same conditions upon the Natives who took up these sections of land ? —No; because the land is their own. The sections which would be cut off for them would be out of their own land. 1153. Would you not impose any conditions upon the Maoris who took up these sections of land?— No. If that were required of them an injury might be done to them, because it would mean that if they did not fulfil certain conditions the land would be taken from them. What I think is that the land should be divided and each man should have his own portion, so that he could work for himself and support himself and his family, instead of one man living on another, as is very often the case now with lazy men who will not work for themselves. All men would then have to work. 1154. If you do not impose a condition of cultivation, surely it only encourages this communism and laziness on the part of the Maoris ?—ldleness would be prevented by bringing in such a rule as this: that men of energy should be debarred from feeding men of idle habits who will do nothing. That might induce the lazy men to work. 1155. But it is this communism among the Maoris which encourages idleness, and their own hospitality does nothing to prevent it. They keep idle Maoris, no matter how lazy they may be, through their own spirit of generosity ?—Yes ; that generosity of the Maoris is certainly to blame for encouraging idleness. In the case of Europeans it is different. In their case thousands of people are crowded together in towns, and that is what forces them to work. They do not give their food indiscriminately to everybody. 1156. I am very much afraid that if you do not impose conditions of cultivation as well as of residence this state of things will continue to exist ? —That is why I ask that power should be given to the committee to commence to operate as may seem to be best for the Maoris. That would be one of the matters which they would have to take into consideration, with a view to stamping out this ill-advised generosity and encouragement of idleness.

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1157. Then, you would be in favour of imposing some condition of that kind if the committees had power to subdivide these blocks of first-class land ?—Yes ; that would be for the committee to arrange. 1158. My reason for putting these questions to you is that I have seen in different settlements in my district probably three-fourths of the Natives doing no work, and the other fourth doing all the work and keeping those three-fourths in idleness ?—Yes ; I am afraid that is universal. 1159. If you could devise any scheme by which such a state of things as that could be put a stop to you would be a benefactor to your race. You said that you cultivated your own land : how much do you cultivate?—A lot of land. lam in this position : that I belong to many hapus, and have an interest in the lands of each. I think I have about five blocks of land in hand now. lam working five interests, but not altogether on my own account. lam working on behalf of myself and of the various hapus who own the land. The committee of each hapu manages its own affairs. 1160. How much first-class land do you think would be sufficient for a man to support himself and his wife and family of perhaps four or five—land used for agricultural purposes ?—You mean apart from sheep-farming ? 1161. Yes; agricultural farming—of course, it would depend upon the position of the land?—■ If you mean a sufficient area to cultivate food for their support year after year, from 25 to 50 acres would be sufficient. The reason why I mention such a large area is because they would work one piece of land this year, and when the strength had departed from that piece they would cultivate another piece next year, and so on. That is for one man and his family. 1162. Quite so; but I mean that there should be sufficient land not only to provide for the daily wants of himself and family, but that he should be able to save up in case of sickness—to use an English expression, he should be able to provide for a rainy day. Ido not think the area you mention would be sufficient for that?—l am merely referring to cultivation. lam not taking into the estimate the land necessary to keep a horse or a cow or anything like that. That would, of course, take more. 1163. If these Maori committees are set up and subdivide this first-class land, would you be prepared to support a measure before your committee that when a person took up a section for himself and his wife and family, whether it be 50 or 100 acres or 200 acres, he should at once take advantage of it—that he shall cultivate it and adopt such measures as will make him ultimately independent? In other words, would you say to him, " You must work out your own livelihood yourself; you must not hope that you will be able to depend upon other Maoris for assistance in future "? Would you be prepared to make such a provision as that?— Yes; that is what I want to see accomplished. 1164. I may tell you that, if you can devise measures which will bring about such a state of things as that, as long as I have a position here I will assist you or any other Maori who tries to carry that out ?—I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will do my best, with your promised assistance, to impress upon my fellow Maoris the necessity for such a step as that. Mr. Henaee Parata makes a statement, and is examined. Witness : Greetings to the Chairman and the honourable members of the Committee. The first statement I wish to make is this : that I agree entirely with the first provision in the Bill. It is to the effect that all further sales of land shall be put a stop to, either to the Crown or to private European purchasers; but the placing of the management and administration of the lands in the hands of a Board I cannot see my way to agree to. In the first place, if this Board is constituted it will not abolish the Native Land Court, as I understand the Bill, because it means this : that in a district where a majority of the owners of land are desirous that the Board be constituted to deal with their lands the Board will administer them, but where the majority of the owners are not so desirous the Native Land Court will still continue to act. I may illustrate the difficulty of carrying out such a system in this way : If in the event of a majority of the owners of land in the Wairarapa desiring that a Board should be constituted there it would be constituted; and if the Hawke's Bay District did not fall in with that idea, then the Native Land Court would still continue to sit there. Therefore we may have districts alternating in which in one case the Native Land Court is doing the business and in the other the Board, according as to whether the owners in each district are for or against the constitution of the Board. So I must say to the Committee that I cannot help arguing chat if such a proceeding were entered into the Maoris must suffer much greater evil than they now do, because there would be two fires burning instead of one, and we all know that if we light a candle at both ends it will burn quicker than if we only light it at one end. Again, my opinion is this : that even if the Native Land Court were abolished and a Board substituted in its place, the Natives would suffer more grievously than they do now under the administration of the Native Land Court. The Native Land Court, as it is at present administered, comprises nine Judges —that is to say, eight Judges and a Chief Judge, who makes the ninth. Now, for the sake of argument, I will assume that the nine Judges receive an average salary of £400 a year; that makes a total of £3,600. The Chief Judge, with a salary of £800 a year, would bring the. total up to £4,400 a year for the salaries of the nine Judges. Ido not propose to say anything about the offices of the Native Land Court, and its officers, interpreters, and so forth. I do not know for certain, but I am told that it takes about £20,000 a year to run the Native Land Court in all the various branches of its departments—its Judges, officers, offices, and so forth. That is the position of the Native Land Court now. According to the explanation given by the interpreters, both in the House of Eepresentatives and at meetings outside, of the statements made by the Premier and Mr. Carroll the proposition made was that this Island should be divided into six districts, and there were to be five members of each district to compose the Board. That is what the Bill says : that there should be five members of each district to compose the Board for that district. I say there should be seven, and I will tell the Committee why I say it. -In the' 12—1. 3a.

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first place, the Commissioner of Crown Lands in each district is to be the Chairman of the Board for that district. The Commissioner of Crown Lands is not a Maori scholar, and therefore it would be necessary to appoint an interpreter for each district. That would mean six interpreters. Besides that a clerk would be required for each district, which would make seven officers who would have to be appointed for each district. If the Island is divided into six districts, and a Board is constituted within each district consisting of seven members, that will mean forty-two officers who will have to be paid. I have pointed out that the Judges of the Native Land Court get an average salary of £400 a year each. I will reduce that average salary to, say, £300, as the average of the salaries to be paid to the officials appointed under the new system. £300 a year to each of the forty-two officers who will have to be appointed will bring the total of the salaries to be paid up to £12,600 a year. I therefore contend that if this Board is constituted as proposed under this Bill the Maoris will be called upon to suffer greater evils than they do now, and that they will have to bear a greater burden of expense than they have at present under the Native Land Court. Another provision under the Bill which I cannot think right is that the Maori owners of a block of land are to construct a road, pay for it, and maintain it. The provisions in respect to that are to be found in sections 32 to 34 of the Bill. Now, supposing there is land which is not first-class. Previous witnesses have given evidence as to the fact that the bulk of the first-class land has passed away from the Maoris into the hands of the Government and private individuals. I will not pick out the very worst class of land to illustrate my argument, but I will say second-class land. We will say that a block of land contains 10,000 or 12,000 acres, and that a road five miles long is constructed through it. We will also say that somewhere along that five miles of road running through the property there is a river which requires to be bridged. Supposing that river is one of ordinary size, something like the Hutt Eiver, or even smaller than that; lam afraid it would take £3,000 to £4,000 to bridge that river. Now, the land is poor land. I think the cost of survey and construction of the road, irrespective of its maintenance after it has been made, would be on an average about £4 a chain. I say that because the land, being only second-class, would be poor and broken, and probably a good deal of cutting would have to be done; and then it has to be fenced to keep the cattle off. Therefore I think that £4 a chain is rather a low estimate to make. 1165. The Chairman.] The fencing of the road would not be a charge against the road, but against the individual owners alongside ?—-Very well; I will leave the fencing out of my calculation, and then I think that £4 a chain is a low estimate. Now, if the road is five miles long it would cost £1,600 to make that road irrespective of the bridge, which we will put down at £3,000, or a total of £4,600. Then, outside that the Bill goes on to say that the Maoris must maintain the road. That is to say, that if a flood should come and wash away the road the Maoris would have to reconstruct it, as they have to keep it in repair. The Board, having to carry out these works, has to mortgage the land to the Government like other persons. We will say that there are ten owners in this block of 10,000 acres, and they alone have to pay for the survey of the road, and the construction of the road, and for its subsequent maintenance. We will say that there is Maori land here, and adjoining that there is Government land, and land belonging to a private European. Then, the ten persons who are the owners of the Maori land will have to pay the whole of the expenses of surveying a road, constructing a road, and maintaining a road which will be for the benefit of persons who do not contribute a single " copper " towards it. 1166. Will not the European settlers have to pay their share, as they have to do at the present time ? —The Bill does not say so. That is why we inserted that clause in the petition. 1167. It does not say anything about European land adjoining Maori land there?— That is so ; but laws have already been made dealing with that matter. The Bill certainly says that the maintenance of the road will be expected from these people, while the money for the maintenance of European roads comes out of the consolidated revenue. I think that the most effective way of administering Maori lands in the future, for the benefit both of the Maoris themselves and of the colony at large, would be to set up district committees, not of the kind that Mr. Paratene suggested, to supersede the Native Land Court and the Board idea when once the Native lands are reserved. This committee should be composed of four members, and the chairman should be one of the Judges of the Native Land Court, who is an expert in regard to Maori land and matters of Maori custom and usage. The four members of the committee should be aboriginal natives. The reason why I make this suggestion is that the Commissioner of Crown Lands, whom it is now proposed to make Chairman of the Board, is not, perhaps, an expert in Maori matters, and cannot speak Maori. I believe it would take nine or ten years for him to learn sufficient about Maori customs and usages to enable him to administer Maori lands properly; there are so many different descriptions of Maori title and Maori customs in connection with land. There is occupation for one thing, and there is gift for another, and there is conquest for another, and there are many other kinds of claims. How could the Commissioner of Crown Lands know anything about all these claims until he had served an apprenticeship of ten or twelve years perhaps? He could not be expected to know them all. But if one of the Maori-speaking Judges of the Native Land Court were appointed he would know all these things. And, more than that, if* a Maori-speaking Judge were appointed it would not be necessary that an interpreter should be appointed. The Judge only should receive a salary ; that is to say, the Judge only would receive a yearly salary, and the members of the committee would only be paid for the time during which they were transacting the business in which they were engaged. As I understand this Board Bill it means that, whether the members of the Board are working or idle, their pay will go on all the same ; and that will be another burden thrown on the Maori people. We will suppose that this committee which I suggest is constituted, and has to sit at Greytown, but it is called away in the exercise of its duties to sit at some other place, then its members ought to be given their railwayfares and the cost of their travelling. 1168. I think you are condemning your own principle. It is not managing your own affairs if

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you ask some one else to pay the cost of doing it. Who is to pay the railway-fares?— The Government, no doubt. The Government pay for the Judges and the other Native Land Court officers. 1169. Do you ask that the Government should pay the railway-fares of the members of your committee ?—Yes ; but I think the Chairman is misitaken in saying that I ever contended that the Maoris should have the absolute control and administration of their affairs. This is my contention : I do not advocate that the Maoris should be given the absolute control of their affairs in all parts of the Island, because Ido not think the time is ripe for carrying out that idea. What I say is that the majority of the committee which I propose should be given authority, and the Judge, who should be appointed Chairman, should be in the position of their instructor or tutor in these matters. The committee should be given power to perform all necessary transactions in the matter of leases and so forth; but do not empower the committee to make secret leases of somebody else's land. If it is desired to lease the property of any person that lease should be negotiated publicly, either by auction or by tender. As I know the Chairman is desirous that this matter should be as little delayed as possible, I propose to conclude my remarks here, and I hope I have not unnecessarily gone over any ground that has been touched upon by previous speakers. 1170. Who is to draw up the rules and regulations for guidance of these committees ?— Parliament. 1171. If the regulations drawn up by Parliament are not satisfactory to the Natives, what then ? —Let the Government and the Natives meet and consult together, and frame a set of proper regulations. The Government and the Maori being in the position of father and son, it is only right that they should consult together and mutually agree upon a line of action. 1172. But you must take the other side of the question. Supposing the suggestions made by the Natives are not acceptable to Parliament, what then ?—I think that might be met in this way : If the Maoris were to set to now and frame a series of regulations and rules and send their delegates and representatives here during the recess to visit the Premier, and submit their resolutions to him, and talk the matter over with him, they would suggest something, and he would suggest something, and I have no doubt the matter could be satisfactorily arranged in that way. Then, when the next session of Parliament came round there would be no .trouble it submitting those suggestions to the House. 1173. Then, all the Natives must be unanimous in framing these regulations to be submitted to Parliament? —The majority of them ; the same as in Parliament. Europeans are not always of the same opinion. There are always a majority and a minority, and the majority get their way, and the minority have to take what they can get. 1174. Supposing a considerable minority of the Natives disagree with what is submitted to Parliament, what then ? —I think, if the majority of the owners in any large district were unanimous in their desire that some such scheme as this which is outlined should be introduced, and they could carry it out for their own benefit without injuring the Natives in another part of the colony, there should be no objection to that. 1175. That is your opinion, but we have had Natives giving evidence before us who have expressed a different opinion? —Yes; that is so. 1176. Are you enunciating a policy before the Committee which you think would be for the benefit of the Natives all over the country ? —I think so. 1177. Would you be prepared, at a meeting of the Natives called together to consider this question, to modify your views in order to fall in with the views of some other Natives?— Yes. If I saw any suggestion made which I thought would be an improvement on the suggestions I have made I would certainly agree to them. 1178. That is a principle on which Europeans have to act sometimes—what they call the "give-and-take" principle? —Yes; I know there are always two sides to a question, and if both sides go with a hard-and-fast object in view, and neither will give way, then nothing will be accomplished. 1179. That is what I wanted to know: whether you are so wedded to your own idea as not to be willing to consider the other ideas which have been expressed before the Committee ?—No, I am not. Mr. Tamahau Mahupuku in attendance, and makes a statement. Witness : I belong to the Wairarapa. lam in support of the Native Minister's Bill. He has said that he is the father of the Maori people in both of the Islands, and I do not believe that he would ever introduce a measure which would be detrimental to the interests of his Maori children, as has been alleged by some of the witnesses who have spoken to this Committee. I have here in my hand a copy of the address made by the Premier at the meeting at Papawai on the 26th June, 1898, which has been translated into Maori, and printed and circulated among the Maori people of the country. My opinion is this : that it is through my aroha to the Maori people that I am supporting this Bill, which I believe will be for the benefit of the Maori people all over the Island. Ido not know what is the matter with this Bill—what evil can arise from it, as it has never been proved. My people have never been prejudicially affected by laws which have been passed by this House, and I think the same remark applies to all other tribes in the Island. I think that the cause of all the trouble which has affected the various tribes in New Zealand from time to time is that they hold out their own hands for it. They have got the money from the sale of their lands into their hands, and then spent it, and when it has gone they have cried for it. Now, my people for years past have been leasing Crown lands from the Government, lands which were their own originally, but which were sold by their matuas, simply in that manner, by holding out their hands. Seven thousand acres have come back in that manner —that is, it is leased by the young people in my district; and I think if all the people in other parts of the country were to practise a similar course it would be a good thing. That is why I should like to see this Board constituted, to educate and instruct the

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Maoris in these things. My opinion about us Maoris, and I include myself in the assertion, is that we are all of us all over the country nothing but children. We are nothing else yet, and I refer to myself particularly in saying so. This is the commencement of our education, this great and important Bill, which was taken round the country, and laid before the various huis, first at Waipatu. The Maoris did not know what would be a proper measure for their benefit. There was an Act introduced into this House some time ago for the benefit of the Maoris, and what did they do ? It was for the benefit of both races, but the Maoris used their best endeavours to prevent its passing. This was a law relating to roads, and what did the Maoris do? They were up in arms all over the country, and they said "No; we will prevent these roads going through Maori lands; we shall be ruined if it is done." Now, the Europeans know that roads are a necessity, and that roads would be for the good and not for the evil of the Maoris. Well, in spite of the Maoris, bridges and roads have been made, and when they are completed experience teaches the Maoris that they were wrong, and they say at last, " Oh, a road is a good thing after all." Then comes the next thing—the telegraph-lines. There was very nearly fighting in this Island over the erection of the first telegraph-line. Certain people who now call them a blessing got up at that time and said, " If this is permitted the Maoris will be destroyed, and their lands will be destroyed, and everything will be ruined if this tele-graph-line is to be erected." I myself, personally, was one of those who were most strenuous in opposing anything of the kind. However, the pakeha, who knew more, persisted in carrying out his intention, and he made these things. He knew it would be for the ultimate benefit of both races and he did it. When the line was erected, and it was an accomplished fact, then the Maoris at last said, "After all, this telegraph-line is a desirable thing to have." After that came the question of the construction of railways. There were certain men of professed knowledge then who said that if these lines were permitted to be constructed it would mean that the Government would seize twenty miles in width on each side of the railway, and therefore it was incumbent on the Maoris to prevent the construction of the railway —that the Maoris would be ruined, and their lands taken from them, and so forth. I was one of those who supported those ideas. However, the railway was made, and when it was finished by the Europeans, who knew that it would be for the benefit of both races, we have only to look round and see that there is no objection made to it by any one. Then, after that came the question of schools. The Maoris would not have anything to do with schools. Oh, no ; they must be prevented at all costs, because they would sap the mana of the Maori and destroy everything. But the pakehas knew that it would be for the benefit of both races that there should be schools, and they forced the matter on in spite of the resistance of the Maoris, and now we see there are schools all over the country doing good work. All these benefits have been conferred upon the Maori people against their will by the Europeans without the assistance of any Maori members. There were no Maori members on the committees who dealt with these matters, and no witnesses such as we have heard here. Now, as to what I have said just now, that I am a man who has a great affection for the Maori people, I wish to see the young Maori people -given instruction in technical education so that they can make use of their hands. I mean that kind of education as distinct from school education. Therefore I say that I and my people should support this Board Bill, and let this House amend it as may be necessary, and I think it should be for the whole of the Island, and for the tribes in all parts of the Island, who are crying out against their misfortunes. I believe there are ten thousand persons appearing before the House through the medium of petitions, and opposing the Bill. Then, I say, let the Bill pass for the East Coast. I will point out to the Committee that there was a good measure passed in 1840, called the Treaty of Waitangi. That was agreed to first by only twenty-five persons, whose names are to be found signed to that document, and it was not until the expiration of two years from that time that five hundred persons signed it. That treaty was opposed by all the tribes in the Island, and not one of them believed that it would result in benefit to the Maori people; but if we look around us now we shall see that all the tribes all over the Island are lauding the Treaty of Waitangi, and saying what a good measure it is. That is what I say with regard to this Bill—that it should be passed as far as the East Coast is concerned; and any other persons who are not desirous of coming under its provisions now, let them sit still and look on, and see how the Bill works, and I have no doubt that we shall eventually see the whole of the forty thousand Maori people left embracing it. lam quite certain, as I understand this Bill of the Native Minister, that if any misfortune should arise under it when it comes to be administered, the House is quite handy and convenient, and is the proper place to which to come to get that redressed. If I go into a bootmaker's shop, and he makes me a pair of boots, I put the boots on and Igo away; but before I have gone very far I find a nail in my boot sticking into my foot. What do Ido ? I go back to that bootmaker and say, " Look here, here is a nail sticking out of the boot which you made for me." And what does he do. He takes the boot and his hammer and tools and knocks the nail out. What I want is to see the Maori people living in a proper, clear, and satisfactory manner, such as is outlined by this Board Bill. Ido not now agree to any other proposal than this, because I can recognise that you, the European people, are the ma'tuas of us, the Maori people. I have no land of my own, but if this Bill had been passed long ago I still should have had. The Board who would have assumed the control and management of my land would have divided it, and leased it, and so on, and I should now be receiving a rent of 7s. or Bs. an acre for it. This is what I think would insure the prosperity of the Maori people ; if the Board was once given the management of matters in that way it would act for the benefit of the people, whereas I, being ignorant and a child in the management of such matters, went and leased my land for 2s. and 3s. an acre. A part of this same land, which I say through my ignorance and childishness I leased at 2s. and 3s. an acre, is the property of one of our young children, for whom the Public Trustee is trustee. He divided that estate into three partitions, and he leased those three partitions for sums varying from 9s. 3d. an acre to Bs. in the next instance and 6s. in the case of the last partition.

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Now, what has been done in the ease of that young boy might have been done in my case if my lands had been administered by some one who knew something about it. I say that if this Board had been constituted at that time, and if it had the control of my lands, «,nd it was notified abroad that those lands were going to be put up to auction for lease, we should have had the pakehas rushing up from Wellington and other places, and they would have been competing against each other, and would have run the lease up, and I should have got a grand price for everything. That being so, I would just ask the Committee to look at the matter from a broad point of view ; look at me; look at my childishness, and ignorance, and foolishness ; look at what might have been, but was not; look at the people generally, with their land lying idle and nothing for them to do but to talk of this "home rule," or whatever they call it. I am in support of Paratene's statement; let us try and arrive at something which will be for the ultimate benefit of the Maori people, even though we who have appeared before the Committee may have been divided into two sections —one for the Government and one for the Opposition. Take the matter out of our hands, and act towards us as a father would act towards his son.

Friday, 28th October, 1898. Mr. Tamahau Mahupuku continues his statement, and is examined. Witness: I have explained the position of the Maori people in New Zealand. In the year 1886 an Act was passed by this House at the time that Mr. Ballance was Native Minister and Wi Pere represented the Eastern Maori constituency. That was an Act to reserve the Maori lands. When the Maoris saw that Act they all cried out against it. There were said to be then 15,000,000 acres of land owned by the Maoris. In the year 1887 Mr. Carroll was returned to the House' to represent the Eastern Maori electorate, and he, considering the cry which had gone up from the Maoris in all parts of the Island, introduced a short Bill which was to put the Maoris on the same footing as Europeans. When the Maoris found this out they cried out louder than ever, and said the country would go to pieces altogether. In the year 1888 the House dealt with a petition objecting to the Act which had been passed in 1886, and it was repealed, and the short Bill introduced by Mr. Carroll was not passed by the House; and the people have been crying out from that time up to the present. This hears out what I said yesterday : that the Maoris never agree to anything until some measure is put into practice and they see for themselves the benefits which will accrue from its operation. Then, for the first time they will appreciate it. As the time of the Committee is, I believe, occupied with other business, and I do not wish to delay it more than is actually necessary, I shall conclude my remarks by saying that I hope this Bill will be passed with reference to the East Coast and such portions of the West Coast district the people of which have supported the Bill. 1180. The Chairman.] Are you in favour of getting the amendments made by the meeting at Papawai inserted in the Bill?— Yes. 1181. But in case they are not inserted, would you take the Bill without them ?—Well, if the House will not accept those amendments —and I see no reason why they should not —I will hope that it will amend the Bill in such a way that it will be for the best benefit of the Maoris. I am willing to accept the Bill. I have already explained that if I find a nail in my boot I will bring it back to the House—which I have described as a bootmaker—who will mend the boot and drive that nail down so that it will no longer gall me.

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APPENDICES.

APPENDIX A. Bt. Hon. B. J. Seddon, NATIVE LANDS SETTLEMENT AND ADMINISTRATION.

ANALYSIS. Title. 25. Register to be conclusive evidence. Preamble. 1. Short Title. Application of Income. 2. Act divided into Parts. 26. Application of rentals and other income. 27. Payments to be made half-yearly. PART I. 28. Native owner not to dispose of interests except PRELIMINARY, hy will. Interpretation and Scope of Act. 29 ' Nati y? owner's interests not to be seized or 3 Infc t f .' -o , " r 'P i T .. 30. Native owners may give discharges for income. 4. References to Native owners. oia ■ 4 * ± ■ 5 Wherein Part II to annlv 81, A PP omtment of P erson to receive moneys o. wHerein 1 art 11. to apply. payable to Native owner under disability. Districts and Boards. Application of moneys so received. 6. Native land districts may be established. 7. Native Land Boards. Members thereof. Advances. 8. Salaries and travelling-allowances. 32 . Minister may make advances to Board for 9. Provisions as to members other than Com- constructing roads or making surveys. missioner. Term of office. Vacancies. 33. Advances may be made to discharge encum- „„ „ Elections. brances on Native land. 10. Procedure at meetings of Board. Adoption of Act. Repayment of Advances with Interest thereon. 11. Act to be adopted on request of Native owners. 34 - Mode of repayment of advances and interest 12. Petition to Governor to declare Act adopted. thereon. Objection. Poll of Native owners. Gover- Debentures. nor to notify if Act adopted or not. 35 Colonial Treasurer may raise mon ey. p. -pm tt Authority to lend money. 36. Debentures may be issued. Provisions as to ADMINISTRATION OF NATIVE LANDS IN NATIVE debentures. LAND DISTRICTS WHEREIN THIS ACT HAS BEEN duly adopted. Completion of Dealings pending. Vesting. 37, Purchases for Queen may be completed. 13. All Native lands vested in Native Land Board. 38. Completion of lawful private dealings. 14. District Land Registrar to record title of 39. Investment of proceeds hereunder. Board. 15. No contribution to Assurance Fund. Accounts and Audit. Disposition. Native Land Fund Account. ~ t, ~ , , n , ', . .. 41. Where account to be kept. 16. Board to lease lands vested in it. , 0 ~„ „„ i.v,„„„i„ j„„_„j\,„vi:_ „,„ ,„ 1 „ T , f * v ij *"■ Moneys therein deemed public moneys. U. itanas not co De sola. 43. Full accounts to be kept and copies furnished 18. Special powers of Board as to administration . Audit , n j, ° a . s l , , , . ... , . 44. Lands not to be subject to higher rate or tax 19. Power to take land for public work or for than tto wh j l oh th % ele iousl public purposes. lible op j20. Restrictions in respect of land removed. 21. Board to have powers of Native Land Court. Miscellaneous. Register. 45. Returns to be laid before Parliament. 22. Register of lands vested in Board. 46. Regulations. 23. Inspection of register. Changes of ownership 47. Acts subject to which this Aot to be conto be recorded. strued. 24. Accuracy of entries in register to be certified 48. Exemption to Native owner to administer his half-yearly. Native Land Court to be cer- land. tifying authority. Jurisdiction of such 49. Modification of other Acts. authority. Schedule.

A BILL INTITULED An Act to provide for the Settlement and Administration of Title. Native Lands. WHEREAS during the Diamond Jubilee year of the reign of Her Preamble, 5 Majesty Queen Victoria, the Chiefs and other leading Natives of New No. 49—1,

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Zealand, by petition to Her Majesty and to the Earliament of New Zealand, urged that the residue (about five million acres), of the Native land now remaining in possession of the Native owners should be reserved for their use and benefit in such wise as to protect them from the risk of being left landless : And whereas in commemoration 5 of the beneficent reign of Her Majesty, and in testimony of Her kindly care for the wishes and welfare of Her Native subjects in New Zealand, it is expedient to give effect to the aforesaid petition, and to provide for the better administration of their lands in manner hereinafter provided: 10 Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly of New Zealand in Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:— 1. The Short Title of this Act is " The N ative Lands Settlement and Administration Act, 1898," and it shall be administered under 15 the control of the Minister of Native Affairs, who shall, however, confer with the Minister of, Lands on all matters relating to the leasing or surveying of lands under this Act. 2. This Act is divided into two Parts, to wit:— Part I. Preliminary—Sections three to twelve. 20 Part 11. Administration of Native Lands in Native Land Districts wherein this Act has been duly adopted— Sections thirteen to forty-seven. PAET I. PRELIMINARY. 25 Interpretation and Scope of Act. 3. In this Act, if not inconsistent with the context, — " Board " means a Native Land Board under this Act: " District" means a Native land district under this Act: " European " means any person other than a Native : 30 " Minister " means the Minister of Native Affairs : "Native" means an aboriginal native of New Zealand, and includes half-castes and their descendants : " Native lands " means land owned by Natives under their customs and usages, whether the title thereto has or has 35 not been ascertained by the Native Land Court or any other duly constituted authority, and includes land owned in fee-simple by Natives under any instrument of title; but does not include— (a.) Land which, although owned by a Native, has 40 been acquired in fee-simple by purchase from the Crown or a European ; nor (b.) Land which is subject to or administered under the provisions of any of the following Acts, that is to say, — 45 " The Thermal-springs Districts Act, 1881," " The Westland and Nelson Native Reserves Act, 1887,"

Short Title,

Act divided into Parts.

Interpretation

IMS

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Native Lands Settlement and Administration. 3

" The West Coast Settlement Reserves Act, J 892," " The Native Townships Act, 1895," and " The Urewera District Native Reserve \ot, 1896 " : " Native owner " means the Native who is the owner of Native 5 land at the time of the coming into operation of this Act, and includes the Native who subsequently by succession or bequest becomes beneficially entitled to the income derived therefrom under this Act: " Prescribed " means prescribed by regulations under this Act. 10 4. All references in this Act to Native owners shall be construed as applying to the Native owners of Native land situate in the Native land district to which the reference relates. 5. Part 11. of this Act shall apply only in Native land districts wherein this Act has been adopted in manner hereinafter provided. 15 Districts and Boards. * 6. The Governor may from time to time, by Order in Council gazetted, establish Native land districts, with such names, limits, ■' and boundaries as he thinks fit. 7. For each Native land district wherein this Act has been 20 adopted there shall be a Native Land Board, which shall be called " The Native Land Board of the [Name of Native land district\ ," and shall consist of five members, to wit, — (1.) The Commissioner of Crown Lands of the land district wherein the Native land district or the greater part 25 thereof is situated (hereinafter called " the Commissioner ") ; (2.) Two other members, being Europeans, to be appointed by the Governor as soon as conveniently may be after this Act is adopted in the district; and 30 (3.) Two other members, being Natives, to be elected by the Native owners out of their number as soon as conveniently may be after this Act is adopted in the district : Provided that at no time shall any Native be a member of more than one Native Land Board. 35 8. The members of the Native Land Board shall receive such salaries and travelling-allowances as the Governor in Council prescribes : Provided that in no case shall the Commissioner be entitled to salary, nor shall any payments be made under this section except out of moneys to be appropriated by Parliament out 40 of the hereinafter-mentioned Native Land Fund Account of the district. 9. The Commissioner shall be a member of the Native Land Board by virtue of his office as Commissioner of Crown Lands, and with respect to the other four members the following provisions 45 shall apply :— (1.) The ordinary term of office shall be three years, but a retiring member shall be eligible for reappointment or re-election. (2.) A member may at any time resign his seat by notice in 50 * writing under his hand delivered to the Commissioner.

L References to , Native owners.

Wherein Part 11. to apply.

Native land districts may be established.

Native Land Boards.

Members thereof.

Salaries and travellingallowances.

Provisions as to members other than Commissioner.

Term of office.

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(3.) A member may be removed from office at any time by the Governor in Council if the Governor is of opinion that from any cause he is incapacitated to act, or that he has been guilty of any misconduct which renders him unfit for office. 5 (4.) The seat of a member shall become vacant if he resigns, or is removed from office, or dies, or becomes bankrupt, or is convicted of any crime punishable by imprisonment for twelve months or upwards, or is absent from three successive ordinary meetings of the Board without leave 10 of the Board; and every such vacancy shall be deemed to be a casual vacancy. (5.) Every vacancy consequent on the expiry of the ordinary term of office shall be deemed to be an ordinary vacancy. (6.) Every vacancy, whether casual or ordinary, shall be filled by 15 the same appointing or electing authority as in the case of the vacating member: Provided that where the vacating member is a Native, and the unexpired residue of his term does not exceed twelve months, the Governor in Council may fill the vacancy by the appointment of a Native. 20 (7.) Every casual vacancy shall be filled within twenty-eight days after the occurring thereof, and the member filling it shall hold office only for the unexpired residue of the term of the vacating member. (8.) Every appointed member shall take office on the date of his 25 appointment. (9.) The election to fill an ordinary vacancy shall be held on the twenty-eighth day next before the vacancy occurs consequent on the expiry of the term, and the elected member shall take office on the day of such expiry. 30 (10.) Every election shall be held in the same manner, as nearly as may be, as in the case of an election of a member of the House of Eepresentatives for a Maori electoral district. (11.) In the case of Native members " The Disqualification Act, 1878," shall not apply. 35 (12.) Subject to the provisions of this Act and the regulations thereunder, the elections shall be held at such time and place and in such manner as are directed by the Governor in the case of the first election, and by the Native Land Board in the case of every subsequent election. 40 10. With respect to all meetings of the Native Land Board the following provisions shall apply :— (1.) Three members (including at least one Native) shall constitute a quorum. (2.) The Commissioner shall be Chairman, and shall have a 45 casting-vote in case of equality of voting, but not a deliberative vote. (3.) In the absence of the Commissioner from any meeting, he may appoint a European member to act as Deputy Chairman at such meeting, and the Deputy Chairman 50 shall have a deliberative vote, and also, in the case of equality of voting, a casting-vote. (4.) Subject to the provisions of this Act and the regulations thereunder the Native Land Board may regulate its own procedure. 55 13—1. 3a.

Vacancies.

Elections.

Procedure at meetings of Board

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Adoption of Act. 11. This Act shall not be adopted in any Native land district except at the request of the Native owners, to be expressed as hereinafter provided. 5 12. Any twenty or more of the Native owners, being adults, may by petition in the form numbered one in the Schedule hereto request the Governor to declare this Act to be adopted in the district, and thereupon the following provisions shall apply:— (1.) The Governor, upon being satisfied that the petitioners are 10 adult Native owners, shall by notice in the Gazette and Kahiti set forth the fact of the petition having been made, and declare that the same will be complied with unless written notice of objection in the form numbered two in the Schedule hereto, under the hands of not less 15 than twenty adult Native owners, is lodged at the Government House, Wellington, on or before a date to be specified in the Governor's notice, being not later than twentyeight days after the first publication thereof in the Gazette and Kahiti. 20 (2.) If such notice of objection is duly lodged, the Governor, upon being satisfied that the objectors are adult Native owners, shall cause a poll of all the Native owners in the district to be taken on the question whether this Act should or should not be adopted therein, and the question 25 shall be decided by the majority of votes recorded at the poll. (3.) The poll shall be taken in the same manner, as nearly as may be, as in the case of the election of a member of the House of Representatives for a Maori electoral district. 30 (4.) If the petition is not duly objected to in manner aforesaid, or if, being duly objected to, the majority of the votes recorded at the poll are in favour of the adoption of this Act, the Governor shall by notice in the Gazette and Kahiti declare this Act to be adopted in the district; 35 whereupon, from the date of the first publication of such notice in the Gazette and Kahiti, this Act shall be deemed to be adopted in the district accordingly. (5.) If the majority of the votes recorded at the poll are against the adoption of this Act, the Governor shall by notice in 40 the Gazette and Kahiti declare that this Act is not adopted in the district, and in such case no fresh petition for adoption shall be acted on by the Governor unless it is made at least six months after the date of the former poll. (6.) The Governor's notice in the Gazette or Kahiti, declaring 45 this Act to be adopted or not to be adopted in a Native land district, shall be conclusive evidence of the fact, and of the regularity and validity of all proceedings antecedent thereto. (7.) The Governor may from time to time, by Order in Council 50 published in the Gazette and Kahiti, make such regulations as he deems necessary for the purposes of this section and the proper conduct of the aforesaid poll.

Act to be adopted on request of Native owners.

Petition to Governor to declare Act adopted.

Objection,

Poll of Native owners.

Governor to notify if Act adopted or not.

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PART 11. ADMINISTRATION OF NATIVE LANDS IN NATIVE LAND DISTRICTS WHEREIN THIS ACT HAS BEEN DULY ADOPTED. Vesting. 13. Forthwith upon this Act being adopted in a Native land 5 district all Native lands therein shall by force of this Act become vested in the Native Land Board of the district for an estate in feesimple in possession, subject nevertheless to all valid encumbrances, liens, and interests then lawfully affecting the same, and the Native Land Board shall hold and administer the said lands for the benefit 10 of the Native owners in manner hereinafter provided. 14. For the purposes of the last-preceding section hereof the District Land Registrar, whenever requested by the Minister so to do, is hereby empowered and directed to do all things necessary in order to call in outstanding instruments of title, issue new instruments of 15 title, and duly record the title of the Board, in such manner as is prescribed. 15. No contribution to the Assurance Fund under " The Land Transfer Act, 1885," shall be payable on the registration of the Board's title of any lease under this Act. 20 Disposition. 16. Lands vested in the Native Land Board may be disposed of by the Board by way of lease, for such terms (not exceeding twentyone years at any one time), at such rentals, and on such conditions as to renewal (not exceeding twenty-one years at any one time), 25 residence, improvements, valuation for improvements, and otherwise as are prescribed, or as, subject to regulations, the Board thinks fit. 17. Except as hereinafter provided, no land vested in the Board shall be disposed of by way of sale, or of occupation with the right of purchase. 30 18. In the administration of the lands vested in it the Native Land Board may exercise the following special powers, subject, nevertheless, to prescribed regulations, that is to say:— (1.) The Board may set aside any portion of land for the personal use and occupation of the Native owners, on such terms 35 and conditions as the Board thinks fit. (2.) The Board may, out of any land, set apart reserves for burialplaces, schools, churches, and other specified purposes of public convenience or utility. (3.) Irrespective of the provisions of section sixteen hereof the 40 Board may set apart land and lease the same for the purpose of creameries, dairy or bacon factories, or any other similar purpose, for such term, at such rent, and subject to such covenants and conditions as, with the approval of the Minister, the Board thinks fit. 45 (4.) When disposing of land the Board may give to the applications of the Native owners priority over other applications. (5.) The Board may cede land to Her Majesty for mining purposes under " The Mining Act, 1891." 50 (6.) The Board may expend money in laying off, forming, and maintaining roads or streets, making surveys, and opening up land for settlement, and for any other purpose authorised by'this Act or the regulations thereunder:

All Native lands vested in Native Land Board.

District Land Registrar to reoord title of Board.

No contribution to Assurance Fund.

Board to lease lands vested in it.

Lands not to be sold.

Special powers of Board as to administration of lands.

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Provided that all surveys shall be made and all roads is f, and streets shall be laid off and formed subject to the control and regulations of the Survey Department of the msjs ' colony. „5 , (7.) The Board may exercise such other powers as are prescribed. 19. (1.) Any land vested in the Board may be taken for a public work or for any of the purposes specified in section two hundred and thirty-five of " The Land Act, 1892," and compensation 1() paid therefor, in the same manner as land is taken for a public work and compensation paid under the authority of " The Public Works Act, 1894 " ; and for the purpose of giving full effect to this section the following provisions shall apply : — (a.) All land vested in the Board shall be deemed to be land 15 within the meaning of "The Public Works Act, 1894," and the Board shall be deemed to be the absolute owner thereof in fee-simple. (b.) In all claims for compensation the Board shall be the claimant, and all moneys payable as compensation shall 20 be payable to the Board. (c.) All compensation moneys paid to the Board shall be invested or otherwise applied for the benefit of the Native owners in such manner as is prescribed, and the income arising therefrom shall be applied in the same manner as the 25 income of the land taken would have been applied if the land had not been taken. The provisions of sections twenty-eight and twentynine hereof shall apply to all such compensation moneys. (d.) For the purposes of this section "public work" has the 30 same meaning as in " The Public Works Act, 1894." (2.) Nothing in this section or elsewhere in this Act contained shall in any way limit or affeot the provisions of sections ninety-one to ninety-five of " The Public Works Act, 1894," or sections seventy to seventy-two of " The Native Land Court Act, 1894," relating to 35 roads. 20. For the purpose of carrying into effect the provisions of this Act relating to the disposition and administration of land vested in the Native Land Board, but for no other purpose, all restrictions, conditions, and limitations created in respect of such land by any 40 Act, or by any Crown grant, partition order, subdivision order, or other instrument of title, shall be deemed to be removed. 21. In respect of all lands vested in it the Native Land Board shall have and may exercise all the powers now possessed by the Native Land Court as to partition, succession, the definition of 45 relative interests, and the appointment of trustees for Native owners under disability. Begister. 22. The Native Land Board shall compile and keep a register, setting forth in respect of each separate block of land vested in it — 50 (1.) The area and description of the block; (2.) The mode in which the block is disposed of; (3.) The names of the Native owners of the block, their respective interests therein, and the date on which each Native ... ..; - .., owner became entitled to his interest therein; 55 (4.) Such other particulars as are prescribed.

Power bo take land for public work or for public purposes.

Restrictions in respect of land removed.

Board to have powers of Native Land Court.

Register of land 3 vested in Board.

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23. (1.) The register, or a copy thereof, shall be kept open for public inspection, without fee, in such convenient place in the district and during such hours as the Native Land Board prescribes. (2.) The Native Land Board shall from time to time make all such alterations in the register as are necessary for the purpose of 5 duly recording all changes of ownership, and generally of keeping the register accurate in every respect. 24. (1.) At prescribed half-yearly intervals the register shall be submitted to a competent authority, who shall inquire into and definitely settle and certify to the accuracy of all entries therein 10 relating to the Native owners and their respective interests, and for that purpose shall make all such additions and amendments as are necessary in order that the register may contain an accurate record of the Native owners and their respective interests as on and during the last preceding half-year. ,15 (2.) Such authority shall be the Native Land Court, or a Judge thereof, or, in the event of the abolition of the Native Land Court, such other fit person or persons as, after considering any recommendation of the Native Land Board, the Governor from time to time appoints. 20 (3.) Such authority shall have jurisdiction to inquire and determine who are the Native owners of any Native land, and what are their respective interests therein. 25. The register, when certified to as aforesaid, shall be conclusive evidence of the names of the Native owners and their 25 respective interests during the half-year to which the certificate relates. Application of Income. 26. All rentals, royalties, fees, and other income derived in respect of lands vested in the Native Land Board under the provi- 30 sions of this Act shall be paid to the Board, and shall, in the prescribed manner, be applied by the Board, — ) (1.) First, in defraying the cost of the administration within its district of this Act and of the lands vested in the Board; 35 (2.) Secondly, in defraying the charges due and payable in respect of any valid mortgage, lien, or charge affecting the land or the income derived therefrom ; (3.) Thirdly, in paying the surplus to the Native owners in shares proportionate to their respective interests, as 40 shown by the register when certified as aforesaid. 27. Such application and payment shall be computed and made at prescribed half-yearly intervals. . 28. Except as provided by this Act, no Native owner shall alienate, charge, or otherwise dispose of his interest in any land 45 vested in the Board, or in the income thereof, except by will made in favour of a Native. 29. In no case shall any Native owner's interest in land vested in the Board, or in the income thereof, be liable to be seized, sold, attached, or levied upon by any process whatever, nor shall it become 50 assets in bankruptcy.

Inspeotion of register.

Changes of ownership to be recorded. •

Accuracy of entries in register to be certified half-yearly.

Native Land Court to be certifying authority.

Jurisdiction of such authority.

Begister to be conclusive evidence.

Application of rentals and other income.

Payments to be made half-yearly.

Native owner not to dispose of interests except by will.

Native owner's interests not to be seized or sold.

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30. Any Native owner over sixteen years of age, whether under coverture or not, — (1.) May give good and valid discharges for any income to which he is entitled in respect of his interest in land vested in 5 the Board, and which is paid to him when such discharge is given; and also (2.) May, by writing under his hand, attested by a Justice of the Peace, solicitor of the Supreme Court, or Postmaster, authorise any adult Native owner to receive and give 10 valid discharges for any such income accrued due and payable when such authority is given; but every such authority shall be absolutely void if it relates to income which is not actually due and payable when the authority is given: 15 Provided that no payment made by the Board under this section shall be questioned or affected by reason merely that the Native owner is not over the age of sixteen years, unless the Board has received express notice in writing of the fact. 31. In any case where any Native owner is a minor, or lunatic, 20 sick, or infirm, the following provisions shall apply;— (1.) The Native Land Board may from time to time appoint some person to receive the moneys payable to such Native owner, and may in like manner revoke such appointment. 25 (2.) The person so appointed shall, in such manner as he thinks fit, apply such moneys for the maintenance, support, or education of such Native owner. (3.) The receipt of such person for any moneys payable to such Native owner shall be a discharge to the Native Land 30 Board, and the Board shall not be concerned or bound to see to the application of such moneys. (4.) Until such appointment the Board may exercise the powers which the person if appointed could or might exercise under this section. 35 Advances. 32. In any case where expenses are proposed to be incurred by the Native Land Board in laying off, forming, or maintaining roads or streets, or in making surveys, or in opening up lands for settlement, the following provisions shall apply : — 40 (1.) The Native Land Board may submit to the Minister a schedule of the proposed works, and of the expenses thereof, and make application for an advance of the amount of such expenses. (2.) The Minister, if satisfied, after conference with the Minister 45 of Lands, thai the proposed works and expenses are reasonable and proper, may, in his discretion, authorise the sums applied for or any less sum to be advanced to the Board out of moneys to be appropriated by Parliament out of the Public Works Fund. 50 Provided that the total amount which under this section may be advanced to any one Board in any one year shall not exceed five thousand pounds.

Native owners may give discharges for inoome.

Appointment of person to receive moneys payable to Native owner under disability.

Application of moneys so reoeived.

Minister may make advances to Board for constructing roads or making surveys.

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(3.) The amount of such advance, together with interest thereon at the rate of five pounds per centum per annum, shall by force of this Act be a charge upon the income derived from the land benefited by the works, such charge being so adjusted as to be proportionate to the benefit. 5 (4.) The amount of such advance, with interest thereon as aforesaid, shall be repayable in manner hereinafter provided. 33. In any case where, at the time of the adoption of this Act in any Native land district, any Native land therein which is thereby vested in the Board is subject to any valid encumbrance by way of 10 mortgage, lien, or charge, or the Native owners are burdened with unsecured debts, the following special provisions shall apply: — (1.) For the purpose of discharging such encumbrance, or debts, the Native owners of the land may apply in writing to the Board for an advance under this Act, on the security 15 of the income derived or to be derived from such land and any other Native land whereof they are the Native owners. (2-.) The Board shall thereupon refer the application to the Minister, with a report as to the sum required, the nature 20 of the encumbrance or debts, and the reason of their having been incurred, the income derived or to be derived from the land, and the sufficiency or otherwise of such income as a security for the proposed advance. (3.) The Minister shall refer such application and report to the 25 Government Advances to Settlers Office Superintendent, who shall lay the same before the Government Advances to Settlers Board, and that Board shall inquire into and consider the same, and make such recommendation thereon to the Minister as it thinks fit. 30 (4.) After considering such report and recommendation, the Minister, if satisfied with the security, and, in the case of debts, that they have been properly incurred and should equitably be paid, may in his discretion authorise the sum applied for or any less sum to be advanced out of 35 moneys to be appropriated by Parliament out of the Public Works Fund: Provided that no advance shall be made except in accordance with such recommendation, and also that the total amount which under this section may be advanced 40 to any one Native Land Board in any one year shall not exceed five thousand pounds in the case of encumbrances, and one thousand pounds in the case of unsecured debts. (5.) The advance so authorised shall be paid to the Native Land Board, and the Board shall apply the same in or towards 45 discharging the encumbrance or paying the debts. (6.) The amount of the advance, together with interest thereon at the rate of five pounds per centum per annum, shall by force of this Act be a charge upon the income forming the security, and shall be repayable in manner hereinafter 50 provided.

Advances may be made to discharge encumbrances on Native land.

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Bepayment of Advances with Interest thereon. 34. With respect to the repayment of the aforesaid advances, with interest thereon, the following provisions shall apply : — (1.) The amount of the advance, together with interest thereon 5 at the rate of five pounds per centum per annum, shall, out of the income upon which the same is charged as aforesaid, be repayable by the Board to the Colonial Treasurer on behalf of Her Majesty by equal half-yearly instalments, extending over such term of years not exceeding forty-two 10 as is agreed on between the Board and the Minister, and the first instalment shall be payable six months after the commencement of such term. (2.) Such term shall commence on such date as is agreed on, being in no case later than four years after the date of the 15 advance: Provided that for the period elapsing between the date of the advance and the commencement of such term, the Board shall at such intervals as the Minister directs (in no case exceeding half-yearly intervals) pay interest at 20 the rate aforesaid on the amount of the advance. (3.) Every such instalment shall consist partly of principal and partly of interest, and shall be calculated and paid according to a table to be prescribed by regulations under this Act. (4.) Such prescribed table shall be computed and framed in the 25 same mode and on the same principle as the table set out in the Second Schedule to " The Government Advances to Settlers Act, 1894." (5.) All instalments and interest moneys paid by the Board shall, as and when received by the Colonial Treasurer, be paid 30 over by him to the Public Trustee, to an account called " The Native Lands Protection and Administration Advances Account " (hereinafter referred to as " The Native Advances Account"). (6.) All moneys in the Native Advances Account shall be invested 35 by the Public Trustee in such authorised investments as will yield the highest rate of interest, and shall be held at the disposal of the Colonial Treasurer as and when required by him for the purpose of providing the principal and interest moneys payable in respect of the debentures issued 40 under the provisions in that behalf hereinafter contained, and the costs and expenses connected with the issue or conversion of such debentures. Debentures. 35. (1.) For the purpose of providing funds out of which all ad--45 vances under this Act may be made, the Colonial Treasurer, as often as occasion requires, may raise money from the balances in, any of the accounts mentioned in Part VIII. of " The Public Revenues Act, 1891," or in any other account containing public moneys which may lawfully be invested in such securities as the Governor in Council 50 authorises, or from the Public Works Fund, or from any bank, monetary institution, or person, or from any one or more of such sources.

Mode of repayment of advances and interest thereon.

Colonial Treasurer may raise money.

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12 Native Lands Settlement and Administration.

(2.) This Act shall be a sufficient authority to the persons having the control of the moneys referred to in this section to lend the same under this Act. 36. As security for any money raised by the Colonial Treasurer under this Act, he may create and issue debentures for such 5 amount as is required, and, with respect to such debentures, the following provisions shall apply : — (1.) They shall be in such form and for such amounts as the Colonial Treasurer prescribes, and shall be signed by him and countersigned by the Controller and Auditor- 10 General. (2.) They shall be payable to bearer, and shall bear interest at a rate not exceeding four pounds per centum per annum. (3.) They may from time to time be renewed for such period as the Colonial Treasurer thinks fit. 15 (4.) They shall be payable, both as to principal and interest, at the place named in that behalf in the debentures. (5.) They shall be numbered consecutively, so that no two debentures bear the same number. (6.) The principal and interest moneys payable in respect of the 20 debentures are hereby declared to be a charge upon and shall be payable out of the Consolidated Fund ; but for the purpose of providing such moneys as they become due the Colonial Treasurer shall apply the moneys in the Native Advances Account, and the Public Trustee shall, 25 without further appropriation than this Act, from time to time pay to him out of the moneys in that account whatever sum he requests for such purpose, or for the purpose of defraying the costs and charges connected with the issue or conversion of the debentures. 30 (7.) Every debenture which on its face purports to have been issued under this Act shall, in so far as concerns the holder and his security, be deemed to have been lawfully issued under this Act; and no holder shall be concerned to see or inquire whether or to what extent the power 35 of issue given by this Act has been duly exercised. (8.) The Governor in Council may from time to time declare all or any of the debentures to be convertible into stock created or issued under " The New Zealand Consolidated Stock Act, 1877," or "The Consolidated Stock Act, 40 1884." (9.) All costs and expenses incurred in raising money by the debentures or in converting the same into stock shall be payable out of the Public Works Fund without further appropriation than this Act, but shall, as soon as practi- 45 cable, be recouped to that fund out of the moneys in the Native Advances Account. (3 0.) The moneys raised by means of the debentures shall be paid into the Public Works Fund, but shall be available only for the purposes of advances under this Act as herein- 50 before provided.

Authority to lend money.

Debentures may be issued.

Provisions as to debentures.

14-1. 3a.

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Completion of Dealings pending. 37. In any case where, at the time of the adoption of this Act in a Native land district, negotiations for the purchase on behalf of Her Majesty of any specified block of Native land thereby vested in 5 the Native Land Board are in progress, such purchase may be completed with the Board as vendor, anything hereinbefore contained to the contrary notwithstanding; and a certificate by the Minister that negotiations for any such purchase were then in progress shall be sufficient evidence of the fact. 10 38. In any case where, at the time of the adoption of this Act in a Native land district, any lawful private dealing in Native land thereby vested in the Native Land Board, being a dealing which was bond fide commenced subsequent to the passing of " The Native Land Court Act, 1894," is bond fide in progress, and has been bond fide com--15 pleted in part, the following provisions shall apply:— (1.) At any time within two months after such adoption, any party to such dealing (other than the Native owner) may give to the Native Land Board written notice specifying the nature of the dealing, the land to which it relates, 20 the extent to which the dealing is complete, and his desire to wholly complete the same. (2.) 4ny dealing as to which the aforesaid notice is duly given may at any time within twelve months after such adoption be completed with the Native Land Board on behalf 25 of the Native owner, anything hereinbefore contained to the contrary notwithstanding. (3.) After the expiration of the time hereinbefore limited for the completion of any dealing, the Native Land Court, or, in the event of its abolition, any other competent authority 30 appointed by the Governor in Council, may ascertain and determine by partition of the land or otherwise v the respective interests of the parties to the dealing. (4.) Nothing in this section contained shall be construed to authorise the completion of any dealing which could not 35 have lawfully been completed if this Act had not been passed. 39. (1.) All moneys received by the Native Land Board in : respect of any sale or other dealing under either of the two last- - 1 preceding sections hereof shall be invested or otherwise applied for 40 the benefit of the Native owners in such manner as is prescribed, and the income arising therefrom shall be applied in the same manner as the income of the land would have been applied'if no such sale or other dealing had taken place. (2.) The provisions of sections twenty-eight and twenty-nine 45 hereof shall apply to all moneys received as aforesaid by the Native Land Board. , Accounts and Audit. 40. All moneys payable under this Act to the Native Land i , - Board shall, as and when received, be paid into the bank at which the i 50 Public Account of the colony is kept, to the credit of an account to be called "The Native Land Fund Account of..'the Native Land

Purohases fo Queen may be completed.

Completion of lawful private dealings.

Investment of proceeds hereunder.

Native Land Fund Acoount.

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14 Native Lands Settlement and Administration.

District of [Name of the district] ; and all moneys payable under this Act by the Native Land Board shall be paid out of such account. 41. Such account shall in the case of each Board be kept at such branch or office of the bank as, subject to prescribed regulations, the Board thinks fit, and shall be operated on only by cheque signed 65 by the Commissioner, or in such other manner as is prescribed. 42. All moneys in such account, or payable into such account, shall be deemed to be public moneys within the meaning of " The Public . Revenues Act, 1891," and all the provisions of that Act relating to public moneys and to persons dealing therewith shall 10 apply accordingly : -CI (.:.:) Provided that, except where otherwise specially directed by this Act, all moneys payable out of such account may be so paid without further appropriation than this Act. 43. The Native Land Board shall cause full and accurate accounts 15 to be kept of all moneys received and paid by it under this Act, and shall at such intervals as are prescribed, and also whenever the Controller and Auditor-General so directs, furnish to him copies or abstracts of such accounts in such form as he directs? 44. Nothing in this Act contained shall operate to render lands 20 that are vested in the Native Land Board, or the income or other moneys arising therefrom, or the Native owners who are entitled thereto, liable to any other or higher rate or tax than that to, which the'same were liable prior to the lands being vested in the Board. Miscellaneous. /"■ ' 25 45. Within ten days after the close of each financial year ending the thirty-first day of March, there shall be prepared and laid before Parliament if in session, or, if .not in session, then within ten days after the commencement of the next ensuing session thereof, the following statements, certified as correct by the Audit Office, that is 30 to say,— ' (1.) By the Colonial Treasurer, a statement showing; for, such , year,— ;.....; :,,. , (a.) The amount of each advance made to each Board lo ,:, during the year under the provisions in that behalf here- 35 inbefore contained, and the purposes for which the advance was made ; .',. , I.) (b.) The.value.of-the security for each such advance; ('"':- -.'.. (c.) The instalments by which the advance is repay- ! able; . ~ 40 (d.) The total amount of all outstanding advances; (c.) The total number and amount of instalments in arrear ; ,'. ,;:,.., (/..) The amount of debentures issued under this Act; (g.) Such other particulars as are prescribed. ■;-. 45 (2.) By the Public. Trustee, a statement showing for such year,— i ;(/t.) All - moneys paid into the Native Advances Account; : i; ~ ;I ,;;; , ..:..,..- ,: . :. : '-'- 05 (i.) All interest received.from. the investment of such moneys; ..'■:..■ .. ~;:..-:. , : y:'. :'. s;_'T •• 50

here account to be kept.

Moneys therein deemed public moneys.

Full accounts to be kept, and copies furnished to Audit.

Lands not to be subject to higher rate or tax than that to which they were previously liable.

Returns to be laid before Parliament.

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Native Lands Settlement and Administration. 15

(k.) All moneys paid out of that account to the Colonial Treasurer; (I.) The balance in that account at the beginning and at the end of the year. 5 46. The Governor may from time to time, by Order in Council published in the Gazette and Kahiti, make regulations for any of the purposes following, that is to say : — (1.) Regulating the conduct of elections of Native members of Native Land Boards, and the mode in which the votes of 10 Native minors may be recorded; (2.) Defining the powers, functions, and duties of the Commissioner and the Native Land Board respectively ; (3.) Making provision for the appointment of Returning Officers, Receivers, and- other officers under this Act, fixing their 15 salaries, and defining their functions and duties ; (4.) Making provision for the taking of land for roads or streets, or for public works within the meaning of " The Public Works Act, 1894," i.r for any of the purposes referred to in section eighteen hereof; 20 (5.) Laying off townships ; (6.) Fixing the maximum area that may be comprised in any one lease of land, or that may be held by any one lessee ; (7.) Classifying and surveying lands ; (8.) Fixing the mode in which lands may be leased or other--25 wise disposed of under this Act; (9.) Prescribing the forms, conditions, and covenants of leases and other instruments under this Act, and the mode of execution and registration thereof; (10.) Defining the duties and powers of the District Land 30 Registrar in respect of the registration of leases and other instruments; (11.) Prescribing the mode in which and the principle on which valuation for improvements shall be computed ; (12.) Prescribing tables of instalments by which advances and 35 interest are repayable ; (13.) Making provision for enforcing, in such manner as he thinks fit, the charge created by this Act in respect of advances; (14.) Applying to this Act such of the provisions of " The Mining 40 Act, 1891," " The Land Act, 1892," and " The Public Works Act, 1894," as he thinks fit, with such modifications as he deems necessary for the purposes of this Act; : (15.) Any other purpose for which regulations are contemplated or required under this Act, or which he deems necessary 45 in order to give full effect to the intention of this Act. 47. This Act shall be construed subject to the provisions of the following Acts, that is to say: — " The Railways Construction and Land Act, 1881 "; " The Land and Income Assessment Act, 1891" ; 50 " The Public Works Act, 1894 "; .:.:. " The Land for Settlements Act, 1894 "; 0: " The Rating Act, 1894 " ; " The Rating on Unimproved Value Act, 1896 " :

Regulations,

Acts subject to which this Act to be construed.

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16 Native Lands Settlement and Administration.

Provided that, with respect to all land vested in the Native Land Board, the Board shall be treated as the owner for all the purposes of those Acts; and also that in the case of " The Land for Settlements Act, 1894," such land shall be subject thereto in like manner as private land. 5 48. The Governor in Council may exempt any Native land from the operation of this Act in cases where he is satisfied that the Native owner is himself fully competent to administer such land. 49. Every public, private, or local Act which is in any way in conflict with this Act is hereby modified or repealed in so far as such 10 conflict exists, but not further or otherwise.

Exemption to Native owner to administer his land

Modification of other Acts.

SCHEDULE. Form No. I.—Petition. Under " The Native Lands Settlement and Administration Act, 1898." To His Excellency the Governor : ■ . - The undersigned, being [Set out number, not less than twenty] adult Native landowners of Native lands situate within the Native Land District of [Name], hereby petition His Excellency the Governor to declare " The Native Lands Settlement and Administration Act, 1898," to be adopted in the aforesaid district. Dated this day of , 18 . [Here set out a Maori translation of the foregoing portion of the petition.]

Schedule.

[The attesting witness must be a Justice of the Peace, a solicitor, a Postmaster, a Clerk of the Magistrate's Court, or a Registrar or other officer of the Native Land Court.]

Foem 2.—Notice of Objection. Under " The Native Lands Settlement and Administration Act, 1898." To His Excellency the Governor : The undersigned, being [Set out number, not less than twenty] adult Native landowners of Native lands situate within the Native Land District of [Name] , hereby give His Excellency notice that they object to the petition of [Set out name of first petitioner] and others respecting the adoption of " The Native Lands Settlement and Administration Act, 1898," within the aforesaid district, as set forth in His Excellency's notice in the Kahiti on the day of , 18 . [Set out date of the Governor's notice.] Dated this day of ,18 . [To be translated, signed, attested, and completed in the same manner as in the case of the petition.]

JSTo. Signature of Petitioner. Age, in Years. Block in which Signature of Witness, in testimony that the Petitioner has in- Petitioner fully understood the purport of terest as Owner. the Petition before signing it. 1 2 &c. A.B. CD. &c. E.F. G.H. &c.

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APPENDIX B. Note.—Additions by the Maoris are shown by a line down the marginyand in oase of parts of lines by a rule underneath. [Tbanslation fbom the Maoei.] THE NATIVE LANDS PROTECTION AND ADMINISTRATION BILL. of the Native Lands Peotection and Administbation Bill, with Amendments suggested by the Te Kotahitanga, or Maori Meeting, held at Papawai, Greytown North, during the Months of May and June, 1898. Wheeeas in the Diamond Jubilee year of Her Majesty Queen Victoria certain members of the Native race forwarded a petition asking Her Majesty to stop the sale of Native land : And whereas it is for the benefit of both races that this should be given effect to, for the reason that the land is required for the Maori owners : And whereas it is necessary that the law in reference to reserving and administrating Native lands, for conferring the jurisdiction of the Native Land Court upon Boards to be appointed thereunder, for promoting the welfare of the Maori people, for instructing them in utilising and settling upon their lands, and for the purpose of encouraging the better attendance and instruction of their children at schools should be consolidated : Be it therefore enacted, in commemoration of the fifty-eighth year of Her Most Gracious Majesty's government of her Maori subjects in New Zealand, as follows : — Be it theeefoee enacted by the General Assembly of New Zealand in Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows: — 1. The Short Title of this Act is " The Native Land Beserves and Administration Act, 1898." 1. The colony, for the purpose of this Act, to be divided into districts. 2. For each district there shall be a Native Land Board consisting of the Commissioner of Crown Lands and four Maori members, to be appointed by the Governor. Such appointments to be published in the Gazette and Kahiti of New Zealand. 3. The members of the Board shall be paid such salaries and allowances as may from time to time be fixed by the Governor out of moneys appropriated by Parliament. 4. The Commissioner of Crown Lands shall, by virtue of his office, be Chairman of the Board, and shall have a casting-vote only; in his absence he may appoint one of the members as DeputyChairman. 5. A Deputy-Chairman shall have a deliberative as well as a casting-vote. 6. Three members shall be a quorum, at all meetings of the Board convened for the despatch of business. 7. This Act shall apply to all Maori lands the title to which has been ascertained by the Native Land Court and all papatupu lands; also to all lands held under lease, and to any shares or interests outstanding and unbought or un leased in any negotiations for purchase or lease entered into before the passing of this Act. 8. On the Board being appointed it shall forthwith, as its first duty, by notice duly published, call meetings of the Maoris resident in each sub-district throughout the district under its control, to enable it to carry into effect the following provisions : — (1.) The appointment of committees for each sub-district, and block committees for each separate block of land, or for several blocks of land collectively, as the case may be ; (2.) The arranging and settling of the boundaries of the lands to be set apart under section fourteen of this Act; and (3.) To select and decide upon the lands, or the portions of lands, to be administered by the Board, and to take charge of the documents setting forth the consent of the majority of the owners of each respective block of land to such lands being handed over to the Board. 9. The consent of one or more owners in respect of the whole of a block of land, or of a portion only of a block of land, shall be forwarded by the Board to the Governor, with its report thereon attached thereto, setting forth the title and the description of such land or lands, and the most suitable manner of dealing with the same, such report to be published by the Governor in the Gazette and Kahiti of New Zealand, with a notice calling for objections thereto (if any); such objection (if any) to be lodged within days after the publication of such report, as the Governor shall determine, and to set forth the grounds of objection. 10. If any objection be lodged, such objection shall be forwarded by the Governor to the Board to be inquired into and disposed of by it at a meeting of the owners of the land the subject of such report. The decision arrived at by the Board to be forwarded to the Governor, and to be published in the Gazette. Such decision to be final as to whether the land is to be handed over to the Board or not. 11. The lands subject to the following Acts are exempt from the operation of this Act :— "The Thermal-Springs Districts Act, 1881 " ; . ~ " The Westland and Nelson Native Beserves Act, 1887- ";- . - - ;1 " The West Coast Settlement Beserves Act, 1892 " ; aad " The Native Townships Act, 1895"; and "The Urewera District Native Beserve~Act, 1896." Also all lands purchased from the Crown or Europeans by Maoris, except in cases in -which, the owner or jrwners thereof may voluntarily place the same within the scope and operation of this Act. ' ' '

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- 12. The Board shall have power to dispose of Native lands by lease or tender, at such rentals, for such periods, and subject to such conditions as are prescribed by regulations under the Act. 13. No Native land subject to this Act may be purchased or sold, or seized and sold for debt or to satisfy a mortgage, except for completion of dealings by way of sale or lease commenced before the passing of this Act. This section shall also apply to lands exempted from the operation of this Act by section eleven hereof. 14. The Board is empowered, by voluntary arrangement with the Maori owners of the land to be dealt with, to reserve for the use and occupation of, and for pas for, the Maori owners, on such terms as the Board and owners may think fit, and also to reserve land for burial-places, schools, churches, and other purposes of public convenience or utility, and also to reserve lands which owners may desire to work as farms or runs, or which may be in occupation as farms or runs before the passing of this Act. 15. When disposing of Native lands by lease, the Board may give priority to applications of Natives who are landless, or who may be owners of the lands thrown open for leasing. 16. The Board may agree with Her Majesty for Native lands to be available for mining purposes under " The Mining Act, 1891," the revenues from all such lands in respect of mining being paid by the Warden to the Board for the benefit of the Native owners. 17. The Board may expend money on the formation and maintenance of roads, streets, surveys, and opening land for settlement, or any other purpose authorised by the Act or regulations, subject to the consent of the Maori owners of the land having been first obtained to such expenditure being incurred. 18. The Board shall have such further powers as may be conferred upon it by regulations, and all regulations shall be laid upon the table of both Houses within fourteen days after being gazetted, if Parliament be in session, and, if not in session, within fourteen days after the commencement of the first-ensuing session thereof. Copies of such regulations to be supplied and circulated amongst the Maoris resident in the Board's district. 19. The Board shall, with respect to Native lands vested in it, have all the powers of the Native Land Court as to partition, succession, definition of relative interests, and appointment of trustees for Native owners under disability, and also as to ascertaining the title to papatupu lands, and as to importing into titles the names of persons found to be entitled, but whose names have been omitted in titles to land the ownership whereof has been ascertained and vested in one or more persons as trustees only for certain other persons or hapus entitled to the said lands. 20. The income of the Board in respect of Native lands shall be applied— (1.) To defray costs of administration ; (2.) Paying off mortgages, charges, and liens that are due ; *: ■ (3.) Paying balance to Native owners according to their relative interests. 21. No Native owner may dispose of his interest in any Native land after the passing of this Act except by will or ohaaki in favour of another Native. ,22. The Board shall have the power to inquire into and grant probate of wills made before |the. passing of this Act in such districts as the Governor may appoint or authorise. 23. The Board may borrow from the Government not more than £5,000 in any year for the purpose of roading, surveying, and opening lands for settlement; such sum of money and the works upon which it is to be expended to be under the entire and absolute control of the Board. 24. At the request of the Native owners concerned, the Board may borrow from the Government in any year not more than £5,000 for the purpose of discharging mortgages or other encumbrances to which the lands are subject at the time of the adoption of the Act, and may borrow other sums of money for the purpose of improving lands intended for farms or runs. 25. The moneys so borrowed from the Government shall be repayable, with interest at 5 per centum per annum, by equal annual instalments extending over upwards of forty-two years, and the instalments shall be deducted from the income of the Native owners for whose benefit the money was borrowed. 26. Uncompleted purchases by the Crown, and all uncompleted private dealings lawfully commenced, and which could have been lawfully completed but for the passing of the Act, may be completed through the Board; the Board being empowered to cut off and define the shares which have been purchased or leased, or to transfer to the Crown or to private persons shares outstanding unpurchased on payment of the consideration therefor, or to repurchase shares bought by Crown or any private person, and with power to apply for the removal of Proclamations and cancellation of certificates granted under section one hundred and eighteen of "The Native Land Court Act, 1894." 127. The Governor may from time to time make such regulations as he may think fit for the carrying-out of the provisions of this Act. 28, On application duly made by the owner of any land, supported by the approval of the Board, the Governor in Council may exempt any Native land from the operation of the Act in cases where he is satisfied that the Native owner is himself fully competent to administer the same due reg<ard, however, being paid to the provisions contained in section thirteen thereof. 29. All Maori lands situate in a district subject to this Act, held by pakehas or Maoris under, lease duly effected according to law before- the-passing of -this- Act, are to be unaffected by this Act for the unexpired term created by such lease : Provided always that section thirteen of this Act shall apply to lands so leased.

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30. No rates or taxes are to be levied or demanded from Maoris in respect of Maori lands leased under the authority of this Act, 31. At such time as the Board shall proceed to select the lands specified in subsection three of section eight and section fourteen hereof, the Board shall inquire, and satisfy itself, whether each man, woman, and child has, for a cultivation or kainga, sufficient land for his or her support, and for the maintenance of his or her descendants. If the Board is satisfied that they have not sufficient land for such purpose, or that any particular Maori has no interest or ownership in the lands then being set aside as cultivations or kaingas, the Board shall thereupon set apart sufficient land for the support of him or her out of other lands owned by him or her, either by exchange or in some other manner as to the Board and the owners of the land then being dealt with may appear just. 32. No rates or taxes shall be levied on Maori lands which, by reason of their unproductive and sterile character, are unleased and lying waste and unoccupied. 33. The Board shall have full power from time to time, and for such terms as the Board shall deem fit, to appoint Maori committees for sub-districts within the Board's district, for the management of such matters as in the opinion of the Board should be delegated to such committees, viz.: —• (1.) To investigate and determine partitions and define relative interests, to appoint successors and trustees, and to adjudicate upon and ascertain titles to papatupu lands; (2.) To administer under proper regulations matters affecting the well-being and sanitary condition of the villages, houses, water-supply, pathways, and roads of the Maoris and the hapus residing in such sub-districts ; (3.) To take measures for safeguarding their food and money supplies, and preventing the extravagant waste and expenditure thereof; and (4.) To make regulations for the proper and effectual control and management of schoolchildren and their future advancement in life. 34. The decisions and resolutions passed by the Committee in respect of any land or matter submitted to it by the Board shall be recorded and duly reported to the Board. The Board shall have full power to confirm, suspend, or vary the same in such manner as it may deem fit. 35. No lawyer or agent other than an owner, or a person married to an owner according to either European or Maori custom, or a trustee, shall appear before the Board or committee on behalf of any person in the matter of any adjudication of Maori lands unless on behalf of an owner who is unavoidably absent, or who is incompetent to conduct his or her case, then only with the permission of the Board or committee for a period to be specified and revokable. 36. The Judges of the Native Land Court are hereby dispensed with, but all Begistrars, clerks, and interpreters shall continue and be deemed to have been appointed under this Act; and all interpreters of the Court shall be clerks to the Boards or committees, and shall receive the fees and take charge of the records whilst the Boards or committees are performing the duties of the Court. 37. The Bating and Taxing Acts shall not apply to the lands set aside for cultivations or kaingas and the lands enumerated or referred to in section fourteen of this Act, and all improvements made thereon, but lands used and occupied by Maoris as farms and runs are not to be exempt from rating and taxation. 38. The Stamp Act shall not apply to lands placed under the control and management of the Board. 39. The Governor shall appoint as members of the Board the Commissioner of Crown Lands and four Maoris, the latter to be respectively selected by the Maoris of each sub-district in the Board district, such appointments to be published in the Gazette and Kahiti of New Zealand. The term of office of each member of the Board to be for three years, terminable by death or by removal for misconduct. 40. In selecting the said Maori members of the Board the Board district is to be divided into four sub-districts, with one member for each sub-district, to be selected from amongst the owners of land in such sub-district. Such persons to be nominated on a date to be fixed, and if such nomination is contested, then the matter is to be submitted to the persons assembled at the place of nomination and decided by show of hands, but if no settlement is arrived at the names of the persons nominated shall be forwarded to the Governor; but in no case are the names so forwarded to exceed two in number for each sub-district, and the Governor shall appoint one only of them. 41. The Governor shall from time to time publish in the Kahiti all Maori lands brought under the operation of this Act and the management of the Board any lands held in fee-simple by any Maori, being lands purchased by him from the Crown or from an European, brought under the operation of this Act on application of the owner thereof. 42. The Governor may exempt from the control of the Boards appointed under this Act all or any of the lands in any sub-district, but may at any time thereafter, on the application of the owners thereof, bring the lands so exempted under the control and administration of the Board. 43. The Governor may, on the application of the owners thereof, bring under the operation of this Act any land which is exempt under section eleven hereof. 44. Any woman who is an owner of lands for which a Block Committee is about to be appointed is eligible for appointment as a member of such Committee. 45. The Governor may, on petition, and on his being satisfied as to the reasonableness of the prayer of such petition, proclaim any district or block of land as a preserve for Maori birds, or any lake as an eel-fishery, for the benefit of the Maori owners of the lands or lakes so reserved.

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APPENDIX C* Besolutions passed at Waipatu, Hastings. 0

APPENDIX D.* Besolutions passed by tribes assembled at Wanganui during visit of the Bight Hon. the Premier.

APPENDIX E.* Besolutions passed by Ngaitahu assembled at Takapau, Hawke's Bay.

APPENDIX F.* Besolutions passed at Petane,. Aropaanui, and Waikari, Hawke's Bay.

APPENDIX G.* Besolutions passed by tribes assembled at Mohaka.

APPENDIX H.* Besolutions passed at meeting, at Wanganui, presided over by H. T. Whatahoro.

APPENDIX I.* Besolutions passed at meeting held at Porangahau.

APPENDIX J.* Besolutions passed by Ngatihineuru residing at Tarawera.

APPENDIX X.* Besolutions passed by a large section of Ngapuhi.

APPENDIX L. Petition to Hee Majesty the Queen. To Our Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria. This our address is an expression of the love and loyalty we, your aboriginal race of New Zealand, entertain toward your Most Gracious Majesty, our mother and protector, as arranged and agreed by us in the Treaty of Waitangi. Greetings to you, for by the grace of God He has prolonged your days to reign and occupy the throne of your ancestors; we therefore, your loyal children (subjects), are always impressed, and pray that your days may be further prolonged by our Father in heaven. On the occasion of your accession to the throne New Zealand, was your first infant colony. We therefore pray you, our Most Gracious Majesty, to favour us, your Maori race living in these Isles under your sovereignty, that as a memento of your anniversary and prolonged, dignified, and most beneficent reign over us we humbly beseech you to grant us, your Maori subjects of New Zealand, full rights and powers to reserve for ever the surviving portions of our lands to serve us your Maori people, as a mother would her children, to be as a succour to us for ever and ever. For we recognise that from the beginning of the colonisation of this colony up to the present more than sixty million of acres of our lands have passed into the hands of private persons and the Crown; the area, therefore, of our surviving lands which we your Maori subjects still retain at present number five million acres, more or less. We, your Maori subjects, desire therefore to retain and utilise our surviving land ourselves, and any portions that we may not be able to cultivate we are willing and shall be pleased to lease for the purposes of settlement and development of the colony. We, however, have no desire to see our surviving lands pass from our hands, for we all recognise that this shall and will be our only succour to keep us and our heirs together for ever. This, however, our wish, desire, and request, can only be given effect to by passing such legislation prohibiting for ever the sale of our surviving lands to the Crown and private persons. All the causes which brought about our troubles of the past, on account of the misunderstandings between both races, have ceased, and now in its place reigns peace and quietness equivalent to the state of the many countries and people now living under your Majesty's most beneficent reign. Sufficient; and long may Her Majesty survive, and may God protect you and all the Boyal family, your Ministers and administrators. God save the Queen !

* The resolutions contained in Appendices C to X are embodied in Appendix B, printed in full in the Maori following.

Approximate Cost of Paper. —Preparation, not given ; printing {1,575 copies), 10s.

Price 3s.] By Authority: John Mackay, Government Printer, Wellington.—lB9B. 15—1. 3a.

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[Translation.] 1898. NIC TIEENI.

KOMITI MO NGA MEA MAORI. TE PIEE WHAKANOHONOHO XI TE TANGATA WHAKAHAEEE HOKI I NGA WHENUA MAOEI (RIPOATA MO TE PIRE), HUI ATU XI NGA PITIHANA ME NGA KORERO I KOREROTIA XI TE AROARO 0 TE KOMITI. TE AUHANA, TIAMANA (R. M. HOUSTON, CHAIRMAN).

J whakatakotoria kite Whare i te 3 o Noema, 1898, a whakahaua ana kia perehitia kite reo Ingarihi kite reo Maori hoki.

OTA WHAKAHAU. He mea kape mai i roto i nga pukapuka o te Whare o Raro o te Paremete. Turei, TE 20 O NGA KA o Hepetema, 1898. Whakahaua ana, "Me tuku te Pire Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori kite Komiti mo nga mea Maori." —Honore Te Hetana (Hon. R. J. Seddon).

KLPOATA. Pice Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaebe hoki i nga Whenua Maoei. I tukuna mai c te Whare tenei Pire kite Komiti mo nga Mea Maori, a kua whakahaua ahau kia ki penei: Kua tuhituhia katoa etc Komiti nga korero a nga Maori i tukuna mai nei c nga iwi Maori katoa o te Koroni hei whakaatu mai i o ratou whakaaro mo te Pire me nga tikanga o roto, engari, mutu rawa ake taua mahi roa, kitea ana c kore te Pire c taea te ata whiriwhiri i te mea kua tata tonu te mutu o tenei tuunga o te Paremete ; na reira kite whakaaro o te Komiti me nuku te Pire mo te huihuinga o te Paremete c haere ake nei, engari i mua mai o taua huihuinga me perehi katoa aua korero a nga Maori i korero ai mo te Pire. 3 o Noema, 1898. Te Auhana, Tiamana (E. M. Houston, Chairman). [Tirohia te Pire, kei nga Pukapuka Apiti.~\

NGA PITIHANA. Nama 342, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, me 379. —Pitihana a Tamahau Mahtofku me etahi atu 3,367, Tawake Pine me etahi atu tokoiwa, Rawibi Kepa me etahi atu 29, Hiea Ihaia me etahi atu 49, Timi Waata Rimini me etahi atu 71, Hieaka te Rango me etahi tokoono, Matitha Enoka me etahi atu 71. E whakapai ana nga kai-pitihana kite Pire Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, a c inoi ana kia whakaaetia, engari me whakauru kite Pire nga menemana whakatikatika i paahitia nei c te Runanga Nui o nga Maori i tv nei ki Papawai i te 20 o Hutie, 1898. Kua whakahaua ahau kia ki penei, kite whakaaro o te Komiti me tuku atu enei pitihana kite Kawanatanga kia whiriwhiria. 3 o Noema, 1898. Te Atthana, Tiamana (R. M. Houston, Chairman). I—l. 3a.

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Nama 342 (Raiti Honore Te Hetana). He mea tuku atu kite Komiti mo nga Mea Maori hei pitihana. Xi a Te Raiti Honore Te Hetana, Minita o te Taha Maori. Tena koe. Ko matou, c mau ake nei nga ingoa i raro nei me a matou tohu, a awhina ana c tautoko ana hoki i te Pire me nga kupu whakatikatika i whakaputaina i te 20 o Hune, 1898, c te huinga nui o nga Rangatira Maori o Niu Tireni, ac inoi ana matou ki a koe kia whakaarohia nga kupu whakatikatika me nga kupu whakauru ki to Pire. Heoi. Etc Atua tohungia te Kuini. Tamahau Mahupuku me etahi atu c 3,367. He pera ano me te pitihana i runga tonu ake nei nga korero o nga pitihana Nama 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, me 379, a Tawake Pine me etahi atu c 9, a Rawiri Kepa me etahi atu c 29, a Hira Ihaia me etahi atu c 49, a Timi Waata Rimini me etahi atu c 71. Huihui katoa nga ingoa o nga tangata c tautoko ana i te Pire, c 3,609.

Nama 195, 196, 197, 326, 347, 355, me 373. —Pitihana a Hamioea Mangakahia me etahi atu tokoono, Wiaei Topia me etahi atu 113, Tana Taingakawa me etahi atu 5,975, Toataua te Ake me etahi atu '3,390, Taabe Pobotene me etahi atu 41, Henaee te Atua me etahi atu 98, me Teiea Waieau me etahi atu 145. E whakahe ana nga kai-pitihana i te Pire Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, a c inoi ana kia whakaurua kite Whare tetahi Pire pai ake i tera mo te iwi Maori. Kua whakahaua ahau kia ki penei, kite whakaaro o te Komiti me tuku atu enei pitihana kite Kawanatanga kia whiriwhiria. 3 o Noema, 1898.

No. 195 (Henare Kaihau). Xi te Honore Tumuaki me nga mema o Te Whare o Earo c noho huihui ana i roto i te Paremete o Niu Tireni. Te pitihana a nga tangata Maori o Niu Tireni c mau ake nei o ratou ingoa, c whakaatu ana:— 1. E whakahe ana o koutou kai-pitihana a c mea ana kia kaua c paahitia c to koutou Whare honore te Pire i whakatotoria atu ki o koutou aroaro c te Raiti Honore te Hetana, Pirimia o Niu Tireni, c karangatia nei te ingoa, ko " Te Ture Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, 1898." 2. Ko te nuinga o nga Maori ingoa nunui c tautoko ana i taua Pire he tangata kaore rawa c paangia c taua Pire, i runga i te mea he tangata ratou kua oti te whakatakoto atu he ture motuhake kite Paremete hei whakaora i a ratou, he tangata ranei kua oti o ratou whenua te mokete atu kite Kai-tiaki o te Katoa, he tangata ranei kaore rawa atu o ratou nei toenga whenua. 3. He maha nga take i whakahe ai o koutou kai-pitihana ki tena Pire, ko nga tino take enei c whai ake nei, ara: — («.) E tuku rawa ana taua Pire i o ratou whenua ki tetahi Poari c motu whakarere ana kite Kawanatanga te mana whakahaere, a tena taua Poari c hapai i ona mana whakahaere hei painga mo nga tikanga whakanohonoho tangata, kaore c whakaaro nui kite whakahaere hei painga mo nga Maori nona te whenua. (6.) I runga i nga kupu o taua Pire, c ahei ana te tokomahatanga kautanga o nga tangata Maori o roto i tetahi rohe takiwa, tena pea c tupono he tangata kuare kore mohio kite whakahaere i o ratou mea, kite peehi i te hiahia o nga tangata tokoiti, tena pea c tupono he tangata i akona kite matauranga, he tangata mohio, kia kaua rawa ratou c whai reo mo te whakahaerenga o o ratou whenua. (c.) Ko ena kupu c takahi anai te aronga o nga kupu me te tikanga o te whakaaro i hanga ai te Tiriti o Waitangi, me nga mana c tau ana ki nga iwi Maori i te mea kua ponongatia ratou no te Kingitanga o Ingarangi. (d.) Ko taua Poari c korerotia nei ka riro ko te Kawanatanga anake te mana nui kite whakahaere i a ia, ma hoki ka riro ma te Kawanatanga c whakabua ana tangata tokorua i pai ai hei mema mo te Poari me te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna hei Tiamana, a ka utua anaketia ki nga mema Maori i pootitia ko nga utu mahi, me nga utu haerere tera c whakaaetia c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera, me te whai mana kite whakamutu i te tuunga o te mema, ahakoa i te hea taima o tona mematanga, mehemea kite kiia i mahi he taua tangata. («.) E wehi ana o koutou kai-pitihana ki nga mana c taea ai te nama moni c mau ana i roto i taua Pire, me nga tikanga whakahaere whenua, tena c whakahaerea hei tautoko i nga aronga whakaaro whakanohonoho tangata era c hapaingia c te Kawanatanga o taua wa, kaore c ata whakahaeretia hei painga mo nga iwi Maori nona te whenua, a tena pea, kite rawa ake ratou kua oti o ratou whenua te waiho atu hei punga whakapumautanga mo te whakaeanga o nga moni i namangia mo nga mahi ruri, hanga rori, piriti, me era atu tini whakapainga c utua ana i era atu wahi katoa o te koroni ki nga moni Topu o te Koroni, a c kohi moni ana hoki nga Maori ki roto ki aua Moni Topu o te Koroni. (jZ) E whakahe ana o koutou kai-pitihana kite tukunga, i runga i nga kupu o taua Pire, ki te Poari Whenua Maori, tena pea ka tupono he hunga kaore rawa nei o ratou mohiotanga ki nga tikaDga whakahaere whakawa, a tena pea hoki c riro i nga tohutohu a nga Kawanatanga i runga i nga ahua kua tohungia ake nei; i nga mana kite wawahi, kite whakatu riwhi tupapaku, kite whakatautau i nga hea paanga o te tangata, me te whakatu kai-tiaki, i runga i nga kupu o tekiona 21 o taua Pire. Eki ana ano hoki

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ratou kaore rawa he huarahi i roto i taua Pire c &hei ai te tangata kite tono whakawa tuarua mo te whakatau a te Poari mo runga i enei take nunui katoa. (fl.) Kaore ano kia whakaaturia mai ki o koutou kai-pitihana te aronga me te ahuatanga o te tekiona 47 o taua Pire, a ki ta ratou titiro ki taua tekiona, i te mea kaore kau he kupu hei whakaatu ki a ratou kaore i te pera, na reira ka wehi ratou tena c ekengia o ratou whenua c etahi tikanga taumaha o te ture kaore nei i te eke ki runga ki o ratou whenua i naianei. (h.) Tera te nuinga atu o nga whakahe a o koutou kai-pitihana ki taua Pire me ona tekiona, c mea ana ratou taihoa c ata whakamarama atu kia takoto atu tena pitihana a ratou kite aroaro o tetahi Komiti whiriwhiri o to koutou Whare honore. 4. Xi te titiro a o koutou kai-pitihana ka nuku ke noa atu nga taumahatanga hei whakaeanga ma ratou ki o ratou whenua i raro i taua Pire, i nga taumahatanga c utua ana kite Kooti Whenua Maori i naianei; a heoi ano te tukunga iho o taua Pire, mehemea ka paahitia eto koutou Whare honore, he tuturu muru rawa i o ratou toenga whenua kia ngaro rawa atu i a ratou. 5. Ko o koutou kai-pitihana, i runga i te pitihana kite Kuini me te Paremete o Niu Tireni, c whai kuputia nei i nga kupu timatanga o taua Pire, c hiahia ana kia whakatoea kia rahutia, nga morehu whenua c toe ana kia ratou hei oranga hei whenua tuturu mo ratou i runga i nga ritenga pumau rawa kei whenua koretia ratou ; engari, i runga i nga take kua oti nei te whakamarama ake, tae noa ki tona tini noa iho o etahi atu. take ano taihoa ake nei c ata whakamarama, c tino mohio tuturu ana ratou c kore rawa c rite tena hiahia i runga i nga huarahi c whakatakotongia ana c taua Pire c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Paremete. Na reira ka inoi atu o koutou kai-pitihana ki to koutou Whare honore kia kaua c whakaaetia c koutou te Pire c karangatia nei tona ingoa ko " Te Pire Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, 1898," a, kite kore koutou c whakaae ki tena, kaati, me pai to koutou Whare honore kite nuku i te whiriwhiringa o taua Pire ki tera tuunga o te Paremete c haere ake nei, kia whai takiwa ai o koutou kai-pitihana me era atu iwi Maori o te Kuini kite ata whiriwhiri marire i te aronga o taua Pire c mea nei kia tino whakarereketia rawatia atu to ratou ahua c noho nei hei iwi mo te Kingitanga o Ingarangi a hei tangata whai whenua hoki. Heoi ka inoi tonu a koutou kai-pitihana Hamioea Mangakahia me etahi atu c 6.

No. 196 (Mr. Kaihau). Xi a Te Pika me nga Honore Mema c noho huihui ana i roto i te Whare Paremete. E whakaatu ana o koutou kai-pitihana:— Tuatahi. —-E whakahe ana matou, tenei iwi Maori o Whanganui me ona rohe katoa, kite Pire Whakanohonoho whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori a te Kawanatanga, c huri atu nei i o matou whenua ki raro i te mana o te Poari i roto i tana Pire, notemea c tino mohio ana matou c kore rawa c puta he ora ki runga ki o matou morehu whenua i runga i nga tikanga whakahaerenga mokete c whakahaerea ana i raro i taua Pire. Tuarua.—E tino ki pono ana matou ko matou tonu c tino mate i raro i nga tikanga o taua Pire, notemea ko o matou whenua c rereke atu ana i era atu whenua, notemea hoki ko te ahua o matou whenua c rite ana kite kolahi hereni me te hikipene mo te eka; ko tona aronga ano tena o te wariu mo o matou whenua. Na reira c kore c kaha kite whakaea i nga mokete c tau ana ki runga. Tuatoru. —I runga hoki i nga tino taumahatanga o nga huarahi i whakaritea c taua Pire me utu nga mema o te Poari. Tuarua, ko te moni i namaia. Tuatoru, ko nga moni whangai. Na, c toru enei take hei tino peehi i o matou whenua, c kore ai c tino tuturu ki runga ki nga tikanga o te ora mo te hunga nona te whenua, engari hei tino painga mo nga mema o te Poari. Mo te hunga ake nona te whenua kaore kau he painga. Tuawha.—Ko te hiahia me te tumanako o te whakaaro c tika ana kia katia nga hoko i tenei taima, i runga ano hoki ite whakaaro o taua Pire. Engari hapainga atu ana o matou whenua ki roto kite mokete, rahui ai, takoto ai, c kore rawa c taea te unu mai ki waho ma te uru rawa ki roto ki taua ahi whanariki kainga ai, a c wha tekau ma rua nga tau c whakamatautauria ai te oranga mai ranei te matenga atu ranei. He tino matnae nui rawa tenei take, ki runga ki a matou me o matou whenua. Koia matou ka kii pono atu kaua tenei Pire c pa ki a matou, ki nga iwi c noho atu nei i te Tai Hauauru. Ka inoi tonu ou pai-pitihana. Wiaei Topia me etahi atu 113.

No. 197, 1898 (Mr. Kaihau). Xi te Tumuaki me nga Honore Mema o te Whare o Earo c noho huihui ana i roto iTe Paremete o Niu Tireni: Tena koutou. Ko te pitihana tenei a nga tangata Maori o Niu Tireni kua hainatia nei o ratou ingoa ki raro nei, c whakaatu ara:— Ko matou ko nga iwi, ko nga hapu, me nga rangatira, tane wahine, c noho ana i te takiwa o te Tai Hauauru, a kua tuhi nei i o matou ingoa ki tenei pitihana, c whakatu pono ana ki to koutou Whare Rangatira i tenei take ka tuhia iho nei c matou, ara : (1.) Kua kite matou i te Pire Poari a te Pirimia me tona Kawanatanga i whakatakoto ai ki nga marae o nga hui a te iwi Maori i o ratou huihuinga. (2.) Kua tino matakitaki o matou whakaaro ki nga tino putake o roto i taua Pire, ahe tino nui atu te mate o matou whenua mehemea ka w r hakaaetia c matou taua Pire kia paahitia, i te mea hoki ko nga wahi papatupu o matou whenua kaore nei ano i taka ki roto i nga ringaringa o te Kooti Whenua Maori ka tino horoia atu te ahua papatuputanga c mau nei ki o matou whenua. Heoi kau te wahi i kitea iho i roto i nga whakamarama o taua Pire te ahua pai, ko te whakakahoretanga i te Kooti Whenua Maori me te hoko hoki i nga whenua kite Karauna kite Pakeha noa iho

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ranei. Otira ko te wahi i uaua ai te whakaaetanga mo tenei wahi ko te kiinga kia paahi rawa taua Pire Poari katahi ka whakakahoretia taua Kooti Whenua Maori me taua hoko. Na reira ka ki penei matou : Kaore he wahi o tenei Pire c whakaaetia ana c matou; puta noa nga takiwa katoa o te Tai Hauauru c tino whakahe ana matou ki tenei Pire Poari. Tana Taingakawa me etahi atu c 5,975.

No. 326 (Mr. Kaihau). Pitihana a Toatatta te Ake me etahi atu c 3,390. He rite tonu nga korero o tenei pitihana ki nga korero o te pitihana No. 197 a Tana Taingakawa me etahi atu c 5,975 (Tirohia i tera).

No. 347,1898 (Mr. Kaihau). Xi te Honore Tumuaki me nga Mema Honore o te Whare o Earo c noho huihui ana i roto i te Paremete. Te pitihana a nga tangata Maori o Niu Tireni kua haina nei i o ratou ingoa ki raro nei c whakaatu ana, — 1. Kua whakaaturia mai ki a motou c nga Niupepa kua paahitia c to koutou Whare Honore te panuitanga tuarua o te Pire Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, a kua tukua atu taua Pire kite Komiti mo nga Mea Maori. 2. Kei te mohio te iwi Maori ka ata tiakina paitia ano c to koutou Whare Honore nga mea katoa c pa ana ki nga morehu o te iwi Maori, a c kore rawa c tautokona c koutou nga Pire me nga ture c hanga ana hei mate mo matou. 3. Kua tirohia c matou a kua ata korerotia mai ano hoki ki a matou te whakarapopototanga o te Pire i tuhatuhaina nei c te Piriinia, a i whai korerotia nei c ia i etahi hui Maori i tv ki nga takiwa o te Motu nei. 4. Kei te tino whakaae matou kei te tino koa hoki kite kupu i kiia na me mutu rawa atu te hoko a te Kawanatanga i nga whenua a nga Maori, pera ano me te araitanga i te hoko a nga tangata ra waho i araitia nei i runga i nga tikanga o " Te Ture Kooti Whenua Maori, 1894." 5. Ka taea taua tikanga te whakarite, ki ta matou whakaaro, mehemea ka hanga c to koutou Whare honore tetahi Pire c whakahau ana kia mutu rawa te hoko a te Kawanatanga i nga whenua Maori. 6. E tino whakahe ana matou ki era atu tikanga katoa c mau ana i roto i taua Pire, a c tino kaha rawa atu ana ta matou whakahe ki nga mana c tukua ana c taua Pire ki nga Poari whakahaere whenua Maori, ko nga putake i whakahe ai matou koia tenei etahi c whai ake nei: («.) Ko te mana 0 o matou whenua, i tuku iho nei i o matou tipuna tae iho ki a matou, i whakapumautia nei ki a matou 1 raro i te Tiriti o Waitangi, ka murua kinotia atu i a matou i runga i tena Pire, a tona tikanga ka tukuna noatia atu kite Karauna. (6.) Ko aua Poari kite mahara iho tena c hangaia i runga i etahi aronga c kore ai c ata taea te whakahaere pai te whakahaere tika ranei o o matou whenua, tona tukunga iho ka pa he mate taumaha rawa ki runga ki a matou, tetahi mate nui whakaharahara, c kore c roa rawa kua kitea te tino hinganga c mate rawa ai c ngaro rawa ai te iwi Maori, (c ) I raro i nga tikanga o taua Pire, ka araia atu i te iwi Maori te mana c tukuna nei ki ia tangata c haere maia ai ia c whakawhirinaki ai ia ki a ia ano hei whakaora i a ia, c mohiotia nei koia tena tetahi mea nui c tupu nui ai nga iwi, a i te mea he iwi piri pono te Maori kite Karauna he iwi i pai tana whakahaere i a ia i nga tau kua huri nei, na reira kaore c tika kia hangaia he tikanga kino c pa motuhake ana kite iwi Maori anake. E tono atu ana matou ki to koutou Whare honore kia kaua c paahitia tenei Pire hei ture, a tenei ka tukua c matou enei take kia ata whiriwhiria paitia c koutou : (1.) Me hanga he rahui kia rahi noa atu hei oranga mo nga iwi Maori i roto i nga morehu whenua c toe nei ki nga iwi Maori. (2.) Ko nga Maori kore whenua katoa na nga raupatu a te Kawanatanga na runga ranei i nga hoko whenua a te Kawanatanga i noho kore whenua ai me whakawhiwhi ki etahi wahi whenua o te Karauna c rite ana hei oranga mo ratou. (3.) Kua tino tae tenei kite wa c tika ana kia ata whakaritea te tv o nga iwi Maori kite tv o nga iwi Pakeha o te Kuini me te whiwhi tahi ki nga painga katoa c tau ana ki nga iwi c ata noho ana c aro nui ana kite hapai i te ture, c aro nui ana hoki kite whakamama ake i nga taumahatanga o te koroni. Na reira ka inoi atu o koutou kai-pitihana ki to koutou Whare honore kia makaia atu ki waho o te Whare te Pire i whakatakotoria atu nei c te Raiti Honore te Pirimia kite Whare, a kia paahitia tetahi ture hei whakaora i te iwi Maori. A ka inoi tonu a koutou kai-pitihana. Na Taaee Pobotene, me etahi atu c 41.

No. 355, 1898 (Mr. Kaihau). Xi te Honore Pika me nga Mema Honore o te Ennanga Nui c noho huihui ana i roto i te Whare Paremete i Poneke : Tena koutou. Kia mohio koutou he whakaaetanga tenei na matou i raro nei mo te turaki i te koia ka tuhia o matou ingoa ki raro iho nei. Henabe te Atua me etahijatu c 98.

No. 373, 1898 (Mr. Kaihau). He inoi atu tenei na o koutou kai-pitihana ki to koutou Komiti honore, c noho huihui ana i Poneke : Tena koutou. E whakahe ana matou kite pitihana a Ihaka Kemara c mea nei kia whai mana te Poari ki nga whenua Maori c tae nei nga eka kite 10,000 haere ake ki runga; no reira o koutou kai-pitihana

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ka inoi atu ki to koutou Komiti honore kia whakahengia taua pitihana, notemea kaore i whakamaramatia nga ritenga o taua pitihana c Ihaka Kemara kia marama ai nga kai-tautoko i taua pitihana. Heoi te whakamarama a taua Ihaka Kemara he pitihana awhina tautoko hoki i te pitihana a te iwi katoa c mea nei kia hinga te Pire Poari ate Pirimia. Koia o koutou kai-pitihana ka inoi tonu atu kia turakina atu. Koia ka tuhia iho ki raro i tenei pitihana o matou ingoa. Teiba Waibau me etahi atu 145.

No. 232. — Pitihana a Taituha Hape me etahi atu kotahi rave waru o te Hapu o Ngaitahu, Kaiapoi. E inoi ana nga kai-pitihana kia kaua c pa ki Te Waipounamu te ture hove meatia nei kia mahia mo nga whenua Maori. Kua whakahaua ahau kia ki penei, kite whakaaro o te Komiti me tuku atu tenei pitihana kite Kawanatanga kia whiriwhiria. 3 o Noema, 1898. •

No. 232, 1898 (Mr. Parata). Xi te Tumuaki me nga Honore Mema o te Whare Paremete o Niu Tireni c noho huihui ana ki Poneke: Tena koutou. He pitihana tenei na matou na te iwi o Ngaitahu c noho huihui ana ki Kaiapoi. ~ E pitihana ana o koutou kai-pitihana mo te Pire i puta i te Kahiti o te 5 o nga ra o Mci, i te tau 1898, ko te Pire c kiia ana ko "Te Whakarapopototanga i nga tikanga o te Ture Tiaki Whakahaere hoki i nga whenua Maori" (ara, ko te Poari whakahaere i nga whenua Maori). Kia kaua c pa mai ki a matou ki Te Waipounamu nei, i runga i tenei take: Ko o matou paanga whenua he iti noa iho c hoatu rawa ai ma te Poari c whakahaere, ka taea noatia iho c matou te whakahaere —ma hoki: Kaore ano i puta he raruraru i waenganui i a matou me o matou kai-riihi i enei tau kua hori ake nei. A ka inoi tonu o koutou kai-pitihana. Kaiapoi, Hurae, 1898. Taituha Hape me etahi atu 108.

NGA KORERO O TE KOMITI.

Wenebei, 28 o Hepetema, 1898. PITIHANA A HAMIORA MANGAKAHIA ME ETAHI ATU. Te Heuheu, kai-korero mo te taha ki a Ngati-Tuwharatoa, Whanganui, Te Arawa, Ngati-Kaukawa, me Ngati-Maniapoto (nga iwi c whakahe ana kite Pire), ka patairia. Te Tiamana : E hiahia ana ahau kia mohio nga Maori kua huihui mai nei ki konei c mea ana ahau me korero takitahi ia tangata o ratou i ona whakaaro mo tenei Pire Maori, a c tono atu ana ahau i naianei ki ia tangata kai-korero o tena takiwa, o tena takiwa, kia whakahangaitia pototia ana kupu ki runga anake kite take o te korero mo tenei Pire, ahakoa no te taha tautoko ia no te taha whakahe ranei. Te Heuheu ; Kia orate Tiamana me nga mema honore ote Komiti. Te mea tuatahi c hiahia ana ahau kite whakatakoto atu kite aroaro o tenei Komiti, he tono atu naku kia whakamanania mai c ratou te pitihana i hainatia c nga tangata tokowhitu ko Hamiora Mangakahia nei te ingoa tuatahi (No. 195). Kia whai korero whakamarama ahau mo etahi take kaore nei i ata marama ki taku titiro i roto i taua pitihana, katahi ka tae taku korero kite Pire net. lav c korero ana mo te pitihana tera ano au c tohutohu haere i etahi o nga tekiona ote Pire. Kaore au ite mohio kua whiwhi ranei nga mema katoa ote Komiti ite kape o taua pitihana kua whakahuatia ake nei c ahau. Te wani tuatahi o te pitihana ka whakamaramatia c au ko te tekiona tuarua, ara, ko nga kupu c ki penei ana. '• 2. Ko te nuinga o nga Maori ingoa nunui c tautoko ana i taua Pire, he tangata kaore rawa c paangia ana c taua Pire, i runga i te mea he tangata ratou kua oti te whakatakoto atu he ture motuhake kite Paremete hei whakaora i a ratou, he tangata ranei ratou kua oti o ratou whenua te mokete atu kite Kai-tiaki ote Katoa, he tangata ranei kaore rawa atu o ratou toenga whenua." E hiahia ana ahau kite whakamarama atu kite Komiti kaore he take i peratia ai nga kupu o tena tekiona o te pitihana, notemea c penei ke ana te tikanga: Kaore rawa atu etahi o matou c whakaae ana ki taua Pire, engari tera etahi o matou c tautoko ana i nga menemaua i whakaaetia c nga iwi Maori ite hui ki Papawai. E hiahia ana ahau kite whai kupu i naianei mo tekiona 3a o taua pitihana. 1. Hon. Timi Kara : E hiahia ana ahau kia marama to korero mai kite Komiti mo tekiona 2 o te pitihana. E unuhia ana c koe taua tekiona, c whakatikatikaina ana ranei c koe, c peheatia ana ranei ? Te Heuheu : Te take i ki ai ahau c kore matou c whai kupu mo tena tekiona o te pitihana i naianei koia tenei: I mahara matou ka whakaurua ki tenei Pire nga menemana ate hui ki Papawai i mahi ai mo te Pire tuatahi a te Pirimia, kia uru rawa era, katahi tenei Pire ka whakatakotoria kite Paremete, engari no to matou kitenga i te whakamaoritanga o tenei Pire kite iho ana matou kaore rawa tetahi o nga menemana i mahia ki Papawai i uru ki tenei Pire. Na reira kaore he tikanga c korero ai tatou mo tera tekiona. 2. Hon. Timi Kara ; Engari kei te takoto tonu te kupu c ki ra c kore tenei Pire c pa ki aua Maori. E mea ana au me whakamarama haere c koe te tikanga o tena kupu ?

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Te Heuheu : Kaati, ka whakamarama ahau i te ritenga o nga kupu o taua tekiona c ki ra ko nga tangata c tautoko ana i tena Pire he tangata c kore c mate i taua Pire. Tuatahi ko Wi Pere. Kei te mohio tatou i hanga tetahi ture c te Paremete i mua ake nei mo Mangatu Poraka, ko taua whenua no Wi Pere. Haiti Hon. Te Hetana (Te Pirimia): Ka ara i au tenei take hei titiro ma te Komiti, ara, c kore rawa tatou c tika kite whakarongo ki nga kupu whakapae mo nga mema, c penei ana te ahua, ara, tahuri ke ai nga mema kite hanga painga mo o ratou ake tinana ma mahia nga ture. Xi taku whakaaro, kaua nga korero pena c homai ki konei. E penei ana te aronga ote korero aTe Heuheu, c tika noa atu ana a Wi Pere kia tautoko i tenei Pire, notemea i tupato a Wi Pere mo te taha ki a ia ake i mua, i paahitia ai te Ture mo Mangatu Poraka. Kapene Bahera : -Ehara ite mea ko Wi Pere anake te tangata nona a Mangatu. E rima mano nga Maori c paangia ana. Te Tiamana: Xi taku titiro he kupu whakamarama kau tera nana i te tikanga o tana korero. Hon. Timi Kara : I whakamarama te kai-whakahoki patai, i te tuatahi, kua rereke to ratou ahua i naianei. Na tekiona 2 i tino whakatutuki. I naianei kua whakatikatikaina etc kai-whakahoki patai tera ite mea kua kite ratou ite Pire i muri nei, na reira kua hiahia te kai ; whakahoki patai kite whakatikatika i taua tekiona. Te take i tuhia ai c ratou taua tekiona he mahara no ratou kua paangia te tinana o Wi Pere c nga ture kua oti te hanga i mua atu. Haiti Honore Te Hetana (te Pirimia) • Kaati ra, mehemea kaore ana kupu whakapae mo nga mema o te Komiti, c pai ana. Te Heuheu : Ko te Ture Whakatikatika i vga Ture Whenua Maori, 1897, ki ta matou titiro, nate pitihana a Wi Pere me ona hoa tokorima i kaha ai te aki atu a te Komiti kia paahitia taua Ture c te Paremete hei whakaora i a ratou ko ona hoa tokorima. Wi Pere : A notemea i whakaorangia ahau na reira ka riri koe ? Te Heuheu : Ko Tamahau tetahi tangata. Kua rongo matou kei te pera hoki ia—ko ona whenua kua riro ki raro i nga whakahaere ate Kai-tiaki ote Katoa Ko Henare Tomoana ano hoki tetahi. E mohio ana matou kei te riihi ona whenua katoa. A tera ano hoki tetahi Ture motuhake i paahitia mo te Rahui ote Karamu. Kaati ka whakaatu ahau kite Komiti ko enei nga tino tangata i roto ite hui ki Papawai nana i aki atu kia tahuri nga tangata kite tautoko i tenei Pire, ana ratou tonu enei menemana i paahitia nei c taua hui. Mo te taha ki nga kupu ote pitihana epa ana ki nga tangata kore whenua, kaore au c whai kupu mo ratou. Ka mutu i ena aku kupu mo tera tekiona ote pitihana. Hon. Timi Kara ; Kaore te kai-korero c mohio ana kite pono o nga kupu o taua tekiona ote pitihana—e ki nei he tangata kore whenua te nuinga o nga kai-pitihana. Kaore te kai-korero c mohio ana he tika ranei kaore kau he whenua o etahi o nga kai-pitihana. Te Heuheu : E penei ana taku korero : tera atu nga kai-korero kei muri i a au c mohio ake ana i aau hei korero mo ena ahua tangata. Ka pa no toku takiwa ena tangata, no te Tai Hauauru, tena au c mohio kite korero mo ratou. Kapene Bahera : He mangai te kai-whakahoki patai mo te hea takiwa ? Hon. Timi Kara .- Mo Taupo. Te Heuheu : Ka haere taku korero i naianei mo te tekiona 3a o te pitihana, ara, tera wahi o taua tekiona toru c ki ana c tino tukua atu ana te mana o o matou whenua, c taua Pire c whakahengia nei, ki raro kite mana ote Poari. Taku kupu mo tera wahi ote pitihana c penei ana, kei te tekiona 7 o te Pire me ona wahanga tekiona (1), (2), me (3), c ki ana kia tokorua nga mema Maori mo taua Poari, a kia tokorua nga mema Pakeha, apiti atu kite Tiamana ka tokotoru nga mema Pakeha, apiti atu ki tana pooti whakatau. Ka wha ai ena pooti kei nga Pakeha aka rua tonu kei nga Maori. Kapene Bahera: He pooti whakatau anake ta te Tiamana: Ka toru ano ena pooti. Kaore kau ana pooti whiriwhiri. Te Heuheu: Mehemea koia tena —ara, he pooti whakatau anake ta te Tiamana kaore ana pooti whiriwhiri —kaati, kua tuturu tena, c toru Pakeha, c rua Maori. Tena pea i he ta matou titiro ki taua tekiona engari i mahara matou ko tona tikanga c wha rawa nga pooti kei te taha Pakeha. Tuarua, ko te tino take i ki ai matou ka riro rawa atu o matou whenua oti atu kite Poari, ko te whakatuunga i te Komihana mo nga Whenua o te Karauna, mo te takiwa i takoto ai te whenua c mahia ana, hei Tiamana hei upoko hoki mo taua Poari, na reira, ki ta matou titiro, ka riro anake i te hiahia ote Tiamana nga whakahaere. A tenei tetahi mea c wehingia ana c matou :Ko te tuunga ote Komihana mo nga whenua o te Karauna hei Tiamana, he apiha hoki ia na te Kawanatanga, na reira kaore c kore te whakaritea eia nga mahi ote Poari ki nga mea c hiahiatia ana etc Kawanatanga. Ara, me ki noa ake, kei te noho tetahi Poari pera i whakaturia i raro ite mana o taua tekiona 7, kite whakahaua mai kia mutu atu nga take Maori ki runga i taua whenua, ki taku whakaaro ka taea c raffcou te pera i raro i taua tekiona—ara, te patu rawa atu i nga mana Maori me nga take kite whenua. Na hei tautoko i tena titiro aku, koia tenei, ki taku whakaaro c ahei ana kia whakamutua etahi o nga mema o taua Poari ahakoa Maori ahakoa Pakeha ranei, mehemea ka kitea c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera tetahi take c whakamutua ai ratou. E kaha ana ahau kite ki penei j naianei: kite kore c rite nga mahi me nga whakaaro a tetahi mema ki nga hiahia ki nga whakaaro ranei o te Kawanatanga ka kaha noa atu ratou kite whakamutu i taua mema. Te tuatoru o nga take i wehi ai matou kei riro te mana o o matou whenua oti atu kite Poari koia tenei : E whai mana ana te Poari kite nama moni. Ko ta matou whakahe ki tena kaore rawa he kupu ma nga tangata no ratou te whenua c taea te hoatu kite Poari mo runga i tana whakatau, ara, me nama ranei he moni kaua ranei. Ara, kaore ratou c marama ana kua whakaritea ranei tetahi atu tikanga mo tenei i tetahi atu wahi o te Pire kaore ranei. E whakaae ana matou kia namaia te moni c £5,000, tetahi moni iti iho ranei, ta ratou ranei c whakaae ai. Xi ta matou whakaaro he tino mea nui rawa tenei. Tuawha o nga take iki ai matou ka riro atu nga take katoa o matou whenua i tenei Pire, ko te rironga ma tenei Pire c horoi atu nga nama katoa o era atu Ture tawhito i puritia ai aua whenua, ara, o matou taitara i puta ki a matou i runga i nga Karauna karaati, i nga memoriara, me era atu tv taitara. Ko era ahua mana katoa c mohiotia ana c nga Pakeha tona ingoa nui he taitara ka horoia katoatia atu a ka homai ko nga taitara

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c whakaputaina ana i raro i tenei Pire hei riiwhi mo era. Te tuarima o a matou take ko te kupu nei "fee-simple," kei tekiona 19, wahanga (a). Ko te tikanga o tena kupu ote fee-simple ki ta matou whakaaro he tino horoinga rawatanga atu i nga take Maori katoa i runga i o ratou whenua, a he tino tuku whakarere atu kia tau kite Poari anake te mana o nga whenua. Na ite mea'kei te pera te tikanga o te Pire, ki ta matou titiro, ka taea c te Poari te whakahaere, te tuku, te aha ranei, i aua whenua, i runga ita te Poari i pai ai. Ka taea etc Poari te tuku hei punga moni c namaia ana etc Poari i Ingarangi i tetahi peeke ranei c riro mai ai he moni i a ratou, notemea kaore rawa c taea c te tangata te kati o taua mahi te tohutohu atu ranei kite Poari i etahi atu huarahi c whakahaerea ai nga whenua, ite mea kua riro tuturu kite Poari anake te mana ote whenua. Ka ahei te Poari kite tuku atu ite whenua hei whakanohonohoanga kite tangata, me era atu mahi pera c paingia ana cte Poari; aki ta matou whakaaro kite riro ma te Poari c whakanohonoho nga whenua kua riro atu ki roto ki tona ringa, ko nga moni c puta ana i runga i taua mahi whakanohonoho tangata ka riro i te Poari, a ka whakapaua c ratou ki runga ki nga rori me nga whakapainga me era atu mea c whakaaturia ana i roto ite Pire. Kaati, ki ta matou titiro, mehemea kite peratia he tikanga c whakapaua ai aua moni, c kore rawa pea c toe he moni hei tuhatuha ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua. Ko te take tena i ki ai matou ka tuturu murua rawatia atu c tenei Pire o matou take me o matou mana ki o matou nei whenua. Ka whai kupu ahau i naianei mo te rarangi (b) o tekiona 3 o te pitihana, " I runga i nga kupu o taua Pire c ahei ana le nuinga o nga tangata o roto i tetahi rohe takiwa, tena pea c tupono he tangata kuare kore mohio kite whakahaere i o ratou mea, kite peehi ite hiahia o nga tangata tokoiti o taua takiwa ano, tena pea c tupono he tangata i akona kite matauranga, he tangata mohio, c kore rawa ai taua hunga tokoiti c whai reo ki runga i nga whakahaerenga o o ratou whenua." Ara, ka araitia matou c tenei Ture c kore rawa ai matou c kaha kite whakatutuki i a matou ake tikanga; me o matou whakatupuranga tamariki i muri i a matou, tena c tupono he mea ako i nga kura a kua whiwhi i nga matauranga i aua kura, ka peehia ki raro a c kore rawa c whai reo ki runga ki ena whakahaerenga. Koia tenei tona tikanga: Tuatahi, ka araitia matou c tenei Pire c kore ai c puta to matou kaha kite whakaora i a matou. Kaati, ko te tua ngaherehere tetahi mahi c mohiotia ana hei huarahi c puta ai he moni ki nga Maori, a c araitia ana tera tv mahi ma matou c tenei Pire ; c kore matou c ahei kite whakatupu rakau whai hua ki runga ki o matou whenua, c kore matou c ahei kite mahi witi, oti, taewa, me era atu kai, kite whakatupu kau, hipi, poaka, hoiho me era atu tv kararehe, c araitia katoatia ana enei mahi a matou c tenei Pire. Kaati, ite mea ka pena te ahua, he aha te painga i akona ai a matou tamariki ki nga kura Kawanatanga kia whiwhi ai ratou ite matauranga, kia mohio ai ratou kite whakahaere pai i o ratou whenua hei tika mo ratou me o ratou uri i muri i a ratou. 4. Hon. Timi Kara : Kua tirohia c koe a wahanga (4) o tekiona 18 o te Pire ? Te Heuheu: Ac ;ka whai kupu au mo tena akuanei. Engari c mea ana au me maro tonu taku c korero nei. Ko tetahi tena o nga tikanga kei roto ite Pire nei c tino "[ kaha ana ta matou whakahe. Mehemea tera tetahi tangata he maha ona paanga ki etahi poraka nunui, kaore rawa he huarahi c tuwhera ana ki taua tangata i raro i tenei Pire c kaha ai ia kite whakapai i aua paanga whenua ona -ahakoa hiahia ia kite pera. Me whakarite ko au tonu hei tauira. Ahakoa te kore kaore c rite ana te pai o nga whenua otoku takiwa ki nga, whenua"o etahi atu takiwa o te Motu nei, hei ritenga c marama ai taku korero, me ki noa ake ko ahau tetahi tangata c whai paanga ana ki nga poraka kotahi tekau kei te takiwa o Taupo, a i roto i ena poraka kotahi tekau ka hiahia pea ahau kite mahi kite whakapai i nga poraka c wha c rima ranei, ara, i nga whenua c tika ana hei nohoanga mo te tangata, he pai nga ngaherehere kite tua, he whenua pai hei whakatupuranga hipi, rakau whai hua ranei; engari kotahi anake o aua poraka c whakawhiwhia mai ki au c tenei Pire hei mahinga peratanga tnaku, ko taku tika ki era atu c iwa ka tangohia noatanga atu. Tetahi o a matou whakahe ki tenei tekiona ko te whai manatanga ote Poari kite muru atu i tetahi wahi onga paanga o nga tangata nona te whenua hei whakawhiwhi aiu mana ki nga Maori kore whenua; me tetahi wahi ano o taua tekiona c ki ana ko nga whenua c toe ana ma oti nga tangata nona te whenua tae noa ki nga tangata kore whenua te whakawhiwhi ki nga paanga mo ratou, ka riro ma te Poari c whakahaere aua toenga. Ehara ite mea c ki ana ahau ka murua atu to ratou whenua, engari ka whakawhiwhia te hunga kore whenua ki na whenua _o nga tangata whai whenua. Te ritenga hei painga mo te ao katoa ena kupu i whakaurua ai kite Pire. Hon. Timi Kara: Mehemea he rite katoa nga tono whenua, a kite whakaarohia he mea tika kia peratia, ka whakawhiwhia ko nga kai-tono kore whenua ite tuatahi. Koi nei anake te tikanga o tena tekiona o te Pire. Te Heuheu : Na, c tino marama ana ta matou titiro iho, kite whakatutukitia tenei Pire kia paahi rawa hei ture, koia tenei tona tikanga : ara, ka oti nga tangata whai whenua te whakawhiwhi ki nga w r ahi whenua c tonoa ra c ratou, me nga tangata kore whenua ki nga wahi whenua c tonoa ra c ratou kia hoatu mo ratou, ka toe ko nga wahi kino anake ote whenua. No reira ka kimi noa ake o matou whakaaro. Ka hiahiatia ano ranei c te tangata ena maunga me ena whenua kikino i toe, hei riihitanga hei ahatanga ranei, ma riro ki raro ite whakahaere a te Poari ? Koia tena te take i whakahe ai au ki tena tekiona. Ka tae tenei kite wahanga (c) o tekiona 3ote ta matou pitihana, " Ko ena kupu c takahi ana i te aronga o nga kupu me te tikanga o te whakaaro i hanga ai te Tiriti o Waitangi, me nga mana c tau ana ki nga iwi Maori i te mea kua ponongatia ratou mo te Kingitanga o Ingarangi." Kaore au c roa c korero ana mo tenei tekiona. Eki ana ahau ko to matou whakaaro mai ano o mua tae mai ki naianei c penei ana : ko te rarangi tuarua o te Tiriti o Waitangi te mea nana i whakapumau ki nga iwi Maori o ratou mana, me o ratou take ki o ratou whenua, nana i whakapumau ma ratou ano a ratou mea katoa c whakahaere. Otira, kei te mohio noa atu pea te Komiti ki taua rarangi tuarua ote Tiriti o Waitangi. Koia tenei ana tikanga i whakatakoto ai. "Ko te Kuini o Ingarangi ka whakarite ka whakaae ki nga rangatira, ki nga hapu, ki nga tangata katoa o Niu Tireni, te tino rangatiratanga o o ratou whenua o ratou kainga me o ratou taonga katoa. Otiia ko nga rangatira ote whakaminenga, me nga rangatira katoa atu, ka tuku kite Kuini te hokonga o era wahi whenua c pai ai te tangata nona te whenua, kite ritenga ote utu c whakaritea ai c ratou ko te kai hoko c meatia nei etc Kuini hei kai hoko mona." Na, ko te Pire c takoto nei ito tatou aroaro,

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tona tikanga he horoi rawa atu i nga mana i whakapumautia ra ki ngaiwi Maori c te Tiriti o Waitangi. Kei te mohio tatou kei te penei me enei c whai ake nei nga.kupu o tekiona 71 o te Ture Whakamana Parernete mo Niu Tireni o te tau 1852, ara : " And whereas it may be expedient that the laws, customs, and usages of the aboriginal or native inhabitants of New Zealand, so far as they are not repugnant to the general principles of humanity, should for the present be maintained for the government of themselves in all their relations to and dealings with each other, and that particular districts should be set apart within which such laws, customs, or usages should be so observed, it shall be lawful for Her Majesty, in and by any letters patent to be issued under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom, from time to time to make provision for the purposes aforesaid, any repugnancy of any such Native laws, customs, or usages to the law of England, or to any law, statute, or usage in force in New Zealand, or in any part thereof, in any wise notwithstanding." Hon. Timi Kara: I aua ra tikina atu ai he mana i raro i taua tekiona hei rohe atu, ma taea te pera, i etahi takiwa Maori, kia whakahaerea nga mea c pa ana ki nga Maori anake i raro i tetahi kaunihera i tetahi ropu takiwa ranei. Te Heuheu : Ko ena tika kaore ano kia whakahengia mai ano o te hainatanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi tae noa mai ki naianei, me nga Pakeha ano hoki kaore ano i whakahe noa. Xi ta matou whakaaro, na lenei Pire rawa, katahi auo ka whakamatauria te hanga tikanga hei muru atu i aua mana o matou, noternea kaore ano te whakaaetanga o nga raugatira me nga kaumatua c 512 i te wa i hainatia ai te Tiriti o Waitangi i te tau 1840 i whakahengia, me nga mahi a aua rangatira me aua kaumatua kaore ano i whakahengia, i runga i te tikanga wehewehe, pehea ranei, katahi tonu, no tenei ra tonu. Mehetnea kite whakaao matou ki tenei Pire i naianei, he whakahe tena na motou ite Tiriti o Waitangi. Koia tenei te hiahia o nga iwi Maori o Niu Tireni: E hiahia ana ratou kite tautoko i nga ture katoa c aro ana kite whakahaere kite whakatutuki i nga tika me nga mana i whakawhiwhia ki a ratou c te Tiriti o Waitangi me te Ture Whakamana Paremete mo Niu Tireni o te tau 1852. Kei te mohio pea tenei Komiti, tenei ano tetahi Bunanga Maori, ko te whitu tenei o ona tau c tv ana, ara, tona ingoa c mohiotia ana ko te Eunanga o te Kotahitanga, a ko nga tangata kua whakaae kite liapai i te Tiriti o Waitangi me ona rarangi c tae ana kite toru tekau ma whitu mano tangata. Kua oti katoa o ratou ingoa te haina kite kirihipi, hei tautoko ite pono ota matou korero c ki nei, kua whakakotahi ena tangata katoa kite hapai i te mana o te Tiriti o Waitangi me ona ritenga katoa. Kei te mohio pea tenei Komiti ki tetahi Pire, ara, ki etahi menemana whakatikatika i mahia etc hui ki Papawai, ito ratou tahuritanga kite whiriwhiri ite Pire tuatahi ate Pirimia. Me whakamarama atu c au kite Komiti nei, ko aua menemana me aua rarangi hou i mahia nei a i oti nei i taua hui ki Papawai, ehara i te mea mahi i runga i nga tikanga me nga huarahi whakahaere i whakatakotoria c ratou ite whakatuunga o taua hui. Ara, ehara aua menemana me aua rarangi hou ite mea mahi i te aroaro o te Pika me nga mema o te Kawanatanga i whakaturia c te Kotahitanga hei hunga whakahaere i nga mahi ote hui. Engari na tetahi wehenga anake o nga hapu i tae ki taua hui, na ratou anake i whiriwhiri aua menemana i runga ita ratou anake i whakaaro ai. Engari ko era atu o nga tan»ata i tae ki taua hui, nga tangata kaore nei i uru ki aua whakahaerenga tikanga, kaore nei i whakaae ki aua menemana, koia ena etahi c whakahe ana ki tenei Pire. Hei tautoko i aku korero i korero ai i mua ake nei, i ki nei au heoi ano te hiahia nui o nga iwi Maori he hapai, he whakau, he whakatutuki i te Tiriti o Waitangi me ona rarangi, me ki atu ahau, tenei tetahi Pire, otira kei te mohio pea te Komiti, kei o koutou aroaro hoki c takoto ana, na Henare Kaihau taua Pire i whakauru kite Whare, a ma taua Pire c whakaatu ko nga iwi o te Kauhanganui, ara, nga iwi o Mahuta, kei te hiahia kia whakatutukitia te Tiriti o Waitangi. Me kaati i konei aku kupu mo te rarangi (c) o tekiona toru ote pitihana. Ka whai kupu au i naianei mo te rarangi (c) o tekiona 3o te pitihana, eki nei " E wehi ana o kou kai-pitihana ki nga mana c taea ai te nama moni c mau ana i roto i taua Pire, me nga tikanga whakahaere whenua, tena c whakahaerea hei tautoko i nga aronga whakaaro whakanohonoho tangata era c hapaingia c te Kawanatanga o taua wa kaore c ata whakahaeretia hei painga mo nga iwi Maori nona te whenua, a tena pea, kite rawa ake ratou kua oti o ratou wheuua te waiho atu hei punga whakapumautanga mo te whakaeanga o nga moni i namangia mo nga mahi, ruri hanga rori, piriti, me era atu titii whakapainga c utua ana i era atu walii katoa o te koroni ki nga moni Topu o te Koroni, a c kohi moni ana hoki nga Maori ki roto ki aua Moni Topu ote Koroni." Ko wahanga (6) o tekiona 18 o te Pire c mea ana ka whai mana te Poari kite whakapau moni mo etahi mahi. Ko te tikanga o rarangi (c) o te pitihana c penei ana, c tino wehi ana matou nga kai-pitihana ki ena mana c hoatu ana etc Pire nei kite Poari. Kua whakamaramatta c au te take o to matou wehi kite rarangi (a) o tekiona 3 o te pitihana. Ka tae aku korero ki tekiona 26 ote Pire nei, B patai ana ahau kia ata whakamaramatia mai c te Komiti ki ahau he aha ra te tikanga o ona kupu. E penei ana nga kupu o taua tekiona, "Ko nga moni reti, moni paru, moni whii, me era atu moni c puta ana i nga whenua kua tau kite Poari Whenua Maori i raro i nga tikanga o tenei Ture me utu atu kite Poari, a, i runga ano i nga tikanga kua whakatakotoria, me whakahaere aua moni etc Poari." Kaore matou c mohio ana he aha te moni paru, he aha te moni whii. He aha te tikanga o ena kupu? He aha rawa ena mea? Ka nui to matou wehi ki tenei tekiona me nga mana c hoatu ana kite Poari c tenei tekiona puta noa ki ona wahanga tekiona c toru. Ko wahanga (1) o tekiona 34, eki ana, kia rima pauna moni mo ia rau pauna moni iia tau te initareti c utua mo nga moni c namaia ana. Ko tetahi tena o nga take i wehi ai matou ki nga mana c hoatu ana kite Poari c tenei Pire. E whakahe ana matou ki tena tikanga, kia tangohia nga moni c puta ana i nga whenua Maori hei whakaea i nga moni c namaia peratia ana. Ko tetahi tenei o nga take i mohio tuturu ai matou, kite riro atn te whenua i te Poari i runga i te mana o tenei Pire, ko te rironga atu tena c ngaro ai o matou whenua i a matou, c kore rawa c hoki mai ki a matou. Ka korero au i naiauei mo tekiona 42, "Ka kiia era he moni na te iwi katoa." Eki ana taua tekiona ko nga. moni katoa c tika ana kia utua atu ki taua kaute ka kiia era he moni na te iwi katoa —ara, na te koroni katoa —ara, ki taku mohio, ka riro aua moni hei taonga mo nga Pakeha katoa, mo nga mangumangu katoa, mo nga Hainamana, me era atu iwi katoa c noho ana i roto i te koroni o Niu Tireni. Na, ko aua mangumangu, aua Hainamana, me aua tangata Pakeha, kaore rawa i whai paanga ki nga whenua i hua mai ai aua moni; engari i runga ite ahua c meatia nei etc Pire, c hoatu ana ma

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ratou tetahi taha o nga moni i puta mai i o matou whenua. Tera ano etahi atu tekiona ote Pire hei korero atu maku ki a koutou. Kei roto i "Te Ture Whakapai Whenua Whakawhiwhi Whenua Maori, 1894," kei reira etahi tekiona c whakatakoto ana i nga huarahi c taea ai te nama he moni. E ki ana a tekiona 8 o taua Ture: " Me tango mai nga moni c rua rave rima tekau mano pauna i roto i nga moni ka whakamana a muri ake nei kia nama, ma nama aua moni, ka utu ai i aua moni ki roto kite Kaute mo te Katoa, a me whakawhiti atu i reira c te Tari mo nga Moni o te Koroni ki tetahi atu kaute motuhake ka huaina nei ko Te Kaute mo nga Whakapainga Whenua." Kaati, c ki ana a tekiona 47 o tenei Pire : " Ko tenei Ture kua tukuna ki raro i te mana o nga Ture c whai ake nei, ara, koia enei: 'Te Ture Hanga Reriwe me te Ture Whenua, 1881'; 'Te Ture Taake Whenua Taake Moni Puta-a-tau hoki, 1891 ';' Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui, 1894'; 'Te Ture Whakanohonoho Whenua kite Tangata, 1894 '; 'Te Ture Reiti, 1894 '; 'Te Ture Reiti Whenua i runga i tona Utu ake haunga ia nga Whakapainga, 1896.' " E pau katoa ana ki roto ki taua tekiona ena Ture katoa kaore hoki c whakaatu ake ana te Pire, ka tukuna ki raro kite hea wahi ranei kite hea wahi ranei o aua Ture, engari pau katoa ai aua Ture, kaore rawa he wahi i kapea ki waho. Na, ki ta matou titiro ka whai mana te Poari kite nama moni tae atu kite £250,000. Kaati, kia marama ai taku korero, me penei atu c au. Xi te whakahaerea he nama i runga i te aronga o nga tikanga o tenei Pire, ka whai manate Poari kite nama kia £200,000 i tenei tau, a kia tae ki tera tau ka nama ano i tetahi atu £200,000, a tae rawa atu kite wha kite rima ranei o nga tau ki muri nei c haere ana taua mahi c kore rawa c taea c nga whenua te whakaea o nga moni i namaia ra, i hoatu ra ko aua whenua hei punga. Kaere rawa he mea i roto ite Pire hei puripuri haere ite hiahia ote Poari kia ata haere ai tana nama moni. Me panui atu eau a tekiona 12, 16, me 18 ote Ture ote tau 1894. E penei ana nga kupu o tekiona 12, " I roto i nga moni c whakamana ana i raro iho nei kia nama, me utu kite Kaute Moni Kawanatanga kia rua rave rima tekau mano pauna ma nama, a me utu atu c te Tari Tiaki Moni ki tetahi kaute moni takoto motuhake, ka huaina ko " Te Kaute Moni Hoko Whenua Maori." Na, ko tekiona 16, c penei ana ona kupu, " Mo runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, ma whakamana te Minita mo nga Moni c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera, ka ahei ia i ia wa i ia wa, kite nama i etahi moni, kaua c nui ake ma huia katoatia i te rima rau mano pauna, me nama mai i nga toenga moni o nga kaute c whakahuatia nei i te Wahi VIII. o ' Te Ture mo nga Moni c puta mai ana kite Katoa, 1891,' i nga moni ranei c takoto ana kite kaute o nga Mahi Nunui o te Katoa, me nama te katoa tetahi wahi ranei i tetahi peeke. i tetahi whare whakahaere moni, i tetahi tangata ranei." E penei ana nga kupu o tekiona 18 me enei c whai ake nei, " Hei tikanga tiaki i aua moni i nama peratia, me ahei te Minita mo nga Moni, i ia wa i ia wa, kite mahi kite whakaputa hoki i etahi tipenetua mo nga moni kaua c nui ake ite rima rau mano pauna." Kaati, me hoki ano taku korero kite rarangi (c) o tekiona 3 o ta matou pitihana, i tahuri ahau kite whakamarama i nga take i wehi ai matou ki nga mana whakahaere nama moni c hoatu ana c tenei Pire kite Poari. Me haere taku whakamarama i naianei mo rarangi (_/') o tekiona 3 o ta matou pitihana : " E whakahe ana o koutou kai-pitihana kite tukunga, i runga i nga kupu o taua Pire, kite Poari Whenua Maori, tena pea ka tupono he hunga kaore rawa nei o ratou mohiotanga ki nga tikanga whakahaere whakawa, a tena pea hoki c riro i nga tohutohu a nga Kawanatanga i runga i nga ahua kua tohungia ake nei, i nga mana kite wawahi, kite whakatu riwhi tupapaku, kite whakatautau i nga hea paanga o te tangata, me te whakatu kai-tiaki, i runga i nga kupu o tekiona 21 o taua Pire Eki ana ano hoki ratou kaore rawa he huarahi i roto i taua Pire c ahei ai te tangata kite tono whakawa tuarua mo te whakatau a te Poari mo runga i enei take nunui katoa." Me whakamarama atu eauki te Komiti a matou whakahe kite hunga c kiia ana kia whakaturia hei Poari whakahaere i o matou whenua. Ko ta matou kupu tuatahi, kaore ena tv tangata c mohio kite whakaw r a take whenua. 5. Hon Timi Kara : He pai ake koia ki a koe te Kooti Whenua Maori c tv nei ? Te Heuheu : Taihoa tena, akuanei ano au korero ai mo tena. Ko tetahi mea i whakahe ai matou ko nga mema Maori o te Poari, me whiriwhiri i roto i nga tangata whiwhi whenua o roto i te takiwa o te Poari. Kaati, c whakaatu ana tena ko nga mema Maori tokorua o taua Poari he tangata c whai take ana ki etahi o nga poraka whenua o roto i taua takiwa ka tv nei raua hei tiati; c pewhea ana te aronga o tena ahua, kaore rawa era tangata c kore te hapai i o raua mohiotanga ake me o raua whakaaro ake mo o raua nei take ake tae atu ki nga take o nga hapu me nga iwi c whaipaanga ana ki nga whenua c takoto ana i roto i nga rohe o te takiwa ka tv nei raua hei mema mo te Poari whakahaere. Tuarua, me patai ahau, ka pewhea ranei to raua whakaaro ki a raua c tv nei hei mema mo tera Poari, mehemea he tangata ano raua c whaipaanga ana ki nga whenua ka riro nei ma raua c whakatau. Xi taku mahara, c tika noa atu ana tatou kia ki penei, kaore rawa c toitu nga whakaaro o ena tangata, kaore rawa raua c kore te whakahoa atu kite taha ki o raua whanaunga me o raua hapu, me o raua take ake, me o raua whakaaro ranei mo runga mo ta raua i mahara ai koi na o raua tika me o raua take. Tetahi, c kiia ana ko te whakatau ate Poari i rungai tana whakawakanga hei otinga rawatanga, kaore rawa he huarahi c whakaorangia ai nga tangata o te whenua mehemea ka he te whakatau a te Poari.

Taite, 29 o Hepetema, 1898. Tk Heuhett : ka haere tonu ana korero. 6. Te Tiamana : Me haere tonu o korero. Te JLeuheu : Taku kupu tuatahi he mihi atu, Ha orate Tiamana me nga mema o tenei Komiti. Kua tae taku korero i naianei kite tekiona 3 (/"), ota matou pitihana. He ruarua nei aku kupu hei whakamarama mo tera. I runga i taku titiro ki tenei Pire, ki toku nei mohio, kaore kau he Kooti hei whakawa tuarua i nga tona pera, a kaore kau hoki he Kooti Piira, a c kore ano hoki te Hupirimi Kooti c whai mana kite whakarereke i tetahi whakatau, ritenga ranei i mahia etc Poari. E whakaatu ana c tekiona 21 o te Pire nei, ka rite tonu te mana o te Poari c whakaturia ana i raro i tenei Pire ki te mana ote Hupirimi Kooti. E penei ana nga kupu o taua tekiona: "Ka pera ano te mana whakahaere o te Poari Whenua Maori ki runga ki nga whenua kua tau ki a ia me te mana whakahaere o te Kooti Whenua Maori, mo runga i te main wehewehe, whakatu kai-riiwhi, whakatau i te nui o te paanga 2—l. 3a.

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10

oia tangata, me te, whakatu kai-tiaki mo era o nga tangata whenua c noho hapa ana ite ture." Heoi ano aku kupu mo tena. Eki ana a tekiona 3 (y), ota matou pitihana, "Kaore ano kia whakaaturia mai ki o koutou kai-pitihana te aronga mete ahuatanga o te tekiona 47 o taua Pire a ki ta ratou titiro ki taua tekiona, i te mea kaore kau he kupu hei whakaatu ki a ratou kaore i te pera, na reira ka wehi ratou tena c ekengia o ratou whenua c etahi tikanga taumaha o te ture kaore nei ite eke ki runga ki o ratou whenua i naianei." Me panui atu c au i naianei a tekiona 47 o te Pire: "Ko tenei Ture kua tukuna atu ki raro i te mana o nga Ture c whai ake nei, ara, koia enei: ' Te Ture Hanga Reriwe me te Ture Whenua, 1881'; 'Te Ture Taaka Whenua Taake Moni Puta-a-tau hoki, 1891'; 'Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui, 1894'; 'TeTure Whakanohonoho Whenua kite Tangata, 1894'; 'Te Ture Reiti, 1894'; 'Te Ture Reiti Whenua i runga i tona Utu ake haunga ia nga Whakapainga, 1896 ' : Engari, mo runga i nga whenua katoa kua tau kite Poari, ka kiia ko te Poari te hunga no ratou te whenua mo runga i nga tikanga katoa o aua Ture ; a tetahi hoki, ka eke te mana o' Te Ture Whakanohonoho Whenua kite Tangata, 1894,' ki runga ki aua whenua rite tonu ki a ia c mana nei ki runga ki nga whenua o nga Pakeha noa iho." Me tohutohu atu ahau i konei, ko ena Ture katoa c whakahuatia ana i roto i taua tekiona, katahi tonu ka whakapaangia ki nga whenua Maori. Na ko nga Ture c whakahuatia ake nei nga ingoa i roto i taua tekiona, kei te mohio matou ki etahi; ko etahi kaore rawa matou ite mohio. I tahuri ano matou kite kimi i aua Ture kia mohio ai matou kite aronga, engari kaore rawa i taea c matou. Na reira, i runga ano i nga kupu o rarangi 3 (g) o ta matou pitihana, kaore ano matou kia whakaaturia c mohio ai matou kite aronga me te tikanga o tekiona 47, a, na kona, ka tuturu ta matou mahara, hei mate mo matou taua tekiona. Tera atu ano etahi tekiona o etahi atu Ture ano c whakaingoatia ana i roto i tenei Pire, a c kiia ana he wahi katoa ena no tenei Pire. Ko wahanga (11) o tekiona 9 o tenei Pire, c penei ana : " E kore 'Te Ture arai i nga Mema o te Paremete, 1878,' c pa ki nga mema Maori ote Poari." Na, ko tekiona 15 eki ana : "Kaua c utua he moni mo nga luihua i raro i 'Te Ture Whakawhiti Whenua, 1885,' ma rehitatia he taitara ma te Poari mo tetahi riihi i raro i i tenei Ture." Ko wahanga (5) o tekiona 18 cki ana :Me ahei te Poari kite tuku whenua kite Kuini hei mahinga mama i raro i" Te Ture Mama, 1891." Na, me korero ano hoki au mo tekiona 35 me tekiona 42. Eki ana a tekiona 35, " Hei huarahi c rite ai he moni hei tuku-a-natna i raro i tenei Ture, ka ahei noa atu te Minita mo nga Moni, i nga wa c tika ana hei peratanga, kite tiki atu i nga toenga o nga moni kei roto i nga kaute c whakahuatia nei nga ingoa i Wahi VIII. o ' Te Ture mo nga Moni Puta-a-tau kite Kawanatanga, 1891,' kei roto ranei i etahi atu kaute moni ate iwi c taea ana i runga i nga ritenga o te Ture te whakahaere ki runga ki nga punga c whakamanaia ana c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera, kite tiki atu ranei i etahi o nga Moni mo nga Mahi Nunui ote Koroni, kite nama moni ranei i tetahi peeke, i tetahi atu tari whakahaere moni ranei, i tetahi tangata ranei, otira i runga i tetahi i katoa ranei o aua huarahi." Ko tekiona 42 eki ana, "Ko nga moni katoa c takoto ana i ia kaute pera, c tika ana ranei kia utua atu ki ia kaute pera, ka kiia era he moni na te iwi katoa ote koroni i raro i nga tikanga o' Te Ture mo nga Moni Puta-a-tau kite Kawanatanga, 1591,' a ko nga tikanga katoa o taua Ture c pa ana ki nga moni a te iwi katoa me nga tangata c whakahaere ana i aua moni ka pa hoki ki nga moni katoa c whakahaerea ana i raro i nga tikanga o tenei Ture: Engari, haunga ia mehemea c ata whakahaua motuhaketia ana c tenei Ture, ko nga moni katoa c tika ana kia utua atu c taua kaute me utu atu i runga ite mana o tenei Ture." A ko wahanga (8) o tekiona 36 c ki ana, " Ka ahei te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera iia wa i ia wa kite panui kua whakawhitingia a katoa etahi ranei o aua tipenetua hei moni tuturu c whakaputaina ana i raro i ' Te Ture Whakatopu Moni, 1877,' i raro ranei i ' Te Ture Whakatopu Moni, 1884.' " 7. Hon. Timi Kara : He aha te take i whakahuahua haere ai koe i ena tekiona? Te Heuheu: E penei ana taku kupu : Ko tenei Pire c mea ana kia whai mana etahi tekiona maha o etahi atu Ture ki runga ki o matou whenua, a c whakaatu ake ana ahau i aua tekiona o aua Ture ? 8. Hon. Timi Kara : Ko tona tikanga c whakahe ana koe i te tekiona 47 o te Pire mo tana kumenga mai i te Ture Hanga Reriwe Ture Whenua hoki, i te Ture Taake Whenua Taake Moni Puta-a-tau hoki, i te Ture Reiti, me era atu ture ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; c pena ana taku korero, a c pena ana hoki a rarangi 3 (g), o ta matou pitihana, ara, c mea ana kaore ano nga kai-pitihana i whakaaturia kite tikanga o taua tekiona. Hon. Ttmi Kara : Kaore matou i te hiahia kia whakamaramatia mai ekoe nga tikanga o ia tekiona o te Pire. Te Maka : E tukuna o ratou paanga ki raro i te mana o nga Ture kua korerotia ake nei, a kaore ano ratou i mohio ki na tikanga o aua Ture. Te Heuheu: Akuanei ahau ka whakaatu ite take i korerotia ai eau enei tekiona. Ka haere tonu taku korero me taku whakamarama haere mo aua tekiona katoa. E penei ana nga kupu o tekiona 19 ote Pire, " Ina tupono he whenua kua tau kite Poari ka ahei noa atu te tango i taua whenua mo nga mahi ate iwi katoa c whakaaturia nei c tekiona rua rave toru tekau ma rima o 'Te Ture Whenua, 1892,' engari me utu taua whenua c tangohia ra, penei ano me te whenua c tangohia ana mo nga mahi a te iwi katoa a c utua ana i raro i te mana o ' Te Ture mo nga. Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, 1894 ' ; ahei huarahi c tino tutuki ai nga ritenga o tenei tekiona me pa nga tikanga c wahi ake nei: (a.) Ko nga whenua katoa kua tau kite Poari ka kiia he whenua era kua uru ki roto ki nga tikanga o 'Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, 1894,' a ka kiia he whenua era kua tuturu rawa kite Poari i runga ite vitenga fee-simple, (b.) I runga i nga tono whaka-utu katoa me tv ko te Poari hei kai-tono, ako nga moni katoa c whakaaetia ana hei whaka-utu me utu atu kite Poari. (c.) Ko nga moni whaka-utu katoa c utua ana kite Poari me whakahaere i runga i etahi tikanga c whai initareti ai c whai painga ranei mo nga Maori no ratou te whenua i runga ano i nga ritenga kua whakatakotoria, a ko nga hua c puta ana me whakahaere i runga ano i nga ritenga c whakahaerea ai nga hua o te whenua i tangohia ra, ano kaore i tangohia taua whenua. Ko nga tikanga o tekiona rua tekau ma waru me rua tekau ma iwa o tenei Ture me pa ki aua moni whaka-utu. (d.) I runga i nga ritenga o tenei tekiona, ko enei kupu ' mahi a te iwi katoa,' koia ano tera ona tikanga ko nga tikanga c whakaaturia ana mo aua kupu i roto i' Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui ote Koroni, 1894.' (2.) Kaua he kupu o tenei tekiona o tetahi atu wahi ranei o tenei Ture c arai c whakarereke ranei i nga tikanga o

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tekiona iwa tekau ma rua tae noa ki iwa tekau ma rima o ' Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, 1894,' me nga tekiona whitu tekau tae noa ki whitu tekau ma rua o 'Te Ture Kooti Whenua Maori, 1894,' c pa ana ki nga rori." Heoi ano aku kupu mo rarangi 3 (fl), ota matou pitihana. E penei ana nga korero o rarangi 4 ota matou pitihana: "Xi te titiro a o koutou kai-pitihana ka nuku ke noa atu nga taumahatanga hei whakaeanga ma ratou ki o ratou whenua i raro i taua Pire, i nga taumahatanga c utua ana kite Kooti Whenua Maori i naianei, a heoi ano te tukunga iho o taua Pire, mehemea ka paahitia c to koutou Whare honore, he tuturu muru rawa i o ratou toenga whenua kia ngaro rawa atu i a ratou." Ara, ko te whakapotonga o tena kupu c penei ana, ka nui ke atu nga moni c pau i te whakahaerenga o nga mahi i raro i tenei Pire i nga moni c pau ana i nga whakahaerenga mahi a te Kooti Whenua Maori. Koia enei etahi, ko nga utu tau me nga utu haereerenga mo nga mema tokorima ote Poari c meatia nei kia whakaturia etc Pire. Ko tekiona Bme tekiona 26 c tino hangai ana ki runga ki tena ahua. Eki ana a tekiona 8, "Me utu nga mema o nga Poari Whenua Maori ki nga utu tau me era atu utu tera c whakaritea c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera: Engari kaua te Komihana c utua, a heoi ano nga moni c whakapaua i raro i tenei tekiona ko nga moni anake c whakaritea ana c te Paremete i roto i nga moni c takoto ana i roto i te Kaute mo nga Moni Whenua Maori o taua takiwa ka huaina i raro ake nei." E penei ana nga kupu o tekiona 26, "Ko nga moni reti, moni paru, moni whii, me era atu moni c puta ana i nga whenua kua tau kite Poari Whenua Maori iraro i nga tikanga o tenei Ture me utu atu kite Poari, a, i runga ano i nga tikanga kua whakatakotoria, me whakahaere aua moni etc Poari." Na ko wahanga (1) o tekiona 32 o te Pire, c riro nei mana c whakamana te Poari kite tuku-a-nama i etahi moni, c penei ana ona kupu, "Me ahei te Poari Whenua Maori kite tuku atu kite Minita i tetahi pukapuka hei whakaatu atu i nga mahi c meatia ana kia mahia, me te rahi o nga moni c oti ai aua mahi, a me te tono atu kia tukuna-a-nama atu etahi moni ki a ratou kia rite te rahi ki nga utu o nga mahi c meatia ana kia mahia." Kaati, ki ta matou mohio i runga i ena tekiona ka utua nga mema o te Poari ki nga utu-a-tau, me o ratou utu haereerenga ano, ka utua i ia tau i iatau, a ko nga moni hei utunga atu ki aua tangata me puta i runga i nga whenua o nga Maori. 10. Te Tiamana : Kaore he utu tau c hoatu mo te Komihana ? Te Heuheu : E tika ana, koia tena te mea i kapea ki waho o nga ritenga c whakamaramatia nei c ahau. Me ki ake ahau, hei kupu whakarite, kia mohiotia ai te aronga o taku tohe c tohe nei, ara, kia waru rawa nga Poari Whenua Maori penei me nga Poari c whakaturia ana c tenei Pire katahi ka taea te whakahaere nga whenua Maori katoa i nga Motu c rua. Kaati, ka wha tekau rawa ena mema o ena Poari c waru ; ara, kia wha tekau nga Tiati hei whakawa i nga whenua Maori. Aka tika ano kia whakaarohia me whiwhi ano ia Poari ia Poari c waru i tana tari motuhake, me ana ropu apiha. Ko ena taumahatanga katoa c hangaia ana i raro i tenei Pire ka whakawahangia katoatia ki runga ki nga whenua Maori. Hei tautoko i taku korero, me ki atu ahau ko te Kooti Whenua Maori etu nei kaore rawa c tino penei ana te nui o nga moni c pau ana, i nga moni c pau i te Poari c whakatuungia ana c tenei Pire. Ina hoki, ki taku mahara, kaore pea c hipa ake ana ite tekau nga Tiati ote Kooti Whenua Maori. Tuarua, ko nga Ateha ote Kooti Whenua Maori kaore c utua-a-tau ana engari mo nga ra anake c mahi ai ratou i roto i te Kooti. Tuatoru, kei te tv tonu nga tari ate Kooti Whenua Maori me era atu mea, kei te haere tonu nga mahi. Tetahi, me whakamarama atu ahau, ko ena Tiati, me ena Ateha, me ena apiha inaha o te Kooti Whenua Maori, c utua ana ki nga moni a te koroni. Kaore c utua ana ki nga moni c hua ana i runga i nga whenua o nga Maori. Koia ahau i ki ake ai, ka nui rawa atu te taumaha o tenei Pire ki runga ki a matou me o matou whenua i nga taumaha ote Kooti Whenua Maori c mana nei i naianei. Eki ana te rarangi 5o te pitihana. "Ko o koutou kai-pitihana i runga ite pitihana kite Kuini, me te Paremete o Niu Tireni, c whai kuputia nei i nga kupu timatanga o taua Pire, c hiahia ana kia whakatoea kia rahutia, nga morehu whenua c toe ana kia ratou hei oranga hei whenua tuturu mo ratou i runga i nga ritenga pumaurawa kei whenua koretia ratou ; engari, i runga i nga take kua oti nei te whakamarama ake, tae noa ki tona tini noa iho o etahi atu take ano taihoa ake nei c ata whakamarama, c tino mohio tuturu ana ratou c kore rawa c rite tena hiahia i runga i nga huarahi c whakatakotongia ana c taua Pire c takoto nei ite aroaro ote Paremete." Kei au tetahi kape ote pitihana i tukua atu ki a te Kuini (Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti). Eki ana matou ko nga tikanga c whakatakotoria ana i roto i tenei Pire ate Pirimia, kaore rawa i rite kite kupu whakautu mai ate Kuini kite inoi aWi Pere ratou ko ona hoa nana nei taua pitihana. He hangahanga noa iho nei tona haerenga i runga ite kupu whakahau c mau nei i roto i te whakautu a te Kuini ki taua pitihana, otira ki tona tikanga nui, kaore i rite ki taua kupu whakahau. Ta matou hiahia me whakamana taua kupu tohutohu ate Kuini c mau nei i roto i tana whakautu kite pitihana i tukuna atu nei ki a ia. Ka mutu tena. Ka korero ahau i naianei mo etahi tekiona o te Pire kaore nei i whai kuputia i roto ita matou pitihana. Eki ana a rarangi 3 (h) ote pitihana: " Tera te nuinga atu o nga whakahe a o koutou kai-pitihana ki taua Pire me ona tekiona, c mea ana ratou taihoa c ata whakamarama atu kia takoto atu tena pitihana a ratou ki te aroaro o tetahi Komiti whiriwhiri o to koutou Whare honore." Te tekiona 11 me te tekiona 12 o te Pire c korero ana mo te whakahaerenga ote Ture kia pa. Me panui eau ena tekiona. 11. Te Tiamana: Xi taku mahara kaore kau he take c panuitia mai ai c koe, kei te Komiti hoki c takoto ana nga kape o te Pire, a mau c whakamarama mai au kupu whakahe mo aua tekiona. Te Heuheu : E pai ana, maku c whakamarama. I runga i tekiona 11, c kitea ana, c kore c whakahaerea taua Ture kia pa ki tetahi takiwa whenua Maori, kite kore c matua tonoa c nga Maori nona ' te whenua kia whakahaeretia ki reira. Ara, he penei te tikanga, kite kore ratou c tono, c kore epa taua Ture ki to ratou takiwa, engari e.wehi ana matou, ahakoa pera o ratou hiahia, kia pa ranei taua Ture ki o ratou whenua, kia kaua ranei c pa ki reira, akuanei ka pa ano, ma hoki ka taea noatia atu c te tangata kotahi, ratou ko ona hoa c whakarongo ana ki tana korero, te kawe i taua whenua ki raro i te mana o taua ture, ahakoa te hiahia o te nuinga o nga tangata whai whakaaro kia kaua taua ture c pa ki to ratou whenua Kaati, mehemea ka tae atu tetahi tono i runga i nga ritenga o tekiona 12 kite Kawana, he mea haina na etahi tangata rua tekau nuku atu ranei o nga tangata pakeke nona te whenua, a kite kore c tae atu he kupu whakahe, tae noa ki te paunga o nga ra c rua tekau ma waru c whakaatu ake nei i roto i wahanga (1) o

I.— Bα

12

tekiona ;12, i muri o te panuitanga o taua pitihana ki roto kite Kahiti, katahi ka whakamanangia taua Poari mo roto ite takiwa kei reira nei taua whenua i pitihanatia ra. Tuarua, akuanei, otira ko te tikanga tonu tena, he maha noa atu vga hapu, me nga ivvi motuhake kei roto i nga rohe o te takiwa Poari kotahi, ehara i te mea kotahi anake te hapu, no reira ka whai raruraru, ka taupatupatu nga paanga, me nga take o nga iwi c noho ana i roto i nga rohe o taua takiwa Poari. Tetahi, mehemea kite tae atu he kupu whakahe ma etahi tangata c rua tekau matahi mo te pitihana i hainatia ra c, nga tangata c rua tekau, me kite marama rawa nga whakaaro o te Kawana ratou ko tona Kaunihera, he tino take tika nga take i whakahe ai te hunga rua tekau ma tahi kite pitihana a te hunga rua tekau. Katahi ka tukuna atu c te Kawana kia pootitia taua take i roto i nga rohe o te takiwa c tonoa nei kia kawea ki raro i te mana o te Ture Poari —ara, kia pooti tautoko, kia pooti, whakahe, nga tangata o roto i taua takiwa nei ano mo taua mea. Xi taku, he tikanga whakataritari rawa tena i te kino, a tona mutunga iho he raruraru, he riri, he taumahatanga nui, kaore rawa c kore. Ka wehewehe nga tangata, aka tohetohea nga tangata whai take kite whenua c nga taha c rua c whakahe nei tetahi ki tetahi. Ka mea tetahi hunga, '.' Haere mai kite tautoko i ta matou hiahia kia whakamanangia mai te Poari mo roto i to tatou takiwa": A ka mea tetahi hunga, " Kaua rawa c whakaaetia tena Poari." Mehemea ka mutu te pooti, aka kitea kei te taha whakahe te nuinga 0 nga tangata kia kaua taua Poari c whakamanangia mo roto i to ratou takiwa, katahi ka kore c mana te pitihana a nga tangata rua tekau i tono nei kite Kawana kia whakaturia te Poari ki reira. Tenei ke te raruraru: Mehemea ka whakahengia te pitihana i hainatia c nga tangata rua tekau ma tahi kia whakaturia te Poari, a ka pootitia i runga i te whakahau o te Kawana, a kitea ana kei te taha turaki te nuinga o nga pooti, kaore c mutu i tena. Notemea, kia taka nga marama c ono, ka taea ano c taua hunga c hiahia nei kia whakamanaia taua Ture Poari te tono hou ano i ta ratou tono ; a c ahei ana kia haere tonu tena mahi iia ono marama iia ono marama, tau atu, tau atu, kaore he mutunga. Ka tono atu ahau kia whakaae te Komiti kia panuitia atu c au te wahanga (6) o tekiona 18 : " Me ahei te Poari kite whakapau i etahi moiii hei whakatakoto, hei hanga, hei whakapai i nga rori i nga tiriti ranei, hei mahi i nga ruri, hei whakatuwhera i nga whenua kia taea ai te whakanohonoho kite tangata, a hei mahi i etahi atu mea c whakamanangia ana c tenei Ture c nga huarahi-whakahaere ranei iwhakaputaina 1 raro i tenei Ture." Xi taku mahara c kotahi ana te whakaaro o nga iwi Maori katoa o te Motu nei kite ki penei: Ko nga ture c mana nei i naianei mo nga ruritanga o nga whenua Maori, tetahi mea nana i whakataumaha kino rawa nga whenua Maori. Ko te aronga o aua ture c mana ana i naianei mo nga ruritanga o nga whenua koia tenei: ka ruritia ana nga poraka whenua nunui, 40,000, 50,000, 60,000, tae atu kite 90,000 eka, nui rawa atu te pouri me te tangi o nga iwi Maori ki nga main i rnahia. A ka peheatia te mahi i raro i tenei Pire ma mutu nga whenua kua oti nei te ruri i mua atu, te tapatapatahi kia ririki nga wahanga, hei riihi etahi, hei whakanohonoho etahi kite tangata. Xi taku mahara, ma kona ka marama, c kore rawa c laea c nga moni c hua ana i runga i aua poraka te whakaea nga utu o ena ruri. 12. Hon. Tivm Kara : Pehea ai koia te whakaeanga o nga utu ruri i naianei ? Te Heuheu : A, mo tena patai mo te whakaeanga o nga moni ruri i naianei, heoi taku c mohio ana kite whakahoki ko toku nei takiwa ake. Ka oti nga moni ruri te whakatau ki runga ki tetahi poraka, apiti ki nga utu o te whakawakanga, ka tahi ka tapahia atu tetahi taha o taua whenua hei whakaea i ena moni ruri, aka toe nga eka toenga ki nga tangata nona te whenua. Ko nga wheuua o toku takiwa he whenua tupuhi, a mehemea ka mana ki reira tenei Ture Poari, ka wehewehea te whenua kia ririki nga piihi, i te mea c tino nui ana te utu o nga moni ruri tuatahi, katahi ka tino nuku rawa atu i raro i tenei Pire. Kaore c taea c ena whenua te waha o ena taumahatanga, ite tupuhi rawa. Kaati, i te mea kua whakamaramatia c au a matou whakahe mo nga tekiona me nga rarangi o tenei Pire kua mutu ake nei te korero tae noa ki nga mate tena c pa mai ki a matou, ki ta matou whakaaro, i runga i ena take, ki taku mohio kaore pea he take c korero ai ahau mo nga tekiona c toe ana, i te mea he rite katoa te kino. Engari, etc Tiamana, hei tautoko i a matou whakahe mo te Pire c hiahia ana ahau kia whakaaetia mai kia korero au i etahi kupu torutoru nei maku i waho atu o nga korero c pa ana kite Pire. Kua tahuri ahau kite whakamarama i nga take i kitea ai c matou c kore rawa c pai tenei Pire. A, etc Tiamana, ko taku take tuatahi i pera ai ahau koia tenei: Tera tetahi Pire i haria haeretia ki nga wahi o te motu nei, i whakakitekitea haeretia ki nga Maori ki o ratou hui me o ratou kaiuga. Ko taua Fire he Pire rereke noa atu i tenei. Itu tetahi o aua hui ki Waikato, a tae atu ana te Pirimiu. ki reira. Itu ano tetahi hui ki Te Waipatu, ka tae atu a Timi Kara ki reira me te Pirimia ano hoki, a whakaaturia atu ana c raua taua Pire tuatahi nei ki nga Maori. No muri nei, ko te hui ote Kotahitanga itu ki Papawai. Te ingoa o te Pire i huaina ki reira ko te Pire Tiaki Whakahaere hoki i nga whenua Maori, he Pire rereke noa atu i tenei. Ko taua Pire i mauria haeretia nei etc Pirimia ki nga hui Maori, c rua tekau ma waru ona rarangi. Ko te Pire i mauria haeretia etc Pirimia raua ko Timi Kara ki aua hui me te whakamarama haere ki nga iwi Maori c tino rereke rawa atu ana i tenei Pire. I korerotia ki nga Maori i reira ko te hiahia o te Kawanatanga he whakaora i nga iwi Maori, he whakau i nga iwi Maori ki runga ki o ratou whenua, a ko te ritenga tena o taua Pire ka whakatakotoria atu c ratou kite Pareinete, engari no te taenga mai o te tino Pire nei kitea ana c tatou c wha tekau ma iwa rawa ona tekiona, kaore i tuturu ki nga tekiona rua tekau ma waru anake o te Pire tuatahi, a apitiria iho hoki ki ena rarangi c wha tekau ma iwa etahi Ture tawhito c ono c mana ana i naianei Kua whakamaramatia eau nga ingoa o aua ture i kohia ki roto ki tenei Pire iaau c panui aua ite tekiona 47. A, apiti atu ki ena ture, katahi ka tino rereke noa atu tenei Pire ite Pire i kawea haeretia ki nga hui Maori. Kaati, ki taku, c whakaatu ana tena ahua, tuatahi, ka,ore rawa tenei Pire i whakaaturia ki nga Maori; tuarua, ko nga kupu whakamarama mo te Pire tuatahi i whakakitea ki aua hui c kore rawa c tau mo tenei Pire c takoto nei i te aroaro o tenei Komiti; tuatoru, no te kawenga mai o te Pire tuatahi kite hui i Papawai inahia ana c nga Maori tetahi rararangi menemana me etahi tekiona hou hoki, i runga ano i te kupu tohutohu, tono hoki, a te Pirimia. I ki atu ia ki nga tangata i taua hui c hiahia ana ia kia mahia c ratou nga menemana whakatikatika c wfiakaarohia ana c ratou mo taua Pire. I penei tana kupu "Ko tenei Pire c tamariki tonu ana, kaati, ma koutou c tiaki c mahi ona ringaringa me ona waewae kei hape, kei kino te tupu, kia tupu ake ai ia hei tangata ataahua." Kaati, etc Tiamana, i pau katoa te kaha o nga iwi me nga rangatira i hui ki

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reira, kite whakahaere tika i taua tamaiti. I tino pai ta ratou mahi ite tamaiti ra, engari i naianei, katahi ka kitea, i moumou mahi kau ratou, he wairua noa iho taua Pire, i te mea ko, te tinana tuturu' otaua Pire kaore i whakakitea atu ki a ratou Tuawha, c aro ana eria ahua katoa hei whakaatu koi.uei te taima tika hei haerenga mo te Pirimia me ona hoa c tautoko ana i tenei Pire kite tuku ano i taua Pire ki nga iwi Maori o te Motu nei, ka tono atu ai kia mahia ano c ratou ona ringaringa me o.na waewae, notemea katahi tonu tona tinana katoa ka whakakitea ki nga iwi. I mua, ko te upoko anake i whakaaturia ki a ratou. ......'..•' 13. Hon. Timi Kara : Kei a koe ranei te kape o aua menemana c korero nei koe j paahitia ?, \ Te Heuheu : Ac. [Ka whakatakotoria te kape. Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti.J Na reira ka tono atu ano ahau kia tirohia ano c te Komiti te rarangi whakamutunga o te pitihana nei, c penei ana nga kupu: " Ko o koutou kai-pitihana i runga i te pitihana kite Kuini, me te. Paremete o Niu.. Tireni, c whai kuputia nei i nga kupu timatanga o taua Pire, c hiahia ana kia whakatoea, kia rahutia, nga morehu whenua c toe ana kia ratou hei oranga hei whenua tuturu mo ratou i runga i nga ritenga; pumau rawa kei whenua koretia ratou ; engari, i runga i nga take kua Oti nei te whakamarama ake,! tae noa ki tona tini noa iho o etahi atu take ano taihoa ake nei c ata whakamarama, c tino mohio tuturu aua ratou c kore rawa c rite tena hiahia i runga, i nga huarahi c whakatakotongia ana c taua Pire c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Paramete." Kaati, c te Tiamana, me apiti atu eau ki tena rarangi whakamutunga o ta matou pitihana enei kupu, ara: " I runga i te whakaaro kite pitihana whakahe i te Pire i hainatia c te tekau mano tangata, kua oti nei te kokiri atu ki ,te Whare, tae noa kite pitihana tautoko i hainatia etc toru mano tangata." Me korero atu ahau, ko taua pitihana c kiia nei he pitihana tautoko, ehara i te pitihana tautoko i tenei Pire, engari he pitihana tautoko ke i nga menemana whakatikatika i mahia etc hui ki Papawai. Na reira c tika ana kia kiia c whakahe katoa ana ratou i te Pire, te tekau mano tae atu kite toru mano tangata, c whakahe katoa ana 1 tenei Pire. Na reira kaore rawa he take c nukuhia ai ki tetahi atu wa te whiriwhiringa o tenei Pire. Ite mea kei te pena te ahua, ahakoa kite waiho tenei Pire mo tera atu tuunga o te Paremete c kore c mutu i tera te raruraru, notemea ka mau tonu a ratou kupu whakahe c whakahe nei ratou i naiautii Kua maha nga tau i naianei o te whakatuunga o te Paremete o Niu Tireni. Mai ano i tona whakatuunga tuatahi tae mai ki naianei he maha nga ture kua oti te hanga c tena Kawanatanga c tena Kawanatanga mo nga iwi Maori me o ratou whenua. Engari ahakoa te maha o ena ture i mahia. c ena Kawanatanga maha mo nga Maori me nga whenua o te Maori, kei te mau tonu te mate, a ahakoa tahuri te tangata kite whakawiri i te kupu kite whakariroke ranei i te tikanga hei huna i taua mahi, c kore rawa c taea te huna, notemea he pono tonu, ara, kua tangohia atu' i nga Maori te nuinga o o ratou whenua, a i naianei c rima miriona tonu nga eka c toe ana ki a ratou. Ko nga miriona eka whenua kua tangohia atu i nga iwi Maori i nga tau maha noa atu, mai ano i te wa i tv ai nga Paremete tuatahi o Niu Tireni, i tanuohia atu i nga Maori i runga i ana ture i mahia c aua Kawanatanga, tuku iho, tuku iho, hei huarahi c kaha ai ratou kite pera. I taea tena ahua i runga i nga ture i mahia c nga Kawanatanga, c nga Paremete, c nga kamupene, me era atu hunga hoko whenua, engari na tenei Pire i whakatata rawa mai tena mate, ma hoki c kore c meatia kia whakaritea etahi tikanga, hoko, riihi, aha atu ranei, engari c meatia ana c te Pire nei me muru noa atu o matou whenua, c kore rawa c tohutohu, Etc Tiamana, c penei ana toku whakaaro : kaore he tikanga, ahakoa ko wai te Kawanatanga c tv ana, tena ranei c tv a tetahi takiwa, kaore he tikanga ahakoa pehea ta ratou whakaarohanga ture hei painga mo nga iwi Maori, hei whakaora i nga mate o nga iwi Maori, c kore rawa au c whakapon.o, c ki, ac, ka mahia he ture pai. Tuatahi, c wehi ana ratou ki nga pooti o nga iwi kei muri i o ratou tuarua. Koi na te mea c whakaaro nuitiaanae ratou.. Tuarua, ko tenei iwi ko te Pakeha kaore c ngata tona hiahia kite whenua, a hei whakau i tena korero aku maku c whakamarama atu ki tetahi kupu whakarite : Kua rongo matou nga iwi Maori kua oti rawa i tenei Kawanatanga c tv nei tetahi ture te paahi hei mu.ru i nga whenua o nga Pakeha, i nga tangata o to ratou nei ake iwi, ahakoa he whenua i a'a utua kite moni i riro ai i aua Pakeha. Ka murua era whenua i a ratou. E tika ana ka utua ano c te Kawanatanga nga moni c rite ana mo te wariu o aua whenua, haunga tena, ite mea kua takoto taua tikanga. Tuawha, ki taku titiro c kore rawa te iwi Pakeha c whakaae kia whakaritea te ahua o te iwi Maori ki to ratou, kia noho tahi ai raua i raro i te mana kotahi me te ture kotahi, a kia whakahaerea kia kotahi he tikanga kia kotahi he whakaaro mo nga iwi c rua. Ehara i te mea he whakahe tenei naku mo te Pirimia, ka nui ano hoki tona kaha kite rapu oranga mo te iwi Maori i roto i enei r tau maha, i a ia c haere nei kia kite i nga iwi Maori i runga i taua mahi kitni ora mo ratou, engari c penei ana taku whakaaro : tena ano pea, kei tua i tona tuara c takoto ana etahi tikanga kei te pupuri a kei te whakaugehe i tona kaha i kore ai c taea c ia te whakatutuki ana mahi i mohio ai hei painga mo te iwi Maori. Mehemea pea ko ia anake ia, kaore etahi atu hei whakaarohanga mana, tena c oti i a ia etahi tikanga c ora ai te iwi Maori. Etc Tiamana, ka vi atu au ki tenei Komiti, he aha koia te take i kore ai c arohatia te tono ate iwi Maori. E tere rawa ana te ngaro haere ote iwi Maori ite ao nei E wha tekau mano tonu pea ratou c toe nei, kaore ranei i ata tae ki tena. He aha te take i kore ai c taea te hanga he ture c ora ai ratou c mau ai i a ratou nga whenua korekore c toe nei ki a ratou, c ahei ai ratou ki te tiaki i a ratou kei taka atu ratou ki roto kite kino haere ai i nga wa c takoto ake nei ? Otira, ma ke tona tikanga, ko tenei iwi ko te Maori i te whakatuunga tuatahi o te mana o Ingarangi ki tenei Motu, hei hangarekatanga noa iho ma te Kawanatanga o Ingarangi me ona Minita i tenei Motu. I penei te tikanga ki taku rongo : no te rongonga o te Kuini kite papai o te iwi Maori, kite nunui, kite roroa, o ona tangata, me te pai o te whakatupu, ka tukua mai ana tangata ki konei, a hainatia ana te Tiriti o Waitangi, he whakaaro kia awhinatia te iwi Maori kei patupatuanoatanga, pera me era atu iwi Maori o era atu wahi ote ao kua puhipuhia noatia iho kua whakangaromia atu. Engari kaore au c 'kaha kite ki koia tena te take i homai ai c ia te Tiriti o Waitangi, na nga Pakeha tuatahi ranei i hoki atu i. konei ki Ingarangi i korero i te pai o te iwi Maori, te papai o o ratou rangitira me te ataahua o nga wahine, koi ra ranei te take i whakaputaina ai he arohatanga kite iwi Maori, he aha ranei, kaore au ,c mohio. Tetahi rongo oku na nga mihinare tuatahi i whakaatu ki nga mana o Ingarangi te pai o te iwi Maori, na ratou i ki atu c tika ana kia tiakina paitia te iwi Maori notemea he iwi iti te Maori, a te tukiinga iho ko te Tiriti o Waitangi. Xi taku mohio me i kaua aua kupu pai a aua mihinare ki nga tangata o Ingarangi, i hangaia ai te Tiriti o Waitangi, c tika ana kua kore noa atu te Maori i naianei, me i kaua - ~...■-...'•:. •■■..'• .....

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taua tikanga ki taku whakaaro kua mahia peratia matou me era atu iwi Maori o te ao c rongo ana au i mahia kinotia c etahi iwi o Oropi, herehere rawa ka whakamahia hei kararehe wahawaha kawenga me era atu tukinotanga nui whakaharahara Eki atu ana ahau ki a koe etc Tiamana, me nga mema o tenei Komiti, kite paahitia tenei Pire c te Paremete kia tv hei ture, c tino mohio ana ahau, c pono ana taku kupu, c kore c maha rawa nga tau c haere ake nei kua ngaro rawa atu nga iwi Maori o Niu Tireni, ko te mea mana tonu c whakangaro nga iwi Maori ko te paahitanga o te Pire nei hei ture, mehemea ra ka paahi. Etc Tiamana, kaore tenei iwi te Maori c mohio ana kite mahi huarahi moni hei oranga mo ratou pena me koutou me te Pakeha. Ka pau tetahi rima tekau tau c ako ana ratou, a he taki tahi rawa nga mea c mohio, a ko nga mea c mohio ehara i te mea he mohio pononga to ratou; ko te nuinga ote iwi c kore rawa c mohio. Hei kupu whakamutunga maku, ka whakamoemiti atu ahau, a ka mini atu hoki ki a koe, c te Tiamana, ki nga mema hoki o te Komiti, mo koutou i ata whakarongo pai ki enei korero roa. Tena pea kei te hoha ano etahi o koutou kite roa rawa o enei korero. Mehemea c pera ana, c tika ana, notemea etu pouri ana au i mua i o koutou aroaro iaau c tv nei. No te rahoroi tata nei ka nehua toku whaea a Tahuri, nana ahau. He mea tika me i tae au ki tona nehunga; toku hiahia nui he haere, engari ite mea kua whakawahaia mai ki runga i toku tuara te whakaaro a nga rangatira me nga iwi o etahi takiwa maha o te Motu nei, ko au hei mangai mo ratou ki konei, no reira kaore i taea eau te whakarere; a noho ana ahau. Engari ko taku hiahia nui ko te haere kia kite i a ia i mua o tona matenga. Te Tiamana : Ko ahau te Tiamana o tenei Komiti, engari, ahakoa taua ahua oku, ka korero ake ahau mo te taha ki au ake. Taku kupu ki a Te Heuheu, ka nui rawa atu taku whakapai atu ki o korero kua mutu ake nei. He nui te maramatanga kua tae mai ki au i o korero, aki taku mahara kaore rawa te Komiti nei i hoha i te roa o to whai korero. 14. Kapene Rahera : He mangai koe mo te hea iwi ? Te Heuheu : Ko au te mangai i tukuna mai ki konei mo Ngatiraukawa, mo Ngatimaniapoto, mo Whanganui, mo Te Arawa, a mo toku ake iwi mo Ngatituwharetoa. Tenei kei au a ratou pukapuka c tono ana kia noho au i konei hei mangai mo ratou hei tiaki hoki i te taha ki a ratou. 15. Kapene Bahera: Pehea te tokomaha o nga iwi etu na koe hei mangai mo ratou ? Te Heuheu : Kaore c taea c ahau te ki tuturu c mea to ratou tokomaha, engari ki taku whakaaro he maha atu pea i te hawhe o nga tangata tekau mano nana nei i hamate pitihana whakahe mo te Pire. 16. Kapene Bahera : Pehea te pakeke o nga tangata nana i hamate pitihana whakahe mo te Pire —he tamariki ranei etahi ? Te Heuheu : Kaore au c kaha kite whakahoki atui tena patai. Na ratou ano hoki o ratou ingoa i tuhituhi ki o ratou kainga. Kaore au c kaha kite ki he kaumatua ranei he taitamariki ranei ratou. 17. Kapene Bahera : Kaore koia koe c mohio noa ake kite whakaatuatu mai i o ratou tau? Te Heuheu : Ka mohio au kite pitihana a toku ake iwi. Kei te mohio au he tamariki etahi o ratou —ara, he tamariki kua whai whakaaro kua mohio kite tuhituhi. E whai take ana ratou ki o ratou whenua c meatia nei kia kuhua ki raro i tenei Pire. 18. Kapene Bahera : Xi to whakaaro tokohia nga tangata kei raro i te hainatanga ingoa kotahi, tokorua ranei, tokotoru ranei, tokohia ranei ? Te Heuheu : Xi i nga tau o to ratou kaumatuatanga te ritenga o tena, a tetahi mehemea he tangata whai tamariki, ka maha nga tangata i raro i te hainatanga o tena; engari mehemea he tamariki tekau ma rua tekau ma toru ranei nga tau te pakeke, ka haina ena mo o ratou nei ake tinana auake. Tena c eke kite tokowha kite tokorima ranei nga tangata kei raro i te mea kotahi o etahi o nga kai-pitihana. 19. Kapme Bahera : Xi taku mahara iho ki to korero ko te nuinga o nga tangata i haina ite pitihana tautoko i te Pire he tangata kua pau o ratou whenua i a ratou ano : kei hea te takiwa c noho ana ena tangata ? Kei te marara haere ranei te noho ki nga wahi katoa ote Motu nei ? Te Heuheu: Kei te Tai Rawhiti. I. whakamarama ano ahau i nanahi he tangata ena kua uru o ratou whenua ki raro i era atu Ture. Kaore au iteki he kore rawa atu o ratou whenua hei eketanga ma tenei Pire. Kei te mohio au he whenua ano oWi Pere i waho atu o nga whenua i paahitia ai nga ture motuhake hei whakaora i a ia. 20. Kapene Bahera : Kei te mohio ranei koe kite take i tahuri ai nga tangata paanga iti kite whenua kite tautoko i tenei Pire i naianei ? Te Heuheu : A, kaati, me penei taku whakautu mo tena patai: Mehemea kaore kau he whenua o ena tangata heoi ano te take i tahuri ai ratou kite tautoko i tenei Pire, koia tenei, c kore c pa ki a ratou tenei Pire, na reira kaore ratou c wehi kite tautoko i te Pire i te mea kei te pa ke atu ki etahi atu tangata. 21. Kapene Bahera: He mangai koe mo te tokoiti mohio, mo te tokonui kuare ranei? Te Heuheu : He mangai au mo nga iwi mohio, whai whakaaro hoki. 22. Kapene Bahera: Tena ranei c taupatupatu nga tika o nga tangata arahi ite iwi ki nga tika o nga tangata i raro i a ratou ? Te Heuheu: Ko te take c maharatia ana eau tena c raruraru ko te wehewehenga o nga tangata ma. tono etahi kia tukua te whenua ki raro i te Poari a ma tahuri etahi kite arai kia kaua c uru ki raro i te Poari. 23. Kapene Bahera : E penei ana te tikanga o to korero, ka riro i ta nga tangata paanga ririki ki te whenua a ka hinga ta nga tangata paanga nunui ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; ka pena. Koia tena te tikanga o te rarangi o ta matou pitihana eki nei, ko nga tangata paanga iti c tautoko ana i tenei Pire hei mate mo nga tangata paanga nunui. Ko nga tangata paanga ririki hoki o roto i etahi takiwa nga tangata c tino kaha ana te hiahia kia paahitia tenei Pire. 24. Kapene Bahera: I korero mai koe ki a matou c wehi ana koe kite ahua o nga tangata c kiia nei ka whakaturia hei Poari; he wehi koia nou kei whakahaerea etc Komihana tona mana ki runga ki nga Maori, he aha ranei te take i wehi ai koe kite Poari ? Te Heuheu: Kei hoatu c ia tona mana Tiamana o te Poari hei tautoko i te taha kite Karauna a kei kore c whakahaerea c ia hei hapai i nga hiahia me nga take c pa ana ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua.

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25. Kapene Bahera ; Kaati, c penei ana to whakaaro, tena pea c whakahaerea c te Komihana tona tika hei painga mo te Karauna kaore mo nga Maori? Te Heuheu: Ac ; c pera ana taku titiro. 26. Kapene Bahera : Ka pai ranei ki tau whakaaro mehemea me ata pooti nga mema Pakeha o te Poari, kaua c riro ma te Karauna c whakatu ? Te Heuheu : Kaore pea c aha i tena. Ahakoa penatia ka mau tonu taku wehi tera c riro nga whakatau a te Poari hei painga mo te Karauna kaore mo nga Maori, a tetahi o nga take i ki pera ai au ko te tokomahatanga ake o nga mema Pakeha o te Poari i nga mema Maori. 27. Kapene Bahera : Xi to mahara ka pooti katoa nga mema Pakeha o te Poari kite taha kotahi anake me nga mema Maori kite taha kotahi anake ? Te Heuheu : Ka pera ki taku whakaaro. 28. Kapene Bahera: Kaati, kei te whakahe katoa nga iwi, etu nei koe hei mangai mo ratou, ki tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 29. Kapene Rahera : Kaore koia ratou i te hiahia kia whakatikatikaina te Pire : ko to ratou hiahia koia me turaki rawa atu tenei Pire a me hanga he Pire hou rereke i tenei te ahua ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 30. Kapene Bahera: Kaati, ka whakaae ranei nga Maori kia mahia he tikanga, ara, he Pire, c taea ai nga taitara te wehewehe ki ia whanau ki ia tangata ranei ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; ka whakaae matou ki tetahi tikanga pena mehemea ka tukuna mai ma matou c whakarite i runga i ta matou i whakaaro ai c tika ana, a kia tau i a matou ka tuku atu ai kite Paremete kia whakamanaia. 31 Kapene Bahera : Tena, me pehea te taha ki nga toenga whenua kaore c tika kia wehewehea ki ia whanau ki ia hapu ki ia tangata ranei, me pehea aua toenga whenua ki tau, me riro ranei ma te Poari c whakahaere, ma wai ranei ? 21s Heuheu: E penei ana te hiahia o nga Maori mo nga toenga whenua kaore nei c taea c ratou ake te mahi, me tuku kia riihitia c ratou i runga ano i nga kupu o ta ratou pitihana kite Kuini. 32. Kapene Rahera : Ka whakaae ratou kia whakaputaina he taitara mo nga whenua katoa, kaua he whenua c kore te whiwhi taitara ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; mehemea ka whakaputaina ki nga tangata Maori nona te whenua aua taitara. 33. Kapene Bahera: A c whakaae ana koe kia utaina te utu ote kimihanga me te whakataunga o te taitara ki runga kite whenua ? Te Heuheu : Kaore; ma te koroni tena c utu. Tera ano hoki tetahi moni c £7,000 c ata wehea ana etc Kuini iia tau, iia tau, ma tona iwi Maori. Xi taku whakaaro me hanga he tikanga kia ahua rite kite Kooti Whenua Maori c tv nei. 34 Kapene Bahera : Engari kaore ranei nga moni ruri c utaina ana ki runga ki nga whenua Maori i naianei ? Te Heuheu : Ac. E tika ana ena kia penatia, notemea kia oti ra ano te ruri katahi ka ka tino tau te taitara o te Maori kite whenua, ma tera hoki ka ata mohiotia nga rohe. 35. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ranei c tika kia whakataua te utu o taua ruri ki runga kite whenua, kia mohoio ai te tangata c whakawhiwhia ana kite taitara a he taitara watea tona? Te Heuheu: Ac. 36. Kapene Bahera:. I korero koe ki a matou c toru tekau ma whitu mano nga Maori c tautoko katoa ana ite Tiriti o Waitangi; he aha te tikanga o ena kupu au ? Te Heuheu : He penei te tikanga, c hiahia ana ratou kia hoatu ki a ratou te mana i whakapumautia ki a ratou i raro i taua tiriti —ara, te mana hei whakahaere i a ratou mea katoa, kite hanga ture mo ratou, me te whakatakoto tikanga hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua. 37. Kapene Bahera : Xi tau whakaaro ka tika ranei kia hanga kia motuhake he ture mo te iwi Maori kia motuhake hoki he ture mo te iwi Pakeha ? Te Heuheu : Kaore c pena ana taku kupu. Ehara iau taua whakaaro. Kei roto ite Tiriti o Waitangi me te 57 o nga tekiona o " Te Ture Whakamana Paremete mo Niu Tireni, 1852." 38. Kapene Bahera : E mea ana koe kia motuhake he ture mo nga Maori i raro i te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Heuheu: Kaore c pena rawa taku korero, engari, ki taku whakaaro, c tika ana kia whakamanangia c te Paremete o tenei koroni nga tono a nga iwi Maori c inoi nei i raro i te Tiriti o Waitangi. 39. Kapene Rahera: Xi to mohio kite tukua atu ki nga Maori he mana hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua, ka taea ranei c ratou te whakahaere penei me nga Pakeha? Te Heuheu: Xi taku mohio ka taea c ratou. Ma tenei Paremete hoki c tiaki kia taea ai c ratou. Xi te tukua atu c te Paremete he mana ki a ratou kia rite ki ta ratou c hiahia nei, ka tiaki tonu te Paremete kia oti pai ai nga whakahaere a nga Maori. 40. Kapene Rahera : Xi to whakaaro ka tika ranei kia whakawhiwhia ratou kite mana hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua penei me nga Pakeha ? Te Heuheu : Ka tika ki taku whakaaro. 41. Kapene Rahera : Kaati ra, i te mea kei te pena tau, kei te mohio ranei koe c kore rawa c taea te pupuri o te mana hoko, haunga nga whenua c whakataua ana he here ki runga? Te Heuheu : Ka taea ano pea tena ahua te whakatika ki taku whakaaro. Me hoatu ki a ratou he mana hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua me a ratou mea katoa, engari ma te Paremete c whakatakoto tetahi tikanga pakeke, pumau rawa, hei whakamutu rawa i te hoko ahakoa kite Kawanatanga ki tetahi atu tangata ranei. 42. Kapene Rahera : Kaati ra, kua kitea i runga i au kupu ano, c hiahia ana koe me ture ke mo te Maori me ture ke mo te Pakeha? Te Heuheu : Ac. I pohehe au ki to korero i korero ra, i mahara au he Paremete motuhake tau c mea ana. 43. Kapene Bahera : Na tena ahua pea i tika ai te mahi a te Kawanatanga i tana hoatutanga kite Paremete i te Pire arai i te hoko ?

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Te Heuheu : E tika ana nga kupu arai ite hoko c mau nei i roto ite Pire ate Pirimia. Kaore aku amuamu mo tena, ma ke ta matou c whakahe ana ko te toronga haeretanga o nga ringaringa me nga waewae o te Pire ki nga wahi katoa. He kupu ano ranei kei roto ite Pire c arai ana ite hoko? 44. Kapene-, Bahera : Taku hiahia kia rongo au i nga whakaaro o nga iwi nui tonu o te Maori, kaua' c tautolietohetia ko te Pire. Xi tau whakaaro kaore ranei c nuku haere te ora me te mataurahga -o' te' iwi Maori kite hoatu ki a ia ano tona whenua pupuri ai kaua c hoatu ma tetahi Poari c pupuri c whakahaere?,. Te Heuheu': Ac. Me hoatu ma ratou c hanga nga huarahi wehewehe i nga whenua i runga i tena^tikanga. 45. Te Baiti Honore Te Hetana : Kia marama rawa i a tatou tena kupu. Kaore ranei i te penei te tikanga, c' hoatu ai he mana, kaua rawa c hokona c ratou nga whenua —kaore koia i te pera ? Te Heuheu : Ac. Koia tena ta matou tono ki a koe. Kua maha noa atu a matou touonga kite Pirimia kia tino katia te hoko o nga whenua Maori, ahakoa ko nga whenua kua timataria te hoko atu kite Kawanatanga, engari ko te utu mai a te Pirimia i a matou tono i penei, kaore c tika, me ata whakaoti ano nga hoko o nga poraka kua timataria te hoko. 46. Te Raite Honore Te Hetana : Tena, kite kore ratou c riihi, c whakamahi ranei i o ratou Whenua—mehemea ka hoatu he mana ki a ratou hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua, me te mau tonu o te here c kore rawa ai ratou c kaha kite hoko i aua whenua, a kaore c taea c ratou te riihi te whakamahi ranei; —me pehea? Te Heuheu : Koia tena te mea c hiahiatia c matou kia mahia c matou. E mea ana matou ko nga toenga o o matou whenua kaore nei c taea c matou te mahi me whakapuare kite riihi, me whakanohonoho kite tangata. Kei roto ena kupu ite pukapuka inoi i tukua atu nei kite Kuini. 'Ait .Kapene Bahera : Xi tau he pai ranei he kino ranei te wehewehe i nga whenua ki ia tangata kia rite tahi ai te takoto o nga taitara o nga whenua Maori ki nga taitara o nga whenua Pakeha ? Te Heuheu . Xi taku whakaaro he pai rawa me riro ma ratou c whakatu he Poari, me Maori anake oha mema, ma taua Poari c whiriwhiri c whakatau me wehewehe ranei te whenua ki ia tangata, me waiho ranei kia takoto topu ana, kei ta ratou whiriwhiri te ritenga ; engari ko te Paremete he matua mo taua Poari, a mana c whakaae c whakamana taua mahi 48 Kapene Bahera : Kei te whakahe koia koe kite tikanga c mea nei me wehewehe atu ki ia tangata tona whenua kia nohoia c ratou ko tona whanau? Te Heuheu :. E whakaae ana au ki tena, engari ma te Runanga Poari tena c mahi. Ma te Runanga Poari c hanga ena tikanga me ena wehewehenga. 49. Kapene Rahera : E penei ana te tikanga o taku patai: c kimi ana au kia mohio au kite whakaaro tuturu o te iwi Maori, mehemea ranei c hiahia ana ratou ma ratou ano c pupuri o ratou whenua, ara, nga mea whai whenua o ratou, i te mea c mohiotia ana hoki a tona wa c haere ake nei, mana c tere mana c roa,, kaore c kore te eke atu ki runga ki a ratou o nga ture katoa c pa nei ki nga Pakeha. Kei te nohbfhohio ranei te iwi Maori ki a ratou mo te tupono ki taua wa? Te Heuheu : Kaore kau he whakahe mo tena Xi te hiahia tetahi Maori kia ata wehea ki aia tona whenua kaore tena c whakahengia. 50. Kapene Rahera : Engari, katahi ra ia ka whai manaki te hoko kite mokete? Te Heuheu: Ka mau tonu te titiro ate Maori kite Maori he Maori nei ano ia. Kaore ahau ite kite take c kore ai c tika kia hoatu kite Maori tena mana mehemea kua' motuhake ki a ia tona whenua. 51. Kapene Rahera : Xi to whakaaro, kite pera, ka moumouria ranei c te Maori tona whenua, a te tukunga, iho noho kau ana, kaore he whenua? Te Heuheu : Mehemea kite hiahia te tangata kite kohuru i a ia ano, kite poro i tona kaki, pena me tau c korero na, kaore ia c kaha kite whakahe atu ki tetahi atu tangata, nana ano hoki tena mate i kimi atu hei mate mona.

Paeaiee, 30 o Hepetema, 1898. Te Heuheu : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 52. Kapene Bahera: I patai ahau ki a koe i nanahi mo au whakahe kite Poari c meatia nei kia whakaturia i raro i tetiei Pire. Xi taku whakarongo atu ki o korero mehemea nei c pai ana koe ki taua Poari, engari kaore koe c pai me Pakeha etahi o nga mema o taua Poari. Kaati, mehemea kite whakaturia he Poari Maori hei whakahaere i nga whenua o nga Maori, ki to whakaaro kia pehea te nui o te takiwa whenua hei whakahaerenga ma taua Poari ? Te Heuheu: Xi taku whakaaro ma taua Poari c whakahaere te katoa o te rima miriona eka c toe nei ki nga Maori, notemea, ki taku, ko tena mea ko te Poari he whakakotahitanga tena no te toru tekau ma whitu mano tangata i korerotia ra c au, a ko taua Poari he kai whakahaere mo ratou (ara, ma ia hapu c whakarite he metiia mona), a ma taua Poari c hanga nga tikanga me nga ture c ruritia ai c wehewehea ai nga whenua, c whakarite he tikanga mo nga tangata whenua kore, a c whakarite etahi tikanga c mau tonu ai nga whenua o nga tangata whai whenua. Me whai mana taua Poari kite tirotiro kite whiriwhiri i te hiahia o te tangata c mea ana kite hoko kite riihi kite tuku ranei i tona whenua, a ma taua Poari c whakaae c whakahe ranei taua hiahia. Ko tetahi mea hoki me riro ma taua Poari c whakatau, mehemea ranei he mea tika kia ruritia a kia wehewehea te whenua ki ia whanau me ia tangata no ratou te whenua. 53. Kapene Bahera : Kia hia nga Poari pera ki to whakaaro ? Te Heuheu : Kia kotahi. Kua rongo nuinga Pakeha ki tenei mea kite Kotahitanga, tona tikanga he huihui kia piri kia kotahi te iwi Maori, a ko te Kauhanganui a Mahuta, he tikanga pera ano tera, he hanga kia kotahi te iwi Maori. Xi taku whakaaro hei mangai a hei hunga whakahaere taua Runanga Poari mo te Kotahitanga raua ko te Kauhanganui. 54. Kapene Bahera : E penei ana to kupu, me whakakore rawa atu te Kooti Whenua Maori me whakatu he Runanga Maori hei whakakapi i te Kooti ?

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Te Heuheu: Ac. 55. Kapene Bahera : Mehemea ka he te whakatau a taua Eunanga, me pehea he huarahi c taea ai te whakatikatika, te whakakore ranei i tana whakatau ma he ? Te Heuheu : Ma ratou c hanga etahi ture, me etahi tikanga hei tohutohu a hei whakahaere i a ratou, a me matua hanga c ratou he ture kia taea ai te whakaora o nga mate c pa ana kite tangata ma he tetahi whakatau a ratou. 56. Kapene Bahera: E mohio ana ranei koe c hia nga moni c pau ite whakahaerenga ite Eunanga ? Te Heuheu : Kaore ; kaore c taea c au te whakahoki i tena patai. 57. Kapene Bahera: Ma wai c utu taua mahi? Te Heuheu : Ma te moni c £7,000 c whakaritea nei i ia tau i ia tau, heipaingamo te iwi Maori, tetahi tana c utu, a ma etahi atu moni c whakaritea ana c te Eunanga, c te Poari ranei, hei whakahaere i ana mahi. 58. Kapene Bahera : Ehara ia nei taua £7,000 i te moni i ata wehea hei painga mo nga Maori rawa-kore ? * Te Heuheu: Ka whakamahia na hoki aua moni hei painga mo nga Maori. 59. Kapene Bahera : Me pehea ki tau c tuwhera ai nga whenua i te rori kia taea ai te whakanohonoho kite tangata ? Te Heuheu : Ma te Eunanga c rapu a c whakatau nga tikanga c taea ai ena mahi. 60. Kapene Bahera : Me pehea he moni c taea ai aua mahi ? Te Heuheu : Me hoatu he mana mokete kite Eunanga. 61. Kapene Bahera : Kua ki koe ko to hiahia kaua nga whenua c hokona, a c kore c taea tenei mea te mokete kite kore c hoatu tetahi whenua hei punga mo te mokete ? Te Heuheu: Koia tena te ritenga i naianei. Bngari ki taku whakaaro kite whakaturia te Eunanga, Poari ranei, a kite .whakaaetia ia kia whakahaere i ona mana, tera ano c kitea he huarahi c taea ai enei mea katoa. 62. Kapene Bahera : Ko te hea tau c pai ai, me uru nga Pakeha hei mema mo te Poari me Maori anake ranei ? Te Heuheu : Ko ta te Kotahitanga c whakatau ai koi ra tonu taku c whakaae ai. Ma te Kotahitanga c hanga etahi ture me etahi tikanga kia kore ai nga whenua c pahuhu atu i nga Maori. 63. Kapene Bahera: Ehara taku it te hopu i a koe i runga i o whakahoki mai i nga patai; heoi taku c whai ana kia whakapuakina mai c koe tau ake whakaaro, ara, me pehea te mahi ki tau? Te Heuheu : B penei ana taku : kite kore c tukua kite Eunanga nga mana c tonoa nei c au, kaati, kaore kau pea he mea ke atu hei whakaaetanga maku. -64. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, ko te Poari Maori anake tau c hiahia ana? "mare Kaihau : Xi taku mahara i penei ke te kupu a te kai-whakahoki patai, ara, ki tana me Maori katoa nga mema o te Kotahitanga, a ma ratou c hanga he tikanga hei whakahaere i nga whenua, kia araia ai nga hoko he, me era atu mea. 65. Kapene Bahera : E penei ana te aronga o aku patai: I a tatou c mahi nei kei te kimi tatou i te huarahi c taea ai te hanga he ture mo nga whenua Maori, engari kaua c maharatia ka tuku noa te Paremete ite mana ki tetahi hunga. Kia matua mohio te Paremete he hunga mohio taua hunga kite whakahaere tikanga, katahi ano ka hoatu taua mana. Tena koa, ko te hea ta te kai-whaka-hoki patai c pai ai, ko te Poari, he Pakeha he Maori ona mema, ko tetahi tikanga ke ranei c wehewehea ai nga whenua ki ia tangata ki ia tangata ? Te Heuheu : E penei ana taku kupu: Kaore c taea eau te whakaae tetahi atu tikanga mehemea c takoto ke ana taua tikanga i taku i whakaatu ai i mua ake nei, notemea, kua oti i au te whakamarama, ko te mahi a ia Kawanatanga i roto i nga tau kua pahemo he hanga ture, c ai ki ta ratou, hei painga mo te iwi Maori, a c mohiotia ana kaore he ora i puta ki nga Maori i aua ture, ma hoki kua ngaro i nga Maori te nuinga o o ratou whenua. 66. Kapene Bahera : I penei tetahi o kupu, kaore c pai kia riro ma te Poari, c meatia nei kia whakaturia c te Pire nei, c whakatau nga kai-riiwhi tupapaku, notemea, kaore c kore te whaipaanga o nga mema Maori o te Poari ki taua riiwhitanga tupapaku : E pera ana ia nei koe ? Te Heuheu : Maku c ata whakamarama taua kupu aku. I penei taku korero : i runga i taku titiro i nga korero o te Pire, c penei ana, ka whakaturia he Poari hei whakahaere mo ia takiwa, a kia tokorua nga- mema o ia Poari, me kowhiri i roto i nga tangata Maori no ratou nga whenua i rofco i te takiwa c whakaturia rate Poari mo reira, na reira kaore c kore te whai paanga o aua mema Maori ki nga keehi katoa c whakahaerea ana mo nga whenua Maori o roto i to raua takiwa. Xi taku titiro hoki ki nga korero o te Pire kaore c whai-mana te Poari kite whakahaere i nga whenua o waho i tona rohe. 67. Kapene Bahera : Tena, whakaarohia nga Poari me nga tikanga c whakaturia ai, engari kaua c tino nunui rawa nga takiwa mo aua Poari; c kore ranei c pai kia tukuna ma aua Poari c whakatau nga paanga kite whenua o ia hapu o ia hapu, a kia mutu tera katahi nga hapu ka tahuri kite wehewehe i nga whenua ki ia tangata ki ia tangata o ratou ? Te Heuheu: Xi taku mahara kite tukua atu te mana c tonoa nei kite Eunanga, kaore c kore te kitea he huarahi c taua Eunanga c taea ai te whakahaere o ena mea katoa. 68. Kapene Bahera : E mea ana ahau kia whakapuakina mai c koe tau ake whakaaro, ara, he tikanga pai ranei taku c mea nei c puta ai te ora, he tikanga kino ranei c pa ai he mate ? Te Heuheu: Xi taku mahara he tikanga tena c puta ai te pai. 69. Kapene Bahera : Xi to mahara, he tikanga pai ranei mo nga iwi Maori, c ngakaunui ai ratou kite tino mahi i o ratou whenua, mehemea c whakanohonohoia ana ia tangata ia tangata me tana whanau ki runga kite whenua, kia tahuri ai ia tangata kite mahi oranga mo ratou ko ana tamariki, penei me te Pakeha c mahi nei ? 3—l. 3a.

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18

Te Heuheu : Ac, kei te whakatika au ki tena. Ma tena c ngakaunui ai nga Maori kite mahi i o ratou whenua; engari ma te Runanga ote Kotahitanga c whakariterite c hanga he ture pena. 70. Kapene Bahera : Ka taea ranei c te Poari kotahi te whakahaere nga whenua katoa puta noa ite Motu nei ? Me whakatu ranei he Poari mo ia takiwa kia riro ai ma nga tangata ano oia takiwa nga whenua o roto i taua takiwa c whakahaere, ara, ma nga tangata kua noho roa i reira kua waia ki nga tangata me nga whenua o reira ? Te Heuheu: E tika ana tena. Xi te kite Runanga ote Kotahitanga me whakatu kia maha nga Poari i raro i a ia, kaati, me pera. 71. Kapene Bahera: Kaore ranei c pai kia tv tetahi Pakeha, me tino tangata ingoa nui, hei hoa tautoko a hei hoa tohutohu i a ratou ? Ehara ite mea hei peehi taua tangata i nga whakaaro o nga Maori, engari hei tautoko hei tohutohu i a ratou ? Te Heuheu : Xi taku mahara he tika noa atu he pai noa atu kia whakaturia he mema Pakeha mo aua Poari, kite kite Kaunihera Maori, ara, te Kotahitanga, me pera. 72. Hon. Timi Kara : I ki koe i nanahi na koutou i tuku nga kupu mihi kite Kuini ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; engari i au c ki atu nei " Ac," mo te iwi katoa tena kupu notemea kaore a ahau ake i haina i te pukapuka i tuhia atu ai aua kupu mihi. 73. Hon. Timi Kara : I penei etahi rarangi o aua kupu mihi, ara, " Kei te hiahia o iwi Maori kite mahi oranga ano mo ratou i runga i o ratou morehu whenua, i runga i nga huarahi mahi paamu, a ko nga wahi kaore c taea c matou te mahi, kei te whakaae matou kite reti atu i runga i nga huarahi c whakanohonohoia nei te koroni kite tangata." E whakaae ana ranei koe ki enei kupu ? Te Heuheu: Ka tino whakaae au ki tena mehemea ka whakaaetia tena etc Runanga. 74. Hon. Timi Kara : Waiho ake te Runanga ote Kotahitanga—e mea ana ahau me utu mai c koe ki tau ake i mohio ai, ara, c whakaae ana ranei koe koia tera he tikanga ko nga kupu mihi i tukua atu nei kite Kuini ? Te Heuheu : Kaore c taea c au te whakarere i te Kotahitanga i roto i taku whakahoki ki to patai, notemea na te Kotahitanga tonu i tuhituhi aua kupu mihi ki a te Kuini. 75. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaati, kei te whakaae ranei koe ki taua tikanga—ara, me waiho nga morehu whenua o nga Maori hei oranga mo ratou i runga i nga huarahi mahi paamu, a ko nga wahi kaore c taea ana c ratou te mahi me riihi i runga i nga huarahi etupu haere ai a c whakanohonohoia ai te koroni kite tangata ? Te Heuheu: Ac ; engari c tohe ana au kaore te Pire Whakanohonoho Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori c whakatutuki ana i nga tikanga i whakatakotoria c aua kupu ki ate Kuini. Na reira hoki matou i whakahe ai kite Pire. 76. Hon. Timi Kara : Tena; he aha te mea mana c whakatutuki nga tikanga i whakatakotoria c aua kupu ki a te Kuini ? Te Heuheu : He mana, me hoatu c tenei Paremete kite Runanga o te Kotahitanga, kia whai mana ai te Runanga kite mahi ture, me era atu tikanga katoa hei whakahaere i nga mea c korerotia nei. 77. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaati, c tuturu ana to whakaaro, c taea ai te whakahaere pai i nga whenua Maori, me tuku atu c te Paremete he mana kite Kotahitanga, kia whai mana ai ia kite hanga ture, i runga i tana i kite ai he tika, hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori? Te Heuheu : Ac, koia tena. 78. Hon. Timi Kara: Tena, i mua i tana hoatutanga i tena mana, kaore ranei te Paremete c matua tono atu kia hoatu ki a ia nga whakamaramatanga o nga ture c meatia ana kia mahia c te Kotahitanga ? Te Heuheu : Kua oti katoa tenei mea te whakamarama ki a koe, kei a koe a matou whakamaramatanga c takoto ana. Te Taimana : E hiahia ana te Komiti kia rongo i aua whakamaramatanga. Henare Kaihau: Xi taku mahara ehara ite tamariki nga mema ote Paremete. Xi taku whakaaro kei te tino mohio ratou ki nga tikanga i whakatakotoria c te Tiriti o Waitangi, a ki nga tikanga hoki i whakatakotoria etc Ture Whakamana Paremete mo Niu Tireni. Xi taku mohio atu ki nga korero a te kai-whakahoki patai, c penei ana ia, c whai take ana nga Maori i raro i aua ture c rua kite tono kia whakaaetia ratou kia whakatu i tetahi Runanga mo ratou. Te Heuheu: Ko te Pire Mana Motuhake mo te Iwi Maori te Pire tuatahi i mahia c nga Maori c mohiotia ai o ratou hiahia. Muri iho i tera ko te Pire Whakamana Runanga Kaunihera. 79. Hon. Timi Kara: E mea ana au kia whakaaturia mai c koe kite Komiti c noho nei tetahi huarahi marama c tea ana te whakahaere, ara, tetahi tikanga i kitea c tou ake whakaaro, tetahi tikanga ranei kua ata hurihuria c koe, hei whakahaere mo nga morehu o nga whenua Maori. Eki ana hoki koe ko te hiahia o nga Maori me mutu te hoko whenua, engari, tuatahi, me waiho nga whenua hei oranga mo nga Maori, a, tuarua, hei whakanohonoho kite tangata kia tupu haere ai te koroni. Ko taku c hiahia ana kia whakaaturia c koe kite Komiti ko tau huarahi i kite ai c tino tutuki ai enei mea, ara, te whakamutu i te hoko whenua kia toe ai nga whenua hei oranga mo nga Maori hei whakanohonoho kite tangata ? Te Heuheu: Mehemea ko taku c mohio ake nei te tikanga o te patai, kaati, kua oti iau te utu i mua ra. Xi taku, ko te utu mo tena patai ko nga Pire c rua i whakahuatia ake nei c au—te Pire Mana Motuhake mo nga Maori me te Pire Whakamana Runanga Kaunihera. Na, ko te Pire Poari a te Pirimia raua ko Timi Kara, c takoto nei i to koutou aroaro, kaore rawa i uru ki taua Pire tetahi menemana whakatikatika kia kotahi i mahia nei, c te hui ki Papawai, hei whakauru ki taua Pire. 80. Hon. Timi Kara : Waiho ake nga Pire nei, ma ke, mehemea i mea atu te Paremete ki a koe, "E Te Heuheu, mahia he Pire i runga i tau i mohio ai ma tera c pai ake ai te whakahaere i nga whenua Maori, c rite ai nga hiahia ote iwi Maori." Ka peheatia c koe te mahi ? Te Heuheu : Te mea tuatahi c mahia c au he whakamana i te Runanga o te Kotahitanga hei whakatutuki i nga hiahia i tonoa nei c te pukapuka inoi i tukua nei c nga Maori kite Kuini.

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81. Hon. Timi Kara: Te mea tuatahi he whakatu i tetahi Kaunihera mo te koroni katoa, c penei ana taku mohio atu ki to whakahoki ? Te Heuheu : Koia tena, engari kua korerotia tena c nga Maori i mua noa atu. 82. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaore au ite mea kia korerotia mai ki au nga mahi kua oti atu. E ata arahi ana aku patai i a koe, kia pai ai te tatai haere o aku patai me au whakahoki mai, a tae atu kite mea c whaia nei c au. Kua ki koe ko te mahi tuatahi he whakatu i tetahi Kaunihera mo te koroni hei whakahaere hei whakatutuki i nga hiahia o te iwi Maori ? Te Heuheu : Xi te whakamanaia mai c te Kawanatanga he Kaunihera pera, c kore c roa kua oti te whakatu. 83. Hon. Timi Kara : Tena, me pehea te whakatu i taua Kaunihera ? Me pooti koia ona mema i te tuatahi ? Te Heuheu : Ac, me pooti ona mema. Engari kua oti noa atu nga huarahi me nga tikanga c pootitia ai nga mema. No te tau 1892 i mahia ai. 84. Hon. Timi Kara : Xi tau me wehewehe nga takiwa pooti mema mo te Kaunihera puta noa i te koroni ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; engari kua oti noa atu te whakariterite o tena i a matou. 85. Hon. Timi Kara : A, ma tv taua Kaunihera, me Maori katoa ona mema : c pera ana tau? Te Heuheu : Ac ; engari kite tukua he mana kite Kaunihera c te Paremete, tera ratou c hiahia kia whakaturia etahi mema Pakeha. 86. Hon. Timi Kara: A, c kore ranei koe c whakahe kite whakaturia c te Paremete me Pakeha me Maori nga mema o te Kaunihera, ara, c kore pea koe c whakahe ki tera tikanga ? Te Heuheu : E kore au c whakahe, kite rite ite Paremete te hiahia ote Kotahitanga; engari ko te Pire kua whakatakotoria nei c te Kawanatanga kite aroaro o te Komiti nei, c kiia nei ma taua Pire c ngata ai nga hiahia o te Kotahitanga, kaore rawa i te whakarite i aua hiahia. 87. Hon. Timi Kara : Haunga tena. Mehemea ka whakaturia taua Kaunihera, me riro koia ma ratou c mahi nga mahi a te Kooti Whenua Maori, ara, c whakawa nga whenua, c wehewehe nga whenua, c whakahaere nga tono riiwhi tupapaku, c whakatu nga kai-riiwhi, c mahi nga mahi katoa a te Kooti ? Te Hettheu : Ac. E penei ana taku : a kia marama hoki te whakarongo mai, kite tau i te Kotahitanga kaati tonu ma nga Tiati o te Kooti Whenua Maori c whakahaere aua mahi, ka pena hoki taku ; a kite tau i te Kotahitanga me whakamutu katoa nga Tiati Pakeha a me Maori anake nga mea c whakaturia hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori, ara, me penei te tikanga, me haere mai ko nga Maori o Ngapuhi ki Poneke hei whakahaere i nga whenua o te pito ki Poneke nei, a me tuku atu ko nga Maori o te pito ki Poneke nei hei whakahaere i nga whenua o tetahi atu takiwa. Xi te pera he tikanga ka whakaae au. 88. Hon. Timi Kara: Kaati, heoi tau Kaunihera c mohio ana me Pakeha me Maori anake ranei ? Te Heuheu : Xi taku titiro kaore kau he tikanga o tena patai. 89. Hon. Timi Kara : E ki ana koe, mehemea ka kite Kotahitanga ko te Kooti Whenua Maori te mea pai, ka pera hoki tau, a kite kite Kotahitanga ko te Kaunihera Maori te mea pai, ka pera ano hoki tau ; kaati, ka waiho c koe kite Kotahitanga te tikanga, ka whai koe i tana kupu ? Te Heuheu: Kei te utu te ritenga, kite iti iho te utu mo te Kaunihera Maori, koia tera taku c pai ai. 90. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaati, c penei ana tau kei te utu te tikanga. Xi te iti iho te utu mo te Kooti Whenua Maori koia tera tau c pai ai, a kite iti iho te utu o tetahi koia tera tau c pai ai ? Te Heuheu : Xi taku mohio, kite whakaturia nga Poari i runga i ta matou tikanga c hiahia nei, ka iti iho tona utu i to nga Kooti Whenua Maori. 91. Hon. Timi Kara : Tena, mo te Kaunihera tenei patai. Mehemea kite whakaturia taua Kaunihera, a, me ki noa ake, he whenua kei Wairarapa c meatia ana kia whakawakia, tena, ka karangatia pea c koutou te Kaunihera kia tv ki Wairarapa, kite wahi i takoto ai te whenua, ahakoa kei te pito whaka-raro kei te taha whaka-te-rawhiti kei tawhiti noa atu ranei nga kainga o etahi o nga mema o te Kaunihera ? Te Hettheu : Kaore matou c mea ana ko te Kotahitanga tonu te mea c haere ki nga whenua pena me Wairarapa, kite whakawa i nga kereeme, engari mana c hanga he ture me etahi tikanga hei whakahaere i nga mea katoa c pa ana ki nga Maori, c taea ai te whakatu o tetahi hunga o tetahi tikanga ranei hei whakawa i nga whenua pena me tena i Wairarapa na. 92. Hon. Timi Kara : E mea ana koe ma te Kaunihera c tuku atu he mana ki etahi atu hunga hei whakahaere i nga mahi whakawa whenua ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 93. Hon. Timi Kara : Tena, ko te hea hunga ta te Kaunihera c whakatu ai; me pehea tona whakatu ? Te Heuheu: Kei te Kotahitanga te ritenga, mana c tapa he ingoa. Tena pea c tapaina tona ingoa he Kooti Whenua Maori, he Komiti ranei, he Poari ranei. 94. Hon. Timi Kara: E penei ana taku mohio atu ki o korero, me whakatu etc Paremete tetahi mana i waenganui pu o te iwi, me karanga tona ingoa he Kaunihera, a me whai-mana taua Kaunihera kite whakatu i etahi Poari mo ia takiwa hei whakahaere i nga mahi whakawa i nga whenua katoa o nga Maori, penei tonu me ta te Kooti Whenua Maori c mahi nei ? Te Heuheu: Ac. 95. Hon. Timi Kara : Xi to mahara kite penatia te whakahaere ka iti iho nga moni c pau i nga moni c pau nei i te Kooti Whenua Maori ? Te Heuheu: Aua, he mahara noa iho naku tera c iti iho nga moni c pau, kei te mahinga c mohiotia ai. 96. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaati, ki tau kite kore he moni c whakapaua c kore ano hoki c taea aua mahi?

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Te Heuheu: Xi taku mahara kaore c rahi rawa nga moni c pau. 97. Hon. Timi Kara : Ma wai c utu aua moni ? Henare Kaihau :Ki taku mahara kaore c tika kia via tena patai, te take : mea c tonoa ana c ratou ko te mana kia hoatu i te tuatahi, a ma o ratou whenua c whakarite he whenua c taea ai te whakahaere ota ratou tikanga. Kua oti noa atu ite kai-whakahoki patai te whakamarama tena ano tetahi moni c wehea ana i ia tau i ia tau c te Paremete mo nga mahi c pa ana ki nga Maori, engari ko te nuinga o te moni mana c utu te whakahaerenga o te tikanga c mea nei ratou kia whakaturia ma ratou ano c kimi c whakarite —ara ma nga whenua c whakarite te moni. Hon. Timi Kara :' Koia tena te mea c hiahia nei tatou kia korerotia mai c ia. Te Tiamana : Xi taku mahara ma te kai-whakahoki patai ano c utu te patai. 98. Hon. Timi Kara : Me pehea ki tau he huarahi c taea ai he moni hei utu i te whakahaerenga o te tikanga c mea nei koutou kia whakaturia ? Te Heuheu : Kua oti tena patai te vi mai ki au, ara, tetahi patai pena tonu te ahua, c tetahi o nga mema o te Komiti nei, a whakahokia atu ana c au te patai. 99. Hon. Timi Kara : E hiahia ana ahau kia utua te patai kua via atu nei c au : me pehea ki tau he huarahi c taea ai he moni hei utu i nga moni c pau ana i nga Poari ? Te Heuheu : Tuatahi, ko te £7,000 kua korerotia ake nei c au; tuarua, ma nga Maori ano c whakarite etahi moni, ara, ma ratou c kimi i runga i a ratou huarahi c kite ai: tuatoru, ma o ratou whenua ano c utu ma tukuna atu o ratou whenua ki o ratou ringaringa, a ma ratou ano c hanga he ture hei whakahaere i aua whenua. Me whakahaßre aua whenua c ratou i runga i nga huarahi c ea haere ai nga moni katoa c pau ana i te whakahaerenga i aua whenua, a ma te Paremete c whakatuwhera he huarahi c ahei ai nga Maori kite utu haere i nga moni c pau ana i nga whakahaerenga mahi, ara, me ahua rite ki ta te Pire c whakarite nei, kia taea ai te nama he moni c te Poari. 100. Hon. Timi Kara : I runga i te mokete ? Te Heuheu : Ac. Ina ke hoki ta motu c whakahe ana mo te tikanga mokete c noho nei i roto i te Pire, ko te nui rawa o nga mana c hoatu ana kite Kawanatanga. Ta matou whakahe tuarua, kaore te Pire c whakarite ana i tetahi tikanga c matua riro ai ma nga Maori ano c whakaae katahi ka tika kia namaia he moni i runga i te mokete. 101. Hon. Timi Kara : E mea ana au kia whakarerea ake c koe te Pire. Me ki noa ake i naianei he kino te Pire, a me pana atu ki rahaki. Na, kua penei tatou me homai he mea hei whakakapi ite Pire. Eki ana koe c pai noa atu ana koe kia riro ma nga whenua c whakaea haere nga moni i pau i te whakahaerenga i nga whenua i raro i tau tikanga, ara, ma nga Maori c whakarite he moni ? Te Heuheu: Mehemea ka tau i te Kotahitanga ma nga whenua c whakarite he moni, koia tena. 102. Hon. Timi Kara: Me pehea ki tau c taea ai te whakaemi he moni? E pai ana koe kia taaketia nga whenua Maori kia rite ai he moni, me pehea ranei ? Te Heuheu : He patai uaua rawa tena. Heoi taku c kaha kite ki atu i naianei ma te Kotahitanga c whakarite he moni hei whakahaerenga i te mahi, a ko tana i whakarite ai koia tera taku. 103. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaati, c kore koe c pai kia riro mau c tohutohu he huarahi kite Komiti c taea ai te whakaemi aua moni, ara, c penei ana tau, me waiho te tikanga mo nga mahi katoa kite Kaunihera ? Te Heuheu: Heoi anake te take i kore ai au c pai maku c pena, koia tenei: kaore ano te mana i hoatu kite Kotahitanga. Mehemea kua whiwhi taua hunga i taua mana, ko te mahi tuatahi mana he kimi kia kitea ai he huarahi c taea ai c nga Maori te whakaemi he moni hei utu haere i nga moni c pau ana i nga whakahaerenga mahi. 104. Hon. Timi Kara : E pai ana ; tena mehemea kua whiwhi te Runanga i taua mana, a kitea ana c ia me whakaemi he moni kia maha nga mano pauna hei utu i nga whakahaerenga mahi, a tau ana i taua Runanga ma nga Maori ano c utu aua mahi, tena, ki tau whakaaro ko te hea tikanga ta te Runanga c whakahaere ai hei whakaemi moni ? Ka taaketia ranei etc Runanga nga whenua, ka paahitia ranei c taua hunga tetahi Pire Reiti ? Henare Kaihau : Xi taku mohio kaore te patai i te marama kite kai-whakahoki patai. 105. Te Tiamana : Maku pea ka marama ai. Mehemea he mema no te Runanga ote Kotahitanga te kai-whakahoki patai, ka pehea tana kupu kite Runanga kia taea ai te whakahaere o nga mahi ? Te Hettheu : Xi taku mahara kite tau i te Runanga me taake nga whenua, heoi c kore pea c kinongia taua tikanga. 106. Te Tiamana : Ehara tena ite utu ki taku patai. Mehemea he mema koe no te Runanga o te Kotahitanga, ka pehea te ahua o au kupu ki taua Runauga kia taea ai te whakahaere o nga mahi? Ka pooti koe kite hea taha, ka tautoko ranei ka whakakore ranei koe ite taake? Te Heuheu : Xi te marama i au i taua wa, me tautoko te taake ka pera ahau, a kite marama i au me whakakore te taake ka pera ahau. 107. Hon. Timi Kara: Kaati, haunga te taake, ki to mahara he pai ranei kia whakaaetia te Runanga kia whakaemi moni i runga i te mokete ? Te Heuheu : Ac. Mehemea koia tera te hiahia ote Runanga heoi ka pera hoki toku hiahia; ki taku ake whakaaro me pera—e. tika ana te whenua kia moketetia. 108. Kapene Bahera: He aha te mea c hoatu c koe hei punga kia tika ai te whakahoki o nga moni ? Te Heuheu : Ko te whenua. 109. Kapene Bahera : A kite kore c whakahokia aua moni me hoko atu te whenua ? Te Heuheu: Na kona au ikiaima te Runanga o te Kotahitanga c ata whiriwhiri enei mea katoa c hanga he ture hei whakahaere, hei tuku, hei mokete ranei, i nga whenua i runga i tana i kite ai he tika, me te whakaae ano a nga tangata no ratou te whenua c mahia ana.

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110. Hon. Timi Kara : Kua korero koe mo te whakarapopototanga o te Pire i tuhaina nei c te Kawanatanga a i mauria haeretia nei ki nga huihuinga Maori a i whiriwhiria nei c aua huihuinga? Te Heuheu: Ac. 111. Hon. Timi Kara: Iki koe ko nga wahi ote Pire i whakaaetia c nga hui me nga whakatikatikanga i te Pire i mahia c aua hui, koia tera te Pire tuatahi i perehitia i tuhaina a i whakaariaria c te Kawanatanga i te tuunga o aua huihui ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 112. Hon. Timi Kara : A ko to whakahe kite Pire c takoto nei he kore kaore i whakaurua ki te Pire aua whakarikatikanga —ara, he Pire ke noatu tenei ? Te Heuheu : Xi taku mahara kaore pea i pena taku korero. I penei taku kupu kaore te ahua o tenei Pire i rite kite mea tuatahi. 113. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaore koia i penei na to kupu : ko te take i whakahe ai koe kite Pire c takoto nei he rereke rawa atu no tona ahua i te Pire tuatahi ? Te Heuheu : Kaore i pena taku kupu. I whakahe ahau kite Pire tuatahi, ano te putanga ote Pire tuarua i muri iho whakahe ana ano hoki au ki tera. 114. Hon. Timi Kara : Kua waia pea koe ki nga whakahaerenga o te Ture Taone Maori ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 115. Hon. Timi Kara : Kei te whakapai koe ki taua Ture ? Te Heuheu : Me penei taku kupu : ehara i au te tikanga o tena Ture ; ehara i te mea naku ia i mahi. Mehemea kei te kino taua Ture no te Paremete tena he. Itewa c mahia ana taua Ture etc Paremete i tono au kia whakaurua etahi menemana ki roto, engari kaore i whakaaetia. Ko nga mea i uru kite Ture Taone Maori he mea whakauru atu i waho. Kaore taua Ture ite tino rite ki taku i hiahia ai. 116. Hon. Timi Kara : Haunga tena, engari kaore koe c whakahe ana mo nga tikanga me nga mahi c whakahaerea ana i raro i taua Ture ? Te Heuheu : Kaore kau ; kaore ano he whakahe maku i tae te Paremete mo taua mea. 117. Hon. Timi Kara: Kei te mohio ha koe ki nga tikanga o taua Ture, ara, ko tana mahi he tango i etahi wahi o nga whenua Maori ka roherohe hei tuunga taone. Riihitia ai nga tekihana 0 roto i te taone i runga i etahi tikanga ano, whakaturia ai he Poari, he Maori etahi he apiha Kawanatanga etahi, hei whakahaere i te whenua, a wehea ai etahi wahi o te whenua hei rahui mo nga Maori ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 118. Hon. Timi Kara : Kua whakahaerea nga tikanga o taua Ture ki tou ake kainga, a kua tv he taone ki reira : a he vi atu tenei, ki to mohio c pai ana ranei te whakahaere a taua Pire ? Te Heuheu: Kaore ano ate Maori mahi i raro i taua Ture, ko te Kawanatanga anake kei te whakahaere i nga mahi, a kite whakahe au i naianei ka whakahe huhua kore noa iho au i te mea kua mana taua Ture. Heoi te mahi c taea eau i naianei he whakahaere tikanga c pai ake ai taua Ture. I tono ahau kite Tumuaki Kai-ruri kia hoatu he mana ki nga Maori kia ahei ai ratou kite whakatu i tetahi komiti, a whakaae ana ia. I tono hoki ahau kite Tumuaki Kai-ruri kia rahuitia nga tino puia i roto i te taone hei painga mo matou, a whakaae ana ia. Na ena whakatikatikanga i pai ake ai ahau i whakaae ai ahau kia uru ahau kite Poari whakahaere, c hara i te mea he kite noku i te pai o taua tikanga i uru ai ahau, kaati tonu i te mea kua ahua pai ake ona tikanga i to te tuatahi. 119. Hon. Timi Kara : Me pehea ki tau c pai ake ai i naianei ? Te Heuheu : He mea whanau hou mai taua Ture, a kaore anoi mohiotia ka pehea tana tupu. 120. Hon. Timi Kara : Kia kite marire koe i tetahi he katahi koe ka whakahe ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 121. Hon. Timi Kara: Te take i mea ai au kia whakaputaina mai c koe o whakaaro mo taua Ture, he rite no etahi o ona tikanga ki etahi o nga tikanga o te Pire c takoto nei i to tatou aroaro. 1 whai-kupu koe mo te Tiriti o Waitangi : mau c whakaatu mai nga whakaaro o nga Maori mo te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Hettheu: Te take i korero ai au mo te Tiriti o Waitangi, iau c korero ana ki tenei Komiti i nga ra c rua kua pahemo ake nei, he whakatutuki naku i te tono ate pitihana. E penei ana te patai, c pehea ana te whakaaro o nga Maori mo te Tiriti o Waitangi i naianei. 122. Hon. Timi Kara : He aha ta ratou c mea ana kia puta ki a ratou i raro i taua mea ? Te Heuheu : E mea ana ratou kia whakaorangia o ratou mate, notemea kua whakatuturutia c taua tiriti kite iwi Maori ano te mana whakahaere mo a ratou nei ake mea i runga i ta ratou tikanga i kite ai c puta ai te ora ki a ratou. Koia tena te mea c hiahiatia ana etc iwi Maori. 123. Hon. Timi Kara : Me panui atu eau te rarangi tuarua o te tiriti: "Ko te Kuini o Ingarangi ka whakarite ka whakaae ki nga Rangatira, ki nga Hapu, ki nga tangata katoa o Niu Tireni, te tino Rangatiratanga o o ratou whenua o ratou kainga me o ratou taonga katoa. Otiia ko nga Rangatira o te Whakaminenga, me nga Rangatira katoa atu, ka tuku kite Kuini te hokonga o era wahi whenua c pai ai te tangata nona te whenua, kite ritenga o te utu c whakaritea ai c ratou ko te kai hoko c meatia nei etc Kuini hei kai hoko mona." Koia tenei tau i mea ake nei? Te Heuheu: Ac. Koia tena taku i whakaatu ai, koia tena te rarangi i tono ai matou kia whakaturia he Runanga mo matou. E hiahia ana matou kia whakatutukitia tena rarangi. Ina hoki c ki ana te rarangi 3 (c) o ta matou pitihana, " Kei te takahi nga tikanga o te Pire i nga kupu me te aronga o te Tiriti o Waitangi, i nga tika hoki o te iwi Maori i runga i to ratou urunga hei iwi mo te Kuinitanga o Ingarangi." 124. Hon. Timi Kara : E pai ana; me titiro c tatou te wahi tuatahi ote rarangi, "Ko te Kuini o Ingarangi ka whakarite ka whakaae ki nga Rangatira, ki nga Hapu, ki nga tangata katoa o Niu Tireni, te tino Rangatiratanga o o ratou whenua me o ratou kainga me o ratou taonga katoa." Kua takahia ranei tenei ? Kei te mohio au eki ana nga Maori kua takatakahia te Tiriti o Waitangi ; engari c patai ana au ki a koe, kua takahia ranei te wahi i panuitia ake nei ?

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Te Heuheu: Ka korero atu au i taku ake whakaaro. Ac; kua takahia te wahi tuatahi ote rarangi tuarua o te tiriti. 125. Hon. Timi Kara : I peheatia te takahi ? Te Heuheu : Koia tenei, kaore ano ona tikanga i whakatutukitia. Ko nga mana mo nga Maori i whakatuturutia nei c taua rarangi kaore ano i hoatu ki a ratou. 126. Hon. Timi Kara: Kaore ano koia i hoatu nga taitara o o ratou whenua ki a ratou ? Te Heuheu : Ac; kua hoatu ; engari na nga Pakeha anake i mahi. Ite huihuinga ote Paremete tuatahi ki Akarana he Pakeha anake nga mema, kaore kau he mema Maori. Itewa i uru tuatahi ai nga mema Maori kite Paremete kaore ratou i mohio ki nga mahi c mahia ana. Heoi ta ratou he mahi noa iho" he whakaae noa iho i nga mea c korerotia atu ana ki a ratou. 127. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaore koia i tukua atu ki nga Maori nga taitara o ratou whenua ma whakataua o ratou take tika kite whenua ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; i runga i ta te Karauna i kite ai. 128. Hon. Timi Kara : Xi nga whenua katoa i kitea c tika ana kia tau ki a ratou anake? Te Hettheu : Ac ; engari me ki atu au i whakaae ai nga Maori ki ena ritenga he kuare no ratou ki nga tikanga c mahia ana. Ka mea atu te Karauna me mea te mea, ki tonu atu ratou, " Ac, c pai ana," te take i pera ai kaore ratou i mohio ki tona tikanga. E mohio ana ahau timata mai i reira tae mai ki naianei he karanga hui tonu te mahi a nga Maori, he kimi tikanga c taea ai te whakatutuki o nga mea c tonoa nei c ratou. 129. Hon. Timi Kara : Ehara koia tena i te whakatutuki i te aronga o te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Heuheu : E penei ana taku : te mea tuatahi nana i mohio ai nga Maori kei te tinihangatia ratou, koia tenei: I paahitia tetahi ture kia mana ai te whakaputa Karauna karaati ki nga tangata takitahi, hei kai-tiaki mo ratou tahi ko etahi atu tangata, a kitea ana ka taea c aua tangata o nga Karauna karaati te hoko atu o aua whenua a ka waiho tera hei mate mo te nuinga o nga tangata i uru kite whenua, a i whakapaua etc iwi Maori ona kaha kite whakamutu i taua tikanga. Katahi ka whakaaetia kia tuhia nga ingoa o nga tangata katoa i uru kite whenua ki tua o te tiwhikete mo te whenua, i raro ite ture ote tau 1867 : kua wareware au kite ingoa o taua tv pukapuka nei. Na te aue o nga Maori i whakakorea ai te tikanga kaore nei c nuku atu i te tekau tangata c uru kite Karauna karaati, a hoatu atu ana ko te tiwhikete hei whakakapi. Muri iho i tera ka kitea ano c nga Maori tetahi take i aue ai ratou, te whakahoki o tera ko te ture tiwhikete, c uru nei nga tangata katoa ote whenua ki roto. Muri iho i tera ka paahitia ko te Ture ote tau 1873 ; kua wareware au kite ingoa o taua Ture, engari i pa taua mea ki nga whenua Maori. Ko te tangi me te tohe ate iwi Maori c penei ana, ma ratou ano c hanga he ture mo ratou i raro i te mana i tukua atu nei ki a ratou c te Tiriti o Waitangi, engari kei te mau tonu te pupuri a te Karauna ki taua mana me aua tika, kaore c makere mai i a ia, he pakupaku nei nga wahi c kinitia mai ana ma nga Maori. Mai ano i taua wa tae mai ki naianei he pera tonu te mahi a te Kawanatanga ki nga Maori. Na reira heoi ta matou ta te iwi Maori kupu : Kua maha nga tau i waiho atu ai kite iwi Pakeha anake te mana whakahaere me te mana tuku i nga whenua c korerotia nei, a kua kitea i runga i ta te Pakeha whakahaere kaore kau he painga c puta ana kite Maori i nga whenua; heoi he pahuhu tonu atu kite ngaro te mahi a nga whenua Maori. Whakahokia mai ki a matou, ma matou ano c whakahaere ; me whakaaro matou c koe, c te taha Pakeha. 130. Hon. Timi Kara: Kaore kau pea he Maori puta noa nga motu nei kaore i kore te hoko whenua i tona wa ? Te Heuheu : Kua hoko whenua ahau. 131. Hon. Timi Kara: I hokohoko whenua ratou i raro ite hea mana : i raro pea ite mana o te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Heuheu: Koia tena te take i inoi ai te iwi Maori kite Kuini, ara, " Kaati, c rite ai tenei inoi ki a koe a o iwi Maori me paahi rawa he ture hei tino kati, hei tino arai i te Karauna me te Pakeha noa iho kia mutu te hoko i o matou morehu whenua." 132. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaati, c hiahia ana koe kia whakarereketia te aronga o te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Heuheu : Ko tera wahi anake o te Tiriti o Waitangi c tuku nei i o matou tika kite Kuini ta matou c mea ana kia whakarereketia. 133. Hon. Timi Kara : Me to koutou mana kite hoko i o koutou whenua ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; me te hoko whenua a te Tari Hoko Whenua ma te Karauna me whakamutu i naianei tonu. Ahakoa kua tino kaha te tohe a nga Maori mo tenei kaore ano i whakamutua te hoko whenua a nga apiha hoko whenua. Kei te mahi tonu ratou ita ratou mahi c whakapau nei i te whenua. Hon. Timi Kara : Ma tetahi Pire anake kia paahitia c taea ai te whakamutu o tena mahi. I naianei kaore te Kawanatanga ite timata hoko hou. Kua rongo matou ki tena wahi ote tono a nga Maori, a kite oti i a matou ko nga Maori tetahi tikanga marama tera c whakamutua c matou era atu hoko.

Tueei, 4 o Oketopa, 1898. Te Heuheu : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 134. Te Maka (Mr. Monk) : Xi taku whakarongo atu, i ahua taunu to korero i nanahi, i a koe i korero ake ra, no te rongonga o te Kuini me te Kawanatanga o Ingarangi kite papai o te whakatupu me te ata ahua o te tangata me te wahine o te iwi o Niu Tireni, na reira haere mai ana ki konei tangohia ake te whenua? Te Heuheu : Kaore au i mea hei kupu taunu ena. E korero kau ana au i aku i rongo ai, c kiia ana hoki koi rate take, ara, i tae te rongo o tenei whenua me ona iwi ki Ingarangi, a tau ana te kupu kaua c tukuna tenei iwi kia patupatua kia ngaro. Kua wareware au ki nga mihinare nana i taea ai taua tikanga.

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135. Te Maka : Te take o tena patai aku hei huarahi c marama ai te vi atu o tenei patai, ara : ki to whakaaro i ora ranei te iwi Maori kaore ranei i te otinga i te Kawanatanga o Ingarangi raua ko te iwi Maori o te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Heuheu : E penei ana koia to patai, i raro i nga tikanga i whakatakotoria c te Tiriti o Waitangi ? 136. Te Maka: Ac ra, i te rironga o te koroni ki raro ite mana, ara, ite Kawanatanga o Ingarangi—i ora ranei te iwi Maori i tera kaore ranei ? Te Heuheu: E mea ana koe kia korero atu au i taku i mohio ai, ara, i ora ranei te iwi Maori i taua tiriti kaore ranei ? 137. Te Maka': A hoki ra, i ora ranei kaore ranei ? Te Heuheu : Xi taku mahara ko te mate ke te mea i pa kite iwi Maori i taua mea kaore te ora. Xi taku whakaaro :ko te Tiriti o Waitangi, c ai ki tona ritenga i whakaaetia ai, hei ora tera mo nga kaumatua i rokohanga i te wa o taua mea, engari ko nga mahi i whakahaerea i muri mai i runga i taua Tiriti o Waitangi i whakahaerea hetia, a kaore he ora i puta kite iwi Maori i aua mahi. 138. Te Maka: Taihoa tatou c tae ai ki kona. E penei ana taku patai ki a koe, mehemea kaore te Kawanatanga o Ingarangi i tae mai ki konei—mehemea i waiho noa iho te whenua ki nga Maori, mehemea ranei i riro i tetahi atu iwi—me ki noa ake, i riro ite Wiwi—a kaore pea i penei me te Ingarihi te pai o tana mahi ki nga Maori, ka pehea ? Te Heuheu : Ac, c tika ana; kei te mohio au kite tika o tena korero, ara, na te rironga o tenei whenua ki raro i te kuinitanga o Ingarangi—ara, ki raro i te mana o te Kuini—me te otinga o te Tiriti o Waitangi hei whakamaurutanga mo te iwi Maori, i maha ai nga morehu o te iwi Maori c ora nei i tenei ra. 139. Te Maka : E ki ana koe kei te matau koe ki nga tikanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 140. Te Maka : Kua ata hurihuria ranei c koe te tikanga o te rarangi whakamutunga o taua tiriti ? Te Heuheu: Kaore ; kaore kau aku kape o taua tiriti. 141. Te Maka : E mea ana au kite whakamatau i a koe, kia kitea ai mehemea ranei kei te mohio koe ki nga tino tikanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Heuheu : Kaore au eki ana kei te mohio au ki ona tikanga katoa. 142. Te Maka : Me panui atu c au tona rarangi whakamutunga ki a koe " Hei whakaritenga mai hoki tenei mo te whakaaetanga kite Kawanatanga o te Kuini. Ka tiakina c te Kuini o Ingarangi nga tangata Maori katoa o Niu Tireni. Ka tukua ki a ratou nga tikanga katoa rite tahi ki ana mea ki nga tangata o Ingarangi." Kei te whakahe ranei koe kite rama whakamutunga o taua rarangi ? Te Heuheu : Xi taku mahara i korero ano ahau mo nga rarangi na i te ra tuatahi i korero ai au kite Komiti nei. 143. Te Maka : Kaore koe i korero mo te rarangi whakamutunga ? Te Heuheu : Xi taku titiro kei te tautoko ena kupu i te rarangi tuarua o te tiriti, a i korero au mo te rarangi tuarua i te ra tuatahi. 144. Te Maka : Koia tena; kaati, ki to whakaaro ko to tono c mea nei koe kia whakaturia he Poari Maori c kore ranei c rangirua te ahua c taupatupatu ki nga tikanga me nga whakahaere Pakeha i raro i to tatou Kawanatanga tahi c mana nei—ara, c kore ranei c takoto ke nga whakahaere mo nga Pakeha c takoto ke mo nga Maori ma whakaturia te Poari c tonoa nei ? Te Heuheu: Xi taku mahara ma tena c tutuki ai nga tikanga ote Tiriti o Waitangi, ara, nga wahi o taua tiriti c ki nei ki nga Maori ano te mana mo a ratou nei mea katoa. 145. Te Maka : Engari he aha i mea ai koe me paahi rawa he Ture motuhake mo tena ? Kei au ano aku nei ake mea c whakahaere ana, kaore kau oku hiahia ki tetahi Ture motuhake moku kia ahei ai ahau kite whakahaere i aku mea —ko toku hiahia, ko to te Pakeha hiahia, kia kaua matou c whakararurarutia c nga ture motuhake ? Te Heuheu : He patai tena ? 146. Te Maka : Ac; me penei c ahau : Mehemea he mahinga kai he paamu ranei a koutou, kua oti te wehewehe ki ia tangata, ka ki ranei koe he tikanga tika kia haere mai tetahi tangata ki te tohutohu ki a koutou me penei na me pera rate whakahaere ; na ko nga whakahaere c pa ana ki nga kainga o nga Maori ka pa ano hoki ki era atu mea katoa a te Maori ? Te Heuheu : E penei ana taku : Kua oti etahi ture i te tuatahi te paahi i runga i te aronga o te Tiriti o Waitangi hei kimi hei whakatau i nga tangata no ratou te whenua, hei whakaputa i nga taitara o nga whenua Maori, c puritia ai aua whenua i runga i te ture, kei te pai ena ki ta te Maori titiro ; no muri i ena ka paahitia etahi atu ture me etahi atu tikanga nana i arai nga Maori i kore ai c taea c ratou te mahi a ratou nei mea i hiahia ai mo o ratou whenua, a koia enei, ko nga tikanga me nga ture o muri nei, nga mea c hiahia nei ratou kia whakakorea atu. Koia tenei te take i tono tonu ai te iwi Maori kia hoatu he mana ki a ratou kia ahei ai ratou kite hanga tikanga mo ratou. 147. Te Maka: E marama ana tena, c tika ana tena, a kei te whakaae atu ahau kite tika o tena. Kaati, c penei ana tau kua takahia te Tiriti o Waitangi c nga ture i mahia a i paahitia eto tatou Paremete ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 148. Te Maka: Xi taku titiro i a Kapene Rahera c patai ana ki a koe i rereke to whakahoki, mehemea nei kaore ano i ata hurihuria c koe nga uauatanga katoa me nga rarurarutanga katoa tera c tupono ma tahuri koutou kite whakahaere i ta koutou c tono nei kia tukua atu ma koutou ano c whakahaere a koutou nei mea ? Te Heuheu : Kaati, ko te tino mea c ngana nei matou kite whakaatu ki a koutou mo te Pire Poari nei, koia tenei: Itewa i haria ai te Pire nei ite tuatahi, i whakaariaria ai ki nga huihuinga Maori i tino rereke tona ahua i tona ahua c takoto nei.

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149. Te Maka : Kua oti tena i a koe te korero mai ki a matou ? Te Heuheu : Hei whakamarama i taku whakahoki atu i korero ai ano ahau i tena. Ko tenei Pire c takoto nei i o tatou aroaro c tino rereke ana i te Pire tuatahi. 150. Te Maka : Kaore au ite hiahia ki tena; ko taku c hiahia ana kia korero mai koe i nga kino i nga pai i nga aha ranei ote Pire. Tera c tino kaha rawa ake te whakamoemiti ote Komiti nei ki a koe mehemea i ata hurihuria c koe tetahi Pire mau, a tuhituhi rawa kite pukapuka ka hari mai ai ki konei, hei whakaatuatu mai ki a matou i te ahua o tau Poari c whakatu ai, me te ata tuhituhi ano me te ata tohutohu mai ano i nga huarahi c taea ai nga uauatanga ma whakahaerea te tikanga c tonoa nei c koutou ? Te Heuheu : Koia tena te mea c whaia atu ana c taku korero. Ko ta matou c tono atu ana ki te Komiti i naianei c penei ana kaua c whakahaerea tenei Pire i tenei huihuinga o te Paremete, kia whai taima ai matou kite tino whiriwhiri i nga wahi katoa o tenei mea, kia tau ai i a matou tetahi tino tikanga tuturu, a hei a muri ake nei ma matou c tono atu kia riro ko tera hei whakakapi mo te Pire c takoto nei. Kia tino oti i a matou katoa, i te iwi Maori, te hanga tetahi tikanga, kia oti rawa ona wahi katoa, hei reira ka tono atu matou kia whakaaetia ta matou Pire i hanga ai kia haria mai kite aroaro o tenei Komiti hei riiwhi mo tenei Pire c takoto nei. Mo te kupu eki nei me korero atu c matou ta matou c hiahia ana kia hoatu hei riiwhi mo te Pire nei, c kore matou c kaha kite penai naianei. Te take kaore ano matou i tino roa ki Poneke, a no matou tonu c noho nei i Poneke katahi ano matou ka kite i te whakamaoritanga o te Pire nei, na reira c kore ano c taea c matou i te poto rawa o te taima te hanga i tetahi Pire oti rawa ona wahi katoa, hei whakakapi i te Pire c takoto nei. Kei te 15 o nga ra o Maehe c haere ake nei ka tv te Kotahitanga kite waihi i hainatia ai te Tiriti o Waitangi, a c hiahia ana matou kia mahia ki reira tetahi Pire. E hiahia ana matou kia tae te Pirimia me Timi Kara ki reira, ma raua c tohutohu mai etahi mea kia tino whiriwhiria ai tenei mea ki reira. 151. Te Maka : E hiahia ana ahau kia kite, kei te tino matatau ranei nga Maori kite mea c wawata nei ratou kite mahi, kia whakapono ai te Komiti nei ac ka taea c te iwi Maori taua mahi ma whakakorea atu te Pire c takoto nei. lav c korero nei kaore au ite tautoko ite turaki ranei i te Pire. Kaore koia koe c whakaaro ana, mehemea c tino matatau ana nga Maori ki ta ratou c hiahia nei, he pai ke kia whiriwhiria kia tokoouou nei o ratou c huihui ki tetahi wahi ki reira hanga ai i ta ratou Pire, ara, kaua c haria kite huihui nui ka tv nei ki Waitangi, heoi kau nei te mahi c oti ki reira ko nga korero noa iho? Ina hoki nga tino mea hei whiriwhiri, ko te moni hei whakahaere i ta koutou tikanga, ko nga ruri me pehea c ea ai, ko te Poari me pehea rate utu, me era atu mea katoa. Ko te moni iti c wehea nei etc Paremete mo nga mahi Maori, ara, te £7,000 iia tau, i korero ra koe ma tera c utu haere enei mea katoa, c kore rawa c taea c tena ena mahi te whakaea haere. Tena me pehea he huarahi c whakaemia ai he moni hei whakahaere i ena mea katoa ; kei te tino matatau ranei koe c kore c hoatu he moni kite kore c hoatu hoki nga whenua hei punga mo aua moni, a kite utaina c koe aua moni ki runga ki nga whenua me pehea c koe c ngahoro atu ai aua nama i runga i nga whenua. Kaore ano koia koe i mohio ko nga mate epa nei ki nga Maori i putake mai ano i a ratou, i to ratou kore tupato kite ata whakahaere i a ratou moni, ara, i ta ratou mahi rukeruke noa ake i a ratou moni ? He tito koia na te moumou noa iho ote Maori i ona rawa i tupono ai ia kite raruraru? Tenei ano tetahi mea hei patai maku ki a koe : ehara koia i te mea na te kore kaore c puare ana nga whenua Maori kite riihi kite hoko mo te utu nui i pa ai tetahi mate tino taumaha ki nga Maori i naianei ? Te Heuheu : Ko te mahi tonu tena a nga Maori, he tono kia whakakorea atu tena tikanga. Ka maha nga tononga atu o tena kite Paremete nei. 152. Te Maka : Kei te rite ranei taua tikanga c arai nei i nga whenua Maori ki ta te Tiriti o Waitangi i whakatakoto ai ? Te Heuheu : Me ki atu au, ac, i runga i tetahi aronga kei te rite kite Tiriti o Waitangi —ara, ki tetahi wahi o taua mea —kite wahi eki nei mo hoko anake kite Kuini nga whenua; a i runga i tetahi aronga kei te tino takahi taua tikanga, c arai nei i nga whenua Maori, i te Tiriti o Waitangi. Ko te mahi hokohoko Whenua Maori a nga apiha a te Kawanatanga kei te tika i runga i te Tiriti o Waitangi; engari kotahi te rarangi ote Tiriti o Waitangi kaore ano i whakatutukitia, ara, ko te rarangi c ki nei ma nga taha c rua c whakariterite te utu o te whenua c hokona ana i nga Maori. Kaore ano tenei i rite noa. 153. Te Maka : Ara, c penei ana tau, he ture ke mo nga Maori he ture ke mo nga Pakeha, ma hoki ko te Kawanatanga tonu kei te arai i kore ai nga Maori c whiwhi i te utu nui mo o ratou whenua, penei he Pakeha ratou kua kore taua tikanga c taea? Te Heuheu : Koia tena ta matou kupu i tuku atu ai ki ate Kuini; he whakaatu kei te whakahaerea kinotia nga Maori i runga i tenei take. 154. Wi Pere : Mehemea i whakaurua kite Pire c takoto nei nga whakatikatika me nga menemana i mahia nei c te hui ki Papawai, ka pehea? Te Heuheu: Kaore au c mohio me pehea he utu atu mo tena patai, notemea ki taku mahara kaore c tika kia via mai tena patai, kia uru rawa nga menemana kite Pire katahi ka tika te vi mai i tena patai. Mehemea kua uru aua mea kite Pire katahi au ka marama kite patai nei, tena ko tenei kei te wehe ke te Pire, ara, kaore aua menemana me aua whakatikatikanga i whakaurua kite Pire, na reira ki taku mahara kaore c tika ana te patai nei kia via. Na te Pirimia tonu i ata tohutohu mai etahi kupu mo nga menemana me nga rarangi hou i takoto nei kite aroaro o te hui ki Papawai. Nana tonu i mea kia peratia. No taua taima hoki i mea atu ai ia ki nga Maori kia ata tirohia te Pire tuatahi a ma ratou c mahi a ratou whakatikatika i kite ai, kia mutu tera te mahi c ratou me tuku atu ki aia i mua ote urunga o te Pire kite Paremete. I te mea kaore i rite ite Pirimia taua kupu ana, he aha hoki te tikanga i patairia ai te patai nei ki au i naianei. . 155. Wi Pere : E penei ana taku patai kite kai-whakahoki patai: Mehemea i uru enei menemana, etahi ranei, kite Pire, ka pehea ia? Te Heuheu : Kua ki atu au kaore au i te pai kite whakahoki atu i tena patai, a, ahakoa tera,

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kupu aku, kua via mai ano taua patai ki au. Ma te Tiamana eki mai kia whakahokia eau katahi ka whakahokia. Te Tiamana: Xi taku mahara kei te marama noa atu te patai, a c tika ana kia utua etc kaiwhakahoki patai. Te Reuheu : I te mea kua kiia mai me whakahoki c au te patai, kaati, me penei taku whakahoki: Kaore au c whakaae ki aua whakatikatikanga, notemea he wahanga iti no te iwi nana i mahi i whakaae aua menemana, a kaore hoki aua mea i whakaaetia c te nuinga o te iwi Maori katoa, ite mea kaore ratou i kite. Na reira ka ki atu au :Me hari tenei Pire kia kite nga iwi katoa o te Motu nei, hei ata hurihuri ma ratou, a hei taua wa c tahuri ai kite whakatikatika i te Pire. 156. Wi Pere : E ki ana koe kaore koe c whakaae notemea he tokoiti te wahanga o te iwi nana i whakaae aua menemana ? Te Heuheu : Ka rua aku whakahokinga i tena patai. Eki ana ahau na te mea ko tetahi taha anake o te Pire te wahi i whakaratoa ki nga Maori i te tuatahi, i pena ai tetakoto o aua menemana; tuarua, ko ena whakatikatika na tetahi taha anake o te iwi i mahi kaore tetahi taha i whakaae ki aua mea. He nui te tangata i hui ki Papawai, engari i pakaru taua iwi. I whakaae tetahi taha ki nga whakatikatika i mahia mo te Pire, ko tetahi taha i whakahe, i ki " Kaore matou c whakaae; he whakarapopototanga kau tenei no te pire, ehara tenei c whakatikatikaina nei c koutou i katoa te pire, na reira ehara tenei ite tino Pire ; kei muri ano i tenei te tino Pire." Na reira tatari ana te hunga i whakahe ki aua whakatikatika kia kite ra ano ratou i te tino Pire. 157. Wi Pere : Kaati, ka poto noa iho taku patai ki tepoto hoki tau whakahoki mai. E mohio ana koe kei te tautoko te Tai Eawhiti i tenei Pire. Na, kite tau i tenei Korniti he Pire pai tenei mo te Tai Eawhiti, aka hiahia ratou ki tenei Pire, ka pehea koe ? Ka whakahe tonu ranei koe ki te Pire nei ? Te Heuheu : Taku kupu c kore rawa au c whakaae ki tekiona 11 me tekiona 12 me ona wawahanga tekiona nama (1) tae noa ki nama (7). 158. Wi Pere : Ehara tena i te utu ki taku patai. I ki ahau, kite hiahia nga iwi ote Tai Bawhiti kia paahitia tenei Pire hei whakahaere mo to ratou nei takiwa, ka whakahe tonu ranei koe? Te Heuheu : Kua utua atu eau tena. Kua ki atu au kite paahitia a tekiona 11 me 12 tae atu ki o raua wawahanga i roto i te Pire nei, ahakoa me whaimana kite Tai Eawhiti anake tenei Pire, ka whakahe tonu ahau. 159. Wi Pere : Ahakoa whakatikatikaina aua tekiona? Te Heuheu : Ac ; kite whakatikatikaina kia kore rawa ai nga tangata o nga takiwa, c hiahia ana kia whakahaerea te Ture ki runga ki o ratou whenua, c kaha kite mea kia taoro atu te whakahaerenga o taua Ture ki runga ki nga whenua o nga tangata kaore i te hiahia ki taua Ture kia whakahaerea ki runga ki o ratou whenua, kite pera nga whakatikatika, katahi ano au ka ki " E pai ana; kei a koutou te whakaaro," engari ko te tikanga o enei tekiona c penei ana kaore rawa he whenua c kapea ki waho o te mana whakahaere o te Pire ma paahitia taua mea hei ture. 160. Wi Pere : Kei te patai ke au mo te Tai Eawhiti. Ko te hea hapu ote Tai Eawhiti tau c wehi na kei mate i te Pire ? Te Heuheu : Kaore pea koe i te marama kite tikanga o taku korero i whakahoki atu nei. 161. Wi Pere: Iki koe ka whakapai koe kite Pire kite kore epa atu ki etahi atu tangata: ko c hea iwi o te Tai Eawhiti c mate i tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu: E penei ana taku, ahakoa i paahitia tenei Pire mo nga whenua ote Tai Eawhiti anake, kaore c kore te taoro atu o enei tekiona ki nga whenua i waho atu, c ai ki taku i mohio ai, kite kore c whakatikatikaina. 162. Wi Pere ; Kua mutu tena patai aku ki a koe ; he patai ke tenei naku ki a koe. He aha te tikanga o to korero ka pa he mate ki nga whenua o etahi atu tangata i enei tekiona—ko wai ma ena tangata ena iwi ranei i roto ite rohe ote Tai Eawhiti ? Ka patai atu au : Mehemea ranei mo nga whenua anake o roto i te rohe o te Tai Eawhiti to whakahoki mai i te patai ? Kaore aku patai mo nga whenua o waho atu i taua rohe ? Te Heuheu : Ka mau tonu ahau ki taku eki nei, kaore au c whakaae. E kore au c whakaae ki te kore enei tekiona c patua atu. 163. Wi Pere : Ko c hea nga hapu c mate , i ena tekiona ? Te Heuheu : Ko nga hapu katoa o tenei Motu. 164. Wi Pere : Kua puta ano koe ki waho ? Te Heuheu: Xi taku mohio he utu tika tena mo to patai. E penei ana taku kite paahitia tenei Pire i runga i tona ahua c mau nei, me te mau tonu ano o nga tekiona c rua nei i roto, c ki ana ahau kite pena ka taoro atu tona mana ki nga whenua kei waho o te rohe o te Tai Eawhiti c takoto ana, a ko koe c ki ana ka pa anake ki nga whenua anake o te Tai Eawhiti. 165. Wi Pere : Kia marama ra koe ki taku patai; ko taua patai ra ano :Ko c hea whenua ote Tai Eawhiti c mate i tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu : E penei ana taku, kaore au c whakaae kia paahitia tenei Pire. Ka mau tonu taku whakahe ahakoa hiahia nga tangata o te Tai Eawhiti kia paahitia hei ture mo to ratou takiwa. 166. Wi Pere : Ka patai ano au ko te hea o nga iwi o te Tai Eawhiti c mate i tenei Pire kite paahitia ? Ito whakahokinga mai i taku patai iki koe ko te iwi katoa. E mea ana au kia tino karopotia rawatia tena wahi, na reira ka hou ano taku patai, ko te hea o nga hapu o te Tai Eawhiti c mate i tenei Pire ma paahitia hei ture ? Te Heuheu : Kaore c whai ito patai taku whakahoki atu. Kaore au itekiko te hea ko te hea ranei o nga hapu ote Tai Eawhiti c mate. Kaore au itekime pa te Pire ki etahi hapu a kaua c pa ki etahi hapu. I penei taku kupu kite patua atu enei tekiona c rua i roto ite Pire ka whakaae au kia paahitia hei ture mo nga hapu katoa o te Tai Eawhiti; engari kite kore c tapahia atu aua tekiona i roto i te Pire c kore hoki au c whakaae kia paahitia hei ture ahakoa mo nga iwi anake o te takiwa kite Tai Eawhiti. 4—l. 3a.

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167. Wi Pere : E pena ana ra hoki taku patai, ara, mehemea ka whakatikatikaina aua tekiona, aka meatia kia pa kite takiwa kite Tai Rawhiti anake te Pire ; engari mehemea nei kaore koe i marama ki taku patai. Tena, i puta to korero mo te Pire a Henare Kaihau: kei te tautoko koe i taua Pire ? Te Heuheu: Ko aku korero mo te Pire a Henare Kaihau c rite tahi ana ki aku korero mo te Pire c takoto nei. E penei ana taku kupu, ahakoa. ko te Pire a Henare Kaihau ko tenei Pire, ko tetahi atu Pire ranei, mehemea c whakahokia ana kite iwi kia mahia i runga ite aronga ote Tiriti o Waitangi hei tino whakatutuki i ona tikanga ka tautoko au i tena, ahakoa ko te Pire a Henare Kaihau ko tetahi atu Pire ranei. Engari ki taku titiro he pai ake ta Henare Kaihau Pire ita te Kawanatanga Pire. Engari, kia mohio hoki; ko aku korero o mua ra mo te Pire a Henare Kaihau c pera ana ano te aronga me aku kupu i korero ai mo nga menemana whakatikatika o tenei Pire i tukua mai nei c nga Maori kite Kawanatanga—ara, ko te Pire a Henare Kaihau, kotahi tonu te iwi nana tena whakaaro ; kaore etahi atu iwi i kite i uru ranei kite mahinga me te whiriwhiringa o tena Pire. 168. Wi Pere : E rua nga Pire c takoto nei ite aroaro ote Whare. Ko te Pire ate Kawanatanga ko te Pire a Henare Kaihau. Xi te paahitia te Pire a Henare Kaihau i tenei huihuinga ote Paremete, ka pehea koe, a ka pehea te iwi katoa ? Te Heuheu: Xi te paahitia etc Whare te Pire a Henare Kaihau heoi taku kupu kua paahitia. He rereke rawa no to patai i penei ai taku whakahoki. E patai ana koe, "Xi te paahitia te Pire a Henare Kaihau ka pehea koe ? " Ka ki atu au kua paahitia. 169. Wi Pere : I vi ai au i te patai kia mohio ai au ki o whakaaro mo taua mea, notemea iki atu koe kite Komiti i a koe c korero ana i tahi ra ake nei ko koe anake te tangata mohio ki nga mea katoa ote motu katoa nei. Na, kaore au c pai me kohatu me rakau ranei to whakahoki mai i taku patai? Te Heuheu : Mehemea i vi mai koe ki au kei te whakahe kei te tautoko ranei au i te Pire. a Henare Kaihau kua mohio au ki tetahi whakahoki maku. 170. Wi Pere : Koia ra tena te tikanga o taku patai ? Te Heuheu: A katahi ra ahau ka marama kite tikanga oto patai. E penei ana taku, kite paahitia te Pire a Henare Kaihau hei ture pai ake tena i te Pire a te Kawanatanga c takoko nei: engari tena ano etahi wahi ote Pire a Henare Kaihau c hiahia ana ahau kite whakatikatika mehemea ra c taea ana te tuku atu o taua Pire kite aroaro o etahi atu iwi haunga te iwi nana i mahi te Pire. E mea ana ahau i naianei kite whakahoki atu i tetahi kupu au i roto ito patai o mua atu i tenei. Iki koe i haere mai au ki tenei Komiti korero ai ko au tetahi tangata mohio atu ki nga mea katoa. Kaore rawa ahau ite mohio kite tikanga o tena kupu au. Kaore rawa i pena taku kupu kite Komiti. 171. Wi Pere : Kaore koia i penei na to korero : he kuare katoa nga tangata c tautoko nei i te Pire, ako nga tangata c whakahe ana kite Pire nga tangata mohio ? A kaore koia i penei tetahi kupu au, kaore kau he whenua o nga tangata c tautoko ana i te Pire ? Na, c mea ana ahau kia whakaaturia mai c koe ko wai ma nga tangata kore whenua o roto i te hunga c tautoko ana i te Pire, i pera hoki to korero. Tena, ko wai ma ratou ? Te Heuheu: Ka tono atu au kite Tiamana kia waongia au i nga mahi a Tuta Nihoniho, kaore ia c tika kia taunu mai ki au ite aroaro ote Komiti nei. Ite mea kua uru mai ia ki konei me pai tana mahi, kaua c whakararuraru iau c korero ana i aku korero kite Komiti. Te Tiamana : Kaua rawa tetahi Maori i roto ite ruma nei c pokanoa kite whakararuraru ite kai-whakahoki patai. E kore rawa c whakaaetia eau tera tv mahi. 172. Wi Pere : Kaati, c kore au eui i tena patai. E mohio ana koe kite Iwi oTe Arawa ? Te Heuheu: Ac. 173. Wi Pere : Kaore ranei o ratou whenua c taka ki raro i nga tikanga o tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu: E mohio ana ahau ko etahi o ratou whenua kei raro ite mana o tetahi Ture, ko te Ture Ngawha pea ia nei te ingoa o taua Ture, me taku mohio hoki tenei ano etahi atu whenua o ratou kei waho ite mana o taua Ture. E penei ana, c ai ki taku i mohio ai, ko nga whenua kua taka ki raro i te mana o te Ture Ngawha, c hereherea nei c taua Ture, c kore ena c taea te kukume ki raro i te mana me nga tikanga o tenei Pire ; engari, ko o ratou whenua kei waho atu i te rohe o te Ture Ngawha ka taea ena te tuku atu ki raro i tenei Pire. 174. Wi Pere : Mo tou iwi ake c noho nei i Taupo tenei patai. He tika ranei c kore tenei Pire c pa ki etahi o ratou ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; kei te mohio ra ahau kei raro etahi o nga whenua o taku iwi i Taupo i te Ture Ngawha, me etahi whenua ke atu i te takiwa o Taupo kei raro i te Ture Taone Maori, na reira c kore aua whenua c taka ki raro i tenei Pire. Kei te mohio hoki au he nui rawa nga whenua o nga iwi o reira kei waho ite rohe o nga Ture c rua nei, a tera c taka ki raro i tenei Pire. Ka taka ki raro i tenei Pire te nuinga o o ratou whenua. 175. Wi Pere : I haina ratou i te pitihana c whakahe nei i te Pire? Te Heuheu : Ac ; ko taua whakahe a ratou c whakahe ana i te Pire nei mo o ratou whenua c taka ana ki waho o te Ture Ngawha. 176. Wi Pere : E whia nga whenua o nga iwi o Rotorua kihai i taka ki raro i te Ture Ngawha, ma hoki c 660,000 nga eka i uru ki roto i te rohe o te takiwa o te Ture Ngawha ? Te Heuheu: Ko nga whenua kei Horohoro, kei Patetere, ako nga whenua o Ngatirangitihi, o Ngatipikiao, o Ngatitura, me Ngatiahuru. 177. Wi Pere : Kei waho koia nga whenua i Horohoro me era atu whenua i te rohe o te Ture Ngawha ? Te Heuheu : Xi taku mohio ra kei waho. . . 178. Wi Pere : Na wai i hoatu he whenua mo Ngatirangitihi ki Te Matata, c korero nei koe ? Te Heuheu: Na te Kawanatanga etahi i hoatu; ko etahi no ratou ano, ko o ratou whenua i Tarawera, i uta oTe Awa-a-te-Atua me Te Matata. Ko nga whenua i hoatu mo ratou etc Kawana-

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tanga he piihi ririki nei, i hoatu ki taku rongo hei utu mo te ratou urunga kite kupapa hei hoia ma te Kuini, ara, mo to ratou toa. 179. Wi Pere : Te take i vi ai au i tena patai kei te mohio au kaore kau he whenua o ena tangata iTe Matata. Ka pehea to kupu, i naianei, mo te pitihana a ena tangata c noho mai nei i te takutai moana o reira, c tautoko nei ratou i te Pire ? Te Heuheu : Kaore kau aku kupu whakapai, whakakino, pehea ranei mo tena. Koia tena ta ratou i kite ai hei mahi ma ratou. Mo nga tangata c whakahe ana kite Pire taku korero. E whai mana noa atu ana ratou kite whakahe ite Pire, pena hoki me te hunga tautoko c whai mana nei kite tautoko i te-Pire, c rite tahi ana. 180. Wi Pere : He patai poto nei taku ki a koe mo nga tangata i tuku pitihana mai nei i te takutai moana o reira, he mea atu c pehea ana to whakaaro mo taua pitihana ? Te Heuheu : Kaore kau aku whakaaro mo tena. Ite mea i kitea c ratou koi na he mahi ma ratou, pai noa atu, kei a ratou te whakaaro. 181. Wi Pere : I tino ki koe i tahi ra ake nei ahakoa nekehia tenei Pire mo tetahi atu tau mahi ai ka mau tonu to whakahe? Te Heuheu : Kei te mohio au ki taku kupu mo tau c mea na. I penei taku kupu :ki te nekehia tenei Pire mo tera tau mo tetahi atu tau ranei mahi ai me te mau tonu o tenei ahua ona, ki taku whakaaro tera c kitea a taua wa kaore c rereke te whakaaro o te hunga whakahe engari ka mau tonu ta ratou whakahe ; engari mehemea ka nekehia te Pire kia whakatikatikaia nga wahi c whakahengia nei katahi pea ka kore nga whakahe, otira kowai c mohio ki tena. Tena pea kitea rawa ake kua rereke rawa atu kua puta he Pire ke. 182. Wi Pere : Ma au korero ano i korero ai c hopu to kupu i korero ai. Iki koe, "E ki nei au, kaore kau he take c nekehia ai te whiriwhiringa o tenei Pire mo tetahi atu wa. Ko ta matou c hiahia ana me.patu, me whakakore atu." I penei hoki tetahi o kupu : ahakoa haria kite aroaro o te iwi katoa c kore ano ratou c whakaae kite Pire nei? Te Heuheu : I penei taku kupu—kei te tino mohio au ki taku i korero ai: ma ke, i whakaatu atu ahau i nga take i whakahe ai te iwi kite Pire. I tatau atu ahau ite maha o nga tekiona ote Pire c takoto nei i to tatou aroaro, a i tatau atu hoki ahau i te maha o nga tekiona o te Pire i tae kite iwi, me taku korero atu kaore i riterite nga Pire, he Pire ke tetahi he Pire ke tetahi, ka mutu tera ka whakaatu atu haere taku korero kite Komiti i nga pitihana kei te aroaro ote Komiti c takoto ana he mea tuku mai c etahi iwi maha hei tautoko i te Pire, a he maha hoki nga pitihana a he maha hoki nga tangata c whakahe ana i te Pire, a i penei taku kupu mo te hunga c whakahe ana kite Pire, ki taku mohio ahakoa nekehia te Pire mo tetahi atu tau mahi ai ka mau tonu ta ratou whakahe kite mau tonu hoki tenei ahua o te Pire. E ki ana ahau kite homai tenei Pire a tera huihuinga ote Paremete, a kite penei ano tona ahua me ia c takoto nei, ka whakahengia ano. 183. Wi Pere : E ki ana koe i haria haeretia ki nga wahi o te motu nei te Pire a te Pirimia i te marama o Maehe kua huri ake nei, a i whakaaria kite hui i Papawai, a i tahuri te hunga c kino ana kite Pire kite whakahe ite Pire i reira, ara, kite Pire tuatahi ate Pirimia ? Te Heuheu : I te hui i Waipatu —kaore au i tae ki tera hui—kaore toku iwi i whakaae kite Pire. I ki ratou, "Kaore matou c whakaae; he Pire ano ta matou; ko a matou whakahe, me waiho mo tetahi atu taima whakatakoto atu ai." Na, ite hui a Mahuta, itu nei ki Wahi, i whakahe ano etahi tangata. Ai te hui ki Kereitaone, ki Papawai, i whakahe ano etahi tangata. 184. Wi Pere : He aha te take i whakahe ai aua hui ? Te Heuheu : Notemea kaore ratou i pai ki taua Pire ; te take he kino no te Pire. 185. Wi Pere :A he aha te take i kore ai ratou c tahuri kite whakatikatika i nga wahi kino mehemea ra i hiahia ratou kia whakatikatikaina ? Te Heuheu : I tau ki tenei, me waiho kia tv te hui ki Papawai hei reira whiriwhiria ai te Pire. 186. Wi Pere : Kei te patai atu ra ahau mo te hui ki Papawai'? Te Heuheu : Kua takoto ke i tena te patai. Kaore i pena taku whakarongo atu ki to patai i te tuatahi. 187. Wi Pere : E penei ana te patai: He aha te take i kore ai nga tangata c whakahe nei i te Pire c tahuri kite whakatikatika ite Pire ite tuunga ote hui ki Papawai ? Te Heuheu : Ko te take tenei: He mohio no ratou ko te whakarapopototanga kau tera ote Pire c takoto ra i o ratou aroaro ; tena ano te Pire, na reira kaore ratou i tahuri kite whakatikatika ite mea ehara tera ite Pire. I hiahia ratou kite whakatikatika ite Pire, engari i mea me waiho kia kite ratou i te tino Pire. 188. Wi Pere : Ko wai ma i pena i taua hui ? Te Heuheu : Ko au tetahi. Iki tonu au, " Ehara tena ite Pire." 189. Wi Pere : Na tou waha tonu tena kupu i hamumu, na te waha ranei o tetahi atu tangata i hamumu ? Te Heuheu : He aha te huanga o tena patai ? Kua kitea nei hoki he tika tonu, ehara tera ite tino Pire. 190. Wi Pere : E mea ana ahau kia korerotia mai c koe ko wai te tangata i tv ake i te aroaro o te hui, a na tona waha tonu i korero atu, " Kaua tatou c hanga i etahi menemana whakatikatika i tenei Pire, notemea ehara rawa tenei ite Pire c takoto nei ito tatou aroaro " ? Te take i patai ai ahau i tena notemea iki koe tena ano tetahi atu Pire ate Kawanatanga kihai i takoto kite aroaro o te iwi i taua hui ? Te Heuheu :He maha nga tangata, ko au tonu tetahi, itv ake i taua hui kite korero ehara tera ite tino Pire, a kaore kau he huanga c tahuri ai kite whakatikatika ite mea ehara tera ite tino Pire. 191. Wi Pere: A tae noa kite mutunga ote rua o nga wiki itu ai te hui koi na tonu to korero ? Te Heuheu : Koia tena taku i korero ai i reira.

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192. Wi Pere : I te wiki tuatahi i tv ai te hui i pena ano to korero ? Te Heuheu : I pau katoa te wiki tuatahi i aWi Pere, i a Tamahau, me Henare Tomoana c tohutohu ana ki a matou i nga painga me nga ataahuatanga o te Pire, heoi ta matou i reira he whakarongo. Katahi matou ka whakarongo, ka whakarongo, ka whakarongo, a pau noa te wiki tuatahi, a pau noa te wiki tuarua, a pau noa hoki te wiki tuatoru i a ratou c whakaatuatu mai ana mo te Pire, kore rawa i tuwhera i a ratou he taima hei korerotanga ma matou, a naku i ata tono marire ki te tiamana kia homai he taima ki au kia korero ai hoki ahau i whiwhi ai au i tetahi taima hei korerotanga maku i aku kupu mo te Pire. I taku tuunga ake kite korero i whakahe ahau kite Pire penei ano me au c whakahe nei i naianei. 193. Wi Pere : E ono nga wiki etu ana te hui. E hia oku tuunga ake kite aroaro ote hui c ki nei koe i pau katoa i au te taima a kaore rawa he taima i hoatu ki a koe hei korerotanga mau? Te Tiamana : Xi taku titiro kaore rawa he tikanga o tena patai mo te Pire c korerotia nei. Ina ke te patai c whai nei koe kia utua, I whakahe ranei te kai-whakahoki patai kite Pire ? Kua ki atu ia ac, i whakahe ia. Ehara ite mea ko te wiki tuatahi, tuarua, tuatoru ranei ote hui te mea c whaia nei, he moumou noa iho i te taima o te Komiti ena tv patai. 194. Wi Pere : Ko taku c whai ana kia kitea ai kei te whakarereketia etc kai-whakahoki patai te aronga o te mahi i a ia c ki nei kaore ratou i uru kite hanga menemana whakatikatika i te Pire notemea c mohio ana ratou ko te Pire c whiriwhiria ra c te hui ehara i te tino Pire, ko te whakarapopototanga kau ote Pire, a kei wahi ke te Pire c ngaro ana. No muri ke i tera, ara, no tona haerenga atu i reira ka rongo ia ki nga kai-whakamaori o te Whare nei kei te whakamaoritia te tino Pire katahi ia ka hoki ano ki reira ka korero mai ki a matou tera ano te tino Pire. Kaore au c pai kia korero te kai-whakahoki patai i nga korero he—c ki nei ia koi rate take i whakahe ai ratou ki te Pire, he mohio no ratou ehara tera ite tino Pire. Ko Paratene te mea itu ake i korero koi ra tonu te Pire, a ko te Pire kei muri c haere mai ana he whakaroanga kautanga tera no. te Pire. Te Tiamana: Ko tenei koia te Pire i korerotia etc hui ki Papawai ? Wi Pere : Koi nei ano te Pire, engari ehara i tena i a koe na. Te Tiamana : Ko te Pire koia c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Komiti ? Wi Pere : Kaore ; kua whakarereketia nga kupu c tenei Pire kaore i te rite kite Pire i tae nei ki Papawai. Te Taimana : Koi na rate korero a te kai-whakahoki patai. Wi Pere : E tika ana; ma ke taku : c mea ana ahau kia mohio te Komiti kei te he tana korero i a ia c ki nei te take i kore ai ia c uru kite whakahaere i nga menemana i takoto nei kite aroaro o te hui ki Papawai he mohio nona tena ano te tino Pire, ko te tikanga ia kaore ia i mohio, a kia pau rawa nga wiki c toru c wha ranei i muri iho katahi ano ia ka mohio. Kia toru kia wha pea nga wiki c whakahe ana ratou i te Pire ka haere mai ia ki Poneke nei, no reira tonu katahi ano ia ka mohio tena ano te tino Pire, katahi ia ka hoki ki Papawai ka korero ko te Pire c whiriwhiria ra c te hui ehara i te tino Pire, tena ano te tino Pire; katahi a Paratene ka tv ake ka mea, " Kaore he tikanga o tena. Ko te roanga kau tena o taua Pire kotahi." Te Heuheu: E mea ana ano ahau kite whakahe ite korero aWi Pere, otira hei aha, ite mea ki taku titiro he tino tikanga kore rawa aua korero a he moumou taima noa iho. 195. Wi Pere : Xi taku me korero te tangata ite korero pono. Koi ra taku c hiahia ana. Xi au nei ka toru nga wiki o te hui ka pau katahi ano iaka mohio tera ano tetahi Pire, a kua whakahe noa atu nga iwi o te Tai Hauauru kite Pire i mua noa atu i tera ? Te Heuheu : Kua whakahe noa atu ra nga iwi ote Tai Hauauru kite Pire. Kei te upoko na hoki o te Pire c whakaatu ana he tika tonu taku i korero ai, ara, he whakarapopototanga kau tera no te Pire. I a koutou c tohe ana kia tahuri matou kite whakatikatika ite Pire ka ki atu matou, " Kaore matou c mahi; ite mea ehara tena ite tino Pire." No taku taenga mai ki konei ka tahuri au kite kimi kia mohio ai au kite tino tikanga, a kitea ana c au, he tika taku, tera ano tetahi Pire. Katahi au ka korero atu kite iwi i Papawai tera ano te tino Pire kei muri, katahi ka tautohe mai ki au te hunga tautoko i te Pire, me ta ratou ki mai ano ki au kite kitea kaore kau he Pire ke me pehea ta ratou mahi. Te tikanga o tena kupu a ratou, mehemea nei kua mahia eau tetahi mahi kino rawa, a he tika ahau kia whiua kite whareherehere, kia kohurutia atu ranei, mo taku korerotanga tena ano tetahi Pire. Ko Wi Pere raua ko Tomoana nga mea i korero pera. 196. Wi Pere : Kaore ; i ki ahau tena ano pea nga whakaroanga atu me nga whakamaramatanga o nga tekiona o te whakarapopototanga o te Pire ma te Kawanatanga c whakauru a muri atu ? Te Heuheu : I tata tonu a Wi Pere te kite mai he kai-kohuru au, a ko te ahua o ana korero moku mehemea tonu nei i patua c au tetahi tangata kia mate rawa. Te Tiamana : Xi taku whakaaro kaore he huanga mo te Pire c puta i ena korero atu korero mai a tetahi ki tetahi o korua. He whakahoki i nga patai te take i tae mai ai te kai-whakahoki patai ki konei. E taea ai nga mea c whaia nei eWi Pere me patai c ia, kaua c whai-korerotia mai c ia. 197. Wi Pere : E pai ana, ka vi au i tetahi patai. Kei te tautoko ranei koe i te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Heuheu : Ac, kei te pera ahau ; me Wi Pere hoki. Te Tiamana : Heoi ta matou c hiahia ana ko nga utu mai mo te patai, ac kaore ranei. 198. Wi Pere : Kaati, c mea ana koe, kaati tonu me waiho ko te Tiriti o Waitangi hei whakahaere mo te iwi Maori: koia tena to hiahia? Te Heuheu : Ac. 199. Wi Pere : A c tautoko ana koe i nga wahi katoa o taua tiriti; ko a tatou whenua katoa me hoko kite Kuini ? Te Maka : Kaore c pena ana nga kupu ote Tiriti o Waitangi. 200. Wi Pere : E pai ana koe kia patua atu taua tikanga i roto i te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Heuheu: Ac.

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201. Wi Pere : E hiahia ana koe kia patua atu taua wahi o te Tiriti ? Ttf Heuheu : Ac.

Weneeei, 5 o Oketopa, 1898. Te Heuheu : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 202. Henare Kaihau : Ko koe te tangata i tukuna mai ki konei o nga iwi c noho ana i waenganui i nga takiwa pooti o te Tai Hauauru me te Tai Rawhiti, hei reo mo ratou ki konei ? Te Heuheu : Ac. I mua noa atu ote perehitanga me te tuhanga o tenei Pire ka tae mai ki au nga pukapuka a Te Arawa, a Ngatimaniapoto, a Ngatiraukawa, a Whanganui, me etahi hapu o te Tai Rawhiti, he ki mai ki au me noho tonu au i Poneke nei kite heteri i te Pire, ara, kite whakahe i te Pire. 203. Henare Kaihau : Ko koe tetahi o nga tangata i tukuna mai c te iwa c te tekau mano ranei tangata hei whakahaere i nga pitihana kua tukuna mai nei c ratou ki konei hei whakahe i te Pire? Te Heuheu : Ac; i tukuna mai au ki konei hei reo ki konei mo te tekau mano tangata c whakahe nei kite Pire, a ko enei c noho nei i tua i au, i te ruma nei, aku hoa. 204. Henare Kaihau : I rongo au ki a koe, i te ra tuatahi i korero ai koe, i haere te Pirimia me Timi Kara kite hari haere i te Pire ki etahi wahi o te motu nei, a i kite raua i nga Maori ki reira a i hurihuri tahi ratou mo te Pire; i pera koia koe ? Te Heuheu : I pena ahau. I ki ahau c wha nga hui nunui itu ki etahi wahi ote motu nei i tae ai raua kite whakanui haere ki nga Maori i nga painga c puta ki a ratou ma paahitia te Pire. I tv ki Te Waipatu te hui tuatahi, i tv ki Wahi, ara, ki Huntly, te hui tuarua ; a no te matenga o Meiha Keepa ka huihui nga iwi katoa o etahi wahi o te motu, a i tae a Timi Kara kite whakatakoto ite Pire nei kite aroaro o nga iwi i huihui ki reira ki nga tangihanga mo Meiha Keepa. I tv ki Papawai te tuawha o nga hui. Ka mutu te hui ki Papawai he tokonui nga tangata o taua hui i haere mai ki Poneke nei, a tv ana etahi hui mo te Pire ki konei. 205. Henare Kaihau : I pehea nga iwi Maori i tae ki aua hui mo te Pire ? I pehea to ratou whakaaro mo tePire Poari nei? i whakaae i whakahe ranei kite Pire nei? Te Heuheu : Te whakahoki nui tonu a nga Maori i tae ki aua hui mo nga korero tautoko, whakamarama hoki, a te Pirimia raua ko Timi Kara i te Pire, i penei c kore ratou c whakaae kite Pire. No te hui rawa itu nei ki Papawai katahi ano nga tangata ka pakaru, ka whakahe tetahi taha, ka tautoko tetahi taha, engari i kite hunga tautoko me whakatikatika te Pire kia rite ki ta ratou i hiahia ai katahi ratou ka tautoko. 206. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana koe i te tuunga o te hui ki Papawai i wehe etahi tangata i a ratou, ara, i pakaru, i ki ka whakaae ratou kite. Pire mehemea ka whakatikatikaina te Pire kia rite ki ta ratou i hiahia ai: i rite ranei nga whakatikatika i oti te whawhao ki roto kite Pire ki ta ratou i hiahia ai ? Te Heuheu : Kaore. I whakatakotoria c ratou etahi rarangi a whakataua ana a tuhia a rarangitia ana c ratou a ratou menemana whakatikatika i mea ai ratou hei whakauru kite Pire tuatahi a te Pirimia, a i haere mai ratou ki konei, ki Poneke nei, a hoatu ana c ratou kite Pirimia kia whakaurua c ia kite Pire. I hoatu c ratou aua rarangi whakatikatika a ratou i mua atu ote putanga o te whakamaoritanga o te Pire, akuanei no te whakamaoritanga no te tuhanga o te Pire kite ana ratou kaore rawa tetahi o nga menemana whakatikatika i mahia ra c ratou i whakaurua ki te Pire. Na, ko nga tangata nana nei aua menemana whakatikatika i mahi note Tai Rawhiti katoa, a kaore rawa tetahi o nga tangata i whiriwhiria c te Tai Hauauru hei mangai mo ratou, tetahi ranei o Ngapuhi me etahi atu iwi ranei, i uru kite mahi i aua menemana whakatikatika : kotahi tonu to Whanganui i uru, ko te tamahine a Meiha Keepa. Ko nga tangata i ngana kite whakatikatika ite Pire no nga hapu ake o Wairarapa, o Haaki Pei, o Turanganui, o Kihipane me Ngatiporou; engari he maha nga hapu o te Tai Rawhiti kaore i whakaae ki nga whakatikatikanga i te Pire c mahia ra. Ko te hapu o Niniwa, ko nga whanaunga o Herepete, me etahi atu hapu, ko te hapu o Mohi, o Te Teira Tiakitai, tetahi o nga tino rangatira o Heretaunga, me etahi atu hapu maha maha noa iho o Te Wairoa me Nuhaka, i tino whakahe katoa ite Pire. Ko te utu poto maku me penei: ko te tino nuinga o nga tangata, ara, te hunga maha maha rawa atu i te hunga i whakaae ki nga menemana whakatikatika, i whakahe katoa i te Pire me ona wahi katoa. 207. Henare Kaihau : Ka taea c koe te korero mai nga hapu o te Tai Rawhiti i whakahe ki tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu : Ko te ingoa nui o nga iwi katoa o te Tai Rawhiti ko Ngatikahungunu, c uru ana ki tenei ingoa a Ngatiporou me etahi atu iwi, timata i Wairarapa puta noa te Tai Rawhiti. Te utu poto mo to patai me penei, c noho pakaru ana aua iwi puta noa i taua takiwa, c tino tautoko ana tetahi taha ite Pire c whakahe ana tetahi taha ite Pire. Koi nei te take i pera ai taku whakahoki mo te patai i via mai ra ki au i tahi ra ake nei, ara, ka pehea te ahua mehemea ka whakamanaia tenei Pire hei ture mo te takiwa kite Tai Rawhiti anake. I ki ra ahau c kore rawa pea c taea te whakahaere o taua ture ki reira, notemea kei te noho wehe nga tangata o reira—kei te hiahia etahi kite Pire kaore etahi ite hiahia. Hei whakatika mo aku korero ko nga pitihana maha c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Whare c whakahe nei i tenei Pire. 208. Henare Kaihau : Kaati ra, me vi atu c au ki a koe tenei patai poto : Kua rongo ranei koe tera ano tetahi hapu tetahi wahanga tangata ranei kia kotahi o te takiwa pooti o te Tai Hauauru c tautoko ana i tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu : Kore kia kotahi. 209. Henare Kaihau : Xi tau i rongo ai, kei te tautoko katoa nga iwi o te takiwa pooti o te Tai Hauauru i nga whakahe mo te Pire ? Kei te tino whakahe ratou kaore ranei ? Te Heuheu : Kua ki atu na hoki au kei te whakahe kite Pire nga iwi katoa o te takiwa pooti o te Tai Hauauru me nga iwi katoa o te takiwa pooti ote Tai Whakararo. Kei te kaha atu ta ratou whakahe kite Pire, me tetahi wahanga hoki o te Tai Rawhiti kei te whakahe i te Pire.

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210. Henare Kaihau : E mohio ana koe ki nga korero a nga tangata o te takiwa pooti o te Tai Hauauru mo tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu: Ac; kua pena ano na hoki au. Na te mea na hoki kua rongo ahau i a ratou korero iki ai ahau kei te whakahe ratou kite Pire. Tetahi take i mohio ai ahau, ko ahau te tiamana o te komiti o nga iwi c whakahe ana ki tenei Pire, a kua tae mai ki au nga pukapuka a nga tino tangata o reira. Kua whakatakotoria aua pukapuka ki toku aroaro i runga i taku tuunga hei tiamana mo te komiti, na reira c tino mohio ana ahau ki o ratou whakaaro mo tenei mea. 211. Hon. Timi Kara: Kaore ranei he tangata c tae mai kite aroaro ote Komiti hei kaikorero mo te Tai Tokerau ? Te Heuheu : Ac, tenei ano te kai-korero mo te Tai Tokerau. E korero ana au i aku mea i mohio ai i rongo ai i kite ai. Kei konei a Herepete Rapihana, i haere mai i taua takiwa. 212. Henare Kaihau : Tena, pehea tau ake whakaaro mo tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu : E tika ana tena patai kia via mai ki au. lav c korero ana i konei i mua ra c korero ana ahau i runga i taku tuunga hei mangai mo te iwi nana ahau i tuku mai ki konei. I naianei, c mea ana koe me korero atu ahau i aku ake whakaaro mo te Pire. Ko toku ake whakaaro kei te whakahe ki nga tikanga katoa o tenei Pire. Kua oti iau te whakamarama kite Komiti i nga wahi ote Pire c whakahengia ana c nga iwi etu nei au hei mangai mo ratou. Na, ko au etu nei kei te whakatika ki a ratou take katoa i kore ai ratou c whakaae kite Pire, a maku c korero atu etahi atu o aku ake take i whakahe ai kite Pire. Te Tiamana : Xi taku titiro, i nga ra c rua i korero tuatahi ai te kai-whakahoki patai, i pau katoa iaia te korero mai ona ake whakaaro mo te Pire. Mehemea he tika taku eki nei, kaati, ki taku mahara, kaore kau he huanga kia korerotia mai ano c ia aua korero. Henare Kaihau : Xi taku whakaaro kaore i puta i te kai-whakahoki patai ana ake whakaaro mo te Pire, na reira ahau i mea ai kite vi ki aia i tenei patai. Xi taku mahara, kite whakaae te Tiamana kia haere taku patai, akuanei ka taea c au te whakaatu he take tika te take i via ai te patai. Ma tenei patai hoki c taea ai te whai o etahi atu mea. Te Tiamana : I mahara au i ki koe c hiahia ana koe kia korero mai te kai-wakahoki patai i ana ake whakaaro mo te Pire, a ki taku mahara i pau i a ia ena te korero mai i nga ra tuatahi c rua, a i a ia hoki c whakahoki ana i nga patai a Wi Pere i nanahi katahi ka mene rawa mai. 213. Henare Kaihau: Xi taku mahara tena te Tiamana c kite, kite ata whakarongo ia ki nga patai meake nei ka patairia c au, tera ia c whakaae kite tika o tenei patai aku. Xi te ata whakarongo te Komiti ki tenei patai aku tena ratou c whakatika ki taku patai i patai ake nei. Mehemea kite whakaae te Pirimia kite whakatikatika i tenei Pire, kite whakaae ranei ia kia patua rawa atu te Pire kia kore atu, ko te hea o enei mea c rua tau c pai ai ? Ko te hea tau c pai ai, kia whakatikatikaina tenei Pire kia patua rawa atu ranei, i te mea c kite ana koe i nga kino tera cpa kite iwi i tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu: Ko tau eui na, c rua rawa ena patai, na reira kia rua hoki aku whakahoki. Xi te kite Pirimia, "Me tahuri tatou kite whakatikatika i tenei Pire," taku kupu mo tena, " Ac," engari kaore au c pai kia tahuri tatou kite whakatikatika ite Pire i tenei ra. Engari me karanga he hui a me whakatakoto atu tenei Pire kite aroaro o te tekau mano tangata c whakahe nei ki tenei Pire. Koi na te utu mo tena. Engari ki taku mahara ka maha aku korerotanga i tena. Na, kite kitea cte Komiti me tino whakakore atu te Pire, ai te mea kei te noho huihui te Paremete, ki taku me tere tonu te mahi o tetahi tikanga hei whakakapi mo te Pire hei whakamutu rawa atu i nga mahi hoko whenua, a i roto i nga ra whakamutunga o tenei tuunga o te Paremete me whiriwhiri c ia iwi tetahi tangata hei mangai mona, ame tahuri aua tangata kite hanga i tetahi Pire hei whakakapi mo tenei Pire c takoto nei ite aroaro ote Komiti ka tuku atu ai kite Kawanatanga. Engari kite tau i taua hui, ara, ite hunga i whakaturia cia iwi Maori ote koroni hei mangai mo ratou, ko te Pire a Henare Kaihau apiti atu ki a ratou nei menemana whakatikatika i kite ai mo taua Pire, te Pire c hapainga c whakaaetia c ratou —kite pera ratou, heoi, ka ki atu au ki a koutou, ko tera te Pire hei tuku atu kite Paremete kia paahitia. 214. Henare Kaihau: I penei taku mohio atu ki o whakahoki patai ite ra tuatahi i korero ai koe, i a koe c utu ana i nga patai a Kapene Rahera, ara, c whakahe ana koe kite ahua ote Poari notemea c meatia ana me uru he mema Pakeha kite Poari: c mea ana koia koe kaua rawa atu nga Pakeha c uru hei mema mo te Poari ? Te Heuheu: Ac ; i pena taku korero. Iki ahau ki taku whakaaro me Maori nga mema ote Poari—ma nga Maori c whakatu nga mema ote Poari. Otira, kite tau ite Runanga me uru he mema Pakeha mo te Poari, kaore au c whakahe ki tena. Ka penei taku kupu, "I te mea kua tau i a koutou me pena, kaati me pena." 215. Henare Kaihau : E penei ana koia tau, me tuku atu he mana ki aua Maori kia whai mana ai ratou kite whakawa whenua, kite riihi whenua, me era atu mahi katoa c tika ana kia mahia ? Te Heuheu : Ac; ma te Runanga c whakatu nga tangata c whakamana kite whakawa i nga whenua, kite roherohe i nga whenua, a kite whakahaere i era atu mahi; me whaimana te Runanga kite whakatu tangata hei whakahaere i nga mahi cpa ana ki nga riihi whenua, me era atu mea pera ;me whaimana te Runanga kite whakatau reiti, me era atu mea pera, ki runga ki nga tangata no ratou nga whenua c whakahaerea ana : ma taua Runanga enei mahi katoa. 216. Te Tiamana: He aha te take i mohio ai koe i tenei ra kite whakaputa i enei whakaaro au mo nga huarahi whakahaere i nga whenua me nga mea Maori a i kore ai koe c mohio i tahi ra ake nei ? Ite pataitanga a Kapene Rahera ki a koe mo runga i enei mea kaore koe i mohio me pehea he tikanga whakahaere mo nga whenua me nga mea epa ana ki nga Maori: He aha te take i penei ai koe? Te Heuheu: Kaore au i mohio he rite tahi te tikanga o nga patai a Kapene Rahera kite tikanga o nga patai c patairia mai nei ki au i naianei; ara, ehara era ite patai c tika ana kia penei

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nga utu mo aua patai me aku c whakahoki atu nei. Ko nga mema reo Pakeha o te Komiti nei pea nga mea c mohio ana kite tikanga o aua patai (a Kapene Rahera), ko au kaore ite mohio. 217. Te Tiamana : I to whakahokinga i nga patai a Te Maka i nanahi i ki koe kaore c taea c koe te whakaatu atu nga huarahi me nga tikanga ote Pire tera c mahia c nga Maori. Ko te utu ki te patai aTe Maka i nanahi i penei, iki koe, "Ko ta matou c tono atu ana kite Komiti i naianei c penei ana kaua c whakahaerea tenei Pire i tenei tuunga o te Paremete, kia whai taima ai matou ki te tino whiriwhiri i nga wahi katoa o tenei mea, kia tau ai i a matou tetahi tino tikanga tuturu, a hei a muri ake nei ma matou c tono atu kia riro ko tera hei whakakapi mo te Pire c takoto nei. Kia tino oti i a matou katoa, i te iwi Maori, te hanga tetahi tikanga, kia oti rawa ona wahi katoa, hei reira ka tono atu matou kia whakaaetia ta matou Pire i hanga ai kia haria mai kite aroaro o tenei Komiti hei riiwhi mo tenei Pire c takoto nei. Mo te kupu eki nei me korero atu c matou ta matou c hiahia ana kia hoatu hei riiwhi mo te Pire nei, c kore matou c kaha kite pena i naianei." A tetahi o korero, " E kore c taea c matou i te taima poto nei te hanga i tetahi Pire ma matou, oti rawa ona wahi katoa, hei whakakapi ite Pire c takoto nei. Kei te 15 o nga ra o Maehe c haere ake nei ka tv te Kotahitanga kite wahi i hainatia ai te Tiriti o Waitangi, a c hiahia matou kia mahia ki reira tetahi Pire. E hiahia ana matou kia tae te Pirimia me Timi Kara ki reira, ma raua c tohutohu mai etahi mea kia tino whiriwhiria ai tenei mea ki reira." Na, koia tenei taku c mea ana kia whakamaramatia mai: Mehemea he tika kaore koe i kaha kite whakahoki ite patai pena ano te ahua a Te Maka i nanahi, me pehea c taea ai c koe te utu o taua tv patai ano i tenei ra? Te Heuheu : Xi taku titiro kaore enei korero aku i te taupatupatu i aku korero o mua atu. E rite ana te tikanga o aua kupu aku kite tikanga o enei kupu aku. Xi taku mahara i penei ke te tikanga o aku kupu i korero ai: ara, kite tau te kupu ite iwi me patu rawa atu tenei Pire, me whakatikatika ranei, koia tera. Tetahi take i tohitu atu ai aku whakahoki i enei patai he tohitu hoki no te patai mai a Henare Kaihau ki aau kia whakina atu aku ake whakaaro mo te Pire. Na reira au i marama ai kite whakahoki ite patai. 218. Te Tiamana : I patairia koe kite patai pena tonu te ahua c Kapene Rahera, a kihai koe i ahei kite whakahoki atu ? Te Heuheu : Tena me panui mai ki au te patai a Te Maka, c whakahengia nei taku utu mo taua patai c te Tiamana, kia kite ai au i te wahi i he. 219. Te Tiamana : Kaore au ite whakahe ito utu mo taua patai. E penei ke ana taku :i ki koe i nanahi c kore koe c kaha kite korero mai ka pehea ranei ka pehea ranei te ahua ote Pire c hanga c nga Maori hei riiwhi mo tenei Pire c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Komiti, a i naianei i te patainga atu a Henare Kaihau kia korero atu koe i te ahua o ta nga Maori Pire c hanga ai, c ai ki tau ake mohio, korero tonu ake koe, kaore i numinumi o korero ? Te Heuheu : He marama ra no te whakatakoto mai a Henare Kaihau i ana patai na reira ka marama hoki iau te whakahoki atu; engari me ki atu au kua korerotia katoatia eau tenei i mua ra iau c utu ana i etahi atu patai. Xi taku mahara kua maha noa atu aku korerotanga atu ma te Kotahitanga c hanga c whakatau he Pire hei riiwhi mo tenei Pire c takoto nei. Ko ta te Kotahitanga c whakatau ai koia tera, me waiho i tera; engari ki taku mahara kua korero atu ano ahau i tena i mua ra, a kua korero atu ano hoki au, ahakoa, kite riro ko te Pire a Henare Kaihau te mea c whakataua, kaati i tera, kei a ratou te tikanga. Te Tiamana: Mehemea kei te pena tau, kaati, kaore kau he tikanga o tau korero mai i au ake whakaaro i naianei. 220. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana koe kei te pai noa atu koe kia tukua atu he mana ki nga tangata i whakaaturia ote Runanga hei whakawa i nga take ki nga whenua, a kite roherohe i nga whenua, kite whakahaere hoki i nga riihi, me era atu mea; kite peratia he tikanga me pehea te Kooti Whenua Maori? Te Heuheu: Xi taku whakaaro he pai ke kia tukua atu ki nga Maori te whakahaere o nga mahi katoa mo aua whenua, kaua c penei me to naianei tikanga c waiho nei ma te Kooti Whenua Maori c whakahaere. Xi taku whakaaro kite riro ma te Runanga c mahi ka iti iho te moni c pau mo aua whakahaere. 221. Henare Kaihau : Me tohitu tonu atu taku patai: E penei ana koia tau me waiho tonu te Kooti Whenua Maori kia tv ana, ara, me tv tahi raua ko te Poari, kia rua ai nga mana whakatau paanga whenua ? Te Heuheu : Kaore. Xi taku kia kotahi tonu te hunga mana c whakawa c whakahaere nga mea epa ana ki nga Maori. He aha koia te take etu ai kia rua ? 222. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, me pehea ki tau te Kooti Whenua Maori? Te Heuheu : Xi taku, me whakakore atu. 223. Henare Kaihau: I penei ianei tau me tuku atu he mana ki nga Maori kia ahei ai ratou ki te whakawa i o ratou whenua, ame tetahi mana hoki kia ahei ai ratou kite whakawa tuarua i a ratou whenua i whakatau ai ? Te Heuheu : Koia ra tena tona tikanga. 224. Henare Kaihau :Ai ki tau me whaimana te Poari kite whakamana mapi kite whakahau hoki i nga kai-ruri kite ruri i nga whenua Maori ? Te Heuheu : I pena taku kupu :I ki ahau kite tukua atu te mana c korerotia nei ki nga Maori ma tera ka whai mana ratou kite mahi i ena mea katoa. 225. Henare Kaihau: Tena, me pehea te Runanga, te Kaunihera, te Kotahitanga, te Poari ranei c korerotia nei—kaore ano hoki i tino tau he ingoa mona—me whai mana ia kite whakatu Komihana kaua ranei ? Te Heuheu : Kua korerotia atu cau i mua rate tikanga c whakahaerea ai ena tv mahi, ara, i roto i taku korero nui. Xi te tukuna atu te mana c korerotia nei ki taua hunga, heoi koia tena etahi o nga mahi hei whakahaere ma ratou. ......'. 226. Henare Kaihau: Te take i ahua pakiki ai aku patai mo enei mea kia tohitu ai to korero atu kite Komiti ito whakaaro. E penei ana koia tau, me whai mana te Runanga, i whiriwhiria hei reo mo nga iwi Maori, kite whakatu i nga Komiti ?

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Te Heuheu : Ac; me whai mana taua hunga kite whakatu i nga Komiti. 227. Henare Kaihau: A me whaimana aua komiti kite whakahau kia whakawakia nga whenua? Te Heuheu: Ac. 228. Henare Kaihau : A ma aua komiti ano hoki pea c whakamana nga tiiti me era atu mea? Te Heuheu: Ac. Ma ratou c mahi ena mea katoa. Kotahi tonu te mea kei te arai i tena ahua kaore ano te mana i hoatu ki aua hunga, na reira kaore ratou c kaha kite mahi i ena mea katoa. Mehemea kua whiwhi ratou i taua mana ka taea c ratou ena mea katoa te mahi. 229. Henare Kaihau: A me whai mana taua Runanga kite whakatu i tetahi kai-rehita hei tuhituhi hei whakariterite haere i nga mahi a hei utu i nga komiti ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 230. Te Tiamana : Me Maori taua kai-rehita ? Te Heuheu: Ac. Kua korero ano au i mua ra, kite hiahia ratou me Pakeha taua apiha pai noa atu, ma tau i a ratou ki tera. Xi te hiahia taua hunga me Maori te kai-rehita, me waiho ita ratou. 231. Henare Kaihau: A me whai mana taua Runanga kite wehe i etahi whenua mo nga tangata rawakore, o te iwi Maori me era atu mahi c maharatia ana c ratou he tika? Te Heuheu : Ac ; ma te Runanga c whakahaere ena tikanga katoa ma kitea c ia he tika kia mahia. 232. Henare Kaihau : Me whaimana ranei taua Runanga kite whakahaere tikanga c wehea ai etahi whenua hei tuunga kura, me era atu mea ? Te Heuheu : Ac. Engari he mea hou tena. Ac ; he pai noa atu kia whakahaerea etc Runanga nga tikanga mo ena tv mahi. 234. Henare Kaihau : A koia tenei (ko te mana kia hoatu kite Runanga o te Kotahitanga hei whakahaere i enei mea katoa) te hiahia o nga tangata Maori puta noa i tenei Motu, he aha ranei to ratou tino hiahia ? Te Heuheu: Koia tenei (ko taua mana kia hoatu ki taua Runanga); koia tenei te tino hiahia o nga iwi Maori puta noa i tenei Motu. Ahakoa etahi o ratou c whakaatuatu nei kei te tautoko ratou i te Pire c takoto nei, otira ko to ratou tino hiahia ko te Runanga o te Kotahitanga kia whakamanaia. Ako Wi Pere, c noho nei, ko Henare Tomoana, me nga tangata katoa c tautoko nei ite Pire a te Kawanatanga c takoto nei, c rangirua ana ta ratou, notemea, timata i te tau 1882 tae mai ki enei tau, koia ena nga tangata tino kaha kite kauhau ki nga iwi kia hanga he tikanga penei te ahua me te mea c uiuia nei ki au. E penei ana ano hoki ta Taiaroa, M.L.0., o tera Motu. 235. Henare Kaihau : Tena, mehemea kite puta ake he raruraru i runga ite hoatutanga o taua mana ki nga Maori hei mahi i aua mea, ko te hea te Kooti mana c titiro c whakatau taua raruraru? Ko te Paremete ko te Hupirimi Kooti, ko te hea Kooti ranei ? Te Heuheit: Xi te puta ake he raruraru i te Runanga, i te Kaunihera ranei, i nga tangata ranei i whakaturia hei kai-mahi i raro i tona mana, a kite kore te Runanga c kaha kite whakahaere i taua raruraru, me tuku atu ma te Paremete c whakatau, ma te Hupirimi Kooti ranei. 236. Henare Kaihau : A, kaati, c ki ana koe c tino mohio ana koe koia tena te hiahia o nga iwi Maori puta noa i tenei Motu ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 237. Henare Kaihau : A ki to whakaaro kite whakatakotoria atu tenei mea kite aroaro o te Paremete, i runga i a taua tikanga c korero nei koe kite Komiti nei, tera ranei c whakaae nga iwi Maori katoa o te Motu nei ? Te Heuheu : Ka whakaae katoa. Te take i tino mohio ai au ka whakaae katoa, ko te whitu tenei o nga tau c tv ana nga huihuinga (o te Kotahitanga), a i tae tinana ahau ki aua huihuinga katoa, na reira c kaha ana ahau kite korero atu i taku i kite ai, ara, koia tenei te hiahia o nga iwi. 238. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana koe ka whakaae nga iwi katoa o te motu nei ki tenei tikanga ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 239. Henare Kaihau : Na, mehemea ka whakaurua ki taku Pire, c takoto nei ite aroaro o te Whare, nga tikanga me nga mea katoa c ki nei koe c hiahia ana koe kia paahitia hei ture, heoi kua rite i taku Pire nga hiahia o nga iwi katoa o te Motu nei ? Te Heuheu : Ka whakaae ratou, engari me matua whakaatu to Pire ki nga iwi katoa. Otira tena ano pea etahi wahi o to Pire c kore c whakaaetia c nga iwi, a tera ratou c hiahia kite whakatikatika i aua wahi. 240. Henare Kaihau: E pai ana; kaore pea koe i rongo, kua rongo ano ranei koe, kotahi rau nga kape o taua Pire i tuhaina ki nga iwi Maori o te pito whaka-raro o te Motu nei ? Te Heuheu : Kua rongo au. 241. Henare Kaihau : A i rongo ano pea hoki koe kotahi rau kape i tukua kite mema mo te Tai Rawhiti ? Te Heuheu : Kaore au i ata rongo i tena, engari kaore aku whakahe mehemea i penatia. Tena ano hoki pea c penatia. 242. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, c penei ana taku mohio atu kite tikanga o nga korero a te kaiwhakahoki patai : i te mea kua whakaae ia ki nga mea katoa i korerotia c au i tenei ra, a i te mea c ki ana au kei roto aua mea katoa i taku Pire, a i te mea kaore ano he whakahe mo nga tikanga o taku Pire i tae mai, c korerotia atu nei c au kite Komiti, na reira ka tino rite nga hiahia o nga tangata i taku Pire ? Te Heuheu : Ac pea ; tena pea kotahi ano rau tangata i kite i aua kape i tukuna atu na c koe, kaore pea etahi atu i kite ; a tena pea c rua nga take i noho puku ai ena tangata i kite na i to Pire. Tena pea kaore kau he whakahe a etahi, i kore ai he kupu ma ratou, a tena pea kaore etahi c whakaae ana ki to Pire, na reira i kore ai ratou c whai-kupu. Te Tiamana : He whakaatu taku ki a Henare Kaihau ko te Pire Whakanohonoho Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori ke te Pire c mahia nei c tenei Komiti, ehara i tana Pire.

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Henare Kaihau: E tika ana, engari, kia mohio te Tiamana, te take i via ai eau tenei patai he roa rawa he whanui rawa no te patai a Kapene Eahera i vi ai mo enei mea na reira kaore rawa c taea te utu poto atu. Ahakoa i rua, i toru, i wha ranei nga whakahokinga mai c kore c ea tana patai, notemea i uru ki taua patai nga tikanga katoa o te whakahaere c tohea nei c matou kia whakaaetia mo matou. Na reira i penei ai taku whakamarama kia tino mohio ai te Komiti, koia ano ko taku c hapai nei ta nga Maori c hiahia ana. y<? Tiamana : He whakamarama pea tau. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ; kei te patairia c au te kai-whakahoki patai. Kei te patai atu au ki a ia kia ki mai ia," ac, kei te pera, kaore ranei i te pera, a me tana whakahoki mai ano i aku patai. Kaore au i te tohutohu i te ki me penei na me pera ra tana utu mai. Te Tiamana : Kaore i pena taku kupu. I penei ke na, ki taku mohio kei te whakamarama koe i nga tikanga. Henare Kaihau : Ac ; i via ai c au te patai kite kai-whakahoki patai kia tino mau ai i a ia te aronga o te patai a Kapene Eahera, a ko tetahi kia tuwhera ai ano he huarahi hei whakahokinga mai mana i taua patai. Te Taimana : B pai ana ; haere tonu o patai. 243. Henare Kaihau: Kaore aku patai ke afcu ko tenei anake, notemea kaore au ite hiahia kia mahara te Tiamana kei te pehea ranei kei te pehea ranei taku whakatete i te Pire c takoto nei i to tatou aroaro. He patai uaua tenei ka patairia atu nei c au. Tena pea kite whakaaro 0 etahi tangata he ngawari noa iho, ki au he pakeke rawa. Ka maha o whakahuatanga i tenei mea ite Kotahitanga i roto i o korero :He aha taua mea; he aha tona tikanga ? Te Heuheu : He roa taku utu atu mo tena patai. Tona tikanga he whakahuihui i nga iwi Maori katoa kia kotahi tonu to ratou hiahia me ta ratou tikanga i raro i te mana i whakapumautia nei ki a ratou c te Tiriti o Waitangi, c tekiona 71 o te Ture o te tau 1852 c nga kupu hoki i korerotia kite hui ki Kohimarama ite tau 1860 ite tau 1862 ranei. Ko tenei kupu " Whakaputahitanga " ehara ite kupu hanga hou i enei ra. No te tau 1840 mai ra ano taua kupu, no te huinga o nga kaumatua 512 me era atu rangatira i waho atu i a ratou i te wa i whakaaetia ai nga tikanga o taua wa, a tae noa mai kite tau 1856, kite wa i karangatia ai c taku koroua nga rangatira katoa o te Motu nei, apiti atu ki a Potatau, kia haere atu ki Taupo, a tv ana te hui ki Pukawa. No taua hui ka whakatakotoria te kupu kite aroaro o nga rangatira i hui ra ki reira, me whakakotahi ratou katoa kia kotahi tonu ai he tikanga i raro i te Tiriti o Waitangi. Whakaturia ana i taua wa a Potatau hei Kingi. Koia te pou hei herenga 1 nga tangata me o ratou whenua. Ma taua tangata c awhina nga iwi me nga whenua i raro i nga tikanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi, a mana c pupuri nga iwi puta noa i te Motu nei kei takahia c ratou te Tiriti o Waitangi tetahi wahi ranei o taua mea, a i hereherea ki nga ingoa o nga maunga nunui o ia takiwa nga kupu a nga rangatira o ia takiwa i tae ki taua hui hei tohu kua tino whakapumautia nga tikanga c korerotia nei c au. Ko taku korua tetahi nana i whakatu a Potatau hei Kingi, a koia ena nga take i uru ai ia ki taua mahi. Ko nga Whakaputahitanga c rua itu na i aua wa ko te Kotahitanga ano tena c korerotia nei eau i tenei ra. Koia tena taku utu atu mo tena patai. Ka taea ano eau te whakapau katoa atu nga korero mo tena mea, engari kaati pea kua rahi aku korero. 244. Tame Parata : Kua korero mai koe kite Komiti kaore koe i te pai ki nga wahi katoa o tenei Pire, a ko to hiahia me whakakore atu tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu : Xi te whakataua c te Komiti me patu atu te Pire i naianei tonu, ka pai tonu au ki tena ; a kite whakataua c te Komiti me nuku ka tuku atu ai kia whiriwhiria ano c te iwi Maori, ko taku kupu ano o te tuatahi ra, ara, ka pai noa atu au ki tena. 245. Tame Parata : A kaati, kaore koe c pai kia whakatikatikaina te Pire? Te Heuheu : Kaua c whakatikatikaina i naianei, notemea, ko nga iwi nana matou i tuku mai ki konei, me nga tangata kua tuku mai nei i nga pitihana whakahe mo te Pire, kaore ano ratou i mohio mai ki a matou menemana whakatikatika c whakaae ai mo te Pire. Akuanei c kore pea ratou c pai ki aua menemana kite mahia tonutia atu i naianei. 246. Tame Parata: He pai ke ki a koe kia tukuna atu te Pire nei kia whiriwhiria etc hui nui ka tv ia Maehe kite pito whaka-raro o te Motu nei ? Te Heuheu : Ac. 247. Tame Parata: Tena, mehemea kaore c whakaae taua hui ki a koutou tikanga c whakaatuatu mai nei kite Komiti, me pehea ? Te Heuheu : Me hoatu he taima hei whiriwhiringa a tera c tau he whakaaetanga ma ratou. 248. Tame Parata : Ehara ranei i te mea kua ono kua whitu nga tau c mahi ana aua tv huihui a kaore ano he tikanga i kitea c ratou ? Te Heuheu : Kaore. Kua whakaae ratou katoa kite Whakaputahitanga, ara, kotahi tonu he tikanga ma katoa ; engari ko nga ture me nga huarahi hei whakahaere i a ratou nga mea kaore ano i tau i a ratou. 249. Tame Parata: Kaore ranei c wehewehe ana ratou c pakaru ana etahi ki waho i nga tahuritanga kite kimi i tetahi tikanga; ma hoki te Kotahitanga, kaore koia tena c pakaru ana? Te Heuheu : Kaore; heoi ano nga tangata kaore c whakaae ana kite Whakaputahitanga ko Te Whiti ko Tohu me o raua iwi. 250. Tame Parata : Kei te mohio pea koe kaore te nuinga o nga iwi o Te Waipounamu i te whakaae kite Kotahitanga? Te Heuheu : Kaore au i te mohio kei te whakaae ranei te nuinga o nga tangata o Te Waipounamu kite Kotahitanga kaore ranei. Kua kite au i a Taiaroa, aki taku mohio ko ia te tino rangatira nui o Te Waipounamu, a kei te hapai ia i te Kotahitanga. 251. Tame Parata : Kaore kau koia he rangatira ke atu o Te Waipounamu c rite ana ki tau i whakahua na te nui ? s—l. 3a.

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Te Heuheu : Ac ; kua rongo au tena ano etahi atu rangatira o reira. I rongo au ki oku kaumatua. 252. Tame Parata: Me o ratou uri hoki: kaore koia ratou i rite ki a Taiaroa; a kaore ratou c tautoko ana i te Kotahitanga? Te Heuheu: Kaore au ite mohio ko wai ma ena rangatira. Kaore ano i korerotia mai ki au, na reira c kore hoki c tohitu taku whakahoki. 253. Tame Parata : I korero atu koe kite Komiti, ki to whakaaro me tau nga whenua katoa ki te Poari nui ma whakaturia c nga iwi Maori katoa ? Te Heuheu: Ac. 254. Tame Parata: Kaore koia koe c mohio ana kei te wehewehe tonu nga whakaaro o nga iwi c noho nei i tenei motu mo runga i tenei mea ? Te Heuheu : E mohio ana ahau kei te takoto ke te whakaaro o Te Whiti me ona iwi. 255. Tame Parata : Ko nga iwi o waho atu i a ia taku c mea nei ? Te Heuheu : I pena taku kupu mo etahi o nga iwi o Te Waipounamu. 256. Tame Parata : Ko tet.ahi, kei te wehewehe nga whakaaro mo tenei Pire, ma hoki he maha nga pitihana kua tae mai hei tautoko i te Pire? Te Heuheu : Ac, kei te mohio au ki tena ; engari, me ata whakamarama atu tena —c he ana te ki kei te tautoko ena pitihana i te Pire, notemea kaore nga pitihana i te pena. Ko ena pitihana kei te tautoko ke i nga menemana whakatikatika i mahia c nga tangata nana ena pitihana mo te Pire tuatahi i whakaatuaturia haeretia nei ki a ratou, kaore rawa i tukuna mai aua pitihana hei tautoko i te Pire c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Komiti. 257. Tame Parata: Kaore ha he whakaatu tena kite whakatikatikaina te Pire nei kia rite kite hiahia o nga Maori nana i tuku mai ena pitihana, heoi ka tautoko ratou i te Pire ? 258. Hon. Timi Kara : E ki ana te kai-whakahoki patai kei te tautoko nga kai-pitihana katoa i nga menemana whakatikatika, a c ki ana a Tame Parata kite whakaaetia nga whakatikatika kia uru kite Pire katahi ratou ka tautoko, na reira ka tika te kupu kei te noho wehewehe nga whakaaro o nga iwi Maori mo tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu : Ac ; c tika ana tena. Xi te paahitia ena menemana whakatikatika, a hei muri i tera patai mai ia ki au mehemea kei te wehewehe nga whakaaro o nga tangata, katahi au ka kaha kite ki atu, Ac. Otira, koi nei ano taku utu mo te patai, pena ano te ahua, aWi Pere i patai ai i nanahi. Kia mohio, i penei taku utu ite patai aWi Pere : I ki ahau, " Mehemea c whakaae ana koe kia patua atu etahi tekiona o te Pire, ara, tekiona 11 me 12, ka pai noa atu au kia paahitia te Pire hei ture mo nga tangata anake c tautoko nei i te Pire. 259. Tame Parata : I korero mai koe kite Komiti nei i era rangi kaore koe c pai kia paahitia tenei Pire mo tetahi wahanga anake o nga Maori o tenei Motu, ahakoa hiahia ratou me mana ki to ratou takiwa anake ? Te Heuheu : Kaore pea i pena taku korero. Korerotia mai ano to patai. 260. Tame Parata : I korero mai koe kite Komiti nei i nanahi kaore koe c whakaae ki tenei Pire, ki tetahi atu Pire ranei c rite ana te ahua ki tenei, kia paahitia mo tetahi takiwa ahakoa kiia mo taua takiwa anake. I ahua penei to korero? Te Heuheu : I penei taku korero : ahakoa apitiria atu ki tenei Pire nga menemana whakatikatika katoa i paahitia nei c te hui ki Papawai, engari kite mau tonu i roto i te Pire nei a tekiona 11 me 12 me o raua wawahanga tekiona, penei me to raua ahua c mau nei i roto i te Pire, heoi c kore au c whakaae kia paahitia te Pire nei hei ture, ahakoa paahitia mo tetahi wahanga anake o te iwi. 262. Hon. Timi Kara : Tena, mehemea kaua aua tekiona i roto i te Pire c pa ki tou takiwa— me Pire ke mo tou takiwa, he aha te take i whakahe ai koe ki tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu: Xi taku whakaaro ehara tena ite patai. 263. Tame Parata: He pena ano taku patai ki a koe me ta Hon. Timi Kara. Aua atu te hui ki Papawai. Kaua tatou c korero mo nga whakatikatika i mahia ki Papawai. Ina taku c hiahia ana kia mohio au : Mehemea c rua c toru ranei nga kainga, tae atu ranei kite ono, c tuku pitihana mai ana ki tenei Whare, c penei ana, " Kei te whakaae matou kia pa te Pire Whakanohonoho Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori ki o matou takiwa, engari me whakauru atu etahi menemana whakatikatika," ka whakahe ranei koe a ka mea kaua te Pire nei c whakaaetia kia pa ki aua takiwa anake ? Te Heuheu : E kore au c whakahe kite kore te Pire c pa atu ki etahi atu iwi me o ratou whenua. Engari koi nei ano taku whakahoki i mua ake nei, ara, kite apitiria kite Pire nei nga menemana i whakaaetia c te hui ki Papawai, a kite patua atu hoki a tekiona 11 me 12, o tenei Pire, mehemea ka pena heoi ka kore taku whakahe, pai noa atu te Pire kia pa ki etahi takiwa ma tonoa c nga iwi o reira kia pera. E rite tahi ana te tikanga o tenei whakahoki aku ki taku i korero atu ai i mua ra. 264. Tame Parata : I ki koe i mua ake nei, ia Henare Kaihau c patai ana ki a koe, i karangatia tetahi hui nui ki Taupo, a whakataua ana c taua hui me tv ko Potatau hei Kingi mo tenei Motu katoa, mana c pupuri nga whenua katoa, a mana c whakahaere nga iwi Maori katoa o te Motu nei? Te Heuheu : Ac. Ikiau i hoatu eia rangatira te ingoa o tona maunga hei pou herenga kupu. 265. Tame Parata : Pehea te roa o tena tikanga c mau ana? Te Heuheu : E whitu tau c mau ana, no te tau 1863, ka puta he raruraru. 266. Tame Parata : Na wai i timata taua raruraru : na te hea iwi i raro i te Kingi i timata? Te Heuheu: I timata te raruraru ki Waikato. 267. Tame Parata : Xi te wahi i tv ai te Kingi ? Te Heuheu: Ko Ngaruawahia te kainga i noho ai te Kingi i taua wa. 268. Tame Parata : I uru ranei nga iwi o te Tai Rawhiti kite tikanga i whakatakotoria na ki Taupo, ara, a Ngatiporou me Ngatikahungunu ?

35

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Te Heuheu : Xi taku whakaaro i tae etahi o Ngatikahungunu ki reira; engari i tae ano he kupu ma taku koroua ki a Te Kani-a-Takirau, ko ia hoki te rangatira nui o te Tai Rawhiti, a i tae hoki he kupu ma Te Kani ki taku koroua, iki atu taku koroua ki aTe Kani: "■ Xi a koe te Kingi, notemea he maha nga iwi kei raro i a koe." Ka utua atu eTe Kani, "Xi a koe te Kingi notemea ko koe te tangata kei waenganui ote Motu." Ka titiro taku koroua kite iti o Ngatituwharetoa hei tautoko i te Kingi, heoi tukua atu c ia ki a Waikato kite iwi nui. 269. Tame Parata : Akuanei ka pera ano pea te ahua, a ahakoa oti he tikanga i te hui ka tv nei, tena pea ka pakaru ano etahi o nga tangata ki waho ? Te Heuheu: . E penei ana taku, ki taku whakaaro kite hoatu c te Paremete kite iwi Maori te mana c tonoa nei c ratou, kia whai mana ai ratou kite hanga ture kite hanga huarahi whakahaere mo ratou, ka kotahi ratou. Ko tetahi o nga tino take i kore ai c taea c te iwi Maori te whakakotahi i a ia he kore mana hei hanga ture, na reira ka huahua kore noa iho nga whakaaro i roto i a ratou. E noho nei kua kore noa iho c mohio me pehea ra me pehea ra. Ina hoki, kite oti i a ratou tetahi tikanga te whakatakoto hei whakahaere i a ratou, tena pea c kore c hapaina c whakaaetia ranei c te Paremete te mea i oti ra i a ratou, na reira ka kopikopiko noa iho te iwi Maori, he tangata ano me tana whakaaro he tangata ano me tana whakaaro. 270. Tame Parata : A tena, ki tau mo a hea rawa c kotahi ai tenei iwi te Maori ? Te Heuheu :Ka tika tonu te ki kua kotahi ratou i naianei. Kua korero atu au ki tenei Komiti c toru tekau ma whitu mano nga tangata kei te tautoko i te Kotahitanga. Ko tetahi wahanga nui ote iwi, ara, nga iwi o Kingi Mahuta, kua whakaae katoa kite Kotahitanga. Ko Te Whiti anake me ona iwi nga mea kei te wehe. 271. Tame Parata ; E mea ana koia nga iwi o te Kotahitanga kia riro ma ratou ano c whakahaere o ratou whenua, ara, nga whenua Maori anake o te Motu o Aotearoa nei ? Te Heuheu : Ac, whiti atu hoki ki Te Waipounamu. 272. Tame Parata : Haunga Te Waipounamu, waiho ake a reira? Te Heuheu : Ko to matou hiahia ko tetahi ture c uru ai nga iwi Maori katoa o Niu Tireni, kia kotahi te tikanga. Kua korero atu ano ahau ki a koe, i runga i o patai tuatahi ra, kua tino whakaae etahi o nga iwi o Te Waipounamu ki ta matou whakahaere. 273. Tame Parata : Kei te mohio ranei koe c rereke ana te ahua o nga taitara o nga whenua Maori o Te Waipounamu i o Aotearoa nei ? Te Heuheu : Kaore. Heoi taku i mohio, i tae mai etahi tangata o reira ki nga huihuinga ote Kotahitanga, a i runga i taku i rongo ai ki a ratou, mehemea nei tera c puta he ora mo ratou whenua kite taka aua whenua ki raro i te whakahaere a te Kotahitanga. 274. Tame Parata: Kaore koe ite mohio ki etahi o nga tangata i uru kite Kotahitanga no muri ka kite i te he ka unu i a ratou ki waho ? Te Heuheu: Ac; I rongo ano hoki au ite take. He puhaehae i puta ake i roto i nga iwi oTe Waipounamu. I mea etahi o ratou me tv te Kotahitanga ki Te Waipounamu: 275. Tame Parata: E penei ana tau, he pai ake te Pire a Henare Kaihau ite Pire ate Kawanatanga c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Whare ? Te Heuheu : Ac; he pai rawa atu te Pire a Henare Kaihau i tenei c takoto nei. 276. Tame Parata: E penei ana koia tau, me tuturu motuhake he Paremete Maori? Te Heuheu: Ac.

Pabaiee, 7 Oketopa, 1898. Te Heuheu : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 277. Henare Kaihau: I patai a Tame Parata ki a koe c hia nga tau i muri iho ite hui itu ki Pukawa, i whakaturia nei te Kingi, ka timata te raruraru, a i penei taku whakarongo atu ki to whakahoki c whitu nga tau. Katahi a Tame Parata ka vi atu i timata ki hea te raruraru, a utua atu ana c koe i timata ki Waikato ite tau 1863. Na c putake mai ana i roto i aua patai me nga whakahoki mo aua patai tenei patai ka via atu nei c au. Kaore ranei koe i rongo i tetahi raruraru i puta ki Wairau, ki Te Waipounamu ? Te Heuheu: Ac. I rongo au i taua raruraru—ko te raruraru tuatahi tera i waenganui i nga Pakeha me nga Maori; engari kaore taua raruraru i tupu ake i roto ite mahi whakatu Kingi. Ko te whawhai i putake mai i te mahi whakatu Kingi, c ai ki taku i rongo ai, i korero ai i tahi ra ake nei, no te tau 1863. 278. Henare Kaihau: Kaore ranei koe i rongo ki tetahi pakanga i ara ki Whanganui ite tau 1843? Te Heuheu: E patai ana koia koe mo te riri ki Moutoa ? 279. Henare Kaihau : Ac? Te Heuheu: Ac; c mohio ana au i ara te whawhai ki Whanganui, a kei reira etu ana te kohatu hei tohu whakamahara mo taua riri, engari kaore au i te mohio kite tau. Otira kua korerotia mai ki au ehara i te whakatuunga i te Kingi te take o taua whawhai. 280. Henare Kaihau: Kaore ranei koe i rongo i tv Waitara te tino whawhai tuatahi ite tau 1860? Te Heuheu: Kua rongo au ki taua whawhai. Na Kirikumara raua ko Te Eangitaake, ko te take o taua whawhai ko te raruraru o Te Rangitaake raua ko Te Teira. Te Tiamana : Kaore au i te kite i te paanga o enei patai kite Pire c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Komiti. 281. Henare Kaihau: Akuanei ra kitea ai. Kaore ranei koe c rongo ana i ara he whawhai ki Ngapuhi i te tau 1845 ? Te Heuheu : Mehemea c patai ana koe mo te whawhai a Hone Heke, ac kei te mohio au. 282. Henare Kaihau: Na, mo te whawhai c korero nei koe i tv ki Waikato i te tau 1863 : ka taea ranei c koe te whakamarama mai i te take o taua whawhai ?

I.—3a.

36

Te Heuheu: Xi taku ra i rongo ai, i pohehe nga Pakeha ki taua whakatuunga i te Kingi i mahara he takahi tera i te mana o te Kuini, kaore ia ra he hapai ke i te mana i hoatu ra ki a ratou i raro i te Tiriti o Waitangi. Koia hoki tena te kupu a taku koroua ki a Potatau i te hui ki Pukawa; iki ia me here te Kuini raua ko te Kingi kia kotahi i raro ite ture, ako te Atua Kaha Rawa ki runga i a raua tokorua. Kei te mohio nga uri o nga tangata i tae ki taua hui kite tika o enei korero. Ko te kupu a Potatau ahakoa miro whero miro pango miro ma ranei kotahi ano te puare ote ngira c kuhua ai. Ma enei kupu c mohio ai te Komiti ko te tino take i whakaturia ai te Kingi he hapai i te mana i raro i te Tiriti o Waitangi, a ki taku tino mohio mehemea, i te wa i puta tuatahi ai taua raruraru ki Waikato, i ata uiuia tona tikanga, a i tino kimihia c nga Pakeha te take, penei kua kore noa iho he take c whawhai ai te Maori raua ko te Pakeha, a kua kore hoki c riro nga whenua o te Maori i te raupatu. Te Tiamana : Kei whea te paanga o ena korero mo nga whawhai kite Pire c hurihuria nei c tatou ? 283. Henare Kaihau: E pai ana; kua mutu aku patai mo tena take. Tena, i tae mai ranei he kupu whakahau ma te Kuini kia ara te pakanga ki Niu Tireni hei turaki i te Kingi ? Te Heuheu: Tena pea i tae mai ano he whakahau, engari kaore au i rongo. 284. Henare Kaihau: Mehemea kaore i puta he kupu ma te Kuini me whawhai te Kingi Maori me ona iwi, ki to mahara c whai mana ana nga Pakeha o Niu Tireni kite whakaara pakanga ki nga Maori o tenei Motu ? Te Heuheu : Kaore ratou i whai mana. Kaore kau ate Kuini take pakanga ki nga Maori, a kaore kau he take i whawhai ai. Te Tiamana: Kaore rawa au i te kite kei hea te paanga o enei korero kite Pire c whiriwhiria nei c tatou. Kaore tatou i haere mai ki konei kite uiui i nga take i ara ai te whawhai i nga ra o mua. Ehara rawa tena i te mahi i whakaritea ma tatou, a he moumou noa iho tena tv mahi i te taima o te Komiti. Henare Kaihau: E pai ana. Otira he tikanga tona c whaia nei c aku patai, koia tenei: Mehemea c pena ana (ara, kaore a te Kuini take whawhai ki nga Maori, ara, na nga Pakeha o Niu Tireni te take o te whawhai ki nga Maori), ka tika ranei kia whakahaerea he Pire penei me tenei c takoto nei hei tango atu i te mana i nga Maori i whakapumautia nei ki a ratou i raro i te Tiriti o Waitangi? Kaore rawa te Kuini i whakaara pakanga ki nga Maori o tenei Motu, a kaore kau hoki he take i whawhaitia ai nga Maori c nga Pakeha o tenei Motu; na reira kaore kau hoki he take c tangohia ai te mana i whakapumautia nei ki a ratou etc Tiriti o Waitangi. Ka patai ahau kite Tiamana, c kore koia c tuwhera he huarahi moku hei patainga i aku patai i mahara ai he tika hei whakamarama i nga take i whakahe ai nga Maori ki tenei Pire kua homai nei kia whiriwhiria c tatou. Te Tiamana : Kaore rawa aku whakahe ki tena. Ina ke taku c whakahe ana ko te kumenga mai i nga take katoa i ara ai te pakanga ki Waikato. Mehemea hoki ko tena he mahi ma tatou, heoi ka tika noa atu ia mema ia mema o te Komiti nei kite patapatai ki ia kai korero mo nga take katoa o ia whawhai ki Waikato ki hea atu ranei, mo nga parekura katoa, a kite vi ko te hea taha i hinga ko te he"a i toa, me era atu mea katoa. Te tukunga iho, kei hea ra tona mutunga. Henare Kaihau : Xi taku, kite rongo atu ahau i tetahi mema o te Komiti nei c vi ana i nga patai ahua whakapae mo nga iwi o te takiwa c tv nei au hei mema mo reira, kite pera, heoi ka tika hoki au kite vi atu i aku patai i kite ai hei whakahe mo aua whakapae. Te Tiamana : I runga i taku mahi Tiamana kua tukua mai maku c arai nga mahi penei te ahua, na reira heoi nga patai c whakaaetia ko nga mea anake c puta mai ai te kai-whakahoki patai etahi matauranga mo te Pire c whiriwhiria nei c tatou. Henare Kaihau : Kua mutu aku patai. Tame Parata: Xi taku whakaaro kaore kau he kino o aku patai mo te takiwa o Henare Kaihau, i riri ai ia ki au. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i whakahua ingoa tangata. Tame Parata : Mehemea nei ra c korero ana koe mo aku patai. Henare Kaihau : Kua whakamaramatia atu nei hoki c au. Tame Parata : I mahara au kei te riri koe mo aku korero, a i runga i te ahua o kupu ka penei ano hoki me taku te mahara o etahi o nga mema o tenei Komiti. Henare Kaihau : Kaore kau he take c riri ai ahau. Engari he mea noku kia marama ai nga hiahia o nga Maori. Heoi te take i mea ai au kite vi i taua patai kia tino marama ai te Komiti ki te tikanga o nga patai a Tame Parata. Tame Parata : Ko te tikanga o aku patai he whakamarama i nga tikanga c whakakotahi nei te iwi Maori i mua, a i muri tata ano ka pakaru, ka whakarere i nga i nga tikanga i mahia c ratou. Na reira ki taku whakaaro ka pera ano pea te mana c tonoa nei c ratou, tena pea c tv mo etahi tau torutoru nei katahi ka pakarukaru ano, ma hoki kua pakaru te Kotahitanga. 285. Te Tiamana : Kaati, kua mutu a korua korero whakamarama. Kotahi taku patai kite kai-whakahoki patai. Xi taku titiro ki ana korero, mehemea nei he pai ake ki aia te Pire a Henare Kaihau ite Pire c takoto nei ite aroaro ote Komiti; c pena ana koia tau ? Te Heuheu : E pena ana taku. 286. Te Tiamana : I a koe c whakahoki ana i tetahi o nga patai a Te Maka, i penei pea to kupu, ka tv he hui nui ma nga Maori ki Waitangi a te marama o Maehe c haere ake nei? Te Heuheu: Ac. 287. Te Tiamana : A kia tv taua hui ka korerotia tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu : Ac; tenei Pire me te Pire a Henare Kaihau me etahi atu mea hoki; ama taua hui c whakatau c ki ko tetahi ranei o nga Pire nei he Pire, me hanga ranei he Pire hou rereke noa atu ona tikanga i o enei Pire c rua c takoto nei. 288. Te Tiamana: Ka taea ranei c taua hui ki Waitangi te hanga tetahi Pire marama hei whakatakoto kite Paremete, ara, tetahi Pire c whakaaetia ana c nga iwi Maori katoa o Niu Tireni.

37

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Te Heuheu: Xi taku whakaaro ka taea, notemea kua maro he huarahi mo ratou, ako tetahi ka tae atu ki reira nga tangata i whiriwhiria c ia iwi puta noa i Niu Tireni ki reira whakaputa ai i o ratou whakaaro. 289. Te Tiamana : I rongo au i a koe c korero atu ana ki aWi Pere, kite whakaae nga Maori ote Tai Rawhiti kite Pire ate Kawanatanga ka whakahe koe me etahi atu Maori? Te Heuheu: I korero ahau kite waiho tonu a tekiona 11 me 12 i roto ite Pire penei me to raua ahua c mau nei katahi au ka whakahe, engari mehemea ka patua aua tekiona ka whakatikatikaina ranei i runga i te aronga kua tohutohungia atu nei ki tenei Komiti, heoi kua kore aku whakahe. Engari, etc Tiamana, me whakamarama atu ahau : E penei ana taku titiro ki tenei patai: He maha nga Ture motuhake kua paahitia mo te Tai Rawhiti. Ina hoki na Te Riihi tetahi Pire mo reira i whakahaere kite aroaro o tenei Komiti i mua tata ake nei, engari kua nukuhia mo tera tau. Xi te paahitia taua Pire mo taua takiwa aki te paahitia hoki tenei mo taua takiwa ano, ka wha rawa nga Ture c mana ana i roto i taua takiwa. 290. Te Tiamana : Haunga tena. Me mau o korero kite patai he aha te take i whakahe ai koe ki tenei Pire kia kaua c paahitia hei ture mo te Tai Rawhiti anake, a c whakaae ai koe me patu atu etahi tekiona o taua Pire. Na, kua tae tenei ki taku patai c hiahia nei au kite vi atu ki a koe : Tena, a te marama o Maehe c haere ake nei, ma huihui nga Maori ki Waitangi, mehemea ka whakaae ratou kite tuku mai kite Paremete i tetahi Pire marama c whakaaetia ana c nga iwi Maori katoa, engari kaore c hiahiatia ana c te Tai Rawhiti, ka tohe tonu ranei koe kia whakaaetia tera hei ture mo te Tai Rawhiti ahakoa kore ratou c pai ? Te Heuheu: E penei ke ana taku : Kaore ano tenei Pire i whakaaetia c nga iwi ote Tai Rawhiti, na reira ko te mea pai me tatari marire kia tv te hui ki Waitangi a te marama o Maehe c haere ake nei kia kitea te ahua ote Pire i oti i taua hui. Me ki atu hoki au, he mema ano o te Tai Rawhiti kei roto i te Runanga o te Kotahitanga, a ka karangatia ano ratou kia tae ki taua hui. Mehemea, ma tae ratou ki reira, kite kore ratou c whakaae ki nga tikanga i whakaaetia c nga mangai o era atu iwi Maori o enei Motu, kite marama ranei i a ratou te take i kore ai ratou c whakaae ki aua tikanga, heoi me whakarite atu to ratou hiahia. 291. Te Tiamana: Kaati, kite oti i nga Maori he Pire ma ratou ma tv te hui ki Waitangi, ka peneitia ano.pea c ratou te ahua me tenei Pire, ara, ma te whakaae rawa o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua ka tau ai ki to ratou takiwa ? Te Heuheu: E penei ana taku kupu :Ki te tau i nga tangata katoa o tetahi wahanga ote iwi he Pire pai tera mo ratou, heoi kaore c tika kia araia c etahi tangata to ratou hiahia kite whakamatau i taua mea. 292. Te Tiamana: Haunga tena. Ko te Pire c takoto nei ma te matua whakaae rawa o nga tangata c tau ai ki runga ki to ratou takiwa ? Te Heuheu : Kaore au i te mohio kei te pena. 293. Te Tiamana: E penei ana a tekiona 11: "Kaore tenei Ture c whakaaetia kia whakahaerea ki roto ki tetahi takiwa whenua Maori kite kore c ata tonoa kia peratia c nga Maori no ratou nga whenua, a me whakaatu taua hiahia o ratou i runga i nga ritenga kua whakaritea i raro ake nei." Te Heuheu : Ac ra; engari ko te tikanga o ena kupu c penei ana, ka ahei te rua tekau tangata kite tono kia tau te Pire ki runga kite takiwa katoa. Mau c titiro ka kite koe c rite ana te aronga o ena kupu ki nga tikanga kei raro iho i ena kupu c noho ana i roto i te Pire. 294. Te Tiamana: Koia pea kei te tika tau, engari kaore hoki c tino riro ana me aki noa atu te Pire kia tau ki runga ki tetahi takiwa. Tena, kei te whakaae ranei koe, ma tv te hui ki Waitangi, kite whakauru i tetahi tekiona ki roto kite Pire hei whakamarama l taua wahi ote Pire, ara, ma nga iwi no ratou nga whenua c matua whakaae katahi ka tau te ture ki runga ki o ratou whenua, a mau c tuku atu kia whiriwhiria c te hui ? Te Heuheu: Xi taku, kaua tena, notemea kite tau ite nuinga ote iwi Maori tetahi tikanga whakahaere mo te iwi nui tonu, kaore c tika etahi tangata o roto i a ratou kia puta ki waho o taua whakahaere. Xi te tohe tonu etahi tangata, ara, kite ki c kore rawa ratou c whakaae ki taua Pire ma oti hei ture, kei a ratou te tikanga. E kore c taea taua ture te aki ki runga ki a ratou. 295. Te Tiamana: > Koia ra hoki tena; ma hoki c mea ana tena korero au, me waiho kite iwi te ritenga, ma te iwi c ki me mana te ture ki runga ki to ratou takiwa kaua ranei ? Te Heuheu : Xi te oti i te hui katoa, ara, i nga tangata i tukuna atu ki reira hei mangai mo nga iwi Maori katoa ote Motu nei, tetahi tikanga, kaati, me kaha hoki ratou kite whakahaere i o ratou iwi kia pai ai ki taua tikanga. 296. Te Tiamana : Engari ma nga pitihana kua tae mai nei mo te Pire c kite ai koe kaore rawa i te kotahi nga whakaaro o te iwi Maori mo taua mea ? Te Heuheu : E mohio ana ahau c toru mano nga tangata kua haina i nga pitihana tautoko i te Pire, a kei te mohio hoki au tekau mano nuku aku nga kai-pitihana c whakahe ana i te Pire. 297. Te Tiamana ; Kaore ha, ma tena c mohiotia ai, kaore i te kotahi te whakaaro o nga iwi Maori ? Te Heuheu : E tika ana tena. Engari me ki atu ahau i tenei, ko te nuinga ote 5,000,000 eka c toe nei ki nga Maori tona nuinga no te tekau mano tangata i tuku mai nei i nga pitihana whakahe mo te Pire. Me ki noa ake c tatou c 5,000,000 nga eka kei te toe ki nga Maori, aki taku mohio c nui atu ana i te hawhe o aua eka nga whenua kei nga tangata i tuku mai nei i nga pitihana turaki i te Pire. 298. Te Tiamana : I te mea ka tv he hui ki Waitangi, ko te hea tau c pai ai ko te hiki i tenei Pire kia mutu taua hui ko te patu rawa atu ranei i tenei Pire ? Te Heuheu : Etc Tiamana, c rua aku huarahi c hiahia ana, ara, kite kore c taea c tetahi, kaati ko tetahi. Kia rua aku whakahoki. Tuatahi, he pai rawa ki au kia patua rawa atu te Pire ; tuarua, kite kore te Komiti c whakaae ki tera, kaati, ko te mea pai ki au me hiki kia mutu te hui ki Waitangi. Naku ake tenei whakaaro. Ko enei whakahoki c rua aku c hoatu ana mo te taha ki

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te tekau mano tangata i tuku mai nei i nga pitihana turaki ite Pire. E tautoko ana nga pitihana a taua tekau mano tangata i enei kupu aku, ma hoki c ki ana aua pitihana me patu rawa atu te Pire kite kore tera kaati me hiki kia mutu te hui. Ko taku ake whakaaro, ta.toku kotahi, me patu i naianei te Pire me whakakore rawa atu. 299. Te Tiamana: Kaati, kite penatia, c kore c korerotia tenei Pire etc hui ki Waitangi. Te Heuheu : Ka korerotia ano; maku c whakamarama. 300. Te Tiamana : Kaore he take c korerotia ai i te mea kua tupapakutia te Pire ? Te Heuheu :Ka tukua mai kite Paremete te mea i oti ite hui, ahakoa kore c hoatu he Pire hei whiriwhiri ma ratou. Ko nga kupu ote pukapuka inoi i tukua atu nei etc iwi Maori kite Kuini, a i utua mai nei c ia, c penei ana, c hiahia ana nga Maori kia waiho ma ratou ano c whakahaere nga morehu whenua c toe nei ki a ratou ; na, koia tena ta ratou c hiahia ana. Te Maka : Kaore c pai kia pohehe nga mema o te Komiti i runga i tetahi o whakahoki ki nga patai a Henare Kaihau. I penei hoki taku titiro atu, mehemea nei, c ki ana koe, na te Kuini i tautoko te whawhai ki nga iwi o Waikato ? Te Heuheu : Kaore ; kaore i pena taku kupu. I penei taku kupu : i pohehe nga Pakeha o enei Motu kite tino tikanga i whakaturia ai te Kingi. I mahara ratou he turaki ta taua mahi whakatu Kingi a nga Maori i te mana o te Kuini. Te Maka : I mahara au i ki koe na te Kuini te take o te whawhai. Te Heuheu : Kaore. Heeepete Rapihana :Ka karangatia kite aroaro o te Komiti: ka whai korero, ka mutu: ka patairia. Te Tiamana : E pai ana te Komiti kia korerotia mai c koe au whakaaro mo te Pire i runga ito tunga hei mangai mo te pito ki Ngapuhi. Kua rongo koe i nga korero a te kai-whakahoki patai kua mutu ake nei, a c mea atu ana ahau ki a koe kaua c tuaruatia mai c koe nga mea kua oti i a ia te korero, engari me korero mai c koe ko au i mohio ai hei whakaatuatu mai i nga whakaaro me nga hiahia o nga iwi Maori o te pito whaka-raro o te Motu nei ? Herepete Bapihana : Kia orate Tiamana me nga mema ote Komiti. Ko aku kupu tuatahi, c tautoko ana ahau i nga kupu katoa a te kai-whakahoki patai kua mutu ake nei, koia hoki te tiamana o to matou komiti, c noho nei i Poneke, hei mangai mo te tekau mano tangata kua haina nei i nga pitihana whakahe mo te Pire. Engari, kia mohio koutou, kaore nga tangata o toku takiwa i haina i nga pitihana turaki i te Pire. 304. Te Tiamana : A i haina ranei ratou i nga pitihana tautoko i te Pire ? Herepete Bapihana: Kaore ratou i haina pitihana, ahahoa hei tautoko hei whakahe ranei mo te Pire, te take: kahore he kape ote Pire i tae ake ki to matou takiwa iau i reira. 305. Te Tiamana : No to koutou mema tena wareware? Herepete Bapihana ; Ac ; no te Kawanatanga ano hoki. Ina hoki i karangatia etc Kawanatanga he hui mo era atu wahi ote motu nei, kaore i karangatia tetahi mo to matou nei pito. Ko te hui ki Waipatu te mea tuatahi, a i haria etc Kawanatanga nga kape ote Pire ki o reira wahi. Na reira ahau ka ki c rite tahi ana te he ote Kawanatanga me te he oto matou mema. I tae au ki hui ki Wairarapa, ka takoto ko te Pire nei hei mahi ka mahue nga mahi ake a te Kotahitanga. Ka tv atu au, ka ki atu au, c kore rawa au c whakaae kite Pire timata i tona upoko tae noa ki tona mutunga, notemea kaore rawa he kupu i tae ki toku iwi hei whakaatu atu ki a jatou mo te Pire. Tetahi o aku kupu kaore tenei Pire i tukua atu kite Kotahitanga, engari he mea whakatakoto noa iho kite aroaro o nga Maori ki waho ote Kotahitanga. Na, he maha nga tangata i tae ki taua hui, nga tane, nga wahine, nga tamariki, o nga iwi Maori o tenei pito o te Motu nei. Na, ka whakaaro au kotahi tonu au hei mangai mo te Tai Tokerau, ai te mea kaore ano toku iwi i kite noa i te Pire, na reira kaore au c tika hei whiriwhiri i te Pire, hei whakatikatika hei korero ranei mo te Pire. I taku taenga mai ki tenei kainga ka kite au ite Pire, a tukua atu ana c au he kape o taua mea ki toku iwi, a i au c noho nei i Poneke ka korerotia mai ki au kaore ratou i whakaae kite Pire tuatahi a te Pirimia tae atu ki nga menemana i mahia etc hui ki Papawai hei whakatikatika i taua Pire. I haere mai au ki konei kite tautoko i nga korero ate kai-whakahoki patai kua mutu ake nei. Kaore au c whakaae kite Pire c takoto nei, a kaore hoki au c .whakaae ki nga menemana i mahia nei c te Tai Rawhiti. He penei taku tono kite Komiti: me whakahau c koutou kia hikitia tenei Pire me te Pire a Henare Kaihau, me era atu Pire katoa epa ana ki nga mea Maori, kia tv te hui ki Waitangi. Kotahi tonu te mea o roto i te Pire a te Pirimia me nga menemana c taea c au te whakaae ko te rarangi c ki nei me whakamutu te hoko whenua. Engari kotahi tonu tena mea. Tenei ano etahi atu tikanga maha kei roto ite Pire c kore c taea c matou te whakaoti ki Poneke nei. Na reira ahau ka ki me hiki te Pire katoa kia tv te hui ki Waitangi, notemea hei huihuinga nui, whai tikanga hoki, tera no nga rangatira Maori katoa o nga wahi katoa ote Motu. Hei huihuinga whai mana tera, engari ko te ture kei te arai c kore ai c whai mana ana mahi. He tika ta nga mema ote Komiti c whakaatu mai nei, ara, kaore ite kotahi te whakaaro ote iwi Maori. He tika tena, engari c taea te pehea. He rite ano ratou ki nga Pakeha, he pera ano hoki te Pakeha i runga i etahi o ana mahi. Ko te Paremete tonu c noho nei tetahi tauira hei whakatika i tenei korero aku. Ina hoki c rua ona wahanga, he Apitihana tetahi he Kawanatanga tetahi, a me i kore te kaha o nga tangata kei a ratou te tikanga mo nga huarahi c whakahaerea ai nga mahi o te Paremete, tera pea c kino rawa atu nga whakahaere a nga taha c rua. I penei ai taku korero, kaore ano te Komiti o te Kotahitanga i whakawhiwhia ki tetahi ture hei whakamana i ana whakahaere, na reira ka ahei noa atu te tangata kite korero i tana i pai ai, na reira kaore c kore te pakaru o etahi o ratou ki waho. Na, he kupu tenei mo te mahi hoko whenua Maori kia whakamutua, i ki au he tikanga tika rawa tera i whakaurua kite Pire, engari na te nuinga atu o te Pire taua rarangi i whakakino. Xi taku mahara kite whakamutua te hoko whenua Maori katahi ka ta nga manawa o nga Maori i nga raruraru me nga mahi kino a nga

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roia Pakeha me era atu tangata nanakia o roto ite iwi Pakeha. Ko nga apiha hoko whenua ate Kawanatanga etahi tangata c tika ana kia whakahengia. Ina hoki, kite haere ratou kite hoko i tetahi poraka whenua a nga Maori, kaore c haere ana i te tuatahi ki nga tangata matau o roto i te poraka whakaatu atu ai ita ratou mahi; engari haere ke ai i te tuatahi ki nga koroheke me nga tangata kuare timata ai ite hoko, i uru ai he turanga waewae mo ratou. Katahi ka maro ta ratou mahi, a, kia pau katoa i a ratou nga hea o nga tangata kuare kaore nei i mohio kite tikanga ote mahi i mahia ra c ratou, kua ai te rironga atu o aua hea hei take korero ma aua apiha ki nga tangata c pupuri ana i o ratou hea, a penei ai ta ratou korero, "He aha te pai o te pupuri i o koutou hea ma hoki kua riro te nuinga o nga tangata ite hoko ? " Etc Tiamana, ehara taku c korero atu nei mo tenei tv mahi ite korero tara. He tika tonu, kua kite tonu au i taua mahi. Ko au tetahi tangata i pupuri tonu i toku hea i tetahi poraka a pau noa nga tangata katoa te hoko, a ko aku i korero ake nei nga korero a te apiha a te Kawanatanga i korero mai ai ki au kia hoko ai au. Na reira ahau ka ki, kite whakamutua te hoko a nga Maori i o ratou whenua, ka tino whiwhi te Maori ite ora mo ratou. Notemea he rite ano te Maori ki era atu iwi oteao ; he tangata ano he kuare, he tangata ano he porori ona whakaaro, a ko etahi he tangata matau, a ko etahi kaore i te mohio kite tikanga o a ratou mahi c mahi ana. Na reira kei te tino tautoko au i taua rarangi o te Pire. Engari kaua rawa c whakaaetia kia riro ma nga Poari c whakahaere nga whenua, notemea he maha nga raruraru c tupu ake ana i tenei mea ite mokete. Xi te moketetia te whenua, a kaore c taea te utu ote mokete, heoi ka riro te whenua. Na reira ki taku mahara he mea tika kia hoatu he taima hei whiriwhiringa ma nga Maori i etahi menemana whakatikatika ma ratou i te Pire. Xi taku me hiki nga mahi katoa mo te Pire kia tv ra ano te hui ki Waitangi. Koi nei ano taku kupu mo nga Pire katoa cpa ana kite iwi Maori kua whakaurua nei kite Paremete i tenei huihuinga ona : ara, rue hiki katoa kia tv ra ano taua hui. Mo te Pire a Henare Kaihau, kaore ahau ake c whakaae ki taua mea. Kaore ano taua Pire ana i whiriwhiria c nga iwi katoa. He tokoiti nga iwi c hiahia ana ki taua Pire. Na te iwi Maori katoa te hui ki Waitangi, ka tae ki reira nga mangai o nga iwi katoa o nga Motu c rua. Kua mutu aku korero. 306. Te Tiamana : I korero koe mo te mahi hoko whenua, i ki koe ko to hiahia me mutu rawa atu te hoko i nga whenua Maori ? Herepete Bapihana: Ac. 307. Te Tiamana: Kei te miharo au mo tena korero au, notemea he rereke rawa atu nga whenua o tou takiwa i nga whenua o era atu wahi ote koroni. Kaore koia koe ite mohio ki nga whenua nunui kei te takiwa ote Tai Tokerau c kore rawa c taea c nga Maori te mahi kite kai te noho ranei a runga, a kaore rawa nei c puta he painga ki a ratou i aua whenua? Herepete Bapihana : He pena etahi o nga whenua o reira. 308. Te Tiamana : Me pehea ki tau nga whenua pera te ahua ? Herepete Bapihana :Te take i pera ai taku korero, koia tenei: kite whakaaetia te hoko whenua ki tetahi wahi ote Motu c kore c taea te kati ki etahi atu wahi. Kei te mohio au he tino he rawa atu nga whenua o toku takiwa na reira ka iti noa iho te utu mo o reira whenua. 309. Te liamana: Kaore koia koe c mohio kite puritia aua whenua c nga Maori. Ka araia c tena te mahi whakanohonoho ite whenua kite tangata, ama tena c kore ai c tupu haere nga mahi katoa o taua takiwa ? Herepete Bapihana: Ac; heoi taku c mea ana me kati nga hoko me era atu mahi katoa kia tv ra ano te hui ki Waitangi, a kite kitea c taua hui me whakaoti he ritenga c tuwhera ai te hoko whenua, heoi ma ratou c mahi. 310. Te Tiamana : Kaore koe i te mohio he maha nga piihi ririki, tawhiti noa atu te takoto i nga wahi c nohoia ana cte tangata, kaore rawa nei c mahia ana kite kai c nohoia ana ranei c nga Maori, a he Pakeha anake nga tangata c noho ana i te taha o aua whenua ririki nei, ara, he 10 he 15 he 20 ranei nga eka o aua tv piihi whenua; me pehea ki tau aua tv whenua ? Herepete Bapihana : Me riihi. 311. Te Tiamana : Kaore ra c nihitia c te tangata ena tv whenua ririki? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore ano i mohiotia te tika o tena korero, 312. Te Tiamana : Kei te mohio ano koe kaore rawa he whai tikanga o aua tv whenua, heoi kei waenganui o nga piihi a nga Pakeha c takoto ana, na reira ka hokona c nga Pakeha kia kati ai nga rohe o a ratou whenua; me i kore nga Pakeha c piri ana ki nga taha, ka kore rawa atu he utu mo aua tv whenua? Herepete Bapihana : Ka mau tonu au ki taku whakaaro, ara, ko te mea tuatahi c pumau ai te ora kite iwi Maori me whakamutu te hoko whenua. 313. Te Tiamana : Kaati, ki tau me waiho noa iho aua poraka whenua kia takoto kau ana, kaua rawa c mahia kite kai a ake tonu atu ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore au i te ki me waiho noa iho aua whenua a kaua c mahia; c penei ke ana taku kaua c hokona. 314. Te Tiamana : Kaati, ki tau me riihi ? Xi to mahara ka riihitia ano etc Pakeha mo nga tau c rua tekau ma tahi nga whenua ngaherehere i waenganui o Mangonui me Hokianga, koia hoki tera te takiwa c noho nei koe ? Herepete Bapihana : Xi taku mahara ka riihitia ano. Kei te Pakeha te nuinga o taua takiwa i naianei. 315. Te Tiamana : Nga whenua i waenganui o Mangonui me Mangamuka? Herepete Bapihana : Kei te Pakeha nga wahi nunui o reira. 316. Te Tiamana : Xi to whakaaro ka riihitia ranei c te Pakeha nga whenua i te taha ki waho o Mangamuka? Herepete Bapihana : Kua oti etahi wahi o reira te riihi i naianei hei mahinga rakau. ' 317. Te Tiamana: Nga wahi anake ra pea c tupuria ana c te rakau; engari me pehea nga wahi parae i waho i nga ngaherehere ? Herepete Bapihana : Xi taku me waiho katoa ena mea ma te hui ki Waitangi c whakatau he

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tikanga, ma taua hui c whakatakoto he ritenga mo aua wahi. Engari i naianei tae noa kite ra etu ai taua hui, me tutaki te hoko i nga whenua Maori. 318. Te Tiamana : Xi tau i mohio ai mo era atu takiwa o Niu Tireni, kaore ranei koe c mohio ana he rereke te ahua me nga tikanga o nga whenua o te Tai Tokerau ki nga whenua o era atu takiwa o Niu Tireni, ara, mo te mahi kai me nga huarahi c taea ai te hari nga hua o te whenua ki nga makete i nga taone nunui ? Herepete Bapihana : Etc Tiamana, kei te rite tahi to taua mohio kaore nga Maori o toku takiwa c mahi nui ana ite whenua. He kari kapia to ratou tino oranga, aki te pau nga kapia te kari me nga whenua hoki te hokohoko atu me pehea ra he oranga mo ratou ? 319. Te Tiamana : Engari mehemea i nui nga whenua papai, c taea ana te mahi kite kai, kua kore nga Maori c whakawhirinaki tonu kite mahi kapia hei oranga mo ratou ? Herepete Bapihana: He tino motomoto etahi o nga whenua, engari he mangere nga Maori ki te mahi. Na te kari kapia i mangere ai. 320. Wi Pere : Ko te upoko o te Pire tau c hiahia ana kia paahitia, ara, ko te rarangi c mea nei me whakamutu te hoko whenua. Herepete Bapihana : Ac ; engari ko taku hiahia me whakamutu te hoko whenua i runga i te aronga o nga kupu ote pukapuka inoi i tukuna atu nei kite Kuini. 321. Wi Pere : A ko nga tikanga mo nga hoko me era atu mea, me waiho ena ma te hui ? Herepete Bapihana : Ac. 322. Henare Kaihau : Ka patai atu ahau ki a koe, kei te matau ranei koe. ki nga tikanga o te Pire c takoto nei ite aroaro ote Komiti. Kua korerotia ranei c koe ona kupu? Herepete Bapihana : Kua korerotia c au. 323. Henare Kaihau : Kei te pai koe kite Pire nei me ona tikanga-katoa? Herepete Bapihana : Kua ki atu nei hoki au kaore au ite pai kite Pire. 324. Henare Kaihau: E ki ana koe ko te wahi o te Pire c paingia ana c koe ko te wahi c whakarite nei i nga kupu ote pukapuka inoi i tukuna atu nei kite Kuini, ara, kia whakamutua te hoko whenua, a ko te nuinga atu o te Pire c mea ana koe me tuku atu ma te hui ki Waitangi c whiriwhiri ? Herepete Bapihana : Ac. 325. Henare Kaihau: Nau ake pea tena hiahia, c whakapuaki ana ranei koe i nga whakaaro o nga iwi nana koe i tuku mai ki konei. Herepete Bapihana : Kua ki atu ano au, naku ake tenei whakaaro. 326. Henare Kaihau : Ka pena ranei me tau te whakaaro o te mema mo te Tai Tokerau, ara, me tuku atu te Pire kite hui ka tv nei ki Waitangi ate marama o Maehe c haere ake nei, ki reira whiriwhiria ai ? Herepete Bapihana : Xi taku mahara kei te penei tana me taku, notemea, c ai ki ta nga pukapuka o reira c tae mai ana ki au, kaore nga iwi o reira i te pai ki tenei Pire. Na reira ahau ka mahara me tuku atu tenei Pire ki taua hui, a ki reira korerotia ai c ratou. 327. Henare Kaihau . Ehara tena i te utu ki taku patai. Ko taku c hiahia ana kia mohio au kei te rite ranei ki tau te whakaaro o te mema mo te Tai Tokerau : ara, kia haria te Pire kite hui ki Waitangi, ki reira korerotia ai; kei te mohio ranei koe ki ona whakaaro mo tenei mea ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore au ite mohio. Naku tena whakaaro kia haria te Pire kite hui ki Waitangi. 328. Henare Kaihau: E ki ana te Pire me whakatu he Poari, me Pakeha me Maori ona mema, ama taua Poari c whakahaere nga whenua Maori: c pehea ana to whakaaro mo te kupu nei me Pakeha etahi me Maori etahi o ona mema? Herepete Bapihana : E mea ana koe kia korerotia atu c au taku ake whakaaro. 329. Henare Kaihau : Ac? Herepete Bapihana : Xi taku whakaaro me Maori anake nga mema o te Poari. 330. Henare Kaihau : Kaua he Pakeha ? Herepete Bapihana : Kauaka; ki taku whakaaro kaua he Pakeha. 331. E mea ana koe me whakahaere c ratou a ratou mahi i raro i nga ture a te Kuini i raro ranei i a ratou ake ture i hanga ai ? Herepete Bapihana : Ko taku hiahia me whakakaere nga mahi i runga i nga ture ; kaua ratou c takahi i nga ture o te koroni. 332. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, mehemea c hiahia ana koe kia kaua nga ture a c takahia, kaore ha me uru he Pakeha kite Poari ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore au c pai kia taupatupatu nga ture. 333. Henare Kaihau: Ka pehea tau whakatakoto tikanga c kore ai c takahia nga ture ate Kuini. Herepete Bapihana : Kaore au c kaha kite utu i tena patai. Kaore ano ahau i tahuri kite mahi i tena. Kaore ano i whakaarohia eau taku huarahi c whakatakoto ai mo tena. Kaore c taea c au te utu ohorere atu i tena patai. 334. Henare Kaihau : Kaore c taea c koe te utu mai o taku patai ? Ka hia nga tau c hurihuria ana tenei mea i kore ai koe c kaha kite whakahoki mai i taku patai ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore au ite mohio kite tikanga ote patai, mo tau ake Pire ranei, mo te aha ranei. 335. Henare Kaihau : E penei anate tikanga o taku patai: Iki koe kaore te Pire ate Pirimia e-takoto nei i haria kia kite nga huihuinga o nga iwi nunui o tenei koroni, a c mea ana au kia mohio au kinga whakaaro o nga iwi nunui o te koroni i korerotia ake nei c koe. Herepete Bapihana : Xi taku whakaaro kaore i pena taku korero. I penei taku, kaore taua Pire i tae ki nga huihuinga i tv i nga iwi nunui o te koroni. 336. Henare Kaihau: Xi te kore koe c kaha kite utu ite patai, kaati, hei aha, c kore c tohea eau. He patai ano tenei, engari i patairia ano ki aTe Heuheu, na reira c kore pea te Tiamana c pai kia via ano c au, otira ehara i te patai roa rawa.

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Te Tiamana : He pehea tena patai ? 337. Henare Kaihau: Ikia Te Heuheu he torutoru nei nga wahi ote Motu i tae ai te Pire a te Pirimia, a kaore rawa i takoto kite aroaro o te Kotahitanga. Eki anatenei kai-whakahoki patai kaore rawa te Pire i tae ki tona takiwa ? Herepete Bapihana : Me whakamarama eau taku i korero ai. I penei taku korero, c toru riga wahanga o tenei Motu —ko te takiwa pooti o te Tai Eawhiti, ko te takiwa pooti o te Tai Hauauru, a ko te takiwa pooti kite Tai Tokerau, a i penei taku, i haria haeretia te Pire ki nga takiwa pooti o te Tai Eawhiti me te Tai Hauauru engari kaore i haria kite Tai Tokerau. 338. Henare Kaihau.: A, kaati, c penei ana tau kaore ano tenei Pire i whiriwhiria c te Kotahitanga ? Herepete Bapihana: Ac. Te Tiamana : I pena ano hoki taku i mohio ai, ara, kaore ano nga Maori o te Tai Tokerau i kite i te Pire—ara, kaore ano i tuhaina ki reira. 339. Henare Kaihau : E mea ana ahau kia utua mai c te kai-whakahoki patai taku patai, ara, mehemea c penei ana tana, kaore ano tenei Pire i takoto kite aroaro o nga huihuinga o te Kotahitanga o nga iwi ranei o te Kotahitanga ? Herepete Bapihana: I penei taku : i takoto te Pire kite aroaro ote Kotahitanga ki Papawai, engari kaore i whakatakotoria kite aroaro o taua hunga i runga i nga tikanga o ona ture whakahaere. Na reira iki ai ahau kaore au c whakaae kite Pire, notemea kaore i whakahaerea taua mea i runga i nga tikanga o taua hunga. 340. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana; ko te tikanga o ena kupa au he whakaae nau i takoto ano te Pire kite aroaro o tetahi huihuinga o te Kotahitanga, a i kite katoa nga mema o te Kotahitanga i taua mea ? Herepete Bapihana: Ac. 341. Henare Kaihau : Me whakapoto ake eau taku korero ki a koe. Kaati ha, c penei ana, i rite te whakaaro o te Kotahitanga katoa ki to te kai-whakahoki patai kua mutu ake nei, ara, ki to te Te Heuheu, ki ta to ratou tiamana, ko ia hoki te tiamana o te Komiti o te Kotahitanga ? Herepete Bapihana : I te timatanga o aku korero kite Komiti nei i ki atu au kei te whakaae au ki nga korero katoa a Te Heuheu—ara, ki tana whai korero i whakapuaki ai i te timatanga o ana korero. Engari kei au ano toku whakaaro mo ana whakahoki mo nga patai i via ki a ia i muri iho. 342. Henare Kaihau : Pehea ai tau whakamarama i te tikanga o tenei kupu " Kotahitanga " ? He aha tona tikanga ? Herepete Bapihana : Tona tikanga he whakatopu, ara, he whakakotahi i nga iwi Maori i raro i te Tiriti o Waitangi. 343. Henare Kaihau : I nga iwi koia i haina ite tiriti; koi rate tikanga o tau c mea na ? Herepete Bapihana: Ac; me etahi atu iwi hoki kaore i haina ite tiriti kua uru nei kite Kotahitanga. 344. Henare Kaihau: E penei ana a Earangi 3 o taua tiriti : " Hei wakaritenga mai hoki tenei mo te wakaaetanga kite Kawanatanga ote Kuini. Ka tiakina etc Kuini o Ingarani nga tangata Maori katoa oNu Tireni. Ka tukua ki a ratou nga tikanga katoa rite tahi ki ana mea ki nga tangata o Ingarani." I runga i tau c kawe na, c pehea ana te ahua o enei kupu? Me pehea c rite ai i aua kupu tau c hiahia na : me hoatu koia he mana motuhake kite Maori kia ahei ai ia ki te hanga ture whahahaere mona me pehea ranei ? Herepete Bapihana: E penei ana taku i whakaaro ai: Mehemea ka whakaaetia he mana mo te Eunanga Maori mo tetahi atu hunga Maori ranei he pai pea kia peratia, engari kaua c ture ke mo ratou c ture ke mo nga Pakeha. Koi nei taku. E noho nei tatou he ture ano mo te Maori he ture ano mo te Pakeha. Kaore ano i kotahi te ture mo nga iwi c rua. Ko nga ture epa ana ki nga vvhenua Maori kaore c rite ana ki nga ture c pa ana ki nga whenua Pakeha, a ki taku mahara koia tera te mahi tika ma te hui ka tv nei ki "Waitangi he tahuri kite whakakotahi i nga ture mo nga iwi c rua. 345. Henare Kaihau : Engari kite tv taua hui ki Waitangi a kite korerotia c taua hui enei take katoa, me pehea c mohio ai tenei Komiti te Paremete ranei o Niu Tireni, tera c oti he tikanga i taua hui. Herepete Bapihana : Xi taku whakaaro he marama taku tono kite Komiti. Kua ki atu au, ata waiho enei take katoa kia tv te hui ki Waitangi, a kia mutu taua hui ka kite tatou i tana kupu c tuku mai ai kite Komiti nei. 346. Henare Kaihau : Kaore c utua maramatia mai ana aku patai. Tena, he piri pono a Ngapuhi kite Kuini. Herepete Bapihana: Xi taku whakaaro he iwi piri pono ratou ki ate Kuini. 347. Henare Kaihau: Kaore ranei to iwi i uru ki nga mahi i whakahaerea c nga Maori hei pupuri i nga whenua, nana nei i ara ai te whawhai ki etahi wahi o tenei Motu ? Me ki mai c koe, ac, kaore ranei, aki te kore koe c pai kite utu mai i te patai mau eki mai. Kei te mohio ano hoki koe ? Herepete Bapihana : Xi taku whakaaro i haere tonu a Ngapuhi i raro i te mana o te Tiriti o Waitangi. 348. Henare Kaihau: Te tikanga o tena whakahoki mai c penei ana, kaore ratou i uru ki nga whakahaere c korerotia nei c au—ehara taku i te hopu i a koe mo etahi o korero ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore aui te marama kite take i via ai tena patai c koe. Xi taku mahara i uru ano ratou. 349. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, i nga whawhai katoa timata i te tau 1842 tae noa kite tau 1863—c penei ana tau—kaore a Ngapuhi i uru ki aua whawhai? Herepete Bapihana : Xi taku mahara. 350. Henare Kaihau : I te mea c mohio ana ano koe, he aha i pena ai to whakahoki, " Xi taku mahara " ? He aha te pai o te whakatitaha i te utu kite patai, c mohio noa atu nei koe 6—l. 3a.

L— 3a

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kite utu tika mo tena patai ? Kei te mataku koe ; engari kaore au ite mohio kite take i wehi ai koe ? Herepete Bapihana: Kaore au ite mohio ki ena mea. He tamariki au i taua wa. 351. Henare Kaihau : He tamariki rawa ahau i a koe, a kei te mohio au ki aua mahi. Herepete Bapihana : E tika ana; engari c kore au c ahei te ki kei te tika tau c mohio na. 352. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i te ki kei te tika taku. Kei te patai atu au ki a koe i tau i rongo ai mo aua mahi. Kia mohio te Komiti kaore au ite whai kia raruraru nga whakaaro ote kai-whakahoki patai, kia whakatakariri ranei ia. Kei te kite au ka nui tona raruraru i taku patai. Me .whakamarama atu eauki a ia i naianei. Kei te mohio koe, ite mutunga iho o nga whawhai a nga iwi c rua c noho nei i tenei Motu, mahia ana c nga kai-whaka-haere me nga apiha a te Kuini etahi mahi? Herepete Bapihana : Ac ; kua rongo au i pena. Kei te mohio au ki tena. 353. Henare Kaihau: A ko nga tikanga whakahaere i paahitia, a ko nga mea i mahia, c nga kai-whakahaere a te Kuini me nga apiha a te Kawanatanga kaore rawa i takahia c to iwi, a c piri tonu nei to iwi kite Tiriti o Waitangi; c penei ana tau ? Herepete Bapihana: Ac. 354. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana. Tena, me penei taku patai : Mehemea c pena ana te ahua, me tau c ki na, a i hapai tonu to iwi i te Tiriti o Waitangi, me te mana tonu i a ratou o nga ture i mahia c nga kai-whakahaere a te Kuini me nga Apiha a te Kawanatanga i tenei koroni, me to ratou taka ki raro i te Paremete o tenei koroni, me pehea c koe, c tika ai to whakaara i naianei i tetahi mana motuhake hei whakahaere ite iwi Maori ? Ite mea kua tukua atu ou take katoa, ou mana katoa, tou kingitanga, me era atu mea katoa, ki a te Kuini, a i te mea kua whakamanaia c te Kuini ana kai-whakahaere me te Kawanatanga hoki kite whakahaere i nga mahi o tenei whenua, a kite whakatu i tetahi Paremete mo tenei whenua, me te hapai tonu o tou iwi i te ture, me pehea c koutou te pakaru ki waho i naianei kite whakatu i te Kotahitanga? Herepete Bapihana : Kia roa au c utu ana i tena patai, otira ki taku titiro ehara tena i te patai. Ko tau tena i hanga ai mo aku korero i korero ai. Kaore hoki nga mahi katoa a nga Pakeha me nga Maori i haere i runga i te Tiriti o Waitangi. 355. Henare Kaihau: Kaore au i te pai ki tena utu mai. Eki ana koe itewa o te whawhai ki tenei whenua i piri pono tou iwi kite Kuini me ona ture ; a me to koutou mau tonu kite Tiriti o Waitangi, a ko nga ture i mahia c nga kai-whakahaere a te Kuini i tenei whenua nga mea nana koutou i arahi; ame pehea c koe te ki i naianei, " Kua kore matou c piri pono kite Kuini, c hiahia ana matou kite whakatu i te Kotahitanga? " Herepete Bapihana : Xi taku kaore kau he he o te Kotahitanga. Kaore rawa ia ite taupatupatu ki nga tikanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi, notemea na taua tiriti i whakapumau nga mana o toku iwi ki a ratou, a ko to ratou hiahia he hapai i aua mana kei ngaro. 356. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au ite korero mo te Tiriti o Waitangi. Ko taku iuiai ki a koe, i pehea tou iwi itewa i ara ai te whawhai i waenganui i nga iwi c rua. Ko etahi tangata i pupuri i o ratou whenua, a whawhaitia ana c te Kawanatanga, a karangatia ana ratou he hauhau ; i huri koe ki to ratou nei taha i piri pono tonu ranei koe kite Kuini ? Koia tena te patai i via atu eau ki a koe, a ki ana mai koe i piri pono tonu koe kite Kuini, a i naianei kua mea koe kite whakaara i tetahi tikanga hou, a tapa iho c koe tona ingoa ko te Kotahitanga; he aha te take i penei ai ? Herepete Bapihana : E penei ana taku, ko te hiahia o nga Maori kia ata whakaarohia etahi tikanga me etahi whakahaere, he mahara tera pea c taea te whakariterite aua mea i waenganui o nga iwi c rua i runga ano i nga tikanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi.

Tueei, 11 Oketopa, 1898. Heeepete Rapihana : ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 357. Henare Kaihau : I a koe c noho nei i Poneke c tv ana koe hei mema mo te komiti Maori i tukua mai c nga iwi o te Motu nei hei mangai mo ratou hei uiui hei whiriwhiri i nga tikanga i uru ki roto kite Pire c takoto nei ? Herepete Bapihana : Ac; ko au tetahi o nga mema o taua komiti. 358. Henare Kaihau : He tiamana ano to taua komiti ? Herepete Bapihana : Ac ;ka rua nga tiamana. Kotahi no te tuatahi, no tona haerenga whakaturia ana he tiamana ano hei whakakapi i tona turanga. 359. Henare Kaihau : Ko wai te rua o nga tiamana. Herepete Rapihana : Ko Te Heuheu 360. Henare Kaihau : I rongo ranei koe i nga korero a te tiamana tuarua o taua komiti i korero ai ite aroaro o tenei Komiti, c whakahe ana kite Pire c whiriwhiria nei ? Herepete Rapihana : Ac. 361. Henare Kaihau : Kua tuhituhia katoatia ana korero i korero ai, c pehea ana o whakaaro mo aua korero ? Herepete Bapihana : E whakatika ana au i ana korero mo te Pire nei, engari kaore au i te tautoko i ana whakahoki ki nga patai; ara, ki toku whakaaro kaore c kitea i runga i ana whakahoki patai he huarahi c oti ai tenei take uaua. 362. Henare Kaihau: Ko te hea wahi o ana whakahoki patai tau c whakahe ana —ki tau whakaaro, he aha te he o ana whakahoki patai. Herepete Bapihana : He maha ana kupu i korero ai i runga i tana utunga i nga patai kaore c taea c au te tautoko. 363. Henare Kaihau :Me korero c koe kite Komiti nga wahi o ana korero cki nei koe kaore c taea c koe te whakaae. Te Tiamana : Xi taku whakaaro kaore he tikanga c whaia ai nga wahi katoa o nga korero a te kai-whakahoki patai o mua atu i tenei. Mehemea koi na he mahi ma ia kai-whakahoki patai, he korero

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mai i nga wahi o nga korero a tetahi kai-whakahoki patai c whakaaetia ana c ia me nga wahi kaore i te whakaaetia c ia, kite pera, c kore rawa c mutu i a tatou te mahi nei. Ko te mea c hiahiatia ana c tatou ko nga whakaaro o te kai-whakahoki patai mo te Pire nei, kaore tatou i te hiahia ki ona whakaaro mo nga korero a etahi atu kai-whakahoki patai. Henare Kaihau : Xi te whakahe te Tiamana ki taku patai, kaati, c kore c patairia c au, engari, ki taku, kaore c pai kia tohu patai noa iho tatou, heoi hoki te utu mai ki ena tv patai he " Ac " he " No " ranei Te Tiamana : Ko te mea hei whai mau ko tona ake whakaaro mo te Pire, a mana ano c whakamarama haere ana utu ki nga patai i runga i tana huarahi i kite ai, kaore he tikanga c via ai c koe tana whakaaro mo nga korero a tetahi atu kai-whakahoki patai. 364. Henare Kaihau: E pai ana, c kore c patairia c au te patai. (Xi te kai-whakahoki patai tenei) : I korero koe i tahi ra ake nei, ki to whakaaro ko te rarangi c tutaki nei i te hoko whenua te mea nui rawa i uru ki roto kite Pire ; c pera ana tau ? Herepete Bapihana : Ac 365. Henare Kaihau : Ko te hiahia tena o nga iwi katoa, kia tino whakatutukitia taua tikanga : ara, me tino whakamutu rawa te hoko i nga whenua Maori ? Herepete Bapihana : Ac, koi na te hiahia o katoa. Koia tena te tino kupu i roto ite pukapuka inoi i tukuna atu nei kite Kuini. 366. Henare Kaihau : I patai atu te Tiamana ki a koe i te Paraire kua hori ake nei mo nga whenua kikino, kore utu, ara, iti rawa te utu, o tou takiwa, a ki taku mohio atu ki to whakahoki i te patai, i penei, kia tv te hui ki Pei Whairangi ia Maehe c haere ake nei ma taua hui c whakatau me hoko ranei etahi o nga whenua me pehea ranei. I penei pea to kupu tera taua hui ki Waitangi c whakaae kia hokona nga whenua kikino o tou takiwa. I pera ranei to kupu kaore ranei ? Herepete Rapihana : Kaore. Xi taku mahara i penei taku kupu :ma te hui c whakatau he tikanga c riihitia ai aua whenua. 367. Henare Kaihau,: Ac ra ; engari i patai au mo te hoko ? Herepete Rapihana : Xi taku mahara kaore au i korero mo tena. Te Tiamana : I penei te utu mai a te kai-whakahoki patai i tetahi o aku patai i patai ai ki a ia i te Paraire, ki tana me riihi aua whenua, kaua c hokona. Koia enei ana kupu: "Xi taku whakaaro, te mea tuatahi c pumau ai te ora kite iwi Maori me whakamutu te hoko whenua." Henare Kaihau : Ac ; engari ki taku mahara kei muri iho i tena. Te Tiamana : Katahi ka patairia ano c au, " Kaati ki tau me waiho noa iho aua poraka whenua kia takoto kau ana, kaua rawa c mahia kite kai a ake tonu atu ? " I penei tana utu, " Kaore au iteki me waiho noa iho aua whenua a kaua c mahia; c penei ana taku kaua c hokona." A muri iho i tera ka korero mai ano ia, ka mea, "Xi taku me waiho katoa ena mea ma te hui ki Waitaugi c whakatau he tikanga, ma taua hui c whakatakoto he ritenga mo aua wahi. Engari i naianei tae noa kite ra etu ai taua hui, me tutaki te hoko i nga whenua Maori." Haere tonu ana korero me riihi nga whenua kaua c hokona. Mo te patai a Wi Pere, ara, "Ko te upoko o te Pire tau c hiahia ana Ida paahitia, ara, ko te rarangi c mea-nei me whakamutu te hoko whenua?" i penei te whakahoki, " Ac ; engari ko taku hiahia me whakamutu te hoko whenua i runga i te aronga o nga kupu ote pukapuka inoi i tukuna atu nei kite Kuini." 368. Henare Kaihau : A kaati, he pehea te whakaaro mo tenei Pire ? Me whakaoti he tikanga mona i naianei, me nuku ranei mo tetahi atu wa ka hurihuri ai, ara, me patu atu ranei i naianei kia kore atu kaua ranei ? Herepete Bapihana : Kua utua ano eau tena patai i mua ra. Kua ki au heoi taku c hiahia ana kia oti i tenei tau ko nga hoko whenua kia whakamutua, a ko era atu mea katoa me waiho ena ma te hui ki Waitangi c whakatau. 369. Henare Kaihau: E mea ana koe kia tukua atu tenei Pire kite hui ki Waitangi ma taua hui c whiriwhiri ? Herepete Rapihana : Ac; engari me paahi c tatou te rarangi c whakamutu rawa nei ite hoko whenua Maori. 370. Henare Kaihau :E ki ana koe ko to hiahia me tuku atu tenei Pire kite hui ki Waitangi, ama taua hui c whakatau he tikanga mona; kei te rite katoa ranei nga whakaaro oto koutou komiti mo tena hiahia ou ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore au c tika hei whakahoki i tena patai. He maha nga mema oto matou komiti c noho nei, ma ia tangata o ratou c korero atu ona whakaaro mo tena patai. 371. Henare Kaihau : Iki koe i naia tonu nei he mema koe no te komiti Maori: E patai atu ana ahau ki a koe, mehemea ranei ko tau i korero ake na te whakaaro o taua komiti. Kua tau ranei i taua komiti he whakaaro ma ratou mo te Pire nei ? Herepete Rapihana :Xi taku mohio kite tirohia cte kai-patai nga pitihana i tukua mai nei hei turaki i te Pire kei reira te utu mo tana patai. 372. Henare Kaihau : Ehara tena ite utu ki taku patai. Ko taku c whai ana kia mohio au kei te korero ranei koe i au ake whakaaro kei te korero ranei koe i runga i to tuunga hei mema mo taua komiti ? Te Tiamana : Tena pea ehara ia i te tangata i whakamanaia hei mangai mo te komiti. Henare Kaihau : He putake whanui rawa tena. E patai ana ahau mehemea kei te hiahia katoa te komiti Maori kia tukua tenei Pire ma te hui ki Waitangi c. whiriwhiri. Te Tiamana : Tena pea kaore ia ite kaha kite whakapuaki i nga whakaaro o taua komiti, heoi tana c kaha kite korero atu ki a koe ko tona ake whakaaro. Henare Kaihau : Xi taku mohio he mema ia no tetahi komiti a kua tau i taua komiti tana kupu, a kite kore c- whakahokia cia te patai mo te kupu i tau ra ite komiti he aha te pai ona kia haere mai ki konei korero ai ? Te Tiamana : Tena pea kaore <mo nga whakatau a taua komiti i ripoatatia, na reira pea kaore c tika mana c utu atu to patai. Herepete Bapihana : He pai pea kia korero atu au c rua nga mea i whakataua c matou. I penei

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ta te komiti: ko te wahi o te Pire c whakaae nei kia whakamutua katoatia nga hoko whenua Maori me paahi tera i naianei hei ture, engari ko te nuinga o te Pire c pa nei ki etahi atu mea me nuku kia tv ra ano te hui ki Waitangi, a ma taua hui c whakatau he tikanga. 373. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ranei koe i rongo i te whakahoki a Te Heuheu mo tetahi patai rite tonu ki tena i patairia eau ? Iki mai ia ko tona hiahia me patu rawa atu te pire kia mate atu kaua c nukuhia, c ahatia atu ranei, a ite mea ko ia te tiamana o te komiti c tv nei koe hei mema, ki to mahara kei te tika ranei tana korero, i mohio ranei ia ki ta te komiti i whakatau ai ? Herepete Bapihana: Ac ; engari c rua nga kupu aTe Heuheu. Tana kupu tuatahi, me patu rawa atu te Pire, a ko tetahi o ana kupu me nuku kia tv te hui ki Waitangi. 374. Henare Kaihau : Xi taku mohio atu ki nga korero a Te Heuheu, i penei na, ko to ratou hiahia me patu te Pire kia mate rawa —-kia takoto tiraha rawa, a kaore ratou i te hiahia kia tukuna atu ma te hui ki Waitangi c whiriwhiri. Kaore koia i penei ana korero i konei ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore au ite mohio. Kua ki atu ano nei hoki au i au c patairia nei etc Komiti nei ko aku ake whakaaro aku c korero atu kite Komiti nei, a kite kore c rite aku korero ki a Te Heuheu, i pena ai, kei te korero ia i ana whakaaro a kei te korero au i aku. 375. Henare Kaihau : A kaati, nau ake enei whakaaro c korerotia nei c koe, kaore koe i te tv hei mangai mo tetahi iwi? Herepete Bapihana : Kei te korero atu au i te hiahia o Ngapuhi i au c ki atu nei me nuku te Pire kia tv te hui ki Waitangi. Kaore au c kaha kite korero mo etahi atu iwi ote Motu nei. Engari kua rongo au tenei ano etahi pitihana a era atu iwi ote Motu nei kua tae mai kite Paremete mo te Pire te take. 376. Henare Kaihau : He pehea nga korero ? Herepete Bapihana : Xi te kore te Pire c taea te turaki i naianei kaati me nuku atu mo tera tau. 377. Henare Kaihau : E penei ana tau kite patua te Pire i naianei me nuku atu mo tera tau. Herepete Bapihana : Ac. 378. Henare Kaihau: Eki ana koe ko te hiahia ote iwi kite patua te Pire me tuku atu kia whiriwhiria etc hui ki Waitangi; c pera ana tau ? Herepete Bapihana : E penei ana taku koi na te hiahia o toku iwi, o Ngapuhi; engari, kua rongo au, ko nga iwi o etahi atu wahi ote Motu kei te hiahia me nuku te Pire ki tera tau. Ko to Ngapuhi hiahia me nuku te Pire kia tv te hui ki Waitangi, a kua rongo ano te kai-patai i tenei kupu aku i mua ra. 379. Henare Kaihau : E patai ana ahau mehemea kei roto ena korero i nga pitihana kua tae mai nei ? I kite ranei koe i tetahi pitihana c pena ana ona korero ? Herepete Rapihana : Mehemea c hiahia ana te kai-patai kia kite ia i nga korero o roto i nga pitihana, mana c kimi nga pitihana c titiro nga korero o roto. Te Tiamana : Xi taku whakaaro heoi ano nga mea c taea c te kai-whakahoki patai te whakaatu ko ona ake whakaaro tae atu ki nga whakaaro o Ngapuhi, o te iwi nana ia i tuku mai ki konei hei mangai mo ratou. Henare Kaihau : Ac ra ; engari kua hipa atu tana i tena. Kua ki ia, koia tera te hiahia o Ngapuhi, engari ko nga iwi ote pito whaka-runga nei kei te hiahia ki tetahi atu mea. Xi taku, kua korerotia hoki c au nga pitihana, kaore rawa he tangata kotahi i roto i te tekau mano c whakahe nei i tenei Pire i tono kia nukuhia te Pire kite hui ki Waitangi. Te Ti'imana : Nou pea tena pohehe. Ka tuaruatia ano tfku kupu, ko ta tatou c hiahia ana kia puakina mai c ia ko tona ake whakaaro me to Ngapuhi mo tenei Pire, ko ia hoki te mangai mo taua iwi. Ko nga pitihana, waiho ake ena, ma aua mea ano c whakaatu ake nga korero o roto i a ratou, ma taea te ra c whiriwhiria ai aua mea. Henare Kaihau : Ac ; engari c hiahia ana au kia tino marama nana ake ona whakaaro, kaua c kiia na te iwi aua whakaaro c korerotia nei c ia. Kaore au c pai kia whakapaea na etahi atu iwi ana korero Kaore au c pai kia kiia na etahi iwi aua whakaaro, ite mea ehara i a ratou. Herepete Rapihana : Kua ki atu nei hoki au kite kai-patai tenei ano nga tangata kei roto i te ruma nei c noho ana hei mangai mo etahi atu iwi i w r aho atu i toku, a he mema katoa ratou no te Komiti Maori, mana c patai atu ki a ratou ma tv ratou kite korero kite Komiti, ma tera pea c tino marama ai ia. Henare Kaihau : E tika ana ; engari kaore au c ahei kite patai atu ki ena kai-whakahoki patai ma tv mai mo nga mea c pa ana ki tenei kai-whakahoki patai. Na reira au i patai ai ki tenei kaiwhakahoki patai. Otira, ki taku mahara kaore kau he huanga ote patai atu ki aia i enei patai, notemea mehemea nei kaore ia i te mohio. Na reira, pea, me tuku atu c au ma tetahi atu c whakamutu nga patai ki tenei kai-whakahoki patai. Tena c pau i au te rua ra, te maha atu ranei, c patai ana ia ia mehemea ka whakamenea atu eau aku patai c takoto oti nei mona. E hiahia ana au kia tino marama te takoto o tenei mea, koia tenei te take : Xi taku kaore ano i tino tau i nga iwi Maori o tenei Motu te huarahi c whakahaerea ai c ratou tenei mea. E ki ana etahi kua kitea c ratou he huarahi c oti ai tenei mea uaua, c mea ana etahi, " Kaore, kei te he ta koutou ; kei a matou ke te huarahi c taea ai." Na reira an i hiahia ai kia tino kitea nga whakaaro o ia takiwa i tuku mangai mai mo ratou ki konei hei mema mo te Komiti Maori c whakahaere nei i tenei mea. Te Tiamana : Kua mahamaha noa iho nga korerotanga mai a tenei kai-whakahoki patai kite Komiti i ana ake whakaaro, i nga w'hakaaro hoki o te Iwi o Ngapuhi: ara, me nuku tenei putake katoa kia tv te hui ki Waitangi, ki reira korerotia ai. Henare Kaihau : He tika tonu tena, i pena ia, engari i ia penatanga mai ana kaore c kore ana tana apiti mai hoki i nga ingoa o nga iwi o waho i a Ngapuhi. Te Tiamana: Tenei ano ra etahi kai-whakahoki patai kei muri, ama ratou c korero te taha ki o ratou nei iwi. Henare Kaihau : He mea noku kei mahue tenei ahua o ana korero: ara, ehara ite mea i korero ia mo nga hiahia anake o tona iwi engari kua huia atu hoki c ia ki roto ki tana korero nga iwi o waho atu i tona, me tana ki mai he rite tahi o ratou whakaaro. Kei kiia a muri ko ia te mangai o etahi iwi

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o waho atu i tona ake iwi. Kei waiho pera, a, atewa c whiriwhiria ai te Pire, kei kiia na te iwi katoa ana korero i korero ai. Te Tiamana: He patai ano au kei te toe. Henare Kaihau : Kaore kau. Kua pouri rawa au i te mahi ate Tiamana c whakararuraru tonu nei i aku patai na.reira kua mea au kaore kau he tikanga c haere tonu ai aku patai. Te Tiamana : Ka nui hoki toku pouri mo te paanga o te pouri ki a koe, engari rnehemea i waiho tonu i tau huarahi whakahaere patai c kore rawa c oti i a tatou te mahi nei. 380. Te Maka : He aha te take i nui rawa ai to whakaaro mo te hui ka tv nei ki Waitangi ? Herepete Bapihana : Ko te take, tera c tv he hui nui rawa atu ki reira i runga i nga mahi a te Kotahitanga. 381. Te Maka : Te ingoa c whakahuatia na c koe, te " Kotahitanga," c pa ana tena kupu kite Motu katoa kite pito anake ranei whaka-raro, ara, ki a Ngapuhi ? Herepete Bapihana :Ko te tikanga ra, me uru nga iwi katoa o nga Motu c rua kite Kotahitanga, engari tenei ano etahi iwi kaore c whakaae kia uru ratou ki roto. Henare Kaihau: Etc Tiamana, c mea ana ahau kia whakaatu mai te kai-whakahoki patai tera ano etahi iwi kei etahi wahi ote Motu nei kaore ite uru kite Kotahitanga. Te Tiamana : Ma Te Maka pea c tono atu kite kai-whakahoki patai kia whakamaramatia mai tena. 382. Te Maka : Ko wai ma nga rangatira nama i karanga te hui ki Waitangi ? Herepete Bapihana : Na nga kai-whakahaere o te Kotahitanga. 383. Te Maka : Kei hea ena tangata c noho ana nana i karanga tena hui ? Herepete Rapihana : Kei te Tai Hauauru etahi, kei teTai Rawhiti etahi, a kei te takiwa o Ngapuhi etahi. 384. Te Maka : Korerotia mai etahi o nga ingoa o ena rangatira? Herepete Bapihana : Ko Te Heuheu tetahi, ko au tetahi, ko Timi Waata Rimini to Te Arawa, ko Hone Paerata to te Tai Rawhiti, ko Taare Tikao to Te Waipounamu, ko Raniera' raua ko Pene Taui o Ngapuhi, a ko Hamiora Mangakahia to te takiwa o Hauraki. 385. Te Maka : Ko wai te tangata nana i ki me tv te hui ki Waitangi ? Tena ano pea he hekeretari to koutou i runga i tenei tv mahi; ko wai to koutou hekeretari ? Herepete Bapihana : Ko Pene Taui te tino tangata nana taua karanga i te hui ki Waitangi. 386. Te Maka : I uru ranei a Hone Heke, to kotou mema, ki tena karanga hui ki Waitangi ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore; notemea na matou ke i whakariterite te karanga mo taua hui, i whakaritoritea ki konei i muri iho i te hui ki Papawai 387. Te Maka : Mehemea kei te nui rawa te hiahia o nga rangatira o Ngapuhi ki tena whakahaere, he aha te take i kore ai c tukua mai c ratou ko Hone Heke hei mangai mo ratou ki konei, i tuku ke mai ai i a koe, i te tangata tauhou, hei whakapuaki i a ratou korero mo tenei take nui c pa nei kite iwi katoa ? Herepete Bapihana: Tena pea ko etahi o nga mema o tenei Paremete kei te pupuri i a Hone Heke kia noho atu. Kaore au ite mohio kite take. 388. Te Maka : E penei aua koia tau ko koutou anake kei te whakatakoto tikanga mo tenei hui a kaore to koutou mema i roto i te Paremete i te uru ki ta koutou mahi. Herepete Bapihana : Mo te hea mea ? 389. Te Maka : Mo te hui ka tv nei ki Waitangi ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore au ite mohio. I taku taenga ki reira kaore au i kite i a Hone Heke. Tae rawa atu au kua riro ia ; engari i tae mai nga reta a Pene Taui ki a matou. 390. Te Maka : Ko tona ritenga ko Hone Heke te tangata tika hei whakapuaki i nga whakaaro o Ngapuhi. Te Take o tenei patai aku, he hiahia noku kia mohio au kite take i kore ai c riro ma to koutou mema o te Paremete c tautoko tenei karanga hui, i te mea ko ia ke te tangata c tika ana kia mohio ki nga hiahia ote iwi katoa o Ngapuhi, he mea hoki noku kia mohio au kite take i kowhiria ai ko koe hei mangai mo ratou ki konei a i ngaro atu ai to ratou mema o te Paremete ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore au ite mohio kite take i kore ai a Hone Heke c tae mai ki konei. Heoi te mea c taea c au te korero atu : ko au te tangata i kowhiria c te iwi o Ngapuhi hei haere mai kite hui ki Wairarapa, ate mutunga o taua hui haere mai ana au ki Poneke nei, a c n>ho nei au. 391. Te Maka : Ehara koia tena i te mahi rereke rawa a nga rangatira o tou takiwa, ara. te tuku mai i a koe hei mangai mo ratou, te tukua mai ai ia Hone Heke, i to ratou mema o te Paremete? Herepete Rapihana : Ac ; engari tenei ano te take. Ko ahau tetahi o nga Minita ote Kotahitanga. 392. Te Maka : Tena ranei koe c pootitia hei mema mo te Paremete a tenei pootitanga c haere ake nei hei riiwhi mo HoDe Heke ? Herepete Rapihana: Kaore. Kaore au i mohio ki tena, kaore hoki au ite hiahia. Kia hoki au kite kainga ka via cau te take i o ngaro atu ai a Hone Heke i konei. 393. Te Maka : Ko te hui nui ka tv nei nei ki Waitangi, ka kiia pea he hikitanga tera no te hui ki Wairarapa, ara, ka kiia i hikitia ki reira te hui i tv nei ki Papawai? Herepete Bapihana : Ko te tuunga ra tera ote Kotahitanga mo te tau c haere ake nei. Kotahi tonu tona tuunga i ia tau. 394 Te Maka : Kaore pea koe ite ata marama ki taku patai. E penei ana te tikanga o taku patai, ma tv taua hui ki Waitangi ka mau tonu ranei nga whakahaere me nga mahi ana iwi i mahia nei ki Papawai, a ka mutu taua hui ki Waitangi ka nukuhia pea ki tetahi atu kainga o te Motu nei a tera atu tau ? Herepete Bapihana : Ac ; koi na te mahi i ia tau i ia tau. 395. Te Maka : I tv ia nei tetahi hui nui a nga Maori ki Wahi: na te Kotahitanga ano pea hoki tera hui ? Herepete Rapihana: Kaore. Na Waikato ake te tikanga o tera hui. 396. Te Maka : Mehemea he whakahaere ano ta te hui i tv nei ki Wahi ahe whakahaere ano ta te Kotahitanga, ka waiho pea tena hei whakangehe i mahi ate Kotahitanga. Ina hoki ka rua ena

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tikanga. Kaore c tika tenei ingoa te " Kotahitanga " hei ingoa mo ta koutou hui, i te mea kaore c mene ana nga iwi ki raro i tana whakahaere ? Herepete Bapihana : Ac; engari ko te whitu tenei o nga tau etu ana te Kotahitanga, a c toru tekau ma whitu mano nga tangata kua uru ki taua whakahaere. 397. Te Maka : E penei ana koia tau c toru tekau ma whitu mano nga tangata c tautoko ana i te Kotahitanga, a kei waho atu ena i nga tangata i tae nei kite hui ki Wahi, a i tae ki reira etahi tangata o nga iwi katoa o te Motu, haunga hoki a Ngapuhi kaore i tae ? Herepete Bapihana: Kaore au c kaha kite utu i tena patai, notemea kaore au i tae kite hui ki Wahi; engari ko nga tangata c ki nei au c toru takau ma whitu mano kua haina katoa i tetahi pukapuka. 398. Te Maka : Kaore au i te kimi take hei whakahe i o korero ; he mea ke noku kia tuwhera ai he huarahi mou hei whakau i o korero. I kite hoki au ite nui o nga tangata i tae kite hui ki Wahi, a mohio tonu atu au no etahi atu takiwa o te Motu etahi, a kei te mohio tatou kaore i tino nuku atu i te wha tekau mano nga morehu. o te Maori c noho nei i tenei whenua, na reira me pehea c koe te ki c toru tekau ma whitu mano nga tangata c tv ana ko koe tetahi o nga mangai mo ratou ? Herepete Rapihana : Ko te mea mana c whakatika taku korero ko te pukapuka, kei a matou hoki taua mea, kei reira te hainatanga o ia tangata i tona ingoa, a c toru tekau ma whitu mano nga ingoa kua hainatia ki taua mea. 399. Te Maka: Kaati, me penei te titiro ate Komiti ki o korero, ko nga rangatira i tae nei kite hui ki Wahi c takahi ana i nga tikanga o te Kotahitanga, ma hoki i tae ratou ki reira tautoko ai i tetahi atu tikanga. Herepete Bapihana : Ac; kaore ra au iki kua uru nga iwi katoa kite Kotahitanga. Iki ano au kaore etahi iwi.i uru. Ko nga iwi o Waikato etahi kaore i uru, ako nga iwi oTe Whiti raua ko Tohu etahi kaore i uru. 400. Te Maka: No roto ranei ite Kotahitanga te Pire a Henare Kaihau c korerotia nei c koe ? Herepete Bapihana : Kaore ; he motu ke tera ; engari c hiahia ana te Kotahitanga kia tukua atu ki a ratou kia whiriwhiria. Henare Kaihau : E hiahia ana ahau ki ite patai i tetahi patai kite kai-whakahoki patai hei whakamarama i etahi mea. Te Tiamana : Ac; engari kite hoatu he taima ki tetahi mema ote Komiti hei pataitanga mana i te kai-whakahoki patai me pau katoa i a ia i taua taima ana patai, heoi te mea c tuwhera ki a ia i muri iho ko te patai kia whakamaramatia tetahi mea i korerotia. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana, c kore au c patai. Engari me penei taku whakahe mo tenei mahi: tera pea c pohehetia nga korero a te kai-whakahoki patai, a ka waiho hei pohehetanga tno etahi tangata. Mohi te Atahikoia: Ka karangatia kite aroaro ote Komiti, ka whai korero :ka patairia. 401. Te Tiamana : Me korero poto mai c koe o whakaaro, engari kaua c hokia nga korero kua oti i nga kai-whakahoki patai o mua atu i a koe ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Tuatahi c mihi atu ana ahau kite Tiamana me nga mema o tenei Komiti. E whakaae ana ahau ki nga korero a te Tiamana, i korerotia mai nei c ia i naianei, ara, me whakapoto haere eau taku korero, a kia kaua c tuaruatia atu eau nga mea kua oti atu te korero i mua atu. No nga iwi ote Tai Raw r hiti au. Te mea tuatahi c korerotia eauko te whakaupokotanga ote Pire. Kei taua whakaupokotanga etahi kupu mo te Taimana Tiupiri ote Kuini. Kei reira c whakamarama ana te take i karangatia ai tona ingoa he Taimana Tiupiri, ara, ko te taenga o nga tau ote Kuini kite ono tekau c noho ana i runga ite torona. I tae ki taua Tiupiri nga mangai o nga iwi katoa c noho nei i raro i tona mana puta noa ite ao hei whakanui mo taua Tiupiri. I tae ano he mangai mo nga Maori ki taua Tiupiri. No te haerenga o nga Maori ka tukua atu c nga iwi Maori o konei he pukapuka mihi atu kite Kuini mo te taenga kite ono tekau o ona tau etu ana hei Kuini. He inoi atu kia puta he whakaaro mana kite iwi Maori hei tohu whakamaharatanga mo te taenga o ona tau kite ono tekau c tv ana hei Kuini. Ko taua inoi c mea ana me rahui nga toenga o nga whenua Maori. Te take i tuhia ai a i tukua ai taua inoi kite Kuini he mohio no nga Maori kua mate ratou, kua riro o ratou whenua i te raupatu, i nga mahi huhua i mahia, me nga ture i paahitia, ko te utu mai a te Kuini, ma ona Minita i Niu Tireni, ara, ma te Kawanatanga o Niu Tireni, ekimi he tikanga hei whakarite i o ratou hiahia, a koia teuei te utu a te Kawanatanga o Niu Tireni ko te Pire c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Komiti. Kua korerotia c nga Maori te Pire a kua mohio ratou kiona tikanga, a i naianei c ki ana nga Maori kaore rawa i rite taua mea ki nga hiahia nana i tukuna ai c ratou te pukapuka inoi kite Kuini. Na reira tukua mai ana nga pitihana a nga iwi Maori o te Motu nei hei whakahe i te Pire kua hoatu nei hei utu mo ta ratou inoi i tuku atu ai kite Kuini, ara, kia rahuitia o ratou whenua kia mau tonu ai ki a ratou. Ka korero au mo te Tiriti o Waitangi. Ko etahi o aku hoa Maori c noho nei, i a ratou c korero ana kite Komiti, iki kei te whakakotahi nga Maori i raro ite Tiriti o Waitangi. Xi taku te take i whakaaetia ai te Tiriti o Waitangi c tenei Motuna tetahi pukapuka i tukua c nga iwi Maori ki te Kingi o Ingarangi. No te tau 1835 taua pukapuka i tukua atu ai, c tono ana taua pukapuka me tiaki o ratou whenua i te wa c tamariki ana ratou, engari kia kaumatua ratou me whakahoki atu ma ratou ano o ratou whenua c whakahaere. Otira na te Kuini ke i whakahoki mai taua pukapuka, i te mea kua mate atu te Kingi i tukua atu ra kia ia taua pukapuka, a kua eke ko te Kuini ki runga kite torona o Ingarangi. Ko te Tiriti o Waitangi te whakautu mai ate Kuini i taua pukapuka. Ko taua tiriti cki ana kite iwi Maori ano te mana ki ona whenua, ki ona ngaherehere, ki ana mahinga ika, me ana mea katoa. Ko te tikanga o taua Tiriti o Waitangi, he whakapumau i te mana o te iwi Maori. No muri i tera ka oho ake nga raruraru i waenganui i nga Maori me nga Pakeha, engari kaore i ngaro i era te mana o te Tiriti o Waitangi. Ko tetahi wahi o taua tiriti c ki ana ma te hoko anake c riro ai te whenua o te Maori, ara, ma hiahia te Maori kite hoko, ma rite te moni hei utu mo te whenua. Kei te Tiriti o Waitangi enei tikanga c mau ana. I muri iho i tera, ka tonoa c etahi Pakeha kite Kawanatanga o Ingarangi kia tuwhera te hoko i nga whenua

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Maori ki nga Pakeha noa, a whakaaetia ana etc Kuini. Na, i naianei, ite mea kua kite nga Maori kua mate ratou i nga raruraru, i nga whawhai, i nga raupatu, i nga mahi hoko whenua, me era atu mahi a te Pakeha, kua tahuri te iwi Maori kite tono kia whakakorea atu taua wahi ote Tiriti o Waitangi c tuku nei kite Karauna anake te mana hoko whenua Maori. Koia tena nga take i tono ai nga Maori kia rahuitia nga toenga o o ratou whenua hei oranga mo ratou. I naianei, kua takoto te Pire nei kite aroaro o tenei Komiti, otira kaore nga Maori c pai ko te Pire nei hei whakautu mo ta ratou inoi kite Kuini; ko to ratou hiahia kia whakatutukitia nga kupu ota ratou pukapuka inoi kite Kuini. Me whakaatu au kite Komiti ko nga pitihana katoa kua tae mai nei ki to koutou aroaro c whakahe katoa ana ite Pire. Xi te ata tirotirohia nga rarangi o nga tangata tera c kitea c nuku atu ana ite rua tekau mano nga tangata c whakahe ana kite Pire. Na reira, ma tena c mohiotia ai, ko te hiahia o nga Maori me whakamana ta ratou tono kite Kuini kia rahuitia te toenga o o ratou whenua ; a tenei au ka whakaatu ki a koutou, koia tena te hiahia nui rawa o nga Maori, ara, kia tino rahuitia nga toenga o o ratou whenua. Kia oti tena taha ota ratou tono kite Kuini te whakamana. katahi ratou ka tahuri ki te whakatakoto tikanga c whakahaerea ai nga whenua kua rahuitia ra. Kaore nga iwi Maori ote Motu nei ite mohio ki tenei Pire. Kei te kimi ratou he aha rate take i hanga ai tenei Pire. He paku nei te wahi ote Pire kua whakamaramatia ki a ratou. E rua tekau ma waru tonu nga tekiona o te Pire i mauria haeretia nei ki etahi wahi o te Motu nei, i whakamaramatia nei c te Pirimia ki nga Maori, a kitea rawa ake i tenei ra kua eke kite wha tekau ma iwa nga tekiona o tenei Pire. Na reira ahau ka mea kaua c mahia te Pire nei i tenei tau, kaati he Pire c paahi ko tetahi Pire hei whakamutu rawa atu Ite mahi hoko i nga whenua Maori. Heoi ano ;ko era atu hiahia ote iwi Maori me waiho mo tetahi atu wa. Na, iki mai te Tiamana ki au me whakapoto eau taku korero atu i nga whakaaro o toku iwi, na kua peratia c au. Kei nga patai te tikanga c roa ai aku korero. Ko te hiahia nui ote tekau mano tangata kua haina nei i te pitihana whakahe i te Pire ko te mahi hoko i nga whenua Maori me whakamutu rawa atu. Kaore te pitihana ite tono kia patua tenei Pire a kia homai he Pire ke hei riiwhi. Kaore i pena nga kupu a nga kai-pitihana. Kotahi tonu ta ratou kupu, c penei ana, " Patua rawatia atu tena Pire." Kua mutu aku korero. 402. Te Paraone: E penei ana koia tau me mutu te mahi ate Komiti ite Pire nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac, heoi ano te mea c hiahiatia ana c nga Maori kia whakaotia i naianei ko ta ratou 1 tono ai i roto ite pukapuka inoi kite Kuini: ara, me tino rahui o ratou whenua. 403. Te Maka : Kei te mohio ranei koe kite whakaaro ote Pirimia me te nuinga o nga mema o te Paremete, ara, ki ta ratou me whakauoho kite tangata ame whakapai nga whenua takoto noa a te Karauna ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kua mene katoa ena ki roto kite pukupuka inoi i tukua atu nei kite Kuini, ara, me riihi c nga Maori nga whenua kaore i te mahia c nga Maori. 404. Te Maka : Ko te hoko anake ta koutou c whakahe nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 405. Te Maka : Me pehea ki to whakaaro nga whenua kino, c kore nei c nui ake ona utu i nga moni i pau ite whakapainga i aua whenua. Xi to mahara ka kitea c koe he tangata hei riihi i aua tv whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Xi te kore ra c taea te riihi heoi ano c kore c taea. Heoi ano te korero mo ena whenua; engari ki taku, me waiho ena tv mea ma nga Maori ano c whakatau. 406. Te Maka :Ko taku hiahia kia ata titiro koo kite taha c puta ai he ora kite ao i aua whenua: ka whakaae ranei koe kia utu taake nga whenua c takoto noa iho nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Taku utu poto mo tena patai, mo waiho nga mea peua katoa ma nga Maori ano c whakatautau haere. Xi te tau i a ratou me hoko atu ena tv whenua, me whai mana ratou ki te pera, aki te tau i a ratou me riihi, me aha ranei, me whai mana hoki ratou kite pera Koi ana te take ikiaiau me tuku atu ma nga Maori ena tv mea c whakahaere. Kaore kau he whenua kino o toku takiwa. Tena pea c taea te whakawhiti aua whenua kikino c nga Maori mo etahi whenua papai. 407. Te Maka : E hiahia ana ranei nga Maori kia whakakorea te mana o te Kawanatanga c riro nei mana anake c hoko nga whenua Maori ? Mohio te Atahikoia : Ac; c hiahia ana ratou kia whakakorea taua mea a kia whakamutua te hoko. 408. Te Maka : E mea ana koia koutou ki a koutou ano te ritenga mo te hoko mo te kore hoko ranei, mo te pupuri i te whenua mo te kore pupuri ranei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore. E penei ana taku, kaua te tangata c tukua kia hoko atu i fee whenua ahakoa hiahia ia kite pera Koia hoki tena te mea nana i mate ai te iwi Maori, ko te whakaaetanga kia hoko atu ia i ona whenua ma puta tona hiahia kite pera. 409. Te Maka : Kei te marama i au to tupato kei kore nga whenua o nga Maori, engari ko taku c hiahia ana kia mohio au me pehea he tikanga mo nga iwi Maori c whiwhi nei i nga poraka whenua nunui ? Ko te tikanga ate Kawanatanga i naianei he hoko i nga whenua nunui o nga Pakeha : me pehea nga Maori c whiwhi nei i nga poraka whenua nunui, kite puta te kupu ate Kawanatanga me wawahi aua poraka nunui me tuha kite iwi—me pehea ki tau c kore ai c tupona ki taua ahua? Mohi te Atahikoia : Me riihi nga whenua ka utu ai i nga taake me nga reiti ki nga moni c puta mai ana. 410. Te Maka : Engari tenei ano ra etahi Pakeha whiwhi whenua nunui, c utu nei i te taake taumaha rawa, a riihitia c ratou aua whenua kite tangata; otira, ahakoa kei te utu aua tangata i nga taake me nga reiti, eki ana te Kawanatanga he nui rawa era whenua- mo ratou. Kaore au ite ki he tikanga pai ta te Kawanatanga, heoi taku he vi atu ki a koe ka pehea tau tikanga mo tenei tv ahua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi whakaaro mehemea ka ata wehewehea nga whenua Maori ki nga whanaunga ote tangata nona taua whenua katahi ka tika. Kaore c rite ana te Maori kite Pakeha, c haere nei te Pakeha kite hoko whenua mona, a he mano he mano nga eka c riro ana i tona kotahi. Na reira ahau ka ki kaore nga ture epa ana ki nga Pakeha c tau ki runga ki nga whenua Maori. Me tuku ma nga Maori ano c hanga he ture hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua. Ko te

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Pakeha c rereke ana tona ahua : ka pau i a ia nga whenua o Niu Tireni te hoko ka haere ia ki tetahi atu motu hoko ai apo ai i nga whenua o reira. Ko te Maori c kore ia c kaha kite pera; kaore kau hoki ona whenua ke heoi kau ko ana whenua anake i Niu Tireni. 411. Te Maka: Engari tenei ano ra etahi wahi, c tino mohiotia ana c au, he nunui rawa nga whenua o etahi iwi Maori, a ko etahi iwi Maori he kore rawa atu te whenua i a ratou : me pehea enei ahua c rua ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Koia tena taku i korero ake nei: Kaore rawa te ture mo nga Pakeha epa ki nga Maori. Kaore kau o te Maori oranga ke atu ko te whenua anake. E rua ote Pakeha huarahi c whiwhi ai ia i te oranga, he whenua tetahi he mom tetahi, a tenei ano tetahi atu huarahi c whiwhi ai te Pakeha ite oranga: haereere ai ia ki nga motu ke hokohoko whenua ai mona i reira. E kore tena c taea etc Maori. 412. Te Maka : Ehara rawa atu i tena. Kaore ranei c puta he painga ki nga Maori mehemea ka whakahaerea he tikanga c tere ai te kore ote whenua ite Maori kia tomo ai ia ki roto kite tikanga Pakeha noho ai ? E ki ana te Tiriti o Waitangi kia kotahi tonu te ture mo te Pakeha raua ko te Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : E pena ana ra taku kupu. Me paahi ko te whakaupokotanga o te Pire anake i naianei, a ma nga Maori c hanga a muri atu. 413. Te Maka : Etu nei te Kooti Whenua Maori, me ona tikanga whakahaere katoa. Kaore ranei c puta he paiuga ki nga Maori kite terete ruri me te whakatau o o ratou whenua, me te whakaputa o nga tiwhikete ? Mohi te Atahikoia : He kino rawa nga mahi ate Kooti. Ko ta te Kooti mahi he hoatu i nga whenua o tetahi tangata ki tetahi atu tangata i runga i tana huarahi i kite ai kia whiwhi mahi ai te Kooti i tetahi atu tau. 414. Te Maka : He tautohetohe pea no nga Maori i pena ai ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Na te Pakeha i ako te Maori ki enei mahi katoa. Kaore te Maori i mohio kite korero teka i mua, na nga roia Pakeha i ako. 416. Te Maka : E penei ana koia to korero whakaae ai nga Ateha, c noho nei i te taha o nga Tiati, kite whakapohehe ite Tiati, kia kotiti ke ai te Ko«oti i nga korero tito ? Mohi te Atahikoia : He maha nga Ateha i utua kite moni kia tahuri ai kite mahi pena. Penei ai te korero atu ki a ratou "Xi te whakataua c koe te tika ki a mea tangata, tenei te moni mau." Ko ia tena nga mahi o mua, engari i naianei kua kore o te Ateha mana; heoi tana he noho noa iho i reira, kaore ana uru atu ki nga whakahaere a te Kooti. 416. Te Maka : Whiriwhiri tahi ai pea raua ko te Tiati, me te whakawhirinaki atu pea o te Tiati ki a ia hei tohutohu i aia ki nga tikanga Maori? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac; engari kaore c whai tikanga ana kupu. Kaore kau ona mana. I mua ma whiriwhiri te Tiati raua ko te Ateha i ta raua whakatau, c whai mana ai te whakatau a te Kooti me riterite tahi o raua whakaaro, engari kua rereke te tikanga i naianei. I naianei kei te Tiati anake te tikanga mo te whakatau, ka taea c tona kotahi te whakatau i runga i tana i mahara ai he tika, a kite kore te Ateha c whakaae ki tana whakatau kaore kau he tikanga. 417. Te Maka : A, kaati, he aha te mahi a te Ateha c noho tahi nei raua ko te Tiati ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Me whakahoki atu eau tena patai ki tetahi atu patai hoki: I ngaro ki hea nga matauranga i paahitia ai he ture pena te ahua? Ri taku mahara kaore c tika kia whakahokia c au to patai. Me patai atu koe kite Paremete nana i paahi tena ture. 418. Te Maka: Xi taku epa ana o korero ki nga mema Maori c noho ana i roto ite Whare hei heteri mo nga ture c paahitia ana mo te taha Maori? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore au i rokohanga ki konei itewa i paahitia ai ena ture. Kaore c tika kia whakahengia ko ahau. Kei te pena pea me tau, engari kaore c tika kia whakahengia nga mema Maori, notemea ma kokiritia he mea pena kite Whare, ama pooti nga mema Maori kite taha c turaki ana i taua mea, he aha te mea c pahure i a ratou i te mea tokowha tonu hoki ratou, c kore ano c taea c ratou. 419. Te Maka :Xi taku whakaaro ko nga mema Maori tonu kite tohutohu mai i nga ture c mahia ana mo te taha Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi taku whakaaro kaore rawa ratou i whai kupu me tango atu te mana o nga Ateha. 420. Te Maka : Kaore au i mohio kaore i pena nga mema Maori, engari kua kite au i nga mema Maori i roto i te Paremete c whakaae ana ki nga ture me nga tikanga,, c ai ki toku whakaaro, tera c puta hei mate mo nga iwi Maori, a kihai rawa ratou i whakahe ki aua ture i te wa c paahitia ana? Mohi te Atahikoia: E tika ana ; koia tena te mate o nga mema Maori. Kua kite au i tena ahua o ratou, kite Komiti tonu nei, takoto ke nga patai a tetahi takoto ke nga patai a tetahi. 421. Te Maka :Ka patai au ki a koe mo tetahi atu mea. Mo to kupu eki nei koe me tuku atu ma nga Maori ano c whakahaere o ratou whenua, tena kite peratia, ki to whakaaro ka kore te hanga c ugarigare nei, c tautohetohe nei, c whakakaaro kore nei te Maori, c kitea nei hoki taua tv mahi c katoa, c mohiotia nei koi ra kei te hoatu mate mo te Maori ? Kaore koia c mau tonu taua tv mahi ma whakaaetia ma ratou ano c whakahaere o ratou whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore ano rahoki i whakamatauria. Timata ite tau 1840 tae mai ki naianei ko nga Pakeha anake kite hanga ture mo nga Maori. Kaore ano he mana pera i tukua atu ki nga Maori. Kaore ano ratou i tukuna kia whakamatau kite hanga ture mo ratou. 422. Te Maka : Kua kite ra ahau i nga mahi c mahia ana i roto ite Kooti Whenua Maori: Ko nga Maori ano c tahuri atu ana ki a ratou whakarnaori, c tohutohu aua i nga roia, rereke ta tetahi taha rereke ta tetahi taha, heoi te mahi he ngangare he tautohetohe he moumou moni; na reira ka patai au ki a koe, c kore ranei c mau tonu taua mahi ma tukuna atu ,ma nga Maori ano c whakahaere o ratou nei whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : E tika ana ; engari c tautohe ana tena ki o ratou take whenua. 423. Te Maka : He aha koia nga take ka hoatu hei whiriwhiri ma nga hui Maori, ko nga take whenua na hoki ?

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Mohi te Atahikoia: Kua korero atu na hoki au kaore nga Maori i mohio i mua kite hanga korero teka mo te whenua, na nga roia Pakeha i ako kite mahi pera. Na nga roia taua mahi. 424. Te Maka : He pai noatu ena hei korero mau kite Komiti; engari kaua koe c mahara ka whakapono atu au ki tena korero, i te mea no toku tamarikitanga mai ano toku mohio ki nga mahi a te Maori a taea noatia tenei ra. Kua kite au i etahi rangatira c ngana ana kite tahae i nga whenua o tetahi atu rangatira. Koi nei nga mahi i kite ai au i toku tamarikitanga, kaore ia ra, ko te tikauga, mo te iwi katoa te whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : E tika ana ; kaore au i te whakahawea ki tena —kei te aronga nui ke aku korero c haere ana. He tika, he kaumatua rawa ake te kai-patai i au, heoi aku c korero atu nei ko aku ano i kite ai ki toku takiwa. 425. Te Maka: E pai ana. E hiahia ana au kia whakamarama atu koe kite Ko.miti kia kitea ai mehemea kei te mohio ranei koe, kaore ranei, ki nga painga c whiwhi ai te Maori mehemea c puritia ana c ratou o ratou whenua 1 runga i te tiwhikete, kia taea ai c ratou te tuku iho aua whenua o ratou ki a ratou tamariki ? Mohi te Atahikoia : He patai nui rawa tena. 426. Te Maka: E mea ana au kia mohio au mehemea ranei kua tino tatu i nga Maori tetahi tikanga, i tonoa ai kia hoatu he mana kite Kotahitanga hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua, c kore ai ratou c tautohetohe ki a ratou, notemea, kite kore c mutu taua tv mahi, kaore c roa taua Kotahitanga c tv ana ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kua tatu i nga Maori nga huarahi me nga tikanga c whakahaerea ai nga mahi ate Kotahitanga, engari c penei ana ta matou kupu: Tukua mai te mana ite tuatahi, kia riro mai tera hei reira matou mohio ai kite mea hei mahi ma matou. 427. Te Maka : Kei te aroha atu au ki nga Maori c hiahia nei kite whakatakoto tikanga c puta ai he ora mo ratou, engari kei te tino mohio au mehemea kaore i te tino marama i a ratou tetahi tikanga ngawari ake i nga mea kua rongo nei tatou —tetahi tikanga tino marama te takoto —heoi ka puta kau ratou i enei mate ka uru atu ki etahi atu mate ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore ano rate ra o ena mate i taea atu. Kei te mohio matou ka ara ano etahi raruraru, engari ko to matou hiahia he whakamutu i aua mea. 428. Te Maka: Otira ahakoa kite kore c whakaturia c ratou te Kotahitanga ka ahei noa atu ratou kite ki c kore ratou c hoko i o ratou whenua. Kaore kau ote Kawanatanga mana c kaha ai ia kite to atu i a ratou kite hoko i o ratou whenua. E kore koia ratou c kaha kite ki atu kaore ratou c whakaae kite hoko i o ratou whenua, ma tetahi ture rawa koia kia paahitia c kaha ai ratou ki te pera atu ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; c tika ana tena. Engari he kite nei hoki no matou i nga pohehe ote tangata i tono ai matou kia tino rahuitia nga toenga whenua a kia tino araia te hoko. 429. Te Maka : Engari, mehemea kaore kau o te Kotahitanga mana, a mehemea hoki kaore ano i oti i ratou te whakatakoto tetahi tikanga hei whakahaere i a ratou mahi, he aha kei te arai i a ratou te haere noa mai ai ratou kite Paremete tono ai kia paahitia he ture c ahei ai ratou kite whakatakoto tikanga i waenganui i a ratou hei whakamutu i te hoko whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : E tika ana; engari kite kore c hoatu he ture ki nga Maori me pehea c ratou te whakatutuki o ena tikanga a ratou i whakatakoto ai. Ina te tikanga o taku kupu : I nga ra o mua kite hiahia te tangata kite hoko i te whenua, kite kore te iwi c pai a kite tohe tonu taua tangata ka poroa tona upoko, otira kua kore tera tikanga c taea i naianei, ko to naianei huarahi me haere mai te tangata kite Paremete tono ai kia paahitia he ture hei pupuri i tona whenua kei hokona c ia. 430. Te Maka: Kaore koe c whakaaro ana, ite mea hoki kua roa koe c titiro ana ki nga raruraru me nga mate o te iwi Maori, kei te rite nga Maori ki tetahi ope hunuhunu i te pa, ma hoki c mahara nei ratou ma tetahi ture kia paahitia c mutu ai te eke o te mate ki o ratou whenua, kaore ia ra, kei a ratou ano me te ahua o ta ratou noho te mate ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kei te Paremete o tenei whenua anake te he i pa ai nga raruraru me nga mate kite iwi Maori. Na tenei Paremete i paahi te Ture nana i whakamana kia tekau nga tangata c whakatu hei kai-tiaki mo te iwi. 431. Te Maka : Tena mehemea i kotahi te whakaaro o nga Maori i mua, a i ki ratou, " Kua paahitia c koutou ko nga ture kikino kia hoko ai matou i o matou whenua, otira c kore matou c whakaae ki te hoko ; " mehemea pea i pera he kupu ma ratou katahi pea ka pai ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi taku mahara koia tena te take i ara ai te whawhai ki tetahi wahi o te Motu nei, ara, he kore no nga Maori c whakaae kite hoko whenua. Ko etahi c tohe ana kite hoko ko etahi kaore c whakaae kite hoko. Koia tena te take o te whawhai ki Waitara. Te mutunga iho o era tv mahi he whawhai, a kaore nga Pakeha i tautoko i te taha c hapai ana i te tika, tautoko ke ana te Pakeha ite taha nana i whakataritari te whawhai. I tautoko te Pakeha i te taha i whakaae kite hoko whenua, a i tahuri kite whawhai i te taha c pupuri ana i o ratou whenua kei hokona. 432. Te Maka : Ehara ite mea koi na anake te take ote whawhai. I hiahia etahi o nga tangata kite hoko ko etahi kaore i hiahia ; engari c whai mana noa atu ana nga Maori i taua wa kite ki atu, " Kaore matou c hoko, notemea kaore c tuwhera ana i te Kawanatanga nga huarahi c whiwhi ai matou i te utu nui mo o matou whenua ; na reira ka waiho c matou kia takoto mangere ana nga whenua." Me i peratia atu c ratou kua tahuri te Kawanatanga kite hanga ture c rite ana mo nga Maori.

Wbneebi, 12 Oebtopa, 1898. Mohi te Atahikoia : Ka karangatia ano : ka patairia ano. 433. Tame Parata : I ki atu koe kite Komiti i nanahi ko to hiahia me nuku atu te whiriwhiringa o tenei Pire ki tetahi atu wa ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 7—l. 3a.

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434. Tame Parata : A i ki korero hoki koe me whakamutu te hoko whenua? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 435. Tame Parata : Ahakoa kite Kawanatanga kite tangata noa ranei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 436. Tame Parata : A c mea ana hoki pea koe me tuwhera nga whenua Maori kite riihi ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; kite Maori me te Pakeha hoki. 437. Tame Parata : Xi te whakaae te Kawanatanga kite whakatikatika i te Pire kia tatu kite hiahia o nga Maori, ka pehea koe ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Koia tena te hiahia o nga Maori E hiahia ana ratou kia nukuhia te Pire kia taea ai c ratou te w r hiriwhiri me te whakatau o nga mea c hiahiatia ana c ratou. 438. Tame Parata : A c hiahia ana koe kia nukuhia tenei Pire me te Pire hoki a te Kingi, kia nukuhia raua tahi kite hui taro ake nei ka tv ki Waitangi ? Mohi te Atahikota : Ac ; me nuku katoa ki reira nga Pire c pa ana kite iwi Maori. 439. Tame Parata : Tena, ma huihui nga iwi ki Waitangi kite kore c kotahi ta ratou whakaaro — kite pakaru ratou kia rua wahanga, me pehea? Mohi te Atahikoia : E penei ana taku kite kore c oti i te hui ki Waitangi te whakatakoto marama nga mea c hiahiatia ana c nga Maori, kite kore ranei c oti i tetahi atu hui, hei reira me haere mai nga tangata ki Poneke tono ai kia hoatu ano he taima hei whiriwhiringa mo aua mea; notemea he mahi uaua te hanga ture. Kei te mohio a katoa ki tena. 440. Tame Parata ." Kite hiahia tetahi iwi kia whakaaetia tenet Pire hei ture mo to ratou takiwa, me pehea? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi taku mehemea ka herea nga whenua katoa kia kore ai c taea te hoko, ka tono mai ai tetahi takiwa kia whakahaerea tenei Pire ki roto ki to ratou rohe, me whakaae ta ratou tono. 441. Tame Parata : Me whai mana koia ratou kite whakatu Poari mo to ratou takiwa ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac, mehemea kua kati rawa te hoko whenua. 442. Tame Parata : Xi te hiahia ratou kite whakatu Poari mo ratou hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua, pehea tau kupu mo tena ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kua ki atu na hoki au kite katia rawatia te hoko whenua, muri iho i tera ka tono tetahi wahanga iwi o tetahi takiwa kia whakaturia he Poari he komiti he aha ranei mo ratou, ka whakaae au. Engari mehemea kaore ano i katia te hoko whenua kaore au c whakaae, kia kati ra ano te hoko whenua katahi au ka whakaae. 443. Tame Parata: Xi te whakaturia c" tetahi takiwa he Poari mo ratou, a tau ana i taua Poari me nama he moni hei whakahaere i etahi mea, ka pehea tau kupu ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi taku whakaaro kua oti tena patai te whakahoki c au. Kua puta i te iwi katoa totta hiahia kia tino katia te hoko whenua, kia oti tera katahi au ka whakaae ki etahi atu whakahaere. 444. Tame Parata : Koia tena; c patai atu ana ahau i taua patai aku i runga i tenei huarahi na, me ki noa ake kua tino katia te hoko whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; mehemea kua tino katia te hoko kaore aku whakahe kia riro ma ia takiwa ano c hanga ona ture me ona tikanga whakahaere. 445. Tame Parata : E pehea ana to whakaaro mo te Poari ? Kei te whakaae koe ki Poari, kei te whakahe ranei, pehea ranei tau whakaaro ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kei te whakahe au ki nga mea katoa, heoi taku c whakaae ana ko te kati i te hoko whenua. Ehara ite mea ko au anake te tangata c peuei ana te whakaaro, he maha rawa nga rarangi ingoa o nga tangata kua tukua mai ki konei, a rite tahi ki toku to ratou whakaaro. 446. Tame Parata : He aha te take o to whakahe kite Poari ? Mohi te Atahikoia : He maha, maha, maha, noa atu nga take. Ina hoki, ka riro ite Poari te mana ote whenua tuturu atu ki a ia. Ka ahei te Poari kite pupuri ite whenua, kite riihi ranei, kite hoko ranei, kite, mokete ranei i te whenua —ara, kite mahi i nga mahi katoa. 447. Tame Parata : Mehemea ka tino katia c te Paremete te hoko whenua, ko te riihi anake c puare, ka tuku atu ai ma te Poari c whakahaere, ka pehea koe ki tera? Mohi te Atahikoia : Koia tena nga mea c ki nei au me tuku atu ma te iwi Maori c hanga he tikanga. 448. Tame Parata : Ehara ranei i te mea mo te Poari to whakahe : he nui rawa no nga moni c pau i te whakahaerenga o ana mahi ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ko tena tetahi take o taku whakahe, engari tenei ano etahi. Ka ahei te Poari kite nama i te moni c £5,000 ka hoatu i te whenua hei punga ; no te iwi te whenua a riro ke ana taua moni katoa i te Poari mana c whakahaere atu i runga i ana huarahi i kite ai, a c kore rawa c mohiotia ka puta ranei he painga kite iwi nona taua whenua i aua moni i namaia ra c kore ranei. 449. Tame Parata : Kaati, ko te whakahe a te iwi Maori kite Poari he nui rawa no nga moni c pau i te whakahaerenga o ana mahi ? Mohi te Atahikoia : He maha noa atu nga take i whakahengia ai te Poari. Ka whiwhi ana te Poari i te whenua, mutu atu te mana ki a ia, mana c wehe nga tanumanga tupapaku c whakahaere era atu mahi c kitea ana c ia, a kaore rawa c mohiotia c hia nga eka c hoatu ma nga tangata no ratou te whenua. Tena pea c rua tonu nga eka ma ia tangata. E kore rawa c mohiotia nga mahi ate Poari. 450. Tame Parata : E pai ana ; kaati, c ki ana koe c whakahe ana koe ki nga moni tera c pau i nga whakahaerenga ate Poari. Ite mea kei te pena tau, kaati, ko te Kooti Whenua Maori pea c tv nei te mea pai ake i te Poari ? Mohi te Atahikoia : I ki au i nanahi he mea kino te Kooti —he kino nga Tiati me nga Ateha. 1 ki au i hoatu c te Kooti nga whenua o tetahi tangata ki tetahi atu tangata kore take kite whenua, kia puare ai he huarahi c piiratia ai c te tangata tika kite whenua, kia mau tonu ai he mahi ma te Kooti. 451. Tame Parata : A ki to whakaaro kite whakahaerea he tikanga hou ka mutu te tautohetohe o nga Maori tetahi ki tetahi ?

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Mohi te Atahikoia : Ka mau tonu ano te tautohetohe a nga Maori, engari c penei ana ta matou : kua maha rawa nga ture i mahia c te Pakeha, a taea noatia tenei ra kaore rawa tetahi o aua ture i pai. Me tuku i naianei ma nga Maori c hanga he ture, tera pea c pai ake ta ratou. 452 Tame Parata : A ki to whakaaro ka pai atu ta te komiti Maori whakahaere i enei mea katoa i ta te Kooti Whenua Maori, i ta te Poari ranei c meatia nei kia whakaturia i raro i te Pire nei? Mohi te Atahikoia : E pera ana toku whakaaro, notemea kaore ano he mea tino nui i whakamatauria ma te Maori c whakahaere, c mohiotia ai, c taea ai ranei te ki, he iwi kuare ratou kite mahi. 453. Tame Parata : Kua kite ranei koe i te pai i puta i te rironga ma te komiti Maori c whakatau tetahi take c taea ana etc Kooti Whenua Maori te whakatau me i haria ma taua Kooti c mahi ? Kua kite ano ranei koe i tetahi mea c hiahiatia ana i tino oti te mahi c te komiti Maori ? Mohi te Atakikoia : Ac. Kua kite au i nga pai o nga komiti Maori, me te ngawari ota ratou whakahaere, tetahi o nga tino take i pai ai ta nga komiti Maori whakahaere kaore c utua ana ta ratou malii. Heoi ta ratou, ma tonoa kia mahi, he whakawa he whakatau i nga raruraru Maori, engari ite mea kaore ratou c utua ana kite moni, a i te mea hoki kaore c hoatu ana he mana ki a ratou, na reira kaore c taea ana c ratou te whakatutuki o nga mea c whakataua ana c ratou. 454. Tame Parata : Kaore ranei c tupu ana he raruraru i nga mahi a aua komiti Maori ? Mohi te Afahikoia : Raruraru ai ano, engari kaore c rite ana te nui ki nga raruraru c tupu ana i te Kooti. 455. Tame Parata : Kaati, c penei ana to kupu kite Komiti nei, kite hoatu he mana ki nga komiti Maori hei whakahaere i aua mahi ka iti rawa iho te moni c pau i nga moni c pau ana i naianei. Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 456. Tame Parata : E tino tuturu ana to whakaaro koia tena te tikanga c iti ai nga moni c pau, a c kore c pera te nui o nga moni c pau me nga moni c pau ana i te Kooti Whenua Maori, i tetahi atu tv whakahaere ranei? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac : c ki tuturu ana ahau ka iti iho te moni c pau i te whakahaerenga i nga whenua Maori kite riro ma te Komiti Maori c whakahaere, ka iti iho tana i ta tetahi atu tikanga c tv nei tera ranei c whakaturia. Kia tv te hui nut mana c whakatakoto he tikanga c taea ai enei mahi te whakahaere. Ka mahia c ratou i runga ite ture. Kaore c mahia c ratou he mea i waho ote ture, he whakamama ta ratou i nga kawenga taumaha c waha nei c te iwi Maori. 457. Tame Parata : E kore ranei c whakahoa etahi o aua komiti Maori pera me etahi o nga Ateha o te Kooti Whenua Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac, ka pena ano ; c kore ra hoki tena tv mahi c mutu ; engari kite kitea he whanaunga tetahi mema o te komiti no tetahi tangata c whakahaere keehi ana i te aroaro o taua komiti, me whakakore atu taua mema i roto i te Komiti, me riiwhi ki tetahi atu tangata. 458. Tame Parata : Ko te hea te whakahaere pai mo nga whenua Maori? Ko te wehewehe ki ia hapu, ki ia whanau, ki ia tangata ranei, ko te waiho topu tonu ranei kite katoa? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi taku kite tukua mai te mana kite komiti, a kite riro ma te komiti Maori c whakahaere nga whenua, kite pena, ko te wehewehe i te whenua te mea pai. Mehemea kaore c hoatu taua mana a ka waiho tonu ma nga Pakeha c wehewehe nga whenua, katahi ka he, notemea hei aha ma te Pakeha te kore moni a te Maori, hei aha mana tona kore kaha kite utu i te wehewehenga, otira mehemea c tukua ana ma te Komiti Maori c whakahaere ka ata tirohia kia kitea mehemea c kaha ana te tangata nana te keehi kite utu i te wehewehenga. 459. Tame Parata : Kaati, c pai ana ranei koe kia wehewehea nga hea o nga tangata i roto i nga poraka nunui ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Xi te hoatu he mana ki nga Maori c ahei ai ratou kite wehewehe i nga whenua, ka whakaae au kia, wehewehea nga whenua, notemea ka mohio nga Maori ki nga tangata tera c pangia c te mate ite kore moni, a ki nga tangata whai moni hoki kei kohuru i nga mea rawakore. 460. Tame Parata ; Kaati, ki tau kite wehewehea te whenua ki ia tangata katahi ka kaha nga tangata nona kite whakapai i te whenua? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 461. Te Tiamana : Ko nga tikanga c whakaturia ai te Poari c te Pire nei to whakahe ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 462. Te Tiamana: Notemea eki ana te Pire me Pakeha etahi me Maori etahi o nga mema o te Poari i whakahe ai koe ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore au i te whakahe ki tena, ko nga mana me nga tikanga c hoatu ana ki te Poari aku c whakahe ana. 463. Te Tiamana : I penei taku mohio atu ki o kerero i mua ra, kaore o whakahe kite Poari mehemea ka riro me Maori anake ona mema ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore rawa i pena te korero. Ko te komiti Maori te mea i korerotia, kaore te Poari Maori. 464. Te 'Tiamana : Ko taua tv ano tena ahakoa he Poari he komiti ranei tona ingoa c karangatia ai; he komiti koia hei whakahaere i nga mahi c motuhake ana ki nga Maori tau c hiahia nei kia whakaturia. Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 465 Te Tiamana : Xi tau me mau tonu te ahua c takoto topu nei nga whenua Maori me te noho topu o nga tangata nona i runga ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi taku whakaaro he pai ke kia wehewehea nga whenua ki ia tangata, kia mutu ai nga raruraru c tupu ake nei i taua noho topu o te Maori. Engari me tuku atu he mana kia riro ai ma nga Maori ano c wehewehe nga whenua, koia hoki tera te mahi a te Kooti c naereere nei ki ia kainga, ki ia kainga, he wehewehe i nga whenua. 466. Te Tiamana : Kaati, c whakaae ana koe kia kore atu te noho topu a te Maori i ona whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi te hoatu te mana ki nga Maori kia riro ai ma ratou ano c wehewehe nga whenua katahi au ka whakaae, engari c kore au c whakaae atu i naianei, kia tuturu hoatu ra ano te mana ki a ratou katahi au ka whakaae.

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467. Te Tiamana: E whakapai ana koe kite hui ka tv ki Waitangi ite marama o Maehe c haere ake nei ? ' Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac; na matou hoki i whakanuku te hui mo te marama o Maehe. 468. Te Tiamana : Ka tae ranei koe ki reira ? Mohi te Atahikoia • Ac. 469. Te Tiamana : Ka taea ranei c koutou ko nga Maori ka tae ki taua hui te whakatakoto tetahi tikanga c taea ai c nga Maori te whakahaere o nga mea c pa ana ki a ratou me o ratou whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi te whakaae te Paremete kia nukuhia te Pire nei kia tae au ki taua hui ka korerotia katoatia c au oku whakaaro mo te Pire. 470 Te Tiamana: Kaore au ite korero mo te Pire. Ko te mea c hiahia ana ahau kia mohio au, ka taea ranei c koe, me nga rangatira c tae ki taua hui, te whakatakoto atu ki taua hui tetahi tikanga c taea ai te hiahia o nga iwi Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 471. Te Tiamana : Ka taea ranei c taua hui te whiriwhiri o tetahi tikanga marama tera c whakaaetia c nga Maori puta noa i te koroni ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore au c kaha kite whakahoki i tena patai i naianei. Kia tv te hui, katahi matou ka mohio. 472. Te Tiamana : Me ki noa ake ka taea c taua hui te whakatakoto tetahi tikanga marama. Tena, kite pera, ka tukua mai ranei c ratou taua mea kite Paremete kia whakamanangia ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; kotahi tonu hoki te Paremete o nga iwi c rua. 473. Tiaki Tiwini: Ko to hiahia, ki taku mohio atu ra ki o korero, me tuku atu ma nga komiti Maori c whakahaere nga mahi c pa ana ki nga Maori me o ratou whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 474. Tiaki Tiwini : Me pehea te whakatu o aua komiti ? Ara me ki, ko Ngatiraukawa tetahi iwi ko Ngatikahungunu tetahi iwi, a ma te komiti Maori c whakahaere nga whenua o aua iwi, me pehea te whakatu o tetahi komiti mo enei iwi c rua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Me penei ano te whakahaere a te komiti me ta te Kooti, engari ka iti iho nga moni c pau i a te komiti whakahaerenga mahi. 475. Tiaki Tiwini : E penei ana tau, ma Ngatiraukawa ano c whakahaere ona whenua, a ma Ngatikahungunu ano c whakahaere o ona whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore. Ko nga whenua o tetahi iwi me riro ma te komiti o tetahi atu iwi c whakahaere. 476. Tiaki Tiwini : He aha te take i kore ai koe c pai ma nga iwi ano nona nga whenua c whakahaere o ratou whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Notemea akuanei ka whanaunga pea etahi o nga mema o te komiti ki nga tangata nana te keehi, na reira tera pea ka mahi i a te whanaunga mahi. 477. Tiaki Tiwini: Kaati, c penei ana tau tikanga, ko nga mahi nunui katoa penei me tetahi kamupene nui he maha nga tangata nona, me riro ma etahi tangata ra waho, kaote nei o ratou paanga ki nga taonga a taua kamupene, c whakahaere ana mahi katoa ? Mohi te Atahikoia : He rereke to te kamupene ahua. 478. Tiaki Tiwini : Tenei ano ra nga kamupene whiwhi whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ko tena mea ko te kamupene he hunga kotahi, kotahi ano te kaute c takato ai ana moni. Ko tana whakahaere he mea kia tupu nui haere tonu ana moni, na c takoto ke ana te ahua ote iwi Maori me ona whenua. Ko etahi o nga Maori ka uru kite komiti, ko etahi ka noho mai i waho, ko nga take c kereemetia ana c tetahi tangata ka riro ma tetahi atu tangata o ratou c tawari. Na reira ki taku kaore c rite ana nga kamupene ki nga take whenua ote Maori. 479. Ti,a,ki Tiwini : Kei te mohio koe kite mana i tukua atu nei ki nga komiti Maori i te tau 1882 ranei 1883 ranei, i te wa c tv ana ko Te Paraihe te Minita Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 480. Tiaki Tiwini: I whai mana ranei nga Maori i raro i taua ture kite whakahaere i o ratou whenua? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ko au te Tiamana o te komiti o toku takiwa. 481. Tiaki Tiwini : He tika ianei i pootitia c ia iwi tona ake komiti, he mea whiriwhiria c ia iwi i roto i ona rangatira, a kaore i tikina i nga iwi ke he tangata mo te komiti ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; c pena ana. 482. Tiaki Tiwini : I pai ranei te whakahaere a aua komiti mo te taha kite Maori ? Mohi Atahikoia : Ac ; engari kaore kau he mana i tukua atu ki a ratou. He tika i whakaturia aua komiti eia iwi, engari kaore he mana i tukua atu ki a ratou c mana ai a ratou mahi. Heoi ano te mea i whai mana ratou kite mahi, ara, koia tenei: ma ratou c matua whakaae te tono a tetahi tangata kite Kooti Whenua Maori, tana tono ranei mo tetahi ruri, katahi ka tukua kia haere. 483. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaore ranei ratou i whai mana kite tohutohu atu kite Kooti Whenua Maori i te huarahi c wehewehea ai c whakataua ai ranei tetahi whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac; engari kaore rawa te Kooti i tahuri mai ki nga tohutohu a te komiti. Ahakoa whakahe te komiti i tetahi panui i kahititia, hei aha ma te Kooti, kaore c kore te tv o te Kooti kite whakaw f a 1 taua keehi, aki te whakahengia ko nga ruri, hei aha mana haere tonu aua ruri. Na reira kaore kau he mea hei mahi ma aua komiti? 484. Tiaka Tiwini : A ki to whakaaro he pohehe noa iho taua ture ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. Kaore he mana i tukua ki nga komiti? 485. Tiaki Tiwini : Korerotia poto mai kite komiti nei tou whakaaro, me pehea he whakahaere ki tau c puta ai he ora kite Maori—ara, me pehea ta ratou noho me ta ratou whakahaere i a ratou ? Mohi, te Atahikoia : Me rite tonu te mana o te komiti Maori kite mana o te Kooti Whenua Maori. Mehemea c tukua atu ana taua mana ki nga komiti Maori ka taea noa atu c ratou te whakatakoto etahi tikanga whakahaere mo ratou. 486. Tiaki Tiwini : . Xi taku mohio, i korero atu koe kite Tiamana, c whakaae ana koe kia wehewehea nga whenua Maori katoa ki ia tangata ki ia tangata ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac,

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487. Tiaki Tiwini: Xi te tukua atu te mana ki nga komiti Maori, c hia nga tau ki to whakaaro ka oti te whakawa o nga whenua Maori katoa o Niu Tireni ? ■ Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore c taea c au te whakahoki atu o tena, note-tea he whai moni etahi tangata hei whakahaere i a ratou tono kia wehewehea te whenua. ko etahi tangata kaore kau a ratou moni. Mehemea c kitea ana he huarahi c honohono tonu ai te puta mai ote moni, ki taku whakaaro ka oti te mahi i roto i te rua i te toru tau ranei. 488. Tiaki Tiwini : He whenua na hoki to ratou, a c rite ana tena kite moni. Kaore c kore te taea c ratou te nama etahi moni mo nga ruri me nga whakawa wehewehe ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Koia tena taku c korero nei. Me tuku atu kite iwi te mana, ma te iwi c whakatau he tikanga ma tupono ki nga keehi pena te ahua. Ma te iwi c whakatau c ako nga mea kuare o ratou kite huarahi pai mo ratou. 489. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaati, ki tou whakaaro, mehemea he whenua 10,000 eka te nui, a c rua tekau nga tangata o tetahi iwi i whiwhi ki taua whenua, ara, i tino tau taua whenua ki taua rua tekau tangata, a kua puta rawa te tiwhikete mo taua whenua ki a ratou, c penei ana ranei tau me whai tikanga te iwi katoa ra ki runga ki taua whenua ma wehewehea ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore. Ma te rua tekau tangata no ratou te whenua c whakatu he kaiwhakahaere mo ratou. 490. Tiaki Tiwini : Xi to whakaaro ka puta ranei he ora kite iwi nui tonu o te Maori i nga huihui nunui c tv nei i ia wa i ia wa, penei te ahua me nga huihui nunui i tv nei ki Papawai me etahi atu wahi ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore. Koia ke tenei, ko te Paremete nei, te Whare mana c puta ai he ora mo te iwi Maori, engari kaore c whakaputaina ana c ia he ora, na reira ka karangatia nga huihui nunui nei c nga Maori kia tu. Kua maha rawa nga tono kua tae mai kite Paremete nei kia tukua atu etahi tikanga kite iwi Maori, engari kaore c whakaaetia ana. 491. Tiaki Tiwini: Kaati, na reira koe me era atu tangata nunui c arahi nei i teiwi Maori o Niu Tireni i tahuri ai kite whakapau i a koutou moni me to koutou taima kite whakatu i nga huihui nunui nei, te tahuri ai koutou kite tiaki i a koutou tamariki c tupu ake nei, kite ako ki nga mahi c whiwhi oranga ai ratou penei me te mahi paamu, kamura, parakimete, me era atu tv mahi ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore ra ite kore akona nga tamariki. Kei te whakaakoria ano, he kura ano o matou. Ehara ite mea na nga hui i arai te mahi whakaako i a ratou. 492. Tiaki Tiwini : Akona ai pea kite purei piriote kite whakatangitangi i te koriana? Mohi te Atahikoia : Na te Pakeha ena mahi, ehara i te Maori. 493. Tiaki Tiwini : Tokohia nga kamura Maori kei Niu Tireni nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : He maha nga Maori mohio kite hanga poti kite mahi kamura hoki. Na nga Maori ano i hanga nga whare nunui c tv mai nei i Papawai. 494. Tiaki Tiwini : Tena ano ranei etahi parakimete Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 495. Tiaki Tiwini : Kei Papawai pea etahi. Mohi te Atahikoia : Kei Heretaunga etahi. He aha te take o enei tv patai ? 496. Tiaki Tiwini: E penei ana te take o enei patai :me mahi etc Paramete ko nga ture c tupu haere ai te ora o te iwi Maori, a c hiahia ana ahau kia tino marama ehara i te mea na te kore ture i kore ai te Maori c ora, engari na tona mangere tonu ia i patu. Kaore koia koe c mohio ana he mahi kino te huihui i nga Maori, penei me ta ratou c mahi nei, he moumou moni, he whakahoki noa iho i te tupu o te Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 497. Tiaki Tiwini : Xi to mohio ka puta he ora kite iwi Maori i aua hui ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore au c whakaae ki tau, kaore c pa ana he mate kite iwi Maori i nga hui c korerotia nei. Na nga ture ke ote Kooti i mate ai te iwi Maori. Ia tau ia tau he tv tonu te mahi a te Kooti, a he hoko tonu te mahi a nga Maori i o ratou whenua hei utu i nga roia. 498. Te Tiamana : A he aha te take i haere atu ai nga Maori ki nga roia? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ko nga roia ke kite haere raai ki a ratou patipati ai. 499. Tiaki Tiwini : Ehara ranei i te mea ko etahi Maori kite patipati i nga roia, kite ki atu he keehi kaha rawa ta ratou, a ka tahuri ka hanga whakapapa mo ratou, kia pohehe ai te roia koia ano he keehi katia ? Mohi te Atahikoia : E mohio ana au ki etahi keehi pena te ahua, engari ko te nuinga o nga keehi no nga roia fee te he. Ahakoa he koroheke he kuia ranei, ka tae te roia ki taua koroheke ki taua kuia ranei ki penei atu ai: "He keehi tino kaha tau; tukuna mai maku c whakahaere. I nana nga take i mohio ai kite kaha o to keehi; ka tino wiini rawa koe ; heoi ano te moni hei utu mau c £5 tonu c £6 tonu ranei i te ra." 500. Tiaki Tiwini: I mohio ano ranei koe ki a Tiati Manene, kua mate atu, he kai-whakawa ia no te Kooti Whenua Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kua rongo au ki tena tangata. 501. Tiaki Tiwini: I rongo ranei koe he tangata matau ia, he tangata tino mohio ki nga tikanga Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kua rongo au i tena. Kaore au i kite i tena tangata. 502. Tiaki Tiwini : I ki koe i nakuanei ko nga roia kite whakapohehe i nga Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac, ko etahi o ratou. I etahi keehi no nga Maori ano te he ; engari he tv tonu te mahi a te Kooti, na reira ka kumea aru ratou ki runga ki aua mahi kino, 503. Tiaki Tiwini : Haunga tena, ko taku c korero nei no mua atu i te whakaaetanga kia uru nga roia ki roto kite Kooti? E pehea ana koe ki tenei korero i korerotia mai c Tiati Manene ki au ; ara, c haere ana ia kite whakawa i tetahi keehi i roto i te Kooti Whenua Maori, engari ka, nui te uaua o te whakatau, notemea haere atu ai ki reira nga kai-kereeme me nga kai-tawari me era atu kai-korero, a katoa ratou he korero tito anake te mahi ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore ano koia nga Tiati i korero tito. 504. Tiaki Tiwini : He korero ra i korerotia mai ki au. Mohi te Atahikoia : Na katoa tena mahi te korero tito.

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505. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaati, mehemea a pena ana, kaore c tika te ki na nga roia anake te mahi tinihanga mo nga mea c korerotia nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Koia tena nga korero a tena taha, a ko taku nga korero mo te taha ki nga Maori, a kaore i whakataua c mohiotia ai kei ta wai te tika, kei tenei taha kei tena taha ranei. 506. Tiaki Tiwini .' Kaati ake tera, me tahuri tatou ki tetahi ahua ano ote mahi nei. Xi tau ki te whakaturia he komiti Maori ka tere ake ranei i to naianei ahua te wehewehe o nga whenua Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaati, me ki atu au ka iti iho te utu. Ka mama ake ta te komiti mahi; engari kaore c tere ake i ta te Kooti. 507. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaore ranei c tere ake ? Mohi te Atahikoia ; Kaore ; kua korero atu nei hoki au, kite kore he moni a nga tangata c kore ratou c kaha kite whakahaere i a ratou keehi. 508. Tiaki Tiwini : Me ki noa ake, tenei etahi tangata kua pae he moni ma ratou a kei te hiahia kia whakawakia a ratou keehi c te Kooti ; ka tere ake ranei ta te komiti Maori whakahaere i taua whakawa i ta te Kooti Whenua Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac pea, notemea kei te mohio nga Maori ki nga whenua o etahi Maori, a kite tito te korero ate tangata ka mohio ratou. Kaore nga Pakeha c mohio. 509. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaore koe i te mohio kua oti katoa ki roto ki nga pukapuka o te Kooti Whenua Maori nga whakapapa o nga iwi katoa me nga hapu katoa c noho ana i te koroni nei, a he torutoru nei i mahue ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac, kei te mohio au ki tena ; engari ko te nuinga o ena whakapapa he tito. He mea hanga etahi i nga wa c tv ana te Kooti. 510. Tiaki Tiwini: Na wai i whakakiki kia penatia? Mohi te Atahikoia : Na nga roia. Xi te hiahia te roia kia wini tana keehi ka hanga eia he wmakapapa kia tika ai mo te keehi c whakawakia ana. 511. liaki Tiwini : Kaore pea nga Maori c mahi pena? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore c mahi pera te Maori i nga wa o mua, engari i naianei kua mohio kite pera na nga roia enei mahi kino i ako ki a ratou. 512. Tiaki Tiwini: Xi te whakaturia he komiti Maori, me timata he mahi mana ite uiui ki nga ahika, ki nga noho tuturu, ki nga whakapapa, me era atu mea katoa, c kitea ai nga tangata tika kite whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; penei tonu me ta te Kooti Whenua Maori whakahaere. 513. Tiaki Tiwini : Kia tokohia ki tau nga mema mo te komiti Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : E kore au c kaha kite ki atu i tena i naianei, kei pohehe ahau ; kei kiia a muri i he taku korero. 514. Tiaki Tiwini: Ko te take i haere mai ai koe ki konei he whakaatu mai iau mea i mohio ai, kia whai ai nga ture c mahia ana c te Paremete i nga hiahia o nga rangatira Maori kua tae mai nei ki konei ; kite kore koe c whakaatu mai lav i mohio ai, kei hea he mea hei arataki i a matou. Xi te kore koe c korero mai kua kore he mea hei tohutohu i au, kua kore au c mohio ki o koutou hiahia ? Mohi te Atahikoia : E pai ana, kaati, kite vi mai koe i taku ake i mohio ai, ka taea c au te korero atu o tena. Xi taku, c rua nga ahua ote komiti c pai ai nga whakahaere. Kia takotoru nga mema o tetahi tv komiti hei mahi i nga take mama. Mo nga take uaua take taumaha kia tekau ma rua nga tangata. 515. Tiaki Tiwini : Ko nga take anake c pa ana ki nga whenua nga mea c hoatu ma ratou c mahi. Me tuku atu koia etahi atu tv take kia mahia c nga komiti Maori? Mohi te Atahikoia : Nga whenua me etahi atu raruraru —ara nga raruraru i waenganui i tetahi wahanga iwi me tetahi atu wahanga iwi, he tika era tv mea kia tukua atu ma aua komiti Maori c mahi. 516. Tiaka Tiwini : E mahara ana koe ka whakaurua he rarangi ki roto kite Pere Whenua Maori hei whakamana i nga komiti Maori kia ahei ai ratou kite mahi i nga raruraru c puta ana i roto i te iwi Maori, a ka tukua atu he mana c ahei ai ratou kite whaina kite whiu ranei i te tangata kite whareherehere ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore ; c korero ke ana ahau mo te whenua. Ko te ture nui etu nei kei te mana tahi ki runga ki nga Pakeha me nga Maori. Kei te taha anake ki nga ture mo nga whenua ka rereke te tikanga mo nga iwi c rua. 517. Tiaki Tiwini: Mo te aha kia rua nga komiti mana c mahi te take kotahi kite whenua? Kaore ranei c taupatupatu nga komiti c rua? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ko te komiti c toru ona mema hei whakawa tuatahi i nga take kite whenua, a kite piiratia katahi ka riro ma te komiti tekau ma rua c whakawa tuarua. Koia tena toku whakaaro. 518. Tiaki Tiwini : Xi to whakaaro ka nuku ake te tika me te pono o te mahi a te piira komiti tekau ma rua ona mema me to komiti c toru ona mema i te mahi a nga tangata penei te ahua me Tiati Make raua ko Tiati Patara ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; he aha hoki i kore ai. Mehemea hoki i pai te mahi a nga tiati kua kore he take c tonoa nei kia whakaturia he komiti Maori. 519. Tiaki Tiwini : Ina ke pea te tikanga, ko nga tangata c whakataua ana ki a ratou te whenua ka nui te whakapai, a ko nga tangata kaore i whakataua ki a ratou te whenua ka nui te whakahe ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac; engari ua, tena c mohiotia ai kei te he ta nga Tiati. Ina hoki ka whakataua c te Tiati tetahi poraka whenua tetahi paanga ranei ki taua whenua ki tetahi tangata i kitea c ia koi ra taua tangata tika kite whenua. Akuanei ka piiratia etc tangata i hinga, a kei te tuunga ote whakawa tuarua tangohia atu te whenua ra i te tangata i tau ra ki a ia i te tuatahi, hoatu ana kite tangata nana te piira, ma tenei ka kitea te he o te Tiati nana i whakawa tuatahi te whenua ra. 520. Tiaki Tiwini : Akuanei no te tangata Maori pea tena he, he kore kaore i marama tana whakatakoto i tana kereeme i te tuatahi ?

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Mohi te Atahikoia : I etahi whakawakanga kei te Maori te he, i etahi kei te Tiati. Ko etahi Tiati kaore c mohio ana kite tikanga o nga korero a te Maori, kia uru ra ano kite Piira Kooti katahi ratou ka mohio. 521. Tiaki Tiwini: E penei ana te tikanga o to korero mai ki au kaore a Tiati Patara a Tiati Make a Tiati Rokena me Tiati Mete c mohio ana kite tikanga o nga korero c korerotia ana ki a ratou me nga mahi c mahia ana c ratou. Ko enei tangata he kaumatua rawa a c rite ana ki tou to ratou mohio ki nga tikanga Maori ? Xi to whakaaro c pera ana te ahua o aua tangata? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore au c korero ana he pera ratou katoa. Mo etahi anake o ratou taku korero. He tika nga whakatau a etahi o ratou, he he ta etahi, engari ahakoa kotahi tonu te Tiati ihe te whakatau ka ai tena hei take c tika ai taku whakapae i a ratou katoa. 522. Tiaki Tiwini : Kei te mohio koe ki a Henare Matua? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 523. Tiaki Tiwini : He Maori matau ranei ia ? Mohi to Atahikoia : Ac, he tangata mohio ia ; he tangata korero tika a he tangata korero tito. 524. Tiaki Tiwini : Ehara ianei i te mea na Henare Matua, i era tau maha noa atu, i whakaputa te whakaaro me tuku ma nga komiti Maori c whakatau nga take whenua Maori katoa kaua te Kawanatanga nga Kooti ranei c uru ki taua mahi ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. Ko ia rate tiamana ote komiti o tona takiwa, ano te whakakorenga a te iwi i a ia tv ana ko ahau hei tiamana. 525. Tiaki Tiwini : E korero ana an mo te tau 1873. E mohio ana koe kite raruraru nui ipa ki te wahanga o Ngatikahungunu c noho nei i Mahitaone ? Kei te mohio koe ki tetahi poraka whenua i reira ko Te Weraiti te ingoa ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 526. Tiaki Tiwini : I rongo ranei koe tekau ma waru nga marama c mahi ana te komiti a Henare Matua c tuhituhi ana i nga korero mo taua poraka ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; i rongo au i tena. 527. Tiaki Tiivini: A i rongo ranei koe ma te ikeike o nga pukapuka—piri tonu te tuhituhi—o nga korero i korerotia kite aroaro o taua komiti i taua whakawa a ratou? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore. 528. Tiaki Tiwini : He whakaatu taku i te ahua o nga mahi o tenei mea o te komiti Maoi, i te turikore o tana mahi ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaati, ki taku mohio kei te he pea nga korero mo tena komiti. He maha pea nga komiti, i honohono haere pea, i pau ai i a ratou tena tekau ma waru marama. Kaore te komiti kotahi i mahi tonu i nga, marama tekau ma waru na. 529. Tiaki Tiwini : I mahi tonu taua komiti mo nga marama tekau ma waru,e rua marama c toru marama i te tuunga kotahi, a pau noa taua tekau ma waru marama, a te mutunga iho kihai i tau taua mea i a ratou, a riro ana mate Kooti Whenua Maori c whakatau. Ka pera pea me te mahi mo Te Weraiti te whakahaere mahi a nga komiti Maori ma whakaaetia kia whakaturia? Mohi te Atahikoia : No te tau 1873 tena. Kaore ano nga Maori i mohio i kona. 530. Tiaki Tiwini: E kimi ana au kia whakaaturia mai c koe tetahi raruraru, ahakoa kotahi tonu, i oti i a ratou Maori ano te whakatau ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ko taku utu i whakahoki ai mo te patai mo nga Tiati koi ra ano te utu mo tenei patai. He aha te tika ote ki, notemea, i kuare tetahi komiti kite whakahaere mahi, na reira ka kuare katoa nga komiti c whakaturia ana i muri iho. 531. Tiaki Tiwini : Kei te pohehe koe ki taku patai. Ina ke taku patai: Ka taea ranei c koe te whakaatu mai kite Komiti nei i tetahi raruraru i pa kite whenua i waenganui i etahi iwi, i waenganui ranei o etahi tangata o te iwi kotahi, i oti i te komiti Maori te whakatau ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore c taea c au. E mohio ana au ki etahi whenua i etahi wahi o te Motu nei i tukua ma te komiti Maori c mahi, a i oti pai i a ratou whakatau, engari kaore c taea c au te whakahua nga ingoa i naianei. 532. Tiaki Tiwini : Kia mohio koe kaore au i te tu-a-whakatete ki a koe i a taua c korero nei, heoi taku he kimi matauranga ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kei te mohio au ki tena. I rongo au ki tetahi raruraru i pa ki etahi whenua i oti i te komiti Maori te whakatau. 533. Tiaki Tiwini: Kaore ranei koe c whakaaro ana tena pea c terete whakatautau haere i nga keehi wehewehe whenua Maori kite rua nga Ateha Maori c noho ana hei hoa mo te Tiati i roto i te Kooti Whenua Maori, a ko nga roia me pana atu? Mahi te Atahikoia : E kore au c whakaae ki tena. Me whakamatau i nga komiti Maori i te tuatahi, aki te kitea kaore ite pai ta ratou mahi katahi ka whakamatau i tetahi atu tikanga. Ka maha nga tau r mahi ana te Kooti, a i naianei tukuna kia whakamatauria nga komiti. 534. Tiaki Tiwini: He aha to whakahe kite rua Ateha hei hoa noho tahi mo te Tiati ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kua whakamatauria ano te rua Ateha i mua, a kaore hoki i mutu i a raua te raruraru. 535. Tiaki Tiwini : I pehea i ara ai te raruraru. Na te rua ranei o nga Ateha ? Mohi te Atahikoia .- Kaati, i te mea kua patairia mai c koe tena patai, me tohitu tonu atu taku whakahoki. I hoatu he wahine ma aua tangata kia takoto ke ai te whakatau. Mau ai nga Ateha i tena tv poa me nga Tiati hoki. 536. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaati, ki tau me pokapoka nga mema o te komiti Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore ano tena i w r hakamatauria. Kaore ano tatou i mohio kite hui kite kino ranei ote mahi ate komiti Maori. E korero ana ahau i aku tonu i mohio ai iaue ki atu nei kua taea tera tv mahi c te Kooti. 537. Tiaki Tiwini : Tena mo te taha ki nga Tiati Pakeha, ki to whakaaro ata mahi ai nga Tiati Pakeha i te mahi tinihanga ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac.

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538. Tiaki Tiwini: Xi to whakaaro ata mahi ai ratou i te mahi tinihanga? Mohi te Atahikoia: Me mohio te kai-patai ki tenei ahua :ki te titiro whakamuri ia ki nga tau kua pahemo nei ka kite ia i ia tau i ia tau he haere tonu te mahi a te pitihana he whakahe i nga whakatau a nga Tiati, ma tena c mohiotia ai kei te he aua whakatau ? 539. Tiaki Tiwini: Kaore koe c mohio ana he pena ano nga Kooti Pakeha he piira tonu ki nga Kooti o runga ake ? Mohi te Atahikoia : He he ra pea no nga whakatau a nga Kooti o raro iho i pena ai. 540. Tiaki Tiwini: Kaati, ki tau ka tika, tonu ka tika, tonu nga whakatau ate komiti Maori, c mea nei koutou kia whakaturia, kaore rawa taua komiti c mahi he ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. Kaore ano taua komiti i mahi te mea he, engari te Kooti kua pera; na reira kaore c riterite ana ro raua ahua. 541. Tiaki Tiwini: Xi to whakaaro ka hira ake te mohio me te totika o nga mema ote komiti Maori i to nga Ateha c whakaturia ana mo te Kooti Whenua Maori o Niu Tireni? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. Ite wa i whakaturia ai nga Ateha tuatahi ehara ite mea he tangata mohio ratou, he mea whiriwhiri ranei c te iwi hei pera, engari i whakaturia ke i runga i te hiahia o tetahi Pakeha. 542. Tiaki Tiwini : E mohio ana pea koe he Ateha a Ropata Wahawaha, kua mate ake nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore au i mohio he Ateha ia. 543. Tiaka Tiwini : Kei te mohio ra ahau he Ateha ia. Xi tau he tangata ranei ia c taea te whakapati kite moni kia whakaae ai ia kite whakatau he i tetahi keehi. Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore au c mohio ka taea ranei ia te whakapati kite moni kaore ranei. 544. Tiaki Tiwini: Xi to rongo kite ahua o nga mahi a tera tangata, ka taea ranei ia te hoko ki te moni ? Ehara koia ia ite rangatira tino tika atu nga whakaaro ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi taku mohio ka riro ano ai ite utu, i haere hoki ia kite patu i nga tangata o te Motu nei kia riro mai ai he moni i a ia. 545. Tiaki Tiwini : Ka nui toku pouri mo toku rongonga atu i ena korero au mo tenei rangitira Maori, c mohiotia nei c te iwi Pakeha he tangata nui rawa no Niu Tireni ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ehara taku ite whakakino i taua tangata. He utu tohitu kau atu taku ite patai i tohitu mai. Ko te patai i patairia mai ki au i mea kia korerotia atu eau te ahua o nga mahi a tera tangata, a koia tena kua korerotia atu na c au. 546. Tiaki Tiivini : Me pehea ki tau te utu i nga komiti Maori c toru ona mema, me te komiti Maori tekau ma rua ona mema, mo ta ratou mahi? Mohi te Atahikoia : Me utu ki etahi o nga moni c utua nei ki nga Tiati o te Kooti Whenua Maori. He nui rawa nga moni c utua ana ki nga Tiati. 547. Tiaki Tiwini : Kia hia te moni c utu ki ia mema o te komiti Maori, kia hia i te tau, kia hia nga moni utu haerenga ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore tena c taea c au. Xi taku rongo tekau hereni me te hikipene te utu mo te ra mo nga Ateha. 548. Tiaki Tiwini : Xi to whakaaro, he tangata tinihanga nga Ateha katoa? Mohi te Atahikoia : Etahi o ratou. 549. Tiaki Timini: Te nuinga pea o ratou ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 550. Tiaki Tiwini : Xi to mahara ka whakaae nga tangata tino totika kite mahi mo te moni iti iho i nga moni i utua ra ki nga tangata c ki nei koe he tinihanga ratou ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ma nga tangata c pooti nga mema o te komiti a ma ratou c whakarite he utu mo ratou. Ko to ratou hiahia he whakaiti i nga moni c pau. 551. Tiaki Tiwini : Ka whakaae ranei nga tangata o etahi takiwa kite haere ki etahi atu takiwa mo te kore utu ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kua ki atu nei hoki au me utu ano ratou, engari kaua c pera rawa te nui o te utu me nga utu o nga Tiati ? 552. Tiaki Tiwini : E tono ana koe ki nga mema o tenei Komiti kia whai kupu atu ratou kite Whare Paremete kia whakaaetia kia tv nga komiti Maori; tena, ka taea ranei c koe i tenei ra, apopo ranei, a tetahi atu ra ranei, te whakaatu mai ki a matou c hia ra nga moni c pau i te tau i ia komiti i ia komiti Maori, notemea kaore c pai te korero kau mai ki tenei Komiti he pai ake nga komiti Maori i te Kooti, kaore he mahi c tutuki i tena, engari me korero mai c koe ko te mea c taea ai te whakatutuki he mahi. Me whakaatu mai kia mohio ai matou kite nui o nga moni c pau? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore c taea c au te utu atu o tena i naianei, kia oti ra ano tenate whiriwhiri c te hui, kia puta ra ano tana kupu kia hia nga komiti mo nga wahi katoa o te koroni, katahi ka taea c au te utu o tena patai. 553. Tiaki Tiwini : Kia hia nga komiti ki tau mo Aotearoa, a kia hia mo Te Waipounamu ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Me ki noa ake kia kotahi mo Te Waipounamu kia toru mo Aotearea. Hui katoa c wha. Ko nga rohe tonu o nga takiwa pooti i nga mema Maori ote Paremete he rohe mo nga takiwa oia komiti Maori. Ara, kia kotahi komiti mo ia takiwa pooti Maori. 554. Te Tiamana : E rua aku patai ki a koe mo runga i etahi patai a Tiaki Tiwini ki a koe. Iki koe ma whakawakia he keehi c te Kooti Whenua Maori, a ka piiratia kite Kooti Piira, kite hurikikotia c te Kooti Piira te whakatau a te Kooti Whenua Maori, he tohu tera i he te whakatau a te Kooti Whenua Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 555. Te Tiamana: A kaati, kite whakataua c te Kooti Piira ki ta te Kooti Whenua Maori i whakatau ai, he tohu ranei tera kei te tika te whakatau a te Kooti Whenua Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 556. Te Tiamana: Ka nui taku koa mo taku rongonga atu i tena, notemea ma tena c kaha ai te Komiti nei kite whakatau i etahi o nga pitihana c takoto nei i tona aroaro. Xi taku mohio atu ki o korero he taea katoa te nuinga o nga Ateha o te Kooti Whenua Maori te hoko kite moni ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. He tangata kuare ratou. He tangata ratou i whakaturia c etahi Pakeha hei hoa mo ratou. Tena ano etahi o ratou he tangata matau.

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557. Te Tiamana: E tau ana pea tena kupu mo etahi atu Maori: ka taea ano pea hoki ratou te hoko kite moni ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Etahi o ratou —he penei ano me te Pakeha. 558. Te Tiamana: Ka uaua ranei te kitea i roto ite iwi Maori etahi tangata tino totika, tapatahi te ngakau, hei mema mo nga komiti c mea nei koe kia whakaturia ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ka waiho tena ma te iwi Maori c whiriwhiri nga tangata c mohiotia ana c ratou he tangata totika hei mema mo nga komiti, a kite kitea c te iwi a muri atu kei te rereke te haere a tetahi mema o te komiti ma te iwi ia c whakakore atu c whakatu tetahi atu tangata hei riiwhi mona. 559. Te Maka : Ka rnau tonu ranei koe ki to whakapae i korero ake nei: ara, riro ai etahi o nga Tiati Pakeha i te whakapati kite wahine Maori; a, eaiki to korero, ehara i te mea ko nga Tiati Pakeha anake nga mea c riro ana i taua mahi, engari riro ai hoki nga Ateha Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Riro ai raua tahi. 560. Te Maka.: E tino mohio ana koe ki tena, he korero noa iho ranei nau ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kua kite au i nga Ateha c mahi pera ana, engari kaore au c ki i tino kite au i nga Tiati c mahi pera ana. Engari he apiha tahi raua no te Kooti kotahi. 561. Te Maka : Engari he mea rongo kau nau ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore ano au i kite; engari kua rongo au. 562. Henare Kaihau : E penei ana taku mohio atu ki nga korero a te kai-whakahoki patai, kei te whakahe ia kite Pire timata i te upoko tae noa ki raro. Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore ;iki au kei te whakaae au kite upoko ote Pire. Xi te kupu c mea nei me rahui nga whenua o nga Maori, kei te whakaae au ki tera. 563. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, ko te wahi ote Pire c mea nei me tino kati rawa te hoko whenua Maori, koia tera te wahi c whakaaetia ana c koe ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac; c pena ana taku—ta matou tahi ko te hunga nuku atu i tekau mano tangata c whakahe nei i tenei Pire. Xi te tirohia etc Komiti nei te pitihana a aua tangata ka kite koutou koia tena ta ratou c tino hiahia ana —ara kia whakamutua te koko i nga whenua Maori. 564. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana tetahi wahi o te Pire me tuku atu kite Minita mo nga Whenua raua ko te Minita Maori te mana c whakahaerea ai enei mea katoa; kei te whakaae koe kia whnkawhiwhia raua ki. taua mana ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Koia ena nga tikanga o te Pire eki nei au kaore c whakaaetia c au. 565. Henare Kaihau : E penei ana tau me nuku tenei Pire kia tukua atu kite hui ka tv ki Waitangi i naia tata nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; i pena taku kupu, i ki au ka tv he hui ki reira a te marama o Maehe c haere ake nei, engari kite hikitia te hui ki tetahi atu wahi me hari te Pire ki reira. 566. Henare Kaihau : Xi te haria te Pire ki reira, ka pehea ki to whakaaro te kupu a nga iwi ka hui ki reira mo te Pire nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore au i te mohio kite whakaaro o te iwi, notemea kei tona kainga ano ia iwi ia iwi c noho ana. E penei ana taku kupu: Ka tv te hui ki reira, ki Waitangi, ama nga tangata matau o nga wahi katoa o te Motu nei c haere ki reira. Me ata panui ite tuatahi ko te Pire nei tetahi mea ka korerotia ki reira. 567. Henare Kaihau: Xi te hiahia etahi o nga iwi me tv taua hui ki tetahi atu kainga, kaua ki Waitangi, he tawhiti rawa, ka pehea koe ki tera ? Ka whakaae ranei koe ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore kau aku tikanga mo te wahi etuai te hui. Ka pai noa atu au ki tau c korero mama.

Pabaiee, 14 Oketopa, 1898. Mom te Atahikoia : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. Wi Pere : He patai taku kite kai-whakahoki patai. He vi atu mehemea ka whakaae ia kite unu i ana kupu i korero ai mo Meiha Eopata Wahawaha i a ia c korero ana i tahi ra ake nei. Notemea ki taku whakaaro i ohorere noa ake te puta o aua kupu i a ia, a i te mea kua ata hurihuria pea eia aua kupu ana, kua mohio pea ia kite he o aua korero ana. Ka whakaae ranei te Komiti kia patairia c au tenei patai ? Te Tiamana : Kei te kai-whakahoki patai te tikanga. 568. Wi Pere : Kaati, ka tono atu au kite kai-whakahoki patai kia unuhia taua korero ana. Te Kahana: He aha te tikanga ote unu i aua kupu ? E penei ana koia te kai-whakahoki patai he tito aua korero ana, a i naianei me unu c ia aua korero ? Te Tiamana : Xi taku mohio mo nga Ateha o te Kooti Whenua Maori taua korero. Iki te kai-whakahoki patai ka taea te nuinga o nga Ateha te whakapati kite moni, katahi a Tiaki Tiwini ka patai atu mehemea he pera hoki a Meiha Eopata Wahawaha. Te Kahana : Kaati, he whakaaro tera nana. Wi Pere : Te take i tono ai au kia unuhia taua korero ki taku mahara i ohorere noa ake taua korero i runga i nga patai ehara tera i te tino whakaaro o te kai-whakahoki patai, a tena pea kei te pouri ia mo aua kupu. Te Tiamana : Kua unuhia aua kupu. 569. Henare Kaihau : I tera rangi i a tatou c korero ana mo te Pire nei, i utua mai c koe taku patai whakamutunga, a i ki koe ko to hiahia me nuku te whiriwhiringa o tenei Pire ki tera tuunga o te Paremete, kia taea ai te Pire te tuku atu ki nga hui Maori puta noa i tenei Motu. Xi to whakaaro kite whakaaetia taua korero au, a kite tukua atu te Pire ki nga hui i tenei Motu me tera Motu, ka tautoko ranei aua hui i nga tikanga kua whakatakotoria nei c nga rarangi c mau nei i te Pire nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Ka whiriwhiria ka korerotia c nga huihui te Pire. 570. Henare Kaihau: E penei ana te tikanga o taku patai, ka tautoko ranei aua huihui i te Pire, ka whakahe ranei ratou kite Pire ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Me titiro ki nga pitihana, kei te whakaatu hoki aua mea, heoi ta nga Maori c hiahia ana ko o ratou whenua kia rahuitia a kia whakamutua te hoko i aua whenua. B—l. 3a.

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571. Henare Kaihau: Ka taea ranei c koe te whakaatu mai nga take c huihui tonu nei te iwi Maori? Mohi te Atahikoia: Te take i karangatia ai aua hui iia tau, iia tau, he korero mo nga mate kua pa kite iwi Maori i nga ture kua paahitia c te Kawanatanga o tenei koroni. 572. Henare Kaihau: E penei ana tau kei te whakahe ratou kite Kooti Whenua Maori me ana mahi katoa ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. I putake mai ite Kooti te nuinga o nga raruraru me nga mate o te iwi Maori. 573. Henare Kaihau : E whakahe ana koe i te Kooti tae atu kite Kooti Piira ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Notemea i mate ratou i nga whakatau a aua Kooti na reira ka whakahe hoki ratou ki nga whakatau a te Piira Kooti. 574. Henare Kaihau : Me whakapoto c au te patai, me penei c au, he aha rawa te take i karangatia ai nga hui Maori kia tv ? He kino ranei no nga iwi Maori kite Kooti Whenua Maori, ki nga tiute Maori, kite taake kuri, ki nga reiti c tonoa nei mo nga whenua Maori, ki nga ruri, c ki nei hoki ratou kaua nga whenua Maori c ruritia, me era atu mea ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. Ko te tikanga hoki i mua ma nga Maori c tono te ruri katahi ka ruritia o ratou whenua; i naianei ka ahei noa atu te Kawanatanga kite whakahau kia ruritia te whenua ahakoa kaore nga Maori nona te whenua c whakaae. 575. Henare Kaihau: Xi taku mohio atu ki o korero i mua ra, mehemea nei c penei ana, kei te tino whakahe nga Maori puta noa i tenei Motu kite Pire Whakahaere Whakanohonoho hoki i nga Whenua Maori c takoto nei: c pera ana koia tau ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. Xi taku mohio, kite ata whakaaro te Komiti nei, kaore koutou c kore te kite, katahi ano te pitihana i penei rawa te maha o nga tangata i haina me te tekau mano c whakahe nei i te Pire, na i tukua atu c aua tangata tetahi pukapuka kite Kuini, he inoi atu kia rahuitia o ratou whenua a kia hereherea te hoko, akuanei no te whakahokinga mai o ta ratou tono rereke ana i ta ratou i tono ai, na reira ka tino uaua ka tino whakahe ratou mo te Pire c takoto nei. 576. Henare Kaihau : Mehemea kite kite Pirimia kia paahitia tenei Pire i tenei huihuinga o te Paremete, hei aha mana te pitihana a te tekau mano tangata c takoto nei i te aroaro o tenei Komiti, hei aha mana nga korero kua korerotia atu nei ki tenei Komiti c nga kai-whakahoki patai mo te taha ki o ratou iwi nana ratou i tuku mai hei mangai mo ratou, ka pehea ki tau te mutunga iho kite peratia te mahi ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi taku mohio kite tohe tonu te Pirimia, a kite kore c whakaarohia c ia nga hiahia o te iwi Maori, c whakaaturia nei aua hiahia i roto i te pitihana me te pukapuka inoi i tukua atu nei kite Kuini, ara, kite whakahaerea c ia tenei Pire kia paahi rawa a kite whakahaweatia iho nga whakahe a te iwi Maori, heoi ka kawea ano c te iwi Maori ta ratou whakaaro ki te Kuini. 577. Henare Kaihau : Haunga tena. Ina ke taku patai: Xi te tohe tonu te Pirimia kia paahi tenei Pire i tenei huihuinga o te Paremete, a paahi rawa hei ture, ka pehea nga Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Ka whakahe ra ratou. Xi te paahitia hei ture kaore nga Maori c whakaae. He tino muru hoki ta te Pire i to ratou mana kite whenua, he hoatu i nga whenua kite Kawanatanga, mana c whakahaere c mokete c aha atu i runga i tana huarahi i whakaaro ai. 578. Henare Kaihau : E penei ana pea to kopu kite paahitia tenei Pire hei ture tera c whakamau te iwi Maori puta noa i tenei whenua, a tera pea c oho he rururaru i waenganui i nga iwi c rua o enei Motu ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; ka puta ano he whakahe ma ratou. 579. Kapene Bahera : Xi to whakaaro he pai atu ranei te matauranga o te Pakeha mo te Maori i to te Maori ahua c noho nei i naianei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 580. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ranei koe c whakaaro ana he mea pai kia whakahaerea ko nga tikanga c whakauruuru ai o te Maori matauranga ki o te Pakeha ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Ac ; engari c rereke ana nga ture mo nga whenua o nga Maori i nga ture mo nga whenu o nga Pakeha. 581. Kapene Bahera : Xi to whakaaro kia kotahi te ture mo nga whenua Pakeha me nga whenua Maori? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore c taea c au te " Ac " atu ki tena patai, notomea kaore ano nga whenua Maori i wehewehea ki ia tangata; na reira kaore ano ratou i rite kite Pakeha. 582. Kapene Bahera : Xi to whakaaro kaore ranei c taea te ako o te Maori kia rite ki te Pakeha? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; engari kaore ano te Maori i whakawhiwhia ki tetahi kahanga mona c taea ai tena. 583. Kapene Bahera : Kei te mau tonu koe ki to kupu ka taea nga Ateha o te Kooti Whenua Maori te hoko kite moni mo te taha ki a ratou whakatau ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kei te tika taua kupu, kei te mohio tonu au. Kua kite au i taua tv mahi i korero ai au i taua kupu. Engari, me ki atu au, no nga Pakeha te he tuatahi, na ratou hoki i whakatu aua tangata hei Ateha; notemea ehara i te mea he rangatira he tangata matau ranei i whiriwhiria ai i whakaturia ai aua tangata hei Ateha i te tuatahi, he mea whakatu noa iho c etahi Pakeha. 584. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ranei koe c mahara ake ana tera ano hoki te Poari Maori c taeate hoko kite moni penei me tau c korero nei mo nga Ateha ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac; engari mehemea c tukua atu ana te mana mo te Poari ki nga Maori, a mau ana i a ratou tetahi mema o te Poari c riro ana i te moni, heoi kua ai he mana ki a ratou c taea ai c ratou te whakamutu tata i taua tangata. Kaore kau ote Maori mana c noho nei c taea ai c ratou te whakamutu i nga Ateha c mahi pera ana.

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585. Kapene Bahera : Haunga tena. Ina ke, kaore ranei c mau tonu taua tv mahi penei me mua? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac ; he pena katoa te tangata, ara, etahi tangata. 586. Kapene Bahera : Xi to whakaaro he mea pai te matauranga Pakeha, a ki to whakaaro ka taea te Maori te ako ki aua matauranga ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. : ' 587. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, kaore ranei koe c whakaaro ana me hanga kia kotahi tonu te ture mo te Maori raua ko te Pakeha mo nga mea katoa? Mohi te Atahikoia: Me ki atu au, eai ki taku c mohio ana, kotahi ano te ture mo te Maori raua ko te Pakeha mo nga mea katoa, heoi te mea i rereke ko te whenua; engari ehara ite Maori te he i rua ai nga ture, i ture ke ai mo to te Maori whenua, i ture ke ai mo to te Pakeha whenua. Na te Pakeha tena mahi. 588. Kapene Bahera: Ka pai ranei koe kia hanga etc Paremete kia kotahi tonu te ture mo te Maori raua ko te Pakeha ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Koia tena te take i tono ai matou kia hoatu he mana kite iwi Maori kia ahei ai ratou kite tino whiriwhiri aki te whakatau i tau c mea na. Xi te tau i a ratou me pena c te Paremete, kaati me pera. Otira, kite kore c tau i a ratou, ka pai noa atu ratou kia kaati tonu te ture mo ratou ko nga ture c mana nei. 589. Kapene Bahera : He tangata koe c mohio ana kite whakahaere i au ake mea ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 590. Kapene Bahera : Ko te hea te mea pai ki a koe, mau ano au mea c whakahaere, ma tetahi atu hunga toko ono toko hia ranei c whakahaere? Mohi te Atahikoia: Maku ano aku mea c whakahaere, a, kite hoatu te mana c tonoa nei, ka tono au maku ano c whakahaere aku mea, a me etahi atu tangata ano c whakahaere a ratou. 591. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ranei c taea te whakatikatika i te ture, kia riro ai mau ano c whakahaere ou whenua, kia kaua ai c hoatu ma te Poari Maori i raro i te Pire nei c whakahaere ; c ki ana hoki koe ka mohio noa atu koe kite whakahaere i ou ake whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Koia tena taku kupu. E hiahia ana ahau kia hoatu he mana ki nga Maori kia whai mana ai ratou kite hanga tikanga whakahaere mo o ratou whenua. 592. Kapene Bahera : Kaore au c hiahia ana kia korero mai koe mo te iwi nui tonu o te Maori, engari mou ake ? Mohi te Atahikoia : E pena ana taku korero. 593. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, ehara koia i te mea pai kia wehea atu ki a koe tou whenua, kia rite kite Pakeha, kia kaua ai c riro ma etahi atu tangata to whenua c whakahaere, i te mea c kore pea hoki c rite ki tau te tupato o ta ratou whakahaere i to whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 594. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, he pai rawa pea me paahi tetahi ture kia ahei ai te karaati i to whenua ki a koe, me te noho ano o etahi kupu i roto i taua ture hei arai i a koe, kia kore ai c taea c koe te hoko i o whenua katoa, kia mau ai nga whenua c rite ana hei oranga mo koutou ko to whanau a mate noa koe ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Koia tena to matou hiahia —toku hiahia hui atu ki nga iwi Maori katoa o tenei Motu. 595. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ranei koe c whakahe kite tukua atu ma etahi atu tangata o whenua c whakahaere, te waiho ai ki a koe anake te tikanga mo ou whenua? Mohi te Atahikoia : E kore ano c tika kia penatia. E kore c puta he painga kite riro oku whenua ma tetahi atu c whakahaere; ko ta matou mea tuatahi rawa c hiahia ana kia herea o matou whenua kia kaua c puare kite hoko, kia oti rawa tera te whakamana katahi ka tuku mai ma matou ano c whakahaere. 596. Kapene Bahera : I korero koe kei te whakahe te Maori ki a ratou c tonoa nei kia utu i te taake-whenua, ite reiti, ite taake-kuri, me nga moni utu ruri. Kei te mohio ranei koe c eke katoa ana aua tv taake ki runga ki nga whenua o te Pakeha. Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac; engari kaore te Pakeha c taea te tono kia utu i te ruritanga o tona whenua mehemea ehara i a ia i whakahau, mehemea ranei kaore ia i hiahia kia ruritia tona whenua; tena ko nga Maori riro ai ma nga Pakeha c aki noa atu te ruri ki runga ki o ratou whenua, kia mutu tera ka whakamahia nga Maori kia utu i aua ruri. Na, mo te taake kuri, kei te mohio matou kite raruraru i puta nei ki Ngapuhi mo taua taake-kuri. He Maori hoki aua iwi na reira ka tika au kia ki kei te whakahe nga Maori ki taua taake kuri. 597. Kapene Bahera : Xi to mahara mehemea he Pakeha aua Maori o Ngapuhi 1 takahi ra i te ture taake kuri, ka pera ano ranei te aroha o te Kawanatanga, c kore ranei c hopukia i taua wa tonu kite whareherehere ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Kei te mohio te Pakeha ki ona ture, tena ko te Maori kaore ano i tino mohio ki aua ture. I haere mai te Pakeha i Ingarangi me ona ture hoki, na reira ka mohio ia ki ona ture katoa. 598. Kapene Bahera : Ka tika ranei kia waiho te kuri a te Maori hei kai i nga hipi a te tangata c noho ana i te taha o tona kainga ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore. E kore ano c tika kia waiho te kuri a tetahi tangata kia kai i nga taonga a tetahi atu tangata. He take tika ano tena hei whakatau, ko te hea kuri c patua kia mate, to te hea kuri c waiho kia ora, ahe ngawari noa iho te whakatau o tena take. He tangata ano he hipi ana, a koi ra tona oranga, he tangata ano he kuri whakangau kau puihi mahi manu ranei tana, a koi ra tona oranga. 599. Kapene Bahera : Me pehea nga hipi a tona hoa ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Ka he ra ena kia mate : engari tenei ano te ture mo tena, kite ngau te kuri i te hipi ka taea te tono kia utua te hipi c te tangata nana.

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600. Kapene Bahera : He tangata Maori koe kua akona ki nga kura, a kaore ranei koe c mohio ana, me kotahi te ture mo nga iwi c rua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac; kua korero atu ano au kotahi ano te ture mo nga iwi c rua, ara, nga ture epa ana kite tangata, engari kei te taenga ki nga whenua ka rereke. Ko te whenua anake te mea i whakarereketia ona ture. 601. Kapene Bahera : Akiakina ai koia te Maori c te ture kia hoko i tona whenua? Mohi te Atahikoia :Ac ra. Kua korero atu nei hoki matou kite Komiti nei i a tatou c noho nei, kei te haere tonu te mahi hoko whenua. 602. Kapene Bahera: Kaore koia ite Maori ano te tikanga kite hoko kite pupuri ranei i tona whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : E tika ana tena ; engari c penei ana: E rua nga tangata; ko tetahi o raua c hiahia ana kite moni ko tetahi c hiahia ana kite whenua, a whakawhitiwhitingia ake c raua te moni a tetahi kite whenua a tetahi, na ka uaua ano te ki ko te hea o raua te mea i mahi he. 603. Kapene Bahera: Ina pea te huarahi hei whakamutu i tena ahua, me Karauna-karaati ki ia Maori tona whenua, engari me rahui tetahi wahi a kaua rawa c taea te mokete te hoko ranei hei oranga mo ratou ko tona whanau a matemate noa ratou ? Mohi te Atahikoia : He tikanga pai rawa tena. 604. Kapene Bahera: Ite mea kua rite iaia he oranga mo ratou ko tona whanau, me pehea c ia te toenga o ana whenua kihai ra i rahuitia, notemea kei te utu te Pakeha i nga reiti, i nga taake, ite nga taake kuri, me era atu mea? He aha te take kia kore nga whenua Maori c utu hoki i aua mea ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Tukuna kia riihitia c ratou aua whenua, kia whiwhi ai i te moni hei utu i aua reiti me aua taake. 605. Kapene Bahera: Ac; engari c whakaae ana koe me utu nga taake, kotahi ano hoki te ture mo nga iwi c rua ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Kaore ano ra nga Maori i whakaae ki tena, notemea i era atu tau ko te kai-tango i te riihi te tangata nana i utu aua taake. I naianei kua tonoa ma nga Maori c utu, a kaore ano ratou i whakaae ki taua tikanga. 606. Henare Kaihau: Kei te penei pea te tikanga o to whakahoki i te patai: he tika nga Maori kia utu i nga reiti i nga taake me era atu mea penei ano me nga Pakeha c utu nei, engari ko te hiahia o nga Maori me utu atu aua mea c ratou kite ringa ote Kaunihera, ote Poari ranei, c tonoa nei c ratou kia whakaturia hei whakahaere i a ratou whenua me a ratou mea katoa ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore c taea eau te utu o tena patai. Kaore ano au i mohio kua whakaturia tena Kaunihera hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori. 607. Kapene Bahera : Ka pai ranei koe kia kokirihia c au, c tetahi atu tangata ranei, tetahi Pire kite Whare hei wehewehe i nga whenua ki ia tangata kia whiwhi ai ia tangata i tona ake whenua, a hei herehere i etahi o ana whenua kia kore rawa ai c taea te hoko, te riihi, te tuku ranei, kia kore rawa ai te tangata nona c rokohanga c te rawakore? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ka penei taku utu mo to patai: he pai rawa ki au kaua koe c mahi i tetahi Pire mau, c tohutohu renei i tetahi Pire kia mahia, mo nga whenua Maori, engari kia mohio ra ano koe ki nga ahua katoa o tenei putake katahi ka tika kia pena koe. Ko taku hiahia me nuku tenei Pire mo tera tau, a i mua mai o taua wa me haere te Pirimia me te Kai-arahi o te Apitihana ki nga wahi katoa o te Motu nei, a ma raua ano c kimi c uiui haere kia tino mohio ai raua ki nga tikanga katoa o tenei putake me nga mate me nga whakaaro ote iwi Maori. Me tae raua ki nga hui katoa a te Maori puta noa i te Motu nei, kia whakarongo ai raua ki nga whakaaro o te iwi Maori. 608. Kapene Bahera: Xi to whakaaro ka whakaae ranei te Paremete ki tetahi Poari Maori motuhake rawa atu i nga Pakeha—kaua rawa c pa atu c uru atu ranei nga Pakeha ki taua mea? Mohi te Atahikoia: Kei te Whare Paremete rate tikanga mo tena; kaore c taea cau te korero oku whakaaro mo tena. Mehemea ko au te tangata mana c whakaae tena pea au eki " Ac," engari kaore i a matou te whakaaetanga mo tena, ko te Paremete te hunga mana c whakaae tena. 609. Kapene Bahera : Xi te kore c whakaaetia te Poari Maori, ki to whakaaro kaore ranei c pai taku tikanga i korero ake ra ? Mohi te Atahikoia: Ac; engari ko taku hiahia ko nga Pire, ko nga tikanga, ko nga aha atu ranei, c meatia ana kia mahia mo nga Maori, me matua tuku atu kia whiriwhiria c te iwi Maori ite tuatahi, katahi ka tuku ai kite Whare. He tikanga no te iwi Maori—he tohu nona puta noa i ona iwi, ahakoa kei te mohio ia kite pai rawa o te Pire c meatia ana kia mahia, otira, notemea kaore i tukua atu i te tuatahi kia kite ia, ka whakakinongia eia taua mea. Xi taku titiro he pera ano hoki te Pakeha. 610. Te Kahana :Xi to whakaaro he rite tahi te Maori me te Pakeha te mohio kite whakahaere i ana mea ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kaore rate Maori i akona kite kura i mua, na reira he maha nga mea kei te ngaro i a ratou ; engari tenei etahi taitamariki kei nga kura c noho ana i naianei, a he mohio ake ratou i nga Maori kaumatua mo nga mea c puta mai ana i te taha Pakeha. 611. Kapene Bahera: E mohio ana koe ki Hatuma Poraka, takiwa o Haaki Pei? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac. 612. Kapene Bahera : E mohio ana koe kua tangohia i te tangata nona, ahakoa te kaha me te whai moni o taua tangata, te take i tangohia ai he nui rawa no ona whenua ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Kua rongo au. 613. Kapene Bahera : Kaore o wehi kei peratia hoki te iwi Maori ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Xi taku whakaaro me pa tena ture ki nga Pakeha anake. Kaua c whakahaerea ki runga ki nga whenua Maori, notemea kotahi tonu to te Maori whenua ko Niu Tireni

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anake. Tena ko te Pakeha kei aiate ao katoa, ahe takoto noa iho kite Pakeha te haere ki nga whenua i waho atu o Niu Tireni tango whenua ai mona. Xi te murua to te Maori whenua kaore c taea c ia te haere ki tetahi atu motu. 614. Kapene Bahera: iUiakoa he mahi tika, ahakoa he mahi he, ki to whakaaro tera ranei c pera a ko ake nei ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Aua. Taku kupu, kaua rawa he ture pera te ahua c tukuna kia paahitia mo nga whenua Maori. 615. Kapene Bahera : Kaore koia koe c whakaaro ana tera pea c paahitia he ture pera te ahua? Mohi te Atahikoia: Pera ai ano. Ka taea noa atu hoki c te Pakeha te hanga ana ture c pai ai. 616. Kapene Bahera: Kaati, kaore koia c pai kia wawahia te whenua kia ririki nga poraka ka wehewehe ai ki ia tangata hei arai atu mo tena ture kia kore ai nga whenua nunui c taea te tango. Mohi te Atahikoia: Ac, kei te pai au ki tena. Kotahi tonu te uaua o tena, kei te whai moni etahi, tangata kei te kore whai moni etahi tangata, hei utu i te ruritanga o nga wawahanga o te whenua kia ririki nga piihi, na reira tera c tere ko nga mea whai moni kite wawahi ito ratou whenua, a c turikore ko nga mea kore moni. 617. Kapene Bahera: Kia hiki tenei huihuinga o te Paremete ka whakaae ranei koe kite whakatakoto atu i aku tohutohu kite aroaro o te iwi Maori kia whiriwhiria c ratou ? Mohi te Atahikoia : Ac; ka whakatakotoria katoatia c au nga korero tohutohu katoa kite aroaro o nga iwi; engari c marama ai ta ratou whakaaro mo au korero me aku korero me whakamaori, kia taea ai eau te hari ki nga hui. Ka tae au ki nga hui katoa. Te Rawhiti : Ka karangatia, ka whai korero, ka patairia. 618. Te Tiamana : E hiahia ana noe kite whai-korero i te tuatahi ? Te Bawhiti: E hiahia ana au kite whai-korero poto. Tuatahi, ka mihi atu au kite Tiamana me nga mema ote Komiti. He tautoko taku i nga kupu a nga kai-whakahoki patai o mua iau mo ta matou pitihana. Ko matou c noho nei i Poneke he mea tuku mai c nga iwi Maori c whakahe ana kite Pire c takoto nei ite aroaro ote Komiti nei, hei mangai mo ratou hei whakaatu i nga take i whakahe ai ratou. Itu he huihui ma matou ko te Pirimia kite whare kura i Hirini Tiriti. I oti i a matou i reira, kite kore c pau katoa atu kite Pirimia o matou whakaaro mo te Pire i taua ra tera ano c homai tetahi atu taima mo matou. I ki mai te Pirimia i taua ra ki a matou, kite hunga c whakahe ana ite Pire, kaore ano i oti i a matou tetahi Pire, tetahi tikanga, tetahi whakaaro ranei, etahi tohutohu ranei, hei whakakapi i tana Pire—kei te rangi o matou whakaaro, kei roto i nga whetu c tirotiro ana. Katahi matou ka tono atu kia kite matou i tana tino Pire, kia ki mai ia mehemea koi rate Pire i haria haeretia cia ki nga hui Maori, he mea ke ranei tera. Xi mai ana ia ki a matou ko te Pire i whakatakotoria eia kite aroaro o nga hui Maori koi ra tana Pire, engari ka whakaaturia mai ciaki a matou te Pire hei whakatakoto mana kite Whare. I to matou kitenga i te Pire, kite ana matou he maha rawa atu ona tekiona i to te Pire tuatahi i haria haeretia nei eia ki nga hui Maori ote Motu nei. Na, ko nga tangata c whakahe nei kite Pire c whakahe ana ke kite Pire tuatahi i haria haeretia ra cia ki nga hui Maori, notemea kaore ano ratou i kite noa i tenei c takoto nei, aki taku mohio kite kite ratou i tenei Pire katahi ka tino kaha rawa atu ta ratou whakahe, Kua oti katoa i aTe Heuheu te whakapuaki atu kite Komiti nei a matou whakaaro me nga take i whakahe ai matou kite Pire i runga i tona ahua c takoto nei. Na reira, me ki poto atu au, kei te tautoko au i nga kupu a Te Heuheu i korero ai mo tenei Pire. Kotahi te korero a Te Heuheu kaore c taea c au te tautoko, ara ko tana korero mo te Kauhanganui me te Kotahitanga, ka peka ke taku ita Te Heuheu. He penei taku : ahakoa kei ta te Kauhanganui etahi iwi kei ta te Kotahitanga etahi iwi, ko te tikanga he kotahi tonu ratou. Ko ta ratou pitihana, kua tae mai nei ki konei, he mea haina c te tekau mano tangata, ano he whakaaro kotahi he iwi kotahi, c whakahe katoa ana i te Pire, kaore kau he kupu i roto i te pitihana, hei whakaatu mai he tikanga ke ta te Kauhanganui he tikanga ke ta te Kotahitanga. Kaore c penei ana nga kupu, "Ko etahi o matou kei te tautoko ite Kauhanganui ko etahi kei te hapai i te Kotahitanga." Na reira au i korero atu ai kia marama ai te titiro a te Komiti nei, kei mahara koutou c noho pakaru ana matou, c rua wahanga he Kauhanganui tetahi he Kotahitanga tetahi. Kaore ite pera. Kotahi tonu to matou whakaaro mo tenei Pire. Ko Herepete tetahi i korero kite Komiti, he tikanga ke ta Waikato he tikanga ke ta te Kotahitanga. Ko te utu poto mo tena ko te hui itu ki Wahi, Waikato, ite marama o Maehe kua taha ake nei. I tae nga iwi katoa ki reira a kaore ratou i pakaru. I tae ki reira nga rangatira ote Tai Rawhiti me te Tai Hauauru, a kotahi tonu to ratou whakaaro. Kaore rawa he pakaru i roto i a ratou. Na reira au ka mea kaua te Komiti nei c pohehe i nga korero a Herepete, c mahara c rua nga wehenga o te iwi Maori, he Kauhanganui tetahi he Kotahitanga tetahi. Kaore ite pera. Heoi ano aku korero hei tautoko ita matou pitihana hei whakamarama atu i te take i tukua mai ai c matou taua mea hei whakahe mo te Pire. 619. Kapene Bahera: Ka pera ano te aronga o aku patai ki a koe me aku patai kite kaiwhakahoki patai kua mutu ake nei. Mehemea he mira huri paraoa, mira kani rakau, mira harakeke ranei, he whenua ranei, ta tetahi Maori, a c riro ana mana ano aua mea c whakahaere, he pai ke atu pea tera i te riro ma tetahi Poari c whakahaere, ahakoa he Pakeha he Maori ranei nga tangata o taua Poari ? Te Bawhiti :. Ac, he pai tena. 620. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ha, ko te mea pai me tahuri pea te Paremete kite hanga ture kia wehewehea ai ki ia tangata Maori ona whenua, a kaua c tukua atu ma tetahi Poari c whakahaere, ahakoa he Pakeha anake, ahakoa he Maori anake, ahakoa he Maori he Pakeha ranei ona mema? Te Bawhiti : Ac. Koia tena te take i tono ai nga Maori kia hoatu he mana ki a ratou, notemea he kino rawa nga ture i hanga mo ratou me a ratou whenua, kia riro ai ma ratou ano c hanga he ture mo ratou kia taea ai nga mea c korerotia mama c koe.

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621. Kapene Bahera: Xi te kore c whakaaetia te Poari c hiahiatia nei c koutou, kaore ranei c pai kia kimihia tetahi atu tikanga ? Te Bawhiti: Ac; engari me tuku atu ite tuatahi kia kite nga Maori. 622. Kapene Bahera: Mai ano otera i timata ai to mohio ki nga mahi ote ao tae mai ki tenei ra, kei te mohio ano ranei koe ki tetahi mana motuhake i tino tukua atu c te Pakeha kite iwi Maori ? Te Bawhiti : Kaore. 623: Kapene Bahera : Ai te mea kaore i tukua atu taua mana i nga wa kua pahemo nei katahi ranei ka hoatu kei nga tau c takoto ake nei ? Te Bawhiti: Kotahi tonu te mea nana i pera ai nga whakaaro ote iwi Maori, ara, ko te mahi i mahia nei mo nga whenua o Tuhoe. I paahitia hoki he ture motuhake kia ahei ai o reira Maori ki te whakahaere ito ratou whenua. Koia tera te mea kua korerotia mai ki au. 624. Kapene Bahera : Kei te mohio ranei koe kite take o taua ture ? Te Bawhiti: Kaore. Heoi ano taku c mohio ana i hanga he ture motuhake mo taua takiwa. 625. Kapene Bahera : E mohio ana ranei koe kite pito angiangi o te weeti ? Te Bawhiti: Ac. 626. Kapene Bahera: E mohio ana ranei koe kei a wai te mooro c pupuri ana ? Te Bawhiti : Kei te Kawanatanga ra hoki. 627. Kapene Bahera : He aha te rakau ka wahia ? Te Bawhiti: Ko nga Maori me o ratou whenua. 628. Kapene Bahera : E hiahia ana ahau kite awhina i nga Maori kei wahia kia pakaru? Te Bawhiti: Ac. 629. Kapene Bahera: Xi to whakaaro c kore ranei c pai ake i ta te Poari whakahaere mehemea ka wehea ki ia tangata tona whenua, me te rahui ano i etahi whenua, kaua rawa c taea te hoko te tuku ranei, hei oranga mona me tana whanau. Te Bawhiti : Ac ; ko tena te tikanga pai rawa. 630. Kapene Bahera : A he aha te whakaae ai ki tena tikanga ? Te Bawhiti : Notemea, i nga tau kua pahemo, i te hoatutanga o tetahi tikanga kia hanga hei ture te putanga mai rereke ana te takato, na reira, kua tino tupato te iwi Maori ki ena tv tohutohu. Xi te titiro atu ka nui te ahau pai mai, engari tena pea kei te whakahaerenga rereke ana i ta nga Maori i mahara ai. 631. Kapene Bahera: Xi te hoatu he piihi whenua ki tetahi tangata hei whenua mo ratou ko tana whanau, me te ki atu ano ki a ia c kore rawa c taea c ia te mokete te hoko ranei, kei hea he paanga atu mo te mate ki a ia. Te Bawhiti: E penei ana taku titiro :he nui rawa no te kino epa ana ki nga Maori i nga ture, kua kite nga Maori kaore kau he painga o aua ture. Na reira ratou i haere mai ai ki konei kite tono kia tukua atu ma ratou ano c hanga he ture mo ratou. 632. Kapene Bahera: E tino whakapono ana to ngakau ka tukuna atu ano he mana kite iwi Maori kia ahei ai ratou kite hanga ture ? Te Bawhiti : Kaore au i te whakapono ka tukua mai taua mana ki a ratou, engari me ki atu au ko te Paremete, c kaiponu nei i taua mana ki nga Maori, kaore hoki c whakaae ana ki tenei: ara, ehara ta nga Maori c tono nei i te tono he, engari c tono ana i raro i te mana o te Tiriti o Waitangi, i te mea nana i whakapumau o ratou tika ki a ratou. 633. Kapene Bahera : Mehemea, kite riro i taku tikanga c tohutohu nei, ka wehea atu tetahi piihi whenua ki tetahi tangata, here rawa i taua whenua kia kore ai c taea te hoko, kia ai ai tera hei oranga mona me tona whanau, engari tena ano etahi atu whenua ona i waho atu i taua whenua i wehea ra ki a ia, he pai rawa pea kia hokona atu c ia era o ona whenua kaore ra c taea ana c ia te mahi te noho ranei a runga, a ka hoko ai i etahi parau, whare, kau, me era atu taonga, ka hari atu ki runga kite whenua kua wehea ra ki aia ? He tika ka riro tetahi taha o tona whenua ite hoko, engari c hoatu ana nga moni i puta mai i te hoko hei whakapai i tera o ana whenua kua wehea ra ki a ia ? Te Bawhiti: E tika ana ; koia tena te hiahia o nga Maori. 634. Kapene Bahera: Kaati ha, i tana whiriwhiringa i ena mea, ka tahuri pea ia kite whakatupu i ana hipi, i ana kau, i ana oti, me ana witi, kia pai rawa ake i a tona hoa c noho tata ana ki a ia, a ma era mahi ka neke ake hoki te pai o taua tangata ? Te Bawhiti: Ac. 635. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ha, ko te mea tika pea ma tatou, me mahi he ture kia pena ? Te Bawhiti : Koia tena to matou hiahia, engari kite mahia he Pire pena te ahua, ko to matou hiahia me tuku i te tuatahi kia kite nga hui Maori, kia whiriwhiria c ratou, a kia whiriwhiria tahitia hoki c koutou me ratou ki reira. Kaore nga iwi Maori c mohio ana kite mahi c mahia nei, ki nga huarahi c oti ai he ture. He kuare no ratou ki nga tikanga me nga whakahaere c oti ai enei tv mahi i tono ai ratou kia tukua atu ma ratou ano c mahi. 636. Kapene Bahera: Engari mehemea kaore c taea te tuku atu ma ratou anake c hanga, me pehea. Kua ki mai hoki koe, i naia tata nei, kaore rawa c hokia ana etc Kawanatanga a muri, kaore rawa c whakahokia c ia tenei mea te mana, a c kore c whakahokia c ia tana i tango ai i nga Maori. Kaore ranei c pai kia hanga he Pire penei te ahua me taku c korero nei ka tuku atu ki nga iwi Maori a mo tera tau ka hari mai kite Paremete ? Te Bawhiti : Ka pai ra tena. Engari me tuku atu taua Pire ki nga hui Maori katoa puta noa i tenei motu. 637. Kapene Bahera : He Maori ano i whakanohoia ki runga ki tona whenua i runga i taku tikanga c tohutohu atu nei, he tangata Maori ano i tuku atu i tana whenua ma te Poari c whakahaere ; ko nga tamariki a te hea ra o enei tangata nga mea c hipa ake te kaha me te mohio ana tupu ake ? Te Bawhiti: Ko nga tamariki ate tangata i noho tuturu i mahi tonu i tona ake whenua.

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638. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, he aha te whakaaetia ai taku tikanga c tohutohu nei ? Te Bawhiti : E ki atu ana au koia tena te mea c hiahia ana nga Maori kia taea c ratou. 639. Kapene Bahera: Kaati, kia hiki te Paremete ka whakaae ranei koe kite haere ki nga hui Maori kauhau haere ai i te tikanga kua tohutohungia atu nei c au ? Te Bawhiti: Ac ; engari me tuku mai kia kite matou ito tikanga. Ahe pai rawa atu hoki koe kia haere ki aua hui kite whakamarama haere i to tikanga, a ko au he hoa mou, kia haere tahi ai taua ki nga hui, kia tv kite korero kite whakamarama atu ki nga iwi i te ahua o to tikanga, a ki te kite ratou he tikanga pai tau, he mea c taea ana te whakahaere a he mea c tika ana kia whakaaetia, heoi, kua huri mai i kona nga iwi Maori ki ta taua tikanga tautoko ai. 640. Wi Pere : Ka patai au ki a koe mo tetahi mea i puta ake i roto i tetahi o nga patai a Kapene Rahera i patai nei ki a koe i tenei ra, a i whakaaetia atu c koe taua mea. Ko te hea tv rahui tau c whakaae nei i runga i te patai a Kapene Rahera ki a koe —ara, mehemea he pai ki tau whakaaro kia wehewehea nga whenua o nga Maori ki ia tangata, a ko nga wahi c tika ana hei oranga mo nga tangata ko era c rahui ? Te Bawhiti : Ko te here tuturu. 641. Wi Pere : Me pehea? Te Bawhiti : Me rahui me herehere rawa kia kore ai te whenua i wehea hei oranga mo te iwi c taea te hoko. 642. Wi Pere : Ka hinga tetahi Kawanatanga ka tv mai he Kawanatanga hou ka wewete i te here ote whenua i herea ra, koia tera tau here c mea nei ? E hiahia ana au kia mohio au ki tau here; ko te tv here koia c taea nei c tetahi Kawanatanga te here ki runga kite whenua a c taea nei c tetahi atu Kawanatanga te wewete ? Te Bawhiti : Ko taku c mea ana ko te here c kore rawa c taea te wewete. 643. Wi Pere : A me rohe mai ranei nga tau c mau ai te here i runga i te whenua, me mau tonu ranei mo nga tau katoa ? Te Bawhiti: Mo nga tau katoa. Henare Kaihau : I rongo au i a koe c korero ana kei te tautoko koe i nga korero aTe Heuheu ? Te Bawhiti: Ac ;mo te taha ki ta matou pitihana. 645. Henare Kaihau : E mohio ana koe i korero a Te Heuheu me Maori anake nga mema o te Runanga? Te Bawhiti : Ac. 646. Henare Kaihau: A c mohio ana koe kua paahitia c tenei koroni etahi ture epa ana ki nga tangata, kite moana, ki nga mahi, otira ki nga mea katoa c taea ana c te whakaaro ? Te Bawhiti: Ac. 647. Henare Kaihau: Xi te tukua atu ki nga Maori te mana c tonoa nei c ratou, aka whakaturia te Runanga he Maori anake ona mema—ara, te Runanga, te Kaunihera ranei, te Poari ranei, te aha ranei he ingoa mona —he aha te mahi tuatahi a taua hunga mo te taha ki nga whenua ? Te Bawhiti: Xi taku whakaaro ka huihuia c ratou nga iwi ite tuatahi, ka rupeke nga iwi, katahi ka whakatakotoria ka whakariteritea nga tikanga whakahaere. 648. Henare Kaihau: Haunga tena. E mohio ana koe, ma hoki c whakaae ana koe, tenei etahi ture c mana nei i naianei i ahei ai te Kooti Whenua Maori kite whakatau i nga take whenua, i ahei ai te Tari o te Kooti Whenua Maori kite whakaputa i nga taitara, i ahei ai te Tari Ruri kite whakahaere i nga ruri, i ahei ai etahi atu tari kite kohikohi i nga tiute me etahi atu mea. Na, me pehea c taea ai c te iwi Maori te whakahaere enei mea katoa ? Te Bawhiti: Me tuku atu he mana ki a ratou. 649. Me pehea te taha kite Kuini? I te mea ko te Kuini te kai-awhina i nga Maori, kite tukua mai te mana c tonoa nei c nga Maori, a ka riro ma ratou c whakahaere enei mea katoa, me pehea te Kuini ? Kaua ranei ia c whiwhi i etahi o nga painga tera c puta ki nga Maori i raro ita ratou tikanga whakahaere ? Te Bawhiti: Ka taea ano te Kuini me etahi atu mea te whakaaro. 650. Henare Kaihau : Xi te whakaturia te Runanga a kite hoatu ki a ia te mana c tonoa nei, a kite whakahaua c ia kia mahia he ruri a ka riro atu i a ratou nga moni mo aua ruri, ka wehea ranei c te Runanga tetahi taha o aua moni ma te Kuini? Te Bawhiti: Xi te tau i te Runanga me wehe tetahi taha ote moni ma te Kuini, kaati ka peratia; kite tau ite Runanga kaua he moni c wehea ma te Kuini, kaati c kore c wehea. 651. Henare Kaihau : Xi to whakaaro, kite kore te Kuini c whakaarohia, he mahi tika ranei tera ma te Runanga kite Kuini, kite wahine rangatira nana nei ratou i awhina, nana nei i ahei ai ratou kite tono i te mana c tonoa nei c ratou i raro i te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Te Bawhiti : Xi taku whakaaro, kite tau i te Runanga me pera, ka tika ano kia kaua c utua atu kite Kuini etahi o aua moni, a kite tau i te Runanga me hoatu, ka tika kia utua atu etahi o aua moni kite Kuini. 652. Henare Kaihau: Kaati c penei ana te tikanga oto kupu me hoatu ano etahi ma te Kuini ? Te Bawhiti : Kua ki atu nei hoki au " Ac." 653. Henare Kaihau: E rua o korero. Kua korero koe kite kite Runanga " Kaore," heoi kua " Kaore." Katahi au ka vi atu, aki te tau ite Runanga me utu ka utua ranei, ka ki mai koe ac ka utua. Na reira, c penei ana pea tau " Ac." Otira, kaati ake tenei patai. 654. Henare Kaihau : Me pehea ki tau te tikanga c utua ai nga reiti o nga whenua Maori, ara, kite tukua atu he mana mo te Runanga ? Te Bawhiti: Xi taku mohio na te nui ona reiti c utaina ana ki runga ki nga Maori i whakahe ai nga Maori ki aua reiti, ki taku whakaaro me hawhe aua reiti. 655. Henare Kaihau : Me utu ki a wai taua hawhe? Te Bawhiti: Xi nga Maori ra hoki. Na ratou hoki a nga reiti Maori.

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656. Henare Kaihau : Me pehea te Kuini me te Kawanatanga o Niu Tireni ? Te Bawhiti : Kua utua atu na hoki eau tena patai. Xi te tau ite Runanga me wehe etahi o nga reiti ma te Kawanatanga, ma te Runanga c pera. Xi te kitea c te Runanga kaore c tika kia peratia, kaati c kore c peratia. 657. Henare Kaihau : Pehea tau ake whakaaro—haunga te Runanga? Te Bawhiti : Xi te riro ma nga Maori c tono aua reiti kaati me utu ano ki nga Maori. Te Tiamana : Ko c hea reiti tana c korero nei—ko nga reiti ranei mo nga rori ? Henare Kaihau : Ko nga reiti o nga whenua. Te Tiamana : Hei hanga i nga rori ? Henare Kaihau : Ac. Te Tiamana (kite kai-whakahoki patai) : Kaati, kite kore nga Maori c utu reiti ma wai c hanga nga rori ? Te Bawhiti : Ma nga Maori c hanga. Xi te whakaaetia to ratou Runanga ka whai mana te Runanga kite tono reiti hei mahi i nga rori. Te Tiamana: Na reira kaore he tikanga c hawhe ai nga reiti c utua katoa ai ranei ? Te Bawhiti : Ko te tikanga o taku whakahoki kia Henare Kaihau c penei ana : he nui rawa no nga reiti c utua ana c nga Maori i naianei na reira ratou i whakahe ai, a kite tukua atu te mana c tonoa nei c ratou mo to ratou Runanga, katahi ka riro ma te Runanga te ritenga mo te nui mo te iti ranei o nga reiti c tonoa ana c te Runanga kia utua, a ka riro ma te Runanga c whakahaere aua reiti ki runga ki nga mahi c tika ana. 660. Henare Kaihau : I korero pea ianei koe me hawhe nga reiti a nga Maori ? Te Bawhiti : Ac. 661. Henare Kaihau : Kei te takahi pea tena i nga ture a te Kuini i tenei Motu, i nga ture o Ingarangi, me nga ture o nga whenua katoa o te ao ? Te Bawhiti : Ac; kei te mohio au ki tena. 662. Henare Kaihau : Mehemea c pera ana, me pehea c taea ai tenei ? Te Bawhiti : Kua korero ake ra hoki au i te tuatahi, c tono ana nga Maori i te mana i raro i tetahi wahi ote Tiriti o Waitangi—e ki nei ki a ratou ano te mana whakahaere mo o ratou whenua, mo o ratou taonga, me a ratou mea katoa. Na reira kaore tenei c takahi ite ture. Ko tetahi taha tonu tenei o te ture. 663. Henare Kaihau : Engari kaore tena c marama ana, notemea c ki ana koe ma nga Maori ano c kohikohi nga reiti o o ratou whenua, a me whai mana ratou kite hoko, kite pupuri ranei i o ratou whenua; engari eki ana te Tiriti o Waitangi ma te ture c tohutohu te huarahi ki nga iwi o Niu Tireni, me noho ratou i roto i te ture penei me Ingarangi, a ko te Ture nona te mana c kohikohia nei nga reiti i tenei Motu he mea kape mai i nga ture o Ingarangi. Na reira ka patai atu au ki a koe mehemea c penei ana te tikanga o tau me hawhe nga reiti c kohikohia ana c te Runanga, c te Kaunihera, c te Poari ranei, i roto i ona rohe, ma te iwi Maori tetahi taha ma- te Kuini tetahi taha, i peratia ai hei tohu kaore ta te Runanga ite takahi ite ture. Koia pea tenei te tikanga oto korero ? Te Bawhiti: I aronui tonu taku korero tuatahi. Kaore au i whakamarama haere i aku korero. Ko te patai o muri iho c mea ana me tohutohu au mo nga reiti, a korero atu ana au kite titiro a nga Maori he nui te mate c pa ana ki a ratou i runga i nga reiti c tonoa ana mo o ratou whenua i naianei na reira ka kimi i tetahi tikanga hei whakaora i to ratou mate. Nintwa-ki-te-Rangi : Ka karangatia kite aroaro o te Komiti, ka patairia. 664. Te Tiamana : E hiahia ana koe kite korero kite Komiti ? Niniwa: He whakamarama taku kite Komiti kua roa matou ko toku taha c whiriwhiri ana, a tau ana i a matou kaore rawa he korero i mahue i nga kai-korero o to matou taha mo tenei Pire. Kaore kau he mea i mahue hei korerotanga maku. 665. Tiaki Tiwini : Ko te hea te mea pai ki a koe hei whakatau i nga whenua, ko te Komiti Maori ko te Kooti Whenua Maori ranei ? Niniwa: Xi taku whakaaro ko te Komiti Maori te mea pai. 666. Tiaki Tiwini : I rongo koe i te korero a tetahi o nga kai-whakahoki patai: kia wha nga komiti Maori mo Niu Tireni katoa ? Niniwa : Kaore au c korero i naianei kia wha kia maha atu ranei nga Komiti Maori. 667. Tiaki Tiwini: He iti rawa ranei te wha ; kite wha tonu nga komiti he maha nga tau c pau i te mahi wehewehe i nga whenua ? Niniwa: He iti rawa pea te wha, he pai kia maha atu. 668. Tiaki Tiwini : I rongo ano pea hoki koe ki nga kupu whakahe mo nga mahi a nga Ateha Maori o te Kooti. Niniwa: Ac. 669. Tiaki Tiwini : Me maha ake pea nga Komiti Maori i nga Tiati o te Kooti Whenua Maori c tv nei hei whakatau i nga raruraru me nga tautohetohe c pa ana ki nga whenua Maori ? Niniwa : Ko te mahi a te Kooti he haereere tonu ki ia wahi ki ia wahi, engari ko nga komiti Maori c korerotia nei ka noho tuturu ki ona wahi ki ona wahi o te Motu nei, kaore c nuku haere ki etahi wahi. 670. Tiaki Tiwini : Me utu ano pea nga komiti Maori nei ? Niniwa : Xi taku whakaaro kaore pea ratou c mea kia utua ratou; he Maori hoki ratou, na reira kaore c tono kia utua ratou. 671. Tiaki Tiwini : He rite pea ratou kite moa, he haute kai ? Niniwa : Ka rite ano ratou ki etahi atu Maori, kaore c tono kia utua ratou mo nga mahi katoa c mahia ana c ratou. Engari kite eke ratou ki runga ki nga tereina ki nga paki, ka utua ratou mo era tv mea, a kite noho ratou i nga hotera ka utua ano ratou mo tera.

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672. Tiahi Tiwini: Kaati, ki to whakaaro kite riro i tau c korero na kua mama te koroni kua kore c pau ana moni i te Kooti Whenua Maori c tv nei, a ka oti katoa ana mahi i nga Maori i runga i te tikanga kore utu ? Ninhva : Ac; ki taku me tuku atu ma nga Maori c mahi. 673. Tiaki Tiwini: Me whakarite ranei etahi karaka tuhituni me etahi kai-whakamaori mo ratou, penei me te Kooti Whenua Maori c tv nei ? Niniwa: He aha te mahi ma nga kai-whakamaori i te mea he Maori nga tangata c mahi ra i nga whenua ote Maori ? Xi te tupono he Pakeha, ahe keehi tana ka mahia etc komiti Maori, ma taua Pakeha c whakarite he kai-whakamaori mona. 674. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaore koia c maha ana nga keehi c ara ana i ia wa mo nga take whenua c raruraru ana i waenganui i nga Pakeha me nga Maori, c tika ana kia haria atu ma te komiti Maori c whakatau ? Niniwa : Ac ; c tika ana tena. Me whakarite he moni mo ena tv keehi. 675. Tiaki Tiwini: Ma wai c whakarite ena moni ? Ma nga Maori c whakarite, ma nga Pakeha ranei ? Niniwa : Ma nga Maori c whakarite aua moni. Me riihi c ratou o ratou whenua, kei reira he moni. E noho nei ratou i Poneke ko ratou ano kei te utu i a ratou. 676. Tiaki Tiwini: Xi te whakaturia te komiti Maori pena me tau c hiahia na, he aha ki tau he mahi ma ratou ? Ma ratou c whakatau nga hapu mo ratou te whenua, ma ratou ranei c wehewehe te whenua ki ia tangata ? Niniwa : Xi taku ma te komiti c whakawa nga whenua papatupu. 677. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaore kau ra he whenua papatupu i naianei. Ka taea ranei c koe te whakaatu mai kei hea etahi ? Niniwa : Kei te pena pea; kaore kau he whenua papatupu o toku takiwa. 678. Tiaki Tiwini : Me pehea ki tau te whakahaere a te komiti Maori mo nga whenua kua tau i te Kooti ? Niniwa : Xi te kitea c ratou i he te whakatau a te Kooti i etahi o aua whenua, me whai mana te komiti Maori kite whakatikatika i aua whakatau. 679. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaati, koia tera he mahi ma te komiti Maori he hurahura haere i nga mahi kua oti i te Kooti te mahi ? Niniwa : Ac; koia tena tetahi o nga mahi ma te komiti Maori—he whakatikatika i nga mea i hei te Kooti Whenua Maori te mahi. 680. Tiaki Tiioini: E penei ana to kupu, kite hanga he ture hou, me hoatu he mana ki nga komiti kia whai mana ai ratou kite whakatuwhera kia whakawakia ano nga keehi c raruraru ana? Niniwa : Ac. Xi taku whakaaro me whai mana te komiti Maori kite mahi i tena. 681. Tiaki Tiwini : Xi to whakaaro me takoto huihui tonu nga paanga i roto i nga whenua, me wehewehe ranei ki ia tangata tona whenua hei oranga mona ? Niniwa: Xi taku whakaaro me noho huihui tonu, engari ko nga paanga eka ote tangata c whakatau, kaua c wawahia te poraka. 682. Tiaki Tiwini: Kaati, c penei ana koia tau, mehemea he maha nga tangata kei roto i tetahi whenua, ko te mea pai me noho huihui c ratou taua whenua, me mahi tahi kite kai c ratou, me whakanohonoho tahi c ratou kite kau, kite hipi, kaua c wehewehea te whenua ki ia tangata ? Niniwa : He iwi pai te Maori tetahi ki tetahi, ka taea noa atu c ratou te whakariterite he tikanga c whakanohoia ai te whenua kite kau kite hipi, kaore c raruraru. 683. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaore ano koia te Maori i tautohetohe mo taua tv mahi—ka mea he nui rawa nga kau nga hipi a tetahi, he iti rawa a tetahi ? Niniwa : Ac. Kua rongo au pena ai i etahi takiwa —ara, tautohetohe ai nga Maori mo a ratou kau me a ratou hipi. 684. Tiaki Tiwini : A te mutunga iho pea o tena tv mahi pau tonu atu te whenua i ngaroia me nga hui, kore noa iho he whenua mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua i tautohetohetia ra. Kaore koia c pera ana ? Niniwa: Ac, pena ai ano. He Komiti Maori ano o aua ra, a mehemea i haria c ratou taua raruraru kite komiti, kaore i haria ki nga roia, kua kore pea c pau to ratou whenua. 685. Tiaki Tiwini : Kua wehewehea ki ia tangata nga whenua o Ngarauru me Ngatiruanui— araj o ratou whenua i raupatutia i whakahokia nei ki a ratou ite mutunga ote whawhai. Kua oti katoa nga whenua o nga Maori o reira te wehewehe ki ia tangata. Tautohetohe ai raruraru ai ranei ratou. Niniwa : Kaore au c kaha kite korero mo tena. Kaore au c mohio ana ki tena. Heoi anake te raruraru o reira i rongo au ko te hopuhopukanga o nga iwi o Te Whiti kite whareherehere. 686. Tiaki Tiioini : Ehara ranei i te mea he kawe no Te Whiti raua ko Tohu kia riro i a raua anake te tikanga mo te iwi, kia kaua rawa nga tangata o te iwi c whai i o ratou ake whakaaro c whiwhi ranei ki o ratou whenua ? Niniwa : Ac pea. Koia pea tena te take. Kaore au ite mohio. 687. TeMaka: He nui o whenua ? Niniwa: Ac. 688. Te Maka: Kua oti ranei te wehewehe ko koe anake ki roto ite tiwhikete ? Niniwa : Ko nga eke kua wehewehea, engari ko te poraka kotahi ano te tiwhikete. 689. Te Maka : He hoa ano ou kei roto i te tiwhikete. Niniwa : Ac. 690. Te Maka : Kaore ranei koe c mahara ana tena pea a tona ra, kia mate koe, tera c tupu ake he raruraru ma wawahia taua whenua ? Niniwa : Kaore c taea a kona c au. Ko tenei wa taku c korero ana. Kaore au c kaha kite korero mo nga wa kei muri c haere ake ana. 9—l. 3a.

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691. Te Maka : He tamariki ano au ? Niniwa: Kaore. 692. Te Maka : Engari he whanaunga ano pea ou. Niniwa : Ac ; he maha oku whanaunga. 693. Te Maka: Xi to whakaaro ka pai ake ranei mehemea ka wehea tou whenua ki a koe anake, kia pai ai to tuku-a-wira i to whenua ki tetahi atu, kia mahi ai ranei koe i tau i pai ai mo to whenua ? Niniwa: Ko oku whenua kei te penei te takoto : kua takoto wehe engari kei te takoto topu tonu toku whenua ; engari mehemea c tata ana ahau te mate ka taea c au te wira aku whenua ki taku i pai ai. 694. Te Maka: Kaati, ha kua oti te wehewehe. E penei ana pea tau, kaore ano nga rama wehewehe i tapahia i whakatakotoria ranei ki runga kite whenua; engari ehara tena ite noho huihui i te whenua ? Niniwa : Kua wehewehea nga whenua, engari kotahi tonu te poraka o aua whenua. 695. Te Maka : E penei ana pea tau kaore kau he taiapa roherohe i nga piihi, engari kei te huihui ta koutou noho i te whenua ? Niniwa : Ac. 696. Te Maka : He pai rawa pea mehemea c pena ana te ahua o nga whenua katoa o te iwi Maori, kia kore ai o ratou wehi kei tupu he raruraru whakawa a muri mo nga take ki to ratou whenua ? Niniwa : Ac pea, kite wehewehea o ratou whenua, ka mutu ka taiapa. 697. Te Maka : Haunga te tiapatanga, engari te whakataunga i nga tangata mo ia wahanga. Ko te hea te mea pai, me mau te whenua i runga i te ritenga Maori, i runga ranei i tetahi tiwhikete a te Kooti Whenua Maori ? Niniwa : He pai ke ki au te ritenga Maori. 698. Te Maka : Kei te mohio ranei koe ki etahi rangatira Maori i tahuri i te paunga o o ratou ake whenua kite tango i nga whenua o etahi atu tangata ? Niniwa : Ac ; no mua ena mahi no te wa c kuare ana te iwi Maori, no te wa kaore ano i mohio kite whakahaere i o ratou whenua, engari i naianei kua mohio ratou. 699. Te Maka : Xi taku whakaaro kaore nga Maori i te mohio kite whakahaere i o ratou whenua. He mohio rawa nga Maori i mua, i te wa i tua atu i te toru tekau ite wha tekau tau ranei kua taha ake nei, kite whakahaere i o ratou whenua ? Niniwa: Xi taku whakaaro itewa c korero na koe he kuare nga Maori kite whakahaere i o ratou whenua, ara, kite whakawa kia tau ai ki a ratou nga whenua. Riro noa atu ai nga whenua o etahi i mua. 700. Te Maka : I pena ai pea to whakaaro i waimarie koe, na kona ka pena tau titiro ki nga mahi a etahi atu tangata. Niniwa : Kaore. Ina hoki i hokona etahi o nga whenua o toku takiwa c nga rangatira a kaore i tukua ma te iwi c whakaae ite tuatahi. Na nga tikanga o mua, otewa c korero na koe tenei mahi i taea ai. 701. Te Maka: I korero koe mo te komiti Maori. Xi te wehewehea nga whenua ki ia tangata, kaore ranei koe c whakaaro ana me ata rehita nga whakatautaunga me nga tiwhikete c oii ana te mahi kia mau tonu ai hei tirohanga ma nga whakatupuranga i muri i a tatou ? Niniwa : Ac, kei te tika tena; ma te komiti Maori ra tena c mahi. 702. Te Maka: Xi hea te tari me nga pukapuka a te komiti Maori tv ai kia pumau tonu ai enei mea? Niniwa: Me poto taku utu atu mo tena. Ma te komiti c whakatu he apiha mo ena mahi, a c whakahaere nga mea katoa c korerotia mama c koe. 703. Te Maka : Ka rite ano ranei to te komiti Maori ahua me tona kaha ki to te Kawanatanga ? Niniwa : Ka mau tonu te komiti Maori a ngaro noa te iwi Maori, kia ngaro te iwi Maori hei reira ka ngaro hoki te komiti. 704. Te Maka : Ko te Kawanatanga ahua he pumau tonu kaore c mate, na tera ahua hoki ona i kaha tonu ai ia. Tena pea, kotahi rave rima tekau tau ki muri, ka hiahia etahi oou uri kia kite ratou i tetahi mea i mahia c te komiti Maori i ona ra i tv ai : me kimi c ratou ki hea nga pukapuka a te komiti ? I te mea kua ngaro atu te iwi Maori me nga komiti Maori i taua wa, me pehea c kitea ai, ka w r aiho i hea takoto ai nga pukapuka a te komiti ? Niniwa : Kaore au c kaha kite utu i tena patai. 705. Te Maka: Engari me marama ra koe ki nga mahi c taea me nga mahi kaore c taea etc komiti Maori, kia tika ai hoki to korero ko te komiti Maori te mea pai atu mo nga Maori. Niniwa: Ac, c tika ana ; engari c penei ana taku kupu me whakatu te komiti Maori, ma ratou c whiriwhiri c whakatau tena ahua, a ma ratou ano hoki c whakatakoto he tikanga mo nga mahi a te komiti i nga wa c haere ake nei. 707. Te Maka : E korero noa ake ana koe me mahi c te komiti etahi mea, a ko etahi mea kaua c mahia c ia, engari ra ko tona tikanga me marama i a koe te whakaatu mai nga huarahi whakahaere me nga kai-mahi c tutuki tika ai ena mahi ? Niniwa: Kua whakahokia atu ra c au tena patai i runga i taku i mohio ai. Kaore ano nga iwi o te Motu nei i huihui kite whiriwhiri i tena taha. 707. Te Maka: Koia tena to matou raruraru mo nga korero katoa kua rongo nei matou, ma hoki, mehemea nei kaore rawa tetahi o nga kai-whakahoki patai i te marama kite tetahi huarahi c taea ai te whakahaere kia pai ai kia tika ai te tutukitanga o nga mahi c mea nei ratou kia mahia i raro i ta ratou tikanga c korero nei. Niniwa: Ac, c tika ana tena ; engari kua tono atu na hoki matou kia nukuhia te tinana ote Pire nei ki tetahi atu wa, kia ai ai he taima hei hurihuringa ma matou i ena mea katoa.

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Paeatene Ngata :Ka karangatia kite aroaro ote Komiti, ka whai-korero, ka patairia. Paratene Ngata: Ko Paratene Ngata toku ingoa, ako Ngatiporou toku iwi, ko tetahi tenei o nga iwi nui ote Tai Rawhiti. He ateha ahau no te Kooti Whenua Maori, ahe Kai-whakahaere ahau no te Kooti Whenua Maori, he mea ata raihana c te Kooti hei pera. Ko ahau te mangai mo nga tangata kua tuku pitihana mai hei tautoko i tenei Pire, tae atu hoki ki toku ake iwi. Ka korero au mo te Pire i whakatakotoria cte Pirimia kite aroaro o nga hui Maori ote Motu nei, i whakatikatikaina nei etc hui nui ki Papawai. Kua perehitia kite reo Ingarihi kite reo Maori nga menemana whakatikatika i oti ite hui ki Papawai, a kua whakatakotoria kite aroaro ote Whare Paremete. Koia tenei te Pire me nga menemana whakatikatika ate hui Maori ki Papawai. [Ka hoatu taua Pire me nga menemana kite Komiti. Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti.] Ko te Pire kua hoatu na cau kite Komiti he whakarapopototanga tena no nga menemana whakatikatika a nga iwi o etahi takiwa ote Motu nei. I timataria nga whakatikatika mo te Pire ate Pirimia kite hui ki Te Waipatu i tae nei te Pirimia ki reira. He hui nui tera, a he maha nga iwi Maori i tae ki reira. No taua hui ka timataria te mahi whakatikatika i te Pire, a ko enei nga menemana whakatikatika i mahia c te hui ki Te Waipatu. [Ka hoatu kite Komiti aua menemana. Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti.] I takoto enei menemana whakatikatika kite hui ki Papawai, ako te Pire me aua whakatikatika tena kua perehitia nei. No te taenga o Honore Timi Kara ki Whanganui kia kite i te nehunga o Meiha Keepa ka mahia ano etahi menemana whakatikatika. I muri i tera ka haere te Pirimia ki Whanganui kia kite i te mate o Meiha Keepa, aka tahuri ano nga iwi o reira me Ngatiruanui kite mahi ite Pire, a koia enei nga whakatikatika i mahia c taua huihuinga tangata. [Ka hoatu kite Komiti aua whakatikatika. Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti.] He mea hanga kite pitihana katahi ka tukua mai kite Pirimia. I takoto enei whakatikatika kite hui ki Papawai. Na tenei ano etahi menemana na tetahi hapu c noho ana iTe Takapau, takiwa ote Tai Rawhiti. [Ka hoatu kite Komiti aua whakatikatika. Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti.] I takoto ano hoki enei whakatikatika kite hui ki Papawai. Na nga iwi o raro atu o Nepia, ara, o te takiwa ki Petane, Haaki Pei, etahi whakatikatika mo te Pire. Na tetahi hui nui o nga hapu o taua takiwa aua whakatikatika i mahi, a i tukua atu aua mea kite hui ki Papawai. [Ka hoatu kite Komiti aua whakatikatika. Tirohia i raro nei.] Na nga hapu o Mohaka, Haaki Pei, etahi whakatikatika, a i tukua atu ano era kite hui ki Papawai. [Ka hoatu kite Komiti aua whakatikatika. Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti.] Na, tenei etahi whakatikatika ano a nga iwi o Whanganui, na tetahi hui i karangatia c te Whatahoro i mahi, a i tukuna ano hoki enei kite hui ki Papawai. [Ka hoatu kite Komiti aua whakatikatika. Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti.j I whiriwhiria enei pukapuka katoa etc hui nui ki Papawai. Tenei ano etahi whakatikatika na nga iwi o Porangahau, engari kaore enei c perehitia, a i takoto ano nga kape o enei kite. hui ki Papawai. [Ka hoatu kite Komiti aua whakatikatika. Tirohia nga Pukapuka Apiti.] Tenei hoki etahi atu whakatikatika na Ngatihineuru, c noho nei i Tarawera, i takoto ano enei ki te hui ki Papawai. [Ka hoatu kite Komiti aua whakatikatika. Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti.] Tenei etahi whakatikatika na o Ngatiporou; c rua nga hui o taua iwi nana i paahi aua mea. I tukua mai enei ki au ki Papawai, a naku i whakatakoto atu ki taua hui. [Ka hoatu kite Komiti aua whakatikatika. Tirohia i nga Pukapuka Apiti.] Tera ano etahi whakatikatika na nga iwi o te Wairoa tae atu ki Nukutaurua, Haaki Pei, engari kaore i homai ki au c te tangata nana i mau mai, i whakahokia c ia, na reira kaore c taea eau te hoatu kite Komiti. Ko ena whakatikatika katoa kua hoatu na c au kite Komiti, hui atu kite Pire a te Pirimia, i whiriwhiria katoatia c te hui ki Papawai, a ko te otinga tena ko te Pire a te hui ki Papawai, a kua whakarapopototia ki roto ki taua Pire nga whakatikatika kua hoatu nei eauki te Komiti. Na ite mea kua atu whakatakotoria atu nei c au nga whakatikatika me nga tohutohu a nga iwi c tautoko ana i te Pire, he kupu tenei mo nga tangata Maori c noho nei c turaki nei i te Pire, i tae ratou kite hui ki Papawai i te wa c mahia ana ena whakatikatika. Ko Mohi te Atahikoia te tiamana ite huihuinga tuatahi ote Komiti kite Papawai kite whiriwhiri i aua whakatikatika, a i tae ano ia ki nga huihuinga o te Komiti i muri iho, a i reira ia i nga mahinga i oti ai enei whakatikatika katoa. No te mutunga ote hui ka haere mai au me oku hoa, rangatira ki Poneke nei hei tiaki ite Pire itewa c mahia ana cte Paremete, a kite tautoko kia whakaurua ai nga whakatikatika i oti te mahi etc hui ki Papawai. No te putanga mai o nga hunga whakahe kite Pire, ka kite au i a Mohi te Atahikoia me etahi atu tangata i tae kite hui ki Papawai, a i uru kite whakatikatika ite Pire, ka miharo au mo to ratou haere rawa mai ki konei kite whakahe ite Pire. Me whakaatu cau kite Komiti nei ko nga putake tautohe i Papawai, nana i wehewehe ai te iwi, c toru nga tino take. Ko tetahi wehenga ote iwi i mea me whiriwhiri te Pire ate Pirimia. Ko tetahi wehenga i mea me waiho te Pire kaua rawa c whiriwhiria, engari me maka atu ki rahaki, ame tono c ratou kite Kawanatanga kia whakaaetia he mana motuhake mo te iwi Maori, ara, he Kawanatanga Maori, he Paremete Maori, kia riro ai ma nga Maori ano ratou c whakahaere. Ko te toru o nga wehenga i tautoko ite whakahaere ate Kingi—ara, ite Pire Kaunihera Maori. Ko enei nga take c toru nana i wehewehe te iwi Maori, ana runga ite tautohetohe ki ena take c toru ka wehe te hui ka pakaru. Engari ko ahau me oku hoa rangatira i tahuri matou kite whakatikatika ite Pire i tukua ki taua hui cte Pirimia, a koia. tena te mahi i oti i a matou ko te Pire i hoatu na eauki te Komiti nei. Kaore au c korero nui mo nga whakatikatika i mahia c te hui mo te Pire a te Pirimia, notemea akuanei tera te Komiti c patapatai ki au mo taua mea, engari ka tono au kite Komiti kia ata titirohia nga whakatikatika i mahia c te hui ki Papawai, a ma te Komiti c whakatau, ka taea ranei te whakauru o katoa o etahi anake ranei o aua whakatikatika kite Pire ate Pirimia kaore ranei. E tono atu ana matou kaua c tangohia atu o matou mana ki o matou whenua. 708. Tame Parata: He aha tena "mana"; ko te mana whakahaere ite whenua te tikanga o tena kupu au ? Paratene Ngata : Ko o matou taitara ki o matou whenua. Kei te whakaae noa atu matou ki te tuku atu i o matou whenua kite Paori mana c whakahaere, engari kaore matou c whakaae kite

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tuku atu i te mana o te whenua —i te fee-simple ote whenua —kite Poari. Ko tetahi hiahia o matou me uru ano nga Maori ki nga mahi whakahaere- mo o ratou whenua, ara, me whakariterite tahi nga tangata ote whenua me te Poari. Ko tetahi kupu a matou, ko nga iwi c whakahe ana ki te Pire me ata wehe atu o ratou takiwa ki a ratou anake. Me paahi te Pire c takoto nei ite aroaro o te Komiti, me whakatau ki runga ki nga takiwa o nga iwi Maori c whakaae ana c tautoko ana i tenei Pire. 709. Te Tiamana: Ko te Pire i whakatikatikaina nei i homai nei c koe kite Komiti tau c mea nei ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; ko te Pire i whakatikatikaina, a i whakaaetia nei c te hui ki Papawai. Ma aua whakatikatika c whakaatu nga mea katoa i whakaarohia c te iwi Maori, a c hiahiatia ana c ratou kia whakaurua kite Pire. Ko te Pire tuatahi, ara, te mea i tukua atu etc Pirimia kite hui ki Papawai, c rua tekau ma waru ona tekiona, a ma nga whakatikatika a te hui ki Papawai ka eke kite wha tekau ma rima nga tekiona. I whakapaua katoatia o ratou whakaaro ki aua whakatikatika hei whakapai ake i te ahua o te Pire, a kei te kape perehi o te Pire i hoatu na c au c mau ana aua whakatikatika. Mehemea c rima tonu nga tekiona ota te Pirimia Pire i tuku atu ai, ka neke atu ano i nga Maori na tekiona, notemea c kore c pau nga taha me nga ahua katoa o te Pire kite iti iho nga tekiona i ena c mau na i te Pire a te hui ki Papawai. 710. Te Tiamana: Xi te kore te Pirimia c whakaae kia uru a koutou menemana whakatikatika me pehea? Paratene Ngata :Xi te kore te Pirimia c whakaae kite whakauru i aua menemana kite Pire, kaati ka tono au ma te Whare c whakauru. 711. Te Tiamana : A kite kore hoki te Whare c whakaae ? Paratene Ngata : Ka mutu i kona. E kore hoki c taea eau te pehea. 712. Te Tiamana: Mehemea kite kore te Whare c whakaae katahi ranei koe ka whakaae ki te Pire a te Pirimia. Paratene Ngata : Ac. Ka tono atu au kite Whare kia paahiti ate Pire, ahakoa kaore i urua matou menemana whakatikatika, ko te take he mea tono cte iwi Maori kite Kuini kia mahia he Pire, a whakahokia mai ana c te Kuini ma ona Minita i Niu Tireni c whakaaro te pitihana. I runga i taua whakahoki me paahi hei ture te Pire a te Pirimia, ahakoa kore c tino rite ki ta nga Maori i hiahia ai. 713. Te Tiamana :Ka whakaae ranei koe kite Pire ate Pirimia ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, koia tena te tikanga o taku korero. Te take i penei ai taku kupu, kite paahitia taua Pire hei ture, ma tena ka mohiotia te utu ate Paremete ki ta matou inoi kite Kuini. Ma tena ka kitea nga kino ote Pire, ka mohio nga Maori kite mea i hoatu ki a ratou ;a ma ratou a tona wa c whakatakoto atu taua take kite aroaro ote Kuini, c whakaatu ki aia nga mate me nga mahi he i mahia mo ratou. Te take i penei ai taku kupu ko matou, ko te iwi Maori, kua tinga ite kimihanga iia tau iia tau kia mahia mai te mea tika mo matou. Kotahi tonu te huarahi c tuwhera ana ki a matou, ko te Paremete anake. Ko nga whakaaro me nga whakaatuatu c whakaputaina ana c te iwi Maori hei kimi ora mo nga mate c peehi nei i a ratou kua puhore katoa a taea noatia tenei wa, a i naianei kotahi tonu te huarahi c tuwhera ana ki a ratou, a koia tena ko te huarahi kua whaia nei eau me oku hoa Maori c tautoko nei i au. I tukua mai etc hui ki Papawai te Pire ki au me oku hoa rangatira, me te ki mai ki a matou kia haria atu kite Paremete, kia paahitia hei ture ; aki te kore c paahitia etc Paremete, heoi ano c taea te pehea. I penei ai taku whakamarama atu kia mohio ai te Komiti koia enei nga menemana whakatikatika a te iwi Maori, a tenei kua haria mai aua mea ki konei kia whiriwhiria etc Paremete. Xi taku whakaaro kaore c taea te mahi kia kotahi he ture mo nga Motu katoa nei—ara, kia kotahi te ture c rite ai nga hiahia o nga iwi Maori katoa, notemea kei te rereke te ahua o nga whenua me nga tikanga epa ana ki nga whenua o ia takiwa. Na tenei ahua hoki i maha ai nga ture epa ana ki nga whenua Maori, a i rereke ai nga ture mo nga whenua Maori o tetahi takiwa i nga ture mo nga whenua Maori o tetahi atu takiwa. Kei etahi takiwa he papai he motomoto nga whenua, kei etahi takiwa he kikino nga whenua. Kei etahi he tino kikino rawa atu. Na reira ki taku whakaaro c kore c taea c koutou te hanga kia kotahi tonu te ture mo nga whenua Maori katoa. Tena pea c 200,000 nga eka whenua kei te toe ki nga Maori oTe Waipounamu. Ko era whenua c rereke ana te takoto i nga whenua o Aotearoa nei. Na reira kaore au ite kite ite painga o tenei Pire mo nga whenua oTe Waipounamu. Ko nga whenua o reira kua oti te wehewehe ki ia tangata, he ririki nga piihi aia tangata, he tangata ano c 8 eka, he tangata ano 10 eka, ahe pera haere te ahua. Xi taku, kaati noa iho nga whenua oTe Waipounamu, kaua c hanga he ture hou mo reira. Na tenei ano hoki etahi whenua kei Aotearoa nei kua oti te roherohe me te wehewehe ki ia tangata. Kei te Tai Hauauru c 200,000 nga eka kei raro ite mana ote Kai-tiaki mo te Katoa c whakahaere ana. Kei waho enei whenua katoa ite mana o tenei Pire. Kei te Paaka ote Iwi Katoa i Tongariro, takiwa o Taupo, c 65,000 nga eka, a kei taua takiwa ano c 29,000 nga eka kei raro i te mana o te Ture Ngawha. Me etahi atu whenua o nga Maori kei reira ano kei raro ite mana ote Ture Taone Maori. Kei waho katoa enei whenua ite mana ote Pire nei. Kei te takiwa ote Arawa c 660,000 nga eka kei raro ite Ture Ngawha, kei waho katoa enei whenua ite te mana o tenei Pire. E 656,000 nga eka ote whenua o Tuhoe, kei waho katoa ite mana o tenei Pire. Ko nga whenua katoa ote takiwa o Hauraki me etahi o nga whenua o te takiwa o Ngapuhi kei raro katoa i te Ture Mama Koura me etahi atu Ture epa ana ki nga mahi mo nga rakau kauri. He nunui nga whenua kua riihitia kia mahia nga rakau kauri o runga. Na kei Poneke nei me etahi atu wahi o Aotearoa etahi whenua kei raro i te mana o etahi kai-tiaki i whakaturia i mua. Xi taku whakaaro me taka enei w r henua katoa ki waho ote mana o tenei Pire. Kei nga hahi karakia etahi whenua c pupuri ana i runga i te tikanga tiaki, he mea tuku atu ki a ratou i mua hei whenua mo nga kura ako tamariki, a ko etahi whenua kua riihitia c nga Maori ki nga Pakeha noa. E tika ana enei whenua katoa kia taka ki waho ite mana o tenei Pire. Ko nga whenua c toe ana ki nga Maori, he itiiti nei nga nga whenua papai c taea te mahi me te noho c ratou. Ko te nuinga he rnaunga he kino, He maha.

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nga eka, he pera me nga whenua o Taupo, he pungapunga anake. He pera ano hoki a Ngapixhi he tupuhi nga whenua. Ko te nuinga ote whenua c toe ana ki nga Maori i naianei ehara ite whenua pai. Koia tena te take ikiai au c kore pea c taea te whakakotahi he Pire mo enei tv ahua katoa. Na reira ka inoi atu matou, te wahanga o te iwi Maori c tv nei ko au hei mangai mo ratou, kite Paremete kia whakatikatikaina te Pire nei kia rite ki ta matou c whakaatu atu nei, a kia paahitia mo nga whenua ote Tai Rawhiti, a taihoa ake nei, a tona wa, kite kitea ona mate me whakatikatika, ma matou, ma nga iwi Maori ote Tai Rawhiti, c haere mai kite Paremete kia mahia aua whakatikatikanga Kaore ano hoki he ture i hanga etc Paremete i pumau tonu kaore i whakatikatikaina i muri iho. E tono ana matou kia hereherea rawatia o matou whenua kia kore ai c taea te hoko, penei me ta te Pire ate Pirimia c mea nei; ame paahi c koutou te wahi ote Pire c arai nei i te hoko i te muru me era atu mea, kia kore rawa ai c taea te hoko me te muru o nga whenua Maori mo te nama. Me tau nga here katoa c korerotia nei c au ki runga ki nga whenua Maori, ame whakatu nga Poari. Kei nga whakatikatika i hoatu na c au c whakaatu ana, ko ta nga Maori c hiahia ana kia tokowha nga mema Maori o te Poari, a ko te rima o nga mema o te Poari ko te Komihana mo nga Whenua o te o te Karauna, a ko ia hei Tiamana. Koia tena te hiahia o nga Maori ma whakaturia nga mema o te Poari. E tono atu ana matou kia ata hurihuria c te Komiti nei tena ahua, a kite mea te Komiti me hoatu ano he mema Pakeha mo te Poari, c kore matou c whakahe ki tena, engari kia kotahi tonu te Pakeha hove apiti atu, kia rua ai nga Pakeha kia wha ai nga Maori. Engari eui ana matou nga Maori he aha rawa te take i uru ai nga Pakeha, i te mea no nga Maori anake nga whenua ka whakahaerea c te Poari. Otira kaore a matou whakahe mo te meatanga kia uru te Komihana o nga Whenua ote Karauna kite Poari, amo te meatanga ko ia hei Tiamana hei upoko mo te Poari. He pai kia whakamatauria i te tuatahi kia tokowha nga mema Maori mo te Poari, ko te Komihana mo nga Whenua ote Karauna hei Tiamana. Ko te Poari hei upoko hei tino kaiwhakahaere, ame whakatu he Komiti mo ia takiwa i raro i te Poari. Kia rua nga komiti—he komiti takiwa tetahi, he komiti poraka tetahi. Kei roto i a matou whakatikatika mo te Pire enei tikanga c whakaaturia ana, a ki ta matou whakaaro kite peratia he tikanga ka ngawari nga whakahaere mahi i raro i te Poari. Me tv te Poari hei Kooti a mana c whakahaere nga mahi a te Kooti Whenua Maori; ma nga komiti c tautoko nga mahi ate Poari. Ma nga komiti c whakawa nga whenua Maori a ma te Poari c whakamana c paahi nga whakawa c whakahaerea ana c nga komiti, ara, nga whakatau katoa a nga komiti kaore c tautohetia ana c piiratia ana. Ko nga whakatau ate komiti c piiratia ana me tuku atu kite Poari, akota te Poari i whakatau ai ko te mutunga tera. Ma te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna c haina nga taitara katoa c whakaputaina ana c te Poari, a, mo nga mahi rehitatanga pukapuka me era tv mea, ki ta matou me tv tonu nga kai-rehita me nga kai-tuhituhi me nga kai-whakamaori o te Kooti Whenua Maori hei mahi i aua tv mahi. Xi ta matou, kite whakaaetia, ka ai tenei tikanga hei whakangawari i nga mahi katoa c pa ana ki nga whenua Maori, notemea ka haereere tonu nga komiti ki nga kainga Maori, ma tera ka mohio ratou ki nga hiahia katoa o nga Maori. Ma tenei ka tino mama te taha ki nga iwi Maori. Kaore c penei ta nga komiti me ta te Kooti, c tv tonu nei ki nga taone. Kaore c kumea atu nga Maori ki nga taone c nga komiti periei me ta te Kooti, ki reira whakapau moni ai me ona tini mate. Ko nga keehi i waenganui i te Pakeha me te Maori, ma te Poari ena c whakatau. He ngawari noa iho te nuinga o nga keehi, aka riro ena ma nga komiti c whakatau. Xi taku mahara tera c eke kite miriona kite hawhe miriona ranei nga eka o nga whenua papatupu o toku takiwa c toe nei. Xi te paahitia tenei Pire, a kite hoatu te mana kite Poari c whai mana ai ia kite whakatau i nga whenua papatupu, ki taku mohio ka mama noa iho te whakatau o nga whenua papatupu 0 toku takiwa. Tetahi take i tino mea ai matou kia whakaaetia te Poari, koia tenei: E kore rawa te Maori c kaha kite tv ake i te aroaro o te Poari korero teka ai, notemea ka mahia ana mahi ite aroaro ote iwi Maori aka puare kite katoa. He iwi mohio te Maori ki ona korero, a kite korero teka tetahi tangata ka mohio katoa te iwi c noho ana i roto ite kooti aka whakahengia, tena ko nga Kooti Pakeha ko nga tangata anake c whai keehi ana nga mea c tukuna kia korero. Kaore c tukuna tetahi atu tangata kia korero, kite pokanoa te tangata kite pera ka hopukia. Mo nga whenua papatupu ena korero aku. Na, mo nga whakawa wehewehe, me pena ano, ma te komiti c whakawa ; kaore he uauatanga. Ka nui te pai o nga keehi c whakariteritea ana i waho o te Kooti c nga Maori mo nga wehewehe paanga, me etahi atu mahi; ka oti ka hoatu kite Kooti kia whakataua. Ko nga keehi c peratia ana ka nui te tere ote mahi,-oti tonu atu kaore he raruraru i muri iho. Na me pera ano te whakahaere mo nga keehi roherohe, ako ta matou, ko ta te iwi Maori, c tono nei ko te mana kia homai c koutou, c te Paremete, kia whai mana ai matou kite whakatautau kite whakaotioti haere i o matou nei raruraru, kite homai taua mana tera c oti pai o matou raruraru me a matou mahi katoa. Ko nga keehi ngawari nga mea c hoatu ma te komiti c whakatau, kaore c hoatu nga mea uaua ki a ratou. Ka waiho nga keehi uaua ma te Poari c mahi c whakatau. Kei te mohio nga Tiati ote Kooti Whenua Maori c oti ana nga keehi uaua o te Motu nei i nga komiti, ara, he mea whakariterite i waho o te Kooti, ka oti ka hoatu kia whakataua. He Ateha au no te Kooti Whenua Maori, he kai-whakahaere whai raihana, ahe mea tino kite naku aku kua korero atu na. Ko au teAteha ote Kooti nana i whakawa te Eohepotae Poraka o Ngatimaniapoto nana i roherohe taua whenua nui. Ko au te tangata nana 1 whakamarama ki nga iwi o reira te huarahi mo ratou. He nui nga mahi i oti i au i roto i waho hoki o te Kooti, ara, he tohutohu ki nga hapu me nga komiti i nga huarahi c ngawari ai te mahi, heoi ano ma te Kooti he whakamana. E iwa nga marama c mahi ana taua Kooti, a c waru tekau ma ono rawa nga wawahanga whenua i oti, a kaore rawa he tono whakawa tuarua kia kotahi i ara mo tetahi o aua keehi. Ko te take i pai ai aua whakataunga kaore i riro i to te Kooti tikanga anake, engari i ta nga komiti Maori i whakariterite ai i waho. Kaore he utu mo aua Komiti. Ko maua anake ko te Tiati nga tangata c utua ana. Ka pera ano te pai o nga mahi,a nga Komiti c tonoa nei kia whakaturia i raro ite mana ote Pire nei me te mahi

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a komiti o Ngatimaniapoto, a tera c korekore noa iho nga moni c pau i a ratou. Kaua aua Komiti c utua i te wa c matu ana ratou i nga whenua o to ratou ake takiwa; engari kia puta ki waho oto ratou takiwa, katahi ka tika kia utua ratou. Mo te wehewehe i nga whenua tenei kupu, ara, c whakaae ana au kite tika ote whakaaro i puta i etahi o nga mema ote Komiti nei ma te roherohe me te wehewehe i nga whenua ki ia tangata c ora ai te iwi Maori, c taea ai c ratou te pupuri o ratou whenua. Engari kei etahi tv whenua anake c taea ai taua tikanga. Kei nga whenua nunui anake, tokoiti nga tangata o roto, katahi ka taea taua tikanga. Ka pai taua tikanga mo nga whenua raorao c taea ana te mahi kite parau. Tena mo nga whenua c 5,000 eka te nui, a c toru rave wha rau ranei nga tangata o roto, ki taku whakaaro kaore c pai taua tikanga, notemea kite wehewehea enei tv poraka ki ia tangata, tera c nui ake nga moni c pau i nga ruri, i nga rehitatanga i nga taitara, i nga piiratanga, me era atu mahi, i nga utu tika mo te whenua c mahia peratia ana. 714. Te Tiamana : Me pehea ena tv poraka ririki ? Paratene Ngata : Xi taku me kimi c hia nga hapu no ratou te poraka, ka wehewehe ai ki ia hapu. Mehemea c toru c wha ranei nga hapu, me wehewehe ki ia hapu ka waiho i tena. Xi te paahitia tenei Pire, heoi kua ai he mana c taea ai c ia hapu te whakatu i tetahi o ratou hei mema mo te komiti. Me uru he mema mo ia hapu ki taua komiti. Ka oti nga mema katoa o taua komiti te whakatu ka karangatia tona ingoa ko te " komiti poraka." Ko taua komiti poraka te mangai mo nga hapu no ratou te whenua ra, a ma taua komiti c utu nga reiti c whakahaere nga mea katoa c pa ana ki taua whenua.

Weneeei, 19 Oketopa, 1898. Paeatene Ngata : Ka haere tonu tana korero me nga patai ki a ia. Paratene Ngata : I mutu taku korero i nanahi i te tikanga wehewehe whenua, ka mutu i au tera te whakamarama ka korero atu au mo nga whenui nunui, kaore nei c pai kite wehewehe ki ia tangata i te maha nga tangata o roto, c me taku whakamarama atu, ki taku me wehewehe aua tv whenua ki ia hapu i uru ki roto. Ko te mea marama mo nga poraka pera te ahua me whakatu he komiti poraka mo ratou. Ko taua komiti te mangai mo nga hapu, hei takawaenga mo ratou me te Poari, hei whakahaere mo nga mea katoa a nga hapu c pa ana kite whenua. Xi taku mahara ma reira c tika ai nga mahi. Ka korero au mo nga tikanga c ora ai te iwi Maori. Xi taku me rahui te toenga o nga whenua Maori c toe nei ki a ratou, a me tino herehere kia kore rawa ai c taea te hoko te tuku ranei, ame whakapumau hei pa, hei kainga, hei paamu ma ratou. Me herehere hoki nga whenua kua whakanohonohoia kite hipi me te kau, kua whakapaia, penei me nga whenua o nga Pakeha. Ko nga whenua watea ote Maori i waho atu i nga whenua kua whakahuatia nei c au, ki taku, ko era nga whenua c tuku atu ma te Poari c whakahaere ki nga huarahi c whai mahi ai. Ka mutu tonu te ora mo te Maori, ara, me mahi he tikanga mo ratou kia rite ai to ratou tv ki to te Pakeha, a me pera me ta te Pakeha tana mahi me tana whakahaere i ona whenua. Me korero au mo toku takiwa—mo te takiwa o Ngatiporou —ko nga whenua o reira 100 eka etahi, he nuku atu etahi, a tae atu kite 5,000 nga eka o etahi, he ki tonu i te tangata, ara, he nui rawa nga tangata c uru ana ki ia poraka. Te take i pera ai te ahua he nui rawa no te tangata he iti no te whenua. Kua tahuri tena iwi i naianei kite whakatu komiti poraka mo ia poraka hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua. Kua whai haere ratou i nga tikanga Pakeha, ara, kite whakatupu hipi, kite taiapa i nga whenua oia hapu oia hapu. Ka nui te pai ote whakahaere a nga komiti i aua tv mahi, kaore kau he raruraru. Xi taku mohio nuku atu ite wha tekau mano nga hipi a nga Maori o taua takiwa, a koia tera te tikanga c whakahaerea mai nei, ko taku kua korero atu na. Ko au tono tetahi tangata c uru ana ki nga whakahaere a aua komiti mo ena mahi. Kei te mohio nga Pakeha c noho mai nei i taua takiwa kite tika o aku korero, me nga Kai-titiro Hipi hoki. Ko tetahi taha o aua poraka he ngaherehere, kei te takoto noa iho kaore ite nohoia. Kei waho atu i aua poraka he nui nga whenua papatupu, kaore ano i whakataua nga tangata nona. Xi taku whakaaro tena c eke te kaute o nga moni o nga whenua c riihitia ana me nga moni c puta ana ki nga Maori i runga i a ratou hipi kite £17,000 kite £18,000 moni ite tau. Ko te nuinga o aua moni c whakapaua ana ano kite whakapai i nga whenua, rite tonu ki nga Pakeha, notomea kei te whai toku iwi i ta te Pakeha whakahaere me ate Pakeha mahi. Koia tena taku huarahi marama mo te iwi Maori c ora ai me mau te pupuri ki a ratou whenua c toe nei ki a ratou, ame penei te whakahaere me taku kua korero atu nei. Ko te mate nui me te pouri nui ote Maori i naianei he kore ture hei arai i te hoko, hei rahui i nga whenua, hei whakamana i nga komiti me era atu whakahaere kua korerotia atu nei c au, kia haere tika ai a ratou mahi i runga i te mana o te ture. 715. Kapene Bahera: Kaore kau koia he ture c taea ai c ratou ena mahi ? Paratene Ngata: Kaore kau he ture c taea ai c ratou te arai ote hoko. Kaore kau he Ture motuhake mo toku takiwa pera me etahi takiwa, ona Ture Rahui, ona ture ke atu ranei c ahua rite ana ki tera. No te tau 1876 ka timata te uru o matou whenua kite Kooti Whenua Maori. I korero au i nanahi mo nga whenua papatupu c toe ana i toku takiwa. Ko tetahi tikanga c ora ai te iwi Maori, me whakamana nga komiti Maori c te ture hei whakahaere hei tiaki mo te iwi Maori i roto iia takiwa o ratou. Ma aua komiti c peehi haere nga tikanga Maori c patu nei i a ratou, ara, taku c mea nei ko nga hui nunui ate Maori, whakapau moni whakarawakore ia ratou—a ko nga tangihanga tupapaku, me etahi atu tikanga Maori, c whakapau nei i o ratou oranga. Tetahi mahi ma aua komiti he whakamutu i nga mahi a nga tohunga. Ko tetahi atu mahi ma aua komiti he tiaki he whakahaere i nga pa me nga kainga noho, i nga wai inu, me era atu tikanga c whakahaerea ana hei arai atu i nga mate penei me ate Pakeha c whakahaere nei mo ona taone; hei arai hoki i nga tikanga mangere, c haere nei etahi tangata ki nga kainga o etahi noho roa ai kaore he mahi, kai noa ai i nga kai a te tangata a pau noa nga kai ate whanau a tera tangata. Ma te komiti ano hoki c whakahaere nga tikanga mo nga hapu me nga iwi, hei whakakaha i tena tangata i

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tena fcangata kia haere kite mahi oranga mona. Koia ena nga mahi c mea ana ahau me tuku atu ma nga komiti Maori, c tonoa atu nei kite Whare kia paahitia he ture hei whakamana i a ratou mahi me a ratou whakahaere. Kua uru katoa nga mea kua tohutohungia atu nei eau ki roto ki nga menemana whakatikatika i whakaaecia nei c te hui ki Papawai. Tetahi atu mahi hei tuku atu ki nga komiti ko te tiaki me te whakahaere i nga tamariki c haere ana ki nga kura. He nui nga moni a te koroni c whakapaua ana hei ako i nga tamariki Maori kite kura, kei te hokinga o aua tamariki ki o ratou kainga ngaro tonu atu o ratou matauranga, moumou noa iho te akonga i a ratou kite kura. Te take i pera ai he kore kaore c pai ana nga kainga Maori hei nohoanga mo nga tamariki kura, ko]nga tikanga Maori kite whakahe. Ko tetahi kaore c tiakina ana c nga matua a ratou moni; moumouria ai c ratou kite waipiro me etahi atu mahi. Hei whakaatu i nga ako kura c taea ana c te tamariki Maori, me korero atu au kite Komiti nei, ko au tetahi tangata i whakamatau kite ako i aku tamariki kite kura kia rite aku tamariki ki a te Pakeha. Na kei te mohio cc Komiti nei kua puta taku tamaiti, kua tv hei roia mo te Hupirimi Kooti. Xi taku whakaaro tera c maha nga tamariki Maori c puta, c uru ki nga nohoanga totika i roto ite Pakeha, mehemea i tika i kaha te awhina a nga matua i a ratou. Xi taku me tuku atu ma te komiti Maori ena tv mea c whakahaere, c tiaki nga tamariki i te wa c haere ana ratou kite kura. Ko tetahi mate kino o te Maori ko te waipiro ; engari kaore au c mohio me pehea ra he tikanga c mutu ai tera mea i roto i nga Maori. He whakaatu kau taku kite Komiti nei koia tera tetahi o nga mate c patu nei ite Maori. Koia ena ko nga mea kua korerotia atu nei eau nga mea c tonoa ana, c inoitia ana, c te iwi Maori kite Paremete kia whakaurua kite Pire, kia whai mana ai ratou kite tiaki kite whakahaere i ana mea. Mehemea c whai mana ana nga komiti Maori ite ture, tetahi mahi c taea c ratou ko te uru hei hoa mahi tahi mo te Poari i nga mea c pa ana kite Kooti Whenua Maori, c tau ai nga whenua Maori, c taea ai te peehi nga kino c puta ana i nga tikanga Maori. E tino mohio ana ahau kite rite ite Paremete ta matou c tono nei tera c puta he tino ora mo nga iwi Maori, a tera ratou c kaha kite whakahaere i aua mea c tonoa nei c ratou. Na, mo te Pire ate Pirimia, ka waiho atu eau tena ma te Komiti nei c whiriwhiri. Heoi ano ta nga iwi, c tv nei au hei mangai mo ratou, he tautoko i taua Pire, he tono atu kia whakaurua a matou whakatikatika, a kia whakaurua te kupu nei " rahui" ki roto kite Pire, timata ite whakaupokotanga tae noa ki tona mutunga. Xi te ata tirohia c koutou te Pire a te Pirimia ka kite koutou kaore te kupu nei " rahui" i whakaurua kite whakaupokotanga ote Pire, ahe pai kia uru taua kupu ki reira. Tena ano hoki etahi tekiona me etahi rarangi ote Pire c mea ana au kia uru taua kupu ki reira. He oranga ngakau to nga iwi Maori kite whakaurua taua kupu ki nga wahi katoa ote Pire c tika ana hei urunga mo taua kupu. Ko te here c mea ana au kia whakataua ki runga ki nga whenua rahui, kaua i te tv here c taea nei te wewete a muri atu c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaumhera. Ko taku c hiabia ana me here tuturu, pumau tonu, ake tonu atu. Ko wahanga (2) o tekiona 7 o te Pire a te Pirimia c ki ana ka ahei te Kawana kite whakatu kia rua nga mema Pakeha mo te Poari. I whakatikatikaina taua tekiona etc hui ki Papawai; i penei ta ratou, kia tokowha nga mema Maori mo te Poari, a ko te Komihana mo nga Whenua o te Karauna hei Tiamana. I pena taku korero i nanahi, aka pena ano i naianei, aka mea atu ano au kite Komiti nei kia ata tirohia tenei. Mehemea ki ta koutou whakaaro me hoatu ano tetabi Pakeha hei mema mo te Poari, kia kotahi c hoatu, kaua c rua, c pera me ta te Pire nei. Xi toku whakaaro, heoi te take i hoatu ai nga Pakeha, hei mema mo te Poari, hei whakaako kau i nga Maori ki nga mahi a tera tv mea ate Poari. Ko nga whenua c mahia ana c te Poari no nga Maori anake, a tera ano pea c kitea ma nga Maori anake c utu nga whakahaerenga mahi. He whakamarama kau taku ki te Komiti nei, ka waiho atu ma koutu c whiriwhiri tenei mea. Ka tae taku korero ki tekiona 11 me 12 me ona wawahanga tae noa ki wawahanga (7), taku whakamarama kite Komiti, mo tena wahi ote Pire, c kore c taea te whakahaere tonu atu ma paahi te Pire. B kore c hohoro te tau ki runga ki nga whenua Maori, engari ka roa, te take tera c hiahia etahi o nga tangata whai whenua kia tau taua wahi o te Ture ki runga ki to ratou takiwa, a tera pea etahi o nga tangata whai whenua c whakahe, a hei reira ka tukua nga pitihana whakahe. Ka tukua aua pitihana whakahe ki nga Maori c noho ana i taua takiwa, kia whakataua c ratou i runga i te pooti, a ki taku whakaaro, tera pea etahi tangata Maori, c noho ana i taua takiwa c hiahia ana kia kaua te Ture c tau ki runga ki to ratou takiwa, c kaha kite whakahaere kia rahi nga tangata hei tautoko ita ratou, c hinga ai te Ture. Te mutunga iho, kite hinga te tono kia tau te Ture ki taua takiwa, heoi kua kore c uru mai nga whenua o taua takiwa ki raro o taua Ture, engari ka takoto noa iho i runga i nga tikanga c mana nei i naianei, a ka pa he mate ki nga tangata whai whenua c noho ana i taua takiwa. Na ma ano tetahi ahua, tena pea kei etahi takiwa kei te riihi ki nga Pakeha te nuinga o nga whenua, a he itiiti nei pea nga whenua c toe ana ki nga Maori kaore ano i riihitia, ka mate enei. Koia tenei taku whakamarama atu kite Komiti mo enei tekiona, engari me korero atu au ka kitea c koutou nga menemana whakatikatika mo ena i roto i te Pire i whakatikatikaina nei c te hui ki Papawai: Ko nga menemana a taua hui i mahi ai mo tekiona-7 tae noa ki tekiona 10 c penei ana : kite paahi te Pire me tau tonu atu tona mana whakahaere ki runga ki nga takiwa katoa puta noa te Motu. I korero au i nanahi mo nga iwi o te Motu c whakahe ana kite Pire, me wehe atu o ratou nei takiwa me whakahaere i raro i tetahi atu ture, engari me tau te Pire ki runga kite takiwa o te Tai Rawhiti, me era atu iwi c tautoko ana ite Pire. Xi te paahitia tenei Pire a kite whakaturia nga Poari, ko te mahi tuatahi ma te Poari he karanga huihui mo nga Maori puta noa i nga takiwa komiti o roto i te takiwa o te Poari. Hei reira ka tahuri te Poari kite whiriwhiri aki te whakatau i nga whenua hei whenua here, ara, hei paamu, hei kainga, hei pa, a ka tahuri hoki kite whiriwhiri kite wehe atu i nga whenua hei riihi, ara, i nga whenua watea kaore c mahia ana c nohoia ana ranei c nga Maori. Ko enei menemana katoa, kua korerotia nei c au, i mahia a i apitiria atu c te hui ki Papawai ki tekiona 7 tae noa ki tekiona 10 ote Pire. Ma te Poari c whakatu nga komiti poraka hei hoa mahi tahi mona. Xi taku whakaaro, kite uru nga menemana kua korerotia ake nei eau ki to Pire, tera c hohoro te whakaaetia o te Pire, me te whai mahi o te Pire, puta noa i nga

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takiwa katoa. Me whakamarama c au i naianei nga mahi ma nga komiti poraka. Ma te komiti c matua whakaae to ratou poraka kia tukua atu kite Poari katahi ka tukua, ko te whakaaetanga o te komiti ka kiia na nga tangata katoa no ratou te poraka tera whakaaetanga. Kua oti i au i nanahi te whakamarama etahi mahi whakahaere a te komiti mo nga whenua. Xi te whakamanaia nga tikanga c whakaaturia nei c au, heoi c kore nga Maori c wehi kite tuku mai i o ratou whenua ki raro ite Pire. Ka mohio hoki ratou, kei te mahi tahi ratou ko te Poari kia puta ai he ora mo ratou katoa. Ka korero au mo nga tekiona 13 me 14 ; kaore matou i te mohio ka pehea ranei te paanga mai o enei tekiona ki a matou. Heoi te mea c kitea ana c matou, ka tau nga whenua kite Poari i runga i te tikanga "fee-simple," a kaore taua kupu i whakamaoritia c nga kai-whakamaori. Kua rapu matou i tona tikanga kia mohio ai matou, a i naianei ka patai atu matou. Mehemea c penei ana tona tikanga, ara, me tino tau tuturu atu, tino motuhake atu, kite Poari nga whenua, pehea ranei ? Ko tetahi mea kua kite matou i roto ite Pire, c penei ana ka karangatia nga taitara tawhito kia whakahokia kite Poari, kia whakaputaina nga taitara hou. Kei te whiriwhiri matou i tenei, a mehemea c penei ana tona tikanga he tango atu i o matou mana taitara kia tuturu atu kite Poari, ka ki atu au kite Komiti waiho ano i a matou o matou taitara whenua, kaua c tangohia i nga Maori te fee-simple o o ratou whenua. He tika ano kia riro he taitara i te Poari, engari me taitara noa iho c hoatu ana ki a ia mo nga mahi whakahaere anake ite whenua kia puta ai he ora ki nga Maori, me ahua pera te taitara c hoatu kite Poari. Kua roa matou c whiriwhiri ana c korero ana mo enei tekiona o te Pire, notemea kaore inatou c tino mohio ana i ona tikanga. 716. Wi Pere : He mataku nou kite tukua atu nga taitara kite Poari kei puritia tonutia atu nga whenua, kei kore c whakahokia mai, a kei mahia atu ki a ratou nei mahi i kite ai? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ano matou i tino mohio ki tena, engari tena ano etahi tangata kei te manawapa kei. te whakapae nga whakaaro mo taua ahua; ehara ite mea kua pa mai he mate ki a matou i te mea c whakaaturia nei c au, notemea kaore ano te Pire i paahi noa i whakahaerea ranei: He korero kau ake taku ite ahua o taua mea kia mohiotia ai kei te maharaharatia taua tekiona o te Pire. E penei ana ta matou whakaaro ka oti ite Poari ana mahi mo te riihitanga me te whakanohonohoanga i nga whenua kite tangata kua kore he tikanga c tv tonu ai te Poari, engari me tv ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna anake hei tiaki i nga riihi. Ko era atu o nga mema o te Poari he pai noa atu kia whakamutua, kia kore ai c pau nga moni. Hon. Timi Kara : He penei te tikanga o te korero a te kai-whakahoki-patai, ka oti i te Poari tetahi whenua te whakahaere, te riihi, me te whakanohonoho kite tangata, hei reira me kore atu te Poari i runga i taua whenua, a me waiho ma te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna me nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua c whakahaere. Te tino tikanga ia o tenei, c tau ana kia turia te Poari hei tuku taitara hei whakaputa riihi, kia oti tena me nuku te Poari, a ko era atu whakahaere i muri iho me waiho ma te Komihana c whakahaere. Te Maka: Ara, ka tv te Komihana hei kai-tiaki. Paratene Ngata : Xi ta matou mahara, he tikanga pai tera, ma hoki, ma tena ka iti haere ai nga moni c whakapaua i ia tau, i ia tau. 717. Hon. Timi Kara: Kaore ranei i whakaurua he menamena hei whakamana i nga tikanga o enei kupu au ki roto kite kape o te Pire whakatikatika i tukua mai c koe kite Komiti ? Paretene Ngata : Ac. Me ki atu ahau kite Komiti, kua poto a matou menamena katoa ki roto kite kape ote Pire i whakatikatikaina nei ite hui ki Papawai. Ma tena ka kore ai c moumouria te taima ote Komiti. Kua korerotia c ahau etahi kupu mo te mahi pooti mema mo te Poari. Kei nga tekiona 12 me 46 o te Pire whakatikatika nga tikanga mo te mahi whakahaere pooti c mau ana. Xi ta matou mahara mehemea ka whakahaerea te mahi pooti i runga i nga tikanga kei aua tekiona c mau ana, he nui te moni c pau. Ka kitea c koutou nga menamena mo runga i tenei mea i nga tekiona 39 me 40 o te Pire i mahia nei c te hui ki Papawai. 718. Hon. Timi Kara : E mea ana koe, ehara i te mea c whakarereke ana te menamena i te tikanga, engari c mea ana koe me whakamama nga moni c pau mo taua mahi ? Paratene Ngata: Ac, eki ana matou he nui nga moni c pau i raro i nga tikanga o nga tekiona ote Pire ate Kawanatanga, a c mea ana matou me whakamana aua utu. A, ite mea kua poto katoa a matou menamena ki roto i te Pire a te hui ki Papawai i mahi ai, kaore he tikanga c whai kupu atu ai ano ahau mo ena. Heoi taku c mea atu ai kite Komiti, a te wa c whakaarohia ai te Pire nei me whakaaro hoki a matou menamena. E hiahia ana ahau kia whakaaturia mai etc Komiti mehemea ranei ka oti i a ratou tenei Pire i naianei kia taea ai te paahi hei ture i tenei tuunga ote Paremete. Xi te kore tena c taea, ka tonoa c au kia whakatakotoria tetahi Pire poto, kia penei te ahua: Me rahui te morehu o nga whenua Maori i naianei tonu —ara, me whakamutu te mahi hoko i naianei tonu. E hiahia ana hoki au kia whakaurua tetahi atu tekiona ki roto kite Pire, hei mea me tahuri te Kawanatanga kite whakaoti i nga hoko katoa —ara, c mea ana ahau me whakaoti aua hoko me te wehewehe i nga wahi kua hokona, kia noho mohio ai nga Maori ki hga wahi c toe ana ki a ratou i roto ite Motu nei. Ko reira ata mohio ai te Paremete c haere ake nei ki nga morehu whenua ate Maori. I au c ki nei me wehewehe nga wahi kua hokona, c mea ana ahau ko nga wahi, ko nga hea ranei, i roto i nga poraka kua riro rawa i te hoko i naianei. Me rere ke te tikahga mo nga whenua kua moketetia me nga whenua kua whakahaerea nei he tikanga tuku i runga ; ka tonoa c au kia tiakina c te Paremete aua whenua, kia kaua c tukua kia muriia m 0 te mana. Me whakauru hoki tetahi rarangi ki roto kite Pire poto nei hei whakatau i etahi mana kite Poari hei hoa mahi tahi mo te Kooti kia hohoro ai te oti o te mahi whakatau, ' wehe hoki i nga wahi kua hokona. Na mo te tono ate taha turaki ite Pire—ara, kia hikitia te Pire kia mutu ra ano te hui ki Waitangi —ki taku mahara he moumou taima noa tena tono. E kore c taea te aha c taua hui ki Waitangi, kihai hoki i karangatia taua hui hei hurihuri i te Pire nei. Ko te take o taua hui i karangatia ai he ta ite kawa o tetahi whare, he tangihanga tupapaku. 1 puta mai te kupu mo te hiki atu i te Pire ki taua hui i te taha turaki i Poneke nei, he hiahia no

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ratou kia kiia ai ko te Pire nei te take ote hui ki Waitangi. Kaore he take c whakaaetia ai etc Komiti ta ratou tono. Ko te hui nui i Papawai he hui no nga ivvi katoa o te Motu nei, tona take hoki he whiriwhiri i te Pire nei i runga i te kupu a te Kawanatanga, inahoki na te Kawanatanga i whakahoki iho te utu mo te tereina kia hawhe, me te awhina ano hoki i nga Maori i runga i etahi atu tikanga me te whakai'ite hoki i tetahi takuta hei titiro i nga turoro. I tae te Kawana me te Pirimia ki taua hui, a i whai korero raua ki nga iwi i reira. He moumou taima tenei tono kia hikitia te Pire nei kia mutu ra ano te hui ki Waitangi. He nui aku kupu hei whakahoki i nga kupu a nga kai-turaki i te Pire, engari he mahi whakapau tena i te taima o te Komiti. Tena c eke kite tekau mano nga tangata Maori c tautoko ana i ta nga kai-turaki i te Pire ; engari he take ke i whakahe ai ratou ki taua Pire. B hapai ke ana ratou ite tono Kaunihera Maori —te tona ate taha Kingi. E tautoko ana ratou ite mana motuhake, a kua hui tahi ratou ki te turaki ite Pire nei; engari ka penei taku kupu: kite paahitia tenei Pire hei ture, ka tahuri tonu mai ana iwi turaki kite whakauru i a ratou whenua ki raro i taua ture. He nui nga whakahuatanga i roto ite Komiti nei mo te Pire a Henare Kaihau. Kotahi tonu aku kupu whakahoki mo tena, ara, koia tenei, kaore toku takiwa c whakaae kia whai-mana taua Pire ana ki to matou takiwa, notemea c kite ana matou kei te whakatete taua Pire ki nga tikanga whakahaere a te Kawanatanga ote koroni. Engari ki toku mahara me penei te tikanga me whakatu he Poari motuhake i raro i te Kingi, kia ahua rere ke te ahua i to nga Poari mo te Tai Eawhiti, ma te penei ka rite ai to ratou hiahia. Na mo te ki nei he tangata kuare he tangata whenua kore nga tangata Maori toru mano i tuku pitihana nei ratou mo te Pire nei, c kata ana matou mo tenei korero. Engari he tika, he nui rawa nga whenua a etahi o nga tangata i tuku pitihana nei ratou mo te Pire nei, aka ahei matou te ki penei: kaore ano aua tangata tekau nga mano i haina nei ratou i te pitihana turaki i te Pire i hoatu noa i etahi o a ratou whenua mo nga tangata c toru mano i haina nei ite pitihana hapai ite Pire. Heoi taku kupu mo nga tangata korero pera, he porangi ratou, ehara ratou i Niu Tireni, inahoki te kuare. I rongo hoki ahau na te Pakeha aua whakaaro, ana te Pakeha i hanga taua pitihana. Na mo te kupu whakahe mo nga Tiati me nga Ateha ote Kooti Whenua Maori, c pouri ana ahau mo aua kupu whakapae, c ki nei i riro ratou te whakawai kite moni me era atu mea. He kupu he rawa era. B wha nga tau etu ana ahau hei Ateha, a kaore au i taeate hoko kite moni. E whakahe ana ahau ki enei tv korero. Ka taea c ahau te whakahua i nga ingoa o etahi Ateha tokomaha i roto ite koroni nei, he tangata pai, he tangata mahi tika. I korero ake ra ahau, c wha nga tau c tv ana ahau hei Ateha, a kaore i ara he whakawa tuarua he piira ranei mo nga keehi i whakataua c ahau. Te take i mahue ai i ahau te mahi Ateha he iti no te utu. He nui te utu mo nga Tiati, ko te utu mo nga Ateha he kore noa iho. Na kona i mahue ai i nga tino tangata totika taua mahi. Heoi, ka tuaruatia eau aku kupu whakahe mo nga kupu whakapae a nga kai-turaki i te Pire nei mo nga Ateha ote Kooti Whenua Maori. He maha nga iwi o te Tai Hauauru c tautoko ana i te Pire nei ma hoki kei te tautoko nga Maori o Patea ki uta ite Pire nei, me nga Maori hoki o Whanganui ki uta. E hiahia ana ratou katoa kia paahitia taua Pire hei ture; na te kaha anake o nga kai-turaki ite Pire i riro ai etahi o aua Maori a uru ana ki ta ratou pitihana. E hiahia ana ahau kite whakamutu i taku whai korero. Ka tono au kite Komiti kia ata tirotirohia i nga menamena i mahia i te hui ki Papawai, ka tono hoki au kia paahitia nga wahi o nga menamena c whakaaro ana te Komiti c tika ana kia paahitia. Kaore o matou nei wehi mo te tukunga iho kite paahitia te Pire nei. E waiho atu ana c matou te Pire nei kite ringa 0 te Whare me te Kawanatanga, me ta matou mohio ano, kite kitea a muri ake kei te he etahi wahi ote Pire nei, a c tau ana kia whakatikatikaia, tera ka whakatikaia ano kia pai ai. Ko a matou nei menamena me kaua c kiia he menamena whakahe kite Pire, engari he whakaatu i etahi tikanga, he mahara na matou, kite whakaurua aua menamena, ka neke ake te pai ote Pire nei. Kia ora nga mema ote Komiti. Kua mutu aku korero. 719. Kapena Bahera: E penei ana taku mohio atu kite tikanga oau korero, kei te whakaae koe kite Pire ate Pirimia; c pera ana koia tau ? Paratene Ngata: Ac ; engari tera ano au c tono atu kite Komiti nei kia whakatikatikaina etahi wahi o taua Pire. 720. Kapene Bahera: Xi te paahitia te Pire engari kite hoatu ki roto ite Pire me tokomaha ake nga mema Pakeha o te Poari i nga mema Maori, ka mau tonu ranei to hiahia kite Pire ? Paratene Ngata: Ac; ka tautoko tonu au i te Pire. Xi te paahitia ko tona ahua c takoto nei kaati tonu, waiho kia whakamatauria, ma nga whakahaerenga mahi o muri atu c whakaatu mai kei te pai ranei kia peratia te whakatu o nga mema ote Poari kei te kino ranei. Xi te kitea kei te kino, heoi a tona ra ka ata whakarongo ano te Kawanatanga me te Paremete ki a matou whakahe mo te tv o nga mema o te Poari. 721. Kapene Bahera: Ko te hea te mea pai, ko te Pire kia paahitia, ahakoa he Pakeha te nuinga o te Poari, ko te Pire ranei kia kaua c paahitia ? Paratene Ngata: Ac; ko te Pire kia paahitia te mea pai, notemea he maha nga rarunaru c pa ana kite iwi Maori c ai ana hei mahi ma te Pire i naianei. 722. Kapene Bahera : Xi te uru a koutou menemana kite Pire, a kite mutu te Poari ma oti i a ia etahi mahi, kei hea he Kooti Piira ki tau mo nga whakatau i he te mahi c te Poari. Paratene Ngata: Xi taku, me tuku atu ena mea ma te Poari c mahi. Ko nga mahi anake mo te riihi me te whakahaere i te whenua nga mahi a te Poari c mutu, ka tv tonu te Poari hei whakawa 1 nga keehi piira. 723. Kapene Bahera : Me Poari ke ra pea mana c whakawa, kaore c tika kia tukuna atu nga keehi piira kia whakawakia c te Poari nana rate whakatau he c piiratia ra ? Paratene Ngata : Ko te komiti te Kooti mana c whakawa c whakatau nga keehi i te tuatahi, a ko te Poari te Kooti Piira mo nga whakatau ate komiti c piiratia ana. Ko nga piira i runga i nga whakatau a te Poari me whakatu he tangata mo era mahi penei me nga Pakeha c whakatu nei i etahi tangata hei apitireihana. Me ahua pera he tikanga c tino oti ai. 10—I. 3a.

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724. Kapene Bahera : Me tuku atu ma aua kai-apitireihana c whakamutu rawa? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Kaore he take c pitihana ai nga tangata kite Whare. - 725. Kapene Bahera : I whakahe ia nei koe i te Pire a Henare Kaihau notemea ki tau kei te whakatete taua Pire i te Kawanatanga o te koroni? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 726. Kapene Bahera : Whakamaramatia te rereketanga o tana Pire i ta koutou nei tikanga ? Paratene Ngata : Ko te tikanga o tana Pire c mea ana me taka nga whenua Maori katoa o te koroni nei ki raro ite mana ote Kaunihera ote Kingi. Ko te Kingi Maori hei upoko. 727. Kapene Bahera : Kaore koia tau i pera, ko nga Maori hei upoko me te Poari i raro i tenei Pire? Paratene Ngata : K,aore i te pena ta matou. E mea ana ta matou ko te Komihana mo nga Whenua o te Karauna hei upoko mo te Poari. 728. Kapene Bahera : Kotahi tonu ia, tokowha rawa nga mema Maori ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; koia tena. 729. Kapene Bahera : Kaore koia te Pire a Henare Kaihau c tono mana ana mo etahi atu takiwa ote Motu nei, haunga a Waikato; c rite tahi ana pea te tikanga ota koutou Pire ki tana ? Paratene Ngata : E penei ana te tikanga o taku korero : kaore au c pai kia eke te mana o tana Pire ki runga ki toku takiwa. 730. Kapene Bahera : E tika ana ; engari c hiahia ana ahau kia mohio au kite rereketanga o ta koutou tikanga i ta Henare Kaihau tikanga? Paratene Ngata : Tetahi rereketanga o te Pire a Henare Kaihau i ta matou, ki tana me utu nga reiti me nga taake kite Kaunihera Maori. Xi ta matou nei whakaaro ka mate te iwi Maori i tera tikanga, notemea ka rua nga reiti hei utu ma matou, ara, kotahi reiti kite Kingi Maori me tona Kaunihera, a kotahi reiti kite Kawanatanga. 731. Kapene Bahera : Engari pea te tikanga c whakatautauria ai nga take ki nga whenua me te whakahaerenga o nga whenua c rite tahi ana i roto i nga Pire. Paratene Ngata : Xi taku whakaaro kaore i te rite tahi, ma hoki ki ta Henare Kaihau Pire me riro ma te Kaunihera Maori nga ruri me era atu tv mea c whakahaere, kaore i te pera tenei Pire. 732. Kapene Bahera : I korero koe i te nui o to pouri mo te nui o te kai waipiro a te Maori; kua iti haere pea taua mahi i naianei ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ki etahi takiwa i etahi taima. Kei etahi taima kua nui ano ; c pena ana te ahua. 733. Kapene Bahera: Kei te pai ake pea te ahua i naianei ite ahua otewa i tua atu ote rua tekau tau kua pahemo nei ? Paratene Ngata : Kua kore c pera rawa te kino. I taua wa he nui atu nga whenua c hokona ana na reira ka nui hoki te moni hei whakapau ki taua kai. Kua iti iho te hoko whenua i naianei, na reira kua iti iho hoki nga moni hei kai ma ratou. 734. Kapene Bahera : Ehara ranei i te mea na te tupu haere o nga matauranga Pakeha i roto i te iwi Maori i kore haere ai ta ratou kai waipiro ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, c tika ana tena; na nga Hahi karakia tetahi ana te akonga i nga tamariki kite kura tetahi. He pai katoa enei hei peehi i taua kai. 735. Kapene Bahera : I korero ano hoki koe i te nui o to pouri mo nga tangihanga tupapaku, i te nui o te kai c moumouria ana me nga waipiro c kainga ana c taua mahi ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 736. Kapene Bahera : Katahi pea ka nui rawa te kai waipiro kite hoatu nga whenua ki raro i te Poari, engaringari ano pea te wehewehe i nga whenua ki ia tangata hei peehi i te kai waipiro ? Paratene Ngata : Xi taku whakaaro kaore c iti iho, c nui ake ranei, taua mahi moumou moni whakapau taonga kite hoatu ma te Poari c whakahaere nga whenua. 737. Kapene Bahera : Katahi pea ka iti iho te moumou moni mo nga tangihanga me era tv mahi kite riro ma ia tangata ano ona whenua me ona rawa c whakahaere, he he rawa pea te tuku ma te Poari c whakahaere ? Paratene Ngata : Te huarahi pai hei peehi i tena tv mahi ko te whakatu i nga komiti Maori pera me taku i korero ake ra. 738. Kapene Bahera : Ehara tena i te utu ki taku patai? Paratene Ngata : E penei ana taku utu mo tena patai ka whakaturia he komiti motuhake hei whakahaere i ena tv mahi—a hei tiaki i nga moni kei moumouria, me etahi utu mea. Na mo te taha ote patai cpa ana kite wehewehenga i nga whenua, he tikanga pai tena mo nga whenua c rite mo ana tena tv mahi. 739. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ano i tae ki kona taku patai. Taku patai ki a koe, mehemea nou ake tou whenua a kaore rawa c taea ana koe te whakararuraru c tetahi, ka taea ranei koe te kukume atu kite moumou i o moni mo nga tangihanga; waihoki mehemea ite Poari to whenua c whakahaere ana, katahi pea koe ka riro i te Poari te kukume ki runga ki aua mahi ? Paratene Ngata: He patai uaua tena kite whakahoki. Mehemea ite Poari taku whenua c whakahaere ana a i te Poari aku moni c tiaki ana, heoi i te mea kei te Poari aku moni c pupuri ana, kaati, c kore au c whiwhi moni hei moumou maku, engari ka noho tonu au i raro i nga tikanga Maori. 740. Kapene Bahera: Kaore koe c whakahoki mai i taku patai. Ka vi atu ano au ki a koe, mehemea kua motuhake ki a koe anake to whenua, ka iti iho pea au moni c whakapau ai, a ka nui rawa pea nga mea c pau mehemea c riro ana ma etahi atu c whakahaere o moni ? Paratene Ngata : Heoi te mea c taea c au ko te tiaki i aku moni, kaore c whakapaua mehemea ka whakakorea atu nga tikanga Maori. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaore pea i marama te takoto atu ote patai. Ka tono atu au ki a Kapene Rahera kia tukuna mai maku c patai atu i runga i tetahi atu aronga. E hiahia ana koe kite patai atu kite kai-whakahoki patai, mehemea kua motuhake ki aia anake tona whenua, ka iti iho ranei

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ana moni c whakapau ai mo nga tangihanga, ara, kaua c riro ma te Poari c whakapau ana moni mo aua tv mahi, mehemea ra koia tera te mahi a te Poari he whakapau moni mo nga tangihanga. Kapene Bahera : Ko taku hiahia he peehi i nga tikanga Maori kia kore atu, a patai ana au ki a ia', mehemea kaore ranei c iti iho ana moni c whakapau ai mo nga tangihanga mehemea c riro ana mana ano c whakahaere ona whenua kaore c riro ana ma te Poari c whakahaere. Wi Pere : Me ki noa ake kua wehea tona whenua—kua motuhake ki a ia anake —c kore c pai ake i tena tona noho. Ka mau tonu iaia te mahi moumou i ana moni notemea ka mau tonu ia ki nga tikanga Maori. 741. Kapene Bahera : Mehemea kua wehea ki ia tangata tona whenua a kua riro mana ano c whakahaere, kaore ranei c kore haere i tera nga tikanga Maori c kai-kino nei i te moni ? Paratene Ngata : E kore pea c kore haere nga tikanga Maori, kia mau ra ano i nga Maori nga tikanga Pakeha katahi ka kore. Kia riro ra ano pea nga rangatira me nga tangata Maori hei kuare penei me te Pakeha katahi ka mutu. 742. Kapene Bahera : Xi te whakawhiwhia te tangata Maori ki ona tika kia motuhake ki a ia ona whenua me ona rawa, c kore ranei tera c riro hei ako i a ia ki nga tikanga Pakeha ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, c tika ana tena ; engari c kore c mate nga tikanga Maori. 743. Kapene Bahera : Kaore koe c kaha ana kite utu ite patai ? Paratene Ngata : I ki atu na hoki au, ae. 744. Kapene Bahera : Tetahi korero au, nau ano i whakatupu o tamariki ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 745. Kapene Bahera : I haere ranei koe kite komiti Maori kia tohutohungia mai koe ki nga tikanga o tera mahi ? Paratene Ngata :He mea ako au kite kura i toku tamarikitanga. 746. Kapene Bahera :Na nga komiti Maori koe i tuku kite kura? Paratene Ngata: Kaore ;na aku matua au i tuku. 747. Kapene Bahera, .- A nau ano au tamariki i tuku kite kura? Paratene Ngata :Ac ; naku ano aku tamariki i tuku kite kura; engari no te whakatuunga o nga komiti Maori ka uru au hei mema mo te komiti. 748. Kapene Bahera: I hoatu moni ranei te komiti ki a koe hei tuku i o tamariki kite kura? - - Paratene Ngata : Kaore. 749. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ratou i hoatu moni i tohutohu ranei i a koe ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore kau he komiti whakahaere i nga tamariki kura i taua wa, pera me taku i korero ake ra. 750. Kapene Bahera : Mehemea i tohutohungia koe c te komiti i taua wa katahi ranei ka nuku ake te pai o to whakahaere i o tamariki ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore c taea c au te whakahoki i tena patai. 751. Kapene Bahera : Pehea to utu i te patai? Paratene Ngata : Ko taku utu, kaore kau he komiti i aua ra, a naku ano aku tamariki i tuku kite kura. Taku tama i tukuna nei eauki te kura, i puta rawa nei ite kura, na aku ake moni i tuku kite kura, kaore au i awhinatia c tetahi tangata. 752. Kapene BaJiera : I korero mai koe ki a matou c moumou ana te matauranga o nga tamariki Maori c akona ana ki nga kura notemea kei te hokinga ki nga kainga Maori kua kore c pai tera ahua kainga hei nohoanga mo ratou ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 753. Kapene Bahera: Kaore ranei c tika kia whakangaromia atu tera ahua ote kainga Maori ? Paratene Ngata : Xi taku me whakatu he komiti. Ma te komiti c whakahaere ena mea katoa, c peehi c arai nga tikanga Maori. E whakaae ana ahau kia wehewehea nga whenua. 754. Kapene Bahera : Engari kite tukuna mau ano c whakahaere tau whanau me tou whenua katahi pea ka mama ake to peehi i nga tikanga kino, ara, kite kore c riro ma tetahi atu hunga koe c whakahaere ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; ki taku mahara. 755. Kapene Bahera : Kaore ha, ko te mea tika pea me hanga he ture kia whai mana ai a ia tangata kite whakahaere i ona whenua me ana mea katoa, ara, kaua c hoatu ma etahi tangata tokoono, ehara nei i a ratou ake aua mea, c whakahaere ? Paratene Ngata: Ac, c tika ana; engari kaore tena c taea. Ina hoki, me ki noa ake, tera tetahi poraka whenua 1,000 nga eka, kotahi rau nga tangata nona taua whenua. Na, me wehewehe kia kotahi rau nga wawahanga. Hei reira ka whakahaerea nga ruri, nga whakawa, nga piira, me etahi atu mahi, me o ratou utu ano. Ka oti era mea katoa katahi ano ka tino wehewehe ia wahanga ia wahanga, a ko nga moni katoa nana i taea ai tenei mahi ka whakataua ki runga ki taua whena ma taua whenua c utu. Tena pea aua moni c nuku atu ite hawhe ote wariu o taua whenua ; engari pea mehemea he whenua rahi ake c tokoiti ana nga tangata nona, katahi pea ka taea te whakahaere o tau c korero nei. 756. Kapene Bahera: A kaati, me waiho tonu koia te Maori kia rite ana ki tetahi tamaiti nohinohi c arahina haeretia ana? Paratene Ngata : Xi taku whakaaro ko nga poraka pera te ahua me taku i korero atu nei, a he maha nga tangata nona, me wehewehe ki ia hapu. 757. Kapene Bahera : Xi to whakaaro koia c kore rawa c taea te wa c rite ai te noho a te Maori ki ta te Pakeha ? Paratene Ngata: Te mea tuatahi me hutihuti ake nga tikanga Maori kia mate atu. Ko te ahua i naianei kei te tupu tahi raua ko nga tikanga Pakeha i to raua whenua kotahi, a kei te taupatupatu ki a raua. Kei te rereke ta te Pakeha titiro kei te rereke ta te Maori. Ko te tikanga Maori te ora ote Maori. Xi ta te Pakeha tikanga kaua te Maori c hoatu noa atu i ana kai me ana kau ma tetahi engari me utu ano, engari kei tona tuponotanga ki nga mahi c whakahaerea ana i runga i te tikanga Maori kaore ia c kore te whiu i ana kai,

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758. Kapene Bahera : Ehara tena ite utu ki taku patai. Ko taku c hiahia ana kia mohio au, koia tenei, kei te anga ranei, kaore ranei, nga whakaaro o te iwi Maori ki nga ra c takoto ake nei, ara, kite wa c rite ai te noho a te Maori ki ta te Pakeha ? Paratene Ngata : Koia tena taku c tumanako atu nei; engari me ata haere c taea ai. 759. Kapene Bahera: Kaati, ki to whakaaro, kaore te iwi Maori c tika ana i naianei hei whakahaere i ana whenua me ana taonga ? Paratene Ngata : Kei te kaha te Maori kite whakahaere i a ia, engari ko nga tikanga Maori kei te peehi i a ia. Koia tera te take i kore ai te Maori c puta. 760. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, to te mahi pea ma tatou he patu i aua tikanga kia mate atu? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; engari ko te mahi tuatahi hei patu i nga tikanga Maori me whakatu nga komiti c korerotia nei c au. 761. Kapene Bahera: Kaati, ki to whakaaro, kite riro ma te tangata Maori ano nona te whenua c whakahaere tona whenua ka mate taua tangata, engari kite riro ma tetahi komiti c whakahaere katahi taua tangata ka tino ora ? Paratene Ngata : Ka korero atu ano au, ko nga poraka whenua he maha nga tangata nona, a kaore c taea taua whenua te wawahi, me tuku atu kite komiti; engari ko nga whenua c wehewehea ana ki ia tangata, me waiho atu ma ia tangata ma ia tangata c whakahaere tona ake wahanga o taua whenua.

Taite, 20 Oketopa, 1898. Paeatene Ngata : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 762. Hon. Timi Kara : He kotahi koia te whakaaro o te nuinga o nga tangata Maori o Niu Tireni kia whakamutua te hoko whenua ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 763. Hon. Timi Kara : Nga hoko c rua, ta te Kawanatanga me ta nga Pakeha noa iho ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 764. Hon. Timi Kara : I whakaae nga tangata katoa i tae kite hui ki Papawai ki tena? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; engari ko tetahi wahanga o te iwi i haere i runga i te tono mana motuhake, ko tetahi wahanga i haere i runga ite tono kia whakaturia he Kaunihera Maori. Otira, te hiahia ote iwi katoa, i runga i taku i mohio atu ai ki nga whai korero i reira, me rahui nga morehu whenua c toe nei kite iwi Maori, ame whakamutu te hoko whenua. 765. Hon. Timi Kara : A koia tera te kupu nui i roto i ta ratou pukapuka inoi i tuku atu ai kite Kuini ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 766. Hon. Timi Kara : I a ratou c korero ana kia whakamutua te hoko whenua i whiriwhiri ano ranei ratou mo nga wahi whenua hei kape ki waho; i whakaaro ano ranei ratou c taka ki waho o taua tikanga kati ite hoko whenua; i whakaae ano ranei ratou kia puare kite hoko etahi wahi whenua i runga ano i etahi tino take tino tikanga ? Paratene Nqata : Kaore he kupu pena i puta. Kotahi tonu te mea i kotahi te whakaaro o nga Maori, ara, me tino kati rawa atu te hoko whenua. Otira i penei ano tetahi kupu: ko nga whenua kaore c taea te riihi te whakahaere ranei i runga i tetahi tikanga marama, me whai mana nga tangata no ratou kite tohutohu mai ita ratou i hiahia ai kia whakahaerea ki runga kia aua whenua. 767. Hon. Timi Kara : I te takotoranga o tena whakaaro a te katoa o nga Maori me kati te hoko whenua, i mohio ano ranei ratou me hanga ano he ture kia ahei ai ratou kite wehewehe i nga whenua ki ia tangata ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 768. Hon. Timi Kara : A kei roto pea i te Pire i whakatikatikaina nei c te hui ki Papawai te tikanga i oti i nga Maori hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua? Paratene Ngata : Koia tena. 769. Hon. Timi Kara :Xi taku mohio atu ki o korero no te takanga kite mahinga o aua menemana whakatikatika ka pakaru tetahi wehenga o te hui ki waho o aua menemana, ara, nga mangai o nga hapu o etahi takiwa o te koroni? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 770. Hon. Timi Kara : Ara, ko nga tangata c tautoko ana i te Pire a Henare Kaihau hui atu ki nga tangata c tautoko ana i te mana motuhake nga iwi i pakaru ki waho, a mahue ana ko te hunga anake c tautoko ana i te Pire a te Kawanatanga i w r hakatikatikaina nei hei mahi i nga menemana mo te Pire. Paratene Nflata : Ac. 771. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaati, c pera ana te ahua i naianei o nga Maori. Paratene Ngata: Ac. 772. Hon. Timi Kara : I patairia koe i nanahi, ko te hea te tikanga pai o nga tikanga c rua, ko te wehewehe ranei i nga whenua ki ia Maori kia puritia ai c ratou i runga i te tikanga fee-simple penei me nga Pakeha, ko te waiho topu ranei i nga whenua me nga Maori i runga i tetahi tikanga c whakakotahitia ai te whakahaere o ratou whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 773. Hon. Timi Kara :Ka taea ranei c koe te korero kite Komiti nga painga me nga kinonga o tetahi o tetahi o ena tikanga whakahaere c rua ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, ka taea c au. Na, mo te tikanga wehewehe ki ia tangata, he tikanga pai rawa tena mo nga whenua Maori nunui c taea ana te whakamahi, ara, mo nga whenua ma wehewehea ka rarahi nga wawahanga ki ia tangata, ka eke te wariu oia wahanga kite wariu c taea ana te whakamahi. Engari, tena ano etahi poraka be maha nga tangata kei roto, na reira c kore c pai kia wehewehea nga paanga oia tangata, ma te take: ka ririki noa iho nga piihi c wehea ana ki ia tangata, ahe nui rawa te moni c pau i te wawahanga me te ruritanga, na reira kaore rawa he whai huanga c peratia ai; engari mo nga whenua c tika ana mo taua tv mahi ko te tikanga pai hei whakahaere i ena ko te

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whakatu i tetahi ropu tangata, ara, i nga komiti poraka, ma ratou c whakahaere te whenua mo te taha ki nga tangata nona. 774. Hon. Timi Kara: Kia marama ai te haere atu o nga patai ki a koe, me ki noa ake c tatou, ko nga tv whenua c korerotia mama c koe, c rua ona ahua, he Nama Ihe Nama 2. Me ki ko Nama 1 . he tino whenua papai ena kei roto i nga takiwa kua kiki i te Pakeha te noho, kei te kaha rawa te tupu haere o nga mahi Pakeha ki reira, ako aua whenua Nama Ihe poraka ririki. Ko ena ranei nga whenua c ki nei koe ka tika kia wehewehea ki ia tangata ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. He tika, ka taea ano nga whenua papai te wehewehe. Heoi ano te moni nui c pau ko te utunga i nga ruri. Ko te hiahia tena o te Maori kia wehewehea ki ia tangata o roto i te whenua nga whenua papai nui te utu. 775. Hon. Timi Kara : Me ki ko nga whenua i Haaki Pei, i Wairarapa, i Whanganui, ara, nga whenua o aua takiw r a kei te mau i nga Maori: ki tau he whenua Nama 1, ranei era ? Paratene, Ngata : Ac. 776. Hon Timi Kara : Na, mo nga whenua kei raro iho te pai—ara, nga whenua nunui, engari he maunga, he ngaherehere, he raratihe, me era tv ahua, a he maha nga tangata kei roto i ia poraka, engari c pai ana ano kite riihi mehemea ka nunui nga wawahanga c riihitia ana : c whakaae ana koe me ki he Nama 2 era. Paratene Ngata : Ac. 777. Hon. Timi Kara : Mo nga whenua kikino pera me nga manaia o Taupo, me etahi o nga whenua o te takiwa o Waikato, o te takiwa o Te Arawa me te takiwa o Ngapuhi, ara, nga whenua kaore nei c pai hei mahinga ma te Maori, heoi te painga hei riihi, hei hoko nui tonu atu ranei ; ka whakaae ranei koe me ki era c Nama 3 ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ;me karanga he Nama 3he Nama 4. Kei au ano hoki etahi whenua pera— he maunga he kohatu. 778. Hon. Timi Kara : Ina pea to korero kite Komiti, c taea ai te wehewehe o nga poraka ki ia tangata, c whai painga, mo taua tangata, ko nga whenua Nama 1 anake ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 779. Hon. Timi Kara: Xi to mohio he nui nga whenua Nama 1 c toe ana ki nga Maori ite koroni nei i naianei ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore. Kei te mohio au he iti noa iho. Kei te mohio au he iti noa iho nga whenua Nama 1 c toe ana. Kua kite au i nga whenua katoa o Heretaunga, o Wairarapa, o Manawatu, me Whanganui, a c mohio ana au he iti noa iho nga whenua o reira c toe ana kite Maori. 780. Hon. Timi Kara: Ko ena pea nga ahua whenua i mate tuatahi ite puaretanga ote hoko ate Maori i nga whenua ki nga Pakeha noa iho ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. E tika ana, ko ena hoki nga tv whenua i nui te utu ite hokona a nga Pakeha. 781. Hon. Timi Kara: Mo nga whenua Nama 1, kaore ranei au whakahe, au mea ranei kaua era tv whenua c wehewehea ki ia tangata ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore aku whakahe ki tena. Engari, kei nga tangata no ratou era tv whenua te tikanga, ma ratou c ki ta ratou c pai ai. 782. Hon. Timi Kara : Engari kei te mohio pea koe he pai taua tikanga mo etahi, mo katoa ranei, o aua tv whenua. Paratene Ngata : Ac. 783. Hon. Timi Kara : Ka tae ta tatou korero i naianei ki nga whenua Nama 2. E penei ana pea to whakahe i mea ai koe kaore c tika era tv whenua kia wehewehea ki ia tangata, he maha no nga tangata kei roto i aua tv poraka, a kite wehewehea nga paanga oia tangata he nui rawa te moni c pau i nga ruri, i nga whii, me era atu mea hei utu ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 784 Hon Timi Kara : Xi taku mahara i ki koe, mehemea ka nunui nga wahanga ki. ia tangata, kia taea ai te mahi kia ea ai nga moni i pau i te wehewehenga i te whenua, mehemea ka pera te ahua c kore koe c whakahe? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; mehemea he tokoiti nga tangata nona te whenua, a he nunui nga wawahanga ma wehewehea katahi ka taea. 785. Hon. Timi Kara: Ka taea ranei c koe te korero mai kei te hea nama te nuinga o nga whenua c toe nei c mau nei i nga Maori i tenei ra, kei te Nama 2 ranei te nuinga, kei nga Nama 2, 3, 4 ranei. Paratene Ngata, : Kei te Nama 2 kei te Nama 3 te nuinga, ko nga whenua Nama 1, nunui, tokoiti nga tangata o roto, kua mene katoa ena te hoko. Ko nga whenua c toe ana, he maha nga tangata kei roto, kua hoko etahi kei te mau tonu nga hea o etahi. Na reira ka tika nga toenga c toe ana o enei tv whenua kia karangatia he Nama 2 he Nama 3. 786. Hon. Timi Kara : I te mea he tangata koe c mohio ana ki nga ahua o nga whenua Nama 2 Nama 3 puta noa i te koroni, tena, mehemea ka wehewehea aua tv whenua ki ia tangata, c hia ranei nga eka ma te tangata kotahi ? Paratene Ngata : Ka korero au mo toku ake takiwa. He maha nga poraka o toku takiwa, kua wehewehea ki ia tangata, aki etahi o aua whenua noho ai kite 10 eka ma te tangata, ki etahi 1 eka, ki etahi nuku atu ite 10 eka, aki etahi he koata eka noa iho ma te tangata. Engari he maha nga poraka i uru ai aua tangata, penei me au, he paanga toku ki tetahi poraka ki tetahi poraka. He maha nga poraka c whai paanga ana te tangata i te takiwa kotahi, engari he ririki aua paanga. 787. Hon. Timi Kara : E pai ana ;ko koe tonu he tauira. Me ki tekau nga poraka i uru ai koe, ame ki noa ake 10 eka te nui oia paanga o ia paanga ou ki ia poraka ki ia poraka. Hui katoa ena paanga ka 100 eka. Ka puta ranei he painga ki a koe i runga ite tikanga wehewehe i nga whenua ki ia tangata? Ara, kite rohea atu ia 10 eka i roto iia o aua poraka kotahi tekau, ka puta ranei he painga i tena tikanga, me pehea ranei he whakahaere i aua kotahi tekau poraka i wehewehea atu ra ki a koe.

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Paratene Ngata : Kaore he painga c putu ki au, ko te take: Tuatahi, ko te utunga i nga ruri me te Kooti, a tena pea c kino ki au te whakatau a te Kooti. . Ko wai ka hua, tena pea ka whakataua tetahi p aku 10 eka ki tetahi tahataha pari, kaore c whakataua kite raorao kite wahi c taea ana te mahi c au. Katahi pea ahau ka tono piira, katahi hoki ka apitiria atu nga utu o tera mahi, te tukunga iho pau tonu atu taua 100 eka me tetahi atu 100 eka hoki. 788. Hon. Timi Kara ; Mehemea he poraka c 5,000 nga eka kei tetahi takiwa, a c wha c rima rau ranei nga tangata no ratou te poraka, aka tae ake ki taua takiwa etahi Pakeha ka hiahia kite riihi, a ka tono ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua kia riihitia atu ki a ratou kia 1,000 eka kia 500 eka ranei ma tetahi ma tetahi o aua Pakeha, tera atu mo etahi. Ko te hea te tikanga pai c mama ai te whakaoti o aua riihi i waenganui i nga Maori me nga Pakeha, ko te wehewehe i te whenua ki ia tangata, ko te tuku atu ranei ite whenua ma tetahi hunga, c rite ana te ahua kite Poari i raro ite Pire nei, c riihi atu c whakahaere atu ? Paratene Nqata : Ko te mea tika rawa ko te whakatu i tetah i ropu tangata i roto i nga tangata no ratou te whenua pena me tau c korero na, ma taua hunga c whakahaere te taha ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua, c whakaoti atu nga riihi ki nga Pakeha c hiahia ana kite riihi ite whenua. Kia taea ai te wehewehe o nga moni reti ki ia tangata, ko nga paanga anake kite whenua c whakatau, engari kaua c wawahia te whenua. 789. Hon. Timi Kara : Mehemea nei c penei ana te tikanga o to korero : mo nga whenua pena me nga mea c korerotia nei, he pai rawa ma tetahi ropu nga Maori c whakahaere—ahakoa he Poari, he komiti he aha ranei te ingoa o taua ropu —ma taua ropu ka terete whiwhi o te Pakeha i te taitara mo tana riihi, a ko nga paanga o ia tangata Maori no ratou te poraka me waiho tena mo muri kimihia ai, kaore he tikanga c tapatapahia ai te whenua i te tuatahi, ara, me ahua rite ki ta te kamupene whakahaere he tikanga ? Paratene Ngata: Ac ; ma te Poari c whakahaere ena tv mea katoa. Ko te komiti poraka i whakaturia c te hapu hei hoa whiriwhiri tahi mo te Poari, ma taua komiti poraka c whakaatu kite Poari nga hiahia ote iwi. Koi na anake ki taku whakaaro te huarahi c whai hua ai c pai ai te whakahaere me te mahi o ena tv whenua. 790. Hon. Timi Kara : Mehemea ka tv i te ture he Poari, he komiti ranei, hei whakahaere i taua 5,000 eka i runga ite riihi kite Pakeha c hiahia ana kite whenua, hei whakaotioti i nga tikanga ote riihi me era tv mea, pehea te roa ki tau ka oti he taitara mo te Pakeha ? Paratene Ngata .'Kaore c roa rawa; poto noa iho. 791. Hon. Timi Kara : Ka oti ranei i te ra kotahi i te wiki kotahi ranei ? Paratene Ngata : Heoi te mea mana c whakaroa ko te whakariterite ki nga Maori ite tuatahi. Ko te hainatanga ote tiiti kite Pakeha, ka oti tena ite hoara kotahi. 792. Hon. Timi Kara : Tena, mehemea ka wehewehea taua whenua ki ia tangata ki ia tangata o taua poraka 5,000 eka, kia motuhake he taitara mo ia tangata i mua o te riihitanga atu ki nga Pakeha, pehea te roa ka oti te mahi pera. Paratene Ngata : Tena pea c pau te tekau tau a c kore c oti katoa. E korero atu ana ahau i aku i kite ai i mohio ai. Naku i whakahaere he riihi mo etahi whenua i mua ma Ta Hori Witimoa. E waru nga poraka i roto i taua riihi, a c waru rau nga tangata i uru ki roto ki aua poraka. E toru nga tau c mahi ana au kite whaiwhai haere i nga tangata i etahi wahi ote Motu nei kite haina haere i nga tangata kite riihi. Ko te hawhe noa iho o ratou i riro mai i au, ko tetahi hawhe kaore i taea. No muri noa iho nei ka tv he komiti, katahi ka oti. 793. Hon. Timi Kara : I tatu te whakaaro o nga tangata o ena poraka, he pai rawa te whakatu komiti poraka mana c whakahaere taua mahi katoa kia wawe te oti o nga tangata i toe te haina kite riihi ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Tetahi mea :ka tupono ki nga whenua uaua nui te moni c pau ite hainatanga i nga tangata ka iti noa iho te moni reti c whakaaetia etc Pakeha. Notemea ka whakaaro ia kite nui o nga moni c pau i nga tangata haina haere i nga ingoa o nga tangata nona te whenua. I tetahi wa ka haere au me te Kai-whakawa me te kai-whakamaori kite haina i tetahi tangata kotahi, ahe roa te taima i pau i a matou i taua mahi ka oti. I haere rawa matou ki Kennedy Bay ki te haina i taua tangata kotahi, a hui katoa nga moni i pau i te haerenga ki reira, nuku atu ana i te £50, a ko te moni reti ma taua tangata a 7s. 6d. tonu i te tau, koi nei hei tohu maku i te he o taua tikanga, na kona i tika ai te tono kia hanga he tikanga hou. 794. Hon. Timi Kara: Tetahi tikanga c iti ai te moni c pau ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 795. Hon. Timi Kara : I runga i te maha o ou tau c tv ana koe hei Ateha hei kai-whakahaere hoki mo nga tuku whenua Maori i runga 1 te riihi i te hoko ranei, a i te mea hoki he tangata koe c uru ana ki nga poraka maha, ki to mahara me penei ranei me te Pire nei he tikanga, haunga rate penei rawa —engari kia whai te ahua i ta te Kawanatanga c mea nei, koi ra he tikanga mo naianei c ora ai ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Me korero ake eau tetahi poraka ko Waipiro te ingoa, hei tauira mo taku korero. He maha nga tangata nona taua poraka —me ki c tata ana kite rima rau. Wahia ana mai i roto i taua poraka tetahi wahi no matou ko toku hapu, a whakaturia ana c matou he komiti. Tokoiwa no-a mema o taua komiti, ko ahau tetahi, he mea whakatu taua komiti i runga i te tikauga tiiti. Kei te riihitia taua whenua i naianei, ako matou, ko te komiti, kite whakahaere i nga tangata katoa i uru ki taua poraka me nga mea katoa c pa ana ki taua whenua, kotahi ano haora c mahi ana i nga mahi kua mutu. Ko matou, ko te komiti, kite tango i nga moni reti, ka utu atu ki nga tangata ote whenua i runga ite hea o tenei o tenei o ratou. Kaore he utu mo te komiti mo ta ratou mahi, heoi nga moni c riro mai ana iau ko nga moni reti o toku ake paanga Na mo te komiti poraka c whakaarohia nei me mahi tahi raua ko te Poari hei whakatautau i nga taitara o nga whenua, me korero atu au tera tetahi whenua, ko Waipiro poraka, c 30,000 nga eka, na naku me tetahi komiti, i whiriwhiri taua poraka, i waho o te Kooti, a wehewehea ana c maiou kia rima nga wahanga, a whakariteritea, ana c matou nga paanga oia tangata i roto i aua wahanga c rima. He mea mahi tenei c matou i waho o te Kooti. Ka mutu i a matou te mahi, ka hoatu c matou kite Kooti, a heoi kau te mahi ma te Kooti he panui j nga rarangi ingoa mo ia wahanga rae nga hea i hoatu mo ia tangata c te komiti i whakaturia ra ki

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waho ote Kooti; Paahitia ana c te Kooti ta matou i mahi ai; a tau ana'.te poraka ki tera, a c mau mai nei, kaore i piiratia, kaore he raruraru, taea noatia tenei ra, 796. Hon. Timi Kara : Kei te riihitia pea ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Na te komiti i whakariterite te riihi, a kei te riihi tonu kite Pakeha tae mai ki tenei ra, kaore kau he raruraru. Koia tena ta matou c hiahia nei, kia hoatu ano te komiti poraka hei hoa mo te Poari kite whakaoti i nga mahi pena te ahua, ama te Poari c whakamana nga mahi a te komiti, 797. Hon. Timi Kara : I to korero mo Waipiro poraka, i ki koe i whakaturia te komiti poraka c nga tangata no ratou te whenua i runga i tetahi tikanga tiiti, a tukuna atu ana ki taua komiti o ratou mana katoa, ana taua komiti, mo te taha ki nga tangata i uru kite whenua, i riihi te whenua i runga ano i nga ritenga me nga moni reti i ata whiriwhiria i ata whakaaetia, a pai ana te whakahaere kaore kau he raruraru ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 798. Hon. Tiwi Kara : Koia tena te tikanga c hiahiatia nei c nga Maori i naianei kia whakamanangia c tetahi Ture. Paratene Ngata: Ac. 799. Hon. Timi Kara : Ma tena ka kore he moni c pau i te hainatanga haeretanga i nga tangata me te utu o nga tiiti, me era atu mahi katoa cpa ana kite hainatanga o nga tiiti ? 800. Hon. Timi Kara : Xi taku mohio atu ki b korero c penei ana tau : ko nga tikanga c mahia ai c whakahaerea ai nga poraka i roto i tetahi takiwa me riro ma tetahi komiti c whakahaere, he mea whakatu taua komiti c nga tangata nona te whenua? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 801. Hon. Timi Kara : A ma taua komiti c whakariterite nga tikanga o te riihi, me era atu mea ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 802. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaati he mahi ma te Poari he whakamana kau i nga whakahaerenga katoa c oti ana i te komiti i waenganui i nga Maori no ratou te whenua me nga Pakeha, me era atu mea ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 803. Hon. Timi Kara :A ko tetahi ahua me ahei nga komiti kite tono atu ki taua Poari kia hoatu he moni, ame whakamana te Poari kia ahei ai kite awhina kite moni i nga tangata Maori c hiahia ana kite whakapai i o ratou whenua kia puta ai he oranga ki a ratou i aua whenua. Paratene Ngata : Ac. 804 Hon. Timi Kara : Xi te tuku-a-nama atu ranei i etahi moni ki a ratou hei utu i nga ruri o nga whenua c tapatapahia ana hei tuku kite riihi? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 805. Hon. Timi Kara: Kaati, hei whakapoto i o korero, kaore au whakahe kia wehewehea ki ia tangata nga whenua Nama 1, ara, nga whenua pera, c nunui ana c taea aua te mahi, kia puta mai ai he ora ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore aku whakahe ki tena. 806. Hon. Timi Kara : Engari ko nga whenua Nama 2 me Nama 3, ara, te toenga o nga whenua, i runga i te ahua o te whenua, me te maha o nga tangata nona, me te nui o nga moni c pau i te wehewehenga ki ia tangala, ki tau whakaaro te tikanga pai mo era tv whenua me whakakaporeihana ratou hei komiti kia pai ai te whakahaere o o ratou whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 807. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaore oku hiahia kite whakataupatupatu i nga tikanga whakahaere c mau nei i roto i nga whakaaro o nga Maori, ara, ko te hea te mea pai,ara, ko te mana motuhake c tonoa nei, ko te Kaunihera c tonoa nei c te Pire a Henare Kaihau, ko te Pire ranei a te Kawanatanga c takoto nei, engari ki tau whakaaro, kua ki nei nei ano hoki koe, ma te whakahaere pera anake me te tikanga enoho nei i roto i te Pire a te Kawanatanga c taea ai te whakahaere pai o nga toenga o nga whenua Maori, a c taea ai te whakatutuki o te hiahia o te iwi nui tonu kia whakamutua rawatia te hoko whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 808. Hon. Timi Kara : Mehemea kite kore nga iwi Maori o tenei Motu c pai ki tenei Pire, ka whakaae ranei koe mo tou takiwa. Paratene Ngata : Ac. Koi na rate take i roa ai au ki konei tatari ai kia tuwhera he taima moku kite tautoko ite Pire nei, a c taea ai can te tono atu pena me te patai i via mai nei ki au — ara, kite kore nga iwi Maori o etahi wahi ote Motu c pai kia paahitia te Pire nei hei ture mo o ratou nei takiwa, ka mau tonu taku tono kia paahitia mo toku takiwa —ara, ma te Pire nei c whakahaere, nga whenua o toku takiwa, hei whakatautau i nga whenua o reira me o te Tai Hauauru hoki, notemea kei te hiahia nga iwi o reira kia whakahaerea tenei Pire ki reira. 809. Hon. Timi Kara: E whakaae ana koe kia whakamatauria tuatahitia tenei Pire ki tou takiwa hei tauira ki etahi iwi, i mua o te whakahaerenga atu ki runga ki hga iwi kaore c whakaae ana ki tenei Pire ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 810. Hon. Timi Kara : Mo te taha ki tou takiwa, kei te mahara ake ranei koe ki tetahi tikanga pai atu i tenei hei whakahaere mo. tou takiwa ? He tangata matau hoki koe a kua ata hurihuria c koe tenei mea, a kua waia koe ki nga whakahaerenga o nga ture i paahitia c te Paremete mo runga i nga tuku whenua Maori, a c patairia atu ana tenei ki a koe i runga i te mahara kei te whakaae koe ki te whaki mai i o whakaaro kite Komiti mo runga i tenei mea ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore. Kua tino pau oku matauranga i te hurihuringa ite rapunga me te kimihanga i tenei mea mai ano otewa i tae tuatahi mai ai te Pakeha ki tenei Motu. Kaore i kitea c au tetahi atu tikanga i pai atu i tenei c mau nei i roto ite Pire. Engari, me penei he kupu maku :ki taku whakaaro me whai haere te Maori i runga i nga tapuwae o te Pakeha, engari me ata hikoi te haere, kia mau ai i a ratou o te Pakeha tikanga me ona matauranga. 811. Hon. Timi Kara :Xi to whakaaro kua tae ranei tenei kite wa c upane ai te haere ote Maori me te Pakeha mo te taha ki o ratou whenua. Paratene Ngata : Kaore ano.

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812. Hon. Timi Kara: Xi tau kaore ano te Maori i eke noa ki to te Pakeha ahua ? Paratene Ngata : Xi taku mahara kaore ano. Engari me penei taku kupu :ki taku whakaaro tena ano etahi Maori kua rite kite Pakeha te mohio; engari tena ano etahi kaore ano i tae ki taua ahua, na reira ka tika te ki kaore ano i taea te wa c pena ai te tv o te Maori. 813. Hon. Timi Kara : Engari c tumanako ano koe tera c neke haere atu te matauranga, na wai a kua tutuki kite ahua c whaianei ? Paratene Ngata .' Ac; koia tena taku c tumanako ana. 814. Te Tiamana : Engari pea me whakarere nga matauranga kino o te Pakeha ? Paretene Ngata: Ac ;ko nga matauranga pai anake kaua nga matauranga kino, me patu rawa atu ena, ko ena hoki kei te patu i te iwi Maori. 815. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaati, i te wa c ako ana te Maori i aua matauranga, ki tau whakaaro he tino tika kia hanga he tikanga c taea ai nga whenua te mahi kia puta ai he ora. Paratene Ngata: Ac ; me hanga he ture hei here i te toenga o nga whenua Maori a hei whakahaere hoki i runga i tetahi tikanga c puta ai he ora a taea noatia te wa c tae ai te Maori kite mutunga mai o te matauranga Pakeha. 816. Hon. Timi Kara : A, kia tae ra ano pea kite pakehatanga o te iwi Maori katahi pea koe ka whakaae kia pera ano tana pupuri i ona whenua me ta te Pat ha pupuri ? Paratene Ngata : Ac; c whakaae ana au kia pena te ahua. 817. Hon. Timi Kara : He patai atu tenei ki a koe, mo etahi o au korero o manahi. I ki koe kua iti haere te kai waipiro a te Maori ? Paretene Ngata: Ac ; kua iti haere te haurangi i roto ite Maori ; i etahi taima nui ai ano te kia waipiro, engari kua takiwa haere. 818. Hon. Timi Kara : Engari kua kore haere, kua pai akei to mua ahua ? Paratene Ngata : Xi taku whakaaro te take i iti haere ai te kai waipiro kua pau te nuinga o o ratou whenua, kua kore he moni hei whakapau kite waipiro. 819. Hon. Timi Kara : Koi na anake ranei te take ? Paratene Ngata : Xi taku whakaaro kua timata ratou te mohio he mahi he tera, kaore c tika kia waiho tonu hei mahi Kua oti ano i nga Maori o etahi takiwa te hanga he tikanga mo o ratou kainga kia kaua c uru atu te haurangi ki roto, a hamenetia ai nga tangata takahi i taua tikanga. 820. Hon. Timi Kara : He korero nui rawa ena, tino whai tikanga, notemea ma tena ahua ka kitea kei te ngana te iwi Maori puta noa i te koroni kite whakaiti haere i ta ratou kai waipiro. Paratene Ngate: Ac. 821. Hon. Timi Kara : Kua tv ia nei nga komiti ki etahi kainga, he mea whakamana c ratou ano, kia ahei ai ratou kite whaina i nga tangata haurangi ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; a kite kore te tangata c whainatia ana c te komiti c utu i te whaina ka hamenetia ia kite aroaro ote Kooti ote Kai-whakawa Tuturu mana c whakatau te whiana. He maha nga keehi pera kataea c au te whakaatu i mahia ki toku takiwa, kei toku takiwa hoki taua tikanga c whakahaerea ana. 822. Hon. Timi Kara: Ka nui pea nga painga c puta ana i runga ite mahi a nga komiti Maori ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 823. Hon. Timi Kara : Kua penei ia nei te tikanga: ka tv nga hui ki nga takiwa o te Motu, tino kaha ai nga rangatira kite arai i te kai waipiro kai tae ki reira ? Paratene Ngata : Ac; kaore c whakaaetia te waipiro kia tae ki reira. Ahakoa he Pakeha, kite haere huarangi atu ia ki reira, kaore ia c whakaaetia kia tae kite kainga ituai te hui. He maha nga Pakeha hauaraugi kua kite au c pana atu ana ki waho ote kainga. Ite hui ki Papawai i peratia etahi Pakeha. 824. Hon. Timi Kara : I taua hui nui ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. No te taenga rawa atu ote Kawana raua ko te Pirimia katahi rawa ano ka kitea te waipiro ki taua hui. Hei whakarite i te ahua o te tina i taua wa anake ka mutu, hei manaaki mo te manuhiri. 825. Hon. Timi Kara : He tangata koe kua whakatupu pai kua whakaako pai i o tamariki ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 826. Hon. Timi Kara: Na au ake moni i whakatupu i whakaako ehara i nga moni c puta ana i o whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Kaore kau he moni c puta ana i oku whenua i taua wa. Kaore i hokona c au, naku ano i inahi nga whenua kite kai me era atu mahi. 827. Hon. Timi Kara : Mehemea i wehewehea o whenua ki a koe, ka ai ranei tena hei tautoko i a koe kite tuku i o tamariki kite kura ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore. 828. Hon. Timi Kara : Na tou kaha tonu me tino ako o tamariki kite kura i taea ai ratou c koe te pera ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 829. Hon. Timi Kara: Mehemea, ite mutunga ote noho oau tamariki ite kura, no te hokinga mai kite kainga, kua oti o paanga whenua te wehewehe ki a koe—i ki ra koe 10 eka iia poraka iia poraka —ka tika ranei koe kite whakanohonoho i o tamariki ki runga i ena whenua, ki reira mahi paamu ai mahi oranga ai mo ratou? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ; notemea kei te tatahi noa atu te takoto wehewehe o nga whenua. Mehemea i huia aku paanga katoa kite wahi kotahi, kia kotahi te poraka, katahi ka taea te hoatu he paamu ma ratou. 830. Hon. Timi Kara : Ehara ia nei i te mea ko te mate nui c pa ana i runga i te whakaakoranga kite kura o nga tamariki : ara, ka mutu te kura o nga tamariki, ka whiwhi ratou i te matauranga, ka hoki ki o ratou matua, kaore kau he huarahi c tuwhera ana ki a ratou hei nukunga atu mo ratou- kaore kau he whenua hei whakanohonohoanga i a ratou! Paratene Ngata; Ac.

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831. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaore kau he huarahi mahi hei tirohanga atu ma ratou, c ai ai he tuara mo ratou hei wawao i a ratou i riga uauatanga o te ao, c puta ake ai te ihu kite ora ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore kau. 832. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaore ranei koe c pai kia hanga he tikanga hei rahui i etahi o nga whenua c toe nei ki nga Maori hei oranga mo nga tamariki Maori c tupu nei ? Paratene Ngata : Ac; koia tena to matou hiahia. I raro ite Pire nei, c tumanako ana matou, tera c raliuitia nga whenua c tika ana hei oranga mo matou ko a matou tamariki, a me herehere rawa aua whenua kia kore rawa ai c taea te hoko te tuku ranei, a ko nga toenga o te whenua c watea ana, ara, kaore c wehea ana i taua wa hei nohoanga hei mahinga ranei ma matou ko a matou tamariki i muri i a matou, me riihi atu, engari kaua c riihitia i runga i tetahi tikanga c riro tonu atu ai, a kia taka te wa c pau ai nga tau o aua riihi, kite kitea i reira c tika ana aua whenua kia nohoia c a matou tamariki hei kainga hei mahinga ma ratou me pera. Xi te kitea a tona wa c haere ake nei kua kore c rahi nga whenua i wehea hei nohoanga hei mahinga ma tetahi iwi, kaati, hei te wa c mutu ai aua riihi, me hoatu o ratou whenua i riihitia ra hei whakarahi ake i nga kainga me nga mahinga a taua iwi. 833. Hon. Timi Kara : A, ki tau, me rahui ano hoki pea etahi wahi o nga whenua hei ako i nga tamariki kite kura ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 834 Hon. Timi Kara i A hei whakatu kura ako mahi-a-ringa kia tino tutuki ai te matauranga o nga tamariki ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 835. Hon. Timi Kara : A ki nga wahi c papai ana c rite ana nga whenua me ako ratou ki nga matauranga mahi paamu me era atu mahi pera ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 836. Hon. Timi Kara : Me pehea ena mea katoa c taea ai te whakatutuki, ma te wehewehe i nga whenua ki ia tangata ma tetahi tikanga ranei c aro nui tonu ana kite iwi, c riro ana ma te komiti c whakahaere, ma ratou c ata wehe tetahi taha o te whenua kia taea ai enei mahi. Paratene Ngata: Ko te mea tika me riro ma te Komiti c whakahaere. 837. Hon. Timi Kara : A ma ia iwi c wehe etahi wahi hei oranga mo nga kura ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 838. Hon. Timi Kara : Xi taku mohio atu ki o korero, c penei ana tau, kaore kau ou wehi ka pa he mate i runga i enei tikanga ma whakahaerea ki tou takiwa, engari ka puta he ora ? Paratene Ngata : Re pai anake te mea c puta i tena tikanga. Xi taku mohio ka tino koa toku iwi kite paahitia tenei Pire. 839. Henare Kaihau : A c pehea ana koe kite Pire c takoto nei, kaore nei hoki nga menemana whakatikatika a te hui ki Papawai i uru ? 840. Hon. Timi Kara : Xi taku mohio, i penei pea to korero mai ki au, ahakoa whakatikatikaina c te Komiti te Pire nei, a ma mutu te pera, kite mau tonu nga tikanga c noho nei i roto i te Pire, c kore koe c wehi ki tenei Pire kite whakahaerea ia ki tou takiwa, i te mea ko te pai anake te mea c puta i a ia ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au c manawapa kei pa he mate, heoi c pera ai ma te he o te whakanoho noho o nga kupu o roto i te Pire nei, c taea ai c te tangata te whakawiri ke i te tikanga o aua kupu kia takoto ke ai ite tino aronga ote Pire. Xi te taea te pera, katahi pea ka pa he mate. He maha nga Ture c kite ana au c paahitia ana hei whakaora i tetahi mate, a ki ta te titiro iho ki nga korero o aua Ture mehemea nei kua tino taea te mea c whaia ra, akuanei, kei te whakahaerenga o aua Ture, ka kitea nga hapanga o etahi wahi. Xi taku mohio ko nga Ture katoa c paahitia ana c tenei Whare c paahitia ana i runga i te whakaaro totika kia taea atu ai te mea c whaia ana c taua Ture, engari kia whakahaerea nga Ture katahi ka ngana etahi tangata kite whakarereke ite aronga o aua Ture. Ko nga roia tetahi iwi kaha atu kite whakaparori ke i te aronga o nga Ture, a i runga i tera tv ahua ka riro ma te Whare c whakatikatika haere aua he. 841. Ron. Timi Kara : Hei whakarapopototanga mo a taua korero, me patai atu au i enei patai. E kotahi ana ranei te whakaaro o koutou ko tou taha me te nuinga o te iwi Maori, ara, ko te mea tika me tino rahui nga whenua c toe nei ki nga Maori i Niu Tireni kia mau tonu ai hei whenua mo ratou ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 842. Hon. Timi Kara: Ko te mahi tuatahi ma aua whenua he whakarato i te iwi Maori kite whenua hei kainga hei oranga mo ratou a hei whakaakoranga i a ratou tamariki kite kura. Paratene Ngata : Ac. 843. Hon. Timi Kara : Ko nga whenua i takoto noa iho, ara, kaore i whakaratoa ki nga mahi kua korerotia ake nei me riihi atu era ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 844. Hon. Timi Kara : A me riro ma tetahi ropu c whakahaere, me ata whakatu taua ropu a me karanga tona ingoa he komiti ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 845. Hon. Timi Kara : Xi raro i te mana ote Poari taua komiti ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 846. Hon. Timi Kara : Ko nga whenua papai, nunui, engari he tokoiti nga tangata o roto, me wehewehe ena ki ia tangata nona ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 847. Hon. Timi Kara : A me tuku atu ki ia tangata te whakaaro mo tona whenua? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Engari me ki atu au kaore ena tv whenua i toku takiwa. 848. Hon. Timi Kara : Kei etahi atu takiwa pea nga whenua pena ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 849. Wi Pere : Ite mea kua tata tenei tuunga o te Paremete te mutu, ka patai atu au ki a koe, ko c hea wahi o tenei Pire tau c hiahia ana kia paahitia? 11—I. 3a.

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Paratene Nyata : Mehemea, i te poto rawa o te taima, c kore c taea te tuku atu o tenei Pire c te Komiti nei kite Whare kia paahitia hei ture i tenei tuunga o te Paremete, kaati, ka tono ano au i taku tono o nanahi—ara, me hanga c tenei Komiti tetahi Pire poto, hei tuku atu kite Whare, kia paahitia atu i tenei tuunga o te Paremete, hei hanga rahui pena te ahua me nga rahui kua korerotia ake nei, a hei whakahau i te Kawanatanga kia terete whakaotioti i te hoko o nga whenua kua hawhe nei te hoko c te Kawanatanga, kia tere ai te mohio o nga Maori c hia nga eka whenua kei te toe ki a ratou ; a ko nga whenua kua oti te mokete kua tau ranei etahi atu tv raruraru ki runga me hanga he tikanga mo era kia kore ai aua whenua c pahuhu rawa atu i nga ringaringa o te Maori, kia rokohanga ai c etahi atu tikanga tera c hanga hei ture. Tetahi whakaaro oku, me whakauru he tekiona ki roto kite Pire kia whai mana ai te whakatu i tetahi Poari, ko nga mahi ma taua Poari he tv hei hoa mo te Kooti Whenua Maori kite whakatautau haere i nga whenua Maori —ara, mo runga i nga mahi wawahi i nga whenua kua hawhe te pau i nga hoko a te Karauna me era atu tangata. 850. Wi Pere: Kaati, c penei ana tau, i te mea kua poto te taima, te mea pai me paahi he Pire pena te ahua me tau kuakororo mama,i na, a ko te Pire nui me nuku mo tera tuunga o te Paremete ? Paratene Ngata: Ac; c pena ana taku hiahia —ara, mehemea kua tata tonu te mutu o tenei tuunga o te Paremete, a c kore c whai taima kite paahi i te Pire c takoto nei, kaati, me paahi he Pire poto pena me taku i korero ake nei. Heoi taku c tono nei ko te Poari kia whakamanaia hei hoa mo te Kooti Whenua Maori kite mahi i nga whakawa wawahi whenua, ko era atu mana mo te Poari me waiho ena, kia paahitia te Ture a tera tuunga o te Paremete, hei reira hoatu ai whakauru ai aua mana. 851. Wi Pere : Kaore ranei c pai me paahi he Ture poto i tenei tuunga ote Paremete hei whakatu Poari mo ia takawa ? Paratene Ngata : Ac; he mea pai rawa tena, a kia paahitia tetahi o nga Ture hei reira whakatu ai nga komiti, ma tera c mama ai nga mahi,i te mea ka tv ratou hei hoa mo te Poari me te Kooti kite whakatautau haere i nga whenua. Ko te mea pai rawa ano ko te Pire nei kia paahitia i tenei tuunga o te Paremete ; engari mehemea kei te poto rawa te taima na reira c kore c taea tena, kaati me pera he tikanga mo naianei me taku i korero ake nei. 852. Wi Pere : E ki ana koe ko to hiahia me rahui nga whenua Maori : c mea ana ranei koe me rohe mai nga tau c mana ai te rahui ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore. Ko taku rahui c hiahia ana me rahui mo ake tonu atu —ara, me tino rahui herehere rawa a me mau tonu mo nga tau katoa, a taea noatia te wa c ngaro ai te iwi Maori. 853. Wi Pere: E mohio ana ha koe ki nga korero o roto ite Pire ate Pirimia: me pehea ki tau te tuku atu a te tangata a te hapu ranei i a ratou whenua ki raro i te Poari. Paratene Ngata : Me karanga nga tangata katoa o te poraka kia huihui, a ma ratou c whakatu he komiti ka tuku atu ai ite whenua kite Poari. I hanga he huarahi mo tena etc hui ki Papawai a kei roto i a ratou menemana whakatikatika c noho ana. 854. Wi Pere: E whakahe ana koe ki tenei, me whai mana te Poari kite muru atu i nga whenua mana c whakahaere, ahakoa hiahia, kore ranei c hiahia, nga tangata nona kia riro ma te Poari c whakahaere ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Xi te hoatu he mana pena me tau c korero na kite Poari, a ahakoa he ture pai rawa atu te ture i whakaurua ai taua tikanga, ka waiho taua, tikanga hei take c tino kaha rawa, atu ai te whakahe a nga Maori ki taua ture. 855. Wi Pere: Kua utua ano c koe te patai ka via atu nei eau i naianei, he ahakoa ka patairia atu ano eau ki a koe taua patai: mehemea ka paahitia tenei Pire tae atu ki nga menemana c hiahiatia nei c koe, c mea ana koe me whakahaere te Pire ki tetahi takiwa anake ki katoa ranei o te Tai Rawhiti ? Paratene Ngata : Ko toku hiahia mo te Motu katoa; engari kite kore etahi iwi c whakaae kia whakahaerea ki o ratou takiwa, kaati, me tau ki toku takiwa me nga takiwa hoki o te Tai Hauauru c hiahia ana kite Pire. Ma matou c whakamatau, ama nga iwi o waho atu i a matou c matakitaki mai, c whakaaro, kei te pai kei te mate ranei to matou takiw r a i taua Pire. Ma tera c mohio ai, c tatu ai o ratou whakaaro, me whakaae ranei kia whakahaerea ki to ratou takiwa kaua ranei. Engari, ahakoa whakahe nga iwi o te Motu nei i te Pire, ka tono tonu au kia whakaaetia te Pire nei mo toku takiwa. He iwi nui matou kei reira, he nui hoki o matou whenua, ara, c nui ana hei whakamatauranga i te Pire, c kitea ai ona pai ona kino. 856. Wi Pere: Ko te potonga oto korero c penei ana, ko to hiahia me whakatu te Poari, me whakatu nga komiti, me whakatu nga komiti poraka, a me whakamana ratou hei whakahaere i nga whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Kua oti katoa tena te whakatakoto ki roto i nga menemana. 857. Wi Pere : Engari kaore koe c pai me whai mana te Poari kite tango noa ake i nga whenua mana c whakahaere i runga i tana i pai ai, c kaua rawa ai he kupu ma te iwi Maori nona nga whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; kaore au c pai ki tena. 858. Wi Pere : A, kaati, c penei ana tau kaua te Poari c takahi i nga hiahia o te komiti, ma te komiti c tohutohu nga whenua c wehe hei rahui, nga whenua hei hoko, hei riihi, a me nga whenua hei paamu me era atu mahi ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 859. Wi Pere: Ko to hiahia me haere nga mahi a te Poari i runga i nga hiahia o te komiti poraka ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Xi te peratia kaore c raruraru, ka pai tonu te haere o nga mahi. 860. Wi Pere : A heoi ta te komiti poraka c tohutohu ai kite Poari ko ta nga tangata nona te poraka i whakaae ai ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Xi tekore te Poari c whakarongo ki nga tohutohu ate komiti, aki te tohi tonu kite mahi i tana i kite ai, kaore c korete tupu ake he raruraru. 861. Wi Pere : Xi te whakamanaia te Pire kia whakahaerea ki tetahi takiwa anake o te Tai Rawhiti, ki reira whakamatauria ai i te tuatahi, me pehea ? Paratene Ngata : Pai noa atu au kia penatia te whakamatau, ahakoa whakamanaia te Pire mo toku akiwa anake.

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Paeaiee, 21 o Oketopa, 1898. Paeatene Ngata : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 862. Henare Kaihau : Kua korerotia c koe au whakaaro mo nga tikanga nunui o roto i te Pire a te Pirimia c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Komiti ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. 863. Henare Kaihau : Xi to whakaaro ka rite i taua Pire nga hiahia o nga iwi Maori katoa o Niu Tireni, c hiahia nei kia hanga he tikanga hou mo ratou me o ratou whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Ka rite tetahi wahi o to ratou hiahia ; ara, ka rite i te rahuitanga c te Pire i te toenga o nga whenua Maori. Ko tetahi wahi tera ote Pire c rite atu ana kite hiahia ote iwi Maori. Tena ano etahi hiahia o etahi wehewehenga ote iwi Maori, ara, o nga iwi c tono nei ite Mana Motuhake, i te Kaunihera Maori, me etahi atu mea kaore c whakaaetia ana c te Pire. 864. Henare Kaihau: Ko te hea wahi o te Pire nei te wahi kaore c rite ana kite hiahia o te iwi Maori ? Paratene Ngata: He maha nga wahi, he Pire hou hoki tenei katahi ano ka whakaurua mo te iwi Maori me ana mea katoa. Kei te pai etahi wahi ote Pire c takoto nei, aki te whakahaerea ka kitea etahi atu wahi pai ona a ka kitea hoki ona wahi kino. 865. Henare Kaihau: I penei pea ia nei taku mohio atu ki to korero, ko te wahi ote Pire c rite ana ki nga hiahia o te iwi Maori, ko te wahi c ki ana me tino whakamutu rawa atu te hoko whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Tetahi hiahia o nga Maori ko tetahi huarahi kia whakatuwheratia kia ahei ai ratou kite riihi i o ratou whenua, a kua whakaritea tera hiahia cte Pire nei. 866. Henare Kaihau : E penei ana koia te tikanga o to korero na, mehemea ka tangohia ki waho te wahi arai i nga hoko, penei kaore c rite ana ki nga hiahia o te iwi Maori ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, kua ki ake ra au ko te tuatahi tonu tenei o nga Pire penei i meatia mo nga Maori. Mehemea pea ka paahitia kei reira pea ka kitea kei te rite ano ia ki nga hiahia o nga iwi Maori. 867. Henare Kaihau : I patairia ai cau tena patai kia hangai ai to utu mai kite Komiti, ara, heoi nga wahi o te Pire c rite ana ki nga hiahia o te iwi Maori ko nga wahi c kati ana i te hoko me te huarahi hei whakahaere riihi whenua Maori, a ki taku whakarongo atu, c whakaae ana mai to utu ki tena patai. Kei te mohio hoki koe ko te hiahia nui o nga Maori ote Motu nei puta noa puta noa : tuatahi, he kati ite hoko, tuarua, he whakahaere i tetahi ritenga hei riihi i o ratou whenua. Kaati kua ki ano koe c hiahia ana ano hoki nga Maori kia utua a ratou ruri. me etahi atu nama kia tae ai ki ta ratou c tono nei ; c tika ranei tena ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, c tika ana. Kaore pea koe kia rongo i aku korero ite aroaro ote Komiti ite ra tuatahi, tuarua hoki. I korerotia katoatia eau ena mea katoa tae atu ki nga menemana i whakaaetia c te hui ki Papawai. 868. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au ite hoki ki o korero o mua. Engari toku hiahia ko aku c patai atu nei i naianei kia utua c koe ? Paratene Ngata : Heoi, i patai mai hoki koe pehea te hiahia nui o te iwi Maori mo runga i tenei Pire, a kua whakaaturia c au kia Jjoe. 869. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana, i runga i te mea ko te utu mo taua patai kihai i marama, ka pataria ano koe eau ki tetahi patai ano. I rongo atu ia nei au i a koe eki ana, i tae ano koe kite hui ki Papawai: he tika ranei i tae ano koe ki reira ? Paratene Nyata : Ac. 870. Henare Kaihau: Taku mahara, i penei koe i nanahi, i reira ano etahi o Waikato, me etahi o nga tangata o te Tai Hauauru ? Paratene Nyata : Kaore au i pena. I penei ke au. Ko etahi o nga tangata i tae ki taua hui i wehe i a ratou kia motuhake ki waho, a uru ana ki tetahi ropu c tono ana kia hoatu ki a ratou he mana Kaunihera Maori. 871. Henare Kaiahau : A i aha etahi o nga tangata ? Paratene Nyata : Ko tetahi wahanga i tono i te Mana Motuhake, a ko te tuatoru o nga wahanga i tautoko i te Pire i tapiria mai nei nga menemana. 872. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, c penei ana koe, i pakaru te iwi c toru wahanga pu korero—kotahi wahanga c tono ana mo te Mana Motuhake, tetahi mo te Kaunihera Maori, ko te tuatoru c hapai ana ite Pire. E tika ana ranei tena ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 873. Henare Kaihau : Ite hea o enei whakahaerenga matauranga c toru koe? Ite taha Mana Motuhake ranei, i te Kaunihera Maori ranei, i te taha hapai ranei i te Pire ? Paratene Ngata : Ite taha hapai ite Pire au. I haere ano au i runga i taku i whakaaro ai, me ta toku iwi i ki ai. 874. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana koe c whakahaere ana koe mo to iwi, a i te hapai koe i te Pire : ehara ia nei i te mea ko to ratou hiahia he tautoko i te Mana Motuhake ranei i te Kaunihera Maori ranei ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore. I hapai au i te Pire i runga i tenei take na :ko toku iwi he iwi i piri pono tonu kite Kuini, a i naianei c pera tonu ana ano, kaore matou c uru ki nga whakahaere c haere ana i waho o nga ture ate Kuini. Ko tuku iwi hoki he iwi hapai tonu ite Kuini, he hoia hoki nana, me au hoki. 875. Henare Kaihau: E tino ki pono ana koe i tonoa mai koe eto iwi ki konei hapai ai i tenei whakahaere, a kia kaua rawa koe c tautoko i te Kotahitanga, i tetahi ranei o nga whakahaere i korerotia nei c koe ? Paratene Nyata : Ac. Ko te ritenga tena ko taku iki ake nei. Kaore tahi ano au kia uru hei mema mo te Kotahitanga, kaore ano hoki i uru noa ki ona hui i mua mai a taea noatia tenei wa. 876. Henare Kaihau : Kei te pena touu ranei ou whakaaro i tenei wa ? Paratene Nyata : Ac ; kei te pena tonu. 877. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana; ka patai au i tenei patai ki a koe: Mehemea c tika ana tau c mea mama,i na, a c tika ana hoki to whakapuaki i nga hiahia o te hunga nana koe i tono mai ki

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konei, niehemea ka kore c whakaetia c te Pirimia nga menemana a te hui i whakaurua nei kite Pire, c rereke rawa nei i te Pire, c kore ia nei koe c whakahe kite Pire ? Paratene Ngata: Kua oti te utu eau te patai ate kai-patai. 878. Henare Kahau: Ko to utu me "Ac " me " Kaore " ranei, taku hiahia tena ? Peratene Ngata : Kai au ano te ritenga mo taku utu atu, a koia tenei taku utu : Meheinea ka kore te Pirimia c wakakaae ki nga menemana, heoi ka tukuna ma te Whare c mahi tenei mea. Tera c pahitia c te Whare te Pire i runga ano i tana i whakaaro ai hei painga mo te iwi Maori. 879. Senare Kaihau : E tika ana ano ra tena, engari kua whakarerea c koe te Pire a te Pirimia, a kua oma koe ki muri i te Whare hei whakapuru mou ? Paratene Ngata: Heoi hoki pea ta te Pirimia he whakatakoto ite Pire; ma te Whare ano ia c paahi. 880. Henare Kaihau : Kua ki koe ko to haere mai i haere mai i runga i ta to iwi i tono mai ai, ara, ko te whakatikatika i te Pire, a ko te take ano hoki tena nana koe i kawe ki Papawai —a kaore koe i haere mai kite tono kia whakaturia he Kaunihera, kite awhina ranei i te Kotahitanga, ki te tautoko ranei i etahi atu o nga tikanga kua korerotia ake nei c koe, engari ko to tv c tv nei mo te tikanga kotahi anake. Kaati koia nei te tikanga ki toku whakaaro, kite kore c whakatikaia te Pire ki ta te iwi i hiahia ai, ki ta te hunga nana nei koe i tono mai ki konei hei whakapuaki i o ratou hiahia, heoi c kore ra c kore tou whakahe kite Pire a te Pirimia ? Paratene Ngata : Kua utua noatia atu c au i mua ra, heoi me utu ano pea. 881. Henare Kaihau : Heoi taku kia ki mai koe " Ac," " Kaore " ranei ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au i mea mau c utu. Maku ano c utu. Kaore hoki c tika mau ano c utu tau patai, engari maku ke. 882. Senare Kaihau : Kaore pea koe c pai ana kite patai nei—e kikini ana pea ia koe. Kua tae mai ia koe tou ake wbakaaro, ara, kei te hapai koe i te Pire a te Pirimia, engari ehara tena i ta to iwi i taku mai ai i a koe ki konei ? Paratene Ngata : Me utu atu au i tena i mua atu i to haerenga ki tetahi atu patai. Kua oti noa atu c au te whakamarama kite Komiti nga whakaaro o toku iwi, a kua korero ano hoki au mo runga i nga menemana kua whakatakotoria ki mua i te Pirimia mo te whakauru kite Pire, a c ki ana au kei te Whare i tenei wa te whakaaro me aua menemana, a kei te Whare ano hoki te paahi te pehea ranei i nga mea c puta ai he painga a mo te iwi Maori. Toku whakaaro tenei, mehemea kite kore au c kaha te tohe kite whakahe i tenei Pire, kore rawa c kitea ana c au tetahi huarahi c riro ai i toku iwi te oranga c kimihia nei c ratou. Kaore tahi ano hoki au ite kite i tetahi atu tikanga i ko atu c rite ai to ratou hiahia ko te Paremete anake. 883. Senare Kaihau: E pai ana ; kaati me patai penei koe eau : Mehemea ka whakaarua mai c tetahi atu tangata tetahi atu Pire, c penei ana tona ritenga, me kaua nga whenua Maori c taka ki raro i te mana o te Poari, c kore ra pea c kore tau whakaae ki taua Pire me ka paahitia c te Whare ? Paratene Ngata : Tena koa whakaarahia mai ano koia to patai. Kaore hoki koe ite whakamarama i tau c mea mama. Eki ana koe me kauaka c riro ite Poari te whakahaere. Xi te pena te ritenga, me riro i a wai ? Ko taku tena c hiahia nei kia mohio au. 884. Senare Kaihau : Mehemea ia na ka kawea mai c te Apatihana tetahi tikanga penei me taku c whakaatu nei, a paahitia ana c te Whare, tera ranei koe o tautoko i taua mea ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ano au i marama ki tau c mea mama. Me whakamarama mai ano koia c koe. Me whakaatu mai ano me riro i a wai te ritenga o nga whenua Maori i raro i tena whakahaere. Eki ana koe me kauaka c riro i te Poari. Tena me riro i a wai? Ko taku tena c mea nei kia mohio au. 855. Senare Kaihau : Me riro i tetahi Eunanga i tetahi ropu tangata ranei pena me te Poari ? Pβ? atene Ngata : Ana koia, katahi au ka marama atu. Kaore au c mohio pehea toku whakaaro ki tena tv tikanga, kia kite ra ano au katahi au ka mohio. E kore au c here noa iho iauki te whakapuaki whakaaro moku i te tuatahi kia mohio ra ano au kite ahua o te Pire c tonoa nei au kia whakaatu i toku whakaaro. 886. Henare Kaihau : I ki koe ko te mea i takoto kite Whare, i paahi hoki i te Whare, ko tena tau c tautoko ai ? Paratene Ngata: Ac, mo te taha tena kite Pire ; mo te rapopotonga c takoto nei i o tatou aroaro, ko tenei Pire he mea i inoia c nga iwi Maori i te Kuini, a ata homai ana c ia ki nga ringaringa o ana Minita —kite Kawanatanga ano hoki o Niu Tireni kia- kimihia tetahi ritenga, a ko tona tukunga iho ko te Pire c takoto nei o tatou aroaro, me te Whare, me te iwi katoa o Niu Tireni. Ko te wbakahaere tena i ki ra au ko ta te Whare c paahi ai mo tatou mo te iwi Maori i kitea ai hoki c ia c tika ana me whai mana. Kaore enei kupu aku epa atu ana ki etahi atu Pire ta te mea kaore ano au kia kite noa i tetahi atu Pire. 887. Te Tiamana : Taku rnahara kihai i te marama tehoatutanga ite patai kite kai-korero. I penei hoki taku whakarongo atu c, kei te whakaae ia ki tenei Pire, a ko tona hiahia me uru nga menemana o Papawai ki roto, a kite kahore c kitea c te Kawanatanga tetahi huarahi hei urunga mo tena, heoi, ko tona hiahia ma te Whare c whakatikatika i runga i nga tikanga ate hui ki Papawai. Ehara ia nei ite mea koi naka tau c mea nei ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. A mehemea i muri o te whakamahinga, kitea ana kaore kia pai, kaati, me whakatikatika ano kia rite kite mea i hiahiatia ai. 888. Senare Kaihau : Ma wai c whakatikatika? Paratene Ngata : Ma te Paramete, ko te tikanga ano hoki tena o nga Ture katoa c pahitia ana c te Paremete, c whakatikatikaia ana c ia i ia wa i ia wa. 889. Senare Kaihau : Mehemea ka kore c whakaae te Whare, ka pehea ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore hoki ra c mohiotia te peheatanga, kia tae ra ano ki taua wa katahi ano ka mohiotia ? 890. Henare Kaihau : Ka whakaae mai pea koe ki tenei na, mehemea ka kore te Whare c whakaae kite whakatikatika i te Pire i muri o te paahitanga, a ka kitea ano hoki kihai rawa i te pai,

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heoi, ka tau ra he mate kite iwi Maori ite mea ko nga hiahia i whakapuakina ai c ratou kihai i whakamanaia ? Paratene Ngata : Ac tera pea c puta mai he kino. Kua pena na hoki au, ara, tera pea c puta mai he kino. Akitepa he mate tera te Whare c tae kite whakaora kite whakatikatika ano hoki ite Pire kia pai ai. 891. Henare Kaihau : Koi na te paina c whaia nei c au, kia whakaae mai ai ano koe, ac, tera ano c puta he mate ? Paratene Ngata : E ki ana au ko te Kawanatanga te kai-tiaki o te iwi Pakeha tae atu hoki kite iwi Maori, i tenei whenua. Ano kona c kore te Kawanatanga c tuku i nga iwi Maori kia tukinotia. 892. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i patai ki a koe mo te Kawanatanga ? Paratene Ngata : Eta, kaua koe c hianga me patai kau koe, a kaati to mahi whakararuraru noa i a au. 893. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana, kua marama au ki to whakaaro. Kaati, ko tenei, katahi ano i naianei ka puta mai i a koe tetahi utu tino hangai, marama hoki, penei na, ara, mehemea ka kore c pai te Pire, a ka kore hoki c whakatikatikaina ki to te iwi Maori hiahia, a ka kore hoki te Paremete c whakaae kite whakaora, heoi ka tau he mate ki runga ki to iwi ? Paratene Ngata: Taku utu tenei, tukuna kia whakahaerea tenei Pire ki toku takiwa anake, a waiho atu te takiwa o taku hoa, c patai nei, ki waho ote Pire, tera pea c rite tena kite hiahia ote kai-patai. Ko taku kupu ano tena ikiai ki nga kai-turaki i te Pire, ara me kape o ratou takiwa ki waho. 894. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i te tono kia kauhau mai koe ? Paratene Ngata : Ko toku hiahia hoki ra ko koe kia ata marama mai. 895. Henare Kaihau: Tena, eki ana koe kei a koe te mana whakaae i tetahi tikanga kaore nei i te rite ki nga hiahia, i ki ake ra koe, i tukuna mai koe c to iwi ki konei ? Paratene Ngata : Kaati ra, me ata noho mai ra koe, kia pai ai hoki taku utu ite patai. Kua hoatu c au ki tenei Komiti nga whakaaro o toku iwi, kua whakaatu ano au i ta ratou c hiahia ana, a ko taku ki ano tenei kite kore nga menemana i kawea mai nei c matou c whakaurua ki roto ite Pire, kaati waiho ma te Whare c paahi tetahi tikanga i tana i kite ai, ka oti ka whakahaere ai ki toku takiwa. Kua whakamanaia au c toku iwi kia mea atu i enei mea katoa; no te mea c ki ana matou kaore he huarahi ke atu c mohiotia ana c matou c puta mai ai he tika mo matou iko atu i tenei. Ko toku takiwa kei te takoto noa iho kaore he huarahi rahui kei reira, a tetahi atu tikanga ranei c whakahaerea ana ki reira. He maha nga whenua papatupu kei reira, whenua kaore ano kia whakawakia nga take, whenua hoki c puritia ana i raro ite Karauna karaati. A mehemea ka kore c paahitia tetahi tikanga pai, c kore c oti tetahi mea te mahi ki aua whenua, he kore kaore c taea te mahi. Ko te take tena i kaha rawa ai au kite hapai i nga whakaaro o toku iwi, a l tautoko ai hoki ite Pire. Mehemea c hiahia ana te kai-patai kia rereke he tikanga mona, me kape c ia tona takiwa ki waho i te mana o te Pire. Xi toku mahara kaore atu ana patai hei patai. 896. Henare Kaihau : I mea mai hoki te kai-korero kia kaua au c patai kia mutu ra ano tana utu mai. A kua rongo atu au ki taua utu, a kaore kau he kai kei r@to ? Paratene Ngata : Eki ana au kaore tahi he tikanga o to patai mai ano ki au. Kua hoki katoa i au o patai. 897. Henare Kaihau : E hiahia aua au kite patai kia koe mehemea lie pukapuka ano ranei kei a koe, pukapuka whakahau ranei ato iwi i a koe kite whakapuaki i o whakaaro kite komiti penei me tau i mea nei, i haere mai koe ki konei kite tautoko i tenei Pire. Te take ote patai; kua ki koe ko te hiahia tuatahi o te iwi he whakatikatika i te Pire, a c hiahia ana au kia mohio mehemea he pukapuka whakamana ano ranei kei a koe whakahau ia koe kia tautoko i te Pire i tona ahua c takoto nei ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore, ko taku i ki ai kei te tino marama tonu. 898. Henare Kaihau : Ko toku hiahia kau kia ki mai koe i te ac ranei, i te kaore ranei, heoi ano ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore tahi ano au kia ki noa kite komiti c, kaore au c pai ana ki nga menemana. 899. Henare Kaihau : E penei ana te ritenga o to utu mama,i na, kaore he pukapuka a to iwi kei a koe whakahau ia koe kite whakarereke i nga tikanga i whakahaerea tuatahitia ai c koe ? Paratene Ngata : Kua pau atu ia au kite Komiti nga mea katoa i mahia kite hui ki Papawai, a kua tae atu ano hoki i a au kite Komiti nga whakaaro o nga tangata o te Tai Rawhiti me te Tai Hauauru hoki. Kei te aroaro katoa ote Komiti, a kei te whakahaere au mo toku iwi iaau c mea nei c, mehemea ka kore c taea te whakauru enei menemana ki roto kite Pire, heoi tukuna atu te Pire kia paahitia, ahakoa kaore he menemana. Kua tuku toku iwi i a ratou ki roto ki toku ringa, kia ahei ai taku tiaki i a ratou i au i Poneke nei. 900. Henare Kaihau : E patai ana au ki a koe mo te toru mano tangata i haina i tetahi pukapuka c tautoko ana i nga menemana ote Pire; kaore au i te patai mo te tekau mano c tino whakahe rawa nei i te Pire, engari mo te toru mano c tautoko ana i nga menemana ; he reta ano ranei kei a koe na aua tangata ? Paratene Ngata : Ko te taima tuatahi tenei ou i patai ai mo te toru mano ; ko to patai i mua ake ra mo toku iwi anake. Te Tiamana : Mo te patai a Kaihau, ki toku mahara kaore he tikanga c peehi rawa ai ia i tena patai. Kua whakaae te Komiti ko ia kai-korero, c tautokona ana ratou c tena wahanga c tena wahanga o te iwi Maori, a ki toku mahara c whakapono ana te Komiti ki tenei kai-korero c tautokona ana ia c tetahi wahanga o te iwi ? Henare Kaihau : E tika ana ta te Tiamama, engari he whakaatu taku kite Tiamana kua kite kaikorero nei kaore i haere mai ite tuatahi kite tautoko ite Pire, engari kite tono kia whakaurua nga menemana i mahia etc hui ki Papawai. A i haere mai ano ia he mea ata tono mama tona iwi kite waihanga i tetahi rarangi menemana me etahi rarangi here hei whakauru kite Pire. Ko tenei c kiana . ia, akakoa, mehemea ka kore aua menemana me aua rarangi hove uru, tukuna atu kia paahitia. Xi toku whakaaro, c whakaatu ana mai tena kei te whakahaere ano ia mo tona ake mana, c hara 1 te mea

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whakaae na tona iwi iaia c hapai nei, kaore, no te mea kai te hapa tonu ano nga menemana. Na kona, c mea ana au kia ki mai ia, mehemea koi na tana whakahaere, heoi whakahaere ana ia i runga i tona ake mana. Xi te ki tuturu mai ia i tena penei kua marama atu au. Otiia ko te unuhia eau te patai mehemea c mahara ana te Tiamana kaore i te tika kia pataia ? Te 'Tiamana : Xi toku mahara kaore c tika kia akina rawatia te patai nei ? Hon. Timi Kara : Ka kitea i te pitihana tona ritenga. Paratene Nyata: Mehemea ka titiro te Komiti i te pitihana, tera c kitea c ki penei ana matou, na kai te whakaae matou kite Pire mehemea ka uru nga menemana i mahia cte hui ki Papawai. 901 Henare Kaihau : Ka paingia etc Komiti tena mea. Kua unuhia eau taku patai. Taku whakarongo atu kite kai-korero iki penei ia he tangata ia c matau ana kite mahi Kooti Whenua Maori, mo nga mahi pera, no kona ia i mohio ai ki nga hiahia o te iwi Maori ? Paratene Ngata :Ac; he kai-whakahaere whai raihana au, ctv ana au kite aroaro ote Kooti pena me te roia. Ko au tetahi o taua iwi kino na. 902. Henare Kaihau : Mehemea ko koe tetahi o te hunga whakahaere c meatia nei kia tv i raro ite Pire, ko te mohio ranei koe kite whakahaere i nga mea cpa ana ki nga whenua ote iwi ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Ko au te tino tangata o toku iwi, c tino whakahaere ana i nga mea penei me tenei, i r ito ranei i te Kooti Whenua Maori, i nga mahi ranei o waho i waenganui o te Maori me te Pakeha, me nga mea pena katoa. Ka taea c nga Tiati o te Kooti, c tae ake ana ki toku takiwa i tena wa i tena wa, te whakatika aku kupu. Heoi anake te he, ko te kore kaore he korero kei konei hei tautoko i taku c ki nei ko nga kupu anake o toku mangai. 903. Henare Kaihau: E pai ana, kaati kua ki ake nei koe ko koe, he tangata c mohio ana ki nga matauranga c pai ana mo nga whakahaere o nga whenua me nga mahi Kooti hoki, me nga uiui take whenua, me etahi atu mea pena; tena mehemea c tono ana te Kotahitanga mo tetahi Kaunihera Maori a whiwhi ana ratou ki ta ratou i tono ai, a whakamanaia ana ratou kite whakatu i tena Kaunihera, a kite whakahaere ano i nga ritenga o o ratou whenua, a kaore ratou c whakararurarutia mai cte Poari, ka tautoko ranei koe i tena mehemea ka paahitia c te Whare tetahi ritenga whakamana i tenei ahua whakahaere? Paratene Ngata : Ehara ia nei tena ite mea c tonoa nei eau ? Kaore ia nei tena c rite ana ki tena c mau nei i te Pire. 904. Henare Kaihau : Kaore, ehara i tena ? , Paratene Ngata : E tono ana au i ta te toru mano c tono nei—kia pena me ta ratou c mea na i roto i te tono kia hoatu te mana ki nga komiti me te Poari. 905 Henare Kaihau : Ac ; engari he mea whai tikanga kei taku patai, c mea ana me patu rawa atu te Poari i taku patai. Penei taku patai na: Mehemea ka paahitia c te W.hare tetahi ture whakatu i etahi tangata pena me au c ki nei—tangata whai whakaaro, tangata matau, tangata mohio, ara kua taungatia ratou, hei whakahaere, ka tautoko ranei koe i tena? Paratene Ngata :Mo te Maori anake ranei to patai, kei te tae atu hoki ranei kite Pakeha? 906. Henare Kaihau : Penei taku patai na : Xi te paahitia etc Whare tetahi tikanga whakamana kia uru tetahi Pakeha ki roto kite ropu hunga whakahaere ; heoi anake te Pakeha c uru ana ki taku patai ? Paratene Ngata : Mehemea ka rite tena tikanga ki toku whakaaro ake ka tautokona c au. Mehe mea c kino ana te ingoa nei " Poari "ki a koe me riiwhi kite ingoa nei " Komiti." Me waiho nga mema o taua komiti hei te Maori. Me waiho ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna hei Tiamana. Ka whakaae au ki tetahi tikanga pena me tena ; engari mehemea ka waiho he Maori anake kaore au c mohio. 907. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i te patai mo te Poari mo tetahi atu mea pera ranei, engari mo nga Maori rawa anake, a c penei taku whakarongo atu ki a koe kaore tahi koe c pai me Maori anake ki reira, engari ko to hiahia me uru rawa ano ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna ki reira hei Tiamana ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; mehemea ranei ka hoatu ko tetahi atu Pakeha ka tika tonu ano. Ate wa ra auo c mohio ai te Maori kite whakahaere, ka whai taima noa atu a taua rate hoatu he Maori anake mo te ropu hunga whakahaere. 908. Henare Kaihau : Tena kei te kuare tonu koia koe ? Paratene Nyata : Kaore; he nui rawa atu toku matauranga, kaore etahi tangata c penei me au te mohio. Ahakoa he tangata matau au, he tangata kua taungatia, he tangata tika hoki, akuanei ka tamia toku matauranga i runga i te mea he kuare oku hoa, mehemea ka waiho he Maori katoa ki runga i te Poari, ka moumou noa iho toku matauranga. Tetahi hoki ko te iwi Maori he iwi kaore ana moni. Henare Kaihau : Etc Tiamana, ki toku mahara me whakamutu c koe tenei tv ahua o te kai-korero c kauhau mai nei i nga utu o nga patai ? Te Tiamana : Xi toku mahara he whakamarama kau ta te kai-korero i tana utu mo te patai ? Paratene Ngata : Ko nga komiti he Maori anake ona mema kaore c riro mai i a ratou he moni, heoi he mate nui kei tena. 909. Henare Kaihau : Tena, mehemea kaore tahi he whenua o te Maori, ki tou whakaaro me pehea c whiwhi ai ratou kite moni ? He pono ra tenei na, he mea mokete ano na ratou ki runga i o ratou whenua i whiwhi ai ratou nei ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, koia tenei, engari mehemea he Maori anake nga mema o te Poari tera c tino uaua rawa ka whiwhi ai ratou kite moni. E kore te hunga whai moni c pai kite whakaputa moni kite Maori, engari mehemea ka tv ko te Komihana tetahi o nga mema, penei ka haere koia tetahi hei whakahaere atu kite hunga tuku moni, tera aua tangata c whakapono mai he Poari whai tikanga taua Poari c tono moni atu nei ki a ratou. 910. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, he patai poto tenei ki a koe, mehemea nou ake te whenua, ka whakaae ano ranei koe ma te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna koe c tohutohu mo te whakahaere i to whenua ?

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Paratene Ngata: Kua utua noatia atu eau tena patai, iaui ki ake ra c, ko au c korero nei c korero ana au mo toku ake tinana tae atu ki toku iwi, mo tetahi tikanga whakahaere mo o matou whenua. 911. Henare Kaihau : Tena, c hara ia nei i te mea he whakaatu tena nau i tou kuare, i tou mohio kore hoki, i mea ai koe kite hoatu ki tetahi tangata matau atu i a koutou, ko ia hei rangatira whakahaere mo a koutou mea. Ara ko tena ritenga, he whakaatu nau i tou whakaaro ake •he penei nau na, " Kaore au c kaha kite whakahaere i au no reira c ahei ana ma tetahi atu tangata au c whakahaere " ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ; engari na te nui ra pea na te nui o toku matauranga i whakaae ai au, koi nei ke te tikanga tino pai c puta ai he painga nui ki au. 912. Henare Kaihau : Toku mahara ehara tena i te utu tika mo te patai ? Paratene Ngata : Toku mahara ra he utu tika tena utu. 913. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, maku c whakaatu kite kai-korero ko nga tangata kuare — ko nga porangi katoa o te koroni, he kai-tiaki katoa o ratou, penei me enei c meatia nei hei tiaki i a ratou tae atu ki a ratou mea katoa, pena ano te ritenga mo nga haua, mo nga kopiri, turoro hoki, kua wehea he hohipera, he whare hei tiakanga i a ratou. Pera te ahua puta noa te koroni nei. He tangata mohio kei aua whare hei atawhai pai i aua haua, me a ratou mea katoa. He hohipera ano hoki mo te hunga c pangia ana etc mate. He tangata ano hoki kua whakaturia hei tirotiro mo nga mahinga ki i te whenua tae atu ki nga kararahe o ia ahua o ia ahua —hei tiaki i ena mea katoa; a kaati, ko te ritenga o to tono c tono nei he tono kia tv te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna hei kai-tiaki mo nga whenua o nga Maori, mou hoki, me to iwi tae atu ki a ratou mea katoa, heoi he whakaatu tena ko to iwi he iwi kuare, me koe he kuare, c ai ki to tono, c tonoa nei c koe ? Paratene Ngata : Heoi kaore au ite pai ki tenei patai, kei te pouri au ki tenei patai. Te take c mea ana he porangi au ; mehemea c tika ana tena, kaati he porangi ngatahi hoki te Kawanatanga, notemea kua whakaturia hoki c ia etahi apiha pena mana, ara, te Kai-tiaki mo te Katoa, hei kai-tiaki mo te katoa ote tangata. Tera atu ano etahi; ara ko te Komihana me nga kai-tiaki mo nga whenua ote Karauna, heoi he porangi katoa ano hoki pea te Kawanatanga, ma hoki kua kitea nei c ia c ahei ana kia whakaaturia ena tangata. A, c whakaatu ana au kite kai-patai ko tana patai ke pea ia kei te porangi, kaore ite hunga tangata c kiia noatia nei eia he porangi. Na ko te whiwhi ote koroni me nga painga o te koroni c puta ana mai i runga i te mahi a nga apiha a te Kawanatanga, kite tiaki kite whakahaere pai i nga mea katoa o te koroni, no kona au i hiahia ai kia kite i tetahi tikanga pena mo nga whenua o te iwi Maori. 914 Hon. Timi Kara : Xi tou whakaaro koia na runga ite mea ko te Komihana kei te whakahaere i nga whenua o te Karauna, no reira me pera ano hoki he whakahaere mo nga whenua Maori ? Paratene Ngata: Ac, kei te pena ano hoki pea te takoto o nga whenua ote kai-patai. Akuanei tera he whenua ano pea ona c ahei ana kia tiakina c tetahi tangata, hei pupuri hei tiaki hei rahui hoki mona. 915. Henare Kaihau : Kai te tika tena, engari kaore au c whakaae ma tenei tikanga c whakarite c oti ai. Kaore au c pai kia taunutia mai au ano he tamaiti ano he porangi, penei na c kaore oku kaha kite whakahaere i aku mahi Mo runga ite hapainga mai ia te kai-korero ko te Kaitiaki hei tauira whakarite mana, c ki ana au kaore rawa tena i te hangai ki nga ritenga o nga whenua Maori, he mea ke tena. Kai te mohio tonu ra koe, kaore tahi c puta ana mai he painga ki a koe ki a wai tangata ranei i runga ite mahi ate Kai-tiaki mo te Katoa, engari kite Kawanatanga anake. Ko te Kawanatanga, i whakatu ai i aua apiha hei tiaki i ana mea anake, kaore mo nga mea a tetahi atu tangata. Ehara ia nei ite mea c pena ana tona ritenga? Paratene Ngata : Mo runga i to ki he porangi au, mo taku kiinga he mea tika ma te komiti c tiaki a matou mea, no reira ka penei taku utu atu, mehemea he pono tena, kaati, he porangi hoki te Kawanatanga, ma hoki, kua whakatu nei hoki ia i tetahi Kai-tiaki mo te Katoa. Te Tiamana: Taku titiro he tautohetohe kau tenei na te kai-patai raua ko te kai-korero ki a raua mo runga i tetahi take kaore nei c tata ana ki nga mea mo runga i te Pire c hiahiatia nei c te Komiti kia whakaaturia mai. Toku hiahia me patai a Henare Kaihau, ame utu te kai-kororo i nga patai, a me mutu hoki tenei tautohetohe a raua. Henare Kaihau : Toku mahara epa ana taku patai ki runga kite Pire. Mehemea ka pataia eau tetahi atu ahua patai ko te whakaroiroi ano te roia matau nei, a c kore c tika tana utu mai ? Te Tiamana : Me patai kau ra koe ? 916. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana ; eki ana te Tiamana me haere tonu aku patai i nga mea c pa ana kite Pire. Na, c mea ana au kia ata whakarongo mai te Tiamana ki nga utu mai mo enei patai aku c whai ake nei. Eki ana a tekiona 7o te Pire c takoto nei i te aroaro ote Komiti kia tokorima nga mema ote Poari; tokohia nga mema Maori i roto i tena tokorima ;me Maori katoa ratou me Pakeha katoa ranei. E penei ana te tikanga o taku patai, c pehea ana te hiahia o tou iwi i runga i nga menemana ? Paratene Nyata: Ka poto noa iho taku whakahoki. Kia tokorima nga mema —me noho puku koe, tukua au kia korero, noku tenei taima i naianei. E penei ana nga menemana whakatikatika a nga Maori, kia tokowha nga mema Maori kia kotahi te mema Pakeha—ara, ko te Komihana mo nga Whenua Karauna. 917. Henare Kaihau : Ka mutu i tena to hiahia ? Paratene Ngati : Kua oti atu tena te whakatakoto atu kite Komiti. 918. Henare Kaihau : Xi te kore tena c whakaaetia, ka pehea? Paratene Ngata : Kaati, ka waiho atu c au kite Whare te whakaaro, mana c hurihuri te Pire me nga menemana. 919. Henara Kaihau : Akuanei ka mahara te Komiti, c penei ana na tau, kaore to iwi c whakaae kia hoki iho i te tokowha nga mema Maori mo te Poari ? Paratene Ngata : Kei te whakahe au, kia riro mau c hanga mai he whakahoki maku. Maku ano c hamumu atu aku whakahoki, kaore au c pai mau c hanga mai he whakahoki maku 920. Henare Kaihau: Mo tekiona 13 o te Pire tuatahi tenei patai aku, he 19 te nama o taua tekiona i roto i ta koutou Pire i whakatikatika nei, he pehea tau korero mo tenei tekiona ?

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Paratene Ngata : Kotahi tonu taku whakautu mo nga patai pena te ahua, ahakoa c taki rima ana c taki ono ana nga patai pena mo ia tekiona o te Pire—kotahi ano taku whakautu mo ratou katoa. Kua mahia c matou a matou menemana mo te Pire nei a kua takoto atu i a matou kite aroaro ote Komiti, a tenei hoki te Pire c takoto nei Ma te Komiti me te Whare c whiriwhiri c whakatau i waenganui i enei mea c rua. Kua korero au kite Komiti mo tekiona 13 ote Pire tuatahi, ko o matou taitara whenua me waiho ano ki a matou, engari he mea tika me tuku atu tetahi mana whakahaere kite Poari, kia whai mana ai te Poari kite tuku riihi i runga i te ture mo nga whenua c whakahaerea ana c ia. Koia tena taku kupu, a c pai noa atu ana au kia waiho atu ma te Whare c whakatau. Tetahi o aku kupu, kaore ano tenei Pire i whakamatauria c kitea ai ona pai me ona kino,.kaore ano hoki i whakahaerea. Kia whakahaerea ra ano, hei reira taea ai te titiro ona pai me ona kino; aki te kitea nga wahi kino, heoi me whakatikatika ena wahi. Koia tena taku whakautu mo ena tv patai katoa. 921. Henare Kaihau: Kua tirohia c koe a tekiona 14 ote Pire ? Paratene Ngata : Kua utua c au tena patai. 922. Henare Kaihau •" E pehea ana ki tau whakaaro te tikanga o taua tekiona ? Paratene Ngata : Tona tikanga he whakaputa taitara hou. 923. Henare Kaihau : Kaore koia taua tekiona c muru ana i nga Karauna karaati ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore kau tena kupu te " muru" i roto i tena tekiona. 924. Henare Kaihau : Ha, kite whakaputaina he taitara ke mo nga whenua katoa, he aha tena ? Paratene Ngata : Ko tona tikanga c penei ana, mate Poari c whakaputa he taitara hou. 925. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, kaore koe c matatau ana kite tikanga o tena tekiona. Paratene Ngata : Kei te tino mohio au. 926. Henare Kaihau : Kaore koia c penei ana na taua tekiona, ma te Poari c whakaputa he taitara hou, ahakoa c puritia ana te whenua i raro i te Karauna karaati i tetahi atu tv taitara ranei—ara, ka taea taua taitara te whakakore atu ka whakaputaina he taitara hou kite Poari. Kaore koia koe ite mohio kei te pena te tikanga o taua tekiona ? Paratene Ngata : Kei te tino mohio au ki ona tikanga katoa. Kaore rawa ite ngaro iau tetahi wahi o te tekiona. *927. Henare Kaihau: A, he aha te take i kore ai koe c whakaatu mai i tona tikanga ? Paratene Ngata : I mahara au i patai mai koe ki a au mehemea kua tirohia c au taua tekiona. 928. Henare Kaihau: Me pehea te Komiti c mohio ai kite tikanga o ena korero au, eki nei koe kei te mohio koe ki nga tikanga katoa o taua tekiona, a kei te pataitanga atu kaore koe c korero mai i tona tikanga ? Paratena Ngata : Ehara ite mea maku c tohutohu te Komiti. Me mohio ake ano ratou i au, he mema nei hoki ratou no te Paremete ? 929. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, me patai atu eau tenei patai: Kaore koia ite penei na taua tekiona me whai mana te Poari kite whakakore atu i nga taitara, a kite whakaputa i etahi mea hou hei whakakapi i nga mea i whakakorea atu ra ? Paratene Ngata : Taku whakautu mo tena patai, kei te aroaro o te Komiti te Pire c takoto ana, a kua takoto atu hoki a matou menemana mo te Pire. Hon. Timi Kara : Xi taku mahara me marama ake te whakatakoto atu a Henare Kaihau i ana patai. E penei ana koia tau c muru ana taua tekiona i nga taitara o nga Maori ? Henare Kaihau : E penei ana taua tekiona: mehemea tera tetahi whenua c puritia ana i raro i tetahi Karauna karaati, a c mea ana te Poari me riro mana c whakahaere taua whenua, ka whai mana te Poari kite whakakore atu i taua Karauna karaati, a kite whakaputa i tetahi taitara hou mo taua whenua ? Hon. Timi Kara : Kaore koiae marama mehemea ka whakawhitiwhitingia tetahi taitara mo tetahi taitara penei ano me te mahi a te Kooti ma wehewehe i te whenua ; whakahaua ai kia whakahokia atu nga taitara tawhito, ka whakaputa ai i etahi mea hou hei riwhi mo era ? 930. Henare Kaihau : Ac ; engari he mea ke tenei. I raro i tenei tekiona ka taute whenua kite Poari, he rereke rawa te tikanga ote mahi wehewehe whenua ate Kooti Whenua Maori. Ka wehewehe te Kooti ite whenua me te whakatau ano ki etahi tangata. Ko te take hoki tena c mea ai au kia tino marama rawa nga kupu whakahoki mai a te kai-whakahoki korero ki taku patai [Xi te kaiwhakahoki patai]. I rongo au iki koe i nanahi, c mohio tuturu ana koe c marama ana koe kite whakahaere i nga whenua Maori. Xi to mahara he mama ake ranei nga mahi ate Poari ki runga ki nga Maori i nga Ture c mana nei i nainei ? Paratene Ngata : Mo nga whenua i toku takiwa, c mohio tuturu ana ahau ka mama ake, mo era atu takiwa, kaore au i te mohio. 931. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ranei koe c mohio ana ko te pikaunga tuatahi ko te Poari, ko te pikaunga tuarua ko te Kooti Whenua Maori, a i muri mai i ena, kote ruri, ko nga utu mo nga mema o te Poari, ko te utu mo nga mahi whakahaere katoa a te Poari, me era atu raruraru hoki mo nga riihi me te mahi hanga rori, me era atu mea ? Kaati ki to mahara tera ka mama ake enei kite mana te Pire nei ? E kore ranei c tino eke rawa te taimaha ki runga ki nga Maori ? E kore ranei c tino neke ake te nui o te pikaunga i to mua ahua ? Paratene Ngata : Kei te toe ano ranei tetahi taha o to patai ? 932. Henare Kaihau : Me matua utu mai tena, ko reira koe kite ai ? Paratene Ngata : Xi toku mahara. E kore c pena te taimaha me to mua. Tetahi hoki, kite tv he Poari, heoi ano ka tv tena hei riwhi mo te Kooti Whenua Maori. Henare Kaihau : Kahore he kupu pena i roto i te Pire ? Paratene Nyata : Kaati tau. Kua uru te kupu pera ki roto ki nga menemana. 934. Henare Kaihau : Ac ; kite whakaaetia o menemana ka pai. Engari kite tapahia atu, me pewhea ? Paratene Ngata : Eki atu ana ahau ki a koe, kaati tau. Xi te korero tonu koe, kua kore c taea c au te korero.

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Tβ Tiamana : Me utu c te kai-whakahoki korero te patai ? Paratene Ngata : Na mo nga rori; ko te mate tena o toku takiwa. Kaore he rori; ensari kite paahitia te Pire nei hei Ture, ka taea te whakarite he rori, a hei painga nui tena mo toku takiwa. 935. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i patai atu ki a koe mo tena. Tenei ke taku i patai ai mehemea ka nui ake ka iti iho ranei te taimaha o te pikaunga ki runga ki nga Maori kite paahitia te Pire nei hei Ture, i to mua tikanga? Te Tiamana : Kua tino tohitu te utu mai ate kai-whakahoki patai i taua patai. Ikiia ka iti iho te taimaha o te pikaunga, kaore he take i patapataia atu ano ki a ia? Paratene Ngata : I ki ahau ka mama ake te taimaha, aka whai atu aku korero mo nga rori. 936. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i patai atu ki a koe mo nga rori ? Paratene Ngata : E ki ana ahau mehemea ka hanga he rori ki toku takiwa ka neke ake te utu mo te whenua i roto i toku nei takiwa. 937. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i tono kia whakahokia mai c koe te kupu pera. Eki ana koe tera c puta mai he painga i runga ite mahi hanga rori: ame pehea te utu i taua mahi ? Ka tangohia nga taitara i nga tangata no ratou te whenua, me utu te mahi a te Kooti, a me utu hoki nga taitara hou Otiia, ka peneitia eau te patai: He aha te utu reti c utua ana etc Pakeha mo te eka i roto i to takiwa ? Paratene Ngata : He Is. tae atu kite Is. 3d., te take i iti iho ai te utu he kore rori. 938. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra me ki tatou he Is. mo te eka ? Paratene Ngata : E patai mai ana koe, c whakahokia atu ana c ahau. I patai mai koe mo te utu reti mo te eka c riro mai ana i a matou i to matou takiwa, a me whakaatu atu c ahau tena ano te take, haunga ia te kore rori, i iti iho ai te utu reti c riro mai ana i a matou mo a matou whenua, ara, kaore i whakamanaia he ropu tangata hei whakahaere i enei mea mo te katoa. Mehemea i whakaritea he (ikanga penei, ki taku mahara tera c tae te utu reti tika mo nga whenua kite ss. kite 7s. 6d., tae rawa atu kite 10s. mo te eka mo etahi. ■ 939. Henare Kaihau : Kei te mea koe, ki to mahara tera c tae te utu reti kite 10s. mo te eka mo te whenua he ngahere etahi wahi, he rarauhe etahi wahi, c mea ana ranei koe ko te utu tena mo te whenua kua ata whakapaingia ? Paratene Ngata: E mea ana ahau mo te whenua pai rawa. 940. Henare Kaihau : B ki ana koe ki to mahara tera c tae kite ss. kite 10s. te utu reti mo te eka c riro mai, a i patai atu ahau mehemea he ngahere etahi wahi, he rarauhe etahi wahi o te whenua pai nei, ac ki mai ana koe " Kaore." Heoi ra, ki taku titiro atu c mea ana koe ko nga whenua anake kua whakapaingia kua ruia kite karaihe c tae ana kite utu reti pera. A, eki mai ana hoki koe mo te whenua pai taua utu, otiia, e.kore koe c whakaatu mai, mehemea he whenua kua whakapaingia kua ruia kite karaihe, mehemea ranei he whenua he ngahere etahi wahi he rarauhe etahi wahi ? 941. Te Tiamana: Kei te penei te ahua o te patai nei, kei te mea te kai-whakahoki patai ka tae te utu reti mo nga whenua kua whakapaingia kite 10s. mo te eka? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Engari c kore c pena te utu reti mo nga whenua kino tikanga kore. Kaore he rori i runga i a£u nei whenua. 942. Henare Kaihan : Ehara tena ite whakahoki mai mo taku patai. Xi te whakaaro ate Tiamana he whakahoki mai tena mo taku patai? Te Tiamana: I mahara ahau i penei te aro ote patai a Henare Kaihau, ara, mehemea c tae te utu reti mo te whenua kua oti te para, kua whakapaingia kite 10s. mo te eka, a c ki ana te kaiwhakahoki patai, tera c pera te utu reti mo te whenua pera. Henare Kaihau : Xi taku, kai te ahua horihori te whakahoki mai ite patai. Eki ana ia tera c tae te utu reti mo te whenua pai ki taua utu, engari kaore i ata whakaaturia mai c ia he aha te ahua o te whenua pai. 943. Te Tiamana : Kua kiia mai c ia tera c tae te utu reti mo nga whenua kua oti te para te whakapai te mahi he rori kite 15s. mo te eka. [Xi te kai-whakahoki patai] : E tae ranei te utu mote whenua pai kaore nei ano kia para, kia whakapaingia, kaore nei he rori i runga kite 10s. mo te eka ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore; he Is. tae atu kite Is. 3d. te utu reti mo te eka. Henare Kaihau : Kua rite ano tena ki taku i ki ai he hereni tonu te utu mo te eka. Te Tiamana : E Kaihau, kua ea to patai i tena. 944. Henare Kaihau: Ac ;Iki ia Is. Tena, atewa c whakahaerea ai te whenua pera ite aroaro o te Kooti he aha te utu mo te eka ? Paratene Ngala : Kaore au c mohio ki tena, ta te mea hoki ko etahi whenua ahua ririki nei he roa te mahinga katahi ka puta i te Kooti, he whenua nui ano kotahi ra c mahia ana ka puta. 945. Henare Kaihau : Kei te mohio koe kite utu mo te mahi ruri i te eka kotahi ? Paratene Ngata : Mehemea ka tae atu te kai-ruri kite ruri i te eka kotahi anake, aianei pea ka neke ake te utu i te £5 mo te eka. 946. Henare Kaihau : Ako teutu mo te Kooti he Is. ka £5 Is. Ko te utu me te ota £1, ko te whakawakanga £1, ka £7 la. ; c 2s. mo te kai-whaki kororo, ka tae ai te utu kite £7 3s. hui atu ki tenei ko te utu mo te kai-whakahaere c 9d. pea nga kapa mo tena. Na, mehemea ko koe te kai-whaka-haere i te riihi o te whenua penei i te aroaro o te Poari, he aha te utu ka tonoa c koe mo tau mahi ? Hon. Timi Kara : Xi taku mahara kei te titiro a Henare Kaihau i te ahua o tetahi tikanga o tetahi tikanga whakahaere mehemea ko tehea te mea pai, a c ahua whakauruurua ana c ia tetahi ki tetahi Ko tana c patai nei he aha te utu i raro ito .jaianei tikanga, a tena ano pea ka pataia eia he aha te utu i raro i tera tikanga whakahaere. Henare Kaihau : Kei te whakahe au ki to mahi whakamarama i aku patai, me to mahi whakamarama atu hoki ite aronga o aku patai. Ma nga kupu whakahoki mai ke c whakamarama. Hon. Timi Kara : Heoi taku, he whakamarama kau. heoi ano. 947. Henare Kaihau (Xi te kai-whakahoki patai) : Mehemea koe he mema no te Poari, c taea ranei c koe te whakaatu mai te nui o te utu mo te mahi whakahaere i te riihi mo te eka kotahi ? Te Tiamana : Me korero atu ahua kite kai-whakahoki patai raua ko Henare Kaihau, kaore i te tika tena ahua patai. E whakarite a ana c Kaihau te 10,000 eka kite kotahi eka, kaore ite tika tena 12—1. 3a.

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whakarite hei kimi ite utu mo te riihi. Takitahi noa iho nga whenua i kotahi te eka c whakawakia ana c te Kooti, a ka rahi ake ano hoki te utu c pau mo te whakahaerenga i te eka 1 i to te 10,000 eka. Henare Kaihau : He patai tohitu taku mo te kotahi eka. Hon. Tima Kara : Etc Tiamana, ki taku c tika ana te aronga o tenei patai mehemea c kore c whakauruurua eia nga tikanga whakahaere o tetahi ki tetahi. Eki ana ia c mea te utu i raro ito naianei tikanga whakahaere, a c kimi ana i te utu mo te whakahaere i raro i te tikanga hou ; engari ki taku titiro atu kei te whakauruuru ia i nga tikanga o tetahi ki tetahi. Te Tiamana; E kore c taea c koe te whakautu i te utu mo te whakahaere i te riihi mo te 1 eka kite utu mo te mahi pera mo te 10,000 eka. Paratene Ngata : Tena, mo te kotahi eka nei. Aianei tera pea c tonoa etc roia kia £20 mo te mahinga i te tiiti, me te utu hoki mo te kai-whakamaori mo te rehitatanga he utu ano, me te tiuti me era atu mea hoki, tera c neke noa atu nga moni c pau. Heoi me ki au ka rite te utu mo nga whakahaerenga c pa ana kite eka kotahi kite utu mo te whakahaerenga c pa ana kite 100,000 eka. 948. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra, me ki tatou ki a £10 ? Paratene Nyata : Ka neke ake te utu i tera. Ka neke rawa ake i tera te utu mo te mahinga ite tiiti te utu mo te roia me era atu mea c tau ana. Ka neke rawa ake i tena. 949. Henare Kaihau : Tena, mehemea kua oti katoa nga raruraru te mahi i te tuatahi, kua whakawakia te taitara, kua oti te ruri, me era atu mea katoa c tau ana, a kua tukua te whenua kite Poari kia riihitia, ki to mahara c rite ranei te nui o te utu mo nga whakahaerenga mo te tuku kite riihi ki to naianei tikanga? Paratene Nyata : I haere aku kupu whakahoki i runga i te mahara kei te mau tonu te mana o naianei ture. E kore c pena te nui o te utu mehemea kua tv te Poari kua whakahaere hoki ite tikanga mo nga mea penei. He £1 pea tae atu kite £3 te utu. Ko te utu mo te mahinga anake ite tiiti te utu c tonoa. 950. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra, me ki tatou kia £1 ? ' Paratene Nyata : Kia £3. 951. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana, kia £3. A mehemea ka huihuia atu nga utu ote tuatahi kite £3 na, ka tae atu te moni i w r hakapaua i runga i te tutukitanga o tenei whakahaere kite £10? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; ka hoki katoa atu te moni ra, a te wa c riihitia atu ai c te Poari te whenua kite Pakeha, ka hoki a reti katoa mai te moni. 952. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ano au kia patai atu i tena ? Paratene Ngata : Ko te utu ra tena. 953. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ano au i patai atu mehemea tera c whakahokia mai aua moni. Ko taku c patai ai he aha te utu. Me kaua koe c hopu noa ite ahua o aku patai ? Kei au ke te tikanga patapatai, heoi kau tau he whakahoki mai i aua patai. Ma tena ka tae ai te utu kite £10? Paratene Ngata : Kaati, mau c tatau haere. 954. Henare Kaihau : Iki koe i naianei he £7. A, apiti atu ki tena ko nga moni c£3 te utu ki te Poari. Tena huihuia te £7 me te £3 ? Paratene Nyata : Kua kiia atu nei c ahau mau c tatau haere ko tau mahi he patapatai. 955. Henare Kaihau : E kore c taea c koe te huihui i te £3 me te £7. Paratene Ngata : hhara tena ite patai. Pataia mai he patai. 956. Henare Kaihau : Ko taku patai tena : Huihuia te £3 me te £7 ka hia? Paretene Ngata : Ehara tena i te patai. Te Tiamana : Xi taku mahara kaua c tohe tonu tena patai. 957. Henare Kaihau : He patai nui rawa taku kei te whai mai i tera, engari c mea ana au me matua whakahoki mai te utu mo tenei? Paratene. Ngata : E kore ahau c mohio mehemea he patai nui rawa he patai iti ranei tena patai. Hon. Timi Kura : Xi taku whakaaro ma nga kupu whakahoki ki nga patai kitea ana c tae ana nga moni c pau mo te whakawakanga, mo nga kai-whaki korero, mo te ruri, te utu mo te roia, mo te rehitatanga, ara, ka tae nga moni katoa c pau mo te eka kotahi kite £20—moni pena ranei—a pataia atu ana ki a Paratene Ngata mehemea ka mama ake mehemea ka - whakahaerea i raro i te Poari, a i ki mai ia " Ac." Katahi ka patai atu a Kaihau ki aia" ki to mahara c hia nga moni c pau ? " kiia ana c Paratene Ngata. "He £I—tae atu kite £3." Katahi ka kiia c Kaihau, "Me ki tatou ki a £1," mea mai ana a Paratene Ngata, "ki a £3," katahi ka kiia atu c Kaihau, " Huihuia taua £3 ki nga utu c pau i raro i o naianei ture, hui katoa ena c hia ? "

Tueei, 25 o Oketopa, 1898. Paeatene Ngata : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 958. Henare Kaihau : I whai aku kupu patai whakamutunga i te Paraire mo nga utu c whakapaua i nga whakahaerenga tuatahi i te whenua, a i runga i o kupu whakahoki mai kitea ana tae ana aua utu kite £7, hui atu ki nga utu ruri, ko te utu kite Poari c£2 tae atu kite £3, a tera c tae nga utu mo te eka kotahi kite £10 ? Te Tiamana : Kei te pohehe pea a Henare Kaihau, ma hoki te ahua o tana patai. Xi taku i mahara ai i kite kai-whakahoki patai, ki to naianei tv whakahaere tera c tae nga utu mo te mahi whakahaere kite £7, kite riro ma te komiti c meingatia ana kia whakaturia c£3 anake nga moni c pau. Na konei pea i pohehe ai a Kaihau, ara i huihuia c ia aua moni ra, i £10 ai te huihuinga. 959. Henare Kaihau : Ko taku tenei i mea ai, ka tika kia huihuia nga moni i whakapaua i te whakawakanga o nga whenua c te Kooti i mua i te whakatuunga o nga Poari, ki nga moni c whakapaua mo te mahi ate Poari, ako te huihuinga o aua moni rate utu mo te mahi whakahaere i te whenua? Paratene Ngata : Kaore; i ki ahau i neke rawa ake te utu ite tuatahi; ka neke rawa ake te utu i raro i nga ture c mana nei i naianei i te utu c mahara'ana matou c whakapaua, i raro i te Pire

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nei; ki taku mahara, i raro i tenei Pire c kore c neke ake i te £3 nga moni c pau mo te mahi whakahaere i te poraka whenua : He nui o kupu patai tikanga mo te eka kotahi. .960. Henare Kaihau: E pai ana, me penei te ahua o taku patai ki a koe : Mehemea pea tena he whenua 10,000 nga eka, kua oti nga ruri, kua whakawakia c te Kooti, kua oti hoki era atu tikanga c tau ana, a kite paahitia te Pire nei kia mana, aka tukua te whenua nei kia whakahaerea c taua Poari—tena he aha te utu mo te eka mo nga 10,000 eka nei mo nga whakawa o te tuatahi ? Paratene Ngata: Kaore au c mohio he aha te utu mo te whakawakanga me nga utu ruri i raro i nga ture c mana ana i naianei; notemea hoki ko etahi whenua c oti ana i nga ra c rua c toru, ko etahi tekau nga marama ka oti te whakawa. Engari ka ki au kite tukua ma te Poari c mahi te mahi c whakahaerea nei c te Kooti Whenua Maori i naianei ka mama ake te utu i to mua tikanga. Ma nga komiti hoki c whakarite nga tikanga, ka tuku atu ai i a ratou whakataunga ki te Poari, a ma te Poari c whakamana. Ka neke ake te pai o tenei ito mua tikanga. Ko taku whakahoki tena. 961. Henare Kaihau : Kaore i te marama tena utu? Paratene Ngata: Ma te Komiti eki mehemea c marama ano kaore ranei. 962. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra, ka whakapotoa c ahau taku patai, ka peneitia c ahau. Xi taku whakarongo atu ki o kupu mehemea nei c mea ana koe, kei te taimaha aua tv whenua i runga i nga whakahaere a te Kooti, he roa te whakawakanga o etahi, c oti hohoro ana etahi, kei te pena koia tau ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, i raro i nga ture c mana nei i naianei; ac ki ana hoki ahau me kokiri he ture hei whakatikatika i tenei tikanga. 963. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana koe, he nui te taimaha ki etahi i naianei, he iti ki etahi. E kore ranei c taea c koe te whakaatu mai i te utu ma tuhaina ki runga ki katoa ? Paratene Ngata : Kua utua atu eau tena: ara he nui te utu mo etahi whenua he iti te utu mo etahi. 964. Henare Kaihau : Ka taea ranei c koe te whakaatu mai i te utu kei waenganui i enei c takoto ana? Paratene Ngata : E kore c taea eau te whakaatu nga whika. E kore ano hoki c taea c koe. 966. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i patai atu ki a koe moku, engari mou ke taku patai ? Te Tiamana: Me kaua c pena te whakahoki mai ate whakahoki patai. Mehemea c kore c taea c ia te whakaatu i te utu c pau i raro i nga ture c mana ana i naianei me pena tana ki mai. 967. Henare Kaihau (kite kai-whakahoki patai): Kaati, kaore c taea c koe te whakaatu mai? Paratene Ngata : Xi taku mahara c mea ana te kai-patai kia kiia c ahau c mea utu mo te eka. Kei te pena taku titiro atu ki ana kupu, taku kupu, kaore au c mohio. 968. Henare Kaihau: Ka taea ranei c koe te whakamarama mai nga moni c pau mo te eka o roto ote 10,000 eka, mehemea ka paahitia te Pire kua takoto nei kite aroaro ote Komiti hei Ture, a ka riro ma te Poari te whenua c whakahaere ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore. Xi taku, tera c iti iho te utu ito mua utu. 969. Henare Kaihau: Ko toku hiahia kia tohitu tonu to whakahoki mai i toku patai—kia pehea te hokinga iho o te utu ? Te Tiamana : Kua ki nei te kai-whakahoki patai c kore c taea c ia te whakahoki tohitu atu i taua patai. 970. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, mehemea eki ana ia c kore c taea eia te wkakahoki mai, heoi ano kua mutu taku. (Xi te kai-whakahoki patai) : E waiho ana c koe kia kimi noa te Komiti ite utu i pau ite tuatahi mo te mahi ruri me era atu mahi i te whakahaerenga ite whenua. I tae ranei te utu mo te katoa kite Is. mo te eka ? Paratene Ngata : E tae ana etahi kite Is., kite 35., kite 9d. mo te eka. Kei te nui ote whenua tetahi tikanga. 971. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, hei tauira mo taku korero, me ki kia Is. mo te eka ? Hon. Timi Kara : He 6d. i etahi, he 3d. i etahi, kei te nui ote whenua te tikanga. Kua oti te whakatakoto he rarangi whakaatu i te nui o nga utu. Henare Kaihau : E tae ana kite Is. mo te eka i naianei hui atu kite utu mo te mahi ruri. Te Tiamana: Kua takoto he rarangi whakaatu i te nui o nga utu, c mea utu mo te whenua ngahere, c mea utu mo te whenua parae, c mea utu mo nga wahi ururua. 972. Henare Kaihau : Koia tena taku c whai nei: He kimi kia mohiotia ai te utu kei waenganui i enei c takoto ana. Hei tauira mo tenei me ki tatou he Is. te utu mo te katoa ote whenua. Te take o tenei patai he mea kia marama ai te Komiti kia ahei hoki ratou te whakatau mehemea he Pire tenei c ora ai, c mate ai ranei te iwi Maori ? Paratene Ngata : E pai ana, ka waiho atu eau ite Is. Engari, me ki atu ahau kite kaipatai, ahakoa he pehea ranei te ture c mana ana, he pehea ranei te tikanga c whakahaerea ai nga whenua, me matua ruri te whenua. 973. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, c whakaae ana koe, me matua ruri te whenua, a ko te utu mo te mahi ruri he Is. mo te eka ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, hei tauira tenei whakaaetanga mo tenei korero. 974. Henare Kaihau : A, he aha te utu mo te ruri tuarua o te poraka, me ki 10,000 nga eka —ara, mo te ruri wehewehe, kia ahei ai te riihi: ka riihitia ranei taua whenua katoa kite tangata kotahi ? Paratene Ngata: Kaore. Ka wehewehea taua whenua ki etahi tangata riihi ai. Kei te takoto ote whenua te tikanga. Me pena hoki taku utu ite patai: kei te tv wehewehe te whenua te tikanga. 975. Henare Kaihau : Tena, me ki pea tatou he 6d. mo te eka ? J Paratene Ngata : E pai ana. Me ki c koe kia pera hei tauira mo tena korero.

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976. Henare Kaihau: A, tena, atewa c wehea ai nga whenua Maori i roto ite poraka, ka toru ai nga ruri ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore, c rua anake. Ka oti tena ite ruri wehewehenga. 977. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana. Kua whakaae koe; tera c tae kite Is. 6d. mo te eka mo te mahi ruri. Mo te mahinga rori c hia nga moni c pau mo te eka ? Paratene Ngata: Kaore c taea eau tena te whakahua noa, notemea c neke rawa ake ana te utu c pau i runga i te mahi whakatakoto ruri i runga i etahi whenua i te utu c whakapaua mo etahi. 978. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, c kore c taea c koe te whakahoki maii taku patai? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ahau c mohio. 979. Henare Kaihau: E mea ana ahau me ata tuhi rawa ta te kai-whakahoki patai eki nei, kaore c taea ana c ia te whakahua i te nui o te utu mo te mahi whakatakoto rori ki runga ki tetahi poraka whenua ? Paratene Ngata: Kaore rawa i pena aku kupu. Na te kai-patai taua kupu. 980. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au c marama ana kite tikanga oau kupu. I pataia c ahau mehemea ka taea c koe te whakahua i te utu mo te mahi whakatakoto rori i runga i tetahi poraka ai ki mai koe, kaore c taea c koe, ac ki nei koe kaore rawa i pena to kupu. E mea ana au kia whakahokia mai c koe tena ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au c mohio. 981. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, kite kore koe c mohio, he aha koe i tautoko tonu ai ite Pire nei, i te mea hoki kaore koe c mohio ana c hia nga moni c pau mo te mahi whakahaere whenua i raro i tenei Pire ? He aha koe i mea ai me paahi te Pire nei hei Ture, ma hoki kaore koe c mohio ana ki nga tikanga o taua Pire ? Iki koe i te tuatahi he tangata matau koe kua waia ki nga mahi, ahe aha hoki te take c kore ai koe c mohio ki nga tikanga o te Pire ? Paratene Ngata: Ac, ka tuaruatia ano c ahau taku kupu, he tangata mohio ahau kua waia ki nga mahi. 982. Henare Kaihau : Tena, he aha tau mea c mohio ana? Paratene Ngata : Kei te mohio au ki aku c mohio ana, engari kaore au c mohio ana kite utu mo enei ruri me etahi atu mea. E hiahia ana ahau kia paahi tenei Pire moku, kia pa hoki ki oku whenua. 983. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ite pena taku patai atu ki a koe ? E hiahia ana ahau kia whakahokia mai aku patai ? Paratene Ngata : Kei te whakahoki atu nei au i o patai. E hiahia ana ahau kia paahi tenei Pire moku, kia whakahaerea ki runga ki oku whenua kauaka mo ou. Maku te kupu mo oku whenua ake. 984. Henare Kaihau: Kahore au c patai atu ana ki a koe mo o whenua ake, engari mo te Pire nei ? Paratene Ngata: Kei te penei taku c korero nei. E hiahia ana ahau kite Pire nei mo oku whenua. 985. Henare Kaihau : Kaore i kiia i roto i te Pire nei i whakaurua te Pire nei hei painga mou, mehemea i kiia he pena te tikanga, kua kore aku patai atu ki a koe. Hei aha hoki maku i pena ai mehemea ehara i te mea hei painga mo etahi atu ? Paratene Ngata : Ko taku c tono ana kia paahitia te Pire nei mo oku whenua. 986. Henare Kaihau : A, he aha koe te tuku tono atu ai kite Pirimia kia unuhia te Pire nei ki waho o te Komiti, he mea Ida whakatikaia kia whai mana ai ki runga ki a koe anake ma ka paahitia. Te Tiamana : Xi taku mohio kua rahi ena tautohetohe. I haere mai hoki nga kai-whakahoki patai ki konei kite whakaatu i o ratou whakaaro mo te Pire nei. Eki ana tetahi kai-whakahoki patai kei te whakahe ia kite Pire nei me tana whakaatu hoki i nga take o tana whakahe a kei te whakaatu tenei kai-whakahoki patai i ana whakaaro me tana ki kei te hapai ia i te Pire nei. Xi taku, kaore c hangai ana enei kupu patai i ana whakaaro mo te Pire nei ki nga take c kimihia ana, a me whakamutu. Henare Kaihau : Ac; engari c kimi ana ahau ite take i whakahe ai etahi kite Pire, i hapai ai etahi. Xi taku mahara c tino hangai katoa ana kite Pire nga take c pataia atu nei he ahau ki te kai-whakahoki patai. E ki ana ahau, mehemea c kore c taea te whakaatu mai c tae ana kite aha te nui o nga moni c pau kite whakahaerea te Pire nei ki runga ki nga whenua, me pehea c mohio ai nga Maori mehemea he painga tena mo ratou kaore ranei. Me pehea c mohio ai ratou kite roa c tatari ai ratou kia whiwhi ai ite painga i runga ite whenua, mehemea c kore ratou c mohio kite nui o nga moni c pau mo runga i nga whakahaerenga ote tuatahi ? Kua kitea c tatou c tae ana te utu mo te mahi ruri me era atu mea i raro ito naianei tikanga kite Is. 6d. mo te eka, engari kaore i kitea c tatou he aha ranei te utu mo te eka mo nga rori. Heoi ra, ka peneitia te haere o aku korero : Mehemea tena ano he awa kei roto ite 10,000 eka ra, a kite hanga he piriti nui mo te awa, aka tae kite £10,000 te utu a whiti atu ki tera taha ote awa he mea kia tika ai te whenua mo te whakanohonoho kite tangata, tena, c hia nga moni o taua £10,000 ra ka whakataua ki runga kite 10,000 eka'? Aianei pea ka waiho kia tau taua moni katoa ki runga ki taua poraka, penei ka rite tena kite £1 mo te eka—a tae ana te huihuinga o nga moni kite £1 Is. 6d. mo te eka. Na, kite riro inaianei ma te Poari c whakahaere te whenua, me puta mai te inatereti mo aua moni ihea? Te Tiamana :Epa ke ana enei korero kite Pire, c hara ena ite patai atu kite kai-whakahoki patai. E mea ana ahau me tahuri a Henare Kaihau inaianei kite patai i ana patai, taihoa ake nei matou whiwhi ai i ana whakaaro c whakaputa ai. Henare Kaihau : Ac ; koia tena taku c whakamarama ai. Kua kiia etc kai-whakahoki patai he tangata mohio rawa atu ia, kua whai whakaaro, kua waia ki nga mahi katoa, a kite tonoa kia

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whakamaramatia mai cia nga tikanga ote Pire ko reira matou te mohio ai kite wahi c kinitia ana c te puutu, a kaore rawa ia c mohio ana ki nga tikanga o te Pire. Hon. Timi Kara : He mea tika me marama te titiro i te Pire, me marama hoki nga patai kia marama ai hoki nga whakautu mai. Henare Kaihau: Xi taku whakaaro he marama rawa taku patai. Xi taku whakaaro c kore c taea te neke ake o te maramatanga. Paratene Ngata : E pai ana, ko taku whakahoki tenei mo te whai korero a Henare Kaihau. Te Tiamana : Kaore matou c mea ana kia whakahokia mai te whai korero a Henare Kaihau. E mea ana matou me patai a Henare Kaihau i tana patai, ame whakahoki c koe. E kore c tukua c au kia haere tonu tenei tv mahi. 987. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra, ka hoki whakamuri au ki tenei: kua oti eau te tuhi he Is. 6d. te utu mo te eka mo te mahi ruri poraka whenua me etahi atu mea, a, c ki ana koe kaore koe c mohio ana kite utu mo te mahi rori tena, ka taea c koe te whakaatu mai ite taunga ote utu mo te piriti ? Mehemea he £10,000 te utu mo te piriti, pehea te nui o aua moni ka whakataua ki runga kite 10,000 eka ra? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au c mohio, i te mea hoki hei painga mo te katoa taua piriti, ehara i te mea hei painga mo te poraka anake itu ai taua piriti. Mehemea i whakataua te moni ki runga ki taua poraka c marama noa ana nga whika. Mehemea he £10,000 mo te piriti, he 10,000 nga eka, heoi ka rite te utu na kite £1 mo te eka, engari koi nei taku kupu whakahoki tenei hei painga nui taua piriti mo nga whenua katoa c tata ana ki taua piriti. E kore c roa ka ea nga utu ote piriti i te nekehanga ake o te utu mo te whenua. , 988. Henare Kaihau : Ac, ac; taihoa c whai atu i tena. Waiho ake tena, engari me whai tonu ite patai mo te 10,000 eka. E hia moni c pau mo te mahi whakahaere ate Poari kite whakahaere riihi, mo etahi atu mea hoki i runga i te 10,000 eka ra? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au c mohio, engari ki taku, tera c iti iho i to mua tikanga. 989. Henare Kaihau : Xi te riro ma te Poari te whenua nei c whakahaere a ka nama c te Poari nga moni c £200,000, ma wai c utu te inatereti ? Paratene Ngata :Xi taku mohio, kaore tena i whakaurua ki roto kite Pire : c mutu mai ana i te £5,000 ke te moni c taea te nama. 990. Henare Kaihau : Xi taku mahara i whakahuatia ano te £200,000 i roto i te Pire, engari i whakahokia iho kite £5,000 :a, ma wai c utu ite inatereti, c hia nga moni mo te inatereti? Paratene Ngata: Xi taku mahara, i kiia i roto ite Pire he £5, te utu mo te inatereti. 991. Henare Kaihau : E hia te moni "mo te inatereti mo te 10,000 eka? Paratene Ngata : E taea noatia tena te whakahoki atu. E £250 mo te 10,000 eka. 992. Henare Kaihau : E hia mo te eka? Paratene Ngata : Kaati, ko koe hei tuhi i te kaute. 993. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au c pai kia tirohia c koe aku kaute c tuhi ai, engari mau tonu c whakahoki mai taku i patai ai ? Paratene Ngata : He 6d. mo te eka. 994. Henare Kaihau : A hui atu tena kite Is. 6d. ra ka 2s. ai hereni ? Paratene Ngata : Me whahahoki atu au i tena ? 995. Henare Kaihau : Ac? Paratene Ngata: E utua ana eau te inatereti £10 te £8 te £7 i roto te £100. 996. Henare Kaihau :A i mua, ite tukunga o nga whenua nei kite reti, ka 2s. c pau mo te eka mo enei raruraru: kei te pena te ritenga ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore, c utua ana he inatereti mo runga i nga moni nama anake. I utua tonutia nga utu ruri, c kore ena c tau hei nama ki runga kite whenua. 997. Henare Kaihau : Ka taea ranei c koe te whai kupu mai mo nga rahui mo nga kura Maori i roto i tetahi poraka ? Ka taea ranei c koe te ki he aha te utu mo te eka mo era l roto ite 10,000 eka? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au c mohio. Kei te koroni ke te tikanga mo era. 998. Henare Kaihau : Heoi, c kore c taea c koe te whakahoki mai i te patai nei ? Paratene Ngata: Na reira au i raruraru ai. Ka toru ka wha o patai pena mai : ahakoa kua kiia ano c au " Kaore," a me tuarua atu ano c au te kupu na ? 999. Henare Kaihau : Kaore i whakahokia mai c koe, ehara rawa tau i te kupu whakahoki mai mo taku patai ? Paratene Ngata : Aua hoki. 1000. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ha o mohiotanga kite Pire nei ? Paratene Ngata : He nui taku mohiotanga. 1001. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ha o mohiotanga ki nga tikanga o te Pire nei ? Paratene Ngata : E mohio katoa ana ahau. 1002. Henare Kaihau : Ahe aha koe te ahei ai te whakahoki mai i te kupu patai ngawari penei me tenei. Paratene Ngata : Notemea kaore he kupu pera i roto ite Pire. Kaore he kupu i roto ite Pire hei whakaatu i te utu mo te eka mo nga mahi whakahaere. 1003. Henare Kaihau: Engari kei roto ito whai-korero ite aroaro ote Komiti. Hon. Timi Kara : Kaore ; engari te wehenga whenua hei rahui mo nga kura. Henare Kaihau: Ko tetahi tonu tena oa te Poari mahi, ame whai moni ratou c taea ai. Hon. Timi Kara: Ehara te Poari ite kai-whakahaere o te mahi ote Tari Whakahaere i nga Tikanga mo nga Kura. Paratene Ngata : Kua uru nga mea ki roto ki nga tekiona hou me nga menamena. 1004. Henare Kaihau : A tena he patai tenei mo tetahi atu mea. E hiahia ana ahau kia whakaaturia mai c te kai-whakahoki patai, c hia nga tau c taea ai c te Poari te whakahoki mai nga moni i whakapaua tuatahitia. Kua whakaaetia c koe te 2s. mo te eka, a tena ano etahi mea ke atu kaore i

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mohiotia c koe te peheatanga ranei ote utu. Me ki tatou hei kupu whakarite mo tenei korero i tae te taimahatanga i eke ki runga kite whenua kite ss. mo te eka. Me ki kua paahi te whenua i runga. ite mahi whakahaere ate Poari, a i tae te utu kite ss. mo te eka, hui atu ki nga utu mo nga whakawakanga mo te mahi ruri me etahi atu raruraru hoki, c hia nga tau c whakahaerea ana i raro ite Poari ka ea ai nga moni nama me te inatereti, ka puta atu ai he painga ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua i runga ite mahi whakahaere ate Poari? Me ki au kia tekau nga tau? Paratene Ngata : Kaore : Kaua c whakahuatia he tau; ko te mahi mau he patai ko te mahi maku he utu atu. 1005. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra, utua mai? Paratene Ngata: Tena, me ata noho koe, kaua c korero, maku c whakahoki atu. Mo etahi whenua kotahi te tau ka puta te moni, ko etahi c tae pea kite rua nga tau. Kei te penei te ahua— ko etahi whenua ko te mahi anake a te Poari he tuku mo te riihi—ko etahi me wawahi rawa c te Poari ka tukaa ai mo te riihi. A tena ano c puritia etahi o nga moni etc Poari hei utu ite mahi whakahaere, ko te toenga ka utua atu tena ki nga Maori. Heoi ano. 1006. Henare Kaihau: Kaore tena ite marama. He kupu whakarite taku mo tetahi keehi c nama ai te Poari ite moni c rite ana kite £5 mo te eka me te moni inatereti ano hoki, c hiahia ana ahau kia whakahokia mai. E mea nga moni ite tau mo te mahi whakahaere, c mea nga utu mo te inatereti, c mea nga moni c puritia i ia tau, i ia tau, hei whakaea i te moni nama me te inatereti ko te toenga me utu atu ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua, c hia nga tau c pau ka taeaai? Paratene Ngata : Ko taku utu atu tenei ka hoki ano he moni i te tau tuatahi, notemea kua oti ra ano nga moni mo te ruri me nga moni m» te Kooti te utu, heoi kau te mahi ma te Poari he whakahaere i nga tikanga tuku riihi. Ka puta atu te moni ki nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua i taua tau tonu ano. 1007. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana koe kua oti ano nga moni mo te ruri me nga moni mo te Kooti te utu, na wai aua moni i utu ? Paratene Ngata : Na matou ano i mua noa atu. 1008. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au c patai ana mo ena whenua. Tena ano he whenua kei te takoto tarewa nei i runga nga moni utu ruri me nga reiti—e korero ke ana ahau mo aua tv whenua ? Paratene Ngata : E korero ana ahau mo aku whenua. Na reira i tino marama rawa ai aku kupu whakahoki, kaore aku korero mo nga whenua o nga tangata ke. 1009. Henare Kaihau : Kaore c taea c koe te whakahoki mai ? Paratene Ngata : Kua whakahokia atu c ahau. 1010. Henare Kaihau : Heoi kau nga kupu whakahoki mai c taea c koe mo ou whenua anake, kaore mo nga whenua o era atu tangata. Ame pehea ra c mohio ai matou kite peheatanga o nga painga c puta mai i raro ite Pire nei kite nuinga o nga tangata kite kore c taea c koe te whakamarama mai ? Paratene Ngata : Kua oti iau nga whakamarama kite Komiti, ko etahi o enei patai au kaore c marama ana ki ahau, me taku mohio kaore hoki te Komiti i te marama. 1011. Henare Kaihau :Xi a hia nga tekau tau ote whenua nei kite Poari ka hoki mai ai ki nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au ite mohio. Heoi taku i mohio ai ko nga kupu i roto ite Pire mo nga moni nama. 1012. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana koe, kaore koe c mohio ana ? Paratene Ngata : Taihoa ; ko te taima i whakaritea i roto i te Pire mo te moni nama c whatekau ma rua nga tau. Heoi kau nga kupu i roto ite Pire mo tena. 1013. Henare Kaihau: Kaore au c patai atu ana ki a koe mo tena, engari c hia nga tau c takoto ana te whenua i te ringa o te Poari ka hoki atu ai ki nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua. Kei te mohio koe kaore ranei koe ite mohio ? Kaore koe ite mohio ? Paratene Ngata: Kei te mohio ano ahau. I kiia atu ano c ahau kite Komiti ki taku whakaaro kia tae kite wa c eke ai te Maori kite matauranga ote Pakeha, hei reira, ma ratou ano o ratou mea c whakahaere. 1014. Henare Kaihau : Na, c pai ana, mo koutou tena. E hoki mai ranei nga whenua ki a koutou uri, ka puritia tonutia ranei c te Poari ? Paratene Ngata : Ka tuturu nga whenua ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua a tae atu ki nga whakatupuranga; engari ma te Poari c whakahaere aua whenua —ara c mahi. 1015. Henare Kaihau : A, katahi hoki koe ka mohio ka hoki ano nga whenua ? Paratene Ngata : E ki ana ahau ka tuturu tonu nga whenua ki nga Maori tae atu ki o ratou whakatupuranga c haere ake nei: engari ko te whakahaere, ma te Poari tena. 1016. Henare Kaihau : Kia hia nga tau ote whenua nei kite Poari ka hoki mai ai te whenua ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua ? Paratene Ngata: Kua utua atu ano eau tena patai. 1017. Henare Kaihau: Xi taku titiro, kaore koe c mohio ana? Paratene Ngata: Kua utua atu ano eau tena patai. 1018. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra, c kore c taea c koe te ki, ka hoki ranei, c kore ranei c hoki? Paratene Ngata : E anini ana toku matenga i enei tv patai. Katahi ano au ka rongo patai penei. 1019. Henare Kaihau: E mea ana ahau kia whakahokia-mai te patai nei. Tena ano ranei he kupu kei roto i te Pire hei whakaatu c hia ranei nga tau c pau ka hoki atu ai te whenua ki nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua? Paratene Ngata : Kua whakahokia atu ano eau tena patai. Ka tuturu te whenua ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua, engari ko te whakahaere ma te Poari tena. 1020. Henare Kaihau : E hia nga tau c mana ai te whakahaere a te Poari ka hoki ai te whenua ki nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua ? Paratene Ngata: Kaore au c mohio ki tena.

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1021. Henare Kaihau: Heoi ra kaore he kupu i roto ite Pire hei whakaatu—ranei kite kotahi rau tau ka hoki ai, c kore rawa ranei c hoki ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au c kite ana i te kupu pera i roto i te Pire ; engari c kite ana au i roto i to Pire c mea ana koe kia riro nga whenua Maori katoa ki raro i te mana o te Kaunihera Maori. 1022. Henare Kaihau : Kaore aku kupu patai atu ki a koe mo taku Pire ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ; c mohio ana ano ahau ki tena. He kupu whakaatu tenei naku. 1023. Henare Kaihau: Me kaua koe c korero mo tena, engari me tahuri koe kite whakahoki mai i nga patai mo te Pire c takoto nei ite aroaro ote Komiti. Kia tae taku Pire kite aroaro ote Komiti ka ahei koe te korero mo taua Pire, mehemea kei konei ano koe? Paratene Ngata : Ac ra ; engari c rite ana o patai ki to Pire. 1024. Henare Kaihau: E patai ana ahau mehemea ka tekau nga tau he rau ranei nga tau c pau ka hoki atu ai te whenua ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua, a c kore koe c mohio ? Paratene Ngata : I ki au kaore au i mohio, i ki hoki au c tonoa ana i roto i to Pire kia riro nga whenua Maori katoa ki raro i te mana o te Kaunihera Maori. 1025. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra, kaore koe ite mohio. Na, ka patai atu nei c ahau ki a koe, me pehea c mohio ai nga Maori te titiro atu, kite kore ratou c mohio kite roa o te taima c pau ka hoki atu ai nga whenua ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua, a mehemea ranei hei painga mo ratou tenei Pire kaore ranei ? Paratene Ngata : Ko au me toku iwi c mohio ana hei painga mo matou te Pire nei. E kite ana toku iwi me nga tangata c tautoko tahi nei me matou i te Pire nei hei painga tenei Pire mo matou. Kua tukua mai c etahi tangata o etahi atu wahi a ratou whakahe mo te Pire nei. 1026. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i patai atu ki a koe mo tena ? Paratene Ngata : Paahitia te Pire nei mo matou me to matou takiwa, kei te penei taku tonu, i te mea kua ara mai nga whakahe a nga tangata o etahi atu wahi o te motu nei. 1027. Henare Kaihau : Me pehea c marama ai to iwi ki nga tikanga o te Pire nei, ma hoki kaore koe c maram* ana ? Paratene Ngata : E mohio katoa ana ahau kite Pire nei me toku iwi hoki; engari mo o kupu patai mai mo te moni me etahi atu mea, me tatari koe, a maku c tuhi nga whika ka oti ka tuku atu ai i te whakaatu ki a koe. 1028. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana koe kaore koe i te mohio c hia nga tau c pau ka hoki atu ai te whenua ki nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua, a c ki ana hoki koe mau c tuhi nga whika a ka whakaaturia mai c koe c hia nga tau c pau, me pehea ? Paratene Ngata : Hei aha maku tena. Kaore au c mohio. Ka taea eau te tuhi nga whika mo te utu mo te eka. E kore c taea c au te tuhi nga whika mo tera, notemea naku ano te whenua i naianei, ahakoa kua riro ma te Pakeha c whakahaere. Ate wa c eke ai ahau te Maori ki nga tihi o te matauranga o te Pakeha c ahei ai au kite whakahaere i aua whenua penei me te Pakeha c whakahaere nei i ana whenua, hei reira pai ai kia whakahokia mai te whenua ki oku unga. 1029. Henare Kaihau : Kei te pena te kupu i roto i te Pire ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore. 1030. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra ; nau ake tena whakaaro. Koi nei nga menemana i kiia nei c koe me whakauru ki roto kite Pire katahi ka whakaaetia c koe. Kei te pena te tikanga? Paratene Ngata : Naku i korero tenei kite Komiti. 1031. Henare Kaihau : Ac ; koia tena. E hiahia ana ahau kia takoto marama nau ake tenei whakaaro, engari kaore i kiia i roto i te Pire—tera, taihoa ka whakahokia atu te whenua ki nga Maori—c mea ana ahau kia noho mohio koe kaore te Pire i pena ? Paratene Ngata : Kei te mohio rawa ahau ki nga kupu o te Pire, engari he maha nga ture c paahitia ana c tenei Whare kaore i tuturu mo etahi tau maha i runga i te tikanga i paahitia ai, engari c whakatikatikaia tonutia ana. Ko taku c hiahia kia hopukia tonutia te huarahi c tuturu ai he oranga mo taku iwi. 1032. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ano au kia tae noa atu ki tena. Ko taku c hiahia nei kia whakamaramatia mai c koe me pehea c mau tonu ai te whenua ki a koe, kua riro ke na hoki te whakahaere ite Poari. Eki ana koe kei a koe te mana, he tikanga pehea tenei ite mea hoki kei te Poari te mana i runga ite whenua ? Ka taea nei hoki c te Poari te hoko, ka taea c te Poari te mokete, ka taea etc Poari te riihi ite whenua; a kei hea to mana c ki nei koe kei nga tangata no ratou te whenua te whenua c pupuri ana ? Paratene Ngata: Koia tonu tena, engari ko te whakahaere kei te Poari. Kei au te whenua kei aku tamariki i runga ite tikanga kai-riiwhi moku. Ehara te Poari i aku nei kai-riiwhi, aki te whai uri aku tamariki ka tau iho te whenua ki a ratou kaore kite Poari, heoi ra naku te whenua kaore kite Poari. 1033. Henare Kaihau : Xi te hokona c te Poari te whenua c kore c mau tonu te mana o o tamariki kite whenua. E kore c taea c koe te whakanoa i tena ? Paratene Ngata: He tikanga ke rawa tena, kei tetahi atu wahi o te Pire te kupu mo tena, c kiia nei c ahei ana te Poari te hoko i raro i nga tikanga o etahi atu Ture, me te ata whakahua ano i aua ture. 1034. Henare Kaihau.: Kaore koe i te whakahoki mai i taku patai, a ka patai tonu ahau a whakahokia ma ra ano c koe. Xi te hokona etc Poari te whenua ka whai mana tonu ranei o tamariki kite whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Heoi kau nga wahi c hokona c te Poari ko nga wahi anake c ahei ana kia hokona i raro i nga tikanga o etahi atu Ture. Na, ko nga moni c riro mai i runga ite hokonga o taua wahi whenua, ka whakahaerea ena hei whakapai i nga toenga o te whenua kaore nei i hokona. Naku te whenua i toe, ako te moni i riro mai mo te wahi i hokona maku tena taka atu ki aku tamariki.

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1035. Henare Kaihau : Na, ki taku kei te penei te hangai o au kupu mai, ara, ka riro atu te whenua i runga i te hoko, ko te moni ka riro atu tena i a koe tae atu ki o tamariki ? Paratene Ngata: Ac ; etahi wahi ote whenua, ehara ite mea ka riro katoa atu oku whenua, c koref.e riro katoa atu. 1036. Henare Kaihau : Katahi au ka marama. E whakaae ana koe, itehe to kupu whakahoki- mai i naianei, mehemea hoki kua hokona te whenua kua riro atu i runga i taua hoko, heoi c kore rawa c hoki mai ano ki a koe ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore; ko te wahi i riro ka riro atu, ko te wahi i toe ka toe mai ano. Te tikanga o tenei Pire he rahui he tiaki i nga whenua Maori. Heoi kau nga tikanga kua takoto, he riihi he hoko i etahi wahi iti i runga i etahi tikanga. 1037. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra, kei te mohio tuturu koe kei te tika tau—ara, kite riro te whenua i te Poari, a kite hokona c te Poari te whenua, kua kore rawa c hoki atu te whenua ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua ? E ki ana koe ka hokona te whenua ko te moni i riro mai i runga i taua hoko ka puritia tena mo koutou ko au tamariki —engari ko te whenua kua riro rawa atu tena — ko te moni ia ka puritia tena i te wa o te hoko ma nga tangata no ratou te whenua? Paratene Ngata : Na wai ena korero c whakahuatia nei c koe ? 1038. Henare Kaihau : Nau? Paratene Ngata : Kua korerotia eau aku korero ako koe kei te whakohoki mai ite patai. Ka tono au kia tuhia, na Henare Kaihau ke te whakahoki ehara i au. 1039. Henare Kaihau : Kaore c taea ana c koe te whakahoki mai, no reira i whakamaramatia ai c ahau te tikanga o taku patai ? Paratene Ngata : Kua oti i an te whakahoki atu. 1040. Henare Kaihau : Kiia mai, ac, kaore ranei—kia tika tonu te whakahoki mai. Paratene Ngata : Kua oti ano te whakahoki atu; engari ka whakahokia atu ano. Eki ana ahau, i raro i etahi tikanga, i raro i te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui a te Koroni, ka ahei te Poari kite hoko i etahi wahi o te whenua, engari ia ko te tino tikanga ia o te Pire he rahui i nga whenua kia kore ai c ngaro atu i nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua. Heoi kau te» mea c puare ana he whakarite mo etahi mea c taea te mahi i raro ite Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui ote Koroni. Ara, ko te nuinga o oku whenua ka toe mai ki a matou ko oku tamariki, a ko toku hea o nga moni mo te piihi c hokona, ma aku tamariki tena. A ahakoa ka kore c paahitia, ka mau tonu te mana ote Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni. 1041. Henare Kaihau: Me whakaatu atu c ahau kite Komiti kei te moumou noa te kaiwhakahoki patai i taku patai; c tohe tonu ana ia kite korero mo nga mea kaore i pataia atu c ahau. He aha te tikanga o te kupu i ki nei koe i whakatakotoria te Pire nei hei rahui i te whenua mo nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua? Kaore koia i pena to korero? A, ahakoa tena, kei te takoto ano he ritenga i roto i te Pire c ahei ai te Poari kite hoko whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Heoi kau nga wahi c taea ana te hoko ko nga wahi c ahei ana kia tangohia i raro i nga tikanga o te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, a ka whakahaerea nga moni i puta mai i runga i aua hoko hei painga mo nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua ano kaore i hokona aua wahi. I a koe eki nei, kaore au ite mohio, he kupu whakaiti tena moku. Tirohia nga tekiona ote Pire. Kaua koe c tawai mai ki au, engari me titiro ke koe kite 19 o nga tekiona ote Pire, me te titiro hoki ki nga kupu kua takoto i reira. 1042. Henare Kaihau : Kaore aku patai atu ki a koe mo taua tekiona; I patai atu ahau mehemea i rahuitia te whenua. Iki koe i paahitia te Pire hei rahui i nga whenua kia kaua c hokona, engari kei te whai mana ano te Poari kite whakahaere hoko ? Paratene Ngata: Epa ana anake tenei ki nga whenua c whakahuatia ana i roto i taua tekiona. 1043. Henare Kaihau : Me tohitu tonu to whakahoki mai i taku patai. Mehemea tena ano he mana i raro i te Pire nei c taea ai te hoki hoko te whenua, heoi ra kei te he tau c ki nei, he Pire tenei hei rahui i nga whenua kia kaua c hokona ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ; kei roto i te Pire. 1044. Henare Kaihau : Xi te hokona te whenua, me pehea ? Paratene Ngata : Ka whakahaerea nga moni c riro mai mo te whenua i hokona hei whakaneke ake i te utu o nga wahi i toe mai, ma reira ka tino whiwhi ai nga tangata no ratou te whenua i hokona kite painga whai tikanga. He painga nui rawa. 1045. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, ehara ite rahui? Ko te tikanga o tena mea ote rahui c kore rawa c taea te hoko, engari ka taea te riihi; tena ko tenei c tuwhera ana te hoko i raro ite Pire nei. Hon. Timi Kara : I runga anake i etahi tikanga, kua takoto marama tena i roto i te Pire. 1046. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, kaore te kai whakahoki patai ite mohio kite tikanga o taua mea ? Paratene Ngata : Kei te mohio ano au, ko te take hoki tena i hapai ai au i te Pire nei, a i pai ai hoki matou ko taku iwi kia whakahaerea te Pire nei ki roto i to matou takiwa. Henare Kaihau: Xi to mohio he maha ake ranei nga painga c pa ki to takiwa kite whakahaerea te Pire ki reira ? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Maku c ata whakamarama atu. Xi te whakahaerea te Pire nei i roto i to matou takiwa, kua kore nga tangata o reira c taimaha i nga mahi whakahaere a nga Kooti. Ma matou ano o matou whenua c whakahaere. Kei te 500,000 eka tae atu ite 1,000,000 eka nga whenua papatupu o toku takiwa, a ma tenei Pire ka taea ai nga whenua watea te whakahaere i runga i tetahi tikanga c puta ai he painga. Tetahi tikanga nui hoki he whakamutu ite hoko, otiia, kaore he rori i roto i toku takiwa. 1048. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ano ranei ? Paratene Ngata : Tena ano etahi atu mea, engari ko ena nga mea tino whai tikanga. 1049. Henare Kaihau : I kiia ana koia i roto i te Pire, tera ka whakaturia he komiti? Paratene Ngata : Kei roto i a matou menamena, kua korerotia hoki c au kite Komiti. 1050. Henare Kaihau : Engari, kaore i roto i te Pire, nei ?

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Paratene Ngata : Kaore. Ko tetahi atu ano tena o nga mea c hiahia ana matou kia whakaurua ki roto kite Pire. 1051. Henare Kaihau: Tena, kite kore te Pirimia c whakaae kite whakauru i taua kupu ki roto kite Pire, c whakaae ranei koe ki taua Pire ? Te Tiamana : Kua oti tena te patai atu kite kai-whakahoki patai, i tohitu tana whakahoki mai. Kaore he take c whakahokia mai ai ano c ia. 1052. Henare Kaihau : Tena, mehemea tera ano he whenua 10,000 nga eka i roto, kotahi rau nga tangata nona, a me ki tatou a te paunga o nga tau c wha-tekau kua neke te tokomaha o nga uri kite kotahi mano, kei hea he whenua hei oranga mo ratou, kua riro ke nei ma te Poari te whenua c whakahaere? Me pehea c taea ai etc Poari te whakarite he whenua mo enei tangata? I roto i enei tau kua whakapakehatia ratou, kei te mohio ratou ki nga mea katoa penei me ta te Pakeha mohio. Kaore hoki i whakaritea he wa i roto ite Pire c hoki atu ai te whenua ki a ratou. Kei te penei ha te tikanga ? Paratene Ngata : E whakaritea ana i raro i tenei Pire, me wehewehe te whenua ki ia tangata ki ia tangata o nga Maori no ratou te whenua, a ma te Poari c whakahaere etahi wahi o enei whenua. A, kite tokomaha haere nga tangata, ka pau nga tau o nga riihi, kite tika kia pera ka whakahokia atu etahi o aua whenua i riihitia ra hei kainga nohoanga mo nga tangata i neke ake nei te tokomaha, penei me enei i whakahuatia i roto i te patai nei. 1053. Henare Kaihau : Koia tonu taku c whai nei i roto i taku patai. I pataia atu c ahau ki a koe i te tuatahi, c hia nga tau c pau ka mutu te whakahaere a te Poari ka hoki mai ai te whenua ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua. Na, eki nei koe ka hoki mai ano etahi wahi ote whenua ki a ratou, aka mahia hei painga mo nga tangata kua neke ake nei te tokomaha. I au i patai atu ki a koe i mua, ko ahea hoki mai ai, kaore i taea c koe te whakaatu mai, ka taea ranei c koe te whakaatu mai i naianei ? Paratene Ngata : Kua whakahokia atu nei eau taua patai. Kua takoto i roto ite ture me ruatekau ma tahi nga tau o te riihi, me rua tekau ma tahi hoki nga tau o te whakaaroanga atu o te riihi. A tenei taku kupu mo nga whenua kua wehea hei whenua riihi, kite tika, i te mea kua tokomaha haere nga tangata, kia whakaritea kia nui ake etahi whenua hei wahi nohoanga mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua, ka tika ma ka mutu nga tau 6 tetahi o nga riihi nei kia wehea tetahi wahi o te whenua hei wahi nohoanga mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 1054. Henare Kaihau : Kaore i takoto he kupu pera i roto ite Pire. Kaore kau ate Pire korero mo tena ? Paratene Ngata : Kua oti i te Pire nga tikanga mo naianei.

Weneeei, 26 Oketopa, 1898. Paeatene Ngata : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 1055. Henare Kaihau : Toku hiahia kia mohio ano koe kaore tahi he kupu kei roto i te Pire c mea ana ka taea nga whenua c noho riihi ana te hoatu ano ki nga tangata nona, pera me tau i mea ake ra i nanahi ? Paratene Ngata ; Kaore ra i roto i te Pire, notemea ko nga tangata mo ratou o patai, kaore ano kia whanau noa. Kei te taenga ra ki aua whakatupuranga c kiia na c koe, ka taea ano a taua wa te hanga etahi menemana kite ture c ahei ana hei whakarite i taua mea. 1056. Henare Kaihau : Ac ; engari ra kaore c taea c tatou te whakawhanau mai ano nga whenua kua oti ke rate hoko, te riihi hoki, te aha atu ranei c te Poari ? Paratene Ngata : Ko tenei Pire c whakahaere ana i tetahi tikanga hei rahui i nga whenua Maori. B rahui ana i nga whenua kia tuwhera mo te riihi anake, aki te kitea, a tetahi wa, kei te hiahiatia etahi o aua whenua hei oranga mo nga Maori, heoi he mea tika, a te paunga o nga tau o nga riihi, kia wehea etahi o aua whenua mo tena tikanga, otira kaore ano tatou kia tae noa ki nga ra hei maharatanga penatanga. 1057. Henare Kaihau : Taku mahara kaore koe ite whakahoki tika mai i taku patai. Ko to ahua me te mea nei kaore koe ite mohio c kaore tahi he kupu rahui whenua kei roto ite Pire. B tino hoatu nga whenua ki roto kite ringaringa ote Poari, hei whakahaere ki tana i pai ai. Kei te tohe tonu koe ki tau ki, c rahui ana ano te Pire i nga whenua, a te tukunga iho ka hoki ano ki nga tangata nona. Toku whakaaro tuturu tenei kaore rawa he tikanga o te hoatu patai ki a koe mehemea ka tohe tonu koe kite huri ke i te tikanga o nga patai ki a koe. Tiaki Tiwini : Taku mahara me whakaatu ake au ki a Henare Kaihau, he rarangi ano kei te Pire mo te rahui, notemea c ki ana i reira kia rahuitia te katoa o te 5,000,000 (rima miriona) eka c toe ana ki nga Maori o tenei koroni. Henare Kaihau : E tika ana tena; engari kaore c rahui ana ite whenua ki a ratou Maori ano hei mahi, hei aha atu ranei ma ratou. B rahui kau ana mo te riihi me etahi atu tikanga. Tiaki Tiwini: Ac, engari epa ana tena ki nga wahi kei waho i nga wahi c hiahiatia ana hei nohoanga mo ratou. 1058. Henare Kaihau : Ac, engari kua whakaarohia c au taku c tohe nei au, a koia tenei. Mehemea kotahi rau tangata o tetahi poraka, a kei te wa c tv ai taua Poari, kite whakahaere i taua whenua, a ka tapahia ki waho o taua whenua tetahi wahi hei mahinga hei oranga hoki mo taua rau tangata, tena me ki c tatou i muri mai o te pahuretanga o nga tau c wha tekau kua nuku rawa ake te tokomaha o nga tangata o taua whenua, heoi ko te whenua i wehea ra ki waho mo ratou, kua kitea c kore c rato mo ratou kua piki ke ake nei to ratou tokomahatanga, tena ka pehea? Paratene Ngata : Kua utua noatia atu eau ena patai. I mahara au kaore tahi koe c patai ana mo te Pire, engari mo etahi mea ke c whakaarohia ana tera pea taihoa ka pa mai. 13—1. 3a.

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1059. Henare Kaihau : Engari kia mohio ano ra koe kei te maha noa atu nga mea hei whakaatu tuturu i roto i nga whakatupuranga o tenei hanga o te tangata kua hori ake nei, penei na c, ka rupeke atu era tangata nona te oneone kite mate ka tv mai ano ko etahi ano hei whakakapi mo ratou. No kona ka tika taku patai i a koe mo nga whakatupuranga c haere mai nei ; kaore 'koia i te pena ? Paratene Ngata: Kaore ano tatou i tae noa kite wa c ahei ai tatou kite hurihuri i tena patai. 1060. Henare Kaihau: Tena me pehea tatou c mohio ai he tikanga pai tenei mo nga wa c takoto ake nei ? Paratene Ngata : Ma tenei Pire c tiaki nga whenua mo nga mea c puta mai ana a nga ra c haere ake nei c whakahuaina ake nei hoki c taua. 1061. Henare Kaihau: E kore koia c pai kite tuku i nga Maori ki raro i te mana rite kite Pakeha mo o ratou whenua, kia pena ano me nga tikanga c whakahaerea nei mo o te Pakeha whenua, mo te hoko, mo te aha atu ranei o ratou whenua ? Paratene Ngata: Ac; mo runga i etahi ahua whenua; engari tera ano etahi ahua whenua, c kore rawa c tika kia wehea te piihi mo tena mo tena o nga tangata o te whenua, notemea c kore rawa c kore te puta mai o te mate ki a ratou. Tetahi mea ano, mehemea ka hoatu katoa kite Maori te mana whakahaere i ona whenua ki tana i pai ai, kaati, c hoatu ana tena i tetahi tikanga hei whakapau katoa mana i ona whenua, no reira c kore c tika kia hoatu ki a ia te mana pena me te Pakeha. 1062. Henare Kaihau : Toku mahara kaore tahi he tikanga mo tena korero. Xi toku whakaaro, he iwi mohio te Maori kite tiaki i o ona whenua. Mehemea ka titiro whakamuri tatou, ka kite tatou, ko te putake mai tena o nga whawhai maha i tenei koroni, he tohe no nga Maori kite pupuri i o ratou whenua ? Paratene Ngata : Koia tena ; engari hei tawari i tena, me mohio ano hoki koe he iwi moumou te Maori. To ratou hiahia c rukeruke noa atu ite moni ki tini wahi, ki tini wahi noa atu, a kei te wa c pirangi ai ratou ki tetahi moni mo tetahi mea, kaore a ratou whakaaroaro kite tikanga c riro mai he moni ma ratou. 1063. Henare Kaihau: Engari ra kei te pena tonu ano hoki te Pakeha. Titiro ia na kite ahua o etahi Pakeha, he mano, he mano nei, a ratou pauna moni, mehemea ka timata ana, c kore rawa c roa ana ta ratou makamaka i aua moni na, kua pau? Paratene Ngata : Ac; engari c whiwhi ana te Pakeha ki etahi matauranga kaore i a tatou ite iwi Maori. 1064. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i te whakahe kite nuinga atu o te matauranga o te Pakeha i to te Maori, engari ka ki tonu ano au ko te Maori, i mua, tuku iho, a taea noatia tenei ra, c mohiotia tuturutia ana he iwi pupuri whenua ratou, ko te putake hoki tena o nga whawhai i nga wa o mua? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Ko etahi Maori tohe tonu ai kite pupuri i o ratou whenua, otiia ko ratou c hara i te hunga mamahi. 1065. Henare Kaihau : Me waiho c taua tena putake. Toku mahara i penei taku whakarongo atu ki a koe i tera rangi ra, i whakamutua c koe to mahi ateha i te mea kaore i rite te moni mau, c tika ana ranei tena ? Paratene Ngata: Ac; kaore i rite te moni maku, no kona ka mutu taku mahi. I mua £1 2s. 6d. te moni utu moku ite ra, no muri mai ka tangohia c te Kawanatanga te 2s. 6d. Heoi tonoa ana eau kia whakamutua au i taku mahi. E nui noatu ana ano aku ake mahi hei mahinga maku mo aku whenua me etahi mea, heoi kaore c taea c au te mahi, i au c mahi ateha ana, no reira mutu ana au. E whiwhi ana te Tiati i te £600 ite tau, me te kini £1 Is. ite ra moni apiti, a maua tokorua c mahi tonu ana i nga wa katoa, ko te take tena i whakarerea ai c au taua turanga. 1066. Henare Kaihau: E penei ana taku whakarongo atu ki a koe, i tangohia te 2s. 6d., a mehemea i mau tonu to utu i te £1 2s. 6d. i te ra, kua noho tonu ano koe i tau mahi ateha ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore. Ko te whakarerea ano eau taua mahi. I tono ano te Kawanatanga iau kia hoki, a mana c homai £1 ss. mo te ra. A mauria ana eau tena utu; kotahi tau oku c mahi ana, ka whakarerea ano c au, hoki ana ano au kite mahi i aku ake mahi. 1067. Henare Kaihau: He aha te take i whakarerea ai c koe to mahi ito whiwhinga kite 2s. 6d. i te ra i runga atu i to utu o mua? Paratene Ngata : Notemea ka nui ke atu te painga c puta ki au i taku mahi moku ake i taku mahi Kooti. 1068. Henare Kaihau: Ehara ia nei ite mea kua kite koe kaore c nui te moni mau ito mahi ateha, i tino kaha ai to mahi kia pahi tenei Pire, kia whai nohoanga ai koe i te Poari, tera ka nui ke atu pea te utu i te mahi ateha ? Te Tiamana : Ehara tena ite patai c tika ana kia patairia. Kaore hoki c tata ana kite take c whiriwhiria nei c tatou. Paratene Ngata : E hiahia aua au kite utua i tena patai. Te Tiamana : Kaore au c pai kia utua. Kaore hoki au c whakaae kia pataia te patai. 1069. Henare Kaihau : I hua au he patai tika te patai, engari kite Tiamana me kaua c pataia, heoi ka unuhia c au. I penei taku whakarongo atu ki to korero ko to iwi ko Ngatiporou, he pononga piri pono katoa ratou ma te Kuini ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; he tika tonu ana tena. Ko tetahi wahanga o Ngatiporou i uru kite mahi hauhau, engari i whawhaitia, a riro herehere ana ratou, a oatitia ana ratou riro ana hoki hei hoia pono ma te Kuini, a taea noatia tenei ra c pera tonu ana to ratou ahua. I te tau 1865 ka whakatarea etahi haki a ko nga tangata i tomo ma raro i nga haki me te pupuri ano tena me tena. o ratou i te paipera ki tona ringa hei whakaae i to ratou oati pono kite Kuini, a i taua wa taea noatia tenei ra kei te v tonu ratou ki ta ratou oati.

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1070. Henare Kaihau : E korero ana ranei koe mo te tau 1865 ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; ara mo te taha kite wahanga o Ngatiporou i uru kite mahi hauhau ; otiia ko Ngatiporou tuturu katoa no mua mai ano no te manangamai ano o te Tiriti o Waitangi to ratou piri potto, a v tonu ratou ki raro i taua kawenata taea noatia tenei ra. Kaore ano ratou kia hapai te pu ki a te Kuini. 1071. Henare Kaihau : Kua rongo ano ranei koe ki tenei rangatira o Ngatiporou ki a Epa. Raima ? Paratene Ngata : Ac, kei te mohio au ki a ia. He whanaunga ia ki au. I haere ia ite mahi a te Kingi ki Waikato. 1072. Henare Kaihau: Kaore koe i rongo, i tautoko ano ia i te mahi whakahaere ki tv he Kingi—ko Potatau ranei ko Tawhiao ranei ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; c mohio ana au ki a ia. I patua ia ki reira iaia c whawhai ana mo te Kingi. 1073. Henare Kaihau : Heoi i ki nei koe i naia tonu ake nei, he tangata piri pono katoa ratou no te Kuini, a tenei kua kitea c tatou he tokomaha noa atu kaore i piri pono ? Paratene Ngata : Kua utua noatia atu eau tena. Kua korero ake ra au mo tetahi wahanga o Ngatiporou i uru kite mahi hauhau, me te hunga tangata i haere ra i tena ara pohehe me ta ratou tikanga porangi whakatu Kingi. 1074. Henare Kaihau : Kaore koe i rongo i whakahaerea c tetahi rangatira o Ngatiporou c kore c taea eia te whakaae kite mana o te Kuini kia homai ki runga ki a ratou. A i penei tana whakamarama ia. Kaore rawa c kitea c ia tetahi huarahi c taea ai te okiha raua ko te hoiho te ioka ngatahi, te take ka tahuri te okiha kite wero i te hoiho ki ona pihi, te hoiho ka tahuri kite whana i tona hoa i te okiha ? Paratene Ngata ; Ac, c mohio ana au ki tena. Ko te ingoa o taua tangata nana taua kupu ko Hapaira. I haere ia ki aua mahi porangi a mate ana ia i tetahi parekura i Tauranga. Engari kaore au i te korero mo aua tangata, engari mo Ngatiporou anake c ora nei. 1075. Henare Kaihau : E whakaatu ana au i enei mea, notemea i ki koe i te timatanga o to korero ko Ngatiporou i noho piri pono tonu kite Kuini, a kua whakaaturia ake ra c au korero ano kaore ratou i pena ? Paratene Ngata : Ko taku eki nei c tino pono ana. Ko aua tangata nei anake o Ngatiporou i uru ki nga mahi kuare porangi hoki, penei me te mahi hauhau me te mahi Kingi, na kona nei hoki i tau ai he raruraru ki a ratou. 1076. Henare Kaihau : No reira ra kaore c taea c Ngatiporou te ki kei te rereke to ratou ahua i etahi atu iwi. He tokomaha ano etahi atu iwi kihai i uru kite whawhai? Paratene Ngata : Kaore to ratou ahua i rite ki to Ngatiporou, i noho piri pono nei kite Kuini i te timatanga mai, otira nuku atu ano i tena, i te mea i hapai pu ratou hei tautoko i te mana o te Kuini hei turaki i te hauhau. 1077. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i patai kia koe mo tena. Ko taku patai hei whakaatu kau i uru ano tetahi wahanga o Ngatiporou ki nga mahi turaki i te mana o te Kuini? Paratene Ngata: Ko nga porangi anake ra pea i whai na i nga mahi porangi i mahia tuatahitia na ki Waikato. 1078. Henare Kaihau : Ko to take tena i mea ai koe kia tv tetahi Komihana hei whakahaere i nga mea a to hapu, na te tokomaha o te hunga porangi kei roto i a ratou nei? Paratene Ngata : E hiahia ana au kia paahitia tetahi tikanga, c aiki toku whakaaro, hei painga mo toku iwi; pena hoki me koe. Ko te Komihana ote Karauna te Kai-tiaki o koutou whenua i Opuatia kei Waikato. 1079. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au c patai ana mo aku mahi ? Paratene Ngata : Engari ra c utu ana hoki au i to patai. 1080. Henare Kaihau : E penei ana taku whakarongo atu ki a koe, c taunu ana koe c ki ana koe he mahi porangi nga mahi Kingi ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au iki he porangi te Kingi; i ki au ko te mahi hauhau, me te mahi whakahaere i raro i te Kingi, he mahi porangi. 1081. Henare Kaihau : E hiahia ana au kia tuhia ena kupu; ara, kaore te kai-korero c ki ana he porangi te Kingi, c whakahawea ana ranei kia ia. Kaati, ite mea kei te aroaro ote Whare tenei Pire, pehea tou hiahia mo taua Pire; me neke ranei ki tera tunga o te Paremete, me whakahaere tonu ranei i tenei Paremete ? Paratene Ngata : E hiahia ana au kia paahi te Pire i tenei wa tonu mo te taha ki toku takiwa o te Motu, me aha atu etahi takiwa. 1082. Henare Kaihau : E hara tena ite utu hangai. Ko te ahua ote Pire c takoto nei. Kaore i te ki, c me whai mana ki tou takiwa anake, engari mehemea ka paahi, kore rawa he whenua c mahue ki waho ? Paratene Ngata : E tono ana au kia whakahaerea, kia whai mana tenei Pire kite Tai Rawhiti. Kua tae atu aku korero kite Komiti mo tenei mea. 1083. Henare Kaihau : Tena i te mea he mea ke tau c hiahia nei, a he mea ke ano ta te Pirimia, me pehea to whakaripeneta i tou whakaaro kia rite ki tera ? E mea ana te Pirimia kia pa te Pire kite Motu katoa. E hiahia ana koe kia tau anake ki tou takiwa. Ka pehea ai tau whakariterite i tena? Paratene Ngata: Me whakaae tenei Komiti me te Whare, me te Pirimia kia paahitia tenei Pire kia mana ki toku takiwa, heoj ki toku mahara mehemea ka oti tena tera pea koe c tautoko ki taku. 1084. Henare Kaihau : Ac ; mehemea kei te pena. Tera au c pai. Engari mehemea ka kore ratou c whakaae, ka huhua noa atu nga mate c puta mai i runga i tau tono kia whakaaetia tenei Pire.

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Hon. Timi Kara: Kei nga Maori ano rate tikanga, ma ratou ano c whakaae, c kore ranei c whakaae te Pire kia mana ki to ratou takiwa. Te Tiamana : I whakaurua tenei Pire kite Whare i runga ano i te tono a nga Maori. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ta ratou i tono ai, ko te hoko whenua kia whakamutua. Hon. Timi Kara : Me matua whakaae ano ra ka mana ai te Pire, penei na, c kore c taea te whakahaere ki tetahi takiwa, engari me matua tono ra ano c nga Maori o taua takiwa katahi ka taea. Henare Kaihau : Engari ra c arai ana tenei Pire i a ratou kite whakahaere i o ratou whenua i runga ita ratou i pai ai. Pena taku titiro kite Pire. Hon. Timi Kara: Kaore c whakakore ana i te mana o nga ture c whai mana nei i naianei. Mehemea ka paahitia tenei Pire hei ture, heoi ma nga Maori c pirangi ana kia whakahaerea taua ture ki to.ratou takiwa c pitihana kite Kawana kia peratia, kite kore ratou c pai kia whakahaere ki to ratou takiwa, heoi ko nga ture ano c mana nei ka whakahaerea ki taua takiwa. 1085. Henare Kaihau : Kei te mohio ranei koe mehemea kei te tokomaha atu ano ranei etahi atu tangata o nga iwi o te Tai Rawhiti, i ko atu o tou ake, iwi, c whakaae ana ki tenei Pire ? Paratene Ngata : Ac; he nui noa atu ? 1086. Henare Kaihau : Ko nga tangata o c hea wahi ? Paratene Ngata: 0 roto i nga rohe ote Tai Rawhiti. 1087. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au ite patai mo nga rohe ote Tai Rawhiti. Ko taku c mea nei kia mohio au ko wai nga iwi i ko atu o tou, i roto i nga rohe o te Tai Hauauru, c whakaae ana kite Pire. Kei whea o ratou wahi ? Paratene Ngata : I hua au he utu poto taku utu i to patai, a kua ea to patai, heoi mehemea c hiahia ana koe kia korero katoatia c au tona ritenga he maha nga ra ka mutu ai taku whakautu. 1088. Henare Kaihau : E mea ana au kia whakaaturia mai c koe nga ingoa o etahi poraka kia rua kia toru ranei c whakaae ana ona tangata ki tenei Pire, kia marama pai ai matou ki nga eka o aua poraka. Kia ea ai taku patai ? Paratene Ngata : Kotahi te Poraka c taea c au te hoatu hei maramatanga mou, ko te ingoa ko Ngawaka-a-kupe, c tae ana kite 18,000 kite 30,000 eka. 1090. Henare Kaihau : Kua moketetia ranei? Paratene Ngata : Kaore. E araia ana tena etc ture. 1091. Henare Kaihau : Tena tetahi ano i ko atu i tena ? Paratene Ngata: Ko Tamaki Poraka me Tahoraiti Poraka c 57,000 eka, kei te Maori ano tena whenua. 1092. Henare Kaihau : Ko nga tangata ia nei ena nana nei nga menemana? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Kua hoatu c au a ratou menamana kite karaka ote Komiti, a kei te aroaro hoki o te Komiti. 1093. Henare Kaihau: He utu pai tena ki taku patai. Kaati ra, he whenua enei no nga tangata c tautoko ana i nga menemana. Kei whea nga tangata c tautoko ana ite Pire anake, haunga nga menemana ? Paratene Ngata : Kei roto i nga rohe o te Tai Rawhiti, me etahi ano kei roto i te rohe o te Tai Hauauru. 1094. Henare Kaihau : Ko wai ma ratou ? Paratene Ngata : Ko nga iwi o Patea, o Whanganui, timata atu i Parikino haere whaka-te-raki. 1095. Henare Kaihau : Ha, ko te hanga ra ena nana nei nga pitihana turaki i te Pire ? Paratene Ngata : He maha ano ra nga pitihana hapai i te Pire ? 1096. Henare Kaihau: E mea ana koia koe, he pitihana ano kei a koe a etahi o nga tangata o Whanganui me Taranaki c tautoko anai te Pire nei? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Kua tukua atu eau etahi kite Komiti. Kei te Pirimia etahi. 1097. Henare Kaihau: Akuanei pea tokowha, tokorima ranei, nga tangata na ratou aua pitihana i haina. Na wai nga pitihana o Patea me taua takiwa i tuku mai ki a koe ? Paratene Ngata : Na Utiku Potaka. 1098. Henare Kaihau : Kei Rangitikei ke tera ? Paratene Ngata : Ahakoa ; kei taua takiwa ano. 1099. Henare Kaihau : He tangata kotahi ra ia ? Paratene Ngata : Tera c pau te wiki mehemea c mea ana koe kia ata whakamaramatia atu nga tikanga katoa. I whakaaro ahau c patai mai ana koe mo nga rangatira kau. 1100. Henare Kaihau : Ko wai ma nga tangata o Whanganui kua haina i te pitihana nei ? Paratene Ngata : Ko Topia Turoa. Kei Poneke nei ia i naianei. 1101. Henare Kaihau : Kua tuku pitihana atu ia kite Whare? Paratene Ngata : Kei te ringa ote Pirimia te pitihana. Kei kona te nuinga o nga pitihana. He mea tuku mai ki au etahi, kite Pirimia etahi. Kei konei ta Turoa pitihana. Ko enei pitihana katoa he tautoko ite Pire. Kua oti nga pitihana a nga tangata o Wairarapa o Whanganui te tuku atu kite Komiti. Kei konei hoki te pitihana a nga tangata o Taranaki. 1102. Henare Kaihau : E hiahia ana ahau kite whakaatu atu kite Tiamana, ko te take i penei ai aku patai, tena ano etahi tangata i whakahuatia c ia he kai-tuku pitihana mai mo te tautoko i nga menamena hei whakaurunga ki roto kite Pire, a no to-ratou kitenga ka kore aua menamena c whakaurua ki roto kite Pire, ka haina ratou i te pitihana whakahe mo te Pire ? Te Tiamana : Kei te pena ano te tikanga ki nga Pakeha ano. Paratene Ngata: Ac ra; engari kua riro noa atu te pitihana i a ratou ite mea kaore ano kia mahia noatia nga menamena. Na etahi tangata tokorua tokotoru ranei i Poneke i mahi, a tukutukua ana i roto i te Motu nei kia hainatia, na te Piriinia'te whakaaro kia tukua atu kite Komiti ma te Komiti c titiro.

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1103. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana, kua tutuki tena ki taku c whai ana. Kaore ranei koe c kite ana kei te takahi te Pire nei i te Tiriti o Waitangi ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ; nau ke te Pire kei te takahi i te Tiriti o Waitangi. Te Tiamana : Kaua Paratene Ngata c whai kupu mo te Pire o Henare Kaihau. Henare Kaihau: E kore ranei te Tiamana c whakaae kia pataria atu eau kia toru nga patai mo taku Pire ? Te Tiamana : Kaore; c kore rawa au c whakaae kia korerotia taua Pire. 1104. Henare Kaihau (ki a Paratene Ngata): Eki ana koe kaore te Pire Poari i runga i tona tikanga c takoto nei i te whakahe atu kite Tiriti o Waitangi ? Paratene Ngata : Xi taku c mohio ai, kaore. Xi taku titiro kite Pire, ko te kupu mo te hoko whenua anake te kupu i roto i te Pire c rere ke ana i te Tiriti o Waitangi. 1105. Henare Kaihau : Xi to mahara, kei te tokomaha ake nga tangata o te Motu nei c tautoko ana i te Pire nei i nga kai-tautoko i te Tiriti o Waitangi? Paratene Ngata: Ko aura me toku iwi kei te tautoko ite Pire nei, aki taku i mohio ai ko koutou me etahi atu tangata o te Motu nei kei te whakahe atu; engari, ki taku whakaaro, kite paahitia te Pire nei, a ka kitea c ratou hei painga nui mo ratou, tena ano ratou c tahuri mai c homai i o ratou whenua kia whakahaerea i raro i te Pire nei. 1106. Henare Kaihau : Na te aha koe i mohio ai c ka uru katoa te iwi ki raro i te mana o te Pire a te wa c whakahaerea ai ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore au c ki ana ka pera katoa, engari ka pera etahi—ara, nga mea, c hiahia ana kia whakahaerea o ratou whenua. 1107. Henare Kaihau: Kaore ia nei koe ite mohio, ko te nuinga ote iwi i tenei wa, kaore i te whakaae kia riro ma te Kawanatanga c whakahaere o ratou whenua. Ko ta nga Maori c mea ana ma ia hapu ano c whakahaere ona whenua, i raro i nga mana i whakaaetia ana c te Kuini ki a ratou, ara, kia rite to ratou ahua ki nga Pakeha o tenei whenua c matau ana kite whakahaere i aua mahi? Kaore ia nei koe ite mohio koia nei te hiahia nui ote iwi puta noa te Motu nei ? Paratene Ngata: E tika ana pea, kei te pena pea te whakaaro o etahi. Kaore au ite mohio ki o ratou hiahia, engari kei te penei ta toku iwi whakaaro me taku c whakaatu nei. 1108. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ia nei koe c mohio ana ki tenei whakahaere kite Kotahitanga ? Kaore koe ite mohio c penei ana to ratou whakaaro me taku iki ake nei ? Kaore koe ite rongo, koia tera te whakaaro o ona mema, timata mai i Ngapuhi tae noa ki tera pito o te Motu nei? Kaore koe i te mohio ko te iwi c kiia nei c koe ko te iwi o te Kingi i Waikato, pera ano ta ratou whakaaro ? Paratene Ngata : I rongo au, a i haere a tinana tonu ano au ki a ratou hui kia mohio ai au ki ta ratou whakahaere; heoi kaore au i kite i tetahi tikanga marama i roto ita ratou whakahaere. No reira au me taku iwi, tae atu ki o matou whenua, i tv ai ki waho i taua whakahaere. 1109. Henare Kaihau : E ki ana koe i tv koe ki waho i taua whakahaere ; otiia ki taku titiro atu ko te hiahia nui tena o nga tino iwi o te Motu nei? Paratene Ngata : Kua utua c au tena patai. 1110. Henare Kaihau : I ki ia nei koe, " Ac " ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; ko taku rongo tena. 1111. Henare Kaihau : Tena, kei te mohio ha te Komiti ko te hiahia nui tena o nga iwi katoa o tenei Motu ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ; ko etahi tangata kau ena o etahi iwi. Ko enei tangata kua pana ki rahaki, a kua whakaturia mai etahi hunga ke. Pena te mahi nui. 1112. Henare Kaihau: Ac ; engari he mea kau tena nou hei whakaora mau i tetahi whakahoki au o mua ake ra. Kua kiia ake ra c koe, c mohio ana koe ki nga mahi o nga hui, a c whakaora ana ra koe i taua korero au. Iki koe i tae koe ki nga hui i Waikato he mea nou kia mohio ai koe ki nga mahi c whakahaerea ana, a c mohio ana hoki koe he iwi kaha taua iwi, a i te mea kua kite nei koe kua whakaae koe ki tetahi tikanga c turaki ana i ta korua Pire ko te Pirimia, na kona koe i tahuri ai kite whakaora i taua korero au, i runga i tetahi atu korero ano? Hon. Timi Kara: Kaati, he aha te take i tautoko ai te Kotahitanga ite Pire ? Henare Kaihau : Kua kite kai korero kua kore noa atu ia i roto i te Kotahitanga—kua tv k,e ia ki waho o taua mea ? Paratene Ngata : A, pehea te tikanga mo te toru mano tangata i haina nei i te pitihana tautoko i te Pire nei ? 1113. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au ite mohio. Kaore koia koe i te mohio neke ake ite tekau mano nga tangata o te Kotahitanga kua haina i te pitihana whakahe i te Pire ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore aku tikanga mo ena tangata. Hei aha maku ena tekau mano tangata. 1114. Henare Kaihau : Engari kei te neke ake te tekau mano i te toru mano ? Paratene Ngata : He mangai au mo te toru mano tangata, mo te iwi nui te whenua, mo matou anake te Pire nei. Ko nga whenua o te tekau mano tangata c pitihana whakahe nei ratou mo te Pire nei kei raro i etahi Ture ke, na reira ka kapea aua whenua ki waho ote Pire nei. E korero ana ahau mo te Ture Ngawha me etahi atu. A ko nga whenua o Ngatimaniapoto hoki kei raro i etahi o aua Ture. I riro katoa nga whenua o Waikato ite rau ote patu, heoi kau nga piihi i a ratou ko nga piihi iti i whakahokia atu ki a ratou, a i rahuitia hoki. 1115. Henare Kaihau : Tena ano he poraka whenua kei reira c tae ana te nui kite 90,000 eka, kite 40,000 eka, he poraka ano c 50,000 eka, he poraka ano c 250,000 eka, he poraka ano c 500,000 eka, ahe nui ano te whenua i waho atu o ena. Huihui ena ki nga whenua o Ngapuhi, ki nga whenua i te Tai Hauauru, i Taupo hoki, a ki taku mahara ka kitea he iti rawa nga whenua i te Tai Rawhiti i o te Tai Hauauru ? Paratene Ngata : E pai ana; waiho tenei Pire mo toku takiwa. Me kape o whenua ki waho i nga tikanga o te Pire. Kaore kau ou mana i runga i oku whenua i tahuri ai koe kite arai i oku hiahia. . . ..: ... ;.; . ....-..■..'...;

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1116. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra, kei te mohio te Komiti, kei te whakahe nga tangata kei a ratou te nuinga o nga whenua kite Pire nei ? . Paratene Ngata: Mehemea koia tena, me kape atu ratou ki waho, me homai te Pire ki au, mo toku takiwa. 1117. Henare Kaihau : Ka pai to whakaaetanga ki tena? Paratene Ngata: Eki atu ana au me kape atu o koutou whenua ki waho ote Pire, me homai te Pire ki au mo toku takiwa. Kaua koe c riri mai, kaua c whakaiti ite Pire, kaua c whakahawea, he mea kia kaua ai au c kite i nga painga o roto. 1118. Henare Kaihau : E whakaaro ana ahau he mea pai pea me mutu i konei aku nei patai, i te mea hoki kua tohitu mai te kupu whakahoki mai, kei te whakahe te nuinga o nga tangata no ratou te nuinga o te whenua kite Pire : kei te penei ia nei to whakaae ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ite pena taku kupu. Ka kapea atu c ahau o whenua me nga whenua o nga tangata c whakahe ana ki waho o te Pire nei. Kei te mohio koe kite nui oou whenua, kaore aku hiahia kia pa atu ki ena. E kore koe c homai i tetahi wahi ki au, heoi taku c whakaaro ai ko oku whenua ake. 1119. Tiaki Tiwini: Te take oto tautoko ite Pire nei he mahara nou hei painga te Pire nei mo te iwi Maori ? Paratene Ngata: Ac, a kite kitea, ma whakahaerea te Pire, kaore i tino pai etahi wahi ka taea ano ena te whakatikatika. 1120. Tiaki Tiwini: I korero koe c rima miriona nga eka whenua Maori c toe ana, kaore ano kia hokona a kua oti te whakatau ki etahi tangata: I penei ia nei to kupu ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 1121. Tiaki Tiwini : A, mehemea kua whakataua te whenua ki aua Maori, ahakoa kaore i wehewehea i runga i te karaati, engari ko te hea o ia tangata i whakataua, ka taea ranei c koe te korero mai ki au i tetahi take c kore ai aua tangata c kaha kite whakahaere kite riihi i o ratou - whenua ? Paratene Ngata: Ehara ite mea he kuare no ratou kite whakahaere i a ratou mahi, engari kaore ratou c whiwhi ana i te moni reti nui, te take he kore kaore c kotahi ana to ratou whakaaro. Ko etahi c hiahia ana kite riihi ko etahi kaore i te pai. Ko etahi ka whai i tetahi Pakeha ko etahi ka whai i tetahi atu Pakeha hei reti ito ratou whenua. Ko tetahi he mahi nui rawa te haina haere i nga tangata kite tiiti o te riihi, na reira kaore te kai-tango i te riihi c kaha i te hoatu ite moni rahi mo te reti. Notemea ka whakaaro ano ia kite rahi o ana moni c pau i te whakahaerenga me te hainatanga o nga ingoa kite riihi. Ina hoki mana c utu te kai-mahi ite riihi mo te hainatanga i te ingoa o ia tangata kite tiiti. 1122. Tiaki Tiwini : E kore ranei tena c oti pai i runga i te wehenga o te hea o ia tangata o ia tangata kia motu atu ki tena ki tena ? Paratene Ngata: Ac, ka pai kau tena ritenga mo nga poraka whenua nunui anake c puritia ana c te hunga tokoiti. 1123. Tiaki Tiwini : He aha te take i pena ai ? Ka taea ranei c koe te whakaatu mai te take c kore ai c pai mo nga whenua ririki ? Paratene Ngata : E kore c pai mo nga poraka ririki he tokomaha nga tangata o roto. Te take ka horomia katoatia te whenua c nga moni mo nga ruri, mo te Kooti, me etahi atu raruraru. 1124. Tiaki Tiwini: E pena ana ranei te ahua o nga whenua c hokona ana etc Kawanatanga i nga Maori, a c kotikotia na kia kotahi eka kia rua eka te rarahi ? E pau ana koia te whenua te horomi c tena tikanga ? Paratene Ngata: Ko te Kawanatanga ano ra kite kotikoti i ena, koia ano hoki kite utu ite kotikotinga. 1125. Tiaki Tiwini: Engari ra he pono, c penatia ana etc Kawanatanga, c kotikotia ana kia rima tekau kia ono tekau piihi ? Paratene Ngata : He tikanga pai tena. Ko te Kawanatanga ano kei te ruri, ko ia ano hoki ki te utu i nga raruraru. 1126. Tiaki Tiwini : Engari ra ma ia poraka ano c whakaea ona raruraru. Kaore hoki c tangohia ana mai te moni i tetahi atu wahi. Mehemea c taea ana tena c nga whenua Pakeha he aha i kore ai te taea c nga whenua Maori, i te rohenga atu o te piihi o tena o tena ki a ia ? Paratene Ngata: Ko taku whakahe ki tena whakahaere kia whakahaerea ki nga whenua Maori he tokomaha kei roto, kei to wehenga o to ia tangata ki a ia, ka neke noa atu te moni c pau mo te ruri i te moni mo te whenua. - 1127. Tiaki Tiwini : E nui atu ana koia te utu mo te ruri o tetahi whenua notemea no te Maori taua whenua i mua atu i te hokonga a te Kawanatanga mona? Paratene Ngata : Ac; ko nga whenua Kawanatanga c kotikotia penatia ana c hohoro tonu ana te whanau mai o te moni ki a ia i te wa c nohonohoia ai te whenua, tena ko nga whenua o te Maori mehemea ka roherohea ki nga tangata hou ka tau ano ma nga tangata tawhito o te whenua c utu nga moni o te ruri. 1128. Tiaki Tiwini : Otira mehemea ka motuhake ki ia Maori tona piihi c kore ia nei tena c whakangakau nui i a ia kite mahi i tona ake i tona ake piihi, kite hanga whare, kite whakatu taiapa hoki ? Paratene Ngata: E tika ana tena; engari kite whakaungia c koe tena hei' ture tuturu ki waenganui i nga Maori, tera ka pa he mate nui ki etahi. 1129. Tiaki Tiwini : Me pewhea c taea ai c koe te karo taua mate i runga i te whakaturanga o te Poari kua tini tini nei nga korero mona ? Paratene Ngata: Me penei : mo nga poraka penei me a tatou i korero ake ra tokomaha nei nga tangata nona, ma ratou c whakatu tetahi komiti poraka, he mea whiriwhiri i a ratou ano, ama taua komiti c whakahaere taua whenua, c riihi, kia puta mai ai he painga. Ma nga tangata ote whenua c tohutohu te komiti, ma te komiti c tohutohu te Poari, a ma te Poari c whakatutuki te hiahia ote iwi mo te riihi ite whenua. Ko te hoko ia kaua c tukuna,

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1130. Tiaki Tiwini: A kaati, ko te tangata ote whenua c mea ana kite hanga i tetahi whare mona, me matua whakaae ra ano ra pea c te komiti nei ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore; he mea ke tena. Ka whai paanga ke tena patai ki nga wahi o te whenua c puritia ana hei kainga hei nohoanga hoki mo nga tangata. 1131. Tiaki, Tiwini: A tena kite hiahia tetahi tangata kite whangai hipi, kite whakatipu witi, taewa ranei, me matua whakaae ra ano koia c te Poari i te tuatahi ka ahei ai ia te peraka? Paratene Ngata: Kaore. Ka penei hoki te roherohe ote whenua: Ko te wahi ano hei nohoanga me te wahi ano hei mahinga ka puritia ano ki waho, hei wahi mahi hei wahi noho mo nga tangata 0 te whenua. 1132. Tiaki Tiwini: Me huihui tonu ranei tena mahi me tena noho, me motuhake ranei? Paratene Ngata : Me noho huihui ngatahi ano ratou i te kainga, mehemea kua ata wehea tetahi wahi o te whenua hei kainga, engari ki tena tangata ano taua mara, a ko nga wahi c hiahiatia ana c ratou hei paamu hipi me etahi mea pena ma te komiti c whakarite. 1133. Tiaki Tiwini : Ka ahei ano ra pea, hei tiaki i nga tangata kei hanga kinotia c te komiti, me whakatu ratou i a ratou hei kamupene, ka mea ai ko te komiti hei tohutohu hei whakahaere, notemea ki toku mahara kaore c neke atu te pai o te komiti i nga Ateha i korerotia ake nei? Paratene Ngata: He korero he rawa atu nga korero i puta ake ra mo nga Ateha. Ko te komiti te mea tika hei whakahaere i o ratou take, notemea kaore ratou c tono atu mo ratou. Heoi anake nga tangata c utua ko nga tangata c whakaturia ana hei kai-whakahaere me etahi mea pera. 1134. Tiaki Tiwini: E mahara ana ranei koe kite ture o 1883, i hoatu ra ite mana ki nga Maori kite whakatu komiti i tenei koroni ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 1135. Tiaki Tiwini : Xi to mahara i tahuri ano aua komiti kite mahi i tetahi mea pai? Paratene Ngata : I kite au c mahi ana, otiia kihai ratou i kaha kite whakaoti i tetahi mea. Kaore o ratou mana. Ko nga mea c oti ana ite komiti te hoatutanga kite Kooti, kaore c tirohia ana c te Kooti, heoi ka kite ratou kaore tahi he mana kei a ratou. 1136. Tiaki Tiwini: Ehara ia nei ite mea ko te take i hinga ai aua komiti, na runga ano ite ngakau-mangere ote komiti ? I kaha ta ratou mahi mo te marama tuatahi, heoi i muri i tena kua hoha, pena to ratou ahua me tetahi tamaiti me tana mokaikai ? Paratene Ngata : Ko etahi pea o nga komiti i pena, engari kei te korero au mo toku ake takiwa. 1 toku takiwa he maha nga take i whakataua c te komiti; a kaati i ta ratou tukunga atu kite Kooti kihai i tirohia mai. No reira he aha rate tikanga o te mahi atu ano ote komiti. I toku takiwa ko nga tangata ano kite whakahaere i a ratou nei mahi i naianei. 1137. Tiaki Tiwini: E mahara ana ranei koe ki nga komiti i whakaturia i Haaki Pei, ko Henare Tomoana te tiamana o tetahi, ko Henare Koura to tetahi ? Paratene Ngata : I rongo au. 1138. 'Tiaki Tiwini: Ehara ia nei ite mea he pono ko nga mema tonu ote komiti nga hoa whawhai o te komiti ? Paratene Ngata : Ac pea. 1139. Tiaki Tiwini: E whai paanga katoa ana rate hunga o te komiti ki nga whenua c whakawakia ra c ratou ? Paratene Ngata: Mehemea ra c pena ana, c kore ano c tika ta ratou whakatau. 1140. Tiaki Tiwini: Ehara ia nei tena i tetahi o nga take nunui c kore ai te Kooti c tango i nga mea i mahia ra c te komiti ? Paratene Ngata: Kaore. I whakamanaia te komiti kia tonoa he ruri kia tono ano hoki kia utua ona raruraru. 1141. Tiaki Tiwini : Ehara ia nei i te mea i whakamanaia ano ratou kite whakawa? Paratene Ngata : Ac. I whakamanaia ano ratou kia whakahaere ritenga mo te ruri, kia tono kia tv he Kooti, engari kihai i mana ite Kooti a ratou tono. Tetahi tikanga ano, kite tukua tetahi tono kia whakawakia tetahi whenua, me haina c nga taha c rua nga tono katoa, hei whakaatu ito ratou whakaae. Mehemea ka tae te komiti kite unga i tetahi taha o nga tangata kia haere mai, kaore tonu c haere, a kaore hoki c taea c te komiti ratou te to atu ki tona aroaro, heoi haere ana ratou kite Kooti. 1142. Tiaki Tiwini : Mo te tono ra pea tena kia whakawakia tetahi whenua c te komiti ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 1143. Tiaki Tiwini: Kaati ra, itewa i watea ai nga Maori kite tango i tana i pai ai i waenganui i te Kooti raua ko te komiti heoi tangohia ana c ratou ko te Kooti ? Paratene Ngata : Ac; engari he take ano ra i pena ai. He mohio no ratou c kore c taea c ratou te tito i te komiti, pena me ta ratou tito kite aroaro Kooti, he mohio hoki ratou ka mau to ratou tito. Na reira pai ke atu ratou kite Kooti ite komiti. 1144. Tiaki Tiwini: I pai katoa ranei ratou kite Kooti a i kino kite komiti ? Paratene Ngata : Ko etahi i pai. Ite mea kaore he mana ote komiti, heoi ko te Kooti anake te wahi c taea ai c ratou te mahi i a ratou mahi. 1145. Tiaki Tiwini : Mehemea ka tv te Poari, ki tou mahara ko te korero ranei i te pono kite aroaro o te Poari, te hunga i oma ra kite Kooti, i mataku ra kei mau a ratou tito ? Paratene Ngata: Ko taku kupu tenei: Kaore c meatia tetahi mea c te Poari, engari ma te, komiti ra ano te whakahau, a kia oti nga mahi ite komiti katahi ka hoatu kite Poari; c kore c taea c tetahi tangata te tito i te aroaro o te komiti, te take c mohio katoa ana nga tangata c whakarongo mai ra he pono ranei he tito ranei me ta ratou whakaatu mai ano. I roto ite Kooti Whenua Maori kaore c ahei te tangata kite korero ko nga tangata anake c whai keehi ana kite aroaro o te Kooti, a c whai mana ana ranei i raro i te ture. ~ 1146. Tiaki Tiwini: He kai-korero ra. pea. tetahi? .... • ....-.-- . .-- Pa,ratene Ngata : Ac.

1.~-3a.

Taite, te 27 o Oketopa, 1898. c . " Paeatene Ngata : Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a ia. 1147. Te Tiamana : I ki koe i o korero i runga i nga patai a Hon. Timi Kara, c whakaae ana koe kia wawahia nga poraka whenua karaihe tuatahi (first class), a kite hoatu ki ia tangata o te whenua tona taitara tona taitara ote wahi kua kotia atu ki a ia: i pera ia nei koe ? Paratene Ngata : Ac; ikiau he whenua ena c pai ana kia penatia. 1148. Te Tiamana : E mohio ana ranei koe ki nga ture o nga whenua a te Kawanatanga c whakanohonohoia nei c ia kite tangata? ■ Paratene Ngata : Ac. 1149. Te Tiamana : E mohio ana ranei koe c rua tahi nga tino ture c hoatu ana ki runga ki nga tangata c tango whenua ana i te Kawanatanga—he noho tuturu tetahi, he mahi i te whenua tetahi ? Paratene Nagata : Kua kite au c pena ana. 1150. Te Tiamana : E tino marama ana ranei koe ki tona tikanga ? Paratene Ngata : Tona tikanga me whakarite c te tangata c tango ana i te whenua aua ture ; me whakapai ano c ia etahi wahi whenua, me hanga ano c ia tetahi whare kia rite ki tetahi ahua i roto i nga ture, i mua atu ite tino rironga ote whenua mona. Xi te kore c rite ia ia ena ture ka tangohia te whenua. 1151. Te Tiamana : A i te ritenga katoatanga o nga ture i a ia ka hoatu c te Kawanatanga ki taua tangata te mana o te whenua mona me tana whanau ? Paratene Ngata: Ac. 1152. Te Tiamana : Mo runga i nga komiti c ki nei koe kia wawahia c ratou nga poraka whenua karaihe tuatahi, tera ranei koe c whakaae, mehemea ka pena te ritenga, kite whakanoho i ena ture ki runga ki nga Maori c tango ana i aua tekihana whenua ma ratou ? Paratene Ngata : Kaore ; notemea no ratou ake ano te whenua. Ko nga tekiona c kotia ra ki waho mo ratou, he mea kokoti mai ano i to ratou whenua. 1153. Te Tiamana : E kore ranei koe c whakanoho i tetahi ture ki runga i nga Maori c tango ana i aua tekihana whenua ? Paratene Ngata: Kaore. Mehemea ka tonoa tena i a ratou, tera pea c tau he mate ki a ratou, ko tona ritenga kite kore c rite aua ture i a ratou ka tangohia te whenua i a ratou. Ko toku mahara tenei, me wawahi te whenua kia riro i ia tangata tona wahi, kia ahei ia te mahi mona ake hei oranga mona me tana whanau, kia kore atu te whangai a tetahi tangata i tetahi atu tangata, pena me te ture ote hunga mangere c noho nei kaore nei c mahi mona ake. Penei kua mahi katoa te tangata. 1154. Te Tiamana : Xi te kore c whakatakotoria tetahi ture whakamahi i te whenua, penei he pono ra, ka tautoko tena i te tikanga noho huihui, tikanga mangere hoki o nga Maori ? Paratene Ngata : Ka araitia te mangere o te tangata kite homai tetahi ture penei me tenei; kia kaua c tukuna nga tangata mahi kaha kia whangai i nga mangere me nga tangata kaore c mahi. Ma tena pea c ngakau nui ai nga tangata mangere kite mahi. 1155. Te Tiamana : Engari na te ture noho huihui ra o te Maori nana i whakamangere te Maori, ko te ahua o te Maori c manaaki nei ite tangata, c awhina ana i taua tikanga. Whangai tonu ai hoki te Maori i te hunga mangere, ahakoa pehea te nui o to ratou mangere, i runga i to te Maori tikanga manaaki tangata ? . . Paratene Ngata : Ac ; ko taua ture aroha o te Maori te putake mai o te he, i runga i taua tikanga manaaki i nga mangere. Ko to te Pakeha ahua kei te rereke. Ina hoki he mano he mano noa iho ona tangata c noho huihui ana i ona taone, kaore c hoatu noa atu te kai ma te tangata, koia tena te take nana ratou i mamahi ai. 1156. Te Tiamana : Ka nui toku wehi kite kore c whakatakoria c koutou he ture whakamahi i te whenua, kia pena me tenei c korerotia nei, ka penei tonu ano te ahua ? Paratene Ngata : Ko te take tenei i tono ai au kia hoatu he mana kite komiti kia timata ta ratou whakahaere ita ratou c kite ana hei painga mo nga Maori. Koinaka tetahi o nga mea hei whiriwhiringa ma ratou, hei patu rawa atu i tenei tikanga kino i te manaaki me te awhina hoki i te mangere. 1157. Te Tiamana : A kaati, ka whakaae ra koe kite whakanoho i tetahi ture penei te ahua, mehemea c whai mana ana nga komiti kite wawahi i nga poraka whenua karaihe tuatahi ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; he mea tena ma te komiti c whakarite. 1158. Te Tiamana : Te take i patai ai au i tena patai ki a koe, kua kite au i nga kainga i toku takiwa he toru koata hea o nga Maori kaore tahi i te mahi, a ko tera tahi koata anake c mahi ana i te katoa o nga mahi c whangai ana hoki i tera koata i roto i to ratou mangere ? Paratene Ngata : Ac ; koia tena te ahua o katoa. . 1159. Te Tiamana: Mehemea ka taea c koe te whaihanga tetahi tikanga c taea ai te whakamutu atu tena tv tikanga, kaati, he kai-whakaora koe no tou iwi. Iki koe ko koe ano kei te mahi i tou whenua; pehea te rahi o tau mahinga? Paratene Ngata : He nui noa atu te whenua. E penei ana toku ahua na :he maha oku hapu, a c whai paanga ana au ki nga whenua o aua hapu. Xi toku mahara c rima nga poraka kei roto i toku ringa i tenei wa. E rima nga paanga c mahia ana c au, engari kaore moku anake. E mahi ana au moku ake me nga hapu maha nona nga whenua. Ko te komiti o ia hapu o ia hapu te kai whakahaere i tona i tona. 1160. Te Tiamana : Kia pehea te nui ote whenua karaihe tuatahi c rite ai hei oranga mo tetahi tangata raua ko tana wahine me a raua tamariki toko-wha toko-rima ranei—whenua c pai ana mo te ngaki maara nei ? Paratene Ngata : E penei ana to patai na, haunga nga whenua c whakatipungia ana kite hipi ?

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1161. Te Tiamana: Ac ; ara, whenua c pai ana mo te mahi paamu—otira kei te takoto o te whenua te ritenga? Paratene Ngata: Mehemea ko te ritenga oto patai mo te whenua c rite ana hei mahinga kai ma ratou ia tau iia tau, he nui noatu ana te 25 tae atu kite 50 eka. Te take i rahi ai te whenua c whakaaturia nei c au notemea, ka mahi ratou i tetahi wahi i tenei tau, a ka kiko kore tera wahi kua whiti ano he wahi ano, pena te ahua. Mo te tangata kotahi tena raua ko tana wahine me ta raua whanau. 1162. Te Tiamana: Aera; engari kia rite ano rate whenua, ehara i te mea hei whangai mona me tana whanau, engari kia taea ai ano c ia te whakaputa etahi hereni mo nga ra mate kai. Xi toku mahara kaore c nui ana nga eka c kiia mama c koe ? Paratene Ngata: Mo nga maara anake taku c mea atu nei. Kaore tahi c uru ki taku whakaarotanga te whenua c ahei ana hei nohoanga mo tetahi hoiho, kau hoki mana, mo etahi atu mea pena ranei. Kia nui atu anoi taku i whakahua ake rate whenua c tika mo tena. 1163. Te Tiamana: Tena, kite tv nga komiti nei, aki te wawahia hoki c ratou nga whenua karaihe tuatahi nei, ka tautoko ranei koe i tetahi tikanga i te aroaro o te komiti, me ka tango he tangata i tetahi tekihana whenua mona me tana wahine me ta raua whanau, me haere ia ki runga me mahi ano, a rangatira iho tona ahua a muri atu. Ara, tetahi tikanga penei na " Mau ano c mahi tetahi oranga mou ; me kaua koe c whakawhirinaki atu ki etahi Maori ke hei tiaki hei whangai hoki i a koe a muri ake nei." Tera ranei koe c whakaae kite hanga i tetahi ture pena? Paratene Ngata : Ac. Koi na taku c tono nei kia meatia. 1164. Te Tiamana: E ki penei atu ana au ki i a koe kite taea c koe tetahi tikanga c oti ai tetahi ritenga penei tona ahua ka awhina tonu au ia koe, i tetahi atu Maori ranei c tohe ana kia tutuki tena ritenga, i nga wa katoa c noho ana au i tenei nohoanga ? Paratene Ngata : E whakawhetai ana au ki a koe, etc Tiamana. Ka whakapau au i toku kaha, apiti ki tou awhina i kiia mama c koe, kite haere ki oku hoa Maori kauhau ai ki a ratou kia tahuri ki tau c whakahau mama. Henaeb Paeata : Ka karangatia : ka whai korero : ka patairia. Henare Parata: Tena koe etc Tiamana me nga honore mema o te Komiti. Ko taku korero tuatahi ko tenei na : c whakaae ana au kite wahi tuatahi ote Pire. E penei ana nei ko nga hoko whenua katoa ka whakamutua ahakoa kite Kawanatanga ki etahi atu Pakeha ranei; engari ko te hoatu ite mana whakahaere o nga whenua kite ringaringa o te Poari kaore au c whakaae. Tuatahi, mehemea hoki ka tv te Poari, c kore c mutu te Kooti Whenua Maori, ki taku titiro i te Pire, notemea c penei ana tona tikanga na : kei nga takiwa c hiahiatia ana c te tokomaha o nga tangata o nga whenua kia whakaturia te Poari hei mahi i nga wheuua, ka mahi te Poari, kaati ko nga takiwa c kore ana c pai te tokomaha ki tena ka tn tonu ano ko te Kooti. Me penei taku whakakamarama i te ahua raruraru o o taua tv whakahaere : Mehemea ka whakaaetia c te hunga whai-whenua o Wairarapa ko te Poai-i, heoi ka tv te Poari; a mehemea ka kore nga tangata o Heretaunga c pai mai ki tena ritenga, ka tv tonu mai ano te Kooti ki reira. No reira tera pea c taki-whakauruuru tona ahua i tetahi takiwa ko te Kooti, a i tera takiwa ko te Poari, ara, kei te ahua tonu o nga tangata o ia takiwa te pai ranei te kore pai ranei kite Poari. Koia au ka ki atu kite Komiti c kore rawa c mutu taku tohe penei na, mehemea ka penatia he whakahaere, ka kino rawa atu te mate mo nga Maori i tenei c pa nei ki a ratou, ka rua ai ahi iiei tahu i a ratou, kei te mohio katoa hoki tatou kite tahuna c tatou nga pito c rua o te kanara ka tere rawa atu te pau o taua kanara i te kanara i tahuna ko te pito kotahi. A, kaati, ko toku whakaaro tenei: ahakoa whakamutua te Kooti Whenua Maori tv mai ko te Poari, nui ke atu te mate mo te iwi Maori i tena tv whakahaere, i ta te Kooti whakahaere. Ko te Kooti c inahi nei tokoiwa ona Tiati, ara tokowaru Tiati, me te Tiati Tumuaki, ka tokoiwa katoa ai. Kaati, hei whakarite kia marama ai aku kupu tautohe, me ki ko te utu mo te Tiati kotahi o nga Tiati tokoiwa nei c £400 ite tau ; hui katoa £3,600. Ko te Tiati Tumuaki me tana £800 ka huia atu ka tae nga moni nei ki £4,400, nga moni utu mo nga Tiati tokoiwa. Kaore au c whai kupu mo nga tari ote Kooti, ona apiha, kai-whakamaori ranei. Kaore tahi au ite tino marama, engari ko taku rongo c £20,000 te moni c pau ana i te tau mo te Kooti mo ona tari, mo ona Tiati, me ona apiha katoa. Kei te pena te ahua ote Kooti c mahi nei. I runga i nga whakamaoritanga mai a nga kai-whakamaori i roto i te Whare o Earo tae atu ki nga hui i tv ki waho, i nga korero a te Pirimia raua ko Timi Kara, ki ta raua whakaaro me wahi kia ono nga takiwa mo te Motu nei, a kia tokorima mema mo ia takiwa hei Poari. Kei te ki pena te Pire : Kia rima nga mema hei Poari mo ia takiwa. E ki ana au c whitu ke, a ka whakaatu au kite Komiti i te take i ki pena ai au. Tuacahi, ko te Komihana o nga Whenua ote Karauna oia cakiwa hei Tiamana mo te Poari mo tona takiwa. Bhara te Komihana i te reo Maori, no reira ka ahei ano te whakatu i tetahi kai-whakamaori mo ia takiwa mo ia takiwa. Heoi ka ono ai kaiwhakamaori. I ko atu i tena ka ahei ano kia whakaturia he karaka mo ia takiwa, hui katoa ai c whitu tahi nga apiha mo ia takiwa. Mehemea ka wahia te Motu kia ono takiwa, ka wha tekau ma rua ai apiha hei utunga. Kua whakaatu ake ra au ko te moni ma te Tiati kotahi i runga i te whakariteritenga c £400, Kaati, ka whakahokia c au taua moni, me ki, kite £300 ma te apiha kotahi, i tv i raro i te whakahaere hou, a kite huihuia katoatia ka tae nga moni utu mo ratou kite £12,600 ite tau. Na kona au ka ki mehemea ka whakaturia ko te Poari c meatia nei i raro i te Pire, kaati, ka tino nuku rawa ake te mate c pa ki nga Maori i tenei c pa nei ki a ratou,i naianei, a ka nui rawa atu hoki nga pikaunga hei wahawahanga ma ratou i ta te Kooti whakahaere. Tetahi tikanga c meatia ana i raro i te Pire ki toku mahara kei te he ko tenei na, ma nga Maori ano nona te poraka c utu te mahinga o nga rori, me te tiakanga ano hoki i nga rori i nga wa katoa. Kei nga tekiona 32 tae noa kite 34 o te Pire taua tikanga. Kaati, mehemea tera tetahi whenua ehara i te karaihe tuatahi. Kua korero hoki nga kai-korero o mua atu i au ko te nuinga o naa whenua karaihe tuatahi kua pau te hoko kite Kawanatanga me. nga Pakeha. Kaore c tangohia ko nga whenua tino he rawa kiko kore nei hei tauira whaka14—1. 3a.

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rite mo aku kupu tautohe, engari ka tangohia c au hei te whenua karaihe tuarua. Me ki c tatou 10,000, 12,000 ranei nga eka o tetahi whenua, a c rima macro te roa o tetahi rori c maro ana ma- runga i taua wahi. Me ki ano c tatou tera kei tetahi wahi o taua rori he awa c ahei ana kia pirititia. Mehemea he pena te rahi o taua awa me te awa o Heretaunga nei, iti iho ranei; tera pea c tae kite £3,000 tae atu kite £4,000 hei whai hanga i tena piriti. Na, he whenua kino taua whenua. Xi toku mohio ko te moni c pau mo te ruritanga me te mahinga ite rori, haunga te moni mo te tiakanga ite rori a muri atu, tera c tae kite £4 mo ia tiini mo ia tiini. Ac ki ana au, i runga i te mea he whenua karaihe tuarua te whenua, he kino, he hiwihiwi, he wharuarua, he tini noa iho ano hoki pea nga hiwi c ahei ana kia keria kia pai ai te takoto o te rori; ame taiapa ano hoki pea mo te kau. Na kona ka ki au ko tena moni whakarite c£4 he moni iti. 1165. Te Tiamana : E kore ra pea c utaina nga moni utu mo te taiapatanga i te rori ki runga i taua rori, engari ka tangohia ketia i runga i te hunga nona nga whenua i te taha o te rori ? Henare Parata : E pai ana tena ; heoi me whakarere ake c au te moni utu mo te taiapatanga ki waho o taku tatau, penei, ki taku mahara ano he moni iti rawa te £4 nei mo te tiini. Mehemea c rima macro te roa ote rori tera c tae kite £1,600 c pau mo te rori, haunga to te piriti, kua whakanohoia ake ra c tatou kite £3,000 te utu mona, hui katoa ai ena moni ka tae kite £4,600. A kaati, i waho o tena eki ana te Pire, ma nga Maori ano c tiaki tonu c whakapai tonu nga rori. Ara, penei tona ritenga kite puta he waipuke ka riro te rori ite wai, ka riro ma nga Maori ano c whakaora kia pai ai, ite mea ko ratou ano hoki nga kai-tiaki. I runga i te mea ma te Poari katoa enei mea c mahi, heoi ka moketeria cte Poari te whenua kite Kawanatanga rite tahi ki nga tangata noa nei. Me ki c tatou kotahi tekau te hunga nona tenei poraka 10,000 eka, ama ratou.ake ano c utu te ruri ote rori, me te mahinga ite rori, te tiakanga ano koki ite rori a muri atu. Me ki ano c tatou, tena tetahi whenua Maori, ano te Kawanatanga tetahi whenua c piri ana kite taha o taua whenua, a tera ano tetahi no tetahi Pakeha noa, c piri ana hoki kite taha o taua whenua. Heoi ma te hunga kotahi tekau nona nei te whenua Maori c utu te katoa o te ruritanga i te rori, te mahinga, te tiakanga hoki o te rori, ko te painga ia ka whiwhi ngatahi nga tangata ke nei kaore ra i utu i tetahi kapa kia kotahi mo te rori. 1166. Te Tiamana : E kore ranei nga Pakeha c utu i to ratou hea, penei ano me ratou c utu nei i ia wa i ia wa ? Henare Parata : Kaore tahi rate Pire eki pena ana. Na kona hoki i whakaurua ai c matou tena rarangi ki roto i te pitihana. 1167. Te Tiamana : Kaore ia nei c whakahua ana tetahi kupu i reira mo nga whenua Pakeha c piri ana ki nga whenua Maori ? Henare Parata : Kei te tika tena; engari kua oti ke noa atu te hanga tetahi ture c pa ana ki tena putake. Eki tuturu ana rate Pire ko enei tangata mana c tiaki nga rori, ko te moni hei utu i te tiakanga i nga rori o te Pakeha kei te tangohia mai i nga moni c utua atu ana, ki roto ki nga Moni Topu ote Koroni. Xi toku mahara ko te tikanga tino marama hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori a mua ake nei, c puta ai he painga ki nga Maori me te koroni katoa ano hoki, me whakatutu etahi komiti takiwa, kaua c penei me nga komiti i whakahuaina ake ra c Paratene Ngata, hei riiwhi mo te Kooti tae atu hoki kite Poari c meatia nei. Ko taua komiti kia tokowha ona mema, ko tona tiamana ko tetahi o nga Tiati o te Kooti Whenua Maori, i te mea kua tohungatia aua Tiati ki nga tikanga oo te Maori whenua me o te Maori ture. Kia toko-wha mema Maori mo te komiti. Te take i penei ai au no te mea ko te Komihana o nga Whenua *o te Karauna, c meatia nei hei Tiamana mo te Poari c hara i te tohunga ki nga mea a te Maori, a kaore hoki pea i te mohio kite reo Maori. Xi toku mohio era c tae kite iwa kite tekau tau mona c ako ana i ote Maori tikanga io te Maori ture ka mohio ai ia kite whakahaere tika i nga mahi cpa ana kite iwi Maori; he maha rawa hoki nga take o tenei hanga ote Maori kite whenua. He mea ano he noho tuturu, he tuku tetahi, he raupatu tetahi, me etahi atu kereme maha. Me pehea te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna c mohio ai ki ena ahua take katoa mehemea ka kore ia c ata kuraina mo nga tau tekau, tekau ma rua ranei ? E kore ano ra c kiia ko te mohio katoatia c ia. Engari mehemea ka tv ko tetahi o nga Tiati reo Maori o te Kooti, tera ia c mohio ki ona ritenga katoa, nuku atu ano te pai, ta te mea kite tv ko te Tiati reo Maori penei kaore he tikanga c whakaturia ai tetahi kai-whakamaori. Ko te Tiati anake me whiwhi kite utu tau. Ko nga mema ote Komiti ka utua kautia mo nga wa anake c mahi ana ratou. E penei ana hoki toku maramatanga kite Pire Poari nei, ka haere tonu te utu mo nga mema ahakoa mahi ahakoa mangere ;a he taumahatanga ano tena ka utaina mai ki runga ki nga iwi Maori. Me ki penei c tatou ko taku komiti c mea nei kia whakaturia, kua whakaritea kia tv ki Kereitaone, heoi karangatia ana mai kia haere atu ki tetahi takiwa ke whakawa ai, ka tika ano kia utua nga moni mo o ratou tikiti i te tereina me to ratou oranga i te kai i te moe. 1168. Te Tiamana : Xi taku mahara kei te whakahe ano koe ito whakahaere. Ehara hoki tena i te whakahaere ano i o koutou ake mahi mehemea c tono ana koutou ma te tangata ke c utu nga raruraru o nga mahi. Ma wai c utu te haerenga ite reriwe ? Henare Parata: Ma te Kawanatanga ra. Ko te Kawanatanga na hoki kei te utu i nga Tiati me era atu o nga apiha o te Kooti. 1169. Te Tiamana: E tono ana koe ma te Kawanatanga c utu nga tikiti reriwe o nga mema o te komiti ? Henare Parata: Ac ra; engari ki toku mahara kei te pohehe pea te Tiamana i a ia c ki nei kei te mea au kia riro ki nga Maori te mana whakahaere motuhake o o ratou mea katoa. Koia tenei taku c tohe nei na: kaore tahi au ite penei kia motuake ki nga Maori te mana whakahaere puta noa puta noa te Motu nei, te take kaore ano i tae noa mai, ki taku mahara, te taima mo tena tikanga. Ko taku c mea nei, ko te komiti c whakamanaia nei ratou ko te Tiati, ka tv nei hei Tiamana, me pena me tetahi kai-whakaako kai-tohutohu ki a ratou. Me whai mana te komiti ki te mahi i nga whakahaere katoa c rite ana mo te riihi mo era atu mea; engari kaua c hoatu te mana kite hanga riihi ngaro i te whenua o tetahi atu tangata. Mehemea c hiahiatia ana kia

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riihitia te whenua o tetahi tangata me- whakahaere nui tonu taua mea, me mokete ranei me tuku teneta (tender) ranei. I runga i toku mohio c hiahia ana te Tiamana kia hohoro te oti o tenei take, koia au ka mea kite whakamutu i aku korero i tenei wa, a kei .te pouri ahau mehemea i haere tuarua aku korero ma runga i nga wahi kua haeretia c nga kai-korero o mua i au. 1170. Te Tiamana : Ma wai c hanga he ture whakahaere mo enei komiti? Henare Parata : Ma te Paremete. 1171. Te Tiamana : Mehemea ka kore c paingia c nga Maori nga ture i hangaia ai c te Paremete ka pehea ? Henare Parata: Me hui tahi te Kawanatanga me nga Maori kite whiriwhiri kite hanga i etahi ture pai. Kia pena te ahua ote Kawanatanga raua ko te Maori me te papa raua ko tana tamaiti, c tika ana ra me huihui ano raua kite whiriwhiri i etahi huarahi whakahaere ma raua i taua mea. 1172. Te Tiamana : Otira me titiro ano pea koe ki tetahi taha ote putake nei. Mehemea hoki ka kore c paingia c te Paremete ta nga Maori c whakatakoto mai ai ka pehea ? Henare Parata : Xi taku mahara me penei c oti ai. Mehemea ka tahuri te hunga Maori i tenei wa kite hanga i etahi ture ka oti ka homai ai kia kawea mai c etahi o ratou tangata kaiwhakahaere kite Pirimia atewa c kopi ana te Paremete kite whakatakoto i aua kupu ki tona aroaro, ki reira hoki ratou tahi hurihuri ai i tena tikanga, tera ratou c whakaatu i ta ratou, tera hoki pea ia c whakaatu i tana; a i runga i tena whakahaere, ki toku whakaaro, ka oti pai he ritenga. A, kei te tuunga ra o te Whare Paremete i muri mai i tena kaore he mea hei whakararuraru ite hoatutanga o aua mea kite aroaro ote Whare. 1173. Te Taimana :Me kotahi ano ra pea te whakaae o nga Maori kite mahi i enei ture whakahaere c meatia nei kia whakatakotoria kite Whare ? Henare Parata : Ac ;te nuinga o ratou ; pena ano me to te Paramete ritenga. Kaore hoki c rite tahi ana te whakaaro o te Pakeha. Ko te tokomaha ano te tokomaha ko te tokoiti ano te tokoiti. Ka riro ano ite tokomaha tana c hiahia ana, ko te tokoiti ia ka whiwhi anake i te mea tupono ana mai ki mua i a ia. 1174. Te Tiamana: Mehemea he tino tokoiti rawa ana nga tangata c whakahe ana ki nga mea c kawea ana mai kite Paramete ka pehea ? Henare Parata : Ko toku mahara mehemea ka kotahi katoa te whakaae ote tokomaha o tetahi takiwa kia whakahaerea tetahi tikanga penei me tenei c whakatakotoria ake nei, a ka oti i a ratou te mahi ka puta te painga ki a ratou, a kihai i pa atu he mate ki etahi atu Maori, kaore tahi ra he he o tena. 1175. Te Tiamana: Ko tou ake whakaaro ra tena engari tenei kua tae mai etahi Maori ki o matou aroaro heoi c rereke ana o ratou whakaaro ? Henare Parata : Ac, c tika ana. 1176. Te Tiamana : E whakaatu ana ra koe i tetahi ritenga kite Komiti hei painga mo nga Maori o te koroni katoa nei ? Henare Parata : Ko toku mahara ra tena. 1177. Te Tiamana: Ka whakaae ranei koe kite ata whakangawari marire iho iau tikanga kia whai hangai marire atu ai ki a etahi atu tikanga a te tuunga o tetahi hui c karangatia ana hei hurihuri i tenei putake ? Henare Parata: Ac, mehemea ka kite au i etahi ritenga c hapainga ana mai c pai atu ana i taku i whakaatu ake nei, ko te tino whakaaetia c au. 1178. Te Tiamana : He ture ano tena no te Pakeha, a c awhinatia ana c ia i etahi wa —tena ingoa ki a ratou " Ko te ture hoatu homai " ? Henare Parata : Ac kei te mohio ra au c rua ano taha o ia take korero, a mehemea ka haere uaua tonu ka maro tonu nga taha c rua, kaore c rarata c ngawari mai ranei, kaore rawa atu he mea c oti. 1179. Te Tiamana : Koia na hoki taku c hiahia nei kia mohio au ; ara, mehemea i runga i te mea kua tino marenatia ou whakaaro ki tau huarahi no reira kaore koe c pai kite titiro mai ki etahi atu huarahi kua takoto mai nei te whakapuaki kite aroaro ote Komiti ? Henare Parata : Kaore, ehara au i te tangata pera. Tamahau Mahupuku : Ka karangatia, ka whai korero. Tamahau Mahupuku: Ko Wairarapa taku kainga. E tautoko ana ahau ite Pire ate Minita Maori. Kua ki ia ko ia te matua o te iwi Maori o nga Motu c rua, kaati c kore ia c kaha kite hanga i te Pire kino mo ana tamariki Maori, penei me nga korero a etahi o nga kai-korero i korero ai kite Komiti nei. Tenei kei taku ringa te kape o nga korero whakamutunga ate Pirimia ite hui ki Papawai, i te 26 o Hune, 1898, a kua oti te whakamaori te panui haere ki nga iwi Maori o te Motu. Ko toku whakaaro tenei; he aroha noku kite iwi Maori i tautoko ai au i tenei Pire, notemea ki taku whakaaro hei painga tenei Pire mo nga Maori puta noa i tenei Motu. Kaore ano ahau i kite i te mate o tenei Pire —kaore ano i taea te whakaatu he aha te kino c puta i tenei Pire. Kaore ano toku iwi i mate i nga ture i mahia i roto i tenei Whare, a c tika ana ano hoki pea enei kupu mo era atu iwi Maori ote Motu nei. Xi taku whakaaro te take ipa ai nga mate kite iwi Maori, na o ratou ringaringa ano i whatoro, No te rironga mai o nga moni i hokona atu ai o ratou whenua, ano te paunga, katahi ka tangi. I roto i enei tau ka timata toku iwi kite riihi mai i nga whenua Karauna ite Kawanatanga, kite tango mai i nga whenua i hokona ra c o ratou matua i mua, i runga kau ite whatoro o nga ringaringa. Ka whitu mano nga eka kua hoki mai ki toku iwi i runga i taua tikanga—ara, kua riihitia c nga taitamariki o toku takiwa; a ki toku whaakaaro mehemea ka penei te Motu katoa ka ora. Na reira au i tautoko ai ite Poari kia tv, hei ako i nga Maori ki enei tv mea. Ko taku whakaaro mo matou mo te iwi Maori, kei te rite katoa kite tamariki, he penei ano me au, he tamariki katoa puta noa te Motu nei. Hei timatanga tenei mo ta matou ako i a matou, tenei Pire tino nui i kauhau haeretia nei i nga hui Maori katoa timata i Te

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Waipatu. Kaore te iwi Maori c kite ite mea pai mo ratou. I mua i hanga tetahi Ture i roto i tenei Whare hei painga mo nga Maori, a pehea ana ratou? Hei painga mo nga iwi c rua taua Ture, engari i tahuri nga Maori kite turaki i taua Pire kia kore ai c paahi. Ko te ture mo nga rori taua Ture, a i pehea na Maori ? Whawha ana ratou kite pu puta noa ite Motu nei, ka ki " Kaore matou c pai; ka araia c matou aua rori kia kore c haere ma runga i nga whenua Maori; ka mate tatou kite puta enei rori." Na, ko te Pakeha c mohio ana he taonga te rori, c kore c waiho hei mate mo te iwi Maori engari hei ora mo ratou. A, ahakoa te whakahe a nga Maori, kua oti nga piriti me nga rori te hanga, a kei te otinga ka kite te iwi Maori i te he o ta ratou, ka mutu te whakahe, katahi ka ki, " Katahi te mea pai he rori, i pohehe nei matou he mea kino." I muri i tera ka mahia nga waea patu korero. Tata tonu te ara ote whawhai ki tenei Motu i taua wa i mahia ai te rama ote waea. Itu etahi tangata ka mea, "Xi te whakaaetia kia whakaarahia te waea ka whakangaromia nga Maori, me o ratou whenua katoa, me a ratou mea katoa." Ko au tonu nei tetahi o nga tangata i tino ngana kite kati i taua waea. Otira, he mohio ake te Pakeha, a tohe tonu ia ki te whakatutuki i tona whakaaro, a oti ana i a ia aua mahi. Ko ia c mohio ana hei painga aua mahi mo nga iwi c rua, na reira mahia ana c ia kia oti. No te otinga o te whakaara 0 te rama o te waea, ka kite nga Maori i ana mahi, katahi ka ki, " Katahi te mea pai rawa ko te rama patunga waea." Muri iho i tena ko te mahinga ite reriwe. Tena ano ona tangata o taua wa i ki he tangata mohio ratou, a kite whakaaetia nga rama reriwe kia hanga ka riro i te Kawanatanga te whenua c rua tekau macro te whanui o tetahi taha o tetahi taha ote rama occ reriwe, na reira he mea tika kia tahuri nga Maori kite kati ite reriwe kia kore ai c mahia —kite kore ka mate te iwi Maori ka murua atu o ratou whenua i a ratou, me era atu tv korero pera. Ko au tetahi i tautoko i aua whakaaro. Otira, hanga ana c te Pakeha te reriwe, hei aha ma.na nga whakahe a te iwi Maori, notemea c mohio ana ia hei painga taua mea mo nga iwi c rua, no te otinga ka kite te Maori i te pai kua kore ana whakahe. I muri i tera ko nga kura. Kaore rawa nga Maori i pai ki taua mea i te tuatahi. Iki ratou, he kino te kura, ka ngaro te mana ote Maori, ka mate nga mea katoa i te kura. Engari ko nga Pakeha i mohio hei painga mo nga iwi c rua kite tv nga kura, a whakaturia ana c ratou nga kura hei aha ma ratou te whakahe o nga Maori, na c kite nei tatou kua tv nga kura puta noa i te Motu, me to tatou kite hoki i te pai a a ratou mahi. Ko enei painga katoa .i hoatu ki nga iwi Maori c te Pakeha, ahakoa to ratou whakahe, a ahakoa te kore tautoko atu o nga mema Maori 1 aua mahi. Kaore kau *he mema Maori i uru ki nga komiti nana i whiriwhiri aua mea, kaore kau he kai-korero Maori penei me enei c noho nei i tae ki nga komiti mo aua mea. Na, mo runga i taku kupu i ki ake ra au, he nui toku aroha ki nga iwi Maori, c hiahia ana ahau kia uru nga tamariki ki nga kura ako mahi-a-ringaringa. Haunga nga kura ako whika, tuhituhi, korero pukapuka nei. Na reira ka ki au me tautoko matou ko toku iwi i te Pire c takoto nei ito tatou aroaro, a ma te Whare c whakatikatika atu i runga i tana i kite ai he tika, a kia paahitia mo nga iwi katoa ote Motu nei, c tangi nei ki o ratou mate. Kua rongo au tekau mano nga tangata kua tae kite aroaro o te Whare, i runga i nga ratou pitihana i tuku mai ai, kite whakahe ite Pire. No reira ka ki au, kaati me paahi tenei Pire mo te Tai Eawhiti. Tera ano tetahi mea nui i whakaaetia i te tau 1840, ko te Tiriti o Waitangi, c rua takau ma rirna tonu nga tangata nana i whakaae i te tuatahi, kite tirohia ka kitea ano te hainatanga o o ratou ingoa ki taua pukapuka, a kia pau rawa nga' tau c rua ki muri mai ka hamate rima rau tangata. I whakahe te nuinga o nga iwi o nga Motu nei ki taua Tiriti i taua wa, kore rawa tetahi o ratou i whakapono tera c puta he painga kite iwi Maori i taua mea; engari i naianei kite tirotirohia c tatou nga iwi Maori katoa o te Motu nei ka kite tatou kei te hapai katoa kei te whakapai katoa ite Tiriti o Waitangi, kei te korero katahi te mea pai ko tera. No reira au ka ki me paahi tenei Pire mo te Tai Bawhiti; ako nga tangata kaore c hiahia kia uru o ratou takiwa ki raro i te Pire, me ata noho me matakitaki mai, kia kite ratou i te whakahaere a te Pire, a ki taku mohio kaore c roa ka kite tatou kua huri katoa mai te wha tekau mano o te iwi Maori c toe nei ki te tautoko ite Pire. Kei te tino mohio au, ite mea kei te marama au kite Pire ate Pirimia, kite kitea etahi wahi mate i te Pire ma whakahaerea te Pire ma te Whare c whakatikatika, ko te wahi tika hoki tera hei haringa atu i nga mate kia whakaorangia. Xi te haere au kite humeke, a ka hanga eia he puutu moku, ka kuhuna c au nga puutu ka haere au i taku haere; kaore pea i roa taku haerenga kua tv taku wawae i tetahi o nga neera o te puutu. Ka pehea au ? Ka hoki ra ahau ki taua humeke ka ki atu, "Tirohia nga puutu i mahia nei c koe moku he neera kei roto i tetahi etuake ana." Ka pehea te humeke ? Ka naomia atu eia te puutu ra, kamauki tana hama me ana mea raweke i era tv hanga- ka unuhia eia te neera. Ko taku hiahia kia tika te noho ate iwi Maori, kia marama, kia pai, penei me ta te Pire Poari c whakaatu ake nei. Kaore au c whakaae ki tetahi Pire ke atu i tenei, notemea kei te mohio au ko koutou ko te iwi Pakeha te matua o matou ote iwi Maori. Kaore kau oku ake whenua, engari mehemea i paahitia tenei Pire i mua noa atu kua toe nui tonu te whenua ki au. Mehemea i pera kua riro ite Poari te tikanga mo te whakahaere i aku whenua, kua wawahia kua riihitia, a tena c utua ki au te 7 hereni te 8 hereni ranei mo te eka. Koia tenei taku i mahara ai hei whakapumau ite ora ote iwi Maori; kite tukuna atu ki te Poari te mana whakahaere mo nga whenua me nga mea katoa a te Maori ka puta he painga mo ratou, tena ko au i runga i te mea he tamariki toku ahua he kuare kite whakahaere i era tv mea, riihitia ana c au oku whenua mo te 2 hereni me te 3 hereni mo te eka. Ko tetahi taha ano o te whenua c ki nei au i riihitia c au i runga i toku kuaretanga mo te 2s. me te 3s. mo te eka, i riro i tetahi o a matou tamariki, a ko te Kai-tiaki mo te Katoa tona kai-tiaki. Wahia ana c taua kai-tiaki te whenua kia toru wahanga, a riihitia ana eia aua wahanga c toru mo nga moni c 9s. 3d. mo te eka o tetahi, c Bs. mo te eka mo tetahi, a c 6s. mo te eka mo tetahi. Na ko nga whakahaere i mahia nei mo taua tamaiti tane, ka taea ano mo oku whenua mehemea i riro ma tetahi tangata matau c whakahaere. Xi taku, mehemea itetu he Poari penei me tenei c mau nei i roto i te Pire i taua wa, a mehemea i riro i taua Poari te tikanga mo aku whenua, a i panuitia kite ao katoa tera aku whenua ka akihanatia te riihi, kua mvi nga Pakeha o Poneke

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me etahi atu wahi ki reira, kua tahuri kite patupatu haere i a ratou utu, na wai a tau ana he utu nui mo aku whenua katoa. Na reira ka raea alu au kite Komiti kia aro nui te titiro kr tenei mea ma koutou c whiriwhiri; titiro mai ki au, titiro mai kite tamariki noa iho o aku whakaaro, ki toku kuare, ki toku kore whiwhi matauranga ; tifciro kite mea c takoto noa iho ana me i mohio au, a kihai i tupono; titiro kite iwi Maori katoa, c takoto mangere noa iho nei o ratou whenua, a kaore he mahi ke atu he korero anake mo te mea c karangatia nei c ratou he " homu ruuru" he aha ranei. Kei te tautoko au i te korero a Paratene Ngata kua puta atu nei ia ia kite Komiti; heoi ra me ngana tonu tatou a tera ano pea c oti tetahi mea hei painga mo te iwi Maori, ahakoa te wehe kia rua wahanga o matou kua bae mai nei kite aroaro ote Komiti—he Kawanatanga tetahi he Apitihana tetahi. Tangohia atu tenei mea i o matou ringaringa, mahia c koe ma matou, penei ano me te mahi a te papa ki tana tama.

Paeaiee, 28 o Oketopa, 1898. Tamahau Mahupuku : Ka haere tonu tana whai korero, ka mutu katahi, ka patairia. Tamahau Mahupuku : Kua whakaaturia c au te ahua ote iwi Maori i Niu Tireni nei. No te tau 1886 ka paahitia c tenei Whare tetahi Ture i te wa c tv ana ko Te Paranihi te Minita Maori ko Wi Pere te mema mo te Tai Rawhiti. He rahui ta taua Ture i nga whenua Maori. No te kitenga o nga iwi Maori ka aue. Tekau ma rima miriona nga eka whenua Maori c kiia ana c toe ana ki nga Maori i taua wa. No te tau 1887 ka tv ko Timi Kara hei mema mo te takiwa pooti ote Tai Rawhiti, ka rongo ia i te tangi a te iwi Maori puta noa te Motu nei, ka whakaurua c ia tetahi Pire poto ki roto kite Whare kia rite tonu ai te ture mo nga Maori me nga Pakeha. No te rongonga o nga Maori ki taua mea katahi ka tino kaha atu te tangi, ka ki ka mate rawa atu tenei whenua, rengarenga noa. No te tau 1888 ka tirohia c tenei Whare nga pitihana whakahe ate iwi Maori mo te Ture i paahitia nei i te tau 1886, a whakakorea ana taua Ture, a kaore i paahitia te Pire poto i whakaurua ra c Timi Kara kite Whare; a mai ano i taua wa tae noa mai ki naianei he tangi tonu he aue tonu te mahi a te iwi Maori. Ma ena korero c tautoko aku korero o nanahi: ara, kaore rawa tenei iwi te Maori c whakaae ki tetahi tikanga hou kia whakahaerea ra ano taua tikanga kia kite rawa ratou i nga painga i puta i taua tikanga katahi ano ratou ka whakaae. Kia pera rawa katahi ano ratou ka mohio kite pai o taua tikanga. Ite mea c rongo ana au kei te poto te taima o te Komiti i te nui o ana mahi, na reira kaore au c whakaroa i te Komiti, ka whakarapopototia c au aku korero, ara, me whakamutu ki tenei kupu na, ka tumanako tonu au me paahi tenei Pire mo te Tai Rawhiti me etahi wahi o te Tai Hauauru c tautoko ana i tenei Pire. 1180. Te Tiamana : E pai ana koe kia whakaurua nga whakatikatika i mahia c te hui ki Papawai ki roto kite Pire ? Tamahau Mahupuku: Ac. 1181. Te Tiamana: Xi te kore c whakaaetia etc Whare, ka pai koe kia paahitia te Pire ahakoa te kore uru o aua whakatikatika ? Tamahau Mahupuku : Xi te kore te Whare c whakaae ki aua menemana whakatikatika — otira kaore au i te kite take c kore ai c whakaaetia c ratou —heoi ka tumanako tonu au tera c whakatikatikaina c ratou te Pire i runga i ta ratou i kite ai hei ora mo te iwi Maori. Kei te pai au kite Pire, kei te whakaae au kia paahitia. Kua whakamarama atu au kite Komiti kite kitea eau he neera i roto i taku puutu ka whakahokia mai ai eauki te Whare—i whakaritea nei eau kite humeke—mana c mahi te puutu c patu te neera ki raro kia kore ai c ngau i au.

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APPENDICES.

APPENDIX A. [Native Lands Settlement and Administeation Bill.]

Rt. Hon. Te Hetana. TURE WHAKANOHONOHO XI TE TANGATA WHAKAHAERE HOKI I NGA WHENUA MAORI

HE PIRE E HUAINA ANA He Ture hei whakatakoto tikanga hei Whakanohonoho kite Tangata hei Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori. NOTEMEA no te tau o te Taimana Tiupiri o te kuinitanga o Kuini Wikitoria, ka tukuna atu c nga rangatira me etahi o nga tino tangata o te iwi Maori o Niu Tireni, he pitihana ki a te Kuini me te Paremete o Niu Tireni, he inoi atu mo nga toenga (c tata ana kite rima miriona nga eka), o nga whenua Maori c mau nei ki nga Maori kia rahuitia hei nohoanga hei oranga mo ratou i runga i tetahi tikanga c awhinatia ai ratou he tupato kei waiho kore whenua ratou: A notemea hei whakamaharatanga mo te pai o te whakahaere a te Kuini i te wa c tv ana ia hei kuini, a hei tohu hoki mo te nui o Tona atawhai me Tona ata whakarongo ki nga hiahia o Tona iwi Maori i Niu Tireni, c tau ai te ora ki runga ki a ratou, na reira c tika ana kia whakatutukitia nga kupu o taua pitihana, a kia whakaritea he tikanga c pai ake ai nga whakahaere mo o ratou whenua i runga i nga ritenga c whai ake nei: Na reira ka meingatia hei Ture c te Runanga Nui o Niu Tireni c noho huihui ana i roto i te Paremete, i runga ano i tona mana, ara: — 1. Te Ingoa Poto o tenei Ture ko "Te Ture Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, 1898," a me whakahaere tenei Ture i raro i te mana o te Minita mo nga Mea Maori, engari me whiriwhiri tahi raua ko te Minita mo nga Whenua mo nga mea c pa ana ki nga riihitanga me nga ruritanga o nga whenua c whakahaerea ana i raro i tenei Ture. 2. Ko tenei Ture kua wahia kia rua ona Wahanga, ara :— Wahanga I. Nga tikanga tuatahi—Tekiona toru tae noa ki tekiona tekau ma rua. Wahanga 11. Nga tikanga c whakahaerea ai nga Whenua Maori i roto i nga Takiwa Whenua Maori ma whakaaetia kia whakahaerea tenei Ture ki reira—Tekiona tekau ma toru tae noa ki tekiona wha tekau ma whitu. No. 3—l.

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WAHANGA I. nga tikanga tuatahi. Te Whakamaramatanga i nga tikanga o etahi kupu o tenei Ture me ona Taorotanga atu. 3. I roto i tenei Ture, mehemea kaore c takoto ke ana te aronga, — " Poari " tona tikanga he Poari Whenua Maori i whakaturia i runga i te mana o tenei Ture : " Takiwa " tona tikanga he takiwa whenua Maori i whakaturia i runga i te mana o tenei Ture : "Pakeha "tona tikanga he tangata no nga iwi ke atu ehara nei i te Maori: " Minita " tona tikanga ko te Minita mo nga Mea Maori: " Tangata Maori" tona tikanga he tangata Maori o Niu Tireni, a c uru ana ki taua kupu nga hawhe-kaihe me o ratou uri: " Whenua Maori" tona tikanga he whenua c puritia ana c nga Maori i raro i o ratou tikanga, ahakoa kua whakataua kaore ano ranei i whakataua nga take ki taua whenua c te Kooti Whenua Maori c tetahi atu mana ranei i ata whakaturia etc ture, a c uru ana ki nga tikanga o aua kupu nga whenua kua tuturu ki nga Maori i raro i tetahi Karauna karaati i raro ranei i tetahi atu pukapuka whakapumau take whenua; engari kaua c uru ki roto ki nga tikanga o aua kupu — (a.) Nga whenua i ata hokona c te Maori i te Karauna i tetahi Pakeha ranei; (b.) Nga whenua c taka ana ki raro c whakahaerea ana ranei i raro i nga tikanga o tetahi o nga Ture c whai ake nei, ara, — " Te Ture mo nga Takiwa Ngawha, 1881," " Te Ture mo nga Rahui Maori o te Tai-hauauru o Te Waipounamu me Whakatu, 1887," " Te Ture Taone Maori, ]895. : ' ".' c Ture Rahui Maori o te Takiwa o te Urewera, 1896." " Tangata nona te whenua" tona tikanga he Maori c whiwhi ana i tetahi whenua Maori i te wa i rokohanga c te mananga o tenei Ture, a c uru ana ki nga tikanga o aua kupu te Maori tera c whiwhi a muri atu i runga i te riiwhitanga tupapaku i runga ranei i te wira ki nga painga c puta ana i taua whenua i raro i te mana o tenei Ture: " Kua whakatakotoria " tona tikanga ko nga huarahi-whaka-haere i whakatakotoria i raro i tenei Ture. 4? Ko nga kupu katoa i roto i tenei Ture c pa ana ki nga Maori whai whenua ka kiia c pa ana ki nga Maori whai whenua i roto i te takiwa whenua Maori c ekengia ana c aua kupu. 5. Me pa a Wahanga 11. o tenei Ture ki nga takiwa whenua Maori anake kua whakaaetia kia whakahaerea tenei Ture ki reira i runga i nga ritenga kua whakaritea i raro iho nei.

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Nga Takiwa me nga Poari. 6. Ka ahei te Kawana i ia wa i ia wa, i runga i te Ota a tona Kaunihera, i ata perehitia ki roto kite Kahiti, kite whakatakoto i nga rohe o nga takiwa whenua Maori, a kite tapa i nga ingoa mo aua takiwa, i runga i tana i mahara ai he tika. 7. Me whakatu he Poari Whenua Maori mo ia takiwa whenua Maori ma whakaaetia tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki reira, a ka huaina he ingoa mo taua Poari ko "Te Poari Whenua Maori o (me tuhi ki konei te ingoa o te takiwa whenua Maori)," a kia tokorima nga mema o taua Poari, ara, — (I.) Ko te Komihana mo nga W 7 henua o te Karauna o te takiwa whenua i uru ai taua takiwa whenua Maori, te nuinga ranei o taua takiwa whenua Maori (ka huaina he ingoa mona i raro nei ko " te Komihana "); (2.) Kia tokorua nga mema, me Pakeha, ma te Kawana c whakatu i muri tata iho i te whakaaetanga o tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki roto ki taua takiwa; a (3.) Kia tokorua nga mema, me Maori, me whiriwhiri i roto i a ratou c nga tangata Maori o taua takiwa, a me whakatu i runga i te pooti i muri tata iho i te whakaaetanga kia whakahaerea tenei Ture ki roto ki to ratou takiwa: Engari kaore te tangata Maori c ahei kia tv hei mema mo nga Poari Whenua Maori maha atu i te kotahi. 8. Me utu nga mema o nga Poari W 7 henua Maori ki nga utu tau me era atu utu tera c whakaritea c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera: Engari kaua te Komihana c utua, a heoi ano nga moni c whakapaua i raro i tenei tekiona ko nga moni anake c whakaritea ana c te Paremete i roto i nga moni c takoto ana i roto i te Kaute mo nga Moni Whenua Maori o taua takiwa ka huaina i raro ake nei. 9. Me tv te Komihana hei mema mo te Poari Whenua Maori i runga i tona tuunga hei Komihana mo nga Whenua Karauna, a mo te taha ki era atu mema tokowha me pa enei tikanga c whai ake nei:— (1.) Kia toru tau te roa o te tino wa hei tuunga mo nga mema, engari ma mutu te mematanga o tetahi tangata ka taea noa atu ia te whakatu ano, te pooti ano ranei kia tv ano, hei mema. (2.) Ka ahei noa atu tetahi mema kite whakamutu i tona mematanga i runga i tana whakaatu-a-tuhituhi i hoatu ai kite Komihana. (3.) Ka ahei noa atu te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera kite whakamutu i tetahi mema mehemea kite whakaaro te Kawana kua puta he take c kore ai taua tangata c tika kia tv tonu hei mema, a i te mea ranei kua mau tetahi hara ona c kore ai ia c tika kia waiho tonu hei mema. (4.) Ka watea te nohoanga o tetahi mema i runga i te Poari ki te whakamutu taua tangata i tona mematanga, kite nukuhia ranei ia i tona nohoanga, kite mate ranei ia, ki ' te peekerapu ranei ia, kite whakataua ranei tetahi hara ki a ia c whiua ai ia kite whareherehere mo nga marama tekau ma rua nuku atu ranei, kite ngaro ranei ia i tona - nohoanga i nga tino huihuinga honohono c toru o te Poari,

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ara, mehemea c hara i te Poari ia i whakaae kia. ngaro atu; a ko ia nohoanga c watea pera ana ka kiia tera he wateatanga motuhake. (5.) Ko ia nohoanga c watea ana i runga i te paunga o nga tau kua whakaritea nei mo nga tino tuunga ka kiia he tino wateatanga tera. (6.) Ko ia nohoanga c watea ana, ahakoa he wateatanga motuhake he tino wateatanga ranei, me whakakapi c te mana nana i whakatu c te hunga ranei nana i pooti te mema kua whakamutu ra i tona nohoanga: Engari mehemea he Maori te mema kua whakamutu ra i a ia, a kaore i nuku atu i te tekau ma rua marama te roa o te wa c toe ana o tona tuunga, ka ahei te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera kite whakatu i tetahi Maori hei whakakapi i taua nohoanga. (7.) Ko ia wateatanga motuhake me whakakapi i roto i nga ra c rua tekau ma waru i muri iho i taua wateatanga, a ko te mema hove whakaturia ana hei whakakapi i taua nohoanga me tv mo te wa anake c toe ana o nga tau i whakaritea mo te mema kua whakamutu ra i a ia. (8.) Ka timata tonu atu nga mahi a te mema c whakaturia ana i te ra tonu i whakaturia ai ia. (9.) Ko nga pootitanga hei whakakapi i nga tino wateatanga nohoanga me tv i te rua tekau ma waru o nga ra i mua mai i te ra c watea ai aua nohoanga i runga i te paunga o nga tau c toru, a ko te mema i tv i runga i te pootitanga me timata ana mahi mema i te ra i pau ai taua toru tau. (10.) Ko ia pootitanga me whakahaere i runga ano i nga tikanga c mana ana mo te pootitanga o tetahi mema mo te Whare o Raro o te Paremete mo tetahi o nga takiwa pooti Maori. (11.) E kore " Te Ture Arai i nga Mema o te Paremete, 1878," c pa ki nga Mema Maori o te Poari. (12.) I runga ano i nga tikanga o tenei Ture me nga huarahiwhakahaere i raro i tenei Ture, ko nga pootitanga mema me tv i ia wa a me tv ki ia kainga i runga ano i nga tikanga tera c whakahaua c te Kawana mo te pootitanga tuatahi, a ko nga pootitanga o muri mai me riro ma te Poari Whenua Maori c whakahaere. 10. Mo runga i nga huihuinga katoa o te Poari Whenua Maori me pa nga tikanga c whai ake nei:— (1.) Kia toru nga mema (kia kotahi kia maha atu ranei o ratou me Maori) c whai korama ai. (2.) Ko te Komihana hei Tiamana, a me whai pooti whakatau ia ma riterite tonu nga pooti, kaua ia c whiwhi pooti whiriwhiri. (3.) Xi te ngaro te Komihana i tetahi huihuinga o te Poari, ka ahei ia kite whakatu i tetahi o nga mema Pakeha hei Tepute Tiamana mo taua huihuinga, a me whiwhi te Tepute Tiamana i te pooti whiriwhiri, a kite riterite tonu nga pooti, i te pooti whakatau hold. (45.) I raro i nga tikanga o tenei Ture me nga haere i raro i tenei Ture ma te Poari Whenua Maori ano c whakariterite ana mahi. 15—1. 3a.

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Whakanohonoho kite tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga 5 Whenua Maori.

Whakaaetanga o tenei Ture. 11. Kaore tenei Ture c whakaaetia kia whakahaerea ki roto ki tetahi takiwa whenua Maori kite kore c ata tonoa kia peratia c nga Maori no ratou nga whenua, a me whakaatu taua hiahia o ratou i runga i nga ritenga kua whakaritea i raro ake nei. 12. Ka ahei te rua tekau, te tokomaha atu ranei, tangata Maori whai whenua, kia rua tekau ma tahi tau te pakeke o ia tangata nuku atu ranei, i runga i te pitihana c whakaaturia ana nei tona ahua c te pukapuka nama tahi o te Kupu Apiti ki tenei Ture, kite tono kite Kawana kia panuitia c ia te whakaaetanga o tenei Ture ki roto ki to ratou takiwa, a hei reira me mana nga tikanga c whai ake nei:— (1.) Xi te marama kite Kawana kua eke kite rua tekau ma tahi nga tau o ia tangata o aua Maori, a he Maori whai whenua ratou, heoi me whakaatu c ia i runga i te panui i perehitia ki roto kite Gazette me te Kahiti te taenga atu o taua pitihana ki a ia, a me whakaatu hoki c ia ka whakaaetia taua mea kite kore c tae atu ki a ia he whakahe mo taua mea, me ata tuhituhi taua whakahe ki runga ki tetahi pukapuka c whakaaturia ana nei tona ahua c te pukapuka nama rua o te Kupu Apiti ki tenei Ture, a kaua c tokoiti iho i te rua tekau nga Maori whai whenua, ara, me tangata kua eke o ratou tau kite rua tekau ma tahi, ma ratou c tuhituhi taua whakahe, a me tae atu taua whakahe kite Whare o te Kawana, i Poneke, i te ra, i mua mai ranei o te ra, tera c ata whakaaturia c te Kawana i roto i tana panui, ara, kaua c roa atu i te rua tekau ma waru nga ra i muri iho i te panuitanga tuatahi i roto i te Gazette me te Kahiti. (2.) Xi te tae atu taua pukapuka whakahe, a kite marama kite - Kawana kua eke kite rua tekau ma tahi nga tau o ia tangata o aua Maori, a he tangata whai whenua ratou, heoi me whakahaere c ia kia pooti nga Maori katoa o taua takiwa mo runga i taua putake, ara, me whakaae ranei kaua ranei c whakaaetia tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki roto ki taua takiwa, a ko taua putake me tuku ma te taha i maha ake o ratou pooti i tuhia i taua pootitanga c whakatau. (3.) Ko te ritenga c whakahaerea ai taua pootitanga me whai ano i te tikanga c whakahaerea nei nga pootitanga mema mo nga takiwa pooti Maori o te Whare o Raro o te Paremete. (4.) Xi te kore c ata whakahengia te pitihana i runga i nga tikanga kua whakahuatia ake nei, aki te ata whakahengia ranei taua pitihana, heoi kite tau i te nuinga o nga pooti i pootitia me whakaae tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki roto ki to ratou takiwa, hei reira me panui taua whakataunga c te Kawana ki roto kite Gazette me te Kahiti hei whakaatu, kua whakaaetia tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki roto ki taua takiwa ; hei reira, timata atu i te ra tuatahi i panuitia ai .» taua whakaaturanga ki roto kite Gazette me te Kahiti, ka kiia kua whakaaetia tenei Ture ki roto ki taua takiwa.

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(5.) Xi te tau i te nuinga o nga pooti i pootitia me kaua tenei Ture c whakaaetia kia whakahaerea ki roto ki to ratou takiwa, hei reira me panui c te Kawana ki roto kite Gazette me te Kahiti kua kore tenei Ture c whakaaetia kia whakahaerea ki roto ki taua takiwa, a hei reira kaore he pitihana hove tono ana ano kia whakaaetia tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki roto ki taua takiwa c tahuritia iho c te Kawana kia pau ra ano nga marama c ono o muri iho i te pootitanga tuatahi. (6.) Ko te panui a te Kawana i roto i te Gazette me te Kahiti ranei c whakaatu ana kua whakaaetia kua kore ranei c whakaaetia tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki roto ki tetahi takiwa whenua Maori, koia tena te tino tohu pono o te tika o taua mea, me te tohu i rite katoa i mana katoa nga whakahaerenga o mua atu i taea ai te tutukitanga o taua mea. (7.) Ka ahei te Kawana iia wa iia wa, i runga i te Ota Kaunihera i panuitia ki roto kite Gazette me te Kahiti, kite hanga huarahi-whakahaere i tana ikite ai he tika hei whakatutuki i nga tikanga o tenei tekiona kia tika ai te whakahaere o nga pootitanga i whakahuatia ake nei. WAHANGA 11. WHAKAHAEREANGA MO NGA WHENUA MAORI I ROTO I NGA TAKIWA WHENUA MAORI KUA ATA WHAKAAETIA TENEI TURE KIA WHAKAHAEREA XI REIRA. Whakawhiiohinga. 13. 1 muri tonu iho i te whakaaetanga kia whakahaerea tenei Ture ki roto ki tetahi takiwa whenua Maori hei reira ka tau nga whenua Maori katoa o taua takiwa i runga i te mana o tenei Ture ki te Poari Whenua Maori o taua takiwa pupuri ai hei whenua mona i runga i te ritenga fee-simple, haunga ia nga mokete, nga riana, me nga whaitaketanga c pa tika ana i te lure ki aua whenua, a ko aua whenua me pupuri me whakahaere c te Poari Whenua Maori hei painga mo nga Maori no ratou aua whenua i runga i nga tikanga kua whakaritea i raro nei. 14. Mo runga i nga tikanga o te tekiona i runga ake nei kua whakamanaia a kua whakahaua te Kai-rehita Takiwa Whenua, ma tonoa c te Minita kia mahi pera, kite whakahaere i nga mahi katoa c taea ai te whakaemi me te whakahoki mai ki a ia i nga pukapuka taitara whenua, c taea ai hoki te whakaputa c ia nga pukapuka taitara hou, me te tuhituhi ki roto ki ana pukapuka i nga taitara o te Poari ki aua whenua, i runga ano i nga tikanga kua whakatakotoria. 15. Kaua c utua he moni mo nga Inihua i raro i " Te Ture Whakawhiti Whenua, 1885," ma rehitatia he taitara ma te Poari mo tetahi riihi i raro i tenei Ture. Tukunga. 16. Ko nga whenua kua tau kite Poari Whenua Maori me tuku c te Poari i runga i te riihi mo nga tau (kaua c nuku atu i

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Whakanohonoho kite tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga 7 Whenua Maori.

te rua tekau ma tahi i te tukunga kotahi), mo nga moni reti, me nga tikanga c whakahoutia ai nga riihi (engari kaua c nuku atu i te rua tekau ma tahi nga tau o te whakahoutanga kotahi), mo te noho, mo te whakapai, mo te wariutanga ranei i nga whakapainga, me era atu mea kua whakatakotoria, ara, i runga ano i nga huarahi-whakahaere, c maharatia ana c te Poari he tika. 17. Kaore he whenua kua tau kite Poari c tukuna i runga i te hoko i runga ranei i tetahi tikanga c whai mana ai te hoko, heoi te huarahi c taea ai te pera me whai i nga tikanga kua whakaritea i raro nei. 18. I runga i tana whakahaerenga i nga whenua kua tau ki a ia me whiwhi te Poari Whenua Maori, i runga ano i nga huarahiwhakahaere kua whakaakotoria, i nga mana motuhake c whai ake nei, ara, koia enei : — (1.) Me ahei te Poari kite ata wehe i te whenua Maori hei mahinga hei kainga noho mo nga Maori no ratou te whenua, i runga i nga ritenga me nga tikanga c maharatia ana c te Poari he tika. (2.) Me ahei te Poari kite ata wehe i etahi wahi o nga whenua kua tau ki a ia hei tanumanga tupapaku, hei tuunga kura, hei tuunga whare karakia, me era atu mea c mahia ana hei painga mo te iwi katoa. (3.) Ahakoa nga tikanga o tekiona tekau ma ono o tenei Ture ka ahei noa atu te Poari. kite wehe i etahi whenua a kite riihi atu i aua whenua hei wahi mahinga pata, kirimi, pekana, me era atu mea pera, mo nga tau, me nga moni reti, i runga ano i nga kawenata me nga ritenga, c whakaaetia ana c te Minita, a c maharatia ana c te Poari he tika. (4.) Ina tae kite wa c tukutukuna ai nga whenua Maori me ahei te Poari kite matua whakariterite i nga tono whenua a nga Maori no ratou te whenua a kia rite era katahi ka whakarite i nga tono whenua a nga tangata ra waho. (5.) Me ahei te Poari kite tuku whenua ki a te Kuini hei mahinga mama i raro i " Te Ture Mama, 1891." (6.) Me ahei te Poari kite whakapau i etahi moni hei whakatakoto, hei hanga, hei whakapai i nga rori i nga tiriti ranei, hei mahi i nga ruri, hei whakatuwhera i nga whenua kia taea ai te whakanohonoho kite tangata, a hei mahi i etahi atu mea c whakamanangia ana c tenei Ture c nga huarahi-whakahaere ranei i whakaputaina i raro i tenei Ture. Engari me mahi nga ruri katoa a me hanga nga rori me nga tiriti katoa i raro i te mana me nga huarahi-wha-kahaere o te Tari Ruri o te koroni. (7.) Me ahei te Poari kite whakahaere i etahi atu mana kua whakatakotoria. 19. (1.) Ina tupono he whenua kua tau kite Poari ka ahei noa atu te tango i taua whenua mo nga mahi a te iwi katoa c whakaaturia nei c tekiona rua rave toru tekau ma rima o "Te Ture Whenua, 1892," engari me utu taua whenua c tangohia ra, penei ano me te whenua c tangohia ana mo nga mahi a te iwi katoa a c utua ana i

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8 Whakanohono kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori.

raro i te mana o " Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, 1894 " ; a hei huarahi c tino tutuki ai nga ritenga o tenei tekiona me pa nga tikanga c whai ake nei:— (a.) Ko nga whenua katoa kua tau kite Poari ka kiia he whenua era kua uru ki roto ki nga tikanga o "Te Ture mo nga, Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, 1894," a ka kiia he whenua era kua tuturu rawa kite Poari i runga i te ritenga fee-simple, (b.) I runga i nga tono whaka-utu katoa me tv ko te Poari hei kai-tono, a ko nga moni katoa c whakaaetia ana hei whaka-utu me utu atu kite Poari. (c.) Ko nga moni whaka-utu katoa c utua ana kite Poari me whakahaere i runga i etahi tikanga c whai initareti ai c whai pangia ranei mo nga Maori no ratou te whenua i runga ano i nga ritenga kua whakatakotoria, a ko nga hua c puta ana me whakahaere i runga ano i nga ritenga c whakahaerea ai nga hua o te whenua i tangohia ra, ano kaore i tangohia taua whenua. Ko nga tikanga o tekiona rua tekau ma waru me rua tekau ma iwa o tenei Ture me pa ki aua moni whaka-utu. (d.) I runga i nga ritenga o tenei tekiona, ko enei kupu "mahi a te iwi katoa," koia ano tera ona tikanga ko nga tikanga c whakaaturia ana mo aua kupu i roto i "Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, 1894." (2.) Kaua he kupu o tenei tekiona o tetahi atu wahi ranei o tenei Ture c arai c whakarereke ranei i nga tikanga o tekiona iwa tekau ma rua tae noa ki iwa tekau ma rima o "Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, 1894," me nga tekiona whitu tekau tae noa ki whitu tekau ma rua o " Te Ture Kooti Whenua Maori, 1894," c pa ana ki nga rori. 20. Hei huarahi c tutuki ai nga tikanga o tenei Ture c pa ana ki nga tukunga me nga whakahaerenga o nga whenua kua tau kite Poari Whenua Maori, engari kaua mo etahi atu mahi, ka kiia kua wetekina nga here katoa, me nga tikanga arai katoa i tau ki runga ki aua whenua i tetahi Turo, i tetahi Karauna karaati, i tetahi ota wehewehe, i tetahi atu tv pukapuka taitara ranei. 21. Ka pera ano te mana whakahaere o te Poari Whenua Maori ki runga ki nga whenua kua tau ki a ia me te mana whakahaere o te Kooti Whenua Maori, mo runga i te mahi wehewehe, whakatu kairiiwhi, whakatau i te nui o te paanga o ia tangata, me te whakatu kai-tiaki mo era o nga tangata whenua c noho hapa ana i te ture. Kehita. 22. Me hanga a me tiaki c te Poari Whenua Maori tetahi pukapuka rehita mo nga poraka whenua Maori i roto i te takiwa o taua Poari, hei whakaatu— (1.) I nga eka i nga rohe me te ahua o ia poraka; (2.) I te ahua o nga tuku me nga riihi i mahia mo ia poraka; (3.) I nga ingoa o nga Maori o ia poraka, i nga hea o ia tangata i roto i te poraka, me te ra me te tau i whiwhi ai ia Maori i tona hea. (4.) I era atu mea kua whakatakotoria;

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Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga 9 Whenua Maori.

23. (1.) Ko taua pukapuka rehita, tetahi kape ranei o taua mea, me tuwhera hei tirotirohanga ma te katoa, kaua c utua te tirohanga, a me takoto taua pukapuka ki tetahi wahi tika i roto i taua takiwa i nga haora c whakaritea ana c te Poari Whenua Maori. (2.) .Via te Poari Whenua Maori i ia wa i ia wa c tuhi nga kupu mo roto i te pukapuka rehita c tika ana mo tera mahi kia mau ai nga whakawhitiwhitinga o nga tangata o nga whenua, a kia tika tonu ai te takoto o nga whenua o roto i te rehita. 24. (I.) Hei tona wa c whakaritea ai iia hawhe tau me tuku atu te pukapuka rehita ki tetahi hunga whaimana tino matau, mana c uiui c tino whakatau a c ata whakamana kia tika ai nga tuhituhi katoa o roto i taua rehita c pa ana ki nga Maori o ia poraka me o ratou hea i roto i ia poraka, a i runga i nga tikanga o taua mahi ma taua tangata c apiti atu etahi kupu kite pukapuka rehita, c whakatikatika ranei etahi kupu o roto i te pukapuka rehita, kia tino tika ai te takoto o nga korero o roto i taua mea mo nga Maori o ia poraka me o ratou hea i roto i ia poraka puta noa te hawhe tau i mua tonu atu. (2.) Ko te Kooti Whenua Maori taua hunga whaimana, ko tetahi ranei o ona Tiati, a kite whakakorea atu te Kooti Whenua Maori, kaati ko tetahi, ko etahi, atu tangata totika ranei, c whakaturia ana c te Kawana i ia wa i ia wa, ma oti marire i a ia te whiriwhiri nga kupu a te Poari Whenua M aori i whakaputa ai mo runga i taua mea. (3.) Me whaimana taua hunga whaimana kite uiui a kite whakatau i nga tangata mo ratou tetahi whenua Maori, a kite whakatau hoki i nga hea mo ia tangata i roto i taua whenua. 25- Ko taua pukapuka rehita, ma oti te whakamana, koia tera te tino tohu pono o te tika o nga ingoa o nga Maori o ia poraka me o ratou hea i roto i ia poraka i te hawhe tau i whakaputaina ai mona taua tiwhikete whakamana. Te Whakahaerenga o nga Moni c puta ana i nga whenua. 26. Ko nga moni reti, moni paru, moni whii, me era atu moni c puta ana i nga whenua kua tau kite Poari Whenua Maori i raro i nga tikanga o tenei Ture me utu atu kite Poari, a, i runga ano i nga tikanga kua whakatakotoria, me whakahaere aua moni c te Poari, — (1.) Tuatahi, hei whakaea i te utu o te whakahaerenga o tenei Ture i roto i tona takiwa me nga whenua kua tau kite Poari; (2.) Tuarua, hei whakaea i nga moni c tika ana kia utua i runga i tetahi mokete whaimana, riana, moni taunaha ranei c eke ana ki runga ki taua whenua ki. runga ranei i nga moni c puta ana i taua poraka. (3.) Tuatoru, me utu atu nga toenga ki nga Maori no ratou nga whenua i runga ano i te rarahi i te ririki ranei o nga hea o ia tangata c whakaaturia ana c te rehita ma oti taua mea te whakamana. 27. Ko te whakahaerenga me te utunga o aua moni me whakarapopoto a me mahi ki tetahi pukapuka i nga wa c whakaritea ana i ia hawhe tau.

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28. Haunga ia mehemea ka whaia i runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, c kore c taea c te Maori whai whenua te hoko, te mokete, te riihi, te taunaha, te tuku ranei i runga i tetahi atu tikanga, i tona paanga ki tetahi whenua kua tau kite Poari i nga moni ranei c puta ana i ona paanga, heoi anake te tuku c taea c ia ko te tuku a wira ki tetahi atu Maori. 29. E kore rawa te paanga o tetahi Maori ki tetahi whenua kua tau kite Poari kite moni ranei c puta ana i taua whenua, c taea te hoko, te tango, te muru ranei, hei whakaea i te nama a taua Maori, a c kore ano hoki c taea te muru atu ma peekeraputia taua Maori. 30. Ko ia Maori mehemea kua nuku atu i te tekau ma ono ona tau, ahakoa kua marenatia kaore ano ranei, — (1.) Ka ahei noa atu kite hoatu i te rihiiti whaimana mo nga moni c puta ana ki a ia mo tona paanga ki tetahi whenua kua tau kite Poari, ma hoatu ki a ia aua moni i te wa i tuhia ai eia taua rihiiti; a (2.) Ka ahei hoki ia, i runga i tetahi pukapuka i hainatia c ia ki te aroaro o tetahi Kaiwhakawa Tei Pi, o tetahi roia o te Hupirimi Kooti, o tetahi Pohimahita ranei, kite whakamana i tetahi Maori whai whenua, kua eke ona tau ki te rua tekau ma tahi, kite tango mai a kite hoatu i nga rihiiti whaimana mo nga moni c tika ana kia puta mai i te wa i hoatu ai taua pukapuka whakamana; engari ka tino mana kore taua pukapuka mehemea ka pa taua mea ki etahi moni puta-a-tau, a i te wa i hoatu ai taua pukapuka whakamana kaore ano i taka te ra c whakaputaina ai aua moni. Engari kaua lie utunga i whakaputaina c te Poari i raro i tenei tekiona c whakahengia c raruraru ranei i runga i te mea kaore ano te Maori nona te whenua i eke kite tekau ma ono tau te pakeke, haunga ia mehemea i ata tae atu he pukapuka hei whakaatu atu i taua mea kite Poari. 31. Ina tupono kaore ano i eke kite rua tekau ma tahi nga tau o tetahi Maori whai whenua, a ma tupono he porangi, he turoro ranei ia, me pa enei tikanga c whai ake nei: — (1.) Ka ahei te Poari Whenua Maori i ia wa i ia wa kite whakatu i tetahi tangata hei tango atu i nga moni c tika ana kia utua atu ki aua tv Maori whai whenua, a ka ahei hoki te Poari kite whakamutu i te tuunga o taua tangata i whakaturia ra c ia. (2.) Ka ahei noa atu taua tangata i whakaturia ra, i runga i tana huarahi i kite ai, kite whakahaere i aua moni hei oranga, hei akonga ranei kite kura i aua tv Maori whai whenua. (3.) Ko te riihiiti a taua tangata mo nga moni c tika ana kia utua ki aua tv Maori whai whenua, koia tena te mea mana c whakaatu te eanga o te taha kite Poari, a kaore he tikanga kite Poari mo te whakahaerenga o aua moni a muri atu. (4.) I te wa kaore ano i whakaturia he tangata pera ka ahei noa atu te Poari kite whakahaere i nga mana tera c hoatu ki taua tangata ma whakaturia ia i raro i tenei tekiona.

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Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga 11 Whenua Maori.

Moni tuku-a-nama. 32. Xi te puta he take c meatia ai kia whakapaua c te Poari Whenua Maori etahi moni hei whakatakoto, hei hanga, hei whakapai ranei i nga rori i nga tiriti ranei, hei whakahaere ruri ranei, hei whakatuwhera ranei i etahi whenua hei whakanohonohoanga kite tangata, me pa nga tikanga c whai ake nei:— (1.) Me ahei te Poari Whenua Maori kite tuku atu kite Minita i tetahi pukapuka hei whakaatu atu i nga mahi c meatia ana kia mahia, me te rahi o nga moni c oti ai aua mahi, a me te tono atu kia tukuna-a-nama atu etahi moni ki a ratou kia rite te rahi ki nga utu o nga mahi c meatia ana kia mahia. (2.) Xi te marama te Minita, ma oti te whiriwhiri c raua ko te Minita mo nga Whenua, kite pai o nga mahi c meatia ra kia mahia a kite tika hoki o nga moni c meatia ana kia whakapaua ki aua mahi, ka ahei ia, i runga i tana i whakaaro ai, kite whakahau kia tukuna-a-nama atu kite Poari nga moni c tonoa ra, etahi moni iti iho ranei, a me whakarite aua moni c te Paremete i roto i nga Moni mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni: Engari hui katoa te moni c taea te tuku-a-nama atu i raro i tenei tekiona kite Poari kotahi i roto i te tau kotahi kaua c nuku atu i te rima mano pauna. (3.) Ko taua moni i tukuna-a-nama atu ra, hui atu ki tona initareti c rima pauna mo te rau i te tau kotahi, me tau i runga i te mana o tenei Ture hei taunaha ki runga ki nga moni c puta ana i nga whenua i whiwhi i nga painga o nga mahi i oti i taua moni, a ko taua taunaha me whakariterite kia rite ai ano te rahi te iti ranei kite painga i whiwhi ai ia poraka i aua mahi. (4.) Ko taua moni i tukuna-a-nama atu ra, hui atu ki tona initareti kua whakahuatia ake nei, me whakaea i runga i nga tikanga c mau ake nei. 33. Ina tupono, i te wa i whakaaetia ai tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki roto ki tetahi takiwa whenua Maori, tera kei reira tetahi whenua kua tau kite Poari, kua ekengia c tetahi nama moni kua whakamanaia c te ture i runga i te tikanga mokete, riana, taunaha ranei, tera ranei kei te tamia nga Maori no ratou taua whenua c etahi nama kaore ano i pungaia, kaati me pa enei tikanga motuhake c whai ake nei ki aua tv whenua : — (1.) Hei tikanga c taea ai te whakaea o aua tv raruraru me aua tv nama, me ahei nga Maori no ratou te whenua kite tono-a-pukapuka atu kia tukuna-a-nama atu he moni ma ratou i raro i tenei Ture, me te whakaatu atu ano hoki me punga aua moni c tonoa ra ki nga moni c puta ana, tera ranei c puta i taua whenua i etahi atu whenua ranei o ratou. (2.) Hei reira me tuku atu c te Poari taua tono kite Minita, me te whakaatu atu ano hoki i te rahi o nga moni c ea ai aua mate, i te ahua o aua raruraru me aua nama, i te takei nama ai aua Maori, i te rahi o te moni c puta ana,

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12 Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori.

tera ranei c puta i te whenua, a i te rahinga i te korenga ranei c rahi aua moni c puta ra hei punga mo te moni c tonoa ana kia tukua-a-naina atu. (3.) Me tuku c te Minita taua tono me taua ripoata kite Huperitini o te Tari Tuku Nama a te Kawanatanga ki nga Kai-nohonoho Whenua, a ma taua tangata c whakatakoto atu taua mea kite aroaro o te Poari Tuku Nama ki nga Kai-nohonoho Whenua, a ma taua Poari c uiui c hurihuri c whakaputa he kupu mo taua mea kite Minita i runga i ta taua hunga i whakaaro ai he tika. (4.) Ka mutu te hurihuri a te Minita i taua ripoata me taua kupu tohutohu, kite marama ki a ia c rahi ana te punga c homai ana mo aua moni c tonoa ra, a i tika te ekenga o aua raruraru me aua nama ki runga ki aua Maori, a c tika ana kia utua aua mea. heoi ka ahei ia i runga i tana i whakaaro ai he tika kite whakahau kia tukuna-a-nania atu nga moni c tonoa ra, etahi moni iti iho ranei, a me whakarite aua moni c te Paremete i roto i nga Moni mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni: Engari hei runga anake i taua kupu tohutohu c tukuna-a-nama atu ai he moni, a ko tetahi hold hui katoa nga moni c taea te tuku-a-nama i raro i tenei tekiona ki te Poari Whenua Maori kotahi i roto i te tau kotahi kaua c nuku atu i te rima mano pauna mo nga raruraru mokete, a kaua c nuku atu i te kotahi mano mo nga nama kaore i pungaia. (5.) Ko te moni i whakamanaia ra kia tukuna-a-nama atu me hoatu kite Poari Whenua Maori, a ma te Poari c whakahaere atu taua moni hei whakaea i nga mokete i nga nama ranei. (6.) Ko te moni puku i tukuna-a-nama atu ra, hui atu ki tona initareti c rima pauna i te rau i te tau kotahi, me tau i runga i te mana o tenei Ture hei taunaha ki runga ki nga moni c puta ana i te whenua i hoatu hei punga mo taua moni puku, a me whakaea i runga i nga tikanga c mau ake nei. Whakaeanga o nga Moni i Tukuna-a-nama atu me ona Initareti. 34. Mo runga i nga whakaeanga o nga moni i tukuna-a-nama atu kua whakahuatia ake nei, me ona initareti, me pa enei tikanga c whai ake nei:— (1.) Ko te moni puku i tukuna-a-nama atu, hui atu ki tona initareti, i runga i te rima pauna mo ia rau i ia tau, me riro ma nga hua c puta ana i te whenua i pungaia ai aua moni c whakaea a ma te Poari c utu atu kite Minita mo nga Moni mo te taha ki a te Kuini i ia hawhe tau, me riterite tonu nga moni o aua utunga, a pau noa nga tau i whakaritea i waenganui i te Poari me te Minita, engari kaua aua tau c nuku atu i to wha tekau ma rua, a ko te utunga tuatahi me utu a te paunga o nga marama c ono i muri iho i te ra i timata ai aua tau i whakatitea ra. « 16—1. 3a.

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Whakanohonoho kite tangata Whahahaere hoki i nga 13 Whenua Maori.

(2.) Ko aua tau i whakaritea ra me timata i te ra i whakaritea ai hei peratanga, engari kaua c nuku atu i te wha tau i muri iho i te ra i tukuna-a-nama atu ai taua moni puku. Engari mo te wa i waenganui o te ra i hoatu ai te nama me te ra i timata ai nga tau i whakaritea ra, me utu initareti ano te Poari i runga i te whakahau a te Minita (engari kaua c nuku atu i te hawhe tau te tatahi o ia utunga initareti) ara kia rima pauna i ia tau mo ia rau pauna o te moni puku i tukuna-a-nama atu ra. (3.) Ko ia utunga me riro hei whakaea mo te moni puku tetahi taha mo te initareti tetahi taha. a me kimi te maha o nga moni hei utu i roto i tetahi tepara-whika tera c whakatakotoria c nga huarahi-whakahaere i raio i tenei Ture. (4.) Ko aua tepara-whika me mahi i runga ano i te ahua me nga ritenga i mahia ai te tepara-whika c mau nei i te Kupu Apiti Tuarua ki " Te Ture Tuku Nama Moni ki nga Kainoho Wheuua, 1894." (5.) Ko nga utunga katoa me nga initareti c utua ana c te Poari, ma tae atu kite Minita mo nga Moni, me utu atu c ia ki te Kai-tiaki mo te Katoa, a me whakatakakoto ki tetahi kaute me tapa tona ingoa ko "Te Kaute o nga Moni c Tukuna-a-mama ana hei Tiaki hei Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori" (ka huaina he ingoa poto mona i raro ake nei ko " Te Kaute mo nga Moni c Tukuna-a-nama ana ki nga Maori "). (6.) Ko nga moni katoa o roto o te Kaute mo nga Moni c Tukuna-a-nama ana ki nga Maori me whakahaere c te Kaitiaki mo te Katoa, ki runga ki nga huarahi kua whakamanaia c whiwhi ai i te initareti nui rawa c taea ana i taua wa, engari me ahei noa atu te Minita mo nga Moni i ia wa i ia wa kite tiki atu i aua moni hei whakaea haere i nga moni puku me nga initareti o nga tipenetua i whakaputaina i raro i nga tikanga mo aua mea c mau ake nei, a hei whakaea hoki i nga moni i pau i te whakahaerenga me te whakaputanga o aua tipenetua. Nga Tipenetua. 35. (1). Hei huarahi c rite ai he moni hei tuku-a-nama i raro i tenei Ture, ka ahei noa atu te Minita mo nga Moni, i nga wa c tika ana hei peratanga, kite tiki atu i nga toenga o nga moni kei roto i nga kaute c whakahuatia nei nga ingoa i Wahi VIII. o " Te Ture mo nga Moni Puta-a-tau kite Kawanatanga, 1891," kei roto ranei i etahi atu kaute moni a te iwi c taea ana i runga i nga ritenga o te Ture te whakahaere ki runga ki nga punga c whakamanaia ana c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera, kite tiki atu ranei i etahi o nga Moni mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, kite nama moni ranei i tetahi peeke, i tetahi atu tari whakahaere moni ranei, i tetahi tangata ranei, otira i runga i tetahi i katoa ranei o aua huarahi. (2.) Ka riro ko te Ture tonu nei te mana mo nga tangata kei a ratou c whakahaere ana nga moni c whakahuatia nei i roto i tenei tekiona c whaimana ai ratou kite tuku-a-nama i aua moni. ,

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14 Whakanohonoho kite tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori.

36. Hei punga mo nga moni c namangia ana i raro i tenei Ture c te Minita mo nga Moni, ka ahei ia kite hanga a kite whakaputa i etahi tipenetua mo aua moni i namangia ra, a me pa enei tikanga c whai ake nei ki runga ki aua tipenetua:— (1.) Ko te ahua o nga korero me te nui o te moni mo roto i aua tipenetua hei ta te Minita mo nga Moni c whakarite ai, a ma raua tahi ko te Tumuaki Kai-whakahaere Kai-tirotiro i nga Moni Kawanatanga c haina aua mea. (2.) Me utu aua tipenetua kite kai-hari, a me whai initareti engari kaua c nuku atu i te wha pauna i te tau mo ia rau pauna. (3.) Ka taea aua tipenetua te whakahou i ia wa i ia wa mo nga tau c maharatia ana c te Minita mo nga Moni c tika ana. (4.) Ko te wahi hei utunga i aua tipenetua, ara, te moni puku me te initareti, hei te kainga ano c whakahuatia ana i roto i aua tipenetua. (5.) Me honohono tonu nga nama o aua tipenetua, kia kore ai c rite tahi nga nama o ia tipenetua. (6.) Ko nga moni puku me nga initareti c tika ana kia utua i runga i aua tipenetua ka kiia c tenei Ture he taunaha c eke ana ki runga i nga Moni Topu a te Kawanatanga a ma aua moni c whakaea; engari hei huarahi c rite ai he moni hei whakaea nga i aua mea ma taka te ra hei peratanga me tiki atu c te Minita mo nga Moni i nga moni c takoto ana i te Kaute o nga Moni c Tukuna-a-nama ana ki nga Maori, a me whaimana te Kai-tiaki mo te Katoa, i runga i te mana o tenei Ture, i ia wa i ia wa kite hoatu kite Minita i nga moni o roto i taua kaute c hiahiatia ana c ia mo taua mahi whakaea haere i nga tipenetua, hei whakaea haere ranei i nga moni i pau i te whakaputanga me te whakahaerenga i aua tipenetua. (7.) Ko ia tipenetua c whakaatu ake ana nga korero o runga i whakaputaina ia i raro i te mana o tenei Ture, ka kiia tera mo te taha kite kai-pupuri i taua mea, he tipenetua i whakaputaina tikatia i raro i tenei Ture ; a kaore he tikanga o te kai-pupuri-tipenetua c kimi ai c uiui ai kua whakahaerea katoatia kaore ano ranei i whakahaerea katoatia nga mana kua hoatu nei c tenei Ture hei whakaputa i taua tipenetua. (8.) Ka ahei te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera iia wa i ia wa ki te panui kua whakawhitingia a katoa etahi ranei o aua tipenetua hei stock tuturu c whakaputaina ana i raro i " Te Ture Whakatopu Stock o Niu Tireni, 1877," i raro ranei i "Te Ture Whakatopu Stock, 1884." (9) Ko nga moni katoa c pau ana i te namanga moni i runga i aua tipenetua, i pau ranei i te whakawhitinga i aua mea hei stock, me riro ma nga Moni mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni c utu i runga i te mana o tenei Ture, engari me whakahoki aua moni ki taua kaute a te wa tuatahi tonu c taea ai c nga moni o roto i te Kaute o nga Moni c Tukunanama ana ki nga Maori. (10.) Ko nga moni i namangia i runga i aua tipenetua me hoatu

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Whakanohonoho kite tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga 15 Whenua Maori.

kite kaute mo nga Moni mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni takoto ai, engari heoi ano te mahi c whakahaerea ai aua moni ko te tukutuku nama anake i raro i tenei Ture i runga i nga ritenga kua whakahuatia ake nei. Whakaotiotinga o nga Tuku c tarewa ana. 37. A te wa c whakaaetia ai tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki roto ki tetahi takiwa whenua Maori, kite tupono tera kei te whakahaerea tetahi hoko ma te Kuini o tetahi poraka whenua Maori o roto i taua takiwa, kua tau kite Poari Whenua Maori, ka taea te whakaoti o taua hoko engari me riro ko te Poari te hunga mana c tuku atu te whenua, ahakoa c takoto ke ana te aronga o etahi kupu i runga ake nei; a ki te puta te tiwhikete a te Minita hei whakaatu he pono i te haere tonu taua hoko i taua wa ka waiho tena hei tohu mo te tika o taua mahi. 38. A te wa c whakaaetia ai tenei Ture kia whakahaerea ki roto ki tetahi takiwa whenua Maori, kite tupono tera tetahi hoko, riihi, tetahi atu tv tuku ranei, mo tetahi whenua Maori kua tau kite Poari Whenua Maori o roto i taua takiwa, kei te whakahaerea tikatia i runga i te ture c tetahi tangata noa iho, a he pono tonu no muri iho i te mananga o "Te Ture Kooti Whenua Maori, 1894," i timataria ai taua tuku, a he pono tonu kei te whakahaerea tonutia taua tuku a he pono tonu hoki kua oti tetahi wahi o taua tuku, hei reira me pa enei tikanga c whai ake nei:— (1.) I roto i nga marama c rua o muri iho i te ra i whakaaetia ai tenei Ture ki roto ki tetahi takiwa, ka ahei tetahi o nga tangata i uru ki taua tuku (ehara nei ia i tetahi o nga Maori nona te whenua) kite tuhituhi atu i tetahi pukapuka kite Poari Whenua Maori hei whakaatu i te ahua o taua tuku, i te whenua i pa ai taua tuku, i te rahi o te wahi o taua tuku kua oti, a i tona hiahia kite tino whakaoti rawa i taua tuku. (2.) Ko ia tuku i tae he whakaaturanga pera mona ka taea te whakaoti c te Poari Whenua Maori mo te taha ki nga Maori no ratou te whenua i roto i nga marama tekau ma rua i muri iho i taua whakaaetanga, ahakoa c takoto ke ana te aronga o etahi kupu i runga ake nei. (3.) Ate paunga ote wa kua whakaritea ake nei hei whakaotinga i tetahi tuku, ka taea c te Kooti Whenua Maori, engari kite whakakorea taua Kooti, ma tetahi atu hunga whaimana i whakaturia c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera, te kimi me te whakatau, i runga i te tikanga wawahi i te whenua i runga ranei i tetahi atu tikanga, i nga paanga o nga taha c rua i uru ki taua tuku. (4.) Kaua rawa c ahei te whakariro ke i te tikanga o nga kupu o tenei tekiona hei huarahi c taea ai te whakamana me te whakaoti o tetahi tuku c kore nei c taea te whakaoti tika i runga i te ture me i kore i paahitia tenei Ture. 39. Ko nga moni katoa c riro atu ana i te Poari Whenua Maori i runga i tetahi hoko i tetahi atu tuku ranei i raro i tetahi o nga tekiona c rua o mua tonau ake i tenei me tiaki a me whakahaere hei painea mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua i runga i nga ritenga kua whakatakotoria, a ko nga moni hua c puta ana i aua moni me whakahaere i runga ano i nga ritenga* c whakahaerea ai nga moni hua tera c puta i taua whenua me i kore taua hoko tetahi atu tuku ranei.

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(2.) Me pa nga tikanga o tekiona rua tekau ma waru me rua tekau ma iwa o tenei Ture ki nga moni katoa c tae atu ana kite Poari Whenua Maori i runga i nga tikanga kua whakahuatia nei. Nga Kaute me te Tirotirohanga o nga Moni. 40. Ko nga moni katoa c tika ana kia utua ki nga Poari Whenua Maori, ma tae atu ki a ratou, me hari atu kite peeke kei a ia c takoto ana nga Moni Kawanatanga o te koroni, a me whakanoho atu aua moni ki tetahi kaute me tapa he ingoa mona ko "Te Kaute o nga Moni o nga Whenua Maori o te Takiwa Whenua Maori o (me tuhi ki konei te ingoa o te takiwa) ; a ko nga moni katoa c tika ana kia utua atu c taua Poari Whenua Maori ma taua kaute c utu atu. 41. Ko ia kaute a ia Poari me takoto ki ia kawai ki ia tari ranei o taua peeke, i runga ano i nga huarahi whakahaere kua whakatakotoria, i runga hoki i ta ia Poari i mohio ai he tika, a ma nga tiaki anake c hainatia ana c te Komihana c taea ai te tiki atu nga moni o ia kaute, ma tetahi atu ritenga ranei tera c ata whakatakotoria. 42. Ko nga moni katoa c takoto ana i ia kaute pera, c tika ana ranei kia utua atu ki ia kaute pera, ka kiia era he moni na te iwi katoa o te koroni i raro i nga tikanga o " Te Ture mo nga Moni Puta-a-tau kite Kawanatanga, 1891," a ko nga tikanga katoa o taua Ture c pa ana ki nga moni a te iwi katoa me nga tangata c whakahaere ana i aua moni ka pa hoki ki nga moni katoa c whakahaerea ana i raro i nga tikanga o tenei Ture : Engari, haunga ia mehemea c ata whakahaua motuhaketia ana c tenei Ture, ko nga moni katoa c tika ana kia utua atu c taua kaute me utu atu i runga i te mana o tenei Ture. 43. Me whakahau c te Poari Whenua Maori kia mahia he kaute tika o nga moni katoa c riro atu ana i a ia c utua atu ana ranei c ia i raro i tenei Ture, a i ia wa kua whakatakotoria, a i ia wa hoki c whakahaua ai c te Tumuaki Kai-whakahaere Kai-tirotiro i nga Moni Kawanatanga, me tae atu i te Poari ki taua tangata nga kape o aua kaute, a me mea mahi ii runga i ana tauira i whakahau ai. 44. Kaua he mea i roto i tenei Ture c whakahaerea hei uta taake ki runga ki nga whenua kua tau kite Peari Whenua Maori, ki runga ranei i nga moni c puta ana i aua whenua, ki runga ranei i nga M aori c whiwhi ana i aua moni, c neke ake ai aua taake i nga taake c rite ana kia utua c aua whenua i mua o te taunga o aua whenua kite Poari. Etahi atu Mea. 45. I roto i nga ra kotahi tekau i muri iho i te ra c tauria ai nga moni i ia tau, ara, i te toru tekau ma tahi o Maehe, mehemea c noho huihui ana te Paremete i taua wa, a mehemea kaore i te huihui, kaati hei roto i nga ra kotahi tekau i muri tonu iho i te ra i huihui ai te Paremete i taua tau, me mahi a me whakatakoto kite aroaro o te Paremete enei tv pukapuka c mau ake nei, he mea haina tetahi tiwhikete ki runga c te Tari Tirotiro i nga Moni hei tohu mo te tika o taua pukapuka, ara — (1.) Me whakatakoto c te Minita mo nga Moni, tetahi pukapuka i ia tau i ia tau hei whakaatu i, —

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Whakanohonoho kite tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga 17 Whenua Maori.

(a.) Te nui o ia moni puku i tukuna-a-nama atu ki ia Poari i roto i te tau kotahi i runga i nga tikanga mo aua mea kua uru nei ki tenei Ture, me nga mahi mona aua moni i tukuna-a-nama atu ai; (b.) Te wariu o te punga i whakaritea mo ia moni puku i tukuna-a-nama atu; (<?.) Nga utunga-a-tau hei whakaea haere i te moni puku i tukuna-a-nama atu ; (d.) Te nui, ma huihuia katoa, o nga moni katoa i tukuna-a-nama atu kei te takoto kore ea ; (<?.) Te maha me te nui, ma huihuia katoa, o nga moni c tika ana kia utua-a-tau kaore ano i utua ; (f.) Te nui o nga tipenetua i whakaputaina i raro i tenei Ture ; (g.) Era atu mea kua whakatakotoria c tenei Ture. (2.) Me whakatakoto c te Kai-tiaki mo te Katoa, tetahi pukapuka i ia tau i ia tau hei whakaatu, — (h.) I nga moni katoa kua utua atu kite Kaute mo nga Moni c tukuna-a-nama atu ana ki nga Maori; (».) I nga moni initareti katoa c puta ana i nga moni c whakahaerea ana c ia ; (k.) I nga moni katoa c utua ana c taua kaute kite Minita mo nga Moni; (*.) I nga moni c toe ana ki taua kaute i te timatanga o ia tau me te mutunga o ia tau. 46. Ka ahei te Kawana i ia wa, i runga i te Ota Kaunihera i panuitia ki roto kite Gazette me te Kahiti, kite hanga huarahiwhakahaere mo ia o nga mahi c whai ake nei, ara, koia enei :— (1.) Hei whakahaere i nga pootitanga o nga mema Maori mo nga Poari Whenua Maori, a hei whakahaere i tetahi tikanga c tuhituhia ai nga pooti o nga Maori taitamariki kaore nei ano i eke nga tau kite rua tekau ma tahi; (2.) Hei whakatakoto, kia marama rawa ai nga mana, nga tikanga, me nga mahi c hoatu ana ki nga Komihana me nga Poari W henua Maori; (3.) Hei hanga tikanga mo te whakatuunga o nga Apiha Whakahaere Pooti, o nga Apiha Kai-pupuri i nga moni, me era atu apiha i raro i tenei Ture, hei whakarite i nga utu mo ratou mo ia tau, a hei whakatakoto marama i nga tikanga me nga mahi c hoatu ana ki a ratou; (4.) Hei hanga tikanga c taea ai te tango o te whenua hei rori hei tiriti ranei, mo nga mahi ranei a te iwi katoa, i runga i nga tikanga o "Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, 1894"; (5.) Hei whakatakoto turanga taone ; { 6.) Hei whakatau i te maha o nga eka c uru ki roto kite riihi kotahi mo te whenua, ara, te maha o nga eka c tukua i runga i te riihi kite kai-tango riihi kotahi ; (7.) Hei whiriwhiri a hei ruri i nga whenua ; (8.) Hei whakatau i nga tikanga c riihitia atu ai nga whenua c tukua atu ai ranei i runga i etahi atu ritenga i raro i tenei Ture;

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18 Whakanohonrho kite tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori.

(9.) Hei whakatakoto i te ahua o nga korero mo roto i nga pukapuka riihi, me era atu pukapuka hoki i raro i tenei Ture, a me nga tikanga mo te hainatanga o aua pukapuka; (10.) Hei whakatakoto i nga mahi me nga mana c hoatu kite Kai-rehita Takiwa Whenua i runga i nga tikanga rehitatanga i nga riihi me era atu pukapuka; (11.) Hei whakatako i nga huarahi me nga tikanga c kimihia ai nga wariu o nga whakapainga o nga whenua ; (12.) Hei whakatakoto tepara-whika hei whakaatu atu i nga wa hei utunga haeretanga c ea ai nga moni i tukuna-a-nama atu me nga initareti o aua moni; (13.) Hei hanga tikanga, i runga i ana huarahi i kite ai, hei whakatutuki i nga tikanga c utua ai c whakahokia ai nga moni i tukuna-a-nama i raro i tenei Ture; (14.) Hei apiti mai hei hoa mo tenei Ture i era o nga tikanga o "Te Ture Mama, 1891," "Te Ture Whenua, 1892," me "Te Ture mo nga Mahi Nunui o te Koroni, 1894," i runga i ta te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera i whakaaro ai he tika, me ana whakatikatikanga i aua mea i runga i tana i mohio ai i rnnga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture; (15.) Mo era atu mea c maharatia ana c tika ana kia mahia he huarahi-whakahaere mo ratou i raro i tenei Ture, c mohiotia ana ranei c te Kawana hei tino whakatutuki i nga tikanga o tenei Ture. 47. Ko tenei Ture kua wharikitia atu ki raro i te mana o nga Ture c whai ake nei, ara, koia enei :-— "Te Ture Hanga Reriwe me te Ture Whenua, 1881" ; "Te Ture Taake Whenua Taake Moni Puta-a-tau hoki, 1891 " ; "Te Ture mo nga Mahi N unui, i 894 " ; " Te Ture Whakanohonoho Whenua kite Tangata, 1894 " ; "TeTure Reiti, 1894"; " Te Ture Reiti Whenua i runga i tona Utu ake haunea ia nga Whakapainga, 1896 " : Engari, mo runga i nga whenua katoa kua tau kite Poari, ka kiia ko te Poari te hunga no ratou te whenua mo runga i nga tikanga katoa o aua Ture; a tetahi hoki, ka eke te mana o "Te Ture Whakanohonoho Whenua kite Tangata, 1894," ki runga ki aua whenua rite tonu ki a ia c mana nei ki runga ki nga whenua o nga Pakeha noa iho. 48. Ka whai mana te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera kite kape i tetahi whenua Maori ki waho i nga tikanga o tenei Ture kite mohio tuturu ia c tino matau ana te Maori nona te whenua kite whakahaere i taua whenua. 49. Ko iaTure c pa ana kite iwi katoa, ko ia ture c pa motuhake anake ana ki etahi tangata noa iho, me ia Ture ranei c pa motuhake ana ki tetahi takiwa, mehemea c taupatupatu ana o ratou tikanga ki nga tikanga o tenei Ture, kua whakatikatikaina kua whakakorea c tenei Ture nga wahi o aua Ture c taupatupatu ana ki tenei.

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Whakanohonoho kite tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga 19 Whenua Maori.

KUPU APITI. Te Ahua o te Pukapuka No. I.—Pitihana. I raro i " Te Ture Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, 1898." Xi te Kawana : Ko te hunga kua haina nei i o ratou ingoa ki raro nei [me tuhi ki konei te tokomaha, ara, kaua c tokoiti iho i te rua tekau], he tangata Maori kua eke nga tau kite rua tekau ma tahi a no ratou etahi whenua Maori kei roto i te Takiwa Whenua Maori o [me tuhi ki konei te ingoa o te takiwa], tenei ratou ka pitihana atu kite Kawana kia whakaputaina c ia he panuitanga hei whakaatu kua whakaaetia " Te Ture Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, 1898," kia whakahaerea ki roto kite takiwa kua whakahuatia ake nei.

[Ki skonei te whakapakehatanga o te pitihana i runga ake nei.]

[Ko nga kai-titiro hei te Kai-whakawa, hei ie roia, hei te Pohimahita, hei te Karaka o te Kooti o te Kai-whakawa Tuturu, hei te Kai-rehita, hei tetahi atu apiha ranei o te Kooti Whenua Maori.]

Te Ahua o te Pukapuka No. 2.—Whakaatu i te Whakahenga. I raro i " Te Ture Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, 1898." Xi te Kawana : Ko te hunga kua haina nei i o ratou ingoa ki raro nei [me tuhi ki konei te tokomaha, ara, kaua. c tokoiti iho i te rua tekau], he tangata Maori kua eke nga tau kite rua tekau ma tahi a no ratou etahi whenua Maori kei roto i te Takiwa Whenua Maori o [me whakahua i konei te ingoa o te takiwa], a tenei ratou ka tuku whakaatu kite Kawana kei te whakahe ratou kite pitihana a [me tuhi ki konei te ingoa o te kai-piti-hana tuatahi] me etahi atu he mea kia whakaaetia " Te Ture Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, 1898," ki roto kite takiwa kua whakahuatia nei, kua whakaaturia nei hoki i roto i te panui a te Kawana i roto i te Kahiti o te o nga ra o , 18 . [Me tuhi ki konei te ra i perehitia ai te panui a te Kawana.] I tuhia i tenei te o nga ra o , 18 . [Me whakapakeha, me haina, me titiro te hainatanga, a me whakaoti katoa pera ano me te pitihana.]

He mea whakahau i taia ai c Hoani Make, Kai-ta Perehi a te Kawanatanga, Poneke. —1898.

ama. Te Hainatanga o te Kai-pitihana. Te maha o nga Tau o te Tangata. Te ingoa o te Poraka i uru ai teKai-pitihana. Nga Hainatanga o nga Kai-titiro, hei tohu i tino marama ia Kai-pitihana ki te tikanga o te Pitihana i mua i tana hainatanga taua mea. 1 2 &c. A.B. CD. &c. E.F. G.H. &c.

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APPENDIX B. [Precis op Native Land Protection and Administration Bill.]

TB TUEE TIAKI WHAEAHAEKE HOKI I NGA WHENUA MAORI. WHAKARAPOPOTOTANGA I NGA TIKANGA 0 TE PIRE TIAKT, WHAKAHAERE HOKI, I NGA WHENUA MAORI ME NGA WHAKATIKATIKANGA I WHIRIWHIRIA E TE HUI NUI 0 TE KOTAHITANGA I TU NEI XI PAPAWAI, KEREITAONE, I NGA MARAMA 0 MEI ME HUNE, 1898. Notemea i tukua atu c etahi tangata o te iwi Maori he pitihana ki a te Kuini i te tau o tona Taimana Tiupiri, he inoi na ratou kia whakamutua te raahi hoko whenua Maori, a notemea hoki he painga mo nga iwi c rua kia whakaatia tenei, i te mea c tika ana kia waiho te whenua mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua, a notemea c tika ana kia whakarapopototia nga tikanga o te ture, hei rahui, hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori, hei whakahaere hoki i nga mana whakahaere o te Kooti Whenua Maori, me te noho ora o te iwi Maori, me te whakamahi i a ratou ki nga mahi ahu whenua, me te whakakaha i nga tikanga mo nga tamariki kura. A ka meinga tenei Ture hei tohu whakamahara mo te taenga kite rima-tekau-ma-warutanga o nga tau o Kuini Wikitoria c Kawana ana i tona iwi Maori o Niu Tireni: Nα eeiea ka mbingata hei Tube c te Sunanga Nui o Niu Tireni c noho huihui ana i roto i te Paremete, i runga ano i tona mana, ara : — 1. Te Ingoa Poto o tenei Ture ko "Te Ture Eahui Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori, 1898." 1. I runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, me roherohe a takiwa te Koroni nei. 2. Me whakatu he Poari Whenua Maori, mo ia takiwa mo ia takiwa, ko nga mema mo taua Poari, ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna, me nga mema Maori kia tokowha, he mea whakatu c te Kawana, i runga i te panuitanga ki roto kite Gazette me te Kahiti o Niu Tireni. 3. Me utu nga mema o te Poari ki nga utu tau, me era atu utu hoki c whakaritea ana c te Kawana i ia wa i ia wa, i roto i etahi moni c whakaaetia ana c te Paremete. 4. Me tv ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna hei Tiamana mo te Poari i runga i tona tuunga Komihana, engari me whai pooti whakatau anake ia ; a kite ngaro atu ia me whakatu c ia tetahi o nga mema hei Tepute Tiamana. 5. Me whai pooti whiriwhiri te Tepute Tiamana, pera me era atu mema, me whai pooti whakatau hoki. 6. Ka whai korama te Poari ma ka noho nga mema c toru mo nga hui whakarite tikanga. 7. Ka tau te mana o tenei Ture ki runga ki nga whenua Maori katoakua tau i te Kooti Whenua Maori i ahu mai i te take Maori, hui atu ki nga whenua papatupu, me nga whenua hoki c mau ana i raro i etahi riihi. Xi nga hea ranei c toe ana i roto i etahi whenua hoko, i etahi whenua riihi, kua whakahaerea i mua i te ra i paahi ai tenei Ture. 8. A te wa c tv ai te Poari, ko te mahi tuatahi ma te Poari, he whakatu hui Maori, i runga i te tikanga panui, ki roto ki ia takiwa ki ia takiwa o roto o nga rohe o te Poari, kia ahei ai te Poari kite whakarite i nga tikanga i raro nei. (1.) Xi te whakatu Komiti mo aua takiwa, me etahi Komiti Poraka mo ia whenua kotahi, mo nga whenua huihui ranei o nga hapu no ratou nga whenua. (2.) Xi te whakarite i nga whenua me nga rohe c wehea ana c whakaritea nei c te rarangi tekau ma wha o tenei Ture. (3.) Xi te whakarite i nga whenua, i nga wahi ranei o nga whenua, c tukua ana kia whakahaerea c te Poari i raro i tona mana, me te tango mai i nga pukapuka whakaaetanga a te nuinga o nga tangata no ratou ia whenua o au whenua. 9. Ko te whakaaetanga a te tangata kotahi maha atu ranei, o nga tangata no ratou te whenua mo etahi whenua, mo tetahi wahi ranei o te whenua me tuku atu c te Poari kite Kawana, me te apiti atu i tana ripoata whakaatu i te ahua o te whenua me tona take, me te huarahi hei whakahaerenga, me panui c te Kawana kite Gazette me te Kahiti o Niu Tireni, me te tono kia whakaaturia mai nga kupu whakahe me te take o te whakahe, i roto i nga ra c whakaritea c te Kawana i muri o te ra i puta ai te panui. 17—1. 3a.

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10. Xi te puta ake he whakahe, me tuku atu c te Kawana kite Poari, kia uiuia kia whakataua hoki, i roto i etahi hui o nga tangata o te whenua, ka tuku atu ai ki te Kawana kia panuitia kite Gazette me te Kahiti, koi ana hei whakapumautanga i taua whenua, te korenga ranei c uru, ki raro i te mana whakahaere o te Poari. 11. Ko nga whenua c kapea ana ki waho o te mana o tenei Ture, ko nga whenua i raro i nga Ture he whai ake nei. " Te Ture mo nga Takiwa Ngawha, 1881." " Te Ture Eahui o Poutini me Whakatu, 1887." " Te Ture Whakatau Eahui o te Tai-Hauauru, 1892." "Te Ture Taone Maori, 1895." " Te Ture Eahui Maori o te Takiwa o te Urewera, 1896." Me nga whenua i hokoa mai i te Karauna i te Pakeha ranei, haunga ia mehemea c tukua ana c te tangata whai take tona whenua, ki raro kite mana o tenei Ture. 12. Ka whai mana te Poari kite riihi i nga whenua Maori mo te wa mo nga utu, i raro i nga tikanga o nga Huarahi-whakahaere, i raro i tenei Ture i runga i nga huarahi makete, tenata ranei. 13. E kore c taea te hoko he whenua Maori, c murua ranei mo te nama mo te mokete ranei, kua tau ki raro i te mana o tenei Ture, haunga ia te mahi whakaoti i te hoko me te riihi, kua timataria te whakahaere i mua o te paahitanga o tenei Ture, a c kore hoki c pa ki nga whenua kua kapea ki waho o te mana o tenei Ture. 14. E whaimana ana te Poari, i runga i te whakariterite tahi me nga tangata Maori no ratou nga whenua, kite wehe i etahi whenua hei wahi mahinga, hei wahi noahanga, hei pa, i runga i nga tikanga me nga ritenga c whakaarohia ano c ratou c tika ana, me te wehe hoki i etahi whenua hei urupa, hei tuunga kura, hei tuunga whare karakia, mo etahi tikanga ranei c pai ana mo te katoa, i nga whenua ranei c meatia ana hei paamu, kua mahia ranei hei paamu, i mua i te mananga o tenei Ture. 15. I te tukunga whenua Maori i runga i te riihi me matua whakahaere te Poari i te tikanga mo nga tono riihi a nga tangata Maori whenua kore me nga Maori ranei no ratou te whenua c whakatuwheratia ana kite riihi. 16. Ka ahei te Poari kite whakahaere tikanga mo te tuku whenua Maori ki a te Kuini mo te mahi mama i runga i nga tikanga o " Te Ture Mama, 1891," ko nga moni c puta mai ana i nga whenua pera katoa i runga i te mahi mama me utu atu c te Watene (Warden) o te whenua mahi koura kite Poari hei painga mo nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua. 17. Ka ahei te Poari kite whakahaere moni, hei hanga, hei whakapai hoki i nga rori me nga tiriti, me te mahi ruri, me te whakatuwhera whenua i runga i te ritenga whakanohonoho tangata, mo era atu tikanga ranei c ahei ana kia whakahaerea i runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture o nga Huarahi-whakahaere ranei, ma whakaae nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 18. Ka tau era atu mana ki runga kite Poari c whakataua ana ki runga ki a ratou c nga Huarahi-whakahaere, ko aua Huarahi-whakahaere me whakatakoto ki runga ki nga Teepu o nga Whare c rua i roto i nga ra tekau ma wha o muri iho i te kahititanga, mehemea c noho huihui ana te Paremete i taua wa, a mehemea kaore i te noho huihui kaati hei roto i nga ra tekau ma wha o muri tonu iho i te ra i huihui tuatahi ai te Paremete i taua tau. Me tuku ano he tauira o aua Huarahi-whakahaere ki nga tangata Maori o roto i te takiwa o te Poari. 19. Ka pena ano te mana-whakahaere o te Poari ki runga nga whenua Maori, me nga mana-whakahaere o te Kooti Whenua Maori, mo runga i te mahi wehewehe, whakatu kai-riiwhi, whakatau i te nui o te paanga o ia tangata o ia tangata, me te mahi whakatu kai-tiaki mo era o nga tangata no ratou te whenua c noho hapa ana i to te ture ritenga, hui atu kite whakatau take mo nga whenua papatupu, me te whakauru i nga tangata c tika ana nga take ki etahi whenua i whakataua i mua ki tetahi tangata kotahi, ki etahi tangata ranei i runga i te tikanga kai-tiaki mo etahi tangata, mo etahi hapu ranei, no ratou te whenua. 20. Ko nga moni c puta mai ana kite Poari i runga i nga whenua Maori, me whakahaere i runga i enei ritenga, ara : — (1.) Hei utu i te mahi whakahaere. (2.) Hei whakaea i nga mokete, me nga riana c tika ana kia utua. (3.) Hei utu i nga moni toenga ki nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua i runga i te ritenga o te paanga o ia tangata.

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21. E kore c taea c te tangata Maori nona te whenua, te tuku i tona paanga ki tetahi tangata i muri i te mananga o tenei Ture, heoi kau te tuku c taea ko te tuku a wira, ohaaki ranei kite Maori. 22. Ka mana te Poari kite uiui kite whakatau i nga wira i mahia i mua atu o te paahitanga o tenei Ture, i roto i te takiwa c whakaritea ai c te Kawana. 23. Ka ahei te Poari kite nama i etahi moni i te Kawanatanga, kaua c neke ake i te £5,000, i roto i te tau, mo te mahi whakatakoto rori, mahi ruri me te whakatuhera whenua i runga ite ritenga whakanohonoho tangata; me mau tonu kite Poari taua moni me ona mahi c whakapaua ai. 24. I runga i te tono a nga tangata no ratou te whenua c whai tikanga ana> ka ahei te Poari kite nama i etahi moni i te Kawanatanga, kaua c neke ake i te £5,000, i roto i te tau, hei whakaea i nga mokete i etahi atu taunaha ranei .i tau ki runga ki nga whenua i te wa i whakaaetia ai kia whakahaerea te Ture nei ki roto, me etahi moni hei whakapai mo nga whenua c meatia ana hei paamu. 25. Ko nga moni he mea pera te nama i te Kawanatanga me whakahoki mai i runga i te moni hua kia rima nga pauna i roto i te rau pauna i ia tau, i runga i te ritenga utu i etahi moni, he mea ata whakarite te nui, i roto ia tau ia tau mo te wa kaua c neke ake i te 42 nga tau, a ko aua utu tau me tango mai i roto i nga moni c puta mai ana ma nga tangata Maori no ratou nei te whenua i nama nei aua moni ma ratou. 26. Ko nga hoko a te Karauna kaore i whakaotia me nga whakahaerenga a nga tangata noa iho i timataria i runga i to te ture ritenga, a c taea ana hoki te whakaoti i runga i to te ture ritenga me i kaua i paahitia tenei Ture ka ahei te whakaoti c te Poari; me te whaimana te Poari kite wehe atu i nga hea kua hokoa kua riihitia ranei, kite whakawhiti ranei i nga hea kaore ano i hokoa kite Karauna ki nga tangata noa iho ranei, kite hoko mai, ranei i etahi hea i hokona c te Karauna c nga tangata noa iho ranei, mea te tono kia unuhia nga panui, nga tiwhikete ranei i whakaputaina i raro i tekiona kotahi rau tekau ma waru o " Te Ture Kooti Whenua Maori, 18947^ 27. Ka ahei te Kawana i ia wa kite hangai nga whakaritenga c maharatia ana c ia c tika ana, kia taea ai te whakahaere nga tikanga o tenei Ture. 28. Ina puta he tono a nga tangata no ratou te whenua a he mea tautoko c te Poari, ka whai mana te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera kite kape i tetahi whenua Maori ki waho i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, kite mohio tuturu ia c tino matau ana te tangata nona te whenua kite whakahaere i taua whenua, me te mau ano o te mana o te rarangi tekau-ma-toru. 29. Ko nga whenua Maori i roto i tetahi takiwa kua tau nei ki raro i te mana o tenei Ture, c puritia ana c nga tangata Pakeha, c nga tangata Maori ranei, i runga i te riihi, i raro i nga ture c whai mana ana i mua o te mananga o tenei Ture, ka mau tonu i raro i te mana o aua riihi i te wa c mana ana, heoi kau nga tikanga o tenei Ture c pa atu ana ki aua whenua, ko te rarangi tekau-ma-toru. 30. Kaua nga tangata Maori c utu i nga reiti me nga taake c pa ana ki nga whenua Maori c riihitia ana i raro i te mana o tenei Ture. 31. I te wa c whakariterite ana te Poari i nga whenua c whakaritea nei c te wahanga toru o te rarangi waru, me te rarangi tekau-ma-wha o tenei Ture, me uiui rawa te Poari, kia marama, mehemea c whai whenua ana c ora ai ia tangata, ia wahine, tamaiti ranei, c rite ana te nui o te whenua c ora ai ia, me ona uri, hei kainga, hei mahinga. Xi te mohio te Poari kei te iti, kei te kore ranei he paanga o tetahi tangata ki nga whenua, ki nga waahi ranei o aua whenua c wehea hei kainga ranei hei mahinga, me whakarite c te Poari he whenua i roto i te whenua c pa ana taua tangata, i runga ranei i te tikanga whakawhitiwhiti whenua c marama ai kite whakaaro o te Poari me nga tangata no ratou nga whenua c whakaritea ana i runga i tenei tikanga. 32. E kore c kohia he reiti he taake ranei i nga whenua Maori c kore nei c taea te riihi i runga i te kino i te tupuhi ranei i te wa c takoto noa ana. 33. Ka ahei te Poari kite tuku mana atu, ia wa ia wa, mo te wa c pai ai te Poari, ki etahi Komiti Maori o etahi takiwa o roto i te takiwa o te Poari, mo etahi tikanga c whakaaro ai te Poari kia whakahaerea c te Komiti, ara : — (1.) Whakawa uiui, whakariterite ranei, i nga wehewehenga i nga paanga ranei, whakatu kai-riiwhi, kai-tiaki, whakatau ranei i nga whenua papatupu. (2.) Hei whakahaere ranei i etahi huarahi marama, hei tiaki i te noho ora me te pai o nga pa, kainga noho, me nga whare, me nga wai, me nga huarahi,

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rori ranei o nga kainga, o nga tangata Maori me nga hapu o to ratou takiwa. (3.) Hei whakarite tikanga c taea ai te tiaki pai te oranga, kai, moni ranei, c kore ai c whakapaua kinotia. (4.) Hei whakarite tikanga ranei, c kaha ai, c pumau ai nga tamariki kura ki nga huarahi tika i akona ai ratou. 34. Ko nga whakatau, ko nga whakariteritenga ranei a te Komiti mo etahi whenua, mo etahi tikanga ranei, i tukua c te Poari kite Komiti me tuhituhi me ripoata atu kite Poari, ma te Poari c whakatuturu, c whakatarewa ranei c whakarereke ranei, ki tana i kite ai he tikanga tika. 35. E kore c tv he roia, he kai-whakahaere ranei i te aroaro o te Poari, o te Komiti ranei mo tetahi tangata, i roto i etahi whakawa whenua Maori, c hara nei i te tangata c pa ana kite whenua c hara ranei i te mea marena i runga i te ritenga Pakeha i te ritenga Maori ranei kite hunga whaitake, i te kai-tiaki ranei, engari ano mehemea c ngaro whai take ana tetahi tangata, he kuare ranei kite whakahaere i ona take, kei te Poari, kei te Komiti ranei, mana c whakaae ka tika ai te tv o te kaiwhakahaere mo te wa anake i whakaaetia ai, ka mana ano kite whakakore atu i taua whakaaetanga. 36. Kua whakakorea c tenei Ture nga Tiati katoa o te Kooti Whenua Maori, engari ka tv tonu ona tari ona kai-rehita ona kai-tuhituhi me ona kai-whakamaori ano i whakaturia i raro i te mana o tenei Ture. Me tv ko nga kai-whakamaori te Kooti hei kai-tuhituhi mo te Poari, mo te Komiti ranei, hei tiaki hoki i nga kaute moni me nga pukapuka i te wa c whakahaere ana te Poari i nga mahi o te Kooti Whenua Maori. 37. Kaua c pa te mana o te Ture Eeiti Whenua Maori me te Ture Taake ki nga whenua me ona mea o runga i wehea hei kainga mahinga, me nga wahi c korerotia nei i te rarangi tekau ma wha, haunga i te whenua c puritia ana c nga tangata Maori no ratou i runga i te mahi paamu. 38. E kore c pa te Ture Pane Kuini ki runga ki nga whenua kua tau nei ki raro i te mana whakahaere o te Poari. 39. Ko nga mema mo te Poari ma te Kawana c whakatu i te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna me nga tangata Maori tokowha, he mea ata whiriwhiri ratou c nga tangata Maori, o ia takiwa o ia takiwa, o roto i te takiwa o te Poari me panui i runga i te Gazette me te Kahiti o Niu Tireni, ma te he, ma te whakamutu ranei o tetahi o aua mema i tona tuunga hei mema mo te Poari, c mutu ai te tv o tetahi mema o te Poari i roto i te toru tau. 40. Ko te whiriwhiringa i aua mema Maori mo te Poari, me wehe kia wha nga takiwa o roto o te takiwa o te Poari, kia kotahi tonu te mema mo te takiwa, no roto ake ano i taua takiwa, me ona paanga whenua kei reira ano, me whakahua o ratou ingoa i te ra i whakaritea ai, a kite tautohetia, me ata whiriwhiri c nga tangata katoa i hui kite wahi i whakahuatia ai, otira kite kaha tonu te tautohe, me tuku atu kite Kawana nga ingoa o nga tangata c tautohetia ra, engari kaua c neke atu ite tokorua. Ma te Kawana c whakatu ko tetahi o aua tangata. 41. Me panui c te Kawana i roto i te Gazette me te Kahiti te whakaurunga mai ki raro i te mana o tenei Ture me nga whakahaere a te Poari o te takiwa, tetahi whenua c mau nei ki tetahi tangata Maori, he mea hoki mai i te Karauna i te Pakeha ranei, i runga i te whakaae a te tangata nona te whenua pera kia tukua ki raro i te mana o tenei Ture. 42. Ka ahei te Kawana kite wehe ki waho o nga mana whakahaere o te Poari i raro i te mana o tenei Ture i nga whenua katoa i etahi ranei i roto i tetahi takiwa o te Poari, ka ahei hoki kite whakauru mai ano i tetahi whenua i katoa ranei o nga whenua o taua takiwa, i runga i nga tono-a-pitihana a nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 43. Ka ahei te Kawana kite whakauru mai ki raro i te mana o tenei Ture i tetahi whenua i kapea ra ki waho o te mana o te rarangi tekau ma tahi o tenei Ture i runga i nga tono-o-pitihana a nga tangata nona te whenua. 44. E ahei ana te wahine whaitake kite whenua kia uru hei mema mo te Komiti Poraka. 45. Ka whaimana te Kawana kite panui i tetahi takiwa i te tahi whenua ranei hei rahui mo nga manu Maori, i nga roto tuna ranei o nga whenua Maori hei painga mo nga tangata Maori no ratou aua whenua aua roto ranei, ma tae atu he pitihana a nga tangata no ratou, me te mohio o te Kawana, he tika nga take i tonoa ai.

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APPENDIX G. Te Hui kite Waipatu, Hastings. Ko te Whiriwhiri ate Komiti o te Hui kite Waipatu mo te Pire a te Kawanatanga. Te Whakaupoko. Kua whakaurua te kupu Eahui. Whakamarama. I hoatu c te hui enei kupu c mau i raro ake nei, hei whakamarama i te Pire ara : Ko tenei Pire Eahui hei tohu mo te roanga o nga ra o Kuini Wikitoria c noho ana i runga i te Torona o ona Tipuna, hei tohu ano mo te rima tekau mawhitutanga o ona tau c Kuini ana mo tona iwi Maori.—Kua paahitia. No. 2. Kia wha nga Maori kia toru nga Pakeha mo te Poari, kua apitia ake ki raro ki enei kupu : Kia kotahi huinga whakamahara, whakakaha, titiro i a ratou mahi, i te kaha me te mangeretanga o aua Poari, me era atu mea c hiahiatia ana c te iwi Maori kia whakahaerea. No. 3. Paahitia. No. 4. Paahitia ana, engari ko nga Pakeha me reo Maori katoa. No. 5. Paahitia. Nos. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Paahitia katoatia. No. 11. Kua patua te kupu "haunga," kua hoatu ko te kupu "me nga," kia uru ai aua whenua katoa ki roto. No. 12. Kua paahiatia. No. 13. He menemana, c kore c taea te hoko nga whenua katoa i raro i tenei Ture, engari ko nga whenua katoa kua tau te hoko a te Kawanatanga, a etahi atu tangata ranei ki runga, ma tetahi Komiti c tapahi atu ki waho, c rite ana mo aua hoko. No. 14. E whai mana ana te Poari kite wehe i etahi whenua hei mahinga, hei wahi nohoanga mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua, i runga i nga tikanga me nga ritenga c whakaarohia ana c ratou c tika ana, i runga i te whakaaetanga o nga tangata whai take ki taua poraka, me te wehe hoki i etahi whenua hei urupa, hei tuunga kura, hei tuunga whare karakia mo etahi atu tikanga ranei c pai ana mo te katoa, me te wehe hoki i te whenua, i nga whenua ranei o te tangata, o nga tangata ranei, kua whakapaia nei o ratou whenua, a kua nohoia c te kararehe, i mua atu o tenei Ture, ma ratou ano c whakahaere i runga ano i te kite o te Poari i te tika, me te pai o te panui a taua tangata, a me tupato te titiro a te Poari ki tana whakahaere i a ia, i a ratou ranei. Nos. 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Kua paahitia. No. 21. Kua unuhia ki waho te wahi: Heoi te tuku o tera, ko te tuku a wira kite Maori. Nos. 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27. Kua paahiatia katoatia. 5 Aperira, 1898. Na Hoani Buru.

APPENDIX D. Te Kape o te Pitihana Whakatikatika a nga iwi o Whanganui me Taupo. I mahia ki Whanganui. Pitihana Whakaatu. (1.) He Whakamarama, he inoi atu hoki na matou na te iwi o Whanganui nei me te iwi o Tuwharetoa o Taupo me o matou rangatira tane rangatira wahine me o matou hapu o enei iwi. (2.) I runga i to matou raruraru ki nga tangihana mo to matou tino kaumatua rangatira aroha o Meiha Keepa kihai i taea te whakarite te ra 20 o Mci, c tae ai kite hui o te Kotahitanga ki Papawai. (3.) I tae ano he waea whakaatu ma matou kia nekehia te hui, kia tae atu matou, a kaore he utu mai a Tamahau Mahupuku mo aua waea a matou. (4.) I te mea kua kite matou i roto i nga nupepa Pakeha kua tae te Kawana me te Pirimia ki Papawai a kua takoto atu nga whakamarama a te Pirimia mo te Pire whenua Maori a te Kawanatanga kua tae nei ki Papawai, a, ka whakaaro matou c kore, a matou take i whiriwhiri ai c uru ki te Pahitanga a te Kotahitanga i taua Pire. (5.) Koia matou ka inoi atu nei kite Honore Pirimia me ona hoa Minita kia whakaarohia mai c koutou tenei pitihana, kia uru atu ki roto kite ropu huihuinga o nga Minita me te Pirimia ma whiriwhiri koutou i nga menemana whakatikatika i nga take katoa c whakaurua ana ki taua Pire, c whakakorea ana ranei i roto o taua Pire. (6.) E whakaaro ana hoki matou kia awhina, kia tautoko matou me era iwi era hapu i nga wahi o taua Pire katoa kua whakahaerea nei c matou enei c mau ake nei. 1. I runga i nga tikaanga o tenei Ture me roherohe nga takiwa o te koroni nei. 2. Me whakatu he Poari whenua Maori mo ia takiwa, ko nga mema mo taua Poari kia tokorima, ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna, hei Pakeha, kia tokowha hei Maori o ia takiwa o ia takiwa, me pooti aua mema Maori, kia toru tau c tv ana ka pooti hou ano c nga tangata o ia takiwa o ia takiwa. 3. Me utu tau nga mema katoa o tenei Poari, te Komihana me nga mema Maori tokowha o ia Poari o ia Poari, me era atu utu c tika ana, c whakaaetia ana c te Paremete i ia wa i ia wa. 4. Ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna hei Tiamana mo te Poari i runga ano i tona tunga Komihana kia rua nga pooti mana, ko tana ake pooti, me te pooti whakatau. Xi te ngaro ke te Komihana Tiamana mana c whakatu tetahi atu Pakeha hei riwhi mona, me panui rawa kite Kahiti te ingoa o tona riwhi, hei Tepute Tiamana. 5. Me whai Pooti te Teputi Tiamana me te Pooti whakatau ano. 6. Ko te korama o te Poari c tv ai, kia kaua hei iti iho i te tokotoru, kia rua mema Maori, kia kotahi Pakeha, haunga te maha ake. 7. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa.

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8. Ko te whakaaetanga kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture ki roto ki nga takiwa. Me pitihana te tokomaha o nga tangata nona te whenua. Ma te Kawana c whakamana taua tono. Ahakoa papatipu, karauna, tiwhikete, me era atu pukapuka pupuri take whenua Maori. ■ 9. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 10. Xi te puta he whakahe ma nga tangata, o te pitihana o waho ranei o te pitihana o nga tangata ano c whai take ana kite whenua i pttihanatia i raro i te kahiti, me whakatau taua take i runga i te pooti a te tokomaha i tae kite aroaro o te Poari i te ra i panuitia ai kite kahiti. 11. Ko te kupu ("Te Ture mo nga Takiwa Ngawha, 1881") me whakakore i roto i tenei rarangi a me uru aua tv whenua ki roto i tenei Pire. 12. Ka whai mana te Poari kite riihi i nga whenua Maori i runga i te whakaae a te tokomaha o nga tangata nona te whenua, mo te utu nui i runga i te ritenga makete me era atu ritenga whakarite riihi kite katoa ahakoa Pakeha, ahakoa Maori whai take ranei kite whenua mo te wa mo nga utu i raro i nga tikanga o nga huarahi whakahaere. 13. E kore c taea, te hoko he whenua (he toenga whenua hoko ranei) i roto i te tahi takiwa kua whakaaetia kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture i roto i muri iho i tenei. 14. 11l whaimana ana te Poari kite wehe i etahi whenua i runga i te tono a te tangata, a nga tangata ranei nona te whenua, hei wahi mahinga hei wahi nohoanga mo nga tangata, nona te whenua. E whakaarotia ana c ratou c tika ana, me te wehe hoki i etahi whenua hei urupa, hei tuunga kura, hei tuunga whare karakia, me etahi atu tikanga c pai ana mo te iwi. 15. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 16. Ka ahei te Poari. Xi te whakahaere tikanga mo te tuku whenua Maori kite Kuini, kia mahia nga koura, me era atu kohatu utu nui, i runga i nga tikanga c whakaetia ana c te nuinga o nga tangata no ratou te whenua. Kua patua nga kupu (mo te mahi mama, i runga i nga tikanga ote Ture Mama 1891). Haere tonu kite mutunga. (Ka hono atu ai enei kupu) (a c kore nga mana o te Ture 1891 c kaha kite whakahe i tenei Ture. 17. Me hono atu kite whakamutunga enei kupu. (Xi te mea c marama ana i te iwi kia peratia.) 18. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 19. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 20. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa, 21. Kei te kupu (tuku a wira). Ka hono atu enei kite tangata ki nga tangata ranei c kitea ana etc Ture he tika (me te whakawhitiwhiti hoki i nga paanga ki nga whenua Maori). Kua patua nga kupu, " Xi te tahi atu Maori." 22. Te nama me te pekerapu me apiti enei kupu ki raro o taua rarangi (c te tangata noaiho c te Kawanatanga ranei). 23. Xi te whakamutunga (kite mea c marama ana kite iwi kia peratia). 24. E pai ana tenei rarangi. 25. Me penei nga utu initareti ara: £5,000 penei na c 3 paiheneti, £4,000 penei na c 3-J- paiheneti, £3,000 penei na c 4 paiheneti, £2,000 penei na c 5 paiheneti. 26. Penei te whakatikatika. Ko enei kupu —" Me nga whakahaerenga o nga tangata noa iho " —me kore rawa atu me te hoatu o enei kupu kite mutunga o taua tekiona—" Engari ko nga Tiiti ko nga Kirimini ranei whakaaetanga kite hoko a etahi o nga tangata Maori, no ratou etahi whenua ki tetahi Pakeha ki etahi Pakeha ranei a kaore ano i taea c taua c aua Pakeha ranei te whakaoti i roto i nga tau tekau ma ono. Name kore c mana aua tv kirimini, ako aua whenua me hoki mai ki te hunga nona te whenua a me taka ki roto ki tenei ture." 27. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 28. Me hono atu kite mutunga, o tenei rarangi enei kupu (i runga i te tono a taua, aua tangata ranei kia pera). Na me apiti atu tenei hei rarangi ano mo tenei Ture. 29. Me whai panga te pouaru wahine ki tetahi wahi oranga mona a te tane i mate, ahakoa reti, moni takoto ranei kite peeke, era atu putanga moni ranei, aha koa whai uri a raua ake ko te tane i mate, kaore ranei. Engari kia mate taua wahine, me hoki taua painga kite tangata, ki nga tangata ranei i whakataua etc Kooti koi ara nga riwhi ote tupapaku. E koro c mana te wira mo te paanga pera a te wahine pouaru. 30. Xi te mate mate katoa te tahi whanau, a kaore he oranga kite ao, i runga i te matenga kore wira ko o ratou paanga whenua katoa me riro i o ratou whanaunga tata. 31. Ko te Kooti Whakawa Whenua Maori, me ona mana katoa, ka whakakahoretia atu c tenei Ture.

APPENDIX E. Whakatikatika a Ngaitahu, Te Takapau, Hawke's Bay. he mea perehi na te puke ki hikurangi. Takapau, 10 Mci, 1898. Ko te whakaupoko tenei, mo te Eipoata o te Pire. E rua nga rarangi hou, kua whakaurua, hei whakamarama mo te Pire. (1.) Me riihi anake nga whenua o nga Maori. (2.) Me rahui tuturu nga toenga whenua o nga Maori c mau nei ki a ratou, a te mutunga ra ano o te ao. Hei tohu mo te roanga o nga ra o te Kuini Wikitoria c noho ana i runga i te Torona o ona Tipuna, hei tohu ano hoki mo te 57 tanga o ona tau c Kuini ana mo matou mo tona iwi Maori. 1. Mo te rarangi tuatahi me waiho tonu i runga i te tikanga o taua rarangi ano, c ki nei me roherohe a takiwa te koroni nei, ko ta matou nei kupu, me paahi rawa te rahui, kia tapu rawa.

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2. Mo tenei rarangi, kia 3 Pakeha, kia 4 Maori, hei mema mo te Poari kotahi, o ia takiwa, o ia takiwa. 3. E whakaae ana matau mo te utu, kaua ma te Paremete anake c. whakarite he utu, engari me whakaae nga hapu no ratou te whenua. 4. E pai ana tenei ko te Komihana hei Tiamana whakatau anake ia, kite ngaro ia me whakatau c ia ko tetahi o nga Maori hei Teputi Tiamana. 5. Kua paahitia rarangi 6, kua paahitia 7, kua paahitia, ano te rarangi 8, me te 9, me te 10, c whakaae ana matou mo enei rarangi. 6. Mo te rarangi 11, me waiho tonu i runga i tona ahau o taua rarangi ano, engari ko te riana, me era atu taunaha, kaore matou c pirangi atu ki ena take o te Pire. 7. Mo te rarangi 12.—Kua paahitia. 8. Mo te rarangi 13.—Kua paahitia me whakaoti i te hoko kite whakaoti c rite ana. 9. Mo te rarangi 14. —Ma te Poari c whakaoti te wehenga i tetahi wahi o te poraka. 10. Mo te rarangi 15. —Kua paahitia. 11. Mo te rarangi 16.—Me rite tonu te whai mana o te Poari me nga tangata no ratou te whenua kite whakariterite i tenei take. 12. Mo te rarangi 17. —Kua paahitia ki tona tikanga o te rarangi. 13. Mo te rarangi 18.—Ka whai mana te iwi rite tahi kite Poari mo te whakariterite i tenei rarangi. 14. Mo te rarangi 19.—Kua paahitia kite ahua ano o tenei rarangi. 15. Mo te rarangi 20.—E 3 rarangi ka waiho tonu i runga i te ahua o te Pire, ko te kupu 5, ka whakakorea atu. 16. Mo te rarangi 21. —Ko te kupu wira kite tangata, ka kapea atu ki waho, engari te wira ki nga uri tata, ki ana tamariki ake. 17. Mo te rarangi 22.—Kua paahitia, kite ahua ano o taua rarangi o te Pire. 18. Mo te rarangi 23.—Kua paahitia, kite ahua ano o te Pire. 19. Mo te rarangi 24.—Kua paahitia, kite ahua ano o te Pire. 20. Mo te rarangi 25. —Kua paahitia, kite ahua ano o te Pire. 21. Mo te rarangi 26.—K0 ta matou kupu mo tenei take, ka whai mana tahi te Poari me te hapu kite whakahaere tikanga mo tenei take. 22. Mo te rarangi 27. —Ka ahei te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera kite hanga i nga huarahi whakahaere c tau ana hei whakatutuki i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, ko ta matou kupu mo tenei, kia whakaae te Kotahitanga kia ana huarahi whakatutuki, ka tau ai ki runga ki nga whenua o nga Maori, o nga Motu c rua nei o Aotearoa, me Te Waipounamu. Ka tuhia o matau ingoa ki raro nei. Tanguru Tuhua, Te Tiamana o te Takapau, me nga Komiti, tae mai ki Tamaki.

APPENDIX E. Whakatikatika a nga Tangata o Petane, Aropawanui, Waikari, Hawke's Bay. Whakatikatika i Te Pire. Whakarapopototanga i nga tikanga o te Ture Tiaki Whakahaerehoki i nga Whenua Maori, hei Eahui tuturu mo ake tonu atu, a, te mutunga ra ano o te ao. 1. Kua paahitia tenei. 2. Kia toru nga Maori, kia rua nga Pakeha, mo te Poari. 3. Me utu nga mema o te Poari ki nga utu tau anake, c whakaaetia c te Paremete i ia wa, i ia wa. 4. 5. Kua paahi enei. 6. Ka whai korama te Poari, ma noho nga mema c toru, engari kotahi Pakeha maha atu ranei. 7. Kua paahi. 8. Ka whai mana te tekau tangata kite pitihana. 9. Kua paahi. 10. Ka whai mana te tekau tangata kite whakahe i te pitihana. 11. Ko nga whenua kua oti te whakapai kua nohoia c to kararehe c kore te Poari c whai mana ki nga whenua pera. 12. Ka whai mana te Poari me te Komiti poraka kite whakahaere tahi i te riihitanga o nga whenua Maori. 13. Kua paahi. 14. E rite ana kite tekau marua o nga rarangi. 15. Pera ano 16, 17.—Me uru tahi te Poari, me te Komiti kite whakahaere i runga ano i te whakaae a nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 18, 19, 20. Kua paahi enei. 21. Heoi te tuku c whakaaetia ko te tuku a te tangata i tana paanga ki tona uri tata. 22. Kua paahi. 23. I runga i te whakaae o nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 24. Kua paahi. 25. Xi te ea nga moni i namangia c te Poari me mutu te whakahaere a te Poari i taua whenua. 26. 27. Kua paahi enei. Ko te whiriwhiringa tenei a nga tangata katoa o Petane,. Tangoio, Aropawanui, Waikari. He Mea Whakahau mai kia Taia c " Te Puke-ki-Hikurangi."

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APPENDIX G. Mohaka. Ko te Eipoata a te Komiti o te Kapu-o-te-rangi, me te Komiti o te Matakainga i te hui i tv ki Mohaka i te 13 onga ra o Mci, 1898, mo te Pire a te Pirimia, koia teuei nga whaka- . tikatikanga ote Pire. Earangi o te Pire. Take 1. Kua paahitia tenei i tona ake ahua. Take 2. Kua whakaurua kia toru Maori, kia toru Pakeha mo taua Poari. He kupu whakauru mo raro i taua rarangi, a kia kotahi huinga topu o nga Poari o ia takiwa, o ia takiwa i te tau, kite wahi kotahi hei whakatikatika, hei whakatopu hei tirotiro i a ratou mahi, i te kaha, i te mangere ranei o etahi o aua Poari, kite whakahaere i nga ritenga kua tukua ki a ratou, me era atu mea c hiahiatia ana c nga iwi Maori kia whakahaerea. Take 3. Kua paahitia i runga i tona ahua. Take 4. Me unu te Komihana o te Karauna, me whakauru ko tetahi o nga mema Maori, he mea ata pooti c nga Maori o taua takiwa hei Tiamana mo taua Poari, kite ngaro atu ia me whakatu c ia tetahi o nga mema Maori hei Teputi Tiamana. Take 5. Kua paahitia i runga i tona ahua. Take 6. Ka whai korama te Poari ma ka noho nga mema c toru, engari kia kotahi o ratou maha atu ranei, me Pakeha. Take 7, 8, 9. Kua paahitia enei rarangi, he kupu whakauru ki raro i te rarangi 9 i roto i nga marama c toru. 10. Xi te puta te kupu whakahe a nga tangata rua tekau o era atu o nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua, kite pitihana me whakatau taua mea c te Poari i runga i to te Ture ritenga. 11. Me te 12 me te 13. Kua paahitia i runga ano i enei rarangi. 14. Ka whai mana te Poari i runga i te whakaaetanga a nga tangata whai take ki aua poraka, kite wehe i etahi wahi o aua poraka hei urupa, hei tuunga kura, hei tuunga whare karakia, mo etahi atu tikanga ranei c pai ana mo te katoa, me te wehe hoki i etahi whenua o te tangata, o nga tangata ranei kua whakapaia o ratou whenua a kua nohoia hoki c te kararehe, i mua atu o te paahitanga o tenei Ture, i muri mai ranei, i runga i te kite o te Poari i te tika me te pai o te whakahaere a te tangata, a nga tangata ranei, no ratou aua whenua. 15. Me te 16 me te 17 me te 18, kua paahaatia enei rarangi. 19. Ka pena ano te mana whakahaere o te Poari ki runga ki nga whenua, kua whakataua ki a ratou me nga mana whakahaere o te Kooti Whenua Maori, mo runga i te mahi wehewehe, whakatu kai-riiwhi whakatau, i te nui o te paanga o ia tangata, o ia tangata, me te whakakore atu hoki i nga ingoa o nga tangata kaore nei o ratau take paanga ki aua whenua, me te mahi whakatu kaitiaki mo nga tamariki, me te whakauru i nga tangata whai take ki aua whenua, i hapa nei ratou i runga i o te Ture ritenga. 20. Kua paahitia i runga i tona ahua ano. 21. Kaore c taea c te tangata nona te whenua te tuku i tona paanga ki tetahi whenua Maori, i roto i tetahi takiwa, i whakaaetia kia whakahaerea te Ture nei i roto, heoi te tuku c taea, ko te tuku a wira a te tangata i ona paanga ki tetahi tangata Maori, hawhe-kaihe ranei, i a ia c ora ana, he mea tuhi i te aroaro o ona whanaunga me ona uri tata. 22. 23, 24, 25, 26. Kua paahi enei rarangi i tona ahua ano. 27. Ka ahei te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera kite hanga i nga huarahi whakahaere c tau ana hei whakatutuki i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, i runga ano i te whakaae a nga iwi katoa, no ratou nei nga whenua i roto i te mana o tenei Ture. 28. Ko nga huarahi whakahaere katoa, c mahia ana c te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera, hei whatutuki i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, me tuku c te Kawana kite Kotahitanga, i raro i ne mana o te " Tiriti o Waitangi," kia whakatikatikaia aua huarahi whakahaere katoa. 29.. A te wa c ea ai nga nama, me nga mokete, me era atu ritenga c tau ana ki nga whenua Maori c riihitia ana i raro i tenei Ture, ka ahei te Poari kite wehe i etahi waahi, i katoa ranei o aua poraka, ki nga tangata no ratou aua whenua i riihitia ra, i runga i te mea, kua mutu nga tau o taua riihi, i runga i enei take c whai ake nei, ara. (1.) Hei nohoanga kararehe. (2.) Hei mahinga paamu. (3.) Hei whakanohonoho tangata Maori, i runga i te whakanohonoho taone mo matou, me o rnatou uri i muri i a matou, mo ake tonu atu. He mea whakahau mai kia taia c " Te Puke-ki-Hikurangi."

APPENDIX H. H. P. Whatahoro, i mahia ki Whanganui. 1. I runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture me roherohe nga takiwa o te koroni nei c te Kawana ki tana c whakaaro ai. 2. Me whakatu he Poari whenua Maori mo ia takiwa mo ia takiwa, ko nga mema mo taua Poari kia tokorima, ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna, hei Pakeha, kia tokowha hei mema Maori, ma nga Maori o ia takiwa o ia takiwa, c pooti aua mema Maori, kia toru tau c tv ana, ka pooti hou ano c nga tangata o ia takiwa. 3. Me utu tau nga mema katoa o tenei Poari, te Komihana me nga mema Maori tokowha o ia Poari o ia Poari, me era atu utu c tika ana, c whakaaetia ana c te Paremete i ia wa i ia wa. 4. Ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna hei Tiamana mo te Poari i runga ano i tona tunga Komihana ki a rua nga pooti mana ko tana ake pooti, me te pooti whakatau. Xi te ngaro ke

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te Komihana Tiamana, mana c whakatu tetahi atu Pakeha hei riwhi mona, me panui rawa kite Kahiti te ingoa o tona riwhi, hei Teputi Tiamana. 5. Me whai Pooti te Teputi Tiamana me te pooti whakatau ano. 6. Ko te korama o te Poari c tv ai, kia kaua hei iti iho i te tokotoru, kia rua mema Maori, kia kotahi Pakeha, haunga te maha ake. 7. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 8. Ko te whakaetanga kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture ki roto ki nga takiwa. Me pitihana, ma te Kawana c whakamana taua tono, a te tokomaha o nga tangata nona te whenua, ahakoa papatupu, karauna, tiwhikete, me era atu pukapuka pupuri take whenua Maori. 9. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 10. Xi te puta he whakahe ma nga tangata, o te pitihana, o waho ranei o te pitihana o nga tangata ano c whai take ana kite whenua i pitihanatia i roto ite Kahiti, me whakatau taua take i runga ite pooti ate tokomaha, i tae kite aroaro ote Poari itera i panuitia ai kite Kahiti. 11. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 12. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 13. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 14. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 15. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 16. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 17. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 18. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 19. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 20. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 21. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 22. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 23. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 24. I runga i te tono a nga tangata Maori nona te whenua kia nama etahi moni i te Kawanatanga hei whakaea mokete, i etahi atu moni c tau ana ki runga i te poraka, i nga poraka ranei, apiti atu ki nga moni nama a nga tangata nona te poraka. 25. I runga i te tono a nga tangata no ratou nga whenua kia tukua mai he moni mokete c te Kawanatanga ki runga i o ratou poraka whenua, ko nga takoha, hei hua mo nga moni tinana i tonoa moketetia ra, kia kaua c neke ake i te rima pauna i te rau, ko aua moni utu takoha ra, me tango i roto i nga moni utu reti, wuru, hokonga kararehe ranei o taua poraka i pungaia ai aua moni pera, ia tau, ia tau c puta ana mai ki nga Maori nona te whenua. 26. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. 27. E pai ana tenei rarangi katoa. Na me apiti atu tenei hei rarangi ano mo tenei Ture. 28. Kaua hei hokona nga whenua Maori katoa c mau ana i raro i te Ture mokete, riana ranei, mo te hapanga o te utu hua takoha o nga moni tuturu i tonoa c nga tangata nona te whenua, i whakaaetia ranei kia takoto mokete ki taua poraka, ki aua poraka ranei, engari me apiti atu ki nga tino moni tuatahi o te mokete. 29. Kia rima tau me tango mai c te Poari, etahi moni c rima pauna mo ia rau mo ia rau o nga moni tinana i tonoa ra hei takoto mokete ki runga i te poraka i nga poraka ranei, hei whakaiti haere i nga moni tinana o te mokete. 30. Kaua te Ture peekerapu c pa ki nga takiwa kua whakaaetia kia whakahaerea tenei Ture, te muru ranei i nga hea moni, i te hea whenua ranei, mo tetahi nama, aha ranei. 31. Kaua te tangata o te poraka c waiho wira ki tetahi tangata ke atu i ona ake uri ana ake, a ona taina, tuakana ranei, a te whaea kotahi, a te papa kotahi, ma kore rawa ana ake uri, kite kore ana ake uri, a ona taina, tuakana, nga uri ranei a ona taina, tuakana hoki, me waiho kite whanaunga tata tonu ki aiao te hapu nona ai te poraka i whakataua ai etc Kooti. Kaua kite tangata ke, kite Pakeha ranei. 32. Me whai panga te pouaru wahine ki tetahi wahi oranga mona a te tane i mate, ahakoa reti, moni takoto ranei kite peeke, era atu putanga moni ranei, ahakoa whai uri a raua ake ko te tane i mate, kore ranei. Engari kia mate taua wahine, me hoki taua painga kite tangata ki nga tangata ranei i whakataua etc Kooti koi ara nga riwhi ote tupapaku. E kore c mana te wira mo te paanga pera a te wahine pouaru. Heoi, c hoa ma aku ake whakaaro tenei mo te Pire a to tatou Kawanatanga tenei i whakaaro ai, otira ma koutou ma nga upoko maha c whakahaere nga mea c rite ana ki o koutou ake whakaaro hei painga mo te iwi Maori, me nga toenga whenua.

APPENDIX I. Porangahau, 17 Mci, 1898. Ko te ripoata tenei a enei iwi, a enei hapu, a te komiti o te whakamaharatanga, mo te Pire a te Kawanatanga, i tukua mai nei ki nga iwi, ki nga hapu, ki nga reo o Aotearoa me Te Waipounamu, i whakatakototia mai nei c te Pirimia, i roto i te tau o te Tiupiri whakamaharatanga mo nga tau ote Kuini Wikitoria, c rioho ana, i runga i te torona, o ona tupuna. Koia tenei ka tukua atu nei ta matou whakamarauiatanga, c mau ake, i raro nei. Xi te Tiamana, ki nga mema honore c noho huihui ana i runga i to ratou mana, i robo i te Parernete o te Kotahitanga : — No. 1. I runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture me roherohe a takiwa te Koroni nei. Ru-pu Apiti. —Ko ta matou rohe tenei. I timata i Waimata ka ahu kite Kape, ka mau kite Bakautuhaha ka whati kite Bawhiti, ka mau kite Tuturewa—ka mauki te Hora aTe Hewai. Ka mau kite kauru o Taurekaitai, ka ahu ki raro o Taurekaitai. Ka mau mai kite Waikareao, ka mau 18_I. 3a.

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atu ki Paraeroa, ka mau atu kite matamata o Parimahu, ka puta kite moana. Ka ahu kite tonga ka mau kite ngutu awa o Porangahau, ka mau kite ngutu awa o Whangaehu ka mau kite Poroporo, ka mau kite ngutu awa o Tautane ka tutuki ki Waimata kite timatatanga. No. 2. Me whakatu he Poari whenua Maori mo ia takiwa mo ia takiwa. Ko nga mema mo taua Poari ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna me etahi Pakeha tokorua ma te Kawana raua c whakatu, me etahi Maori tokorua me ata pooti raua mo nga tau c toru c nga tangata Maori no ratou nga whenua Maori i roto i ia o aua takiwa. Kupu Apiti. —E whakakorea atu ana tenei wahi ote rarangi, te ingoa Komihana. Engari me tv kia rua nga mema Pakeha kia rua nga mema Maori. Ko te komiti poraka ki raro i a ratou. Ko aua mema Maori no roto ake i taua rohe, me te komiti poraka hoki. No. 3. Me utu nga mema ote Poari nga Pakeha nga Maori ki nga utu tau me era atu utu hoki c whakaaetia etc Paremete i ia wa i ia wa. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga ano i tona ake tikanga. No. 4. Me tv ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna hei Tiamana mo te Poari i runga i tona tuunga Komihana, engari me whai pooti whakatau anake ia, a kite ngaro atu ia me whakatu c ia tetahi o nga mema Pakeha hei Teputi Tiamana. Kupu Apiti. —E whakakorea atu ana tenei wahi o te rarangi, te ingoa Komihana kua tv hei Tiamana engari me tv ia hei Tumuaki mo nga Poari katoa ote koroni. Engari me tv ko tetahi o nga mema Pakeha hei Tiamana. Xi te ngaro atu taua Tiamana i runga ite mate, i nga raruraru nui ranei i pa ki a ia me tv tetahi o aua mema Pakeha hei Teputi Tiamana. No. 5. Me whai pooti te Teputi Tiamana pera me era atu mema, me te pooti whakatau hoki. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga i tona ake tikanga. No. 6. Ka whai korama te Poari ma ka -noho nga mema c toru, engari kia kotahi o ratou maha atu ranei me Maori. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga i tona ake tikanga. No. 7. E kore te Ture c whakakore i te mana mema i te tau 1878 c pa ki nga mema Maori o te Poari. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga i tona ake tikanga. No. 8. Ko te whakaaetanga kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture i roto i etahi takiwa c taea ana i runga i te peneitanga ara, ka taea c te Kawana te whakamana i runga i te pitihana a etahi tangata kia rua tekau maha atu ranei o nga tangata no ratou nei te whenua. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga i tona ake tikanga. No. 9. I te taenga o te pitihana kite Kawana, me perehi c ia ki roto kite Gazette me te Kahiti, me tono hoki kia whakaaturia mai nga kupu whakahe. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga i tona tikanga. No. 10. Xi te puta te kupu whakahe o nga tangata rua tekau o era atu o nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua kite pitihana, me whakatau taua mea i runga i te pooti a nga tangata katoa no ratou te whenua. Kupu Apiti kite No. 10. —E whakahengia atu ana tetahi wahi o tenei rarangi, te kupu pooti, engari me whakatau i runga i te kaha o o ratou take. No. 11. A te whakaaetanga kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture i roto i tetahi takiwa, me tau nga whenua kite Poari, me te whai mana ano o nga riana me era atu taunaha c tika ana i runga i to te Ture tikanga, ko te tikanga o tenei kupu whenua Maori, he whenua papatipu me era atu whenua a nga Maori, haunga ia nga whenua kua hokona c ratou i te Karauna i te Pakeha ranei, whenua ranei c tau nei nga tikanga o nga Ture c whai ake nei ki runga. Kupu Apiti ano mo te No. 11. —E whakakorea atu ana tetahi waahi o tenei rarangi, me tau nga whenua kite Poari, engari me tau nga whakahaerenga o nga whenua kite Poari: "Te Ture mo nga Takiwa Ngawha, 1888"; "Te Ture Whenua Rahui i Poutini me Whakatau, 1887"; "Te Ture Whakatau Eahui o te Tai Hauauru, 1892 " ; me " Te Ture Taone Maori, 1895." No. 12. Ka whai mana te Poari kite riihi i nga whenua Maori mo te wa kia kaua c neke ake i te rua tekau ma tahi nga tau me te whakauru, mo te kore whakauru ranei i te kupu whakaae kia whakaroaina te riihi mo tetahi atu wa kia kaua c neke atu i te rua tekau ma tahi nga tau i raro i nga tikanga o nga huarahi whakahaere, kei ta te Poari c whakaaro ana c tika ana te ritenga. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi. No. 13. E kore c taea te hoko te whenua i roto i tetahi takiwa kua whakaaetia kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture i roto i muri iho i tenei, haunga ia te mahi whakaoti i etahi tikanga mo te hoko i timataria i runga i to te ture ritenga i mua i te paahitanga. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga i tona ake tikanga. No. 14. E whai mana ana te Poari kite wehe i etahi whenua hei, wahi mahinga, hei wahi nohoanga mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua i runga i nga tikanga me nga ritenga c whakaarohia ana c ratou c tika ana, me te wehe hoki i etahi whenua hei urupa, hei tuunga kura, he tuunga whare karakia, mo etahi atu tikanga ranei c pai ana mo te katoa. Kupu apiti, kua whakaurua atu tenei kupu, ma te whakaae ra ano o te komiti poraka ka whai mana ai nga tikanga o tenei rarangi. No. 15. I te tukunga whenua Maori i runga i te riihi, me matua whakahaere te Poari i te tikanga mo nga tono riihi a nga tangata Maori mo ratou te whenua. Kua paahitia te rarangi i runga i tona ake tikanga. No. 16. Ka ahei te Poari kite whakahaere tikanga mo te tuku whenua Maori kite Kuini, mo te mahi mama i runga i nga tikanga o " Te Ture Mama, 1891," ko nga moni c puta mai ana i nga whenua pera katoa i runga i te mahi mama me utu atu c te kai-whakahaere o te whenua mahi koura kite Poari, hei painga mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi, engari ka whakaurua atu tenei kupu, ma te whakaae ra ano o te komiti poraka me nga mema o te Poari ka whai mana ai nga tikanga o tenei rarangi. No. 17. Ka ahei te Poari kite whakahaere moni i runga i te mahi hanga, whakapai hoki i nga rori, tiriti, me te mahi ruri, me te whakatuwhera whenua i runga i te ritenga whakanohonoho tangata,

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mo era atu tikanga ranei c ahei ana kia whakahaerea i runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture o nga huarahi whakahaere. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi, engari ka whakaurua atu tenei kupu, ma te whakaae ra. ano o te komiti poraka me nga tnema o te Poari ka whai mana ai nga tikanga o tenei rangi. No. 18. Ka tau era atu mana ki runga kite Poari c whakataua ana ki runga ki a ratou c nga huarahi whakahaere. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga i tona ake tikanga. No 19. Ka pena ano te mana whakahaere o te Poari ki runga ki nga whenua kua whakatua ki a ratou me nga mana whakahaere o te Kooti Whenua Maori mo runga i te mahi wehewehe, whakatu kai riiwhi, whakatau i te nui o te paanga o ia tangata o ia tangata, me te mahi whakatu kai-tiaki mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua i hapa nei ratou i runga ito te ture ritenga. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi, engari c whakahengia ana te kupu (hapa) c whakatikaia ana ki tona tikanga i (pa) nei ratou i runga i to te Ture ritenga. No. 20. Ko nga moni c puta mai ana kite Poari i runga i nga whenua Maori me whakahaere i runga i enei ritenga, ara : (1) Hei utu ite mahi whakahaere; (2) hei whakaea i nga mokete me nga riana c tau ana kia utua ; (3) hei utu i nga moni toenga ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua i runga te ritenga oto te tangata paanga. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga ake i tona tikanga. No. 21. B kore c taea c te tangata nona te whenua, te tuku i tona paanga ki tetahi whenua Maori i roto i te tahi takiwa i whakaaetia kia whakahaerea Te Ture nei i roto, heoi kau te tuku c taea ko te tuku a wira ki tetahi atu Maori. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi, engari me tuku a wira i a ia ano c toitu ana i tona oranga i waenganui i te iwi. No. 22. E kore te whenua Maori i roto i te takiwa pera c taea te muru te hoko ranei mo te nama. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga i tona ake tikanga. No. 23. Ka ahei te Poari kite nama i etahi moni i Kawanatanga, neke ake i te £5,000 i roto i tetahi tau mo te mahi hanga rori, mahi ruri, me te whakatuwhera whenua i runga i te ritenga whakanohonoho tangata. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga i tona ake tikanga. No. 24. I runga i te tono a nga Maori no ratou te whenua c wha tikanga ana, ka ahei te Poari kite nama i etahi moni i te Kawanatanga, neke ake i te £5,000, i roto i etahi tau, hei whakaea i nga mokete i etahi atu taunaha ranei i tau ki runga ki nga whenua i te wa i whakaaetia kia whakahaerea te Ture nei i roto me etahi moni neke ake i te £1,000 hei utu i nga nama tarewa a nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga ano i tona ake tikanga. No. 25. Ko nga moni he mea pera te nama i te Kawanatanga, me whakahoki mai me te apiti atu i te moni hua, kia rima nga pauna i roto i te rau i runga i te ritenga utu i etahi moni, he mea ata whakarite te nm i roto i ia tau i ia tau, mo te wa neke ake i te 42 nga tau, a ko aua utu tau ra, me tango mai i roto i nga moni c puta mai ana mo nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua i nama nei aua moni ra mo ratou. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi, engari c whakaurua atu ana tenei kupu, me hawhe te moni hua, kia rua pauna tekau hereni i roto i te rau mo te rima mano pauna. No. 26. Ko nga hoko a te Karauna kaore i whakaotia me nga whakahaerenga a nga tangata noaiho i timataria i runga i to te ture ritenga, a i taea hoki kia whakaotia i runga i to te ture ritenga me kaua i paahitia tenei Ture, ka ahei kia whakaotia atu kite Poari i roto i nga takiwa i whakaaetia kia whakahaerea te Ture nei i roto. Kua paahitia tenei rarangi i runga ano i tona ake tikanga. No. 27. Ka ahei te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera kite hanga i nga huarahi whakahaere c tau ana hei whakatutuki i nga tikanga o tenei ture. Kupu Apiti. —Ka ahei te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera kite whakaae kite tono atu a nga Poari kia mahia mai etahi ture hei whakakaha i aua Poari, hei whakapumau hoki i tenei Ture katoa mo ake tonu atu. Ko tahi huinga o nga Poari i roto ite tau. Ko nga rarangi katoa o tenei Ture me noho katoa te komiti poraka ki raro i nga mema o te Poari.

APPENDIX J. He Eipoata ma te Komiti o Ngatihineuru mo te Pire a te Pirimia o te Paremete o te Koroni. 2, 3, 4, 5. Me whakatu he poari whenua Maori mo ia takiwa mo ia takiwa, ko nga mema mo taua Poari ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna me etahi Pakeha tokorua ma te Kawana raua c whakatu, me etahi Maori tokotoru me ata pooti ratou mo nga tau c toru c nga tangata Maori no ratou nga whanua Maori i roto i ia o aua takiwa ra. 6, 7. Ka whai korama te Poari ma ka noho nga mema tokowha kia tokorua Pakeha kia tokorua Maori o ratou. 8, 9,10. Ko te whakaetanga o te komiti poraka o nga tangata no ratou te whenua kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o te nei Ture i roto i etahi takiwa c taea ana i runga i te peneitanga, ara ka taea c te Kawana te whakamana i runga i te pitihana a etahi tangata kia rua te kau maha atu ranei o nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 11. A te whakaaetanga a te komiti poraka o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture i roto i tetahi takiwa, me tau nga whenua Maori kite Poari me te whai mana ano o nga riana me era atu taunaha c tika ana i runga ito te Ture tikanga. Ko te tikanga o tenei kupu whenua Maori, he whenua papatupu me era atu whenua a nga Maori haunga ia nga whenua kua hokona c ratou i te Karauna i te Pakeha ranei, whenua ranei c tau, nei nga tikanga o te Ture c whai ake nei ki runga, 12, 13. Ka whai mana te Poari i runga i te whakaae a te komiti poraka o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua kite riihi i nga whenua Maori mo te wa kia kaua c neke ake i te rua tekau ma tahi nga tau, me te whakauru me te kore whakauru ranei i te kupu whakae kia whakaroaina te riihi mo te tahi atu wa kia kaua c neke atu i te rua tekau ma tahi -nga tau i raro i nga tikanga o nga huarahi whakahaere kei ta te Poari c whakaaro ana c tika ana te ritenga.

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14, 15. E whai mana ana te Poari i runga i te whakaritenga a te komiti poraka o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua kite wehe i etahi whenua hei wahi mahinga hei wahi nohoanga mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua i runga i nga tikanga me nga ritenga c whakaarohia ana c ratou c tika ana me te wehe hoki i etahi whenua hei urupa, hei tuunga kura, hei tuunga whare karakia, mo etahi atu tikanga ranei c pai ana mo te katoa. 16. Ka ahei te Poari i runga i te whakaaetanga a te komiti poraka o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua kite whakahaere tikanga mo te tuku whenua Maori kite Kuini mo te mahi mama i runga i nga tikanga o " Te Ture Mama, 1891," ko nga moni c puta mai ana i nga whenua pera katoa i runga i te mahi mama, me utu atu c te kai-whakahaere o te whenua mahi koura kite Poari hei painga mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 17, 18, 19. Ka ahei te Poari i runga ite whakaaetanga a te komiti poraka o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua kite whakahaere moni i runga i te mahi hanga, whakapai hoki i nga rori, tiriti me te mahi ruri, me te whakatuwhera whenua i runga i te ritenga whakanohonoho tangata, me era atu tikanga ranei c ahei ana kite whakahaere i runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture o nga huarahi whakahaere ranei. 20, 21, 22. Ko nga moni c puta mai ana kite Poari i runga i nga whenua Maori i runga i te whakaaetanga a te komiti poraka o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua, me whakahaere i runga i enei ritenga, ara : (1) hei utu i te mahi whakahaere ; (2) hei whakaea i nga mokete me nga riena c tau ana kia utua; (3) hei utu i nga moni toenga ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua i runga ite ritenga o to te tangata paanga. 23. Ka ahei te Poari i runga i te whakaaetanga a te komiti poraka o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua kite nama i etahi moni i te Kawanatanga neke ake i te £5,000 i roto i etahi tau mo te mahi hanga rori, mahi ruri, me te whakatuwhera whenua i runga i te ritenga whakanohonoho tangata. 24, 25, 26, 27. I runga i te tono a nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua c whai tikanga ana, ka ahei te Poari i runga i te whakaaetanga a te komiti poraka o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua kite nama i etahi moni i te Kawanatanga neke ake i te £5,000 i rotoi tetahi tau hei whakaea i nga mokete i etahi, atu taunaha ranei i tau ki runga ki nga whenua i te wa i whakaaetia kia whakahaerea te Ture nei i roto, me etahi moni neke ake i te £1,000, hei utu i nga nama tarewa a nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua. Wiremu Pikai, Te kai-whakatakoto ki runga kite tepu o te Komiti.

APPENDIX K. Whakarapopototanga i nga tikanga o te Ture Tiaki Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori. 1. I runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, me roherohe a takiwa te koroni nei ara : Ma ia iwi ma ia iwi c roherohe a takiwa mo ratou ake ano. 2. Me whakatu he Poari whenua Maori mo ia takiwa mo ia takiwa, ko nga mema mo taua Poari, ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna, me tetahi Pakeha kia kotahi, ma te Kawana c whakatu, me etahi Maori kia tokotoru, me ata pooti ratou mo nga tau c toru c nga tangata Maori no ratou nga whenua Maori i roto i ia takiwa i ia takiwa, a me tino whakatuturu tonu hei tikanga te whakatu mema Maori mo te Poari i ia toru tau, i ia toru tau. 4. Me tv ko te Komihana o nga Whenua o te Karauna hei Tiamana mo te Poari, i runga i tona tuunga Komihana. Engari me whai pooti whakatau anake ia, aki te ngaro atu ia, me whakatu c ia te mema Pakeha hei Teputi Tiamana. 5. Me whai pooti te Teputi Tiamana. Pera me era atu mema me te pooti whakatau hoki. 6. Ka whai koarama te Poari, ma ka noho nga mema c toru. Engari kia kotahi me Pakeha, kia tokorua me Maori. 7. Me pa te Ture whakakore mema o te 1878 ki nga mema Maori o te Poari. 8. Ko te whakaaetanga kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture i roto i etahi takiwa c taea ana i runga i te peneitanga, ara : Ka taea c te Kawana te whakamana i runga i te pitihana a etahi tangata kia rua tekau maha atu ranei o nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 9. Ite taenga ote pitihana kite Kawana. Me perehi eia kite Gazette me te Kahiti me te tono hoki kia whakaaturia mai nga kupu whakahe. 10. Xi te puta nga kupu whakahe o nga tangata c rua tekau o era atu o nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua kite pitihana. Me whakatau taua mea i runga ite pooti a nga tangata katoa no ratou te whenua. Me whai mana enei tikanga c mau nei ite tekiona 8, tekiona 9, tekiona 10, ki nga whenua motuhake, i pitihanatia nei c nga tangata epa ana ki taua poraka. A kaua epa ki katoa o te whenua c takoto ana i roto i taua rohe kua taka nei kei raro i te Poari a ko nga panui whakahe kite pitihana me whakaroa atu te takiwa kia kaua c nuku atu ite ono tekau ra. 11. A te whakaaetanga kia whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture i roto i tetahi takiwa, me tau nga whenua Maori c whakaaetia c nga Maori kite Poari, me te whai mana ano o nga taunaha c tika ana i runga i to te ture ritenga, ara, nga taunaha anake kua puta nei i roto i te Kooti Whenua Maori i mua atu ote paahitanga o tenei Ture. Te tikanga o tenei kupu whenua Maori, he whenua papatupu, me era atu whenua o nga Maori, haunga ia nga whenua kua hokona c ratou i te Karauna i te Pakeha ranei, whenua ranei c tau nei nga tikanga o nga ture c whai ake nei ki runga : (1) "Te Ture mo nga Takiwa Ngawha, 1881"; (2) "Te Ture Whenua Eahui i Poutini me Whakatu, 1887 "; (3) " Te Ture Whakatau Eahui o te Tai Hauauru, 1892 " ; me "Te Ture Taone Maori, 1895." 12. Ka whai mana te Poari kite riihi i nga whenua Maori mo te wa, kia kaua c neke ake ite rua tekau ma tahi nga tau, me te whakauru, me te kore whakauru ranei i te kupu whakaae kia

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whakaroaina te riihi mo tetahi atu wa kia kaua c neke atu i te rua tekau ma tahi nga tau, i raro i nga tikanga o nga huarahi whakahaere. Kei ta te Poari c whakaaro ana c tika aua te ritenga. Engari, c kore nga tikanga o tenei tekiona c pa atu ki nga whenua kua riihitia i mua atu i te paabitanga o tenei Ture, c takoto ana kei roto i tetahi takiwa kua rohea i raro i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, me era atu whenua c whakapaia ana, kua whakapaia ranei c nga Maori c nohoia ana c ratou, c taka ana he hipi, he kau me era atu taonga a te iwi Maori kei runga, kua taiepatia, c timata ana ranei kite taiepa, kua whakatipuria kite karaihe me era atu painga mo te whenua. 13. E kore c taea te hoko he whenua i roto i tetahi takiwa kua whakahaerea nga tikanga o tenei Ture i roto, i muri iho i tenei, haunga te mahi whakaoti i etahi tikanga mo te hoko, i timataria i runga ito te Ture ritenga i mua ote paahitanga o tenei Ture. Ako nga whenua pera, me tino wehe rawa atu nga hea o nga whenua kua hokoa tikatia, i runga i nga mana o nga Ture, i te wa i hokoa ai aua whenua. 14. E whai mana ana te Poari kite wehe i etahi whenua i runga ite whakaae a nga Maori no ratou te whenua. Me te ata tohutohu i nga rohe me te nui o nga eka me nga rohe c tika ana c pai ana mo ratou, hei rahui, hei wahi mahinga, nohoanga mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua. Me te wehe hoki i etahi whenua hei urupa, hei tuunga kura hei tuunga wharekarakia, me te rahui hoki i era atu whenua ngahere i waho atu i tenei hei puhanga maun, hei patunga tuna ranei. 15. Ite tukunga whenua Maori i runga ite riihi. Me matua whakahaere te Poari ite tikanga mo nga tono riihi c whakaaetia ana c nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 16. Ka ahei te Poari kite whakahaere tikanga mo te tuku whenua Maori ki ate Kuini mo te mahi mama, i runga i nga tikanga o " Te Ture Mama, 1891," ko nga moni c puta mai ana i nga whenua pera katoa, i runga i te mahi mama me utu atu c te kai-whakahaere o te whenua mahi koura kite Poari, hei painga mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua. 17. Ka ahei te Poari kite whakahaere moni i runga ite mahi hanga, whakapai hoki i nga rori, tiriti, me te mahi whakatuwhera whenua i runga i te ritenga whakanohonoho tangata, me era atu tikanga ranei c ahei ana kia whakahaerea i runga i nga tikanga o tenei Ture o nga huarahi whakahaere ranei. 18. Ka tau nga mana ki runga kite Poari, c whakataua ana ki runga ki a ratou c nga huarahi whakahaere, ara, i nga mana anake kei roto i tenei Ture. 19. Ka pena ano te mana whakahaere o te Poari ki runga ki nga whenua kua whakataua ki a ratou me nga mana whakahaere o te Kooti Whenua Maori mo runga i te mahi wehewehe, whakatu kai-riwhi, whakatau i te nui o te paanga o ia tangata o ia tangata i runga i nga whakariterite a nga tangata Maori no ratou aua whenua. Me te whakatu kai-tiaki mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua, i hapa nei ratou i runga i to te ture ritenga. 20. Ko nga moni c puta mai ana kite Poari i runga i nga whenua Maori, me whakahaere i runga i enei ritenga, ara : (1) Hei utu ite mahi whakahaere ; (2) Hei whakaea mokete, me era atu mea c tau ana kia utua ; (3) Hei utu i nga moni toenga ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua i runga i te ritenga o to te tangata paanga. 21. E kore c taea c te tangata nona te whenua te tuku i tona paanga ki tetahi whenua Maori i roto i tetahi takiwa i whakaaetia kia whakahaerea te Ture nei i roto. Heoi kau te tuku c taea. Ko te tuku a wira ki tetahi atu Maori. 22. E kore te whenua i roto i te takiwa pera, c taea te muru te hoko ranei mo te nama. 23. Ka ahei te Poari kite nama i etahi moni ite Kawanatanga kia kaua c iti iho ite mano pauna, kia kaua hoki c nuku atu i te tekau mano pauna, i roto i tetahi tau mo te mahi hanga rori, mahi ruri, me te whakatuwhera whenua i runga i te ritenga whakanohonoho tangata, a, ko aua moni i namaia nei, me tau iho ano ki runga kite whenua, ki nga- whenua ranei i whakapaua nei aua moni ki runga, a, manga moni ano c puta mai ana i aua whenua, i taua whenua ranei c whakaea aua moni i namaia ra. 24. E whakakorea atu ana tenei tekiona c te tekiona rua-tekau-ma-toru c mau i runga ake nei. 25. Ko nga moni he mea pera te namanga i te Kawanatanga me nga tikanga c mau nei i roto i te tekiona rua-tekau-ma-rima, c ahei ana hei whakaea i aua moni nama c mau ra i te tekiona rua-tekau-ma-toru o tenei Ture, ms utu atu kite Kawanatanga me nga moni hua c rima pauna i roto i te rau, i runga i te ritenga utu i etahi moni, he mea ata whakarite te nui i roto i ia tau i ia tau, mo te wa neke ake i te wha tekau ma rua nga tau. Ako aua utu tau ra me tango mai i roto i nga moni c puta mai ana mo nga tangata Maori no ratou te whenua i nama nei aua moni ra mo ratou. 26. Ko nga hoko a te Karauna kaore i whakaotia, me nga whakahaerenga a nga tangata noa iho i timataria i runga i me o te ture ritenga, a i taea hoki kia whakaotia i runga i o te ture ritenga, kaua i paahitia tenei ture, ka ahei kia whakaotia atu kite Poari i roto i nga takiwa i whakaaetia kia whakahaere te Ture nei i roto. 27. Ka ahei te Kawana i rotoi tona Kaunihera kite hanga i nga huarahi whakahaere c tau ana hei whakatutuki i nga tikanga o tenei Ture, engari kaua c pa nga whakatutukitanga a te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera kite whakarereke i nga tekiona o tenei Ture, kite whakauru mai ranei i etahi kupu ke atu, a muri atu ranei i te paahitanga o tenei Ture.

APPENDIX L. Petition to Hbb Majesty the Queen. [Translation.] Xi to matou Kuini atawhai ki a Kuini Wikitoria. He mihi aroha atu tenei na to Iwi Maori o Niu Tireni ki a koe ki to matou whaea, kai-awhina hoki i raro i nga whakaaetanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi. 19—1. 3a.

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Tena koe i raro ite atawhai o te Atua, nana nei ou ra i whakaroa c noho ana 1 runga i te Torona ou tupuna. A c tino tumanako ana matou o tamariki aroha kia whakaroaina atu ano ou.ra c to tatou Matua i te rangi. Ko Niu Tireni hoki to tamaiti tuatahi i whanau mai nei i a koe i muri iho i nga ra o tou whaka-kuinitanga. Aka inoi atu nei hoki matou ki a koe kia atawhaitia c koe to iwi Maori c noho nei i enei Motu i raro ano i to mana. He mea pai, he mea nui rawa hoki, hei tohu mo te roanga o ou ra c Kuini ana mo matou, kia pai koe kite whakaae i tetahi tikanga rahui tuturu, c toe ai te morehu oou matou whenua hei wai-u mo to iwi Maori ake, ake. Ina hoki ote timatanga mai ano o te Koroni tae mai ki naianei nui atu i te ono tekau miriona eka kua riro atu i te Pakeha me te Karauna, c rima ano miriona eka nui atu iti iho ranei c toe ana ki to iwi Maori i naianei Kei te hiahia o iwi Maori kite mahi oranga ano mo ratou i runga i o ratou morehu whenua, i runga i nga huarahi mahi paamu, a ko nga wahi kaore c taea c matou te mahi, kei te whakaae matou kite reti atu i runga i nga huarahi whakanohonoho tangata. Engari kaore o iwi Maori c hiahia ana kia riro atu aua morehu whenua i o matou ringaringa, he mea kua tino mohio matou, heoi nei ano te wai-u mo matou me o matou uri, ake, ake. Kaati, c rite ai tenei inoi ki a koe a o iwi Maori, me paahi rawa he ture hei tino kati, hei tino arai i te Pakeha noaiho me te Karauna kia mutu te hoko i o matou morehu whenua. Kua kore hoki nga raruraru i oho ai nga ngakau o nga iwi c rua i nga ra o mua, kua noho pai i naianei i raro i to maru, penei hoki me nga tini iwi i raro i to mana, c tatua nei i te ao katoa. Heoi, kia ora koe c te Kuini, ma te Atua koe c manaaki, c tiaki, me to whanau, me au Minita, me au kai-whakahaere katoa i raro i to mana. E Ihowa Tohungia a te Kuini. Approximate Cost of Paper. —Preparation, not given ; printing 11,000 coptesi, £82 ss. 6a\

By Authority : John Maokay, Government Printer, Wellington.—lBi)B.

Price 2s. 6d.\