I.—3a.

14

32. They would agree that all land should have a title bestowed upon it somehow ?—To the Native owners, yes.' 33. Are you prepared to allow the cost of the ascertainment of the title to be borne by the land ?—No ; that expense should be borne by the colony. There is a sum of £7,000 a year regularly set apart by the Queen for her Maori people. I think that a scheme should be worked out something like the Native Land Court now. 34. But is not the cost of survey a charge on the land now ? —-Yes. It is quite right that should be done, because it is the fact of survey having been made which shows that the Native has a title which is defined. 35. Should it not be charged against the land, so that the man getting his title may know that he is getting a clean one ?—Yes. 36. You told us that thirty-seven thousand Natives wanted to support the Treaty of Waitangi; what did you mean by that ? —That is to say, they wanted to be given the rights they claim to hold under that treaty—the right to manage their own affairs, and make laws for themselves, and rules in connection with the management of their lands. 37. Would you consider it wise to create separate laws for the Maori people and the white people? — No; Ido not say that. I am not responsible for that opinion. That is what is provided for in the Treaty of Waitangi, and in the 57th section of " The Constitution Act, 1852." 38. Do you advocate a different law for the Maoris under the Treaty of Waitangi ? —No. I would not go so far as to say that, but I think the demands which the Maoris make, and the concessions they ask for, should be granted to them by the Parliament of this country under the Treaty of Waitangi. 39. If the Natives were intrusted with the management of their own lands, do you think they would be competent to manage them as the Europeans do?—I believe they would. It would be for this Parliament to see that they did so. If the Parliament gave them power to do as they want, it would see that they did it properly. 40. Do you think it would be wise to give them power to deal with their lands as Europeans do?—I think so. 41. Then, in that case, do you understand that, except perhaps making certain lands inalienable, it is not possible to refuse to give them the power to sell?—I think that might be remedied. Give them the control and management of their affairs, but let the Parliament lay down a hard-and-fast rule that all sales shall be stopped either to the Government or to any other person. 42. Then, according to your own words, you want a different law for the Natives from that for the Europeans? —Yes. When you spoke before I understood you to mean a separate Parliament. 43. Does not that tend to justify the Government in bringing in a Bill with restrictive powers? —The restrictions as to sale, as provided by the Premier's Bill, are quite right. I do not cavil against them, but it is the spreading-out of the arms and legs in every direction that we object to. Is there anything in the Bill to restrict sale ? 44. I want the general view of the Maoris, and not a discussion on the Bill. Do you think it would not advance the civilisation of the Maori if he was given his own land to himself instead of holding it under a Board ? —Yes. Let them frame the machinery which is to divide the land in that manner. 45. Bight Hon. B. J. Seddon.] Let us make that clear. Is it not subject to the restriction that they must not sell on any account —is not that so? —Yes. That is what we have asked you. We have made continual representations to the Premier asking that a stoppage should be put on all sales of Native lands, even of those that are under negotiation for sale to the Government, but the Premier's reply to us has been that the purchases of the blocks already commenced must be completed. 46. Supposing they fail to lease or to utilise their lands in any way —supposing they are given the right to manage their lands, with the restriction that they shall in no way sell them, and they never lease or utilise them —what then ? —That is just what we want to do. We want the balance of our lands which we cannot work ourselves thrown open for lease or settlement. That is in the congratulatory address to the Queen. 47. Captain Bussell.] Would you sooner the control of the land was vested in the same power —that is, that the title should be individualised and the land placed on the same conditions as Europeans' ? —I think it would be better that they should be allowed to constitute a Board, to be all Maoris, to decide whether they would rather that their land should be individualised and each person's interest allocated, or whether they would agree to hold the land, or whatever they might decide upon ; but that the Parliament should be in the position of a father with respect to the Board, and give its consent to what it might do. 48. Do you disapprove of the idea of giving each man his own land to settle upon with his family ? —I am quite willing that should be so, but the Board should do that itself. The Board should make these regulations and allocations. 49. What I am driving at is this: I want the idea of the Maoris whether they wish to be owners of their own lands, if they have any, knowing they must sooner or later come under the same laws as the Europeans. Are they prepared to face that ? —There is no argument against that. If a Maori desired to have his title issued to him there would be no objection. 50. Then he would be allowed to mortgage or sell ?—The Maori would look upon the Maori as a Maori still. Ido not see why that power should not be given to the Maori if his land were once his own. 51. Do you think the Maori would then go and waste it in any way, and in time become landless ?—lf a man was desirous of doing himself an injury, and cutting his own throat in that way, he could not blame anybody else for it. He would only have himself to blame.