11

I.—3a.

signed by twenty-one persons to the petition signed by the twenty persons, the Governor and his Council must be satisfied in their own minds that the twenty-one objectors have reasonable and justifiable grounds for objecting to the petition of the original applicants. Then the Governor refers the matter to be voted for in the district which it is proposed to bring under operation of the Act —that is to say, to be voted for or against by the people of that district. I say that such a proceeding as that is offering a premium to all sorts of trouble, and cannot result but in quarrelling and disagreement and heavy expenses. The people are bound to be divided, and those who are interested, will be called upon by people holding extremely opposite views. One will say, " Come with us and have the Board put into operation in the district " ; and the others will say, " Do not have anything to do with it." When the result of the poll is known, if the majority of the votes are against the Board being brought into operation in the district, then the petition of the twentyone to the Governor to have the Act put into operation is of no effect. The trouble is this: that if the petition signed by the twenty-one original applicants to the Governor to declare the Act in operation in a given district is opposed, and the result of the voting called for by the Governor afterwards disagrees to that, that does not put a stop to it. After the lapse of six months the persons desirous to have the Act adopted in a district can apply again in the same way; and the same process can go on year after year every six months, and there will be no end to it. I shall ask to be allowed to read subsection (6) of section 18 : "The Board may expend money in laying off, forming, and maintaining roads or streets, making surveys, and opening up land for settlement, and for any other purpose authorised by this Act or the regulations thereunder." I think that all Native tribes in this country are of one mind in saying this : that the present laws in connection with Native-land survey have been one of the most powerful factors in swamping Native lands with debt. The practice is that the laws in connection with the survey of Native lands which are now in force, when large blocks of land of 40,000, or 50,000, or 60,000, or 90,000 acres are surveyed, are causing the people to continually weep about what has been done. Now, what will be done under this Bill after all the lands already surveyed will have been cut up into small pieces, some to be leased and some to be settled upon ? I think that this will show that the revenue accruing from each of these blocks will not be sufficient to pay the cost of survey. 12. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] How are the surveys paid for now?— Well, as to how the expenses of survey are paid for now I can only speak as to my own district. When the survey cost is made a charge on a block, and also the cost of investigating it, it means that a portion of the block is cut off to pay the cost of surveying, leaving the balance to the owners. It is a poor country where I come from, and if this Act is brought into operation there, and the lands are cut up into small pieces, when it costs so much to make the original survey, how much more will be the expenses under this Bill ? The land is too poor to bear the expenses. I think that, having given our views on the various sections and clauses of this Bill, to which I have referred in my remarks up to the present, and having explained my objections to them, and to the evils which we anticipate will result from them, there is no occasion for me to remark on the remainder of the sections, because they are all bad. Now, sir, in support of our objections to this Bill I should like to be allowed to add a few words, apart from any reference to the Bill itself. I have endeavoured to show that there are many reasons why this Bill is not at all satisfactory; and, sir, my first reason for saying so is this: There was a Bill taken round the country and exhibited and explained to the Natives at different huis and meetings in different parts of the country. It was quite a different Bill from this. There was one hui in the Waikato, and the Premier went there. There was a hid at Waipatu. Mr. Carroll went there and the Premier also, and there they showed the Native people the original Bill. Then, again, there was the kotahitanga hui at Papawai. There the Bill was called the proposed Native Protection Bill, and it was a very different Bill from this. The Bill which was taken round by the Premier to these various meetings contained twentyeight clauses. The Bill which was brought round by the Premier and Mr. Carroll and explained to the Natives at these various meetings was a very different one from this. The Natives were told that the Government wished to protect the Natives and to maintain them in their lands, and that was the purport of the Bill which they were going to introduce to Parliament. But when the real Bill is brought down we find that it contains forty-nine sections instead of twenty-eight, and to these fortynine sections are added six Acts which are already in force. I have explained in reading section 47 the Acts to which I refer, under which this Bill is to be constituted. With these other Acts added it makes this Bill entirely different to that brought round to the huis. I say that shows, firstly, that this Bill has never been shown to the Natives; secondly, it shows that the explanation made of the first Bill which was brought round and exhibited at these huis cannot apply to the Bill which is now the subject of inquiry before this Committee; thirdly, when the original Bill was brought before the hui at Papawai the Natives there drew up a schedule of amendments and resolutions. It was at the Premier's own request and suggestion that the people did this. He said to the people at the hui that he requested them to bring in what amendments they proposed to the Bill. He said, in fact, " The Bill is only a baby, and you must look after its hands and feet to see that they are not out of shape, so that when it grows up it shall be a nice man to look at." Well, sir, the people and chiefs there assembled did the best they could for that baby. They did so, but, unfortunately, now that that has been done, it shows that they were wasting their efforts on the shadow of a Bill when the real body of it was never shown to them. Fourthly, this all goes to show that now is the time for the Premier and those who support this measure to submit it again to the Natives of the country, and ask them to doctor its hands and its feet, for this is the first time that the whole body has been exposed to the people. Before it was only the head that was shown to them. 13. Have you got the amendments which were passed and which you have referred to?— Yes. [Copy of amendments produced. See Appendices.] Therefore I would again refer the Committee to the last clause of the petition, which reads: "Your petitioners, according to the