I.—3a.

68. I want an expression of your own opinion as to whether that would be a good thing or whether it would do harm ?—I think it would do good. 69. Do you not think that it would be in the interest of the Native people, and give them an incentive to active effort, if each man and his family were put upon land, and he had to labour as a European does for himself and his children?—Oh, yes, I quite admit that. I am quite willing to express my own opinion as believing that if that were done it would probably offer the incentive suggested; but it should be the kotahitanga who should make these arrangements. 70. Is it possible for one large Board to administer the titles throughout the whole country? Would it not require local knowledge and local Boards ?—That is quite so. If the runanga decides that it is necessary to constitute separate small Boards to deal with separate districts, let it be done. 71. Would it not be well that some distinguished white man should help and guide them in that ? Ido not mean to override them in their action, but to help and guide them ? —I think it would be perfectly right and perfectly proper that European members should be appointed to these Boards, if the Maori Council so decided. 72. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] You admitted yesterday that the message sent to the Queen was from yourselves ?—Yes; but when I say " yes " I only use the word as a general reply to the question, because I myself did not sign the message personally. 73. In that message it is stated, " We, your Maori subjects, desire therefore to retain and utilise our surviving lands ourselves, and any portions we may not be able to cultivate we are willing, and will be pleased, to lease for the purpose of settlement and the development of the colony." Are you willing to agree to that?—l am entirely willing to agree to that, provided it is what is decided upon by the runanga. 74. I want you to leave aside the runanga—l want you to give me an answer whether you, as an individual, will admit that that is a good principle ? —Well, I do not see how I can leave any reference to the kotahitanga out of my reply, because this address itself was drawn up by the kotahitanga. 75. But are you not in favour of some such principle—that is, that the balance of the Native lands shall be utilised by themselves firstly, and what they cannot so utilise shall be leased on some principle for settlement and the development of the colony ? —Yes ; but what I contend is that this Native Lands Settlement and Administration Bill does not give effect to what is outlined in this message. That is why we object to the Bill. 76. Very well; what will give effect to that principle ?—Mana, or power given by this Parliament to the runanga to make laws, rules, and regulations to control these matters. 77. Then, you think the only solution of this question is by Parliament giving power to your confederation to make what laws they think fit for the administration of the Native lands ?—That is so. 78. Do you not think the Parliament would, first of all, before it gave you that power, ask you to make it clear on what lines you are going to legislate ? —The whole matter has already been explained to you, Mr. Carroll, personally, and you are in possession of the information. The Chairman: But the Committee wants the information. Mr. Kaihau : Ido not think the Parliament are children. I think they know perfectly well what the Treaty of Waitangi provides, and also what is provided by the New Zealand Constitution Act. As I understand the witness, he claims that under those two laws the Maoris have a right to demand that they shall be allowed to constitute a runanga, Te Heuheu : A Bill called the Native Eights Bill was the first measure drawn up by the Maoris to show what they wanted in connection with this matter. Then there was the Maori Councils Constitution Bill. This is the next. 79. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] I want you to show to the Committee some practical form which you have conceived in your own mind, or which you have thought over, for dealing with the administration of the balance of the Native lands. You state that it is the desire of the Natives that there should be no more selling of land, but that the land shall, in the first place, be used for their own benefit, and, secondly, for settlement and the development of the colony. I want you to give the Committee some idea of how that can practically be given effect to? —If I understand the question, I have already replied to it. I say the reply to such a question* as that is contained in the two Bills —the Native Eights Bill and the Maori Councils Constitution Bill. Now, the Board Bill, for which the Premier and Mr. Carroll are responsible, and which is lying before you, does not contain a single one of the amendments which were brought down for inclusion in it. 80. Leaving these Bills alone, and supposing Parliament were to say to you, " Mr. Te Heuheu, draft some Bill which you think will meet the case, and provide for the better administration of Native lands, and give effect to the wishes of the Maori people," how would you start ?—The first thing I should do would be to provide for the constitution of a kotahitanga to give effect to the wishes expressed in the message to the Queen. 81. The first thing would be to establish a Council for the whole of the colony, as I understand y OU ?—That really has been stated long ago by the Maoris themselves. 82. Ido not want to know what has been done. lam now taking you on step by step. I understand you to say that the first work would be to establish a Council for the colony to carry out the wishes of the Native people ?—lf the Government would only authorise it it would not be long before it would be constituted. 83. Well, now, what would be the constitution of that Council ? Would it be elective first of all ?—The members would be voted for. The machinery for all that has been already arranged for. It was done in 1892. 84. Would you parcel the colony into electorates for the purpose of electing members to the Council ?—Yes; that has already been arranged for.

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