I.—3a.

treaty assures to them their right to manage their own-affairs to the best advantage to themselves. That is what they want to do. 123. I will read article the second of the treaty: "Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the chiefs and tribes of New Zealand, and to the respective families and individuals thereof, the full, exclusive, and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries, and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess, so longas it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession ; but the chiefs of the united tribes and the individual chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of pre-emption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate, at such prices as may be agreed upon between the respective proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them on that behalf." Is that what you refer to?— Yes. I have pointed out that it is under this article we ask for the appointment of the runanga. We want effect given to that article. Paragraph 3(c), of our petition says, " that such proposals are contrary to the letter and spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi, and to the rights of the Natives as British subjects." 124. Very well; we will take the first part of that article, "Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the chiefs and tribes of New Zealand, and to the respective families and individuals thereof, the full, exclusive, and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates." Has that been broken ? I know it is said by the Natives that the Treaty of Waitangi has been trampled on ; I ask you, has that been broken ?—I will give my own opinion. Yes ; the first provisions of article the second of the treaty have been broken. 125. How ?—lt has been trampled on in this way : that it has never been given effect to. The rights which that article assures to the Natives have never been given to them. 126. Have they not got titles to their lands?—Oh, yes ; that is so; but it was all done by the pakehas, every bit of it. When first Parliament sat in Auckland it was all Europeans, and there were no Maori members. When the Maori members first came into Parliament they did not know what was being done. They simply did as they were told. 127. Has not the Crown given the Maori people a title to their lands where it has been proved? —Yes ; as the Crown saw fit. 128. Wherever they proved that the lands belonged to them and not to anybody else ?—Yes but I should like to point out that the Maoris only acquiesced in this arrangement simply because of their utter ignorance of what was being done. The Crown would suggest that a thing should be done in a particular way, and they said, " Oh, aye," because they did not understand. I know that for many years subsequent to that—and, in fact, the practice still exists—the Maoris have held huis and meetings to devise some means to enforce their demands. 129. Is not that carrying out the spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi? —What I say is this: The first thing that brought home to the Natives that they were being had was this : A law was passed empowering the issue of Crown grants to one or more on behalf of others, and they discovered it was competent for these Crown-grantees to sell the land to the detriment of the other owners, and the Natives did their best to put a stop to that. The first concession—and, in fact, the only concession—they got was that it was then provided that the name of every Crown-grantee should be written on the back of the title—the memorial of ownership or the certificate issued under the Act of 1867 : I do not remember the name of the document. It was owing to the cry of the Maoris that the original Crown-grant system with only ten owners in the grant was done away with, and this was put in its place. Then the Maoris found another cause for crying, and the redress they got was the certificate of title, putting all the owners of the land in it. Then, there was an Act passed in the year 1873 ;I do not remember the name of it, but it affected the Native lands. The cry of the Maoris has been that they should be allowed to make the law themselves under the rights conferred upon them by the Treaty of Waitangi, but the Crown holds on to all these privileges, and refuses to surrender them, and only gives little trifling concessions to the Natives. From then up to the present the Government has continued to act in the.same way towards the Maoris. So now all we say is this : You people have had the control and disposal of 'these lands for a long time, and you have proved that you cannot use them for our benefit; they have slipped away from us continually. Give us the control ourselves; we ought to be considered. 130. I suppose they have all sold interest in some of their lands in their time ? —I have. 131. Under what power did they sell: was it under the Treaty of Waitangi?—That is why we inserted this clause in the address to the Queen: " This, however, our wish, desire, and request can only be given effect to by passing such legislation prohibiting for ever the sale of our surviving lands to the Crown and private persons." 132. Then, you want to alter the spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi ? —Only with regard to that part of the Treaty of Waitangi which cedes to the Queen our rights. 133. And your power to sell your lands ? —Yes ; and to immediately put a stop to the Crown purchases by the Land Purchase Office. Although this has been submitted strongly to the Government, they do not put a stop to land purchases by land-purchase officers. They still go on mopping up the land. Hon. Mr. Carroll: You could only do that by passing a Bill. Up to the present the Government has stopped entering into new purchases. We have listened to that part of the Natives' request, and if we can arrive at a better understanding with the Natives we will stop the others too.

Tuesday, 4th Octobee, 1898. Mr. Te Heuheu in attendance: examination continued. 134. Mr. Monk.] You expressed yourself, I thought, with a touch of sarcasm, that the Queen or the English Government had heard that the New-Zealanders were fine men and women, and so they came and took possession of the country ?—No; I did not intend to be sarcastic. I was

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