7

I—3A

to this section is that the Board is empowered to take from the owners of lands part of their land and give it to other Natives who have no land ; and it further provides that the balance remaining after the owners of that land shall be allotted interests, and the persons who have no land shall be provided for, that the balance of the land shall be dealt with by the Board. Ido not mean to say it would be seized from them, but that these people who have no land will be provided for out of the lands of the people who have. I say it is for the benefit of everybody that this is proposed. Hon. Mr. Carroll: Where all applications are equal, if any preference should be given it would be given to those applicants who are landless. That is all the length the clause goes. Te Heuheu: Now, we can very easily see that if this Bill is carried into effect it would mean this : that by the time the people who had rights get their share and the people who have no land get theirs, the balance remaining will be the worst of the land. What we ask ourselves is this : Will this mountainous and, comparatively speaking, valueless land be desired by anybody to do anything with when the Board has it under its control. That is why I object to that section. Now, as to subclause (c) of clause 3, " That such proposals are contrary to the letter and spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi, and to the rights of the Natives as British subjects." I shall not take a great deal of time over this clause. I say that what we understand, and what we have always understood, is this : that section 2 of the Treaty of Waitangi assures to the Natives all their rights, title, and management of their own affairs. No doubt, the Committee are familiar with that paragraph of the Treaty of Waitangi. It provides, " Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the chiefs and tribes of New Zealand, and to the representative families and individuals thereof, the full, exclusive, and undisturbed possession of their lands and estates, forests, fisheries, and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess, so long as it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession ; but the chiefs of the united tribes and the individual chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of pre-emption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate, at such prices as may be agreed upon between the representative proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them in that behalf." Now, this Native Board Bill provides for the absolute wiping-out of all the rights that are assured and confirmed to the Natives under the Treaty of Waitangi. We know that in section 71 of the Constitution Act of 1852 it says, " And whereas it may be expedient that the laws, customs, and usages of the aboriginal or Native inhabitants of New Zealand, so far as they are not repugnant to the general principles of humanity, should for the present be maintained for the government of themselves in all their relations to and dealings with each other, and that particular districts should be set apart within which such laws, customs, or usages should be so observed, it shall be lawful for Her Majesty, in and by any Letters Patent to be issued under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom, from time to time to make provision for the purposes aforesaid, any repugnancy of any such Native laws, customs, or usages, law of England, or to any law, statute, or usage in force in New Zealand, or in any part thereof, in any wise notwithstanding." Hon. Mr. GarroU : In those days power was taken under this section to set aside, when practicable, Native districts, to be administered only in regard to their own affairs under some form of council or local body. Te Heuheu: These rights have never been objected to by the Maoris from the time of the Treaty of Waitangi up to the present time, nor have the pakehas either objected to them. In fact, in our opinion this Bill is the first occasion upon which we have been sought to be deprived of these rights, because the agreeing of the 512 chiefs and old people at the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 has never been objected to, nor has exception been taken to the action of these old chiefs, either by partition or in any other way, until now. If we were to agree to this Bill now we should be doing so. What the tribes in New Zealand wish to accomplish is this : They wish to support all the measures that would provide for the carrying-out of the privileges conferred upon them by the Treaty of Waitangi and the Constitution Act of 1852. This Committee is, no doubt, aware that there is a runanga, or Native committee, which has been sitting during the last seven years past. I refer to the kotahitanga committee or movement, and the people who have agreed to support the Treaty of Waitangi and its provisions number thirty-seven thousand. The names are all written down, so as to be certain that we are correct in saying that these persons have bound themselves together to uphold the Treaty of Waitangi and its provisions. This Committee is, no doubt, aware of a certain Bill—that is, a number of resolutions and amendments proposed by the Maori meeting at Papawai —amendments suggested by them to the Premier's original Bill. I had better explain to the Committee about that —that those amendments and new clauses and resolutions arrived at by the meeting at Papawai were not done in accordance with the rules and regulations which were drawn up by them at the time they first constituted this hui. That is to say, these amendments and clauses were not drawn up before or in the presence of the Speaker and members of the Government of the hui which had been constituted by them for the direction and management of matters like these. But these were drawn up as embodying the views of a certain section of the hapus who were there who had decided to draw up amendments. But the other persons there, who had not anything to do with these arrangements or agreed to these amendments, are the people who are now here objecting to the proposals of the Bill. In support of what I said just now, that the desire of the Natives as a whole, generally speaking, is to support and secure the carrying-out of the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi, I say there is a Bill which the Committee is, no doubt, aware of before you for consideration, brought down by Mr. Henry Kaihau, and that Bill will show that the people who are under the Kauhanganui —that is, Mahuta's people—are desirous of carrying out the Treaty of Waitangi. 1 think that is all I need say about subsection (c) of clause 3of the petition. Now I will go to subsection (c) of clause 3of the petition, " That your petitioners fear that the borrowing-powers proposed in the Bill and the regulations for the disposal of lands may be used rather in the interests of the particular theories of settlement which may be advocated by the Government of the day than in the interests of the Native owners, who may find that their lands have been pledged for the repayment of moneys borrowed for surveying, roads,