PETITION OF THOMAS TELFORD (REPORT OF PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE ON), TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1882 Session I, I-01a

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1882. NEW ZEALAND.

PETITION OF THOMAS TELFORD (REPORT OF PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE ON), TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Report brought up on 20th July, 1882, and ordered to be printed.

No. 105. —Thomas Telfobd, Wellington. The petitioner states that in July, 1868, he was appointed an Inspector of Sheep for Wairarapa, and continued to hold the appointment until the 30th September, 1881, at which date, without any previous notice, he was informed that Mr. Sutton would relieve him of his duties. He is not aware of anything that could justify such harshness. He elected to take compensation for loss of office, being under the impression that his Provincial service would count. Ho states that he has received compensation for his services under the General Government, and now prays that compensation may be granted for his Provincial service. lam directed to report: Having inquired into and considered the case of the petitioner, the Committee are of opinion that he was rather harshly dealt with in being removed from office without any sufficient reason to justify such removal. The Committee cannot recommend that payment be made for loss of office for the time during which he was a Provincial officer, as it appears he continued in the Government service from 1875 to 1881, and thus virtually became a General Government officer, and entitled to the usual compensation authorized by law, which he received. The Committee desire to draw the attention of the Government to the organization of the Stock Branch of the Colonial Secretary's Department. It appears, from the evidence before the Committee, that this branch is not in a satisfactory state of organization; no permanent officer appears to be at the head of it; nominally, the Superintending Inspector is at the head, but practically lie is not so, as the office work is under the control of another officer, who appears to have no defined official position, and is not responsible to the Superintending Inspector, or even to the permanent Under-Secretary. The appointment of Sheep Inspectors also appears to have been made in two cases without the recommendation or knowledge of the Superintending Inspector, who could therefore have no opportunity to ascertain their fitness for the special work that they had to perform. Considering the important interests involved in properly administering the Sheep Department, which now includes the administration of the Babbit Nuisance Act, the Committee strongly recommend that it be placed forthwith under the control of one qualified officer, responsible to the Minister in charge, and that he be allowed such assistance as will enable him to conduct the business of the office when absent from Wellington. Thomas Kelly, Chairman.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Monday, 12th June, 1882. (Mr. T. Kelly, Chairman.) Benjamin Bayly, examined. The Chairman."] "What is your official designation ?—Superintending Inspector under the Sheep Act. 2. What are your duties ?—I have the general supervision of the department. 3. You have an office in Wellington ?—I have. 4. And is it from that office that all instructions go to the Inspectors ?—Not all, but as a rule they do emanate from that office. 5. Do all letters and telegrams to the Inspectors go through you ?—lf I am on the spot here they do, but there are very often matters of detail which are dealt with otherwise. 6. When you are absent who acts for you ?—Mr. Cooper generally signs documents for me in my absence. 7. When were you appointed?—On Ist November, 1881. 8. When you are in Wellington all telegrams and correspondence come through you?—Yes. 9. From whom do you receive instructions ?—The Colonial Secretary or the Under-Secretary, Mr. Cooper ; but there are many matters about which I receive no instructions at all. 10. Your duties are defined by the Sheep Act?—Yes, and I act on my own authority as provided by the Act. 11. When you receive instructions from the Colonial Secretary do you receive them directly from the Minister or through Mr. Cooper ?—Generally through Mr. Cooper. 12. To whom are you responsible ?—To the Colonial Secretary, but the Under-Secretary acts for him if he is not on the spot. In connection with matters which are under my own supervision I sign all correspondence directly, but if a letter requires the approval of the Minister I submit it to him. 13. Do you send that correspondence to the Minister himself?—l address it to the Colonial Secretary's office, " Stock Branch."

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14. And who receives letters addressed in that way ? —They go to Mr. Cooper, and he forwards them to the Colonial Secretary. Of course there are some matters which go before the Colonial Secretary directly. » 15. You have said that when you were absent telegrams and correspondence may be signed by Mr. Cooper ?—Yes, he signs them as Under-Secretary. 16. Has that been the practice ever since you were appointed ? —I cannot say that positively. There was a distinct order given some months ago to the effect that if I was absent and a telegram had to be sent at once it should be signed by Mr. Cooper. 17. Then all your duties, as defined in the Sheep Act, you carry out irrespective of any other person ?—Yes, but of course I submit everything of great importance to the Minister for his approval. 18. Can you give an instance of the kind of business you refer to the Colonial Secretary ? — Such matters as letting contracts for clearing land, or the appointment and dismissal of officers, &c, must necessarily go before the Colonial Secretary. If disease broke out iu a district and it was necessary to give instructions to an Inspector, I would deal with the matter myself at once ; but anything involving the payment of money, or the making of an appointment, would have to be submitted to the Minister. 19. Then any correspondence with officers with respect to their duties comes directly from yourself ?—Yes. 19a. And no other person has a right to act in these matters except with your authority ?—No ; but I make this reservation : that if anything occurred which required to be attended to immediately, Mr. Cooper would give the necessary instructions, but of course 1 would see the correspondence when I returned to Wellington. 20. Is Mr. Maunsell connected with the department now ? —Yes; he does the inside work, i.e., the clerical work of the department. 21. Is not all the work connected with the Sheep Department done in your office ?—lt is done in the Stock Branch of the Colonial Secretary's Department, and I am the head of that department. 22. Who is the head of the other branch of the department ? —Mr. Cooper, as Under-Secretary. I am under Mr. Cooper. 23. What are the functions of that branch which does the " inside work," as you term it? —To look after the correspondence ; to see that the proclamations with regard to stock are drawn up; to compile the returns, &c. 24. Do you take your instructions from Mr. Maunsell ? —No. 25. Do you give him instructions ? —I may say plainly that his position has not been actually defined as far as I know. He has no official designation, so far as I know. 26. Supposing your duties clashed, who would be looked upon as the superior officer?—lt is generally considered that I am responsible for superintending the operations which are being taken for the prevention of the spread of scab in sheep, and for seeing that the officers of the department are doing their work outside. When I have been in Wellington nobody has interfered with me in the performance of my duties. 27. You have no authority over those who do the inside work ? —I always considered that I had no control over the clerical work. 28. But it is necessary that you should know exactly what is going on ? —Yes ; but I am frequently away for six weeks or two months at a time. 29. And it is Mr. Maunsell's duty to attend to these matters in your absence ? —Yes, and lam frequently telegraphed to for information while I am away, and the advice I give is generally acted upon. 30. Could you telegraph to Mr. Maunsell instructing him to do anything? —Yes, I think so. If I said I wanted a certain thing done it would be done. 31. But suppose he refused to do what you wanted ?—Such a thing has never occurred yet. 32. Has it ever come to your knowledge that he declined to take any orders from you ?—No. We may have had differences of opinion with regard to the course to be pursued, but Mr. Maunsell has never declined to do what I required him to do. 33. As I understand it, there is a kind of " trinity " in this department: viz., yourself, Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Maunsell ? —Yes, I suppose that is the case. 34. Can the department be carried on by an officer who has only control over the outside work, and who has not the control of the inside work also ? —The positions of Mr. Maunsell and myself have never been thoroughly denned. 35. Then we are to understand that you have no control over the inside work ?■—Yes, I say that distinctly ; but, at the same time, I say that nothing is done without my advice having first been asked for. 36. You have control over the outside work ?—Yes. 37. But not over the inside work ? —No. 38. Then what position does Mr. Cooper hold with regard to the inside work ?—As Undersecretary, all correspondence must go through his office. 39. Does he perform any active duties, or is he simply the medium through which orders from the Colonial Secretary come to you ?—All correspondence as a rule is forwarded through the Colonial Secretary's office, and anything that appertains to my office comes to me from the Under-Secretary. 40. You send your correspondence to the Minister through Mr. Cooper: does he ever return your correspondence with remarks on it ? —Yes. He is the permanent head of the Colonial Secretary's Department. 41. But he only interferes with you when he is dealing with correspondence between you and the Colonial Secretary ? —Yes. 42. Does he by acting in that way assume the position of head of the Stock Branch of the Colonial Secretary's Department ? —Yes. 43. Then he is practically the head of the department? —-Yes. 44. Then, if Mr. Cooper is head of your department, what position does Mr. Maunsell hold?—I cannot say exactly, but he has held the same position that he does now for some years past. 45. Do you think that that sort of thing is likely to work well ?—I can only say that no disagreement has arisen as yet,

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46. You say you have had differences of opinion with Mr. Maunsell ?—Yes, in matters of detail; but he has never to my knowledge given an instruction contrary to my wish. 47. But differences of opinion are likely to arise ? —Yes. 48. Then what power has he to interfere with you in carrying out your duties ? —He has no power; he could only give his opinion. 49. What right has he to express his opinion ? —I do not know what right he has. 50. Is it necessary that you should agree with him in everything? —No. 51. You say he does the clerical work of your department? —Yes. 52. And he does so without being responsible to you ? —Yes. 53. Does he give you any instructions ? —No. 54. And you do not give him any ? —No ; but if I ask him to do anything he generally does it. Mr. Maunsell has charge of all the records of the office, and has had during the last two or three years. 55. Are you responsible for the safe keeping of the records ?—No ; I do not think I am. They belong to the Colonial Secretary's office. 56. Is there any person in your office who receives his instructions from you ?—Yes ; there are two clerks in the office, one of them being a permanent hand. I always give my instructions to those clerks. 57. Does Mr. Maunsell also give instructions to them ? —I think he does. 58. What would happen supposing that both Mr. Maunsell and yourself gave different instructions to the clerk?—l think my instructions would be carried out without any reference to Mr. Maunsell at all. 59. But suppose that both of you gave instructions to the clerk, which of you would he obey ?—■ I cannot say. A case of that kind has never yet occurred. 60. Who are the clerks to obey, in accordance with the instructions of the Colonial Secretary ?— Ido not think they have received any distinct instructions. They are in the office and they obey me. 61. But Mr. Maunsell does the inside work, and therefore the clerk must obey his orders ? —Yes; but no clash has yet occurred in the department in consequence of there being two heads : that is to say, Mr. Maunsell and myself. 62. Do you know anything of this case of Mr. Telford's ?—Very little. He was removed some time before I received my appointment. I have no personal knowledge of the case. 63. Mr. Sutton.~\ Does not Mr. Maunsell assume to be virtually the head of the Stock Branch of the department ? —I cannot say distinctly that he assumes to be the head of the Stock Branch of the Colonial Secretary's Office, but he has not the position to exercise the power of the head of the department. 64. Do you know whether he receives any portion of his salary from the Sheep Department?— Yes ; I think he gets £200 a year, or thereabouts, for the clerical work in connection with the Stock Branch of the office. 65. I understood you to say that, in regard to the appointment or removal of officers, you were always called upon to make a recommendation ? —Yes, that is so. 66. Is it not a fact that within the last six months, Mr. Maunsell lias recommended a person for appointment without your authority ?—lf he has done so it has been without my knowledge. 67. I am referring to the appointment of Mr. Fitzroy, as Sheep Inspector at Napier ? —That appointment was made while I was in Dunedin. 68. Is it a fact that Sheep Inspectors frequently receive orders from Wellington by telegram signed " D. Maunsell "? —Yes ; I believe that, in the case of calling for a return or anything of that sort, Mr. Maunsell may have signed a letter or a telegram, but I do not think he has ever signed any document which involved a large question. 69. Is it not a fact that in the Colonial Secretary's Office there is a sort of understanding that Mr. Maunsell, and not Mr. Cooper, directs the correspondence of the Sheep Department ?—At one time I think there was such an understanding. 70. And you say that Mr. Maunsell holds an undefined position at present ?—He conducts the clerical work of the Sheep Department, 71. Does not Mr. Maunsell pay official visits to Sheep Inspectors, and give them instructions with regard to their outside work ? —He has not done so to my knowledge since I was appointed. 72. I think something of that kind occurred in Napier in February last? —I do not know anything about that. 73. Are your positions sufficiently defined to make it his duty to report to you in such a case as that, or would he act independently of you altogether ? —I do not think he would act independently of me; and if he did so, he would be acting in contravention of my letter of appointment. 74. Do you not think that one man should,have the entire charge of all the work, both " inside " and " outside "? —I think that one man should have the entire control, provided that he could do the whole of the work. I may explain that lam often away from the office at Wellington for six weeks or two months at a time, and if I had to do all the office work it would accumulate to such an extent during my absence that I would not be able to keep it up. As well as the delay. 75. Do you not think it would be better if Mr. Maunsell were compelled to obey your orders? —■ I think it would be better if his position was clearly defined. I think there ought to be somebody in charge of the clerical work while lam away. I may say that there is a lot of the inside work that I am not acquainted with, but, of course, I could supervise that. 76. Supposing that in the present state of affairs there was a disagreement between yourself and Mr. Maunsell, who do you think would come off best? —There is an old axiom that answers that: namely, " Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." 77. Mr. Swanson.^ You say that if Mr. Maunsell has interfered and given instructions at Napier you are not aware of it ?—I do say so. 78. Is it possible for him to go cruising round Napier without your knowledge or permission ? —• I cannot say whether Mr. Maunsell was away from Wellington or not. I was away myself.

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79. Is it the proper thing that a clerk should be allowed to go away without your leave P-^-If the Colonial Secretary gave him permission to go, I could not do anything in the matter. •■ 80. Then the man might properly have leave of absence, while his interference would be wrong1?— Yes. 81. Mr. J. MeKemie.~\ You state that, since you have been appointed Superintending Inspector, an appointment has been made without your having been consulted ?—Yes. I was in the South Island when the appointment was made, and I was not aware of it until I returned to Wellington. 82. Do you know anything of Mr. Fitzroy's capabilities for the office ? —No. 83. Do you not think it would be better if you were called upon to report on the qualifications of a candidate before he wag appointed ? —Yes. 84. And suppose you had to report on this man's capability p—I should deal with him in the same manner that I should with any other man in the Service. - :•:■, 85. Do you think that Mr. Maunsell acted rightly in telling Mr. Telford to do some clearing work himself on land which he thought was infected ? —No, if such was the case, I think he was decidedly wrong in so doing. 86. Do you think that Mr. Telford was properly treated when he was refused permission to be allowed to employ men to clear certain land which he believed was infected ? —lt all depends on the necessity of the case. Of course it would not do to establish a precedent, because there are many districts in the colony which would be in the same position as the Wairarapa would have been, and they would have had to be given the same privileges that were given to the Wairarapa. I think the Inspector should have been instructed to examine the ground and report on the actual state of affairs. In this case I think, were it an urgent one, and had he acted on his own responsibility, then placed the matter strongly before the Government, I do not think he would have experienced much difficulty in getting back the money. 87. Mr. TV. O. J3uchananP\ Can you tell the Committee what course is pursued in regard to the appointment of Sheep and Rabbit Inspectors? —So far as Sheep inspectors' applications are concerned, they are filed, and when a vacancy occurs the most eligible man is- chosen and recommended by me to the Colonial Secretary. When a new man is appointed he remains on probation in Wellington and receives ten shillings a day until a suitable vacancy occurs, and then he is provided for. 88. You have said that in one case there was an exception made ?—There was an appointment made of which I had no knowledge. 89. What was the actual date of your appointment ?—The Ist November, 1881. 90. Do you know of any other appointment having been made in either the Sheep or the Rabbit Department in which you have not been consulted? —There was the case of Mr. Fitzroy, at Napier; and I believe there has been a Mr. Eobson appointed at Tauranga. 91. I understand that } rou had charge of the outdoor work of the department? —Yes. 92. Then why was Mr. Eobson appointed without your being referred to ?—I do not know; but he was so appointed. 93. Are you quite sure that no other appointments were made in a similar way ?-—There were none that I am aware of, but of course they might have been made without my knowledge ; I should, however, have heard of them afterwards. 94. Are we to understand that there are now men in the Service of whose existence you are not aware ? —I am aware that there are men in the Service of whom I know nothing. 95. Does the fact of your knowing nothing of them arise from this: that you have been so short a time in your present position that you have not been able to find out what their capabilities are ? —They are in parts of the colony which I have not had an opportunity of visiting. 96. Appointments are made in consequence of applications being made by persons who desire to obtain situations ? —Yes. 97. In the event of your having a complaint against one of your officers, have you the power to dismiss him as you would if he were employed by you privately ?—I have the power to suspend a man without reference to anybody, but I can do no more than that. It then remains for the Minister to determine, after inquiry, whether the man's offence is such as to warrant his dismissal. 98. You have told us that you do not take orders from Mr. Maunsell ? —Yes, I say that positively. 99. Are we to understand also that Mr. Maunsell has no power to give orders without reference to yourself with regard to the outside work ? —He has no right whatever to give orders in connection with the outside work without consulting me. 100. Have you had occasion to notice any departure from this?—-No, I have not. The only orders that have been given by Mr. Maunsell, to my knowledge, have reference to the clerical work. 101. Do you give him any orders ? —No, but whenever I ask him to do anything for me he does it. 102. To whom do you give instructions for such work to be done ? —I generally give instructions to the clerk in the office, Mr. Shaw. 103. Do you consider that you are in a position to give Mr. Shaw distinct orders without reference to anybody ? —Yes. 104. But you cannot give orders to Mr. Maunsell ? —No, I never instruct Mr. Maunsell. 105. In your absence who gives the orders that are necessary to be given ? —lf it were necessary to give an order while I was absent I believe Mr. Maunsell would write out the order and get Mr. Cooper to sign it. I may say that matters of detail merely are not generally submitted to the Minister. 106. Since you became Superintending Inspector have niany appointments of Sheep and Rabbit Inspectors been made ?—Yes, there have been several made down South. 107. Can you state the circumstances under which Mr. Campbell, of Balelutha, was appointed?— He is employed as an authorized agent under the Rabbit Act, but he 'has not been appointed. He, like many others, has simply been taken on as an assistant to the Inspector, who can get rid of him at a day's notice. Men of that sort are paid at so much per day, and are not permanently appointed by the Government at all.

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108. Have you had an opportunity of judging of the fitness of the persons who were appointed without your knowledge ? —As a general rule I have known the qualifications of the men who have been appointed. 109. Do you know whether Mr. Maunsell's position is different now to what it was before you were appointed ? —Tes, I believe it is. 110. Have you any knowledge of the state of the Wairarapa District, as far as scab was concerned, at the date of Mr. Telford's resignation ?—Tes ; the returns show me what it was. 111. Can you tell us what the state was then compared with what it is now ? —Tes. The returns show that on the last day of September the number of sheep on the infected list was considerably over 100,000, which meant about twenty flocks, and now there are only about eight flocks, or about 22,000 sheep infected. 112. What is your opinion respecting the destruction of sheep by an Inspector on his own responsibility, wild sheep in bush districts?—Some men would do the work at once, without referring to the Government, and risk getting the money back again. There are some men, however, who would not run any risk. I think I should do the work myself if I were an Inspector, and take my chance of getting the money back from the Government, if I expended any. 113. Then we are to understand that, in practice, the Government have recognized the fact that they are responsible for the destruction of diseased sheep on Crown lands ?—No, I cannot say that. The question is a vexed one at the present time. Sheep have never been killed at the expense ef the Government since I have been Superintending Inspector; but some eighteen months or two years ago some Maori sheep were killed on the Waimate Plains District, and the owners were paid for them. 114. Mr. J. McKenzieJ] Is it not a fact that instructions are issued to the Inspectors that they are not to spend money without authority ? —Yes ; distinctly I say that. 115. "What knowledge has Mr. Maunsell got of scab ? —I do not know that he has any. 116. Mr. Sutton.] You are also in charge of the Babbit Department?—Tes. 117. Is there a special staff of officers in connection with that department ?•—No. All Inspectors of Babbits are Inspectors of Sheep as well. 118. Do you know anything of a Mr. Russell, who is employed as a Rabbit Inspector in Hawke's Bay ?—No, I do not know him. 119. How is it that all the Inspectors are instructed by circular to send in their reports to the Colonial Secretary instead of to yourself ?—Because the Sheep Department is a branch of the Colonial Secretary's Office. 120. Have you anything to do with arranging the salaries of the officers of the department?— Tes, I can recommend the rate of pay at which they shall begin, and can recommend them for an increase afterwards. The pay-sheets, however, do not go through my hands. 121. In the matter of granting free railway passes, would you be consulted?—No free passes have been granted so far as I know. We have to pay our railway fares out of our own pockets, and get the money back afterwards. 122. Mr. W. G. Buchanan .] Have you an Inspector named MeShane?—Tes. 123. Can you say whether the appointment of Mr. Campbell was made at his instance ? —Tes. Mr. McShane asked me for authority to employ Campbell. 124. Have you had occasion to send any remonstrances to McShane lately ? —No. 125. Have you not had occasion to complain that he had not done certain things that he ought to have done ? —1 wrote to him stating that he had been a number of days in Balclutha without showing enough work for his time. 126. And yet he has the; power to employ one or more assistants ? —Tes, subject to approval. 127. The Chairman!] With reference to appointments you say the method pursued has been to keep a list of the applicants, and that from that list the most eligible have been appointed as vacancies occurred. Were the names of Mtzroy and itobson on that list ?—I cannot say. 128. Does the list of those who are selected remain with you?—l should have said that the applications are filed by themselves as they come in, but there is really no list kept. As vacancies occur the original applications are referred to, and the most efficient men are selected. 129. Who goes over the applications and makes the selection ?—I do. 130. But it appears that appointments have been made without your knowledge?—Tes. 131. And you are not in official communication with these officers?—Their communications, in the shape of diaries, &c, come through the office. I would get my first knowledge of their existence from the Gazette. 132. Then you are not responsible for the efficiency of the Inspectors ?—Tes, I consider myself responsible for the efficiency of any Inspector I may come into contact with. 133. How did you hear of Mr. liobson's appointment ? —I saw the notice of the appointment in the Gazette. 134. How long had he been appointed before you heard of it? —I cannot say. 135. Have you any knowledge of the facts connected with the appointment of the other man ?— I saw it gazetted. : 136. Who recommended this man for appointment?—l do not know. 137. Do you know whether these men are fitted for their work ? —I cannot say whether they are fitted or not. I have no knowledge of them, but I have heard that Mr. Fitzroy is a very smart man. 138. Mr. J. Green.] Do you consider yourself Chief Inspector or Superintending Inspector ?—I am Superintending Inspector. 139. Do you regard your position as Superintending Inspector as different from what it would be if you were Chief Inspector ? —Tes, most decidedly. 140. If you were a Chief Inspector you would be really responsible for the whole of the work of a district? —There are several Chief Inspectors, and as Superintending Inspector I am at the head of them all. 141. Mr. Swanson.] I suppose your business is to wage war against the scab disease ?—Tes. 142. And you are the general commanding the army to stamp out this disease? —Yes.

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143. Then how is the disease to be put down, and how are you to be held responsible for it, unless you have the power to appoint efficient officers for the proper carrying out of your duties ?—lt would be decidedly better if the Superintending Inspector had the power to nominate his own officers. 144. Are you not crippled now, owing to the want of that power ? —So far as I have gone yet I must say that I have experienced no such difficulty as that which has been referred to. 145. Have you had to remove any of the Inspectors ? —Yes, in one or two instances. 146. But if you had the power of nominating the Inspectors do you not think you would make just as good a selection as is made now ?—Yes, I think better men would be had by one man only recommending appointments. 147. What is the best means of getting rid of scab ?—By seeing that the provisions of the Act are properly carried out by competent men. 148. Are you a good judge of these matters ? —Yes. 149. Are Mr. Maunsell and Mr. Cooper capable men? —I do not know what their qualifications are. Mr. Cooper has had experience in station work and with stock. 150. You have had to remove some of your men ?—Yes, I had to remove some who were appointed before I joined the service in my present capacity. 151. If you had appointed them yourself would you have had to dismiss them ? —Did they neglect their duty I should treat all alike, whether I recommended the appointments or not. 152. I wish to ascertain what is the best means of getting rid of this disease of scab ? —The law now in existence will ultimately result in getting rid of it. 153. Would you not prefer to have the appointment of your officers ? —-Yes, if I am to be held responsible for the manner in which they perform their duties. At present lam responsible for all officers, whether appointed by myself or not. 154. The Oh airman. ~\ Were you aware of a vacancy in the department when the two Inspectors were appointed ? —I was aware that there was a vacancy at Napier. 155. Supposing that it had been left to you to make these appointments, would you have appointed the gentlemen who have been appointed ? —I cannot say. 155a. Do you know these gentlemen, or what their qualifications are ? —No. 156. Then is it likely that you would have appointed them ? —Not without seeing them. 157. At the time these appointments were made, were there any applications in the office from persons who were competent to fill the vacancies properly ?—I presume there were applications in the office. 158. Mr. J. Buchanan.'] Is Mr. Eobson a Sheep or a Eabbit Inspector ?—He is a Sheep Inspector at Tauranga.

Friday, IGth June, 1882. Thomas Telfoed, examined. 159. The Chairman*,"] You are the petitioner in this case ? — Yes. 160. You consider that you have been removed from the Civil Service without sufficient cause ? —I was removed very suddenly. There had never been any complaint made against me, and I never received any reprimand either from the Provincial Secretary or from the Colonial Secretary's Office. I have been thirteen years in the Service, and I have had substantial marks of recognition from both the General and Provincial Governments. 161. Was there not a complaint of remissness on your part in the conduct of the Sheep Inspector's Department ? —No. 162. You state in your petition that you have just cause to complain that the Government were acting as they did in consequence of the misrepresentations of Mr. Maunsell. What was the nature of those misrepresentations ?— I do not know exactly ; but I do know that he wrote a minute to the effect that the Sheep Inspector's book was kept so badly that it had to be written up again. On several occasions he objected to my work, though I told him I would do anything I was ordered in writing to do. 163. Do you say he was interfering with your duties as Sheep Inspector ? —Yes, he was dictating to us. 164. Your duties as Sheep Inspector were defined by law ? —Yes. 165. And you say that Mr. Maunsell was interfering with your duties ? —Yes, and I declined to submit to any verbal instructions from him. 166. Can you give an instance of his interference ?—Yes ; one of the sections of the Act empowers the Inspector, when he considers it necessary, to herd and yard infected flocks. Mr. Maunsell, on one occasion, sent to me asking whether I had attended to this rule in a certain case, and I had to tell him that it was absolutely impossible to do so in that part of the country. 167. Then, you mean the Committee to understand that in these matters, where the law allows you to act on your own discretion, Mr. Maunsell tried to influence your judgment? —Ye3. I may perhaps have expressed myself rather warmly against him at times when I was not satisfied with his behaviour to me. 168. Through whom did you receive instructions from the Government? —I received instructions from the Colonial Secretary's Office, the letters being usually signed by Mr. Maunsell. 169. And you carried out the instructions you got from the G-overnment through Mr. Maunsell?— Yes. 170. And any other communications that you received from Mr. Maunsell, which appeared not to have the recognition of the Government, you considered to be an interference with your duty?— Yes. 171. Have you any of the telegrams that you have spoken of ? —I do not know, though I may have some of them. 172. What makes you think that the G-overnment acted as they did in consequence of Mr. Maunsell's action ? —I had never been reprimanded either by the General or the Provincial Government, but the Government intimated that it was desirable to make a change in the Sheep Department, and that they had appointed Mr. Sutton to take my place. I was informed that I would receive the usual com-

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pensation for loss of office, and it was left to Mr. Sutton and myself to determine when he should take over the district from me. 173. You say you received instructions from the Government. Is there not a Sheep Inspector who is over all the others ? —There was not at that time. 174. When did this circumstance that you complain of happen ?—On 4th March, 1881, before the Sheep Inspector was appointed. I may say that I was offered the alternative of being transferred to some other place instead of taking compensation. 175. Then, you accepted the compensation and retired from the Service, rather than remove from Wellington ? —Yes, I did ultimately ; but I first applied for time to consider the matter, and I got that time, but, as I have said, I decided upon taking the compensation. 176. And now you complain that the compensation was less than you expected to get ? —Yes ; I understood from Mr. Hall that I had done good work, and that he would be very glad to do all he could for me. He told me that he had no doubt I should receive full compensation for my provincial services. If it had not been for that I should have hesitated before accepting compensation from the General Government. I may say that I have been almost ruined in consequence of not getting tha full amount I claimed. 177. You say there was no complaint made against you by the Government, and that the settlers were satisfied with you? —I can only say that I have received substantial marks of approval from both. [Witness here produced a gold watch and chain, which bore an inscription showing that the articles had been presented to him by the sheepovvners of the district in which he had worked.] When I left the district it was comparatively clean, but when I went back at the request of the inhabitants I had to clean a lot of flocks. I suggested to the Government that they should employ men to scour the bush in the neighbourhood and kill the diseased sheep, but they declined to act as I suggested. The consequence was that there was an outbreak of scab. 178. Had you any authority to employ these men yourself ?—No. 179. Do you attribute the increase of scab in the district to the fact of the Government declining to act on your suggestion ?—I have no doubt that that was the cause. 180. Did you put the new Sheep Act into operation? —Yes; and I insisted upon all persons signing the necessary certificates to show that there had been no scab in the locality for past. 181. Mr. J. McKenzie.~\ You were stationed in the same district all the time you held the office ? —Yes. ] 82. When you went back to the district you found scab there, and it is there yet ?—Yes ; and it is worse than ever it was. 183. You complied with all the instructions which you got from the Government while you were there ? —-Yes, and 1 was at all times ready to assist sheepowners. 184. Is it difficult to keep sheep clean in a country like that? —Yes, very. 185. Hon. Mr. Dick.~\ When the notice was handed to you, requiring either that you should remove to some other place or accept compensation, was anything said about your not giving satisfaction. —No. 186. Do you think that the Government have no right to change their Inspectors from one place to another when they think proper ?—Certainly they have that right, but the officers should have sufficient notice, and in this case I had not even an hour's notice. 187. You were not consulted as to whether you would remain in the place or not ?—-No. 188. Were you not allowed six months to consider the matter ?—Yes, and I was. asked to act as usual until the matter was finally decided in October. 189. Your complaint is that you were hurried, and that you had no notice of what was intended to be done ?—Yes. 190. Do you think the Government should consult the Sheep Inspectors before deciding whether they should be removed or not ?—No. I may say that, in reply to a deputation which waited on him, Mr. Hall said that I would be removed for the public good, but that I would get an appointment elsewhere. 191. What was the object of the deputation that waited on Mr. Hall ? —The object was to point out that there was a serious spread of scab in my district. 192. Did not that indicate that there was some dissatisfaction with your control of the district ?— No, I think not. 193. Did the deputation say that they objected to your removal ?—I do not know what they said. I do not know whether they objected or not.

Fbidat, 23rd June, 1882. Danieii Maunsell, examined. 194. The Chairman'] What office do you hold? — I am Private Secretary to the Minister1 administering the Live Stock Acts, and Private Secretary to the Premier. 195. Who is the Minister who administers the Live Stock Acts ? —The Colonial Secretary. 196. And who is the head of the department ? —The Colonial Secretary. The ITnder-Seeretary, Mr. GK S. Cooper, is the permanent head. 197. I want to know who is- the practical head of the department ?—Mr. Cooper, as Undersecretary. 198. He is not the Chief Inspector of Sheep ?—No. 199. Then, who is the permanent head of the Sheep Department ?—Mr. Cooper. 200. In that case he is Chief Inspector of Scab ?—No ; but since the Ist November last a Superintending Inspector. The Chief Inspector of Sheep for Marlborough, Mr. B. P. Bayly, has been appointed to carry out the provisions of the Sheep and Rabbit Acts. 201. Who is his superior officer ?—The Minister is the political chief, and Mr. Cooper the permanent head.

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202. Do you know the facts of this case of the petitioner, Thomas Telford ? [The petition was here read.] —Yes. 203. You will observe that the petitioner says you have misrepresented his case to the Colonial Secretary ?—The very reverse is the case. I have done everything I could for the petitioner. 204. How was the department administered : who was the medium of conveying instructions from the Minister to the Inspectors ? —I was, since the Act of IS7B was passed up to the appointment of Mr. Bayly. 205. And what does the Superintending Sheep Inspector do ?—He does all the outdoor work; lie sees that the Inspectors do their work in the field, &c. 206. Do you receive instructions from the Superintending Inspector?—No; I receive instructions from nobody but the Minister. 207. Then the permanent head of the department, Mr. Cooper, does not give you instructions?— No; excepting for the Minister. He signs all letters giving instructions, but requests for information and ordinary papers are signed by me as Private Secretary. All papers requiring instructions are submitted by me to the Minister for his decision. 208. After you receive instructions from the Minister do you communicate directly with the Inspectors, without referring to any other authority ? —'Yes, if I consider it necessary ; or I do so if I am instructed by the Minister. 209. But not otherwise ?—I do so likewise if lam instructed by Mr. Cooper, who gets his instructions from the Minister's minutes on the papers. 210. Then there are two authorities, you being one and Mr. Cooper the other? —No; Mr. Cooper is my superior officer. 211. Are we to understand that you receive your instructions from Mr. Cooper or from the Minister? —From both. 212. But I want to know who your superior permanent officer is ? —Mr. Cooper. 213. And you take your instructions from him ?—Yes. 214. When an order is given to the Sheep Inspectors to do certain things, is that order given by Mr. Cooper? —Yes; all orders are given by Mr. Cooper, who signs all official documents. I take all papers to the Minister, who then minutes them ; and letters are signed by Mr. Cooper. 215. What are the functions of the Superintending Inspector ? —To see that the Sheep Inspectors do their work in the field. 216. Who instructs the Superintending Inspector ?—-He is responsible to the Minister. 217. He receives instructions from Mr. Cooper ? —Yes, if the Minister so directs. 218. And any instructions which it may be necessary to give to an Inspector by the Minister are given through Mr. Cooper ? —Yes. 219. Then anything you may have had to say to an Inspector has been said by the order of Mr. Cooper ? —Yes, by his order or by that of the Minister. 220. Would you communicate with an Inspector without referring to Mr. Cooper ? —Not on any new matter. He is supposed to see everything I write to the Inspectors of Sheep. 221. Supposing the Minister wants to give instructions to the Inspectors? —Then Mr. Cooper writes, but if it is very important and urgent, I do it myself at once, generally by telegraph. 222. And how does Mr. Cooper get to know of it ?—By seeing the papers either before or afterwards. 223. So then the Minister has the means of obtaining information once through you and once through Mr. Cooper? —Yes. 224. Are you acquainted with the facts of Telford's case ?—Yes, quite intimately. 225. Why was the order given for his removal ?—The Minister considered it necessary to make a change in Mr. Telford's district. 226. For what purpose ? —I did not ask him, and do not know. 227. What were you instructed by the Minister to do in his case ?—I was not instructed. I prepared the necessary letters to be signed by the Minister or by Mr. Cooper, carrying out the Minister's orders. 228. Then how was it that he was removed ? —Because the Minister considered it necessary to make a change. 229. Was this change made through you or Mr. Cooper ? —By a letter signed by the Minister. 230. Was it sent directly by the Minister ?—lt was a letter given by the Minister to Mr. Sutton, to deliver to Mr. Telford. 231. How was this letter sent; did the Minister instruct you to send it, or did he instruct Mr. Cooper to send it ? —I do not exactly recollect at this moment. 232. What was the reason given for Mr. Telford's removal ? —Removals are considered matters of policy, and I am not competent to express any opinion as to why it was done. 233. We do not require your opinion. We want to know why he was removed ? —I was instructed by the Minister that the change should take place. 231. Did you know the reasons that actuated the Minister in removing Mr. Telford ? —No. 235. Was any complaint ever made as to the manner in which he conducted his business ?—No. 236. Is it usual in this department to remove officers from one place to another ?—Yes. 237. And to remove them from the Service altogether ? —No, and Telford was not removed from the Service. He was given the option of going to another subdivision at the same rate of pay, and if he had gone the expenses of his removal would have been paid. It was entirely his own fault that he left the Service. 238. Then he had the alternative offered him of taking a similar appointment in another district ? —Yes. 239. And he could have taken that other appointment if he had liked ? —Yes, it was kept open for him for five months. 240. Mr. Button.'] Is it a fact that Mr. Cooper has the management of the Sheep Department ? —Yes.

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241. Is it uot a fact that Inspectors of Sheep are instructed to address all their correspondence to yourself? —No, they are instructed to address their communications to the Colonial Secretary, Stock Branch, Wellington. 242. There are several telegrams which have been put in by the petitioner, and which are signed "D. Maunsell." Did Mr. Cooper know anything about them? —I signed those telegrams as Private Secretary to the Minister. Mr. Cooper is the official head of the Sheep Department, and if the Minister has any instructions to give, Mr. Cooper signs the letters; but if only information is required I sign, as a rule. 243. What would be the course pursued in the office with regard to Telford's removal: how would that bo brought about ? —A letter would bo written to Telford informing him that he was to be removed, and that letter would be signed either by the Minister or the Under-Secretary. 244. How would the Minister know that a change was necessary : has he any practical knowledge of the subject ? —He would act on information which he received himself from the papers which are put before him from time to time : viz., from Inspectors' diaries, correspondence, &c. 245. Do you wish the Committee to understand that the Minister in charge of the department would, of his own free will, order the removal of an Inspector ? —Yes. 246. Without having received any information from anybody ?—The Minister would judge from the papers placed before him whether there was necessity for a change. 247. What papers would there be in this case ? —There are no papers making charges against Mr. Telford, but there are all papers relating to the working of the Act in Mr. Telford's subdivision. 248. Then, upon what would the Minister act ? —He would act on his own opinion, formed from a perusal of the papers relating to the subdivision. 249. But how would he arrive at his opinion ?■ —It is not for me to say how he arrives at it. 250. But why was the change made in regard to Telford ? —I do not know. 251. Are there any documents in the office which would explain why the Minister took this matter into his consideration at all ? —The whole of the correspondence is in the office. 252. But are there any documents in the office which would show how it came about that the Minister took action in this particular case ? —I presume the action was taken by the Minister in consequence of what took place at certain meetings in the Wairarapa District. 253. Mr. W. O. Buchanan.^ Were there any public meetings held in the Wairarapa before Telford was communicated with through Mr. Sutton ? —There were meetings about that time. 254. Did you know of any public agitation in respect of sheep matters in the Wairarapa? —Yes, the most influential meeting that ever was held on this subject in the Wairarapa took place about that time. 255. Do you remember whether Mr. Telford was communicated with before the meeting or afterwards ? —I cannot say now, but I think it was after the meeting. 256. Mr. $utton.~\ Did anything take place at the meeting you have referred to in respect of Mr. Telford's position ; in other words, were any complaints made against him ? —No, but the meeting passed some strong resolutions urging the Government to take other and more stringent means to eradicate scab from the Wairarapa. 257. Mr. Telford has told the Committee that no complaints were made against him. Is that the fact ?—Yes. 258. What is generally done when you want to fill up a vacancy in the Sheep Department ?—All recommendations for appointments are made by the Superintending Inspector to the Minister. 259. How long has that been the case ? —Since November last year. 260. Then, the Superintending Inspector has something to do with the management of the office ? ■ —That is not office work. He has only to say whether the candidates for appointments are qualified to fill the offices they seek. 261. Mr. J. McKenzie.~] Was the Superintending Inspector consulted in the case of Mr. Telford ? —No, he was not appointed at that time. 262. What officer does the Minister consult in cases of this sort before taking action ? —Since the Ist January, 1879, I have had to see the Inspectors and ascertain the requirements of the various districts ; and before taking action the Minister asks me whether I have any information to give him. 263. Do you know anything of scab ? —Yes. I have had some experience both in Canterbury and Wairarapa. 264. Did you hold any appointment in Canterbury?—No, I was simply a settler there, and had just come out from Home. 265. Do you think a man could learn sufficient in ten days to enable him to be an Inspector of scab? —No, certainly not. 266. Mr. J. OreenP\ I understand that no complaints came from the Wairarapa in regard to Inspector Telford, and yet that he is removed, and also that in the notice of his removal there is an intimation to the effect that if ho is not willing to be removed he may take a retiring allowance. Is there not in that arrangement something which leaves the impression that it was hardly just to remove Mr. Telford ; or is it the rule when you remove an officer to offer him the alternative of leaving the service ?—Yes, it is always the rule to do so. The policy for carrying out the Act when it came into force in 1879 was that the Sheep Inspectors should not remain in a district for too long a time. Mr. Telford was also a property-owner in his district. 267. How long are the Sheep Inspectors supposed to remain in one place ? —So long as their services are considered advantageous to the sheepowners. 268. How long had Mr. Telford been in his district ? —He was Inspector at G-reytown for ten years for the southern portion of the Wairarapa. In 1878 he applied to the Minister of Lands, who had the direction of the working of the Sheep Department at that time, for permission to remove to Tenui, where he had a small property of some two thousand or three thousand acres. When Parliament passed the Sheep Act of 1878, the administration of the department was transferred to the Colonial Secretary, and that gentleman allowed Mr. Telford to remove to Tenui, and since then he has resided on his own property there. 269. And, of course, that removal gave him a new district ? —Yes, practically. 2—l. IA.

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270. You have said that Inspectors were removed when it was considered necessary to remove them in the interests of the settlers. If no complaint came to the department against Telford, and he had carried out all the wishes of the department as they had been communicated to him, what led you to believe that it would be in the interests of the settlers that he should be removed? —Nothing led me to believe that. It was the Colonial Secretary who acted. 271. Had any resolutions been passed reflecting on the Inspector? —The settlers complained that scab was not eradicated in the Wairarapa, and there was a general feeling of dissatisfaction, though nobody was blamed individually. 272. Hon. 3£r. Dic7e.~\ You say there was a public meeting at Wairarapa in reference to the spread of scab. Mr. Telford was at that time Inspector there, was he not? —Yes. 273. And what was the result of the public meeting?—The persons who got up the meeting were informed that the Government had taken measures. 274. Do you know whether a deputation came from the Wairarapa to see the Government on the subject? —Yes, I was present at the meeting between the deputation and the Minister. That deputation was the result of the meeting which was held at the Wairarapa. The deputation came to complain that scab was not eradicated in the Wairarapa, and brought down with them the resolutions passed at the meeting. 275. Was the question of Mr. Telford's fitness for his office talked about ? —lt was not; but there was a complaint made that the Act of 1878 had been so long in force and yet scab had not been eradicated, and I presume that the G-overnment then thought it would be advisable that a change should take place. 276. With reference to the office work, what position do you hold in the office?—l am Private Secretary to the member of the Government who administers the Act. 277. And he gives you directions when you hand him papers? —Yes. 278. Do you sign all the correspondence, or does the ITnder-Secretary do so? —If the Minister wants information I sign the papers, but if directions or instructions are to be given the Under-Secre-tary signs. Mr. Cooper always signs directions except when I receive instructions from the Minister to do so. 279. Do you hand the papers to Mr. Cooper?—He sees all the papers that are connected with the details of the department. 280. Have you a set of letter-books for the Stock Branch ? —No, the letters are all copied into the Colonial Secretary's books. 281. Then, any letters that you or Mr. Cooper may sign are copied into the Colonial Secretary's books ? —Yes. 282. Mr. Bayly was appointed Superintending Inspector a few months ago ? —He was. 283. You seem to think that his department is separate from yours? —No, I understand that Mr. Bayly has the outdoor work of the Stock Branch of the Colonial Secretary's Office, which is to see that the Inspectors do their work properly, to recommend appointments and removals, &c. 284. You think, then, that Mr Bayly is in no way connected with you ?— I consider he is not. 285. Nor with Mr. Cooper?—Mr. Cooper could answer that question better himself. 28G. Do your duties clash in any way ? —No. 287. If Mr. Bayly considers it necessary to recommend certain alterations in reference to the Inspectors, have you anything to do with it ? —Nothing at all; that is what we call " outdoor work." 288. Suppose Mr. Bayly has to prepare a report for the Government or the House, have you anything to do with that report ? —Nothing whatever. 289. Then your idea is that Mr. Bayly occupies an entirely separate position ? —Yes; he has to see that the Sheep and Rabbit Acts are efficiently carried out. 290. And he can give you no instructions ? —I should take none from him. I should take instructions from the Minister and Mr. Cooper only. 291. Mr. W. C. Buchanan^ Can you make any statement to show the state of the scab disease in the Wairarapa from 1878 up to ihe time when Mr. Telford was removed? — The returns can all be seen at the office, but I can say that there was a great decrease in the number of scabby sheep in the Wairarapa between 1878 and 1881. 292. You mean while Mr. Telford was in charge of the district ? —Scab was diminishing, but it was breaking out in fresh places when he was removed. 293. Can you explain to us Mr. Telford's statement that, in the district to which he was transferred in 1878, the sheep were all supposed to be clean in 1881?—I cannot say anything about the matter without first looking up the returns. 294. Mr. J. Green.'] Did Mr. Telford ever ask permission to be allowed to destroy some sheep in a certain portion of bush land, on the ground, that those sheep were scabby, and that the disease was likely to spead? —He requested the Government to employ a man to take wild sheep off Crown lands. 295. And did he warn the Government that, if these sheep were not destroyed, there was a probability of the disease spreading?—Yes. 296. Then, if Mr. Telford gave, that advice to the Government, and they declined to accept it, the consequence being that the disease spread, can Mr. Telford be blamed ? —Yes ; because he did not think it necessary to enforce the Act to prevent sheep from straying. 297. But if the sheep were on Crown lands, and he did not know the owner, how could he enforce the Act? —The thirtieth section of tlie Act gives him power to compel the owners of sheep, whose sheep stray on Crown lands, to destroy them. 298. Could he have done more than he did in warning the Government, if he were not aware of the names of the owners of the sheep ? —The matter was dealt with by the Minister, and Mr. Telford was informed that it would be impolitic to remove sheep at the public cost from the Crown lands so long as the property of the neighbouring owners was not fenced. It was offering a premium to settlers to allow their sheep to Ktrny. 299. But if Mr. Telford could not ascertain the names of the owners of these sheep ? —He did not give notice to the neighbouring owners whose land was unfenced that they should keep their sheep on their own properties.

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300. Mr. Sutton.] What are the duties of the office for which Mr. Bayly is not responsible: does the office appoint and remove Inspectors?—The Minister does that on the recommendation of the Superintending Inspector, approved by the Governor. Office work consists of preparing returns and attending to departmental details. 301. Do you not think that the Chief Inspector would be the best man to do that work? —One man could not do the whole of the work. It is all done through the Under-Secretary. The Superintending Inspector has often to be absent for weeks, and if he had to attend to office detail the work would come to a standstill. 302. How many men are employed by the department in doing that work ? —There is one clerk at Christchurch, and another in Marlborough, and I do it here. 303. Is it not a fact that at the present time there are as many complaints about scab as there ever were in the Wairarapa, and that the settlers consider that scab is on the increase in that district ? —The Wairarapa settlers say so, but they will not put their complaints in writing. They will not inform against each other. 304. Mr. J. M~cKenzie.] The Inspectors are governed to a certain extent by the Orders in Council ? —Yes. 305. Mr. J. Green!] Would it harmonize with the Order in Council if the Inspectors employed somebody to kill diseased sheep without communicating with the department ? —Yes, provided that it could be done without expense to the public. In Marlborough the settlers clubbed together and killed seven hundred diseased sheep at their own expense. 306. The Chairman.] Mr. Telford, in his evidence, says that one reason why the scab spread in the bush he referred to was that the scabby sheep were long-tailed, and that though he asked the Government to give him permission and assistance to kill these sheep they would not do so. They would not allow him to employ men to destroy the sheep ? —Yes, but not at the public expense. 307. He states that the scab originated in this district in consequence of the Government declining to employ two men to destroy the sheep he had complained of? —All I can say is that Mr. Telford went over this very land to look for scabby sheep, and when he came back he reported that he could not find any. 308. From whom did the communication to Mr. Telford about his removal come? —From the Under-Secretary. 309. Had you any conversation with the Minister about the matter ?—I do not think I had. 310. Was there any minute put upon it ? —Yes ;by the Minister. 311. After your conversation with him, or before? —At the time, I believe. 312. Who was the Minister at the time? —Mr. Hall. I may say that any cause for the removal would be minuted on the papers. 313. Then we are to assume that Mr. Hall, who was at that time in charge of the Sheep Department, was in effect Chief Inspector of sheep ?—Yes. 314. And that he acted on his own motion in that capacity to deal with this special case ? —Yes.

Fbiday, July 14th, 1882. Mr. G. S. Cooper, Under-Secretary, examined. 315. The Chairman.'] You. are Under-Secretary in the Colonial Secretary's Department? —1 am. 316. What position do you hold in the Sheep Department ? —lt is a branch of the Colonial Secretary's Department, and I do not actively conduct the business of it myself. Mr. Maunsell is in charge of tho Live Stock Acts, and he has been the medium of communication between the officers of the department and the Government. As a rule Ido not deal with papers relating to sheep and rabbits until they have been before the Minister. I, as Under-Secretary, am simply the medium of communication between all sub-departments and the Government. 317. And you are the mouthpiece of the Minister in giving instructions ? —Yes. I may say that when the Sheep Department was first initiated Sir George Whitmore was Colonial Secretary ; and, as soon as the session was over in 1878, he told me that he had undertaken the administration of the Sheep Act. He said that putting the machinery in motion would involve a great deal of work which he did not wish to put on my shoulders, and that he had determined to appoint his Private Secretary, Mr. Maunsell, to do it. He said also that Mr. Maunsell would be under me and would relieve me of much of the work. Until lately Mr. Maunsell has done all the work, but since Mr. Bayly was appointed Superintending Inspector he does all the outdoor work, and Mr. Maunsell the indoor. 318. Who do you consider the permanent head of the department?' —I consider tliat I occupy that position. Mr. Bayly is responsible for the Inspectors doing their work. The indoor work is done by Mr. Maunsell, under me, and by the Minister's direction. 319. Then Mr. Maunsell takes his instructions from you? —He generally takes his instructions from the Minister directly, but sometimes he takes them from me. 320. I understand that the permanent head of a department is a person who gives instructions to all his subordinates ? —Yes, that is so. 321. And I understand also, that it is not the custom for a Minister to communicate instructions to his subordinates without first referring to the permanent head of the department ?—Yes, that is the usual rule. 322. Now with regard to the two sub-heads, Mr. Maunsell and Mr. Bayly, which is the superior officer? —I should say that Mr. Bayly was. He is the Superintending Inspector, and has control over the whole of the officers connected with the Sheep Department in the colony. Mr. Maunsell's position is that of a clerk in my office, charged with the conduct of the correspondence. 323. Is Mr. Bayly, as Superintending Inspector, in a position to give instructions to Mr. Maunsell, with any anticipation of their being attended to ? —-I can hardly say, because I really do no_t know. I should think Mr. Maunsell would not be at all likely to bring such a point to an issue. 324. Has Mr. Maunsell been informed that he is subordinate to Mr. Bayly ? —I do not know. I am not acquainted with what may have been the understanding between Mr. Maunsell and the Minister, and the relative positions of Mr. Maunsell and Mr. Bayly have not been defined to me.

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325. So then there are two different departments, the "inside" and the "outside," which are managed by two different heads, namely, Mr. Bayly and Mr. Maunsell ? —Tes. 326. How is Mr. Maunsell paid? —He receives £250 a year from the Sheep Department. 327. Does he get any other salary ? —Tes, he receives £200 a year for his services as Private Secretary to the Minister in charge of the Upper House. 328. During the recess he is at the head of the Sheep Department so far as you are concerned ?— Tes. 329. Have you made any recommendations to the Minister with regard to the necessity of defining properly the functions of Mr. Bayly and Mr. Maunsell ?—No. Mr. Maunsell was appointed by the Minister without my being consulted, and I did not interfere. I was not asked to give any expression, of opinion with regard to the appointment of either. 380. Tou are of opinion that some reform is necessary in the department, and that the duties of these two officers should be defined properly ?—Tes, I think that is necessary. 33L. When correspondence is addressed to the Stock Branch, who receives it?—lt is received, opened, and recorded by my record clerk, who then sends it on to Mr. Maunsell. 332. Are the letters sent to you ? —No, as a rule they go direct from Mr. Maunsell to the Minister. The Minister gives his instructions regarding it, and then it is referred to me if necessary. Ido not generally see the correspondence until the Minister has done with it. I merely carry out the instructions of the Minister. 333. Mr. J. McKenzie~\ Do you know anything of this case of Telf ord's ? —Nothing at all. 334. Mr. Swanson.] Who looks after the work of the Sheep Department when Mr. Maunsell is earning his bonus of £200 a year for acting as Private Secretary to the Premier? —Mr. Maunsell himself does the greater part of it. In the middle of winter, while Parliament is sitting, there is not a great deal of work to do in the Sheep Department. 335. Mr. W. White'] When did Mr. Maunsell get this appointment as Private Secretary ? —I think he joined in the session of 1878. It was the first session in which Sir George Whitmore was leader of the Upper House. 336. Previously to that he gave the whole of his time for £200 a year ?—No, he was not then in the Service. 337. Seeing that Mr. Mannsell can be spared to do the work of Private Secretary during the session and to be absent from his duties in the Sheep Department, do you not think you could do the work in your own office if you had some little additional assistance? —Tes, I am sure I could. 338. VV Tould you require any assistance at all?—I should require another clerk to replace Mr. Maunsell. 339. Mr. Turnhull.~\ Do I understand you to say that Mr. Maunsell is simply a clerk ? —Tes, he is a clerk in charge of the Sheep Department. 340. Mr. W. O. Buchanan.] How does Mr. Bayly get his clerical work done ? —There is a clerk in the office who is at the disposal of Mr. Bayly for his work. 341. If instructions had to be given to the clerk, and Mr. Maunsell and Mr. Bayly gave different orders, what would be the position ? —I do not know. The thing has not yet occurred, nor is it at all likely. In such a case as that I should have to settle the matter. 342. So far, has there been any clash in consequence of the anomalous positions of these twoofficers ? —Not to my knowledge. 343. Then, no practical necessity has arisen to call for a definition of the duties of the two men ? —No. 344. What are considered to be the office hours of Mr. Maunsell during the session ? —The regular office hours are from h ilf-past nine o'clock a.m. to four p.m., but heads of departments have no office hours. I am frequently at work till midnight, and I know that Mr. Maunsell constantly works till a late hour in the Sheep Office. 345. In the event of both classes of Mr. MaunselFs work clashing, which would have to give way, the Private Secretary or the Sheep Office clerk ? —I should think his sheep duties would suffer, but the clash is not likely to occur. 346. In the ordinary business of the Stock Department would you act without consulting the Minister ? —Tes ; but not in cases in which a question of policy or of appointing an officer was involved. 347. The Chairman.] How are the officers appointed ?—Up to to the time of Mr. Bayly's appointment they were made by the Minister, usually on Mr. Maunsell's recommendation; but now Mr. Bayly recommends. <* 348. But officers have been appointed since Mr. Bayly took office without his being consulted ? —I was not aware of that. I do not think that ought to have happened if Mr. Bayly was within reach. 349. Did you recommend the two officers who were so appointed ?—No. Mr. Maunsell may have recommended them, but it is not usual for him to do so now. At the same time the Minister may have made the appointments himself without any recommendation. 350. How many clerks are there in the Stock Branch ? —Only one permanent clerk. 351. From whom does he receive instructions? —Sometimes from me, but generally from Mr. Bayly and Mr. Maunsell. 352. Then, with the assistance of the permanent clerk and another, you could do all the work of the department without the aid of Mr. Maunsell ? —Tes. If Mr. Maunsell were to leave I should require some one to replace him. 353. Mr. W. O. Buchanan.] Has Mr. Bayly been to Auckland or Napier at all in his official capacity ?—No. I do not think he has yet visited Auckland, Napier, or Now Plymouth, the reason being that his time has been so much taken up in the Middle Island in the work of exterminating the r*abbits.

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