RAILWAY MAP INQUIRY COMMITTEE (REPORT OF, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AND EVIDENCE AND APPENDIX.)

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1879 Session I, I-02

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1879. NEW ZEALAND.

RAILWAY MAP INQUIRY COMMITTEE (REPORT OF, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AND EVIDENCE AND APPENDIX.)

Report brought up 2Qth July, 1879, and ordered to be printed.

ORDEE OF EEFEEENCE. Extract from the Journals of the Souse of Representatives. Wednesday, the 23rd day oe July, 1879. Ordered, That Mr. Speaker, Mr. Eolleston, Mr. Pyke, Hon. Mr. Eicliardson, and the Mover be a Committee to inquire and report whether any alteration was made in the plan laid on the table last session showing the proposed line of the Thames Eailway. Committee to have power to call for persons, papers, and records, and to report within one week.— (Mr. McLean.)

REPOET. The Committee, to whom was referred the question as to whether any alteration was made in the plan laid on the table last session showing the proposed line of the Thames Bailway, have the honor to report: — That, from the evidence of witnesses taken and sworn to before them, they are of opinion — 1. That no alteration was made in the map subsequently to its being laid on the table of the House on the 10th September, 1878. 2. That the map was prepared in tho Public "Works Department, in compliance with the terms of a request made in a question by the Hon. Mr. Bichardson on the 3rd September, 1878. 3. That as the map was originally prepared, it contained no portion of the railway line between Te Aroha and Grahatnstown. 4. That the portion which appears in different tint from the line between Hamilton and Te Aroha was added under instructions from the Hon. the Minister for Public Works. 5. That the map in question was not therefore what was asked for by the Hon. Mr. Richardson, and what in the foot-note upon the map it purported to be —viz., a distinctively-coloured copy of the map attached to the Public Works Statement delivered on the 27th August, 1878. 6. That, in the opinion of the Committee, in all cases of returns made to orders of the House, or furnished in compliance with questions put to Ministers, the permanent heads of departments furnishing such returns should certify to the accuracy of the returns. G. Maueice O'Eobke, 29th July, 1879. Chairman. I—l. 2.

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MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS.

Peiday, 25th July, 1879. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 10 o'clock, a.m. There being no quorum present the Committee adjourned, and met again at 11 o'clock. Present: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Rolleston, Mr. Pyke, Hon. Mr. Richardson, and Mr. McLean. Mr. Speaker was voted to the chair. On the motion of Mr. Rolleston, Besolved, That all evidence to be taken before this Committee be upon oath. The following witnesses were sworn and gave evidence : Major Campbell, Clerk to the House of Representatives, Mr. H. Otterson, Second Clerk-Assistant; Mr. Didsbury, Government Printer; Messrs. Koch and Wrigg, Draughtsmen in the Public Works Office ; Mr. Blaekett, Engineer in Charge, North Island ; Air. McColl, Government Lithographer. Besolved, That Mr. Knowles, the Under Secretary for Public Works, be summoned to give evidence before the Committee at 10 o'clock a.m. to-morrow, and to produce all records in his possession having reference to the Thames Railway ; also that the Hon. the Minister for Public Works be summoned to give evidence before the Committee at 10.30 a.m. The Committe then adjourned till 10 am. to-morrow.

Satueday, 26tu July, 1879. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 10 a.m. Present: Mr. Speaker (Chairman), Mr. Rolleston, Mr. Pyke, Hon. Mr. Richardson, and Mr. McLean. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses gavo evidence upon oath: The Hon. the Minister for Public Works; Mr. John Knowles, Under Secretary for Public Works; and the Hon. Edward Richardson, M.H.R. On the motion of Mr. Rolleston, and carried unanimously, Besolved, That the Committee is of opinion, from the evidence taken, — 1. That no alteration was made in the map subsequently to its being laid on the table of the House on the 10th September, 1878. 2. That the map was prepared in the Public Works Department, in compliance with the terms of a request made in a question by the Honorable Mr. Richardson on the 3rd September, 1878. 3. That, as the map was originally prepared, it contained no portion of the railway line between Te Aroha and Grahamstown. 4. That the portion which appears in different tint from the line between Te Aroha and Hamilton was added under instructions from the Hon. the Minister for Public Works. 5. That the map in question was not therefore what was asked for by the Hon Mr. Richardson, and what in the foot-note upon tha map it purported to be —viz., a distinctively-coloured copy of the map attached to the Public Works Statement delivered on the 27th August, 1878. 6. That, in tho opinion of the Committee, in all cases of returns made to orders of the House, or furnished in compliance with questions put to Ministers, the permanent heads of departments furnishing such returns should certify to the accuracy of the returns. Besolved, That Mr. Rolleston bring up the report to the House on Tuesday next, in accordance with the above resolutions. Besolved, That Mr. Knowles bo ordered to furnish a copy of the memorandum prepared by him, and read by the Hon. the Minister for Public Works before the House on the 23rd July, on the subject of the map before the Committee (Appendix No. 5). Also that he will search and see whether there is any record showing that any previous Government contemplated constructing this railway from Te Aroha to Grahamstown. The Committee then adjourned.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Fbiday, 25th July, 1879. Major Campbell, Clerk of the House of Representatives, sworn and examined. Documents on the subject of the inquiry were handed in by witness and read. (Vide Appendix.) 1. The Chairman.] Since writing that memorandum (Appendix No. 2), have you received any further information bearing on this matter that you think it right to lay before the Committee ?— IVo ; I do not think I have. 2. That document contains all you know on the subject?— That is all I know positively. In addition to the memoranda 1 have presented to the Committee, I produce the map of the North Island aud another of the South Island, showing the lines of railway to be constructed, and those proposed to be constructed.

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3. Mr. Rolleston.] Does Mr. Didsbury's memorandum (Appendix No. 4) contain all that he told you at the time ?—No ; it does not. 4. Would you state anything further that transpired ?—I mentioned to Mr. Didsbury that it was believed alterations had been made in the map of the North Island, aud he informed me that he had made inquiries, and mentioned the name of one person, Mr. Koch, with whom he had conversed on the subject. lam not quite certain that it was Mr. Koch, but he mentioned the name of one person in the office to whom he had addressed himself on the matter, aud he told him that when the map was held up to the light he could see that an alteration had been made. 5. Mr. McLean.] Did Mr. Didsbury say that the map was in his hands from the day that it came to the Parliament Buildings here until it went into Mr. McColl's hands ?—No. 6. It did not go through any other channel ?—I think the memorandum I have laid on the table embodies all that Mr. Didsbury said to me on that subject. In that last answer I gave I stated all that ho said to me on that occasion, in addition to what is contained in the memorandum. 7. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] I would just ask Major Campbell, who is the officer of the House whose business it is when the House rises to see that the papers are in the correct form or otherwise ?—The Second Clerk-Assistant, Mr. Otterson. 8. Mr. Pyke.] Is this map now on the table the one referred to in your evidence ?—Tes. 9. The Chairman.] Do you know whether or not any of your officers saw that map between the time that it was laid on the table and when it was returned ? —No ; no one in my office saw the map from the time that it left my office until it was returned a few days ago. It was in the Lithographic Office. 10. Mr. McLean.] You cannot say, then, of your own knowledge at what time this map left the possession of the House, whether it was immediately after it was laid on the table on the 10th of September, or after the end of the session ? —Tes ; I have stated that in the written memorandum. It was after the end of the session. 11. Then it did not leave the House until after the session had terminated ? —That I cannot state positively. Members are frequently in the habit of removing papers from the table of the House. Major Campbell was thanked for his attendance and withdrew. Mr. H. Otteeson, Second Clerk-Assistant, sworn aud examined. 12. The Chairman.] What is the title of your office, Mr. Otterson ? —Second Clerk-Assistant to the House of Representatives. 13. As Second Clerk-Assistant are the documents laid on the table in your custody?— They are generally during the session in the immediate custody of the officer below me, who keeps a list of them —the Reader. 14. Have you any specific recollection with regard to this map of the North Island in which aline of railway from Te Aroha to Grahamstown is shown ?—I have no recollection with regard to the form of the map or the lines laid out upon it. I know from our records that the map was laid on the table on the 10th of September, and was ordered by the Printing Committee to be printed on the 21st of October. 15. Can you state of your own knowledge when it left the premises to be printed ?—No. About a week afterthesess-'onl collected the manuscript papers on the table of the House, and deposited them in Major Campbell's office to be lettered, numbered, and sent to the Printer. We letter and number all papers except the Public Works documents, and the rule is that they should be numbered by the Public Works Office. This paper was sent down by Major Campbell to the Printer, and, while in his hands, Mr. Knowles, Under Secretary for Public Works, supplied the letter and number for it. 16. When did you first hear of any supposed discrepancy between the' map laid on the table and this ?—Not until Mr. Bichardson came into my office last Monday, I think. I should like to mention that we have very little control over these papers during the time that Parliament is in session, because the Chamber is open at all hours, and members frequently remove the papers from the table. Ido not see how we can retain complete control unless messengers are appointed to have constant charge of the boxes in" which the papers are placed. Under the present system, papers are frequently removed for days together. 17. When documents are ordered to be printed, and are returned from the Printing Office, are they compared with the original ?—They are, except in cases of maps, which are generally compared by the Public Works Department. 18. Put, in the case of maps, the comparison with original documents is not conducted by the officers of the House ? —No ; it has not been the rule. 19. Mr. Bolleston] Have you any knowledge of this discrepancy?—No ; none at all. 20. You know nothing further of this, then, than what you have now stated ? —No, nothing further. As to the last paragraph of memorandum handed in by me. [Memorandum read, Appendix No. 6.1 AVhen the other day inquiries were made about the maps, we got them from Mr. Didsbury. He got them from the Public Works Office, I understand. 21. The Chairman.] Did you understand these maps were lying in the Public Works Office or in the Printing Office? —I did not know of my own knowledge until I was told by Mr. Didsbury the other day. After all the manuscript papers of 1878 ordered to be printed were printed, they were put away carefully by me. I did not examine the whole of each paper to see if the enclosures were there. I put away the cover-sheet of the paper in question, thinking it a complete paper, about two months ago. 22. Mr. McLean.] AVhen was it that you discovered this cover belonging to the Public Works papers with the maps missing ? —I put it away, not knowing that the map was missing, and Mr. Bell, in looking out the paper for Mr. Bichardson last Monday, discovered that the maps were not attached to the cover. 23. And they must have been missing ever since it was sent to the Printer?— Since Major Campbell sent it down. He sent batches to the Printer as they were required. I suppose this would be sent down about a month after the session.

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24. Have you any record as to what time it was taken away to the Printer ? —We have a record of all papers numbered except the Public Works papers, and they are allowed to be lettered and numbered by the Public Works Department. 25. Hon. Mr. Bichardson.] You stated that you gathered up these papers immediately after the session. Was that map attached to tho document—was the document complete then ? —I am tolerably sure it was. I looked over the papers then, and I should have missed it if it had not been there. 26. Mr. Pyke.] Is there any reason, Mr. Otterson, for the exception of Public Works papers in the way you describe ? I understood you to say that the papers were lettered and numbered by Major Campbell, except Public Works papers; is there any cause for Public Works papers being so excepted?—There was some difficulty one year about numbering Public Works papers. Ido not know what the cause exactly was, but an arrangement was made that the Public Works Office should be allowed to number their own papers, and they have done so for three or four years. The witness was thanked for his attendance and withdrew. Mr. G. Didsbuey, Government Printer, sworn and examined. 27. The Chairman.] You are the Government Printer, Mr. Didsbury?—l am. 28. Would you inform the Committee what course you adopt when you get documents such as plans handed over to be printed as Appendices to the Journals ? —Any plan that has to be lithographed I send on to the person in charge of the Lithograph Department, now Mr. McColl. When the Lithograph Department was under my control I used to make arrangements with the draughtsman to do whatever work was necessary, and send the account in for whatever work he had performed to the Legislative Department for payment; but, in this instance, the department not being under my control, I simply handed it over to the foreman of the lithographic branch, and left him to make all the necessary arrangements for doing the work. 29. Does he return the documeuts to you when the impression has been taken off the stone, in order that you may compare it with the document that you furnished to him?—No, he does not. I thought he would return the document direct to the House after it was done, but when inquiries were made for the document, I went up into the lithographic department, and I found it in the drawer of the lithographer. 30. Have you any information with regard to the document under consideration, viz., of the North Island, showing constructed railways, and those about to be constructed ?—I have none of my own knowledge. I can only give what information has been communicated to me by Mr. Koch. 31. Who is Mr. Koch ? —Draughtsman iv the Public Works Office. 32. What information did he give you on the subject? —When Major Campbell asked me first if I could gather information as to whether any alteration had been made in the map after it was placed in my hands for lithographing, I went up to the lithographic office, questioned the foreman there, and got what particulars I could as to when it was printed, and by whom the draughtsman's work was done. Mr. Koch happened to be in the lithographic department at that time, working at one of the stones there, and he told me that he had plotted the railway lines in. I asked him if he could tell me whether any alteration was made from the original map after it was placed in his hands. He told me no alteration was made after it was placed iv his hands, but he knew it was not in the same condition now as when it was presented to the House. 33. Who would put the document into his hands? When would that occurrence take place ?— lam not quite sure by whom the document was placed in his hands. The Lithographic Department is at present connected with the Survey Department. I believe Mr. McColl communicated with the Survey Department, and Mr. Barron said that, as it was a Public Works affair, they had better get one of the Public Works Draughtsmen to do the work and plot the lines on the stone, showing the railways authorized and proposed. 34. After the document was laid on the table, supposed to contain the lines of constructed railways and railways proposed to be constructed, was there any necessity that the plan should be referred to the draughtsman before lithographing? —Yes; it could not be photo-lithographed, because the lines were in colours. If the lines had been in black there would have been no necessity for employing a draughtsman ; but as they were painted in red they could not be photographed, consequently a draughtsman had to be employed. 35. Mr. Pyke.] Is the lithographic department in the same building as the printing?— Yes. I should state that, when I made iuquiries, I examined the stone which contained the map, to satisfy myself that the lines had not been put on after the map had been transferred on the stone. I thought, by the appearance of the map, that the line from Te Aroha Mountain to the Thames had been added afterwards, in consequence of the variation in the size of the blocks from that point, but I found that was not the case, and that the map, as printed, was placed on the stone at the same time. There were not two operations. 36. Mr. McLean.] I suppose you will be able to find out at what time the map was placed on the stone ? —Yes. 37. The Chairman.] When this map was put into Mr. Koch's hands, what line of railway would he have to put on the stone ? Would he have to put on this black line ?—Yes ; he would have to take a transfer first of the map already on the stone, and then plot in the lines of railway required on the transfer-paper copy, after which operation it is retransferred to another stone and printed off. They never interfere with the stone containing the map of New Zealand ; but when another map has to be prepared, an impression is taken on the transfer paper, and whatever additional work is necessary is put on that paper, and then it is put on another stone. 38. Mr. Bolleston.] Are you of opinion that this piece from Te Aroha to Grahamstown was put on the map at a different time from that between Hamilton and Te Aroha ? —Yes. 39. Why do you think that?— The tint is not the same, and moreover the person who put it on informed me that it was added on afterwards. Mr. Wrigg (showed me the record map in the Public Works Department, where this portion of the line is simply marked in red chalk, not in carmine colours at all.

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40. Did he inform you by whose instructions these were put on?—I understood him to say that it was by the orders of Mr. Blaekett. 41. The Chairman^] Did you ascertain from him that the extensions on the map were made subsequent to the document being laid on the table or previous ?—I believe his memory is not quite clear, but he thinks it was done before it was presented to Parliament. 42. Mr. McLean.] Look at this map for yourself, and hold it up between you and the light. Would you consider, as an expert, that that bit had been added after the other ?—I have already answered that. My own opinion was that it had been added on. 43. The Chairman.] Why was the Lithographic Department separated or taken from under your control ? —A good deal or most of the work that is done in the department is in connection with Public Works, and, as many draughtsmen are constantly employed in doing the work in connection with this department, I believe it was thought better to have it under the control of Public Works. It has subsequently been placed under the Survey Department. 44. Who is now the permanent head?— The Surveyor-General. The witness was thanked for his attendance and withdrew. Mr. A. Koch, Draughtsman in Public Works Department, sworn and examined. 45. The Chairman.] What position do you hold, Mr. Koch, in the Public Works Department ?—I am Draughtsman in the Public Works Department, and have principally to do with all maps in that department. 46. Did this map of the North Island, showing the proposed lines of railway, pass under your hand ?—Yes. 47. Would you inform the Committee by whom these red lines were placed upon the map ? —I believe these red lines were put on originally by Mr. Wrigg, the Chief Draughtsman in the department. 48. Did these red lines in any way pass under your supervision ? —Yes ; after they had been put on, Mr. Didsbury sent the map over to have copies printed, and the map was handed over to me to work from, to put on the stone. 49. Are you quite clear that when the map was handed to you by Mr. Didsbury, this red line, showing the railway from Te Aroha to Grahamstown, was on the map ? —Yes; this red line was not originally on the map. There is a piece added on to it. It is a different colour altogether. I saw it when I held it up to the light. This piece from Te Aroha to Grahamstown is an additional piece put on. I told Mr. Wrigg I thought so, and he said, " Yes, I put it on myself sometime ago." My reason why I observed it was it being just the time the sod was turned at the Thames. I said to Mr. WrigK, " The sod is turned upon the red line, because the line shows red through to Grahamstown." Mr. Wrigg said he had put it on afterwards. 50. When did this conversation take place between you and Mr. Wrigg ; was it after the session had closed ?—lt was about the 20th February. This map has been out of the House, and in the hands of the Clerk of the House, and afterwards in Mr. Didsbury's hands, between September and February, and I only put this on the stone in February last, about four or five months ago. 51. Did Mr. Wrigg convey to you any impression of the time when this difference was made ?— He did not tell me any time, but only said it was put on after the original lines were drawn on the map. I said, " I see it is additional," and held it up to the light to show that it was not in the same colours. 52. This map was laid on the table on the 10th September; dd you think it was after that these extensions were put on ? —lt would not be fair for me to state, because I cannot tell. 53. You stated your principal duty is to look after the maps in the office; do the records come into your hands?—No ; I have nothing to do with them. 54. If there was an instruction from the Public Works to put this extension on the map, would these documents cotno under your notice?—lf the job was of any consequence the document would be sent to me, but no trivial alteration. I believe that is the reason I had nothing to do with it, it being a trivial job that any one in the office might put on ; but if it was a job that would occupy a day, or half a day, I should have got it to do. One colour seemed to be lake and the other carmine. That is the difference I noticed. That is the reason my attention was called to it. 55. What is this black dotted line from Hamilton to Te Aroha ? —That indicated originally the line that was passed by the House, and the part tinted by Mr. Wrigg connected the line between the Thames and Te Aroha. This map is on the stone in the Public Works Office. To avoid labour we simply transfer from this to put on another stone, and the differences are put on afterwards. That is drawn from the Public Works Office; it is always the same map over again. 56. What does this black dotted line indicate? Docs it indicate the actual survey from Hamilton to Te Aroha ?—lt indicates the original survey that was made. 57. Did that original survey according to this terminate in the neighbourhood of Te Aroha Mountain ? —-Yes. 58. Is there anything to indicate on this plan that the preliminary survey was extended to Grahamstown ?—The continuation between the Thames Biver is added exactly the same as the roads. There is no indication of a railway between the crossing at the Thames Biver and Te Aroha. 59. When this new map is taken off the stone and the new lines are shown upon it, does it then come under your supervision ? —After it has been examined and checked in order to see that no mistakes have been made in putting it on the stone I have nothing to do with it. 60. Who attends to that ?—Mr. Wrigg and myself generally check the work, and if there is any correction to be made I make it. 61. Then, was it on that occasion that the conversation took place between you and Mr. Wrigg as to that extension ?—No. Mr. Wrigg brought the map from Mr. Didsbury, and told me to put it on the stone. I asked him what lines I should show in the lithography, and he said, " Show big, strong lines, nearly a quarter of an inch thick." I looked down upon the map and, pointing out a piece, said, " That piece is added." He said, " Yes, I added it since."

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62. Mr. Rolleston.] Since when ?—Since the map was on the table of the House. 63. The Chairman!] Did you ever see this map with the red line terminating at Te Aroha ? —I saw it before, but I certainly could not take an oath that it was not done then. My reason for saying it was done since was the different colour, knowing, at the time, the alteration had been started from there. 64. Mr. McLean.] When you get instructions about lines on a map they are conveyed to you in writing, aro they not? —No, they are not conveyed in writing. Sometimes instructions would be written, but most instructions I receive verbally. 65. And you have no recollections of any papers bearing memorauda of Ministers being forwarded to you with this?— No. The witness was thanked for his attendance and withdrew. Mr. 11. C. AY. Weigg, Chief Draughtsman, Public AVorks Department, sworn and examined. 66. The Chairman.] AVhatposition do you hold, Mr. AVrigg, in the Public Works Department? — Chief Draughtsman. 67. Do you recollect a map being laid on the table of the House last session, showing the proposed lines of railway in the North Island? —I do. 6S. Did this map pass through your hands before it was laid on the table ? —lt did. 69. AVould you look at this map, and state to the Committee whether this line of railway from Hamilton to Grahamstown appeared upon the plan that was laid on the table ? —ln this map, from Hamilton to Te Aroha, only. There has been an alteration in the map since it went through my hands the first time. 70. Do you think this line from Te Aroha to Grahamstown was shown on the plan laid on the table on the 10th September ?—To the best of my belief it was. 71. AVhat alterations were you allowed to make in this plan?—To the best of my belief, when we made this plan the line was carried to Te Aroha, and I was sent for and asked to make the differences. 72. Before it was laid on the table ?—Yes. 73. Who sent for you, and asked you to put the extension on the map ? —Mr. Blaekett. 74. And you simply extended it as he instructed you to do?— Yes, by Mr. Blaekett; by order of the Minister. 75. Of course you obeyed the instructions to put it on ?—Yes. 76. Did you put on that portion which extends from Hamilton to Te Aroha ?—No; that is put on by the draughtsman. 77. Did you put on this red line showing the proposed railway from Hamilton to Te Aroha ?— No. 78. Did you put on the extension from Te Aroha to the Thames ? —Yes, I did. •79. Can you give us any idea when you put on the extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown ? — I can positively state it was done before the 23rd September. 80. This document was laid on the table on the 10th September. I think I understood you to say it was the same day, but you think it was on the 23rd ?—I think so, because we had a copy filed on the 23rd September, on which the alterations appear. It has never been out, to my own knowledge, since. 81. Then you are quite sure on the 23rd September this extension is shown on it?—lt is only put on in red pencil on the record plan, but that plan has not been out since. 82. AVho put on that red pencilling ?—I believe I put that on. 83. And you made the pencil-mark ? —To the best of my belief I did. I did all the copies also. 84. Are such records as letters in your keeping?— Whenever there has been attached a record plan on the face of the document. 85. If there was written instruction for this extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown, in whose hands would that record be ? —I fancy in the hands of the Chief Clerk. 86. Who is the Chief Clerk ?—At that time Mr. Benzoui. 87. Is he still iv the office ?—Yes. 88. AVould you inform the Committee who put on this red line showing the proposed railway from Hamilton to Te Aroha? —I could not tell the draughtsman's name, but it was done under my directions from instructions received from the office. I do not know who gave the instructions, but it went through just as it appears in this plan without the addition. 89. Mr. McLean.] Do you state positively that this red line from Hamilton to Te Aroha, and this line from To Aroha to the Thames, were put on this map within a day or two of each other ? —I cannot swear that, but I think so. Certainly it was before the 23rd. I believe it was the same day. 90. You will not swear it was before the 11th September?—No ; because the maps only left me about the 10th September. 91. Mr. Rolleston.] Did you not consider that this map ought to represent the Public Works Statement ?—No, I have nothing to do with that. My attention was drawn to it afterwards. 92. Mr. McLean.] AVho drew your attention to it afterwards ?—One of the draughtsmen, Mr. Koch. 93. Did you make any statement to Mr. Koch then ? —I told Mr. Koch that it was done within a day, or the same day, to the best of my belief. 94. When was this map sent to be put upon the stone ?—lt was in February. 95. AVhen did it come into your possession?—ln February. The same day that I got it it was put on the stone. 96. The same day that you got it from the lithographers ? —Yes. 97. The Chairman.] Have you any idea of the interval between putting on the line showing the railway from Hamilton to Te Aroha, and the line showing the extension ? —I am certain it was after, but could not say the date.

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98. Mr. McLean.] Then you had no written instructions requiring you to make out this map with the red lines upon it ?—No ; no written instructions. 99. AVho pointed out the place to you that those red lines were to be put upon ?—I think it was Mr. Blaekett. It passed through Mr. Blackett's hands afterwards for approval. 100. Who gave you instructions to put on these red lines ?—Mr. Blaekett. 101. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] Have you any record as to when you absolutely put on these red lines, and when the map left your office ?—The original of that map was recorded. It was registered on the 9th September. I expect that would be the day it left my hands. 102. Can you positively state that that line, as it is now on that map, was there on the 9th September ? —I cannot say that positively. I know that that line was put on after the map had first of all passed my hands —I mean the line from Te Aroha to the Thames. 103. Have you got any record as to when that alteration was made ?—No ; for a small alteration like that it would not be necessary. 104. In what office was that alteration made—was that alteration made in the drawing office, in Mr. Blackett's office, or yours ? —ln my own office. 105. And by whom ? —By me. 106. Who else was in the room ? —No one. 107. AVho directed you to do it ?—Mr, Blaekett, 108. Where was he when he directed you to do it ?—ln his own room. 109. Do you remember the conversation that took place ou the day that the map was brought to you to put on the stone ? —Yes, I remember. 110. You remember Mr. Koch pointing out to you that that additional line between Te Aroha and Grahamstown had been put on subsequently to the other?—He drew attention to the difference in the colours, which is quite perceptible. 111. Would you answer the question I have put to you? Do you remember his calling attention to the fact that it was put on subsequently to the other?— Yes. 112. Do you remember what your reply was ?—At the time I did not think much of it at all. He said it was a swindle. I said, " I believe it was put on the very day the map left my hands." 113. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] Do you remember the conversation that took place at the time, because it has been stated here in evidence that Mr. Koch called your attention to the fact that that line —the extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown—had been put on the map subsequently to the portion between Hamilton and Te Aroha ? Yes, I remember that. 114. Do you remember what conversation took place on his calling attention to that fact ?— Well, he drew my attention to the fact by saying that it was a swindle. 115. What further took place ? —I said, "So far as that goes, to the best of my belief, it was done on the same day that the map went on the table." 116. Did you ever see that map again from the time you put that line on yourself till it was brought to you ?—Never. 117. Would there have been any record of it if it had been in the hands of any officer of your department ?—lf that map had come up for alterations or additions I should have entered it in the book, but not if the alterations were small. 118. I asked you the question before, but I should like to ask you again, can you state positively that the map was in the Public AVorks Office after the 10th September till February ? —Not in my charge. I cannot state positively whether it was put on the table on the 10th. 119. You stated in the reply you made just now that Mr. Koch, in pointing it out to you, said it was a swindle. AVhat did you consider he meant at the time? Did you pay any particular attention to that? —I am not a politician, but I fancy he meant to say it was something political. I inferred it was some little move that was on, and took it for granted it was such. 120. No further conversation took place on that subject between you ?—No ; that was all that passed. 121. Mr. Pyke.] Did you state that the alteration on the record map was also made by yourself? —It was. There are five or six copies of that map in the office. It is done in red pencil on the record map. 122. AVas that by Mr. Blackett's instruction ?—I did that for my own information—to keep a record as well as what is distributed. 123. The Chairman.] Why is it put on the record map in pencil ? —Bed pencil would show almost the same as lake. It would stand for almost the same thing with a draughtsman, the colour of red. 124. I understand this was put on in pencil by yourself. Why not put it on the record map the same as the House copy ? —Because I did not do it the same time. 125. Mr. Pyke.] Was it done on the same day ? —I cannot say that, but I think on the 23rd. 126 Mr. Rolletton.] Did you call any attention to the fact that this addition made a variation from what was presumably the order of the House ? —No, none. 127. Mr. McLean.] I should like to distinctly understand if you can state whether it was on the same day, or at a distance of two days or three days, that you put this on, after you put it on in pencil on the record map ? —AVell, I cannot distinctly state that, but the way it was put on in pencil was that it was on my table. I might be called away, and in doing so just put a red-pencil mark on the original record, in which very few would find the difference except a draughtsman. By right it should be done in colour. 12S. The Chairman.] How was that line from Hamilton to Te Aroha shown on the record map ? —Up to the Thames Biver it was shown in colour; from Te Aroha to the Thames in red pencil to correspond with that map. 129. Mr. McLean.] Then on the record map it is shown in colour as far as Hamilton to Te Aroha, and from Te Aroha to the Thames in red pencil ? —Yes. 130. Can you test your memory as to how long it was after you put on that from Hamilton to Te Aroha, you put on that to the Thames ?—lt was only a small alteration, and I would take no note of it.

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131. Please answ rer my question, Ido not want your opinions. Do you consider it a small matter to add thirty miles of railway to a line ? —I did not know what depended upon it. 132. Are you on good terms with Mr. Koch ? —Yes. 133. Always been ?—Yes. 134. Never had any quarrel ?—None.' 135. You are next to him; he is your senior, is he not ?—No ; but there is not much difference. 136. Have you ever said anything about this matter outside your office ?—Never. 137. To no one ?—No. 138. You are positive ?—Positive ; except to Mr. Didsbury yesterday. 139. What did you say to him ? —I asked him in the lobby what was the matter about the map. He told me what the inquiries had been, aud I said I put the alteration on myself. 140. Did you tell him the time when it was done ?—I told him it was done about the same day so far as I could recollect, but I could not be positive. 141. Did you see any papers with memoranda of Ministers relating to this alteration ?—No, never. 142. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] Mr. Wrigg stated in reply to you, Mr. Chairman, that the record map was made first. Are you quite clear about that ? —Yes," I think it was made first, because it was a draft. 143. Well, then, how comes it that was in pencil in your office as a record map, and that afterwards you made this map from that record map and did not colour that ? —No; I did the addition on this map before the record map. It had left my hands. 144. The Chairman.] Well, then, your answer was misleading, because I asked you whether the line from Te Aroha to Grahamstown was first marked on the record map ? —No; that portion was not on the record map. The whole of the other portion was on the record map first. 145. Mr. McLean.] You are contradicting yourself. You stated that this portion of the line from Te Aroha to the Thames was put upon the record map first; and subsequently you said it was afterwards. You do not mean that—that it was on the House map ? —I meant that it was on that map first. That was done in a hurry when I made that alteration. 146. Did you put the line from Te Aroha to the Thames on this map that was laid on the table of the House before it was put on the record map ?—Yes. 147. Can you recollect how long before you put it on the record map ? —No; but it was before the 23rd. 148. Was it before the 10th ?—I will not swear that. I have no record when the map passed my hands after then ; it was supposed to be out of my hands on the 10th. I believe it went out of my hands on that day. 149. The Chairman.] I suppose there would be no difficulty in obtaining the record map from your office ?—No ; it is mounted. The witness was thanked for his attendance, and withdrew. Mr. Blackett, Engineer in Charge, North Island, sworn and examined. 150. The Chairman.] What is the title of your office, Mr. Blackett ?—Engineer in Charge of the North Island. 151. Would you tell the Committee when you got instructions to show the proposed railway extension from Te Aroba to Grahamstown ?—I could not tell within any particular date, more than very generally. 152. What instructions did you at any time receive for showing the extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown? —The first instructions were to prepare a map, which I suppose that would represent, showing in black and red lines, the lines under construction and those proposed, so far as I can make out. This map, after it was prepared, was submitted to the Minister for Public AVorks, as usual in all these matters, for his approval; and, on his looking over it, he directed that the line from Hamilton to Te Aroha, shown in red, should be extended to Grahamstown. 153. Were these verbal instructions ?—Verbal instructions in his own office, to the best of my memory. 154. Had you any written instructions showing the extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown ? — No; just in the ordinary course of business to extend the coloured line from Te Aroha to Grahamstown ; and it was done accordingly. 155. Was anything said as to the probable cost of extending that line ? —No ; I do not remember anything being said about that. 156. Are the records of the office in your custody ?—Yes; we have record clerks, who are supposed to have charge of everything. There is a complete system of record in the office. 157. Do you know whether there is anything in writing with regard to the proposed extension to Grahamstown ? —At that time, I suppose you mean ? 158. Yes ; at that time ? —No, Ido not; I do not remember any. If there is, it is not in my cognizance. 159. AVhen did you, as Engineer in charge of these railways, show the contemplated extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown ? —lt was not in the way of contemplation, but the result of an order to prepare contracts beginning at Grahamstown. 160. I mean with regard to putting it on the map ?—I have explained as nearly as possible what took place. The order was given in the Minister's own office to produce the red line that stopped at Te Aroha, to Grahamstown. 161. Do you know whether that was before the Minister made his Public Works Statement or afterwards ? —I think the map was prepared at the instance of a member who asked for it, to be shown in the House. 162. AVould you look at the map prepared for the Public Works Statement, and say whether that line indicated the extension from Grahamstown to Te Aroha?—No : that shows it to Te Aroha, and stops there; and that is the line described in my annual report in detail as from Hamilton to Te Aroha.

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163. Was there any estimate of the cost of that line from Hamilton to Te Aroha? —Yes; it is contained in the Minister's Statement. 164. What was the probable cost ?—I think it is £168,000. 165. AVas there a preliminary survey of the line from Hamilton to Te Aroha ? —Yes ; there was a preliminary survey, and an estimate formed. 166. Was there any estimate of the cost from Hamilton to Grahamstown? —Not before the order was given to make contracts at Grahamstown. 167. Had your department made any estimate of the cost from Grahamstown to Te Aroha before the Assembly rose last year ?—No. 168. AVhen you got the order to show this extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown, whom did you direct to put it on the plan ?—I think it would be handed to Mr. Wrigg iv the regular way. He does all that in the ordinary way. I have copies in my department which show the extension to Grahamstown in slightly different tints, showing that it was put on afterwards. There were two or three copies made at the same time. 169. After you got orders to make this extension, did you see the plan before it was laid on the table of the House ? —1 think it would be shown to me in the regular way, and I would again show it to the Minister for his approval. 170. Did this plan that was laid on the table on the 10th of September show the extension to Grahamstown ? —Yes. 171. You think it did ?—I have no doubt about it myself. 172. Mr. Rolleston.] In the case of an order of the House such as this, does not the order of the House come direct to you through the Clerk of Parliaments as permanent officer of the department ? —No ;it would come to the Under Secretary, who would initial it and say, " Please prepare." 173. Would it not be part of your duty to see that the order of the House was complied with ?— Yes, I suppose it would be. 174. Do you consider that this map complies with the order of the House? —Well, I think that would depend upon the Minister interpreting it. I consider an order from a Minister to put anything on a map imperative. He would say, "We propose to make this line from Hamilton to Grahamstown," and then I should think I was doing right in making that red line. 175. Did you call the Minister's attention to the fact that this was in addition to the order of the House ? —That would be known to the Minister. 176. Did you call his attention to it ? —To the best of my belief, I did. 177. Mr. McLean.] How long was it, Mr. Blackett, between the time you ordered this to be put on from Hamilton to Te Aroha, and the time you ordered this from Te Aroha to the Thames ?—lt would be a very short time ; probably the same day. I suppose these maps would not take more than a day to get up. I think it would be the same or the very next day. It would be a very short time. 178. Have you any written instructions about putting these lines on the map ?—I really cannot say. I have merely stated the general procedure. Mr. Knowles gets instructions, and sends them to me for execution. 179. Is it not usual, when instructions come from the Clerk of Parliaments for any map or return ordered by the House, for the heads of departments to receive the Order of Beference ? —Yes, I think, in the way I have stated. Ido not get the order directly. 180. That order of reference comes to the Under Secretary?— Yes, as a rule. 181. Well, is it not the ordinary rule that the Under Secretary initials it, and sends on to you a memorandum to prepare it ?—Yes. 182. Do you consider that you complied with the order of the House in adding that piece from Te Aroha to the Thames ? —I scarcely think I had the option of forming an opinion upon it. 183. But in compliance with the order of the House you put on that piece from Hamilton to Te Aroha? —Yes ; aud was afterwards instructed to lengthen it. 184. And you handed that back to the Under Secretary as if you were complying with the instructions of the House ?—Yes. 185. Have you any recollection as to how long it was before it came back to you to put that addition from Te Aroha to the Thames upon it ?—That was not given by the Under Secretary ; it was a verbal order from the Minister. 186. When this map went to the Minister, was this line on it from Hamilton to Te Aroha ? I presume he sent for you to his room ? —I was in his room. I believe I took the map myself. 187. And by his own instuctions you put the addition on ? —Yes. 188. That was before that map was laid on the table of the House ?—Yes. 189. And the map in the Public AVorks Statement, delivered by the Minister for Public Works, is not the same as that map which was put on the table afterwards ?—They are taken off the same stone, I believe. 190. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] Has that line between Te Aroha and Grahamstown been surveyed up to the present time ? —No ; it has only been surveyed about nine miles up the Thames from Grahamstown. • 191. AVhere did that survey commence?—At Grahamstown, working up tho valley. 192. AVhy has not that survey been completed ? —I think, when the surveyors got to the place where they stopped, the Natives stepped in and prevented them going any further. 193. Are you aware of the 3rd clause of the Railways Construction Act of last session, which states that you, as Engineer in Charge of the North Island, have to certify that the best route for the railway has been taken before it can be commenced ? —Yes. 194. Did you make any such report upon that ?—Yes ; so far as the contracts were let. 195. How far were the contracts let ?—They did not proceed beyond Kauaeranga—merely the foreshore of tho Thames. 196. Mr. Rolleston.] AVhat was the length ?—I think about a mile and thirteen chains. They were just the reclamation contracts. 2—l. 2.

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197. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] AVhat is the amount of the contracts? —Grahamstown contract, 20 chains, £7,538 135.; Shortland contract, 73 chains, £8,393 Is. 4d. 19S. Mr. Bolleston.] There is only that mile and thirteen chains upon which your report goes?— I have only certified that it is the best available route as far as the work is let. 199. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] I moved in the House on the 3rd September last year, a few days after the Public AVorks Statement was made, for a copy of a plan to show " the railways now proposed." AVas there any plan in existence at that time showing that railway between Te Aroha and Grahamstown as a line proposed to be constructed —that is, was there anything in the office to show that the railway was then proposed to be constructed by the Government ?—No ; I had prepared no plans of it whatever. 200. There is no public record that shows it, so far as you are aware ? —Not that I am aware of. 201. If there had been any plan you would have beeu aware of it ? —Yes. 202. Then I understand that a proposal to extend the line from Te Aroha to Grahamstown came before the department after the 3rd of September of last year ?—That being the date on which you asked for it ? 203. Yes ?—Oh, decidedly yes. 204. AVere you called upon during the last session of Parliament, or before last session to make any estimate of the cost of that line between Te Aroha and Grahamstown ? —No. 205. Have you ever made such an estimate ? —No. 206. Not up to the present time ?—No ; merely verbal. 207. You have made no official estimate ? —No. 208. The Chairman.] AVhen a railway is to be constructed in the North, whose duty is it to prepare an estimate? —The Engineer of the district generally goes over the line, makes "a survey, and compiles an estimate, which is submitted for approval at head-quarters. 209. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] To whom ? —To me. 210. The Chairman.] Is there any official correspondence between you and the District Engineer with regard to the starting of this railway between Grahamstown and Hamilton ?—Yes ; there would bo in the ordinary way orders to him to make a survey and prepare contracts. 211. Did you prepare an estimate, before the Public AVorks Statement was made last year, of the cost of the proposed railway ?—AVe accepted the estimate made by the Engineer who surveyed it. 212.—H0w much was that ?—£168,000 I think. 213. AVas the appropriation increased in consequence of this proposed extension to Grahamstown ? —No. 214. What was the total vote?—£l6B,ooo for thirty miles. 215. That was the estimate from Hamilton to Te Aroha ?—Yes. Mr. A. McColl, Government Photo-lithographer, sworn and examined. 216. The Chairman.] AVhat is your official position under the Government ?—I am in charge of the Lithograph Department and also of tho Photo-lithograph. 217. How long have you held that appointment ?—Since last October. 218. Do you recollect getting instructions to prepare this map of 'the North Island, showing the proposed lines of railway ?—Yes. 219. Have you any idea about what time you received instructions to put these lines on the map ? —I think about the latter part of January. 220. Do you recollect whether this was the document that was put before you?—lt seems like it; I could not swear to it. 221. So far as you recollect, did the plan when placed in your hands show this line of railway from AVaikato to Grahamstown?—Yes ; I think so. 222. Did it strike you that there was any peculiarity in the manner in which this red line was shown from Hamilton to Grahamstown ? —No. 223. I allude to the fact that they are in different tints. Did that not strike you ?—No. 224. AVhat map is that in your hand, Mr. McColl?—That is the copy that was sent to the Public AVorks Office for approval. 225. Was that approval marked ? —Thero was simply the number to be put on (printed). AVitness was thanked for his attendance and withdrew.

Saturday, 26th July, 1879. Hon. J. Macandeew, Minister for Public Works, sworn aud examined. 226. The Chairman.] You are the Minister for Public Works, Mr. Macandrew, and were so last year ? —Yes. 227. Do you recollect that there was a plan attached to your Public AVorks Statement showing the proposed railways in the North Island ? —Yes. 225. Subsequent to that statement being made, on the motion of Mr. Richardson, there was a demand made for an order showing the different proposed lines of railway and the existing railways ? •I do not think it was a motion ; if I mistake not, it was a question. 229. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] It was a question.—l think the question was put to me about a week after the Public AVorks Statement had been made. 230. Do you recollect with regard to the Thames Railway whether there was any difference between the plan in your Public Works Statement and the plan subsequently laid on the table? [Map laid on table of House produced.]— The plau attache! to the Public Works .Statement, I think, shows the line at a point from the Thames Biver above Grahamstown somewhere, and the plan that was put on tho table subsequently shows the line to Grahamstown, the intention having always been, as I understood in fact, that the Thames and Grahamstown were synonymous, and it ought to have appeared in the first plan.

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231. Have you a distinct recollection that the map laid on the table showed the extension to Grahamstown ?—I am not aware I ever saw that plan. The plan was prepared in the office in the usual way. 232. Did you give any instrticlioiis to Mr. Blackett to exhibit a railway to Grahamstown instead of stopping at Te Aroha ? —I do not recollect; but I have no doubt I should have given instructions. 233. Was there auy survey or estimate made of the proposed line of railway from Hamilton to Grahamstown at that time? —Not at that time; for a portion, not for the whole. 231. What money was voted for this line of railway last session?—£3o,ooo. I understand that in being summoned here to-day I was to give evidence as to whether or not a map had beeu tampered with, and I have no hesitation in saying No. Ido not see how it was possible that it could have been tampered with. 235. Mr. McLean.] You say you thought Te Aroha and the Thames were synonymous; do you recollect now this map being brought to you in accordance with this order of the House by your officers ?—I have no recollection of the map being brought to me. 236. If Mr. Blackett says he brought the map to you in accordance with the order of the House, and that, you afterwards ordered him to put on this long red line down to Grahamstown, will you contradict him ? You say that you understood that from Hamilton to Te Aroha aud from Hamilton to the Thames were the same? —I say, as a stranger to the district, I always understood that "the Thames" meant Grahamstown—that the two words were synonymous. 237. Have you any recollection of Mr. Blackett sending this plan or bringing it to your room in accordance with the order of the Houso ?—I have no recollection of any order of the House. 238. Have you any recollection then of your specially ordering Mr. Blackett to have this line put upon the map from Te Aroha to Grahamstown ?—I have no recollection of ordering Mr. Blackett to do anything of the sort, but if he says so I have no doubt I did. 239. Look at the difference in these two ? —I see it. 240. You see there is a difference in the tint of that line to Te Aroha, and the space where you ordered it to be put on down to the Thames; it is just double the distance? —I do not know that it is. I do not see much difference in the tint. 241. If the draughtsman says he did put it on afterwards, and tho Chief Engineer says it was put on by your order, will you contradict them ? —My own opinion was that the railway was to go to Grahamstown, and I believe that was the intention of the previous Government for some years before. 242. I want to get out how this piece was put on the plan. You are aware that thirty-two miles were put on from this Public Works Statement ? —I do not know the length. 243. You can see that from Hamilton to Te Aroha and from Te Aroha to the Thames is just about the same distance? —I suppose it is. 244. Would it not strike you as rather strange that you should put on double the distance ?—I do not know how far I am required to answer these questions, Mr. Chairman. Question repeated. —If the Committee is to go into the political position of the matter, and the policy of the Government, then I submit that is not the Order of Reference, and I ought to have been a member of the Committee. I believe that when Mr. Richardson put the question, the map either had been or was being prepared upon a larger scale than the one attached to the Public Works Statement. 215. The Chairman.] Did you feel that in laying this map on the table you were showing a different length of railway from that shown in your Public Works map ? —No doubt to show a line to Grahamstown, when it was not shown in tho previous oue, implied that the railway was longer—that is to say, if it were taken to Hamilton. Ido not think it implies that the railway should be more than a given distance. It all depends upon the House. The whole thing was a proposal, and the map was intended to show what was proposed to be made. 246. Of course it was all subject to the vote of the House? —Yes. 246 a. Did any question arise last session as to whether the railway should terminate at Te Aroha or Grahamstown ?—Not that I am aware of. 247. Mr. McLean.] When a promise is made to the House that an exact copy of a map shall be placed on the table in some distinctive colours, in order that members may see at a glance where railways are going, do you think it is a proper thing to put a map on the table with different railways on it to those exhibited on the map of which a copy is asked for ?—I should think it would depend on the circumstances. I think the order has beeu literally complied with. [Mr. Richardson's question (No. 4, 3rd September, 1878) read.] That is literally complied with. 248. Mr. Rolleston.] This was not proposed in the Public Works Statement ? —Yes, it was. [Quotation from Public Works Statement read by Mr. Richardson.] No doubt that is a special survey, but it does not follow that more than thirty miles of railway need be made now. It is for the House to say whether the thirty miles shall be exceeded or not. [Report of Engineer of North Island produced.] That is correct. There appears to be only one survey to that extent. 219. Mr. McLean.] Suppose, now, I as a member stuck to your Public Works Statement, and suppose you were in my place, would you, as a member of tho House, be content to look at your Public AVorks Statement map, and be satisfied with that, without going to any other map that was ordered as a copy of it to be put on the table of the House in distinctive lines, to see whether it would bo altered ? —It would be very difficult to say what I might think if I were in your place. 250. Suppose you were a member of tho House and not in the Government, aud you saw a piece added to another map which was supposed to be a copy of the map attached to the Public AVorks Statement? —I am on my oath to give statements of fact, not suppositions. 251. Then, if Mr. Blackett swears that he brought tiiis map to you in accordanca with this question of the House, and you ordered him to add this thirty miles to Grahamstown r—lf he swears it ; I will believe it, but I have no recollection of it. Mr. J. Knowles, Under Secretary for Public AVorks, sworn and examined. 252. The Chairman.] You are Under Secretary for Public AVorks ?—I am.

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253. Do you recollect a request being made to the Government last session on a question by Mr. Richardson for a map showing in distinctive colours the proposed railways in the North Island ?—I am not aware that there was any formal request made. I have recorded no formal request. 254. AVill you endeavour to recollect how that matter came under your notice ? —There was no question sent. It is not an order of the House. 255. Then how did you get your instructions to furnish the map that was laid on the table in compliance with that request ? —J did not get any instructions to furnish it. It was prepared by the engineers, and given to me as usual to lay before the Minister, for him to submit to Parliament; and the map came into my hands in that way. 256. Can you not inform the Committee how the engineers got instructions to prepare this particular map for the House? —It might have been from me verbally ; but 1 believe they came from the Minister verbally. 257. AVhat would be the ordinary course taken ? AVould it be by the Minister to Mr. Blackett, and by Mr. Blackett to the draughtsman ? —That appears to have been the case in the present instance. 258. And it was all verbal instructions, not an order from the House, as there generally is? —Not an order from the House ; and you will see that is so by referring to the Order Paper of the 10th September, in which it states that these maps were laid on the table by leave of the House, not by order of the House. 259. In your capacity as Under-Secretary, what is the course you pursue when you see any question on the Notice Paper which involves the necessity of any answer, or the preparation of a plan ? —AYe always prepare the information for the Minister so as to enable him to give an answer. 260. Mr. Rolleston.] Without further instructions?— Yes; we preparo it as a matter of course. Every morning we look at the Order Paper and see what is to be dove. 261. The Chairman.] Then, when you heard the answer given, would it be part of your duty to see that the plan promised was prepared ? —The answers reported in the newspapers are generally so incorrect that we never rely on the words reported, but wait for the order of the House or direction of the Minister as the case may be, and then take action. The reports in the newspapers very often say exactly the opposite of what was actually stated. 262. Have you any particular recollection with regard to this plan that was laid on the table?— That plan was given to me some time on the 10th September, the day that it was laid on the table. I took it to the Minister, or sent it in with the covering-paper, as is usual, for him to lay ou the table of the House. 263. AVere you aware at that time that this showed a greater extent of railway than that upon the Public AVorks Statement? —I cannot tax my recollection. lam not responsible for that map, and should merely formally pass it on to the Minister for him to lay it on the table, the Engineer being responsible; but that map seemed to be such a useful one that, when it came to me, I directed the draughtsman to prepare a copy for myself, so that I might hang it up in the office for reference. 264. Is this the copy ?—No, it is hanging up in my room. It was prepared a day or two afterwards. I saw that it would be very useful, and directed the Chief Draughtsman to prepare one for me to hang up in my room. 265. Did it strike you at the time that this line of railway was extended down to Grahamstown, instead of terminating, as the Public AVorks map led the House to suppose, at Te Aroha?—No, it did not strike me so, because I knew it was the intention of the Government to carry the railway on to Grahamstown. That intention had passed through my hands as a matter of record some time previously. 266. Then, when the Public AVorks map was prepared and appended to the Statement, why did it not show the extension to Grahamstown, instead of terminating at Te Aroha ? —Because there was then no record to show that it was intended to go beyond Te Aroha, but between the date of the Statement aud the laying on the table of this map the records show that it was decided to carry the railway on to Grahamstown. I will read the telegrams on the subject:— " Grahamstown, 27th August, 1878. " Hon. James Macandrew, AVellington.—You are not clearly reported last night. Do you mean railw-ay from Grahamstowii to AVaikato ? Public anxious to know, therefore excuse troubling you. " L. Eheenfried, Acting Mayor." " Wellington, 28th August, 1878. "L. Ehrenfried, Acting Mayor, Grahamstown. —Intended railway is AVaikato to Grahamstown. " J. Macandeew." " Grahamstown, 29th August, 1878. " Hon. the Premier, AVellington.—l am instructed to forward to you resolutions passed unanimously at large public meeting to-night:— " Ist Resolution. —' That this meeting tenders its best thanks to Sir George Grey and his Government for having placed upon the Public AVorks Statement the line of railway from Grahamstown to Hamilton.' " 2nd Resolution.—' That, in presence of the depression now existing in many upon this field, and the great want of employment amongst the wages-earning population, and the distress consequent thereupon, the Government be most earnestly prayed to at once commence tho railway works from Grahamstown to Waikato.' " L. Eheenfeied, Deputy Mayor." " AVellington, 6th September, 1878. " L. Ehrenfried, Esq., Grahamstown.—No authority for making the railroad has yet been received from Parliament. AVhen it has been received, arrangements of various kinds will necessarily have to be made before the works can be commenced. " G. Geey." 267. The Chairman.] From these telegrams you have read to us, are you satisfied that this map, when laid on the table, would show the extension from Te Aroha to Grahamstown ? —I am satisfied of

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that in my own mind, and I will give you the reason why. Ido not know it from my own knowledge but I believe Mr. Blackett took this map in to the Minister on the morning of the 10th, in order to see whether it was correct. It was then only as far as Te Aroha, but the Minister told Mr. Blackett to carry the line from Te Aroha to Grahamstown. That was in the morning, and this map was laid on the table in the afternoon. That is the reason why lam satisfied that it would show that extension. 268. Were there any other communications between the Grahamstown people and the Government with regard to this railway during the session, or did the telegrams you have read contain all ?— There were several telegrams, but they were, I think, received immediately after the session. 269. Do you know whether the resolutions, in the telegram to the Premier, passed at Grahamstown, were published in the local papers there?—l do not know. 270. Can you recollect whether any telegraphic information appeared in the AVellington papers conveying information that a terminus was asked for at Grahamstown ? —No. 271. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] You have a heap of records here. I should like to know whether there is any record that this line was contemplated, or in any way promised to be made, between Te Aroha and Grahamstown by former Governments?— The first record in connection with this matter I have here appears to be dated February, 1878. That appears to be the foundation of these papers. 272. It has been stated here that this alteration was only put on tho map in carrying out promises made by previous Governments. Are you aware of any such pledges having been given, or of any such intention existing ? —I cannot answer that question off-hand. I should have to refer to documents. 273. Are you aware of the existence of any such documents ? —I am not. My reply to that, however, would be that I cannot say off-hand, but I will refer to the documents. I have brought all the papers relating to the question of the Grahamstown Railway, and I went through them last night. These are all tho papers with reference to this particular railway to Grahamstown. I could not be aware that questions would be put to me so far back as those promises, if any, would extend. 274. Mr. Rolleston.] AVhat was the statement that was read in the House offering an explanation of this matter ?—I said I thought it was very likely that Mr. Richardson had confounded the seeing of two maps. The original map was the one that was laid on the table by the Minister in connection with his Public Works Statement; and that shows the line from Hamilton to Te Aroha. This map goes further —from Te Aroha to Grahamstown. They are both the same lithographs, and I thought confusion might have arisen between them. 275. I cannot understand your argument. There are only two maps in the Appendix. One is the Public AVorks Statement map, and the other is this transfer, with cross-marks. Ido not understand the answer that was given to the House as compared with what you are now stating?— There are two maps. The first is the map in the Public Works Statement: that shows the line from Hamilton to Te Aroha. Then there is another map, which is this map, and it shows the line from Hamilton to Grahamstown. 276. How could Mr. Richardson be confusing this map? He must have known all about this map, because it was at his instance that it was put on the table aud ordered to be printed.—l do not know what was said in the House. I only go by what the newspapers said. They said he supposed the map was altered, and, knowing the map had not been altered, I thought it was very likely that he had confused the two maps in his mind. 277. Mr. Pyke (pointing to map of Public AVorks Statement, 1878).] The map which Mr. Richardson asked should be laid on the table with the lines marked in distinctive colours—was it this map or the one with the alterations ?—lt was this map with the red lines nut on to it. 278. That alteration?— Yes. 279. Mr. Rolleston.] Has it not occurred to you that Mr. Richardson had good reason for raising a question in the House when, as appears from your evidence, an alteration had been made? —Before I wrote that memorandum I had inquired into tho circumstances and had satisfied myself that Mr. Richardson was under a mistake, and therefore I endeavoured to account to the Minister for what I considered as likely to be the cause of the mistake. 280. But was the obvious explanation not that Mr. Richardson had every reason, when he saw the map he had asked for was not there, to ask how the addition was made ? You made no allusion in your memorandum to the addition ? —The addition was not put on after the map was placed on the table, so far as I know. Ido not say the map laid on the table last year was what Mr. Richardson asked for: that was not what my memorandum went to show. I had nothing to do with whether this map was or was not what Mr. Richardson asked for. I had only to explain that this is the map that was then laid on the table. 281. But did not your memorandum contain a phrase like this : " Mr. Richardson appears to be under a misapprehension with regard to the two maps " ? AVould not the proper explanation have been : " Mr. Richardson appears to have beeu led into a mistake because of the addition that was made in excess of what he asked for " ?—You see I had nothing to do with the question of what map Mr. Richardson last year asked for. All I had to do was to explain to the Minister how it was that Mr. Richardson conceived there was any discrepancy in these maps. I made inquiries of various officers as to whether there was any discrepancy between the map as published and the map as laid on the table. Finding that there was no discrepancy between the map as laid on the table and as it exists now, I endeavoured to account for what appeared to me to be the misapprehension under which Mr. Richardson was labouring. 282. Mr. McLean.] I suppose you did your best to shield your political chief?—No, Sir, I did not; but I felt that the honor of the department was at stake, and that if there was any tampering with the map, the blame would rest on tho department. Ido not know that the blame would fall upon the chief; it would fall upon the officers. 282. Mr. Rolleston.] But do you not think the placing upon the table a map with an additional thirty miles of railway upon it, not alluded to in the Public AVorks Statement, was liable to mislead the House, when the map was ordered to be a copy of the map in the Public AVorks Statement, only in distinctive colours ? —I do not know that I can answer a question of that kind. All I can say is that it did not mislead myself, because I knew by the records that the Government contemplated

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extending that lino from Te Aroha to Grahamstown. Therefore, when it came to me showing the line to Grahamstown, I regarded it as a matter of course. 284. But do you not think it is the business of a permanent head of a department, if any change is made, to draw the attention of the House to that change—for instance, that this line was added since the plan was asked for ? —I think that is the duty of the Minister. 285. Was the Minister's attention called to the fact, so far as you know, that there was a change in the map from what was intended by Mr. Richardson's question ?—Mr. Richardson's question, not being an order of the House, did not come before me at all. This map was not prepared in reply to Mr. Richardson's question. It was prepared by direction of the Minister, for tho information of the House. I have already stated the fact that, ou the morning of the day on which the map was presented to the House, Mr. Macandrew's attention was called to it by the Engineer in Charge. It then only showed the red line to Te Aroha, and tho line from Te Aroha to Grahamstown was put in subsequently, but before the map was given to the Minister to put on the table. 256. Mr, McLean^] If you, Mr. Knowles, instead of the explanation you have given, had stated that the map which is coloured red on the table was not a copy of the map attached to the Public AVorks Statement, but was afterwards an extension of that, and not in compliance with the order of the House, that would have been au exact statement of what it is? —The memorandum to the Minister was not written with a view to the information of the House; it was with a view to the information of the Minister. 287. Do you not know that all the memoranda you write affecting such serious matters as this are for the purpose of informing the House ? —Not always ; but if I had known this one would have been read to the House I do not know that I should have altered it. 288. You would not have drawn the attention of the Minister to the fact that this map was not a copy of the one ordered by the House —that there was au addition of thirty miles made to it after the order was made ? Do you not think that would be a proper explanation of it ?—No ; I cannot say that would have been the explanation. 288 a. Did you not make that memorandum of your own accord, when you saw the report of the question of Mr. Richardson in the House, in order to enable the Minister to explain?— The mornin» after this matter occurred in the House the Minister sent for me and said, "There is a statement made in the House about tampering with a map. Do you know anything about it ? " I replied, " I saw that something took place in the House, by the paper this morning, aud immediately I saw it I made inquiries;" and then I mentioned to him, verbally, what I have said here to-day to the Committee— namely, that the inquiries I had instituted showed the addition was made on the morning of the day, the plan being laid on the table in the afternoon. I said, " I think Mr. Richardson has made a mistake, aud where he has made that mistake is so and so " —just what I have stated. I then put it down in black and white. 289. AVhy did you not state that this line was put on after the map was made to the order of the House ? —I did explain that to the Minister. 290. Verbally, but not in writing ?—\ Terbally, because he knew all about it. I think it would bo as well, as there seems to be some misunderstanding, to mention the reply of Mr. Macandrew. He said, "I was sure there was some mistake, because Mr. Richardson is generally so clear." 291. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] Look at that map : does it not appear that the line has been laid on at different times ? —lt has been laid on at different times. 292. Mr. McLean.] \Arould you, without any interference from a Minister, have placed that map upon the table as a copy of the Public AVorks Statement map ? —No, certainly not; because it was not the Public AVorks Statement map. 293. And then you would have considered it necessary to point out that there was au addition of thirty miles of railway on that map that was not on the Public AVorks Statement map ? —I should have felt it my duty to have done that. I have already stated the addition was made in the morning by the Engiueer in Charge, on direction from the Minister. 291. Mr. Rolleston.] Do you think a public officer is justified in writing upon an office map that it complies with a question when it does not comply with it? This map says, " Map prepared in reply to question ;" and your evidence shows it docs not comply with tho question. Do you think a public officer is justified in doing that ? —-The map iv reply to the question was prepared and submitted to the Minister on the morning of the day on which it was laid on the table. The Minister directed that the line should be continued from Te Aroha to the Thames. 295. If the map was modified in accordance with the instructions, should not a statement that the ma]) that was prepared in reply to the question of the 3rd September had been so modified, have been made thereon ? —lf it had been prepared in reply to an order of tho Houso there can be no doubt but that a note should have been placed on it calling attention to the addition ; but, when a Minister agrees to comply with a request, we do not always furnish exactly what the member's question asked for, the Minister often saying that the member wants only some particular information, aud we then draw out the reply in accordance with the direction of the Minister. 296. Mr. McLean.] Is it not usual, when such an important alteration is made by a Minister, that the chief officer should protect himself by pointing out to the Minister by memorandum that it is not in accordance with the question of the House ? If there was an addition of thirty miles to a railway map, would you make a memorandum of that for the Minister ?—These maps were prepared by the Engineer in Charge, who pointed out to tho Minister, on the morning before they were laid on the table, that this line only went as far as Te Aroha. He called the Minister's attention to that, and the Minister directed him to extend the line on the map from Te Aroha to Grahamstown. 297. But Mr. Blackett now puts it quite in the opposite direction. He says he prepared the map in accordance with the question of the House, that it was sent through you in to the Minister, and that the Minister then sent for him, and ordered him to extend that line from Te Aroha to the Thames on the map. That is different from the way you put it. AVhat reason would Mr. Blackett have for pointing out to the Minister that he had put on thirty miles of railway in addition to that ordered by the House ?—I beg your pardon ; I have never said that. Ido not suppose that Mr. Blackett pointed out that he had put on thirty miles.

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298. You said, tho last time you answered the question, that Mr. Blackett pointed out to Mr. Macandrcw that it went only as far as Te Aroha ?—Yes. 299. "While in the evidence of Mr. Blackett he says that the map was prepared iv accordance with the question of the House, and that, when it went to Mr. Macandrew for approval, he sent for Mr. Blackett and ordered thirty miles to be put on? —My reply to that is that what I state on that point is only hearsay. Mr. Blackett is more likely to be correct. 300. Mr. Pyke.] AVhen this map was prepared in accordance with tho question of Mr. Bichardson, was it presented to the Minister showing the line only as far as Te A roha ?—Yes. 301. And, subsequently, it was ordered that the extension should be shown to Grahamstown ?— Yes. 302. And the alteration was made distinctly by the Minister's order ? —Yes. 303. Then the map, as first prepared, was in accordance with the question ?—Yes. 304. Hon. Mr. Richardson.] AVould Mr. Knowles state what contracts there are on that line ?— There are two contracts for sleepers—one for 5,000 sleepers, £947; another for 10,000 sleepers, £12,083. There are two works contracts—one called tho Shortland contract, £8,393; and the Grahamstown contract, £7,535: total, £28,961. There is also an order for rolling-stock which has gone Home; and we shall have to charge it to some vote. Tho amount is £27,000. 305. Then there is £28,961 incurred already, and £27,000 for rolling-stock, while there is a voie of £30,000 only ?—Yes. 306. AVhat is the amount provided for this railway ?—£30,000. That was the vote for the year ending 30th June last. 307. Mr. McLean.] Do you understand, Mr. Knowles, that the £30,000 was voted for this line, or only for the line in accordance with the Public Works Statement—namely, from Hamilton to Te Aroha ?—The vote is " AVaikato to Thames." 30S. Did you consider that vote was for tho line already surveyed ? —The vote was for Waikato to the Thames. I have nothing to do with what the interpretation of " Thames " may be. 309. AVas not the line mentioned in tho Public AVorks Statement as " AVaikato to Thames " the line described in tho Appendix to the Survey as "Hamilton to Te Aroha"? —So far as any record shows, it was. Ido not know what was in the Minister's mind. 310. Mr. Rolleston.] At what place are those sleepers contracted for? —I did not put the residence of the contractor down on my notes. 311. AVas it by public tender ? —Yes. 312. The Chairman.] A\ rithin the colony ?—Yes. The witness was thanked for his attendance, and withdrew. Hon. E. Bichaedson, M.H.8., sworn and examined. 313. The Chairman.] It was at your request that this map was prepared and furnished to the House ? —Yes. 314. Did you carefully examine the map of the North Island railways when it was laid on the table of tho House, to ascertain whether or not it gave the information that you sought ?—I examined both the maps of the North and South Islands. To speak professionally, the word " carefully" is a wide term ; but I examined the map for the purpose of general comparison. 315. Did you then observe that this proposed Thames Eailway, instead of terminating at Te Aroha, was shown as terminating at Grahamstown ? —I do not remember that I observed anything particular about it further than the general features. 316. If you had detected any alteration then, would you have felt it your duty to draw the attention of the House to it ? —Most decidedly ; and for a very good reason. 317. AVhen did you discover that this alteration from Te Aroha to Grahamstown was on tho map ? —When I called at the office and saw the original record. 318. Not until this session ? —No. 319. Mr. McLean.] When you asked that question of the Minister for Public AVorks, tho map that you wanted made was an exact copy of the Public Works Statement, but in distinctive colours ?— Exactly so ; and the question was clearly worded iv order that there should be no possible mistake, and to pin the Government to what they intended to do.

APPENDIX. Documents handed in by Majoe Campbell, 25th July, ] 579\ No. 1. Major Campbell. TnE Hon. Mr. Richardson brought under my notice, when in the chair yesterday, a matter relating to a plan laid on the table last session, showing proposed lines of railway in the iS;orth Island. The impression conveyed to my mind by Mr. Bichardson was, that tho plan when laid on the table only showed the line of the Thames Bail way as running from Hamilton to Te Aroha, whereas it now shows it as running from Hamilton to Grahamstown. Let me know when the plan was laid on the table, what dealings took place with it while in your custody, and when it left your custody; also any other particulars connected with this matter that, in making inquiry on the subject, you may become cognizant of. G. Maueice O'Eoeke, 23rd July, 1879. Speaker.

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No. 2. Mr. Speaker. The map referred to was laid on the table of the House on the 10th September last, and ordered to be printed on the 20th October, but was not sent to the Printer until after the close of the session. It was believed in my office that the map, with other papers, had been returned by the Printer, but, on the Hon. Mr. Richardson asking for it, it was found that only the cover in which it had been enclosed had been returned, and on search being made it was found that it had been detained at the printing office. On receiving your instructions as above, I addressed a memorandum to tho Government Printer a copy of which I enclose, together with his reply. I am unable to add anything of my own knowledge in reference to this inquiry. F. E. Campbell, Clerk, House of Representatives.

No. 3. Mr. Didsbury. The Hon. Mr. Richardson yesterday, in the House, drew the Speaker's attention to an alteration that he believes to have been made in a map that was laid on the table last session, showing the lines of railway proposed to be constructed in the North Islaud. The Speaker has directed me to make inquiry into the matter, and I have therefore to request you to be good enough to repeat what you told me yesterday iii relation thereto ; and to furnish any other information on the subject that you may be able to give, as to when it went into and left your custody, and through whose hands it may have passed while being lithographed. F. E. Campbell, 23rd July, 1879. Clerk, House of Representatives.

No. 4. Sir, — Government Printing Office, AVellington, 23rd July, 1879. The two maps showing the lines of railway authorized and proposed to be constructed were, shortly after you sent them to me, handed to Mr. McColl, of the Lithographic Department, to be lithographed. That branch not being under me now, I made no arrangements as to who should perform the draughtsman's work, but from what I caii learn, the lines were plotted in by Mr. Koch, who I would suggest should be communicated with. He aud the Chief Draughtsman of the Public Works Department are in a position to give all the information you require. I have no record of the date when the maps were received from you. They were, however, handed to the lithographer shortly after they came down. The original was never returned to me until I applied to the Lithographic Department for it the other day. I have, &c, George Didsbuey, The Clerk, House of Representatives. Government Printer.

No. 5. Hon. Mr. Macandrew. Wellington, 23rd July, 1879. The maps showiug railways already authorized by Parliament, and those now proposed, laid on the table of the House of Representatives on 10th September last, have not been altered, and are similar to the copies made about the same time for the guidance of the Engineer in Charge, North Islaud, and myself, respectively. During the recess, say about last February, Mr. Didsbury, Government Printer, sent the maps over to be transferred to the stone, which was accordingly done by one of the draughtsmen. No alteration was made in the maps themselves. Mr. Didsbury received them from the officers of the House. AVhere, I think, the Hon. Mr. Bichardson has fallen into an error is in that he is confounding the above maps with those attached to your Public AVorks Statement made in August. The North Island map attached thereto shows a line of railway between Hamilton and Te Aroha only, while the map afterwards laid before the House showed the line continued to Grahamstown. The maps are from the same block, and have very much the same appearance. I have, &c, John Knowles, Under Secretary, Public Works.

No. G. Memorandum handed in by Mr. Otterson on 2oth July, 1879. The paper referred to was laid upon the table on the 10th September, 1878, and was on the 20th October ordered to be printed by the Printing Committee. All members have access to the papers on the table of the House at all hours, and papers are frequently temporarily removed. About a week after the close of last session I collected aU the manuscript papers on the table ordered to be printed, and deposited them in Major Campbell's office for him to letter and number and send to the Printer. The map in question was, I understand, sent down without a letter or number, it bein" the custom for the Under Secretary for Public Works to number all Public AVorks papers. The covering sheet only was returned to me, aud iv putting away the papers a few weeks ago I did not notice that the enclosures were not attached.

By Authority: Geobge Didsbury, Government Printer, Wellington.—lB79.

Price 9d.]

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