THE PREMIER AT THE THAMES

Western Star, Issue 278, 4 January 1879, Page 2 (Supplement)

THE PREMIER AT THE THAMES

The following are the principal farts of the speech Sir George Grey delivered to his constituents at the Thames on Saturday, the 21st inst.:—

■" THE HAND QUESTION. Irately a cry has been raised in several parts of New Zealand about the land being unfairly .dealt with. You are told that you are not ’to consider whether some people have rights given to them which are not given to the public at large. If they get the land they improve it, and spend money. To that I answer—you ought not to be led astray by an argument of that kind. People who argue in that way are to the country. It means that no law exists. If you reason in that way—that we can break existing law because afterwards we can make a law to render the infraction of a law lawful —that means simply there is no law, that those v- ho are in power do exactly what they like. I say that it is impossible _ for any Government to break the law to give individuals lands which they are not entitled to —by the infraction to give them what no other person can get. it is impossible to do that without doing a wrong to the whole community; do a wrong to themselves by training themselves to break the law. But they go on to tell you, “Oh, it is a very beneficial thing for you that we give some gentlemen a large tract of land, because they spend great sums of money in improving it.” I say that the money with which they improve it is not their own money, but it is your money.—(Cheers). Consider this—to give a man a large tract of laud of that kind, or to give a body of men a large tract of land, is to enable them indirectly to tax yon to an enormous amount. This is rather a subtle point, but I will endeavor to make it plain to you. Suppose they gave me 100,000 acres of land for a nominal consideration to make a farm. Everyone of you knows that the value of the farm depends upon the facilities for getting the produce to market, and the means of eommunication. If, therefore, I give a man the power of determining whether roads., are to be made through that land or not, I give him the power of taxing everyone of his neighbors about him. It is literally to give one individual the power of taxing all his fellows and neighbors. Another result of allowing people to acquire these great tracts ®f land in New Zealand is this : That by a law peculiar to this Colony it is enacted that a man in proportion to his property in a country or in a riding is allowed to have five votes or one—that is, a man with the

smallest amount of property can Lave but one vote, while a man with a large amount of property in a riding can have five votes, and it is quite possible for him to have under this law forty-five votes as against the one vote which most of his neighbors have. You will therefore see that the votes are not given in such circumstances to human beings, but to acres ; that the voters are in point of fact the areas of land, and not human beings. According to my view the fair thing would be this, that the owners of property in the district should have the power of saying, “we desire that our property should be taxed at so much percent., a certain rate per acre to be put on, and I contend that the majority of people in a district should be competent to determine the amount of rate that should be put upon every acre of land in the district. —{Cheers ) THE ELECTORAL BILL. My conduct in this matter has been a good deal jmpugned ; you must judge whether 1 I wasright.or not. I jun_mi my trial as it f wore, before you. The Biutiiat the Gov- | eminent brought in was all that we believed 1 we could carry. All other points we thought we might carry by the aid of our friends, but we were obliged to bring a Bill in without attempting to interfere with the plural . voting. We felt certain that we could not 1 as a Ministry carry any attempt on that through the House. Under such circumstances we considered it best to get all we j could. I felt certain in my own mind that ' I should not be allowed an appeal to the j country if I asked for it. One of our friends brought in a proposal for doing away with j plural voting, and endeavored to get that , carried, but it was lost. You are aware that I am in favor of triennial Parliaments, i and the Ministry not having the caprice of 1 dissolution, the whole affair rests in the power of the Governor for the time being, j It was quite uncertain, as one Governor j might grant it and another refuse it, I I thought that if the people returned bad representatives, it was too great a punishment , to have had men returned for five years. Surely it was reasonable enough to ask that ' the time should be reduced to three years. I | was quite willing to submit to that test, and I j did my best to see that the measure passed, but it was rejected, as you are aware. The constitution-of the country gave the Natives exactly the same rights of voting as the European. That has prevailed for some | time. Many years ago the Legislature seeing the bulk of the Natives resided in districts where there were no polling places, it was said they had no franchise at all. Therefore they said we will allow four Native members to be elected, and for those districts, and they elected four members according!}". I have no hesitation in saying, and no one will deny, that in many instances, when members were in danger they affected an escape by holding these four members well in hand.— (Laughter.) The whole thing was an admirable plan; they thought they would take even this weapon off your hands, but at all events this was a device which they were ready to use on their own behalf in this Electoral Bill, the object of which was to

give fresh privileges to every one of her i Majesty’s subjects in New Zealand—that is, in fact, universal suffrage. When it came to the Upper House they struck out the power of voting altogether, except in respect ; of those four Native members they left , those four in. Then the Act went on to say ! that all Natives whose names were on the ' roll as ratepayers should have the power to j vote for a member if they had paid their ' rates, and that all Europeans who were rate- . payers should have the power of voting j whether they paid their rates or not.— ■ (Laughter.) Myself and some friends in the Legislative Council were determined not to submit to it. They put in these words—- “ Every male subject of her Majesty in New Zealand, being twenty-one years of age, and not being a Maori, shall have a vote.” j Well, that was accompanied with the statement made in the Upper House that the Natives had assisted to pass the land tax, and ought not to be allowed to do such a thing again. I was very much in favor of the land tax myself, and I believe the Natives did their duty to the country in getting that Act passed. I conceived they ought not to be punished for doing that. The Legislative Council sent the Bill back to us in that way. Seeing that they had interfered with our privileges, I contended that the nominated body ought not to have interfered with'the House of Representatives on a question as to how the representatives of the people in that House were elected. Clearly the representatives of the people had a right to decide that question for themselves, and that those who were not elected by the people at all ought to have had the delicacy not to have interfered with a question of the kind. Therefore, I said to myself, I now believe in the propriety of doing away with plurality of voting. I believe in triennial Parliaments, I believe it t* be quite possible the Upper House may want remodelling in some way. They have gives

<n« an excellent example of how they will be prepared to act, and. did not hesitate therasdrw to' interfere.'with a privilege of the Lower House. I thought what is good for the gooee is good for the gander.—(Laughter.) The guage has been thrown down, and I determined, therefore, in my own mind not to accept the amendment so far as I was concerned, When they sent it back to us, I found that the majority of the representatives agreed with me, I believe that the result will be that this next year there will he an infinitely better Reform Bill, and that we will get it in time for the new elections. We shall sea that the country is divided into fair representative districts, that there shall be no more pocket boroughs.—(Cheers.) We are determined that population shall carry representation with it, and we believe that we will get a Reform Bill which shall do away with plurality of voting, and that probably we shall have triennial Parliaments, in which we shall have a fair representation of the people throughout the whole of New Zealand. We feel confident that if we do not carry that we will have to appeal to the people themselves. I think you are with me in favor of triennial Parliaments, and that yon will support me in the endeavor to have the representation adjusted in proper* 1 tion to population. You will have the opportunity of showing whether you like these things or Hot. If you do not like thego | things, then I shall lie by in the. prospect of i a better time, and wait for a constituency that will like them. I THK INCIDENCE OF TAXATION.' i You will probably understand from what I ! have said how the land tax shall be'levied, : but objection is made to us. by those who say ; “what we want is a property tax,” but that i don’t suit our views at present at all. I have no objection to a property tax by-and-bye, if it shall be necessary to raise money in that way. Let us try the result of the land tax first. I quite agree that in the case of those i who live outside of New Zealand and derive ' great fortunes from the Colony only to spend them elsewhere, , it might be necessary to proposeaomeincometax to meet their case. I will ; get at them’if lam left in power, and if it be 1 possible to do so.—(Cheers.) Whether I am in power or not, I will aid you all I can and get at that class of people, but in the mean--1 time let those who hold immense properties in this country contribute to the revenue in i proportion to their means. That will touch a good many people. A large number of people who derive income from runs will be got at. There is a large number of persons who hold investments in public companies that will be got at. The whole of this - matter is entirely in your hands. We have given you a great machine, and it will be for you to use that \ machine precisely as you wish. . If you want to raise a greater amount of revenue you can do so, but you should always do it in a way that is perfectly fair. I think you will admit yourselves that the tax we have adopted is a fair one to all classes of people. Then this other objection was made. It was said “ Oh, i you have not taken enough burthen off the people. Wby do you not take more off at once?” The’anawer to this is, “We want to see what the land tax will bring in. We have taken off half the duty on sugar, and it would be very easy to take the other half off. We will gladly do so when the right time comes. We have taken 2d in the pound , off tea, and we will be delighted to take off the other 4d when we see what will be the result of the new tax. The moment we know what the land really does yield, we will unhesitatingly do our very best to remove the whole of these burthens from the public, under which they ought not to suffer. You will-se«« that you are entitled to a further reduction of the duty upon tea and sugar, upon both those articles of necessary consumption. —(Cheers.) We were obliged to deal cautiously. with every one of these questions. Under circumstances, which I have already told you, we were not certain of a dissolution, and an appeal to yourselves. Now if next session a dissolution ’ necessarily takes place upon a conflict upon these subi jects, the power rests with yourselves—you I become the legislators for the time. We I shall lay down a programme touching on i these points, and if it is necessary to appeal i to you, you will vote as you think right 1 upon thesi points. You will become the ! General Legislature for the time being. | You now understand what I mean on that point.—(Cheers.)

| COLONIAL TITLES. ; There is a matter which I feel will agitate ! the Assembly during next session. You well know this —you will have to determine (and this is at present unknown to the Colony, this is the first time it ■will become public) ! this question, and it will be for yourselves j to deal with it. It is this—ls an aristocracy, I a titled aristocracy peculiar to New Zealand, I to be set up in this country, or is it not ? (“ No, no.”) Very well, that is what I want to know. I intend, to resist it to the utmost. I —(Cheers). On that point I have never ! deceived you. I believe you knew when you 1 returned me that those were my sentiments. Now the Crown determines in New Zealand, acting with and by the advice of its Ministers, without the knowledge of the Assembly, put up in Now Zealand a new order of aristocracy—an order of aristocracy of a very peculiar kind. It was to be a life aristocracy, and they were to be called “ honorable ” for life, and were only to bear their title within the limits of New Zealand. It would not have been of much consequence ; but if the Crown can create an order of nobility, it may create any other order. It sent out instructions to us to promulgate a general order in the ‘ New Zealand Gazette ’ that the judges in New Zealand, when they retired from office, were to he always •‘Honorable” for life under this singular order of aristocracy. I said, “ I cannot put that in the * Gazette ’; you have no power to order me to do so.”—(Cheers), Well, that has been amended, and they say now : j “Well, we think you are right about the j ‘New Zealand Gazette.’ We are going to consider the thing, and we will put it in the 4 London Gazette ’ for the future; but the Queen claims the right to do this, and we intend to carry it out,” To that I answer distinctly that the Queen has no right, and I tell you as a reason that she- cannot do it | in England, and there is an additional reason why she cannot do it in New Zealand. I It is only by a law passed by the Legislature of New Zealand that the power can he 1 exercised by the Queen. Then I used 1 another argument, I said “Well now, sup- j posing that you have the power to do this, ! though I do not admit it, I say that it | would be an act of generosity to the people j of New Zealand to consult them on the subject, If we create a separate aristocracy in ' New Zealand, it will tend to lead to the : separation of New Zealand from the Mother ! Country. It is impossible to set up a new [ title in part of the empire which is not recognised elsewhere—it is in fact, to make it a separate portion of the empire altogether, and the people of New Zealand have a dislike to such a thing being done. Why not act generously towards them ? why not say, although we claim the power, we will not force it, unless the representatives in the General Assembly address the Crown, asking the Crown to do it.” We know the Queen takes an interest in those matters. It would be a generous and fair thing to her subjects in New Zealand that this thing should be done by their consent and by their choice, I have no hesitation in stating my perfect confidence and conviction that they have no power to force an aristocracy upon the people of this country, and therefore I for one, refuse to

submit to it. I intend to take care, by every fair and just means, that nothing of the kind is. established in this country. —• (Cheers.) I feel perfectly satisfied that ; tho moment the Home Government find that such a stand is taken, they will give way. If the majority of the people of this Colony do not go with me in this matter, and if they choose to give this power to the Crown, wo can do nothing but protest. I shall protest and do my Dost against it.-—(Cries of “ We’ll go against it!“) That remains to be seen ; but I believe firmly that the people will go against it. That is one of the burning questions that will have to come on for discussion during the next session of Parliament. ELECTIVE GOVERNORS. My firm conviction is *hat the people of this Colony have the right to pass a law deciding the manner in which our Governor shall be nominated, I have always held that opinion. I have maintained that they had the right, and and that it was a right inherent in this Constitution. That was disputed. The Colonial Department at Home have, come to their senses upon that point, as we have been informed they admit that the Colony has the power by law of determining who their Governor shall be.—(Cheers.) The Queen has the power of refusing her assent to that Act if she thinks fit; bat you have the power to determine the manner in which the Governor shall be nominated. As to the particular manner of doing, I do not go into that, but it is a very great thing that you should know that the power rests in your own hands to be exercised by you as you please. That power has now been conceded to you.

THE POWERS OF THE JUDGE*. This subject came before the House last session, and upon inquiry we found that the Judges also held that they had the right to commit a man for contempt of Court; that they had the right to shut him up in prison, and that the Crown had not not the right to let him out. I wished myself to restrain the power of the Judges; I thought sufficient power ought to be left in their hands to commit any person for contempt of Court, but thought the time for which they could be committed should be settled—that the extreme time should be settled. I thought there should be a power of appeal in case the Judge had .acted in a hasty manner. I thought with regard to the Press the power ought to be still more limited, and I will explain the reason why to you. It was claimed in cases of contempt that the Judges had witnessed the contempt, that they heard the tones of voice that accompanied the act, that they had seen the gestures which the person used, and that all those things must -be taken into consideration in deciding the punishment; therefore it was contended that the power ought to be absolutely left in the hands of the Judges, and that there should be no trial by jury in such cases. I argued that in regard to the Press none of those arguments could apply. The man did not issue the newspaper in Court, nor did he shake his fist in the Judge’s face when he wrote the article ,* therefore I say that if an article is complained of as being a contempt of Court, or being libellous, that there should be a prosecution, and that it should be left

to a jury to determine exactly wnat punisn- ! ment should be inflicted. The result of the discussion that took place on this subject • was that the majority in the House decided that the Judges should not be interfered ; with ; and I confess myself that I thought I the majority were wrong. . I do not consider I that this is a case for an appeal to the conj stituencies; it is a case for the growth of ! public opinion. I am certain that the : Judges do not possess the power of imprisoning for life which they claim. I believe that I will have the support of my constituents in doing my best to remedy what I believe to be a great public evil. —(Cheers.) | conclusion-. j Let me close by using the last words which I uttered in the House of Representatives. 1 I said this: That in New Zealand is the j noblest of clay existing, and that ready to j the hand of the potter. I pointed out that i the original immigrants were chosen with the 1 greatest care, that they came out in the ( prime of life ; that they were men of good ' character, of good health, free from vice, • who had families, and. that the young men of the higher ranks, who came out here, were , some of them of distinguished families in England, that the flower of some of the ' other Colonies flocked, here, believing there was a great opening in New Zealand for such a class of immigrants. I said that here is the noblest clay ready to the hand of the potter that there may bo fashioned one of ■Mi/-. minn4-nn4- nvirl V./-.CI+- Ml O+■ flin Ttriwl A

has ever seen. I said that this noble clay will not be moulded by the unskilful potter ; it will not be moulded in a shape which will create misery and destitution in millions hereafter to come. I will see that in justice to itself, and any Government that attempts to pass laws of an unfair kind, creating these class distinctions that I spoke of, creating those vast inequalities of property, giving favors to certain individuals over others, 1 s iy such a Government, and such a system is rotten, and if attempted to be enforced cannot exist for a day. I say that the clay is truly noble, the clay will be moulded into another shape; those potters who try to act otherwise will find that the whole population of New Zealand will cry out, “Away with you; we will be moulded by no such potters as you are.”—(Loud Applause.) Mr J. Beown moved, and Mr Gkaham seconded the following resolution : —“ That this meeting cordially thanks the Hon. Sir George Grey for his admirable address, and now reiterates the feeling of confidence so frequently expressed by the people of this district in him as their representative in the New Zealand Parliament ” —which was carried.