PARLIAMENTARY

Thames Advertiser, Volume VIII, Issue 2131, 26 August 1875, Page 4

PARLIAMENTARY

(per mess agency.) HOUSE OF EEPBEBENTATIVES. ABOLITION PBBATE, ' Wellington, Tuesday. • Mr Macandrcw failed toseo what boaring the early history of the colony, before tho Constitution was granted, had to do with tho. question, and notwithstanding all that hon. -gentleman said with regard to Auckland, he had not said a word to show why Otago should be abolished. The hon. gentleman said ho treated with the utmost contempt the insinuations of ruerconary motives thrown out against himself and others because of their effort to prevent a march boing stolen upon the people. For. his own part, ho believed that under the proposed change the probability was that he would be offered a very. much more securo appointment than that he now held. While admitting that tho country was groaning under the burden of being over-govcrned, iitid that a #hango was necessary, he objected to tho mode of proceduro. Ho held that the General Government should first endeavour to improve themselves. It was perfectly marvellous to him how Provincialism managed to 'keep ' itself above water so long, considering, the dead set always made- against it. The General Government had usurped the. proper business of Provincial Governments, andthe hon. member for Timaru had persistently done his utmost to make Provincialism stink' in the nostrils of the people.' If the .Government' had brought down a measure to abolish the whole of tho General Government he would have.given them cordial support.. Ho doubted tho cconomy to be efleeted by the bill. No central legislature could possibly administer affairs so economically as Provincial Councils. Tho representatives of 'Otago in tho Council were quite as able to deal with general questions of policy as that House, and at any rate there was not a man of them who did nothave a better comprehension of the business of the province than the House had of the business of the country, He thought the people of the country would commit a gricvoils error if they allowed such spoliation as the-bill proposed, and he had yet to learn that the pcop'a of the South were prepared to allow their land fund to be swopt' away, for that was practically what it amounted to. (No, no, from Ministers.) No other construction could possibly ho put upon the measure, and the people would find whoa too late that their land fiind was swept into the vortex of colonial finance, with disaster at .the bottom of it. He was perfectly unable to comprohend the suicidal 'action of the Southern members who supported this bill. Admitting for argument sake that some saving would bo. effected in tho cost of administration it would bo as dust in tho balanco compared with the evils which would result out of the change of the control of the waste lands of the colony.- What would become of the education and other endowments in Otago ? They would be vested in the hands of tho Governor, but the very next step would be to hand • them over to tho colony for its needs, for the day would soon come when its needs would be very great. They had been told that the people cried out for the change, but that cry came only from a fow hungry municipalities. Touching the goldficlds, while admitting that perhaps tlioir wants had not been attended to as'

they might haw been, he felt certain that the diggers would yet find that if Provincialism chastised them with whips, Centralism would chastiso them with In tho matter of police, he thought it would :bo moat, unwiso to them from the local control of provincial authorities. Ho feared that the authors of this change were in ignorance of tho efficiency of tho institutions they were about to displace,' As far as Otago was concerned, the general administration of its affairs would, compare favourably with that of tho General Government, but ho could not help thinking that the Treasurer looked at Otago thjough tho optics of Taranaki, Many of the arguments used iu favour of Abolition wero about as convincing as tho one which said that because the Government of Amorica was a scandal therefore Otago should be abolished. It was,a scandal that Auckland should bo starving and tho General Government rolling in wealth. If there were any Auckland members prepared to go infor communism, and to plungo their hands into the pockets of the South he was proud to seo that the people of Auckland did not endorse such sentiments, and he hoped next year Auckland would send down a phalanx of members pledged to obtain the management of their own affairs, and to have tho affairs of the colony placed on an equitable basis as between North and South. He .regretted that tho slate of financial intoxication which prevailed in the colony now engendered a culpable apathy in tho people, but he hoped and believed they would soon rouso themselves as becamo Englishmen, to resist such a deprivation of their recognised rights and privileges. Ho would tell hon. members on that bench that by forcing that measure through this session they wero sapping the foundations of the loyalty of tho people, and taking a stop every true patriot must deplore. They wero told that the voice of the people was for the change, but why not allow the ballot-box to declaro it? That was the only proper test. ]f they were not afraid that tho people were agaiust' them tjiey would appeal to tho ballot-box. It was not Abolition that tho country wanted. They wanted reform a good deal more, and that reform should be begun by the General Government with regard to their own administration.

Mr Bryco replied to Mr Macandrew's complaint regarding the imputations upon too provincial servants. He said if such imputations -were mado, it was extreme provocation from the other side, a sample of which was by the member for .the Hutt, telling them the House stank with corruption, 'J ho fact was, that the Government supporters actod with great forboaranco under the circumstances. Passing over tho remarkable self-asser-tion of the supporters of Provincialism, for in their own minds they were all heaven-born statesmen, lie would notice tuo statement that.tho educational reserves of Otagb would pass into the hands of the Governor. Tho member for Port Chalmers could not have been in tho Houso fit tho time when the Government, in replying to Mr Wales, gave an assuranco that these trusts would be carefully protected to tho province. The hon. member for the Hutt' stigmatised tjie principle of subsidising road boards out of tbo consolidated fund as vicious in the oxtreme, and yet, when tho Local L'oad Board Bill of 1867 was bofore tho House, n&no were greater advocates of it than the member for tho Hutt, and yet that bill proposed to subsidise road boards out of the consolidated fund. Tho hon. merabor for tho Hutt saw in ancient Greece an illustration of the greatness begottoa- of provincial institutions, but he stopped short exactly whore it suited his argumont. If he hud followed tho parallel a little further, ho must have admitted that all tho civilisation and greatness that belonged to her, and that all her patriots and great men wero unable to prevent her downfall, in tho absence of a feeling of national unity. Ho was equally unfortunato in iiis other historical allusion. For Prance, Italy, and Switzerland wero, instances that unity is strength, and that without a national feeling a country could not become great and prosperous. He could riofc but bo struck with tho degree of inconsistency in argument with each other displayed by'tho speakers against the bill. At the conclusion of the speech of the hon. member for the Hutt, he predicted great evils to flow from the bill, if passed. On tho other hand, tho hon. for Parnell, 'for whose opinion the member for tho Hutt felt great respect, had already told the House that if Provincial Councils wore swept away to-morrow, he apprehended nothing would happen: • They had been told that there had never been a conlliot between Provincialism and Centralism, but he maintained that it was.apparent to the whole colony that fos years the out-dis-tricts. had groaned under the injustice of Provincialism, and had endeavoured to get things changod, but failed. , There had. also Jbeen a constant, struggle on the part of Provincial Governments to usurp the powers that did not belong to them, as was shown' in the numbor of Provincial Acts that rtero ultra vires. Reference had been made to American institutions. Well, ho would take the State of New' York, and according to its population in proportion to New Zealand,-it would require exactly one hundred and eight Provincial Governments to manage the affairs of that Speaking for tho province lie belonged to, when he looked round and saw what the Provincial Government did, and what the municipalities, education boards and road boards did, he failed to see what usa Provincialism wasatall, The lesser bodies did all tho work. The. Hon. member for Auckland City West referred in terms of admiration to the legislation of Proviaeial Councils, but it was wt 11 known that the multitude of Acts passed by Provincial Councils were the laughing stock of the colony. The hon. member for Avon, in illustrating how Provincial Governments spent their money, said that tho interest of large masses of people had been neglected by the making of roads and tho erection of bridges in tho outdistricts. Here was a contradiction of_ terms. Tho real support of cities was _ the country, and consequently in benefiting the country you benefited the town also, He maintained then that the system which caused such an intelligent and trained gentleman to make such a statement could not be a good one. The gentleman could not entertain the objections mado i against tho legality of the Assembly's ; action in the matter.. Tho hon. member I for Parnell criticised the Treasurer's ] finauco to show that he could not fulfil 1 the promises therein made, but he i •believed the Treasurer knew moro about | the question than tho hon. member for i Parnell, and he for one wfls quite pre- i pared to accept the figures of the Trea- i surer. Coming to the bill itself he be- i lioved it would be impossible for tho ( House to pass that session a good or I complcto Local Government Bill. Ho 1 feared that the antagonism of tho sup- i

porters of Provincialism would bo too great to admit of such a result. They would not cordially co-operate in framing such a raeasuro, and were more likely to introduce features ia it that would create a dpad-lock. It was not personal or private reasons which induced him to aupport tho bill. He' did it solely from a national-point of view, and a desire to see a feeling for tho colony as a united whole replace those narrow feelings engendered by provicial jealousies. ' The House rose at 5 30. .

Wednesday, On the Houso resuming last night, .. Mr Bunny re-opened the debate on Abolition. Hisremarks were pretty much the same as his recent speech in Wairarapa. He objected to tho measuro going beyond the second reading. Mr J. Shephard supported the bill, though he hoped considerable alterations would be made in Committoe, whereby less would be given to the town and more to the country districts. • After a long pause," and cries of ** divide"

Mr Dignau moved that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Sic Donald McLean said the Government would resist the amendment. Mr Sheehan then opposed tho bill, and said the resolution passed list session was owing to tho influence of tho Bank of New Zealand, which was the custodian of the Government conscience, an institution which not only negotiated .tho. Government bills, but drew them. Mr W. Johnston moved the adjournment of tho debate at 12.30. 3 20 p.m. The Houso of Bepresentatives met at 230 p.m. Mr Yon der Hcydo presented a petition prayiag that the House would not assent to the bill for tho election of Mayors by ratepayers. Mr W. Kelly asked for all correspondence between tho Auckland Superintendent and the General Government regarding the advance of £40,000 agreed to by the House last session.

The Colonial Treasurer said tho correspondence would bo laid on the table. In reply to Mr Pyke, Major_ Atkinson said that in making the appointment of Survoyor-General tho claims of all persons duly qualified for the office .would be ontortained, but no steps had been taken in the matter yet. Mr Ballanco introduced tho Municipal 'Corporations Loan Bill.- Head a first time. 8 p.m. REMOVAL OF JUDGBS. Mr Eolleston . moved: That it? is dcsirablo tho Houso should be informed in what manner the Legislature signified its desiro for tho shifting of tho Judges of tho Supreme Court to different circuits, as stated in a letter of the Acting-Colonial Secretary, of tho 6th March, 1875, and if in making the proposal; the Government •was actuated by a desire to carry out tho wishes of the Legislature." He said ho held strong opinions upon this matter, and ho did not consider tho proper course had been taken. The hon. gentleman, after commenting .upon the correspondence which took place, said the action of tho Government struck at the very root of justice in the colony. 110 hoped the,Government,:would give the Houso an assurance that no such step regarding tho removal of Judges would bo taken in future, and. he hoped Parlia. ment would bo invited to co-oporato in framing a measure to completely reform the whole, system of. tho SuprcmeCourt procedure. Ho took exception to tho expression quoted in his notico of motion. It was not warranted by what had passed in that Houso relating to the matter, and was therefore very dangerous. The Houso had a right to feel aggrieved at such a statement,

Mr.Bowen said the words regarding the " expressed wishes of the Legislature" were inadvertently used, though the Government understood it to bo the wishes of the joint committee. With regard to the removal of the Judges, the Government hoped to como to satisfactory arrangements., with .the Judges themselves. A THAMES PETITION. Mr O'Neill moved," That the Government bo requested to take into favourable consideration the report of the Waste Lands Committeo on the petition of the inhabitants of the Thames district praying for land for settlement."

Sir Donald McLean "said the Government had already taken action in tho matter,.

Tho resolution was agreed to. ' _ NATIVE LAND I'CBCHASES. Sir George Grey moved that there be laid before tho House a return giving the names of all Europeans from whom lands have been purchased, or to whom compensation has been paid in respect of claims to land out of the £700,000 set apart for the purchaso of native lands. Such return to show the amounts paid to each of such persons respectively, and tho position and area of tho blocks in respect of which sueh payments have been made, He understood tho return was already laid upon the table, but the subject was of such -high consideration that ho still mado his motion, He had never seen anything which made clear to him tho way in which so largo a sum was disbursed.

Mr Eolleston asked that the return be printed which was assented to. Having glanced at the return, he felt that the Houso must admit it Was one that required serious consideration To his mind it was perfectly alarming, (fho hon. gentleman proceeded to read out and comment upon items, specifying a number of cases in which large sums of borrowed money that ought to be speut on public works and" immigration had beon spent in negotiations regarding certain native lands), £ome of these transactions'liad been with a momber of tho House, and although these transactions might not come within the letter of tho law, ho was certain that they wero contrary to the very spirit of our institutions. Then, speaking of the Vpper House, it was well known that several members of that House were interested in the swamp" purchase in the Waikato. It oppeared to him it was time that the legislature came to some understanding upon the question, Ho hoped whon the Dative Minister rose he would explain whether the claims referred to in thereturn were based upon legal status or not. Mr Buckland made a personal explanation, having been referred to by the previous speaker with regard to his land transactions with tho General Government. Somo years ago he ascertained that gold existed in a certain block of land owned by the natives in the Waikato. He took his blankets and tools, and prospected it for himself. He found gold there, and was certain it would one day become a goldfield.' He -then succeeded in leasing some twenty thousand acres of. it froni the natives for £55 a-year —not a bad bargain. What did he do ? He handed the whole of it over to the General Government, only getting his expenses. Ho stipulated, however, that if any reward was paid for the 1

discovery of gold there, ho • should receive if, There : wore two other blocks of land lie purchasod from natives one of 13,000. acres, which he sold to the Government for 2s por acre, barely covering ; his'oxpensbs. Another valuable block he.had also sold them, without making any profit. All he wanted was to see the land settled..

; Sir Donald-McLean said tho Government, in accordance with their proper duty, had stepped in and acquired the right of pre-emption to native lands. No doubt there were many people who would prefer to see individuals enabled to acquire . lands from natives. Ho could assuro the House that tho work of purchasing lands by the Government in tho North Island was tho making of that island, and had that not- been dono tho work of settlement could not not have been advanced excopt in' a very straggling fashion, tho Government had only acted .in accordance with tho desire of tho Houso in acquiring tnose lands, and did it as to them seemed best; When, therefore, "in acquiring largo blocks of land they found persons having claims, not. perhaps always legal bo much as equitable, it was absolutely necessary to come to somo understanding before they were able to.dispososs them. They were absolutely, bound to act as they did, or peril tho future prosperity oftho wholo North Island. Ho coultl assure tho Houso that nothing but. tho very hardest dealings had characterised the acquisition of these blocks. They had studied their very best to carry out tho policy of tho House in regard to public works, and tho placing peoplo upon tho land. The _ Government would lay, the very fullest information possible upon overy transaction mentioned in tho roturn, and lie had no doubt whatever that now, and in the future, it would bo found that they had acted to tho 'best advantage under tho circumstances..

Mr Thompson thought a committeo of the House should bo appointod to investigate tho transactions which took pla'co between tho member for Frahklyn and the Government.

Sir George Grey was not satisfied that a full explanation had beefl givon. The Native Minister told them they nctodin the of tho small farmer. But was tho leasing of twenty thousaud acrcs at the head of tjio Wanganui Plains, to ono person, acting in the interest of small settlers ? Or was tho parting with tho Waikato swamp land, .that should have been sacred, having boen won by the blood of their fellow-men, to Eussell and otberd, looking after tho interest of the small farmer? Where the Government purchased largo blocks of land, with privato rights Attached, thos'o rights should be scrupulously paid for, but theso claims should be dealt with in public Court, not by an individual in a room. Tho whole system of dealing with tho native lands was most pornioious. There was no check whatever. According to the Constitution Act, Superintendents wero tho porsons to'mako tlicso purchases, but in their caso there would haro been a system of double check. If 6 thought the Government should make a full statement to tho House at some future time regarding every pound of tho immense sum of money which had disappeared. With regard to .the explanation of the member for Franklyn, ho believed that was entirely satisfactory; though it would havo been far moro satisfactory if tho transfer had been made through a Court of law. ' • '