NEW ZEALAND PARLIAMENT.

Otago Witness, Issue 1853, 27 May 1887, Page 21

NEW ZEALAND PARLIAMENT.

Wednesday Mat 25. CUSTOMS DUTIES BILL.

The Hon. Sir J. VOGEL moved the second reading of the Customs Duties Bill. He said it was proposed by this bill to allow six months to elapse before putting into effect the duties on underproof spirits and pictorial cards and almanacs. Some of the articles placed upon the bill were so placed in order to avoid confusion with other articles in the present tariff. He referred to various clauses in the bill and the alterations proposed to be made. As regarded the tariff generally, he wished to say it would fall lighter on the great body of consumers than the tariff had in the past. The operation of the tariff new proposed would secure the twofold objeot of increasing revenue and fostering local industries. That had been their policy during many years past, and the same was proposed during the present session. He did not for one moment say that importers in the colony had not got a right to be beard on the tariff question, but it appeared to him that the object of associations which had moved in this matter was to throw the bulk of taxation on the labouring classes. He was not referring to all importers, as many of them took a different view of the case from others, and - said their interests were identical with those of the colony. He thought the House would be anxious to hear the remarks of Major, Atkinson, so he would not detain them. The Treasurer closed a brief speech by quoting from one of Mr Goschen's speeches a statement that every morning the Chancellor of the Exchequer received numbers of letters from all sorts of people proposing changes in taxation, but when they came to be looked into, it was found that these schemes always removed taxation from the people who proposed them.

NO-CONFIDENCB MOTION.

The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved—" That in the opinion of this House the tariff and other financial proposals of the Government are unsatisfactory." He said those proposals were unsatisfactory because they showed the Treasurer had not yet grasped the condition of the colony, and was not going to provide any satisfactory remedy for the present state of things, It was to him a serious matter that the Treasurer should endeavour to impose such a large amount of additional taxation on the people. He wishsd to show the House what their real position at present was.- In the face of such serious difficulty as at present, they had a right to expect from Sir J. Vogel a clear statement of the position ; but he ventured to think no one in the House could, understand that position, and the only conclusion he could come to was that the Treasurer did not wish the House to understand it. He referred to the question of subsidies, and contended that all the Treasurer really intended to do was to pay £35,000 which he did not pay last year and to grant a subsidy to the extent of £75,000. As to the question of economy, the Treasurer must know that he had not effected a single saving out of the votes of last year. Although he claimed to have saved £98,000 out of them, that amount was made up by £65,000 for railways. But that vote was made contingent on revenue if required, and unfortunately it was not required, as the revenue fell short. It was absurd to call that a saving. Then there was £25,000 for local bodies and £11,000 saved on interest and sinking fund. The Government had thus managed to save on one vote in order to spend on another ; but he contended there was not a farthing saved at all, and the Statement was not a true representation of what was done during the year. Referring to the sum of £104,000 it was intended certainly to add it to the consolidated fund- and not to revenue, and the Treasurer should' have owned to that. The £104,000, was a windfall which the Treasurer was not entitled to. He pointed out that, including the £25,000 deficiency in the land fund the total estimate of the Treasurer's deficiency in revenue was £325,000. When the latter took office the land fund stood to credit £80,000, but it showed last year a deficiency of £56,000 ; and yet this deficit was passed over with a simple statement of four lines, and no particulars whatever were given. The usual remedies were to be applied and they were to borrow against this deficit, but this would never get over the difficulty satisfactorily. He denied that the falling prices had affected the Treasurer's calculations, because- many of those prices had fallen a short time after the Treasurer took office. He contended, therefore, that those calculations had been in no way affected by falling prices. He wished the House to go back to 1884-5, as he wanted them to see how a master hand in finance had conducted their business, and how his prophecies had been fulfilled. He (Sir J. Vogel) saw then how their difficulties were to be surmouuted, and the property tax and other taxation abolished, if he only had his way. Revenue in 1884 was £3,817,000 and on that the Treasurer had based his prophecies. He quoted from the Financial Statement of 1884, in which the total abolition of the property tax was foreshadowed ; also that the colony was to progress by leaps and bounds, and reinstated finance was to be instituted. Then in 1885 the Treasurer proposed that; wonderful scheme of finance for local bodies, which was laughed out of the House. Subsidies were promised for 25 years to those bodies, but the House altogether refused that. Last year's revenue was £3»882,000— jEC&OOO more thin in

1834 — and yet a. deficit was apparent this year of £92,000. What caused this deficit? It could uotbe an increase in interest, because 'anything the Treasurer borrowed was to be reproductive, And he had told them in 1884 that he could borrow £7,500,000 without further charge on the people. As to this year's proposals, the appropriation for 1884-85 amounted to £3,819,000 ; aud the appropriation for this year amounted to * £4,071,000, or no less than £252,000 more than in 1884-85; and supplementary estimates werenot yet brought down, s« that in reality the appropriaations jthis year were £294,000 more than were asked form 1884-85. And this was Sir J. Vogel's ' idea of economy ! Decrease of revenue 1 must be met either by increased taxation, or considerable reduction and some increased taxation. But the Treasurer .proposed this year to place taxation upon the ratepayers of the whole colony. ! As'to the property tax proposals of the Treasurer, he wished to know how it was that if that tax was so crushing in its effects he now proposed to make' a graduated tax. He held that nothing the Treasurer had done would injure him more in the eyes ,of the country than that proposal of , a graduated property tax. It would cause doubt as to what the House was .going to do. What was to prevent the House from doubling the graduation ? And the effect the of doubt raised would be to affect the small capitalists who were likely to settle amongst them. As practical mcc they should consider the effect this would have in a new country, and he regretted that the Treasurer should have brought down such a tax as this without some reason for doing so. He next referred to the proposed tax on civil servants, and quoted from letters sent by Sir J. Vogel to the Hall Government; in which he denounced the proposal of that Government to impose taxation of 10 per cent, on civil servants. If he were to read that letter to the House it would be the most complete condemnation of the Treasurer himself which could be made by anybody .He did not propose to discuss the tariff in any detail, but he thought it most unsatisfactory, and it would not in any way provide for what the Treasurer wanted. The extra charge on the people by the tariff would be double that which would come to the Treasurer as revenue. He thought they should have nothing to do with it until the Government came down with a clear scheme of large retrenchment. They were told that the Estimates were £150,000 less than last year; but they had no reason to suppose that the Supplementary Estimates would be less than those of last year — namely, £42,000, which would make the Estimates of this year in reality only £110,000 less than last year. Ministers had given no time to effect retrenchment, and had compiled the Estimates with the expectation that the House would not trouble to look into them. With respect to the sinking fund, he stated that the colony undertook as a matter of contract to pay sinking fund, and yet the Treasurer told them it was an intolerable burden which the colony could not afford to pay. Bnt they ought not to have done away with the Binking fund without the consent of those who had lent money. The Treasurer now proposed to impose £325,000 in order to meet the extravagances of this Government, and he asked what they were to do in this difficulty. It was not the duty of the Opposition to frame a policy, but the duty of the Government was to do so ; and he thought the House would tell the Government j very|decidedly|that the^proposals were unaccept- j able, and it would be for the Government to bring down proposals which would be more likely to meet the present difficulty. He would oppose the tariff altogether, and they should insist on a | large retrenchment in the public service. He also entirely disapproved of a graduated property tax, as it would be an exceedingly unwise proceeding, and the Treasurer must know such proposals would spread universal distrust through • out the country. He should be no party to borrowing to put the land fund in credit, as he believed the village settlement scheme would be a great failure. The House was in a serious difficulty through the non-passing of the Representation Bill last session. They were now asked to pass a bill which two-thirds of the House did not agree with. The Government might wish for a dissolution, and he hoped they would get one, in order to go to the country at once. Supposing this bill were rejected, they could not possibly go to the country upon the present act, aud the new bill could not come into force till about half of the financial year was over. The whole blame of that was due to the Government, who, if they had passed the bill last year, could have avoided it. Whatever might be the position, he hoped the House would be no consenting party to imposing burdens on the^country which they thought were not required, and that they would consider the question altogether apart from the consideration of a dissolution. The House should vote irrespective as to whether or not they would cause a second sessioD, as that was a contingency altogether apart from the question of imposing large additional burdens on the people. He contended that the stagnation of business at present was far worse than when Sir J. Vogel took office, notwithstanding all the promises he had made ; and now after three years of unrest and distress the Treasurer told them that in order' to carry on he must have £325,000 additional, which he wanted to impose on the people. He ventured to call on the House to say that it would not submit to further taxation until Sir J. Vogel brought down a scheme of retrenchment which would be satisfactory to them. j

The Hon. Sir R. STOUT thought that the speech just delivered was one of the weakest he had ever listened to from Major Atkinson. He expected better things from him, and that he would have shown he was more than the leader of a band of discontented men who were only anxious for office. He twitted Major Atkinson with not having secured a seconder to his amendment, but he (Sir R. Stout) thought the difficulty was to arrange a mover. He had expected Major Atkinson for once to have forgotten that he was leader of a party and to have approached the present difficulty as a statesman should have done. He quoted f ron Major Atkinson's speech at Hawera in which he stated that they should have a tariff which would give them revenue, and that he should consider the interests of the consumer as well as the retailer. He (Sir R. Stout) thought nobody would associate that speech with, the one just delivered by the hon. gentleman. He ridiculed the idea of the leader of the Opposition not saying how revenue should be raised, and what particular items of the tariff he objected to. As for him (Sir R. Stout), he would prefer to have six faithful men with him, so that he could speak his mind and not take \ip the position assumed by the hon. member. He would ask whether Major Atkinson's attitude -was not owing to an understanding with the member for Napier in regard to selling land, and said this was Mr Ormond's remedy for all their difficulties. His (Major Atkinson's) followers were all at sixes and sevens on this question, but he contended that selling land would not improve their position. The deficit was only about £92,000, and that was properly stshtjd in the Financial Statement, but Major Atkinson had added to it £104000 and other

items. It simply meant that the Government had' got frpm;an unexpected r ' of " revenue • £104,000 and He would ask what they were to do with it if they were not to take it into account, as had been done by the- Treasurer. Major Atkinson did not admit that the deficit in the land fund had to be dealt with by a separate bill, and that was hardly a fair position to take up. He defended the special settlement'scheme, ' and said the unemployed was a serious question for the Souse to consider. He, .thought this ; scheme was the best means of providing for men ' who had not sufficient capital to invest in small, farms of their own. He. admitted that thesoheme < might fail; but business men frequently, failed, and it' was not to be supposed that this scheme was perfect^' Still, 'he considered it 'was the best means they 'could devise at present. He asked the House, apart from party consideration, never to agree to sell land suitable for' settlement for cash. Thekind of taxation pro-; posed by Major Atkinson .was to put a special! tax on the farmers of .the South Island, but the, present Government had reduced the taxation of the colony .instead of increasing it. The only remedy Major Atkinson, hud when in office was to propose additional taxation. He asserted that if the population per head were taken to account, the' additional taxa-' tion proposed by the present tariff would not exceed what was imposed in former years ; andhe quoted from the New South Wales tariff to show that many of the duties imposed by that colony, which was a Freetrade community, were, higher than those now proposed. The only difference between Major Atkinson and the Government on the question really was as to what particular articles duty .was, to be imposed on. He should like to know on what part of the Estimates a reduction could be made, and it was the duty of Major Atkinson to have pointed out some means of reduction. Major Atkinson was simply endeavouring to foist on the country resolutions of chambers of commerce throughout the colony, but the class of taxation suggested in those resolutions he felt sure would be rejected, by the country.

At the evening sitting, The Hon. Sir R. STOUT continued his remarks. He said the previous Government had done nothing in the matter of providing subsidies for local bodies, while the present Ministry had provided those subsidies without increasing taxation. Referring to the Budget proposals, he asserted that they were the proposals of the Government, and not of individual members. He ridiculed the idea of Major Atkinson quoting from a letter written by Sir J. Vogel years ago about the civil service as an , argument against the Budget proposals. Referring again to the chambers of commerce resolutions, he said the whole object of thoee resolutions was to enable those bodies to make enormous profits for themselves. They were, in fact, struggling to get the burdens shifted from their shoulders on to those less able to bear them. He should like to ask the House to say on what other articles than those proposed customs duties were to be imposed. As to Major Atkinson's remarks about a graduated property tax, he pointed out that some of those members who now supported the hon. gentleman had themselves proposed a tax of that kind. He referred to the member for Clutha, who had advocated that proposal ; and he asked the House, if they got a scheme of taxation sound in theory, what objection could there be to put it in practice ? The principle of the graduated income tax in England was that those in receipt of a certain income paid a tax, whilst those below a certain income paid nothing. Referring to , the civil service, .he thought it a pleasing thing that 30 or 40 members of the House were pledged, if their leader obtained office, that the civil servants' salaries were not to be reduced, but he remembered that many of those gentlemen had distinctly, promised in their speeches that they would endeavour to get those salaries reduced iu' order to effect retrenchment. He only regretted that the exigencies of the service required that any of those salaries should be reduced ; but he thought the reduction should not be of a permanent character, po that the salaries might be restored when the colony could afford it. He asked the House to look at this question from a colonial point' of view, and he submitted it would be better for civil servants to have a reasonable reduction at present than to have a cry raised against them on the score of economy. The only possible policy he could gather from Major Atkinson's speech was to kill rabbits and sell the land of the colony. Those were the only two items of policy On which the Opposition could go to the country, and he congratulated them on it. The object of the motion was to declare that the House had no confidenjein the present Government, and as such the Government acceptfxl it. He pointed out that the Government had passed some useful measures, and in dozens of things they had done what the late Government was unable to do. They had satisfactorily adjusted cable rates, the charitable aid question, and otho'r pressing matters that required settlement. 'He could not understand Mnjor Atkinson's contention that a moribund Parliament was not in a position to deal with the finances. of the colony ; and if that contention were carried out, it meant only one thing — that was, that a dissolution was inevitable. He warned the House, however, that if a second session were brought about, the member for Egmont would be answerable for the expense attached to it. He wished to say in conclusion that the present Government had been placed in great difficulties, and he asserted that no Government in the colony had ever been called upon to administer government under such difficulties. But they had been able to ease the burdens of local-bodies and of general taxpayers. He had never asked for office, but if he did not think he was advocating a sound policy he should not hold office for a single day. If the House did not endorse that policy it would be for them to say so, but he reminded them there was a further appeal to be made as to that policy. He told those who thought the colony could not be saved by the present Ministry that it might be found that a Rehoboam would follow a Solomon, and difficulties might be further increased. Whether he were in office or in Opposition, he would sooner be supported by six loyal men who thoroughly agreed with him than a collection of men of all shades and opinions. He was content to abide bj the verdict of the country, and he believed when that calm and solemn verdict was given it would be that the Government had done their duty loyally to the country.

Mr TAYLOR pointed out that chambers of commerce were neither more nor less than trade protection societies, and yet they were asked to carry out the decisions of those bodies. He thought they should have an infusion of new blood in a new Ministry, which might be formed as an economical Ministry, and might be the means of easing off taxation. He thought a thorough change of administration was necessary, but did not consider the late Government any better than the present Ministry.

Mr FISHER disclaimed any intention of being opposed to the Government on personal grounds, and said he had not even asked them for a single favour. He briefly referred to the circumstance under which the Colonial Trea*

surer took office in 1884,- and said if Sir Julias Vogel would admit that' he .was not a better; financier than any of the financial babes he used 1 to 'talk about, and. that . he was not superhuman, he should not ask .him, to make any further admission. They now, found the country, as the , result of Sir .J. Vogel's finance, in a state of greater depression than it had ever been before. He considered the Premier had adopted a very unworthy line of argument in his reference to the member for Egmont, and said that every leader of a party endeavoured to secure support even from men' who 'did not agree with, his views in every par-j ticular. He referred at some length to the financial condition of the colony, and the depression of New Zealand stock in the ! Home market, and quoted from a, work by Mr Brodio Hoaretha't the .reckless borrowing, of New Zea- | land had created a feeling of alarm amongst' English capitalists. He asserted that with our. stocks at such low prices capital would not come to the country. The' first step to be taken was to re-establish our credit in London,' and then capital would seek investment in the colony. It was not to be wondered >at that there wan no buoyancy in New Zealand, as it would be difficult to find one man in 40 whose estate was not encumbered. 'As to retrenchment, he contended that .savings could be effected iv many directions, including £50,000 in the defence estimates. The cost of the Native department was also excessive ; and although Sir Donald M'Lean had stated that the Native department would shortly cease to exist, that department had now grown to magnificent proportions. In Sir D. M'Lean's time there was a real Native difficulty to contend with ; at the present time, however, there was no difficulty of that kind, as it was now a matter of history that Mr Bryce had killed, the Native difficulty. He also thought it possible to make a saving in the Education department, and he considered they should not attempt to teach children of five years of age. He believed it was possible to save in every department of the Estimates. The effect of the action of the Government during the last three" years was to unsettle every description of property in the colony. But what could they expect when the Premier preached land nationalisation, and said land was different from any other kind of property? The tendency of this 'Government had been . to introduce revolutionary measures of every description and set class against class, and when they found men in- high positions going about preaching such dangerous doctrines it was the time for other men to step in and take their places. He warmly supported the amendment.

Mr JOYCE said the Opposition would have a choice o£ Treasurers if the amendment was carried. ' He denied that the depression was caused by the present orj { any other Government, but the purchasing power on the part of the consumer had- been so reduced that no Treasurer could cope with the difficulty. He could not altogether express unqualified admiration of the Financial Statement, but he looked on it as a compromise and that it was a step in the direction in which he desired the country should go. He thought one way of providing for the t necessities of the country was' by a prohibitive 'tariff, and he did not believe in the bugbear of 'frightening capital away from the colony that they 'so constantly heard of. •

On resuming after the supper adjournment at 10.30, no member rose to address the chair.

Mr TURNBULL moved the' adjournment of the debate, as so many members were absent from the House.

Hon. Major ATKINSON would not oppose the adjournment, and it was reasonable under the circumstances. He wished, however, to state that the request r for adjournment did not- come from his side of the House. ,

The motion for adjournment was lost by 29 to 25. * , • , , .

Mr MOSS said he was not in the confidence of either side of the House, and knew nothing of what had been going on. - He denied that . the depression was temporary, bu,fc said the colony was now reverting to its normal-posi-tion. If that were the case, what were the proper means to take in order to meet' the difficulty that existed ? He thought retrenchment could -be effected in a variety of ways, but he would not advocate a reduction of the hoDorarium, as few men gained anything by coming to the House. He" had always opposed any reduction, but he was also opposed to an increase. He considered reductions of members might well be made, and thought 45 members could do all the work of the House. He referred to several departments in which reductions could be made, ' and to the mistake made by the abolition of the provinces 10 years ago. The colony, he said, -would never be in a better position till local matters were dealt with by properlyconstituted local governments. Another,remedy for their difficulties was thorough protection of all native industries. He asked himself if the present Government were removed from the benches what prospect was .there that their successors would carry out a policy of Protection ? He would therefore say that.rather than risk the chance of a Protective policy being lost, he (intended to vote with the Government .on this occasion, but he reserved to himself the right to oppose the items in the tariff if he thought it desirable. Mr WHYTE moved the adjournment of the House. Lost, on the voices. Mr BEETHAM moved the adjournment of the debate, which was carried.

DEALING WITH CROWN LaNDS.

The only paper laid on the table to-day was a return showing the amount of Crown lands disposed of in each provincial district in each year since 1880, with the amounts obtained and the average. From this it appears that for the seven years 881,859 acres have been sold' for cash, realising £1 ? '194,154. There were' 448,921 disposed of under the deferred-payment system, the yearly fees being £82,271 f on perpetual lea^e 11.700 acres were leased at a yearly rp»tal of £10,848; under th« village settlement B«'A)9 acres produce £893 in fees ; and under the village f-maU farms system 1391 acres produce £4388. During the past year in Otago and Soathland 19,484 acres were sold for cash,' realising, £30,298. Under the deferred payment cystem 10,930 acres were taken up, the yearly fees being £1921 ; under perpetuallease, 26,385 acres were taken up, at a yearly rent of £2492 ; under village settlement, 189 acres were taken up, the yearly fees being £550 ; under the village small farm system, 126 acres brought in f eesamounting to £1046 ; as small runs, 51,185 acres were leased at a yearly rental of £2932 ; under the village homestead facial settlements 1304 acres were taken up. During the past year 481 sections on account of all systems of deferred payment lands were in arrear in Otago to the extent of £11.012, and 430 in Southland to the extent of £5114 For the' whole colony, 1335 selectors were in arreax £21,774. It appears that during the >ear there was expended to assist village ssttlers £1880, exclusive of £1011 spaut iv Auck-

land on small contracts for road -formation, and ;tliere ! are,liabilitieß,to,the extent of, #3390. . . IJUSATIC ASYLUM TROUBLES. ■ There appears to be more trouble brewing in connection' with, 1 the lunatic asylums 1 of the colony. Dr Hacon,. who has had charge of < Sunny side Asylum, Christchurch, and who was about to- be transferred to Wellington, has chosen to' resign rather than remove.