THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXI, Issue 7161, 29 October 1884, Page 5

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[By TELEGR . —PRESS ASSOCIATION".] LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday. The Legislative Council met at half-past two. THE HON. G. BUCKLEY. A message was received from the Governor, stating that he had been pleased to restore to the Council the Hon. G. Buckley, who had forfeited his seat,through being absent for two sessions. THE PREMIER'S STATEMENT. Mr. McLean referred to the statement made by the Premier and Colonial Treasurer in the other House, and moved the adjournment of the Council, to enable the Colonial Secretary to' offer some explanation on the subject if he thought proper, holding that the statement affected the Council very materially. At the same time he animadverted on the action of • the Colonial Secretary in abstaining from informing them of what had been stated in the House of Representatives, and pointed out that it was usual to do so. The Colonial Secretary said nobody recognised more than he did the indepen- I dence of the Council ; but he was sure the observations made in another place were not intended to reflect discredit on the Council, as had been insinuated. If the matter had affected the Council, he would not have been performing his duty if he had failed to bring it forward in a proper way. The motion for adjournment of the Council was then negatived. BREACHES OF TRUST. Mr. Waterkouse introduced a Bill to provide for the punishment of breaches of trust in certain eases, whijh was read a first : time. . the petition of w. h. tucker. On the motion of Mr. Randall Johnston, the report of the Petitions Committee on the petition of W. H. Tucker was referred to the Minister of Jnstice. ' GOVERNMENT INSURANCE BILL.* The Colonial Secretary briefly moved the Becond reading of the New Zealand Government Insurance Association Bill.

Mr. McLean spoke in support of the measure. Mr. Waterhouse intimated his intention of moving in committee, "That the Chairman of the proposed Board should be the Controller-General." He deprecated the practice of the Government touting for business, which he characterised as a public scandal. Colonel Wkitjiore thought the Insurance Department was in a mos>t anomalous and unsatisfactory condition. It was cot right to have a Cabinet Minister at the head of that department, and yet hold another officer responsible. Dr. Grace and Mr. Bonar supported the second reading, after which the Colonial Secretary replied, and the Bill was read a second time. EAST AM) WEST COAST RAILWAY BILL. The East and West Coast Middle Island Railway Bill was recommitted, and underwent further amendments of a slight character, and the Bill was read a third time and passed. GREYMOUTH HARBOUR BILL. The Colonial Secretary formally moved the second reading of the Greymouth Harbour BUI. Mr. McLean did not oppose the Bill, but thought the proposed works should be carried out by Government. ■ x Mr. Watekhouse intended to vote for the Greymouth Bill, and if it passed he would then vote against the VVestport Bill on the ground that it was unnecessary. Only one of these Bills was necessary to develop the coal industry of the West Coast. Colonel Whitmore pointed out that the Council was not only asked to give an immense deal of colonial wealth to help South Island speculation, but also to do it in duplicate. '

Mr. Reynolds believed in both harbours, and intended to support both Bills, and he hoped the Council would not be led away by the remarks of Mr. Waterhouse and those who thought with him regarding this point. The Council adjourned at fiva till half-past Beven. • The Council resumed at half-past seven, when Mr. Reynolds continued his speaking, particularly with reference to the Westport harbour, Mr. Bonab considered that it would be a grand mistake to select one port in preference to tho other, as this would give monopoly to the port so selected. Mr. Ohamberlan supported the views expressed by Mr. Waterhouse. Mr. Richardson supported the passing of both Bills. Mr. Randall Johnston supported the second reading, and only hoped there was as fair a prospect of satisfactory results from works which bad been undertaken by the colony as there was in the present case. The Colonial Secretary briefly replied, and the second reading was carried on the voices. WESTPORT HARBOU2. The Colonial Secuetary next moved tho second reading of the Westport Harbour Bill. The second reading was carried by 22 to 5. IN COMMITTEE. The Council went into committee on the Drainage of Mines Bill,, and Public Works Amendment Bill. These Bills were reported with amendments. DESTITUTE PERSONS BILL. The Destitute Persons Bill was read a second time. The Council adjourned at eleven p.m.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

. Tuesday. The House met at half-past two p.m. QUJSSTIONS. Replying to Mr. Macandrew, as to whether the Government will consider the expediency of appointing a Royal Commission during the recess to inquire and report as to what alteration, if any, should be made in the law regulating the currency of New Zealand, and the advisability of establishing a Government Land Bank, whereby advances may be obtained upon freehold land at a low rate of interest. Sir J. VoGEir said the first part of the question required very careful consideration, as a Royal Commission might do more harm than good. As to the second part, there was no evidence available on the matter in the colony. He thought before the Government took any steps they should send home to England or India for information on the subject. Replying to Mr. Taiaroa, Mr. Balla'Ncs said the Government had not come to any decision on the report of the Native Affairs Committee, IS7S, on the petition of Teone Topi Patuki. Replying to Mr. O'Callaghan, Sir J. Vogel said the practice of ÜBing tricycles for. the delivery of telegrams had been tried in Christchurch in 1872, but was found not to answer. He thought the practice of using tricycles for the delivery of long messages might be afforded a trial. Replying to Sir G. Grey, Sir J. Yogsl said it was the rule in the Telegraph Department that no claim for overtime is entertained unless the claimant has work-d over eight hours a day. Every fortnight's duty was taken as a basis. WAHISOI. Wi Pere moved, " That Wahanui bo heard at the bar of the House prior to the second reading of the Native Lands Settlement Bill. Agreed to. SOOTH SEA company's BILL. Sir J. Vogel moved the second reading of the New Zealand International South Sea Trading Company's Bill. He said that in 1874 there was a considerable amount of correspoudence with reference to initiating a charter company on this matter. The South Sea Islands, during the last year, ha«l attracted notice from all parts of the world, and the JSnglish Government had now issued a protectorate over the south-east portion of New Guinea. It seemed to him that, whilst these islands were being sought after by the principal nations of the world, something ought to be done by the colony. The attention of Australia had been drawn almost exclusively to this subject lately, but the result could not be regarded as satisfactory to New Zealand. Ho thought the annexation of New Guinea was of the least importance to New Zealand as compared with that of other islands. Sir. J. Vogel referred at some length to" the importance which the trade of these Islands was destined to exercise on the colony as a whole. He quoted from a speech on the subject made by Sir G. Grey in ISS3, and Baid it was an eloquent tribute to the importance of the Islands. He (Sir J. Vogel) thought it was useless for them to think the trade of the Inlands would come their way unless they made some efforts to secure it. He thought if the present measure was carried they would be able to obtain a large German interest, especially in the Samoan

Group, and so unite English and German interests. If they neglected the opportunity afforded t&em now of securing this trade they would always regret it. Even if the Bill were not carried the Government would feel proud of having introduced it, although they would ijreatly regret if it were not passed into law. He proceeded to explain the objects of the Bill, and said that thesacrifice the colony was asked to make was so small, and the objects to be attained so large, that it would be a matter of extreme regret if the Bill were not passed. Headmittedthatitjwasratherlatethis session "to go into the whole matter, but the importance of the matter should not be overlooked. If the Bill were thrown out he thought the Honse would in the fature greatly regret their action. Mr. Wakefield said he had listened to the Treasurer's speech with great pleasure, but he felt somewhat disappointed with the nature of his remarks. He thought it was very easy to speak- on .the

Pacific Islands question, because the House knew eo . very little about it. They should not be carried away, however, by the brilliancy of the scheme submitted by the Treasurer. They had heard nothing of a practical nature from the Treasurer. He could not help thinking that he (Sir J. Vogel) felt he had not the good judgment of the House with him when he introduced the Bill. The trade of the Islands, in his opinion, was being developed in a very natnral way, and he did not think New Zealand was being outstripped by New South Wales in the matter of the trade of the Islands. He thought the Treasurer had overlooked the fact that the protectorate extended over the whole of New Guinea. That protectorate was practically the establishing of a seat of authority over that portion o E the Islands. He could not but be struck with the contrast between the Bpeech made by Sir George Grey in ISS3, read by the Treasurer, and the Treasurer's own remarks, the former containing scch noble aspirations as compared with the sordid proposals of the latter. He I thought several points in the Bill were left totally unexplained. It was eminently characteristic of the Colonial Treasurer. They were not told whether the company was in existence or not, although one of the clauses referred to it in an indefinite manner, from which they might infer that there was some kind of organisation. The Bill to all intents and purposes established amonopoly,although they were told that this was not the case. He had been told on good authority that the company would have no difficulty in acquiring all-the business of the Islands. The Bill would open the door to a vast amount of jobbery in this direction. The Treasurer had told them the Bill was a harmless experiment at. the worst, but he considered it would not be a very harmless one, and would cost the colony a large amount of money. He hoped the House would not make the experiment at all unless they wtre convinced it would be a successful one.

Colonel Trimble pointed out several defects in the Bill. He said the New Zealand directors would be overweighted by the English directory unless the Government appointed more directors to the colony. He thought the trade with the Islands was being steadily developed with the colonies. It would be far better to leave the trade as it was than to force it by such a monopoly as was proposed. He thought the Bill was a most daDgerous one. Mr. J. W. Thomson said the Bill was a new departure, and might almost be said to be a foreign policy. He did not think the Treasurer had convinced the House as to the success of the proposed scheme. He thought it undesirable to enter on a Bill of such large magnitude unless they were sure of it 3 success.

Mr. J. C. Bcckland considered that the colony would have been in a much better position at present if it had adopted Sir J. Voxel's proposals on the question now before the House, which he had submitted in IS7O. The future of New Zealand depended largely on such a question as the present one, and he thought the Treasurer deserved great ceedit for bringing it forward. He could hardly understand how member after member had risen to condemn the proposal without giving the Treasurer any credit for his enterprise and genius. He intended to support the second reading, although he thought the Bill would go no furt'aer.

Mr. Moss dissented from the proposal of the Bill. He said that a serious objection to the .Bill was that the company would crush out a large number of other companies that already existed in New Zealand. There was also a large carrying trade between New Zealand and the Islands, and that too would succumb if this company were established, so that success to this company would mean absolute annihilation to many other persons. When the Hudson Bay and East India Companies were established they actually stopped trade, and were the most powerful means of closing the country against enterprise of every kind. Another fatal objection to the Bill was that it was a mixture of business and politics, and he had always found that the two never worked well together. He regretted being compelled to vote against the Bill. He did not think the Bill necessary to extend the trade in these Islands. The people of the colony would themselves extend that trade. If the Government would only devote its energy to reducing the taxation o£ the colony the people would be much more grateful for their efforts. rr. Newman thought the Bill was quite a refreshing new departure from all other Bills brought in this session. The Bill, however, was a subsidy to a trading company, and therefore did not comirend itself to his mind: The Treasurer, in speaking on the Bill, had shown no reason for it 3 necessity, although he had set forth its provisions in such glowing colours. The Bill was a most extraordinary one in its character, as amongst other provisions the shares were to be taken up in lots in diffeient parts of the world. He intended to vote against the second reading. Mr. Garrick could not support the second, reading of the Bill. He thought it better it should not go into committee than that the committee should attempt to make any-

thing of it. He thought, instead of the Government having to guarantee £10,000 a-year under the Bill, it would be found that 5 per cent, of the proposed capital would have to be guaranteed. He thoroughly believed in the genius and resources of the Treasurer, but he did not feel that he was prevented from criticising any measure of which he did not approve, especially when such a measure wis not-brought down as a party one. He was always pleased to listen to the eloquent efforts,of Sir G. Grey, but he neveitheless invariably felt when that gentleman sat down there was nothing in it. He therefore considered that when the Treasurer had to fall back on the eloquence of the member for Auckland City East in support of his Bill, he must have a very bad case indeed. No facts of any kind had been placed before the House as to why they should support the present undertaking, and he thought in the present condition of the colony there was no necessity at all for it. The principle of the Bill was also open to great objection in several respects, and there was no reason given why the company should have power to issue notes. Trade with the Islands had not been lost sight of in New Zealand, and several influential companies were already doing business with the Islands. He submitted that the proposal of the Treasurer had not been supported by suuud argument, and in the interest of New Zealand he thought the measure did not commend itself to the notice of the House.

Mr, Macandrew said at first sight he was unable to see the importance of this measure, but he thought it was a moss important thing to secure the trade of these Islands. He thought they would do wrong not to take immediate action in this matter. He looked for the time when New Zealand would become the chief of the South Seas, and he thought she should use every effort to absorb the trade of these Islands. Sir J. Vogel, iu replying, SE»id the arguments that had beeu used had not shaken his views on the Bill. He could not see how the colony could possibly be liable for any more than the expressed amount of its liability. As for the argument of the member for Parnell, that the Bill would drive out a large number of trading vessels, he thought that would ba very necessary as several of these vessels were engaged in trafficking in human flesh. As the member for Selwyn remarked, that hon. gentleman could have spoken just as well on the other side if necessary ; but anything the Government brought down was. of course, opposed by him. if the Bill did not pass, they would probably find themselves in the s&me position next year as they did now. He did not see why a company of this kind should not have the power to issue promissory notes, and there was no reason why, under prudent management, the company should not be a great commercial success, The risk at the utmost was £10,000 a-year at 7J per cent. He thanked the members for Port Chalmers and Waikouaiti for their remarks on the Bill, and the support they had given it.

The second reading was lost on division:— Ayes, 2S ; noes, 39. The following 13 the division list:—Ayes, 28: BaUance, Bevan, Bradshaw, Brown, J. C. Buckland, Cadman, Dargaville, Fitz. herbert. Guinness, Hamlin, Harper, Hobbs, Joyce. Lance, Larnach, Locke, Hacandrew, J.McKenzie(Moeraki), O'Callaghan, Pearson, Richardson, . Sbephard, Sbrimski. W." J. Steward (Waimate), Toie, Vogel, Walker. Noes 39: All wright, Barron, Brnce, Bryce, Bachanao, W. F. Buckland (Franklin North), Conolly, Dodson, Fergus, Fulton, Garrick, Grigg, Hatch, Hirst (Wallace), Hursthonse, Johnston, Lake, Lavestam, Menteitb, Mitcheleon, Montgomery, Moss, Newman, Ormond, Peacock, G. F. .Richardson, Eolleston, Ross, Russell, Samuel, Sutter, T. Thompson (Auckland North), J. W. Thomson (Clutha), Trimble, Turnbull, Wakefield, W. White (Sydenham), Wilson. Pairs : For — Morris, Fraser, Co3ter. Against—Moat, McMillan, Atkinson. EAST AND WEST COAST RAILWAY. On the question being put that the amendments made by the Legislative Council on the East and West Coast Railway Bill be agreed to. Sir J. Vcgei, said that tho alterations made in the Bill constituted the turning point between success and failure. Hehoped a company would be found to make it a success, but he begged to say that if the alterations should prove the cause of making it impossible to obtain responsible persons to carry out the work it was not the fault of the Government. Xt must not be understood that the Bill as it stood was guaranteed by the Government to make the undertaking a [ success. The people of Canterbury were determined that the measure should be carried, and if it should turn out that the Bill as it now stand 3 was not a success they would not be contented till another measure was passed. He made these remarks so that it should be understood that the Government were not to be charged with failure if the measure proved ineffective. There was no use in fighting any further question, and the Government would accept the measure as it now stood with the earnest desire to give effect to it. In answer to a question as to what amendments had been made in the Council, the Colonial Treasurer said that clause 5 had been struck out, which practically emasculated the measure. After a short debate the amendments were agreed to. WEST COAST SETTLEMENT ACT. Mr. Bai.la>'CK moved that the amendments made in the west Coast Settlement Abt Amendment Bill be agreed to. On the motion for the third reading,'As.r. Te Ao moved that the debate be adjourned till to-morrow. Agreed to.

VARIOUS BILLS. The House went into committee on the Road Boards Act Amendment Bill, which passed with verbal ;;aiendments, and the addition of new clauses. The Land Act, ISG7, Amendment Bill was further considered in committee. On clause 29, conditions on which Government may reserve Crown lands, - an amendment was moved by Mr. Ballance to strike out the words " not exceeding in any borough or town district one-tenth of the Crown lands available for sale within such borough or district." Agreed to. A new clause, providing that the Land Boards Enquiry Act, ISS3, operate as to previous licenses, was added to the Bill. Further clauses were added providing that the Board may with the consent of the Minister for Lands, deolare that the provisions of the fifth, eighth, and twelfth sections of the Act, or of either of the aforesaid provisions, shall not operate in respect of any selector on deferred payments of rural land which is for the most part covered with bush, also providing that one fourth of the rents from perpetual leases are to be paid to local bodies. The new clause, 23, providing for the grant for future leases in respect of the Westport Colliery reserve, elicited a lengthy discussion. The clause waß finally carried. In the new clause 32, providing tljat 10,000 acres may be set aside between Catlin's River and Mataura for a special settlement for Hiijhlaiid crofters, Mr. SedDO.'f moved to strike out the words, "To be offered to such of the crofters in the Highlands of Scotland as may be disposed to emigrate to Now Zealand." The amendment was lost on the voices. The clause was passed on division by 44 against 15. A further clause, proposed by Mr. J. C. Brown, referring to Crown lands being put to ballot instead of auction, elicited a lengthy debate, but was negatived on a division by 29 against 17. Mr. O'Connor moved, in addition to clause 20, for bringing the homestead system in force in Nelson, the same as in the land district of Auckland. The amendment was lost on a division. Ayes, 1-4 ; noes 22. Thtj House was sitting at a quarter to two a.m.