THE OTAGO RUNS.

Lyttelton Times, Volume LVII, Issue 6536, 7 February 1882, Page 5

THE OTAGO RUNS.

THE AUCKLAND DEPUTATION.

. A full report of the proceedings at Auckland on Saturday, when Sir George Grey interviewed the Premier on the subject of the Otago runs, is given in the Otago Daily Times. The deputation, besides Sir George Grey, included Major Harris, Messrs Sheehan, Tole, and Oadman, and they waited upon the Premier and the Attorney-General for the purpose of urging upon him the desirability of deferring the re-leasin'g of the runs until the new Parliament should have had an opportunity of considering the matter. Sir George Grey, who acted as spokesman, said that they were anxious to see the Premier about this question in the South, and to propose to the Government the desirability of refraining from dealing with the runs until the Assembly should meet. The reasons they had for taking this course were that the lands about to be disposed of were of very large ares, and it would be extremely probable that Parliament would think it advisable to dispose of them on some system entirely different from that at present contemplated. The deputation thought that a much better one might be devised. Besides this, Parliament was a new one, elected upon a much wider franchise than previous Parliaments, and it contained such a large number of new members that it was really only just to the people of the country that a question of such magnitude should not be decided until they had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon it. Therefore that was the request they had to press upon the Government. The Hon J. Hall inquired if any of the other members of the deputation wished to speak. Mr Sheehan replied that ho did net think so, as Sir Q. Grey had put the question quite as they wished to have it. Mr Hall then replied: The deputation was asking Government to do what the law said it should not do, and that law was the Land Act of 1877, passed by Sir G. Grey’s Government. It stated that 12 months prior to the expiration of the leases of the runs in Otago, those portions of the runs which it was decided to again lease for pastoral purposes in the ordinary way should be leased by auction. Now these leases expired on March 1, 1883, and therefore Government were bound by law to put them up for sale before March 1 this year. There was some misapprehension a.* , to the character of the land which was now to bo dealt with, and also as to the tenure which it was proposed to give those persons who might become leaseholders. He had seen some statements in public prints from which it would be supposed Government were going to look up land that would be available for agricultural settlement, That was quite a mistake. The law prescribed a different course, and Government were, following it. The law prescribed that such portion of land as was available for agricultural purposes was to bo first of all set aside. This had been done. Then the pastoral lands had been classified, end the better class were not open for re-lease, but had been out into blocks for sale on the system of pastoral deferred and it was only the reeidue, 1

or inferior ohss of land), that it was not pro* poled to deal with. With regard to the ! whole scheme, they were no doubt aware that i early in last lenion a memorandum from the Surveyor-General was laid npon the table of the House setting forth the manner in which Government was recommended to deal with this estate. The memorandum was referred to the Land Board of Otago, and the proposals contained in it were approved, and published with the newspaper reports of the proceedings of the Board. These proposals necessitated a topographical survey, extending over a very large area of country, in order to enable the subdivision of the runs to be made, and this survey had been issued after being approved by the Board. The larger runs, as the members of the deputation had no doubt seen, hod, in strict conformity with the Government’s expressed intention, been very largely subdivided—indeed quite as much os it was possible to do to ensure their profitable occupation. Buns had been made quite as small as it was possible to work with profit. The survey had been completed, and lithographic copies of the survey plans were finished in December, and submitted to the Land Board of Otago. They went very fully into the question, and certain modifications were suggested by them. In some instances runs had been still further divided, and an additional quantity of land had been excepted from leasing, and in the term of years for which leases were to run alterations had been mode also. The deputation would see that the leases were, generally, to be for no longer a term than ten years. They were for varying terms, and it appeared to him there were more for five years than for any other term. Some were for one year, some for three years, some for four years, some for five years, some for six years, some for seven years, some for eight years, some for nine years, and some for ten years. Subject to these modifications, the land Board, after several sittings, approved the proposals of the Government, and their modifications bad been adopted, as he understood, entirely by the Cabinet. The necessary alterations had to be made in the maps; and after they had been lithographed, they had been distributed throughout New Zealand and throughout the Australian Colonies since Jan. £6 lost. On Bov. 7 notice was issued that the leases of 3,000,000 acres of land were falling in, and would be dealt with in either of the ways he had just described. Sir G. Grey; Were any details given ? Mr Hall replied that there could be no details, because in the first place the proposals had not then been approved by the Land Board of Otago, and in the second place the lithographic plans-fcould not be prepared till the Land Board did approve. Sir G. Grey: 1 mean was there no description given of the runs ? Mr Hall: 80. They bad no doubt seen the advertisement which had appeared in the papers. It stated that the agricultural portions of the land would be forthwith surveyed and offered for sale under the deferred payment system, but that conld not ' be done for some time, as the leases did not expire for 12 months. It also stated that the pastoral selections would be sold by auction in the latter end of February, 1882. Mr Hall then read the list of newspapers in which this advertisement was inserted, viz,, 30 in all in the Colony, and including the Australian papers, 45; and it would be continued till the day of sale on Feb. 27. A larger advertisement, giving fuller particulars, was inserted in the Dunedin papers, and the terms and conditions of sale fully described in the Gazette ; and 3000 slips and posters with the Gazette notice printed on them had been distributed amongst the lands offices, post-offices, and Union Steamship Company’s offices throughout the Colony. Maps had been lithographed and distributed by every mail since Jan. 26, and were . still being issued as fast as they could possibly be turned out. This was the amount of publicity which Government had been able to give to the proposed leasing of these runs, and he thought the deputation would agree with him that they had done as much under the circumstances as it was possible for them to do in the way of giving publicity to the matter. With regard to the suggestion that it might appear they were looking up agricultural he might state that not only had every endeavour been inode io exclude land which waa available for agricultural purposes, bat that the terms of the- hew leases.were such that the Government conld at any time, . upon 12 months’ notice being given, resume fiossession of any of the land which had been eased if it were required for purposes of sale, without any compensation being given for improvements, except for those which exist at the present time. It was therefore impossible to contend they were locking up any land that could be possibly available for purposes of sale. Practically, he submitted, the notice issued so far hack ae November was ample notice to all persons who are likely to compete for these runs. It was stated that they would be putupfor sale at the end of February, and any persons who had such intentions would visit Otago to see what the country was like, and while there they could get full information, and have a complete month to examine the country and ascertain particulars before the sale took place. He had thought it right to go fully into the question of the amount of publicity which had been given to . this proposed'sale, because he thought misapprehension existed on the subject; while as regarded the suggestion that they should defer the sale, he could only repeat that the letter of the law compelled them to sell twelve months before the expiration of the leases, and therefore there was no option unless they chose to break the law which had been passed by Sir George Grey’s Government, Sir George Grey said he must be just permitted to state that the Government had acted under an entirely mistaken reading of the law alluded to. It distinctly said the land was only to be put up with the approval of the Government, nob with that of any Land Board. With the view he took of it, it seemed to him that it wae very probable Parliament would devise another system of dealing with those runs, and that they would uot have them put up simply for pastoral purposes. He believed it quite possible to have a series of pastoral runs upon quit rent; and supposing them to be of 5000 or 6000 acres in area, a large number of well-to-do families could be settled on them at a fair quit rent, and without any competition at all. On the whole of these runs at least 1000 families could be settled comfortably under that system. It was the system pursued at the Cape of Good Hope, and it was distinctly opposed to the one the Government proposed now. The law said the Governor should approve of the land before it woe put up, and he was in this matter the representative of the people. The new Parliament had a right to say whether he should be able to do so or not. The duty did not rest upon the Land Board at all. They were entirely mistaken upon that point. Mr Hall explained that he had only said the Land Board bad only the right of approving the conditions. Sir George Grey went on to say that he thought the question a Ministerial one, and, that being so, it must be deemed that it was only fair and just to allow new members of Parliament to exorcise a voice upon it, seeing that it affected the welfare and happiness of a large number of people. He felt satisfied that if the Government carefully considered the matter they would feel it was one upon which Parliament ought to be heard, for it ! was quite possible that many of the representatives had been instructed by constituents with regard to it. It was a question of policy, which Parliament ought to decide. He further said the notice did not allow sufficient time to people who contemplated purchasing to visit tho land. The advertisement should have stated the size of the runs, how they were divided, and also given some estimate of tho value of improvements on each, so that intending purchasers might know the amount of money they were expected to provide. As soon as he saw the Gazette notice of Jan. Si, he had come straight to Auckland, and he believed he could submit a plan which he thought would be infinitely better for the people, and that was to restrict purchasers to one run each. Under the present system there was nothing to prevent the original proprietors buying back all their land, and they started with an advantage Conferred on, them by an unknown valuation. It was quite likely that each of these large proprietors

would giro a very considerable mm for the first part of hie run offered, and thus, haying discouraged competition,- would easily secure the remainder at a less price, so that his mortgage would not be very high. He felt sure the more these conditions were looked into, the more would they be found adverse to people of humble circumstances who were desirous of acquiring small runs. Government had still power to prevent all this, and it was clear that they had misapprehended the power devolving upon them. > Mr Hall: I understand that substantially, Sir George Grey, you propose an entirely different mode of dealing with these lands? Sir G. Grey; Oh, no, sir. I only propose that Parliament should have an opportunity of considering and of dealing with this question, in which the whole of the people are interested and especially people inhumblecircumstances. I only ask that the new Parliament should hare an opportunity of considering whether another method ehould not be adopted of dealingwith the runt. Mr Hall pointed out that daring the last four years the opportunity had been open, and no one had shown a disposition to avail himself of it. It was perfectly well known the lands were to be put up in this way, and Government could hardly be now asked to disregard the law. Sir G. Grey rejoined that he and the others who thought with him considered the matter would not have been very favourably considered by the old Parliament; but that the new Parliament, returned upon a wide basis, was more likely to act differently. Mr Hall replied that he had every confidence in the judgment of the new Parliament, which he had no doubt was an excellent one, but he had not seen in thereports of speeches of new members any expression of desire to review the arrangement made in 1877. Sir George Grey said apart from this it wac constitutional usage that when a new Parliament was elected it should be called together at the earliest possible moment. Mr Hall regretted he had to differ from Sir George Grey on this point also. He did not think constitutional usage required any such thing.

After tome farther discussion, Sir George Grey remarked that the sale might be deferred by the GoTerament delaying to fain the Governor's content. Mr Whitaker and Mr Hall, in replying, pointed out that they were bound by the' Act of 1877, and the people of Australia and NewZealand had been invited to attend the plaee of tale at a given date. Sir George Grey retorted that as the notices had only been sent on Jan. 25 a telegram could easily be seat announcing the postponement of the sale, and Parliament could be immediately called together. Mr Whitaker said Parliament could not be assembled sooner than March. Sir G. Grey contended that Parliament could be assembled within ten dajs. fie felt sure that if this method of disposing of the runs were pursued it would allow capitalists to become possessed of them. He felt it to be one of the greatest hardships that had ever been inflicted on the country. No one would run the risk of journeying to Otago when he was unaware of the conditions.

Mr Hall; Any man of business would go upon the run and look at the improvements for himself.

Sir G. Grey: They have had no time. .Mr Hall: They have had notice since December, and- that should be enough for any man of business.

Sir G. Grey said the advertisement in its vagueness was enough to make one laugh! Mr Hall remarked that a man of business would have acted upon it instead of laughing at it. Mr Hall continued that he would be very glad to submit the recommendations of the deputation to the other members of the Cabinet, and he was quite sure they would receive the full share of consideration to which they were entitled. He had thought it best, however, to state his own views.

Sir George Grey, in reply, merely remarked that the subject should be considered.

Mr Sheehan wished to make a protest against the Act of 1877 being termed the Act -of the Grey Ministry. It had been drafted by the previous Government, and they (the Grey Ministry) took it np by virtue of an arrangement made with the members for the Provinces of Otago and Canterbury. If he remembered rightly, the original clauses fixing the sale were inserted upon amendments moved hy Mr Bolleston. Mr Hall did net think that absolved the then Government of the day from the responsibility of it. If they had objected to any part of it, it was quite optional for them to have dropped or withdrawn it. The fact was that the Attorney-General (Mr Stout) carried it through the Lower House, and Colonel Whitmore had carried it in the Upper House. Mr Sheehan said they were committed to it, and they had to get it through as best they could. It would have been a risky thing to have dropped it. Sir George Gray said the bill was first of all carried, and he protested against it, but it was forced on entirely by-the rnnholders. Mr Whitaker remarked that there were only five rnnholders in the House at that time.

Mr Hall said the Grey Government could have recommended the Governor not to assent to it, but they had actually advised him to assent to it.

Sir George Grey answered that at the time he was involved In a dispute with the Governor on a constitutional point, in regard to which he had been afterwards shown to be right, and that the only way of obtaining the necessary supplies of money from the Governor was by obtaining his assent to this measure. The Bill had got into such a state that it could not be dropped, and no Committee amendments were made on it to which he objected. Mr Hall, in conclusion, said he would lay the matter before the Cabinet.

Sir George Grey: I shall now ask you to present a petition to the Governor, as this matter appears not likely to be settled for some time, praying him to assemble Parliament.

Sir George Grey then handed to Mr Hall the following petition. “To His Excellency the Governor of Few Zealand.

•' We, the undersigned members of the House of Bepresentatives, beg most respect* fully to submit for your Excellency's consideration the expediency of convoking the new Parliament before the end of the finansial year which terminates *»a March 31 next. The reasons for making this application to your Excellency are: That the representatives of the people of New Zealand, elected as they have been for the first time on a wider population basis, should have the earliest possible opportunity of dealing with the finances of the Colony, and of giving statutory effeot to the popular will im respeot of many important questions which deeply affeot the public interest. We desire most earnestly to assure your Excellency that we do not make this application in the interest of any politioal party, and we venture, therefore, to hope your Excellency may deem it advisable, for the reasons above stated, to summon the members of the new Parliament for the despatch of business before the expiration of the present financial year.—(Bigned) George Grey, Fred J. Moss, Joseph A. Tole, B. Harris, A. J. Oadman, John Sheehan." Mr Hall: I will forward it to the Governor. The members of the deputation then took their departure.