MUSSOLINI

Evening Post, Volume CXVI, Issue 22, 26 July 1933, Page 10

MUSSOLINI

A PERSONAL CALL

THE PROBLEMS OF EUROPE

DOMINANT FIGURE

Among the regular features of that most modern form of publicity, broadcasting, in England is a series of studies in European affairs by Vernon Bart-

Lett, who travels among the nations and talks to the listeners as he goes. His addresses are regularly reported in "The Listener," and always make fascinating reading. In a recent number he describes an interview with Mussolini, conducted in the famous huge audience chamber.

Mussolini and Lenin (said Mr. Bartlett) are the most memorable figures of this generation, and possibly of this century. ' One can hardly compare them, because Lenin died before he had got beyond the beginnings of his task, and besides the Russian peasant is much more difficult material than the Italian to knock into shape—l suppose I may be allowed that expression since there has been a good deal of violence in the process. But Mussolini lias gone from strength to strength until Fascism is a household word in every land, and thousands of young men in a score of countries wear some specially coloured shirt because this son of an Italian blacksmith, this revolutionary Socialist, who in his youth saw the inside of prisons in Switzerland, Austria, and his own country, found himself, when war broke out, more of a Nationalist than a Socialist and was able to lead a grest movement of national regeneration. If Lenin's embalmed body in Moscow is visited by long streams of pilgrims, Mussolini, still very much alive, is the object of an adoration on the i part of the public which must be very dangerous, even to his sense of proportion. At the Exhibition of the Fascist Revolution, which has been open in Rome for several months past, there is an exact reproduction of the study in which ho edited the "Popolo d'ltalia," the Nationalist paper he founded after ho had ceased to edit the great Socialist newspaper "Avanti." It is, a small and badlyfurnished room, distinguished from thousands of other dismal little offices only by the hand-grenades and bits of shell which ho used as paper-weights, but it is interesting to see how moved tho poorer Italians are by it. They are glad to bo reminded that this man, who is now far more acclaimed than tho King himself, was a man of the people. Hitler's father was a peasant who became a Customs official. Pilsudski's parents belonged to the lesser nobility, but he has always dressed as shabbily as possible and has done everything else he can to make people forget it. lam convinced that one great mistake many of us make in judging men like Mussolini and Hitler is to un-der-estimate- the power and the appeal that their humble origin gives them. Their hatred of Labour. Parties does not necessarily mean that they hate the labourer, and I would wager that if you could1 get an entirely free expression o£ Italian public opinion—which you can't, as my democratic friends would hasten to point out —a larger proportion of working-men than of industrialists or land owners would vote for Fascism. THE PENALTY OF RASHNESS. I don't like Fascism myself, and have never pretended to do so, for I believe in a greater freedom of thought than Fascism encourages. The very day after my interview with Signor Mussolini I lunched with another man, who has served Italy magnificently both in war and peace, but who is now always being pestered and followed by the police merely because lie believes iri individual liberty and has tho rashness and the courage to say so. But believing as I do that one of the first tasks of civilisation should bp to abolish poverty, I am compelled to admit that Signor Mussolini seems to be ;i much more practical Socialist than the great majority of his critics realise. I apologise for expressing my opinion—a dangerous thing to do iv any case. Lot me come to the interview so that the Duce can speak for himself. If there is one man in Europe whom one would not willingly keep waiting it is, I imagine, Signor Mussolini, but I began my interview with him by turning up more than an hour aftor the appointed time. The letter fixing the appointment had gone astray and quite by chance I telephoned to the Italian Foreign Office to ask if there was any news as to when my. audience was to bo, and was told that it was already over. I changed into a dark suit moro quickly than I have' ever done before and put on my tie and, collar in the motor-car on the way to the fif-teenth-century Palazzo Vcnezia where the Duce lives. A detective examined me and the photograph on my passport with a good deal of suspicion, and then led mo up to the Prime Minister's apartments, and after a few minutes I found myself in the banquet-ing-hall which Signor Mussolini calls his study. THE MAN AND THE ROOM. I had heard a great deal about that study, but I confess it was much larger and more alarming than I had evei\ imagined. I tried to measure its length as I walked back to the door after tho interview was over. It is, I should guess, about the size of a large swimming bath, and the great man sits behind a huge table (which looks very small until you come to talk to him across it), as fa"r away from the entrance as possible. The old tiles on the floor are very attractive, except when you have to clatter across them. It is certainly tho most alarming room I havo ever been in and it is equally certain that the Duce knows it is so, and likes it to bo so. I found in front of me a sturdy man of middle height, with a large head and a very broad jaw. He looks a good deal older than on the last occasion when I talked to him, but that was on the day when he became Prime Minister after the March on Rome, eleven busy years ago. His eyes, although a little too close together, aro' extraordinarily fine, and he would have been a very dangcroSs man if he had turned to love instead of to politics. Occasionally he startles you by opening them so much that the brown of them is entirely surrounded by a wide circle of white—a very difficult thing to do, as I found out after some practice in front of my shaving-mirror. He is so pleasant to talk to that I almost tremble to think of some of tho criticisms of Fascism I put before him. AWFUL ALTERNATIVES. We talked of war. "I don't think it is near, as many seem to believe," declared the Duce. Herr Hitler, he suggested, had plenty of domestic problems to deal with, and Germany's neighbours now appeared to recognise this important fact. Besides, history showed that there were very seldom wars, in time of economic crisis. That, was, perhaps, the awful alternative which faced humanity—we could only choose between peace with economic

distress and economic prosperity which ended in war. Think of that prosperous summer of 1914!

But, I suggested, was there not a danger in the Fascist system with its insistence on acute nationalism, its maintenance of enthusiasm at home by pretending there was danger of attack from abroad? In his recent speech at Littoria, built where the dreaded Pontine Marshes had been drained of their malarial swamps and turned into fertile land, Mussolini had said, 'This is the kind of war we prefer to fight' That had undoubtedly been a perfectly sincere statement and one which deserved greater recognition abroad, but surely this acute national sensitiveness and pride made Fascism a dangerous system? Of course there was a danger, the Duce agreed. There was a danger in every system, and democracy, for example, had certainly not brought lasting periods of peace. A dictatorship put much more responsibility in the hands of one man, but if he were worthy of the name of dictator he would be strong enough to keep the national passions ho had aroused under control and to turn this acute national pride into useful channels. I should imagine that there is no doubt in the mind of Signor Mussolini about his ability to make his wishes obeyed'at all times. DICTATORS AND DISTRUST. I ventured to interrupt. Might not one dictator, strong enough to keep the passions of his own compatriots in check, arouse dangerous distrust in some neighbouring country, whore a restraining hand was lacking? A country might go to war out of sheer panic. Here again Italy's Prime Minister agreed. There was that danger, especially in the present period of transition between two systems of government. And he went on to emphasise the importance of lessening European fears by making treaties bonds of peace instead of fetters which any self-respect-ing country must try to break. There had, for example, been a good deal of misunderstanding about the Four Power Pact. Of course, there had never been any thought or desire to dictate treaty revision to countries which were not ready to listen or accept it. Such iChanges could only come about very slowly, and the important thing for the moment, had been to get the principle generally accepted. That was what the four Powers had wanted to do. Dr. Bcnes, who, as Foreign Minister of Czechoslovakia, must obviously bo very shy about revision, had himself accepted the principle of revision' by laying down, in a recent speech, the conditions which he felt should precede it. Obviously there were two great, difficulties about revision. One was to persuade the countries which wanted it to be reasonable and practical in their demands, and tho other was to persuade those which did not want it to accept it rather than start a new world war. "And let's be frank and straightforward," urged the Duce with characteristic vigour. "It is better to talk about these difficulties than to pretend that they arc not there." DEMOCRACY A TRICK? Wo came back to tho subject of democracy. "It's often no more than a trick,'' Signor Mussolini declared. Every few years people are allowed to vote on a series of complicated problems they could not possibly understand—such problems ,as the merits of the gold standard, for example. Either they do not vote at all, or they tend to vote for the man who talks the loudes-st or looks the pleasantest. Just an expedient to give the* masses the illusion that they governed themselves. That, argued the Duce, was why the Fascist Corporative system was so important. It would bo the link between the Government and tho people, and a much more direct link than the ballotbox at a General Election. Tho man in tho street, whatever his job in life, belonged to a corporation in which ho met other men doing the same kind of work. Ho could therefore discuss matters with them in which he was himself something of an expert. His ideas found their way up to the Government, which thus had tho widest possible expert opinion on every question. The Italian citizen, through his corporation, would probably have a greater influence on the conduct of those affairs which affected him than the citizen of any so-called democratic country. ■ • Then again, the Duco pointed out, Fascism gave 3 roung/rnen a chance. In many other countries, I added, the State seemed to have no use for its young men except in time of war, when they became cannon-fodder, and. the great man laughed. "Do you, know what we should do with our older men if there should be another war?" he asked. "They would go with tho others into tho front line. They will have lived their lives and will be able to make that extra sacrifice."' I agreed with enthusiasm, until I reflected -that people of my generation would have a poor time of it. They were just the right age for, the last war, and, if there were another one, they would presumably be just the right age to totter back to the trenches again. CHUCKLE AND FROWN. The Duce's cordiality gave mo the courage to touch on a more delicate subject. There was, I complained, no sense of humour about tho Fascist regime. Even in the Russian papers one saw cartoons laughing at the governors of the nation; in tho Italian papers one saw none. This was the only point, in a conversation lasting nearly an hour, .about which the. Duee gave me a reply which did not seem entirely convincing. In the first place ho said that the Italians had never developed much of a sense of humour —the harsh rocky soil of Italy was not encouraging to such a psychology. In the second place, Fascism was, to the Italians, too sacred a thing to be laughed at. ,In any case, Signor Mussolini himself knows how to laugh, and he chuckled when I reminded him of- a famous meeting in tho San Carlo Opera House in Naples a day or two before the March on Rome. For on that occasion I had got on to the stago with all the Fascisti, and could see the Duco chatting and laughing in, the wings until someone suggested it was time for the meeting to begin. In a moment the laugh had disappeared, and the Duce strode down to the footlights and glared in severe silence at the audience until the strain was almost too great to be borne. I came away from my interview feeling that I had been privileged to meet a great man who is far more human and friendly than ho can allow himself to appear. He walked with me across his immense study, and as he turned to go back to work I had a sensation almost of pity. It must be such a lonely job being a dictator.