THE UPPER HOUSE

Evening Post, Volume LXXXVII, Issue 151, 27 June 1914, Page 11

THE UPPER HOUSE

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL REFORM GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS CRITICISED WHO ARE THE NEW COUN' CILLORS? Among the many people curious to know who are going to be the new Legislative Councillors, none are more curious than the members of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition (Sir Joseph Ward) asked the Prime Minister last, evening for a little information on the Subject. He wanted to know how many gentlemen were going to be appointed to the Upper House, The "Prime Minister : Wouldn't you like to know their names? (Laughter.) Sir Joseph said he wanted to know if the Council was going to be put into the same position as a Land Board — nobody who did not agree with the policy of the Government was to be appointed. It was a very anomalous position for the. Council to be in. The situation which existed at the present time was unprecedented. What was going to be done about the Legislative Council? Why should the representatives directly elected by the people be deprived of the right to deal with the matter? Why should it be necessary to appoint men specially to deal with the question? What mandate had the Prime Minister, as leading a minority of the people of New Zealand, and after the elections only a minority of members of the House, for his action? A member: What mandate had you? Sir Joseph: None at all. (Laughter.) But if some members had not crossed over to the other side of the House against their pledges— The further remarks of the speaker were cut short by the bell. WAS THERE A MANDATE? The Prime Minister, in reply, contended emphatically that his party had a clear majority of eight after the second want of confidence motion following the resignation of the Ward Government. Sir Joseph Ward; You had not a mandate from the country, Mr. Massey; The opinion of the people at the General Election was against the right hon. gentleman. There is no question about that. Continuing, Mr. Massey submitted that they had a mandate from the country. Forty-one members had been sent to Parliament to support the platform of the Government —a platform which included reform of the Council He hoped to be able next week to give the names of the gentlemen who would be appointed to the Council.^ He asked the Leader of the Opposition to look back to the appointments the Government had matte and observe the difference between the Government's policy and that of the previous Governments. They had never appointed a single man who was not a supporter of their policy. Mr. Colvin made reference to rejects. "AN ABSOLUTE ." The Prime Minister : The hon. gentleman had better not talk about rejects, for I have had a deputation from his district asking me to appoint him. (Loud laughter.) Mr. Colvin protested, and Mr. Massey said that the supporters of four candidates had, within the past month, requested him to appoint the hon. gentleman to the Upper House. Mr. Colvin said : "It is an absolute—" and, alter a pause for a moment or two, "I have not heard it." (Laughter.) The Prime Minister added that he was willing to give Mr. Colvin the names privately. Reverting to the subject of Council reform, he expressed the hope that the Council would, before the' end of the present session, be placed on a new footing, and made directly responsible to the people. Mr, Russell remarked : "You had better say in the distant future." Right Hon. Mr. Massey : "In the not far distant future, let me say." REFORM BY NOMINEES. Later Sir Joseph Ward said he denied absolutely the right of any Government in power to effect a great constitutional reform by the appointing of nominees to the second branch of the Legislature unless the people by mandate have returned men to office' pledged to effect that reform. There was no mandate to warrant the change being made. A Member: What about Lloyd George and the House of Lords? Sir Joseph Ward : The House of Lords is not reformed. At this stage the House adjourned for din«* *

Sir Joseph Ward, speaking after the dinner adjournment, submitted that after the last General Election the present Leader of tho House came back to tho House with a minority. Tho question was whether the country gave the Government a mandate to make the Legislative Council elective, and he contended that no such mandate had been, given, and he wanted to know why tho Government should propose such a change seeing that the country had not asked that it should be made. If the present Opposition came into power after tho next General Election, the country would be in this position : If the Government proposed tv make a big increase in the Graduated Land Tax it would have to remain in office seven years before it could carry out that design. The House had never been told why the elective principle should not be applied to the Legislative Council until 1915. It was not right oi fair or just to the people that such a change in the constitution should be carried out without full reference to the people. He did not know any Government that had nominated its opponents to the Council, but no one on the Opposition side would take any exception to good Liberals being appointed^. For his own part, he declared that in making appointments to the Council he had never sought to ascertain *heir views on any particular measure. MEMBERS PLEDGEb v TO REFORM. The Prime Minister contended that many members of the Lower House had been elected on the understanding that they should vote for the reform of thb Upper House. There were forty-four members of the House of Representatives pledged to that reform. Sir Joseph Ward : But you expressed your disapproval of a nominee system, and yet you are going to nominate a larger number. The Prime Minister: It has been ren dered necessary, but I will come to that later. The Second Ballot Bill was nevoi brought forward by a mandate of thb people. The electors were not consulted about the matter. i Sir Josenh Ward : There was general dissatisfaction. The Prime Minister: I never heard of any. Mr. Massey went on to say that the Government had not at present a majority in favour of their proposals for reform and they wanted a majority. Out of eight people already appointed seven remained, one having died, and as that number was n,ot sufficient to turn the scale, he thought it was the duty of the Government to place a sufficient number of appointees there to ensure the passage of the Bill. The number they were going to appoint would bring the number in the House up to that normally existing. Mr. Wilford : Don't you think the whole place has outlasted its usefulness? That's what you said in 1901. The Prime Minister : I am not the only member who has changed his views since 1901, or since 1913. "POLITICAL PERFIDY AND SUICIDE." Mr. G. W, Russell characterised the act of the Government in asking the Council to reform themselves as practically equivalent to a demand to commit political suicide. It was an act of political perfidy to nominate members to the Upper House against the principles laid down by the Government. The proper policy would have been to have brought the Bill to the House of Representatives, where such a reform should start. The Government could then have gone to the Upper House, and said, "Here is the will of the people of the country expressed." It was all a political move now on the part of the Government to secure a semi-permanent majority in the Upper House. He contended that there was not the slightest necessity to appoint extra nominees to the Upper House. The Prime Minister : That is not so. Mr. Russell contended that the Council should be given the opportunity of dealing with the Bill as the House was at present constituted, and then, if tho Bill was rejected, there might be some ground for the appointment of fresh nominees. The Government could not find any abler men than the Hons. Oliver Samuel and J. R. Sinclair. The Prime Minister smiled. Mr. Ruesell : I see the Prime Minister smile. I conclude by that Mr. Samuel and Mr. Sinclair are to be reappointed. ON THE SECOND BALLOT. On the subject of the electoral laws, Mr. Russell declared that the Government did not want a substitute for the Second Ballot, but was proposing to go in for the "first-past-the-post" system. In this connection he chaffed the Government with having endeavoured unsuccessfully to persuade Mr. Wilkinson to accept a seat in the Legislative Council. He asked the Prime Minister if Mr. Wilkinson's name was on the list. Mr. Massey : No one has seen that list but myself. (Laughter.) Mr. R/Ussell said he had also heard that Mr. D. Buick had been offered a 6eat on the Council, but had turned the proposal down with considerable determination. Tho Hon. J, Allen wanted to know what mandate the Mackenzie Government had to appoint three members to the Legislative Council. Neither Mr. Buick nor Mr. Wilkinson had, he said, bden offered a seat in the Legislative Council. The Opposition ought to have pointed out that the Government last year proposed to reduce the terms of appointment of Councillors to three years. The Council, however, rejected the proposal, and the Government was forced to making fresh appointments in order 'to carry out it« scheme of reform. Later in the evening Mr. G. W. Russell sought further to "draw" the Government on the subject of the Council appointments, and expressed the opinion that the Government was not acting wisely in the course that it was taking. It was the old Conservative policy ; when the Government knew it was going to be beaten in the people's Chamber it filled the Legislative Council with ,its nominees. "Wo were in a, majority until you captured some of our' members by your devious methods/ incidentally remarked Mr. G. W. Ptussell. The Prime Minister resented the suggestion that any of the Government's methods had been "devious," and as to the future, he almost prophesied that tho Opposition were going to meet with the biggest surprise of their lives (presumably as the result of the next election). Tho statement was received with mixed expressions of feeling.