Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill.

Daily Telegraph (Napier), Issue 4660, 14 July 1886, Page 3

Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill.

Debate Hetwecu *ir Robert Stout ami Mr Orinontl.

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Wellington, Yesterday,

There was a warm discussion in committee of the House last night on a proposed addition to the Government Loans to Local Bodies Bill. The objectionable clause read as follows: —"For the purpose of making special provision in aid of the erection of buildings for schools established under the Education Act, 1877, and in addition to the amounts that may be authorised to _ be lent to local authorities under the preceding provisions of this Act, the Treasurer in such financial year and until otherwise ordered by resolution of the House of Representatives, may make loans to Education Boards not exceeding sixty thousand pounds. The Minister of Education may in each financial rear MBUo to the Education Board of an education district a certificate setting forth the amount such Board would be entitled to borrow under thie Act." Captain Butter strongly objected to the clause, while Mr Turnbull said they might just as well admit that the education system bad broken down. The Premier said the education vote was increasing year by year. With ordinary care the Education Boards ought to economise, as year by year the schools were ..-etting larger, and it was cheaper to manage a largo school than a number of small ones. If the Education Boards managed their affairs discreetly and economically, they could afford to give education at less per pupil than in tho past. Now they allowed the same rate per pupil, and they did not say the whole of the school buildings were to come out of loans. What they said was they could save money out of their capitation allowances, and therefore the paying of interest on tho money they borrowed woidd bo a n more bagatelle. If the Boards borrowed £30,000 they would only have to pay £1500 per annum for interest, and surely they could save that out of a capitation allowanco of upwards of £300,000. There were members in tho Houso who, whenever an attempt to faco the want* of the colony by taxation was made, objected to taxation and to borrowing. The expenses of some of the Boards were double what thoy should be for the work done. There was no economy in their management. Those whe wore not willing to force some economy in the management of the Boards were doing their best to spoil the system, because they were playing into the hands of tho enemies of the present Act. . , Mr Fergus suggested that the whole system should be based on that of Victoria, so that the Inspector-General at Wellington should have the control of the education of tho people, which, ho ventured to say, would bo loss costly than the present plan, which did not give satisfaction. Mr Ormond said the Colonial Treasurer, in advocating the clause, was very careful to tell the committee that this was not a blow against the system. He surely could not expect them to forgot that when the present Government mado their first financial statement in the Houso one of tho first things thoy did was to attack the system, and to reduce the grant givon to Education Boards to carry on their duties, and therofore he was pursuing the same line now as •he did then, namely, endeavoring to reduce the moneys which he said was necessary to Miablo those Boards to carry .„ They could not expect anything el/c from 'him (Sir J. Vogel) but from the Premier-they expected he would be the guardian and advocate of education. ftom tL apeeub the Prem er had delivered,

he differed in every respect. Hβ had endeavored to show that the grant was able to bear the Btrain he proposed, namely, that if moneys were borrowed the interest could be paid out of the grant moneys given for tho purpose of oducation. Thoy could not believe that the Premier did not know that all over New Zealand the difficulties of the Education Boards wero to find moneys enough for tho establishment of new schools as they wero wanted by the progress of the country ; and, new districts getting settled year by year, the Government were subject todomands which thoy were unable to meet, and which they only met by saying they had no monoy yet. The Premier told the House that the Boards could find sufficient money to pay_ interest on money borrowed for school buildings in the district where he (Mr Ormond) came from. He was chairman of the Education Board, and for years past they had been unable to give effect to the Education Act, because tho moneys put at their disposal by rhe Government were insufficient to enable them to find school space for hundreds of children who wished to attend school. In answer to representations to the Government, the reply was thero was only a certain sum voted, and they could not provide for additional accommodation. The Government were unable to dispute the reasonableness of their demand, and yet the Premier said they were able to provide for tho interest. The fund which had been voted each year, and given over to the Government for distribution, whs distributed each year without any regard to the country or tho difficulties some Boards wero in. The distribution was on a population basis, and the money so divided that thoy saw in some districts of the colony, where in the past tho provision was not sufficient for the demands, hundreds of children of school age unable to find space. In other districts thousands of pounds were lying waste because the money was not required, and year by year there was no alteration in the rule, and the Government wont on and distributed the money on tho population busi.s, and thus they failed to find monoy to enable every child in New Zealand to got a State education ; and yet that was the boon of all others granted to tho people of this colony, and yet the Premier sat as the administrator of the Department, and failed to give effect to the odu ;ation system ; an d he was preventing the system from having scope which it ought to have if the distribution had been based, not on population, but on the real requirements as represented from, timo to time to tlio Government by the different localities. He believed the Government would have done a great deal for those districts where settlement was going on rapidly, and where school buildings wero required. A member had told the House that there were districts where tho Boards wore unable to find monoy to build schools to give children tho advantages of the system. It was quite true as regards Hawke's Bay. After representations to the Government they wore unable to have sufficient money placed at their disposal, and they had been unable to provide that which tho law said they should provide. It was no fault of the Board ;it was the fault of the Government, and the fault of the way the system was administered It was the duty of the Government to bring down and vote whatever sum was required to' give effect to the Act, and if they found the money was not sufficient, then they ought to come down and make such a proposal, and say that it was necessaiy to put tho charge for education on tho locality. That was the way the difficulty ought to be met, and the only way in which it could be met, and education conclusively and properly provided for the Boards in the colony. They were unable to give effect to their duties as things were now, and in this year now coming the sum which was proposed to be granted (£55,000,) if allocated on the population basis, would leave large portions) of the colony unable to provide school space for the children requiring such. They were unable as things were now to go on supplying schools to the outlying districts, and the money voted was just sufficient to enable them to provide a sufficient staff to carry on tho teaching, and how were they to proyide money to pay interest for borrowed money to be provided for school purposes ? Thuy were working under great difficulties, and to throw that on them would make them unable to carry on at all. The Government ought to come down, not with a aide wind like this, but with a proper basis on which real education—certain education— to all children of tho colony would be provided. The Premier reminded the member for Napier that last year the basis was not a population one. He had helped the weak districts and Hawke's Bay got £1000 in addition to the population grant. The member for Napier had refused to aid education by voting against tho County Councils and Road Boards contributing to the funds for educational purposes. At Waipukurau that had been done, and if a rich Road Board had been willing to aid the school, why should they not allow the same thing to be continued ? It was not the Government, but members, who would not face the question.

Mr Ormond would only say a word in reply to the Premier. He denied ho had misrepresented the action of the Gorernment in the way they distributed the building grant. The money was granted to Education Boards on a population basis. That was the ground stated in tho letter. It was time that the Premier did give, in answer to the earnest request of the Board, a email additional sum, but not at all sufficient to meet the demands to enable the Board in a measure to provide for the most pressing , cases, and therefore to (Mr Ormond) did not intentionally misrepresent the Government's action, nor did ho really those who were chairmen of Education Boards, who would know that the answer cent by the Department, when they asked for increased grants, was on a population basis. Hβ thought it was an improper provision to put in such a Bill as that which was proposed the other night, that Road Boards and County Councils should make educational grants. The Government ought to come down with a proper statesmanlike proposal to give effect to the Education Act, and if the Premier was as sincere as he believed he was, let him make such a proposal as will place the colony in a proper position for the future ; and in no other way could that be done than by throwing on the local bodies the charge of education.

After somo further members had spoken the clause was rejected on the voices, the Government calling for a division, but when the doors were locked and tho question again put, opponents of the clause were in such a majority en the voices that no division was taken, and the clause was negatived.