PARLIAMENT.

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 315, 30 September 1908, Page 8

PARLIAMENT.

SECOND BALLOT BILL. THE TWO HOUSES DISAGREE. ! ARBITRATION BILL. ' " INTERESTING DEBATE IN THE COUNCIL. , Tlio Council yesterday afternoon dealt with three Government Bills in Committee. The evening'sitting wag devoted to the Arbitration Bill. - ' 1 The amendments made in the Council to the Second Ballot Bill provided the House with a subject for a debate that lasted from early - in the afternoon to well on into the evening/. An unsuccessful endeavour was made by Mr. - .Massey. to have the Bill deferred for,.twelve'months. Ultimately a committee ,of .three was appointed to draw up reasons for disagreeing with tho amendments." : ' Subsequently. ,tlie House passed on to the •Loans to' I Local Bodies Act Amendment Bill, Which was under consideration in Committee until an early hour; this morning.

THE COUNCIL.

INSPECTION OF MACHINERY. The' Legislative Council met at 2.30 yesterday afternoon. ..... Tho Inspection of Machinery Amendment Bill was. committed. The amendments made by the Labour Bills Committed, . arid.: set out in yesterday's Dominion, were- moved by tho AttorneyGeneral. (Hon. Dr. Findlay). Those relating to lift attendants and notification of certain alterations .to cylinders 'were adopted.. The amendment,to Require persons in charge of boiler's .under Clause 8 to hold second-class certificates, was .' The committee's amendment as- to. class of driver ! where engines are working side by side was adopted. The Bill'was, subsequently reported, read a third; time, .aiid passed. • HARBOURS' AMENDMENT BILL. : In Committee,on tlio Harbours Amendment Bill, tho /"Attorney-General agreed to drop Clause 5; ("occupation of foreshore"). The clause was - struck ; out. •. : Prolonged, discussion took place on Clause 6, which-enables tho Governor-in-Council to authorise reclamations in. certain cases, the Hon. Mr..,. Jenkinson contending that private rights might bo invaded. : The ATTORNEY-GENERAL explained that the objcct of clause was to enable local authorities', to., reclaim tidal shallows which fere frequently evil-smelling. There was an instance, at Picton. , .: After; further' discussion, 1 .' the Minister agreed to '.drop ',the; clause, and it was . then struck out. . Tho Bill was reported, read a third time, and passed. ; ■ PUBLIC BODIES' LEASES . BILL. j The Public . Codies': Leases Bill wap recommitted.,!.. , By . ahV'a'mendment to the interpretation clause, Harbour were excluded from the proviiiahs o£,the. Bill. . Mirior famendments wore made in Clause 4, and .progress .was reported. ■ ' . " ■ The ■ Council at 5 p.m. adjourned un til 8 p.m.: • v. - ARBITRATION BILL. On the resumption of the Council at 8 p.m., i. ; . ■ , The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. ■ Dr.. Findlay) moved the second reading of tho Industrial; , Conciliation .and Arbitration Amendment Bill. In a "review of the Bill, lie stated that the definitions of. "strike" and '■'lock-out", would present great difficulty while tho, Bill, was before tho Council. Tho definitions now. in the . Bill wore not satis-factory.,;.-The provision for deduction of fines from wages had been struck out and replaced by a somewhat clumsy method of effecting the same thing through a Court of law. The new provision that a Council of Conciliation could make no recommendation unless it was unanimous would.'probably cause considerable difficulty. When the Bill had been read a second time he would;; propose to refer it to the Labour Bills Committee, not" for tho taking of further , evidence, but because a large number of '.amendment's would bo necessary in order to mako 'the Bill -fairly aiid fully express the intentions "of those responsible for it. A Labour Member. The Hon. J. T. PAUL (Otago) said he was totally opposed to strikes, because they wero against tho interests of the workers, as well as the rest of the community. ' The right to. strike was a two-edged sword, for it must be accompanied by the right to lock-out. He would be no party to the enactment of a law that was riot fair to both sides. He was dubious, of the_ success of Clauses 9 and 10/ dealing respectively with strikes without due notice in certain.industries, and the suspension of the registration of a union in consequence of a strike. He thought that moat supply should, be. excluded from the operation of. Clause 9. Considerable amendments would have to; be-made in Clause 10 to'render it workable.. He believed the Councils of, Conciliation .would, be a success, but tho power of the commissioner to disallow' any assessor should be struck out. Full power should be given to', the union concerned in' a dispute to appoint a* leading assessor. In spite of all>that.the newspapers had said, of tho failure of. arbitration, thoro would have been many.strikes in New Zealand had there been no Arbitration' Act; Tho arbitration system had' also beeriVa "blessing to unionism,- and if it were repealed scores of unions would go out of existence; in twelve months. Ho saw no need for raising tho minimum number, of workers forniing a. now union from seven to fifteen. ;He also, objected to placing workers not employedifor. the pecuniary gain of their employers outside tho conciliation and arbitration system. "It, would be very difficult to draw the line in ,some cases, such as those of gardeners. ' ' . - , The Attorney-General: Why not make the Act-apply, to-wives ? ■ . Mr. Paul admitted that tho Act would bo difficult to enforce in ,the caso of some of tho employoes in question. He thought statutory preference to unionists should be included in the Bill. There should also bo some effective provision against victimisation, and with that view he intended to move an amendment by which the onus of proof would be thrown on tho employer. The Bill did not meet with his whole-souled'approval, but he recognised it as an honest attempt to cope, with a diffi-cult-problem, and likely to do good. Tho Hon. R. A. LOUGHNAN (Wellington) thought the cancellation of registration of a union would provo to be the severest possible punishment for striking. Conciliation Councils. : The Hon. J. R. SINCLAIR (Otago) emphasised the importance of conciliation, and said ho. hoped much from tho new Councils. He supports! tho abolition of imprisonment for striking. He regretted tho excision of the exortion wage clauso. If the incentive wage system were introduced thero would be greater output, better work, and greater economy in. production. SECOND BALLOT BILL. A message was received, from tho House of Representatives; giving reasons for disagreeing- with the amendments made by the Council in the Second Ballot Bill. : Consideration of the reasons was set down for next sitting, drirThe Council rose at 11.15 p.m.

THE HOUSE.

SECOND BALLOT BILL. . The House met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday. The Second Ballot Bill was reported from the Legislative Council with the amendments made lii. that Chamber. Tho PRIME MINISTER moved that the

amendments be not agreed jto, and, that Sir William Stoward, Mr. Letlbridge, and the mover bo a committee to prepare reasons for tho disagreement. j Mr. Massey's Objection. j Mr. MASSEY (Leader of 'the Opposition) said ho would prefer that j tho Bill be dropped. He thought that (the House and tho people of the country wore beginning to know better what was in thf Bill. A .large majority of tho pcoplo in the country wero against it. He was going tp move that it bo dropped for 12 months. (Hear,! hear, and dissent.) It seemed to him the " gods " in this case had intended , tho [destruction of a good many members of tiro House .when they had framed the Bill. In moving this amendment he was thinking pf those members of the House who had isupported tho Bill in the first instance, pot knowing its principles. Ho quoted, from! tho London "Spectator," and tho "Nineteenth Century," to show that -opinions on tho operation of the second ballot ■in Germany wero that it opened up enormous possibilities for political engineering. There wore people in New Zealand who would' doj ariything in connection with political elections. (Cries of dissent.) Ho knew it, because ho had had experience of it. , j The Newspapers. i He. was glad the people of' the cbuntry had shown such opposition to| Clause 19. He recognised tho good ■ the newspapers did in many cases, and in; forming ipublic opinion on important matters. They had done good work in connection with \ this Bill. They had called attention to the fact that the clause interfered to a large extent with their liberties. The clauso should be resisted. Could anyone imagine i the Prime Ministers of Britain, Canada, and Australia submitting such a proposal to the people? They could imagine the feeling that would immediately be raised. "Eternal vigilance is tho price of liberty," was a saying , somo members of the House seemed to havo forgotten. ' Mr. RHODES (Ellesmere)' supported tho Leader of tho Opposition. ■; j Ministerial Point of View. 1 The PRIME MINISTER said his object in moving to appoint the committee ias to follow the usual course and have reasons drawn up. Ho thought it desirable to uphold what had been dono in the House in the first instance. _ The Leader of the Opposition, in moving his amoridiiient, proposed an unusual course; tho Opposition had been against tho Bill from the start. Tho reasons for their attitude- wero well known. Tile party, from tho first, had relied upou a number'of candidates, supporting the Liberal Administration, standing at tho elections, and thus giving them (the Opposition) a chance ,of a minority candidate , slipping in. There were well-known cases of this in the past. Ono co.uld easily understand why tho Opposition press (though riot all) had opposed tho principle of tho second ballot. Not all the Opposition papers, however, had opposed the Bill, and not _hll had opposed'thegag" clause. . He intended proceeding with tho Bill because lie desired majority representation. Tho Leader of the Opposition now wanted some of tho Government members to support him to kill some of them at the next general election I ,

Feeling in the Country. He (the Prime Minister), had' been urged from all' parts of tho country to stand to the Bill, and he denied' the Oppositionists' statement that the Bill was unpopular abroad. If tho leaders of the - Opposition party outside and insido the House did not Know that the Bill would bo opposed to their interests they would ■ not have opposed it. Replying to interjections, ho asserted he knew tho correctness of what he was saying. Ho was against interference with the liberty of tho press on principle. (Hear, hear.) As to Mr. Massey's opposition to Clauso 19, ho asserted lie had handed tho Leader of the Opposition a copy of tho Supplementary Order Paper, containing the obnoxious clause as an amend-: ment, ■ before it had been circulated and before the amendment was moved. Mr. Massey had been favourable. : _ .j ! Mr.'Massey denied this. ' The Primo' Minister, continued that at all events Mr. Masseyj .'.after . the amendments .had been circulated and moved, had not opposed thom, and had not called for a division. V 1 • Mr. Massey interjected that this was riot the p'osition.- ■ - ■ Not Hurried Through. Sir Joseph Ward proceeded that it was therefore: contrary to fact that Clause 19 had been hurried through tho Houso. As to freedom of utterance and of the press, each candidate would have full freedom up to the day of'tho'firtt' election; in a large electorate it'would bo impossible, for a'candidate' .to 'go over all tho ground in the timo limit between the elections and reply to,things that might bo said against him to his detriment, arid unless lie had this opportunity it would be .unfair to .allow the uso of any power, that would expose a candidate to misrepresentation. This applied to both candidates: The Premier also denied that'there was anything in tho'Bill detrimental to a poor -man having equal chances with tho rich; It was extraordinary how people could be induced ;to fight against that which was intended for .their protection. Ho hoped, notwithstanding what had been said in the press, that members would not be afraid to give effect to what they, thought was'right. While he had great respect for.many.engaged in run-, ning the press of the Dominion, he would be sorry to let them think that ono was afraid of going contrary to them in doing what ono felt to bo right. He asserted that the effect of the clause dealing ivith the press had been _ altogether over-estimated, arid the restriction was not to the' extent generally . stated.. There would not be a tying-up to anything like the oxterit. imagined. Thero. had been almost hysteric . criticism on-'tho matter. He . repeated his former remarks as to the logical necessity for tho clauso in the interests of fair play. In tho event of. the committeo he proposed to set up not formulating reasons to which the "Upper Houso would agree, the next course would bo to ask for a conference between managers of both places. Tlio Leader of the Opposition was trying to "gag" tho House. (Laughter.) Mr. MASSEY claimed misrepresentation. Ho denied tho Opposition wero against the Bill merely because it would hurt their' party. It would hurt the Government party more. _ (No! no!) Ho also said that wfat tho Prime Minister had handed him had been the "five hundred" majority proposal, which he had said would bo' less objectionable than tho original proposal. The Prime Minister insisted that he had handed Mr. Massey . tho Supplementary Order Paper as stated. Freo as the Air. Mr. T. WILFORD (Hutt) declared tho "gag" clauso would not bo effectivo. Ho personally would speak and advertise right up -to the second ballot and would risk fines and imprisonment. Ho was also against tlio "gagging" of the press. The press should bo as free as tlio air wo breathed. He said his position in tho House was proof positive that' public opinion would override undue press criticism. (Laughter.) Ho did not beliovo in tho Bill or in an alteration of the present, system. Tho Bill ho believed opened possibilities to trickery and tho working of schemes dangerous to a pure election. This would not also be an effectivo way of securing a majority rulo. -Mr. W. FR.ASER declared the country did not believe in the Bill, in fact oven the Government candidate opposing him in Wakatipu condemned it totally,

Strong Remarks. Mr. FISHER (Wellington) said that from what lie could gather outside regarding the Bill, he was certain that a majority of the members of the House was against it. . However, he supported the measure because ho bolieved it to bo tho shortest way to the Absolute Majority Bill. Ho remombered the gag cla.use being introduced at 2 a.m. When he asked tho I'riino Minister a question lie was howled down by three-quarters of tho members, who said they wanted to go home. , . Tho Prime Minister: That is not so. A member: Two or threo members. Mr. Fisher: When'l hear all this cant and humbug about tho freedom of the press it makes me laugh. I can understand this talk about thq froodom of the press if-it is to pro-

servo a press which is fighting- for morality, and liberal views, but call the gutter-snipe press of this colony—for that is ivhat most of it is—the press to bo defended in this House Mr. Poland: Name! Mr. Fisher: It would tako me half an hour to recite the names. The press of this colony, is nothing more or less than a piece of machinery set up by vested interest, which hits and kicks a man regardless of fair play. It misleads, misrepresents, and, if necessary, lies day by day;. and what can you do to touch it? AVha.t does the groat Liberal press ask for? It asks that between the first and' second ballot, while candidates shall not be allowed •to speak, the press can come along for six successive days ' and flog you, and you can't answer. Mr. Fisher asked his colleagues not to give' the press power to assassinate anybody. ■ The 1 most powerful factor in public life was the freedom of access to the platform. This was to bo denied, yet the newspapers desired the right of comment. He had known tho Wellington newspapers fairly intimately for many years, and he would not trust thom with the powers for which they wore asking. To grant that power was to court the favour of an enemy they should despise. Mr. HOGG (Masterton) spoko in favour of the freedom of the press. There was a press in Now Zealand that was an excellent reflection of thp intelligence ■of the people. Tho papers were of a character unexcelled in Australia. He supported the Bill. 1 Mr. POOLE (Auckland) said that some papers wore run in the interests of com-' bines and tho time had arrived when some consideration should be given to the matter of control for'the reason of the influence the press exercised on the community at large. Ho admitted that some papers did not come within this category. Mr. Poole went on to pass further strictures on some" sections of the press, especially in the matter of their refusal to give publicity to prohibition news. Some papers wero under the influence of the brewers. Ho supported the Bill and the socalled "gag" clause. The amendmeut of the Leader of the Opposition was lost by 48 to 18. The Voting. , The voting was as follows—Against tho amendment:—E. G. Allen, Arnold, Barber, Barclay, Baume, Buddo, Carroll, Colvin, Davey, Duncan, Ell, Fisher, Flatman, Fowlds, Gray, Greenslade, Hall, Hall-Jones, Hanan, Hogan, Hogg, Hornsby,! Houston, Izard, Jennings, Kidd, Laurenson, Lawry, M'Gowari, R, M'Kenzie, T. Mackenzie, M'Nab, Macpiierson, Millar, Ngata, 1 Barata, Poland, Poole, 11-emington, Seddon, Sidey, Stallworthyj Steward, Tanner, Thomson, Ward, Witty, Wood. ; For the amendment:—Aitken, Alison, J. Allen, Bollard,, Chappie, W. Fraser, Hardy, Horries, Lang, Lethbridge, Malcolm, Mander, Massey, Okcy, Reid, Rhodes, Rutherford, Wilford. .■

Mr. Baumo (Auckland), speaking to tho Prime' Minister's motion, hoped tho amendments would not be agreed to. Tho "five hundred" clause, struck, out by the Council, should bo adhered to at all costs, because tho adoption of that clause had largely assisted the passing. of the Bill. If , the candidates were not to have platform freedom between tho ballots the. newspapers should bo under the same restriction. "No-Confidencq" Motion. . Mr. ALLEN .(Bruce) said a cry of "no confidence" motion had been raised among members'at Mr. Massey's amendment, and Government numbers had accordingly lined up. He said the Government members had swallowed,. the-, "gag" clause and they must therefore swallow tho Bill. • . >' therefore swallow the Bill. Mr. Allen said that no amendment of the gag clause'would prove satisfactory. Indeed, the whole .Bill was objectionable. He also criticised the constitution' of the proposed ' by the Prime Minister, and suggested Mr. Massey's inclusion. As to the interim, before tho second ballot, tho Government would have, powers tho individual would not have.. Sir JOSEPH WARD rosdto deny .that the Government. had regarded the amendment by Mr. Massey as a no-confidence motion. Mr.t TANNER (Avon) expressed himself an opponent of the Bill. ■ Mr.. A. S.' MALCOLM (Clutha) said the Opposition Had' declared against the Bill because it was against the interests of tho country. Tho Hon. J. M'GOWAN supported the ■Bill. ' . Mr. HERRIES spoko against it. Ho asked why should they go"" in ' for experimental legislation for the benefit. of the Government'party, and because they were afraid of.'tho Labour vote? The Government were refusing the country the open British way of electioneering, and compelling the introduction' of the "mole" or, underground system —a most'regrettable thing. What must they think of tho Cabinet, also, asked Mr. Herries, when the Leader of the Upper House, a member of the Cabinet, introduced 'certain amendments, in the Bill 'which the Prime Minister disagrees with and proposes to strike out? Apparently they had found the amendments were not desirable, after being added iu the Upper Houso. The 'motion to set up a committee was carried. ' Reasons; Reasons for disagreement were drawn up by the committee as follow:—That the House disagreed with the amendment (the striking out. of the' majority clause) because it was not expedient to incur the expense of a second ballot when the candidate at the head cf a poll had so large a majority as to render his return almost certain. The amendment proposed to Clause 19 was not necessary. AMENDMENTS AGREED TO. , The amendments in Machinery Acts Amendment Bill made in the Legislative Council were agreed to. LOCAL BODIES' LOANS. The House went into Committee to deal with the Local Bodies' Loans Act Amendment Bill. , A somewhat. lengthy debate- ensued at Clause 19, which provides . that the Public Trustee bo the, sole Commissioner of Sinking' Funds. . The PRIME MINISTER, replying to Mr. Izard and Mr. '.Lewis, . said that harbour boards and other bodies would not have their sinking funds interfered with unless they borrowed under the Loans to Local Bodies Act. Amendments Made. Clause 19 was passed without amendment. . New. clauses were adopted on the motion, of the Prime Minister extending the Act to loans in respect of which a poll has been taken before the passing of tho Act, giving power to Taise a supplementary loan and making minor -changes. A new clause, moved by Mr. Izard, and giving power to raise a loan for paying off a previous loan, even though the rate of interest on the new loan might be higher, was adopted. ' ' A new clauso«>providing for a special roll for certain classes of polls on loans was agreed to. ' - Mr. Herries, backed up by Mr. Massey, failed to add a clause increasing tho borrowing powers of town boards. NEW BILLS. The Public Service Classification and Superannuation Amendment Bill, the Local Authorities Superannuation Bill, the Old Age Pensions Amendment Bill, tho Naval Subsidy Bill, the Mental Hospitals Reserves Bill, and the Infants Amendment Bill were brought down by Governor's Messago and : read a first time. ' Tho two first-na.med were also read a second time pro forma, and referred to the Public Accounts Committee, and the Mental Hospitals Resorvos Bill was' roferred to tho Lands Committee. The House adjourned at 1.15 a.m.

NEWS AND NOTES,

PAWNBROKERS' CHARCES. i Tho Select Committee which was appointed by the Legislative Council to consider the Pawnbrokers' Charges Bill has recommended that tho nieasuro be not proceeded with: Tho Committed hoard the evidence of Joseph MoU and W. Harris, pawnbrokers, Inspoo-

tor Ellison, and Ensign .John Drage and Brigadier Rebecca Glover, of the Salvation' Army. Two members of -the Committee, Messrs. Anstey and Macdonald, examined the Look kept by every pawnbroker in Wellington showing particulars of a.U transactions as required by tlie Pawnbrokers Act, and tlie.v concluded that- the, business, or pawnbroking in the Dominion ,>YOuld not admit of the rate of interest being reduced, as proposed in the Bill, without compelling the pawnbrokers to close their, businesses. Tho evidence of all the witnesses, went to support this finding. Inspector'.Ellison considered that as tho items-were very small and the, pawnbroker looked, after tho articles the 'charges were not extortionate. Ensign Drage thought the only cases in which pawnbrokers would charge undue interest would be where people got -fairly large sums of money, but they served the poorer class well. 1 Inspector Ellison thought, that 50 per cent., and Ensign .Drage thought more than 50 per cent., of the advances,went in drink, but thoy both considered that .pawnbroking should not be done away with, as.it was of assistance to many poor but deserving peoplo. Brigadier Glover had heard of nothing to lead hor to believe that it. would be .better if pawnbroking were done , away with.

IN SEARCH OF A QUORUM. Yesterday morning, very :'early, the Government were anxious to ' pass the first item on. the Public Works, Estimates. At times during the discussion"; 60 out of the 80 members of the House were ; conspicuous by their absence, leaving' less than a quorum present. Mr. Massey ,moved to report progress, objecting to the late 1 sitting. The result of tho division ' was ' against Mr. Massey by 17 to 10. Iff.'Massey said he and his followers had 'only now to leave the chamber and the business would come to, a standstill for want of a quorum. He, however, declined to do that. "The ■ Government whips were scared, and sent out m'essengers to beat up a few extra Government supporters. Their tactics came hard' upon one Wellington citizen, whose slumbers were rudely disturbed —between two ant] three a.m. —by a' loud knocking.. 1 at. the front door, and the violent ringing of .the bell. The whole household was. disturbed. The owner of the house, , scuttling downstairs "in pyjamas, was'faced at the door by a "breathless messenger, who demanded, on behalf' of the Government, Arnold's' 'immediate, presence at the House.'. The. citizen smiled sweetly and murmured blessings on tho Government, and , returned. io_ _bed. Mr. Arnold was discovered later, writing letters in the Parliamentary building'. After all there was no need for the bother.. A Government quorum was present' all the time, though not perceived, for two!members had voted with the' Opposition, and .the Speaker made up the quorum. .^ THE MINERAL TAX. The deputation of coal-mine owners, quarry owners, and brickmakers, tliat waited on the Hon. R. M'Nab on Monday,;, saw the Prime Minister yesterday. Ho- promised to give their request, as to the removal, of the mineral tax so far as local bodies are .concerned, full consideration. At the same: time he pointed out that there might be difficulty in effecting an amendment of tho law this session, owing to the .pressure of work and the little time left for. Parliament to accomplish it: • ; , ' . "Tlio roads in the backblocks are so bad that the hon. gentleman admits, it' is impossible to get round them .in a'motor-car 1-'— Mr. Herries. , Many members must'have envied Mr. Ngata on Monday evening. --j "Whether we' Native members get votes for our districts or not,"'he., said, in discussing the Public Works Statement, "our' constituents don't take us to task or complain.' Hon. members, I have noticed, are very concerned as'to the votes they get." - ' :.i. ' ; "One' of the most harebrained 1 schemes 1 ever heard of. -I don't,think any local body should -lie! 'alli'wed'to : liiiti:iiipt'Jit.? WUUSe Hon. J. E.' Jenkinson on the Evans Bay reclamation scheme.' , The Statutes Revision Committee reported to the Legislative Council yesterday that, in its opinion, there was not sufficient time to deal witli so important-a' measure as the Judiciary Bill this session.