THE COUNCIL.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 309, 23 September 1908, Page 9

THE COUNCIL.

SECOND BALLOT BILL. " CAC ". CLAUSE; AGAIN DEBATED." ■ Tho Legislative Council met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday. ' " The ATTORNEY-GENERAL- (Hon. Dr. Findlay), in moving the third reading of tlio Second Ballot Bill, said lie. found that, underthe machinery of the Bill, seamen would bq able to vote ,at a second ballot just as at ah ordinary general election. It would, therefore, be unnecessary to recommit the Bill. The 'Hon. W. C. .F. CARNCROSS (Taranaki) said that lib regarded the second ballot as an interesting experiment, and he had no objection to it. The'protest he had.made, was against the limitation, of the freedom, of the press and public liieeting. ' He cprir' sidered that those clauses would not: add lustre to the record of the-Liberal.party. The Hon. R, A. LOUGHNAN (Welling-, ton), said he .Hact opposed 1 Clause 19i..but as : . his efforts had been fruitless he-would'not allow that to.",prevcnt him > from supportingthe third reading of a'Bill which he regarded as of great importance, and calculated to oonfer real,..benefits. ... /

> The Hori. !; J. T. PAUL (OtafeoV said, ho feared that, seamen .would in practice be disfranchised.- at the second ballots) hecatuso they :would, not have time to ,obtain a'second, electoral right. . - • ~Y , Tho,.AitorneyrGeneral: They won't return: the first. ;They will keep it 1 an'd-use.'it' again.' Mr.'./ Paul: -1 should ■•like.;-the: Hon. thb Attorney-General; to Explain .how', tliey can use>the,same .electoral.right'twice.. As long, as they are not- going- to .15e disfranchised at the second ballot;-'-! '.am,'.satisjffed oh that point, ■ Proceeding,-. Mr. - Paul Repeated his . protests against. the flnterference with!' the freedom of'.the pressand the jight. of public meeting. /In spite, of.-the modification that had been made in tho';!clause,'it was still_ to hisimihd objectionable.,; The ( :bnly good thing about the measure vras fhat it would concentrate attention on the problem of" representa'. tion. . v '~ *'W.itji the!pfist |fntentjohs." ; The Hori.:;,O.r.SAMUEL' (Taranaki), said that. ; .if. Section; 19" were necessary to the success'.of-itits'j'sccdiid r ba:llot ' system, ; that! was ;onough.-ito' 'coflddmn . the Bill.'-. He was porry that-tjhore ivas; to;bp.no further opportunity for/reconsidering the. Bill, especially, as he.kriew that'a'-'very large proportion of the memfiors of tho other House *woiild:'liko to throw out,; Section 19. . He recognised that ; -those who'--''had put the Bill forward had done so with the best'intentions,' but ho believed'that 1 after one- general election both parties' would'-agree'that it was a failure.The'/Recommittal, Moved. ; The.Hon.-J. RIGG-(Wellington) said that if the press had concentrated .its attack on the queation.of public meeting rather than on the '.of the press itself, they could have awakened .such. a . widespread feeling of indignation,that' the proposal would nave been dropped. (Hear, hear.)' The members of tho other House, influenced no doubt by the discussions in the Council and the articles in the .press; had;'thrown' out &hother " gag " clausp inithe .'Arbitration Bill. He moved the recommittal of the Bill for tho further consideration of Clnuso 19. . ' -

The Hon. Sir MAURICE O'RORKE (Auckland)'said lio could not' conscientiously vote' for a Bill which wbuld. interfere with the right of the people to 'discuss the imerits of candidates lip to tli'o last moment. Still moro; was; he -unable to vote for a Bill that, interfered with the right of the press -toinstruct , and adviso tho people. He was therefore obliged to vote against tho Bill, and he greatly regretted that it had been introduced, by the.. Government, rather than by- some other party holding'different vieivs. He TVould vote, for the amendment, hopingthatiif nothing else could be done, they would' at least bo able to protect the press from interference. - :■- - Hon.'Dr, Findlay and the Press, The' ATTORNEY-GENERAL ' said tho amendment was one-to kill the Bill. The Bill had been very fully discussed, both in the Council and the other House,, and by> the press. He admitted that much that - was reasonable, had been urged .against . Clause 19, but he thought the preponderance of' reason was in favour-of the clause. .The other House had declared in favour of tile clause, and oven now would-havo. the fullest opportunity of reconsidering the matter. Some Councillors had erected a,phrase into a fetish. Already reticence was imposed bylaw upon the.press in regard to cases before, the Court. To talk about the freedom.of the press and to ignore tho reasons for,the clause was not treating it fairly. A section of tho press opposed the Government in everything, and that section had been as outspokon and as bitter oh this question as they would expect it to be. True, several other papers, which usually supported the Government, had,been against it in.this matter; but he would ask the Council to admit that there was as much honesty and as much political experience behind this clause as there was behind any leading article.' It was no suddenly conceived idea. It had been thought over and over by men who desired to further promote honest Liberalism. Ho hoped members would recognise that the Bill deserved to pass its third reading.Who is the Evil Genius? The Hon. G. JONES (Otago) said ho was going to vote for the amendment, but not for killing the Bill; He asked tho Council to exercise its functions as a-revising Cham-' ber. There had lattly been several of these proposals to interfere with tho liberties of the people. Who was the evil genius? The Hon. J. B. CALLAN (Otago) supported the amendment, which he did not think would kill tho Bill. The Hon. 0. SAMUEL (Taranaki) objected particularly to the sub-section under which jurisdiction under Clause 19 was given to stipendiary magistrates, whose position made it passible for political influences to bo brought to bear upon them. He would not suggest, that tho present Government would be a party to anything of the sort. He strongly supported the motion for recommittal. The Last Ditch. The Hon. C. M. LUKE (Wellington), while approving of the sccond ballot system, asked the opponents of Section "19 to put up a noble light for freedom, now, in tho last ditch. The clause,• if passed, would bo largely ignored, because there wero thingsi mure esteemed than obedience to statute law! Tii Hon. J. T. PAUL (Otago) urged that there could bo no possibility of the Bill-being killed by recommittal. The Hon. J. R. SINCLAIR (Otago), referring to Mr. Samuel's-remarks, said he held that there rtould be a right of'appeal from tho decision of a magistrate under-sect-ion 19.

The Hon. W. W. M'CARDLE (Auckland) repeated his previous arguinonts to show the necessity of silencing tho press and candidates ill large country districts between the two ballots. A Close Division. The amendment to recommit the Bill was lost by 15 votes against IG. The division was as follows: — . ' Against tho amendment (16)—Loughniui,, Trask, Kelly, Thompson, Harris, Wi Pero, Anstey, Daldey, M'Cardlo, George, Marshall, Holmes, Beehan, Baillio, Sinclair, Findlay. For the amendment (15)—Barr, Paul, Rigg, Jones, Jenkinson, Carncross, Scotland, Collins, Miller, Johnston, O'Rorke, Stevens, Ormond, Callan, Samuel. Tho.third reading was then carried on the voices. MANAWATU RAILWAY BILL. • The Wellington and Manawatu Railway. Purchase Bill, was committed. The Hon. J. RIGG had given notice to move to add tho following now. sub-clauso to Clause 27: — " (3) Every person so appointed shall forthwith be classified in accordance with the Government Railways Act, 1908, and for the purpose of such classification, but not otherwise, tho number of years any such person has been in tho service of tho company shall bo deemed to be the number of years such person has been in the service of the Department prior to the date of isuch appointment.". Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he had 'not had time to study_the amondnient, which had only' just been' circulated. Ho would, however, consider lit, and, if necessary, move to; recommit the. Bill. Fie also-promised to give consideration to a point raised by the Hon. Mr. Samuel as to whether any amendment was required to secure the rights of persons who might have claims for compensation in respect of any of tho lands to be taken, over by ,tho Government from tho company: • Mr.'Rigs did not move his amendment, and the Bill was reported without amendment'. <• i . : ■ INSPECTION OF MACHINERY.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. Dr. Findlay)' ■ moved tho second reading of the Inspection of Machinery Amendment Bill. The Hon.' C. M. LUKE said he hoped the Bill would not make it necessary for steam boilers used for cooking purposes to be in charge of a certificated man. , The Hon. J. E. JENKINSON (Wei mgton)' mentioned other, points for consideration. He suggested that the Bill should be .referred to the Labour Bills Committee. .There were people in Wellington who wished to give evidence. ' The Hon. J. RIGG (Wellington) endorsed this suggestion.-' ' He had received letters from tho Marino Engineers' • Institute, and the Engine Drivers' Union suggesting amendments in the measure. The suggestion to refer the Bill to the Labour Bills Committee was also supported by : tho Hon. J. T. Paul, and was accepted by tho Attorney-General. _ / .The Bill was read a second time, and referred to the Labour Bills Committee. - - * t ' . • PUBLIC BODIES' LEASES BILL. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hon. Dr. Findlay) moved the second reading of the Public Bodies' Leases Bill, which had already passed :.the Lower House. The Hon. 0. SAMUEL (Taranaki) said the Bill had been carefully drafted, and would bo a .vory useful measure, but ho wished it miglit, bo referred to a committee of t members who had had special experience in the matter ,of leases of public bodies. . The Hon. J. ANSTEY said ho was going to.speak as one who had been, unfortunately, for many years-a tenant of agricultural-land undor a public body. He regretted that the Government' had not approached the subject in a statesmanlike manner.' ■'Thb debate was interrupted at 5 p.m. by the adjournment of the Council until 8 p.m. "Playing with the Question." .. Continuing -his speech 1 -.at-"- tho'} evening sitting, tho Hon. J.. Anstey (Canterbury) said that the State shouldisee-that all land vested in public. ..bodies was properly cultivated. Ho objected to tho Bill, which simply, -played -with- -a • very important - question, but he would not opposo it. Tho best course to adopt - would bo to refer tho measure back to. be -redrafted, or to a committee for full inquiry. The Hon. E.~ C. J. STEVENS (Cantorbury) agreed with tho previous speaker-that -tho Bill should bo reconsidered.

Tho Hon. vW. AY. M'CARDLE (Auckland) •favoured the principle' of compulsory improvements,- for which, compensation.- should bo allowed at the expiration of tho term of the. lease. 'All leases should,'ho thought, contain a clause- providing for the regular working of. the land. Ho -would vote for the measure, but -would iiko to see it referred to a committee. ■ - The Hon. J.. R. SINCLAIR (Otago) felt that the ' question was worthy of greater .consideration. The Hon. C. M. LUKE (Wellington) considered tho proposal for a uniform system of leases an admirable one. t Tho Hon. A.' BALDEY (Otago)-said that no public body ought to give compensation in respect of the cultivation of a property. ! The Hon. J. B. CALLAN (Otago) thought that lessees should get valuation for buildings as well as for other improvements at •the end of tho term of tho leaso. . The Hon. G. JONES (Otago) held that tenants should be more liberally treated' than was proposed under the measure. Against Delay.' The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in reply,' said the Ml did not seek to radically change the leasing.powers of-local bodies. That such a step might bo necessary he would not deny. If it wero 'not that tho end of the session was in sight—within a few days he hoped—he would have agreed to the Bill being, referred to, a committee, with a view to the insertion of a number of suggestions, which' undoubtedly would be of great value. ■Ho submitted* however, that there was enough good in the Bill to justify-tho Council in passing it-this session. Tho whole question could afterwards be gone into more fully. Tho second reading was agreed to. IMPOUNDING AMENDMENT BILL. On tho motion of tho Attorney-General, tho Impounding Amendment Bill,' which had come from the Lower House, was read a second time. ' FIRE BRIGADES AMENDMENT BILL. .Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in moving tlio sccond reading of tho Eire Brigades Amendment-Bill, said some of its provisions had been asked for by the fire boards and , some 1 by Inspector Hugo, whoso services had ' been already found to bo of great value, especially to some of tho smaller.fire boards. Dealing with the clause which provides that no firb board shall bo dissolved without a poll of tho .ratepayers, Dr. Findlay said experience had'shown the possibility of a firo.. board being extinguished by a catch vote in tho Council. Bodies having such important interests in their care should have some stability. Tho now borrowing provisions had > been found desirable in practice, but tho-limit of £3000 might have to bo raised. In regard to the clause giving power to tho inspector to call out a brigade, the idea was that the ordinary superintendent should conduct evolutions at the request of the inspec-' tor. Some misapprehension had arisen on this point. . Tho second reading was agreed to after a short discussion. The Council roso at 9.33 p.m.