THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 309, 23 September 1908, Page 9

THE HOUSE

THO ARBITRATION BILL. DISCUSSION IN COMMITTEE. The' Speaker fook tho chair at 2.30 p.m. The House, after spending the greater part of the afternoon in discussing committoo reports on petitions, at 5.10 o'clock passed to tho further consideration of the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Aet Amendment Bill. Appeals. At Clause 19, dealing with the appeal from tlic magistrate to the Court of Arbitration,

Mr. WILFORD (Hutt) suggested that tho clause bo held over so that the Minister could look into it. A provision should bo inserted to meet tho Declaratory Judgments Act, under which any person, before lie did an act, might apply to the Supremo Court for a declaratory order, which was binding upon all parties as of a judgment in an action. Tho Declaratory Judgments Act also provided that any decision of the Privy Council should be binding in all Courts, of New Zealand, which plainly included tho Arbitration Court. He suggested that the Minister, should specify whether the Declaratory Judgments Act should or should not apply. Tho Hon. J. A. Millar: It does not apply at all. Mr. Wilford: Will you provido a general right of appeal on law and fact? The Minister: It is in tho Bill now. • The. MINISTER intimated that lie would introduce a clause.making it clear that the Declaratory Judgments Act should not apply. . Mr. BARCLAY (Dunedin) moved to place the appeal under the Justices of tho Peace Act, instead of undor the Magistrates' Courts Act. The object of this was to allow appeal for fines of £5, instead of largo sums, for points of fact or points of law, as under the Magistrates' Courts Act. Tho MINISTER, for LABOUR said there was no intention to allow an appeal for £2, £3, and £5 fines. At present breaches wont direct to tho Arbitration Court, and were settled without appeal. Throughout tho country there had been a cry to take away all criminal procedure from the Act and retain the civil process. Hero in this Bill the civil side of the Magistrates' Court procedure had been adopted, and there was no intention of allowing any appeal beyond that. Appeal? Mr. IZARD (Wellington) said tho curse of tho Bill and its procedure was that it involved too much law, too much Court, and too many lawyers. (Cries of "Hear, hear"). If a magistrate was to dccidc whether a fine should bo imposed let them abide by his decision. Ther? should be no appeal at all. The desiro was to got back to conciliation. ■ Mr. ARNOLD-(Dunedin) hoped the amendment would not bo accepted. The original desiro had been that the Arbitration Act should be a law within itself. It was only after it was widened later that the legal trouble was introduced. From communications ho had received from labour organisations the desire seemed that there should be no appeal at all. Ho believed tho employers were also desirous that all appeal should bo taken from tho Bill.

' Aftor further discussion, Mr. Barclay agreed to withdraw his amendment in favour of a new proviso moved by Mr. Guinness in the direction of giving the right of appeal on the quostion of law and of fact in all cases in which the amount claimed exceeded £5. Tlie' Minister said ho could not accept the amendment. Note the Answer! Mr.' GUINNESS said he hoped members would noto that answer. It meant that the Minister wished to givethe right of appeal to an employer and , withhold it from tho worker. That was a monstrous proposal. If the right of appeal were given let it bo givon fairly and squarely to both sides. Ho hoped thoso members_ who, in fear and trembling, spoke against the > appeal would realiso what they were doing. Mr. BAUME (Auckland) disagreed entirely with that view'. Ho said appeals wero possiblo on both sides under the Bill. Mr-. IZARD protested with heat against being accused of "fear and trembling." Tho MINISTER denied flatly that ho was giving .something to the employer which he was denying to the worker. Ho knew what was at the back of this. A Member: What isP The Minister's Retort. . The MINISTER said it was because tho question of legal costs would bo affocted. It was sought to settle disputes without allowing tho lawyers tho power in tho Court anil to carry, the cases on to the Court of Arbitration. They, were absolutely barred hero. "You can't catch me on that lay," said the Minister. . A Member.: What about tho inspector of awards?. The Minister explained how the inspector of awards appealed. Ho added he desired .as much as possiblo to save tho employers and the employees. Mr. BAUME said ho had defended tho Minister against what ho had thought was an unfair charge from the member for Grey. But he thought.the Minister in what ho had just said had forgotten himself in the heat of the moment, and said something that might como perhaps from an irresponsible member, but not from a Minister. Thero wero lawyers in tho House, and it would surely be recognised that they wore actuated by other motives than the mere making of money; Ho resented the statement tho more from tho Minister since ' he respected him highly. Tho MINISTER said ho hadn't spoken in the heat of the moment. He had not intended to oast reflections upon tho lion, gentleman or his profession. The member for Grey had drawn him by saying ho was giving something to the employer ho was denying to the worker. Mr. IZARD said he held his profession jn as high regard as anyone, but the Arbitration Court was not the place, for, lawyers. Peace. Mr.; WILFORD: "Peace, peace, beautiful peace." (Laughter.) Mr. GUINNESS said i'hen ho spoke he had had in his mind tho technical advantage the Bill would give to employers, which, ho had thought tho Minister didn't perceive. The Minister 'said he was sorry if he had misunderstood tho lion, gentleman. The amendment was lost by 49 votes to 14. The MINISTER'S clause was then put, with -the addition that the provisions of the Declaratory Judgments Bill will be excluded from the operation of tho Bill. The clause was adopted. - Attachment Clause. The MINISTER then moved Clause 20 as follows (amended since the introduction of the Bill). ; "The judgment in any such action shall be enforcablo in tho same manner as a judgment for debt or damages in the Magistrate's Court, and in no other manner: Provided that notwithstanding anything to tho contrary in Section 27 of the Wages Protection and Contractors' Liens Act, 1908, where application is made in pursuance of any such judgment for the attachment of tho wages of any worker an order of attachment may be made in respect of the surplus of his wages abovo the sum of two pounds a week, in tho case of a married worker or widow or widower with children, or abovo the sum of ono pound a week in the case of any other worker. Provided also that for the purposo of any such application for- attachment, all wages which may-at any time thereafter 'become due to tho judgment debtor by any employer, although they aro not yet earned or owing, and whether they become duo in respect of ally contract of servico. existing at the time of tho application or made at any later time, shall bo deemed to bo a debt accruing to tho judgment debtor within the meaning of tho provisions of tho Magistrates' Courts Act, 1908; relating to the attachment of debts; ami on the making of any order of attachment in respect of such wages tho employer shall pay into Court from time to time, as thoso wages become due and payable, such sum as is sufficient to satisfy the charge imposed thereon by tho order of attachment."

The question was raised whether hardship would not bo inflicted upon single mcu supporting mothers or sisters. . The MINISTER said the Department had never yet placed the screw upon any men in the matter of payment of fines. ]f tliey came along with oyer so small a sum it would he acceptcd in mitigation. It was the defiant lawbreaker they wanted to have the power over. The men who supported mothers or sisters woro not the men to shirk the responsibilities of payment. However, ho was agreeable to inserting provisions as suggested. • Jlr. GUINNESS wanted to know why there should be a difference under this Act from the general law regarding the collection of fines. Tho MINISTER said the process of tho general law was for tho collection of debts voluntarily allowed to bo oontracted.

Mr. BAUME emphasised tho importance of retaining tho clause, since it was an enforcement of tho law. This enforcement was necessary since there was a common feeling that in tho matter of fines tho employer suffered where tho employee might escape. Mr. IZARD would like more elasticity given to tho clause. Some people might be unable to pay £2 or £1 per week as the case may bo. There should ba some discretion left to the magistrate to judge what a man was ablo to pay. Tho clause was carried. Clause 21 was carried Clauses 21a, 22, 23, and 24 were adopted practically without discussion. CONCILIATION—FART 111. Conciliation Boards, • Clause 25 dealt with the abolition of Conciliation Boards. Mr. BARCLAY snoko in favour of Boards of Conciliation, and showed how they could bo improved. The clause was. carried. Clause 26 was also adopted. Clause 27 deals with .the constitution of the Councils of Conciliation. The amended clause has already been published as appear-, ing on a supplementary Order \Paper. It contains' the following proviso:—"Provided that if in any case, by reason of the special circumstanc2s of that case, tho Commissioner is of opinion that it is impracticable or inexpedient that all the assessors should bo persons so engaged or employed, he may appoint as an assessor, on the recommendation of the applicants, one person who is not engaged or employed in any industry in respect of which the dispute has arisen, together with two other persons who are so engaged or employed." Mr. MASSEY drew attention to the new proposal of the Minister to permit the names of three persons to bo recommended as assessors. He said this would make the Councils to consist of seven members, which would make them unwieldy. Assessors. Tho MINISTER, after lengthy discussion, agreed to alter tho clause to read that "not moro than" three persons should be recommended from each side as assessors. The clause as amended was then adopted. Clause 28 was. passed. Mr. J. ALLEN objected to sub-section 4 ■of Clause 29, which gives tho Commissioner power to appoint assessors under certain circumstances, on tho ground that- this involved compulsory conciliation, which was certain to be a failure.

Tho sub-section was accepted by 47 to 5. J)r. CHAPPLE moved to add to Clause 29 a new sub-clause that the assessors should in each case vacate officb on the settlement of tho disputo or its reference to tho Court. The sub-clauso was rejected as unnecessary, a.nd the clause adopted. CJauso 30, providing for tho payment of the assessors out of the Consolidated Fund, was objected to by Mr. J. Allen. Tho latter said conciliation would be exploited for the sake of the emoluments. Tho MINISTER pointed out ohe unfairness of expecting working men to go without pay. ' Clauso 30 was carried. In discussing Clause 31, which deals with tho powers and duties of the conciliation councils, Messrs. J. Allen and Herrics said that if the assessors were to be paid it would bo to their advantage tu continuo sitting and learning evidenco for tho full month. Clauso 30, sub-clause 1, was amended to read : 1 'The decision of the assessors present at any meeting shall be deemed to bo tho decision of council." After passing up to Clause 34, tho Houso roso at 2.5 a.m.