I.- 9a.

76

[g. t booth.

22a. Under section 48 a failure to comply with any requirement made would make the Board liable to a tine of ,£5 a day? —That is in all the Orders in Council. 23 So there is no want of means to enforce the Orders in Council? —No. 24. Coming to clause 5, subsection (c), in connection with the number of passengers to be carried, what do you say about that?—l have the same to say about that generally as 1 have said about the conduct of the business in other respects. We are there to conduct the undertaking to the best advantage of the public, from the point of view of finance and public convenience, and 1 think the local authority ought to be the one to fix the number of passengers a given car should carry, and to make such regulations as it thinks lit to prevent dangerous overcrowding *25. What about the necessity at rush times is there any necessity to take more passengers during rush hours? —Yes. 26 And is there any danger in overcrowding so long as the passengers are kept off the footboards? —There is not much danger Under the best traffic-conditions you cannot eliminate risks altogether It is not safe for a man to walk across the street, because he might be knocked down. I do not think there is any reason to treat the cars differently from the ordinary risks run bycitizens. If there is any accident due to the neglect of the Board, we have to suffer for it. To say that you will not carry people unless you can provide seats for them is only to invite breaches. 27 What about strap-hangers?—l have never seen a service yet without strap-hangers. 28. Have you seen the Brooklyn cars in New York? —That kind of thing would not be tolerated in New Zealand. 29 What is it?—At rush hours at Brooklyn Bridge you cannot get within hundreds of yards of the car without fighting your way—that is, at 5 o'clock in the day That is going on all over the world. 30 Are the complaints about overcrowding from the passengers who are left behind or the passengers inside? —Those who are left behind. Those who are compelled to stand take it as the natural order of things. Generally there is no overcrowding in New Zealand. .Relatively the conveniences are greater You see far more overcrowding in New York or Chicago, or in the English towns, than you see in New Zealand. 31 For all the "disadvantage, the public prefer to be allowed to stand up in the cars than to be left behind? —Yes. It is impossible to provide sufficient cars when a shower comes on. You cannot create cars out of nothing If you put on relief cars everybody will crowd on to the first car if they possibly can. 32 Subsection (2) of section 5, with regard to the regulations overriding-Orders in Council?— In connection with that 1 want to emphasize this : that the district we represent has made itself responsible for the repayment of considerable loans used for the construction of the tramways; that those loans have been raised on the basis of our Order in Council, and form part of the contract ; that when loans are being raised a very searching inquiry is made as to what the Orders in Council are by the people who propose to lend the money It seems to me that to override these Orders in Council by an Act which enlarges the powers of the Government is, to all intents and purposes, a breach of faith with those people with whom contracts have been made, and I do not think the Legislature should put the Board in any such position as that, or the people who have lent the money Supposing we want to negotiate a loan at the present time —as we are doing— if the parties to whom we are applying get hold of this Tramways Amendment Bill and think there is a probability of it becoming law, it will considerably modify their views in regard to 'finding the money 33. Mr T E Taylor} I think you have Road Boards which have to find money?— Yes. They can refer to clause 3 of the Bill, where on the report of an inspector the Minister can order any alteration, repairs, or additions to the tramway Well, he might order extensive additions and alteration to the lines or the plant. The Board would be entirely at his mercy, and the lenders of the money would be subject to that important variation in the basis of the loan contract. 34. Mr Young ] That brings us down to clause 6, the Appeal Board : what have you to say about that?—l think that is the most objectionable clause in the whole Bill. 35 How would it affect the discipline of your men ?—I cannot imagine, if the final control of your men is taken out of your hands and put into the hands of an outside authority, how discipline can be maintained at all." It can only be maintained as a matter of grace, and if there is a failure in discipline you have a failure in efficiency inevitably Disratings, dismissals, and fines are not, as a rule, the result of one particular occurrence, but, generally speaking, are the result of a series of occurrences which, taken individually, are not of very great importance probably You may take a particular class of offences. The Committee is aware that certain of the employees on a tramway system are brought into pretty close contact with the public in the general discharge of their duty with both sexes and men and women of all ages. Complaints have been made in the service where such-and-such a conductor was offensive to a lady or girl. Inquiry is made, of course, and the chances in such cases are that the evidence is not convincing enough to warrant the Board in disrating the man. But we get another complaint, and another, and another, each one giving weight to the first, until there is a number of them sufficient to convince the Board that the man does offend women and girls, and something has to be done. Supposing he was discharged, for instance, and appealed to the Appeal Board for reinstatement, would not the Tramway Board be placed in a very weak position ? In such cases we cannot bring evidence, you cannot bring the lady along to say that such-and-such an offence was committed. You could not put them to the indignity of giving evidence of that kind, and if you got them there it would not weigh very much with the Appeal Board, because the offence might consist of a look in the man's eye or a suggestive gesture and you could not prove anything at all. The Board not being able to bring evidence what would happen? In a case of that kind the man might be reinstated, and in such a case I think the Board might have to be reinstated as well as the man. Of course, the Committee