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181 llieu you think, do you, that the Appeal Board should have the right to promote from the position of motorman to the position of inspector a person who, in the opinion of those responsible for the management of the tramways, would not be a suitable man for the office? —I think they should have the power to review any promotion, to see if it was right or not. 182. They have some right of appeal in Sydney under the statute : are you aware that there was a tramway strike in Sydney recently?— Yes, in 1908 183 A very big strike, was it not?— Yes. 184. The existence of the right of appeal was not sufficient to prevent that? —I was over there after the strike, but I have forgotten the details. 185. Mr O'Shea.] I think you said the men were satisfied with the Appeal Board in Sydney? —I cannot say whether I did or not. I may have. 186. You said that owing to that Appeal Board they had the best discipline you had ever seen ? —Yes, I remember I said that. 187 Some of the motormen were examined on this Bill last year in regard to these certificates : I suppose there is no suggestion on your part that this is going to make the business of motormen a close corporation ? —I do not see that it is more so than in the case of an engineer, a teacher, or a lawyer 188. A gentleman named Fair© gave evidence about the certificates before last year's Committee. He was asked, " You do not think the local authority is not sufficiently large in its sphere of operations?" and he replied, "No, the position is this that if we had a Government examination, and were issued certificates, that would give us a legal standing which we do not now possess, and would also give the Government the right to hold an inquiry at any time they thought fit. If the view was taken that a motorman was to blame for an accident, you can understand the position. We have a conductor who is now serving or has just served six months' imprisonment for manslaughter A charge of that nature may be sheeted home to any motorman at any time, and I say this : that at the present time the City Councils and the companies, under the present issue of certificates, can, instead of sacking a man and giving him a legal right for wrongful dismissal, disrate him, and avoid all that sort of thing. The reason is that if they can fasten the blame on to the motorman they can do away with heavy claims for damages." Do you agree with that statement of Mr Faire's?—lt is rather comprehensive. I would rather have it condensed. 189 Do you think that Government certificate would help you at all in a case of manslaughter? —It would give us a standing in the eyes of the public. 190. Would you be any better off personally by having that Government certificate? Do you think your authorities would try to disparage you in a case of manslaughter if they were asked to give evidence about you? —I do not think they would, but perhaps I hold a higher standard than a good many of the motormen. 191 Supposing the Government certificate is given, it will have to be given on a very low standard to allow every man to come in?—We desire it to be a good standard. We want competent men, not incompetent men. 192. Have you competent men under present circumstances? —Yes. 193 Are there incompetent men in your service?—l am not prepared to make that statement. 194. You say that the question of favouritism has arisen in the company? —Yes. 195. Do you think the Government is absolutely without favouritism?—l have no knowledge of that. 196. Have you ever heard of the Marine scandal, and the granting of a certificate to a man named Jones to take a steamboat out of the harbour? —I have not heard of that. 197 There is power in this Bill enabling the Minister to cancel certificates? —Yes. 198. Do you not think you should have power in the Bill to appeal against this decision?— I think we should, but I have confidence in the Minister 199 Supposing my friend Mr Fraser, instead of Mr McKenzie, was Minister of Public Works, would you have the same confidence in the Minister then ?—Yes, I am perfectly satisfied in trusting the Minister, whatever side he belongs to. He is generally a competent man to manage his own business, whatever it may involve. 200. You have gone back to 1902, to the cases of Jackson and Comer, and said Comer ran into a car and was discharged : have you ever known a competent man to run into a car and be discharged?— Yes. 201 A man named Veart ran into a tram-car and was discharged?—He had a rear collision, and was disrated. 202 Was he a competent man I —l could not say. 203 What happened to Jackson?—He was discharged. 204. What for? —Drunkenness. I do not think he was dismissed for having an accident. 205. He was put on without training? —He had no training. He was put in the barn to shovel sand. 206. As to clause 3, you have stated that the Government are the best judges of the reasonable requirements of the traffic?— Yes. 207 You have heard of Mr Alexander, of Dunedin, have you not? —Yes. 208. He is a fairly good man, and turned the tramway system from a non-paying to a paying concern ?—I do not know 209. If Mr Alexander has given evidence here that you have to watch the tramways and take tallies over long periods of time —to be continually watching and changing the time-tables to suit the convenience of the public—would you contradict him ?—No. 210. Do you consider the Minister could, without duplicating the staff of the Auckland tramways, meet the reasonable requirements of the traffic?—The Auckland Tramway Company have had to put on cars under pressure by the City Council.

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