I.—3b.

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[T. I'ARATA.

say I have not obtained this information second hand, because I heard it from Haereroa, Karetai, Matiahi Tiramorehu, and others of the principal men who took a leading part in the hapus from Kaiapoi to Moeraki, and who were present on that, occasion. Well, Kemp having expressed himself as I have stated, the Maoris discussed the position amongst themselves, and said, "Well, we had better accept his proposal"—meet him —"because we might be detained as prisoners on this man-of-war," and they were on the man-of-war at the time. They said, "Very well; then we will describe to you the boundaries of the land which is to pass to 3-011 for this £2,000 you offer." And these were the boundaries: Kaiapoi, Otumatua to the coast, following the coastline to Purehurehu, from there westerly to Maungaatua, from there to Maungatere, which is known to Europeans as Mount Grey, and from there back to Kaiapoi, closing the boundary. Roughly speaking, at a general estimate those boundaries would contain, say, 7,000,000 acres; but the land on the inland side of that boundary still remained to the Maori owners at that time. The land outside of the boundary I have given right across to the west coast was never sold by the Maori owners, and I will explain to members of the Committee what I mean. Understanding that this land only which is contained within the boundaries that I have described was the land that they were then parting with by sale, the Maoris signed the deed of sale, at the same time stipulating that their cultivations, kaingas, fisheries, and other food-workings and sources of food-supplies were to remain in their possession out of the lands so sold, and that when the land came to be surveyed a return was to be made to them, of definite portions of the land so sold by them, for the support of themselves and children and descendants after them. And I shall presently, I think, be able to satisfy the Committee that I am speaking correctly in regard to these contentions. I further say that I entirely indorse all that was said by the gentleman who appeared before this Committee as the lawyer representing the Ngaitahu people some da}?s ago—Mr. Hosking. I will state now the boundaries of the land they were then selling—these are the boundaries I have already given from Kaiapoi to Purehurehu to Maungatere. That is the boundary on the inland side which was agreed upon by the elders at the time of the arrangement of the sale, Subsequently the Maoris discovered that Mr. Kemp had taken the boundaries of the land which he claimed to have purchased as far inland as Piopiotahi or Whakatipuwaitai—that is, Milford Sound. It will be noticed that in the map of Mr. Kemp's purchase it does not carry his boundary as far as the west coast —it does not cany it any further than Maungaatua in a westerly direction, but simply stops at Milford Sound. I think that will satisfy the Committee that Mr. Kemp did not act fairly to the Maoris of the Ngaitahu Tribe. He did not go to Piopiotahi himself, but simply carried the survey of his boundary there, and then the Maoris, this having come to their knowledge, realized that Mr. Kemp had not kept faith with them with regard to the boundary of the sale that they had arranged, because the Maoris contend, and have always maintained that no mention was ever made of Milford Sound at the time when they agreed upon the boundaries of the land they were selling at the meeting at Akaroa, The Maoris have always maintained and still contend that the only land they sold to Mr. Kemp was the land along the eastern sea-coast contained within the boundaries that I have already given, and they maintain that the land inland of that and on the western side of that boundary still remained the property of the Maoris after the sale had taken place, and has always continued to be their property down to the present day. And if the Committee will remember, in the map which was produced before you by Mr. Hosking, he pointed out the inland part of the country which he maintained was still the property of the Native vendors. But the strongest argument that I can make use of in support of this contention is this: I ask you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, if Mr. Kemp had purchased the land right across from the eastern to the western coast, what was the necessity of the Crown subsequently coming in and making further purchases of Native land in the same district on the west coast that I am referring to — Hokitika, Mawhera, and Arahura—all of which were purchased subsequent to Mr. Kemp's purchase, and these purchases were effected by Crown Agents, Messrs. Alexander Mackay and James Mackay. So that I maintain that it must be conceded to be perfectly clear that at the time of Mr. Kemp's purchase the Maoris did not sell to him the land which is claimed tp extend right across from the east coast to the west coast of the South Island; and I hope subsequently to be able to satisfy you that I am speaking with entire justification. I wish to be particularly emphatic in this: that at the time of the negotiations between Mr. Kemp and the Natives, the Maoris claimed a very much larger amount of money than lie was prepared to offer. Perhaps I should be in order in mentioning the amount of money the Maoris asked. The Maoris asked in payment for their land the sum of twenty million thousand pounds —that was as near to the English of it as they could get, Well, Mr. Kemp was annoyed and distressed on account of that demand, and the Maoris thought that the £2,000 that Wias offered would be paid over to them in a lump sum, but it was not: only £500 was paid them then. On the second payment a further sum of £500 was made, and on the occasion of the third payment another sum of £500 was paid, and a fourth payment was also £500, which made a total of £2,000. The Maoris also, on that account, were annoyed and distressed, because they understood they were to receive the whole of the £2,000 in one payment. Mr. Kemp was also annoyed, and, as I have already described, he threatened that if they did not accept the £2,000 he had offered he would pay it over to the Ngatitoa, That was said in order to intimidate the Maoris and so induce them to sign his deed ; and I say that the Maoris were so upset and distressed over this that they consented and gave the boundaries of the land they were prepared to sell, the Maoris being under the impression then that this sale to Mr. Kemp would be exactly similar to that which had been previously made to the New Zealand Company in 1844 of the Otago Block —because the majority of the people who had sold the Otago Block in 1844 were the same persons who sold to Mr. Kemp at Akaroa subsequently. The Maoris also understood from Mr. Kemp at the time they consented to the sale that when the land came to be surveyed he undertook that a return was to lie made to them of one-tenth —that is to say, one acre out of every ten acres of land purchased was to be returned to the Maori owners, and one block of land out of every ten blocks of land into