I.—3b.

22

[t. E, gkeen.

Mr. Cadman came to Kaiapoi to ask if we would accept land at the Waiau. We asked if it was to be in satisfaction of our claim. He said, ' No; if you have a claim make it to Parliament.' We were not satisfied with that, and determined to write to him at Wellington. We received a reply from him, in which he repeated that our acceptance of land at Waiau would not affect our claim." Is that correct? Witness: That is all correct. Hoani Maaka examined. (No. 3.) Mr. llasking: This is your statement to me: "When the Hon. Mr. Cadman visited Kaiapoi, Mr. Parata was his interpreter. 1 cannot tell from memory the month and year. Mr. Cadman was Native Minister. I was the first spokesman on account of what brought him to Kaiapoi. We told him that we were afraid the lands which were to be given to us would be put in payment of our claim. He said, ' These are not given to you in consideration of your claim. If you have a claim you go to Parliament.' We did not agree to accept these lands for our claim. We had an idea that if we did accept them they were to be in payment of our claim. So, to confirm us, we wrote to him, and he replied that the acceptance of the land would not be payment of the claim. Now they try to make out that the land was given in fulfilment. I, with others, the descendants, do not agree to accept them. There were many names on the deed not Ngaitahus." The Chairnwn (to Mr. Hosking): What deed is he alluding to? Mr. Hosking: The names in the list of landless Natives for the South Island. (To witness:) Your statement goes on, " The petition relates only to Kemp's purchase. If for our claims, why should they give land outside of the block? " That is what you have said? Witness: Yes, that is right. Mr. Hosking: Those are the only witnesses, sir. I called them in case Mr. Cadman's letter cannot be found. In that connection may I be permitted to add a further observation? This land —the 100,000 acres which has been set apart for the landless Natives under the Act of 1906 —has been given not only to Ngaitahu, but to Natives throughout the Island ; and it will be recollected that Mr. Mackay's recommendation for settlement, which he repeated on a second occasiou when the matter was referred to him, was 130,000 acres for Ngaitahu alone. So that the areas which have now fallen to the Ngaitahus under the Landless Natives Act would have been regarded as. quite inadequate by those who went into the question as a recompense for their claims. Natives in Nelson and elsewhere, where they were landless, have come in and got as much as the Ngaitahu, who have conceived always that they have had a right to get lands in virtue of the Government's promises. Hon. Mr. Ngata: Mr. Mackay was Commissioner with Mr. Percy Smith, was he not, in the investigations which led to the 1906 Act? Mr. Hosking: Yes. They were sent down to adjust the quantities, but, of course, they were limited by the Act to 50 acres per head for adults and 20 acres for children. They could not award anything. That award was made by the Act. Their object was to find out who were the landless Natives, and how much land each Native had. lam also asked to mention that between the sections which have already been laid off there are no roads marked off. The Chairman : You mean as far as the landless Natives' block is concerned ? Mr. Hosking: Yes. There are no roads, so as to give access to each section, and I am told that that will lead to no end of trouble, because one man, in order to get to his section, will have to cross over the land of another man. This is a fact that goes to show that a very well-intentioned Act is not yet perfect in its operation. The Chairman: But your principal argument is that that Act does not affect this petition at all? Mr. Hosking: Quite so. I am only pointing out that what the Natives have got is affected with the disadvantages I have urged. Hon. Mr. Carroll: Can you tell the Committee what proportion of that 100,000-odd acres was allocated to the Ngaitahu under the Act of 1906? Mr. Hosking: I think there is a return by Mr. Percy Smith and Mr. Mackay showing how the land has been allocated, but I have not got that paper. Hon. Mr. Carroll: In any case, the landless Ngaitahus have been considered? Mr. Hosking: Oh, yes! Some of the Ngaitahu had really nothing, and they have got full quantities —50 acres for an adult and 20 for a child; but till 1906 they had not a yard of land for all the promises that were made so many years before. The Chairman: Do the petitioners represent all who would have claims? How many people would be affected if the claims were recognized? Mr. Hosking: The petitioners come up pretty nearly to the full number, I believe. The petition may be regarded as a thoroughly representative petition, because it is the result of an organization on the part of the Natives, which they formed some two or three years ago for the purpose of enforcing their claims. There was a general meeting of the Ngaitahu and Ngatimamu Tribes held on the 16th July, 1907, and an associaton was formed, with chairman, secretary, treasurer, and a management committee, with provision for funds and for meetings and that kind of thing. The Chairman: You have no idea how many Natives would claim, supposing the Government were prepared to satisfy their claims? Mr. Hoiking: It cannot be very many more, I think, than the number that have signed the petition. I think it would come to about 1,200. Mr. Parata, jim.: About 3,000.