13

A.—sa

REPORT Or PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE

Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : In connection with this question of accommodation, the recommendation in both reports —the majority and the minority report — is that it should apply to ships registered in Australia, ships licensed to trade on the coast, and ships continuously trading to any port in the Commonwealth whose articles are drawn out in the Commonwealth and whose final port of discharge of crew is in the Commonwealth. It is not proposed in the recommendations ot the Royal Commission to carry the provisions beyond that, as regards accommodation. It is clause 3 in the Summary, page 37, in the Blue Book copy. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : The proposal that we have incorporated in the draft Bill is that there should be a space of not less than 120 cubic feet, and further on not less than 16 superficial feet, and not less than 4 feet measured between bunks at the forward end. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : And that is meant to apply only to what are practically Australian vessels and to the vessels trading on the Australian coast. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : Would not that apply to the liners ? Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : No, I don't think so; but, of course, that is a matter of interpretation. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : The reason why the Commission agreed to limit the scope of its recommendations in this respect, was that it should not attempt to impose them upon ships not continuously within its jurisdiction. It would be a very good thing if this Conference could do it. Of course, we have a right to do it in this case, because those are our own ships. The CHAIRMAN : Do your recommendations apply to ships built before the date of the passing of your Bill ? Would you compel owners to alter their ships ? Sib WILLIAM LYNE : I am not sure whether it would apply to ships already built, but the chances are that it would. Some shipowners are altering the internal arrangements now, in their old ships. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : On the Mercantile Marine Committee it was proved that there were no ships where they had only 72 feet. The evidence was that they were far in excess of that. The evidence on that point was very clear, as some of you know. The majority were far in excess of 72. The CHAIRMAN : But not 120 ? Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : Yes; some proved that they had as much as 150. That is on record in the evidence given before that Committee. It was given in evidence by the shipowners and the Board of Trade officials, and the evidence is available to prove what I say. Mr. WALTER J. HOWELL : The minimum was so small. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : Yes, and the evidence went to prove that much more was given. Mr. WALTER J. HOWELL : Yes, certainly, in most ships. Thb CHAIRMAN : In reference to what Mr. Hughes said—that you had power to deal with the matter in the way suggested— I would rather not discuss the question of powers if we can possibly avoid it, because it raises very large questions of jurisdiction, and I told the Attorney-Ceneral, who was prepared to attend, that I preferred to get along without him if we could. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : In regard to the question of the air space for the crew, you have, in your recent Act, provided 120 cubic feet; but then a little lower down —as very often happens in the framing of these Acts— you say that this shall not apply when arrangements are made for bath-houses and so on. We say, that 120 cubic feet is the minimum amount that should be allotted for the sleeping accommodation of each seaman, and that a bath is as much a necessity as a urinal or a lavatory, and that you ought not to take from the sleeping accommodation, which is a necessity, what you give to the washing, which is also a necessity. I travelled home in quite a good ship, but the bath accommodation was extremely primitive, and we find that on a number of very good ships the bath

accommodation usually consists of a bucket, with which a man could go on to the deck or into the water-closet. You make a very wise provision for a bath-house, and then you say, as a penalty for having that, '' you shall " have less room to sleep in." The CHAIRMAN : I would rather put it the other way. It is not exactly a penalty, but a reward for providing a bath-house. As a reward for doing that, we say, "We will allow you to reduce the space. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I think it should be 120 feet clear of all incumbrances, and without any deduction at all. Mr. BELCHER : What do you propose in your Australian Bill? Hon. W. M. HUGHES : 120 cubic feet, and 16 floor space feet; in the British Act it is 15 feet. The CHAIRMAN : Of course, we must bear in mind that we have to proceed very gradually in these matters. We cannot impose great additional burdens all at once upon the shipowners. Mb. BELCHER : My experience of all classes of German ships is that the accommodation for the crew is better than the new regulations. The CHAIRMAN : Their regulations, at any rate, are not equal to ours. Mr. BELCHER : They have no regulations worse than ours. Mb. WALTER J. HOWELL : The German law is not so stringent as ours in some respects. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : I think the Board of Trade ought to be able to tell us what the German arrangements are as to accommodation. The CHAIRMAN : We have increased ours. Mb. HAVELOCK WILSON : I can only say that their accommodation is equal to ours, and in many cases very superior. Mb. LLEWELLYN SMITH : As regards the requirements of the law. if there is any diversity of opinion we will have the facts got out by the next meeting. The CHAIRMAN : I see, Sir William, that in your old Bill (135) you only had 72 cubic feet, so you have taken rather a big jump to 120 ? Sib WILLIAM LYNE : Yes, and I think if you had seen things that 1 saw not long since, you would have taken the jump too. The CHAIRMAN : And we have done it already. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : I have seen 40 or 50 men in a place where there was not much more than 120 feet for the whole lot. Mb. LLEWELLYN SMITH : The Board of Trade have received a Memorandum prepared on behalf of the shipowners' delegates, setting forth their views, which we will now circulate among the delegates. (See Appendix A, p. 169.) The CHAIRMAN : Of course, all documents are to be treated as confidential. Mb. BELCHER : Do I understand that the British authorities intend to alter their Act, and to increase the provision for the crew's space? The CHAIRMAN : Yes, we are altering our minimum from 72 to 120, and it comes into operation on the Ist of June of this year. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : I think there is power in our Act to require ships to be altered, if we so desire it, but I am not certain. I know, as far as my Department is concerned, it is considered to apply in that way, but as Mr. Thomson has said it is for the Court to decide. The CHAIRMAN : But it is mandatory for all ships to be built in the future? Sib WILLIAM LYNE : Yes. Sib JOSEPH WARD: I was going to suggest that if it were possible for us to know what we are going to