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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE.

dominions. That will exclude all French, German, and other foreign passengers which trade directly from the Commonwealth to some port other than to a port in the British Dominions. Very well. Now we come to lifesaving provisions. That will apply to all ships registered in Australia. That would be purely coasting ships —ships licensed to trade on the Australian coast. Then there is a class of ship which comes under Part VII of our Bill —that is a class of ship that, although not registered in Australia, is licensed to carry cargo and passengers by reason of her paying the same rates or observing Commonwealth conditions. We need not discuss that just now. And these ships continuously trading to any part of the Commonwealth, whose articles are drawn out in the Commonwealth and whose final port of discharge of crew is in the Commonwealth. Then Chapter 12 of the report—deck and load line. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : You will have to explain what that means. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: This deck and load line to apply to all ships leaving Australia except those belonging to countries whose load lines are accepted by the British Board of Trade. I do not think we should object to anything like that. Then we have an inspecticn, but in addition to that we have asked that seaworthiness should be amended to include sufficient manning. And personally I say as far as I know the spirit of the Parliament—certainly as far as I know the spirit of the majority of the Commission and I think the spirit of the majority of the people of Australia —they will most emphatically insist thai? no ship shall leave Australia unless she is properly manned. And seaworthiness cannot be held to be as under the Board of Trade now ; a ship may leave anyhow —you cannot detain her. Unseaworthiness now does not consist in having too small a crew. Mb. LLEWELLYN SMITH : Yes. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : You could detain her—yes, if she does not have sufficient crew. But I will not say what a ship can do—a ship can go to sea grossly undermanned so far as officers are concerned. Mb. LLEWELLYN SMITH : Not so far as we are— Hoti. W. M. HUGHES : Our idea is she should be manned, and that she should be sufficiently officered and sufficiently manned, and all this is included in the term seaworthiness. Now, if we are going to discuss this, then I think we ought to realise that we are touch ing a very big question. If it is merely the survey of the ship and the hull, that is another matter entirely. Only let us know where we are. Mb. NORMAN HILL : The point I put was merely as to survey. Mb. WALTER J. HOWELL : Part 13 Survey, including hull and machinery, and life-saving appliances. Those are the only two. We are reserving the other points; we have something we want to say on the other points. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Yes, all right; but you will excuse my pointing this out. We want to delimit this thing which you call survey. Mr. NORMAN HILL: We want to say something about manning and about seaworthiness. But the present proposal we wanted to limit to surveys of hulls, machinery, and life-saving appliances. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : That is one kind of seaworthiness. Mr. NORMAN HILL : And we want reciprocity. We do not want to have to toe the line to a different standard in each of the countries. Sib JOSEPH WARD : You are not dealing with the question of manning at all. The CHAIRMAN : Not at the moment; of course we have to discuss it, but 1 think we might confine ourselves for the moment to the points submitted by Mr. Norman Hill. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I am quite agreeable. The CHAIRMAN : And the voyages referred to are not necessarily those voyages referred to by Mr. Hughes; you are speaking of oversea traffic pure and simple.

Hon. W. M. HUGHES : To begin with. Mr. NORMAN HILL: Those read out by Mr. Hughes are peculiar. With regard to the survey of hull, machinery, and life-saving appliances, 1 think that should be general—whatever trade. If the ship is good enough for the oversea trade in these particulars— conforming to those standards —I think that ought to apply everywhere, whether coasting or oversea. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : The course you take would under this proposal divide the survey into more than one part. It is suggested by this Royal Commission that the survey should go further than you do —should be extended to include other things. And in a Bill which is prepared now, but which has not been before our Parliament —I do not know whether it was in the original Act.—no ship shall be deemed seaworthy unless she is in a fit state as to condition of hull and equipment of boilers and machinery, stowage of ballast and cargo, number and qualification of crew (including officers) and in every other respect to encounter the ordinary perils of the voyage entered upon. That is a clause of a Bill which will probably be submitted to our Parliament. That causes me to ask how far you are going on this question of survey here. It is desired that the survey shall not only include the hull, boilers, and so on, but every thing connected with the ship as is provided here and as Mr. Hughes has referred to. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : What would be the effect of a certificate survey in reference to hull, machinery, and engines in the case of a ship unseaworthy for other causes? You may have reciprocity with the Board of Trade, but if it only covers part of that which is understood by the generic term of "unseaworthy" the vessel could go to sea. Therefore in discussing these questions about an arrangement, we mean something which will enable the vessel to go to sea, or stop hel from going to sea. The CHAIRMAN : It is a question of time very largely. What would take time is not the computation of the number of the crew—that would take a very short time—but a survey of the ship would take a very long time. Therefore the first point I think we ought to consider is this, whether you would accept, cam Board of Trade certificate as far as No. 13 is concerned and No. 10. If you do, at any rate you save time. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Quite so. You save the time of the ship. You do not have to put her through all this, which would take a very long time. Mb. NORMAN HILL : Yes, but first of all there is the complying with the original survey certificate. Do we accept that? And secondly, the length of time it is current. The CHAIRMAN : Those are the points—under 10 and 13 here in the Blue Book. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : That is periodical survey, really. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : I think the recommendation of the Committee is very largely the same as in Australia. The CHAIRMAN : Very largely. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON: I understand that ■if the Board of Trade can see their Way to issue certificates of this character, they would be accepted. Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH : They are issued now if they are asked for, and the whole question now is, will Australia and New Zealand accept those certificates when they are issued ? The CHAIRMAN : In so far as Sections 10, 12, and 13 are concerned, leaving manning outside for the present. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Won't that create confusion ? We should have to go and destroy your certificate if we said the ship was not properly manned. Sir JOSEPH WARD: But that is a different thin" altogether. The Act deals with that. The CHAIRMAN : You would only accept our certificate as evidence that the hull and machinery and the hfe-saving appliances were all right. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : And we don't give up any right in regard to manning, or the right to survey. I_