G. HOGBEN.I

11

1.—14 a.

108. I am asking that question ?—I could not say without counting them up. I doubt it. I think Otago has more ; but I would not like to say definitely without counting them up. 109. In view of the number of teachers that we have who are men of university attainments, is it not a fact that the bulk of them have gone through that training college during the time it has been established ? —I must refuse to make my words stretch beyond applying to the last few years. 110. You think that of late the Normal School in Christchurch has not been doing good work ?— Yes ; but I do not think it is right that I should say that without stating why—that there have not been the arrangements that would enable it to do good work. 111. The question I put to you is this : You think that the Normal School of late years has not been doing good work ? —I think it has not been keeping up with the demands that we should make on those trained in our training colleges. What I said really was that the money being spent on it did not give a fair return. I did not say it was thrown away, or anything of that sort. It is simply the want of the most efficient arrangements. --> 112. And that it was in consequence of the bad management of the Normal School that you suggest that it should be centralised and a better system thereby instituted ? —No, I did not say that. I did not mention " bad management." I did not put it in that form. I simply gave that as one piece of evidence among several that had influenced me in arriving at a conclusion. I took that as an example; Ido not cast any reflection whatever on the Board. But I think that the system in which they are attempting to meet the wants of those students by giving them teaching to do for half the day and substituting lectures at the Normal School for lectures at the University College—has been carried on for years past to such an extreme point that those students are losing the degree of university education— taking one thing among many —that they might get. 113. The Chairman.] But have we not provided for that in the report of last year ?—Even so, in carrying the programme out the North Canterbury Board wishes to make such arrangements that it is hardly possible for many of the students to obtain the benefit of lectures at all at the University College. 114. Mr. Hardy.] Is it not a fact that the teachers in North Canterbury who have been trained in this school are men of as high attainments as any in New Zealand ?—I referred only to the last few years. 115. The Chairman.] Now we come to clause 2 of the section. The clause that we have been dealing with relates to pupil-teachers entering a training college. Clause 2 does not ? —No. 116. Is this a new suggested entrance ? —There are a good many who have entered in Otago, and there have been a few this year in Canterbury, who have not been pupil-teachers, and some of them have been just the very people we are glad to get hold of in the teaching profession—those that have gone straight forward from school to a university degree. They are junior scholars of the University, some of them, and occupy other positions, and it would be very desirable to get them into the secondary or primary schools. They have gone into both in times past. Well, you must make some way for these people to get their training. It is universally agreed that it is desirable that all kinds of teachers should be trained in methods of teaching ; and this provision was made to enable such persons who had not been pupil-teachers but who were desirable candidates—they would have to prove that they were to get their training. 117. I want to ask you a question dealing with the generality. You are speaking as an expert, and I want to know from you as an expert whether you think it advisable for us to aim in future at getting rid of entrance to a training college through the pupil-teacher system in favour of entrance direct from either the secondary school or the University ? —I think that if we did away with pupilteachers altogether we should make the biggest advance that we have ever made. 118. That being your opinion, is this clause 2 suggested in order to approach towards your ideal ? — Yes, partly. 119. Your idea could not be carried out now, could it ?—No. 120. It is practically impossible at the moment ? —lt could hardly be carried out at present. I know that it would cost a certain amount of money ; but I think we should get a return for our money in increased efficiency. 121. This suggestion of yours is that persons should enter from a university college or after having gone through a junior scholarship examination and been at least one year at the University. Do you think that is a sufficiently easy entrance to encourage students to enter under this scheme ?—" He shall have kept terms for at least one year at the University College or have gained credit at the Junior Scholarship Examination of the University." I think it would admit all the best ones at present. 122. You would not suggest that a secondary-school boy who had matriculated should be allowed to come in under this clause 2 ?—I see another danger there. Some would be glad to get their university college fees paid, and in the absence of any bond to compel them to teach for a certain time they would be getting a university scholarship without paying. 123. Mr. Baume.] Assuming that the conditions were that they must have passed the Matriculation Examination and that they must enter into a bond, would not that be sufficient ? —The only difference I would make between these students and ex-pupil-teachers would be this : On a report being made by the director of the training school, if necessary supported by an inspector of schools, that a candidate had proved himself unfit for teaching, in their judgment, he should not be allowed to continue. He has had no previous probation. 124. The Chairman.] Assuming that a boy had matriculated, and that his secondary-school master had accredited him and an inspector had also certified to the fact that he was likely to turn out a good teacher, would you offer inducements to that boy to go direct to the training college ? —Yes, if there were a period of probation. 125. What probationary period do you suggest ?—Not less than three months.