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I.—B.

Mr. E. S. Eounthwaite examined. (No. 21.) In reply to the Chairman's invitation to give his views on the Bill, Mr. Eounthwaite, City Engineer, said: I only desire to shortly support the views expressed by Mr. Ferguson. I think public opinion is perhaps sufficient to insure that the employes under the Council are not sweated in any way, and that they are treated fairly. The point I would like to impress chiefly upon the Committee is, under the proposed Act the Council itself is practically a Court of appeal, and I think such Court should hardly be brought under the operations of the Act. In the case of any requisition being made by the Inspector, the reasonableness or otherwise of such requisition is a matter for the City Council or Borough Council to deal with, and I hardly think, therefore, that the Council, which does not work for private profit in any way, should be brought under the operation of this Act. It affects the Council to a small extent. I may say, in passing, it seems that the provisions in the Bill as to hours and wages, as proposed, are going to upset entirely all the recent awards of the Conciliation Board and Arbitration Court. There does not seem to me to be any provision for awards that have been made and which are now running. Ido not think, Sir, that I need say anything further. 66. Mr. Elll] You say, Mr. Eounthwaite, that local authorities may be depended upon not to sweat employes in any way ?—Yes. 67. Strong complaints were made with regard to the hours worked and the wages paid by the City Council to their employes on the trams, but I believe they have come to a settlement now ?— They might have come to a settlement earlier. We have agreed to the same settlement that we offered before. 68. Perhaps you are not aware that in Christchurch complaints have been made against local bodies. I had complaints made to myself by one of the employes working sixty or seventy hours a week on some occasions. I think that is approaching towards sweating. The mere fact of the man working for local authorities is not a safeguard against working long hours and below the ordinary rate of pay ?—I put it that public opinion generally was sufficient to prevent any unfair treatment of men in large towns. In connection with local bodies, that has been my experience in large and small towns throughout the Kingdom. 69. So far as one city I have mentioned is concerned, public opinion is not having the effect there of remedying unfair conditions ?—Of course, the Council cannot interfere. 70. Mr. Collins.] Have you found it at all irksome in working under the Factory Act at present?—We have never been, as far as I am aware, dealt with under the Factory Act. It is news to me that we are really under the existing Act. 71. Have you any reason to anticipate any alteration in the position?— Clearly, under the definition of the interpretation clause in this Bill, we would be put under the heading of " factory." They might, if they had chosen, brought us under the Factory Act. 72. And because they have not in the past, they should not in the future?—lt is quite possible they did not think they would be able to do so. 73. Although you make, perhaps somewhat justly, complaints against the interpretation of the word " factory," which would bring you within the provisions of the Act, might not the limiting of that interpretation exclude some persons who ought to be within the interpretation of the Act: do you not think there are some places which would escape, and which ought to be looked after ?—I think if the City Council, which is an appeal Court in the matter, were exempted that would meet the case. 74. And you really want other local bodies to be excluded ? —Precisely. 75. You would hold that local bodies, being in a sense responsible to the community, there would be a sufficient check against any unfairness ?—They are solely responsible to the community, and the public voice would be raised against any unfairness being taken of the men. 76. I suppose you have had no trouble at all in carrying on, and there has been no expression of opinion with regard to the working of the body you represent ?—I have not heard of any trouble. 77. Mr. Hutcheson.] Are you in the position to state of your own knowledge that the Wellington City Corporation, almost immediately they had acquired the ownership of the tramways, proceeded to consider the claim for the improved conditions of the employe's of the tramways?— Immediately after the acquirement of the tramways the Council requested their manager to bring down a report showing how the hours might be shortened and the wages adjusted, but before there was any possibility of putting the recommendation into operation the Council was cited before the Conciliation Board. Therefore they were powerless to take any steps in that direction with their men. The men have exactly got what was proposed to be given them before they ever went to the Board, and the Council are now considering the question of giving the same to their conductors, because they think that these men work long hours, and the public should pay for the services rendered. 78. The City Corporation was anticipated in a spontaneous and voluntary desire to improve the conditions of the employes ?—Yes. 79. And they were retarded by the actions of others ? —Yes, for a period of something like nine months. 80. Have you considered, Mr. Eounthwaite, provided the interpretation were strictly and severely interpreted by the officers of the department, how the provisions of clauses 18 and 19 would affect the various departments of the City Council, as regards the limitation of hours, overtime, or the number of working-hours?—l have considered that, and it was an omission on my part in not referring to it. It would be absolutely impossible, under the provisions of those sections, to act in the case of an emergency. It is provided that we are not to work on Saturday afternoons. Very often an emergency arises; for example, possibly a water-main might burst on the Hutt Eoad. We would have to put our men out there and work day and night, and even on