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2. Mr. Lawry.] Does that include the Mokau country ?—Yes. 3. The Chairman.] It would be quite possible to smuggle liquor into the King-country by other means than through these ports?—Oh, yes. 4. I mean that it would be possible to smuggle the liquor in by roads or by means other than by the recognised port ?—Oh, yes ; perfectly easy. The liquor could be taken in almost anywhere. For instance, a man might buy liquor at Tokaanu. 5. It is only a supposed prohibited country, or, in other words, a man is not prohibited from taking a certain quantity of liquor for his own use ?—Quite so —except the Maori. 6. So that it is prohibition in name only ?—Yes. 7. It is only prohibition as regards licenses?— Yes. 8. In your opinion it is impossible for the police to stop the sly-grog selling ?—Yes, quite. 9. Even if there were an army of police ?—Yes ; the thing has been going on for some fifteen years. 10. You do not think it is, as a lot of people have stated, that the police not doing their duty is the cause of so much sly-grog selling ? —I do not think that. Ido not think the police have had a fair chance. For instance, there was only one policeman stationed at Te Kuiti when there were some four hundred navvies about, and, of course, the officer was known to every one, and to all the boardinghouse-keepers, and to those who sold the grog ; so that it was impossible almost for him to get a conviction. There is no doubt the police have been trying their best to stop the sly-grog selling, but they are succeeding worse than ever. 11. What is the effect generally of a conviction against sly-grog sellers ?—The effect is that there is a great deal of sympathy for the person convicted, the result being that all the more liquor is bought, to enable him to recoup the fine. 12. It amounts to an advertisement, really ?—Yes; and the same sympathy applies if the man goes to prison, for nobody up there thinks the worse of him if he goes to prison instead of paying the fine. They think a great deal worse of the person who informs in such cases. 13. You have heard, I suppose, of vile stuff being sold in the King-country—stuff sold, for instance, at 7s. 6d. a gallon?—I cannot say of my own knowledge as to that, but I certainly do not believe it. Ido not think there is any harm in my saying that I myself have had liquor at a great many places there, and have never had bad grog in the King-country. 14. Do you know Mr. Ngata at all?—I have been introduced to him, that is all. 15. Do you know Mr. W. Cussen? —Yes, I know him. 16. Is he an old resident of the King-country ?—He has been most of his time there for a good many years. Off and on, I think he has lived in the King-country for eight or nine years. 17. You think he could speak authoritatively as to the state of affairs existing in the Kingcountry?—Oh, yes. 18. You say there are several hotels immediately outside the boundary?—-Yes. 19. There are Natives living there near to these hotels ?—Yes. 20. Is it an awful place about there ? Are the Natives there a drunken lot ?—Not in the least. The Maoris who live where there are licensed houses are no better or worse than those in the King-country. The morality of the Natives in the King-country is quite on a par with others. It is a mistake to suppose that the King-country is occupied almost entirely by Maoris; indeed, the Maori population is sparse. 21. What are the names of the tribes in the King-country ?—-Well, there are the Ngatimaniopoto and the Wanganui —they are the two principal tribes ; other tribes being the Ngatituwharetoa, of Taupo, Ngatimahuta, near Kawhia, &c. 22. Are the Ngatimaniopoto a more drunken race or tribe than any of the others?—No, certainly not. I think, if anything, the Ngatimaniopotos are more abstemious. 23. Have you ever heard in the King-country, say at Otorohanga and Te Kuiti, of the fearfully vile state of morality, especially as between the Maori women and the pakeha men, owing to drink ?—I have heard of it, but it is not true. I might say here that on one occasion Colonel Hume and Inspector Hickson came up into the King-country full of expectation of seeing something of those fearful orgies supposed to take place every train-night. Those officers sent the local policeman to me, in order that I might have a yarn with them. I went and sat with them on the balcony. I did not know then what the officers were after, but it came out afterwards that they wanted to see if there was anything in the allegations of gross immorality, and they found nothing of the sort. 24. You say that any man stating that a dance was got up, and that after it, and after drinking, the whole of the males adjourned to the scrub with the Maori women, was telling an absolute untruth? —Most decidedly. The Maoris, for instance, would never allow such a thing. 25. Any man making such a statement as that could not bear it out by facts?— Most decidedly he could not. 26. Mr. Lawry.] I suppose there is no man better acquainted with the King-country Natives than you are? —Well, I think Mr. Wilkinson probably knows more of them, although I have a very good knowledge. 27. Does Mr. Wilkinson know the Natives over such a large area as you ?—Yes ; I think he does, 28. You speak the Maori language ?—Yes. 29. You are well acquainted with their inner life and working, are you not ?—Yes. 30. You have made, to some extent, a study of their character ?—Yes. 31. The immorality alleged does not exist to anything like the extent stated ?—Nothing approaching it. The Natives are not , all savages. 32. You are quite clear that the first petition sent down asking for prohibition in the Kingcountry resulted from the solicitations of Prohibitionists ?—Yes ; that has always been my impression.