G.—2

60

18. And what was the understanding when they had chosen 90r14 ? What was to become of the other piece ?—lf No. 9 had been chosen, then 14 was to go back into 11 ; and if they had chosen to ' select No. 14, then 9 would have gone back into 11. 19. Was that understood in 1886 ?—The Ngatipariri thought the same. According to what is right, Block 14 belonged to me and my people; but No. 9 was my own block, and some of my own hapu. If they had selected No. 14, then 9 would have gone back into Warena's block, if it had not been that both blocks had been put under Kemp's name. 20. I think you were asked how it was that no one protested against Kemp holding 14 for so ■many years : do you remember, in 1892, Warena issuing a pamphlet in connection with Horowhemia ? —Yes; it was printed, and Mr. Stevens distributed it amongst the people. 21. Did that express your opinion and your family's?— Yes; it was really my pamphlet. 22. Do you remember, inter alia, it stating this : " 1,200 acres were cut off in another subdivision and awarded to Major Kemp, in order that he might transfer the same to members of the Ngatiraukawa Tribe in settlement of a long-standing dispute, but the Ngatiraukawa, being dissatisfied with the locality chosen, another piece of 1,200 acres was awarded to Major Kemp in a position which satisfied them. Major Kemp has, however, retained the first-mentioned 1,200 acres as his own " ?—Yes ; I renj ember that. 23. Kemp said in his evidence in chief that he had given you £400 in connection with this. Is that correct?—l think he gave me more than £300. 24. Did you ask him for it?—No ;he gave it to me without my asking for it. He gave me £100 at one time, and another time he sent me £100 when I was at Eangitikei. It was his own idea. 25. Did you understand what it was for, or on account of what ? —I said, " This is some money Kemp has sent to me." He did not say what for or on what account." I thought to myself, " This will be some money from Horowhenua." 26. Prom any particular division from the sale of the township to the Government, or from rent ? —Just from Plorowhenua. Kemp had a great deal of money belonging to Horowhenua. 27. Did you ever hear of Kemp proposing to deal with subdivision 6by sale or lease?—l heard that he was going to sell it. 28. What did. you do when you heard that ? —I spoke to Warena's solicitor about it; I told 'him to send in a caveat; and I spoke to Donald Eraser, too. 29. Do you know if that was done?— Yes; I understand it was, for the lawyer said he would do so. 30. Have you ever had any conversation with Kemp, or his agents or solicitor, with regard to dealing with No. 11 ?—The person who was conducting Kemp's interest in the block came and spoke to me. ; 31. Who was that ?—Mr. J. M. Fraser. 32. He was at that time agent for Kemp? —Yes. 33. What did he come to you about ?—He first of all spoke to me in Palmerston and then in Wellington, the same year that the pamphlet was issued. 34. Was it after it was issued ? —No ; it was printed just afterwards. 35. What did Mr. Fraser approach you about ?—I was asked if Warena would accept £12,000 for his interest in No. 11. 36. Was that on behalf of Kemp ?—On being asked that question, I asked who was going to give the money. Mr. Fraser said that he and Kemp would give me that sum of money for Warena to go out of the block. I said, " Where can you two find £12,000 to give Warena and me this money ? Are you not disposing of No. 6 ? Perhaps you are going to get the money from that quarter, and the 13,000 acres belonging to Ihaia " ? " Yes," he said, '•' this land belongs to Kemp. If Kemp chooses to sell it, it is his own land." Mr. Fraser said, " Yes; it belongs to Kemp, and he intends to sell it. He is quite right if he wishes to sell it; it is his own. All that remains to be done is that Warena should consent to go out of No. 11." He asked me then to meet him in Wellington at Parliament, and in the meantime to think it over. In a day or two we would meet again, and a decision be arrived at. A day or two after I saw him again, and Mr. Fraser asked me what I thought about it. Broughton, who was there, said, " That is a very good idea." He came to me to say it was a good proposition. Mr. Fraser did not then say anything, but let Broughton talk to me. He said £12,000 was just about equal to the land-value, if the money is taken care of. I then said to Broughton and Fraser, " Warena will not consent to that; we do not care about your money." 37. Do I understand that you had spoken to Warena in the interval?—l spoke to Donald Fraser about the same day it happened. 38. You remember, in the Court of 1886, Kemp saying to the people, either in or out of Court, words to this effect: " Remember that you people in No. 3, if you sell your share there, Warena and I will give you none in No. 11 " ? —I heard him say that in front of the assembly at the place the Muaupoko were camped—in the middle of the committee that subdivided the land. He spoke to the assembled Natives, and said, "Listen to this; if any of you sell any of the land that has been awarded you—los acres—l will not give you any land in No. 11. Now, that this land has been awarded to you, you had better go back on the land allotted to you and look after it." 39. With regard to the sale by Warena to the Government, did you know he intended to sell a a portion in No. 11 to the Government?— Yes. 40. Did you approve of it ?—I did not find fault with it, because the land was his own, to do as he chose with. 41. After the sale, did you yourself tell any one of your people of the sale taking place?— Yes; I told my people that Warena had sold 1,500 acres to the Government.