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491. And therefore the coal-dust explosion must have expended itself at the mouth ?—I would not say that, because we do not find signs of charring in the level leading to the mouth of the mine. 492. Well, the fact remains that you have all the noxious vapours there?— The foul air must have been in that tunnel, because Mr. Bishop was knocked down a very few chains from the mouth. 493. The foul air could only have travelled from the place where the explosion occurred, and outside that you would not have any foul air ? —Not until such time as the explosion reached further on. When the explosion took place it went west and east, and swept up all the small particles of coal; the flame fed on that, and went on until it met something to arrest its force. 494. But do you not think the foul air would take a different line to the explosion, which would go against the air-current ? —Yes. 495. Sir J. Hector.] Mr Joyce wants to know if the smoke of the explosion came out of the mine as from a chimney ?—ln the first place it did. 496. Mr. Joyce.] How do you account for its appearing there when there was no sign of the explosion in any part of the main drive ?—Because the explosion was expending itself, and had been arrested in its course by the moist state of the main tunnel. 497. Did the force of the explosion in the first case push the foul air to the mouth of the tunnel?— The expansion of the air pushed it to the top. 498. Do you think that was the case ?—I think so, because I understand that Mr. Bishop was only in a few chains, and McDonald as well; therefore, this foul air was returning against the aircurrent. 499. In a case like that, is there no possible means of saving the lives of the men in the mine ?—I understand from Mr. Cochrane that they have stopped blasting, and are using safetylamps, so that they have taken precautions. 500. Those are precautions taken since the accident when they worked with naked lights. With naked lights is there no way by which mens' lives could be saved ?—Do you mean by another outlet? 501. Yes, by another outlet or by any other means. It really amounts to this at present, that when you have naked lights in a mine, if an explosion occurs, all the men in the mine must be killed ? —Not exactly. You have to take all known precautions. 502. All precautions certainly, but in the event of an explosion everybody is likely to be killed. Is there no way by which you can save them without their having to return by the airreturn or shaft ?—I do not think that in this case any return-airway would have saved them. If there had been another shaft, the explosion would have extended to both districts, and would not have been confined to one side only, as the stoppings were blown down, and the cabin-wall was also blown out. 503. Are not shots liable to be blown out at any time?— Yes, but there is something radically wrong if you have a blown-out shot. 504. Even if properly rammed ? —Of course the shot must take the line of least resistance. The hole must be 4ft. deep, and the coal must be undercut and holed, and the shot must not be put into the solid. 505. And a great deal depends upon undercutting if you do not want to have a blown-out shot ?—Yes, a great deal. 506. Do you not think it is necessary to take precautions in the way of damping the dust in case you have a blown-out shot ?—lf it were a dry and dusty mine you would take precautions against it, but the Brunner has never been considered dry and dusty. There is always a certain amount of moisture on the roads. 507. Then we have another fact. You say where the ground was moist the force of the explosion was hardly seen at all? —That is so, in the moist level here [indicated]. I think it died away, because it had not been affected by the blast. 508. So that if the other parts of the mine had been moist, the presumption is that there would have been no explosion?—lf there had been no dry coal-dust there would have been no explosion. 509. Do you use powder in your mine ?—Yes. 510. You do not use any high explosive ?—No; the reason being that we have had two or three accidents through caps being sent away in the coal to private houses. I think Sir James Hector had an experience of that. Sir J. Hector : I heard of one case where an explosion occurred in a locomotive. 512. Mr. Joyce.] (To Witness): You have seen the stoppings in the Brunner Mine. Do you consider them sufficiently good?— Yes, they are good stoppings. They are crib-stoppings, and there is a permanent stopping of timber. There are also the brattice-stoppings. The stoppings should be divided into permament, and temporary, and brattice. 513. What did you think of the permanent stoppings ?—They were very good, principally criblogging. 514. Backed with coal-dust or earth?— With stone dirt, I understand. 515. The crib-logging is in, because the mine cracks, and the roof falls in ?—Yes, and the floor comes up at the same time. 516. Have you seen the doors in the mine?—l do not think so. 517. Have you seen the barometer? —Yes, it is in the outer office. 518. Do you think that a good place, or whether a better place could be found for this instrument ? —lt is in a good place where it is now. The office is not locked up, and it can be seen by anybody. 519. Is it open at all times ?—Yes; everybody seemed to go in there. That is where the clerk sits.