1.—9

14

6. I have no doubt that the most efficient training is to be obtained by taking the vessel to sea. I know of fifteen training ships in Great Britain and .Ireland. Two of them have tenders for the purpose of giving the boys the benefit of the experience that cannot be obtained at anchor. The others, I believe, are stationary. There is much to be said in favour of the Kohimarama plan of residence on shore and an occasional cruise. If the question refers to the opinion of persons who can speak with authority and from experience, 1 have no other source of information than the last report of the Inspectors of Reformatory and Industrial Schools of Great Britain, and that has come into my hands (the 23rd, dated 1880). On page 137, speaking of the "Formidable," which lies at Portishead,Bristol, he says: " The services of the tender ' Polly ' have been of great utility in giving a thoroughly practical direction to the training of the elder lads in renl seamanship. 1 heard with regret that the managers have difficulty as to the maintenance of the tender, owing to the expense of keeping her up." With regard to the "Mars," at Dundee, which has a tender, the "Lightning," he says: "The tender has been most usefully engaged in taking out the senior boys for a cruise in deep water. This practical training in real seamanship is of the utmost importance to the boys, as it fits them at once for service, and adds to their value (page 223). 7. Without any reference to the general question of centralization, I am of opinion that for a long time to come there could be no profitable employment of two training ships in New Zealand, in connection with industrial schools. —The number of boys in all the industrial schools of the colony at the end of last year was 404 (including 53 at Kohimarama.) About one-half the children in the schools are under ten years old : suppose there are 200 boys above that age. These boys are not all physically fit for the sea, and some have not the spirit of daring that is necessary to make a good sailor. It is probably not desirable to force unwilling boys to enter on a seafaring life. I should think that certainly not more than sixty or seventy would be fit for it. I find that in Great Britain only onesixth of the reformatory andindustrial school boys are in training ships. The smallest number in one ship —sixty-seven—is, perhaps, as large as the whole number of suitable boys in New Zealand. The average number in Great Britain and Ireland is about 250 to one ship. The total number is about 3,300, besides about 300 on board the " Warspite," which belongs to the " Marine Society," a benevolent institution maintained by private contributions ; and 200 on board the " Worcester," which is the ship of " The Thames Nautical Training College," an association for training youths to become properlyqualified officers of merchant vessels. 8 and 9. The Inspector of Industrial and Beformatory Schools in Victoria informed me when I was in Melbourne two years ago that the Victorian Government had abandoned the scheme of nautical training for the boys of these schools, on the ground that association with sailors had been found to be unusually injurious to the boys. I do not remember his speaking specifically of any particular fault, except the use of profane and foul language. I have no evidence to offer beyond my own clear recollection of the statement made by the Inspector. 10. I do not regard the distinction between convicted children and those that are not convicted as a practical one to work by. It is a distinction depending upon accidents: the accident of discovery; the accident of coiisiderateness on the part of a committing magistrate ; and so on. The Manager of Kohimarama frequently complained of the presence of a criminal element in his school. Under section 9 of " The Naval Training School Act, 1874," a boy charged " with an offence punishable by imprisonment or other punishment," but not convicted of felony, might be sent to a naval training school. Captain Breton complained (1878, H.—l2, page 4), that this section was "in many instances too liberally interpreted"; but, he adds, " it is also a fact that snme of the worst-behaved and most irreclaimable boys have been sent under the provision of section 10." Section 10 relates to boys whose parents or guardians represent that they cannot control the boys, and on such representation get an order for committal. 11. The preceding answers seem to me to cover most of the ground. Perhaps after I have been re-examined I may be in a better position to know what further information would be deemed useful by the Committee. In the meantime it seems important that I should submit without delay what I have already written. I have, &c. 19th July, 1882. Wm. J. Habens.

No. 2. Further replies to Questions 3 and 11. 3. I have to explain that my information as to the boys that have been in the Naval Training School is derived from the periodical returns made by the manager, arid not from the original records winch are still at Kohimarama. Owing partly to the over-lappiug of returns, partly to the different methods of making them, and partly to the fact that some boys are entered twice, having been recommitted after serving a first term, the difficulty of making a certainly correct report has proved to be greater than I expected. The uncertainty, however, lies within narrow limits, and does not affect more than three cases. The number of admissions from first to last was 246, distributed over different periods as follows :— Committed before June 30, 1875 ... ... ...40. Between July 1, 1875 and June 30, 1876 ... ... 51, making to date 91 1876 „ 1877 30, „ „ 121 1877 „ 1878 29, „ „ 150 1878 „ 1879 ... ... 28, „ „ 178 „ „ 1879 March 31, 1880 ... ... 21, „ „ 199 „ March 31, 1880 „ 1881 ... ... 30, „ „ 229 1881 „ 1882 17, „ „ 246 ISTo. 34 is identical with No. 84,'N0. 52 with No. 152, and No. 132 with No. 188. No. 101 has the same name as No. 118, and is probably the same boy. The only numbers that I have not the means