I.—3a

6

141. Were auy Europeans invited to go there ?—No. Some Europeans were there, but the meeitng was not called for them. 142. Was Mr. Williams there?—Tes; and he heard the objections with reference to himself, and he heard what was going to be in the petition He was tuld two things would be brought against him —first, in relation to the school; and, secondly, in relation to his action as a minister. 143. What did he do wrong as a minister ?—He took up other occupations while a minister. 144. What were these occupations ? —He was a colleague and on friendly terms with the Government of Hawke's Bay, who were taking action to destroy the Natives. 145. Who were the persons who made statements against Mr. Williams ?—Eenata was one. 146. Was Mr Williams fully aware that a petition was going to be sent to this House ?—Tes. 147. Mr. Tawiti.] Why is it you have sent in this petition ?—Because we want a different arrangement. We want a new man and a new system. 148. Tou think Mr. Williams has been doing wrong, and you want the land placed in its original position for the benefit of the school ? —Tes. 149. Tou do not ask for the laud to be given back to you ?—No.

Thuesday, 1st Noyembeb, 1877. Hekabe Mattja examined — continued. 150. Ron. Mr. Fox.] You have told us that the Natives in your part of the country would not send their children to the school because of two or three things. "Sou gave us as one reason that they had to do a good deal of work. Now, if these children had been living in the pa with their fathers and mothers, would they not have had to carry water and chop wood, and do these sort of things ? —Yes. 151. "Would it not have been equally degrading then ?—No ; it would have been their own work. 152. It made all the difference whether they did it by Mr. Williams's order or at the order of their fathers or mothers ?— The difference is that they were sent to school for the purpose of being taught, not to be put to work, which they would have had to do at home. 153. Was there any understanding that they were not to do this wood and water work?—Yes ; it was said they should not do these things. 154. By whom ?—The parents told their children not to do it. 155. Did the parents tell you they had made this agreement, because you told us you had no children of your own ? —They did not tell me, but they took their children away from school. 15(5. I see by the report of your evidence given before a Committee of the Legislative Council that you gave as a reason why the school did not succeed that they had to do work, but you did not say one word about the £20 a year pay being a reason. "Why did you not give that as a reason when you were before the Committee ?—Because they did not ask me anything about it. 157. They asked you what were the reasons why the children did not go to the school. Why did you not give that as a reason ?—They did not ask me any questions on that point. 158. Yes, they did. They asked you why the children in your neighbourhood did not go to the school, and you did not say anything about what now appears to be the principal reason ?—It was not led up to. 159. It was not led up to here, yet you volunteered the statement. However, we understand that none of the tribes immediately round the school sent their children to the school, but that the only children there belonged to the Ngatiporou and Wairoa ?—Yes. 160. Do they pay ? —Yes. 161. How do you know that ?—Because the arrangement is that children shall pay £20 a year. 162. That does not keep the Ngatiporou and "Wairoa from sending their children ?—No. 163. By whom was it arranged that they should pay £2 > ? —By Mr. "Williams. 164. Are the Ngatiporou and "Wairoa children obliged to work and carry wood and water?—I have not seen them so employed. 165. Have you seen the others so employed ?—Yes. 166. 1 thought you said there were none there ?—There were once. I refer to the time when Mr. Williams first went there. 167. How many years ago is that ? —Ten or fifteen years. 168. You do not know that the Ngatiporou and Wairoa chiefs object to their children carrying wood and water, or think they are degraded by so doing ?—I do not know their opinions on that point. 169. I want to ask you a question or two about this petition. This petition is signed by you, is it not?—Yes. 170. Did you sign your name? —Yes. 171. When you signed your name, was the petition itself attached to these signature sheets, or were the two things separate ?—No. I want to explain. The petition was drafted or written in one place and the names were signed in another place, and this is a copy of the original petition. 172. "Was the petition attached to these signature sheets headed "Names" when you signed ?—No; it was not attached to it at the time. Eenata and Hapuku were explaining the petition when I was taking this paper round to get it signed. 173 Did other Natives sign it without its being attached to the petition ? —"When the petition was finished it was read to the whole of the people, audit was signed. 174. Who read it out ?—-I did. 175. Where did you get the petition from ? —Te Hapuku's house. 176. Who wrote it ? —Mr. Grace. 177. Was it written in Maori ? —Yes. 178. But it was not written by any Maori ?—No. The Maoris made a statement which Mr. Grace wrote.