AGRICULTURAL AND PASTORAL INDUSTRIES AND STOCK COMMITTEE. FRUIT-CONTROL BILL. (Sir G. HUNTER, Chairman.)

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1924 Session I, I-10a

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1924. NEW ZEALAND.

AGRICULTURAL AND PASTORAL INDUSTRIES AND STOCK COMMITTEE. FRUIT-CONTROL BILL. (Sir G. HUNTER, Chairman.)

Report browght up on 291h October, 1924, and ordered to be printed.

ORDERS OF REFERENCE. Extracts from the Journals of the House of Representatives. Thursday, the 17th Day of July, 1924. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed, consisting of ten members, to consider all matters pertaining to agricultural and pastoral industries and stock; with power to confer and sit together with any similar Committee which may be appointed by the Legislative Council, and to agree to a joint or separate report; the Committee to have power to call for persons, papers, and records; three to be a quorum: the Committee to consist of Sir G. Hunter, Mr. Corrigan, Mr. Field, Mr. Hawken, Mr. Hudson, Mr. Lysnar, Mr. Forbes, Mr. Langstone, Hon. Mr. Ngata, and the mover."—(Hon. Mr. Noswobthy.) Tuesday, the 26th Day of August, 1921. Ordered, " That the Fruit Control Bill be referred to the Agricultural and Pastoral Industries and Stock Committee."—(Hon. Mr. Noswobthy.)

EEPOET. I have the honour to report that the Committee, having carefully considered the above Bill, and having taken evidence thereon, recommends that it be allowed to proceed with the amendments shown on the copy of the Bill annexed hereto; and further recommends that the evidence attached be printed. George Hunter, Chairman.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Wednesday, 3rd September, 1924. Henry Turner examined. (No I.) 1. The Chairman.'] Whom do you represent? — I attend this Committee as secretary and manager of the Otago Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council. 2. You wish to make a statement to the Committee with respect to this Bill ? —Yes. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I will briefly place before you my views in connection with this matter, and I will do so as shortly as possible. At the same time, however, I wish to apologize if my statement is a little disjointed, because I did not expect to be giving evidence this morning, and in consequence I have been unable to obtain our evidence in as concise a form as possible. As I say, lam appearing before this Committee as the secretary and manager of the Otago Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council, and in that respect I propose to speak only in regard to the export section of the Bill. I may say that the Otago Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council was set up and formed for the purpose of handling the fruit exported from Otago, and up to the present it has not interfered, with matters relating to the local market at all. As the council represents close on 95 per cent, of the fruit —namely, apples and pears —which was exported from the Otago District last year, I think you will agree that the evidence which I propose to submit on behalf of the council should carry a lot of weight. In the first place I would like to say that we are absolutely opposed to the Bill in its present form. We would, however, be in favour of it provided certain modifications were agreed to, but some of them may appear to be so drastic as to be a counterblast to the Bill. However, that is a matter for you, sir, and the other members of the Committee to decide. The first and most important point which we ask is that we be given, in regard to export control, the same privilege which is extended to those who may or may not desire local-market control —that is, the right to say whether each or any province shall come in or stop out of the prosposed export control. In asking that, we do so with a full knowledge of what it really means. I may say, sir, that Otago is peculiarly situated in regard to its export business, in that, owing to its geographical position, we have practically to attend to the whole of our own shipping and all other details ; and up to the present time it is found that our system of shipping and marketing our overseas fruit —I refer particularly to the financial situation —has given us the utmost satisfaction, and I see no outstanding evils in connection with that system which warrant us handing ourselves over —without the right of a vote on the subject— to the Dominion Export Control Board, as is suggested in the Bill. As you gentlemen are no doubt aware, the industry is in a more or less impecunious position, and the matter of a few pounds one way or the other in regard to the return received for the fruit exported makes the difference between loss and profit so far as those engaged in the industry are concerned. Unfortunately there are very few orchardists in Otago —or in any other place, for that matter —who can say that their profits have been large as a consequence of their operations. Under the Bill it is proposed to put a maximum levy of 3d. per case on fruit. That is a point with which we do not agree in Otago ; we cannot see that we are justified in agreeing to this extra levy in view of the fact that no corresponding increase in return is being shown. The first and most important point that we discussed was that we be given the privilege of voting ourselves in or out of the export control, in the same manner as the right is given to others to vote themselves in or out of local-markets control. As a matter of fact, we understood that this was going to be embodied in the Bill that was proposed to be brought before Parliament the previous year. We obtained that impression very forcibly from the Nelson people, whom we look upon as fathering the Bill, and we understood, that it was discountenanced by the Government when the Bill was actually being drafted. The next point, sir, is that, in connection with any Bill, whether it is local or export trade —I am speaking with respect to the export section of the Bill —it must be clearly set out that there shall be no pooling in any shape or form of the fruit from the Dominion for overseas shipment. The next point is that whereas the Bill provides for a maximum levy of 3d. per case for export work, we in Otago wish it to be stipulated that out of that 3d. per case levy must be paid sufficient remuneration to enable the local provincial councils to carry out their work. No doubt the members of the Committee are aware that several provinces have Provincial Fruitgrowers' Councils—that is to say, councils formed by the combination of the various fruitgrowers' associations in that province, and as part of the system of organization carried out in the fruit industry. I may say that the voluntary control that has been carried out under the council has proved entirely satisfactory. We say that if this maximum of 3d. per case is also to stand as it is, it means that the 3d. per case may be absorbed by the Export Control Board, and this would leave the local council to make a further levy in order to carry out this work, which is very necessary, and which a Control Board could not carry out. At the present time the charge levied in Otago is 2|d. per case, but under this Bill the charge is put down at 3d. per case, and that leaves the possibility of the combined charges amounting to s|d. for the export work, which at the present time is being effectively carried out by the council for 2|d. per case ; and I submit that no improvement has been suggested to warrant the expenditure of another 3d. per case. We therefore say that under the Bill the fruitgrowers in Otago will have to incur the expense of 3d. per case in order to meet the expenses of the Control Board as well as the expense of the local council. Another point, sir, is in regard to the question of representation. At the present time we are allowed one representative in conjunction with Canterbury. We submit that our position in the export trade is such as to entitle us to one representative of our own. We will bo told in the meantime that Canterbury is not an exporting province, and it is not proposed to be in the near future ; but we have no guarantee of that, and therefore wo think our position is such as to warrant our asking for a representative of our own. Those, sir, and gentlemen of the Committee, are the main points upon which we oppose the Bill in

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its present form. I would like to say, however, that in dealing with this Bill we are in a more difficult position than in other places—that is, the position in Otago presents more difficulties than is the case with respect to the bulk of the people in the north, particularly as regards handling—in this way : that in Nelson the issue is practically confined to pip-fruit (namely, apples and pears), whereas in Otago the fruitgrowers include a large percentage who confine their attention to a very large area of stone-fruit. I would like to mention that the quantity of fruit produced in Otago during the seasons 1922-23 and 1923-21 was something in the vicinity of three-quarters of a million cases. I am not quite sure as to the exact quantity, but it was somewhere in that region. However, I think that over 60 per cent, of the total quantity of fruit at present grown in Otago represents stone-fruit, so that the question of representation from Otago with respect to the export section of the Bill must be carefully watched ; and I say, speaking for the Otago Fruitgrowers' Council, which practically represents the total exportable quantities of fruit, that it may be taken as a unanimous wish of the Otago Fruitgrowers who are interested in the export section of the Bill that Otago should have one representative of its own. In conclusion, may I say that, in the opinion of the fruitgrowers of Otago, at the present moment there is no necessity for such drastic measures in regard to the export of fruit as is proposed by the Export Control Bill. It may be that the people who are interested in the industry in the north desire this, but I submit that their conditions are different from those existing in the Otago District. We have no desire to prevent them getting either export control or local-market control. Provision is made in the Bill for local control, and a province may say if it wants to come in or stop out, and we claim that it is reasonable for us to ask for the same provision, in regard to the export control. I may say that the outstanding factor in regard to the success of overseas shipments is the condition, in which the goods arrive in London. That depends upon the grading in New Zealand, and also the manner in which the fruit is carried by the shipping companies. The grading and packing in New Zealand is under the direct supervision of the Government's officials, and they have the last word with respect to the quality of the fruit that is exported, and there can be no doubt that the shipping companies are doing everything in their power to see that the fruit is landed in good condition. I submit that the trade is not sufficiently strong in the meantime to warrant us in committing ourselves to a Dominion-wide Export Control Board. The Bill has led to a good deal of confusion, and has been the means of certain sections endeavouring to sway the opinions of other sections in regard to the Bill. We have a number of instances where districts that have never exported any fruit, and never will do so, are totally opposed to the local-markets section, while they heartily approve of the export section of the Bill. If this sort of thing is going to carry weight in certain directions it means they are going to benefit at somebody else's expense if we are going to encourage export, because the more fruit that goes out of the country the more it will benefit those people. We ask that we be allowed to come in or stop out, as a province, in regard to any Control Bill that may be brought forward. 3. Mr. Forbes.] You said that you wanted to have the right to come in or stop out of this local control ? —The Export Control Board. As the matter stands, once the Bill is brought into operation wo automatically come under the Dominion control scheme, but we are not granted the right to vote, as was the case with the Dairy Control Export Bill. The Bill does not provide that we should have a vote in that respect. 4. How much did you export from Otago to England last year ?—We put it Mown at about forty-two thousand cases. 5. You said that the shipping companies were carrying the fruit satisfactorily ? —Yes. 6. Were there no complaints as to the condition of the fruit on arrival ?—We received no complaints in that respect. Our shipments to London were in very good condition, and the reports were very good. 7. Did you have a Government guarantee behind you ?■ —Yes, that is so. 8. Are you aware as to whether or not it cost the Government anything ? —No. 9. You have an association in your district ? —Yes. There are eight associations in the Otago District. 10. Do they control the local market ?—No, in the meantime we are interested only in the export trade. We have a very strong Fruitgrowers' Co-operative Association in Duncdin which handles the large bulk of the fruit for the local market. We have our own council, which is a very excellent organization, for the disposal of the whole of the fruit for overseas markets. 11. You are apparently satisfied with what you have got —that is, you do not want this Bill at all ? —That is so ; but if a clause were embodied, in the Bill so that we have the right to vote ourselves in or out of the export control, the same as is granted for the local market, we would prefer that, and it would mean that those who did wish to have the Control Board for the export of their fruit would not be deprived of it; and it may happen that as a result of their experience we may be induced later on to come in under the Dominion scheme. 12. Mr. Langstone.] Do you sell your fruit Home on consignment or sell it straight out ? —The whole of our fruit went to London this year on consignment. 13. What was the average price you obtained for your fruit ? —Wo have not yet received our returns for the last shipment; but I think the first shipment would realize, on the average, 15s. c.1.f., the second realized about 18s. to 18s. 6d., and the last shipment—although we have not yet the returns available —would average nearly 20s. 14. Do you regard that as a satisfactory price ? —Yes, it would have been had it not been for the fact that we lost very heavily on a shipment of fruit which we sent to South America on a c.i.f. sale under control regulations with condition guaranteed at the other end. ] 5. What does freight work out at per case ? —4s. per case.

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JO. Do you not think it would be possible by better organization to obtain some reduction in the matter of shipping freights ? —Two reductions have been made in the freight since we have been in operation. The shipments for 1922 cost 6s. per case freight; in 1923, 4s. 6d. ; and last year, 4s. Our quantity of fruit is so small that the reductions or anything of that nature are pretty well governed by wnat happens in Australia and Tasmania. Between those two places they export many times more fruit than New Zealand is ever likely to export, and whatever rebate on fruit is granted to Tasmania or Australia is automatically applied to New Zealand. .1.7. What is the total export from New Zealand ? —240,000 from New Zealand. _ 18. Two hundred and forty thousand '( —Yes. I understand that to be correct. 19. Is there any difference in the fruit which you grow, in regard to keeping-qualities, &c, in your district, as compared with other districts in New Zealand ? —Well, we all have out little conceits about our own businesses. We consider that our quality of fruit is not due to any better system of growing, but we claim that our drier climate, with certain other conditions, will produce a fruit of a harder texture than fruit grown in a moist climate. Fruit grown in a moist climate is more spongy and contains more moisture. Our apples arc of a harder texture. We are also a month behind the season in the north, and we do not come in on a level with them; we come in a month later. Our district is almost like a different country. 20. Do you get a higher price on the London market for your fruit than the other districts ? —1 think it will be found that we do. That would again be particularly due to our different conditions. Quite apart from the fact that it is of a better quality, it arrives on the London market when probably the other supplies are going off, although we run the risk of clashing with fruit sent from the Continent. 21. Mr. Corrujan.] You practically export about one-sixth of the exportable surplus from New Zealand ?—Yes, sir. 22. Now, with regard to pooling, 1 understand your objection to be this : It is on account of your geographical position that you object to the compulsory pooling ? —Yes. 23. vVeil, if lucre is provision made for provincial pooling, would not that suit you ? Would not provincial pooling give you all that is necessary ?—Well, sir, I am afraid that it would not, and from this point of view : If you go in for a system of pooling you would have to go in for a complete system of community packing, which would be a very large undertaking, and would cost a great deal of money. For instance, a number of sheds would have to be built, and at present there is not sufficient money being made in the industry to encourage shippers or growers to build these sheds. The effect of pooling would be that such sheds would be required all over the country. When it is a question of having individual growers packing their fruit you may have two neighbours growing the same variety of fruit, and one man may put out an article for export which is from the quality point of view the best that is possible. It may be that that man is up to date with regard to cultivation, spraying, pruning, manuring, &c. Then the other man's work may be of a slipshod nature, and there would be a very wide difference between the fruit produced by the two growers. The result would be that in the case of the two men packing to " Fancy " grade the one may just miss a higher grade, while the other is content to scratch, into " Fancy," in which case pooling would be manifestly unfair. 24. Could you not overcome that difficulty by raising your grading-points '( —The grading is already in the hands of the Department. I may say that at the last conference a request came forward asking that the grading standard should be reduced, although it did not meet with great favour. 25. Now, do you not realize that you are asking to be allowed to stay out or to come in at your own option 1 That would do away with the Bill altogether. The Bill would be useless if it were optional for provinces to come in or go out as they liked. A Bill could not be framed to meet such conditions ?—-A Bill has been framed for the local market on those lines. 26. Quite so ; but with regard to export you could not % —The proportion exported is small compared with the local market. The great bulk of the fruit goes to the local market, and every centre in New Zealand is at the mercy of the other provincial districts. Therefore, if it is a question of controlling with a view to regulating prices, it is more essential here, where the markets are so easily glutted. The whole of the fruit sent to London is merely a drop in the bucket. The quantity of fruit sent there can have no serious effect on the market. And then there is also the fact that our seasons throughout New Zealand vary so much that our shipments do not all land there together. 27. Docs it not strike you how disorganized the trade would become supposing one province was under control and another province was not under control ? The more co-operation you can get the more chance there is of your getting what you are looking for —namely, the best market for your fruit '\ —Well, sir, our grievance is this : that those who are strongly in favour of the Bill have put forth no argument, or made any statement, or given any proof of any alteration they are going to make in the present system of marketing our fruit that is going to warrant even the 3d. per case that is proposed to be levied. It is spoken of in generalities all the time. It is never brought down to hard facts and figures. There are general statements made about improving the market conditions, and so on. As business men we wish to know what expense we are going to incur, and what we are going to get for it. If we have to pay a levy of 3d. per case we want to know what we are going to get for it. We want something put forward in concrete form. 28. Well, I take it that that is exactly what this Control Board would be for —to co-operate to run the industry in the best possible way % —Yes, sir ; but that is still a general statement. 29. Mr. Hudson.] Do you think the position generally in connection with the marketing of our fruit is satisfactory ?—ln New Zealand ? 30. In or outside of New Zealand ? —I cannot speak of New Zealand generally. 31. Well, then, we will confine ourselves to export ? —No, sir. I think that, generally speaking, the marketing conditions can be improved.

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32. You think that something is necessary —that if the conditions are to be improved it is necessary to do something ? —Well, we have the words of the president of our federation. He has been Home and has studied these points. I think the gist of his remarks is to the effect that our fruit, like many other articles produced, goes through too many hands before it reaches the consumer, and in that respect it may be possible to improve the conditions ; but to do so.it is not absolutely necessary to have this Bill. 33. But you think that something ought to be done ? —Yes, in that respect. I think an effort should be made to get our produce put through as few hands as possible before it reaches the consumer, because every channel through which it passes has to receive a fair remuneration, and. then there is very little left for the grower. 34.- Of course, you arc quite familiar with the conditions in regard to export last season and the season just finished ? —Yes, sir. 35. Well, take 1922-23 : do you not think it would have been a good thing to have then had some Board of Control ? —Our exportation only commenced seriously in .1922, and we know of no very serious matter that has cropped up that would have been very much helped by a Board of Control. 36. You do not think that a Control Board would have been of any use ? —Well, I am not prepared to say that. It is only reasonable to admit that a combination of interests in any particular direction have always rather more weight; but we have that combination of interests now in our federation. By forming a Control Board you would be simply multiplying our bodies, and multiplying our expenses. It is a question of pounds shillings and pence. 37. You. are against the pooling of provinces ? —Do you mean every province ? 38. No, within a province. Do you consider that pooling is in any way necessary ? —I do not consider it is necessary, and it certainly would not be advisable under the present system of packing. I contend that it might be arranged that any province desiring it, by a vote representing a reasonable percentage of the exporters of fruit, could decide whether they would have a pool or not. 39. Could that be done without legislation ? —I think it would require to be embodied in the Bill. 40. I do not know whether it is really a fair question to ask you or not, but I will put it to you : Have you confidence in the officers of the Horticultural Division—that is, as far as they are respectively concerned in the welfare of the industry as a whole ? —I would not like to say No to that. We come very frequently in touch, of course, with our local inspectors, and also the graders, and with those we are entirely satisfied. And when it has been necessary to go to the Head Office we have always been treated with courtesy in every shape and form. Although our views may differ, there is no question about it that what is in their minds is the welfare of the industry. 41. Now, this Board which it is proposed to set up consists of two persons to be appointed by the Governor-General on the recommendation of the Minister. No doubt those two will be experts, probably members of the Department of Agriculture. Now, the other five will be appointed by the fruitgrowers, and they undoubtedly will appoint the men whom they consider to be the best to look after the interests of the industry. Now, I presume you would have full confidence in a Board such as that ? —lt would not be a question of confidence at all. We would have no say in the appointment. 42. The fruitgrowers would. The fruitgrowers appoint five out of the seven. The Minister appoints two, whom, undoubtedly, he considers the best in the interests of the industry ?—J think, sir, the same argument applies to members of Parliament: that as a whole we have confidence in our Parliament, but individually we look to the member representing our various districts to safeguard the interests of their people. 43. Are you a grower, Mr. Turner ?—Yes. 44. A bona fide grower ? —Yes. I am sorry to say I have put more money into the industry than I am likely to get out of it at the present time. 45. 1 concluded from your evidence that in Otago you are mainly a stone-fruit-growing district ? —ln the meantime. 46. Not very much fruit, comparatively speaking, for export ?—During the last three years we have exported a fair quantity. 47. But a comparatively small quantity ? Nothing like as much, for instance, as Nelson ? — No. There were five thousand cases the first year, eighteen thousand cases the second year, and forty-two thousand cases last year ; and we will probably increase at that rate. Mr. E. C. Reynolds examined. (No. 2.) 1. The Chairman.] Your full name, Mr. Reynolds? —Eardley Culiey Reynolds. 2. And you represent ?—I am representing the Otago Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council, of which. I am chairman ; and also the Otago Central Fruitgrowers (Limited), of which also I am chairman. Mr. Turner has also spoken on behalf of the Otr.go Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council, and I do not think it is necessary for me to reiterate what he has said. I will therefore confine myself to the Bill, more particularly from a grower's point of view, because 1 am very much interested indeed in the growing and in the Bill. Our company has something between £40,000 and. £50,000 embarked in this one venture. I cannot give you the exact figures, but it has expended from £40,000 to £50,000 for 32,000 trees on our estate. We employ a very large number of hands, and amongst them we keep seven families ; and there are a number of young packers and pickers extra. Then we have also those that we employ for casual labour picking and different things in connection with the industry, and altogether we work it out at a very large wages-bill. I think it works out at about £6,000 a year,

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all of which has to be found by this small company. So you will see that I want to speak from, my point of view now, because it is of vital necessity to us that if this Bill goes through it should not tie us up in any way. We have no objection to the Bill going through so long as it is for the benefit of the people, but wo do not want to see a Bill go through that would tie us up in such a way that it would bankrupt our company. Now, as far as local control is concerned, I think that that is very much more necessary than export control. Export control, as far as I can see, is not wanted. As far as I can see, the portion of the Bill that is not wanted is the export control. The London market, after all, is a matter of supply and demand, and what little we do send from New Zealand is immaterial to the London market. If the Bill goes through we will have no option at all from the moment the Bill is passed : we will be part and parcel of the scheme, and we will be bound hard and fast to the Bill :we will have no say in any shape or form. What I would suggest is that the Bill would be all right if you. will put in a clause to the effect that " this Bill shall not apply to any fruit that is shipped outside of the Government guarantee." That would mean that if we wish, to do so we can put our fruit on the London market, and do the best we can, and either sink or swim. If that- clause goes in I have no objection to the Bill so far as my company is concerned, and a large number of other growers have expressed the same opinion. Now, in regard to pooling, I do not think pooling of any kind should be allowed. The conditions are so different in the different districts, and the packing is so different. We employ a large number of expert packers, and I have brought a case up to show you the kind of apples we produce. I hope you will allow me to open it. It happens to be one that is not packed for export, but is packed for local use. It is not the best fruit, but it is fairly good. It is fruit which keeps well without cold storage. [Box opened and apples handed round.] Now, every apple that we send to the London market is wrapped in our own wrapper in order that wo may advertise our fruit, in the same way, for instance, as the " Sunkist " fruit is advertised by the American companies. We call our apples "Mountain " apples. That is what wo are doing. Our packing is carefully done by experts all through 3. Mr. Forbes.] Why do you use the term " Mountain " apples ? —Because they are apples grown at an elevation of 1,200 ft., where there are extreme frosts in winter and no extreme heat in summer. I may say that we have lately sent twenty cases Home under the hatches as general cargo by the " Otaki," and I have just received a cable from London saying that those twenty cases arrived in absolutely good order in London as general cargo. They were not placed in the cool chamber at all, but just shipped, as general cargo. 4. The Chairman.] How long is it since those apples were picked ? —They were picked in April. As I say, there were twenty cases of our apples sent Home in the " Otaki," and Mr. Attwood has just sent me a cable saying that they arrived in perfect order, without cool storage or anything of that sort. So that there is something in growing fruit at 1,200 ft. In Amcrioa, some of the growers grow their apples at an elevation of 5,000 ft., and they claim that an apple grown at that elevation is a perfect keeping-apple. 5. Mr. Gorrigan.] The higher it grows the longer it keeps?—Yes. We have about eight or ten different kinds of export apples which wo grow on our estate. Well, now, there is another thing that I cannot understand in this Bill, and that is this : The qualification for the export voter is fixed at twenty-five cases, while the qualification for the local consumption voter is fixed at 120 trees. Now, as an ordinary mature tree will produce four cases, that gives a qualification of 480 cases as against twenty-five cases for the export. Why should there bo that difference ? Then, again, Nelson, under the Control Bill, will have two members, and that is quite right under present conditions, because of the groat quantity shipped from Nelson ; but supposing by reason of the extension of the industry in other districts they are able to equalize or bettor Nelson, there is no provision in the Bill for the alteration in the quota. I may say that I have received a cablegram from Mr. Attwood to the effect that all our fruit forwarded to London is not yet sold, and he is evidently holding on to it. Although we are now in the month of September, he feels quite justified in holding on to the fruit, evidently with a view to getting the fruit put on to the London market when the best prices are obtainable. lam quite sure that he understands the position. I may say also that ho has a free hand in regard to the matter. He was asked if he would allow the fruit to be shipped, to him, and he said that he would do the very best he could for us. ; 6. Mr. Hudson.] I understand that you are against the Export Control Board? —Yes, sir. I said I was speaking personally as managing director of the Otago Central Fruitlands (Limited), and also as representing the Fruitgrowers' Council of Otago. 7. Do you approve of local control ? —I say that the probability is that it is wanted more than the export-control scheme is. Wo have come up here to see that the Bill, if it is to go through, is to go through in the best way possible. 8. Assuming there is no export control and you send, as you have been doing, a first-class article from Otago, do you not see that there is the possibility of another district sending inferior fruit to the London market and so damaging the sale of your fruit ? —No, sir, I do not. 9. You think that the quality of fruit you send is sufficient to hold its own on the London market and make a name for itself, independent of any other fruit from New Zealand ? —We have only commenced exporting, sir—we are oidy in the second year of our exportation of fruit. However, as a result of one shipment sent to South America, people wanted to purchase more of our fruit, but I had to write to them telling them we could not undertake to sell any more until we knew what the export conditions were to bo. 10. I understood you to go so far as to say that any person who did not want to come under the guarantee could ship any fruit he liked ?—Practically. 11. Do you not think that that would have a bad effect on the London market as a whole if that practice were carried out ? —No. The London market is so big that the quantity of fruit we send Home does not make any difference to it.

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12. Do you not think that the bad fruit shipped from the country tells against that article altogether ?—There is no bad fruit shipped from New Zealand, because the Government Grader inspects it. We are very satisfied with the Government grading system, and, although they are certainly strict, they are very fair. 13. You say, then, that any person should bo allowed to ship any quantity of fruit he likes ?— What I said was this : any person should be allowed to ship what ho pleases, and to whom he pleases, provided he does not claim under the Government guarantee, because if this is a Government Act the Government is going to take charge practically of the Control Board. If we decide that we do not want any Government guarantee we should be allowed to ship on our own, and that being the case wo do not see that we should be controlled in any way. 14. Mr. Corriijan.] Has your association an agent or any other form of representative at Home who looks after your interests when the fruit arrives ?—Not previous to the last shipment. This last season Mr. Attwood was at Home and he undertook, if we shipped to him, to see that it wont through the proper channel. 15. Is he permanently residing in London, or is he merely on a trip ? —He is in London temporarily. .16. Do you not think it necessary to have somebody at the other end to look after the industry ? — Personally, 1 think every man should be allowed to ship to a broker if he chooses. A man should be allowed to ship to Liverpool, Hull, Southampton, London, or any other place, if he wants to do so. 17. I agree with you in that regard, but my point is this : do you not think it is necessary to have a representative at Homo to look after the interests of the fruitgrowers of New Zealand ? —You have the High Commissioner doing that all the time, have you not % 18. No, he is looking after the interests of New Zealand as a whole ?—Supposing 1 were to ship to Munro or Bradnum, I think that would, be sufficient. 19. You shipped Home your fruit this year and asked a gentleman to look after your interests ?— He asked me himself. He said that we had various lines of fruit that should be sent to one auctioneer, and various other lines to another, and he said that if we liked he would tell us exactly what to do. Wo said that that wa-s very good of him, and that we would send the fruit to him so that he could arrange for its disposal at Home. 20. My experience in connection with our own industry—namely, the dairy industry—is that our organization looks after the produce and sells it to the best advantage ? —But the. fruit industry is very small. 21. You never know what it is going to come to I—Do1 —Do you not think it would be bettor to leave it until the time arrives when we want it ? 22. Do you not think it is better to profit by the experience gained in our industry ?—Personally, I would prefer to ship the fruit to my own brokers at Home. 23. You consider that Nelson at the present time has the right of two representatives on the Board owing to the amount of fruit exported from there ? —Yes. 24. Can you suggest to us what amount of fruit should be produced in a province to enable it to qualify for one representative on the Board ?—I cannot understand why we arc bracketed with Canterbury so far as the representatives of the Board are concerned. Supposing, for the sake of argument, two members are present at the Board held in Wellington, and one Government member is also present —that forms a quorum ; but by reason of floods or something else happening in the south the members are unable to attend : it would mean that the two members from Nelson could carry anything they pleased. 25. No, I do not think you have any need to fear on that point, because if anything happens that pre vents the members from attending, the other members would wait until the other representatives were able to attend : that has been my experience in connection with any Boards that I have had anything to do with. I think you are looking at the matter from an extraordinary point of view ? — I am not suggesting for one moment that it would happen, but under the Bill it could happen. 26. Mr. Langslone.] I take it you have found the local federation or union of fruitgrowers in your district very useful to you ?—We have had our quarrels with them, and there have been certain things that we did not agree; with so far as the federation was concerned. 27. I mean the local organizations—that is, the fruitgrowers' organizations in Otago ?—There are differences of opinion, as you will find in everything. I may say that we are working as friendly as one would expect. 28. Do you not think that by co-operating, say, with the Meat Board and the Dairy Board, you would bo able to keep the expense down in the matter of marketing your fruit in London ? You will agree that the meat business and the dairy business are pretty big businesses ; that being the case, do you not think there is provision for co-operation ?—You have a very funny lot of different opinions to deal with down in Otago. 29. Mr. Lysnar.] There is provision under the Act for Local Control Boards, and for the different provincial districts to elect those Boards. Might there not be some difficulty in having provincial districts for these Boards, and might it not be better if they were arranged on lines more in keeping with the particular districts, instead of provincial districts ?—I have not looked closely into the question of local control because it does not affect us very much. It may, however, affect us if local control is not carried, and we have export control—then it might be worth while looking into the local markets to see whether we could have a free hand in New Zealand, because the margin of profit is very small. Fruitgrowing has got to the position that we have to depend on Id. or 2d. It has not turned out as was at one time expected —that all you had to do was to grow fruit and become a millionaire. 30. .Mr. Forbes.] You have a co-operative marketing ? — Yes. We have both co-operative marketing and also have a large number of auctioneers operating.

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31. Did you say you were chairman of that ? —No, of the Otago Central Fruitlands (Limited), and Chairman of the Provincial Council. 32. You sell most of your fruit locally ? —No, in London. 33. You are an exporting company, then % —Yes. The proportion we sell locally is very small- — only seconds, and the fruit not passed by the grader. 34. Would you say that the industry in Otago was in a prosperous condition ? —No, not yet,— we have not reached, that stage ; but I believe if left alone we shall be. We are putting £6,000 a year into this concern, and I believe that we shall come out all right yet—so long as we are not hampered and are allowed to do the fair thing. All our second- and. third-grade fruit is left on the ground, and we feed the pigs on it. We keep fifty pigs now, and they run about under the trees. 35. Have you much competition in the Dunedin market from Nelson fruitgrowers ? -They send apples there, and there is nothing to prevent them doing that. 36. You have no objection to that? —No; wo could send our apples to Nelson. Ours come in later —about six weeks later than Nelson. 37. Do you think local control would prevent outside apples coming in ?—As I have stated, I have not gone into the matter of local control. 38. Where do you think this Bill comes from ?—Otago has had nothing to do with it. 39. Then where does it come from ?—We do not know ; but if there is any need for it we are not going to stand out and hamper any one to whom it might be of use. Mr. Allen came to Otago and explained the position, and I understood that things were in a very bad state in Nelson. We said we were in a dreadful state ourselves. 'We have three returned soldiers, and not one can get a Government advance on. his property. Fruit-orchards apparently are considered such perilous risks that it will not advance on them. 40. Then, so far as your people are concerned, you have no need for the Bill at the present time ? —We do not go so far as that. I simply say that we do not see any necessity for the Bill so far as Otago is concerned, but if theie is a necessity for it anywhere else we are not going to offer any opposition so long as our interests are safeguarded, and we are not asked to do things which we might consider would not be good business. 41. You do not want to be included with Canterbury if the Bill were passed ? —I do not understand why we should be bracketed with Canterbury. 42. With regard to the qualification necessary to entitle a person to vote at the election of the Export Control Board, do you think it a fair provision that a man who has exported twenty-five cases of fruit in a year should be entitled to vote, while in the case of local control the small man must have not less than 120 fruit-trees, which would mean 480 cases ? —I do not think that is reasonable. 43. What would you. suggest ? —I would suggest that in the case of the Export Control Board the qualification to vote should be at least 100 cases. | ■ 44. You think twenty-five cases too small for the qualification ? —Ridiculously small. 45. The grower must have exported that number in one of three immediately past years ? —Yes. Here are the names of some of the exporters from our district: Otago Central Fruitlands (Limited), Fruitlands, 6,922 cases ; F. G. Duncan, Ettrick, 5,954 cases ; Benholm Orchard, Ettrick, 970 cases ; P. R. Sargood, Wanaka, 870 cases ; D. Leslie, Ettrick, 700 cases ; IT. D. Stronach, Ettrick, 950 cases ; Tonkins Estate, Ettrick, 5,821 cases ;G. M. Marshall, Earnscleugh, 277 cases : total 22,161. I do not know that we have any one shipping twenty-five cases, but if so he has an equal vote with (he man shipping seven thousand, which seems rather inequitable. I think a hundred cases would be a reasonable thing. 46. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] Do you export any fruit other than what you grow'?—No, r only what is grown on our own estate. 47. When you said just now that you desired to be left alone, does that mean you would prefer to have no Control Bill, and that you do not require the Government guarantee of Id. per pound ? — Yes, we would take the risk and ship without any Government guarantoo, and arrange our own finance. 18. I understand you are against the control of export ? —Yes. 49. You realize, of course, that it is impossible to have control of the export by the Government and at the same time allow private individuals to ship. There would be no need of the Bill at all ? ■ —Well, let there be control for those who want it. 50. You cannot do that; you would be hitting up against one another in the same market ? — Yes, but the markets are. so enormous —it docs not make the slightest difference in Liverpool. 51. The Government experience has been entirely different. If you had to pass the payments that have to be made for shipments of apples you would know all about it ? —T do not think we have claimed a penny from Otago. 52. Ido not think you have, but up till now you have not been big shippers is that not so ? — That is so. 53. Do you think yourself that the business wants overhauling and bringing up to date ? —I am not qualified to say what Nelson wants. lam only speaking from my own experience and from the point of view of Otago. lam really not qualified to say whether control is necessary for Nelson. The desire for this Bill seems to have emanated from Nelson, and if it is going to do them the slightest good, we have no wish to stand out so long as it is not going to jeopardize our own standing and our company have to go into liquidation as a result. We are within measurable distance of success —or, on the other hand, liquidation. I think we shall pull through, but not if we are hampered in any way. I have been seriously looking into the question. There is £40,000 invested. But we. could grow lucerne. T have worked out just how much capital we should have to write off if it came to the worst and we had to sow the whole of our orchards in lucerne, take a crop of apples

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for three years, and then cut the trees out. Ido not say we shall, have to do that, but I have looked into the matter. It is a serious matter to think of cutting out thirty thousand trees, but it may come to that if we were hampered in any way by control. We could carry on our 1,000 acres anything from three to four thousand sheep, and in working it out I found that it would not bo long before the profits from four thousand sheep, plus the apples we could take for the three or four years, would compensate us for anything we had to write off. 54. You recognize, no doubt, that the arguments you are advancing against the Bill —against export, for that is the main thing in the Bill—as to the possibility of ruining the industry, your own firm included, which I certainly do not want to see ruined —are exactly the same arguments that were raised against both the Dairy Control and Meat Control Bills, and yet you do not find that cither of those controls have ruined any one ? —No ; but has the standard of butter, by reason of the pooling, gone up or down ? I noticed the Prime Minister the other day stated in the House that our produce had decreased in standard. He said he presumed it was owing to the bad season. T think myself that it was on account of the pooling. 55. Mr. Corrigan.] But the Dairy Control Board has not taken control yet ? —No, but the standard has gone down. 56. Mr. Nosworthy.] The control is not really operating yet. —If pooling is provided for the fruit industry, I am sure the standard will go down to the lowest possible point. 57. But it is possible to make the grading such that nothing but the best can be shipped. It is a simple matter : it merely means an Order in Council ? —lf control is brought about we shall have to give up all our expert packers. It will kill the standard. 58. What about Nelson, where hundreds of thousands of pounds have been spent and nobody is doing any good ?-—I cannot say anything as to that. 59. Mr. Hudson. —With regard to the standard of your fruit: I understood you to say you loft a large proportion of it on the ground and fed it to the pigs : that is, of course, to improve the standard of your fruit ?—lt would not pay us to gather it up. 60. Do you think it would be a good thing to make every fruitgrower do that ? —lt would be the finest thing possible, and it would pay. We turn out beautiful bacon. 61. Mr. Forbes. —How many pigs have you ? —We have fifty, and hope in time to have five hundred. When picking takes place the bad apples are thrown on the ground, and the windfalls are left, and the pigs are then turned in. They clean up everything, and there is no disease left about. 62. Do they root much ? —They root all the cocksfoot round the headlands, and clean them, and they manure the ground at the same time. 63. Do they fatten on apples ? —Yes, beautifully; and then they arc turned on the lucerne. Sydney Rowling examined. (No. 3.) 1. The Chairman.] What are you, Mr. Rowling?—l am. a fruitgrower, living at Riwaka. Mr. Hamilton and myself belong to the Riwaka Association of Fruitgrowers. We field a meeting of fruitgrowers on Monday night, and we were elected to come here and. give evidence on the Bill. I cannot say the exact number present at the meeting, but" there were some thirty-three or thirty-four fruitgrowers, and the meeting was unanimously against the Bill, either for export or local control. I may state that we claim to have the oldest commercial orchards in New Zealand. The Rotherfield Orchard in Riwaka was planted just on fifty years ago, and I have an orchard thirty years old. I have been connected with the orchard industry ever since I was a boy, and have been growing apples and pears for a living for thirty years. Some years ago, before the war, we were exporting, and in those days we exported through commercial firms such as Dalgety's and Buxton and Co., and it was entirely satisfactory. I sold my apples to Buxton's for two years in succession at payable prices—l think it was then 45., 55., and 6s. a ease. Buxton's then approached me and asked if I would contract with them for three years. I did so, and it was entirely satisfactory both from their point of view and mine. Then the war started, and the export was knocked on the head for several years. After the war, all the; export came under the federation, and we were not allowed to export through Buxton's. We were so satisfied with exporting through these commercial houses that we asked the Department to allow us to continue doing so, but; wo could not get permission. About three or four years ago they did promise that we would be allowed to export through these houses, and we made arrangements accordingly —I think it was with Dalgety's. The firm took up the business but, before we started picking we were blocked, and the federation said that if we wanted to export it must all go through them. That did not suit Dalgety's, and'they turned us down, so we had to export through the federation. We in Riwaka, having the oldest orchards in New Zealand, claim, the right to export through whom wo like. We do not want the Government guarantee. With regard to local control, we all know that the apple-growing industry was in a very bad state —-in fact, many people in our district were very nearly ruined —but when local control was mooted last year, Colonel Gray came round, and we thought things could not be much worse, so some of us joined up ; but in our districts —in Motueka, Ngatamoti, Central Moti —I have yet to find one grower who is satisfied with local control. 2. Mr. Forbes.] You have local control now ?—Well, what we call local control, in which Colonel. Gray and Mr. Allan are the chief members. Well, we are not satisfied with that control. Of course, they deserve great praise for tackling the difficulties, but it takes a lot to run fruitgrowing to a good commercial end, and our experience in putting our fruit through the local control has been undoubtedly unsatisfactory. When they came round Colonel Gray reckoned that we were not getting a fair deal, and he reckoned that it was due to over-production and not enough being

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exported. Well, we put our fruit through them, but what was the result ? Colonel Gray said he thought the charges would come to about 3d. per ease, but when our returns came in we found that their charges were approximately 40 per cent., as against the auctioneers' charges of 23 per cent. I can produce such returns if necessary. Naturally, then, it is positively a disaster to some of us. Some of our growers expressed themselves to that effect at our meeting. They said that putting their fruit through the control was disastrous to them, and that they were better off when dealing with the auctioneers. That is why, gentlemen, that meeting of ours went unanimously against control. In our district many of the fruitgrowers have worked up a good private trade in New Zealand, right to the other end, and also down the West Coast. We have worked that trade up, and wo do not see why we should lose the benefit of that. We cannot see that this Bill will be of any benefit at all to us, and that is why we have been sent up here, in regard to export control, it is altogether too drastic for us. We do not want export control ;we do not believe in it. We want the right to sell our fruit where we like, how we like, and when we like, and let us sink or swim. 3. Do you say you have not met any fruitgrower who is favourable to local control ? —I have spoken to possibly fifty or sixty growers, and 90 per cent, of those have not been satisfied with local control. It seems to me that though the local control may be good men at organizing, and that sort of tiling, they are not good business men. I will give you an instance. My uncle sent some fruit to Wellington, and put the fruit in their charge. It was taken down and stamped " Fancy "or " Extra Fancy." There were five hundred cases of extra-good apples sent to the cool store and graded. If they had been put in the auctioneer's hands and sold in Wellington they would have realized ss. 6d. Well, those gentlemen did not know very much about apples, to my mind. Apples need watching very carefully. Well, these apples were left in the stores for six weeks, and then they had to be degraded to put on the market, and they realized from Is. 9d. to 3s. 2d. That is one of many similar cases. I saw some returns this morning where ten lots had to be degraded. Now, that sort of thing should not happen. They had no right to leave those apples six weeks in store. That sort of thing, it seems to me, is where all the expense is added up, and losses are brought about, and there is practically nothing left for the grower. 4. You think that growers should be allowed to run their own business if they wish ? —Certainly so. Wo have had such a lot of experience of these schemes. We have had these schemes in succession for the last twenty years, and none, of them have been any good. 5. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] This is the last ?—Well, we do not want it. Things are better without control. Under control they do not look after our fruit like we do ourselves. We pick it and send it away, and get it sold as quickly as possible. They leave it about until it deteriorates, and cases alter cases come back to us : then it is sold at a loss. 6. Mr. Forbes.] You think that, apples being such perishable produce, it is better to have the individual grower looking after his own output ? —Every time. I grow from six thousand to ten thousand cases a year, and I can look after those cases. I personally see the apples picked and. packed, and I send them away and get them on the market as quickly as possible. I say, let every man manage, his own output, and look after it, and put it on the market to the best of his ability, and get as good a price as he can. 7. Who are supporting the Bill ? —I do not know. We are not. We do not know who is bringing this Bill forward. We are not asking for it down our way. 8. Do you not think that a vote should be taken to indicato the real strength behind it ? —Well, I know they do not want the Bill at all. 9. They would vote against it ? —They would vote against it in Riwaka, and they would vote against it in Motuoka. 10. Mr. Langstone.] What is the position in regard to the industry during the last few years — has it been sinking or swimming ? —Well, before the war things were very good. Fruitgrowers were then looked upon as being better than the hopgrowers. It is true the fruit realized lower prices, but then the expenses were very much lower in comparison. In the war-time things were very bad. Last season and the year before was very disastrous. Last season I gave away four thousand cases, as there was no market for them. 11. What about this season ? —This season has been a very good season. It has been a very favourable season for fruit in our district. The fruit is very clean. It is not always so. If we get a bad season, with a lot of moisture, we get a lot of black spot. We have made some satisfactory shipments, and the market is now very good. 12. Mr. Corrigan.] Can you give us any idea, Mr. Rowling, as to the quantity of apples produced in your district ? —I cannot go into figures, but I may say that before the war practically all the apples eame out of tin; Riwaka district. Only a few thousands of cases Came out of the Motuoka district. 13. I was wondering what quantity of apples the meeting represented which you say was held yesterday or the day before ?—Well, Mr. Hamilton will be giving his evidence directly, and no doubt he will give you particulars in regard to that meeting. 14. You were telling us just now that you had lost a lot of money in connection with the placing of your fruit on the market: was not that due to lack of control to get the best out of the business ? — The control put a price of ss. 6d. on the apples, but the auctioneers could not get that price for them because the apples were deteriorated, and they had to sell at a lower price. 15. What is the control —that is what I want to get at ? —They fix the price. 16. That is, the price-fixing committee ; but they really do not take control of the stuff ? — They take control of the stuff. They are men going about selling fruit, and if they cannot sell it they fall back on the auctioneers. Colonel Gray told us that up to the end of June they handled sixty-four thousand cases, and out of that total of sixty-four thousand cases they sold thirty-thousand, leaving thirty-four thousand to fall back on the organization, and consequently there was a loss on that lot.

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17. Now, If you have this local control, what is to be done with the private-order lots ? —We do not have a local control. 18. Does the local control deal with these private-order lots you were telling us about ? —No. .19. Do you give them the surplus ? —I do not know very much about it. My experience in that connection has been very limited. My chief early fruit is early pears, but this control will not handle pears —they handle chiefly apples. 20. I understand that this Bill refers to pears and apples ? —They will not handle pears in Nelson very much. I have space in the cool store for four thousand cases of apples. I did not put anything through the control until about two or three months ago, when they sold some apples and the price realised was 7s. per case. I had 2s. Id. out of that for myself after all the costs were paid. That, was a mistake, because they charged me for cool-storage space. There have been quite a lot of those mistakes. If I had received 7s. per case on the open market I would have received ss. 2d. for myself. The second lot was the same, and the expense on that consignment was 40 per cent., as compared with 23 per cent, when dealing with the auctioneers. I have not heard about the third lot as yet; and I am not the only one in that position. 21. Do you think the men who are running this control scheme in Nelson will want to take it on for another season ? —I do not know. It is too big a thing to sell thousands and thousands of cases of fruit, because the fruit deteriorates too quickly. No man can handle thousands and thousands of cases in the way that is being done. 22. Do you not think if you had an organization like the Control Board, where you had representatives from all parts of New Zealand connected with your industry handling your fruit, that they would do their best in the interests of the industry ? —Certainly not. I cannot see that it will do any good at all. I would much prefer to sell my own apples where I liked and to whom I liked. 23. Do you not think that, looking at the matter other than from your own little orchard's point of view, this Control Board would be in the interests of the whole of the fruitgrowers in the Dominion ? —No. I may say that there is so little in the industry that we cannot afford to lose anything. You cannot run any corporate body without adding to the expense of the fruit. 24. Mr. Hudson.] In regard to the question of shipping, I understood you to say that before the war you sold direct to commercial houses ? —Yes. 25. Do you think you could get any commercial houses to buy your fruit now ? —I believe we could, and it has been hinted to me that we could. The Government at present fix our standard. I think that is hardly fair, because we have to pay for it, and we are not going to land fruit in England that is going to land us in trouble. I think that the fruitgrowers, in conjunction with the Government, should fix the standard between them, and not leave it to the Department to fix the standard by itself. If we are going to send bad fruit we are going to lose by it. 26. This Board would be composed of five fruitgrowers as well as two representatives of the Department ? —Yes. 27. To work together ?—Yes. 28. However, you consider that the local voluntary control that has been in operation in Nelson for the last year has not been a success, generally speaking ? —That is so. 29. You do not know whether or not that is due to the fact that a good many of those interested in the control have been disloyal to that control and going behind their backs ? —I do not know, sir. 30. Supposing Auckland wanted this Control Board, would you have any objection to them having it ? —lf they want it, let them decide for themselves. Frederick Allan Hamilton examined. (No. 4.) 1. The Chairman.] Whom do you represent ? —I represent the fruitgrowers and the Fruitgrowers' Association at Riwaka. 2. You wish to make a statement to this Committee in connection with the Fruit Control Bill ? — Yes. I may say that we held a meeting on Monday night, and there were thirty-eight members present, and they were not solely representatives of fruitgrowers from our own district —there were representatives at that meeting from Motueka, Mariri, and Stoke. The President of the Stoke Association was also present. Now, the meeting had the Control Bill before it, and during the course of my evidence I want to try and give you the feeling of the fruitgrowers at that meeting, because we absolutely fail to see where this Bill has come from —that is to say, it did not originate with the growers and the biggest fruitgrowers in the Nelson District. We do not agree with the exportcontrol portion of the Bill. We cannot see how the formation of an Export Control Board, under the present reading of the Act, is going to improve the conditions at the present time, or that it is going to be of any assistance to us whatever. Wo have a provincial council, which is also subjected to the federation, and they have done good work so far as export of fruit is concerned. We are called upon to pay a certain levy per case for this institution. 3. Mr. Langstone.] What is the amount of the levy ?—I think the levy is 3d. per case ; and it means that if we still continue the existing organization we will have to pay a levy of 6d. per case ; and I submit at the present time the industry is such that it does not warrant the expense that would be involved if the Bill were passed. That was the feeling expressed at the meeting. The other objection to the Export Control Bill was that it is too autocratic —it is too hard altogether. There is no provision in the Bill at all for any private treaty as regards outside Boards from outside the country. There is no provision made for a man to be able to sell to the person he wants to —in other words, no provision is made to ship or consign to any person ho likes. It shuts us down hard and fast to the Control Board, and the feeling of the fruitgrowers is very strong against it, and if the Bill

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goes on to the statute-book that is the finish of it. We have been doing the biggest export trade of the lot, and we feel that our say should carry a good deal of weight. Mr. Rowiings's orchard is thirty years old, and mine is thirty-four years old ; and wo feci that we are quite capable of conducting our own business in a satisfactory manner. On behalf of the fruitgrowers in Stoke I would like to express the opinion that was given to me by the president of the association, to the effect that a clause should be inserted whereby we could please ourselves as to private treaty. Under existing conditions we are absolutely against the formation of an Export Control Board as is set out in the Bill. As regards the local control, personally I have not had any experience with local control in our own district this year, but the experience of my neighbours in connection with the various concerns during the past twenty years has been that they have all fallen in. As a matter of fact, Ido not fall in with the control view at all. At the meeting almost all the members had dealings with the local control. Some put practically all their crop through, and local control was an absolute disaster to them. One man alone put 500 cases of London Pippins through and got Is. 2d. a case, and out of that the cases cost Is. Id. That is our experience of local control —it has been absolutely disastrous. We are all of opinion that if local control for our district and Dominion control go through it is going to intensify the disaster. The orchardist knows his own business best as he makes a lifelong study of it, and there is always something to learn, and I am thoroughly satisfied that with a perishable commercial commodity such as fruit, the man who produces it is the best man to handle it. I could quote you an example of local control in our districts, the case of my next-door neighbour, Mr. Hugbie Young. He joined up with the control and was putting everything through them. His first return was for 100 cases of Munro's. He has not a Munro on his farm. These cases are cropping up everywhere, and when one comes across a mistake like that they are not inclined to do business again in the same quarter. 4. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] You are against export and local control ?—Yes. 5. Have you realized that it is impossible for the Government to go on guaranteeing year after year, and that something must be done ? —Absolutely. 6. What is going to be the position if the Government cease to guarantee ? —You will find every honest orchardist in the Nelson District doing far better. 7. That is news for the Government ?—I am pleased to give it. 8. Mr. Forbes.] How would it be an improvement if the Government withdrew this guarantee;, and how could it operate for the benefit of the industry, as we were assured last season that if the Government did not give the guarantee it would mean disaster to the industry ? —The fruitgrower has a great number of restrictions placed on him by the Government guarantee, and it is thought that if it were not for the guarantee our own orchard men could assist the Department, and. we would got far better support from our own local firms and others interested in the business, and we should be able to get direct shipping from Nelson. 9. You think you could make better arrangements if you were working individually ?—Yes. Last year, for instance, wo wore supposed to have a direct boat. The Right Hon. Mr. Massey practically pledged that wo would have a boat, and made full arrangements in England for it with a view to saving the double handling in having to tranship at Wellington. 10. Do you think you could get a direct boat if the Government guarantee were done away with ? —I am certain of it. 11. Mr Langstone.] What price do you have to get for your fruit, both here and in London, to make it a paying proposition ? —4s. 6d. at orchard, Motueka, for local, and for export we want 15s. a case in London. 12. That is just a shade over Id. per pound ? —Yes. The Government guarantee is Id. per pound, and it is no material advantage to any honest man who is producing and doing his best. It is only keeping the speculators going. 13. Mr. Corrigan.] Does not the freight Home —4s. a case, I think it is—include the coastal freight from Nelson to Wellington ? —I could not say for certain, but I think we still pay lOd. a case to the Anchor Company. 14. There is provision in this Bill for you to manage your own business. From the way you have been giving your evidence one would, think that this Bill was taking the business away from you fruitgrowers altogether. Have you not realized that this Bill is really for the purpose of giving you power to manage your own business as efficiently as you can ? —Well, from the interpretation placed upon it at a full meeting of fruitgrowers, none of us could see that. 15. You have the right to elect your own Board —nobody but fruitgrowers elects them —to control your own business. It is really, therefore, not taking anything away from the fruitgrowers, but is with the idea of assisting them ? —I grant that; but we all maintain that the Board cannot help us. 16. The Bill gives you the right to elect a Board to manage your own business as efficiently as possible in the interests of the fruitgrowers, and it is not going to destroy your production. I venture to say that if you have a Control Board you will be able to get rid of that lOd. a ease from Nelson to Wellington on all fruit exported Home. In the dairy industry the coastal freights are paid by the shipping companies : would not the same thing operate if you had a Control Board ? —I question that; but, at any rate, our opinion is that it is of no use to us. 17. You say that the majority of the people in the Nelson District do not want this Bill ? —I say that the largest and the oldest established fruitgrowers do not want the Bill. 18. Mr. Hudson.] Was it your ordinary monthly meeting on Monday? —No, we held a special meeting for the purpose of considering this Bill. 19. It was advertised, of course ?—No, we did not know until Friday or Saturday, and we had no time to advertise it. We went round and informed the growers, and got them to attend the meeting.

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20. I suppose you understand that if the Bill is passed it is for the growers to decide whether they will go in for local control or not ? —I understand that. 21. If Auckland wanted, it you would not object to that ? —No. 22. It is for them to please themselves ? —Yes. 23. Mr. Langstone.] With regard to the export of fruit, what is your method of finance at present ? —When the crop is gathered, it goes down to the packing-shed, where it is graded by machinery, packed by a gang —it is really a grouping system —and the expenses are totted up at the. end of the season, and we pay our proportion according to the quanity that has gone through the shed. 24. If there was no Government guarantee, would your banker finance you just the same as he does now ? —So far as our district is concerned, I feel quite sure he would. 25. Mr. Corrigan.] I think what Mr. Langstone wanted to ascertain was whether you get an advance on your bills of lading ? —Do you mean from the Government ? 26. From any one ?- - -Yes, we have had fairly good advances from the buyers and the commercial firms that handle the fruit. 27. The Home agents make you advances ? —Yes, up to 10s. a case. Thursday, 4th September, 1924. Henry Turner re-examined. (No. 5.) 1. The Acting-Chairman.] I understand you wish to give some further evidence, Air Turner ? — Yes, sir. There are one or two points I would like to add to the evidence I gave yesterday. I will be as brief as possible!. The first point I wish to raise is this : that we in Otago have been in the position of not being clear altogether as to where this Bill originated. We were; given to understand, at any rate, that the origin of it was in Nelson. Then there is the point in the Bill that whereas for local-market control a vote is provided for, in regard to the export control that right is not granted ; and immediately the Bill goes through, the House it becomes law, and wo will have no vote. We were told by the representatives of Nelson, when we mentioned it, that the majority in favour was so overwhelmingly large that it was a waste of time and money to insert a clause in the Bill providing for a vote in the same manner as the Dairy Control Bill. Now, when we come to Wellington we find that witnesses claiming to represent a considerable; section of the Nelson shippers are against the Bill, and sufficient has been heard to make it quite clear that Nelson itself is not as unanimous in regard to the Bill as we were led to believe. Under those conditions, if the Bill is gone on with, we; in Otago ask that, under the circumstances, a vote should be provided, for in the same manner as in the Dairy Control Act. That is one point, sir. The next point I wish to make is in regard to the Government guarantee. We in Otago do not wish to disregard the guarantee. We want the guarantee ; we; appreciate its support, and we; wish a continuance of it. Then there is the point that whereas for local-market control it is provided that the Boarel can be disestablished under certain conditions, in regard to the export section of the Bill there is no provision that the Board, once set up, can be elisestablished under any conditions at all. That, sir, we; consider shoulel be embodied in the Bill : some provision should be provided for that. That is all I wish to say, and I thank you for the privilege of adding it to my evidence. Thomas C. C. Scott examined. (No. 6.) I.* The Aelimj-Chairman.] What is your full name, Mr. Scott ? —Thomas Chapman Campbell Scott. 2. And your address ? —Commercial Orchardist, Stoke. 3. Will you make a statement ? —Yes, sir. lam representing about 90 per cent, of the Stoke; growers, who are against the Control Bill. Stoke represents probably thirty thousand or forty thousand cases of the most marketable fruit, and we have had a meeting of those who are against the Control Bill, and have carried a resolution that the Bill be struck out; and, failing that, that an amendment be put into the Bill allowing growers such as myself to have a free hand in selling the fruit that we grow ourselves. The trouble is that one control, I. take it, is not sufficient in the matter e>f a, perishable article like fruit. Many selling-powers would be better from our point of view. It would be possible to get through more fruit, and it would be sold at the right time. One of the points I wish to stress rather strongly is that in regard, to this control the time of maturity is not properly understood. As a commercial grower I think that should be so thoroughly understood that no mistake should be made in that respect. The wastage would be enormous if certain varieties were not sold the same week as they are ready for the consumer, and I take it that if a control body tries to assume control of the whole of the output it will be impossible for them to take all the fruit ready in any one week and properly dispose of it; whereas many having control —that is, those who sell their own fruit, or have their own depots, or their own. marketing schemes, could dispose of that fruit, and get rid of it. Then, with regard to clause 6of the Bill, subclause (4), I rather take exception to that subclause there. It states, " The control to be exercised by the Board over any fruit may, as the Board in any case determines, be absolute or limited." Well, as to absolute control, we: would rather not see that at all; but with regard to the limited control, I take it that that would let a grower down. Limited control would let a grower down because they would take certain varieties, and leave him with other varieties he would rather not be left with. Then, with regard to clause 9, subclause (1) (e), in connection with the display of fruit at exhibitions, 1 would like to ask if they know what exhibition fruit means. There is a lot attached to that. Do they know what it means to the grower to have to find exhibition fruit, and probably at the same time have to get his

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other fruit ready for sale ? Then, in the Bill under the export conditions there seems to me; to be; no chance of private treaty outside of the; control. I want to be able to sell to an outside buyer, instead of selling to possibly three appointed agents in the Old Country. A certain agent may suit my market or my varieties much better. Then, I would, like to say, what probably you have; heard before, that local control has been tried in my district, and under the existing circumstances it has been found impossible to make a success of it; and Ido not think it eve;r will be made a success under those conditions. Now, if it is possible to introduce a saving clause, what I would like to se;e would be one in which a man who has a marketing organization should be; allowed to still exercise the; right of selling his fruit in the same way as in the past. I think those are the chief remarks I wish to make. 4. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] 1 take it, Mr. Scott, that your remarks are more against local control than export control ?—Yes.. 5. Are you against export control ? —Not altogether. 6. I suppose you are aware that for a long period of years this guarantee on the export of apples has boon a pretty heavy drain on the Government ?—Yes. 7. And that the control of the; apples from an industrial point of view by the Agricultural Department has not been altogether satisfactory ? —Yes. 8. Are you taking into consieleration the possibility that if the fruitgrowers do not take advantage e)f what is practically outlined in the Bill that the Government may have to seriously consider the epaejstion —after this next year, at any rate —of withdrawing the guarantee ? —Yes, that is a possibility. 9. You understand that we have in vie;w the betterment of the whole industry? —Oh, yes. But these Control Boards have boon tried, and up to the present they have not been successful. 10. But you will recognize that this control system has not been tried ? —Well, something similar has been tried, and it has not been successful. 11. But that control was only a temporary system. It was not based on any general principle of dealing with the-whole, of the export fruit from the Dominion, or the fruit for local consumption. It was only applicable in parts, as it were ? —Yes, but it was an earnest effort. 12. Oh, yes, but you will realize that it was a voluntary business ? —Yes. 13. You will recognize that there may be something in the Bill —that it may be for the betterment of the industry ? —Oh, yes, the idea is for the betterment of the industry. 14. Mr. Forbes.] You are not so strongly opposed to the export control as you are to the local control ? —Not if a man has a right to soil his fruit to any agent. 15. Your objection is mainly to the local control ?—Yes, mainly to the local control. 16. What has been your experience in connection with local control : you have had one recently, I understood you to say ? —Yes. 17. And how has that worked ?—ln Nelson ? 18. Yes. Has it worked for the advantage of the growers?—No; it has not worked for the aelvantage of any of the growers. The chief trouble was the added costs. If the fiuit had been sold when it was ready, or if it had been sold at the same cost that the growers had been put to up to the time; it was taken in charge, Ido not think any complaints would have been made. But immediately the control was started there were added costs, and the grower cannot stand any more costs on top of what he already has to pay. It simply put other men in between the grower and the consumer. That is really what they discovered, I think. 19. Is that opinion fairly general ? —Yes, absolutely —right throughout the district. 20. It did not prove a help at all ? —No ; it proved to be a decided hindrance. It was a matter of them charging Bd. or as much as Is. extra. That means a very large sum when a grower has from eight thousand to ten thousand cases of fruit. You can see what a difference Bd. alone will make to his income. 21. Of course that association was a voluntary one : do you think if it had boon made compulsory that that would have made any difference to its success ? —No ; I think that if it had been made compulse)ry we would have been just farther " in the soup." 22. It was not a question of support ? —No ; it was not a question of support. I think they got sufficient support. Those who did not support them helped them by sending their fruit elsewhere. They had more fruit than they could handle, as it was. 23. How long have you been growing fruit ? —Twelve years now. 21. And have you seen any other attempts at organization in your district ? —Yes, quite a number. 25. And how did they turn out ? —All disastrously. 26. Is it as a result of that experience that you have no faith in the control proposed to be set up under this Bill ? —That is so. ■ 27. From your past experience ? —Yes ; from my past experience I am quite satisfied that that sort of method will not work. 28. On those Control Boards you had there were local men, were there not ? —Yes. 29. Under the Bill they would not be all local men ? —No ; not em the: export part of it. 30. You would have two men from Nelson out of seven ? —Yes. I think that Nelson should have a very much larger representation. 31. You would not feel, confident that Nelson interests were being looked after with two representatives out of seven-?— No ; two on a Board of that size would not be sufficient. 32. Mr. Langstone.] Was the failure of the local control you have mentioned caused by its limited scope of operations : do you think that had anything to do with it ?—Do you mean in its marketing methods ? 33. Yes, in its marketing methods ? —Probably that may have had something to do with it.

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34. Do you not think that if there was a national organization to supervise the marketing of the fruit, instead of just sending it to the auction-rooms, as has been the case in the past, that the people of New Zealand would get a lot more fruit than they are getting to-day, and that there would be less wasted ? —Yes. 35. Could that be done in any other form than that which is outlined in this Bill ? —lf that could be done it would be an ideal way of doing it. But the difficulties are insurmountable. Fruit arriving at maturity must be handled right away. I cannot see any organization that will be able to handle my fruit, and handle the fruit of thousands of other growers, all of different varieties, for different sales, and which must be placed on the market and sold within a week. It would be impossible for them to do that. No one but the grower will know exactly when a certain variety should bo put on the market, and then it must bo sold right away. A large number of varieties cannot be held at all. 36. Would not the Agricultural Department be able to attend to that ?—They would have to be on the spot. They would have to have a man around my orchard all the time. 37. Regarding the personnel of the: Board : supposing the Bill was put into operation, would, it not be only common-sense on the part of the growers to put their best men on the Board ? —Yes, they might do that. But I say it is an impossible task for any one set of men. You could not do it. You would have to go back to the grower after all. 38. With regard, to export to other countries, you believe that individual growers should be able to ship unhampered and unhindered by the: Board ?—Yes. 39. Well, that would mean that there woulel be no control. Supposing a number of other growers took up that attitude, what would be the use of control ?—lt would be no use at all. 40. Mr. Corrigan.] Do you not think that if the growers were to combine that they would get something better than they have at the present time ? —Well, we thought that years ago. We got together, and we tried different schemes, but they proved to be disastrous, and they have all come to the ground. 41. Why were they not successful ? What was the weak spot ?—Well, one weak spot was the management, and. another was the added cost —so much so that the returns were not sufficient. The growers found they could not stand up to it. 42. Was there not a lack of loyalty to the combination ? Was not that a weakness, too ?—Possibly there may have been, but I believe that if everybody had stuck to that particular shipping society or whatever it happened to be at the time, they would still have come to the ground. 43. Well, I think that lack of loyalty and combination may have had.a lot to do with it. Now, why not start and try to make a success of this ? Do you not think that this Bill would bind you together, and help to solve your problems ?—Certainly it would bind us together, and put all the fruit together ; but we would all come down together, and. the: whole blessed business would go to the wall. 44. Is it not possible for you to work together ? —No, it is not possible for us to work together. 45. Mr. Hawken.] Have you found fruitgrowing a particularly profitable occupation ?—ln what way ? 46. Does it pay you ? —Yes, it is a paying proposition. 47. But generally it does not pay ?—Generally it does not. There are: so many loopholes through which money can be lost, and, as I say, the stuff will not stand it. 48. What is your system of marketing ?—We have a system of depots. We sent it all to a depot, and consumers can have their cases of fruit sent to them direct from the depot, or ordinary individuals can buy small quantities. 49. Are you working just by yourself ? —No. I have; a partner, Mr. All port. We have 55 acres of well-grown trees, and. produce about twelve thousand cases. 50. Do you sell your fruit locally ?—lt is distributed. Some goes to Wellington, and some goes to Wanganui. Some of it is sold locally. 51. It is all sold in New Zealand ? —Yes, it is all sold in. New Zealand. 52. Do you make special arrangements for distribution ? —We have our manager at the depot, and ho distributes it from there. 53. Through the auction-rooms ? —No ; nothing goes through the auction-rooms. 54. You have:.been, I suppose, some time working up this business ? —Oh, yes ; it has taken some years. 55. When you have fruit that is ready you sell it right away ? —Yes, we sell it right away, the moment it is ready. 56. You do not make use of cool storage: ?—Well, cool storage: is resorted to in the latter part of the year. In the early part of the year, as soon as it is ready, it goes straight to the consumer. 57. I presume there are not many growers who have such an organization ?—There are quite a number. 58. Do you think there is more fruit grown in New Zealanel than can bo consumed in New Zealand ?—No ; Ido not think so. If the fruit was properly distributed, and not wasted, I think New Zealand could consume all the local fruit. There would have to be, of course, a certain proportion exported. 59. You have done no exporting ?—Oh, yes, we have exported. 60. Have you found it profitable ? —lt was successful so far as the fruit exported was concerned, but there was one hitch : that hitch was that the standard was very'high. When we pulled the fruit from the trees we found that it was not suitable for export according to the standard set up, and it was turned down. There was very rigid inspection of that fruit. And it was not fit for local consumption, because when you pick for export you do not pick for local consumption. There is a difference of a week or two in maturity. Export fruit is picked at an earlier stage of maturity, and it develops on its way to the Old Country, or whatever country it is sent to. But fruit for loe;al consumption should

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be picked in a riper stage, and it should be picked and sent away as soon as possible for local consumption. Well, there was a hitch because the standard was too high, and there was a matter of something like five hundred cases on one occasion turned down, and we had great difficulty in selling it, and the returns were not satisfactory ; whereas if that same five hundred cases had gone to the Old Country they would have realized a good price. 61. Your main contention, I take it, is that you have worked up a good business, and you can sell all your fruit at a reasonable profit, and you wish to remain as you are ? —Yes, that is right. 62. Mr. Field.] Where is your orchard, Mr. Scott ?—Just out of Nelson—at Stoke, five miles out of Nelson. 63. Do you express the views of the whole of the Nelson fruitgrowers ? —No. I do not represent the Riwaka fruitgrowers, but I speak as representing 90 per cent, of the Stoke fruitgrowers. 64. Well, wo understood you were asking for this Bill over there—that you were very disappointed at not getting a Bill last year ?—Well, it was mooted last year, and we were wondering what was going to be put into the Bill. Now we have seen it, only recently, and we find there are things there that will not: work. 65. But you do want a Bill ? —Well, if we: have a Bill we want an amendment put in that will give a free hand to those of us who wish to handle our own fruit. 66. You do not want universal control ?—No. 67. You say that you had five hundred, cases condemned : were those cases condemned here ? — No ; they were condemned at the packing-shed, close handy to the orchard. 68. Are yem satisfied with your method of marketing now ? —Yes, quite satisfied. 69 Do you make use of cool storage ? —Yes, in the latter part of the year. 70. What was the reason that the five hundred cases were condemned ? —They were just condemned because of the high standard, which was sot. The apples had to be of a certain size. The standard was set at 2|, and ours were 2\ apples. 2J apples are now selling higher than any other size in the Old Country. We were anxious that they should go through, but the Inspector said he would not let them go through, as the standard set was 2J. 7.1. They were good-quality apples, but they were condemned on the ground of size ? —Yes ; they were a little below the standard size set. But they were a good marketable size. 72. Why are they doing that if they can get a market as you have ?—Unless a man is on the spot and working his orchard, he might just as well not have an interest in an orchard. 73. That is the point —the management of the: orchard is the main thing ? —Yes; they could make just as much a success of it as some of us are doing. 74. What can you. sell your apples at to make a profit ? —Do you mean off the trees ? 75. Yes ? —Somewhere about 4s. 6d. to ss. per case. 76. A case of how much ?—A full bushel —that is, 40 lb. 77. And what could you sell those apples at in Wellington to make a profit ?■—lt all depemds on the variety to some extent. I should say that the price would be from 3d. upwards. If the variety of apple is a cooker, owing to the large quantity that the trees bear you could sell at a cheaper rate. 78. Roughly, what are the charges from your orohard to the depot in Wellington—that is, including the cost of management ? —I would have to work that out. Roughly, I should say from 2s. 9d. to 3s. 79. Per case ?—Yes. 80. You cannot reduce that ? —Do you want the cost of the case inclueled in that ? 81. Yes ?—4s. 6d. per case. 82. You cannot see any way of reducing that cost ? —No ; you cannot reduce the cost. 83. Have you indicated to the Committee what kind of a Board you do want —I take it that you want to export your own fruit ?—lf you can find a plan whereby we can run our own business, let those who want a Board have one. Alfred Valentine Allport examined. (No. 7.) I. The Acting-Chairman.] Whom are you representing? —I am representing the majority of the fruitgrowers in Stoke —that is, fully 90 per cent, of the fruitgrowers. We had a meeting, and a resolution was carried to the effect that the fruitgrowers did not want this Control Bill. They carried another motion to the effect that if the Bill was carried an amendment should be made to it which would enable any one to sell his own fruit; and they would be glad to have this proviso, that they would guarantee not to sell their fruit below the set price of the Control Board. They would like to have a free hand to sell their own fruit; but they are quite prepared to be under a penalty not to sell under .the price fixed by the Control Board, although they would rather not be hampered by a Control Board, at all, because it would always he held up against them. Once the Bill was put on the statute-book it would be put up to us all the time ; and, moreover, it would give no confidence in their trading, because 10 per cent, of the growers under the Bill could ask at any time for a poll to be taken ; and when that Bill was once carried—if it was, but I am sure it would not be: ; at least, it would not be carried in the Nelson District —it means that we would have to get a petition signed by 25 per cent, of the growers at any time after the expiration of three years before we would be allowed to disestablish the Local Control Board. I submit that if we establish a Control Board it is going to be as much a failure as the present voluntary Control Board is, and it would probably mean that in three years the whole of the fruitgrowers in the Nelson District will be bankrupt. Why I say that control in Nelson would be absolutely of no use is because the rest of New Zealand-is not going in for control. Well, as long as every other district has a free hand it would moan that Nelson,

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if it were under control, would have to meet an added cost of at least Bd. under the oompulsory control, and consequently we could not compete against the other districts at all; in other words it would moan that wo would be " down and out." At the present time we have handicaps in connection with the selling of our fruit that arc not experienced by other districts, and I refer particularly to shipping. Where other districts have a cheap freight, as a consequence of the: railway being alongside or close to their orchards, wo have to contend with sea freight; and there is no getting out eff that. Now, sir, I submit that the representation on the export control is absolutely wrong when you come to realize the amount of fruit that is exported from Nelson. We only have two members on the Board consisting of seven, whereas Hawkc's Bay anel Wellington, which practically" export nothing in comparison with what Nelson does, has one; representative. The whole of the interests of export is in Nelson, and we have two representatives as against the other districts' erne representative. My idea is this :if we are to have a Control Board for the export business the representation should be on. the basis of the fruit exported the previous year, or for two or three years before. Another thing, sir, in. connection with the Board that is proposed to be sot up is that it is altogether too autocratic, and it is my opinion that the Bill is giving those: men more power than a .ludge of the Supreme Court. For instance, they could come to an orchard and tell us what we are to do with our year's labour, and we have absolutely no say in it. If we are going in for an Export Control Board it should go before the growe:rs as a whole, and they should have the right to vote as to whether they want it or not, the same as is done in connection with the Board under the localcontrol scheme. lam quite sure that people have been told and members have been informed that Nelson is unanimous for the Local Control Board, or for the other Control Board. There: is nothing so ridiculous as that, because I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, that there are from 80 per cent, to 90 per cent, of the growers in the Nelson District against it. 2. Mr. Hawken.) Do you speak of the Motuoka district as being in the: Nelson District ?—I am speaking for the; whole of the Nelson District; and I say that from 80 per cent, to 90 per cent, are against it. lam referring to local control there, and I cannot say what the percentage: is for the export-control section, but you have been told that in the local control it is unanimous. AH I can say is that so far as the local control is concerned we are all at sea about it, and my opinion is that we shoulel have a vote taken among the fruitgrowers themselves with a view of ascertaining whether the:y want the control or not. 3. The Acting-Chairman.] Do you mean local control ? —Yes, and export control. If the Bill is passed we shoulel have the right to say whether we will accept it or not. Now, the export control, 1 take it, will be the same: as the present control to a ce:rtain extent, and that it is intended to restrict the selling of the: fruit to two, or three, or four firms in London. To my mind, that is an absolute fallacy, be:cause wo all know that one firm is unable to sell the: quantity of fruit that ten or twenty firms could sell, and if the Control Boarel is going to put the whole business into the hands of two or throe; firms in London, then we are going to get the: whole of the firms that are unable to obtain New Zealand fruit working against us, and I submit that that would be detrimental to the: interests ol the: industry. My opinion is that instead of enlarging the' selling-grounds of Ne:w Zealand fruit on the Lonelon or English markets we are restricting them by having one Control Board ; and, moreover, there arc firms that would deal with firms in New Zealand who would not think of dealing with one Control Board. That is absolutely correct. Under clause 6of the Bill it provides that the Board can come and tell us what wo are to do with our fruit. 4. Mr. Hawken.] For export ?—Yes, they can come to us and. tell us when we have to pick it, and that we have to put it on a certain boat. Any one who knows anything about orcharding at all will tell you that you cannot be bound down to any one day for picking the fruit. It must extend over certain periods. 5. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] It does not say that it would not extend over reasonable periods ? — No; it says in the; Bill that they can tell you when and where to ship your fruit. 6. That is a reasonable thing—they do the same thing with regard to wool, and meat ? —Yes ; but wool and meat are quite different propositions to fruit, because it does not make any difference whether you ship wool to-day or to-morrow —or, for that matter, next month or next year —whereas in the case of fruit it must be picked and shipped in the one day. There is no getting away from that. If you are going to obtain the best results you cannot pick fruit and store it in the sheds, and then expect it to arrive in anything like the condition it would be in if it was picked and shipped on the same day, or the next morning, to do any good at all with it. Then, in clause 9of the Bill they tell us how much we are to ship. 7. Mr. Forbes.] Clause 9 (b) provides for the shipment of such fruit "on such terms and in such quantities as it thinks fit" : that is what is providoel for in the Bill ? —Yes. Well, there may be fifty, sixty, orone hundred cases of fruit that are ready on a particular day to be shipped, and if you are debarred from shipping the fruit on that particular elay it becomes a total loss to the grower, without any liability resting on the Board at all. They can take what they like: of our fruit and ship it, but we cannot say to the Board, " You can take the lot when it is ready." Then, dealing with so many hundreds of growers —that is, little growers who have twenty or thirty cases of fruit to export —rhow is the Board going to find time: to get round to so many of the:m and tell them on the spur of the moment when they have to pick their fruit ? It cannot bo done, because the only man who knows when that fruit ought to be picked and shipped is the grower himself. A Board would have no idea when the: fruit should be picked, by reason of the fact that perhaps my fruit matures to-day, whereas my neighbemr's fruit, which is grown on slightly different land, would mature next week, or a little later, for that matter. It is utterly impossible to go round and find out when the: fruit is ready to pick. Neiw, there is another point in connection with the export scheme, and that is that the Board can

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come and tell us that we must grow, pick, and pack fruit as desired for exhibition, but there is nothing in the Bill to say that they are to pay for it. All they get is what the fruit is sold for. We: all know that there is a lot of work involved in growing fruit for exhibition purposes, and that would be a total loss to the grower concerne;d. 8. Mr. Hawken.] I think you are misreading that clause ? —I do not think so, sir. 9. Mr. Forbes.] In the Bill provision is made that the Board shall give such directions as it thinks proper for the display of any fruit at exhibitions or elsewhere ? They have authority to tell you to do it under the Bill. Then there is another clause to the effect that the Board has full power to mortgage our fruit as if it were their own, and if they mortgage it, according to my reading of the Bill, it means that the growers have to repay the mortgage. 1 think, sir, that that is a power which should not be vested in the Board. Then, with respect to the Local Control Board, I think, as I have pointed out before, it is quite unworkable so long as one; district is controlled and the rest of New Zealand is not under control. Well, the experience of the present Control Board is enough to condemn it for all time, so I do not think I need say much more with regard to that aspect of the matter. 10. Mr. Field.] You said something to the effect that you would give an undertaking not to sell under the Control Board's price if you were given a free hand to market your fruit ?—Yes, that was the feeling of the meeting, and a resolution was passed unanimously at the: meeting to that effect. I may say that it was a meeting not of the Stoke Growers' Assoe:iation, but it was a meeting called for all the fruitgrowers to consider this Bill, and the majority of the growers were there, and the resolution just mentioned was carried unanimously. I will repeat it: that if the Bill was passed at all the fruitgrowers would be willing to come under a clause agreeing not to sell below the price fixed upon by the Control Board. 11. Was that a meeting of all the: fruitgrowers in the Nelson District ? —No, Stoke. 12. Did it extend up to Richmond ? Yes, it extended up to Richmond. 13. You mentioned something about the; restriction of selling-grounds: do you not think it would be possible for the Control. Board to ascertain the selling-grounds just as well as you might do yourselves ?—I do not think so, because; it is one body, and. I do not think you will get all the buyers to go to one selling body, the same as would happen if the fruit was distributed to, say, a dozen or so different bodies. They all have their favourites —that is, the buyers have their favourites to deal with. They are mixed up in lots of ways, and Ido not think the Control Board would be able to get the best of a lot of those firms. If the firms could not get the fruit from the Control Board, well, they wemld get it from Australia, Tasmania, or anywhere else. It is nothing to them as long as they get the fruit. 14. It would be an undue disturbance of the present conditions of marketing ? —Yes, absolutely. In the days when we were under private dealers we were in a far better position than we are to-day — with all the restrictions and control that we are under at the present time. We could then sell our fruit to whom we: liked, and get a good payable price for it. But since the restrictions have come in, and the private dealers have been cut out, we have nothing like the scope. 15. With regard to the representation on the Board, I understand that most of the fruit comes from Nelson and Otago ? Do you mean export fruit ? 16. Yes, export fruit. —That is correct. 17. What do you suggest should be the representation ? —Well, it should be based on a proportion of the fruit exported for the previous year, or for the three previous years—not on a district basis at all. It shemlel be according to the amount of fruit exported. Those who are exporting are the people who are interested in it. 18. Then you think the proposal for representation according to districts under the Bill is unsatisfactory, anil you do not know any way by which it could be made satisfactory ? —I do not think control altogether would be satisfactory, but it would be much more satisfactory if the representation was, as I say, on an export basis. 19. Would that be quite a simple matter ? —Well, 1 do not see why it should not be. 20. Then there is the; question about your being harassed,by being forced to pick and pack your fruit at a fixed time —at a fixed day. Do you not think you are rather looking for trouble there ? Is not that a matter of arrangement with your local association at the present time ?—Oh, no ; wo do not arrange in that sort of way at the present time. For instance, take a large orchard, say, the same as ours, of about 55 acres : It takes five or six days to do the spraying. Well, if the Board came along and told us " You have got to ship five hundred cases of apple's by a certain elate," we are bound then to ship on that date, and our spraying goes by the board. And the next thing we find is that we have the Government Inspectors down on us for having blight in our orchard. The spraying must be. done, or else we will have no fruit for export. The spraying must be done : that is one of the things that must be done at the right time. Well, supposing the Board came and said, just when that spraying ought to be done, ' : You have got to go and pack up your fruit," what sort of a position would the orchardist be in then ? 21. Could not that be elone by the Board after consultation with the local association of growers ? —No. An assoejiation cannot tell you when you are to spray : that must be decided upon by the' indivielual. fruitgrower. It must be decided upon by the individual fruitgrowers concerned every time. Each individual grower has got to do his work in the best way he can. 22. In regard to fruit-inspection, that is comparatively a small matter ? Oh, ye-s. 1 just mentioned that in passing. It is only a small matter, really. 23. Have you received fair payment for your exhibition fruit ?- We have only received the average price for exhibition fruit. It does not pay us, because of the extra amount of work involved. 21. You say you must have a special prie;e ? Oh, yes. We could not elei exhibition fruit for double; the; orelinary price.

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25. With regard to one district being under control and another not, do you not think that, if this Bill comes into force, it ought to apply to the whole country ? —Absolutely —if it does. But my contention is that it is absolutely un-British to force people to do anything like that which is proposed in the Bill. It is absolutely against British nature, to be forced and coeroed. 26. Mr. Hawken.] Are you a partner of the last witness ?—Yes. 27. What proportion of the fruit from Nelson is exported from the; province ? —I could not say. 28. But what is your estimate:--just a rough guess ?- Well, I should say, about half of it. 29. I mean, sent out of the district for either Dominion consumption or e:xport ? —Oh, 95 or 97 per cent., I suppose. 30. What makes you think that local control would be of no service to you ? —Absolutely, it would be of no service to us. Local control means that we cannot ship our fruit to Wellington unless the' Board comes and tells us that we can. We cannot ship it to Wellington, and we cannot ship it anywhere. We cannot even sell fruit, under this Bill, to any one: who conies into the orchard and wants to buy a case of fruit. That often happens. We' eiould not sell it to them without a permit, 31. Did I understand you to say that about 50 pe;r cemt. was exported from the country ? -Yes, L should say about 50 per cent, is exported out of the country from Nelson. But that is only a guess. 32. Do you understand the working of the Control Boards in connection with meat and butter ? —Yes ; 1 have heard of them. 33. Do you understand that they have not takem full control ? I have not taken a great interest in them. 34. Each grower has a perfect right to export so far, and select his own agent so far ? Yes. 35. The only thing that the Board does is to see that the quality is kept up, and arrange for the shipping and the overseas selling ? —Yes. 36. Would not that be satisfactory from your point of view ? —Well, I think they could do quite. a lot in that way —that is to say, in finding out whi're the markets are, and advising the growers. But when they come to try to handle the whole of the fruit in bulk, as this Bill proposes —well, with an article like fruit, that is absolutely impossible. 37. Of course you understand that powers may be taken in the Bill which are perhaps rather necessary in order to get the growers into it and in oreler to get satisfactory control. In order to get limited control you must have full control ? —Yes, that is right; but then we are up against this all the time —that a man cannot go and extend his business as long as that law is hanging ove r his head. He cannot go with any confidence and extend his business. 38. Do you not think, if you put gooel men on the: Board, that they will have a reasonable amount of common-sense in that direction ? Ido not think they wemld want you to spray your orchard or to pick your fruit without reason ? —No, I do not suppose they would. 39. Now, do you not think that it would be of benefit to yourself, and to other large growers, if there was somebody to look after your produce from the time if is shipped until it arrives at Home' and is placed on the market ? —No, 1 do not think it woulel be, because we: have that already in oonneotion with the: ordinary commercial firms. They e:an do that, anel do it far more efficiently than any Control Board could de> it. What 1 saiel was that I thought an advisory Board to advise growers as to the shipping anel marketing e>f their produce', could ele> a lot of good. 40. Do you think it weiulel be wise to have somebody to look after the commercial agents ? —Oh, probably. 41. You cannot look after them, can you ?—Not myself. But people would not ship through these firms if they had not confidence in them. 42. There is nothing in the: Bill restricting the proeluoer in that respect, excepting that he must senel his produce through a oertain channel ?—Oh, yes. If you put it through a certain channel you are restricting your channels. 13. But you can use yenir own agent —whoever you please'. The Control Boarel sees to your quality, to your shipping, anel them overseas that agent of yours ? —Yes. 44. It arranges for the shipping and all the various things. I should say that fruit is one of the things that has to be shipped exactly at the right time ? —That is right. 45. And in order to get that done there will be on the Board experts who woulel be in a good position to do that for you ?—Oh, yes, if they could arrange that. But they should not have' the absolute control over the fruit that-this Bill gives. 46. But do you not see that you could not have any system of control without absolute control ? What I mean to say is that there would be no force behind the Board unless there was absolute control to be used as a last resource ? —Yes. But Tdo not know that it is a last resource. I think we weiulel be. better off without the control at all. 47. Are there not a great many growers who are not in your position, and who cannot look after their interests —the smaller men ? Suppose a man produces twenty, thirty, or forty cases :he cannot look after them like you can ?—That is right. But there is nothing to prevent a eloze'n or more of such men combining together in a small group and shipping together. 48. But would it not be better to have one Beiarel to do the' we>rk for them ?—I think that any grower should have the right to say whether lie will employ that Boarel, or allow any one else' te> handle' Ids fruit. 49. You weiulel employ an agent, while a number of other growers weiulel employ the Board anel an agent would be appointee! to act for the Beiarel ?- Yes. 50. It woulel simplify the' marketing of fruit, as far as I can see. Dei you not think that would be the effect ?—No. 51. I. am speaking of export, not of local control ? —No. We have tried community packing —anel that is what it means —and it has been a dismal failure ; it has been an absolute failure.

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52. You have heard of the combinations that they have' in America in connection with fruit, and the great success of some of them ? —Yes, some of them have be<3n successful. But there they have the principle: that we are, asking for. Not one: of them is compulsory : they are all voluntary. 53. That is so ? —There is not a compulsory one in the: lot: they are all voluntary. 54. Dei yeiu not think you could get the growers together into a combination very much quicker and more economically by having an Act of Parliament than, by going to the enormous expense eif getting them together? —No, Ido not think so. All the Acts of Parliament in the world will never save a lot of the growers from going under. With all the control that you like to get, there are some that yeiu would never save from going under. 55. That is so in every industry. We are considering the industry as a whole. The combinations in America have been of enormous advantage: to the fruitgrowers—raisin-growers anel orange-growers, for instance ?—Well, from what we read that is so. At the same time there are an enormous number of growers who will not come: under those Boards. 56. Mr. Langstone.] With regard to the exporting of the fruit by the present federation : do they e:xport all the fruit, or elei they only make arrangements for the small growers ? —At the present time they arrange the shipping, and also, where: the small growers are concerned, they arrange with private firms to do the packing and to ship to agents in London. 57. You are against all forms of compulsion ?—Yos, I am, when it means making us give: up the results of our labour for twelve months to a Boarel of Control that we have no confidence in, Ido not wish to be egotistical, but I think I can manage my own business bettor than any Board of Control can manage' it for me. 58. Has the grading been a good thing ? —Well, it has in a way ; but the grading, in my way of looking at it, is absolutely wrong. We waste'an awful lot of money in the grading. We growers have neiw to go to the: expense of grading our fruit into three grades for the London market, where one grade would bo cheaper and would fetch just as much on the market. I have never hoard of any one getting more for their " extra fancy " grade on the London market than they did for their " good " grade:. In fact, in lots of cases that I have heard of " good " grade has brought a higher price than the " extra fancy " grade. So that wo are wrong altogether in that way. It seems to me that the Now Zealand growers are put to a lot of unnecessary expense in having to grade their fruit into three different classes, when 1 know for a fact that the one class is a better selling article than those divided up into three. 59. Do you think that the Boarel woulel arbitrarily come forward and toll yeiu to pick your fruit when it was not ready ? If it was a Board elected by the fruitgrowers, surely it would have: enough common-semse to know eir to find out when the fruit in your orchard should be: picked ? —I can only say this : that no one in the growing of fruit can toll a fortnight ahead when he ought to pick his fruit—when it will be ready. 60. Would you like the Government to withdraw their guarantee —woulel that be inimical to the interests of the industry ?— I think that the Government should withdraw their guarantee. I have advocated that for years. Wc would be: em a far better wicke;t if the Government withdrew their guarantee, and withdrew all the restrictions that are put on fruit for export at the present time. There: is too much inspection altogether. Ido not believe that a, man should be allowed to export rubbish, but it is adding too much to the cost to the grower to have: to pay for the whole of the inspection and the faels that we: get from a lot of the Inspectors. 61. Could those things be left to the discretion of the individual!—Yes, up to a certain point. I would only make it prohibitive to export anything below a certain grade. 62. With respect to the charge of 3d. per case, what would that amount to in your district ? —I could not say what it would amount to in my district, but it would amount to about £160 a year to my firm. 63. Would that extra 3d. drive any of the growers into bankruptcy ?—I do not say that it would drive them into bankruptcy —I do not say that. til. There are other extra charges ? —Yes. There are: a lot of other extra charges besides that 3d. There is a charge of 3|d. for brigading, point, handling, sorting, repacking, &c., and then.there is 2J per cent, for bad debts. It comes to somewhere about Bd. a case altogether. The 3d. only would be equal to about £160 a year to my firm. 65. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] I think you said you attended the meeting that was held ? —Yes. 66. Was the meeting open to all, eir only to those who were opposed to the Bill ?—lt was advertised asking those: to come who were opposed to the Bill or who wished to see an amendment to it. But I want to say this : that practically all the fruitgrowers in Stoke were there, excepting those that were accounted for. Most of those that were away I know were opposed to the Bill. 67. You only surmise that —you do not know ? —Oh, yes, I do know. 68. Was not the meeting called by those who were against the Bill and who were coming before this Committee ? Was it not called by those who were putting up a fight against the Bill ?—No, it was not that. It was left until the last moment. We were expecting that the present Control Board would call a meeting to discuss the Bill, and it was left until the last minute. There was no move on the part of the District Committee, or the Fruitgrowers' Association, or the present Control Board to call meetings to discuss the Bill, so we took it into our own hands and put an advertisement in the paper calling the meeting, because we knew there was such a strong feeling against it. 69. Did the advertisement state that you were calling a meeting against the Bill ? —The advertisement asked those who were opposed to the Bill, or who wished to see amendments made to the Bill, to attend the meeting.

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70. So that it was a meeting of those who were opposed to the Bill. Was the resolution against the Bill unanimous ? —The resolution was this : It was proposeel that the Bill be: left in, but that an amendment be made to it allowing growers to se:ll their fruit privately provided they did not sell below the Control Board prices. An amendment proposed that the Bill be struck out altogether. The amendment was put first, and it was carried by sixteen to eleven. And then the: other motion was put —that in the event of the Bill being passed the amendment should be put in. Well, that was carried unanimously. Although the others were really opposed to the Bill they said this : that they were going to be far better off with the, amendment in the Bill than without the Bill altogether, because they knew they would be able to successfully compete privately against those who went in for control. 71. You made a statement to the effect that the fruit would be required to be shipped at short notice : .do you get much notice now with regard tei shipping your fruit ?—No, we get a wire from our depot or shops. I have not been exporting fruit for the past three years. 72. You do not really know anything about the export conditions ? —No ; as I said, I have not been exporting fruit for the last three years. 73. If a man is tied up to a firm or firms he has to do what he is told, because he cannot find the finance to get away from them ? —I believe that is often so. 71. You would still have to abide by their methods if you continue dealing with them ?—Yes. 75. Is that not the position of a good many of the fruitgrowers in the Nelson District ? —I know that a lot of them are in a bad way. 76. There is a large number, I understand, who are so situated ? —I would not say a large: number. 77. The Acting-Chairman.] The Hon. Mr. Nosworthy is referring to the Nelson Province ? —I do not know that there are a tremendous number. The only people that I know of who are, in that position are those men who have their orchards on unsuitable land, and those orchards absentees have planted and not properly looked after. In the case of absentees, they are dependent on managers and men to do the work for them. In the fruitgrowing industry, when all is said and done, it all depends on the individual as to whether or not a success is made of it. 78. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] Supposing you were to got a combination of individuals who were: triors, surely the position would be much stronger than would be the case of one individual trier ?— No, those who are dragging on behind are apt to pull the others down, with them. 79. That is so, but we are trying to get over that difficulty. You said you do not like the fads of the Inspectors ? —No, sir, I do not. 80. You think the industry would be a goeid deal better without any Inspectors ? —Except that Inspectors could be sent to places in order to prevent people from sending away absolute: rubbish. I may say that in my own case, three years ago, owing to a fad of the Inspectors, I—or, at least, my firm —lost five hundred eases of King David apples. They were absolutely perfect apples. We picked them all in good faith and took them to the shed, and we were told that we would not bo allowed to ship 2| apples of the King David variety. As I say, we lost the whole of those five hundred, cases. We may have sold twenty or thirty cases, or a little more:, but they were: sold at a loss, for the reason that they were picked somewhat on the immature; side because they were picked for export. That being the case they were absolutely useless for the New Zealand market, on account of their not being matured. Since that time we have set to work and sold all our fruit in New Zealand. 81. I understand the size has been since reduced because, the consumers prefer a smaller size ?— I believe that that is so. 1 think the Government Inspectors did 82. I am given to understand that the London market would not accept the size that you spoke of ?—According to my information that is wrong, because they always asked for a small apple. 83. Then you are e)pposed to any different method to that existing'at the present time : if you had your way you would not have the Government guarantee, and you would also have the Government Inspectors done away with to a ce;rtain extent ? —I believe, and leave: done so for years, that we should be far better off without the Government guarantee, and then we should not have so many Government Inspectors, with their fads, increasing the cost of packing. 84. You realize at the same time that certain men in the apple industry would destroy your business, as well as that of everybody else, if it were left to them to put what they liked on to the; market ? —They do not interfere with us very much. I submit that if you put a good article on the market you are bound to get the sale for it. 85. Would it not have a bad effect on. the industry if a lot of bad apples were shipped to England ? — I would not like rubbish to be sent Home ; but there are a lot eif restrictions at the present time which add to the cost very considerably. For instance, there is the wiring of e:ases : that is only putting money into American firms' hands, because we ship to Dunedin, Auckland, anel elsewhere withoutwiring the cases, and 1 submit that when they are shipped to Auckland or Dunedin they get far more: handling and knocking about than woulel be the case with fruit sent to England, by reason of the fact that once the fruit is on the boat it is not touched until it reaches its destination. There is nothing to knock them abeiuf on board the ship, and consequently there is no necessity for the wiring of the cases. 86. Are you not aware that on occasions the wharves were littered with apples before' the: wire binding was introduced ?—I do not know whether it was due to that. 87. It was so ? —We do not see that in connection with the local fruit, and there is more handling of the fruit for local consumption than is the e;ase Math fruit going to London. It is absolute carelessness on the part of those handling the fruit if the boxes are broken. 88. Mr. Corrigan.] At the present time does anybody come along and compel you to pick vour fruit at a certain period of the year ? —No.

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89. Do you think you would be: compelled, if this Bill became law, to do that ?—lt says so in the Bill —that is, the Board shall direct us when and how to pick it. 90. Quite so ; bu't dei you not think they woulel leave; it to your own discretion when to pick it ?— It says in the Bill that the Boarel will have: full authority to make arrangements and give: such directions as it think;; proper for the shipment and disposal of such fruit, when it thinks fit. We cannot pick apples to-elay on the chance of getting an order to-morrow. Apples are no good if they are kept a week ; they must be dealt with the same day as they are picked. 91. You mentioned that you did not think that the grading of the fruit was in the: best interests of the; producers ?—That is so. 92. Where did you get that information from ? —From different people I know in England, anel also from the well-known exporter of Tasmania!) apples, Mr. Boss Walker ; and he: is very decided em the point. He: says that (dividing them up into three different grades has no commercial value on the London market, lie is supposed to be a very geieid authority on the question. 93. Of bourse, you will admit that it depends on how you place' the- fruit on the market, the price you obtain for it ? —Yes. 94. Do yeiu not think it is far better not to pack small apples and big apples together ?— It is impossible to pack satisfactorily big apples and little ones together. lam not referring to the size at all when I speak about the three different grades : I am referring to quality. 95. Do you bedong to the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Association ?—I be;long to the Stoke Fruitgrowers' Association, anel they are affiliated to the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Association. 96. Are the: conditions obtaining at present quite satisfactory ?—The Nelson Fruitgrowers attend to the marketing of your fruit and you are quite satisfied with that arrangement ? —They do not dispose of it. They in a way arrange for shipping and that sort of thing, but the fruit is disposed of through different firms. 97. Do they not render you account sales, collect the money, and thai' sort of thing ? —I cannot tell you, because I have not had anything to do with them for three years. As I have already informed you, I have not done any exporting for the last three years. 98. 1 have' here account sales from the: Nelson Fruitgrowe:rs' Association, and the particular one I refer to is for thirteen cases, and shows the gross amount they received was £4 lis., less brokerage charges £1 6s. 6d., leaving a balance of £3 4s. 6d. Then on top of that there is brigading charges amounting to 3s. 10d., labels 2s. Bel., and bad debts fund 2s. 3d., and this brings the total down to £2 15s. 9d. Then, another account saks shows cool-storage charges on thirteen cases of fruit amounted to £1 Bs. 2d. ; and you follow em and there is £2 15s. 9d. plus the £1 Bs. 2d. taken out of the £4 lis., and the net balance the grower gets is £1 7s. 7d. It will be seen, therefore, that out of £4 lis. worth of goods supplied the, producer gets £1 7s. 7d. Do you think that that state of things is satisfactory to you ? —No, Ido not. That is not the present proposed Local Control Board—that is the voluntary Control Board's charges you have got, there. I may say that I have seen worse cases than that. Fortunately we —that is, my firm—do not ship through the Local Control Board. 99. I have another account sales here, and it shows out of a, total sum of £11 19s. the gross charges only come to £2 Bs. 9d. and the net return derived is £9 10s. 3d. ?—ls that the account sales of the Control Board ? 100. No, it is the account sales of a private firm ? —That is where the difference; comes in. 101. Do you not think, in the ■ interests of the fruit-producers in New Zealand, that if this Bill becomes law it will help you to get down to a far better business proposition than you have: at the; present time ? —No, absolutely no, because we would be putting in another middleman in the shape of a Board, and this would arid to our present costs. 102. But you must not forget that the Board is elected by yourselves, and you would be able to eliminate many of the existing difficulties, anel, furthermore, you would be: able to put the matter on a businesslike: footing —the Board would belong to the producers ? —The Board is there, but we have to pay for the extra Board. They cannot go out and sell the fruit unless they employ the agents that we have at the present time. 103. Yeiu could not get in a much worse position than you are in at present unless you have nothing at all ?—Those who are sealing their fruit themselves are not getting the bad prices you have quoted—that is, the Control Board's prices. 104. One of the account sales quoted by me was from a gentleman who gave evidence: against the Control Board ?—Well, I should say if he got that account sales from the Control Board it would be sufficient to make him be against any Control Board. 105. You think that the other one 1 quoted from a private firm is better ? —Absolutely. 106. Mr. Field.] You arrange things better than that ? —lt would mean that I would have to go out eif the fruitgrowing industry if I could not do better than that. 107. Mr. Corrigan.] Your idea is to leave things as they are? —Yes, far better than a Control Board like that. 108. You said you did not like Government Inspectors—there was too much inspection. Do you think it is necessary to have Inspectors in order to keep men up to their work who are slackers and breed pests and all sorts of things to the detriment of producers such as yourself ? —I said that be:fore. I believe in every one being compelled to keep their orchards clean and to ship fruit up to standard. 109. Then you would only agree to have inspection up to a certain point, and in connection with a new man starting in business you would agree that an Inspector should visit him. and advise him the best way to go about his business ? —I should say it would be all right. I would have been a long way better off if I had not taken, the advice of Inspectors in lots of cases. lam not referring to the present-day Inspectors at all—l am speaking of some years ago.

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110. Yeiu will no doubt agree with me that in connection with the question of production experience is one of the greatest factors in it ?—Absolutely. 111. Supposing a man were to start in the fruit industry, elo you not think it would be far better lor him to obtain the experience: at the commencement? —Yes. I 12. Do you not think that if an Inspector wore: available, it would be better for the: individual ooncerned to teach him hew yeiu have progressed, and other men in the industry have: progressed, by taking advantage of the best methods available ? —Lots of nien have come to me and asked me: what I thought about the fruit industry. When anybody has come to Nelson with the intention of going in for fruitgrowing and has come to me for advice I have always told him that before buying an orchard it would be better for him to get in with a good grower for. a year or two and work for wages until ho learns something about the industry. 113. And it is good aelvice, too -the: Govejrnment put on Inspectors for the purpose: eif advising people: as to the best methods of fruitgrowing ?—They do a lot of good in that way. 111. The, Ac(mg-Chairman.] As a result of the experience the Nelson growers have; had in connection with the control recently you are of the opinion that they are against the idea of this control ?—Absolutely. I 15. Would you say a big majority are against it ? —I should say 90 per cent, are against it. 116. In that case this Bill will not affect them, because it will be left to themselves—unless there are 50 per cent, in favour of the Bill, so far as local control is concerned, it will not affect them ? —Look at the expense the country is put to in connection with the taking of the vote ; and then it would be held as a sword over our heads all the time, because if you obtain a petition signed by 10 per cent, of the growers you can get another vote on the subject at any time. 117. Not within a reasonable time ?—lt docs not say that. 118. I think the time' provided is twelve months? —No; the Bill provides that twelve months after the Bill is carried it comes into foicc. The way I rcael the Bill was that the: producers could actually have another poll immediately provided 10 per cent, of the producers signed a petition. 119. 1 do not think that is the position. Now, as regards your assertion that the: Board would actually give you trouble: in connection with the grading, the terms of the Bill provide, " The: Board shall have full authority to make such arrangements and give such directions as it thinks proper for the following matters : (a) For the graeling, packing, handling, and storage of fruit of which it has assumed cemtrol " ; anel then it goes on to provide with respect to the: shipment, sale', and so on of fruit. Do you not think that that would be in the interests of the producers ?—We elo not want a Board there with that power so far as we; are concerned. We: think that the: power given to the Board under that clause is far meire than that; given to a Judge of the: Supremo Court. Gerald TREVOR Hull examined. (No. 8.) 1. The Acting-Chairman.] Whom do yeiu represent ? —1 am representing Messrs. Redpath and Sons (Limited). lam appearing before this Committee to-day as a broker's representative, and to say that, in my opinion, this Export Control Bill is not going to be: to the ultimate benefit of the fruitgrowers. I am quite satisfied on that point, and I weiuld just like to refer, if I am in order, to what I might term the' precipitate action eff the Minister in regard to the Order in Council issued restricting the shipment of apples to Semth America. I think that my firm might take; a little of the creelit for the small shipment of apples that was sent to South America in 1922, and the price obtained for the consignment in question was very satisfactory from the point of view of the growers. In 1923 we shipped some eight theiusand cases, and the price was entirely satisfactory, so much so that there was no call on the Government for anything in the matter of return to make: good. I have the wheih; list here of the: summaries giving the average: f.o.b. prices returned to the growers. Well, em the strength of this we were quite satisfied that we had opened up a good market for the benefit of the: growers. I may say that the: whole of this business was done on consignment in 1923, and I will go so far as to say that the departmental officers we:re quite satisfied with the return and also the acceiunt sales, and, moreover, audited the sales in order to see that there, were no errors in them, anel they were returned. to us entirely satisfactory. Prior to December, I think it was, at the request of the Director of Agriculture', I met in his office the Export Committee, and we were asked to co-operate with them in the matter of consignments of fruit, but nothing was done ; they merely asked for our co-operation. In order to make a long story short, communications were carried on by the federation which resulted in an eireler for fifty theiusand cases of apples for South America. This was, I understand, made subject that no other apples were to be allowed to be shipped out of the ceiuntry by any grower enexporter. I appealed by letter to the Minister to give: us a hearing before the Order in Council went through, but it was not granted. I understand that the; Minister was absent from Wellington at the time. Hon. Mr. Noswmihy : I am responsible: no matter whether I am away from Wellington or whether I am here. Witness : However, .we receiveel a letter stating that it ceiuld not be: granted, anel consequently we were prohibited from sending fruit away for the; growers both in Otago and Nelson. I may say that at least twenty-five thousand cases weiuld have been shipped by us to this particular broker had it not been for the Order 1 in Council in question. , However, this Oreler in Council went through. I cannot tell you heiw it turned out. The: Government may have, been satisfied, but that is not the point. The Minister in issuing that Order in Council gave a monopoly to a firm, not in the Argentine, but to an outside firm in Uruguay. Neiw, the position was —and lam inclined to think my opinion

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is right—that the Argentine wholesale merchants took some sort of umbrage at the fact that the New Zealand Government had given a monopoly to a Uruguayan firm-that the Ne;w Zealand Government had given that firm the: sole: right to sell a certain quantity of apples in the: Argentine. Neiw, my opinion is that, instead of the apples being elisposed of, the bulk of them went into cold steirage. Whether they eleteriqrated or not Ido not know. But what the grower has missed in regard to that sale is this : that he did not have those apples distributed as they should have been throughout the Argentine, where there are many large cities besides Buenos Aires The Acting-Chairman : You are going outside the Bill. Witness : lam coming round to the Bill. lam pointing out that if a rigid control Bill goes through it will give the same power to this Export Control Boarel, wlm will exercise their right just the same, as the Minister has done under the principal Act. I cannot tell you what that Act is, but he has that- right, 1 understand 2. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] There, was an offer from South America for a, certain limited quantity of fifty theiusauel cases from the, federation ?— We'll, I understand it was limited-to that, but why was the sale made conditional ? 3. So that the market would not be: Hooded with consignments ? Well, sir, what I weiulel like to say is this : that that embargo prohibited the sending of New Zealanel apples to the, Argentine, but it could not stop the Tasmanian or Australian people sending their apples. I e:an tell yem that 1 had an offer to ship ten thousand cases of Australian apples to South America last season in refrigerated space, and. we coulel easily have shipped that ten thousand, castas there and sei upset the sale with competition from Australia. Therefore 1 say that rigid restriction like that does not benefit the growers. And it has brought this in : that the Tasmanian fruit is more than likely to go in there next year. Our own particular firm of brokers have: stated that as they cannot ge:t New Zealand fruit they must look to Tasmanian. 4. Is not your firm in business in Tasmania, as well as in either countries ? You are not in the Now Zealanel business alone ? —That may be so, sir, but wo are in the New Zealand business, and through being in the New Zealand business we do not wish to take advantage and destroy what might possibly be a good market. However, lam quite satisfieel that this rigid control, as suggested in the Bill, is not going to be beneficial to the growers in the long-run. Now, in regard to exporting to the English market, I have heard it stated that it is proposed that the growers shoulel be restricteel to three' or four recognized firms of English brokers. Well, sir, I think that would be a mistake. The; time must come when the guarantee will have to be discontinued. The Government cannot gei on indefinitely continuing the guarantee. Therefore if you arc going to restrict your business to three or four firms you are going to restrict your finance. The greater number of brokers there are competing the better chance there is of getting better finance—more liberal finance. Personally, I think that the guarantee is no benefit at all at present beyond the fact that the grower gets a little better advance to-day than he weiuld under the ordinary advances. Australia and Tasmania, as no doubt you know, are entirely financeei by English brokers, who make advances to cover shipping and other charges— and I belierve this season they came to 7s. 6d. Well, manage to carry on without the guarantee. I may say that I have heard it stated in a fruitgrowing district that the guarantee helps them to get rid of stuff they do not want to sell locally. As long as they gert Id. per pound for such stuff they are satisfied. Well, I elo not think that is what the guarantee is intended for. Ido not think I have very much more to say, sir, except this: that this Government Control Bill, if it is rigidly enforced to the extent proposed, will not be beneficial to the growers in the long-run. I may say that I think the Government graeling system, as it is at present carried out by the Department, is most excellent; and I. also think the Fruitgrowers' Federation are doing most excellent work in connection with shipping and other similar matters, but I do not think that they should enter into the merchaneiising side of the business. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : With regard to what you say about the Order in Council, the Order in Council was made in order to protect the? conelitiems of a sale made by the Fruitgrowers' Federation — the feeleration recognized as the heael of the fruitgrowers —to a South American buyer, who made a good offer, subject to him handling all the New Zealand fruit, sent to South America that year; and our object was to try and regain the market wo had lost. This offer was quite the best one made, and it was therefore accepted, It was for fifty thousand cases. All the information we> had was to the' effect that the South American market coulel only absorb fifty thousand oases of New Zealanel apples in one season, and this was confirmed by your own agent in South America ; and it was to stop other people shipping indiscriminate quantities of fruit until we got the market re-established again that the Oreler in Council was issue:d. That was the object I had in view. Witness : Do yeiu think, sir, that that sale was a good sale ? Hon. Mr. Nosworthy: I think it was better than it weiuld have been if there had been no embargo. Witness: Dei yeiu think that a sale made subject to arrival in good condition is a gooel c.i.f. sale ? Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : It was subje;ct to arrival in proper condition. It was not shipped in cold storage. It was shipped in the same way as the fruit had been shipped prior to the: war. As it happened, this particular lot elid not arrive in such good condition as fruit had been in the habit of arriving prior to the: war. Witness : Was there any reason for its not arriving in gooel condition ? Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : There was the same reasem that we' have had in connection with some of the shipments to London. Some of them have arriveel in good condition, and some of them have not arriveel in such good condition. That is the only reason I can give you. You know that that is a fact. Shipments from Tasmania and Australia often arrive; in the same varying conditions. I

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think it is a question of cold storage. If the fruit is sent in cold storage I believe it will arrive in good condition. 5. Mr. Forbes.] Have you had much to do with the: export of fruit to the Old Country under the guarantee ? —Yes, we: have been shipping for the past three or four seasons. 6. Under the guarantee has the grower freedom to ship to whomever he likes ?—Do you mean to whichever broker ho likes ? 7. Yes ? —He is at liberty to ship to whichever broker he likes, provided the agent is approved by the Government under the guarantee. 8. Are there not advantages to be gained by having this Export Board, in connection with better freights, and direct shipments, and matters of that sort ? Have there not been complaints about not having direct shipments from Nelson ? —I understand there have bee:n. Efforts have been made to have shipments from Nelson elirect. That is a matter for the shipping companies. 9. Is it not possible to arrange that ? — Without a doubt. 1 do not see any difficulty whatever. 10. Would it be-a great improvement ? —Yes ;it would mean a large saving in the charges. It would mean a large: saving in the Harbour Board charges, and in the other charges for handling. I I. Do you mix among the fruitgrowers sufficiently to be in a position to give us an opinion as to the attitude: of the: fruitgrowers towards this Bill ? —No, not sufficiently to ascertain that. I understood before 1 heard some of the evidemce here that it was almost unanimemsly approve:el in Nelson, and 1 am very much surprised that the Nelson growers here to-day are not in favour of the, Bill, 12. What is the position of the industry there —is it in a desperate condition ?—Nelson ? 13. Yes ? —I have been informed so, but I think it is geiing through a transition period. 1 think it will come out all right. The whole thing seems to me to be a question of poor land. Some of the orcharels are on poor land and some of them are on good land. It is almost impossible for a man with an eirchard on poor land to make: it pay. 1.4. Mr. Langstone.] The cargo-steamers coulel run to quite a number of the ports in New Zealand instead of merely going to one or other of the chief centres ? —Undoubtedly, 15. But that woulel make the freights much heavier ?—Undoubtedly. 16. If the steamers are a long time travelling round the coast the: shipping companies will charge for that time ? —Undoubtedly. That goes on to the charges. 17. Yeiu are: not a grower, Mr. Hull, are you ?—No, I am not a grower. 18. What did you mean when you said that the growers should not enter into the merchandising side of the business ? —I said that I did not think it was right that the federation or the proposed Control Beiard shoulel elo so. 19. If it is a fair question, I weiuld ask yeiu what commission you charge for handling the produce ? -Five per cent. That is the English brokers' charge:. They repay us a percentage of that for our services out here. 20. Mr. Hawken.] You made a remark to the effect that the Government guarantee: was of no benefit to the fruitgrowers in your opinion : is that correct ?—I said that ultimately it would prove: of no benefit, although it may tide them over a period just now. At the present time it gives the growers the benefit of a little additional advance in the, matter of money. Feir instance, where Tasmania and Australia are getting an advance of, say, from 7s. to 7s. 6d., in New Zealand we are getting 10s., because the brokers at Homo know they are covered under the guarantee, but in connection with their returns for the season it eloes not benefit them at all. I may say that before this guarantee came in we put up their credit here. 21. Mr. Corrigan.] How did it come about that the Government were asked to give this guarantee —in other words, why did the fruitgrowers ask the Government to give this guarantee ?— The guarantee, as I take it, is against actual losses on the: shipment—that is to say, if they made a loss the Government would make it up for them. For instance, if they only received ss. on the English market they woukl got up to Id. per pound for the fruit. 22. It is your idea then that the growers asked for this guarantee to ensure them against making losses up to id. per pound ? —Absolutely. 23. I have been given to understand that the reason for that is that certain growers who were shipping fruit could not got an advance unless they had some guarantee of this sort ? —lt is absolute;])' absurd. Brokers have all been prepared to put it up to as near the full amount as possible. One season, for instance, we advanced up to 13s. per case. At any time the guarantee is withdrawn, either this season or next season, the English brokers will be prepared to give reasonable aelvances — that is, what they think is sufficient to cover them —probably between 7s. or Bs. 24. Do you do any business in connection with the disposal of fruit locally ?—No. 25. You only deal with the export of fruit ? —That is so. 26. Mr. Field.] Do you think it woulel be wise to discontinue this guarantee ? —lt has to go ultimately, 1 take it. 27. As prices go up you think it will be unnecessary ?—Yes. 28. As the market is becoming established. The: 5-per-cent. charge referred to is that on the gross price ? —That is the English brokerage commission. 29. That is all the producers have: to pay ?- Of course, they have to pay their landing-charges in England. 30. I understand that: in the matter of commission or brokerage that is all they have to pay ? —That is so. 31. You heard the Minister's reason for issuing that Proclamation? —I have his letter giving particulars. 32. It was possible: that there: was a glut in the South American market ?—What we took exception to was that we' had elone the' work well, and there was a number of growers who were prepared to ship their fruit but they .were deprived of doing so.

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33. You think the Minister should, have no power to issue such a Proclamation ?—That is so. 34. If that were done do you not think there would be a danger of glutting the market in certain cases ?- I elo not think so. 35. You cannot get away from, the fact that both Australia and Tasmania may glut the market ? —As 1 told yeiu, sir, during that season we could have shipped, ten thousand cases from Australia ourselves as against New Zealand apples had we liked to take advantage of it. 36. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] Is it not a fact that the Australian growers are asking fe)r a guarantee similar to the: guarantee given to the New Zealanel growers ? lam not in a position to say. 37. lam in a position to tell you that it is so. With respect to the matter of the Government guarantee, is it not a fact that it enables the fruitgrowers to make arrangements a long time; ahead in so far as finance is concerned ? Do I understand that without the guarantee you people would be able to treat the: fruitgrowers as we:ll as they have been treated as a consequence of the Government guarantee ? No, sir. What we are: concerned with is advances against shipments, that is all. 38. As to whether or not my action was right or wrong in connection with the embargo coming into operation, your objection is that you were deprived for the time: being of operating? —As a taxpayer we have: a right to protest. We might, suggest this : supposing our livelihood was dependent on this business, at one stroke of the Minister's pen we were cut eiff. That is the attitude I personally take up. 39. The Government is acting for the majority of the; people, anel it does not consider the individual, because its duty is to consider the; community as a whole ? Quite so. 40. Under the meat control and the dairy control it was the vested interests that were: opposed to the producers, After all, under"this Bill the producers will have to look after their own interests the Government will have: practical men as its representatives, but it is left to the growers themselves as to the marketing of their produce, anel it will not be the concern of the Government ?---I think you are, absolutely right in the interests of the growers, and if I may come back to the subject again I think I might suggest probably Dr. Reakcs will bear my statement out in this respect —if it is going to be a good sale we will stanel aside; ; we will not approach anybody with a view to negotiating a sale. lam satisfied in the: particular case in question it was not a good sale. 41. You think if you had the* handling of the South American sales you would have done better ? —Yes, 1 think wo would have done very much better. 42. You might have eione, but I woulel not say you would ?—lt did not turn out just as you expected it would. All I can say is that our shipments were always handled in a businesslike manner anel returns made: promptly to the growers. As to whether the particular shipment in question was a payable one, only the Department will be able to give'information on that point. 43. Mr. Corrigan.] Have you anything to do with selling c.i.f. between New Zealanel and Great Britain. ?—No. 44. I understand the apples that were shipped to South America were sold under c.i.f. conditions ? — So I am informed, and they were also subject to arrival in gooel condition. 45. Quite so. Have yeiu had any experience with c.i.f. sale's in the: Old Country ? —No. 46. That is, from. New Zealand ? No. I may say that all our business has been done purely as brokers. The firms I represent are: not merchants —their business is brokerage. 4-7. The reason I asked that is this : c.i.f. selling to America is very unsatisfactory —if the, markets are good there there: is no complaint, but if they are bad there is always complaint; and they do not give a. guarantee they can put up the: money and sell it f.o.b, ?—I think you have hit the nail on the head in that respect.

Friday, sth September, 1924. H. S. Izard examined. (Nei. 9.) 1. The Acting-Chairman.] Whom do you represent ? —I am president of the Auckland Fruitgrowers' Council, and I am also the Auckland member on the directorate of the New 'Zealand Fruitgrowers' Federation. I practically represent two thousand growers in the Auckland Province, which province: contains, I suppose, the largest number of fruitgrowers of any part of New Zealanel. The matter of this Control Board, both for export control and local control, has been discussed by the various associations in the Auckland District, also by the Council of Fruitgrowers, and in no instance: has there been any adverse vote against either of the-portions of the Bill. As regards the export-control portion eif it, it may be said that wo Auckland people are not largo exporters, anel therefore: we: should not have to say very .much on the question of whether we should have export control or not. Tn the past Auckland has exported in each year a fair quantity of fruit — 2. Mr. Forbes.] What is a "fair quantity" ? -Last year I must admit that we exported only something under one thousand cases. That is to be accounted, for for three reasons : one is that we have at our door in Auckland City the best market for fruit of any part of New Zealand ; secondly, we had only a medium crop of apples ; and, thirdly, we lost last year a large line of export which we had had hitherto —that is to say, the export to Honolulu. Certain heavy restrictions regarding diseases prohibit us from exporting from Auckland to Honolulu any fruit until we can control one of the pests which the fruit industry has, and that is the mealy bug. That export used to run from anything between ten thousand and fifteen thousand cases. We' Auckland people lost that last year. I said just now that the growers in my district are in favour of e:xport control. They are fully in favour of it, but they want, as other districts want, that there should be, no pooling of fruit between any two or more provinces. They elo not object to the: pooling of fruit in any one province. One

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of the main reasons, in my opinion, for this Export Control Bill is that the exporting of our fruit is only in its infancy —perhaps I shoulel say, in its childhood- and if we are going to have in the future any proper control of the industry, now is the time to elo it. Year by year the export is growing, and growing very quickly, and in the future it may be harder to get complete control of it than it is now. There is no doubt about the generous treatment which the fruitgrowers have had in the past as regards the guarantee, anel in order to protect this guarantee, to protect it absolutely, it is necessary that we: shoulel have: legal powers behind, us em the exporting. Touching the question which has been raised for the qualification e>f a voter —that is to say, an export during the past three years of twentyfive cases —we think that is a proper qualification. If it were: raised, as suggested by a former witness, to one hundred eases, it weiuld disenfranchise most of us in the Auckland District. It is said that the qualification is too little as compareel with exporters of three thousand, four thousanel, eir five thousand cases ; but I think that, taking as an analogy the Dairy Control Bill, you will finel that in that Bill anybody who was a supplier like myself—as a side line 1 supplied the cream of four cows to the factory—has an equal vote with the: man who supplies the cream of three hundred or four hundred cows. It is also objected to that the representation on the Control Board—that is to say, two members from Nelson is not enough. That was objected to by a witness from Nelson yesterday. Dealing with, the question of representation on the: Control Board, by the: proposed Bill Nelson has two representatives and three other districts have one each. We are: quite in favour of that, as we recognize that Nelson is entitled to more representation than either Auckland or any other district, owing to the amount exported. So I think it woulel be quite impossible, as suggested by a witness yesterday, that the representation shoulel be on a quota of the number of cases exported, because that would practically moan that Nelson would, have the whole Board. It may 'bo that in years to come other districts may bring their export quantities up into line: with that of Nelson. In that case, unless there was an amendment of the Bill hereafter, there woulel be other districts outside: Nelson which would not be properly represented. It has also been urged by Otago that they want local option on this Control Board. I would point out that unless this Control Board is universal from one end of the Dominion to the other it is no control at all. As regards local control, I said before that we are in favour of it in sei far as the Bill goes. We are glad to see that some effort is being made to stabilize the industry, especially as regards local consumption. In the past we poor unfortunate fruitgrowers have lost many hundreds, even thousands, of pounds by trying to establish voluntary organizations, which, mainly owing to the disloyalty of members of those organizations, have fallen to the ground. Should this provision of local control be: carried in any one district, lam perfectly sure that, with a good Board, it will make for a great improvement of the industry in general. 3. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] You are quite satisfied with the Bill as drafted ?—Yes. 4. From your evidence you are satisfied that you represent about two thousand fruitgrowers in the Auckland Province who are in harmony with your views ? —Yes. 5. You have found no objection in the Auckland Province to the Bill ? —None whatever. 6. Does that extend right away north and include Dargaville and other places in that vicinity ? — As far as I know. They have had a synopsis of the Bill sent to them. Then, they are represented on the Auckland Council of Fruitgrowers, and, as their representative, I have had no complaints at all. 7. Your instructions are to support what the Government are doing ? —Yes. 8. Mr. Forbes.] You say that previous organizations havo proved failures owing to their being voluntary : is that the main reason for their failure ? —The main reason, but not the sole reason. 9. You heard in evidence, so far as Nelson was concerned, that the charges which fruitgrowers had to pay were very much greater under their voluntary organization than if they handled the fruit themselves : was that so in your organization ?- Net, Ido not think so. We had simply co-operative societies. We have never tried voluntary conTrol like Nelson tried last year. lam not competent to give any evidence on the Nelson control, because it has not affected us in the Aucklanel District. 10. You are a member of the Fruitgrowers' Federation : what does the Fruitgrowers' Federation do ?—I am a director of the Fruitgrowers' Federation. Now, that federation is the head body of all the fruitgrowers of New Zealand, who care to link up. Ido not say we represent everybody : that is impossible. 11. How do you link up ? —ln the first instance there are local associations. Those local associations are bona fide fruitgrowers, and they are affiliated with the Federation of Fruitgrowers eif Mew Zealanel. In those local associations there must be at least 75 per cent, of bona fide fruitgrowers, holding not less than 60 per cent, of the capital. Now, the Federation of Fruitgrowers is the: federation of all those local associations. They number between fifty and sixty. I e;ould not tell you how many thousand fruitgrowers they represent, but they represent a very large number of fruitgrowers throughout New Zealanel. The; small fruitgrower—or, rather, the " backyard orchardist," the man who has a mixed orchard of an acre or an acre anel a half though we get very few of those in our organizations —still, if they wish to join they-are eligible anel can do so. Now, the federation consists of a directorate, and through them we attempt to manage the whole of the fruitgrowing industry. Eve;ry year we have a conference of fruitgrowers, selected by a certain quota from each district, who attend a provincial conference, and that provincial conference selects a lesser quota to attend a Dominion conference, which is held annually. The federation is a live and hard-working' body. It has done a lot of good for the fruitgrowing industry in New Zealand. We indent fruitgrowers' supplies, manures, fruit-cases, and everything like that; and lam perfectly sure that every fruitgrower will tell you that had it not been for the activities of the federation we would have: been much worse off than we are now. 12. Was the federation unanimous in supporting this Bill ? —Yes, except Mr, Turner, from Otago, who is one of the directors,

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13. He is one of the: directors ? —Yes. 14. Anel you have a director in Canterbury ?—Yes ; there is a director in Canterbury. There are two directors in Nelson, one in Auckland, one in Wellington, and one in Hawke's Bay. 15. What revenue have you got ? —The orchard-tax, anel a percentage on very small net sales of orchard supplies, and things like that. 16. What does the orchard-tax amount to ?—About £1,300 or £1,500 ; that is about all. Mr. Napier, the secretary of the federation, will give you details. 17. What acreage have: you in orchard in Auckland? Yeiu mentioned two thousand growers: what acreage would that be ?■—l coulel not tell you exactly. 18. The Acting-Chairman.] You have viticulturists, too: are they included in that number?— No, they are not registered. 19. Do they come under the heading of orchards ?-- Not for the' purposes of registration. 20. Mr. Lam j stone,.] You are: a • fruitgrower : what methods have: you for marketing fruit in Auckland is it em the basis eif co-operative auctioneering ? It was, but unfortunately that faileel ; wo coulel neit keep it going, because the: moment we: started co-operative methods eif selling there we had very live auctioneers trying all the time to crmtrol our jirie:e's, and we had lo wind up the affair. Disloyalty had a lot to do with it. 21. Is there: much waste going on under this auction selling? Dei the' growers lose niue'h by the present method of auctioneering fruit in Auckland ? Neil while there is gooel fruit; but there is such a hit eif rubbish, and that depreciates the: price of the good fruit. 22. Mr. Corrigan.] The Bill as drafted does not give the greiwers the' right to take a, vote whether the)' will bring it into force or not; woulel you have any objection to a. clause being added in that way? The; trouble is how you woulel define the voters. Jl' a vote we're' given to every registered orchardisl throughout New Zealanel there woulel be; several thousands who might vote, but a theiusand eir two orchardists, although registered, woulel not bother about it one way or the other. They are not exporters, and are never likely to be exporters. 23. We; had the same difficulty in dairy control. 1 was just wondering whether you woulel have any objection. I can. soo what is in your mind now. You said something about the federation; vein are a member eif it, I understand : are they all in favour of the Bill ? What is the consensus eif opinion in the federation ? Directors of the: federation, you mean '. 21. Yes ? —-As I have already saiel, Mr. Turner, of Dunedin, who is a director, is opposing the Bill, and is the only one in the federation opposing it, so far as I know. 25. The Bill will reduce the: orchard-tax, 1 understand. Will" the: levy of 3d. under the; Bill be sufficient to include the loss to the; federation and. leave: enough to pay the Control Board ? —-I think so, sir. Ido not think it will affect the federation. It is in such a strong position that it will not affect their finances. 26. You were talking about the Honolulu market: what amount does the Honolulu market absorb ? —About ton thousand cases a year. It used to be overdone. 1 think it is a limited market. Too olo.se to the: American market. 27. I suppose you have no means of stating definitely.what it could absorb ? Nei. 28. Have you over exported any fruit ?- Have I personally ? Yes ; the last two years I have. 29. Judging by your experience as an exporter, is there anything in this Bill that might be considered, as detrimental to the exporter ? —None whatever, in my opinion. 30. Hon. Mr. Ngata.] You are opposed to Dominion pooling, Mr. Izard ?—••Yes. 31. How are you going to have Dominion control without pooling ? -I think it woulel bo quite: possible for the Control Board to keep the fruit of each district separate. 32. Would the Local Board do that ? —lt could not control export. 33. You are opposed to Dominion pooling ? —I am opposed to Dominion pooling for export. 34. Why should the Dominion Control Board govern the local fruit if you are; opposed to their pooling for the Dominion ?—Under local control each province would deal with its own fruit. 35. With regard to these two thousand growers : what proportion of them would be growers of apples and pears ?—I could not possibly say -for this reason :we grow a lot of stone-fruit, and are .going in very largely for citrus-fruit —lemons, for instance —anel I Could not say what the proportion would be at all. 36. What has been the highest export from the Auckland Province ?—I cannot speak from memory —something under twenty thousand. 37. What proportion of the Dominion export would that be ? —For the year before last it woulel not be more than a tenth. 38. This Bill contemplates the setting-up of Local Control Boards. Why should not the Local Control Boards handle fruit for export ? —The Control Boards have got to be set up in the first instance, and I elo not think for one moment that you are: going to get local control carried right through New Zealand —it weiuld take years. 39. But you arc in favour of local control ?—As I have saiel before, yeiu have got to carry local control in each district first, and it is only right I think, sir, that each province and each district shoulel have' the right of saying whether they would vote local control or not. 40. Mr. Hawken.] Have you been long in the fruit business ? —For about fourteen years. 41. In what district ?—Auckland ; at Henderson, ten or eleven miles out of Auckland. 42. Judging by your experience, is it necessary that either methods should be adopted ? Are the fruitgrowers in such a bad way as is generally made; out, ? I think it is necessary : the time has come : the fruitgrowing industry is in a parlous condition. Senile' eif us who had an interest in and worked for the good of the fruitgrowing industry have leieike'd into the matter very carefully, anel we have arrived at the conclusion that there should be a compulsory clause—we want legal standing m the matter.

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43. You think, that if things go on as they are: at present many of the fruitgrowers will go out of business ? —There will be a big drop later on. There are vast areas of apples planted throughout New Zealand. These are gradually coming into bearing year after year, and unless there is a large amount of export and control given to local consumption there is going to be chaos in the fruit industry. 44. You think it refers more to apples than to other fruit ? —lt refers to apples arid pears. It would be impossible to control stone-fruit at the present juncture. 45. The Acting-Chairman.] You referred to meetings held that appeared to be: in favour of the Control, Bill ? —I attended these meetings of various local associations, and we hael two meetings of the Auckland Council of Fruitgrowers, which was composed of delegates and representatives from each association in the district —some fifteen or sixteen delegates; The: matter has been fully discussed, and in no case has there boon even an attempt at an adverse attitude. 46. Were the meetings called for the purpose of considering this Bill ? —They were called for the specific purpose of considering the Bill. 47. Were they called by advertisement ?■—-Most of them were called by notices sent out by post to each member. There was a meeting calle:d last Saturday night for the special purpose of considering the Bill. H. E. NaPIER examined. (No. 10.) 1. The, Acting-Chairman.] What is your full name, Mr. Napier ?—Henry Eric Napier. 2. What is your official position ?—Secretary eff the New Zealand Fruitgrowers' Federation. 3. Do you wish to make a statemont ? —ln opening my remarks I think it would be a benefit if 1 referred to the Federation —its origin, work, and objects. Away back about 1909 and 1910 a number eif growers in New Zealand recognized, the necessity for some organization of the industry eif a national description, The federation was formed, by a small group eif members from various associations. They had no finances, and the delegates paid their own expenses when any meetings were held. It was not until 1917, when the orchard-tax came info existence, that the federation really became an active body. At a number of conferences held prior to 1917 the orcharel-tax had been discusseel, anel the Government was asked to bring in the Orcharel-tax Act, which provided for a voluntary tax by the fruitgrowers eif Is. an aero, to be paid through the: Government to the federation for the furtherance of the fruitgrowing iudustry. The fesderation is a federation of associations. There are associations from Auckland down to Otago. They number fifty-six. They have a membership, I think, eif something like 2,900. They are associations of bona'fide fruitgrowers. They elo all work in connection with their districts for the furtherance of the industry. In the last two or three years provincial councils have been formed in the Auckland, Nelson, and, Otago elistricts. These councils are really a small federation of the associations for that province ; they co-ordinate the work of the province. Once a year provincial conferences are held in all the principal fruitgrowing districts of New Zealand. At those provincial conferences the associations are represented by erne delegate for every twenty-five members or fraction thereof. The provincial conference: elects delegates to the Dominion Conference in the ratio of one delegate for every hundred members of the associations in the provinces. An order paper, embodying remits from the: associations, is, sent to the provincial conference for consideration. At the provincial conferences the delegates to the Dominion Conference are instructed regarding the attitude they are to take towards the various resolutions put forward. At the recent Dominion Conference held in Wellington on the 11th June the main subject of discussion was the present Bill. At that time only a synopsis of the Bill was available. This hael been issued by the Department in order that fruitgrowers might consider the various suggestions in the Bill. At this conference a resolution was carried " That this conference of fruitgrowers urges upon Parliament the necessity for an. Export Fruit Control Act on the lines se:t out in tho synopsis submitted by the Department, but with provisions for fixing a maximum levy and lor making it impossible to market the fruit from any district on the pooling system, unless at the: expressed, desire of that province as indicated by a poll of the exporters." I wish to make it quite clear that when this resolution was put before tho conference the Otago delegates refrained from voting. Since that date the Otago associations have held meetings to discuss this question. 1 have here two letters received from two of tho associations in Otago giving their opinion of tho proposed Bill. If it is considereel desirable I will read these letters to the committee. From the Co-operative Fruitgrowers of Otago (Limited) dated 15th August, 1924 : — " 1 beg to advise that at a meeting of the committee of management of our society held on 15th August, 1924, the following resolution was adopted : ' That this society supports the passing of the Fruit Control Bill now being considered in the House of Representatives, Wellington, with the following reservations : (1) That the maximum levy shall nc)t exceed 3d. per case ; (2) that there be; no Dominion poeiling.' " From the Central Otago Fruitgrowers' Association, elated 15th August, 1924 : — " Re Control Bill now before the House : During Mr. Allen's visit to Otago and subsequent to his address,.my association, in common with Teviot, Taiori, Upper Clutha, Ripponvale, and Ettrick, carried a resolution to support the Bill with the proviso that Dominion-wide pooling was not included, and the maximum levy fixed at 3d. per case. Since then there lias been considerable objection to the Bill in Dunedin', and a special meeting of the Otago council was held last week to formulate Otago's official attitude to the Bill. Our director on the council, acting upon instructions from this association, strongly supported the Bill with the proviso as already mentioned. A similar attitude was taken up by directors from Ripponvale and Upper Clutha, while the other five directors supported local control and opposed the Bill. Not having seen the Bill, we are telying on tho explanation of Mr. Allen, but I may say the principal objection comes from the council, whose members consider that Dominion control

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would jeopardize: the successful working of the: council ; alsei that tho le:vy of 3d. per case would bo inadequate, to maintain the: two organizations, and insists that provision be: embodied in the Bill to prevent pooling. We would like a little more information on the matter if you would oblige us. What attitude: do the other councils take up in this matter ? Ifiyou can answer this question, and. reply to the other points contained herein, you will enlighten us considerably. —Cecil Molntosh, Secretary." Another from the RangioraLDistrict Fruitgrowers' Association (limited), dated 25th August:— " This association would like you to know that we strongly favour the Bill, but, woulel like a clause preventing pooling between provinces. We do not want local control ourselves, as we, are differently situated in many ways, but we approve eif the pro vision in the Bill for local control for those who want it. We do not want to be ' dog in the manger ' over the matter. We realize what benefits Nelson will benefit us, as we still have the advantage of froightjovor Nelson, and alsei the aelvantage of better condition of fruit by tho time it reaches the market. As for the export, well, there is no eiuestion about it. If Nelson can export with more confidence under better control, the better for the local market. Mr. J. W. Macleod, of Loburn, is president of the association, and every grower in Loburn is a member also. Mr. Maclood is prepared to give evidence before: the Committee of the House who will deal with this Bill. We trust it will go through, as we are convinced it is the right thing. The, principal opposition from Christchurch growers seems to come from a section who arc afraid they will not be able to sell their second- and third-grade fruit without branding it as such. 1 hope they will be prevented from selling such stuff under the brand of ' First Class,' thereby making all buyers wary of paying a proper price for good fruit.—E. K. Banfikld, Secretary." I would like now to eloal with the question of the South American market. Prior to the: war quite an extensive trade was carried on between New Zealand and the Argentine. Now Zealand at that time practically had tho market to itself. In 1914, I. think it was, something like sixty-six thousand cases were e:xported to tho Argentine. In 1922 a small shipment was sent forward from the Nelson District to again try to open up this market, which had been cut off from New Zealand owing to the: difficulty of se:curing freight during the war. The small consignment which wont forwarel through tho agency of Messrs. Redpath brought good prices, with the exception of one variety which did not carry too well. In 1922, and prior to 1922, tho federation ondeavouroel to open up this market on an f.o.b. basis. We had a number of consignments, but it took a long time to get elown to any finality until we received an order for seven thousanel cases at a good f.o.b. price, with prospects of a considerable increase if things wont all right. Shortly after that we received information from South America that there were rumours of largo consignments going to South America during the 1923 season. We: investigated from where: these rumours came, and found out that although it was said in South America that twenty thousand oases would go on consignment, it elid not look as though there were more than two thousanel cases available: from the sources from which the information came. I found this fact had got into the minds of the: buyers in South America, and they wore not prepared to increase: their purchases. This, I think, was only a fair attituelo to take. The growers in Nelson, not being satisfieel with the quantity ordered f.0.b., decided to send a representative of their own to the South American market. Mr. W. A. Tate was approached, and he finally went over to South America with a consignment of approximately seven thousand cases. Information of the nature of his visit to South America reached that quarter, and the buyer of the seven thousand eases, evidently being frightened of the: effect of the fruit on the market, failed to put up his credit. He had promised a letter of credit for the shipment, but he did not keep his arrangement, and eonsequently we, had to divert the fruit. Mr. Tate handled approximately thirty thousand cases. I exceedingly regret to say that the venture was not successful, as some of the shipment diel not turn out in very good order. Mr. Tate mot with very great competition from other fruit that went from Now Zealand. According to his own statement, if he had had control of the whole eif the fruit he, e;ould have fixed the price with no danger eif anybody undercutting him. Ho had to put a large proportion of the fruit into cool storage, which is something like Id. per case per day. You can readily understand that that had a very bad effect on the net results to the growers, and. tho Government had to meet consieiorable claims under this heading. On his return to New Zealand he met the Federation Board and the whole position of the South American trade was considered. A letter was received from the Government suggesting that an advisory committee be formed for the purpose of acting in an advisory capacity to the Government in regarei to the Government guarantee. It was decided by tho Export Committee to appoint such a committee, and accordingly Colonel Gray, of Nelson (chairman), Mr. Brash., of Wellington, Mr. Turner, of Dunedin, and Mr. Robertson, of Hawke's Bay, were selected. The advisory committee considered the offers which were: handed over by the federation, which they narrowed down to two —that of Mr. G. A. Brougham, for a consignment business, and Hore and Co., c.i.f. sale. They all wanted the seile right to handle New Zealand apples, but Hore anil Co. were the only people who would take a reasonable quantity. Some of the offers only covered twenty thousand cases for the season ; but with the: exception of Messrs. I hire and Co. none of them wont up to the amount the market should, absorb. The, conditions with Hore, anel Co. were: subejet to condition and sole receiver from New Zealanel for Argentine, Uruguay, anel Brazil. The advisory committee: recommended to the Government acceptance of offer uneler protection eif Order in Council, tei apply to the 1921 season only. The: limit of the South. American market was considered, to be fifty thousand case:s only. Without control and assistance of tho Government how could New Zealand shippers be prevented from sending over this quantity, especially if consignment business existed ? Shipments were subject to the arrival of the fruit in good condition in South America. It was recognized that the "arrival in goeiel condition " clause was reasonable seeing that there was some doubt as to whether New Zealanel could land, her fruit in gooel order. If is the opinion of the loaders in the industry that the growers of a perishable product should be willing to guarantee the fruit to arrive in a marketable condition. Tho committee, after thoroughly considering flu: whole position, decided to recommend to the Government that Messrs. Hore and Go's, offer be accepted, and that some restriction should be placed on shipments going forward to America for the one season. An Order in Council

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was issued making it necessary that the Minister of Agriculture should be consulted and his consenl obtained before shipments wont forward to America. On reeeipl of approval the deal was finally closed. It was considered necessary that New Zealand should bo represented, owing to the condition clause, and. so it was decided that some one should, be sent with the consignment who was possessed with a sound knowledge of fruit and the carriage of fruit. Consequently the advisory committee requested the Government to allow one of their Orchard Inspectors to go to South America. It was at first suggested, that Mr. Campbell should, go, but he was unable to do so, and Mr. Rice went. He, has now returned to New Zealand, and, although his report is not yet available for publication, i think it, is but right that 1 should give a few quotations from it. He tolls us plainly that it would be suicidal to carry on the shipping of New Zealand fruit under ordinary cargo conditions to South America. In the past we have Hot asked for refrigerating conditions, but Mr. Rice says such conditions are essential, and that f.o.b. sales are not possible until it can be proved to South American buyers that wo can land the fruit in. good condition. His report is conclusive in that wo, have got to ship under refrigerated conditions. Regarding the South American market, we have known from various sources that the capacity of that market now, and until the New Zealand trade becomes established again, is approximately fifty thousand cases. How is any restriction going to bo placed on this market withoul control ? I venture to say that last season, if the Government had not assisted the industry, more than fifty thousand cases would have boon sent to South America, and consequently the' market would have boon ruined by the shippers themselves—a great future industry would have been destroyed, and great losses sustained by growers. Clearly, wo, must have some form of control. The absence of control would have meant open consignments, which certainly would have acted against the shippers themselves. Our fruit must be landed in good order before f.o.b. sales are possible, otherwise South American buyers will not touch, it. There is strong competition there, and they want the. best. I should state that Chile before the war was not, a great apple-producing country, but at the present time they are delivering large shipments and selling under better conditions than New Zealand. We arc already meeting with strong competition from North America, and. the Americans have perfect shipping conditions with up-to-date rofrigoratingchambers. They can land their fruit by a special line of boats on the Buenos Aires wharves, and put it right into the cool stores without any loss of time. Now Zealand fruit has to be discharged at Montevideo owing to the fact that New Zealand vessels carrying fruit are of too deep a draught to go up to the wharves, and our fruit has to be, lightered 120 miles. One of the shipments that went to Buenos Aires last season was nine days from the time of being discharged at Montevideo until it was placed in the refri go rating-chambers at Buenos Aires, which was caused owing to the number of saints' days which usually occur in these Latin countries. I would like to say a word on the, work of the federation in connection with export. At the present time we are handling the whole of the refrigerated space from New Zealand. On behalf of the, various districts we book the necessary space with the oversea shipping companies. This applies to Otago. With the exception of one shipment last season the Otago fruit comes up to Wellington, and wo complete the chamber here. For the other provinces we have, arranged for cool storage in Wellington. We have handled something like 205,000 cases during the, past season ;we have arranged for the insurance on all shipments. Under arrangements with the bank we finance these shipments. This last season we have made an advance of 10s. per case, which would not be possible in the absence of the Government guarantee. I regretted to note yesterday that one of the brokers' agents said that he, did not consider the Government guarantee w'as of much assistance. I will explain what is done with the Government guarantee. Early in thai season, about September, the associations approach Iho banks in their respective localities for advances to enable them. to buy cases, packing-materials, and to provide wages for their packing-shed employees until the first advances are available. Without this I think it can be. safely said that the total shipments from New Zealand during the past season would have been considerably loss than what they were. Prior to the Government guarantee the associations found great difficulty in arranging for any finance, but now that difficulty has been removed and. the banks do what is needful, having the guarantee behind them. We ship the fruit on behalf of the growers, and we attend to all matters in connection with shipments.We pay all charges, and we attend to the distribution of surpluses when thoy come, to hand. Yesterday it was stated that the brokers would finance these shipments. They have done so in the past. Their finance is lower than what can be arranged under the Government guarantee. We do not want to get into the position that a large number of shippers are in in Australia and Tasmania at the present time —that is, being in debt to the agents. There are a large number of shippers in in Australia and Tasmania who cannot say what they will do with their fruit, their position being such that they have got to ship it to the agents. Now, that is not a good position to bo, in. It is true in the past two years that we ha vo made claims upon the Government guarantee, and we have received some criticism over it —more than from anything else wo have tackled. Our criticism is mainly from the growers for whom we are acting. They cannot sec when the shipments are finished that we cannot put in a statement to the Government and say, "We want the money, and let the Government pay out." It is essentia! that the whole of the growers' fruit be handled through one agency. It was also stated yesterday by an agent for the brokers that thoy received a rebate commission for the work', they did in New Zealand. I ask, What work do the agents do ? I can say with confidence that the federation does the work, and the agent collects the commission. We charge the agent Jd. a ease for the work that we do. Captain Hull receives as a rebate commission from London 2 per cent, on the gross returns, and Id. per case. Now, all that is for doing nothing. There are, however, a few let tors to write, or they may put an advertisement into the, papers that they want fruit for sale. Why should not the agent be cul out, and ihi' Id. per case and the 2 per cent, which is rebated to New Zealand saved ? The Control Board could do that work. The federation do a large portion of it now. Fortunately, some measure of control has been possible under the Government guarantee, and I venture to state that without this control the New Zealand

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fruit industry would, not be where it is to-day. The, great step was made two years ago in that the whole of the Now Zealand fruit was shipped, from New Zealand under a universal label, and it was a, great step forward that none of the other primary industries have been able to make. Our fruit is marketed as New Zealand apples. Apart from England, it is altogether essentia] that a label be provided for the South American market, because the people there are used to the labelling of the cases from. America, and it is stated by some of the brokers that the label will improve the price of the fruit up to Is. a case, and at the same time standardize our name. In South America, the more gaudy the label the. better they like it. As to the wiring of the cases, one speaker has stated that it was a useless expenditure, or words to thai, effect. The wiring of cases, in my opinion, is absolutely essential. Before wiring became compulsory it was stated and known that the cases split, with the result that the apples were found lying about, the, wharves. Recently wo, have received a letter from London pointing out the fact that in the overseas trade the Australian shippers have lost much money through broken cases, and pointing out the fact that New Zealand cases were wired. I might say here that the federation keeps in close, touch with the Agriculture Department in setting the standard. Last season our total shipments to England from Now Zealand were 202,000 cases. It was stated by an Otago speaker that New Zealand, shipments to the English market wore merely as a drop in the bucket ; but the speaker might have said that the Otago shipments were as a drop in the bucket compared with the whole, of New Zealand. In comparing the prices received for New Zealand fruit with those of Tasmania and Australia, it was remarked yesterday that grading was not required, in which connection it should bo pointed out thai we hold the premier position over Tasmania to the tune of 2s. to 3s. per case. Wo ship under two grades, " Fancy " anil " Good." I think it was stated yesterday that in some instances the, "Good " grade brought better prices than the "Fancy" grade. 1 might say at once that the statement is by no means correct, because our " Fancy " grade is 2s. per case better than " Good." One of the brokers writing to the federation during the past season stated that although the Now Zealand fruit was riot arriving in anything like the condition of that of Western Australia, still the writer said that the New Zealand fruit invariably brought the. highest price. The writer further added that the, buyers knew wo were grading under our regulations. Approximately 100,000 cases of Tasmania?! apples were shipped during last season as " blemished," the price, realized at Liverpool being from ss. to 7s. per case. It was decided upon by the Advisory Council in Tasmania to allow " black-spot," and the decision was a great mistake on the part of the Tasmanian authorities. The Americans put into England large quantities of low-grade fruit to compete. I have catalogues in the office showing that the fruit did not realize more than from ss. to 7s. per case,; it costs that from the tree to the market, but the cost of production is very much higher. The Tasmanian shippers were faced with very heavy losses. I road in the Tasmanian papers recently a statement to the effect that if the Tasmanian growers came out with, the actual cost of marketing they would be lucky. Now, New Zealand has averaged good prices in the English market during the past season. I must say, however, that the condition on arrival has not been of the best ;we have a large number of improvements to make, it was stated yesterday by a speaker that the, carriage was satisfactory, which is a statement that I do not agree with, because I know that the carriage is not satisfactory. We have a number of years of research before* us to discover the cause or causes of the present trouble, in which connection I want to state that every penny per case, over the cost of landing is good money in the pocket of the grower. I want to impress upon the Committee that there is no truth in the statement that grading is not essential. I want to mention one difficulty I have experienced as manager of the federation, and that is the lack of proper control over shipments. We had a request from a number of shippers to make the Glasgow trade available, as they wished to open up this market. One shipper had sent a consignment there and received a better average price than he would have got in London. We, made space available, for eleven thousand cases, but it subsequently looked as if the shippers would not fill that space, and so we had it reduced to seven thousand. Apples must be shipped in a separate chamber. The " Tasmania " came in and. we, had three thousand, cases for that seven thousand chamber. What were we. to do if we did not fill the space ? We. would possibly be faced with dead freight :if we had. only three thousand, we would be faced with four thousand dead freight. On behalf of the shippers I took a risk and diverted some, fruit. I got only a small quantity from each grower. After we did, this we started to get complaints. Naturally, the growers objected to us taking this action. The fruit arrived, in due course, and lam very pleased to say that it averaged 2s. 6d. a case more than fruit sent to the London market at the same time. It costs loss to send to Glasgow than to London. As to the opening-up of new markets, How can that be done unless the growers are prepared to boar the proportionate cost ? It has boon suggested that we should endeavour to open up such-and-such a market, and we have asked the growers to supply the fruit, but there are no growers who will put up the fruit unless there is a fair proportion over all. It is clear to me that all shippers should bear a fair proportion of the cost, otherwise il is impossible to open up new markets. We wanted to open up the Hull market, and arranged for a Hull chamber. When the fruit came to hand we did not have sufficient to fill the chamber :we had to put the Hull fruit in the. London chamber. The London chamber was opened up, and it was seven days before the fruit got round to Hull, with the result that it had deteriorated. We have approximately 350 shippers consigning their fruit through us to their own markets. Some range from fifty to one hundred cases for the season, divided into three or four shipments. There has been an instance of two cases shipped under one mark, which is an example of handling shipments for small growers -from, say, ten to twenty-five cases. In connection with these small shipments there is the question of accounting. There, is a difficulty of growers combining in community packing-sheds owing to the isolation of a number of the, small growers- indeed, they cannot combine except at much cost to themselves. They could combine under a Control Board even if their shipments were not large, as a minimum number of cases could be arranged for. There is also another thing that strikes me in going through this season's account sales : 1 think if would be a very beneficial thing if some control was exercised

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over the quantities going to the separate.brokers in the London market. During the season large shipments go forward, from. Australia ; in any one week a broker might receive a very largo quantity of fruit from his Australian clients. A New Zealanel. boat may arrive also with a large shipment for the same: broker. It therefore becomes a, question of distribution in London. Any firm handling perishable produce has its limitations for its clientele, and unless we: take care that no firm receives more than it can handle, there is bound to be a, kiss, new customers having to be found, and, prices sacrificed. From the account sales 1 have seen this year I feel certain that if our fruit had been distributed over a larger number of brokers a better result would have been obtained. This points to the necessity for a distributor in London ; but I do not say that the selling of the fruit should be taken out of the hands of the brokers, although that might be considered, desirable later on. We might distribute that fruit according to the demand at the time of the arrival of the boat, which would mean a growing extension of our distribution. As to the size of the fruit required in the: London market, for two seasons we: have received letters from brokers stating that they wanted, small apples. The Department finally allowed smaller apples to go forward, but immediately the brokers received the fruit they told us that it was too small. The favoured sizes on the English market are 2h and 2f —although, some of the larger sizes in some varieties are acceptable. From the experience I have gained as manager and later as secretary eif the federation, and also as a packer in a community packing-shed in the Nelson District, I am of opinion that control would be beneficial to the industry. There are a number of things which are harel to recall, and although we may take a note of them as they happen, other things happen later, and so some: things may be forgotten. I might say that the shipping season in Wellington is really a nightmare when one is dealing with perishable produce. You have: got to fill the ohamber or make arrangements for the; supply of shortage:. Speaking broadly, the shipping of our fruit could be done under better conditions. 4. Mr. Corrigan.] A gentleman who gave evidence here told us that he, belonged to an organization iu the South Island, and said he was responsible for '90 to 95 per cent, of the apples shipped from Otago :is that correct ? —That may probably be correct. We arrange the refrigerating-space for all shipments from New Zealand, anel wo allocate to the Otago District the proportion they want to send away. The Otago council attend to all the work that we would do for the northern districts. 5. Could you tell us what the instructions are regarding temperature ? —Our instructions are that fruit be carried in a temperature of between 32° and 34°, but on no account to bo reduced. 6. Did you get a return of the logs ? —The president of the federation went Home to represent New Zealand at- the Wembley Exhibition and. to arrange for the fruit exhibit at the: Wembley Exhibition ;he is also inspecting all the arrivals, and makes a week-end report. His information during the last season has been very valuable. I think it can be; said that he has made a great success of tho New Zealand exhibit. 7. Have you anybody at Home or here that checks the log to see if they carry over the temperature ?—The " Romuera " turned the cargo out in a rotten condition, and representations were made. We eibtained the log, from which we found that tho temperatures ranged from 40°- 66°, anel on no occasion did it go down lower than 40°. A claim was made for £5,000-odd, but we have not yet receiveel a settlement of it. It has been, referred backwards ami forwards, and Mr. Attwood. is taking it up. They have made an offer of £2,000, which we will not accept. 8. Can you give us the average price per case realized for apples at Home ? —lt is not worked out. I think, from the information I can gather, that the average price lor New Zealand fruit will be all round about lis. 6d. to 15s. per case. 9. About the Argentine market: what elo you reckon that market woulel absorb ? —The returns we have> received state fifty thousand cases as the maximum. 10. Could you tell us, roughly, the number of cases the different States take? —Buenos Aires takes thirty thousand cases, Montevideo takes ten thousand, Rio de Janiero takes ten thousand. Mr. Eice tells us that if the fruit could be landed there in good condition South America could absorb from sixty thousand to <;ighty thousanel. 11. Mr. Langstone.] Do you think 3d. a case would be sufficient for overhead charges ?—Yes. 12. Could there be any saving in other directions that would compensate for this 3d. ? —I think a lot of saving coulel be made. A large proportion of tho fruit goes from Nelson. Tho lighterage in the Nelson Bay could bo tackled. We might got tho shipping companies to go into Nelson and save the; cost at Nelson and Wellington in the way of wharfage, haulage, (fee, and other incidental expenses, and the cost of fruit-cooling in the Wellington fruit-store. 13. Do you think there would be any danger of the Board packing or requiring orchardists to supply fruit when the fruit was not ripe—would that be to the elisaelvantage of the grower ? —I do not think there is any question about that. The Control Board is doing the best possible. The object is to land New Zealand fruit in. tho best, condition possible. If they askeel the growers to supply fruit that was immature it would come back to them in the, account sales. There is no danger of that at all. We can go to a province that is forwarel and make up any quantities required. 14. Can it be done much better by centralized control than by the individuals who are working in it?—Yes, undoubtedly. Wo receive a large amount of information from the English market. Much of that information we cannot send out to shippers, because if we did we might be hael up for libel. Any grower can ship to anybody ho likes. Last season we shipped to thirteen brokers in London. There is no restriction placed on any shipper. 15. As to tho Argentine market —how long docs it take ? —lt takes twenty-one days, on an average. 16. Is the price per case better in the Argentine than in London if the fruit is in good order ? — The London markevt is variable. It depends on the quantities going forward from Australia, and the buying-powcr in Englanel and the Continental markets. This season the Continental markets have opened with beneficial effects. The South American market can be relied on to have an average price from year to year.

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17. What does it work out at, per case ? —l4s. 6d. c.i.f. Montevideo. 18. Is the freight less ? —Yes, ljd. per case less. 19. Mr. Forbes.] The figure you gave us was 10s. 6d. to land a case of fruit in England ?—Yes. 20. Would it cost 10s. (id. to land it in Buenos Aires ? —No, it would cost a little less to land it in Buenos Aires. In London, ,10s. 6d. is the cost of sedling the fruit on the London market. In South America the commission and landing-charges on a c.i.f. sale are paid by the broker. 21. What woulel be the eost of refrigerating? —It would cost 1-J-d. per case more to senel under refrigeration. 22. That would consielerably reduce the, return to the grower ? —Not very much. ljd. per case, not I }el. pe:r pound. 23. Where' does the 10s. 6d. come in? —3s. flat rate; that includes oases, packing-material, carriage to the wharf, wharfage at the Nelson end. Tho freight across to Wellington from Nelson is 7|d. per case;, 10|d. per case from Marlborough; and from any point in the North Island, 6jd. per ease;; precoeiling in Wellington, 3|d. per case; insurance, ljd. per case; our charge for shipping, Jel. per case; ocean freight, 4s. pe;r case; landing-charges in London, say, Is. per case; broker's commission, 5 per cent, on 13s. 6d., equals Bd. ; bank exchange, say, 1 |d. ; bank interest, 2d. on the advance ; anel there are various incidentals. 24. South America—what is it?—Ocean freight, 3s. 6d., plus 10 per cent.; consular fee, Jd. ; the sight-draft rate is 2fd. per cent. 25. You say they get 14s. 6d., leaving 10s. 6d. here in New Zealand ?—9s. f.o.b. Wellington — you deduct freight and insurance. 26. What control have; they in Tasmania ? —They have control under the Department of Agriculture. They are up against a large number of growers who are not progressive. They want some organization that coulel speak anel act on their behalf ; they cannot do very much. The brokers have suggested that they should have some form of control. They are folleiwing New Zealanel in trying to get an orchard-tax, but they are slow. 27. Other parts of Australia export a geioel eleal eff fruit —have they much control ? —Victoria has ineire control than any of them. Queensland has parliamentary control for all fruit; they have a Control Board. 28. On what system is that done ?—The:y have a Board appointed by the producers. They have absolute control. They are all represented on this central Boarel by one or two men. In the; various districts there are district organizations which represent the various fruits in that district. They have absolute control. 29. Have you seen their legislation at all ? —Yes, it is much more elrastic than ours —that is, the control. It has been in operation about a year eir eighteen months. 30. You do not know how it works ?—lt is a long Act, and I have: not studied it very closely. 31. As to local markets ? —We have not done very much in the past. We have co-operated with the Government in bringing in a system of standardization. On the Wellington market it has been noticeable this year that a large amount of rubbish has disappeared, eir practically so. It has been beneficial to the purchaser and the consumer, and to all concerneei. If a customer buys standardized fruit he can get it, at a more reasonable price anel be sure of the quality. If a fruiterer buys bad fruit he: has to charge the loss up against good fruit. 32. As to fruit in either parts of New Zealanel ? —The object of standardization is to classify the fruit. The Board should know what is in the books, and the books should show it. 33. The idea is not to prevent the sale of second-class fruit ? —ln the Nelson scheme the secondclass fruit is being marketed ; they have a third grade- three grades in all. 34. We> heard statements made by those who say they had built up the trade owing to the superior fruit they hael sent away. They thought that this scheme would prevent them getting the aelvantage of the goodwill they had built up ?—I do not think so. The object of the Control Board for the local market weiuld be to extend distribution as far as possible: of first-class fruit. 35. The:y would not be: at a disadvantage, in your opinion ? —The Board would decide that. We take it that they are men appointed by the purchasers the:mselves, and they have got to be reasonable seirt of men. They are men vitally interested! in the industry themselves. 36. We have been told by some of the witnesses that all previous schemes that have been worked out for the purpose of having some; measure of protection have always been disastrous so far as the; growers are concerned ? - There have been schemes for quite a number of years, but I think the foolishness of all those: schemes has been the want of loyalty on the part of the grower. The bond is nothing to him. It is happening every day. Some of'the fruitgrowe'rs will market a contract, and another grower outside the: association will cut in and take less. 37. You think it is necessary to have compulsion on these men ?—Yes, it is absolutely necessary. 38. You reokon this 3d.—how do you calculate: it: is it on the principle of the: Meat Board or the Butter Boarel ? —The Meat Board and the Butter Board are much bigge;r than the Fruit Board is, and they can spend more. We have: little value. It would be' necessary for the Board to meet and consider what was going to be done. But e;ontractors or members would have to be paid. The Board would attend to advertisements, &c. They might send a representative Home. The total cost of the Board would not exceeel £2,000 or £2,500 a ye:ar. It would produce something like: £3,000, eir a little: over. 39. The Boarel would want to do the same as other Boards —take a trip the the Old Country to look at the market ? —The men who are appointed would not be able to afford a trip to England. They have to look after their own orchards. Even if they come to Wellington to attenel a Board meeting they get no expenses. They have to pay men to do the work when they are away. 40. The: fruitgrowers would not spend too much travelling ? —The fruitgrowers will see: that what is being done is for their benefit.

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41. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] Have, all the fruitgrowers an opportunity of sharing in the order from Hore and Co., of Montevideo ? —Yes, they all have an opportunity of sharing. If there is an oversupply we said we would divert it and average the: price. 42. You are aware of the fact that the Fruit Control Bill in Queensland is a more democratic measure than this one ? —Yes, the growe:r there has no say. 43. You do not think, then, that the present Bill contains anything out of the way, seeing they have more absolute control in Queensland ? —You are right. 44. You say they would not want to go to England so much as before ?—I do not know how much other Boards have gone. The fruitgrowers woulel like a trip, but they cannot afford it. 45. Mr. Corrigan.] In giving your evidence you said there was an Argentine firm purchased from you f.o.b. he:re, and then they did not put up the credits ? —Yes, they purchased for 10s. 6d. It woulel average about lis. 46. Could you tell us what happened that they did not stick to their New Ze:al,and bargain ? — The: reason why they did not do it was because; the growers in New Zealand ceiulel semd representatives over there with consignments of fruit for sale. They did not want to go into competition with fruit on consignment which could be: sold internationally. 47. That lis. a case would be: —what ?- It would be approximately 15s. 6d. net in the Argentine ; then there would be lighterage of Is. Bd., equal tei 17s. 2s. The price that stuff would be sold at would be from 255. to 30s. a case. 48. They did not think they made a bad bargain ? —Certainly not. 49. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] Then, if you coulel make a sale of, say, seventy thousanel, eighty thousand, or one: hundred thousand cases of fruit on eejual terms f.o.b. South Africa, it woulel be to the advantage of New Zealand, if there was another market, to stop further supplies going out ?■— Yes, sir. 50. Stop everybody competing against the people that would give you f.o.b. here ? —Yess.

Wednesday, 10th September, 1924. Frank Sisson examined. (No. 11.) 1. The Chairman.] You are a fruitgrower ? —Yes, that is so. 2. At Papanui ? —Yes. 3. You wish to make a statement to this Committee in connection with this Bill now before it ? —Yes. I may say that as far as the Bill is concerned we in Christchurch arc against it as it stands, and there; is not a single part of it that we are in. favour of. At a special meeting of fruitgrowers in Christchurch —that is, the Fruitgrowers' Association —we discussed the whole Bill and went through every clause, and we passed a unanimous resolution entirely against the Bill. We cannot see that we should grow the fruit and do all the necessary work in connection with that industry for the; whole year and then at a later stage: have a neiticc put in the newspaper, if this Bill were carried, that the Control Board is to assume control over tho whole business, and wo woulel have nothing more to do with it. We are unable to see how we could possibly run our business under those conditions. Clause 9of the Bill (" particular powers of Board ") reads — " 9. (1.) Without limiting any authority specifically conferred on the Export Control Board, the Board shall have full authority to make such arrangements and give such directions as it thinks proper for the following matters : — " (a.) For the grading, packing, handling, and storage of fruit of which it has assumed control; " (b.) For tho shipment of such fruit on such terms and in such quantities as it thinks fit; " (c.) Feir the sale anel disposal of such fruit on such terms as it thinks advisable,; " (d.) For the insurance against loss of any such fruit either in New Zealand or in transit from New Zealand and until disposed of ; " (e.) For the display of any fruit at exhibitions or elsewhere ; and " (/.) Generally for all such matters as are necessary for or incidental to the due elischarge of its functions in handling, distributing, and disposing eif fruit. " (2.) For the purpose of securing any advances that may be made to the: Board eir to the owners of any fruit at the request of the Board, the Boarel shall, by virtue of this Act, anel without further authority, have full power on behalf of the owners of any fruit to give security over such fruit and to execute all mortgages and other instruments of assurance in the; same manner in all respects as if the Boarel we:ro the legal owners of such fruit." It seems to me, according to my interpretation of that clause, that the: Boarel would have: power to do what they like with the fruit, and could execute such mortgages as the Board think fit, and thus prevent the owners of the fruit from executing any mortgages they may desire in connection with that fruit. I may say that I have: to pay £2,000 per annum alone for cost of labour. At the present time I am able to go to the manager of the bank and tell him. that I have twenty-five thousand cases of fruit anel I want to obtain a loan from the bank, but if the Bill is passed into law I shall not be able to make my own arrangements, because the: Board will take full charge of the: whole business, and they will be able to obtain what mortgages they like ; and I submit that it would be no use trying to grow fruit under those conditions, and, moreove;r, it weiulel ruin my business. Then, so far as the local control is concerned, the Board is vested with the, same powers as those contained in the export portion eif the Bill —that is to say, they have full power to control all the fruit. Now, clauses 26, 27, and 28 read- " 26. Every Board established uneler this Act may appoint such officers and servants as it eleems necessary for the efficient carrying-out of its functions uneler this Act.

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" 27. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the foregoing provisions of this Act, neither the Export Control Boarel nor any Local Control Board shall exercise any powers under this Act with respect to the sale of any fruit if the Board is satisfied that there; is subsisting a bona fide contract or arrangement for the purchase and sale of that fruit made: before the passing of this Act. " 28. All moneys receiveel by a Board, by way of le:vy under Part 111 hereof, or in respect of the: sale of fruit, or otherwise howsoe:ver, shall be paid by the Boarel into a separate account at a bank to be approved by the Minister of Finance, and shall be applied by the Beiard as follows :- " (a.) In payment of the expenses, commission, and other charges incurred by the Board or for which the Board may become liable in the course of its business : " (b.) in payment of the salaries and, wages of officers and servants of the Board : " (c.) In payment of travelling-allowances, fees, or other remuneration to members of the Board or to its overseas agents (not being persons permanently employed in the service of the Government)." Neiw, apparently, there are three lots of payments to be: made before the fruitgrowers can got even a small amount of money. Then, subclauses (d) (e) and (/) of the: Bill provide— " (d.) In payment of advances maele by the Board to the owners of any fruit em account of the price of that fruit: " (e.) In payment into a reserve funel from time to time, as the Board in its discretion determines, of such amounts as the: Boarel may consider necessary to enable it to carry on its operations under this Act: " (/.) in payment of tho balance to the owners of the fruit controlled by the Board, in proportions to be determined by the: Boarel having regard to the quantity and quality of the fruit disposed of by it on account of the several owners anel the respective costs and charges inveilved in the disposal thereof." That, to my mind, means absolute pooling; and 1 submit that there is ao other meaning that can be takem out of that at all. As I say, it means pooling the whole: of tho fruit. For instance, supposing there was a lot of fruit produced in New Zealand that was not of very good quality, it woulel mean that that fruit would be pooled with the best quality of fruit from another district, anel that woulel be detrimental to the man who hael the foresight to select good lanel for the production of fruit. All the fruit would be pooled with unsuitable sizes and undersizes, and that would be: of no use: to the fruitgrower who is eneleavouring to produce a good-quality article, lie might just as well be a machine. Then, clause 30 of the Bill goes on to provide — "30. (I.) Every Beiard in its corporate capacity shall in all its operations under this Act be deemed to be the: agent eif tho owners of all fruit of which, the: Boarel has assumed control, and the mutual rights, obligations, and liabilities eif the: Boarel and the several owners shall accordingly be determined in accordance with the law governing the relations between principals and agents ; save that nothing herein shall be construed tei limit the power of the Board to exercise without the authority of the owner erf any such fruit any power with respect to such fruit that may expressly or by implication be conferred on the Board by or by virtue of this Act." That means, I take it, that the Board would be in exactly the same: position as an auctioneer : that is to say, when you put your fruit into the auctioneer's rooms it is at your own risk—no liability attaches to the auctioneer whatever ; but you can go into his rooms and determine when the fruit may bo solel, either to-day, to-morrow, or next week, accoreiing to how the fruit is keeping ; and, as I say, yeiu will be responsible for that fruit. The Board, acceirding to the Bill, incurs no liability, and you do not dare to say a word, and if you do you incur a pemalty of £50. That may be all right in the case of an article that does not perish, but in the case of fruit it depreciates in a week. I submit that the grower himself is the only person who can determine when the fruit is to be; sold and how it is to be sold. I may say that the fruitgrowers in my district arc not millionaires, and they have to sell their fruit according to circumstances : that is to say, perhaps they may want some cash right away and they must have it, and the first thing they do is to look at the fruit, and they say, " I must sell some apples to get some money " ; or, on the other hand, they can see that the fruit will not keep any longer. Accoreiing to the Bill, if it wore brought into law, they would not bo able to do that, because there is a lot of machinery procedure to go through : for instance, there would be the local control to deal with, and, in turn, they would have to get in touch with the control in Wellington who determines what quantity is to be alloweel to be sold at one time. As a matter of fact, they decide on what is to be done, and perhaps by that time the fruit may be rotten. I submit also that the Boarel could not handle thousands and thousands of cases of fruit in New Zealand, unde.r the erne control system—it could not be done. There must be individual efforts in this matter. Every indivieiual grower must have his individual effort concentrated on his particular orchard. Orchards do not pay, as a rule, and that is' the reason why, in my opinion, this Bill is brought forward —that is to say, to assist those people who have orchards at places which are situated a good distance away from the markets and in unsuitable localities —no judgment having been used in the matter at all— and neiw they find themselves in an awful hole, and expect the whole of New Zealand to help them out eif their difficulties by pooling their fruit with that of more favoured districts. Why, the whole thing is so ridiculous that I cannot see how one could explain it any more than I have done sei far as the Bill is concerned. According to the Bill, the moment the fruit is ready to be picked it is not yours—it is somebody else's —that is, it belongs to the Board, to do what they like with it, and there is no redress whatever. You cannot market the fruit when you desire, and consequently it means there is no way of getting any money to carry on your business if it is necessary. To my mind it is impossible for a Board of this description to be worked satisfactorily so far as orchards are concerned —-that is, so far as the Bill is concerned. There is another clause in the Bill that does not appear to me to be very clear, and that being the case I obtained an opinion from Mr. Harper, solicitor, of

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Christchuroh, as to his elefinition about it. The part to which I refer is subclause (3) of clause 6, and it reads — " (3.) Notice: by the; Boarel of its intention to assume; control eif any fruit may be: give:n either by service on the owner of any such fruit eir em any person having possession thereof, eir by publication in any newspaper or newspapers in acceirdance with such conditions as may be prescribed. Eveuy such notice shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, have effect according to its tenor." Mr. Harper is of the opinion that it is tho owner of the fruit who shoulel determine whether his fruit is for export or not, and not the Boarel. Mr. Harper is of opinion that a clause, should bo insorteel in the Bill to make it more definite, and he suggests a clause something to the: following effect. He says — " If there, should be any doubt about tho position, a clause as follows might, be: inserted (say, after clause 10), namely —' Nothing in clauses six, seven, eight, nine, and ten contained shall prevent the; owner or possessor of any fruit, of which notice to assume control has been give;n by the: Export Control Board, from selling and disposing of the same or any part thereof which may not be intended by such owner for export, for leical consumption in New Zealanel or in any provincial district in which the: provisions of Part 11 of this Act are not for the time being in force.' ' That is the alteration Mr. Harper suggests should be made in tho event eif tho Bill becoming law ; and, furthermore, it would make it more distinct. We also object to the packing ami grading being performed in central sfu:els whore: the conditions will be of a severe nature. It would inevitably mean that yeiu would have: to pack tho fruit in central sheds with a view to getting uniform grading. The grading weiuld be severe, and all such defects as oversize anel unelersize would be eliminated. At the: present time wc sell that class of fruit to hawkers in Christchurch, and it deie'S not gei em to the market, and the charges are roducoel to a minimum- that is, as regards cost for cases, cartage, and so em. There' is no cost, involved for packing, and no commission to pay, and Consequently the fruit is seilel by the hawkers at a very cheap rate. By this means the' people earning only limited income's are: in a position to buy fruit. The Bill wemlei not be, askeel for if it was not for the purpose of increasing the priee: eif fruit, because if the: present conditiem eif things continues, tho Nelson growers would be in the' same' position as they are in to-elay—that is to say, they cannot live:. Mr. Allen came to me and askeel me to withdraw my opposition to the: Bill, and I said that 1 woulel not. He said that he would flood us with Nelson fruit, and I told him they coulel not do that and pay all the charges that weiuld be: incurred, anel keep em doing it, because they woulel not get any return from the fruit after paying all the necessary charges involveel. Why sheiulel the' general public—that is, the people who are earning only from £3 to £4 per week —be barreel from obtaining cheap fruit? Because: the Nelson growers want us to put up the price of fruit to a ridiculous figure, I. do not see why the people shoulel not be allowed to buy cheap fruit. There is no other way to dispose of the inferior fruit at a profitable price, and consequently it would all be wasted. At the present time, in the event of a wet day, a man, his wife anel children, do all the; sorting and packing of the fruit, and in this way they eliminate: a lot of the expenses. Them, in oonnnection with the question of inferior fruit, elo you mean to tell me that if a shopkeeper once gets "bitten" with inferior fruit, that he will get "bitten" the second time? I submit that you do not want experts from the Government to tell you how to buy your fruit, because the man buying the fruit knows that he has to buy it anel sell it again in order to make a profit, and 1 submit that they will soon become experts if they have to make a profit on tho fruit they buy. Then again, in Christchurch a large quantity of fruit is sold by private; treaty, and in this way a large: number of growers have been working up profitable businesses after many years' hare! labour. If this Bill becomes law it means that that method will be wiped out, and all their pains and hard work, as well as years of experience, will all have be:en in vain. Another matter that has to be taken into consideration if these packing-sheds are established is that there is nothing to prevent the head man in. the packingsheds from receiving a little bribe from, certain people in connection with the packing and grading eif their fruit. Of course, Ave all have suspicions that corrupt practices will creep in, and this would have to be very thoroughly cemsidered. There is another point that 1 weiulel like to bring under the notice eif the Committee, and it is that Mr. Brash, Mr. Allen, and Colonel Gray seem to be running around New Zealand in connection with this matter, anel I want to know who is paying for that. If that money is coming out of the federation taxes, why should 1. along with others, have to pay that tax in order to allow these men to go around New Zealand tei fight this matter ? 4. The Committee has no knowledge as to that: you arc going away from the Bill ?—Well, sir, if this peioling system were in operation it would mean that our land-values would depreciate tremendously. So far as the Nelson land is concerned it is not worth ss. per acre, altheiugh they say it is worth £20 per acre. As I say, if the system of pooling were introduced, it would bring our land-values down tremendously, and as a matter of fact we would lose thousands and thousands eif pounds in that respect alone. Those, sir, are the: main objections that I have to the: Bill. I coulel go on longer, but it weiuhl emly be a question of repeating myself. I have letters from people, some of them from people in America, in regarel to the question of overproductiem, and one place that was mentioned particularly was Rogue River Valley. A Boarel was set, up, anel it discussed the whole matter, and it came to the: conclusion that if an orchard did not produce four hundred cases of export apples to the acre: the trees should be pulled up and burnt. If the production is anything like it has been during the last year then somebody will have to go to the wall. It is well recognized that if you ovorprexluce then somebody has to lose;. If it wore anything like, butter and meat, where we are dependent on the export and base eiur prices in New Zealand on that export, then it would be different. Some years we lose 2s. and 3s. per case on apples that are exported, anel, in consequence', the Government has to pay out from £10,000 to £15,000, and, of course, it does not like it. Why should erne area of grower?, in favoured districts be; askeel to help the growers in Nelson out of their unfortunate: position ? We did not ask them to go there. I may say that I was there; when the; first 100 acres were planted with fruit-trees, and I said that

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Nelson was unsuitable; —the climate was not suitable, and they could, not make a profit out of the industry. They did not listen, and the consequence is just what I thought— that is to say, the growers are in an awful position. We are sorry that that shoulel have happened, and think the Government should help them, but we do not sec why the Government should help them at the expense of the growers who are in more favourable circumstances. 5. Mr. Forbes.] How long have you been in business ?—All my life. lam now sixty-two years eif age. 6. Do you remember whether the pooling scheme was tried before-—diel they try it in Canterbury ?— I have a case in point. Mr. Longton, through tho help of the Government, built cool stores, and he tried to pool the fruit, but ho got himself into such a hopeless muddle that he did not know where, he was. In the first balance-sheet there: was an item of £3,700 overpaid to growers. He elid not know where he was. That was an attempt that I know eif to organize the pooling system. If we are; going to have that experience: in every part of New Zealand, then all I can say is that we; are: geiing to lose a hit eif money. 7. You said something to the: effect that your association passed a resolution against the Bill ? — Yes. 8. How many members are there in your organizatiem ?—I think there: are' one hundred and forty —perhaps there are nearly one hundred and fifty. As a matter eif fact, the secretary of the association will have: all the figures in that respect. 9. I understand, that Mr. Brash received a letter from the Rangiora fruitgrowers, and they saiel they supported the Bill?—The:v supported tho Bill at first, but em the: 6th September they had another meeting and discussed the Bill. I may say that they elid not have: the Bill when they sent the; first resolution ; but at the meeting on the 6th September they passed a resolution against the Bill—-that is, almost unanimously they opposed it. 10. Then it is not correct to say that the Rangiora fruitgrowers favour the 'Bill ? —No, that is not correct. 11. I had a le:tter from them a little while ago saying that they approved the; Bill, but evidently they have; hael another meeting since: ?—Yes. That letter was sent in August, and this later meeting was held on the: 6th September'. 12. 1 understand what you have said refers to North Canterbury : what is the: position with respect to South Canterbury ?—There are very few growers in South Canterbury ; there are only a few eleiwn at Timaru anel Waimate. I cannot say much about that district. That is a hundred miles away from Christchurch. But there are not many growers down there. 13. Where; are the main growers in your association ? —All around Christchurch. 14. How far out? —Round the foot of the, hills, and right round Riccarton and Papanui. The: bulk of thorn are in Papanui. There are also some at Kaiapoi. 15. That covers the hundred and forty ?— There are more, growers than that. The one hundred anel forty are, I think, members of the association. 16. In regard to the question of voting if the: Bill is put into operation : elo you think what is proposed would meet your views ? —No. I know something about electioneering. 1 have: been at it for twenty-five years in connection with local-body and parliamentary elections, anel I do not like it. Ido not think you should have anything like: that in connection with the fruit industry. 17. As far as the Bill is concerned, yeiu can. speak canelidly that it has not emanated from Cantorbury ? —lt has not emanated from Canterbury- —1 can assure you of that. It came from Nelson —that is where it came from. 18. You do not even favour the export clauses ?—No ; not the export clauses, or anything else. The. export clauses would not assist us. We do not ship for export, anel have not done so for the last ten years. 19. Would you have any objection if the Bill was confined to Nelson alone ? —No, I would have no objection if the: Bill was confined to Nelson. If Nelson wants it, let them have it by all moans. I shoulel have no objection so long as it did not interfere with me. 20. Has Canterbury had any of the Government money in connection with the: export eif apples ? — Nei, we; do not export a single case. 21. You elo not get any of that money ? —No, of course we: elo not. We: do not' get any of that money ; we do not export. 22. Mr. Hawken.] Do you think that there is too much fruit grown in New Zealand for local consumption ?—No. This year there were 200,000 cases sent away, and I am of opinion that if that 200,000 cases had been left in New Zealand the prices woulel have been very fair to the growers. That is what I think of New Zealand consumption. 23. But is not the, quantity of fruit being grown increasing all the time ? —Yes. 24. Out of all proportion to the population ?—Oh, 1 could not say that. 1 del not know the; proportion that is being grown to the population. The; year before last the; fruit was seiling at a fair price. Last year it was not, be:cause that was a slump ye;ar, and we only got slump prices. But this year the' prices have been good, right from the start. We have boon able to sell thousands eif cases this year at ss. a case direct from the: tree's tei the consumer. Anel that pays us admirably. But if we came: under this Control Bill we would have to pay something like 12s. in-expenses for storing, packing, and other expenses. 25. But if there is overproduction—and that seems likely—do yeiu not think it is absolutely necessary to work up some system of getting rid eif the: surplus fruit by export ? —Well, you see, Canterbury eioes not export. 26. Yes, that may be so ; but I. will put it this way'to you : you would not like: Nelson being forced on to the Christchurch market ? You would rather that they exported ? —1 would, of course, sooner

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have them export; but, at the same time, if the Government does not feel inclined tei help Nelson, it weiuld not matter a bit to Canterbury. If Nelson was to put thousands eif cases into Canterbury it weiuld not matter a bit, because their expenses woulel bo so great that they e:eiulel not sell against us. 27. But for a time you woulel have a struggle ? —Well, we; woulel not make: a fortune. 28. Woulel it not be better to have an organized system of exporting the fruit ?—For all over New Zealand ?. 29. For those: whei want to export ? —lf there was a system of exporting from Nelson I suppose: it would help to a certain extent. But it would not work all over New Zealand. Fruit docs not ripen at one particular time, and each district's requirements as regards fruit vary cemsiderably. Supposing, for instance, that Canterbury shipped for export, it would then bo necessary to establish our own centre:, and not have our centre in Wellington. It would be far better to work it from Canterbury. Each provincial district should have its own centre. 30. Of course, we quite understand that. Do you not think that the Control Board weiuld use ordinary common-sense ? —Well, I do not know what they would use;. A man who is fruitgrowing all his life: is generally a silent sort of man ; he is not a talker. But it is generally the talker who gets on to. Boards of that sort. 31. But when it comes to business outside of your own centre, you would then be; at a disaelvantage unde:r present conditions ?—Do you mean, if 1 send the fruit throughout New Zealand ? 32. Or to England ?—I do not think so. 33. Do you not think that the fruitgrower is at a great disadvantage as soon as the fruit gets out of his hands ? —No. I do not know anything about export at all. 34. Do you not think that the Board, whose special function it would be to watch that fruit on behalf of the grower, woulel do better for the grower than he can do for himself under present conditions ? Well, so far as shipping is concerned, it might do something ; but I think the: fruit shoulel be: shipped from the various centres in which it is grown. It gets ripe so rapidly that it should be dealt with at once. 35. Of course, that is a matter of management. The point 1 want to make; is this :Is it ne>o likely that there will be too much fruit for the local market ?—Well, of course, that remains to be seen. Now, this year it was not really necessary to have any exported at all. The; price leieally was quite profitable. Another year perhaps it might not be so profitable. 36. But as the: orchards get older will there not be too much for the local market ?—Well, of course, there: might be more, but I think there; will probably be less. Ido not think there will be so many orcharels. Them: will be more of the eirchards wipoel out: that is my opinion. 37. Mr. Lysnar.] I unele:rstand you elo not export at all ? —No. 38. And if the Bill is confined to export you will have no objection ?—lf it is oonfined to export, so far as lam personally concerned, I have nothing against it. But I think that it ought to be; made of advantage: to exporters from one end of New Zealand to the other. 39. What weiuld you suggest ?—That each district should have an export centre of its own. 40. Is not that what is intended ? —No ; the Bill says that the centre must be Wellington. It says the fruit must be: shipped from any port in Now Zealand to the central piort, and that it is to be exported from there. 41. You think that there should be different centres ?—Yes, different centres, and let those centres manage their own affairs. 42. What would you say if provision was maeic in the Bill that the local control coulel not come into effect without the consent of a certain percentage: of the fruitgrowers of the; district ? —Well, that would bo better than the bare majority. That would be something like prohibition. Ido not think it should be elecided. on a bare majority. But all the same, we are not in favour of the Bill at all. Canterbury is not in favour of the Bill at all. 43. What would, you say would be a fair proportion ? —Say, two-thirds. 44. You state that you cannot mortgage your own fruit. Did you not notice that there is a provision in that connection in tho Bill —in connection with advances made to the owner of the fruit ?— Yos, but they can mortgage the fruit for other purposes if they wish. The Bill does not give any restriction of their mortgaging transactions : it says that they can mortgage: the whole lot. 45. The; Bill says, " For the purpose of securing any advances that may be made; to the; Board or tei the owners of any fruit at the request of tho Board " ?—Yes, but they would have to pay expenses. 46. But they have no power to mortgage for expenses ? —Well, I do not read the Bill that way. 47. The Bill says, " For the purpose of sescuring any advances that may be made to tho Board eir to the owners of any fruit at the request of the; Board, the: Board shall, by virtue of this Act, and without further authority, have full power on behalf eif the eiwners of any fruit to give security over such fruit " ? —Well, supposing I went to a banker and made arrangeunents for the coming year, I would have to let him know how many thousand cases I will have;, anel what 1 estimate: they will fetch. I will have to give full security for the coming year. 48. Of course:. Then the next clause reads, " The Boarel shall have power, for the: purposes of its business, to borrow moneys by way of bank overdraft or otherwise howsoever, and may give as security therefor debentures, debemture-stook, mortgagee, or other securities charged em any or all of the assets of the Board." That has nothing to do with fruit Mr. Forbes : But what are the assets of the Board ? 49. Mr. Lysnar.] Do you think it woulel help the: position better if there' was simply an overhead charge of so-and-so- a charge by the case or by the pound ?—Do you mean for local control or for export ? 50. For any purpose —on the same: basis as what is done in connection with the: Dairy Control Board and the Meat Control Board ? —Do you mean for both local control and export ?

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51. Yes, both local control and export ? —Well, I could not answer that off-hand. But it would be bettor than what is now in the. Bill. We would then know what it is going to cost us. The Board could not them go to ridiculous expense: and then charge us up for it. 52. If a levy was provided in the Bill covering expenses it would be more acceptable to you than the present provisions ? Yes —that is, if they couid not go any further than the levy —that is, if they could not touch any of the sales of the fruit. 53. What woulel be' a reasonable; levy to cover the expenses ? —Well, at the present time the auctioneers charge 10 per cent. We should not pay more than 10 per cent, in any case. 54. Is that 10 per cent, on the value ? —lO per cent, on the value; of the fruit sold. 55. Would you make it at so-much per case—lo per cent, on the value of the case ? —Yes. If the; auctioneers are satisfied with 10 per cent., the Board ought to be satisfied with it. We wish to have costs eliminated, but this Bill is going to put on more costs. It is going to give us another middleman. 56. That would not cover shipping ? —No. 57. That would be plus the shipping ? —Yes. Of course, with respect to shipping 1 can give no information. I have: had no experience in connection with shipping ; I have not done any exporting. 58. You have a very strong objection to the cemtral packing-slice! ?—Yes. Of course, about Christchurch nearly all the growers pack their own fruit. They pack it on wet days and at other times when it is most convenient. 59. Is it clear in the Bill that there must be central packing-sheds ?- It does not say so particularly that there are to be central packing-sheds, but how are you going to have: it in any other way ? 60. Woulel not the graders supervise the grading in the same way as they do in connection with the Meat Board ? —I woulel not lot a grader come into my orchard. They slit the stalks and pick the skins 61. Mr. Forbes.] I think Mr. Lysnar means the human grader, not the mechanical graeler ? —Oh, I thought ho was referring to the mechanical grader. 62. Mr. Tjysnar.] Would it not be satisfactory if the grader was to travel round and supervise your grading for export ? —Of course there would have to bo a number of graders doing it; one coulel not elo it. That would be: a better idea, of course, than a central packing-shed. 63. You say that the Government at present pays out something like £15,000 a- year in connection with fruit exported ? —Yes. 64. Do you get any of that ?—No. 65. Who gets it ? —I presume the exporters get it. I think it is Neison that gets it chie:fly. 66. Are there any exporters down your way ? —No. Deiwn in Central Otago they export, but that is a long way from Canterbury. Canterbury does not export. 67. Heiw is this money paid :is it paid by the case ? —lt is a guarantee: eif Id. per pound. That runs out at about 3s. 6d. a case, I think. Dr. Reakes : Three shillings and fourpence. 68. Mr. Lysnar.] Did I understand you to say that you could sell fruit at a profit at ss. a case in Christchurch ? —Yes. 69. And did I understand you to say that if this Bill went through you woulel have to sell at about 12s.?—Yes, at considerably more. 70. You say that you can now sell at ss. a case, anel can get gooel results —equalling 12s. if this Bill went through : is that correct ? —Yes. They would, have to put the fruit in cool store, and there would be other charges. Under such circumstances 12s. would bo no better than ss. or 6s. off the tree. 71. Hon. Mr. Nos'worthy.] You are certain that this Bill originated in Nelson ? —Yes, I think it did. 72. But you arc not sure ? —Of course. But where did it come from if it did not come from Nelson ? 73. Did I understand you to say that Nelson was the only place: that wanteel the Bill ? —Yes. But I think Hastings wants it now. When it was first mooted they did not want it. 74. And do you not know that Auckland wants it ? —Up to this year Auckland did not export very much. 75. The:y are pretty unanimously in favour of it for export ? —They did not export much last year. 76. They exported a little last year ; and Otago exports, too ? —Yes. Otago exports, but Canterbury does not. Hawke's Bay, I think, exported about seven hundred cases last year. Fred Sisson examined. (No. 12.) 1, The Chairman.] What is your full name ? —Fred Sisson. lam from Turakina. 2. And you represent ?—Oh, I just represent a few eif the: growers there and in Wanganui. We had a meeting in Wanganui. We were a bit concerned about this Bill taking over the fruit. If this Bill was to do that we would lose our customers, and the many years that we have spent in collecting this trade together woulel be: lost. This year I produced about four thousand cases. That is about my best. Well, of all those cases I have not sold one at auction —I have sold every one, direct. 1 sell cases to any one whei comes along. Sometimes men come along in motor-cars and buy cases of fruit from me, I sold one man seventeen hundred cases one day. I sell either direct to the consumer or to the shops. Ido not sell any by auction, and all the growers at Wanganui do the same. Wo do not sell through the auction-roeims :we work up the market ourselves. 1 sell up as far as Manaia and Stratford. I also sell tei the Government —I sell to the Railway Department. I have, sold fruit to the Railway Department at ss. 6d. a case. They just send down a telephone' message from Marton saying

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they want so-many cases " this afternoon," and I send the fruit along to them right away. I could not do that under control. 1 have; sold a good deal of fruit to the Railway Department at Marton, some, at ss. 6d. and some: at 6s. a case. 1 do not say it was a first-class article:. I coulel not, for instance, supply the best Baliarat apples at that price ; but the fruit.is of good quality. Sometimes they require tvvei or three cases a day. 3. You have a good local trade ?- Yes. I coulel have; gone to Hastings or Nelson, but I went years ago to Turakina. 1 think I can grow fruit there neiw, because I have only about 10 acres, and I took this year four thousand cases off it. I can produce a good cooking-apple. Weil, Ido not see that those: clauses 6, 7, 8, and 9 of the Bill shoulel be brought into operation and be allowed to take away our labours of years. As I have told you; I sell my fruit throughout Manaia and Stratfeird, and this Bill would burst up my connection. I would lose the whole, business that 1 have been years in gathering together. From what T have' heard about this Bill, it seems to have come from Nelsofe-. I have been told by a member of the Board of Agriculture that the Nelson people, pleaded for a Bill of some sort. I was told that by a member of the Boarel of Agriculture last year. I have a pretty good idea it is the Nelson peole who want it, because they want some, assistance. 4. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] Have you any objection to the export part of the, Bill ? —Oh, no. Ido not know anything about exporting. Ido not do any exporting. 5. Mr. Forbes.] What province would you be in? —In the Wellington Province. 6. You do not think that you would be well represented by only having one delegate for the whole: district ? —I woulel not have a say in it. lam only by myself in the industry. 7. You are quite satisfied for the matter to be left alone ? —Yes. 8. Do you think it would upset your present arrangements if it were agreed to ? —Yes. Edward lleathcote Williams examined (No. 13). 1. The Chairman.] Whom do you represent *—I do not represent anybody. I have a orchard in Hastings. When I first started operations I did so as a hobby, but after a while: it outgrew me. I shoulel like to point out to the Committee that I am in favour of exporting as much fruit from New Zealand as we: can got away, because it is essential to the life-blood of the industry. 1 observed the remark made by Mr. Sisson to the effect that Canterbury does not export at all. They nuiy be able tei keep em their own ; but if anything is going to save the industry in New Zealand it will be the exporting of fruit. I should like to give my experience in regard to the exportation of pears, which do not have: the advantage of the Government guarantee. lam growing about 30 acres eif Winter Nelis pears, which is the pear that keeps longest and best in New Zealand ; it will keep for six months in cool store in New Zealand. lam quite sure on this point, because I have tested it. I may say that last year f exported a certain quantity of these pears to London, and I. believe I was the first in New Zealand to export them. They netted me in Hastings over £1 per case. Notwithstanding the, fact that the Government would not take the risk of taking them, they arrived in England in excellent order, owing to the manner in which the Dominion Line looked after the consignment. I asked them to interest themselves in the matter and see that the pears were carried at a proper temperature. They elid so, and the pears sold very we'll. All I can say is that that is a most satisfactory state of affairs, anel it means money to the growers who interest themselves in growing that kind of pear. This year 1 sent 330 crates of the same pear to the same agents in London, but, owing to the cool storage on the ship by which the, consignment was sent not being in a satisfactory condition, my agents at Home reported that the consignment elid not arrive in a gooel condition, and said that twenty-five crates were bad; anel on that shipment I netted over 17s. per crate, including the bael ernes. In each of the crates I put a slip of paper asking the consignee to let me know how the pears reached him, because it was the beginning of an industry, anel I wanted to find out the opinion of the people at the other end as to what they thought of the pears. I received about ten replies this year, anel all the replies were highly satisfactory as to the state of the fruit, and they urged me to ship larger quantities, because they were the best pears they could get. They made suggestions in regard to proper packing, e&c. 1 may say that my trees are coming into heavy bearing. As you are no doubt aware, pear-trees take: a long time to bear. 1 propose to continue shipping pears to England. With regard to apples, I sent two thousand cases last year from Nelson, and, I netted 6s. per case after allowing for a considerable portion of that shipment being wasted, owing, I think, to the cool-storage conditions on the ships. One: of the greatest difficulties exporters have to contend with is the carriage: of fruit tei London. I woulel like to say, however, that the Department of Agriculture, in my opinion, is doing its best to overcome that difficulty. I have had many a long talk with Mr. Campbell about the matter, and I am quite sure he, is doing his best in the matter ; but it is absolutely essential when shipping fruit to have it held on the ship at the correct temperature. Another point, sir, is the absolute importance of having the strictest possible supervision before fruit leaves New Zealand. No doubt you will say that this is only a subsidiary industry so far as New Zealand is concerned, but I honestly believe that with careful handling it will become a very important industry. What we want to aim at is to obtain a good name, in England, by sending only the best quality of fruit, anel wo should try anel maintain that gooel name. I hope that the Inspectors in future will not allow a single case tei leave New Zealand that is not properly packed and contains only tho best quality of fruit. No person should be allowed to send inferior fruit that will be likely to injure New Zealand's name so far as the industry is concerned. In regard to control, I have not given the matter very much consideration, but if it is absolutely necessary in this fruit industry that some sort of control for export should exist, then 1 should favour it, provided it is intended to get the best men in New Zealand

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to act upon the Board. It is proverbial that, as a .rule, fruitgrowers are not business men. You want to get men with good level heads, to see that justice is done. Then, I should object personally to restrictions on freedom of contract between tho growers in Now Zealand and the agent at tho other end of the world. In my position I want to be allowed to contract without being told by a Beiard that lam not allowed to deal with any particular agent I want to. Some two years ago—if you will excuse me introducing somewhat irrelevant matter —when the M.C.C. sent a cricket team to New Zealand, amongst them was young Gibson, whose father is in a very large way of business in the Argentine. Well, young Gibson came to my place, anel took a great deal of interest in my orchard, and he: teild me he would like to introduce my fruit into the Argentine. Well, I sent several cases over by him, and I got a letter from his father's firm, who arc in a ve:ry large way of business there,. It is an English firm of very old standing. They said that they would bo willing to act as my agents. Well, I was delighted with the prospect, anel T would have sent a goeiel consignment of apples, but I was refused permission to do so by the Government. It appeareel that a c.i.f. contract had been made with a Monte Video agent, and. the Government issued, an Order in Council prohibiting the export of either fruit. I did, not think that the: Order in Council was valid, but I could not spend the money and the: time in testing it, because, as you know, tho fruit season covers a very limited period. Well, I had to disappoint those people, who would have taken a very large quantity of my fruit; and they can obtain higher prices than yeiu can got by auction in Buenos Aires. I have no objection to control provided lam allowed to made contracts with a firm like that. I object to being told that lam not allowed freedom of contract. With regard to local control, I cannot say that I have very much faith in it. I prefer to run my own business in New Zealand. Ido not want to be told what to do. In regard, tei grading, it is absolutely essential that the graeling should be done by machinery if you have a crop of any extent. I dare say the Committee are aware of the very great drawbacks that fruitgrowers have to put up with, and the: expense of grading is one of them. If graeling is done by hand it is too laborious and too slow. Take: the Winter Nclis poar, for example. The picking of that pear for export must be done in about a fortnight. The pear must be picked at the psychological moment. If it is picked too late it will not keep, and, on the other hand, it must not be picked too early. Tei be; properly pickcel for export you must have a number of men who know their business, acting under a manager. That fruit has to be picked, graded, and packed, and passed for export by the Department's experts, and sent down to Wellington and away as soon as possible. It is very hard work, and the men work very long hours. My experievnee is that the men who work in an industry of that seirt are tho most faithful that anyboely who embarks in such an industry as that can have. Ido not know that there is anything else I can say. 2. Mr. Hudson.] What is your district ?—Hawke's Bay. ■3. Of course you have studied the Bill ? —I have read it. 4. You are against local control ? Yes. 5. Would you object to other districts having local control ?—Which districts ? 6. Say, Auckland having local control ? —No, not at all. 7. But you arc to a certain extent in favour of export ? —I am absolutely in favour of export. 8. I mean, export control ? Subject to what I have stated. 9. I suppose you will agree that if the: Board was set up they would do everything possible to allow as much latitude as they could in connection with the carrying-out of tho control ?—I presume they woulel, of course. I woulel like to say that I favour export control very largely because Mr. Napier has discussed the matter with me, anel I must say he is the best agent we have ever had in New Zealand for export. I believe that he knows all about it, and lam not going to set my opinion up against his. I have worked with him, and I have found him most satisfactory in. every way every ti me. 10. Mr. Lysnar.] Have you any eibje;ction to pooling your fruit with anyboely else's? —Yes. I would not have pooling under any consideration. 11. You think there should be no pooling ? —Yes. I do not believe in pooling; I am opposeel to it all the time. I may say that I am. interested in a company in, Hawke's Bay, where they went in for pooling without my consent, and they have lost money the whole time. 12! You think that shoulel be guarded, against ? —I do not approve of pooling at all. You have the: handicap of having to suffer for the sins of other people. It. is bad enough to have to suffer for one's own sins. 13. You say the authorities refused permission to export to the Argentine: was there any reason for that? —The reason was that they had this c.i.f. contract for apples, and they wanted to sell all the fruit through that contract. I believe they made a stipulation that no other fruit was to go through but what was included in that contract. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : I think, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Lysnar was absemt when I made an explanation with regard tei the embargo. I made an explanation to the satisfaction of the men who were here—at any rate, I told them the truth about the whole thing. 14. Mr. Hawken.] You have boon a long time in the fruit business : do you think that there will be an oversupply of fruit in New Zealand ?—Yes, there is now. 15. And the supply of fruit is growing out of all proportion to the population ?—Yes, under present conditions. Of course, many of tho unfortunate people who invested in orchards in Nelson were absolutely misled from the start. I believe they were told that in most cases they would be able to retire after five years. I woulel have retired, to the Bankruptcy Court long ago if I had had no profession to help mo through. That is, of course, dealing emly with the sales in New Zealanel. I hope that export will save the industry. 16. You think it is absolutely necessary that there should be control of export? —Yes, subject to the remarks I have made.

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17. If we do not export, then you think that the fruit industry in New Zealand will be in a disastrous condition ? —There are a large quantity of fruit-trees not in bearing yet, even in oldestablished orchards. In my place, for instance, in a few years' time the output of pears will probably be ten thousand, cases; and if they are a marketable commodity in England, or in other parts of the world, that is the place to send them. I always reserve a certain amount for the New Zealand market, but it cannot take all. 18. Fruit, in other words, is reaching that position which butter, cheese:, anel meat have reached. The export prices will control the local prices eventually ? —Yes. I would just like to add this : that I had a letter a month eir two ago from a largo firm in Liverpool asking me if I would consign them fruit to Teneriffe. They wanted to open up a new business there. I wrote back and said I would be very glad to do so provided shipping was available. 1 only mention that to show that our fruit is being inquired for everywhere at the other end of the world. The fruit already sent has given us a good name, and we have got to keep it up or else go down. 19. You think that a Board who made a study of the markets wouhl be a help to the private grower, who really has no time and no means of finding out these markets and handling them, especially the small grower ? —I do not want the help of any Board as far as I am concerned. I should have thought that the export business would go on as it does now, with freedom of contract and supervision by the Department. There would be no need for a Beiard at all. 20. The small grower would not be in as good a position- anel I, suppose the bulk of the growers are small men ? —Most of them are. If they did not employ their families at it they could, not live at all. 21. When it comes to exporting they woulei not be in a position to do it ?—They might benefit by a Board. 22. Mr. Corriga/n.] Supposing that the Bill goes through, it provides that provinces may deciele for themselves whether they have local control or not: would not that suit your objection ? —I should like a greater margin than a bare majority. You can quite understand that if a-man carries on a business like this, desiring to make it successful, and undertakes all proper safeguards in the handling of money, looking after trees, &c, he does not want to be interfered with by outsiders. 23. I think we all recognize that individual effort is required, and individual supervision over every orchard; but this is really more for the marketing of fruit. Would you prefer to have a clause prohibiting local control and having control for export only, or would you prefer to leave it to the provinces to say themselves ? —As far as local control is concerned, I do not consider that I have any right to make a suggestion to any other provincial district in New Zealand as to what the Boarel should be. Ido not want to interfere with them. 24. Well, now, from what I can gather from your evidence as far as export control is concerned, you are in sympathy with it under certain modifications ?—Yes, subject to the stipulations I made in my statement. Ido not want to have freedom of contract interfered with. 25. Mr. Tjangstone.] .Supposing that the Board were set up, and that you had contracts with various people in London, Montevideo, or Teneriffe, weiuld you have any objection to the Boards acting with you ? —Not unless they chargeel too much for their fatherly interest. 26. I do not think there would be any expense attached to that ?—There is 3d. a case levy, is there not, under this Bill ? Some money must be required to keep the Control Board going. 27. There are quite a lot of people getting a living out of the marketing of fruit to-day ? —They elo better than the, growers. 28. Do you not think the Board would be able to eliminate some of those excessive charges ?— I suppose if you eliminated them in one direction they would spring up again in another direction. 29. Do yeiu think that the Board, by acting for the, whole of New Zealand, could make better arrangements with the shipping people for the carriage of fruit than can be done under the present arrangements ? —Well, I dare say it could, provideel it worked in conjunction with the officers of the Agriculture Department, and subject to the stipulation that the members of the Board must be men fit for the job. 30. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] I would just like to ask you if it was not a fact that you were refused permission to ship apples and pears to South America last season ? —I hope it is not a breach of confidence, but I saw the Attorney-General, and he told me of the Oreler in Council, and he said I had better not try, though I was at liberty to attack it if I liked. 31. There is no breach of confidence in saying you had seen him ; but if you had seen the head of the Department, or myself, as a matter of fact, you might have sent pears to South America, because the restriction applied to apples only ? —I saw your officers. 32. Do you think a capable representative in London would be of value in the better elisposal of our fruit in that market ?— lam glad you mentioned that. lam a strong advocate of sending a man Home to go all round the United Kingdom and find out tho markets. In my opinion it is useless sending a man like Mr. Attwood for a few months selling apples at Wembley like a second-class shopkeeper. We want to senel a competent man to go round the United Kingdom and to stay there. I believe that the demand for fruit would in that way be doubled or even trebled. 33. You understand that the idea of the Board is that, if this besoomes an Act of Parliament, if a Boarel is set up, that it would be their function to have some proper representative in London. Although you spoke; very well of the Agriculture Department for their grading and superintending of shipping, do you not realize that a properly constituted Board of producers could attend to the matter of shipping with greater authority, in conjunction with the other Control Boarels, as regards seeing that proper conditions obtained respecting the carriage of fruit ? Without that Control Board you will have this " in and out carriage of fruit," as you describe it, lagging on indefinitely ?—lf I might make a suggestion, I shoulel respectfully suggest to the Committee that they should deal only with

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export coutrol in this Bill anel le;ave' local control alone. I think you will ge't into trouble if you start local control. 34. You quite understand that local control is optional. It rests with each district to say whether they will have it or not. I gather from, what .you said that you recognize that export control is absolutely essential, and that it must be conducted on the highest business lines ?—Yes. 35. Mr. Forbes.] In connection with the local markets you think that we are jiroducing now more fruit than we can eat: do you not think more: coulel be done in the way of distribution here in New Zealand ? —A good deal could bo done, of course. It means a lot of organization and expense in doing it; but as a matter of policy every householder in New Zealand ought to have half a dozen cases of apples through the season for the: family's health's sake. 36. Do you not think that there would be a good increase in the consumption of apples in New Zealand as years go on and people get more knowledge of the benefit of the: fruit ?—lf every householder in New Zealand would eat apples like you have suggested, we could not grow too much fruit here for many years to come. 37. Did you hear Mr. Sisson say that he hael no difficulty in getting rid of all his fruit ?—He is next door to a big city ; but Mr. Sisson would soon find it out if the export were: stopped. 38. He claims that no imported fruit can compete against Christchurch fruit ? —lt would not pay the man who sent it down there, but it would seriously affect Christchurch growers, too. 39. As far as the control is concerned, a good deal would depend upon the class of men who got on the Board : they might make a mess of it ? —Yes. If you got a gooel personnel it should be a success. 40. Do you think the industry is big enough now to carry the expense of an organization such as might be set up under it ? —I think so. Provided the: work was well done: it should pay. It would be a growing business. 4-1. You could do it better than the Agriculture Department coulel? —The Agriculture Department has done wonderful work. Ido not know whether you could, better them ; but any Board ought to work in conjunction with them. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : The Agriculture Department think the Board ceiuld do better than they are eloing. 42. Mr. Forbes.] In fact, the: Agriculture Department want to get rid of it ?—The officers of the Agriculture Department, especially the Fruit Inspectors, cannot do too much to help the inelustry em. They are the best friends the fruitgrower has. We are particularly fortunate in the Hawke's Bay Inspector, who is not only a capable; man, but a man of great scientific knowledge, and he spares no end of trouble and time to go and see, that the fruit is kept clean. 43. You have an orchard in the Tasman district ?—Yes, unfortunately. 44. Do you know anything about the feeling of the: orchardists over there ? —I heard they were against it, but I have not seen them. 45. What effect do you think it would have on the market if the two hundred thousand cases exported last year were retained in New Zealand ? —I think it is obvious that there would be a terrific glut. 46. In other words, the: export saved the situation last year ? —Yes. I am quite sure personally that 6s. not is not a great price for apples, but it is a payable price. If I had not sent them Home I would not have got that here. H. E. Morgan examined. (No. 14.) 1. The, Chairman.] Whom do you represent ? —1 am the secretary of the Canterbury Fruitgrowers' Association. I beg leave to read a resolution passed by that association at their last meeting. It is as follows : " We, the Canterbury Fruitgrowers' Association, strongly object to the: Fruit Control Bill being carried in any shape or form." I may say that we represent 156 members. The resolution may appear a bit drastic, but there are so many objections to it. Mr. Sisson has pointed out a good many. We thought it was no use worrying you with a whole lot of things on paper, so we decided the best way would be to object to the Bill as a whole. No doubt the Government have done a vast amount for the fruit industry, and we are very much obliged to them for what they have done, but now when you start the control business with fruit you arc up against one of the biggest problems that you ever tackled, because it is a perishable article, and consequently is not like butter or meat that can be held over for twelve months if the market is bad, but it has to be: got rid of in a reasonable time. Then, next season's fruit is coming on, and it will not keep, and the fruitgrower wants his money as he goes along. He wants to sell as much as he: can and get the money to carry on, whereas if it were locked up in a pool he would be very hard up, and possibly would have a lot of trouble to finance tho business. Practically the whole of Canterbury is opposed to the Bill, and entirely opposed to local control. Now, if the Government were a speculating concern and they wanted to buy up all the fruit in New Ze:aland, and they gave, say, ,4s. a case, or even a smaller amount, anel then paid their own charges and dealt with it entirely, lam afraid there weiulel be: very little: to hand to the grower eiver that. You see, the charges would mount up to a tremendous sum. I have, heard a lot to-day about existing fruit lands in New Zealand. J saw in an agricultural paper the; other day where 800 acres wore planted in New Zealand and 800 acres grubbed up, so that practically orchardists are in the same position as they we're twelve, months ago, and it shows thai' it is not a very profitable venture'. If 1 were putting a boy eif mine into a trade, fruitgrowing weiuld be: the last thing I woulel put him into, because he woulel have so much to contend with —weather, markets, and many other things —and then on top of that they come along and want to put control on to us. Very likely the' 3d. a case will run up to Is. a case before the thing is finished. 1 have: been connected with several things that the Government have

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control of, and my experience has not been a very good one. They get more oppressive as they go on very often. It might be done for 3d. a case, but Ido not think so, because in the first place, if the charges were put up to anything between 3d. and Is., that comes out of the members' pockets and handicaps them to that extent. Then, it is proposed under the Bill to appoint Inspectors. These Inspectors, if they are good men, will want fair salaries. You will find when it is all worked out that they are not going to bo, paid out of 3d. a case. Those men have got to bo appointed in each district for export control. Wo arc not specially interested in that, because we, do not export. Now, Loburn. does export a few — 2. Hon. Mr. Nosworlky.] Loburn is in Canterbury, and we wore told that Canterbury exported nothing ?-- I believe they do export a few cases, but I could not say how many. As far as exporting goes, we consider that the federation are capable of managing the exports. Then there an; any amount of people who want to sell to their own agents. You cannot have control if men are allowed to sell to agents. The fruit must be pooled and put under the Board, and the Board must have sole control, not only of the finance, but also of the marketing and everything else. ; and then, of course, they charge per case to the grower. There is a great injustice even in exporting. Take Central Otago : they have splendid fruit down there, and why is their fruit going to bo. pooled with fruit from another province that is not good for export ? If exporting was done by each district, and they each had their own packing-sheds and shipping arrangements, and some one to look after the fruit at the other end, then I consider the whole thing could be done ; but I cannot at all see how the fruitgrowers in any one district are going to benefit in any shape or form. Ido not want to discredit the Government in any way —I will say the Government are trying to help the growers by this Bill. I will give thorn credit for their good intentions, but at the same time I can assure, them that they are not helping the growers - they are only adding to their expense ; for, as I say, if you are going to got a competent Board you have got to pay them good salaries. Then there, are Inspectors to go and see that things are put up in a marketable manner —expense again—and the grower is the man to pay every time. I think, gentlemen, if you let well alone you will be well advised. As far as we are concerned, we do not favour either export or local control. Wo. think things would be well enough managed as they are. 3. I understand that both you and Mr. Sisson represent about sixty growers from Canterbury ?— One. hundred and fifty-six growers. 4. This letter I have before me mentions sixty growers ? —Yes ; sixty attended the meeting voluntarily. 5. Outside that you are not in a position to speak for those who did not attend the meeting ? — I do not think we have got three members of our association in favour of control. 6. With regard to this 3d. a case : you said there was nothing to stop its going to Is. a case. Well, the Act limits it to 3d. ? Yes ; but I suppose it is quite easy to alter the law in that respect. 7. That could not be done the Act states distinctly a levy " not exceeding 3d. per case." 1 have made inquiries since you gave evidence, and I find that five hundred cases of apples left Canterbury for export ? —They came up from Dunedin ; they were not Canterbury apples at all. 8. T am informed that the hundred cases alluded to were grown at the Styx, not in Otago ?—I understood they came from Otago. 9. It is not a very big question. The, point I want to make is that Canterbury is exporting some apples, and will grow to a larger extent as time goes on. You spoke about graders. It is possible, that the Boards would have to appoint graders, but the Government is responsible for the Inspectors We have Inspectors now. They arc not proposing to saddle them on to the Boards. The Department would take the same, interest in the fruit industry as it does now. If the thing is worth doing it is worth doing well. I gather that you are not much opposed to export so long as local control is not brought in in your district —Canterbury ? —We do not export anything worth speaking about. 10. Have you any idea what would be the result if the Government cut off this penny-a-pound guarantee ? What would be the effect on the local markets —Nelson and elsewhere ? —I do not know ; it would be a case of the survival of the fittest, I presume. 11. It would be a clean out, would it not ? It is impossible to carry on the guarantee if we do not get some finality ? —We quite understand that- we cannot expect the penny guarantee for ever; but at the same time, if the penny was cut off the export, they would have to take the chance —the exporter would not pay. 12. lam not saying that —I am looking at it from the business point of view ? —lt is a very difficult problem for the Government. 13. Mr. Langstonc] This Bill is put forward with the idea of helping the distributors ? —Yes, it is a very big problem how far it is wise to help ; it is a matter for consideration. 14. Could the marketing of your fruit be improved to the advantage of the grower ?—Well, J do not think that it could. We. sell ourselves, and we have had far better results than through the co-operative system. We were, very well treated by the markets in Christchurch—we have had nothing to complain of. 15. What does it cost —about 10 per cent. ? —Yes, 10 per cent. If the Government undertake all this, we cannot expect them to do it for nothing. That has got to be put on in any case. .16. You have not found the Government oppressive so far as the fruit department is concerned. ?— No. We have a lot to thank the Government for—it has assisted in helping the industry. It is just a question how far it can go. We do not think this local control is going to help. 17. When new ideas are first promulgated —such, for instance, as dairy-control, grading, sending children to school —some people are inclined to regard them as oppressive—they think that their rights are infringed. Do you not think that the same feeling has been aroused among fruitgrowers in regard to the provisions of this Bill ? —I do not think so. Fruit is a far more perishable article than some of the things that are now controlled.

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18. Do you think that under control a better distribution could be brought about, so that you would have a bigger consumption of fruit in New Zealand ? —No, Ido not think sei. The growers get market reports every day, and if prices are a shilling more in Wellington than in Christchurch they send their fruit to Wellington. The: growers are: pretty well alive; to the fact that they must realize in the best market—they are pretty well alivo to their own interests. 19. Mr. Corrigan.] Mr. Morgan, elo you realize that it is not the Government that is taking control —they are only giving you an Act by which you can form a Board of Control for producers. It will be the producers controlling it, not the Government. The machinery is here for the producers. Barring the Government nominees, they will have five representatives on it, and they may be producers, too ? —That might help a bit. If any one well acepaanited with the fruit industry is on the Boarel it would help. 20. They are really giving the producers this Act to make use of if it is of any assistance to them ? —I quite understand that; but they do not want it—they are quite capable of dealing with the thing themselves. So far as local growers are: concerned, they are quite: satisfied with market conditions at the present time. 21. Assuming that Canterbury does not want local control, but Otago did, you would not begrudge Otago Province that right ?—Certainly not; we do not begrudge it. At the same time it is understood that any district that wanted, local control could have it. Ido not know, however, if one district had control and another did not, whether it would be altogether satisfactory. 22. lias it ever occurred to you that tho Government would not have brought this Bill forward if it had not been suggested by some of the growers ? —From what I saw of things when in the Nelson District some two months ago it is evident that some control is needed. I think, however, you would never hear anything about control if it were not for the export. 23. Mr. Hawken.] You have no strong objection to export control ? —We cannot have, seeing that we do not export. 24. You are not likeiy to be exporting many apples from Canterbury ? —No, not for a considerable time. There arc some parts of Canterbury where you can get better colour—more clay in the soil —and you get a far better sample ; but at Christchurch, where the land is heavy, you can get beautiful cooking-apples, but you cannot get colours. 25. Are: the: orchards in Loburn increasing ?—No, they are not increasing. You cannot sell orchard property ; it is a drug on the market. A. McKee examined. (No. 15.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your full name ? —Arthur McKoe, of Tasman. 2. Do you wish to make any statement ? —I have an orchard there of about 70 acres —not all in bearing —from which this last season I cropped fourteen thousand cases. That is on land that a previous witness called " five-shillings-an-acre land." I am quite satisfied with what the land produces, both in regard to quantity and quality. 3. Mr. Corrigan.] How old are the trees ?—Tho oldest are twelve years. All the orchard is not in full bearing, but the: trees run from about four years old up to about twelve years old. The: position, I. take it, gentlemen, is this : that any scheme that increases marketing charges does not relievo but aggravates the present position. This is my main objection to local control; and in my opinion tho expenses of running the Control Board would be such that it would drive Nelson fruit into a corner on tho local market. What is our position now ? What does it cost us to put fruit on tho local market ? Nelson is isolated. I have a table here which shows what the grower will get, absolutely net, for a case of fruit in any part of the Dominion, in the principal centres, or in London or South America. If you take the Control Board's prices for this past season I will show you how much it has netted growers for their fruit. Here is a Control Board's price-list, issued in February —that was a time when we were getting very good prices on the local market, excellent prices ; but when this list came out the market went down —the prices were lower by shillings per case. This price-list is divided into three grades —" Fancy," " A," and " B." Ido not take very much notice of the first two grades, because the Control Board did not handle much of those grades. Nelson exports right up to the hilt —she exports as much fruit as she can —and what is left after export is mostly second-grade fruit. Therefore what we are concerned with is the handling of the "B " grade fruit. Tho Control Board's price for "B " grade, for some varieties such as Cox's, is 7s. 6d. a case on the floor in Wellington, and this price went down to ss. 6d. for small-sized Cox's ; then the price got down for other grades to 4s. 6d. Suppose wo take something in between 4s. 6d. and 7s. 6d.—l think that is the highest, and 4s. 6d. is the lowest—that would be an average of 6s. Take the price as 6s. ; what did that net to the growers ? 6s. in Wellington, allowing for the Control Board's charge which at that time was supposed to bo 6d. a case, would give the growers Is. 3|d. a bushel. How is it possible for fruitgrowers to carry on at this figure ? If there: had been no control anel tho fruit had been sold in open market tho growers would have got Is. 9|-d. a case. Even that, of course, would not pay. But the point I want to make is this : Since I compiled these figures, allowing 6d. a case for the Control Board, I have made a further estimate, and find that the Control Board charges arc nearly three times that amount. It amounts to this : that the money that would come from the sale of the fruit woulel go to pay tho Control Board's charges. 4. That is voluntary control ? —That is so. However, it failed as regards producing results for the growers concerned. When the control started there was a levy of 2jd. a case, and a charge for brigading of 3jd. : that amounted to 6d. But there were other charges : there was a charge of 2| per cent, allowance for bad debts ; then there was a levy of a case put on all export fruit —Jd.

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of that went to the federation, and the other 2d. a case came back to the provincial council, who passed it on to the: Control Board to help them sell this fruit. Ido not know exactly the quantity, but assuming the Control Board handled 100,000 case;s locally, the levy of 2d. per case on 190,000 cases exported was equivalent to a further charge of 3-|d. on the local sales. On top of that the provincial council handed over their office and clerical staff, and I understand there was a credit balance of £721, which I believe will go to the Control Board to help them.' Well, that is another 2Jd. a case'. The Control Board in the early part of the season tried to control the market by holding fruit back. A lot went wrong and was degraded, and the growers incurred a ve:ry heavy loss. You cannot control a perishable product -the grower must stand behind every case of fruit; he has got to give it individual attention. I put the waste at 3d. a case: that brings tho total charge:s up to Is. s|d. per case. How is it possible for growers to carry on under such circumstances ? It is hopeless. I would like, to mention, gentlemen, that 1 have been growing fruit for the past twenty years, and in pre-war days, when fruitgrowing was a good thing and we all did very well out of it —making a deoent living under pleasant conditions—things were all light. In those pre-war days it cost me, roughly speaking, about half what it costs me to-day for grading and packing. We picked into a bin in the orchard, the fruit was graded and packed, the cases nailed down, and the: express would come into the orchard anel cart it down to the wharf. Including commission, wharfage, freight, cartage, and cases, this cost me 2s. 3|d. I could handle fruit at ss. to 6s. a case anel make' a good profit. The present position is this :We have gone' in for community packing-sheds—l was an ardent supporter eif them —but these community packing-sheds are not an unmixed blessing, and people are going back to the old hand-packing ; it seems that in order to get down our costs we have got to do that. Under the system of community packing 1 estimate that the average: charge made' by the packing-shed is 2s. 6d. In my own case the charge is 2s. Bd. We: have, compared to pre-war days, increased wharfage:, increased freight, increased wdiarfage at Wellington, and a harbourimprovement rate of about Is. 6d. per ton, I think. Then, alleiwing for receiving and delivery charges and commission, there: is Is. B|d. —so there you will see we: have got 4s. 2Jd. a case for putting fruit on the Wellington market. 5. What is the 2s. Bel. for ?—The: 2s. 6d. include:s e;ost of casess, paper, wooel-woeil, grading, paoking, stencilling, and, cartage ; and it is a fair average charge made: by the community packingsheds. 6. Could you do it cheaper individually ?—We find that it can be done-. 7. How much cheaper ?—I have not tried it myself, but I intend to try it ne:xt season with part of my orop. To resume : that is 4s. 2|d. If we want to sell our fruit up the lino —say, at Wanganui —we have another BJd. a case to pay. If you add another Is. s|d. for Control Board charges the; thing is done' it is wiped out. If it were possible for the Control Board tei have adequate control and make prices higher, it is still impossible without making fruit dearer to the public. It is a matter of supply and demand. These charges mean that we are killed in the local market. As I was saying, to put stuff over the railway-line say, to Wanganui —the actual out-of-pocket charges come to 6s. 4d. a case. What does it cost Hawke's Bay to put fruit into Wanganui ? They have all. facilities; they can buy tho cases cheaper; and I ree:kon that their flat rate —railage, receiving, delivery, and broker's commission, on a 6s. sale: at Wanganui will be: 3s. 2Jd. So even without this charge for control we are beaten in competition on the local market, but with it we are' absolutely wiped out. Thursday, 11th September, 1924. A. McKee further examined. (No. 15.) 1. The Acting-Chairman.] Will you continue your evidence, Mr. McKee ? —Yes, sir. I omitted to mention yesterday that one of my main objections to the; Bill was the fact that I had my own arrangements for selling my fruit. I have: opened a depot in Wellington, and I have been selling my fruit there at a payable price, and at a highe;r price than controlled fruit has be:en sold at during the past season. If my fruit had been s.old at the prices at which controlled fruit has been sold this year it weiuld have meant a very heavy loss for me. Now, 1 strongly object to being placed in this position : that I have to spend a year of my life to produce a e;rop, and then have to hand it over to three unknown men, who may not bo able: to manage it so that I shall get a payable price. I think I should consider that a grievous wrong. 2. Mr. Forbes.] What Board of Control are you referring to ? — To the Local Board of Control unde:r tho Bill. 1 understand there are tei be: three' members on the Local Beiarel of Control. I would consider it a grievous wrong if any legislation was passed that woulel interfere with my right to deal with my eiwn produce in my own way, so long as that does not interfere: with the interests of anybody else. Weil, sir, I pointed out yeste:rday that it cost me in pre-war days 2s. 3|d. to put my fruit on the Wellington market. At the present day it costs me 4s. 2Jd. Now, I estimate that, assuming the Board handles 100,000 cases, it costs Is. 5-jd. extra per e;ase to handle that fruit: that brings the chargers up to ss. 7fd. And if you wish to send that fruit up country to a place-, say, like Wanganui, there are further charges amounting to BJd., which bring the total charges up to 6s. 4d. : whereas a district like Hawke-'s Bay, as far as I have; been able to ascertain, can put fruit into the same market at 3s. 2i<l. Well, now, I contend that what is wanted is tei reduce marketing-charges, and not to increase them ; and I believe' that by efficiency eif organization that can be done by the Nelsein provincial council. That woulel be the proper body to elo it. That body could do it without setting up any either body. I believe those charges could be brought down by eliminating the Control Boarel charge's anel altering the system of packing in the packing-shed. Possibly a saving of 6d. a case' could be' niaele

A. MCKEE.]

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there. And then, instead of railing fruit through Wellington up country, and paying forwardingcharges and additional commissions, I would arrange for direct shipments to the, various ports. For instance, if we had direct shipments to Wanganui, I reckon we could put our fruit in there for about 3s. 9d, a case, whereas at present we are hopelessly out of the market. Then there is another thing, sir, and that is this :it is not known exactly what has been the production of the Nelson District. My own opinion is that it may have been up to about 450,000 cases this year, ol which about 190,000 cases were exported. I believe that pretty well half of the fruit that was put on the local market was put on by the growers themselves, who have their travellers, or depots, or special agents ; and 1 am quite convinced that those growers who sold their fruit in that way got higher prices for it than was got under the, system of control this last season. There is no doubt that what is wanted is to provide for the sale of the, fruit of those other growers who have no organization of their own. Well, to do that, the whole thing, in my opinion, is not so much a matter of control as a matter of salesmanship. What is wanted is to boost the sale of the fruit —to push the sale of the fruit by travellers, and in other ways : that is the way to sell it. The thing is to sell it and get rid of it. It cannot be controlled ;it cannot be held—if you hold it it will go rotten and become a heavy loss. Fruit has to be disposed of when it is ready for sale. I believe the Nelson provincial council, if it wero reorganized, would be just as capable of selling the other half of the crop .as the private growers who are at present engaged in selling their own fruit, and selling it to their satisfaction. Now, one of the things we are up against in Nelson is the heavy cost of transport. Unfortunately, through no fault of ours, we are, not linked up with the southern railway system. The only bit of a market we have really is the West Coast. Well, the West Coast has gone since the opening of the Otira Tunnel. That tunnel has been opened, and the railway charges are so low that Otago can put its fruit into the West Coast at a cost of Bd. a case, whereas it costs us 2s. sd. to put our fruit into Dunedin, plus Is. s£d. Control Board charges. So what hope have we, of getting on to the market ? That is undoubtedly a very big handicap on our fruit—the very low rate of railage on long-distance fruit. I understand that there is no cheaper railage in the world. It is considerably less than half the Australian rates, and, I believe, less than half the English rates. Well, that is our misfortune, I. suppose. Of course, what we ought to do is to try and get direct transportation. To get direct shipments to the different ports is our only chance. We send fruit to Auckland, and we get on to the Auckland market satisfactorily, because we have direct boats there; and what we have to face is to got direct boats to the other ports. As to the question of export, I understand that the growers wish to attend to their own export business, and it seems to me that they could do it very much better than outsiders. I have always been of the opinion that, as Nelson is the principal exporting district, it ought to attend to its own exporting, in conjunction with the federation. I do not think anybody can complain of the way the export business has been handled by the federation. I think, they have handled it very well -very well indeed. And it seems to me that the federation and the Nelson provincial council, if properly organized and given their full functions, could do all the work that is necessary without setting up a, third expensive Board. It seems to me the whole relief of the position lies in the more efficient organizing of the export of fruit. Now, so far as we are concerned in Nelson, Ido not think that that is in a satisfactory way. But that is not a matter for control :it is a matter for the Nelson growers. The position is that our fruit is shipped to Wellington ; it is put in the hold of the boat in the summer, and is often carried at a very high temperature. If we wanted to ripen the fruit quickly we could not have a better method than to put it in the holds of those boats. Those boats ought to be properly fitted to carry fruit. Then, when it arrives in Wellington it goes into the Harbour Board sheds, and these sheds are not properly equipped for holding the fruit. lam not blaming the shipping companies altogether for the fruit not arriving in good condition at the other end. It seems to me, that there is a good deal that could be remedied at this end. Well, now, our position is this : that if we could get the boats to go to Nelson direct we, could lighter our fruit, and I think that would ensure the proper carriage of the, fruit. During the past season, if all our fruit for export had carried well, the exported apples would have been payable,; but owing to a few of the shipments not carrying well, that nullified the good prices for the other shipments. The only thing we have got to think of is to get the efficient carriage of our fruit. Now, while we are at a disadvantage so far as the local market is concerned, we have a very big advantage in Nelson in the matter of exporting, if we could get the boats to go over there. Ido not think there is any other part of Australasia that is so well equipped for handling fruit for export. We have three ports there, about equidistant, and each port is equipped with properly constructed fruit-stores. That storage has been properly and specially constructed. During the export season those stores are mostly empty, while we have to put our fruit in inefficient sheds in Wellington at heavy expense. If we could assemble our fruit in those fruit-stores at Nelson, and use the proper temperature that is required, I consider that the. fruit would carry well, unless there was negligence on the part of the shipping company. I will give you an instance of what I have been alluding to. I have here some apples which were picked in March, and you will see, that they are in good order [apples handed round]. Well, the very same fruit as that, picked and packed at the same time, arrived in London in bad order. It was the same fruit, and picked at the same time, and it arrived in London in bad order. Now, that fruit was picked six months ago, and look at it to-day. It is in first-class condition. It has been kept in a proper fruit-store in Nelson. Another point 1 wish to refer to is this —and it is one of the weaknesses, in my opinion, of our export business : the restrictions as to grading arc just a little bit too severe. You will probably be. surprised to know that those are " reject " apples, They are beautiful fruit, but they were left over ; I was not allowed to export them ; and I think, gentlemen, you will find a difficulty to know why. Well, if you examine them very closely you will see a small speck somewhere on those apples, and because of that we were not allowed to export them. That is absolutely good fruit, and would fetch a good price on the English market. There is just a little touch of wdiat is called " black-spot." That does not affect the keeping-quality of the fruit, and is not

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injurious in any way ; and for that fruit in England there is a big demand. Of course, I know the Government are perfectly right in setting a high standard to protect their guarantee ; but what I claim is that if we were allowed to export this type of fruit it would relieve the local market enormously, and that woulel help to solve: our difficulties. I had to keep that fruit back tei help to glut the local market, while there is a big demand for it in England. 3. Would you be; allowed to ship without the guarantee ?- No. I wanted to ship without the guarantee. lam not allowed to ship without the guarantee; : that is the: extraordinary part of the business. I wanted to ship that fruit at my own risk. 4. Hon. Mr. Nosivorthy.] You are aware that Tasmania was sending fruit affected with " blackspot " ? There was a lot of fruit on the London market affected with black-spot, and we, had to protect ourselves ? —Sir, there is black-spot and black-spot 5. We: had to be very careful not to send anything but clean fruit ?—Well, in my own case, instead of exporting at least four thousand cases I could only export 1,450 cases. At the' last moment I got a slight visitation of this black-spot, which is absolutely uncontrollable, anel in my opinion docs not effect the seiling-value of tho fruit in the: slightest. What happened was that that fruit was put in the " B " grade for the local market, but as a matter of fact it was solel by the dealers as " Fancy." 1 think that is all. 6. Arc you against local control, or against export control ? —What I am against is this : I fail to see: why there, should be this increase year after year in the marketing-charges in connection with the export of fruit. There will be: another £3,000 or £4,000 required if this Export Control Board is to do work which, in my opinion, the federation and the Nelson provincial council could do without bringing a third party into it at all. 7. How many years have you been trying to get an efficient organization ? Is there an effioient organization to-day ? -No. I have just pointed out where improvements could be made. I take it that that is not a matter for a Control Boarel. The reforms I have suggested coulel be carried out by Nelson. It is a matter for Nelson. 8. If there is to be a proper organization for the whole of the industry, would not that organization have to be carried out on certain lines by a Control Board, and would not the growers have to fall into line with the requirements of the Board ? —I object to compulsory export control. I object to a man not having the: right of making private sale:s. At the present time I have quote'd an f.o.b. price, for ten thousand cases. Why should I not be allowed to trade in that way ? Jf wo can trade f.0.b., that is the business we want. That will help the industry along. Under this Act wo shall all be wiped out. There will be no individual effort. 9. You are taking up the same: attitude that some people took up in connection with the: Meat Control Bill and tho Dairy Control Bill. They looked at it from an individualistic point eif view, and from the point of view of vessted. interests. Am Ito take: it that you are not prepared to support any change that may work for the betterment of the industry as a whole ?- -I do not say that. 10. But that seems to be your argument ? —No. I say that the federation and the provincial council can do that work. 11. I understand your land is low-priccel land. Now, if a man is in the same district anel has to pay, say, £30 or £40 an acre, weiulel not the cost of production bo ve;ry much higher ? My point is that fruitgrowing cannot bo profitably carried out on such high-priced land ? —That is not so. The whole thing is a matter of the: market price. That land is producing high-grade fruit, anel producing it in a sufficient quantity to make it pay. It is only a matter of marked prices. 12. Is it not a fact that you were personally concerned in connection with a lot of the orchards in the Tasman district which have; boon disposed of ?—Yes. 13. Is it not a fact that during the last week or ton days there has be:e;n an attempt to set up an agitation against this Bill by certain firms interested in the business ? —I understand that some eif the growers got up a petition, and it was signed by growers representing 268,000 cases, objecting to the whole Bill. 11. Is it not a fact that vested, interests have been active over there ? —No. 15. Well, I have been informed that it is the other way ? —lt is not so. 16. There is a difference of opinion, apparently? —I think I know more about it than your informant does. 17. Well, do you not consider that an organization such as is proposed in this Bill shoulel be maele: compulsory in order to make others come into line: anel " play the game " ? —I object to being eleprived of my living. 18. But the Dairy Control Board and the Meat Control Board did not eleprive any man of his living ?—That is an entirely different matter. This is a perishable product. 19. Mr. Forbes.] You think that this Board would be too expensive lor a small industry like tho fruit industry ? —ls that in reference, to local or export ? 20. No, in reference: to export overseas ?—My point is that the charges for marketing have: been increasing every year for some time past, and. I think we have neiw arrived at a time when we must stop. 21. Have tho marketing-charges in connection with the: exporting of fruit increasod very much ? —Since the regulations were brought in with respect to the wiring of cases —no doubt it is a good thing —it has increasod the oxpensc somewhat. Then we had to put on: the; lithograph label, and later on we had to put on two lithograph labels, one on each side; and then we: had to put more nails in each ease ; and all this increased the charges. In my opinion the whole: thing is to keep down tho marketing-charges to a minimum. 22. In connection with this Board, would not one of the first things tei do be' to have an agent in London —say, a manager, or some: person like that ? —I may say that the federation has been sending a man Home. To my mind the federation ought to have an office in London and appoint a man there:

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permanently to look after the export fruit eluring the season, and for the rest of the time he' could go to the Continent and other places in order to find new markets for the fruit. We do not want a Control Board to do that. 23. Has the: federation the money tei do that ? What is its income ?— It derives its income from the' orchard-tax, and it also has a trading account. The: federation could carry out what I suggest by putting em a levy eif so-much per case: in order to cover expenses ; I do not think it woulel cost 3d. per case. 24. Do all the orchardists in New Ze:aland contribute to the federation ? —Yes, as a consequence of the orcharel-tax. 25. What does the federation do for, say, Canterbury, where no fruit is exported to any extent ? —It attends generally to the: interests eif the industry. 26. When the Bill was introduced into the House: it was mentioned that one: of the: main objects of the Bill would be finding new markets and advertising Now Zealand fruit: do they push it sufficiently in New Zealand ? —I am sure they do not. As a matter of fact, the;y have not sufficient funds to embark on an advertising campaign, although an attempt was made last year to get the growers to contribute for this purpose. I am quite sure if the growers would agree to a binding contract to pay so-much per case: in order to pay for a man in England, anel carry on advertising and so forth, it would be to the benefit eif the: industry. There: was a levy of 2]d. on all fruit exported last year. The federation received |d. of that amount, and the other 2d. was given back to the Nelson council, and that went to the Control Boarel to-help to carry on its operations. 27. In the event of no Control. Board being set up you must have some standard at which the apples must be graded ? —Yes. As a matter of fact our export grade is the high grade— in other words, it is the luxury grade. lam thoroughly convinced on this point, because it has helped us to take: the: leading position on the English market, anel the people are: always anxious to get our " fancy " grade of apples. The agent at Homo has informed us that the people pay a higher price for our fruit than is the case with other fruit. But my point is this : when things are bad in the Old Country the working-people have to buy a little cheaper fruit in order to keep within their earning-power. I may say that I got up to 255. per case for some of my fruit last year. As a matter of fact, if I got 16s. per case for my fruit it would yiay me. 28. In connection with the grading of fruit you would have to stop at some grade ? —Yes. The grading is carried on to a very fine point at the present time:. Hero we: have an apple: [produced] that has been thrown out on account of it showing black-spot. There: may be other apples with exactly the same amount of black-speck which are passed by the Inspector, so you will see what the position is. There woulel be, no difficulty about the elifferentiation of the grade if they say that apples with I in. of black-spot may be exported, and if that were done we' weiulel have net difficulty in turning out everything above, that. 29. Is it not a fact that if you export apples that are not up to the market requirements the Government has to foot the; bill under the: guarantee ? —So far as the fancy grades are concerned I am not saying anything about them; let them stand. What I want to say is that under the present regulations, in my opinion, it is absolutely impossible to produce and export more than 50 per cent, of our crop. As a matter of fact, they are striving for an ideal which, is absolutely impracticable. Wo e:annot make it pay. We can produce good-quality fruit, but we want a market for the other apples as well. When we: have fruit of that description we claim that we should be allowed to export it. 30. Do you not think that a Control Board might bo capable of bringing sufficient pressure on the Government to make them lower the grade a bit ? —I think the federation and the provincial council ought to do that. 31. So far as the, local control is concerned, you think you would lose by not allowing the grower to push his own business. Would you not be better organized in the matter of the distribution of the, fruit by having a Control Board ? —I do not think you would, sir. The system has been tried out this year. I should say that half the crop has been sold privately in various ways by the growers who have their own depots, special agents, or travellers, and the cost of putting that fruit on the market was considerably less than what the Control Board realized, and they received higher prices than the Control Board did. The problem that has to be faced, is the setting-up of selling organizations to sell the fruit; it is purely a matter of salesmanship, and not a question of control. 32. Do you not think that the fact of so many growers not being in your federation is a weakness ? —All the growers are in tho federation. 33. Not so far as Neison is concerned ? —Weil, the provincial council. It is not a very vigorous sort of body, but it ought to be the: mouthpiece of the growers in the Nelson District. 34. They make a levy, do they not ?—Yes. 35. Is that levy made voluntarily ? —Yes, practically. We made no fuss about it. It was agreed to make this export levy of 2fd. per case, and the federation deducted the amount from our account sales. Ido not know of anybody who has objected to it. 36. You object to the whole Bill, and you think that this work could be. done by the growers themselves under a voluntary organization, and not done compulsorily ? —All that can be done could easily be done by the federation and the existing provincial council, as far as Nelson is concerned. 37. You think it woulel be better for Nelson to run its own concern ? —Absolutely. 38. There are different problems to contend with in the: Nelson District than in any other part of New Zealand ?—The whole thing depends upon, the success of the marketing of the fruit. 39. Mr. Corrigan.] Earlier in your evidence you saiel something to the effect that the price obtaine.il for your fruit was better than that obtained by the Control Beiard : can you give the: Committee any reason for that —they were both the same: quality of fruit ? —lt was simply that I applied indivielual effort, and by doing that I think you get better returns,

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40. That is the only reason you can give ?— That is one of the main reasons. Speaking for myself, I have my own arrangements for selling, and my prices have always been ahead eif the e'emtrol prices. As a matter of fact, 1 could not possibly sell at the control prices. Of course, the price at which the fruit has been solel by the Control Board is almost ruinous tei the growers, anel I elo neit see, how they can carry on on those prices. 41. You were; speaking about the Wanganui, Auckland, anel. various other markets, and yeiu referred to the expense of getting your fruit em to those: markets ?—Yes. 42. is it not the geographical position eif your orchard that has to be taken into consideration ? Yes, and the absence of railway communication. 43. Assuming your orchard was situated in the Auckland 'District, and yeiu had the' same competition, you woulel be quite able: to compete with the: man in Neisem ? —Yes, quite so. 44. It is necessary to export a portion of your fruit produced in Ne'w Zealand at the present time ?—Yes. 45. It is absolutely necessary ?—Ye:s, absolutely necessary. 46. Otherwise there: would be a glut of fruit on the: market ? Yes, that is the opiniem I hold. .1 may say, however, that this season, at the present time, there is a scarcity eif fruit, and it will command a, big price from now onwards. 47. You admit that the: present organization that is, the provincial council anel the: federation — have weak spots? —Yes, particularly is this so in connection with the provincial council,, because it should have tackled this question of transportation, which is at the roeit of the whole trouble. 18. Are yeiu in a position to give: the Committee the reason why those weak spots exist? —First of all, you have tei pay a commission on the: fruit ; yeiu have' tei pay wharfage, and yeiu have; tei pay railage'. I suggest that if you want efficiency it stands to reason that the be:st thing to dei would be to endeavour to got the shipping companies to run a boat direct from Nelson to, sav, Wanganui, New Plymouth, and either ports. We: have: one running now to Onehunga, anel it has settled the problem for Auckland, so far as we are concerned. 19. Do you not think that a Control Beiard of producers woulel have the; effect of making your organization much better than is the case: at the present time ? —We have set up a provincial council, to elo what is proposed by the Control Board. 50. It has failed in doing its duty, has it not?- I think it has faileel in seimc respects, although 1 weiulel not say it has failed in every way. 51. Is it not a, fact that one: eif the: main objections is the want eif loyalty on the part eif growers— that is, sticking together ? —They elo not think that is so. 52. twill put it this way: Supposing 1 wore a fruitgrower, anel yeiu decided, as a, body, on a certain line' eif action as to what should be> done to prevent the glutting of the: market, and othe;r things in the interests of the industry, anel supposing I took up this stand anel said 1 was not geiing to do what you, as a body, wanted to do, anel that 1 was geiing to de>al with my produce in another way, you would not have any power to make me do what the majority of the fruitgrowers were willing to do: do you not think yOU would want some statutory powers tei compel me to fall into line'? —1 elo not think there is any obstruction. 53. I am assuming that that is the position ?—] do not think that I quite apprehend your question, sir. 54. We will assume for the moment that this Control Board is set up to look after the interests eif the, fruitgrowers ? —That is, either for export or local ? 55. I am referring to the Board under this Bill ? —Yes. 56. Supposing you were one of the gentlemen on that Board representing the fruit industry, and you approached me and I said that I was not going tei have: anything to do with the Board and its powers, anel that I did not agree with what you consielered best in the: interests of the industry, yeiu could not compel me to fall into line unless you had some statutory powers to make me fall into line ?—- -If you set up a Control Board, naturally you would be compelled to fall into line. 57. Do you not realize that this Bill is for that reason that is to say, to help the producers ? — It may be that the Bill was intended to do that, but my opinion is that it will not do so. 58. You are' of the: opinion that the' present organizations are not effective ? Some eif the growers have' askeel for this Bill, and they say they would be far better off if they had compulsory powers to use if the necessity arose: ?—This question of control has been tried for a ye'ar. 59. You have never tried the' e'emtrol system under statutory law ?-And 1 elei not know what woulel happem if it we're tried. 60. However, as regards the question eif exporting fruit, you say that an export h'vy of 2Jd. per case is put on at tho present time : do you not realize' that if this Control Beiard was set up it would usurp the: function eif the: present federation and provincial council and consolidate them into one Boarel —would it not be better if that were, eleme; ? I think we woulel still want our provincial council and federation, 61. The method adopted at the present time so far as the: federation is concerned, I take it, is that you meet and consider the particular questions of interest to your industry, and you agree on a certain course of action being taken, anel yeiu advise the members accordingly : would not the Control Board be in a position to do that ?— My point is that we have organizations in existence; at the present time which are capable and able to do everything that is to be done ; and if they want to be: endowed with further powers, Ido not see why that should not be done. Personally, I object to the setting-up of more eif these Boards, which means more' organization overlapping. 62. Would not this Control Board do exactly what the federation is doing at the present time ? — It would elo part of the work. 63. Anel it would have' statutory powers tei bring all the producers into line; in the: best interests

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of the industry ?—ln the case of export trade', 1 am at a loss to understand why statutory powers are required. 64. In •connection with the apples you have produced, you consider that the grade shoulel be slackened a bit in order to allow you to export those apples ?—Yes, and get a decent price for them. 65. Would yeiu not ne;e:d to have seime form of control with a view of asking the Government to relax the grading to a certain e:xtent ? No, sir; the provincial council are the: people who should attend to that, because that is their duty. Th.e:y made a, levy of 2Jd. per e:ase last year in order to Ii nance them to do that kind eif work. 66. You can quite: understand that the' Government has to protect an industry eif this sort and only allow the best quality of fruit to be exported, for the purpose of keeping the fruit industry up to a high standard, so that the growers may bo able to get the best they can out of it. In the event of Now Zealand fruit geiing em tei the market at Home: in a damaged condition and diseased, weiulel it not have the' effect eif making the: people gei eill' New Zealand fruit ? —I may say that. lam a strong believer in maintaining the standard of fruit that is being exported now as the first grade ; but my point is that we are left with a lot eif geiod e'elible fruit, such as this sample [produced], whereas this fruit is wanted in England, and we would receive a goeiel price for it; and. moreover, it weiuld not be left to glut the loe;al market. 67. Assuming the: Control Board hael Compulsory powers and had a, man stationed in London, and this kinei of apple that you have: been speaking about was allowed to be shipped, then that man e'.eiuld see that it was not abused. Supposing there: was a market for that kind of apple in different countries, anel it was sold as your best fruit, would you not want somebody tei look alter it to see that it was dealt with properly ? —The grade of the apples would be: put on the end, of the cases. 68. But once the apples were out of tho cases the grade-mark weiuld be: gone: ? —Yes. 69. That is the: whole: trouble : you must have somebody to look after the industry, otherwise it woulel deteriorate, the same as what happened in Tasmania, is that not so ? They had a dirty crop the:re:, and I would not for a moment suggest that we: shoulel bo allowed to export the kind of fruit they exported last year. 70. Therefore, so far as the export trade is concerned, it is essential that you should have: a compulsory Control Board to look after these matters in the best interests of the growers ?—I do not think so. I think we have sufficient organizations to attend to our requirements. We: do not want any more people continually adding to our expense when our problem is to endeavour tei cut them down. 71. My idea is that you will cut them down by having one: Boarel instead eif three; ? I contend that we would have to keep on the: federation and the provincial council, as well. 72. Mr. Hawken.] Have the expenses gone down in recent years or have: they genu; up ? —ln seime' respect they have gone down- for instance, so far as material is concerned there has been a little: decrease ; but those figures I gave you are em present-day values. 73. Ii you, could cut down expense's the growing of fruit woulel be: a much better industry than it is today ?—That is the problem. 74. Your e:xpensos have: gone up rather than come down in recent years—that is, for every kind of expense ?—Yes, that is so. 75. I want to put this to you —the same thing happened in connection with the dairy-produce and me:at: are you not aware that the: meat-producers have: secured a- reduction in expenses of a million and a half in two years, and that the dairy producers in insurance alone: in the' first few months save:d £70,000 ? Has it not occurred to you that the same: result might follow in the. fruit industry if it is properly organized ? If you could get such results as that, woulel you be: satisfied with the Control Board ?—But the: trouble is that the: Control Boarel woulel increase the marketing-charges; they weiulel require a very complicate machine' tei elei the work properly. It is not like; butter or wool, because fruit, being a perishable commodity, it has to bo watched daily, and 1 submit, that itis humanly impossible,, or almost so, for three: men to control the sale of a perishable article like fruit. 1 have: to beep a most diligent eye oil my fruit, anel I.repeat again that it. weiulel not be possible under any scheme for three men, unless you incur enormous expenses, to watch the fruit, to decide the right time when it should be marketed. 76. Now, if other Boards in practice have: reduceel. expenses to the; meat men and the dairy men, is there any reason to suppose that a small Boarel controlling the; export of fruit would not reduce your expenses ?—But there is no guarantee that such a Control Board woulel be; more efficient than the federation. 77. Your expenses for years past have been geiing up rather than coming down ?—Some, of the expenses have come down. Take freights, for instance : they have come down. But no Control Board coulel have brought them elown. We: are governed in our freights by Australia, If they go up in Australia they go up here, and if they go elown in Australia, they go down }]<'iv. No amount of pressure from any Board would make the: slightest difference. 78. Are. you not aware- that the. Meat Control Board makes arrangements for the: freight on meat? They may do so. There' vein have very large interests. Our interests are only small in comparison. Our freights are exactly the same; as those: of Australia'. If a reduction or an increase lakes place' there, the same: reduction or increase takess place here'. 79. But should there not be some Control Board in charge of the shipping ? Should there not be: some Control Board tei rectify any fault in connection with the: shipping? Take, for instance, that shipment, of apples you mentioned that, arrived in London in bail order? Well, I think that was because the fruit had to be sent bo Wellington and assembled in the cheese-store here. That shoulel really be a matter for the federation to go into. My point is that everything that is necessary could be done by the federation and the provincial council. I contend that they should endeavour to get a

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system of lightering the fruit at Nelson. We have an excellent equipment there:, and there is no quieter water for lightering in the whole of New Zealand. jggj 80. What you want is to have direct shipments from Nelson to London ? —Yes. ■ 4.81. Do you not think that this Control Board would have power to deal with such matters as that much better than your council or federation ? —Of course, the Control Board could do it, but it could. not do it any better than the federation could do it. The federation has a man at Home:. Why could they not send another man Home next year ? lam in favour of the federation arranging the: whole of the shipping for the Dominion. I think that the:re weiuld bo no difficulty in arranging the whole of the shipping through the federation. 82. Mr. Field.] You are; a grower ?—Yes. 83. In what other way are you concerned in the business of fruit —are you an agent eir a buyer ? ■ —I grow my own fruit and sell it myself. 84. Is that all ?—Yes. 85. Last year the Government was blamod for not bringing in a Fruit Control Bill, mainly by the Nelson fruitgrowers : why have thesy altered their minds ? -They have tried a scheme eif control this year and they are not satisfied with the results. The; majority of the growers, in my opinion, do not want to go on with it. 86. You think that tho attempt already made is a sufficient test ?—Yes. 87. That could hareily be said to be: a trial ? —The:y objected tei the control scheme since they have se:en the text of the: Bill. 88. How long has your federation been in existence ? —Roughly speaking, over ten years, I think. 89. And doing good work all the time ? —lt was rather badly handled at first, but it is doing good work now, I think. 90. If the Control Boarel is set up under this Bill do you think there would bo any necessity for the federation ? —Yes, I think so. 91. Do you think tho Control Board could take over the: whole business ? —You might give it the name of " fesdoration." 92. At present you have not the; statutory powers ? —Give the federation the statutory powers if you want to, but why call in another organization ? 93. Tho control might be; practically tho same thing as the federation but with statutory power. Is the production of apples in the Nelson District increasing or diminishing ? I should say that production is holding its own—perhaps it is increasing, although orchards have been cut out. On the other hand, the trees are getting older, and the production is increasing to a certain extent. 94. You say that some orchards have been cut out ?—Yes, that is so. 95. It is purely a question of management if an orchard succeeds or not ? —I submit that if an orchard is neglected the sooner it is cut out the better. 96. What are the seaports whore you have,your fruit stored ?—At Nelsem, Mapua, anel Motueka. 97. Have you provision there for handling the fruit ? —We have sufficient provision there to deal with considerably more fruit than we would be likeiy to e:xport for some: years to come:. 98. Tho sample apples that are on the table, did they come from there ? —Yes. 99. What was the difficulty in regard to those apples ? -The trouble was on account of the black-spot; but if you cut the skin of these apples you will see that they are sound. 100. What would be the; result if a referendum were taken among the Nelson growers in connection with this Bill? —I think they would be against it. The: people who woulel be likely to veito for the Bill are the small fruitgrowers. On a bare: majority vote it would be, possible for growers producing 50,000 oase:s to drag into the scheme, growers producing 400,000 cases. 101. What is the extent of your operations ? —I have about 70 acres. 102. Supposing it coulel be: shown to you that this .Board as proposed to bo set Up under this Bill was likely to work as efficiemtly as your federation and with less expense, woulel you not consent to it then ? —Do you refer to local control or to export control ? 103. I was really referring to both ?—Of course, the federation has nothing to do with local control. 104. Well then, with regard to e;xport control, supposing it could bo shown that tho Board could do the work as efficiently and with less expense, could it not take the place of your federation ? —I have no strong objection to export control provided that there is the; right of private sale. 105. We had an instance the other day of a grower in Nelson sending a small consignment of fruit to Wellington which brought £4 lis., and his receipts were £1 7s. : was the federation concerned, in that ? —No, the federation had nothing to do with that, it might be a Control Board's or an auctioneer's return. 106. You manage your affairs better than that ? --Yes. 107. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy.] If second-grade fruit is allowed to be exported, do you consieler the: Government guarantee should apply ?- No, I would not say that, but I would say that the Government should stipulate for first-grade fruit under the guarantee:. 108. I understand from your evidence that the export charges have increased in the last few years ? —I did not moan export charges. I said that many charge:s had increased, but, of course, on the other hand, some charges have come down. 109. J am alluding now to export, and the Bill is principally one dealing with the export of fruit. That, on the whole, is really I,he main feature eif the Bill. I have here a list of tho decreases of charges -they an: as follows: Oversea freight 1921, Bs.; 1924, 4s. Paper (per ream) —1921, 10s.; 1924,35.' Wood-wool (per ton) -1921, £45 ; 1924, £26. Cases (each)—l92l, Is. sd. ; 1924, llfd. Brokers' charges (per case) —1921, Is. 6d. ; 1924, 10|d. Nelson Council, 1921, 3d. per case ;

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federation and export, 1924, 2|ei. per case. Those were: the: decreases. Now the increases : Preoooling, 2fd. per case ; wiring, l-|d. per case. Insurance is somewhat less. Bank exchange slightly increased, but advances to growers are much more satisfactorily arranged. That is roughly the position ? —Yes. Those decreases are quite correct, and if you had had a Control Board in existence; I cannot see: a single item, barring fruit-oases, that a Board oould have brought down. 110. Do you not think it would be possible for a Control Board to reeiuce freight ? —No, not oversea freight. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : Then that is where we agree to differ. But on tho whole I oonsider that those are: approximately tho decreases and increases. A question has ariseui regarding black-spot which affects my Department and its officers, and I would like: the permission of the Committee to call Mr. Campbell, tho head of tho Department, to ask Mr. McKee a few que:stiems in this connection. 111. Mr. Campbell.] You say that fruit like this is not allowed to be exported ? —That is actually reject fruit. 112. Why is it not allowed to be exported ? —What I moan to say is this : I wont into my depot yesterday morning and they had a case there which had just come out of the cool stores from which four apples were picked out as rejects. 113. Yes, but what percentage of colour is rcepuired for Jonathan apples ?—I do not remember. I 114. What percentage of blemish, then ? I could not tell you. 115. You are giving the Committee, as a result of your statements, to understand that we have; set a very high standard for export and an unreasonable standard. You say that the:se we;re re'je:cted for black-spot ? —The majority of my fruit that I wanted to export was rejectee I lor pinprick black-spot. 116. Is there any black-spot on this fruit ? —There may not be, but the grader would take a speck for black-spot. 117. There is no black-spot on this fruit; and would it surprise you to know that practically 75 per cent, of the Jonathan apples shipped this year wore no bette:r than those ?—I consider that a very big proportion of the fruit rejected for export was equal to the best you sent away. 118. Yes, but it is necessary to know why they were rejected. There is nothing on those apples to warrant rejection. As I have said, 75 per cent, of the export was not equal to that fruit, consequently the:re is no reason for its rejection. The: graders are not responsible for what your own men do if they in their hurry throw aside fruit that would well pass for export. It is scarcely a fair thing for any one to come along and pick out fruit and say you can not send that to the, markets ? — It is quite correct that that fruit has been rejected by my own men ; but this is the point: if that were really black-spot then it would have been rejected for export. 119. We are talking about the fruit hero, and I claim that it is a misrepresentation of the standards of the class of fruit we are; allowing to go through. Fruit like those two specimens would be welcomed in the Old Country and we would be pleased to export them. L. F. Stewart examined. (No. 16.) 1. The Acting-Chairman.] Are; you speaking on behalf of your association ?—Yew. 1 have been asked to come' here: to-day to represent the: fruitgrowers of Kaukapakapa, Wainui, and adjoining districts. I regret that there arc not more of us here to-day, but unfortunately it is a very busy time: with us just now and it was impossible for more to get away. We have not had a very good opportunity of discussing this Biff. We are, in fact, a little bit out of the way, and it is only what we: see in the. papers that wo have to guide us. However, we had a copy of the Bill sent to us. The growers in the: district which I represent are mostly small growers, having from 7 or 8 acres up to 20 acres ; and so far its this Bill is concerned, the first part of it, dealing with control of fruit for export, is a matter which does not affect us, therefore we do not feel justified in passing an opinion on it. When we come to the second part of the Bill, however, which deals with the control of fruit for local consumption, we wish to have a say in the matter. I might say that we: are in rather a different position from most other growers in New Ze:aland in that we do not send any of our fruit to auction—at least, only two hundred or throe hundred cases a year. Wo soil all our fruit direct from the grower to the consumer. I think everybody will agree that that has always been advocated as one of the finest ways of disposing of fruit, to save, if possible, the middleman's profit, and that has been what we: have attempted to do. We started to do this about ten years ago, and it has been an absolute success. We are perfectly satisfied with the returns we; are getting. Some of tho smaller men, who have only two hundred or throe hundred cases a year perhaps, rely on the men who have larger orchards to dispose of their fruit through their sales, and from what we can understand, in looking at this Bill, if it comes into operation, it is going to hit us very hard indeed. In fact, we have gone to the extent of building up a business, and now we are threatened and told that we shall have to come: under that Bill, and the Board of Control will have the right to tell us how we: shall dispose of our fruit. You must understand that when we have at last got our own business, this is going to have a very serious e;fioct upon us. It might be an improvement, but I notice that those who have put the Bill forward have an outlet if the Bill is not a success—that it may be rejected later on, after a year or two. Now, that is a proof that the Government is not positively sure that the Bill is geiing to be: a success. Suppose, therefore, that they come along one season and want to take charge eif our fruit. We can have no objection, because if we obstruct the Beiard we are; liable to a fine of £50. Say they take it for one year, aid they find that the Board is not a suocess, and we have to revert back to our old system : it would mean that wc would lose our trade, and we would have to start all over again. You

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may say that we are in tho minority; but if we are in the minority, why should the minority be sacrificed for those who have not made a success of their business ? There is not anything approaching British fair play or liberty in it —at least, I fail to sec it. We arc told also by those who are promoting the Bill that they do not want to touch a man who is already emgaged in business—that is, they do not want to interfere more than is necessary; but we: want something more tangible than that. We do not want a Control Board where anybody at all might get on it. A man last se;ason from the Auckland Province, came to me and informed me that he hael fifteen hundred cases eif Dougherty apples in ceieil storage in Auckland, anel he askeel me whether I thought 1 could elispeisc ol them for him. I told him 1 thought I e:emlel. 1 named a price, which 1 forgel just for the moment, but, any way, ho saiel he was quite agreeable. It would be' necessary, however, tei put the' matter before the manager of the concern in which he was interested before he could give: me a decided answer. I met him a couple of days alter and asked him how he got on. He said he; very much regretted it but Ihe manager of the firm considered the price: too low and it weiulel be necessary to get a higher price. The end of it was that 1 agreed to get him another Is. a case, to which he- was quite agreeable. lb' saw the' manager of the firm again, and the final result was that they would not sell the fruit at all, because they considereel I might sell it in opposition to the firm. Now, I saw this same man again this season and asked him how he got on with last year's crop which had been refused me'. I asked him if he got a better price for it than that which 1 offered, anel he; told me' that he had lost money over it. There is a case where they did have a certain amount of control over that fruit anel the: man was worse off for it. I might say that we: are strongly opposed to this Bill unless some clause were inserted giving those who have already worked up their own businesses some protection, We feel that we: are justified in asking for this, and we hope to get favourable consideration in that respect. 2. Mr. Field.] Your market is in Auckland? —It is, in fact, all through the; North Island. 3. You have nothing to say em the: subject of export control ? No. 4. You are right out against local control ?—Yes. 5. What expenditure have you been put to in organizing your market ?-- We have wen-keel up our trade, and gone in for certain kinds of apple:s suitable for our trade and which weiuld not lie suitable: if the Control Board took control. 6. You have no buildings or anything of that sort in Auckland ?--No. It is the' extra charges that mount up. 7. Do you sell direct to the: retailor ? —Yes, and to storekeepers. 8. Y'ou have no depots established ?—No. We soil direct to the consumer. 9. Mr. Corrigan.] What is your occupation ?■—Orchardist. 10. Fruitgrowing only ? —No, I do a little grazing as well. 11. Do you think it is the, intention of this Control Boarel, if it is set up, to interfere with the profitable markets which you have already? —It is impossible for me: tei say. 1 dei not know who is going to be on the Control Board at the present time, but 1 say that if the Control Bill is sincere there is no reason why a clause: should not be inserted in the Bill to the: e:ffee:t that those who have' established their own trade for the last two or three years should have the light tei continue. 12. Do you not understand that this Control Boarel will be' made up of men whom you will help to put on it yourself? —Yes; but e;onsider the case I brought up just neiw that man was hardly acting fairly, in my opinion. i3. Was he a grower ? —1 believe he is a grower, but lam not sure. Now, say that man was put em, he: would not be favourable: to us ; and there is no reasem that 1 know why he' shoulel not be put on. 14. Do you not see' that it is provided in the Bill that unless a majority of the' orchardists in the: province want control they need not have: it : there: is your safety clause ? 1 quite understanel that ; but it might be carrieel — and is it. a just thing that those, men who have established and workeel the business up should be sacrificed for those who are not making a success eif things ? 15. 1 was trying to look at it from a broader point of vie'w. This is the' way it appears tei me : There are a number of growers, say, in North Auckland, anel things are going alemg all right- they are' quite satisfied. We'll, then, you have got the right of saying whether you are' geiing to have: control or not : is it likely, if everything is going on all right, that you are' going to vote, tei alter that ? Do you want any safer clause than that ?- -1 am only speaking for one district. 16. We will just assume that the conditions are similar to those' in other districts?—You must understand that we have to make every post a winning-post. Mr. Corrigan :] Ye:s, all producers have to do that. 17. Mr. Forbes.] Have you an association up there ? —Ye:s, we have just formed one'. 18. How many orchardists are there ?—About fifte:en or twenty. 19. What is the acreage ( Ido not kneiw exactly: it may be 200 acres. 20. What do you grow principally—apples ?—Yes. We also grow plums, peaches, &c. 21. Taking it altogether, you are' doing all right ? Yes, In (hat district there are a lot of people' who are small orchardists, anel they also go in for dairying, cattle, &C Still, they produce a certain amount of fruit every year. 22. Do you belong to the Auckland Fruitgrower's Asseiciatiem ?—No. 23. We had evidence from Mr. Izard, president eif the Auckland fruitgrowers' Association, thai they represented two theiusand growers, and they were in favour ol the' Bill ?- We were mil; included in that district. I believe Port Alborb was written to, but there has been no reply from them at all. 21. Yeiu are: quite satisfied, then, with existing arrangements ?■ Yes. We contend that we have worked up our trade' and that we arc entitled tei be protected. 25. You think that the provision in the Bill in connection with local control that a vote be taken is not sufficient? —Yes; we might be; swamped by Auckland. 26. You represent only two districts —Wainui and Kaukapakapa ?- Yes.

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RALPH PayntEß examined. (No. 17.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your name ? Ralph Paynter, Havelock Road, Hastings. 2. Do you wish to make a statement? —Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, 1 am here this morning to represent the Hawke's Bay Fruitgrowers' Association. It is the; first time that Hawke's Bay has had an opportunity of speaking on this Bill —it has been difficult for any one to get down. In opening T weiuld like to say that my association has a membership of about 330 — between 330 and 340. Our approximate output from the district is in the, vieinity of 300,000 bushels of pip-fruits, anel wo are. on the increase ; and, altheiugh our acreage is increasing slowly, our output is increasing so as to give- an increase in the future rather rapidly. \n connection with Part lof this Bill, or in connection with the whole of the Bill, Mr. Chairman, we called a meeting of growers in the district em the 20th August to discuss this Bill, and we' went into it fairly fully, and so far as Part I of the Bill is concerned we raise no objection to it. We would, however, suggest one or two alterations eir amendments. We have not been very big in the export traele in the' past. In 1922 we exported in the vicinity of thirteen thousanel, in 1923 in the vicinity eif ten thousand, in 1924, the' season just passed, only just over a t housand cases. You will notice, by those figures that there has been a decrease. There was a reason for it. In 1922 a portion of the district was struck by a disastrous hailstorm, which made it impossible to export fruit from that portion of the' district, and as a result of the storm that same portion of the district last year had a very light crop. Therefore we did not have sufficient to export—we considered it our duty to supply the local demand first and therefore our export figures were very, very low at this season ; but we are geiing tei jump up considerably in the future. In the past, Mr. Chairman anel gentlemen, we have had a measure of control of the export through the fruitgrowers' federation, and so far as Hawke's Bay is ooncerned we have been satisfied with the way the' federation has handled that business ; but we, think that probably the thing can be improved by an Export Control Boarel being set up, and therefore we arc out to support this export-control measure. I said just now that there: were one eir two —one clause: in particular—in that Export Control Bill that we take exception to. It is in Part lof the Bill, section 3, subclause (3) (b) : " One shall be elected by the, producers who are occupiers of orchards situated in the Provincial Districts of Hawke's Bay, Weiliugton, anel Marlborough." We object to being linked up with a South Island Province. We: object on the ground, sir, that it is quite possible, for Marlborough to have a preponderance of votes ; if she had a preponderance eif votes over Hawke's Bay and the: Weilington Districts, she would put her man on to the Control Boarel. And what deies that mean ? It means that the South Island would have two representatives for Nelson, one for Marlborough, and one, for Canterbury and Otago —that is to say, the South Islanel woulel have four ■representatives, whilst the North Islanel would have only one —the: Auckland representative. We maintain that that is not a fair representation ; anel we: think it is emly a. fair thing to Hawke's Bay to cut out Marlborough from Hawke's Bay anel Wellington. We are quite, prepared lei I e joined up with Wellington, anel we are also prepared to embrace, Poverty Bay—Poverty Bay is asking to be included in Hawke's Bay. Then we come down tei section 6, under the heading "Control of Fruit intenderl for Export." Subclause (3) of this section says : " Notice by the Board of its intention to assume control eif any fruit, may be' given either by service em the owner of any such fruit or . . . " &c. It seems, gentlemen, that this is not at all. clear :at the heading " intended for export," anel then, in subclause' (3), leiwer deiwn, it says " any fruit." The: growers in Hawke's Bay are afraid the' Control Board may come: into one province and into one orchard and say " I want a proportion of your fruit for export. 1 demand a proportion of that fruit for export." T think, gentlemen, that is all I have to say in connection with export control. Now we come down to Part II of the Bill, which deals with the local control. We, as a district, sir, are out to support the principle of control for the local marke-ts. We' want, to make our position quite clear. At the' present time we do not wish local control in our district; but we arc. not going to aeiopt a dog-in-the-manger attitude and say that any either district that wants it shall not have: it ; anel therefore we are prepared to support the principle, of control. We are rather favourably situated, Mr. Chairman anel gentlemen, on account of our geographical position, for distributing fruit to the local marke:ts right throughout the North Island. It is nothing that we; shoulel praise: ourselves for ; but one of the gentlemen who gave evidence this morning was inclined to blame Hawke's Bay and other districts that are served with a railway : it is that district's unfortunate position not tei be- served by a railway, but we: cannot help that. We have: at the- present time: men handling our fruit in the district on the local market, and they are giving us satisfaction. Our facilities are gooel ; the people that we have operating there are handling big line's of stuff. We have three com panics operating there—one is a growers' company, and the others are semi-private ; but then, apart from that, we have the: Auckland merchants coming into our district every year for a big proportion eif fruit, probably ranging anything from 30,000 to 60,000 bushels. Therefore, at the present time', we do not want local control. Then, in connection with one or two clauses in this Local Control Bill, subclause (7) eif section 14 provides for a-poll to be taken not later than the: 30th November of this year. Weil, sir, we maintain that it is a waste of time and money to ask for a, poll if a district does not require it. Therefore our growers, in discussing this, suggested that instead eif having subclause (7), a, provision similar to this should be: included : " On application of not less than 10 per cent, of growers in any one district, the Minister may cause- a poll to be taken, such poll to be: taken by post." We think it is waste of time to take a poll in every district at the present time. Then, in section 15, subclause (1), it is provided that " the Minister may at any time anel from time; to time: thereafter . . . cause another poll to be, taken on the same: proposal." Suppose a poll is taken and the proposal is rejected, the Minister may at any time cause another poll to be; taken ; and yet, when it comes to the disestablishment eif the Beiard, in section 20, subclauses (1), (2), anil (3), it is provided that a further poll shall not be taken within three years after the date of the first poll. That means that if the growers are unfortunate enough, after three years, to get 50 per cent, to vote against it, they cannot have another poll, taken for a further three years ; anel yet the establishment

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[e. payntee.

of the Board of Control can be effected at any time. We maintain that the same thing should apply to the disestablishment of the. Board. Then, lastly, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, there was a point made by our growers in connection with the operations of the Local Control Board. In the event of a Local Control Boarel being set up in any one: district, it assumes absolute control of the fruit. Mind you, this Local Control Board is simply handling fruit for local consumption. Where will the Export Control Board get its fruit from unless it has power over the Local Control Board ? I think that is all I have, to say, Mr. Chairman. 3. Mr. Corrigan.] Do you think there would be, a duplication between the local control and the Dominion control in regard to getting fruit ? —Well, that, of course;, remains with the Boards after they are set up. 4. Do you think that Marlborough and Nelson should, have a combined representation ? —Nelson anel Marlborough are closely associated, and it seems more: reasonable to combine, Marlborough with Nelson than to link up Marlborough with a North Island district. 5. You realize that it is necessary to export some fruit from New Zealand to prevent a glut in the market ?—I do. (i. Did it e:ver occur to the fruitgrowers, when considering tho provisions relating to export, that it was really the Control Board that woulel control the exportable surplus ? They would, not ask to export fruit if the Dominion required the whole of the: production for that year? —No, I should not think so. 7. You realize, of course, that the Board is a Board, consisting of producers, and would look after the best interests of the industry ? —Yes ; my point was that if the, Local Control Board was set up in any one district it would have no need to assume absolute control if the Export Control Board could get its fruit from, that particular district. 8. It would be, both, unless there was a surplus of fruit that they wanted to export ?—Yes, but would the Local Control Board have the power tei hand over the exportable surplus to the Export Control Board ? -There is no provision for it in the Bill. 9. You quite realize that the local growers have the right tei say whether they will come in for control or not ? —That is so, for the, local control. 10. Well, then, if there was a surplus of fruit in the Dominion, a certain amount of fruit would have to be exported from the district, and arrangements would be made for export, it woulel be in the growers' own hands ? —But, according to the powers given them in this Bill, the; Local Control Board have no power to dispose of fruit unless for local consumption. 11. But the exportable surplus would be handed over to the Export Control Board?—Yes; if they have that power, that will satisfy Hawke's Bay. 12. The same arrangements obtain in connection with dairy control. We, do not bother about control of the leie:a,l supply at all ; when there is a surplus, application is made to the-Control Board for the right to export ? -If this power is in the: Bill, that is satisfactory. Walter Askin Tate examined. (No. 18.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your name ?—Walter Askin Tate, of Greytown. 2. Do yeiu wish to make a statement ? —I represented Wellington Province at tho last Fruit Conference. In the Wellington Province we have .1,323 orchard-tax payers. We have only three associations, consisting of fifty members, so that my representation is not a fair representation of the number of orchard-tax payers : I would like you to note that. In this province wo come third in the total number of orchard-tax payers in New Zealand, sixth in acreage, and third in the number of cases exported. We only export in the Wairarapa ; the rest of the orchardists in our province are all small men who go in for private trading. First of all, wo are in. favour of export control, because we recognize that without control of the export the position is hopeless : that is our opinion. We favour the principle eif local control, but we are not prepared to vote for it at the present time, because we elo not know enough about it. We are going to sit on the fence and see how Nelson gets along. The reason is that Wedington is the dumping-ground of all the bad fruit of New Zealand : that goes without saying. I die! not tell you that lam a grower. I had ten thousand cases of apples and about 4-0 or 50 tons of cherries last year. lam not a private trader myself, but lam representing those who are, and we consider that the right of private trading should bo safeguarded in the Bill —for this reason : Take tho growers who are around Wanganui, Palmerston North, and Masterton ; they built up a trade: by selling direct to the shopkeepers and to tho consumer without any outside interference. We stand for private trading, and by " private trading " we mean selling direct from the orchard to the shop or to the private consumer —fruit desired by the buyer, not graded according to standards —at prices arranged between the orchardist and the buyer. Now, wo stand by that, because most of these greiwers have no means eif graeling properly —they have not got to that stage. Sometimes they arc making more money than we feilows who are in a big way and have to export. There are one or two things in the Bill on which I, should like: to s|ie:ak. Hawke's Bay has already drawn attention to the representation, and we agree with what has be:e;n said on that point. We: think it would bo bettor for Marlborough, tei be attached to the South Island, and to combine Wellington, Hawke's Bay, and Poverty Bay. We think it would be a fair representation for the North Island. With regard to local control, the previous speaker drew attention to the provisions of sub-clause (7) of section 14, according tei which a, poll must lie taken not later than the 30th November of this year. We agree with what was saiel on this subject, For instance, in this Wellington Province: wo do not think it would bo

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necessary to take: a poll unless the orchardists asked for it. There is another point —a most important point to the Wellington Province —and that is the union of Local Control Boards. To us the only advantage: eif local control would be the controlling of the quantity of fruit that comes into our province from Nelson ; anel according to the. constitution of the Boards set up under section 19, subclause (2), the Boarel of the: combined districts would consist of five: members. How would you arrive at the five ? If, for instance, Nelson, which has the largest quantity of fruit, were to have three members anel Wellington had two, there woulel be no use in sotting up a Board, because you would bo outnumbered before you had any business at all. We are out to help Nelson in every way, because we think that, if Nelson succeeds the rest of New Zealand succeeds —the, same in export, the same: in control. I think, gentlemen, that is all I have to say. 3. Mr. Langstone. \ You saiel that Wellington is the dumping-ground for poor fruit ? ; —That is so. As a matter of fact we have overproduction ; the whole apple-producing world is overproducing ; and in the meantime, while the markets are be:ing rectified, the grower is going to the wall. In the Wellington Province there is not any particular control ; tho fruit is sent indiscriminately to the different agencies throughout the wheilc province, anel that is what we: are: up against. lam one of the biggest growers, and if 1 cannot sell the fruit in the Wellington Province I send it on to Auckland. Wellington is one of the most disorganized provinces in the: wheile of New Zealand. 4. While: yeiu are sending the fruit to Auckland, there are Auckland growers sending fruit elown to your own district ? - -That is so. 5. Dei you think that by having a committee eif men Who understand the business, like yourself, in certain districts, as appointed by the Board, bettor methoels of distribution could be: arranged, so that the: fruit would not be (lumped in Wellington or other parts of New Zealand, and the: supply of fruit so arranged that it would meet the: demand ? —Yes, 1 elo. I am greatly in favour eif that. For instance, we have no advertising. At present we, arc not a fruit-e:ating people —there; is no doubt whatever about that; anel wo are; not taking the proper steps to push our fruit anel tei increase our local consumption. There is no organization for this purpose in the whole of Now Zealand, and that is a, weak spot. Supposing you wanted to push the sale for the; whole eif New Zealanel: you only propose joint control in the different provinces—there is no special organization to give: it that, push ; it comes down to the inelividual effort of each province. 6. Are; you in favour of the big grower, like yourself, sinking his individual interests for the greater gooel of the industry ?—Yes, I am ; but I am speaking for the orchardists of the province who go in feir private traeling. They want, to see that their right of private trading is protected ; and I think it is only fair, because more fruit is sole! to the consumer than woulel be the case, otherwise. If you restrict these channels you will prevent tho consumer buying a cheaper eiass of fruit. 7. Do you think it would be better for the health of people generally if they were able to obtain quantities of cheap fruit ? —Certainly so ; and that is where they get it —from the private trader. Of course, it is a cheaper class of fruit—fruit that would not go on the open market. Standardize as much as you can for the open market, and the private trader- still comes under the restrictions of the law and. the regulations of the Department of Horticulture. You are still under these restrictions anel regulations ; the fruit has to be sold subject to these conditions. Yeiu ceiuld not, for instance, sell black-spot, but you coulel still soil stuff that could not be sold on the open market. That is understood, because if you are going to cut down the smaller man, that is not a fair thing. 8. With regard to the proposed charge of 3d. per case as levy, do you think you woulel. be compensated by reason of the better shipment and better marketing that would be obtained as a result of control ? —Yes, I do. 9. Instead of adding to tho cost it will tend to reduce it ?—lt must. It is only by combination in union with other Boards that we can hope to reach any reduction, in cost. Reduction in ceist in the orchard itself will have: to bo left to the individual grower, but the cost of marketing can only be reeluced by control combination. There is nothing else for it. 10. Mr. Forbes.] Whore is your orchard ? —ln Grcytown —about 45 acres. I I. Would you say that the industry is prosperous ? —No, I would not call it prosperous, and I will tell you why. Look at these figures: Bs. 4d. average per case four years ago, 7s. Id. the next year, 3s. Id. last year, and I cannot tell you what it will be this year. 12. Is the quality just as good? Quality just as good. Overproduction is probably the cause eif the trouble:. 13. That applies to your district? —Yes. 1 am not a private trader, but, most of those who are carrying on private trade have made gooel money. 14. Yeiu depend, upon public auction ?—And also expoit. 15. What do you get out of export ? Do you think it better than the: lei. a pound Government guarantee ? —lf I had that I weiuld be quite satisfied. I woulel be: quite satisfied if I got Id. a pound. Anel we spend more money in labour than you elo in other farming pursuits. 16. You agree with local control : seeing that, the business has been built up by the energy of the private grower, do you not think that woulel be lost under control ? —There ought, to be: a clause: in the Bill protecting those orchardists who go in for private trading. Mr. Forbes : That answers my question. 17. The Chairman.] You said you were satisfied with the lei. a pound Government guarantee: what dei you me:an to infer by that ?—What I mean is that if I obtained the equal of tho Government guarantee I would be satisfied. Supposing the guarantee were: not, there: and T could get eeptal to it, 1 e:emld make: my business pay and cemlel still export. I woulel expect my export to pay for expenses and my profit out of seconds.

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Friday, 12th September, 1924. Stuart Marshall examined. (No. 19.) 1. The Acting-Chairman.] You reside at Rapaura, in the Marlborough District, do you not ?—Yes. 2. Whom do you represent ?—I represent the fruitgrowers' association in my district. Our organization is made up eif practically all the large, fruitgrowers in the district. 1 may say that there: are quite a number eif small growers that we do not represent. These small growers are people, for the most part, with small holdings, and they are interested mostly in private trading, which they finel quite lucrative', and there is very little expense entailed. The Marlborough Fruitgrowers' Association is in favour of export and local control. So far as export control is concerned we fe:e:l that it is going to be the saviour of the inelustry absolutely, and any falling-away of the export trade woulel seriously affect the local market in New Zealanel. This year there has been, 1 think, slightly under the average crop right throughout New Zealanel, due: to the fact that we had a drought and adverse conditions. Next year it is quite possible that the three hundred thousand cases likely to be exported under the guarantee will not relieve the local markets sufficiently to prevent the usual slumps. As regards the representation proposed in the Bill, my association is not quite satisfied as to that. We are linked up with Hawke;'s Bay anel Wellington, and, although this doe* not seem to be a satisfactory arrangement, wo are, unfortunately, not able; to suggest anything better. The only arrangement that woulel be satisfactory would be: to give every district a representative on the Board ; but the Board seems to be big enough already. However, we might probably be, able to work in with Neison, being more closely situated. As regards the local control, the only opposition we: would expect would be from tho small growers, although I elo not think any Local Control Boarel would interfere with their trade in any way. In the event of the Local Control Boarel being formed these people would still ge:t gooel money and make a moderate living off, say, eight hundred or one thousand cases of fruit, and they will still have that trade: left to them. I may say that the big growers are beginning to see that it is epiite: a, payable: business- that is, the direot-to-consumer trade—because there are not marketingcosts, and a great many of them in the district are: trying to get riei of a certain proportion of their croji in that way. I may say, speaking for myself, that if I were to receive from 3s. 6d. to 4s. per dump case, orohard-run grade:, which is below what they get over there for their fruit, it woulel pay me very handsomely today, and it would be more than I could expect by exporting the: fruit, with the additional expense this entails. 3. Mr. Forbes.] I take it that your interests are more closely identified with those of Nelson than with those of Hawke's Bay and Wellington ?—They are, of course ; anel in saying that I am not speaking for tho growers, but that is my own personal opinion. However, there, would be' only two representatives allotteel to tho two provinces, and it would be unfair for Marlborough to have one of them. 4. If you were included in the province you woulel have your vote —Nelson would elect the man for the. district, but you woulel have; your votes in saying who that man was to bo ?—There is really nothing to stop it working satisfactorily. 5. It seems extraordinary to me that you do not know why you we're linked up with Hawke's Bay anel Wellington ?—lt was a question of keeping down the number of representatives on the Board, and that was the only way in which it e:ould be done, apparently. 6. Why was not your district joined up with the; Nelson District, ? —No doubt from a geographical point of view it would have been better. 7. You have the same conelitions as Nelson to contend with, have you not ? —Yes. 8. Supposing your district was put in with Nelson, do yeiu not think that would be. more satisfactory ?—-My opinion is that it would be more satisfactory. 9. In connection with, the question of local control, have you had any experience of it —that is, control of your fruit loe:ally ?- No, we: have hael no experience. 10. You do not know how it would work ? —No. We can see that it would be more likely to be satisfactory on account of the Control Boarel having the say in regarel tc exports. 11. You exporc your fruit in the Marlborough District ? —Ye:s. The only thing that is stimulating the export trade is the Government guarantee, and if the Government guarantee were withdrawn the growers would not have: confidence to export, and consequently the amount would become negligible. We are in favour of the Boarel being set up as soon as possible in order that we may be able to work " on our own " should tho assistance of the Government guarantee be withdrawn. 12. Mr. Corrigan.] Do you not think that the reason why your district is included in tho Hawke's Bay and Wedington Districts is on account of the production basis ? —I think it was. 13. You cannot see any reason why you should not be included in the representation along with Nelson? —No; we would be: in a much better position geographically tei work in with Neison than with the districts mentioned in the Bill. 14. Your conditions are the same as those existing in Neison, are they not ? —Yes. 15. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] Dei you not realize that Marlborough is more likely to be swamped by Nelson than woulel be the case if it. were linked up with Hawke's Bay anel Wellington ?—Yes, it is going to be awkward both ways. I do not think that one; scheme is more advantageous than the other'. 16. However, your association is not much concerneel on that point ? —We are easy about it. 17. The whole; idea is to be as fair as possible about the: matter ; and, moreover, we did not want to overburden the Board by having too large a number of representatives on it ?—Yes. 18. The Acting-Chairman.] Do you not know that formerly Marlborough worked in with Neison in connection with the marketing of fruit ? —1 did not know, sir. 19. Did you not he:ar of tho N.D.F. ?—Yes, I believe 1 did. 20. Marlborough was in with Neison to a certain extent in connection with the: marketing of fruit ? —I believe I have heard about it now that you have mentioned it.

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Frederick George Duncan examined. (No. 20.) 1. The Acting-Chairman.] Whom elo yeiu represent?—l am managing-director of the Sunnyvale Orchard (Limited), anel I am also a bona fide fruitgrower in my own right to the: extent eif seime 60 acres. I also represent the: Benholm Orchard. Company, of 37 acres. Well, gentlemen, wo are totally opposed to the Control Bill, and to control as set out therein. Of the total quantity eif fruit exported from Otago this year, twenty-four thousanel cases were shipped from the immediate vicinity eif the orchards where I come from. 2. Dei you moan, exported overseas ?—Yes, sir. I may say that I personally exported from Fruitvale, my own orchard, and Sunnyvale Orchard, 5,954 cases, and with the Benholm contribution, 6,924 cases. I shipped tei London, South America, and Honolulu. 3. Mr. Forbes.] Under the guarantee?—To South America and England under the guarantee. The: position with regard to control and its provisions therein as set out in the Bill are already dealt with by the: regulations anel workings of the Agriculture: Department uneler Mr, Campbell. At this stage: may I say that I am somewhat at a disadvantage in that we: have really not heard any evidence in support of the Bill, although I understand that evidence; is to be calh:el in connection with the supporting of the: Bill by witnesses. 1. The, Acting-Chairman.] We have already hael evidence in that direction, anel. we just had a witness this morning ? —lt was rather unfortunate that I was not present. It may bo that there are people who are personally interested in the: Control Beiard being set up, and I submit that their evidence should bo heard first, because to my mind their evidence may bo so conclusive and constructive as to show others of us who are against the; Bill where: we: are: wrong. Our main contention, however, with regard to tho Bill is that it is teiei comprehensive, anel that the: powers that are being asked for in the Bill with regard to the controlling of the industry throughout Ne:w Zealand are too comprehensive altogether, and it is not humanly feasible: tei carry them out. 1 have not met anyboely in connection with the fruit inelustry who has the: capacity to control the position. However, Otago is absolutely against it, and I would like: to mentiem feir the benefit of the: members of the Committee who have not been to Otago that we are a very scattered area, and it is .not possible' feu us to have community packing-sheds. I believe that if it were possible tei have community packing-sheds it woulel be the right thing, but, as I say, it is not possible with us, because the; eirchards are scattered. In my own case, my two properties are ten miles apart, and in consequence of that fact the- fruitgrowers have: to have; sheds of their own. Now, so far as the packing and grading is concerned, no Control Board coulel deal with that work. If, however, it were agreed to it would mean that a special staff of officers would be required, and the difficulty would be that you coulel not get a uniform system eif grading so far as theise officers were, concerted. At the; present time the officers of the Department render us excellent service, and go out of their way to help us along in every way they can : that has been our experience'. Well, sir, 95 per cent, of the growers and exporters in the: Otago District are against the Bill. 5. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] Are yeiu quite sure that 95 per cent, eif the: growers are against the Bill ? -Yes. 6. Weiuld you be surprised to learn that you are: wrong ? —Well, if you put it that way I will say that 98 per cent, are against it, because: of the men who are in favour of it I happen to know their names, and so long as you mention them and give me an opportunity to reply, 1 will be quite satisfied, Tho position with regard tei the: Bill is this : that until practically a fortnight or three weeks ago we had no idea what was contained in the Bill. We had heard, ami it hael been represented tei us, that this Bill was absolutely necessary for the benefit of the Nelson growers ; in fact, a paid official in the service of some eif the: Nelson people, in tho person eif Mr. Allan, came to Otago and represented that the fruitgrowers in Nelson were, unanimously in favour of the Bill. Mr. Allan—l am seirry to have to bring this in, but T must do so because Mr. Allan will be giving his evidence towards the: end of the sittings of the Committee, anel I will not have an opportunity of refuting what he says in this particular —elid not receive support at all, but only a sympathetic hearing, in the: Otago District. 7. The Acting-Chairman] I would like to point out tei you that the Committee has nothing to do with the arrangement of witnesses ?—I take it, sir, that in that case; I should not have been called until such time as Mr. Allan, Mr. Brash, and the other paid officials in the federation hael given their evidence in connection with this Bill. 8. You saiel that you die! not wish to give evidence: until the, following Wednesday, and that was convenient to the Committee ? —Dr. Reakes was kind enough to advise me that my evidence would be taken on this Wednesday, and I had no other alternative:. 9. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] That appeared to be suitable to me as well as the: Committee?' —However, Mr. Allan came, to Otago and made certain representations on behalf of Nelson, and any resolutions which were carried were sympathetic resolutions as a result of his doleful story as to the fruitgrowers' position in Nelson, which we did not doubt for a moment. As a matter eif fact, we pointed out there could not, be any sentiment in business, and sei far as Otago was concerned we, have our own difficulties tei contend with, and lam sorry to say they are many. Howesver, we: only ask to be left alone to attend to our own business and not to be, controlled as is desireel. We; have: an organization in the provincial council, and it is giving every satisfaction. With regard to local control, we are entirely against that; and I put it to yeiu, gentlemen, that there is nobody who can control the position so far as fruit-ripening is concerned, and when it should be picked, better than the fruitgrower himself. Sei far as the desire of assisting the growers is concerned, if it wejv, possible: for a system to be brought in which would regulate the, price from the: grower's point eif view, that undoubtedly weiulel be: to the advantage of the growers ; but, sir, even the levelling of prices cannot control the ripening of the fruit, and consequently as the fruit ripens it must be hanelled at once. I submit that tho Control Board handling the whole of the fruit would not be able to prevent it

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from ripening- any more than the fruitgrowers are able to do; and the difficulty is that unless the fruit is picked at the right time it would perish —it would be bound to perish—and the growers would have no remedy against the no doubt honest intentions of the, parties concerned, but intentions, nevertheless, which thoy are not capable of carrying out. Now, gentlemen, there, is no analogy as between meat, butter, and fruit, because in the case of the dairyman he sends his milk daily into the market and receives his monthly returns and his cheque. I suggest to you in all seriousness that the fruitgrower works for twelve months and only gets one sale in the year ; and the reason why he docs not get more than one sale in the year is because he cannot sell the whole, of his output when it is ready. So far as the geographical position altering the quality of the fruit is concerned, I say that we cannot grow finer grades' of apples than what they do in Nelson. I am sure of that; but the, only difference, is that our fruit is firmer in quality than the Nelson fruit. As I say, our grade is not superior to the NelsOn fruit, although we have certain varieties that we. grow which they cannot grow in Nelson. J may say that I have looked at this matter from all sides, and 1 fail to see how any one in his sound senses could suggest that he could control the position and. even up the market of different grades of produce, of the. same class coming into his hands. I suggest, sir, that there is no difference as between fruit and any other produce —no difference between them. There is no difference between the handling of fruit than what there is in an ordinary business ; and if the, Government should decide that a Board is necessary for the fruit industry—as they have done- it almost appears to be logical that they should take, into consideration every business proposition throughout the country. Supposing I have so looked after my affairs as to be able to put on the market a first-grade article, and my neighbour, through want of interest or some other cause, turns out an inferior article, it means that I have to pay for that. That seems to me to be against the general principles of success anywhete. I do not think there is any difference between that ,and the man who has sheep on country infested with rabbits ; and in further support of what T say I can quote the case of Mr. P , who brought his flock up from eight thousand to twenty-two thousand. He looked after his place, and received top prices on the market for his wool ; but the adjoining place is under the control of the Government, and that country is absolutely rabbit-infested, and, it would be interesting to learn how much their flocks have gone up. 10. What property are you alluding to now ?— Teviot. However, there is no difference between wool and anything else, and consequently, that being the case, it really resolves itself into a question that, while, we desire to help the Government in every way with regard to the guarantee, they— I I. The Government has helped the people, but the people have not; helped the Government so far as the guarantee is concerned ?—So far as the guarantee is concerned, I quite realize that the Government is entitled to say " Are you not going to give us some security ? " But to do that surely it does not need such a drastic Bill as we have here. Now I will refer to some fruit shipped this year, and I will refer to the report of Mr. Attwood, in London, on that fruit, in which ho says that a certain line arrived Home in very bad order, and which goes to show that in the different fruitgrowing districts the variations in climatic conditions are such as to affect the fruit very considerably. This is what he says :" We have taken a record of a large number of cases. A big line of Jonathans was particularly troublesome. Case after case, of the larger sizes, 96's and 100's, with scarcely a sound apple in the box." Now, can you suggest for a moment that any Control Board could help that position ? Then there is this point to be considered : In all those associations and Boards the men who obtain positions on those associations and Boards very often receive high remunerations, and they seem to forget that tiny are the servants of the people who are paying them, and they also fail to supply the information that it is necessary the people who are paying them should receive, and which they are entitled to receive. I would like, however, to say here that in Otago we are very satisfied with Mr. Napier. Mr. Napier has always been quite willing to supply all the information wo require. We get all the information we want in Otago from our provincial council, and consequently we are quite satisfied with its services. Information generally is not given out as it should be. J may say that I am connected with other businesses as well as the fruit business, and the conclusion 1 have come to is that the whole of the present position in regard to financial troubles in New Zealand has been aggravated by the withholding of information which ought to be given out. Now, I want to say this, sir : that tho only information we have received in regard to the Bill we have received from Mr. Allan. lam sorry to have to mention his name, and Ido not do so unkindly ; but the only evidence we have received in connection with the Bill we. have received from him. Now, Mr. Allan came to Otago and told us that the idea of getting control was to get national control of the fruit, and that Nelson considered that every province would agree to national control; and he stated that the Control Board was only to be a trading company. Well, we find now that this Board is not to be merely a trading company. lam of opinion that all that is required is that the federation should be allowed. to carry on the good work that it has done during the past twelve months. Mr. Allan also stated that there were four points which would, be kept in view, and these four points were—(l) Standardization ; (2) proper distribution of the fruit; (3) the system of selling —that the, brokers must sell at a fixed price,; and (4) selling by advertising. Ido not wish to enlarge upon the first three points, because you have already had evidence in connection with them ; but 1 would like, to say something about the advertising, because, Mr. Allan said that advertising would be greatly used, and suggested advertising on the trams throughout New Zealand. Now, I may say that lam connected with a firm that has spent thousands of pounds on advertising, and we have found that tramway and similar advertising to a, great extent has simply been a case of throwing away money. In this matter it is not advertising that is wanted so much as salesmanship. In Dunedin we have a co-operative society which gives us very good results, and I believe that if Nelson had a similar co-operative society it would greatly solve their difficulties. I would now like to refer to some of the evidence which has been given. I would

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like to refer to some of the evidenoe given by Mr. Izard, of Auokland. Mr. Izarel, I understand, is a director of the federation. In his evidenoe he' spoke' about Auckland being unanimously in favour of the Bill; but you have hael some evidenoe sine;e then about Auckland being against the Bill. Weil, he stated, amongst other things, that from ten thousand to fifteen thousand, cases were annually exported to the: Honolulu market from Auckland. Weil, gentlemen, I will give yeiu the figure's: In 1921 there were 3,580 oases shipped ; in 1922, 3,280 ; in 1923, 3,900 ; and in 1924, 2,176 cases, 12. What about the four years prior to that ? During the four years prior to that there were, neit any at all shipped. Now, of those shipments in 1922 1 shipped 400 cases, and in 1924 I shipped tho whole of the cases. 13. From Auckland ? —Yes. Now I will give you my experience in shipping to Honolulu this year. They arranged with me tei ship 3,000 cases —three shipments of 1,000 each—but I could only send altogether 2,176, because: eif the railway strike:. Now, my first two shipments brought good prices. Those shipments were much beiow the number of cases arranged for, owing to the railway strike ; but the last shipment was 1,000 e'.ases, and that shipment did not realize, good juices. Now they have written and told mo that if I had sent only 750 cases instead of the 1,000 the' prices realized wemld have been very mueih better —that tho other 250 cases spoilt the: market. Neiw, gentlemen, that is the peisition with regard to the Honolulu market. It is a very limited market. Out of the total number of case:s shipped to that market-namely, 12,936 cases—l personally shipped 2,576; and the whole of the balanoe, every single: case, came out of the: Ne:lson District. And yet Mr. Izard comes here: and says that they have boon exporting to the: Honolulu market for the past four years. This ye:ar there were only 700 cases shipped out of Aucklanel 11. Tei Honolulu or to the Home market ?—To the Home: market. I have: given you the figures for the Hemolulu shipments. There were: only 700 cases shipped out eif Auokland last year, and thevy were snipped tei the. Home market. Then Mr. Izard also stated that there we're two thousand grower's in Auckland. Well, what eiei we' find ? We: find that there are: 994 orchards registered, of under 8 ae;re:s. They are what you might call small growers —growers of strawberries and small truck. And then there are; 192 orchards of .8 acres and over —and those are: eiiiedy apple-growers. My information is obtained from the Agriculture: Department, and therefore; I suppose it is correct. Then, included in the:se: are: inen who grow citrus fruits. Now, that area extends right from Tamaki as far as Whangarei. J think that is conclusive proof, gentlemen, as to whether or not Mr. Izard was right. Now, Hemeilulu only wants southern apple's, because of the texture. And when I say " southern apples " I me;an Nelson and Otago apples. They only want those apple's because the texture, is right. And therefore, if that is the case, those apples are wanted because the buyers recognize that they are, a better selling fruit from their point eif view. And if that is so, why should we bo in the position of being placed tei a, certain extent under the control of the two thousand growers in Auckland- according to Mr. Izard—who are not interested in the business at all ? They cannot be: so. Their climatic conditions make it impossible. Now, sir, I have just a few words tei say with regard to the; Bill itself. There are some things in it that I consider, if it is gone on with, should receive attention, and one of them is the question of the representation of the: Government on the: Board. There are to be two members appointed to represent the Government. The; Bill says, " Twei persons (heroin referred to as Government representatives) to be: appointed by the Governor-General, on the recommendation of the Minister, as representatives of the New Zealanel Government." Now, gentlemen, I think that is onlv right, but I say that the:y should not be departmental officers 15. Who said that they would be ? —Well, I am rather at a disadvantage:- - 16. Departmental officers were not appended to the Meat Control Boarel or the Dairy Control Board ? -That is right. 1 simply did not know. lam not suggesting anything against the. Department at all. But I want to say that they are not commercial men. Then, I would sugge:st that the export-control part of the BiU should be referred to a referendum of the growers in the; same way as the local-control part. Then, I think that the powers that are given tei the Board are altogether too sweeping. There: is also a matter that is interesting to all of us, and that is the question of exchanges. This year I have arranged all my advances through my bank, and. I can candidly tell you that my banker has advised me that he' insists upon getting the: benefit of any exchanges. Then there is the epuestion of insurance'. That may seem to be a small matter, but it is a matter eif importance to all of us. I pay a very high rate for my insurance -much higher than anybody else:. But I get good cover —much better than the small companies ceiuld give through the Control Boarel. I would therefore prefer to arrange my own insurance. There is another matter I would like to mention. I took a very great deal of interest in tho evidence that Mr. Williams gave. Mr. Williams's evidence was very fine. Mr. Williams said that he, did not object to the: Government having control as they have now, through the federation—that he believed in expert oontrol to a certain extent, hut that ho did not personally want to bo controlled Now, I really think that just seems to be the position. We do not want to be controlled as to where; we are going to send eiur produce, anel as to who is going to handle: it, provideel that the firm is a firm of repute. There is always an inclination towards combines and monopolies in connection with the marketing of produce, and if the fruit has to be sent to a man who has the exclusive' agency for New Zealand fruit on the London market he woulel be: em a pretty gooel wicket, especially as he: woulel be placed in that position owing to a Government measure. With regard to growing apples on poor land to compete with apples grown on good land, Ido not think that you can alter that position. Fruitgrowing is as much a seience as, for instance, law is a profession : the tremble is that people do not realize that. The men who are: growing fruit on poor land, and obtaining perhaps only one:-eighth of a e;ase off their trees, cannot bo expected to compete against the men who are able to get six eir se:ve:n case:s off their trees. It cannot be done. That brings me to this levy of 3d. per case which is proposed in this Bill. Now, on a, basis

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of 3d. per case, and taking 130 trees to the acre and three cases to the tree—that means £4 17s. 6d. an acre taxation. And this is an industry which we: all know is not making money. 1 may say that I have: be:en thirteen years in the industry, and 1 have; not made any money out of it. Now, £4 17s. (id. an acre taxation is altogether too high. What I would suggest is this : that up to a shipment of a thousanei cases a flat rate should be imposed- -whatever that flat rate may be: —and that after that a sliding scale should be imposed : otherwise the taxation is going to bo too great. This year my charges for shipping 3,800 cases from Duneelin to Lonelon wore £39 lis. Bd., while the actual cost to me: of arranging all shipping consignment notes, bills of lading, tallying on wharf, on 2,176 cases of apples shipped to Honolulu, was done by a clerk in my employ, and tho total cost came to £3—the actual time of a clerk's salary at £3 per week. What you are going to say to me: is this : " You are not allowing for any overhead, charges." Unfortunately, my overhead charges are: very heavy. Unfortunately, 1 am in the fruit business, and, that being so, why should I have: tei pay further heavy charges and taxation ? I am prepared to admit that the Government want all tho taxation they can get, and I admit they have to get it; but our overhead charges on this basis are teiei great, and that is what you are going to have under control. I understand that there was local control in Nelson during the past season, and that there were two men there each receiving £500 per ye;ar; and I have told you that my boy did this work for £3, and did it well. 17. Mr. Forbes] How are the: charges of £39 fls. Bd. made up ?—The: £39 tls. Bel. is the provincial council's charge of 2Jd. on each case of fruit; and I understand that Mr. McKee gave: evidence the other day on that point. I want to point out tei you that we are paying charges on every hand. You may ask me what 1 have to say. What 1 have: tei say is this : If you can bring about a cheaper form of distribution so that the public is able to get the benefit, then I am with you ; but control will never do it. Neiw, there: is only one either point that 1 want to impress upon you about the Bill, and it is that I do not know how many are; em the criminal records of the Dominion, but I am going to suggest to you that there; are; going to be about two thousand fruitgrowers in Auckland, and also a large number in Otago, who are going to be on the criminal records of the: Dominion. 18. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] That is a serious statement to make: ?—lt is, sir, and I say it without any hesitation. Provision is made: in the Bill that if any person obstructs or attempts to obstruct the Board, or any officer of the Board, an offence is committed, and, moreover, he is liable to a fine: of £50. 1 submit that that should be reduced to a sum not exceeding £5 ; and it should be at the discretion of a Magistrate, who would, on the facts of each case, bo the one; to determine tho matter. Now, sir, when speaking last week on the wheat question, the Honourable: the Minister of Agriculture stated that they would never drag him into a pool. Now, I suggest that there can be little difference between a Wheat Pool anel a Fruit Pool, except that, so far as wheat is concerned, you can hold it, but you cannot do so in the case of the fruit industry. 19. I meant that I did not agree with the Australian system, and would not stand for a system of that description ? —However, in Otago we ask to be left alone. Wo are carrying on with the assistance of Mr. Napier in Wellington, and. we only ask to be left alone, because; we; elo not think for a moment that a system of control will affect the position. I may say that I pay between £50 and £60 per week in wages all the year around, and there is in addition the amount paid out at certain periods of the year for harvesting, running up to another £600. I have four married couples on my property, anel 1 want to say that I do not know eif any class of the community that are as faithful as the people I have working on my place. I put my position before them, and they undertook to help me: in every way possible; and they work from early morning until late at night. Efficiency is the complete answer to the whole thing as regards failure or otherwise: of a man's orchard. If there is no efficiency, then it is not expected that things will go right. 20. Mr. Corrigan] You referred just now to 95 per cent, of the growers in Otago being against the Bill; but you did not show any proof eif it ? —Proof of it, sir, is surely shown by the petition presented to the House yesterday. There will be two more in to-day, and there will be two more in on Tuesday. 21. Who are: the: people who arc so aetivc in getting the petitions up ? —Tho growers themselves are unanimous about it, and they have to do something to save their position. Immediately they saw the Bill they were up against it. 22. Arc these, petitions as a result of some excited organizations' work ? —We are against the Bill all the time, and, moreover, we are satisfied with our provincial council. The position is too serious for it to be termed "excited organization." 23. Do you not think that the; petitions are the result of some excited organizations ?—We have only become acquainted with the Bill within the last three weeks, and it cannot be suggested that in a period of three weeks people have become excited about the matter. When it is a question of pounds shillings and pence and their existence, is concerned, it is only reasonable to expect people will be:come concerned. We understood that Nelson was behind the Bill all the time ; but we did not think we were going to be roped in like this. 24. You use as an argument that the Board would take on the picking and packing eif the, fruit without conversing with the producers ? —Yes. 25. Do you not realize that it is the Board's functions to make regulations in the interests of the producers ?—They have power to do it. That brings me back to the point that I referred to previously, and that is, if I heard the evidence of these who are in favour of the Bill I would be in a position to meet these questions. In connection with the packing-sheds, I understand the idea is for the Board to have these packing-sheds —tho Bill says so. May I say that you can grade butter right throughout New Zealand, but you cannot grade fruit. I suggest in all seriousness that if five officers of the

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Agriculture Department were working together and asked to grade a certain quantity of fruit, they would grade that fruit each in a different way. 26. Mr. Corrigan] Do yeiu not realize, Mr. Duncan, that it is for the benefit of the: producers to make regulations like; that ? —I am satisfied that there are no men in New Zealand to-day capable of forming a Boarel of Control for the fruit industry. I say that subject to all contradiction. 27. How can you tell that ? They would do their best. Supposing you were on the Board ? —No, sir. I say this, that I elo not think lam capable, of carrying it out. If the Bill goes through, the Control Board will do their best, but I. say that it cannot be done, and on failure the. growers have no remedy against the members of the: Board or the Board. 28. Well, you must admit that we are living in an age of combinations : even tho lawyers have their Law Society ? —But that is only a society for the protection of the public, I understand : this Bill is not for the protection of the public. 29. Now, if it is necessary that you should have a society tei keep yourselves up to standard, is it not just as necessary in this business to have a controlling body to keep the producers up to standard? —You have already all the; machinery that is necessary. 30. What machinery ? —You have an Agriculture Department. They do all that. It is right that they should elo it. 31. But they have no statutory powers of control ? —Yes, they have all that are necessary. 32. You were telling us just now about 250 cases of apples glutting the market at Honolulu. Now, suppeising you hael a Control Board tei regulate that market, do you not think that they weiulel be able to prevent such a. position as that arising? —So far as Honolulu is concerned, yeiu only want to ship one:e:, and then you stop. I have stopped. 33. Mr. Forbes] You are not going to ship again ?—No, never again. 34. Mr. Corrigan] Well, we: will take the South American market: do you not think that the Semth American market could be controlled ? —The principle of bringing down legislation by Order in Council —a principle which was inaugurated during the, war —is entirely wrong ; but I must say I am convinced that tho Minister did the right thing in regard to the Semth American market last season—limiting the quantity to be shipped —anel if he wants to control that market again in the same way I woulel have: no objection. The sale on the basis eif a c.i.f. contract was entirely wrong in principle —only f.o.b. sales at port eif shipment shoulel be made. 35. You think that an embargo would be satisfactory to prevent more fruit being shipped than coulel be absorbed by the South American market ?—Yes, quite: satisfactory. But, of course, that does neit apply to the European markets—to great distributing centres like; London and Hull. 36. With regard to those apples you mentioned that arrived in London in bad condition, do yeiu not think that a Board of Control could have prevented that sort of thing ? —No, they could not. I take it that that fruit was passed by the departmental officers in the ordinary course'. 37. Did not tho temperature at which the fruit was carried have something to do with it ?—Not in view eif Mr. Attwood's remarks. There is nothing suggested about temperature:. Mr. Attwood represents the whole of the growers at Home, and he makes this statement. Ho says, "We have taken a record of a large number of eiases. A big line: eif Jonathans was particularly troublesome— case after case of the: larger sizes, 96's and 100's, with scarcely a sound apple in the box." It is impossible to tell what is the cause ;it is impossible; tei tell what talres place. It is something in the period of that apple's life: from the time that it started to develop that is the cause. It may be: due to climatic conditions. 38. Do yeiu not think it is ne:cossary to have; some: system to get over that difficulty ?—You cannot get over that difficulty. When the fruit arrives like that it arrives like that, and you cannot alter the position, Other fruit of the same variety in tho same shipment arrived in good order. 39. But we have had similar troubles in connection with other industries, and when careful inquiries have been made: and followed up they have been found to be due chiefly tei bad handling ? — Nei, sir. That may have been the case in regard to butter, cheese, and meat, but that is not the case: in regard to fruit. I say that, so far as export is concerned, the provincial council gives to growers all the services that are: required, and the departmental officers pass and complete the grading and issue: their certificates without control. 40. You say that your charges for shipping from Dunedin to Lonelon this year wore £39 lis. Bd. ? —Yes. 41. Can yeiu tell us what that included? —That included all the charges of the provincial council. 42. Did it include freight ? -No, just the clerical charges. 43. Well, if there is a Control Beiard set up do you not think they woulel be able to elo the; weirk at a similar charge ?—I am quite satisfied that if the Control Board is set up their charges will be much in excess of that. lam quite satisfied they will not be able to do it for 3d. They will try and get a levy from somewhere else, but I do not know where: they will get it from. 44. The federation charge is 2jd. ?- Ye>s. Wellington cannot dei for us what we e:an do for ourselves down there. We have to handle our fruit according to our own climatic conelitions. A nor'-wester may e;eime along, or the: warm weather may come on suddenly. Take stone-fruit, for instance : if the' warm weather starts, within four or five days, if the: fruit is not picked, it will be lying on the ground. Anel the: control charge' would be in addition to what our provincial council's charges woulel be. 45. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] Mr. Duncan, do you think that the trouble with regard to these apples that you mentiemod was due to their being overripe ? —I have no eioubt it had something to do with it. 46. There is a greater risk in shipping apples of that, size?—That is quite right, but that is no reason why that size should not be shipped.

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47. With regard to the £50, the: maximum for obstructing the Boarel ?—No, sir, it is a straightout fine of £50 : the Bill says, " shall be; liable on summary conviction to a fine of £50." 48. But they can make a minimum—£so is the: maximum fine: that can be: imposed, and 1 woulel not impose such a fine on a first offender. Now, in regard to the: insurance:, you said you did not think the Board could work insurance so well as you are working it now. Do you know it is a fact that the Daiiy Control Boarel has reduced the insurance by over £70,00*) this year, and that the: Meat Board has also effected a big reduction ? —You elei not get these reductions for nothing—you pay for them. 49. Heiw do you ?.■ So far as fruit is concerned, the: difficulty is to get, any insurance: company to take: it over: at, all. 50. 1 think that could be arranged all right ? —Down in Otago we look after our own insurance. 51. Look at the tremendous saving- £70,000 in erne year by the. Dairy Control ; you know that is pretty considerable. 1 am speaking from memory —it may be even more than that. The, Meat Beiard, too, has effected big savings. 1 am just telling you why considerable reductions like: that can be. looked for through the' Board. Your experience: at Honolulu only goes to show that, where' trade is properly regulated—sei long as it is not overdone —there: is a good marke:t for a certain amount of stuff? It should be open for independent buyers from Honolulu tei buy their produce here. 52. 1 agree with you; but that is not to say that the Board could not take up the, whole output. I preipeise: to allow the Board to sell the whole output if wo can get an f.o.b. price: that is satisfactory. I know that the regulation of shipments of meat from here has been more than satisfactory : the latest report is that the committe*e has worked well, and a similar report has been received with regard to the dairy control. I think the same thing may be said of the: apple business. It is a matter of tho necessary guieiancc—regulating the shipments?- Sei far as apples are: they must be. shipped when they arc ripe. 53. What salary do you pay the manager of the local market ? —I do not know what Mr. Turner gets ; he is a director of the federation. 54. Mr. Langstone] How many growers road the: Bill ? —So far as Otago is concerned I shoulel. say that none of the growers read the Bill until I received a copy from the Hon. Mr. Dowhie Stewart and had copies typed in my office: and distributed subsequent to the visit eif Mr. Allan to Otago. I say that without any hesitation —the trouble was to get a copy of the Bill. 55. What people in Otago are: quite satisfied with the present conditions ?— We are quite satisfied, all of us. 56. Mr. Corrigan] In connection with the control, you mentioned that you were; prepared to paxmore for your insurance, provideel you got better cover. Could you not write and tell the Beiaiel that you wore prepared to pay more for bettor cover ? —I do not think so, because the arrangements I made were made with tho local firms. So far as insurance is concerned, I believe in supporting local inelustry, anel the New Ze:aland companies are the companies who arc. entitled to the insurance business. 57. All things being equal ?—They are bonnel to be equal. The difficulty is not in fixing up the insurance;, but in getting settlement of the claims made ; and therefore .1 like tei deal with my local eilfice when a claim is made. 58. They are, all prepared to do business on the same; basis ? —No, they are not. The bulk will try to see how they can get out of paying for damage. 59. With regarel to this levy of 3d.: there, are certain e:xpenscs that must be met, and the Board, when taking control, would have further expenses : woulel those be an addition ? —The feeleration at present get the orchard-tax, which they have available, for expenses. This levy is an addition to that. There is one matter that I omitted to mention, and that is the question of tho Government guarantee of Id. I cannot help admitting that it has been of the greatest assistance in helping people who weiulel otherwise have boon financially embarrassed. If the Government, desire to be placed in the position of having some security for that guarantee, I think they are entitled tei ask for it, but not in this form. 60. With regard to the £39 lis. Bd. charges for shipping 3,800 cases: was that excessive ?—I am afraid it was. 61. And you got 2,154 cases shipped for £3 ?—I hael no overhead expenses. My eierk elid.all the work and I charged for his time;. 62. Seeing that you could got a clerk to do it at a cost of £3 instead eif £39 lis. Bd., do you not think that similar economies could be effected by the: Board ? —I do not think it, will be with the personnel that is likely to go on the; Control Board, if the salary —£500 —paiel to Mr. Allan anel others is any criterion. 63. There: is nothing in the: Bill to ineiicate that they are going to be paid any such sum ?—I suggest that the people who have not given their evidence and who are supporting the Bill seem tei be, the: people who are looking for big remuneration. 64. Do you kneiw heiw many exporters there are in New Zealand whei export twenty-five cases and over ? —I have no idea. So far as Otago is cemcorned, there were forty-nine shippers last year and only five shipped twenty-five cases and, under. With regard to the limit of twenty-five cases, I do not think that anybody who exports less than a hundred cases should have: a veito ; I think that would be wrong. 65. How many shippers are there in. Canterbury ? —I do not know anything about Canterbury. 66. The Acting-Chairman] If there were: no exporters in Canterbury, that means that Otago would have the sole right of electing a member to the Board ? —I do not think that is right, in sei far as the actual number on the Board is concerned Canterbury is entitled to a member. I think that the principle: eif giving two members to Nelson is wrong. When it, comes to the' question of provincial representation on the: Boarel Nelson is only entitled to erne representative.

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67. Would you give Marlborough one: ?- Marlborough goes in with Hawke's Bay, but her interests are surely with Nelson. 68. Mr. Corrigan] With regard to financing, could not the Board, having certain quantities of fruit in storage, arrange for an overdraft from the bank on behalf of the growers who had supplied the fruit? —That would be absolutely detrimental to the interests of the private owners. No Board should have the right to go to a bank to have an advance made for me. Weiuld it be fair to you, if you wanted an overdraft of, say, £50 from your bank, if 1 were: to go to your bankers anel say, " I want an advance of £50 ? " I will tell you what the bank weiuld say- "Do yeiu know the position of Mr. Corrigan's account ? " 69. But the Board would not do it that way ? —But the Board could not help it. 70. Suppose there were five thousand cases in storage and the bank was willing to advance 90 per cent. If yeiu had, say, a hundred cases of fruit in storage, could not the Board arrange for the bank to advance: up to 90 per cent, of its value ?—There is no storage that applies to Nelson, not to Otago. I hope for the Government's sake: that it will not be, prompted to do this. Sei far as shipping is concerned, the absolutely essential thing is tei get your apple;s from the; trees into the boat. Last year Otago shipped fifteen theiusand cases in one chamber, and I regret to say that owing to rough we:ather and other circumstances the fruit was five' days in transit tei Lyttelton. I think that had something to do with the fruit being in bad condition : it was too long in the rail way-trucks. So far as aelvances are: concerned, no'Boarel. should have the: right to go to tho bank and ask for an advance;. That is my business, and I shoulel be permitted to arrange my own finances. 71. Under the Bill they can appoint an agent outside of Now Zealanel. Do yeiu think the arrangements that you make at present are better than coulel be made through the services eif an agent ?—My idea is that the man who puts the goods em the: floor will sell them. There is erne thing the shipper must not do : he, must not break his consignments between two auctioneers. He wants tei put his fruit on the one floor, and it is on the one floor always. The great thing is to ship steadily em to your erne market. So far as London is concerned, it is absurd to suggest that one agent in London is the only one. whei can handle the stuff properly. I may be wrong, but that is my Opinion. Competition is the life of trade, and credit the soul eif industry. If you cannot get your credits you cannot carry on. Ido not know any one at present in New Zealand whei woulel be capable of geiing tei England to act as representative, unless it is Mr. Napier. He is a young fellow with any amount of " ginger." 72. If there were an agent in London, Mr. Duncan, do you think it woulel be possible to find markets in seime eif the large; towns adjacent to London, sei as to avoiel glutting the London market ?-- All our shipments would not necessarily be for the London market. One man, could not handle: them easily. The difficulty is that we are not in the same position as the dairy business -with the: dairyproduce your man could hold it for a whole season. 73. Is it a fact that there are combinations of auctioneers ? —Not in tho South. I unelerstand there are in the North —in Weilington, for instance--but 1 cannot vouch for it. Just to sheiw you — it is suggested that there is a certain firm in Auckland behind this Bill erne which is very much interested in it: that is what is suggested. 74. Is there very much loss under the: present method of distribution of fruit ?—Not, in Dunedin. Our position in Dunedin is that when the fruit ripens we place it on the; market; the auctioneers have' an idea of values and advise the quantity in the market. We have got to accept the values, and they all give: us a square; deal. As a result the consumers get tho benefit. I can assure you that in the glut season it is a sight to see the people going there and getting their cases of fruit, at payable prices to the growers. It is a sight to see: the people walking away with eiases of fruit under their arms. 75. Dei you not think that if more oven distribution of tho fruit coulel be arranged it would be; possible for the people: in the country towns tei get the: benefit eif oheap fruit in the glut season ? — They got it now. 76. Do you not think some arrangement could be made whereby in the glut season certain quantities of fniit could be allocated to the: smaller towns- -for instance, so much for Oamaru. so much for Timaru, and so on. ? Woulel not such an arrangement prevent the' glutting of the: market ? — 1 am glad you askeel that question ; it brings me right back to the time when the: federation wan formed. Mr. Sheldon and the directors came down to Dunedin —Mr. Campbell, of the: Department, was there — and their slogan was "Co-operation: you form a co-operative society in Dunedin we are going to Christchuroh to form one there —and we will see that no market is glutted." We 1 formed out cooperative society, but that was the end of the tiling, and the federation has forgotten all about it. That is what the federation everywhere was going to elo. Why have they not carried out the; very thing they brought the federation into existence for, and if the federation e:eiulel not do it, why shoulel one expect the same men on a Control Board to do it. 77. With regard to moneys under tho Export Control Board, all purchases have; to be paid into that Board, and under local control all moneys have to be paid to the Local Control Board. Weiuld that be satisfactory to the growers ?-- Ido not think so it would take too long. In connection with the co-operative society in Dunedin the growers had a pooling scheme, and it was found that the' man who put in gooel fruit was sacrificed to the man who only put in jam fruit. 78. But weiuld they not get aecount sale's feir each hit ? They have not yet got settlement. They have not settled for last year's shipment to South America, and yet they send a man there to represent them. 79. Mr. Forbes] How many cases were: exporteel last year from New Zealanel ?— I coulel not tell.

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80. What is the usual shipment—what size, ?—-Ton thousand —fifte:e;n thousand to sixteen thousand cases, according to the boat. 81. That is a very small supply so far as London is concerned ? —Not notice:able;. It is suggested that this Board can bring down the shipping rate, Mr. This Beiard cannot affect the shipping rate one iota. If the freight geie:s up in Australia it goes up hero. 82. 1 have not he:ard it claimed that the Boarel would reeiuce freight ?—Mr. Nosworthy raised the question. 83. Under the. Bill it is provided that moneys received by the Boarel shall be; applied to payment of salaries, expenses, commission, and other charge's: do you think that will amount to much ?—I think they will be in the same position as at present. 84. Do they pay their directors ?—I have no idea. I think they can pay and get their travellingexpenses. When the Control Board comes they will want big fat fees. 85. With regard to the Board of seven members :do you think that is big enough ? I think the smaller the' Beiard the be'tter, but every district is entitled to be represented. 86. Do you think it better to be represented provincially ? —Every province shoulel be' represented. The' Boarel should consist of business men who know something of the ineiustiy. 87. You are more against the: Local than the Export Control Board ?---I am against them both. 1 do not want to be controlled, because Ido not think it feasible'. lam willing to be placed under the restrictions of the Department, anel to abide by the arrangements made in connection with shipments to the South American market; but all these powers can be carreel eiut by the present machinery of the federation, which, under Mr. Napier, is now giving excellent results. 88. The Chairman] Early in your evidence you made a statement to the effect that Mr. Allan was being kept back until the; end in order to hear all the evidence, insinuating that the Committee we're in favour of one siele as against the: other : elid you mean to infer that ? —You have heard what. I have saiel. When 1 want tei ask a question of Mr. Izard yeiu would not permit me to do so, but you allow Mr. Campbell to question a man. 89. That was rather a different position ?-—I put it to you - I think you were wrong in my case, because 1 woulel rather have' asked Mr. Izard for that information. So far as Mr. — is concerned, and myself, I am sure: you are not a, biased man 90. That was by the decision and request of the Committee ? —I am sure the Committee is not biased, but I do think you have been a little wrong in the procedure. 91. Yen made a statement that an Auckland firm is behind this Bill : what do you mean to insinuate ?---I am only saying what I have heard. It is suggested that an. Auckland firm is interested, I do not know how much there is in it. 92. Did Mr. Allan address any meetings in Otago ? Wore; any resolutions carried ? —There, were several resolutions carried, all prior to the growers se:eing the Bill 93. So far as the: Bill is concerned ? —Mr. Allan told us that Nelson is in favour of it, and we saiel wo did not want it, but that we weiulel not do anything to prevent Nelson getting it. 94. The resolution was against the Bill in so far as Otago is concerned? —Petitions are coming in from all the growers. Mr. Allan came down to Otago —this is the way you placed me; at a disadvantage. Ido not want to say all this—l would not have said a word, but have had to do sei. 95. I did not intend to convey anything personal in my remarks ; I merely wanted to know the fooling of the meeting. Were the resolutions that were earried at the meeting in favour or against the Bill ?-- Tt is immaterial what they were. 96. I am asking you a straight question : were: they in favour or were' they against ?—I say they were made without knowledge of the contents of the Bill. 97. That is not answering my question ? But I have answered your question 1 have given you a clear answer. 98. What I want to know is. were the resolutions in favour or against, the Bill ?—They were resolutions absolutely against the Bill. 1 99. As regards exchange, you say you did the exchange' work yourself ?- That is an orelinary business method. 1 can save' my exchange. 1 am getting my drafts encashed in London without paying double rates on them. Wednesday, 17tii September, 1924. F. G. Duncan re-examined. (No. 20.) 1. The A cling-Chairman] I understand yeiu wish to aeld a few remarks to what you stated on Friday last, Mr. Duncan ?— Yes, sir, 1 will be very brief. I wish tei say that, sei far as Otago is concerned, what we ask for is that, if the Bill goes through, it should be a provincial matter, and only under provincial control, and subject to a provincial referendum. 2. You aie referring to tho export part, of the Bill ? —Yes. The other matter I would like: to draw your attention to is this : I have papers here from Nelson, and I see it is stated by the executive of the Nelson provincial ceiimcil that there is no opposition in evidence here to the Bill from Otago-- that Otago is unanimously in support of the Bill. Now, sir, that is the kind of statement that was maele by Mr. Allan, when he; was in Otago, about Neison 3. I de> not think we can take any notice of newspapers ? —Very well, sir.

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Allan Kursley Gray examined (No. 21.) 1. The, Acting-Chairman] What is your full name', Mr. Gray? —Allan Kersley Gray. 2. Aie, you a fruitgrower'?—Yes, I am an orchardist, and 1 am also in business in Wellington. 3. And your address ?—Box 1080, Wellington. 4. Will yeiu make a statement? —Yes, sir. 1 am here representing our own firm of Gray Bros., and I weiuld like: to briedy explain what is our position. From 1918, when my brother and I bought the orchard which we at present own, until last year our position resolved itself in to this : that wc found a steady decrease in eiur returns owing to the increasing difficulty of marketing our fruit at a payable price, and also a steady increase in our expenses owing to the natural and normal increase of our orchard as it increased in age. We found that the; position was rapidly resolving itself into a condition of affairs where:, if we went on producing fruit, we weiulel be producing fruit at a hiss. I may say that evidence was produce-d in the Supreme Court about twei and a half ye:ars ago in Nelson, in tho neiw famous case' eif C. E. Low, and as to which, after an eight days' sitting, the Juelge summed up the matter to the jury by pointing out that the whole: eif the evidence in that ease had geine tei show that the more fruit a. man sold the: more money he hist. Weil, those were the conditions about that time, and that was our position. Well, last year wo decided that if we: oeiulel not. get out and se:ll our crop we should have, to walk off our place: anel leave it. So I came eiver here tei Wellington early last year, anel established a small business inside the Kelburn Tramway. Well, through that small business we; disposed of the: whole: of our crop from about June last ye:ar, and for the first time we finished the year with something like a moderate: debit. The, previous years had all boon huge: debits. This year we have bought a shop on Lambton Quay, and still have tho business in the: Kelburn Tramway. Neiw our position is that we have; dispeised of the: whole of our crop up to date, with the exception of 112 cases which we have, auctioned, anel at the present time we are running short of supplies—we are not geiing to have enough. Our business is wholesale and retail. We supply other shopkeepers throughout Weilington and the suburbs, and up the line. And in addition to that we; do a. very good case trade with the ordinary consuming community of Wellington. Now, sir, eiur position is that, for the money we have' invested, both in our orchard and our business, and for eiur six years' work, up to the present time: wc have received nothing at all, practically speaking ; anel we: are: absolutely compelled to support this Bill. So far as the Export Board is concerned, wc are not large exporters at present, but our business is growing rapidly, and wc may have to export a fair quantity next year. But as growers we: are' of course naturally interested in every attempt tei bring down the e;ost of selling as well as producing our fruit. To my mind the success of the Me:at and Dairy Control Boards is sufficient proof that something at least can be done to bring down the cost of marketing our fruit on the Home market anel em the: South American market. The federation, tei my mind, has not got sufficient powers, and in addition to that I think it will be a, very hard thing ineioed for the: Government to invest the federation with sufficient powers tei give them the same kind of control that a Board set up by the Government weiuld have. The: Nelson provincial council, to my mind, is simply a debating society. It is like all other fruitgrowers' associations- simply a fruitgrowers' debating society. It has no peiwe:r. it has no power to take, on any control. It has no power to talk to tho Harbour Boards, or to the: shipping companies, eir to the: insurance; companies anel brokers, whieii is the only way to get something done. And the: only object to my mind, of the setting-up of an Export Control Beiard under this Bill woulel be: to have one; central body to deal with all the different firms and concerns in connection with the; handling of our fruit, from the time we pick it until that fruit is sold in London or South America. I would also sugge:st that I think some power eif the kind is required to talk to the Department —and I say that with all due deference to Mr. Campbell and his officers, and all that they have elone for us -the ielea being that a Board eif that kind could impress upon the Department what we' have been trying to impress upon them for a very long time;, and that is that, their colour staneiard is too high. So far as their quality grades are concerned 1 agree with them, but their colour standard is too high. We have to leave the fruit on tho trees too long, anel the fruit gets too ripe. So far as the; Local Board is concerned, 1 think the members of the' Committee have: only to look at the history of fruitgrowing during the past twelve ye:ars, and it may be' summed up, 1 think, as a ghastly failure. There have been in the Nelson Province during the last twelve years five: or six attempts at cooperative marketing and co-operative handling eif fruit. The; Government knows to their cost how much money has been lost in the orchard industry in the Nelson Province. And the result is that the growers as a whole: have: lost confidence: in co-operative efforts. That is only to be expected, I suppose. 1 think myself, from my own personal experience over there, that the: reason why those co-operative-marketing efforts have failed is first of all the disloyalty of the growers to their own interests, and also gross mismanagement. Those are; the two outstanding features of the co-operative concerns of the: Nedson Province, and 1 say that as a fruitgrower. I am speaking now as a fruitgrower. 1 have' not come across a more disloyal section of the; community to their own associations than the: average fruitgrower. And for that reason I consider that the fruitgrowers will have to be: taken charge of in a fatherly way. The fruitgrower will have to be told that if he himself is not loyal enough to his own concerns to safeguard his own interests, then the Government, who have a large amount of money sunk in the industry, and alsei the other financial institutions, shall have a right to safeguard their interests. That, I. think, is a perfectly fair proposition. It is useless to attempt to give to tho Committee: any figures as tei the cost of production or the, selling-costs of fruit for any period during the past three or four years, but I do know this from my own experience—and this does neit apply to emly one:, but to scores of fruitgrowers who have had fruit to sell, and who have tried to handle that fruit and get a payable price:—-that growers have been compelled to sell at an absolute sacrifice in order to get the money to pay for the cases. They have bemght the cases from the sawmillers. and the sawmillers have pushed them for the; money, and they have hael to sacrifice their fruit in order

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tei get the money to pay feir the; cases. Now, that is a position which 1 think emght to be obviated in any industry. Now, so far as the. operations of the Nelson Control Boarel this ye;ar are concerned, I may Say that 1 think 1 am in a position that no fruitgrower eif this country has ever been in before'. I am a practical fruitgrower by training, and I have: hael the opportunity during the last eighteen months of spending almeist e:ve:ry morning in the market. 1 have certainly been down there for four mornings every week during the; last eighteen months, and I have therefore: had an opportunity of seeing what has boon the result of the: Nelson Control Board's operations during the past season ; and in spite of many obstacles, and in spite of absolutely unfair competition —not only from outside tho Control Board, but also from men under the: control itself, whei have agreed to give: their fruit to the Control Board—there is only one thing that can be: said about the operations of that Control Beiard, and that is that their operations have been a, huge success from the: growers' point of view and from the retailers' point of view, and also from the consumers' point of view. I think one of the best results of their operations is the fact that this year only 52 per cent, of their fruit came on to the Weilington market. The: either 48 per cent, was solel direct, and did not come on to the Wellington market at all. 5. You are referring to controlled fruit only ? —Yes. I do not know whether you gentlemen are: aware of it or not, but it has been said that Wedington is the dumping-ground for the fruitgrowers of New Zealand, and sei it is. But the mere fact that the Nelson Control Board this year has been able to keep off that market practically half tho fruit they have hael to handle for the growers of the Neison Province has been, to my mind, a very satisfactory result indeed. Then there has been another very satisfactory result —and 1 am speaking now as a retailer —and that is that the Control Board has tended to eliminate the hawker. That fact may not appear of very great importance until the matter is looked at in its true light. When fruit is selling at 35., 3s. 6d., or 4s. a case, almost any man can buy in fifteen to twenty cases and travel round the suburbs of Wellington and sell that fruit at ss. 6ei. to 7s. a case: to householders. Neiw, I say without any hesitation at all that that fruit is dear at any price. 1 have had myself householders come into my shop and show me: samples of such fruit, and the stuff is really only fit feir pig-feed. And the mere fact that the Control Board has set a very high standarel, and that they have fixed their prices, and that, speaking generally, those prices have, been maintained throughout the: wheile season -that fact has tended to eliminate: the casual hawker, who can trade: only on rubbish and nothing else. The controlling of supplies, anel the fixing of prices, must cut emt the: men who can only work on rubbish at, rubbish prices. I may say that we started a scheme last year which may be of interest to the: Committee. We agree:d to supply to any customer who woulel take one' case of fruit every month fruit of the "A " grade at 3d. a pound. We agreed to supply a case of that grade: of fruit at 3d. a pound throughout the whole year. We: shall have: supplied by the: end of this year about eighteen hundred oase:s of fruit on that basis. We: think that that is a fair thing for the consumer. We do not think that any man objects to paying 3d. a pound throughout the: whole: year from January to November for first-grade apples. Weil, the scheme was rushed, and we: had to close down. We could not take all the people who wanted to come into tho scheme. Well, we have been asked to bring the scheme into operation again next year, and our position is this : that we are not, able to carry on that scheme unless we are fairly certain that some form of control —cither voluntary or compulsory —will be in operation. We: could not compete against the men who sell inferior fruit at a che:ap price:. We are therefore not prepared to go on with that scheme: next year unless we are satisfied in our own minds that there is to be some: form of contreil on the Wellington market next season. I may say that Aliport and Scott, who were the originators, 1 think, of the idea of the; fruitgrower coming over here: anel selling his eiwn fruit, are now out of business in Weilington. They closed up their shop last week. That is a pity, because every grower that comes across here and sells his fruit at a reasonable price is helping not only the other growers in Neison, but also helping the growers of Otago, anel Hawke's Bay, and elsewhere, anel the public arc getting their fruit at a more reasonable price. And it is my opinion that Aliport anel Scott, who did almost entirely a case tiade, have been forced out of business by the unfair competition of the men whei can go into the: market and buy fruit at rubbish prices, cart the stuff round, and sell it to householders at rubbish prices. That is my personal opinion, I may say that the, greatest result, to my mind, of the setting-up of such a Control Board as is contemplated in this Bill is the: establishment of one central boeiy, who will be able to deal with the shipping companies and the: Harbeiur Boards, and also tei ele:al with the sawmillers in the supplying of oases, the packing-materials, the proper organization of graeling anel paoking-sheds, anel all branches eif transport; and more particularly, who will bo able to talk, backed by statutory power, to the people who at the present time are: not handling our fruit fairly. Now, I want to put before the Committee some evidence eif that fact —of the unfair handling of the: fruit. These, gentlemen, are some Stunners which 1 saw in the cool store; at Motueka about three weeks ago, and this is the condition in which this fruit arrived in Wellington. Some: of those Stunners are, in good condition, but some of them are also in very bad condition, being very much bruised and knocked about. [Apples handed rounel.] Now, all these Stunners came out of the same case. I have been down to the wharf and complained until lam black in the face, but they will take: no notice eif me. lam nobody. Our little stock of abemt four thousand cases a year is nothing, comparatively speaking. But 1 submit that if there is one Board, backed up by Government authority, that has power to go tei the shipping company and the: Harbeiur Boarel and say to those people, " This sent of thing is an absolute disgrace. You must find some better method of handling that fruit or we will take action," there; is seime chance of the fruitgrower getting a fair deal. There is noboely in New Zealand —neither the Nelson provincial council, neither the; Otago provincial council, neither' the Auckland association, nor anybody else-— who can talk to the: Harbour Boards and the shipping companies. Then, there is another point that 1 think might bo emphasized, and that is the fact that one central Beiard of this kinei would have the power to deal with buyers. That is to say, supposing a buyer comes into the Neison Province, he woulel

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first of all have to approach tho Control Boarel, which would prevent the present position of growers being made mincemeat of amongst the buyers. There is net cohesion amongst the growers —no fixing of prices at which the fruit wdl be: seilel and the only pe:eiple- who can talk to the buyers is a Board of men who have been set up by the growers, and who are: backed by Government authority. There: is one other point and then lam finished. I think there has been a gooel deal eif evidence adduced before this Committee, but those witnesses I have; heard appear to have overlooked the fact that if this Bill is passed by the House: the fruitgrowers themselves have the absolute: option as to whether a Local Control Board shall be set up eir not. If the growers in the: Nelson Province are so opposed to tho Bill as you have: been led to believe, then the Local Control Board will never be established. But if tho growers, on the other hand, are: in favour of the Bill, then the: Bill, to my mind, gives the: option to the growers for the establishment of this Board. So far as we are concerned, although we cannot see why a clause shoulel not be; inserted in the Bill protecting the interests of private' traelers such as ourselves, we are perfectly content to leave ourselves in the hands of any Beiard that may be sot up. We: are not frightened that any Boarel elected by the: proelucers of the Nelson Province, with Government nominees on that Board, is going to interfere with our private trade. They would, have to handle eiur fruit; and I say that, although we: do not see that that clause: should not go into the Bill, we; are perfectly content to le;ave: it in the hands of the Control Boarel, because we: know it woulel be the: most foolish policy on their part to interfere with any private traders. I think that is all I have to say. 6. Mr. Forbes] Did I understanel yeiu to say that the veiluntary Control Board had not been successful because of mismanagement and disloyalty ?—Pardon me, I was not referring to this ye:ar's Control Boarel. I was then referring to previous co-operative: e;fforts at marketing control. 7. But elei you not, consieler that mismanagement weiulel soon breed disloyalty among the growers ? —Yes, that may be: so ; but, on the: other hand, the growers have; had so little finaneial interest in the associations that when somebexiy —some: vested interest —has come along and offered them 6d. a case more; they have accepte:d it, and sold outside their association. That has happened a number of times. 8. Is this scheme yeiu have; now working successfully ? —lt is working successfully so far as I can see, and, as I say, 1 have been able: to make observations at the market a goed deal this year. I say that the voluntary Control Board this ye:ar has been an unqualified success. 9. Die! they put any fruit through feir you ?—No. 10. One: of the statements made is that the expense eif handling the: fruit by the Board is greater than what it is outside of the control ? —Yes, but 1 can quite, understand that. The expenses of any such organization during its first year are, liable tei lie: heavy. That is undoubtedly the case in every business. 11. Dei you think that if this voluntary Board is able: to get gooel results it will be able: to get tiu: support of the fruitgrowers ? No, Ido not think so. Prom my experience during the: last six or seven years Ido not think so. 1 elo not think they will all come under a Board until they are compelled to. 12. You think it is necessary to have: compulsion to bring them in ?- Yes, Ido think so. lam speaking as a fruitgrower. 13. So far as private trading is concerned, some: of the private traders state that the:y are strongly opposed to cemtrol —that they have; built up a good private trade, and that they are strongly opposed to it being taken away from them by any Board of Control ?—For my part, I am quite prepared to le:avo it in the hands of such a Board as is proposed in the: Bill. 11. With regard to the system of voting: it is provided in the Bill on a basis of twenty-five cases for the Export Board and 120 trees for the local control. That gives one: vote only to a fruitgrower whether he has twenty thousand trees or 120. Do you think that is satisfactory ? —Yes, I think sei. Of course lam speaking of the Nelson Province as I know it. 15. Yeiu think that woulel be satisfactory ?—Yes. 16. And the opposition to the Bill from Nelson —is that from any considerable, proportion of the: fruitgrowers ? —I do not know. I heard that there were; meetings being he:ld over there about three weeks ago, and I naturally made inquiries, but I did not hear of anything definitely. The only criticism I heard of the voluntary Boarel that was in operation this past season was criticism of the office men. 17. That is responsible, eif course:, for the: expenses ?—No,, It was very largely a question of the fruitgrowers not getting their money back quick enough. Everyboely I spoke to about the matter agreed that bigger prices had been obtained for their fruit this seasem than before em the' local market. 18. If a man wants to send his fruit into the market, does the Board ascertain whether eir not the market is glutted ?—1 cannot say. I elo not know very much about the: working of the Control Board in Neison. I have: been in Wellington for the last eighteen months and I attend to the selling of the fruit. 19. You can quite: understand that if a man has his fruit ready he wants to get it on to the market as epiickly as possible?—Exaediy; but at the same time, if tho fruit is picked under the; control system and "the: market is not geioel it goes into tho cool stores. At such time: as advice is received that the market is gooel the fruit can be put on to the market very quickly, 20. Dei you not think there would be: a good deal of dissatisfaction if, say, your fruit went on to tho market anel, say, my fruit was held back, and as a consequence of holding it back it deteriorated ?—I elo not know how tho Boarel woulel propose: tei deal with that. They must have; found a method to deal with the matter this year under tho voluntary Control Board. 21. It would be, a difficult matter to keep people satisfied, and a certain loss takes place by having to wait ?—I understand that. It must, however, not be forgotten that later on in the season bigger prices will be obtained for the fruit.

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22. Mr. Langstone] You said that higher prices for the fruit were: received by the fruitgrowers this season ? —Yes. 23. Did the retailers have to pay more: for their fruit ?—Ye:s. 24. That means the retail price of the fruit was dearer ? —The public paid no more for their fruit this season sei far as I can understand. 25. Apples are: very dear now, are they not ? —There is a big shortage. 26. They are not as dear as they were this time last year ? —Yes; they are the same; price, just about. 27. The best grade of apples are realizing Bd. pier pound at the present time: ?—Yes. In case any member of the Committee visited our shop I should like to say that we have only got a sufficient quantity of apples tei last us from now until the middle of December, and it we continue to sell our apples at 6d, per pound, or 14s. per case, wo will not have sufficient to last us until the next season, anel in order to test our fruit against the Canadian fruit that is coming into Ne:w Zealand we: ha.ve: deliberately put up the price of our fruit in order to sell a smaller quantity, so that it will keep longer—or, in other words, that we, may not soli it so quickly. It may not bo an economically sounel thing tei do, but we; have: done that. 28. Do you estimate: that the reason why tho growers obtained an increased price was because 48 per cent, of it was under the control of the Nelson Board and ke:pt off the Wellington market ? — The:y do not want to eivertax the: market. 29. Are you aware that the fruitgrowers right throughout Now Zealand Obtained bettor prices for their fruit this year ?—I do not know anything about that. 30. Have yeiu gone into the; question of how many cases of fruit, approximately, the local and Dominion Boarel woulel hanelle at 3d. per case ?—I have not gone; into that matter. 31. In connection with the present markers ceiuld you suggest any method by which matters could be improved there —that is, in connection with the handling of fruit at the: markevts in Wellington ? — No, sir, I cannot offer any suggestions along those: linevs at all. When the fruit arrives in the market it is all labelled, anel shows the, varieius grade's of fruit. Each broker has one, two, or three blackboards distributed about, indicating the variety of fruit in the market «nd also the price of the: fruit, and if a buyer wants a certain graele: he; goes to the broker and tells him he: wants so-many cases of apples at the price fixed on the blackboard. As a matter eif fact, many people, ring up the broker anel ascertain the: price, and then ask for so-many cases of fruit of a certain grade to be; sent along to them. 32. Could not that be elone by a buyer acting intermediary as between the. grower and the: elealer— 1 mean, instead of it being graded from the; shop, could not arrangements be maelo to grade the fruit from the ship to the shop ? —That might be possible, ; but I do not know whether the: Harbeiur Board would allow such a practice as that. As a matter of fact, they will not allow me to split my consignments in the sheds. 33. If it is consigned to you, that cannot stop you from taking it away ? —No, but one carrier must shift the whole lot; lam not allowed to employ two carriers to do the: work. 34. Tho damaged apples that you produced —del you suggest that that is caused by bad handling on the part of the carriers, or is it careless handling em the part of the Harbour Board ?—lt is careless handling on the part eif the Harbour Boarel—that is to say, the way in which they stack the fruit in the she:els. [At, this stage: witness gave: an illustration to the members of the Committee as to the manner in whie;h the Harbeiur Board stack the fruit on arrival in Weilington.] The: wharf labourers do not handle our fruit as we want it to be haneiled, and I have seen them repeatedly lift cases a foot higher than necessary, and drop them on the stack. As 1 say, I have frequently complained about the matter, but I do not get any satisfaction. 35. Have, you any idea of what the loss is in Wellington as a consequence of the: bad system of handling you referred to ?—I can tell you what my loss is so far as Stunners are concerned, because my chock applies only to them. We have handled, I think, at the present time eight hundred cases of Stunners, and on a very low estimate 1 have lost 25 per cent, through being unsaleable as a consequence of bruising at the ships' side. This is the: conelition of my apples |sample produced] when it leaves the cool store, and this is the condition [sample produced] wdien it arrives in Wellington. 36. Are: you in a position to say as to whether eir not any damage: takes place as between the ship's side: and your store, ? —No ; I have been down to the wharf arid tested this by opening up cases of fruit on the wharf, and I have shown the foreman the condition of the fruit, and I. have asked him to have the fruit stacked a certain way ; but all he says is that he is sorry, and that his instructions are to stack the: fruit in the way I have already demonstrated to the members of the Committee. 37. They usually load fruit on a tray and not on a sling ?—Yes, that is so. 38. Woulel they not need to alter' the shape of the tray to load the: fruit in the way you suggest ?— Nei, it is.not the unloading, but it is tho stacking in the; Harbour Board's sheds that does the elamage. 39. The damage is not caused when getting the fruit off the ship ? —No, not at all. That is why you do not sec a tremendous quantity eif bruised fruit in the auction-rooms. The auctioneers get out split consignments all the time, and their carriers are; waiting, and as soon as the fruit is landed from the ship they take it away. I coulel not keep my carrier waiting at, the; ship's siele: until my fruit is unloaded, because they are; very de:ar here. If my carrier hael tei wait feir my fruit, tei be unloaded it might be a couple of hours before the carrier could get away, anel that would be very expensive. As I say, the damage is e;ausod by one case: being stacked em another, anel so on. 40. Does the fruit remain in the sheds long ?—No. 41. The, temperature would not affect the fruit for that short space, of time ? —No. I have a line of fruit coming out eif the ship this morning, anel it will be in the shop by about noon.

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42. The Acting-Chairman] Are you selling your fruit under the present Control Board? —No. I may say that I could not come under the control, for two reasons : one was that their grades would not suit us, because we are aware; what grade; we want for eiur shop trade, and consequently our grade is not the same as their grade ; anel the other reason was that we knew we: were capable of handling the the wheile elf our erop, and we did not see that we, shoulel be called on to pay the: levy. 43. How would that affect you ?—lf the Bill was passed I dei not think that the Control Boarel weiulel say to us that we' would have to pay a levy of 3d. per case on, say, four theiusand cases which it diel not handle. As a matter of fact, Ido not think the; Board —that is, tin: Boarel suggested in the Bill —weiuld interfere with our private trade, feir the reasons 1 have: stated. 44. Do you purchase any fruit em the: local market? —Ye\s, we purchase all our fruit on the; local market with the, exception eif apples. Arthur Jacobs examined. (No. 22.) 1. The Acting-Chairman] You are representing Messrs. George Thomas and Co. (Limited), of Weilington, before this Committee, are you not ?—Ye:s. I weiulel like: to say at the outset that the evidence I propose to give to this Committee is not, eif a personal character, anel I am speaking on behalf of my firm. 2. 1 take: it that you have road the: proposed Bill -that is to say, you have: gone through it ? —No, I have not gone through it definitely. I take it what is necessary is an expression of opinion a.s to how we find the operation eif the present voluntary Control Board affects the: Wellington market. I woulel like to say that, in so far as the initiation of the scheme was concerne:el, we; wore approached in Wellington with a view of assisting the eiperations of the: voluntary Control Board as it affected the Nelson Province itself. The: local auctioneers—or, rather, the local brokers—decided that if it was in the interests of the Nelson District they would give it their support, anel the experience that we have gained is that by its operation the: Board has be:en of very great assistance, financially at least, to its own province this year, it was decided that the Board in Neison, as it was constituted, would be in eieise toueii with its executive in Wellington, anel in that way it would be enabled tei keep this market on a lovei that woulel be: reasonably payable to the' men who produce the: fruit, and in that direction we have: conformed to our part of the contract: that is to say, very often, fineling tho arranged prices were not possible, wc have had to get rid of a small proportion eif the arrivals under the hammer. Taking it all through, in my humble opinion at least, the Board has been an unqualified success so far as the Wellington market is concerned, it having been greatly assisted by the: fact that the distribution scheme, as set up by the: Boarel, has relieved the Wellington market of a large overplus of fruit that it had been in the habit of receiving during the past years. When it comes to a question of the quality of the fruit, 1 would like: to say that my humble opinion is that the public of Wellington are being starved of the: best quality of fruit that is grown in the: Dominion, for the principal reason that there is always one portion of the season when export of fruit is going on, and during that time nothing but really second-grade fruit is put through our markets ; and it seems a great pity for the sake of the industry generally that it is necessary that such a high grade of fruit has to be taken away from us altogether. In so far as the colour is concerned, I may say that England does not call for the high percentage of colour that we find necessary to export under the regulations, for the reason that the English climate does not lend itself to the production of highly coloured fruit, and they are quite prepared to take an apple for what it is. Then, so far as the actual returns obtained by the Control Board for the fruit are concerned, I have in mind one or two instances where fruit under the control of the Control Board has been sold at smaller prices than the uncontrolled fruit. In one instance: it was sold at 6d. per case less, and in another Is. per ease loss, than the uncontrolled fruit. Personally, lam of opinion that it would be in the interests of the Nelson District if it is decided to continue: the control, anel if everybody would decide to go in for control, whether it be statutory control or voluntary control :it would bo in the best interests of the fruitgrowers. The previous speaker made reference to the trouble experienced with shipping companies ; and all I can say is that we all have: our little differences with the shipping companies, and also with the Harbour Board, as to the: method of handling the fruit, and it is quite reasonable to suppose: that as the season advances the fruit which is held in the cool stores for twei or throe; months is very susceptible to bruising. As a matter of fact, for years and years there has been a great deal eif correspondence between the shipping companies, the Harbour Board, and the various firms in Wellington in regarel to this matter, but, unfortunately, we have: not been able to eliminate the trouble, notwithstanding the fact that it costs the growers a great eleal eif money as a consequence eif the, bad hanelling of the fruit. 3. Mr. Langstone] During a certain period of the season, 1. suppose you have difficulty in getting rid of the fruit in every part of New Zealand ?—Yes, to a certain extent; but during the, past season there was a rush at one: stage of oversizes of fruit —namely, Jonathan apples—and it meant that the Control Board in Nelson was able; to assist us in this direction ; that is, they were able to hold up supplies at the other end while: we cleared this market; whereas if fruit hael been coming in indiscriminately it would have taken the market quite a time to right itself, and probably would have afflicted the various varieties so far as sales were concerned. 4. Is the South Islanel fruit much later than your fruit —I mean, the flush of the season ? —We do not handle a great deal of the South Island fruit in Wellington. Of course, I am. not referring to Nelson, because we look upon that as being in our province. So far as the Otago fruit is concerned, it doeis not affect the Wellington market praeytieally at any time. 5. Doeis much fruit go from the: Wellington District or Nelson to Otago ?—Yes, there was quite a large quantity of fruit that was sent down there. 6. Do you think the method of distribution could bo improveel ? —They have tried only once ; but I dare say they will learn something as a consequence of this year's distribution of the fruit.

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7. You are not a fruitgrower at all ?—No. 8. You are merely a distributor ? —I am a broker. 9. The 3d. per case levy would not affect you at all ? —No. 10. Mr. Forbes] Could this Control Board handle the fruit for 3d. per case ?—Of course, I have no idea what is the view, and I would not like to venture: an opinion on that point. 11. You do not know what the present Beiard of Control charges for its work ? —No. The Nelson charges have been of no interest to us whatever. 12. How do you sell, the fruit —do you se:ll it by auction ?—Do you mean the. fruit that is controlled ? 13. The fruit that is forwarded to you by the Control Board ? —No, sir. I may say that it is carted from the wharf in the ordinary way, but it is kept in a separate part of our building and we have a man set apart to attend to the fruit and show it to the buyers. 14. Has not the fruit been very even in quality this year ? —Yes ; 1 consider that the quality of fruit that wo have received from the Nelson Province this year is probably the best that the Weilington market has handloel. 15. How long has your firm been handling fruit ? —We have been handling fruit for about forty years. 16. Have they been taking it on consignment ? —Yes, solely on consignment. 17. Do you fine! this system workexl all right —do the buyers appreciate it ?—Yes. Of course, it has had its opponents amongst the buyers. 18. What do you do if there is a surplus of fruit on tho market ? —lt sei happened, sei far as this year was concerned, that there was no overplus. Generally speaking, the industry would be better off if it elecided to destroy some of its lower-grade fruit altogether. 19. The returns do not pay them ?■■— It has to be remembered that the transport charges are. the' same on poor fruit as it is on the better grade of fruit. 20. How did the: Control Board conduct its business —eliel it appoint a number' eif agents here ?-- Yes, it appointed a number of agents in Wellington. 21. How many agents did it appoint ?-■■ -I think the number is about seven.. 22. To deal with the fruit?— Yes. We are all working on the same figures. So far as my firm is concerned, we are: nearly always able to have a eiear floor before the' next, shipment arrives. 23. Do you advise' the Board what you can take' ?-- -Yes, we are continually in touch with the Board as to how the' market stands. 24. 1 take it that your firm does not fe:ar any control that may be undertaken you elo not think it would interfere with your business ?—The, view that we: took in the first place was that,, provided the control was going to be a goorl thing for tho district as a whole, we were quite prepared to support it in every detail. 25. Are you in a position to tell the Committee; whether this year's price's wore: better than tho ]irice:s obtained last year ? —I consider that the prices obtained this year were favourable to the grower, anel probably they are as good as they will ever receive. 26. We: wore: told that the voluntary Control Board coulel not perform its work satisfactorily on account eif the. competition from either growers ?—You are: referring tei the fruit that is not controlled, I take it ? 27. Yes : do you market that fruit for them ? —lt is quite open tei e:very grower to send his fruit to any one he so desires, anel to wherever ho, likes, anel, sei far as we are concerned, it is handloel in the same manner as other fruit, except that it is solel by auction, whereas the fruit under control is sold at a fixed price. 28. Are the price:s eif uncontrolled fruit much lower than the prices eif controlled fruit ? —Of course: yem have' to take: quality into consideration to a large: extent, but, generally speaking, controlled "fruit shows an appreciable aelvancc on uncontrolled fruit. 29. What is the; proportion that yeiu handle' of controlled and uncontrolled fruit? Weil, probably 50 per cent. 30. And under control you wore able to get rid of the surplus fruit? —Yes, as I have said, wo were able' to clear up the floors and make the market steady. 31. Were some of the either firms shut out from participating in the controlled fruit? —I elo not know of any who wore actually shut out. 32. Are you acquainted with the: interests of either firms? —No; I am just interested in my own firm. 33. The Acting-Chairman] Mr. Gray, when giving his evidence;, said that probably abeiut half eif the: fruit was diverted by control tei other channeis than the Wellington market ? Yes, that, is so. They have a system, of distribution. They have' their travellers out on the road, and they are able lei send out the fruit beyond the Wellington market. 31. You consider it is a, good thing to have the fruit diverted'in that way ?—Yes, sir. 35. In what respect ? —Well, there is no pleasure feir a, salesman to be: in an auction-room and selling apples for perhaps 3s. or 45., and knowing that the grower is probably not going to get anything out of that, 3s. or 4s. We would soemer handle: the fruit on a satisfactory basis for our clients than otherwise. 36. I think yeiu said something about high-grade fruit, not coining em to the Wellington market ? —y es —that is, during the export season. The Wellington market, tei my mine!, does not, sen: the quality eif fruit that is exported. 37. Yeiu think that some: of the: high-class fruit should be kept back feir sale in Now Zealand ? — Yes. We- certainly should keep a certain proportion, to let New Zealand know exactly what, it can produce.

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38. You also said something about the marker, getting glutted at certain times, and that you could leave it to the Control Board to regulate the supplies?- Yes, immediately a glut occurs they could hold up the supplies. 39. In regard to the unsatisfactory conditions of handling fruit in transport between Nelson and here:, do you think anything can be done in that connection ?—No ; not under the present arrangements. 40. Do you use any fruit from abroad ?—Yes ; we get special consignments from abroael. 41. Do you get Canadian fruit? Yes. Last year I handled fruit on consignment. 42. How does that come out: is it much bruised and knocked about ? -Only a small proportion is bruised. 43. Not as much as in the ease of Neison apple's ?—No. 44. How is it packed ? It is packed much better than the New Zealanel fruit, and it is stacked in the hold of the boat in a better manner. 15. Mr. Forbes] The Canadian apples are hareler, perhaps ?—Some eif the earliest arc quite a seift variety. 46. Apparently they travel weil ?—Yes. Of course it is recognized that they are a fresh apple; taken direct to the; ship. 47. The, Acting-Chairman] Do they use, a different kind eif e;ase ? Yes, the: timber they use is sei much lighter. The Canadian case: is a much lighter case altogether than ours. 48. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] I understand you are not a grower' yourself ? —No ; I am a broker. 49. Mr. Gray referred to the: ghastly failure of the previous Neison co-operative marketing efforts, and said that that was due; to disloyalty anel mismanagement. Do not yeiu think yourself that things coulel be: improved wonderfully?—Well, sir, I take it, Mr. Gray was referring to efforts over there to work on a semi-co-operative basis tei improve; the trade ; but so far as my experience is concerned, I think that the last effort —that is, the voluntary Control Board —has come nearer tei improving the position than any previous effort. 50. Is that Control Board properly managed ?—Well, sir, from my experiences during the past year, I think it, has greatly benefited the Nelson District. Arthur Willtam Press examined. (No. 23.) 1. The Acting-Chairman] Wheim do you represent?—l am representing Messrs. Thompson Bros. (Limited), of Weilington. 2. You wish to make a statement to the Committee in connection with this Control Bill, elo you not ?—Yes. Mr. Jacobs men ioned that he wished it to be: understood that his remarks wore: not tei be taken as personal, and I woulel like to ally myself with tho remarks he; has made. I think he has so fully gone over the whole ground that there is really vary little for me to say. Ho ha given you a fairly derailed account of how e:ontrol affects the Wellington auctioneers, and I am of opinion that the time has ar ived when some form of compulio y e'emtrol is necessary in the interests of the fruitgrowers, because the haphazard manner that has obtained, so far as the fruit is concerned, has not been conducive to the best interests of the industry, and I do not think the fruitgrowers will be:come very rich if tho present practice continues so far as the Weilington market is concerned. Prior to this year we either got oversupplies or we got undersupplies ; and if wo received undersupplies, then the market aelvanced to an appreciable extent; but if we received oversupplies the price fell very considerably. If a proper system of control were brought into operation it would mean that a steaely supply could be put on tho market, and a uniform price fixed from, time to time. My opinion is that had a compulsory control system been in operation this year even better prices coulel have been obtained than was the case;, sei far as the fruit was concerned. What the voluntary Control Boarel has to contenel with is the growers outside: consistently sending in fruit and departing from the: fixed values that were maintained on the: Weilington market. J fe:ei. that hael the whole system been under control better values could have been obtained. Mr. Jacobs was asked the question as to whether fruit that was not controlled hael realized as much as the; fruit that was controlled. On the whole I agree: with his reply —that is to say, that generally speaking tho prices have boon lower, but there have' boon instances where the prices have be:e'u higher. To give you an actual instance,: Yesterday there were Stunners that actually realized higher prices than the: controlled prices ; but those Stunners were solel by auction, and the reason why they were: sole! at a higher price was because there were no controlled Stunners available: at the: moment. I fe;e:l exactly the: same as Mr. Jacobs in that we do not get the best fruit, on the Wellington market. As a matter of fact, Wellington has been the dumping-ground for fruit for a, considerable time past. My opinion is that a lowering of the graeh' eif apples for export will have: to take place in order that a greater quantity of fruit can be exported. I feel also that the time is not far distant, when probably American methods will have to be introduced by tho growers in their own interests—that is to say, they will have tei have packing-shed;: feir the grading and blending of the fruit. I believe, under a proper system of control, it would be possible to bring in all the fruit, irrespective of grades, to bo put through the packing-sheds and pooled, and I believe that if this were adopted the success of the fruitgrowers woulel be assured. A question, 1 think, was asked Mr. Gray as to whether it would not be possible to distribute fruit direct from the: grower to the retailer. Well, the buyers do not purchase in sufficient quantities tei have; that come about, and I believe it would be dearer to the retailer to have fruit consigned in that way in Wellington than under the present system of distribution, because there are so many single-case and two- and threecase buyers.

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3. Mr. Forbes] Is the market short of fruit now ? —No. 4. There is ample fruit coming over ? —Yes. 5. A statement was made that Mr. Gray said he had not sufficient to keep his business going ? — I think his answer was misunderstood. He has sufficient fruit, or he is obtaining it, but the supplies are from his own orchard ; but he will have insufficient of his own fruit, unless ho controls it, to last him to the end of the year. 6. How do you account for the very high prices of fruit now ? —They are not higher than usual. 7. But retail shops are selling apples for Bd. a pound ? —That is the extreme. Have: you not noticed lower prices than that ? For instance, I bought tipples myself in town on Saturday last, at sd. a pound. 8. The higher-priced apples are supposed to be the: best, are they not ? —They may bo. However, I prefer to buy what suits mo, and I bought Doughertys at sd. a pound, and could have bought. Stunners at the same figure. 9. Was that in the auction-rooms ? —No. I could not get what I required in the auction-rooms for h'ss than sd. a pound. 10. From the; evidence it appears that the Canterbury marker, is a bit barer this year than it has been in previous years ? —They have been getting suppli s all the time. 11. Do you hanelle only controlled fruit ?—Both controlled and uncontrolled. 12. The control .people: are assured of fair supplies yet to come ? —Yes. 1 think they will run about the: usual time. 13. When do you run out ? —Supplies generally run right through to December. 14. When does the American fruit come in ? —About the end of October or the beginning of November. It will not be quite so early this year, as American shipments from San Francisco will not be: available so soon. 15. You consider that control is thoroughly justified and needed on behalf of the fruitgrowers, and as a representative! of the brokers you elo not think it will interfere with your business ?—Weil, I woulel not like to pass that opinion. Wo have to take, that risk. It might ultimately mean the elimination of the broker ; but in the interests of the grower I believe that control is necessary—that is, lesaving the brokers out of the business altogether. As I have, said, they might ultimately find some means of eliminating the broker. 16. In any case, he generally manages to live, does he not ?—Yes, up to now. 17. The Acting-Chairman] In advocating increased exports, are you speaking in the interests of the growers or from the point of view of the trade ? —I believe it will be in the growers' interest. In a normal season you will have a surplus, and unless the export grade is lowered there will be a glut on the market; you will have too much fruit for home consumption. 18. You consider it would be to your advantage to avoid anything in the shape of a glut ? —Yes. 19. You mentioned that some of the uncontrolled fruit got better prices on one or two occasions ?— At times, yes. 20. What do you think would have been the effect on the market as a whole during the past year if •wc hael had no control in Nelson ?—There would have been a vory bad time. There woulel not have been the system of distribution which, I understand, takes place right through New Zealand. Markets have' been opened up which have never been open to the Nelson fruit industry, and which, I believe, will continue to be open in following seasons under the system of distribution that has been adopted. Eae:h grower would have been dependent on his own efforts to market his fruit. Some, probably, with more: enterprise, woulel have found outside markets, but there would not have been the quantity distributed throughout the: Dominion that was the case this year. The majority would have been sent to the: Wellington market. They se:em to think only of Wellington—that it is their only market. 21. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] How are things in Auokland in oonneotion with the marketing of fruit ? — 1 can only speak of Wellington. 1 would prefer not to pass an opinion on the Auckland market. 22. J suppose they are. subject to gluts at times ?—Yes. F. E. Nottage examined. (No. 24.) 1. The Acting-Chairman] Whom elo you represent? — I am an orohardist in Nelson, anel a, member of the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council. I have had twenty-seven years' experience in the fruit business in Australia anil New Zealanel. I have been askeel to attend the Committee on behalf of the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council, and to give some evidence on behalf of the growers whom the council represents. The: Ne;lson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council comprises a little over twenty district fruitgrowers' associations in the Nelson Province. There are over twenty associations, and a number eif private growers are: affiliated with the: council. About thirty-five of the; larger growers are associated with the council as individuals. The total membership of the associations connected with the council is about six hundred or a little over, and they represent the organizeel section of the Nelson fruitgrowers. In the Nelson. District there are fourteen hundred payers of orchard-tax, but a considerable number of these are small orchardists who would scarcely be: affected by the present Bill. 2. lion. Mr.. Nosworthy] How many are they? —I e:oulel not tell you the exact number, but there are about fourteen hundred payors of orchard-tax, so that the council represents a very considerable section eif the commercial orchardists of the province. We; do not claim that it represents every big grower, but a. very large' proportion are connected either through the leie;al associations eir directly with the Nelson council. The council came into existence at the request of the growers themselves, who hael urged that local organization was necessary. It was not foisted on them as a scheme by any

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erne in particular; and the curious position to-day is that the most prominent supiporters for the setting-up of a council —those who advocated it for a number of years —are to bo found among those; who are at the present time opposing the: council's work. There are a fe:w who were the very first promoters in this matter who have now taken the stand that may appear on the surface to be against the council's work. But wo elo not believe these men are really opposed to the work we are doing, but that it is more a matter of misunderstanding, and wc think that this inquiry should do a great deal to smooth out the difficulty and present a united front for the reform which is necessary. The peiiuts of difference are not so very great, and we believe they are based more on misunderstanding than anything else. In order 1 to make things quite clear to the Committee what our position is—and I speak now as the first representative of tho organized growers of the province—l wish to say that eiur geographical position makes it absolutely necessary for us to go in for organization even if no other province elid so. Wo have, a handicap in Cook Strait which is a very important factor in determining success or failure —profit and loss. We, have no big market at our door ; we must export, almost every case we grow. By " exporting " 1 mean that we must ship out of the province almost the whole of our fruit. There is no either province situated in that way, except perhaps Marlborough, whose interests arc almost ielentical with ours ; but so far as Nelson is concerned, every case must bear the handicap not only of the cost of crossing Cook Strait, but also of the rough handling in transit. It is the opinion of all thinking men that the only way in which we; can place: our industry on a satisfactory basis is by an entirely satisfactory organization,; and the provincial council will be the: very last to claim that the work they have done has solved all difficulties. It has not. It has broken down in several important particulars, and it is largely on account of those failures that we, have thought it necessary to take some different line of action with a view to consolidating the position. We have two or three distinct elements representee! in the Nelson Province. Originally the elistrict was a mixed-farming elistrict with little fruitgrowing in it. The fanners would have a few acres of trees, and would supply local markets and send a little: to Wellington. This was a geioel number of years ago; but graelually fruitgrowing has come to be one of the recognized staple industries of the provineo, and about twelve years ago a very considerable: boom in orchard-planting in Nelson took place. Some thousands of acres were planted, some by resident orchardists, some by syndicates on behalf eif absentee owners. This planting took place in J9ll and 1912 —the greater part of it about 1912 —anel at that time labour conditions were favourable:, and the price of land had not jumped to any absurd degree in the Nelson District. In 1912 laud, though higher than for many years, had not gone: up out of reason, and at the: time I went through the district and found that land could be obtained at prices much lower than those obtaining in most other parts of the Dominion. As the boom increased, the prices of land increaseel also. In 1913, 1914, and 1915 the prices rose to very high figures. What I want to say is that a great, part of the: planting took place when the land had not risen to a very high figure, and when labour was very much cheaper than it is at the present time. Furthermore, wire, fencing-material, manures, and all the things essential to the success of the industry could be obtained at about one-third of what they are at present. Under these conditions planting went ahead rapidly, and there; appeared to be very good chances of success. The question was raised by an orchardist at that time as to whether any estimate hael boon formed of the probable: effect on the new industry just embarked em if we. should have a big European war. Within two ye;ars of that question being asked wo were into the big European war, with the result that every cost in connection with the industry jumped up by leaps anel bounds, leaving the: greiwers to face prohibitive: prices of materials, anel generally giving them a bad time, while the country was stripped of a great part of its labour. Despite these handicaps, however, the great majority of the men. who went into the business are still there. With a courage; that deserves all possible; help they stuck to their guns, and they have not let things go back ; but they realize that haphazard methods must become a thing of the past if they are going ahead. Prices are coming back now to a, point where the growers can do something for themselves, provided the marked for fruit is satisfactory. They are producing fruit, satisfactorily —I do not think there can be any question about that —and 1 would like to submit seime figures in support of it. For a number of years I was an officer eif the; Department of Agriculture; before taking up fruitgrowing in Nelson, and I had the opportunity of seeing fruitgrowing from one: end of Now Zealand to the other, and also in the Commonwealth and in other places. I came tei the conclusion that the Nelson District was well suited for growing export apples, and I am still of that opinion ; and, althemgh 1 know some unsuitable land has been planted, in the main those orchards can suoceed if they are placed on a satisfaevtory footing and market conditions improve. The exports from Nelson in 1912 —that is, from the whole of the. Nelson Province —beffore the now areas oame into bearing, were about 60,000 cases. The war closed down export for a number of years, but since the end eif the war shipping tei overseas markets has been resumed, and during the: past season Nelson e:xported nearly 190,000 cases. The: point 1 wish to make: is that the: lands which have been e.otieleunned as unsuitable for fruitgrowing have produced this year 123,000 oases out eif the total export of 190,000 cases. 3. The Acting-Chairman] Do you mean 123,000 cases were exported ? —Yes, from the Moutero Hills elistrict, which really came into existence from 19.12 onwards. I quote this to sheiw that the areas planted, oven though working under tmfaveiurable: conditions, have: not been failures so far as production is concerned. They have: gone steadily forward. If you take the 123,000 from the total feir the Nelson Province, you will find that the; exports for the rest eif the province remained stationary, while tho Moutero Hills accounted for the whole of the increased e:xport from the Nelson District. What applies to export applies also to tho local markets. A very considerable veilume of fruit from the new areas is fineling its way on to the New Zealand markets. Commencing with the early varieties, it geies right on through the season till November and December, as a considerable proportion is cool stored. There: can be no question but that the disorganization in the Weilington market is largely due

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to tho rapid increase, in production in the areas I refer to. Sonic inquiries are being made as tei who started tlio idea of control in the Nelson District. I do not think I am going outside the correct statement of affairs when I say that the; original suggestion came from an executive meeting of the fruitgrowers' federation. We had again and again referred our difficulties to the federation and asked them to call a meeting to see, if a way could be found of improving the business from a national point of view. Finally a suggestion was made to us that we might consider something along the lines of what was being done by other industries. Copies of the Meat and Dairy Control Bills we;ro forwarded to us, and a meeting of fruitgrowers discussed the matter. This was not a meeting of the provincial council,. but of a district association. The question was referred to the provincial council, who immediately took the matter up, This was in .1.923, and from that date onwards the; matter was continually before the growers of the, Nelson Province. We brought it before the 1923 Dominion Fruitgrowers' Conference, and we were not surpriseel to find that the; other provinces were scarcely ready to discuss the matter ; they had not gone into it at all, and asked us to hold the matter over for a while in order that they might consider it a little more. We did so, in the meantime holding further meetings in our own district. It was again brought up at the 1924 Denninion Conference in May of this year, and on this occasion was heartily endorsed by the conference —with the exception, perhaps, of Otago, who again said thoy had not had time to discuss the Bill. The; Canterbury delegate saiel there hail been opposition in Canterbury, and although he himself, as a member of the federation executive was favourable to it, he could not count on the support of his district; but actually, when it came to voting, the Canterbury representatives' votes were, in favour of the Bill being promoted, although we understood there; was a certain amount of opposition. This carried the Bill up to the time when we; requested the Government to bring in a Bill to consolidate the position and to place the industry on a sound and satisfactory basis. I may say that we die! not arrive at this decision without having made, a good many effeirts in other directions prior to this. From .1910 onwards there have been a scries of co-operative societies brought into existence. Every one of them has gone a certain distance and then it has broken down. With regard to Nelson, there have boon several attempts, but the;y have all broken down. The; Moutere association worked up ejuite a good business, and then found that it had not a sufficient grip on the position to be able to carry on. A number of other co-operative societies have been formed, and each has had a certain run and then broken elown. It may be; asked why these failed. There have; boon quite a number of different reasons, but I think the main cause for the failure of one or two of them due to starting before the orchards were properly matured. Two or three societies started with a lot of fruit from young trees which did not keep very well, and the; societies who attempted tei market it were handicapped by the bad keeping-qualities of the fruit from the young trees. The; brand became; eliscredited, and there, was not sufficient capital or resources to carry on until the difficulty was overcome. That was the cause of the failure of one or two of them, at any rate. Others allowed a gooel proportion of their fruit to go past their own societies and be sold in competition with it. This is undoubtedly a very serious mistake, and one which no society could stand up against. The moment that a temiporary reve;rse occurred some of the members stepped asiele auei sold their fruit outside the. organization, and allowed the loyal men to carry the burden. That has happened in several instances, and particulars coulel be supplied if necessary. Then, e-ven assuming that these efforts had been successful in themselves, none of them governed the whole, position —they were only sectional, and could not have solved alj the difficulties. The hope; was at one; time, that they might be satisfactory anel thus become effective, but, as I have stated before;, through reasons of disloyalty and for other causes they we;re failures, and at the; present they are of no value, in the organization. Our last effort has besen the local control Board of last season. This was promoted at the request of the growers. At several large meetings the suggestion to set up a voluntary control Board was heartily anel emtirely endorsed. The principal reason inducing the fruitgrowers to agree to this was that the Department of Agriculture; gave us a definite assurance that if we woulel stand together for the season, insteael of splitting up into numberless little; factions, they would give; us what we were asking for—■ standardization for the local markets. The Department have; stood up to that promise and have done absolutely splendid work for the growers of Nelson this year. I wish it could be said that the growers have stood by the Department as well as the; Department has stood by the growers, but they have not done so in every instance. The; Department has helped us with local standardization tei a greater extent than any other particular thing that the Government have touched in Nelson. The Nelson growers have benefited a great deal from it. 1 may say that the provincial council, in promoting local control, were; not out to secure absurdly high prices with a view to bleeding the, consumer at all. It is quite possible; for fruit to be; sold at moderate prices and at the same time give, a return to the grower, and the council had this in view. The;re was no wish to create absurdly high prices or tei set up a monopoly. They did wish, however, that every case of fruit sent out of the district should pay its way and leave no debt to be cleared up afte;rwards. They had two or three reasons for this, one of the main ones being the very large liability the- elistrict has to the Government for assistance in the; past. Quite a considerable; sum of money was advanced to growers under the Fruit-preserving Industries Act to build packing-sheds, cool stores, and generally to build up the; organizations in the Nelson District. Then there have been further sums spout in genera] instruction in fruitgrowing, in inspection for the local markets, and alsei inspection of fruit for export; and tho collection of orchard-tax has also been of benefit to us. Altogether we; consider we, have; a very great liability to the country for moneys advanoed to us in the last few years. We are anxious to set our house in oreier so that this money may be; safeguarded and eventually paiel back to the country, and it is for the council, as representing the; organized growers, to see if they cannot find a way of making the position secure, There, are others whe> have helped through thecritical times of the, war, and the; liability of tho grower is very considerable, If they go on in a disorganized condition nothing but disaster can overtake them. These are; tho reasons that have boon t,

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behind the council in sotting up a local control Boarel, and we hope that the local control will be merely a stopping-stone tei one with statutory powers to enable it to keep going. 1 shall not deal with local control Board work, as two representatives of that Board, will bo addressing the Committee later on, but I just wish to give tho history of how it came to be set up. Generally speaking, the last council gave support to it. With regard to the question whether the growers of the province as a whole understood what the council were doing in the matter of the control Board, 1 wish to say that the utmost publicity was given tei it right through. The affiliated associations were notified in every instance, and individual members not connected with the associations were notified by advertisements in the: Press. There was no secrecy about any of the meetings hold. The: interest of the growers was genuine throughout. They turned up in very large numbers at meetings, and at each of the four big provincial meetings held in 1923 anel 1924 unanimous votes wore passed in favour of geiing on with the control Boarel. These are on record in the minutes of the provincial council meetings, and can bo inspected by anybody whei so desires, also the names of those present at the meetings. I state this to show the Committee that control was not a thing decided on at tho last moment by two or three men without elm: publicity. The: growers have had every opjieirtunity of criticizing it and fighting against control. For the 1924 Dominion Conference Nelson sent six delegates to Wellington, all pledged to support the Control Bill. 1. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] What is their attitude now ?—The:y are: as solid for it as ever. The proceedings of the Dominion Conference were reporteel. in the: fruitgrowers' local papers, and the information spread in every possible way as to what happened at the conference, and up to the present time: not one protest has reached the provincial council from any association in the province against the: Bill. No one has approached the: council with a request to get the: Bill withdrawn, nor has any communication of any description reached the council suggesting a withdrawal from the position taken up in 1923 and 1924. This I emote as our authority for coming here; and giving evidence. We are aware; that certain petitions have been circulated within the last ten days against the: Bill, and we know that a certain number of signatures have been obtained—that, of course, you will have all the information about; but we suggest that there is a good deal eif misunderstanding behind the attitude: of certain growers in signing this. During the last three days in particular a good number have come: and asked us for copies of the petition in favour eif the Bill that they may sign them and get their friends to do so. It is quite interesting to note that in many cases the same: signatures will appear on the two petitions, for anel against the: Bill. 1 have had plenty of evidence tei show that there has boon a misunderstanding somewhere, and I have an idea where it came from. The only meetings eif the: provinces in opposition to the Bill have been private meetings. Members of the council were not invited to be present, so we cannot say what happened at those meetings, with the: exception of the Stoke Fruitgrowers' Association, who held their annual meeting and passed a. resolution tei the council afterwards. As an association they favoured the Bill, but they would like the' interests of private trading to be safeguarded. They did not wish private trade to be eliminated. We: think that woulel be disastrous as far as the: present council is concerned, but we do not think a Board could possibly be elected who would seek to out emt private trading. As I said before, the; Stoke fruitgrowers' was the only meeting to notify the council of any objection whatever. Now, in regard to our present a statement was made that the: fruitgrowers' federation could dei all that was required for the fruit industry. Neison has every reason to be pleased with the work that the federation are; doing, it has rendered very useful service inelecd, perhaps more sei than members generally realize. The work of exporting has been admirably carried out, anel Neison can have absolutely nothing tei say against the; present federation as it is carried on at the moment. In the earlier stage:s of the federation there wore difficulties to contend with before it got on its feet, but by keeping it in existence for many years anel improving it it has now become; a very useful organization indeed, and we would be very loath to do anything that woulel break into the: gooel work if, is eloing. However, we: realize that the federation lacks just that final touch that is necessary to consolidate the whole position. They have no definite authority to deal with the larger problems that crop up from time to time;—l refer to such matters as shipping contracts, particularly arrangements with reference; tei the London market. There: is no measure of control at the present time under' the federation except this, and it is an important one : it is a measure eif control that is conferred by the Government guarantee:. The; federation owes its strength and its prominence tei the fact of the Government guarantee, being in existence. I wish entirely to disassociate myself from a statement made: a few days ago that the: Government guarantee was of no use to the industry. It has boon the only thing which has kept the industry geiing and saved men from bankruptcy. It is the: only thing that has kept the: federation in the position that it holds to-day. We: elo not know whether we will always have the' Government guarantee to fall back on —probably not- but if it were: withdrawn eiur position would be this : that the organizatiem which has been of real use to us woulel collapse, as the: others have: done. What we wish is a body to be set up with statutory powers who can maintain and carry on the; good work which the federation have commenced —carry it em e:ven further than the federation have been able to go, oven tei negotiating definite shipping e:emtracts feir us, eir effecting savings for us in the: matter of insurance's, perhaps substantial rebates on account of fruit sold through various agencies at Home, and ultimately the appointment eif an agent in overseas markets. Several conferences have requested the: fruitgrowers' federation to do all these: things ; but it is one thing to pass resolutions and another thing to get six hundred or eight hundred exporters tei fall into line and do it without some " power behind the throne." We think that the federation can still be used feir the greater' part of the executive: work—that a Board need not se:t, up offices and expensive machinery and organization, but that the details could very well be carried out by the existing federation's staff and officers. That is just a suggestion from the Nelsein council, but that is the view r we take of it. We: would not need to scrap the present federation—they have: a great deal of experience;, and no new

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body could hope to handle the details as successfully as they are being handled to-day. I shall not touch on the question of local control in Nelson, because you will have two other members to speak to you later on. Now, with regard to standardization and Government grading : There may be differences of opinion as to whether we could send fruit away with a little less colour than at the present time. With the principle of standardization there is no objection whatever —it has everything in its favour, and nothing, so far as wo know, against it. We believe that it is necessary to maintain a high standard for export, and will support the Department in, the work that they are doing. We have noticed what has been done in Tasmania during the past year, and the results they have obtained from a lower standard in that country, and we have no wish to follow their example. With regard to local standardization, wo arc also in support of it. We, think it can only be brought about by having a Local Control Board. There would be a good many ways of getting out of standardizatiem unless there were some control over the whole organization. We think it would be necessary to confer with, those interested and adopt a reasonable standard for the local markets, but it should be universal and should apply to every one. Another feature in support of export control is that wo believe that control should be taken before the industry gets out of eontrol. It will be more difficult in another year or two, when the export has increased, to take up the reins and successfully handle; the business. More interests will have pushed their way into it, and we will have considerable difficulty in taking the matter up. It would be a comparatively easy matter to take up and to manage effectively now, following on the methods of the federation under the Government guarantee. If, however, the matter is delayed and tho Government guarantee dropped, indiscriminate shipping would probably take place, and tho opportunity for effective control would be lost, or at any rate postponed for a good number of years. Another matter in which control would help us is in definitely administering tho question of the use of suitable cases and packing-materials. From inquiries we. have made recently, and as a result of trial shipments, we are of the opinion that certain classes of cases are much more suitable than others feir export trade, and we think the Board, when set up, could help us a good deal in bringing into use the case:s which prove: most satisfactory for our business. One eif the cases tried during the last season can probably bo used without strawboards or wood-wool, and will land fruit on the; markets of the, world in as good condition as the; local eases when using packing-material. This in itself would effect a saving of about J a case on this item alone, and would go some: way towards paying the export levy. American fruit coining into this country is very seldom packed with any straw-boards or wood-wool whatever. The cases are flexible, and do not injure the fruit to the same extent as the stiff boards we have been accustomed to use. We think that matters of this kind could be looked into by the Board in the interests of the growers. An objection has been made to local and export control on the grounds that it would involve tho setting-up of a large number of elistrict packing-sheds and central packing-sheds through which the growers would be compelled to send their fruit for export. The Nelson council wish to say that they do not believe this move would bo necessary. Packing-shods arc quite satisfactory where the growers are conveniently situated tei one another, and they have done good work, but they are by no means essential for either local markets or overseas shipments. Fully half of the, export fruit from Nelson during the past season has been packed by individual packers in their own sheds with no particular plant or machinery. Their packing is quite e:qual to that of central packing-sheds, and their returns from the, Homo market have been certainly as good as those of the larger organizations. With regard to statements made that it would be better to hand over the business to private enterprise in this country, I would just like: to point out that Tasmania have experienced private enterprise for the whole history of their business, and during the past month the Tasmanian Parliament have had to consider a Bill for voting a, sum of money to the orchardists, who are absolutely and hopelessly " down and out " as a result of their business. This Bill came before the Tasmanian Parliament and was defeated, not because the members of the House wore unsympathetic to the orchardists, but because:, if the money were voted to the fruitgrowers, it would be seized by the proprietary firms to whom they were in debt, and the families of men who were " down and out " would not benefit. That was the reason why it was rejected by the Tasmanian Parliament. Referring to the question whether other countries have control or not, or whether orchard-tax and Government guarantee are in force, it is interesting to note that, in Australia, both State and Federal Parliaments are being petitioned to inaugurate just the things we have hero. That is really a stepping-stone to control in that country. It will take some little time to got legislation through, because the country is not so compact as New Zealand, and it is not so easy for legislators to understand the: problems of the: smaller industries ; but it is interesting to note; that Australia is asking for methods of organization that have proved successful here, Queensland has gone one further and adopted a Control Board for the export of every variety of fruit, and reports from Brisbane indicate that the operations (in the pineapple and citrus industry) are meeting with success. The Board has been in operation for about eighteen months. The question has been raised as to what rights of interference a Board would have if it were set up. We believe the Board woulel be: composed of intelligent men and men able to give reasonable consideration to property. The question of the management of a man's orchard, or when and how he should pack his fruit, would be one that the Board would not be likely to touch for a number of years. They would find quite enough problems to deal with without going into a man's-orchard. If they can secure the: assistance of Government Inspectors, as in the past, then there will be very little for a Control Board to do in the matter of interfering in the: orchards. Tho question of private selling I have already mentioned is a matter that would also depend largely on the amount of intelligence shown by tho Board. No one can say exactly what the Board would find it necessary to do, but we believe, that it would be absurd to curtail the powers of the Board so as to make them absolutely useless —it would be better to drop the Bill altogether, and it would be infinitely more satisfaotory to drop it anel let us know the worst right away.

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Thursday, 18th September, 1924. F. E. Nottage, further examined. (No. 24.) 1, The Acting-Chairman] Will you continue your statement, Mr. Nottage ? —Yes. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I wish to again state that I am not here: expressing my personal opinions on this matter, but I am endeavouring to express the opinions of the organized growers of the Nelson Province, whom I am representing as a member of the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council, which body, as I stated yesterday, have considered the whole question very e;arefully, and have come to the conclusion that a forward movement is necessary with the object of improving the: position. Anything I say is the considered opinion of the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council. I woulel like to say that the movement towards control is in accordance: with the spirit of the age, we will say, with regard to proeiucers' organizations. Wc are not the first body to suggest this matter. We are not suggesting anything radical or e:xtravagant at all. It has been tried with success in other industries, and we believe it could bo adopted with equal success in, our business. We believe that, it, will be: safer- to have: combination brought about in a legitimate way, with the: sanction and approval and under the supervision of Parliament, rather than a trade combine in which the interests of tho consumers may be overlooked entirely. We recognize that the: fruit business canneit carry on successfully unless it caters for what the' public is likely to want, and that is a good article at a reasonable rate, and in our opinion this can best be secured by seitting up a responsible body whieii has some responsibility to others besides themselves. For these reasons we are strongly supporting the principle of control, which has been successful in other industries. Now, the question eif the extra cost of sotting up a new body has been raised. You will notice that the amount of levy fixed for tho export control is at a maximum of 3d. per case, and the question has been asked whether this is necessary, or whether it will inflict a burden on the fruitgrowers. Weil, our opinion is that is will not be a burden, but that, on the contrary, we shall be able to return many times the value of this 3d. per ease to the producers. I would like to draw attention to the fact that Tasmania, without control, pays 3d. per case to tho brokers for merely booking their space for them, and that is in addition to commission charges and incidental handling charges. That 3d. per case is for booking the space alone ; so that the suggested levy of 3d. per case to provide for the upkeep of the Board, which undoubtedly will do many other things besides booking shipping-space, should be of very great advantage to the growers, and should repay them, many times over. In Victoria the charge for the same services as I have mentioned in Tasmania is 4d. per case at the present time, and as far as I know the Victorian growers are not objecting to that payment, although they are receiving less for it titan we hope to receive from the operations of the Control Boarel. With regard to district arrangements, we are of opinion that each district should provide for their own local charges themselves, and that they should not be paid out of the funds collected by the Control Board. Each elistrict sheiuld provide their own funds to meet local needs. Take such districts as Nelson, Otago, Hawke's Bay, and Auckland—they each have their own requirements in this respect, and it is only a fair thing that each should arrange their own finance. The: one district may be able to get through very much cheaper than the other, and they are entitled to that advantage. The control fund should not be bleel to pay extravagant charges for any province. If a province ne:e:ds to expend a particular amount to get their fruit to tho market, well, it is only reasonable that they should make: their arrangements themselves. That is not the affair of the national body ; and wo do not think that the funds raised in this way should be in any way alienated or pledged to the particular requirements of any elistrict for local matters. With rogarei to local control being brought into operation by a vote of the growers, the question has been raised as to whether the levy of 3d. will be a burden on the: growers, and certain figures have been quoted which would seem to show that the se:tting-up of any new organization would necessarily mean an increased cost to the grower, with no corresponding advantage. I do not propose: to deal with that now, however, because there will be speakers who will deal with the local-control question later. I bedeve that the speakers who will follow will satisfy you that the levy feir local control is also a reasonable levy, whieii should be advocated by the growers rather than resisted. With regarel to the position in the; Nelson Province to-day, I have already stated that I am here representing the organized growers of the preivince. Now, lam quite well aware that there are free lances in the province who will differ from me in the statements I am making to-day, and the effect of the' activities of the free lances is to be found in the petitions which are coming before your Committee and before Parliament at the present time. I think these, petitions will explain themselves pretty well. lam not sure that I know about all the: petitions that arc in circulation, but I know that a petition is being signed straight out in support of the Bill, and this will no doubt receive your consideration later. There are no amending clauses or anything at all in that petition — they are: simply asking that this legislation should be placed on the: statute-book. Then there is also a petition, I am given to understand, from the Nelson District, straight out in opposition to the Bill. Also, several growers have indicated to me by mail this morning that a further' petition is in circulation asking for an amendment of the Bill, tho amendment, being the absolute right of private traders to be recognized in some way in the Bill. I have not seen this petition, but a number of growers have assured me that they have signed that petition on the understanding that they are not supporting the amendment only, but that they are in support of the Bill, which they wish to see placed on the statute-book. They wish to see this legislation placed on the statute-book. It may be stateel that this petition is against the Bill, but 1 can bring evidence: in support of the fact that the; petition for amendment has been signed distinctly on the. understanding that it applies to this particular matter only, and that the signatures obtained in this way are not to be used as against the Bill in principle. I wish to make: this clear, because: there, may be some doubt on the matter. Now, certain statements have been brought under my notice of growers having been made to think—

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intelligent men would not give consideration to them, but they may have influenced some —that they are to be placed at the mercy of the Board : that if a grower simply said " 800 " to the Control Board he would be liable to a fine of £50. Statements have been made that they must not criticize or bo in any way opposed to the work of the Control. Board, or the consequences will be serious. I do not think that the average grower needs warning against this sort of thing, but there seem to be> some who are influenced by that kind of statement. Another statement used freely is that under this Bill a representative of the Board can go into the orchard of a grower and order him to pick and export his crop whether he wishes to do so or not, and to put everything else on one: side, anel nonsense of that kind. 2. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] That is the sort of thing that has been circulated'?—Yes, that is the sort of thing that has been circulated ; but I do not think the average grower pays much attention to that kind of thing. Now, referring to the question of control, I woulel like to el raw attention to the Australian Dried Fruits Association, which is perhaps the biggest combination of fruit-producers in the Southern Hemisphere. Like all other branches of the: fruit industry, they have had rather a rough time during the: last few years, and the Commonwealth Parliament at the present time is voting a sum of £200,000 to the Australian Dried Fruits Association in order to stabilize the industry, anel this is being done conditionally only on the producers establishing a Control Boarel on the line's suggested in our Bill. The money will not be granted unless a Control Boarel is established : that is the condition under which that £200,000 is being voted by the Commonwealth Parliament. That is a reasonable safeguard where public money is to be useel; and so far as the Nelson District is concerned —so far as the organized growers in the Nelson District are concerned —we think that the setting-up of a Control Boarel is quite: a reasonable: thing in view of the amount asked for in the matter of assistance at this juncture. Now, with regard to private enterprise;, we have hael speakers who have gone round the country aelvooating and tendering evidence in support of private enterprise' in the Nelson Province for the handling of fruit, and the contention has been made that this would be better in the interests of the producers. The supporters of this idea have gone further and have claimed that it would be better to do without the orchard-tax, cut out the Government guarantee, abolish the fruitgrower's' federation and fruitgrowers organizations generally, and to place the whole business in the hands of private enterprise;. Now, with all due respect to those who have carried on business in that way in this country, the Nelson provincial council differs with the views of those growers. They know they woulel not got every one to agree: with them, but they differ with the views of those growers. They think that for the questions of shipping, insurance, and the purchase of the' raw material to bo placeel in the hands of private enterprise weiulel be a distinctly retrograde; step in this country, and they believe if a vote of the Nelson growers were taken on that question there would be an overwhelming majority in favour of maintaining the growers' organizations and the handling eif our own affairs for ourselves. It is quite easy, sir, in a, time of panicky agitation like this, for growers to carefully consider and weigh up the advantages they have gained during the last few years, and how they have been gradually improving their system of organization, and if they would do that I believe that at least 75 per cent., anel perhaps a much larger percentage, woulel vote for continuing the organization and bettering it if we can. It appears to the provincial council that the effort that is now being made is practically a last desperate effort to bring back a condition of affairs existing at one time in this e:ountry, and in most countries, and it is being backed up by a number of reactionaries anel free: lances who have never been known to support anything. Now, with regard to the Bill as submitted for consideration, Nelson desires to support the Hawke's Bay Association in their request that no poll for local control shoulel be taken unless a petition of 10 per cent, of the growers in any province ask for it. Wo agree with the Hawke's Bay Province that it is an unnecessary expense to call upon a province to take a poll immediately the Bill becomes law. What I am referring to is Part 11, clause 14, subclause (7), lines 45, 46, 47, and 48. We support Hawke's Bay in their request to only take a poll when it is asked for by 10 per cent, of the growers of the province. It would save money and unnecessary trouble and expense. Now, I may say that there' is in the Nelson Province a. strong wish that private trading or contract selling from the producer to the consumer shoulel not be cut out altogether. The Nelson provincial council doe:s not fear that this class of trade would be cut out under the Control Bill,.but some of the growers are uneasy on the point, anel the only amendment that the growers themselves have suggested is that we should ask that consideration be given to this question if at all possible- that the right of contract between the producer and the consumer should not be eliminated altogether. lam not personally afraid of this, anel neither is the Nelson provincial council, because we believe that the men who will bo elected under this Bill will not allow themselves to be foolish enough to cut out so desirable a class of trade. But of course this trade;, along with all others, would need to be regulated. Certain conditions weiulel have to be laid down. I think it, is safe to say that tho great majority of growers would support limited control carried out along moderate lines. They will not ask for free trade in this matter. They recognize that their interests are best safeguarded by a reasonable measure of control. Another matter is the question of fruit inteneled for export. To my mind it is quite clear that fruit intended for export is fruit that, has been submitted to the Government Inspector, or to other responsible officers, for that purpose ; but some of the growers arc anxious that this should be: maele even more clear —that no grower can be ordered to export his fruit unless he: wishes to elo so. I think this objection is raised more among the either provinces than Nelson. The method of exporting fruit is better' understood in Nelson. Now, I would like to say on behalf of Nelson that I am a straight-out supporter of both sections of the Bill. We do not wish it either to be withelrawn or very seriously altered. With the exception of the one or two slight alterations I have suggested, we ask that it shoulel be placeel on the statutebook. We are quite willing to meet in a conciliatory manner any suggested amendments that will

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be for the betterment of the Bill, but we elo not wish either the local control with local option to be elropped, or Dominion-wide control ; and we say that export control must be universal to be: of any use at all. To have one province only under export control weiuld be- worse than useless. We; are entirely opposed to export control only applying to one jiroyince at a time. With reganl to the question of a vote on Dominion export, providing that a Dominion-wide vote of exporters throughout the Dominion be taken, I personally have no objection to this, but I am not speaking now on behalf of the: council. That aspect has not been considered by the council as a se-parate motion ; but I say that so far as I am concerned I have no particular objection to a Dominion-wide: vote: of the exporters. That is my own personal view. Now, with regarei to local control, this should be provincial, with a local-option poll. We elo not think that any province shoulel be forced to take up local control unless they are: quite: satisfied that it is to their interests tei ele> so. On the other hand, we think that no district that woulel gain any advantage shoulel be elebarred by dog-in-the-manger tactics from giving the system a trial. Unelor proper safeguards, and with a vote: of the growers be-fore it comes in, we think that any elistrict should be allowed to work out their own salvation in this way. That is our reason for supporting Part II of the Bill. Then there is the question of representation em the Export Control Board. Speakers from Nelson, I am aware, have: stilted that the: representation offered (o Nelson is insufficient in view eif their proportion of last year's exports. But the: provincial council do not look at it in that way. They are quite satisfied with the representation proposed in the Bill, and think it is adequate, under presemt conditions. They are satisfied with the- safeguards eif the Government nominees being on the Board, anil they feel that there- woulel be; no danger of the rest of the Dominion taking unjust action against the largest contributors to the- export business in the country. It is quite probable that even one intelligent man could attend to Ne-lsem's interests quite satisfactorily. Nelson has no quarrel with the other provinces in connection with this matter, ami we have no objection to provision being maele for alteratiem later should it be found necessary, We recognize the: rights eif minorities in this matter, anil we do not want tei lleienl the Board with our members to the exclusion of the rights eif minorities. Similarly, in dealing with the: voter's qualification, anil the question of whether the provision eif twenty-five cases is sufficient to entitle a man tei a vote em the export control, we woulel like to say that we recognize again the- rights of the smaller people, and that the small man of to-elay may be one- eif the ve:ry big men before' many years are past. Everything must have a beginning, and some of the growers start with a very moderate contribution to export. This year they may have a very small contribution, but in two or three years' time- they may be at the top of the tree, We want to protect the small men, and give them a chance to protect their own interests by having a vote right throughout the piece. Then there is the question of interprovincial pooling. That question has been mentioned, and I may say without any hesitation that Nelson is opposed to interprovincial pooling. Nelson no more wishes to have this than any other district, so thatinterprovincial pooling can be eliminated from the position at present — 3. Are you referring to export ? —Yes, to export. Ido not think that I have any other points to touch upon, but I would just like: in conclusion to point out the following reasons for our support eif the Bill as it has been presented, I want to say that we are out-and-out supporters of both sections of the Bill: I want to say that first. Secondly, we say that export control is essential over the, whole of the Dominion ; anil, thirdly, that decision on local control is in the growers' hands, and we think it is quite safe there. Then there is the election of the Boards : this also is in the, growers' hanels, and it rests with the growers to take an intelligent interest in their business and see that sensible men are elected. If necessary they should take the opportunity of examining these men before they are nominated, and thereby get some idea as to what lines they would work on. Some of tho members of the Local Control Boarel have also to retire each year, and that would be an opportunity of breaking up any undesirable combination set up, and in this way there woulel be a further opportunity of improving and strengthening the Board. We; also say that we are; supporting the Bill because it places us upon a level with other rural producers, and it gives us a standing. We take our place along with the dairy, meat, and other industries to ask a hearing on important questions affecting the welfare of our industry. It brings us into line with the spirit of the age, in which co-operation and a measure of control is being introduced into almost all businesses. And if the fruitgrower does not take: these: principles into his business he may have to take a back seat for some time. I wish to repeat that we would not oppose any moderate amendment to improve the Bill. Moelerate amendments will not be opposed, as we recognize the rights of all parties, and we would weieomo conciliation to overcome knotty problems. I wish to say that even if panicky propaganda defers tho passing of the local-control part of the Bill in Nelson, or any other province, still we think it desirable to have it on the statute-book. We think there is no question at all that with a glutted season of fruit, chaos and disorder will be the position again in the future as it has been in the past, and that if tho growers of the province who have had some measure of control were to go back to the old order of things they would soon be dissatisfied with it, and very soon a unanimous vote would be secured for local control. In conclusion, I wish to thank the Government, on behalf of the Nelson people, for introducing a Bill e>f this description, and ask that this Committee and Parliament go on with the Bill and place it em the statute-book, in order- to make us an e:ffeotive unit amongst the various producers of this Dominion. 4. Do you suggest that the; Nelson Province is in favour of the Bill ? —I do not think the Nelson Province is in favour of it unanimously, but I can go so far as to say that a very big section is unanimous, so far as the provincial council is aware. I may say that there have been meetings at which the members of the council were not present, but the reason why they were not present was because they were not asked to attend—and, of course, it is always manners to wait until one is asked. 5. I suppose the vested interests have been " pulling the wires " in order to hold the meetings referred to ? —I have only seen one advertisement in connection with one of the meetings, and in connection with that meerting those in opposition to the Bill desired certain amendments to be made

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to the Bill. I have no knowledge of any other meetings. Thore was a meeting of the Stoke Fruitgrowers' Association, and that was a regular meeting, properly constituted and held in the ordinary way, and at that meeting a resolution was passed drawing attention to private trading, and as a consequence of that meeting the association waited on tho council and suggested certain amendments, but said they wore: supporters of the Bill. 6. Are you not aware from what you know that those peeiple who signed petitions against the Bill are now signing petitions in favour of it ? —That is so. 7. There must have: been gross misrepresentation when people change from one point of view to the other ? —There was a great deal of misunderstanding in some way or other ; but pe'ople are quite willing to sign petitions now in favour of the Bill, and they are: writing in about the matter. 8. Mr. Corrigan] You say that you represent the organized growers of Nelson ? —Yes. 9. What proportion of the growers do you represent —that is, tho growers who export their fruit ? ■ —I should think I represent 75 per cent, of the exporters. I say without any hesitation whatever that it is not, less than 75 per cent, of the exporters. 10. And they are, as you say, willing to aocept the Bill in its entirety ? —Yes. 11. Even if they cannot get any amendment? —Yes, even if the Bill is not amended at all. I have mentioned one or two amendments, but they are not anxious to defeat the Bill by insisting on those amendments. 12. Would your organization, be in favour of Marlborough being joined up with Nelson instead of being joined up with Hawke's Bay and Wellington ? —I would have no objection whatever, provided the:y do not object. 13. It seems to me from a geographical point of view that Marlborough woulel be: better situated if it was joined up with Nelson ?—As I say, we would not object at all. We havo not, however, conferred with Marlborough on the point, but if they have no objection we; do not mind. 14. It wodd be interesting as well as being of value to the Committee if you coulel obtain information from the fruitgrowers in Marlborough as to whether or not they would prefer being joined up with Neison ? —I will undertake to do that, and there will not be tho .slightest difficulty in obtaining that information. 15. You can quite understand that the conditions operating in Hawke's Bay, Wellington, or even Gisborne: may be different from those existing in Marlborough, and it would appear to any one that Marlborough being linked up with Nelson would be more suitable to them than being joined up with Wellington and Hawke;'s Bay : of course, it is not for me to say, because that is a matter for the people who are interested to take up ? —I may say that we are quite easy in connection with the matter, and if it was suggested that Marlborough should be: joined up with Nelson, anel provided they raise no objection to it, there will bo no objection raised from Nelson. 16. If you can obtain information from Marlborough on the point you could advise the Committee as to the attitude taken up ? —Yes. 17. The Actina-Chairman] Supposing you were a resident of Marlborough, would you prefer to be affiliated with Nelson rather than with any other place, say, across the strait ?—As I say, I would prefer to be affiliated with Nelson, provided Marlborough does not raise any objection. Of course, the:y might not agree to this suggestion because they might possibly obtain better representation by joining up with other districts. 18. As a matter of fact, a witness that gave evidence before this Committee from the Marlborough District made a statement to the effect that Marlborough shoulel be joined up with Nelson ?—lf that is the case, then Nelson will not raise any objeertion about the matter. Geoffrey Sqtjtre Radley examined. (No. 25.) 1. The Acting-Chairman] Whom do you represent?—l am representing Messrs. Radley and Co. (Limited), of Auckland. 2. You wish tei make a statement to the Committee in connection with the: Export Control Bill neiw under consideration ?—Yes. First, of all I want to state that I am engaged in the industry in Auckland as a distributor, and that I am in favour of anything being brought about which is going to improve the industry, as both distributors anel growers realize something shoulel be done to improve the business generally. I want to say, however, that lam not in favour of the: Board consisting of three fruitgrowers, because this woulel give: them full power to dictate as to how the business is tei be' conducted, anel in consequence it would make the industry worse than it is to-day ; anel, moreover, a Boarel having the powers suggested in the Bill may bring trouble on the growers as well as the; distributors, and there is also the likelihood of a Board ceinsisting of all growers being influenced by people outside. At, this stage I would just like to throw some light on a matter that has not been touched on before. As we all know, the Government is not only desirous of assisting the fruitgrowers, but it desires to assist everybody in Now Zealand generally. We will take the case of a city in Ne>w Zealand wherein there are only two distributors operating, and one distributor handles 60 per cent, of the fruit and the other distributor only handles 40 per cent, of it ; that is to say, one firm is receiving the support of 60 per cent, of the growers, whereas the other firm is receiving the support of only 40 per cent, of tho growers. Supposing this Bill goes through as it stands—that is, so far as the local-control part of it, is concerned —it would possibly mean that 60 per cent, of the growers who were supporting eineffirin woulel vote the 40 per cent, into local control —that is, if the 40 per cent, of the growers were against it.- The Board would then be set up as a consequence of this bare majority, and it woulel naturally say—or it could say —that it would bo to the advantage of the growers in the province to support the' one firm to act as distributors ; and it would mean that the other firm, for many years

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engaged in the business, would probably have a hard time, or would have: to go out of business altogether, as they could not receive the support of the growers that had previously done business with them. Then again, supposing theiy wanted to monopolize the business, what would be the position ? As 1 have already said, the Board would comprise three growers, and if the:y got local control they could then bring the 40 per cent, of the growers into line with the rest of the growers, and do what they wanted to do. 3. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] You surely do not seriously suggest that anything like that woulel happen ?—I do seriously suggest that that could happen if the: Board so desired. 4. But that would be an extreme case ?—I may say that, knowing the position, it is not an extreme e;ase:. As I have already said, I am in favour of anything that is going to benefit the industry, and what we want to do is to stabilize it. I submit that the duty of the: Government is tei protect every one. I would also like to mention that the distributors' interest in the: industry is nearly half a million pounds, and perhaps a good eleal of that money was invested before a lot of the orchards were; planted. What I would suggest is that a Board shoulel consist of a grower, representing the industry, a Government representative to act as chairman, and a distributor to act on that Board. 5. 1 take it that that is for the Local Control Board ?—Yes ; and by that means the grower and the: distributor woulel be: brought together with a view to dealing with all matters connected with the industry ; and, as I say, the Government representative would be present,to act as chairman. 6. Woulel not the growers be more likely to be influenced by the business man's actions ?—I dei not think all the, growers woulel be influenced in that way, although some of them might be, influenced by his actions. If the Board comprised the representatives I have stated, anel tho Government's representative was the chairman, in the event of a deadlock taking place: he woulel have; the: castingvote in every case. Another matter that I wish tei touch on is that if at any time; 10 per cent, of the producers in any provincial district wish to have another poll it will be: agreed tei if a petition is submitted. I also observe in the Bill that if 25 per cent, of the: producers petition the Minister a poll may be taken to disestablish the Board. 1 Consider that if it is necessary to have a petition submitted by 25 per cent, of the: producers to disestablish the Boarel it should take: a similar percentage. to get the poll feir local control. Another matter that I wish to point out to the Committee is in connection with the bare: majority. Tei my mind it woulel be: very unfair for 51 per e;ent. eif the: fruitgrowers to vote 49 per cent, of them into something they do not want. A bare: majority on a thing like this 7. The same: thing applies in connection with the Dairy Control Beiard and the: Meat Control Board ? —That may be so; but I say again that for 51 per cent, of tho growers to vote 49 per cent, into something they do not want is rather hard. Another thing 1 want to draw the attention of the Committee to is that, so far as the Meat Control Board and the: Dairy Control Board are: concerned, there is no local control of butter and meat. 8. Are you supporting the export-control portion of this Bill ?—That does not interest mo at all. 9. Are you disposed towards it or are you not ? —As a matter of fact, 1 have' not e'ver read it. I would like: to emphasize this point again : that it woulel be: necessary to obtain a petition signed by 10 per cent, of the producers tei obtain a vote anel 25 per cent, of the producers tei take: it, away. 1 think the: percentage shoulel be the same in each case, ; anel, so far as the majority is concerned, I strongly oppose that, because I think it should be something greater than three-fifths, anel not a bare majority. 10. Mr. Forbes] You are a broker, are you not ? —Yes, that is so. 11. Are, yeiu satisfied with what the voluntary control Board did so far as the Nelson Province is concerned ? —My business is situated in Auckland, and, in consequence, not a great deal of business is performed with Nelson. No doubt the; Wellington broker's will be: able to give you all the information you desire on that point, because, as I say, I have had very little to do with the controlled fruit in Auckland. 12. Wc had evidence: from a fruitgrower' in Auckland, and he saiel that he' represented two thousand fruitgrowers and they were unanimously in faveiur of the; Bill : have you heard any difference of opinion with respect to the Bill ? —There is a contradiction of opinion among the fruitgrowers throughout the Dominion : some want it and others do not. 13. Do you think they all understand the Bill—has it been properly circulated ? —1 dei not think so. The only circulation it has had was from members of the associations visiting Wellington em conference business. 14. Are you aware that Mr. Izard is president of the Auckland Fruitgrowers' Association and is also a member eif tho New Zealand Fruitgrowers' Federation, and he said that he represented two thousanel fruitgrowers and all of them were in favour of the; Bill ?—Ye;s. 15. Have you ascertained in the course of your business whether there was any differences eif opinion to any great extent sei far as the Bill is concerned ?—They all have their conflicting opinions the: same as they do olsewhere. I think Mr. Izard is president of the Henderson Associatiem, whie;h has one of the biggest memberships of any association, anel if he gave evidence on those lines in favour of it probably it would be correct. 16. Is tho Auckland marker/ in a bad state just now ? —No, the wheile of the market is well regulated as a consequence of the cool stores, and we hold that fruit from three: to six months if necessary. Our price for apples ex cool store does not vary 2s. for tho whole season. 17. Do you get very large ejuantities of apples from the south ? —I may say that we do not grow the Stunner variety in Auckland at all, and that class of apple is exclusively drawn from Hawke's Bay anel Nelson. So far as the Delicious apples are concerned, we, are getting an increased quantity each year, and from now onwareis we shall not have to import apples of that variety from other place's.

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18. Are you satisfied that the growers receive a fair deal so far as the marketing is concerned ? — In answer to that question I wish to say that six years ago there were seven firms engaged in the business, and as a consequence eif the keen competition amemgst them to serve the growers as well as possible all of them with the exception of two firms have gone out of business altogether. J think both the: firms carry the: growers to a large: extent and finance them, because we are aware that the growers are not in a position to hold fruit for a period of from three to six months, and we either buy the fruit straight out or wo advance: them the money to carry on ; and in order to show you what we do for the growers I would like to say that wo have financed several people to the extent of £500 and £1,000 each. In the, event of this local control being brought into existence and only one linn handling the fruit the:se people might lose the advantages the:y enjoyed in the past. 19. In your opinion, then, this local control would not improve the position of the growers ?- Of course, it just depends on how the Board is worked. If it was only possible to be sure of the personnel of this Board it might be different. You might get a Boarel who want to carry out some radical reforms ; on the other hand, you might get a Board consisting of men who have had a very wide experience, and consequently will do a great de:al of good. As a business man I recognize that the apple trade in Now Zealanel this year has been exceptionally good. Howe:ver, in an average yeiar it is most unprofitable from everybody's point of view, and, so far as the distributors are concerned, they have to work very hard to effect sales, and the commission is very low. 20. Tho public complain that they cannot get apples at a reasonable price ? —That is a matter of opinion. In New Zealand we: think that the fruit is dear, but whenever any one: has gone: away from Now Zealand and returned again ho has always saiel that it is cheaper than anywhere else in the: world. At one: time I thought the retailer was making too much money, but Ido not think that is the: case' now. I may say alsei that I happen tp know a man in Auckland who started a case-distributing business, and when he started he; saiel that if he bought apphis at ss. per case at the market he would sell them at 7s. per case:, anel he: imagined when he put his advertisement in tho paper that he would have a queue of people waiting to buy tho fruit, but such was not the: case. The position is that the average, working-man is unable tei buy fruit by the case, anel he: can only afford to buy a few shillings' worth of fruit per week. I may say that the average: fruiterer has a family in the business, and lie is working from 6 o'clock in the: morning until ,1 1 o'clock at night, anel you only have to look at any one: eif these individuals tei see: whether he: is making a big income or not. If you were to take: the: wdiite men who run a business in Auckland 1 submit that there are: not four eif them who are making fail 1 returns. It is the: Chinaman whei understands the fruit business host, and emly by applying themselves for long hours anel getting cheap labour arc they able to make: a fair margin of profit. A goeiel many people hold the view that the orchardist is making toei much money. 21. I do not think many people think they are making much money out of the fruit business, but it, is the: overhead expenses that make the price more than it ought to be ?—Yes, there; is that point of view about it. As I have: already said, lam absolutely in favour of anything that is going to improve the fruit industry and make it bettor than it is to-day. I think also that provision should be: made: in this Bill to protect the: present distributors throughout New Zealand. I honestly think that something should be; done in this direction, because they have a lot of money in their businesses. From my point of view 1 think it weiuld be: right to have a Board consisting of one Government representative, one representative of the fruitgrower, and one representative of the distributors, in order to se:e: that fair play is given to all. 22. On the same lines as the Meat Control Board and the Dairy Export Control Board ? —Yes. I weiuld suggest that the- brokers throughout New Zealand should appoint one representative on each Beiarel in each district —that is, if the local-cemtrol system is carried. 23. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] I understand that two firms really control the fruit business in Aue;kland ? —Yes, there are one or two small wholesalers engaged in the: business, but I shoulel say that we two control 90 per cent, eif the: business in Auckland. 24. You have no suggestions to make in regard to the export-control portion of the Bill ? —No, I have no suggestions to make in regard to that portion of the Bill. 25. Do you not think that the fruit inelustry is in a very disorganized state, judging from what you have seen ? —It may be in a disorganized state, but the growers themselves years ago should have: organizeel the system of packing and the standardization of the fruit. In my opinion overproduction is the present cause of all this trouble. You do not hear anything about control from the planters, the orange-growers, or the peach-growers, because: there is no overproduction in these fruits as there is in apples. As a matter of fact there is overproduction of apples the world over at the present time; and so far as British Columbia is concerned, the: season has just opened, and private co-operative firms are willing to senel to New Zealand any quantity of fruit provided they can get an aelvanco of 90 cents per box. That shows that there is too much production at the present moment, because, as I say, British Columbia is willing to send fruit to Ne:w Zealand and will be glad to get rid of it, 26. I suppose your firm, anel the other firm you have: mentioned, are: the two firms representing vested interests in Auckland, because you not only run the business, but you also advance memey tei the growers ? —Yes, that is so. We, do all we possibly can in the way of making advances to the growers. We do what we can on behalf of the growers. 27. Do you think there would be any difference, so far as vested interests are concerned under this fruit-control, as compared with what has happened in connection with the meat-control anel dairy-control ? —Well, all I e:an say is that if this Bill is passed there will be a very strong effort maele' at once in Auckland to put propaganda round to get 60 per cent, of the' growers in favour of local control, and then it would bo suggested at once that one firm should do the distributing. The majority must rule, and that is tho position.

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28. The Acting-Chairman] Doeis your firm do any exporting from Auckland ?—No. There is very little: exporting done from Auckland. There: has be;cn a certain amount of exporting eleme from Auckland to Honolulu, but sei far as the English and South American markets are; concerned, the: Auckland growers have a good local market in Auckland, and exporting does not worry them to any great extent. 29. In connection with competition from Nelson, Hawke's Bay, and cither provinces, would it be in the interests of your firm if Nelson, for instance, was to export more than they do now ?—No ; it would not make any difference to our interests. It would not be: against our interests to have more apples in New Zealand, it is to our interests to soil apples from the other provinces. 30. In other weirds, you approve of nothing being done to encourage export ? — Yes, looking at it from a selfish point of view. J. Allan examined. (No. 26.) 1. The Acting-Chairman] What is your full, name, Mr. Allan ?—James Allan. 2. Anel your address ? —Tasman, Nelson. 3. Will you make a statement ?—Yes, sir. My credentials are as follow :I am chairman of the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council; I am, the representative on the, Federation Beiard for Nelson ; and lam also a member of the Nelson Voluntary Fruit-control Boarel. I may say that I have: been nine years an orchardist. Previous to that, for about forty years, I was a dairy-farmer. I was a promoter and director of the first dairy factory in the South Island, and I remember quite well the elifficultios that dairying was in in those days. We did not have any more faith in dairying in those days than we have in our fruit industry to-day ; and 1 am proud of the fact- speaking from a dairyfarmer point of vie:w—that we: are now exporting dairy-produce to the value of something like: from £16,000,000 to £18,000,000 sterling a year. Now, I want, sir, first of all, to refer to the fruit industry as we have it in the Nelson Provinoe. For a great many years —I do not know how long—fruitgrowing has been carried on in tho older districts of the province—Riwaka on the one side and Stoke: on the: other side. But lying between these two districts there is an area of low ridge: land which is very poor land—so poor that it was never used for agricultural purposes. A few sheep run on it, and it is so poor that it would not keep one sheep to five acres. 1 have heard men say that the:y could have bought this land, previous to the fruit boom, at half a crown an acre:. The land is exceedingly poor. But it was found that it would grow apple-trees fairly well, and for forestry Ido not know of any place in New Zealand that would beat it. The syndicates that started the fruit boom realized the possibilities of this land being turned into orchard lands, and they got out a very clever system of advertising, with a good deal of embellishment about it: I will not say anything more than that in regard to it. And they got out a system of supervising by which they could say to persons buying the land that the orchards would be looked after, and that the ground would be broken up, and the orchards planted and cared for until they were producing fruit. . With such a system as that the inducement was for a man who had no acquaintance with' the: land, or no acquaintance with orcharding, to buy those sections, and to get them going under this supervising system. The result was that a large; number of men- from Invercargill, from Dunedin, from Christchurch, from Wellington, and from towns farther north—took up this land ; and the result of it has been, gentlemen, that the advertising expectations were not fulfilled, and to-day, after from twelve to fourteen years, these men are having to step out of the land and leave it. I should say that there are about 2,000 acres of land being dealt with in that way. One-third of it has already been cut out, another third of it is in process of being cut out, and I see no hope whatever that the remaining third will not follow suit. Ido not think it is possible, after an orchard comes to the bearing stage, for any supervising system of caring for the orchards to be a success. These men have spent not loss than £200,000 on that area, and they are simply walking out of it to-day. A man just this last week has cut down 90 acres that he has spent ten years on. It was not all his own ; he was doing some supervising work for others as well. Now, that sort of thing is going on, and will go on until these orchards are cleaned right out. That position, gentlemen, has brought a lot of discredit on fruitgrowing in the Nelson Province. But there is also another side of the question, and it is to this other side that I want to draw your attention. There are about 3,500 acres of that land taken up by men who came and took up the land, and who have grown with their orchards. While their orchards were growing into orchards they became orchardists. They know what they arc doing. These men are struggling now to reach that point at which their orchards will give them a payable return, and the only difficulty they have to contend with is the question of marketing. They look forward, assured from what their experience has been in past years, to at least establishing the industry and making it a paying concern. I want you gentlemen to look at the matter in this way : that the land I have been referring to is useless—it is absoluteiy valueless except for forestry purposes. These men have gone in there and taken up that land in order to devote it to apple-growing. In the event of the industry failing it means that that elistrict, which has been turned 'from a wilderness into a garden, is simply going to be deserted ; but there is no fear of that from a production point of view. In order to got you closely into touch with some of the orchards I would like to quote to you some figures relating to the quantity of fruit produced. First of all, I will tako an orchard in which I am interested, comprising 35 acres, and containing 5,600 trees. Its crop this year was 6,300 cases, and of that amount 3,770 were exported and 2,530 were put into the, local market. That gives a general average of 1| cases per tree, which is somewhat low ; but the trees arc still vigorously growing, and I have no fear as to the future. Now, the; total amount received—l got the last returns this morning, and previously I had taken out the last shipment on the average of the rest, which gave me £1,480 —was £1,302. That is the gross return after expenses are paid—of course, at f.o.b. Nelson for the exported fruit. For the local fruit

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I have averaged it at 3s. 9d. The local fruit has only been two-thirds sold, and I believe one-third is still in the local stores. Out of that 3s. 9d. I have my packing charges to pay, and in all probability I will net about Is. 3d. ; but the total is £1,776. 4. Mr. Corrigan] I take it that the £1,302 is what you got for the exported fruit ?—Yes, that is so. 5. What docs the total amount for the local fruit come to ? —lt comes to £474, or a grand total of £1,776. 6. That is the gross proceeds of the orchard for the ye>ar ? — Yes. On the other side there are the packing-costs, and they come to £896 165., and the cultural cost comes to £840. There is a credit balaijce left on that for the year's work of £40. Now, the cultural costs include spraying, team-work, interest on capital. 7. What rate of interest do you charge on your capital invested ?—Six per cent. 8. After paying 6 per cent, on the capital invested you still show a margin eif £40 ?—Yes. Now, 1 will take that orchard again to carry my illustration a little: further. That orchard is a portion of an area of 250 acres, anel that area has its community packing-shed, and has packed out this year 30,000 cases. Now, 1 want you to compare that with a elairy farm. A farm would carry perhaps 100 cows, perhaps more, and tho gross output would be, say, £2,500. This area producing 30,000 cases at the Government guaranteed price of Id. per pound would give: £5,000 gross for the same area of lanel that would not keep one cow. I put that before you, gentlemen, because: I would like you to realize: that these men in struggling to better their position are struggling against tho district becoming an absolute failure: ; because, unless they can make this thing pay they are unable: to grow anything else. 1 may say that that land will not grow stone-fruit. It is pip-fruit soil ; and with the help we have received from the Cawthron Institute in the: matter eif showing the' soil's ne:od, as well as frenn the Government in the matter eif financial assistance, we: are very hopeful that we shall make it a very successful pip-fruit-growing district. Now, I wish tei cefer to evidence that was given at, the beginning of this inquiry by Messrs. Turner anel Reynolds with regard tei provincial pooling. Mr. Nottage: has told you —and I agree with him in that respe.ct—that Nelson eloe:s not want interprovinoial pooling any more than Otagei does. Then, with regard to the question of voting, Ido not think that Nelson will raise any serious objection there, anel we: woulel prefer the poll to be' as it is. Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Sissons made reference to my visit, to Otago. The position was that I was going elown to Otago on business of my own, anel at the; federation meeting the:y asked me;, while- I was in Dunedin, would 1 take a short visit up the Otagei Central anel explain the' attitude eif Neison with regarel to control. I undertook to do so, and we; hael several meetings, and they were, well attended, with the exception of that at Cromwell, where the weather preived very rough, However, the result of those meetings was that a unanimous resolution was passed at all of them in favour eif the Control Bill. Mi: Aliport wante:el no Bill, no Inspectors, no guarantee, but wanted British liberty. I want to say just a weird with regard to that. Mr. Aliport was associated with the; syndicate that enticed these men on to that lanel. He was one of the; early supervisors, and stuck to it for a time', but, got out of it in plenty eif time—like the proverbial rat. Mr. Allpeirt wants British liberty. Gentlemen, British liberty on this man's lines means " Do what you like: " ; British liberty as I understand it is " Do to your neighbour as you would have your neighbour elo to you." Ido not know that I can say very much more in regarel tei this evidence. Mr. McKc.c held to the position that this orchard lanel was suitable. 1 agree: with Mr. McKee, but I say, gentlemen, that it can never be done in the way these syndicates elid it. They got the' land advertiseel and sole! in order that the synelicates might benefit. If the land hael developed steadily from a small beginning, then that land would never have: hael the tale tolel about it that has been told. Now I want to say a few words about Nelson's voluntary control. I may say that control, as we are asking for it, had its eirigin on the 26th May, 1923, at a meeting held at Meitueka. I, as a member of the: Board for the conference of fruitgrowers, was in the chair. We hael a big sheaf of remits to look eive;r, tei approve or otherwise:, regarding all phases of the inelustry tei be: considered at the Dominion conference a fortnight later. We were up against, a crisis :we were' getting nothing for the fruit, anel we: were going to get nothing for our local fruit. The; position really meant a crisis in the industry that, so far as the Nelson District was ooncerned, looked very much like' making an end of it. Wc brusheei these remits aside. A motion came before; the meeting asking the Government to reinstate the guarantee, and to do it for three years —1923, 1924, anel 1925—anel tei insist on a Control Bill. That was passed unanimously : there were no dissentients in the meeting. It was one of the largest meetings of fruitgrowers that has ever been held in Motuoka. They elected that day eight deie'gates to go to the Dominion conference to urge the conference to take this matter up. These' eight delegates kept together throughout the conference in advocating the reinstatement eif the guarantee' anel the' control of our fruit. Conference agreed, but modified the control to some extent. I cannot give you the particulars of that modification. What had been done was reported back tei the meeting at Nelson. That meeting disagreed with the measure of modification proposed by the conference, and as a result they gave the provincial council a mandate to gei on with the work -tei seek for the guarantee and to get a Control Bill through. Colonel Guay anel myself we're a delegation from the; council to come: over to meet the gentlemen here assembled in Parliament. The result was that the Government saw the: straits we were in anel gave us the' guarantee' for the two seasons. Owing to the exigencies of Parliament, I suppeise, the Control Bill which was brought forward was not passed. Now, gentlemen, when that Bill failed last year we, as a council, were up against a position like this : The previous season had been ruinous even the guarantee reinstated for 1923 had not more: than just relieved the position— and the question arose, Are we: going to dei something, or are we; going to let things drift? It, meant geiing right through another season waiting fen- the Control Bill to bebrought before Parliament again, or doing something ourselves to try anel better the position. Itwas agreed to make an attempt to get a voluntary control. Colonel Gray and myself were sent out

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for the purpose of ascertaining what the growers thought about this, and we spoke at meetings right, through the district. We received a, very unanimous response. We, found growers representing 380,000 cases of the previous year's crop willing to enroll themselves under this voluntary control. When we: reported back to the council, the: council immediately appointed Colonel Gray and myself as a Control Board under this voluntary control. We mapped out our work in this way : that we would go in for four planks—-first, the stanelardization of the fruit ; second, the regulation of the: fruit, tei market; third, the dropping of the auction system anel the institution of price-lists varying in accordance with the value in the market; anel fourth, advertising, in order, as far as possible, to increase consumption. Stanelardization was our first weirk. We: got out amongst the: growers anel met, them at various meetings. I may mention that we hael first arranged with the Horticultural Department for suitable regulations. We submitted these to the growers, anel with wonderful unanimity these regulations were accepted. Arrangements wore then made with the three cool store's which exist at. the; three different ports of Nelson. Here, gentlemen, 1 want to say a, word about this. Neison is differently situated from any other province in this —that it has no home market; all its fruit, has to be; shipped out of Nelson, and it must go out at one or other of the three: ports. We arranged for the' storage: and handling eif the fruit from each elistrict, and distributed it. in accordance with the needs of the market, and, to a large extent, that part of the programme has been wonderfully successful. Wo have, of course, been accused of making lots of mistaken ; they told us before we started that there would be mistakes. The position, I take it, is that the biggest mistake of the lot belongs to the fruitgrowers themselves. lean give you instances which will show you just, exactly what I mean. In the beginning of the season, the first apple that we, as a Control Board, placed on the market was the Worcester Pearmain ; it is an apple, however, that loses its value as soon as the Cox's come alemg. We saiel to the growers, " Get on your Worcester Peannains as soon as you can ; we will hold up the Cox's for a few elays. Unfortunately for us, however, growers who were: not under our control and who had Cox's saiel, " This is just, our chance." They got in with their Cox's anel killed the effort we were making. Another case of the same kind, to a large: extent, happened in mid-season, in what we call our Jonathan season. I have been in Neilson for nine year's, and until this season I had not seen one go through in which there had not been a glut in the market which has broken down prices : growers woulel give away the fruit absolutely for nothing during that period. Now, we came eiver to Wellington and saw that the floors were full. We conferred with the auctioneers, with the result that we held back the Jonathans in oreler to save the marked from breaking. Here again, outside fruit from our own province came in, so that it was a case of our own men flooding the market and tei some' extent spoiling our effort. We: held up these Jonathans, and as a result wo succeeded in getting past that period without breaking values, but we could not raise the price because our own men oversupplied the market. Now, I am. not going to say much about the selling side of things —Colonel Gray will be able tei e'xplain matters very much more clearly than I could—l have not had much to do with that, f will say this, gentlemen, that, while I realize that we have failed to some extent in this— that we have not got just the; prices expeoted—we: certainly have got for the growers something better than they had received in previous years. There: has been a certain amount of wastage this year because the fruit has been brought to us overripe—the taking of ripe: apples has given us a very largo wastage. Fortunately for us, the Government assistance in the, way of inspection by Mr. Waters and the help of the Cawthron people have shown us tho causes of our troubles ; we have not suffered in eiur storage: arrangements through flesh-collapse, but, wc have: suffered from fruit-spot and over ripeness. Ido not think there is any necessity for me, to say anything further as far as the Council is concerned. As chairman I will say that we have been helped by the fruitgrowers of the province— that they have been unitedly behind our efforts to get a Control Bill. We, have not had any opposition expressed to us as a council. None: of those interests that have worked against us during the last week or two have shown face until just recently. We realize that it is largely the vested interests that, are; doing it, anel that it depends very much on getting this Bill through or otherwise as to what tho future is geiing tei be:. I feel perfectly certain of this : that if the; growers on this poor lanel are allowed to work out their own destiny they will do it successfully. I may say, after my former experience, I believe that they can and will do that. I believe that vested interests will fight against us. Mr. Hamilton told you that we do not need the guarantee —that Nelson was growing apples for the: sake: of the' guarantee. But on the hills we are growing more than half of the fruit, sent out of this Dominion our export was 123,000 out of 240,000 oases. Riwaka, which started this trouble anel had so much to say about it, exported 5,900 ; Ngatimoti exported 2,121 ; Motueka exported 2,366 ; the hills elistrict exported 123,000, and that 123,000 is more than the, export of the Dominion for the' previous year. Nothing could more: clearly show the vitality of the industry. Gentlemen, as I said hen; last year, without the, assistance of tho guarantee these hill settlers coulel not achieve such results, and without doubt the: industry will be heavily handicapped unless organization is achieved. 9. Mr. Corrigan] In connection with the trip south : I understood you to say that there was absolutely no opposition—at least, to the Fruit Control Bill —that was what you were advocating ?— Perhaps I omitted to say that exception was taken to two points—one was the interprovinoial pooling, the other point was that a maximum charge should be levied. Thejse two points really formed the objections at those meetings. 10. You wore advocating provincial pooling, and, of course, they were against, the levy of 3d. ? — The;y wanted a maximum of 3d. fixed. 11. I presume it was the Moutere Hills district that you have, been alluding to. Coulel you give us any idea what it costs for manure to successfully grow apples ? —The system which has been advocated by the Cawthron people entails an expenditure for lime: of £1 15s. The cost of a ton of lime is £1 15s. —that is, delivered to the ground ; adding cost of phosphates, £3 55., would bring the total up to £5 per acre ; and one dressing is regarded as sufficient for five years. We sow lupins in each year, in January.

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12. You manure only the areas under the trees ? —That is so. 13. What is the cost per acre of growing the lupins ? —lt really means the cost of the seed, sowing, and disking. We plough the lupins in with our spring ploughing in August. 14. Mr. Langstone] Is this year's Bill similar tei the one propeised last ye:ar ? —I do not think it, is the same, but I could not give you the differences. 15. Last year's Bill was not brought down to the House at all: have the growers discussed it ? — Yes. I may say this with regard tei the' Bill : that after the conference had modified it we; elid not consider that we hael any right to ask for it except under local option. 16. When you were down in Centra] Otago die! the people seem fully cognizant of the provisions of the Bill ? —They had a. synopsis eif it which they hael read, whie:h they understood, and on which they questioned me. ' 17. This year's Bill ?—Yes. 18. I had a le:tter from Mr. Waigth down there: he. attended the meeting that was held in Roxburgh ? —He was present. 19. Did he veite in favour of the Bill ? —Yes. 20. He wrote telling me' they were going to support the Bill ?—To be perfectly fair, I may say I have; had a letter from Mr. Michelle, in whieii he says that representations have considerably modified the views of many of the growers right through the district with regarel to the; le:vy and the possibility of a second cost in connection with shipping. He did not say more than that it had considerably modified the attitude of the growers. 21. When you discussed the; Bill did you explain the levy ? —No explanation was needed, because they had a synopsis. They askeel that the le;vy shoulel not, exceed 3d. 22. There is a statement to the effceit that only two small groups from Otagei opposed the Bill. Is there anybody from Otagei in favour of the' Bill ? —They were all in favour. At one meeting there was one: man who saiel he eliel not agree with control on principle, but when it, came' to the vote he did not vote. 23. No delegate from Otago in favour of the Bill has been befeiro the Committee ? —I have a. letter from Mr. Waigth, who is the secretary of the Otago Co-operative Assoeiation, in which he state's that his association favours the Bill, with the exception of the' interprovineial pooling anel the' levy of 3d. 24. Were you responsible feir this going into the: papers ? Ido not know what it is. 25. It, is a statement tei the effeot that two comparatively small petitions, e:ach containing some extravagant and extraordinary statements, have been presented in opposition to the Bill ?—I did not put in that account, but 1 know it was put in in the: name eif the: council with my consent. 26. Now, I heard it stated by one delegate that the Id. per pounel guarantee was not necessary : coulel the growers carry on without the Government guarantee ?—No ; that elistrict on tho hills weiuld go down altogether. 27. Whei were: the people mainly responsible for the opening-up of this poor land ? Are some eif these people opponents of the Bill to-day ? —Ye:s. Mr. McKee was one of them, anel Mr. Aliport was another. They were on different syndicates, I know that Mr. McKee has been chairman eif the Tasman syndicate. I did not have anything to do with the buying of land from them at all. That, lanel is very largely proving successful, and if it gets the necessary support to carry on will be the nucleus of the pip-fruit industry of the Nelson Province. 28. What quantity of fruit did the Control Board handle this year ? —I think Colonel Gray will be able to give you the figures —I would refer you to him. 29. Unless there is some better organization the industry is going to be ruined ?—Very largely so : that is my opinion—that unless we are going to got some: better system a great many growers — a large proportion of them —are going to walk out altogether. In connection with Central Otago, I received a telegram from Mr. Bennetts saying that he supports the' Bill with the same amendments as the others. 30. Is it a fact that the same people: who signed petitions against the Bill are now signing petitions in favour: what has brought about this change, of attitude ? —I think misrepresentation on the part of the first petitioners. 31. Mr. Langstone] You believe that, so far as looking after the fruit is concerned, the grower should not be interfered with ? —I would not interfere' in the: slightest degree, and I elo not, think he shemld be: interfered with. 32. With regard to the: levy : Mr. Turner said that it cost them something like 2|-d. a case to handle the: fruit which they were; exporting. Do you think that by having a national organization it would cost more or less, or could it be eleme for the 2Jd. ?- I take: it that the 2Jd. a case in Otagei is largely because it has a special organization that does the shipping. With regard to Neison, the shipping is done at a cost of |d, a case. 33. Do you use local wood in all your cases ? —We are importing case's from Canada this ye:ar. 34. Are they cheaper than the: e:ases supplied locally ? —The cost is about the same:, but importing from Canada has resulted in reducing the local prices slightly. 35. Could the sawmillers utilize some of the waste wood for making oases, anel if they did that could they possibly make them cheaper than the imported cases ?—They were always representing to us that, they coulel not elo so, but the impecunious condition of the fruitgrowers makes it necessary to pay for their cases right on the fruit seasem. The: result, is that a great deal eif the slab timber is not available, and when it, comes to the rush of cutting the case's there: is not sufficient quantity feir the purpose'. In the past, our local sawmillers' association has been getting the: timber from the West Coast ; and they submitted a, proposal last year that if we woulel fina,ne;e' the: timber they could supply the' e:ase's with greater certainty although not at a cheaper rate. That we were able' to do to seime

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extent, but not as fully as wo would have liked. I think that with proper organization there is no doubt whatever that the cost could be reduced, both in regard to obtaining supplies and better transport. Transport is one of our greatest difficulties. Wo find that the carrying of our fruit, oven to Wellington, in the holds of these little boats is doing an incredible amount of damage —the temperature rises to such a degree that it means very quick ripening. We feel certain that before we can get satisfactory conditions in this respect arrangements will have to bo made: with the shipping company for better transport. 36. Do you obtain the cases already nailed ?—We: get them in shucks bound up in wire. 37. Are you in favour of local control ? —Yes. 38. You believe that great improvement coulel be made even in the flush of the season ?—Yes, by more concerted action in the placing of fruit for later use in tho cool stores. If left to the individual there is no plan for carrying through to the winter. If there were better control I can see the stores filled up with fruit under conditions that would save wastage anel make the supply carry on right through the winter. 39. Is there plenty of cool-storage space ? —We have quite sufficient so far as Nelson is concerned at the present time. Local loading in Neison means that we have got to do a lot of fruit-cooling in our present storage: space. So far as Neison is concerned I think we: have: sufficient storage to carry forward for a winter supply. 40. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] Are you of opinion, Mr. Allan, that the, growers have the right to combine and deal with their own produce, and that they resent interference, from outside sources in connection with the marketing and disposing of their fruit ?—There is no lack of organization on the part of the people who handle the fruit —it is the growers themselves who are disorganized. Colonel Gray examined. (No. 27.) 1. The Acting-Chairman] What is your name ? —Colonel Clulow Gray, Motuoka. 2. Do you wish to make a statement ? —I did not expect to give evidence this morning, so that I have not brought certain figure's with me. With your permission, therefore;, gentlemen, I will postpone certain parts of the evidence until to-morrow,. I would, however, now like to deal with the local control, with which my name has been bandied about. lam a stranger in this country and have been here about three years ; and lot mc say quite plainly that the only reason that has impelled me: to take a hand in trying to straighten things out is the present unsatisfactory state of affairs. Our bitter' opponents of local control, are the people who have been in the province longest; by that I mean that although they have had twelve years in which to envisage the overproduction caused by the opening-up of the Tasman district, no sort of effort has been made to meet it. A groat many people have: boon full of suggestions, but nobody has been prepared to come forward and take; the responsibility of trying tei carry thorn out. Now, there is a vast difference between ideas and the putting of them into execution. In the past certain efforts were made in this direction by two companies, both of which came to an untimely end. The: result of these efforts has been to make what we have tried to do this year more difficult than over, because of the logae:y of distrust, which it is most difficult to overcome. When we: first went out to get this voluntary control going, the one thing which practically every orchardist said was this : "It is not a bad idea, but we have been had so often." Now, that is not an encouraging spirit to work upon ; and it seems that everything that has been done has been scrutinized from that point of view—that is to say, from the destructive instead of from the constructive point of view. The: faults this year in the local control have been many, and 1 would venture to say that I know them better than any growers in the province, because I have been responsible for some of them. I would ask you to envisage this fact: that this business has grown, and that we were called upon to combat it after twelve years of chaos and do the best that wc could under the circumstances. I woulel say quite plainly that the great majority of the mistakes and difficulties of this year's efforts can be obviated in the future. The greatest complaint against local control is slowness of payment. Ido not attend to the accounts, but as thoy are dealt with in my office lam responsible for them. Within the last six weeks the accounting system has been completely reorganized, and cheques now go out every eight or ten days instead of every five or six weeks ; that is a matter of office organization and administration. A great ele:al of tho fruit that came: to us this year had perforce to be held back in store so as not to overcrowel the market. Much of it has given us a lot of trouble and has gone wrong : we: could only do the best that could be: done under the circumstances. But there have been other factors which have operated against local control. Under the private-trading clause in the. voluntary agreement quite a number of growers have gone forth, have sold tho best sizes, and sent me: the balance: —notably the oversized fruit. I mention this so as to bring you to the question of private: traeling. Now, I would like to make it absolutely clear that if I have the misfortune uf having to do with the coming Board I would do my utmost to help every legitimate private trader in the province. There are growers who have an actual private trade, which I would define in this way —direct sale to a retailer or consumer, where the retailer or consumer is certain that a particular man will supply the: best kind of fruit; that is to say, that John Brown and Co., of Wellington, buy George Smith's apples because they know from experience that George Smith give;s them decent stuff. That is my idea eif a real definition of " private trading." Two or three days ago I received a resolution to be put before tho Committee, which 1 will bring down to-morrow, asking for the safeguarding of the private trade, and that provision should be: made in tho Bill, itself to enable: growers to carry on a private trade. Now, I am greatly in agreement with this, but I would suggest that if too broad a definition is made in the Bill it will result in the playing-off of growers one against the: other by buyers. It happened last ye;ar, when a, large number

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of growers went forth to sell their own fruit to tw.o or three shops in the same towns, that they were played off one against the other ; but private trade proper I woulel regard as the very best method of selling, anel it should be protected and assisted in every way. There are growers in the province who will toll you —and two or three gentlemen are prepared to verify this —that they have received the greatest help from this year's Board in carrying on their private trade : when their own supplies ran out I supplied thorn and they kept their private trade together. I will deal further with the question of local control when lam able to submit the actual figures to-morrow. One other point is the duration of the Local Board. As it, stands at the moment, once elected, it lasts for three years. Now, owing to various reasons, the personnel question, so far as Nelson is concerned, is a burning one, and the Board's success or failure depends almost entirely upon the: men who are put on to it. I believe —anel I make: the suggestion with all responsibility -that much of the uneasiness caused by the length of time that the Boarel remains in existence would be avoided if all three members of the; Board were: bound to retire and offer themselves for re-election at the end of the first year. My belief is that it is not, the principle of control that orchardists would cjuarrel with, but with one or more members of the Beiard who might be obnoxious to them. If they knew that they had it in their power to remove these members at the expiration of twelve months it would give a greater sense eif security, I believe that if that happened, certainly by the second year you would obtain a Board that would be acceptable to the: province as a whole. The main effort of local control this year has been to save the situation in the Wellington market —the danger-spot for Nelson —to prevent Nelson fruit being thrown haphazard in any quantities on to the market. I say quite definitely that, if control is not exercised I believe it will ruin any private trade that may now be in existence ; the reason being that the prices given on the floor eif the Wellington auction-rooms are so low that the up-country buyer finds it infinitely cheaper to come to Wellington and buy the stuff by auction off the floor than he does to buy it f.o.b. Neison ports. It has been urged that by having control thousands of cases of rather poor but perfectly goeiel fruit will be stopped going to the public, and that the public will not be able to ge;t cheap fruit. I am going to suggest that that is absolute nonsense. Supposing the fruit were solel in the Weilington auction-reioms at 2s. or 2s. 6d. a case the price in the shops woulel be: exactly the same as it is to-day ; and the reason is that when buying cheap fruit under tho hammer the, retailer knows that he is taking a greater risk. In Nelson we lose thousands of pounds owing to the condition of our fruit when it arrives at the other end. Here it is not quite so bad, though I have seen fruit hopelessly bruised on the floor of the Wellington auction-rooms ; but in distant places the complaints are insistent. Ido not think the shipping company is entirely to blame —I believe that the damage is cumulative:; but I would say this quite frankly: that no individual orchardist is going to have any weight with the steamship oompanies, railways, or other carriers. The only chance of ameliorating the conditions under which our fruit is now carried will be by having some special body tei speak for the: growers as a whole. Friday, 19th September, 1924. A. McKee, further examined. (No. 28.) 1. The Chairman] Do you wish to give furthc evidence ?—Yes, if I may. I woulel like to say this : that, while giving evidence, the other elay the Minister asked Mr. Campbell if he would question me:. He did so, but he made a statement also, and I would ask you to allow me te: reply tei that. Mr. Campbell stated that 1 had given the Committee to understand that the: Department were setting a, very high and unreasonable standard. I wish to say that I made no such statement. What I said in my evidence was this : that I thoroughly agreed with the export standard set for fancy grade fruit, anel urged that it shoulel be maintained. But what I diel suggest was this : that there, should be a relaxation of the regulations in regard to the export, of second-graele: fruit, and I put on the table samples eif apples- beautiful apples that had stood the test of cool storage for six months- anel pointed out that, under the regulations an apple with black-spot, although it was a mere pin-prick, was not allowed to be exported. We are prohibited from exporting otherwise high-grade fruit because eif a, small blemish like; that. That is the point I want to make, and I say that it is in the inte ests of everybody if the Department will relax on that by classifying pin-prick or very slight black-spot as an ordinary blemish, and allow same; to be exported as second grade With regarel to two of the four apples on the table, Mr. Campbell said they were not black-spot, but that docs not matter. The point is this : the graders work rapidly when putting the fruit through the machine, anel they cannot stop to put apples under 1 the microscope, so that black-spot and black-speck are discarded for export, and held back for the local marker,. This is at the root of all our trouble. If we; were' allowed to export this fruit instead of glutting the local market with it, our difficulties would be largely solved, to my mind. Everybody must admit that the real cause of Nelson's unfortunate position is due; tei overproduction for the local market. If we were allowed to export as second grade this really good, sound, edible fruit with a slight skin-blemish in no way affecting soundness and value:, the local market woulel be relieved of a. considerable quantity of apple's, which 1 believe would fetch higher prices on the Home marker,. 2. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] You made a statement here that those apples were thrown out for black-spot ? —I may have made that statement, but that is immaterial. What T put on the table was reject fruit. 3. The Acting-Chairman] You mean, Mr. McKee, that it should be allowable feir lower-grade fruit to be exported at the risk of the esxporter and without any Government guarantee; ? Yes. The export of this fruit would, I think, do more to steady the local market than half a. eleizen Control Boards would be likely to elo.

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J. A. Campbell (in reply). (No. 29.) 1. The Chairman] Do yeiu wish to reply to the statement of Mr. McKee ? —Yes. I may say that he misrepresents the case again. I did not say that Mr. McKee hael given the Committee to understand that the Department were serting a very high and unreasonable standard. The fruit was alleged to be not acceptable when it was acceptable for export —there is no eprostion about that; and the fruit he brings this morning is a different class altogether from the fruit presented the otherday. That was fruit we like to get for export, and it was on that ground I saiel Mr. McKee misrepresented the standard. However, what is the remedy if he is not satisfied with the Department's standard ? Why not set up a Control Board, where the growers would have a bigger say on the question of the: standard than they have now ? G. A. Green examined. (No. 30.) I. The, Chairman] Wheini do you represent ? —i am the honorary secretary of the Auckland Fruitgrowers' Council (Limited), a registered boely affiliated with the New "Zealand Fruitgrowers' Federation. The; Council consists of some ten affiliated local associations. 1 have an orchard of my own at Huapai, managed by my son, a returned soldier. I have been connected with the fruit industry ever since I was a boy, and my father before me: was a fruitgrower in the Auckland Province. One of my brothers is at tho present time, 1 believe, the largest producer of pip-fruit in the' Auckland Province. To show that my connection is fairly extensive I may say I assisted in the organization of the first fruitgrowers' conference ever helel in the North Island, in the year 1893. As a result of that conference an Auckland Fruitgrowers' Union, composed of about fourteen local, associations, was formed, anel flourished for nearly fifteen years. Then I was one: of three who organized in.the early " nineties" the: first export of fruit that ever left New Zealand—-fifteen thousand case:s anel with the exception eif one small lot that was damaged in transit, every case arrived on the Ileum: market in perfect condition. I know the general conditions of fruitgrowing throughout New Zealanel from Otago Central to Whangarei, and I can endorse, from personal observation and knowledge, of present eonditiems, all the evidence in favour of the: Control Beiard that has been given, especially as regards conditions in the Neison District. As far as tho Control Bill is concerned, 1 wish to endorse it in its entirety. As secretary of the Auckland Fruitgrowers' Council, I know the feeling of the organized growers in the Aueklanei District, and. I can positively state, that, as a body, the:y stand for the principle: of the control clauses in the. Bill, not because they have a great export at the present time, but because they have a potential export, and also because, they are deeply interested in regulating the fruit export and supply of New Ze:aland, for the: reason that the Aueklanei District receives a very large proportion of its pip-fruit from Nelson and Hawlre's Bay. Local control under the: conditions provided in the Bill is also approved, beoause the growers realize that it, gives them an eipportunity of wateiiing the control carried on and then deoiding by vote: whether the:y will come under it or not. Therefore on those grounds the Auckland Fruitgrowers' Council support the Bill as it stands. With regard to the: question of pooling, that might certainly be opposed by the Auckland growers as they are in favour of each district running its own pool. I have; seen the ups and downs of the fruit industry over a groat many ye:ars, about forty years —some witnesses have spoken eif ten years' experience—and what I would like: to impress upon the Committee is this: that there has boon no improvement as far as marketing is concerneel in all those forty years. There have boon great improvements in other directions undoubtedly, such as stanelardization, Government control of export, improvements in cases, &e:., but in the actual marketing eif fruit the; very same conditions apply that applied forty years ago. The: things my father battled against when I was a boy we: are up against now. Occasionally we get fair prices, but generally we get very small ones. What is going on in the Moutero Hills district in the: destruction of orchards I saw going on in Auckland years ago. At one time we supplied a very large quantity of the: fruit required in Dunedin. My father used to ship thousands of cases to Dunedin when there was a market there, and we also supplied fruit to the Auckland and Wellington markets at that time;. Tasmania was our chief competitor, The result- of the fluctuating conditions of th: fruit-market and the steadily rising prices of butterfat has been that hundreds of acres of apple-orchards have become dairying-lands, and where there were five or six flourishing assoeiations in the Lower- and Upper Waikato in the " nineties," to-day there is neit one. The whole of those areas are neiw dairyinglands. The same: thing has gone em in North Aueklanei, at Whangarei, and either places. As a result of the uncontrolled market conditions it has been found more profitable in many instances to revert to dairying. Tho same thing will, occur in Auckland again, as well as else:where, unless better conditions can bo produced. For wo are up against the very same thing in eiur district as Nelson is. Where my orehard is situateel there is a large area of young trees coming along growing on poor gum-land, and yet the growers who are devoting their best attention to it, anel who know their work, are not " producing one-eighth of a bushel," as stated to be the case- in seime districts, but some eif them are produoing up to 6 and 8 bushels per tree. A mean average would probably be about 2 bushels per tree on good, well-oared-for orchards at profit. But unelor those eonditiems there is at, the present time no profit from many of the varieties, because, although our market is a large one— there are: over two hundred thousand people in the Auckland District who are: buyers of fruit—yet there is a tremendous amount of fruit placed on the market from outside the province;, very often below cost, which makes it very hard for our local growers, and the owners of these young orchards will bo in trouble unless there is an improvement in the marketing conditions. Now, with regarel to the quality of tho Auckland fruit, that does not require any justification on my part. The fact that for

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years Auckland fruit on the open market f.o.b. for South America has brought Is. and upwards more per bushel than the average, prices is ample proof eif its quality. There is another point I want to mention, and that is this : that soils have a groat deal more to do with the quality of the fruit than the climate. It does not matter whether you are in the south or in tho north, you will very often finel land within half a mile eif a first-class orchard area that is quite unsuitable for growing the same class of fruit. Now, with regard to the Auckland District and its over two thousand registered growers, it has been said that they are very small growers. Quite so, largely ; but I submit that this Bill is intended to bo in the interests of the small grower as well as the big grower ; and, further, many of theise small growers are men making a living for themselves and for their families, and some are: employing labour, on 5 to 8 acres, because they go in for intensive cultivation. Anybody who can take, land which twenty years ago was not worth £1 an acre and produce a good living, if reasonable prices e:an be got, on sto 8 acres, I consider he is doing this country a service. Now, I understand tho value: of the total sales of fruit passing through the hands of the Auckland merchants varies but is beitween £800,000 and £1,000,000 per annum. I am told that 20 per cent, of this represents tho proportion of outside fruit imported, while probably another 20 per cent, is brought, into the province from other districts ; so you can soc that the fruit produced by those two theiusand growers is quite a fair'amount—certainly weil over £500,000 worth. In conclusion 1 wish to say that I beiieve: local control is absolutely essential to the successful marketing of fruit. In a draft which I brought down to the conference in 1893 there, were: control proposals contained in it, but the growers at that time were, not ready for them and turned them down. 1 believe that the fruit industry to-day in Now Zealand would have been in a very different position had the organization in those days undertaken some sort of voluntary control. But as it is to-day, we: feel that the Bill contains a elawn of hope, in that it provides a means of trying out a method of standardization anel control of our products. We are, in a time when every other organization is controlling its products, and we want to be able: tei control ours right across the sea anel fight feir them in the world's markets, which are being fought over by either large: organizations. I fe:e:l we: shall have no standing at all —wo shall never'develop our industry except on tho lines of organized effort. 2. Mr. Hawken] Do you expert much from Auckland now ? —No, not at the present time. Yeiu see, the position is this : we have: a very large and fast-growing population, with the result that there is being imported into Auokland about £200,000 worth of pip and stone fruits from outside: provinces. Under those: conditions there would be no possible inducement to attempt any large exporting. The only export which is naturally ours, and which we should cater for, is the Honolulu market; but on account of the ielea having got abroad that Auckland is infested with the mealy bug—though this insect occurs in Honolulu itself — our fruit is not accepted for the Honolulu market. Thus this export, whieih woulel otherwise gei from Auckland, geie:s from other portions of New Zealand. However, many of our growers are looking forward tei exporting certain varieties in the ne:ar future. 3. Are the; orchardists in Aueklanei eleiing reasonably well ?—1 eould not toll you that. It is up and down very much on account of the, want of regulation. You can quite understand that if we get a short supply eif stone-fruit from Hawke's Bay, then the local stone-fruit growers ge:t a good run ; but if there is a good year and a lot eif fruit is put on our market from outside, then the: market is demoralized. Wo want some form of market-control which would enable a proper distribution eif fruit to be, made. lam not one eif those: whei believe; we have overproduction at the present time, for I know that there are thousands of homes in this land which do not get enough fruit. The great question is how to distribute, it —that is what wo want to solve. The average grower who gets 2s. 2d. a case: netf e-oulel not pay his way. 4. Mr. Corrigan] What elei you consider would bo a payable price to the: jiroducer ? —I believe that with improved methods eif growing we: coulel elo it at the: price the late Mr. Hickson (whei founded one of the largest fruit-farms in Now Zealand) said. In 1881.he: stated that we: could produce: fruit packed in the orchard at lei. a pound. Now, I believe that if there was a ready market, anel the whole of the crop were taken off at that price, it could be done still. The; grower ought to got Id. a pound at least free> of all expenses and charges, 5. Abemt eight or ten years ago there: was a rush up to the Henderson district for apple-growing : have those people made a success of it ?—So far as growing the fruit is concerned, there is no more successful settlement in Ne:w Zealand. Where there were about thirty or forty settlers in the whole: district, today there are two thousand people largely engaged in fruit-culture. There are two telephone exchanges on Huapai Block, one: with eighty and the other with ninety subscribers. There is a central scheiol with ninety children, and the four schools em the outskirts have doubled their attendances. I may say, however, that many of those men are still earning money outside to support their eirchards, anel many orchards which ought to be: profitable: have: not paid their way on account of the low p>rice:s realized. 6. Could you give the Committee: any idea as to whether those: settlers want this Bill or not ? — This matter has been represented to them, and their feeling is clearly in favour of control. In fact, remits in favour of control have: emanated from their association for three years in succession. With regard to local control they are not unanimous, but they are unanimous in this : that the Bill should provide facilities for them to vote themselves into local control if they wish. 7. Mr. Langstone] With regarel to the: marketing of fruit, is it a fact that consignments are sent, from Nelson to Auckland to certain auctioneers while local supplies are suffioient for the requirements eif the district, with consequent glutting of the markets up there ?—Yes, that is commonly tho case. There is no form of control at all at present, and the fruit is simply dumped in. For instance, a short time ago in winter' a man from Nelson bought up five hundred cases, and disposeel of the whole lot at ridiculous prices—ss. and 6s. a case, 1 believe.

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8. Well, do you think control woulel be: able to get over that difficulty ? —Yes ; I believe that if we, hael local control all over New Zealand the Control Boards could work together, and would be in a position to know exactly what fruit was available from week to week. They would also know from experience what each separate market could take, and feed it so that there would bo proper distribution. You would get very few occasions where there would be such a glut that the fruit could not be sold at prices that would leave a margin for the grower. I think the whole thing in control is that distribution would be regulated to meet the demand. 9. Have you any knowledge of fruit coming from Auckland to Weilington in very large quantities and competing here against the: Neilson fruit ? —No. At the present time there is a good market in Auckland. Some may be done by individual growers, but this would be only in stone-fruits, because no'one, would risk sending pip-fruits down here in the summer. 10. If a Control Board were formed, would they indiscriminately send fruit into different markets to any person ordering it, or would thesy try and organize it so that just sufficient was sent to meet requirements ? —That I cannot say ; but if a Control Board carried out its functions it would so arrange matters that the distribution should be fair. 11. Is there any danger that they would e:xploit the consumer by keeping the prices unreasonably high ?—No, Ido not think so. It woulel be difficult to imagine retail fruit higher than it is to-day, while: it would, be hard to imagine: greiwers getting less average: prices than they are getting to-day. The; way out can be discovered only by a proper organized boely, who, after two or throe years' experience, having all the facts before: them, can put their fingers on the weak spots and say " This is where we can give the public the benefit, as a result of our organization." 12. The Acting-Chairman (Mr. R. P. Hudson — Sir George Hunter having retired)] There are two thousanel fruitgrowers in the Auckland Province ; what proportion of those do you represent ?—Just abeiut half of them belong to our organizeiel associations. Auckland is a very large province, and greiwers are scattered about all over the; place, from away up near the North Cape; almost down to Gisborne. Our organization e:ovcrs the ground from Whangarei right through to Thames and Tauranga- -roughly, about a thousand growers. 13. Would it be to the advantage of the; fruitgrower to keep retail prices up to what they are at present, or to have them lower or higher ? —lt would be an advantage to reduce prices to the consumer, if possible. 14. If there were proper control, do you think one of its functions would be to reduce prices to the consumer ? —Yes, because it would eliminate a good deal of the overhejael expenses. I believe one of the greatest losses in overhead is the tremendous cost of retail shops. I have it on tho best authority that the average: rental of shops is £1 per foot per week. When you consider tho large: number of shops there are, you will see what this glut is taking out of tho industry. It seems to me that some means of getting rid of the bulk of our fruit without using those expensive buildings should be discovered. Colonel Gray further examined. (No. 31.) 1. The Chairman] Do you wish tei continue your evidence ? —Yes. In giving evidence yesterday morning 1 stated that I woulel postpone mentioning figures so that, if questioned, I might have the figures with me tei .substantiate; what I was going to say. Dealing again for a moment with that, part of the Bill whie;h refers to local control, and dealing with the operations of the voluntary Control Beiard in Nelson this season, I wish to say that the total sale:s made up to date,—or, rather, up to the end eif August—were 101,937 cases, and of that total just under 50 per cent, were sold at f.o.b. prices direct to the' retailers. Now, the province, since 1 have been in it, has been insistent in its demands tei sell its fruit direct to the retailer or the consumer, as against putting it through the Wellington auotion-rooms, and this year we succeeded in disposing of just half the quantity sold up to date in that way. The significance of those figures, 1 would suggest, lies in this : that although control may not be of assistance to a certain number—and quite a small number—of big growers, who could handle their fruit as well as it could be handled by the Board, that 50 per cent, of the fruit sold (i.e., at f.o.b. prices) was the: fruit of the; ordinary working orchardist, and ho is the: man to whose benefit our efforts are being devoted. To my mind it is not the man with a comparatively long purse and big areas whei needs assistance, but it is the: ordinary working orchardist, living on his orchard ; and I weiulel venture to say, despite statements made to the contrary, that more people have benefited by their fruit being sold in that way this year than ever: before. I weiuld suggest to you that it is not possible for the ordinary working orchardist to got out and sell fruit to retailers —he has too much to do in looking after his orchard ; and anybody working out a system which will benefit the ordinary orchardist is to my mind working on the right lines. Now, despite the success in the selling of fruit, we have had failure's in this way : that in a great number of cases the condition of fruit on its arrival at the purchaser has been so bael that allowance's have had to be made against it. 1 would put it to you that the loss in prices caused by those allowances is not the fault of the Control Board or the principle on which it is working—it is the fault of the: condition of the fruit ; and that condition is very largely brought about by bad handling and transport conditions. One: either point with regard to the operations of this year's Board : Very careful recorels have been kept, aid it has been possible to get a, fairly accurate line on tho quantity of fruit which can bo sent to the Wellington auction-market without overcrowding. 1 lay great stress on the Wellington market because, so far as the Nelson Province is concerned, that is our danger-spot. A very large quantity of fruit goes through there, and if there is too much, with a consequent glut and drop in prices, it is almost impossible to sell fruit f.o.b. Nelson ports, because it pays the country dealers to come to Wellington, buy their fruit cheaply, and take it up country. There is one' habit or custom of the auctioneer

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which I venture to say is a grave: elisadvantage to the fruitgrower, and that is the principle: of " buying in." The excuse for this is that it is a means of clearing the floor and saving the: fruit ; but in actual practice that does not apply. I will venture to put it to you this way : We, will take it that the ave:rage price on the floor of fruit under the hammer is 7s. a case, and the broker buys in at 7s. a case. Now, when he pays the orchardist for that fruit he: deducts from the 7s. the cost of getting tho fruit to the: market, and 7| per cent, commission, amounting to about Is. 9d. ; so that, although buying in in order to sell again for his own profit, he, only finds out of his pocket about ss. 3d. ; and it is that difference in prices which enables him to sell fruit up country at prices which we cannot look at. Ho also makes two profits. Say he soils again at 6s. a case, he makes 9d. a case on his own sale anel 1\ per cent, on the 7s. out of tho orchardist. Now, if he is a straight-out bona fide commission agent or broker I maintain that he has no right to do that. May I refer for one moment to the various petitions about this Bill which have been put before, us ? I mentioned yesterelay that a large number of growers who had signed the original petition against the Bill had since signed the petition for it on the grounds that they had misunderstood what was tolel them ; and in making a statement of that sort one has to be in a position to prove it. I have here, several letters from orchardists saying that in signing the original petition they had not understood the: position, anel that they wore now signing our petition in favour of the Bill. I will not go through these and comment on them, and f will not, disclose the names, but will simply hand them to the Committee and ask you to scrutinize them very carefully. You. will find a large number of names on both petitions, and 1 would say that the first petition is comparatively valueless. One word in regard to the Tasman settlement. lam not a, hills grower, although in my first year out here I was on the hills. There have been various suggestions maele that the sooner these men are smothered and put out of their misery the better. However, I have one or two figures here which may be of interest to you. There are, roughly, 4,000 acres on the Tasman Hills opened up and turned into orchards. If you take the average cost to the purchaser as £20 per acre —and I believe that is reasonably accurate—that 4,000 acres shows an original cost of £80,000. Interest on that sum at 5 per cent, for ten years, £40,000. Then, the breaking-up of the land, the cost of trees anel planting out, I am given to understand, was approximately £12 per acre, or £48,000. The cost of maintenance, efec., for the first five years, when the trees were not bearing and diel not need the: same amount of care that they do now, averageel £4 ss. an acre, which represents £85,000. Cultivating, spraying, &c,, for the second five years averaged £1,2 an acre, or £240,000. Now, the' cost of 200 houses in that settlement, many of which were built with the assistance of the Advance's to Settlers Department, at £400 each is £80,000. Interest on that sum for five years at 5 per cent, is £4,000. Government advances and assistance in building cool stores, packing-sheds, &c, is estimated at £10,000. That represents £519,000. Now I will ask a, question which I hope is not discourteous : Whei got that money ? The' orchardists certainly did not ; and I woulel say with all due respect that the business men and till' commercial interests of Nelson got the bulk of it. In addition to that there; are also sums paid out by the orchardists for case's, and for labour eluring packing anil grading ; for wire;, paper, anil wood-wool ; and for transporting their fruit from the orchards down to the: wharves ; and I think that in the: last four or five: years these charges could be reckoned at very nearly another half-million pounds. There is a million pounds sterling in that settlement, and unless we can turn the settlement into a reasonable success it is going to stay there', and the men are: going to be beggared—there is no other word for it, If these men go uneler they go back to their own trades and their own callings, eight, nine, and ten years behind the time's. I venture to say that if by any human moans we> can work towarels success for them, however many mistakes it takes, we should rlei it. I elo not believe, anel J would say quite frankly, that it is possible: tei put this business right, using the wore! " right "in a broad sense, in one: or two years. If we bar! this Bill, and twenty other Bills, we are' only going to got out of the mire by a slow process, step by step. There: will be many mistakes anel many casualties ; but f elo believe that with the: existence of this Bill there is a chance of saving the bulk of the growers. It is my honest conviction that if we de) not get a system, but we go on as we; were' going on in my first two years in this country, there is nothing that will save the place. It is said, " Let them go, and those: who are left will benefit. Let them get out and we will come back to our own." I disagree with that entirely. The financial institutions, with the exception of the Government, do not look upon the orchardists with any particular favour, and every man who goes " broke "is automatically restricting the credit of those who are left; and I believe if there is anything in the nature of a crash in Nedson, those left will find that the. banks will simply not look at them at all in anything in the nature, of an overdraft except on personal security. Ido not want to suggest that if we de) get this Bill we oan get what wo like in the way of overdrafts, but I believe if the banks see the orchardists doing something to help themselves, they are far more: likedy to give us seime assistance : that is only ordinary common-sense. I will not say any more in regard to local control, because you will have heard what other witnesses have said, and I hope you will cross-examine me just as thoroughly as you like. In regard to the Bill, I have be:e:n asked to put two suggestions before the Committee : one refers to the protection of the private trader, anel the other refers partly to the duration of the Be>ard, and partly to its powers. There is a feeling in certain parts of the province that the moment the Board came into existence it could walk into a man's orchard and do anything it pleased. These orchardists had not road and had not studied the Bill, and they jumped to conclusions ; but I gave them my word I would bring this before the Committee. The following is an extract from a letter received from the secretary of the Stoke Fruitgrowers' Association : " At a fully attended meeting e>f the members of the Stoke Fruitgrowers' Association held in Stoke, on the 29th August, the following resolution was put before the meeting and passed unanimously : ' That Colonel Gray anel Mr. Nottage, delegates from the Nelson Provincial Council to Wellington, be instructed to represent to the Minister in charge of the-Control Bill the urgent need that a clause be, inserted in the; Bill to protect the interests of growers trading privately e>r selling their produce by private treaty, provided such sale's are made at prices not lower than those fixed by the Control Board.' '

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2. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] Was that the notorious meeting ?—No. In connection with the famous meeting mentioned, it was a meeting called by growers who were opponents of the Bill. 1 was not present, but what I am going to say was told me by two men who were present and who checked each other in every detail. There were twenty-six people present, and a direct vote was taken for and against the Bill, with the result that fifteen were opposed to the Bill and eleven voted for it. lam given to understand that three out of the fifteen were not orchard-owners. That being somewhat a failure, a further vote was taken on an amendment couched in practically the same firms as the above, and the amendment was carried. Now, it is only fair to say that afterwards a Stoke grower got up anel saiel that, as a genuine private trader, ho had taken out returns for 1923 and 1924, and he found that this ye;ar he: was an average of Is. 6d. a case: higher on his returns as compared with last year, and he ascribed this not to the fact that the crop was short, but to the operations of the Local Control Boarel. I have a letter here with reference tei paragraph (a), subsection (1), section 9. It is from the secretary of the Inlet Fruitgrowers' Association, and it reads as follows : " Members cannot understanel the necessity for the insertion in that paragraph of the words ' grading ' anel ' packing'—they consider that the Board only assumes control once the; fruit is graded, packed, and passed by the Government Inspector. There is a, fear that the' Board's power is such that they could direct any particular grower to have his fruit packed at some; specified place (this is in particular reference to growers not at present packing in groups) ; also that they coulel give instructions as to actual grading and packing, such as to colour requirement, or packing narrow way, which would cause considerable: confusion and endless complaint. Certainly, as the: Bill now reads, those, powers seem to be given, and it is considered that some limitation or more definite ruling should be inserted." This is the, clause which gives the Boarel the right to arrange the: packing and grading of fruit, and it refers to this idea which I mentioned, that the Board could say to a man, " Get out of this ; we will pick and pack your crop." If this Board comes into existence there is going to be epuite enough to do in disposing of the fruit, and I believe its duties will be:gin when the fruit is presented for sale here or for sending abroad. They might be able to make suggestions to the growers as to when to pick the fruit for the cool stores, but 1 cannot see any body of men getting at loggerheads with the: growers, because it is quite obvious that the growers know their own orchards better than any one else. Referring again to the letter I have: just quoted, it says, " As regards local option, the: three-year clause will cause big trouble round here." I mentioned the. three-year clause yesterday, and, with all respect, offer a suggestion as to how it could be got round. There is a fear in the minds of the orchardists that they might get a Board one or more members of which they might find obnoxious to them ; and if, instead of one member retiring after one year and submitting himself for re-election, it could be arranged that all three members should have to retire at the end of the first year and submit themselves for re-election, the growers would feel that they had an opportunity of getting rid of obnoxious members of the Board. In regard to export control there: is only one thing that I would like to say. We have claimed in the past that this fruitgrowing is an industry, and as an inelustry we have applied to the Government and the people of this country for a certain amount of assistance. So, with regard to the export side of our business, I would suggest that it shoulel be Dominion-wiele. In so far as interprovincial pooling in a common market is concerned, I may say that Nelson is strongly opposed to that, and it is an objection raised by Otago and other places. Certainly the desire for interprovincial pooling diel not originate: in Nelson. The question was asked yesterday as to whether Marlborough supported the Bill or not. Mr. Marshall, of Marlborough, has already given evidence be:fore the Committee. I received from his association yesterday morning a letter which I think will explain the position : " Your letter addressed to Mr. S. Marshall (president Marlborough Fruitgrowers' Association) only arrived this morning's mail —hence not able to do anything with the petition by Tuesday's mail. Mr. Marshall asked me to write you stating that a general meeting of our association held on Wednesday, 9th July, at Blenheim, expressed unanimous approval of the Control Bill, and instructed our delegate to support it as being in the best interests of the inelustry." That letter confirms the- attitude: taken up by Mr. Marshall. Now I will go back to the question of local control anel degrading. There have been bitter complaints as to the, quantity degraded on reaching the Wellington market. Tho reasons are these : A very large quantity of the fruit is oversize, and the buyers used to go round and pick out the best sizes. Frequently I could not get over in time to deal with the fruit left standing, as it was not possible to be in two place:s at eme:e, and the result was that some of the fruit went bad on the floor and was solel at next to nothing later em. However, by certain arrangements I made there has not been anything like the amount degraded. Then, owing to slowness of payment and other things, growers were, sending their fruit not through the Board but direct to the auetion-rooms, which increased the difficulties. I will now give you some comparisons of fruit sent over by the Board and fruit sent uncontrolled : Week ending 2nd August—f,266 control, 3,322 outside; week ending 18th August —1,453 control, 2,977 outside; week ending 23rd August —783 control, 2,256 outside:; week ending 29th August—-8,390 control, 2,006 outside; week ending 6th September —744 control, 1,920 outside. Now, I am geiing to ask you frankly, is it possible for any man to do anything in the way of regulating prices for the benefit of the: growers when they are: opposed to help ? Ido not think it is. I want to come to the end, and, to put things quite plainly, I am going to ask that this Bill should be placed on the statutebook, because I do not believe any system can be operated without some power behind it, and I believe we are never going to get anywhere in the, fruit business unless you elo this —unless you can put the grower- with his back to the wall and say, " This is your business and your interest: decide what you want to do by a majority." May I make a personal statement ? Some little time ago a man saiel to me, " Look here, you are the driving-force: of this Cemtrol Bill." " Well," I said, "if that is the case we are on the wrong lines. Cannot you understand that the driving-force is the growers themselves, and that the Boarel is merely directing it into the proper channels ? Unless you can

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understand that we are never going to get anywhere." You cannot possibly help people who are inert and just watching anel waiting. The only chance you have got is that, everybody shall be determined to get into it themselves anel pull in the. same direction. Now, I would say frankly that I believe the greiwers want to get out of the mess they are in and make the industry successful. They have, got to be made to undcrstanei that they must decide these things for themselves—otherwise we may just as well finish with the whole: thing. 3. If no effort is made in the, way of organization on the lines which are suggested in the Bill, could you conscientiously ask the Government to go em with the guarantee: as it is doing now ?—No. 4. Tho Government would not be justified in doing this if the: growers will make no effort to help themselves —it should not be asked to step in all the time ? —Personally I would not ask them. 5. This evidence you gave about the sales of fruit and buying in : it seems that the people acting as agents for the growers are simply blocking them all the time ? —Some of them are. 6. That is a matter that could be attended to by a Control Board ? —Yes. It woulel be a power to fight it. 7. Mr. Corrigan] 1 understand you are connected with this fruitgrowers' council: could you tell us why tho council got such poor returns compared with some of the others ?—ln some instances perhaps they do not elo so well. My prices are based on an attempt to get reasonable: prices for the whole province, but if one man slips in with a variety which is short on the market he may get it. For instance, eleven cases of Hawke's Bay Stunners came down a short time ago anel elrow 16s. 3d. ; but if one hundred cases had come down they would probably have drawn about lis. It is a question of supply and demand. We have striven to obtain higher average prices. 8. Your answer is that one may have struck a normal market anel the: other a glutted market ?— Yes. 9. Mr. Hawken] Do you think it absolutely necessary to regulate the fruit on the market ?—Yes. 10. How would the districts be affected if they each had their own local Boarel —could these Boards make arrangements together ?—I think so. There is provision made in the Bill for conjoint Boards, and I think it would bo in tho interests of the districts to have working arrangements. 11. Do you think there is over-competition in the handling of fruit — especially retail? —Not, necessarily retail. There are too many in the wholesale" business ; and I consider there are, too many growers at the present moment going about the country, because they get played off one against the other. 12. Do you think that if tho fruit were handled by fewer people the consumer would get the benefit of lessoned handling-charges ? —I do not think so. It is tho amount of wastage: to compensate for that regulates the prices of fruit. Broadly speaking, fruit at Bs. on the' market usually retails at 4cl. a pound, at 10s., 6d. a pound, and 125., Bd. a pound. This is only a broad working hypothesis, and depends to a very large extent on tho condition of the apples which are bought. If I were to gel; hold of a case containing 25 per cent, eif badly bruised fruit which would not, bring more than 2d. a pound, then I would, have to average out the rest of the fruit at so-much a pound. 13. Do you not think that the, waste in a shop where there was a big turnover would be far less than where there was a small turnover ?—lt would depend to a great extent on the sanitary conditions. There are too many small retailers with little shops selling tobacco, fruit, and all that, sort of thing who buy in two-case and three-case lots. Here tho fruit may go bad. The cost of making out and collecting accounts and despatching these little tiny orders is really excessive; in proportion to the value of the fruit sold. 14. You consider the real difficulty is the cost of handling ? —Yes, in Nelson. 15. Do you think there is any prospect of those costs being reduced were the fruit handled by a Board ? —Yes, I think they could be reduced in this way : that if we e;an stabilize prices and get, a better average, that will probably more: than repay us for the few extra pence which the organization would cost. This year we: had a levy eif 2|el. to keep the: Boarel in existence, and we had a collection charge of 3|d. that included twenty-one days storage, making out shipping-notiis and then shipping fruit, cartage to the wharf, and various other handlings : that was a total of 6el. My endeavour was to lift the averages prices by Is., in which case:, although paying 6d., thesy weiuld still be: 6d. to the good. That is what lam striving to do. 16. Are the shipping charges capable of reduction, do you think? —Yes; but shipping charges are a matter of a few pence where we want shillings knocked off. It costs ss. Id. to put fruit in Invercargill. One man in Southland ordered from me a three-case lot, and he wrote saying he, could not stanel the: charges. The three cases cost him 15s. 3d. from the. Nelson wharf, and it was simply hopele:ss. I sent a ton of fruit to another man at Matamata some time ago. The, fruit arrived in excellent condition, but the charges were tremendous. It cost £2 4s. 5d., whereas he coulel have landed a ton from Hawke's Bay for 13s. 6d. You will unelerstand that differences of a few pence are no good to us. It must be something much bigger than that to enable us to compete with the rest of the Dominion. 17. Mr. Lysnar] You stated that there was practically £1,000,000 wrapped up in those 4,000 acres : why do you say they are a prospective failure without this Board ?—Because the cost of preduetion and the cost of marketing are enormous —greater in proportion to the rest eif the: province:, because the production per tree, is le:ss than in other parts. 18. Do you suggest that this land is not suitable, for fruit-growing ? —I could not give: an opinion on that; I can only say that from what I have, seen it is very harel lanel on which to grow fruit, anel I believe that unless there is heavy manuring there is nothing in the soil itself which will grow fruit. It will grow trees well, but when those trees begin to make demands on, the, soil to produce fruit, there is trouble; and I believe that to get big crops on that land it would be necessary to manure; so heavily that it would increase the cost of production to an extent when it woulel not pay.

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19. Would not the same conditions obtain with tho Boarel ? —Not if tho costs of manuring and marketing could bo reduced. Things were in a very haphazard way last year with gluts on the Wellington market and small prices for fruit. Control means to me tho working out of a system, not interference with the growers. 20. Are there any other orchards in New Zealand in a similar position ?—That I could not say. 21. Are the representatives of these 4,000 acres asking for the Bill? —No, the whole province. These people depend largely on export, but export control alone will not save them. If you take the guarantee of Id. a pound—take that as an average price—it is all you have got to rely on for the nuiment —you are safe for Id. a pound. One, thousand easels at Id. per pound would be the equivalent eif £166 sterling. Now, to get one thousand cases for export you want big crops on the hills orchards, and I elo not think you will ever make Id. a pound pay your way. It is a matter of necessity that there: should also be a good local market as well as an export market. 22. Mr. Hawken] What proportion of the fruit is fit for export ?—lt varies with the year, and depends also upon the man. In the richer lands there are possibly more difficulties to contend with in the way of blights, but in some: cases this year the, proportion was 75 or 77 per cent., I believe. In another year, though, it might be only 25 or 30 per cent. ;it is a variable quantity. Then, the safety of the fruit going Home is so uncertain. I do not believe that export is going to save the situation unless there is local control. 23. Is it not a fact that private traders get bettor prices than your organization at tho present time ?—Some of them undoubtedly do. 24. How is this Board going to act all over tho Dominion —in Hawke's Bay, Auckland, and Invercargill ? —For local marketing there is no Dominion, control: each province would have its own Board. 25. Do you not think local control should bo left entirely to Parliament ? —lt is. No province has got to come in under local control merely by passing an Act—it must ceime in by voting. Local control is purely optional. It is only export control that is obligatory. The fact of Nelson's going in for local control would not affect another province. 26. What about the complaints that if local control were set up there would bo a certain amount, of danger as regards the central packing-sheds ? —I do not think any danger exists. 27. Would it not exist for export control ? —As far as Nelson is concerned I do not think there: would be any alteration. Some people pack on their own orchards and some in community sheds ; it is just a matter of convenience. All the orchardists are concerned with is that their fruit is packed in such a way that it passes the Government Inspector for export. 28. What arrangements have you regarding export shipping ? —At the present moment we ship by the Anchor Company to Wellington, and then the fruit is lifted on to the Home steamer. Efforts are now being made to get steamers to come to Nelson and load there by lighters. 29. Do boats take a long time to get Home ? —Generally they get Home about the usual time. 30. Is there a quick despatch after the fruit is put on the boat ? —Well, last season there was a sort of procooling done in. the Weilington cheese-store, but how much fruit was there I could not say. 31. I understood you to say that you consieler a Control Board, whether Dominion-wide or otherwise, should have nothing to do with fruit until it has passed the Inspector ? —Yes, that is my opinion absolutely. I should be unwilling to interfere with any man's handling of his own orcharel. 32. Speaking as a grower, have you seen anything up to the present, either under control or otherwise, where growers have been materially interfered with in the handling of export fruit ? —No. I would say that I believe that the present colour standard should be lowered, but I have known of no cases of interference at all. I havo called in the Government Inspector to get his advice, but there have been no complaints of interference by him. 33. Then there has been no interference as regards the handling or picking of fruit ?—No. If a grower picks his fruit over-ripe, then it is simply not passed for export. To my mind the responsibility should, be on the orchardist. He knows what is going to happen to the fruit, anel it is up to him to do it. He cannot be spoon-fed all the time. If a man is going to grow fruit, it is up to him to pick it at the proper time and present it in fit condition. 34. Generally speaking you woulel resent interference by any Board ?—Yes, most certainly. I would like to admit that some of the fruit sent over brought very poor prices, and the reason was that the Board was not notified that it had been standing on the floor for any length of time, and the Inspector could not degrade it until it arrived at such a state that it either hail to be sold or discarded altogether. Another thing I may mention in regard to that: last year I knew of a good many instances where growers had to send a cheque after their fruit to clear it. 35. I have an instance here where there were three cases of Monroes sojd in July in Wellington for 7s. and another case sold at 7s. 6d. ? —That is a small instance where we, have not done so well because we had 6d. up against us for charges. 36. Mr. Langstone] There are two cases here, one where the expenses on a turnover of £4 lis. were £2 155., and in the other, which was handled by an auctioneer, on a turnover of £11 19s. the expenses were £2 Bs. 9d. ? —First with reference to the fruit just mentioned sold in July : this fruit hael been in store, and the prices realized in each case were just about the same. As far as charges are concerned, if you took every account sale and worked out the, cost to every man on it, you would need the Town Hall and a staff of clerks tei do it. The only possible way to do it would bo to take the gross result"and 7 average ifout. out just about accurately. The: proportion of cost to realization in a month when fruit of cheaper varieties is sold on the market is obviously going to be greater than when more expensive varieties are sold, so that an average cost would be somewhere between 20 and 30 per cent. But this relation of charges to realization depends on the

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varieties of fruit going through. There is a bad period when a large number of indifferent apples are on the market at the same, time. In Nelson there are fifty-four different varieties of apples. Monroes, London Pippins, Jonathans, and a host of lesser-known varieties, not known by name on the market but simply called " apple's," or, in seime: cases, " cookers," are on the: market at the same time. The: cqst is the same to send over gooel apples as it is to send eivor bad. The ratio of charges against the amount of realization is going to be higher when those; cheaper varieties are on the market. 37. Mr. Corrigan] The; overhead charges are the same em cheap fruit as on dear fruit ? — Absolutely, with the exception of the 7J-per-cent. commission. T. C. Brash examined. (No. 32.) 1. The Acting-Chairman] Whom do you represent?—l appear as president of the New Zealanel Fruitgrowers' Federation ; and, to show that we have a mandate to go on in this matter, I would like to refer to the remits which were dealt with by the annual conference of the fruitgrowers' federation in June, 1923, and again in. June, 1924. The remits were sent out to all fruit-growers' associations in June, 1923, and considered at the annual conference of the fruitgrowers' federation, at which all provinces were represented. I desire, if I may, to read the following extracts : " That this conference urges the necessity of a Fruit Export Control Boarel, and urges the Government to pass the necessary legislation " (June, 1923) ; " That the local standardization of fruit be: approved " ; " That standardization be made compulsory " ; " That, in view of the fact that, under the present system of fruit-marketing, consumers are being robbed and the growers are being ruined, the federation, in collaboration with the Government Department, is urgeei, to devise a more satisfactory and comprehensive scheme for the future distribution and marketing of all pip-fruit in this Dominion " ; " That the federation bring down some scheme for the development of New Zealanel markets as vital to fruitgrowers' interests." Now, those were brought forward in 1923. It takes away a good deal of the ground for the argument that the fruitgrowers had no knowledge of the proposal for a Fruit Control Act. The following are e:xtracts from the remits for 1924 : " That this conference urges the need of a Fruit Control Act, and instructs the Boarel to set up a committee to work in this behalf " ; " That the; Act be elivided into two sections, the first of these being Dominion-wide and dealing only with fruit for export, the second being provincial in its operations and to be applied only at the request of a majority of the commercial growers in a province " ; " That this meeting of fruitgrowers in conference assembled do hereby eiecide to adopt means to secure the passing through Parliament this session of a Fruit Control Bill " ; " That such Bill provide for an absolute control of export fruit for the whole Dominion." Now, to further advertise this matter the Government circulated a synopsis of the Bill. There have been statements that the synopsis was not the Bill itself, but there is nothing in the Bill of any importance that is not in the synopsis. As a matter of fact, the Bill has been modified as compared with the synopsis I as regards the maximum levy that can be made, this was included in the Bill. Co-operation among tho primary producers is not a matter of a day ; rather has it been the result of years of effort, of reaching out towards a better system of production and transport and marketing. Always the impelling force behind it has been that the producer, when he considers the labour that he is putting into production, the capital that is involved (and it is generally borrowed capital), and the care and attention he give:s to it, feels that his return is not in proportion to the returns of those whei aro giving service in the way of transport, marketing, &c. lie, sees a greater 1 proportion of those who are giving these services growing more wealthy than the producers themselves Now, that is not an idealistic attitude, but there it is. It is that feeling which impels him forward to co-operation and better organization. There have been failures —many failures —amongst cooperative enterprises. If you require proof of that, take the evidence given by some of those who are opposed to this Bill. They have had lots of companies, which have nearly all been failures — they have indicated that themselves. That they have gone into these companies is in itself a proof that they are not satisfied with the present conditions. Neiw, what has been the cause of these failures ? Why have these co-operative companies in a number of cases failed ? I think you can size it up in one word —disloyalty : disloyalty on behalf of a section of the producers themselves. They are all right as long as everything is going along swimmingly, when co-operation is practically not required ; but immediately some difficulty arises, when every man is required to stand behind the organization, then a certain number slip out and leave it —anel not only leave it, but give every encouragement possible to those who aro opposed to co-operative institutions. To me the psychology of their action is altogether beyond comprehension. Then came the idea of control —of sotting up an organization with, some statutory powers. Tho ielea is not a new one. You can go to some of the countries that we do not class as the most highly civilized and get illustrations. Take Brazil for instance, —amongst, the coffee-growers they have had a control committee set up for twenty years, with drastic regulations. They can prohibit the planting of an extra tree in certain portions eif Brazil ; and that was set up and needed at a time when Brazil supplied nearly 75 per cent, of the world's production of coffee. They coulel not, get sufficient for their coffee to pay for the: cost eif production. There have been many ups and downs in those twenty years, but they claim to-day that they have put the coffee industry where it can at least pay for the cost of production. Brazil, of course, does not occupy the same position to-day, as many other countries are now producing coffee. In Mexico one of the principal primary products is sisal, a raw material from which is manufactured binder-twine: ; and Mexico has practically a monopoly of the twine-supplies for the great wheat-growing areas of Canada and the United States. During the: war the sisal-production was controlled by the Government. When the war ended in 1918 the committee were put out of power and the Government gave up control. By 1920 the sisal-producers were facing ruin—the

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prices which they were getting for raw material would not pay for the: cost of production ; and the Government agreed to establish a committee to control the whole industry. That committee was faced with the fact that there were: very heavy stocks of raw material in the country at the time, and there: was a fairly heavy production. To-day they have cleared off all their stocks, and the position has steadily improved in their sisal-production. They claim that they can hold it there always, provided, of course, that they do not allow the selling-price to go beyond a certain figure, as there are substitutes for sisal, which would then take its place. Take the production of citrate of lime: in Sicily. It is the raw material from which citric acid is produced ; and Sicily has almost a monopoly eif it, yet they were faced with ruin some years ago. It was the case of one producer up against another until a committee took over the control of the whole, business, anel now every buyer throughout the world has to buy it through that committee. In Greece, where: the principal primary product is currants, there is also a control committee:. That committee has power to reduce the area producing currants if necessary. It has power to make levies for advertising currants throughout the world, and power to take over any surplus on the market. In conection with arguments against control, statements have been made that it is all right so far as controlling a man's actions is concerned, but you must not touch his property. As an instance, of what is being done: in one of our own Dominions, in Canada last year an Act was passed making the grading of cream compulsory. Great competition had grown up between dairy companies, both co-operative and proprietary, in Canada —so great, in fact, that the, producer could send along any sort of cream at all te) the factories and get full prices for it. But the Government stepped in and said, " You must grade this cream, and, what is more, you must pay 2 cents a pound less for butterfat for second-grade cream than for first-grade cream." It was a man's own property, but the Government said, " You have got to get a penny less for it." That was done in the interests of the whole industry in Canaeia. 1 mention this to show that it is not solely a New Zealauel idea that there should, be some control taken of produce. Now, coming to New Zealand : With reference to the meat control, you know better than I do what was elono in that connection. The meat business was faced with a very difficult position. The: Government set up a committee to go into the question, and, after a great deal of consideration, set up a Control Boarel. You know something of the opposition raised. Ido not suppose there: has been anything to compare with the: opposition raised to it. There were statements made about the ruin that would come to New Zealand —that the buyers would not buy meat —that meat was a difficult problem to handle. Every vested interest in connection with the meat business had propaganela in the newspapers opposing the; Meat Control Board. There was a bombardment of opposition from the big meat firms in London. If the Board took over the market, ruin would come to the producers—the Board would not know anything about it, and so on. Now, I make bold to say that the meat-producers, generally speaking, throughout this country are delighted with the results of the Meat Board, though the Board to begin with had to face the opposition of the meat-producers themselves in some instances — take the opposition in Canterbury to tho proposal. Then the Dairy Control Board came forward, Now, every argument put up against the Meat Control Board was put up against the elairy-control proposal. The producers would be ruined —people would go out of business—the Board would not be able to handle the position. Some of the members of this Committee sat here for weeks hearing the evidence, Now, tho Dairy Control Board only opened its office on the Ist July, and you can scarcely say that it is established, yet it has already been responsible for fairly heavy reductions in marine insurance, and it is at present negotiating for other reductions. That brings me to the proposal for the Fruit Control Board. What is the actual position in connection with fruit ? What is the position of the growers generally ? At one extreme we have a number of the older-established growers who have worked up a fairly sound private business and who are doing reasonably we'll. At the other extreme we have men walking off and leaving their orchards : a number of them will have to be cut out by the Government. And in between wo have the great rank and file hanging on "by the skin of their teeth " : that is all they are doing —just hanging on. There is something wrong with tho whole business that it should be so. These men work hard : there is no harderworked section of the community at the present time than the fruitgrowers. Take the local market : you see: on one hand fruit sold to the consumer at prices which I claim are too high but the grower is getting nothing out of it in a lot of cases. Ido not blame, the retailer. When he goes to the auctionrooms he gets a lot of faulty fruit to sell, and he has to fix retail prices to recoup those losses. There is no organization at the present time which can bring about standardization. Ido not for one: moment think that Local Control Boards in the different provinces will raise the price of fruit to the consumer. it will mean that when the retailer buys a case anel knows he can sell the whole hit of it, that should bring down the price of fruit to the consumer. It has been mentioned that the whole of our production of pip-fruit could be used on the local market if it were properly advertised. I think there is a certain amount of truth in that, although I am looking for a very big export business from New Zealand. But how are you going to set about this campaign of advertising and educatiem. One witness has said that the fruit coulel be all consumed in this market by advertising anel education. Two years ago the fruitgrowers were facing the winter with a very, very heavy quantity of fruit in store:. A conference of growers agreed to set up a committee which would advertise the fruit and spend a certain amount of money, making a levy on the growers for the amount. The committee met on a good many occasions, but no advertising was done. Each grower said it was not his job, and in the end only a few co-operative associations were willing, but they felt it was not their job either to be saddled with the burden of advertising the whole of the fruit in store, I suggest that unless some organization with statutory powers will do these things they will not be done at all. I submit that, in spite of the opposition against it, some measure of local control is a necessity. Now, with regard to export: Because of the guarantee there has been a certain amount of control eif the; export of pip-fruit from New Zealand ; and just in passing I wish to express our appreciation of that

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guarantee. We could not have got on without it, and in a great many elistricts wo would not have been able to finance the picking and preparation for the following year without the knowledge: that there was the Government guarantee to the extent of fd. a pound be:hind us. Wo appreciate the Government's help in that connection. There have been some witnesses who said that it was unnecessary. One witness in particular said it was not necessary, but in his case ho did not export anything and of course, it was not necessary to him. I have said that there is a certain amount of control under the guarantee, but there is no piower to deal with shipping under it —none whatever. Some witnesses have said that they do not see the need of any improvement in shipping. You may be interested to know that the: federation at the present time is trying to collect a claim of £5,000 from one of the: shipping companies in connection with damaged fruit badly carried on the voyage Home. The federation is being pushed about from pillar to post. There are four parties to the business — the: Government, the fide- ration, the; brokers, and the shipping company; and no one organization has the right to go and say, " This contract was made with us and you will settle it with us." It was twice taken to London, and pushed out here each time, and there is no sign of an agreement about that £5,000 ; and because it conies under the guarantee the Government have had to find the money to pay the growers. The- Board wemlel have power to make: shipping contracts. It might be saiel that the federation coulel make, a shipping contract. The federation might go to the shipping company and have a contraet made anel signed, but if growers decided they would have separate contracts you could not stop them. Nelson witnesses stated the absolute necessity of direct shipment from Nelson. They were speaking against the Bill in saying so. How are you going to fix up direct shipments from Nelson unless there is some; organization with power to get the whole of the fruit for e:xport as far as shipping contracts are concerned ? If the council makes a contract with a shipping company to pick up the fruit at Nelson, there is no organization with any power to stop growers shipping it themselves to Wellington. Then, advertising in Great Britain is another problem. Under tho guarantee at the present time the federation have arrangements with brokers in London to deduct a small amount from every case, anel have, a certain amount of advertising done, but that wemld not be possible at all without the Government guarantee, and even with tho Government guarantee, if the growers like to protest they can claim a refund of that money. So that, on that score alone, if we are going to advertise New Zealanei fruit, there must be a body with piower to make a levy for advertising and to do tho work. The: meat business was the same, and so was the dairy business. We have passeei resolutions, I suppose, for the: last twenty years in connection with the dairy industry urging that something should be done to advertise the produce on the Home market, but there is going to be something done now because there is a Board. Supposing you advertise the fruit ami open up new markets : you have no power over the fruit to test out these now markets, and, as far as the individual grower is concerned, it is not his job, and he is not going to risk it: so that again you want a body with some power behind it te) eipen up new markets. It has been said that this fruit industry, the expiort especially, is only a small thing —some one compared it to a drop in the bucket compared to the quantity of fruit going to Great Britain. Now, if that is so, is it not easier to get control at the present time ? And, if the' drop grows bigger, we shall grow with it and so be enabled to have, very much better control. The- stock argument against control is that the growers do not want to be controlled. " Let us dei as we like," they say. Now, we: all want to do that, but we have to get. a wider view than our nun selves in this matter and realize that we are to some extent our brothers' keepers. The exercise of some measure of control will be for the' good of the whole industry. The bogey of expense has been raised —the question of the great OOSt eif this Board —that, they are: going to have liaborate staffs, and big fees for members of the Board, &c. Now, I put it to you, as a boely of intelligent men, can you believe; that the fruitgrowers are going to elect men em to their own Boarel who will do that sort of thing? We must take a common-sense view of it. The answer conies back, " They have power to do it." Of course they have power to do it, if they elo not get some power to market and make levies they will have, no power to do anything. A great many opponents of the: Bill elo not want inspection and grading. Well, I submit that that wipes their evidence right out. If we decline to have inspection and grading in connection with our primary products, when we know that it is taking place not only in New Ze:aland but throughout the; world then we are going to be entirely out of date. With regard to overproduction —some of the opponents of the Bill have said that there is overproduction. I have been in the dairy industry for thirty-five years, and the whole of that time associated with the co-operative movement amongst the elairy people. Thirty years ago, when the export was a quarter of a million, the; cry of overproduction was raised. " You are never going to sell it," they saiel. To-day we are exporting £18,000,000 worth, and now we never hear of overproduction, 1 have' no fear on that point, and I submit that, from past experience in the history of this Dominion, it has been proved that overproduction is a bogey. One witness said, " Let well alone " ; and in the next breath he saiel, " It is the last thing in the world 1 would put a boy into." Now turn to the position in the different provinces. After all, the fruitgrowers' federation has, I think, Ihe- right to speak for the; different provinces. At its last conference a resolution was carried urging the passing of this legislation. There; were' representatives there from all the provinces. Otago diel not vote, as they considered they did not have sufficient knowledge: of the' Bill ; but apart from that it was e:arried unanimously. 2. Mr. Forbes] What did Canterbury say? —I will be; referring to Canterbury later on. The chairman and secretary of the Auckland Fruitgrowers' Council both gave hearty support to the Bill. From Wellington, Mr. Tait was the only one to give evidence, and ho spoke in favour of the Bill—l suppose, he is the biggest exporter in the' Wellington Province. In Marlborough, so far as I know, there was no voice raised against if. I have a telegram here in connection with the suggestion that there might be some alteratiem as regards representation : " Will agree to whatever Committee consider best regards representation on Export Control Board.—Marlborough." The evidence from Nelson

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was fairly lengthy, but the organized greiwers were heartily in support of the Bill. The question of the Stoke fruitgrowers' meeting has been brought up, anel I have; a letter here from the secretary of the Stoke Fruitgrowers' Association, from which I desire to read the following e:xtract: " Two of the members present (anel the; meeting was a well-attended one') pressed for the inclusion in the: Bill of another clause, which clause was to give protection to the private trader. No definition was offeree! as to what tho term meant. The resolution to this effect was eiuly put and passed, and tho secretary and president were instructed to see Colonel Gray and Mr. Nottage before those gentlemen left for Wellington. No further opposition was offered and no further criticism levelled at the Control Bill — some members expressing their'satisfaction, and the meeting being apparently entirely in sympathy with the objects of the Bill." Then reference was made to the president of that association being at Kiwaka. With regard to that I will read, the following statement contained in the secretary's letter : " That the: president of our association should have boon present at a certain meeting in Riwaka has no significance as far as Stoke is concerned, Mr. Highet having gone in his private capacity as a fruitgrower, and his intention of going was not known to auy one: at the time of our meeting (nor at any time .prior to his departure, 1 believe)." You can take it for granted that the position in Nelson is fairly sound, and fairly solidly behind the Bill. In Canterbury there was only one central official mooting held, and this was the provincial conference, at which all associations were representee!. There has been mention of meetings held where resolutions wore carried against the Bill, but these were meetings of single associations. The provincial conference to which I refer was held towards the end of May. I was on my way to Dunedin at the time, and I had the privilege of being present when Mr. Campbell explained the provisions of the Bill set out in the synopsis. A unanimous resolution was carried in favour of export control. A resolution in favour of local control was carried, but not unanimously. Certain statements have been maele in Canterbury of an alarmist character about the right the Beiard would have to mortgage the property of the fruitgrower. Now, those alarmist tactics might create a lot of suspicion, and you have hael, of course, some evielence of that in. those sectional meetings referred to by some: witnesses. One witness made reference to a meeting which I went down to address in Dunedin. As a matter of fact, I eiid not go down to address a meeting. I was in Dunedin, and was asked by the federation if I would say something about the Control Board. This witness said he arrived in time tei block me getting a favourable resolution through. As a matter of fact, it was I who suggested that they should not pass a resolution, seeing that they had not, had sufficient notice, or sufficient time: to consider the synopsis. 1 would like to point out that those remits were sent out to the: fruitgrowers' associations of Otago, anel they were asked to get together a provincial conference to consider the remits. That is what the meeting was feir. The remits sot, out the: question of control coming up at the general conference; in Wellington. I simply mention that to contradict the statement that I was seeking to get a resolution through in favour of the Bill when this gentleman was able to block it. As a matter of fact, I myself suggested that the resolution should not be passed. I am not going to make a statement with regard to what has been saiel about meetings visited by Mr. Allan. A. certain witness has made contradictory statements, but lam going to read the Press comment anel leave it at that. Mr. Duncan : Sir, I submit that this witness is not in order. I say that the official evidence: has boon given, and been given by the representative of the organized fruitgrowers' body in Otago. The Acting-Chairman: Do you belong tei the; Otagei Federation ? Mr. Duncan : Yes, lam a director of the federation. The Acting-Chairman : This witness is here in the capacity of chairman. Mr. Duncan : Yes, but he has no right to refer to Otago in contradiction eif the official statements that have been made. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : I submit that as Minister in charge I want to hear all the evidence. Mr. Turner : Sir, I must say that 1 eliel not think the Committee would permit statements to be made respecting one district which cannot possibly moot the.' position. The: witness should not be allowed to come in and make such statements. 1 dei not know anything about Nelson, and we do not want to teach them what to do. The Acting-Chairman : We: arc anxious to hear as much as possible, and the witness, as chairman of the Fruitgrowers' Federation of New Zealand, certainly represents Otago in that capacity as much as he does Nelson. Mr. Brash : I was going to make no comment on those meetings other than reading the newspaper reports regarding them. There has been contradictory e:vidence given to them. Mr. Turner : Sir, a point of order. You ruled me out when I was giving evidence. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : I maintain that as Minister in charge of the Bill I have the right to hear all the: evidence that any one wishes to give, and if you are going to take up an attitude of obstruction I shall have to ask you to leave the room. Mr. Brash : 1 will now road an extract; from the Alexandra Herald, dated 27th Juno, with reference to a meeting held at Earnsclough : " The. meeting unanimously passed a. resolution agreeing to .support the: Control Bill em condition that no Dominion-wide pool should be made." The next, one is also from the: Alexandra Herald, dated 9th July : " During Mr. Allan's visit to Otago meetings were convened at different centres, anel he was given the; opportunity of explaining the; provisions of the Fruit Control Bill. Previous to this, Mr. Brash, another member of the executive, also addressed the provincial conference: in Dunedin. At Mr. Brash's meeting no resolution agreeing or objecting to the Bill was askeel feir, but on Mr. Allan's visit, resolutions supporting the Bill were: carried at Cromwell, Earnsclough, Roxburgh, Ettrick, and Taie-ri. The motion carried favoured the export section of the Bill if it exclueled pooling and fixed the maximum leivy at 3d. a. case anel limited voting on local-market control to holders of 2 acres and over eif the, variety being voted upon. The local meeting a t Earnscleugh was very representative, thirty-six growers being present. The matter was very

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fully discussed, and Mr. Allan very closely questioned on such matters as pooling and maximum levy, and the motion favouring the Bill was carried unanimously." 1 know you will take a wide view of this fruit industry and realize its difficulties. Every industry has its own difficulties, and I would plead with yeiu to support this legislation going on the statute-book with a view to setting up a Control Board that will have seime: power tei bring about reforms in the; industry.

Wednesday, 24th September, 1924. William Henry Owen examined. (No. 33.) 1. The Chairman] What are: you ?— -1 am an orchardist at Riwaka, and I am representing the fruitgrowers eif Riwaka ; and I have been deputed by them to come: be:foro this Committee to give evidence: on their behalf against the Bill. I may say that the Riwaka growers are entirely against the Bill in any form. The reason why they are against the Bill is that they claim to be among the: oldest fruitgrowers- that is, commercial fruitgrowers —in the Nelson Province, and they have had a long and varied experience in relation to fruitgrowing as an industry, and their past experience of combined efforts —that is to say, commercial control—have all been of a very unsatisfactory nature. The first attempt at control, as far as I remember, was made by the small-fruit growers, known as tho Raspberry Fruit Company, with headquarters at Motueka. Tho obje;ct of this company was to take control of the; small-fruits and manufacture them in the form of pulp, and sell the pulp to clients in anel about New Zealand and even overseas. After a short time this company got into such a hopeless muddle that tho raspberries were not dealt with at all, except that they were picked and put over the wjharf adjacent to tho fruit-factory, anel the whole thing resulted in disaster to the raspberry-growers. Then another attempt was made, and the Stoke: Preserving Company was started. This company was formed with the object of preserving their own products and placing them on the market, and they also came to grief. The next attempt was made by the Moutere Association, and for a year or two things went along very well ; but, owing to the extensive, planting of fruit-trees in the Tasman district, this company was swallowed up by another company, known as the N.D.F. 1 understand it was backed by Government subsidies to a very large extent. It appointed a manager named Mr. 11. C. Hill, who organized this company, and was known as the " dynamo of energy." He came along to our district, and 1 think he had the majority of the fruitgrowers in Riwaka, Moutere, Motueka, Stoke, and other portions of the country in this concern. Large and expensive sheds were built in the different areas, and they also put up very costly plant for side lines, such as by-products, cidermaking, and pulp- , making. lam not prepared to state what the total cost of this concern was, but I know that every fruitgrower in my elistrict went into it. However, the N.D.F. came to grief ; it actually worked for about three months before: it went into liquidation, with its liabilities at approximately between £14,000 and £16,000, notwithstaneling that it operated under the mo3t favourable conelitions. We consider that the elirectorate controlling that N.D.F. Company should have been one of the best and one of the most capable it was possible tei select. I may say that four business men, who were recognized as being successful business men of Nelson- that is, from the commercial point of view—sat on that Boarel, toge:ther with four producers, who were actually fruitgrowers, making eight members in all. Tho company had not been in operation very long before it was in a state of hopeless chaos and muddle. Mr. Hill's intention, as organizer and manager for this company, was to control the fruit under his charge, and to fix a price that was going to be a payable price to the grower. He also secured his supplies in the form of contracts —that is, the shareholelors of the company, who were producers, were under contract to supply direct to that company and deliver the fruit to the shed, and the company took charge of it from that date, and you know no more than to pick up your cheques. Weill, it is a fact gentlemen, that in these stores there were hundreds and hundreds of cases of fruit that was allowed to remain under this control, and it absolutely rotted in the. cases, and hundreds and hundreds of cases of it were carted out by farmers to food their pigs, in order to get rid of it out of the sheds. They shipped largo quantities to Weilington to an autcioneering firm to sell, and I understand that most of that fruit was put in the destructor—that is, the fruit that did not run out on to the floor of the mart. 2. Mr. Corrigan] Did that apply to stone-fruit ?—No, that applied to pip-fruit —that is, mainly apples. Well, gentlemen, many of us were very great losers. Personally I can assure you that it put £20 Bs. 2d. an acre on my property as a consequence of my loss in that company. lam not prepared to mention about the losses of other people, but I know there were very consielerablc losses made. However, the company finally went into liquidation. Ido not know how the Government got on so far as its security was concerned, but we were paid very small dividenels —to what extent I forge't, although it was very small. The next attempt was made by the Hills people, known as the Nelson Fruitgrowers' Federation, which had its headquarters in Nelson City. I know nothing about the directors of this company, but, assuming that they were all tho Hills people:, they were certainly first anel foremost in the rank of theorists in the matter of dealing with fruit products. They started their Company in Nelson. 3. The Chairman] I think you aro going too far into the mismanagement of those organizations ? —Very wed, sir. The attitude that our people: are taking up is that, as a consequenoe of their exjierience in the past, they are not prepared to go through a similar experioncc in the future. 1 might say, if you will allow me to just mention this one case, that 4. I think it is unnecessary to elaborate on the number eif mismanagements that have taken place ? —I may say that I wanted to point out that the managements, sei far as these organizations were concerned, have been the ablest that could be procured. Mr. Rundle came from America with a great

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reputation, and I belie've> he was an entirely capable man, and he managed the Nelson Fruitgrowers' Federation, and it went into liquidation. Then we: had another scheme —that is, an arrangement bestween the federation and J. W. Wallace:, who is now an auctioneer in Wellington, to do away with the overlapping in the sales of fruit and procure a payable: price. Mr. Wallace, I believe, was employed at a high salary to do this, but it also fell through. Then the Motueka fruitgrowers had another try within recent years, anel that fell through. Then the; Fruit Control Board, under the management of Colonel Gray and Mr. Allan, made a final attempt. May I say at this stage, gentlemen, that Ido not want to decry Colonel Gray in any shape or form, because 1 give him credit for the very strenuous efforts on his part in the interests of tho fruitgrowers ; but we maintain, from our experience and knowledge of this business, that Colonel Gray was hopelessly lost before he started ; and, while we are prepared to say that he has done his best, it must be recognized that the Control Board has been a disaster. I may say that it has been mentioned, gentlemen —and I would like to say that there is nothing in it— that we have been asked to come here under the direction of Messrs. Buxton and Co., in Nelson ; but I want, to say that there is no truth in that assertion. Prior to the institution of any of these organizations I have referred to we used to deal in our own fruit and sell it on the local market, anil in the case of fruit for export we sold it through private: commercial houses, and we did all right. They either bought the; fruit outright, or you could ship it on consignment, if you chose. These firms used to come round, buy the fruit, pack it and ship it, anel the only responsibility that we had was to find the case and cart it to the wharf. We were always paid for it, and there was no hitch ; and it is on those lines that the Riwaka growers would like to deal. They would like; to have the right to deal privately with firms if they so desire, especially those firms that have served them so well in the past. We have no ejuarrel—personally I have no quarrel-with those people who wish to organize under this scheme if they choose to do so ; but the growers in the Riwaka district do object to not being able to manage our own affairs, and we: consider that we should not be dragged at the heels of every section of tho community who are not so fortunately situated as wo arc. To give you an idea of the cost of production in the: Riwaka district, I would like: to quote figures supplied by Mr. Rowlings, who, I may say, is recognized to bo one of tho most capable fruitgrowers in the Nelson Province, and I do not think any one woulel question that statement. Mr. Rowlings is a man who has practically been brought up in this fruit business ; and the following arc his figures on 6,000 cases of fruit on 21 acres, and the cost per acre is worked out at £16. This does not include wages paid to his family, nor does it include repairs, maintenance, and general upkeep. 5. Mr. Hudson] What doe's his family consist of ? —His family consists of his wife, two boys, anel a girl, who are able to assist him in his work, and also able to assist him in his packing, and so forth. I may say that, there are 8 acres of this orchard in pears, the: principal variety being Vicar of » Winkfiold and the Colo. Mr. Rowlings's cost runs out at £16 per acre for cases. 6. Mr. Forbes] That is the cost of cases ? —Yes, the cost for cases. His freight, cartage, and wharfage is put down at £20 per acre ; wages, £14 per acre ; manure, £5 per acre ; spray material, £6 per acre ; wrapping-paper, £3 per acre ; nails and benzine. £1 per acre ; cool-storage charges, £10 per acre ; interest, rent, £10 per acre ; anel the total conies to £85. That is the total cost ; and he docs not include in that any wages to his family, nor does it include repairs, maintenance, <fec. 7. Mr. Field] And leaves nothing for himself ? —No, sir. I may point out that Mr. Rowlings is in a better position to make this statement than various other fruitgrowers, because ho is not a mixedfarmer —he is a fruitgrower. Mr. Rowlings's gross return was £119 per acre. 8. Mr. Forbes] How many acres has he got ? —Twenty-one acres ; and, as T say, there are eight acres bearing pears in that orchard, particularly Cole and the Vicar of Winkfieiel. I think Cole pears are recognized to be one of the best propositions that a man can have now. 9. Mr. Field] Does he go in for stone-fruit ?—He has no stone-fruit at all. I would like to say that Mr. Rowlings's statement bears out a statement made to us by Professor Foster, of the United States of America, who came to Now Zealand a few years back and addressed the fruitgrowers in our district, and told them that unless an orchard in America produced 4 bushels of fruit to the tree it was not a payable proposition. I cannot confirm, that statement, but Ido not think he would have made such a statement as that unless there was something in it. 1.0. Mr. Forbes] They are: bigger trees in America, arc they not ? —I believe they are planted farther apart. In reading through a journal published in America called The Better Fruit, I came across a passage wherein it says that 20 per cent, of the orchards planted in America never reach a profit stage. I cannot verify that statement, but it is published in what is recognized as one of the best fruit journals published. If the Bill is passed it will be passed in spite of very considerable opposition from our district, as is disclosed by the petitions that have been presented, representing, roughly, 300,000 cases of fruit grown in this district; and, while I cannot make any definite: statement, I think we will be given the benedt of the doubt when wc, say that we, estimate the production is something like, 450,000 cases of fruit in the whole district. Our people think that the procedure of the Bill is not fair to them as growers, in this respect: that under the export section of the Bill a man must have exported in one year, within the three years previous to taking the poll, at le;ast twenty-five cases. Now, our export trade: in Riwaka depends entirely upon tho season. If there is a good clear crop, then more people are able to because, as you know, if they have a dirty crop they are not allowed to export, for the reason that the export quality has to be> kept up, and if the crop is spotteel or dirty in any way it is not allowed to bo exported under the guarantee, anel as regards this I think it is epaite right. If a man has not exported fruit in any one year of the three years preceding the taking of the poll it is not to say that the following year he may not be a heavy exporter, and yet he is not allowed to vote as to the election of any member of the Board because he does not happen to be an exporter in any one of the throe; preceding years. They consider that the right to elect a member should be

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given to every grower, because it is quite possible that every grower may become an axporter according to the season. Thoy also claim that a referendum should be taken on the entire Bill, the same as was done in connection with tho Dairy Control Bill. That gave every producer who was milking cows and supplying a factory or a creamery the right to vote on the e|uestion as to whether or not the Bill should go on the statute-book. As I say, the growers whom. I represent claim, that they should have: the same right. They also claim, .gentlemen —and I think they are right in that —that Nedson is essentially interested in the export of fruit, and probably more so than any other province in New Zealanel. Speaking roughly, I think that last year there, were 190,000 cases of fruit exported from the Nelson Province, the balance being made up from other provinces. Otagei, I understand, exported 40,000 cases, Auckland somewhere about 800 cases, and Canterbury nil. Ido not think the Control Boarel had any effect on the price of fruit this year, because the reason the' prices were higher this year was due to the. fact that the other provinces did not get much of our fruit, whereas in recent years Otago, Auckland, to a certain extent Hawke's Bay, and to a large extent Canterbury, have been able to produce enough fruit practically for their own requirements, particularly their miel-season varieties ; and therefore we have essentially to depend on our export trade. We: consider in those circumstances that, Nelson should not be draggeel at the heeds of Otago. or any other section that wants to export fruit; and we consider, furthermore;, that, we: should be allowed to export on our own account, subject to the approval of the Department. 11. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] Would you like to continue the exporting of fruit without the Government guarantee of Id. per pound ? —The Government guarantee of lei. per pound, has boon certainly advantageous from a, financial point of view—there is no question about that. Immediately the id. per pounel guarantee is brought into force the power is taken away from the commercial houses in the matter of exporting tho fruit. The restrictions were such that the firms were not prepared to fall in with them, and consequently they went out of tho business altogether. Prior to the war, or during the first year of the war, in 1914, Buxton and Co. dealt with approximately 100,000 cases of our fruit, of which somewhere about 50,000 cases were exported. And the way they carried out the business was entirely satisfactory to us. 12. You want to get back to the middleman ? —Yes. We want to get back to the right, of private treaty. 13. You want tho middleman all the time ? —Sir, we cannot do without the middleman. We have to pay the charges. We: consider that since the Id. a pounel guarantee has come in the charges have risen by leaps and bounds. For instance, Buxton and Co. could land our fruit in Lonelon, and pay commission, assembling-charges, account sales, and everything for ss. 6d. a case. * 14. That is pre-war?—Yes —I recognize that. But still I say that the middleman has proved himself to be of great benefit to the growers. We also think that we should bo entitled to a referendum, on the Bill, in the same way as the referendum was carried out in connection with the Dairy Control Bill. And if the export portion of the Bill should be carried we contend that every grower should have the right of electing the representatives. I may say that personally I have not seen or heard of a man among the growers that I think would be sufficiently oapable for election to this Board. Our past experience in connection with such Boards has been one of hopeless muddle, and I do not know that there is a man in our district who has the confidence of the growers sufficiently to be elected to that Board. 15. Do you think that Colonel Gray does not know enough about the business ?—Well, if we have to judge Colonel Gray by his past achievements, I shoulel say No. 16. But did not Colonei Gray have a number of difficulties to contend with ? It was a voluntary Board, and there were interests at work against him all the time ?—I cannot answer that. I was not a member of the Control Board. 17. It is not, of course, necessary that, only growers should be on the Board ; it may be necessary to put business men on the Boarel. There aro business men who know something about this industry ?—I quite agree with you. 18. Do you say that we could not find capable men for running a Board like this, when we, have found capable men for running much larger Boards ? —I am quite satisfied that you will not find such men among the growers in Nelson. 19. Mr. Forbes] What is the strength of the opposition in Nelson Province against this Bill : Would you say half and half ? —Distinctly more than half. 20. You say that there is a bigger number opposed to control than in favour of it ? —Yes. 21. You think, then, that there should be a vote taken before it comes into operation ? —Yes. 22. On what basis do you consider the vote should be taken ? —For compulsory control or otherwise. It should, be a straight-out Yes or No vote. 23. Has not, the export traele been built up on the Government guarantee*?—There" was no guarantee when Buxton and Co. arranged the exporting. 24. What were the results there ? —Entirely satisfactory to the growers. 25. Have you had more: trouble since the guarantee than before ? —Yes. 26. Do you think it is possible to do without the, guarantee ? —I do. 27. You think it woulel be: possible ? —Yes. 28. The Minister would be very pleased to hear that, if he thought it was right ? —Yes. 29. Did you say in your statement that you produced 450,000 cases of fruit in your district"?— I woulel like to qualify that. In the: whole of the Nelson Province: I think about 450,000 cases of fruit, are produced. 30. From how many acres ? —1 could not'telFyou. 31. You do not know the acreage ? —No. 32. With respect to the question of local control : Yeiu feel strongly against that ?—Yes, i~

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33. What do you think of the system of voting in connection with the local control ? —lf the Bill passes it would be a fair thing. 34. On that number of trees ?—What is the number of trees ? 35. One hundred and twenty fruit-trees. Every grower with not less than 120 fruit-trees has a vote ? —Yes. 36. Do you think that would be satisfactory enough ? —Oh, yes, if the Bill goes through—but we would rather not see it go through. 37. You woulel rather not have; to take a vote: ?—Yes. 38. Take no poll at all ?—No. 39. Mr. Corrigan] You think, Mr. Owen, that the majority of the fruitgrowers at tho present moment are satisfied with the present conditions ?—-No, I would not go that far—l would not say that. 40. I understood you to say that the fruigrowers wore satisfied with the present conditions ? — Oh, no, I did not say that. 41. Well, what, conditions do you think are necessary to improve the industry ? —My own private opinion is this : that until commercial enterprise has a right to take a hand in the matter it will never be a success. 42. 1 thought that you, as a fruitgrower, would have in. your mind some idea as to how the industry could be improved ?—Well, that is my opinion. I say we should go back to the old methoel of dealing. We have thoroughly organized business concerns in Nelson capable of eloing it. If we were to do that the industry would be more successful than it is to-day. 43. That is your idea ?—Yes. And I think anything of this sort is simply bolstering the thing up. 44. So far as the export business is concerned, elo you think it fair for a man who does not export to have a vote ?—Yes. 45. If he does not export ? —Yes. If a man does not export this year, that does not say that he will not export next year. 46. I mean, taking a vote so far as export is concerned ? —Yes. I think that every fruitgrower is a prospective exporter. If a- man does not export to-day, that does not say that he will not be an exporter to-morrow. 47. Well, of course, you understand, when this Bill was drawn up, that portion was intended to refer to particular fruitgrowers ? —But they aro all fruitgrowers. I can assure you that we fruitgrowers aro gradually becoming less. Ido not think you will see any new people coming into the fruit business. We have reached the zenith of fruit-production so far as the industry in Nelson is concerned. 48. Can you give us any idea as to how much fruit is exporteel from Riwaka ? —No, I e;oukl not, sir ; I coulel not, offhand. 49. You say that, roughly, 450,000 cases were produced ? —No, not in Riwaka : that was in Nelson. There were 190,000 cases exported, all told. 50. You cannot give us any figures in regard to the Riwaka part where you come from ? —I cannot give you the amount exported ; but we estimate that Riwaka produces about 100,000 cases. 51. You could not tell us what it exports of that 100,000 cases ? —No, I could not. 52. How many acres of orchard have you got yourself ? —I have about 20 acres now, sir. 53. Could you give us any idea what you got off your 20 acres ? —I got a debit, 54. How much fruit ? —Somewhere about 3,000 cases. 55. Ami out of that 3,000 cases can you give us any idea as to how much you exported ?—Yes ; about 590 cases. 56. Mr. Lysnar] You say that a person should not be debarred from a vote because he does not export fruit ? —That is so. 57. Weiuld you suggest, as an alternative, that a person should be qualified to vote according to the area of his orchard ? You elo not want a man with a few fruit-trees behind his house to be, called a fruitgrower ? —No. The Bill provides for that. I think the grower must have not loss than 120 trees. 58. I am speaking of tho export voting, and I want to get from you what you suggest as an alternative ? —I should put it in the same category as provided in the local control, making the minimum 120 trees. 59. Mr. Hudson] Do you think, Mr. Owen, that anything ought to be elone in connection with fruitgrowing matters in regard to organization ? —I cannot see that anything further can be done, Mr, Hudson, from a commercial point of view, without the ordinary commercial guidance. 60. Weiulel not the proposed Boarel, have, power to get assistance from commercial firms or any one else ? —Well, in the past, in our elistrict, the idea has been to completely cut out any commercial interests. They were looked upon as greedy middlemen. We did try to stop their profits and get those profits for ourselves, but it has not left us in any better position, as you know. 61. You think it would be a good thing if everybody had a free hand in regard to export: you think that they should be able, to do as they like ? —No, I would not go that far. But I think you have sufficient machinery already to deal with export through the federation, because you have also tho Horticultural. Division, to control the quality, and supervise tho packing, and attend to it until the fruit arrives in London. 62. But tho federation, has no power to stop me sending to any market I like ?—I do not think that you should be stopped, provided you comply with tho conditions of the Horticultural Division.

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63. Outside of Government supervision you think they ought to have a free hand ? —Certainly. 64. And that wc should get back to the position as it was before the war, and give every commercial house and every grower a free hand, so that they could deal with Buxton and Co. again ?— Yes, I think that woulel be best. 65. And other similar firms ?—Yes. 66. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] Can you tell us what Buxton and Co. charged per case for shipping ? —I. could not say. Their total charge for shipping, commission, and all either charges was ss. 6d. per case. 67. You know that tho federation only charges Bd. per case ? —Yes. 68. Are you not aware that in many cases the variations in prices given by Buxton and Co. were as much as Is. per case for the same quality of fruit ? —Yes. 69. How do you account for that ? —lt depends to a very great extent on the position of the orchard in the country, and the conditions under which the fruit was grown. 70. Is it not a fact that Buxton and Co. only shipped to England on consignment.?—Yes. 71. And charged 3d. per case for doing so ?—Yes. 72. And they availed themselves of the Government guarantee behind the consignment, ?— Yes. 73. Where would you be without the. guarantee ? —I am quite satisfied that Buxton anel Co. areprepared to export fruit without the guarantee. 74. Would not that be because they are looking for a monopoly ? —I do not, think so. 75. They were practically in that position in pre-war times ? —I do not think so. Cliff Lewis Kelltng examined. (No. 34.) 1. The Chairman] What is your full name? —Cliff Lewis Kelling. 2. And your occupation ?—I am an orchardist. 3. Where ? —ln Motueka. lam in partnership with my father, Mr. OA. Kelling. 4. Will you make a statement ? —Well, gentlemen, I have been sent across by my father to speak against this Control Bill. After discussing it on Monday night he wisheel me to come across anel speak against it. His reasons for this are his previous dealings in three other combined fruitgrowers' associations that have proved very unsatisfactory, and he has lost heavily through them. So far as control this year is concerned, it has been disastrous for us. As for this Bill, we cannot place any cemfidence in any grower that we know of that woulel be likely to be appointed to the Board. If the Control Board this year had managed all our fruit there is no doubt that we woulel have been well on the debit side. Under control our charges amounted approximately to 50 per cent. I think Mr. Hudson will remember that, in. conversation with my father he complained of his returns for fruit. He told my father that he: hael sent, 190 case:s, and that when ho deducted his e:xpenses he had just Is. left. He had just, Is. left, and then I believe he had to pay his man for working on his place. Well, as I have said, our dealings through eiur Control Boards have proveel absolutely disastrous. Prior to that we, dealt through Buxton and Co., and. we were very well satisfied indeed at tho, prices we; received. We contend that private enterprise is far more satisfactory to us. I can give you a few figures in connection with our present control, as it affected us. We sent 600 cases through the control, and the gross price received was £130 10s. 2d. That was for 600 cases. 5. Mr. Corrigan] Your gross return was £130 10s. 2d. They were sold through the control ? — Yes. 6. Not exported ?— No. 7. Wore they sold in Wellington ? —I coulel not say that they were sold in Wellington. The control charges generally amounted to £64 2s. 7d., leaving a balance of £76 7d. 7d. I averaged out the control charges per case, and they came to 2s. 2d. Neiw, as I have told you, gentlemen, we coulel not carry on if we had put all our fruit through the control. For the export wc contend that every bona fide fruitgrower shoulel have a vote. Ido not think I have very much more to say, because Mr. Owen has said a good deal with respect to what I was geiing to submit to you ; but, speaking for my father and myself, I wish to say that the attitude, the Riwaka Association has taken up is exactly the attitude we take up ourselves. Gentlemen, the figures I have given you can be verified. As a consequence of the charges of the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council we cannot see eiur way to continue with it. I proeiuce the charges eif the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council, and that is what I back up my evidence with. 8. Mr. Field] Do they show the expenses incurred ? —They show the, expenses on the different shipments sold by them. Looking through these accounts you will e:ven find that they cannot keep their books correct. 9. Mr. Hudson] That has been put right, and there, has been a change in the office staff ? —I cannot help that. The fact of the matter is that mistakes are shown in the returns. 10. Do you and yemr father think it would be just as well to let things go on as they are, and not attempt, on the part of the, industry, to organize properly ?—My father is quite willing, Mr. Hudson, to have a Board, but he cannot see, in view of the way this control is to be operated, that it will do him any good. He has been taken down so many times in connection with these different things that he would sooner work on his own account and take the risk himself. 11. Of course, the ielea of bringing forward this Bill is because things have been unsatisfactory, and the voluntary control organizations have been failures, and something is suggested on more or less the same lines as the Dairy Control Board : have you thought of that phase of the question ?— I cannot, sec how it can be put on the same lines as the Dairy Control Board. This has not proved

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itself so far, and, furthermore, it has to be taken into consideration that the question of dealing with butter and cheese is quite a different matter from dealing with fruit, due to the fact that fruit is a perishable commodity. 12. At any rate, you do not approve of the legislation that is proposed ? —No, Sir. 13. Mr. Field] You are against both local and export control ?—Yes. 14. Is the district of Riwaka solid em this matter ? —I am not speaking for Riwaka. As I have already said, I am appearing before: this Committee on behalf of my father and myself. 15. Ts Motueka solid em this subject ? —I cannot answer as to that. I have heard that there is elissatisfaction on this present control. 16. Have you any idea what woulel be: the: result if a referendum were taken among the fruitgrowers of the Nelson District ? No, Sir. 17. Mr. Corrigan] You gave us the figures of what you got for 600 cases that you produced: do yeiu produce any more: than that, or was that the whole of your production ? There were 708 cases that were produced for export. 18. What did you receive for that? -The returns aro not through yet. 1 may say that they were shipped through the Motuoka Association. 19. Has that consignment been sold yet ? —We have had returns for some:. 20. Can you give; us the return for this particular lot in question ?— -I do not think I can at the present, moment. 21. Weil, can yeiu give us some idea as to whether or not the fruit you exported paid yeiu better than tho 600 cases you referred to ? —We: came out on.the debit side so far as the 600 cases were concerned ; but I am unable to give, you the correct figures. 22. Apparently, then, the fruit you exported will be the only fruit that you made a profit on ?— This year the fruit we exported will be the only fruit that we will make a profit out of. 23. Have you gone right through this Bill ?—Yes, so far as I can understand. 24. Have you gone through it clause by clause ? —Yes, sir. 25. Is there anything contained in the Bill that will help you as a fruitgrower ?—No. 26. Not one: clause will help you ?—No. 27. Are you satisfied with the conditions that obtain at the present time so far as the: fruit industry is concerned ? —No, not under the present control. 28. As it exists to-day — that is, the: voluntary control — you. are, not compelled, to put your fruit through the control unless you so desire ?—We signed up with the control in the first place because it seemed to be a very good thing, and it appeared as if it would, improve. 29. It did not realize your expectations, I take it ?—No, not by any means. 30. You thought it was all right theoretically beffore you signed up, but it has not worked out satisfactorily, so far as you arc concerned ? —Not by any means. 31. Both you and your father must have formed some opinion as to its not working satisfactorily ? —I cannot see any reason why the Nelson Provincial Fruitgrowers' Council, could not get the price offered by the auctioneers. The price did not affect the position so much ;it was the overhead charges that took the profit away. 32. Do you not think that through a combination of fruitgrowers you would be: able to get better prices for your fruit ? —I do not think so. I think wc would do better under private enterprise. 33. That is the reason for your saying that you do not like any clause in the: Bill —in other words, there is nothing in the Bill that is going to help you ? —That is so. 34. Are you able to keep going under present conditions, eir do you think that the present condition of things will send you to the wall ? —Under present conditions we: will go to the wall. 35. In connection with the balance of £76 7s. 7d., you only gave us what you got for the cases less the control charges : have you gone into the question as to what it cost you to produce that £76 7s. 7d. ? —lt costs us over and above that to produce that amount. 36. You cannot give us the exact figures ?—1 have never taken the trouble to work out those charges. 37. What is the size of your orchard ? —Twenty acres. 38. Do you do any other class of farm-work, other than fruitgrowing ?—We have eight acres under cultivation in oats. 39. What would be the size of the whole of your property ? —Thirty-five acres. 40. Mr. Langstone] According to these account sales the brokers' charges are also the control charges. I notice in one particular account sales that there is an item "less broker's charges, £6 16s. 6d." : are they auctioneer's charges under the control ? —As far as I can see that fruit was sold on the open market and sold at broker's commission. 41. And the control charges there are about one-half of the brokerage charges : according to this account sales the brokerage charges are £6 16s. 6d. and the control charges amount to £3 lis. Bd., which is about one-half ? —Yes. 42. Do you think there would be any way of eliminating any of those charges ? —I cannot see any reason why they should not be eliminated. 43. Supposing Buxton and Co. had to deal with that fruit, would they have boon able to do it cheaper ? —The only thing I can say is that previously they came to the orchard and bought the fruit straight out. All we did was to supply the cases, and they did the rest. 44. What price did you get for your fruit when they bought it straight out ? —From ss. 6d. to 6s. per case. 45. And you supplied the cases and everything eiso ? —We supplied the cases only. 46. Mr. Corrigan] Did you not do tho picking of the fruit ? —Yes, we did the picking of the, fruit. 47. You picked the fruit and put it in cases ? —We did all our own work.

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48. Mr. Langstone] You apparently had no other charges at all ?—That is so. 49: No brokerage to pay for ? —No. 50. And you received as much as you do now ?—Far more, sir ; and we: would be quite satisfied to go back to that condition of affairs. 51. Do you think it would be possible to go back to those conditions ? —I think so. 52. Do you think that the oontrol interfered with the marketing of fruit to such an extent that it brought the price down ?—No, sir, I think the trouble is bad management. 53. We have been told that they sent fruit away from the: Wellington market in order to keep up the price on the: Wellington market: would Messrs. Buxton and Co. elo that ? —I think Messrs. Buxton and Co. would get the best price they could for their fruit. It would be their price, because they bought the fruit f.o.b. from the orchard. 54. Do they finance many orchardists in your district ? —Not that I know of. 55. Have they any mortgage over any of them ? —They have no mortgage over us, and I can only speak so far as wc ourselves are concerned. 56. You have apparently no confidence in the fruitgrowers' federation handling your fruit at all ?—I cannot think of any one, nor could I appoint any one, that I could safely leave this work to be: carried out. 57. Would you be quite prepared to leave it to somebody who knows nothing about fruit ?— I do not know to whom you are referring. 58. The auctioneers do not know much about the growing of fruit ?—Wo did better when we, were dealing with the auctioneers last year. 59. What do you say with respect to the Government withdrawing the guarantee in connection with the fruit ? —On the export ? 60. Yes ? —I have nothing to say against the Id. per pound guarantee. 61. If the Government is going to continue the guarantee:, do you not think it is right that it should have some say in regard to the fruit exported ?—I submit that it has a big say now. 62. In what way ? —As a consequence of the Id. per pound guarantee we have to submit to a regulation packing as well as submit to a certain standard of fruit to be exported. 63. In the event of the fruit being sold at a loss it means that the Government has got to make: good up to Id. per pound ; but if the fruit is sold at a profit, then the Government has no responsibility : that is the position, is it not ? —Yes, that is so. 64. And you think for taking that responsibility the Government should have no say in the marketing of fruit at all ?—Not so far as controlling the whole: fruit is concerned. 65. Do you think that private people would do that? Do you think you could go to Me:ssrs. Buxton and Co., or anyboely else for that matter, and say, " You guarantee us up to id. per pound and if wo win there will be no responsibility, but if we lose you will have to pay Id. per pound for the fruit, and we do not want you to have any say in the matter " ; do you think they would take up that position ? —I cannot answer that question. 66. It would not be reasonable to expect them to do that ? —I do not know what Messrs. Buxton and Co. might do in the matter. 67. Have tho fruitgrowers considered the danger of the id. per pound guarantee being withdrawn in the: event of no Board being set up ? —Would the fruitgrowers rather have a Board set up anel the; Id per pound continued, or would they rather have no Control Board at all and the id. per pound guarantee withdrawn ?—Speaking for ourselves, I cannot see that it would make any difference to us. 68. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] You are aware that tho federation is dependent on the orchard-tax every year ?—Yes, that is so. 69. Mr. Hudson] You mentioned the name of Messrs. Buxton and Co. as having done business with them, did you not ? —Yes. 70. How long is it since you have sold your fruit to that company ? —I think it was in 1917. 7.1. Did thay give up buying fruit, eir elid you discontinue: selling your fruit to them?—They discontinued buying the fruit. 72. They did not operate last year or the year before ? —No. 73. Woulel the:y resume operations in the event of this Bill not being passed ? —Yes, I think so, 71. And would you calculate on selling to Messrs. Buxton and Co., or some other similar firm, in the event of this Bill not being put through ?^Yes. 75. Mr. Corrigan] What is your reason for assuming that Messrs. Buxton and Co. will come into the business again in the event of this Bill not being passed ? —I have no reason to assume that they would come back into the business ; but I have no doubt that Messrs. Buxton and Co. are like other firms—that is to say, they are willing to speculate in connection with the fruit business. 76. Did any firms go around last year and buy the fruit direct from the orchards ? —I am not in a position to answer that question, because Ido not know. Before concluding, Mr. Chairman, 1 would like: to say that I do not think I made myself quite clear in connection with the matter of 2s. 2d. per case. We have to pay out our packing-charges, which amount to 2s. 6d. approximately. George Witty examined. (No. 35.) 1. The Chairman] You are a member of the House of Representatives for the district of Riccarton, are you not ?—Yes. 2. You wish to make a statement to the Committee in connection with the Bill now before us ? — Yes. 1 would like to read out to you a letter which. I have received from Mr. H. E. Morgan, secretary of the Canterbury Fruitgrowers' Association, and it reads- —

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Christchurch, 27th September, 1924, " Dear Sir, —It is reported in Christchurch that at a public meeting of fruitgrowers Mr. F. Sisson supported control. Now, the fact of the matter is that it was not a public meeting at all, but a meeting of the provincial council of Canterbury, at which meeting both Mr. Sisson and myself strongly opposed local control, and only favoured export control as far as keeping the standard of fruit up, for which there is machinery already provided. Since reading the Bill we are opposed to it in its entirety. At the only public meeting of fruitgrowers, held on 7th June, to discuss the Bill, Mr. Sisson moved a resolution strongly coneiemning the local control of fruit, which was carried, unanimously. —H. E. Morgan." Now, Sir, I am also a fruitgrower, and at the meeting, which was referred to as a public meeting, there were thirteen present, and four of the number out of the thirteen present were not fruitgrowers at all. 'Che result of the resolution against local control was seven to six. They were in favour, it is true, with respect to the export of fruit under proper supervision. As you are all aware, Canterbury does not export fruit at all, and if this Bill passes, especially the local-control portion of it, it will be ruinous to the fruitgrowers. I may say that in Canterbury the growers sell their second-grade fruit to the hawkers, and if they are prevented from getting that class of fruit the poor people will be prevented from buying the quantity of fruit they buy now. It. has been suggested that the fruit the hawkers buy is rubbish ; but I would like: to point out that the hawkers take it around to the houses of the people, who are able to see what they are buying, and they pay from 2d. to 3d. per pound. The aim seems to me to be to do away with the second grade of fruit in order to get the best price for the remainder of the fruit. It has to be taken into consideration that fruit is a perishable commodity. It is not like: meat, butter, or cheese, because it has to be picked at a certain time, and that is where the provincial control comes in, because the respective provinces have: different times for picking the: fruit, and it must be picked when it is ripe, and marketed accordingly. This Bill, particularly the second part of it, is the most ridiculous Bill that I have seen in my life, and if it comes into operation it is going to drive; people out of business. It is true that in Canterbury, before they saw the contents of the Bill, they carried resolutions in favour of it, even, the local-control portion of it; but since that time petitions have been received from all parts of Canterbury objecting to it, and I understand the same applies to Otago. I submit that if Nelson wants protection, let the fruitgrowers there have protection, but Canterbury and Otago shoulel be excluded, I ask, why take a vote ? If a vote were taken you will have certain men going round looking for billets —that is, men who have failed as fruitgrowers. They are tho agitators, and, as I say, they are looking for positions for themselves as fruit experts. I repeat again that it is a ridiculous Bill, especially the second portion of it. lam in favour of tho e:xport control, and my reason for saying that is due to the: fact that the Government is guaranteeing the fruitgrowers up to id. per pound ; but I believe that the people would prefer selling the fruit in their own way rather than by having the guarantee. I may say that every man has to see to the picking of his fruit, otherwise he will lose his market if the fruit is not up to standard. I think that if the Bill is carried, especially the second portion of it, it will mean that the poor people will have to pay more for their fruit, because if the fruit shows spots, or is bruised, or is affected by spraying, it cannot be exported, on account of the standard having to be kept up ; but to say that those apples have to be thrown away because a few people want to get the top price for their fruit is, to my mind, absolutely wrong. J. A. Campbell examined. (No. 36.) 1. The Chairman] What is your full name, Mr. Campbell ? —James Angus Campbell. 2. And your position ? —I am the Director of the Horticultural Division of the. Department of Agriculture. 3. Will you make a statement to the: Committee ?—Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I have been seventeen years an officer of the Department, and. during that time I have boon associateel with the fruit industry, and I am well acquainted with the fruitgrowers' problems, both from the; production and from tho marketing point of view. Those problems, as you will have gathered from the evidence given before this Committee, are fairly extensive. The business has been carrioel on more or less in its present state for years. The question now asked is, what is the condition of tho fruitgrowing industry ? Well, the fruitgrowing industry, in short, is in a precarious condition. There are many growers who are fortunately situated —there may be many factors operating, possibly, in favour of those who aro doing well—but there are a large number of them who are on the verge of bankruptcy, and the rank and file are right up against it. The whole of them cannot possibly carry on unless some change is made in connection with the handling anel marketing of their fruit. From some of the evidence that has been given before this Committee one would imagine that the fruitgrower is an ignoramus. That is a misstatement altogether. There are as intelligent men in the fruitgrowing industry as you will find in any other occupation. And considerable progress has been made in the industry during the past few years, but it has not yet reached, a point that is at all beneficial to the grower. Now, mention has been made of co-operative societies. It is very evident, where a movement of that bind take:s place in a, district, that the growers of that district arc not satisfied with the conditions as they see them, and are making an attempt to improve them. After years of individual effort, which can be termed practically a failure, tho ielea of improving the position by the formation of co-operative seicieties gained ground practically in every elistrict in New Zealand, showing that no district was satisfied with the: conditions then applying. Co-operative societies were formed in Auckland, Hawke's Bay, Nelson, Canterbury, anel Otagei. Neiw, witnesses have mentioned the failure eif these co-operative societies, but the whole of them have not been a failure, and, even though the societies have not

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been anything like as successful as they should have been, they have improved the position. But I may say here that in regard to packing-sheds, cool stores, &c, that have been erected the " Co-ops." have done good work, but the societies and companies themselves have eventually gone out of business, and, unfortunately, their liabilities have been very largely carried by the Government, owing to loans made under the, Fruit-preserving Industry Act to those societies. But, even though those organizations have been a failure, they are only a failure in ceimmon with such movements iu every pmrt of the worlei. Reference has been made to the success of eo-opierafion in America, speakers holding, no doubt, that in lieu of a Control Bill co-operative societies shoulel fill the position. Now, the experiences of the, American co-operative societies have been, unfortunately, worse' than anything applying to New Zealand ; and it was only when adversity forceel the, growers to that pieiint where they were compelled to elo something, such as we have experienced this last year or so in New Zealand, that they were able to get their growers to hold together. The reason for that failure in America is largely the reason for the failure in Now Zealand, and is primarily due to the; fact that they had no control, when required, over their growers and. shareholders. That has been the position. Now, the handling of fruit, as has been previously indicated, is a very intricate matter. It is very much more difficult to handle fruit than quite, a number of the other primary proelucts; but it is not impossible by any manner of means. It must be recognized that the eliffieulties of management and handling are very much greater in connection with fruit organizations than in connection with any other organization. Therefore it docs not follow that the managers of these, co-operative societies have not been capable men. The fact is that they have been up against almost an impossible proposition. None of the societies, over hero or in America, that lam aware of, have undertaken to organize the profit end—that is, the selling end. Now, this is not a movement with a view to holding up the public, or to raise prices to the consumer. The idea at the back of this Control Bill is to bring into being something that has never existed in the past —that would enable organization to take place both in the interests of the consumers and in tho interests of the producers. At the present time the fruitgrowers are on the verge of bankruptcy, and the consumer is paying far too much for his fruit. It has been a question of overproduction—overproduction under the conditions now applying. But the trouble in reality is not overproduction but underconsumption. You can never increase the consumption to any extent under the present conditions, for the reason that fruit is a perishable commodity, and that it is a cheap and bulky article; which makes transportation difficult. Fruit should be made available to the community at a reasonable price. If the grower were to receive anything like an adequate return for his labour it would be one of the best occupations on the land. The: production of fruit on a reasonable selling basis, being a form of intensive cultivation, woulel return infinitely more than any other of our agricultural activities. But, getting back to the co-operative societies in America and New Zealand, that I said have been a failure there, as they have been a failure here : When I was in America in 1919 they had some excellent co-operative societies in operation. Growers had learnt the lesson—eir, as it now appears, they thought they had learnt the lesson—of adversity by their past failures, anel those co-operative societies formed subsequently appicared as though they would stand anything. But since that time there has been a change, and most of those societies have been in difficulties. The growers stuck by the societies while they were prosperous, but they had also proprietary concerns working in most of the districts, and the growers consielered these rather beneficial, as they acted as a check on the operations of the co-opierative societies. Well, these proprietary concerns —to some extent, at any rate —gradually sapped the strength of the co-operative societies, and when the latter struck bad times they were very soon in difficulties. Since 1919 the co-operative societies in America have been in a bad way. Many of them have gone out of existence-. The great North-'west Fruit Association, an association that has played a very important part in the fruit industry of the north-western States of the United States, went out of operation altogether. And there was another association in the Okanagan Valley, in British Columbia, that seemed to be an ideal organization. Some ten or twelve fruitgrowing associatiems situated in different parts had linkoel together and formed, what they termed the Okanagan Fruitgrowers' Union. Well, they were- getting on beautifully. The Hon. Mr. Triggs, when he was over in Canada, investigated the operations of that organization, and he has spoken and written very glowingly on its operations. Well, they practically failed too when they struck hard times, simply because they could not hold the growers together. The growers failed to appreciate what the organization had done for them under other circumstances and they would not stick to the organization when it struck bad times. So much so that we have had communications to our office from over- there wanting some information with regard to New Zealand, thoy being under the erroneous impression that we had some form of compulsory 00-opera-tion operating in this country. And there are indieations that a greater amount of control is needed wherever fruitgrowing is carried on. In Australia there is a movement in the same direction. The fruitgrowing industry over there is very much like what it is in Now Zealand. Some; of tho grerwers are: doing well, but the majority arc in a poor position. lam saying that judging from returns. It is a long time since I have been in Australia, but I believe they are endeavouring te) place their house in order as quickly as they piossibly can. The failure of co-operative societies in Now Zealand, as 1 have said before, has been carried, very largely by the Government. So far as the: Horticultural Division has been concerned, we have: had to a very considerable extent to investigate and recommend any loans under the Fruit-preserving Industry Act. I may say that, from past experience, had we, this work to do again, I personally would not recommend another loan unless there was some means shown by the organization eif binding the: growers together. The tremble: with these' organizations is that when they strike trouble the first year, which is likely to be their worst year, growers who had been very strong in their agitation for a Government loan, and had resented any doubt as to the ability of tho proposed association to carry on successfully prior to the loan being granted,

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are often among the first to get from uneler and leave the association in the lurch, with the result that it goes to the wall, and. the Government has to carry the load. Uneler normal circumstances the Government mortgage: is quite all right, but unfortunately some of them are connected with buildings so situated that apart from the; use: they are put to in connection with the: fruit, they are' of comparatively little: value. In the city they are quite a safe proposition, but in the: country, as there is no other use for them, they become just " white: elephants," and it is a difficult matter tei realize anything like what has been lent on them. The failures of the co-operative societies have l boon keenly felt in the various districts, but some have not failed, and are carrying on, but not to the extent they should be, owing to the fact that they are not receiving the full support of the growers. The adverse position grew to such an extent in the Nelson District particularly that they were prepared to do anything, and a number of the growers there, ultimately consented to a. voluntary control, which was a movement far in advance: of anything previously attempted. It is marvellous that any man was able to get such a large number of growers to consent to a voluntary control, they realizing that all remaining outside control would naturally be, up against the, scheme. However, they succeeded in establishing the voluntary control in Nelson on a splendid footing. It has been criticized, and it is open to criticism ; but in the main this attempt, unlike many of the: attempts in the past, has been an heroic one, anel whether it is a failure: or not is open to question. Its first year's operations have not been as successful as they might have been, but at the same time' it has done an immense amount of good. With regarei to that organization, J woulel mention one or two of tho phases that have never been discussed before this Committee. Now, the consumer is entitled to his fruit at a fair and reasonable price, but no consumer is entitled to fruit, or any other commodity, lower than the cost of production, provided there has been no "wild-cat" speculation in land or the means of production. If the means of production are, normal, all that the public can expect is the produce at a rate, which will pay the, producer —not a rate that will not pay the producer. That is a fair and reasonable view to take of the position. In the past, through the methods of the disposal of the fruit in Wellington and elsewhere, the majority of the consumers got their fruit at a price that was extremely high, while others who were; able to attend the auction-markets and purchase the low-grade fruit were able to get their fruit infinitely below the cost of production. Some people wonder how it is that fruit can be sold below the cost of production. Nobody, of course, can carry on and sell their produce, below the cost of production. But a large, number of the fruitgrowers have had to purchase their cases, and have hael, to meet the bill for those cases, and they sent their fruit forward just for the sole purpose of getting sufficient return for their fruit to meet their case account. Now, although fruit in Wellington has been sold below the cost of production in those instances, very little of it has reached the average consumer. What happens to that fruit it is difficult to say. At times it gets into the retail shops, and is there sorted out, anel the worst destroyed, the best sold at the higher prices. But uneler this control effort put forward by Neison last year tho position was entirely changed. Fruit was put on the auction markets at Wellington at fixed prices—at very reasonable prices. It took some of them all their time to give a fair return to the grower ; but the aim of the Control Board, was not to bolster up prices, but to try and equalize the market in such, a way that the grower would have something stable to work on, rather than to have a high price, one elay and a bad price the following day. The householders of Wellington were also in a much better position to secure fruit at a minimum of trouble and at a reasonable price. All that a householeler had to do under those circumstances was to ring up tho auctioneer. He was not requireel to leave his business and go down to the auction-mart and bid for the fruit. He could ring up the auctioneer and ask for "Fancy" grade Jonathans at a price of 7s. or 7s. 6d., and give: the necessary directions regarding the address, and tho carriers would take that fruit to any part of Wellington at a reasonable rate. I have had fruit delivered to my home —" Fancy " grade Jonathans —costing me 7s. 6d. delivered at Island Bay. Unfortunately this scheme for supplying fruit in Wellington was not sufficiently well known, and it was therefore not fully availed of ; but as a scheme of that kind progresses it becomes well known, and the consumption of fruit in Wellington could easily be doubled under that system. Were a Control Board in Nelson, or anywhere else, to operate anything like the Nelson Control Board of last year it would be quite a different matter. A Control Board, if necessary, could do a great deal for a district without actually handling the sale eif fruit. You can imagine that people having the experience • that I have just outlined have: a, difficulty in financing for the coming season. All kinds of schemes are devised. The fruitgrowers' associations play a very important part in those, and also the: Now Zealand Fruitgrowers' Federation ; but, still, no organization can finance a man unless he can show some security. Now, we will imagine that in Hawke's Bay there is a Control Board, and that that Control Board is merely a Control Board in name —because I am sure that when the Control Boards arc adopted the; best men that can bo selected will be elected. I do not agree that there arc no fruitgrowers who woulel be capable of running such a Board. I think there, are many capable: men in the fruit industry who would manage' such a Boarel. satisfactorily. Take: the successful managers of either businesses, anel note the disabilities they have had to work under. Many of them have had groat difficulties in the past, but now they are a success. Well, I say, imagine a Control Board being brought into operation in Hawke's Bay. The eandielates for election will declare a policy, and that policy, to my mind, will be the popular opinion in the locality, and no Board set up will advance much further than tho popular opinion of the locality as far as its operations are concerned. Now, it is quite possible for a Board to touch nothing at all other than the standardization of fruit. That, as far as one can judgefrom information from almost every district, is urgently required by the intelligent and progressive fruitgrower. At fruitgrowers' meetings, and association meetings, and at the conferences, the question of the low-grade fruit and its detriment to the sale of the high-quality fruit has been one of the prominent questions. Well, if they did nothing more than undertake tho standardization question

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and take a hand, in the organization of transport, they would be of value to the community ; and, as the fruitgrowing community's confidence increases or decreases with respect to the Board, so the Board's operations would be increased or decreased. That Board would serve another useful purpose : The associations at the present time endeavour to make contracts with millers for case timber; but they can only arrange those contracts in as far as they have control over the assets of the growers they are dealing with. That leaves many unprotected or unsupported by the associations. Now, a Control Board handling the returns of the grower would be in an infinitely better position, as far as any bank or financial institution is concrened, in protecting and assisting the: fruitgrower in this respect. There is an infinite amount of assistance that could be rendered by the Control Boarel to the fruitgrowing community in that way alone. Now, in. the past very silly competition lias been brought into play amongst fruitgrowers in the various markets. The fruitgrowers of Nelscn or elsewhere will send fruit to Aueklanel; that fruit will bo sold by auction at any of the smaller towns, eir in the City if Auckland, under the hammer, and. possibly, through being knocked about on the: way, or the state of the market, it has sold at a very low price. Now, you would think that would be sufficient to prevent them sending any more fruit in that way to those particular markets ; but there is a fresh grower every day springing up, and doing exactly the same thing, throughout the whole of the year. They are selling below the cost of production, and ruining tho market not only for the Auckland grower but for all other growers as well. Now, how could that sort of thing under the present circumstances be overcome ? The only way to overcome a matter of that kind is for the peofile concerned to got into touch with one another and try and make a working arrangement. But how would it be possible for the grower in Auckland to get into touch with the growers in Nelson, Hawke's Bay, or anywhere else ? It would be, an unending business. It could not reasonably be done. Well, now, supposing there is a Control Board; supposing Nelson decided in favour of a Control Boarel: that Control Board has an exclusive knowledge of what happens in those other markets —a much better knowledge than individual growers can possibly have—and could get into touch with the local fruit organization in, tho Auckland District and make some working arrangement. If Auckland had a Control Boarel also, then a working arrangement could much more readily bo made. Now, take the Pahiatua market: that market, to some extent, belongs to Hastings, because it is closer to Hastings than it is to Nelson. There is, however, bound to be competition under any circumstances between growers or growers' organizations, and that competition will continue to take jilaco ; but Pahiatua can be regarded as being within the sphere of the Hastings fruitgrowers, although they have no monopoly over that market. In the event of Nelson, sending fruit to Pahiatua you might have the competition I have outlined, whereas by a propier arrangement the matter could be adjusted. Apparently the objects e)f tho Bill have been largely misunderstood, and many things have been stated as to what could bo done under this Bill —for instance, it has been suggested that the Export Control Board could go to the growers in a certain elistrict and order a certain amount of fruit to bo set aside for export. I may say that nothing of the sort can take place under the Bill. It is my firm opinion that the fact that this misunderstaneling has arisen is elue to the want of knowledge, or misrepresentation that has arisen through one reason and another in those respective districts. Tho trouble is that people not knowing anything about tho matter have former! their opinions from certain misleading newspaper publications in connection with this Bill, and consequently they will not have anything to do with it. I may say that it is a difficult matter to get growers to support any movement unanimously no matter how advantageous it may appear to be, but it is a very simple matter to poison the minds of growers against any such movement. To my mind a lot of the opposition that has arisen, lately has been through a want of knowledge: of the whole position. Now, in connection with both forms of control —that is, both export and local control —there is one direction in which they would be of great value. In the past, when approaching shipping companies or tho auctioneering firms for any improvements that would be in the interests of the fruitgrowers the, latter have made little headway. All such firms, in consequence of their past experience with fruitgrowers' do/putations, regardless of the latter's value on paper, know that they really represent themselves alone, and invariably nothing is done. At this stage I would like to say that I have nothing against tho local auctioneers, because thoy are doing the best work they possibly can ; but if a system such as is suggested in the Bill were, introduced matters could be put on a more satisfactory footing. I would like to say also that the retailer is generally condemned, but to my mind he is carrying on a ve 3 ,ry difficult business. It is a high-class business ; ho has to pay a high rent, anel, moreover, he, is dealing with a perishable commodity and has only a small turnover. Some people are of opinion that there are too many fruit-shops, but I believe that if you were to reduoe the number of fruit-shops you would proportionately reduce the consumption of fruit, because most people do not think of buying fruit until, they see tho fruit'-shops, and then they go in and make their purchases; and in my opinion the major portion, of the retailers' trade is what I would term a passing trade. The retailers' prices are high, but in all probability they are compelled to charge high prices on account of the perishable nature of the commodity ; but what I hold against the retailor is that every time a movement is started to improve certain things they use throats to boycott the movement, and those threats have been effective in the past. If the retailer can be relied upon to carry on this business satisfactorily to tho grower, then he should have the trade. If he eannot do so he has no right to boycott any other movement which is going to be of assistance to the fruitgrowers. I know of a few instances where tho threat of boycott has been very effective, and in consequence has interfered with many movements that have been mooted with a view to increasing the consumption of fruit in New Zealand. I was saying that on many occasions I remember questions of importance to the fruitgrowers being discussed by auctioneering firms. I have seen deputations from the New Zealand Fruitgrowers' Federation waiting on the

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auctioneering firms. The auctioneers, knowing that although it was a deputation officially representing the fruitgrowers, but being so weakly constructed as to be of no value in the case of a deadlock, have listened to the statements submitted to them and replied something to this effect: "We have listened with interest to what you have had to say and, being interested in the welfare of the industry, we are anxious to do our best for you, but we are not in a position to decide, this question now. We will retire, and our association will meet and you will be advised as to the result in a few days." Almost invariably the reply has been something to this effect: " Sorry, but we cannot fall in with your views." I submit that under control the matter would be decidedly different, because the Control Board, dealing both for the export and local sections, woulel speak practically as the owners of the fruit, and no organized concern could afford to treat the Control Board in the same manner as it has done even to the: strongest fruitgrowers' voluntary association. It would be compelled to listen, and, if necessary, the Board could take such action whereby it could get past the opposition that was standing in its way. It applies to many things : for instance, it applies to overseas shipping from Nelson to Wellington. Supposing the charge for conveying fruit from Nelson to Wellington was too high—l may say that it costs about Bs. per case to bring a single case eif fruit from Nelson to Wellington and landed in any of the places in town —the matter can be properly gone into and fixed up. d. Mr. Corrigan] You are speaking of one individual case, I take it ? —That is so. I elo not want to say that the price is too high, gentlemen, but I am merely using that in point of argument. Supposing that were the case, the individual grower, or the grower's' organizations, as they exist at the; present time, would have little or no chance of moving the shipping companies unless they were able to submit irrefutable arguments, or the men managing the concerns were generous enough to meet their wishes ; but if a Control Board such as is suggested were set up I feel sure that more satisfaction would be obtained than applies at the present time. As you are aware, there has been a great deal of trouble with sawmillers regarding the basis of cost. Tho cost of all materials has gone up very considerably since the war, although it is on the downward tendency now ; but practically everybody who is connected with the fruit business, with the exception of the grower, gets his percentage of profit out of the concern, and very often it would appear as though his percentage of profit was rather high, but there is no very satisfactory means of meeting that situation. The New Zealand Fruitgrowers' Federation, by virtue of the Government guarantee of Id. pier pound, has been placed in a position whereby it can operate to a certain extent, and it has been successful this year in obtaining considerable reductions in certain directions. In the matter eif financing the fruitgrowers, this could be arranged to work very satisfactorily to them under control. The Fruitgrowers' Federation at the present time is not able to do this in its entirety, because its trading with the growers is limited through the difficulties of safe book-keeping : that is, security regarding amounts has to be taken into account, as it has otherwise no hold over fruitgrowers in any way whatever. It is essential that advances be made to growers early in the, season to enable them to purchase supplies, and while it is possible to arrange this it is not a very satisfactory thing to elo so far as the federation is concerned. By virtue of the guarantee, once a grower's fruit is actually exported the federation is in a position tei make very liberal advances to the grower to help him to pay the cost of picking, cases, material, and the preparation of his fruit for the overseas market, and also to give him a margin on the fruit itself, but without that guarantee there would be no chance of anything of the kind being done. The federation's operations in the way of trading and advancing are restricted, because its working capital is not large enough and its restricted means of securing creelits. Its best means of securing credits at the present time is uneler the guarantee. The Control Board, however, would be in quite a different position, because it would be handling, if it elected to do so, the fruitgrower's fruit, and consequently woulel be in a more satisfactory position to back his credit than now applies. Now, taking the export phase of the Bill, much of what I have said in reference to local control, having to do with the force that a Board would have in bargaining with shipping companies, &c, over what can be done under present circumstances, applies also to export control. Then, the epiestion of representation has to be taken into account. You see that throughout the whole position in dealing with this matter the aim is to keep the cost down as low as possible. In fixing the representation in regard to the provinces, the question of the quantity of fruit exported, had to be taken into account, and also the geographical importance of the various parts of New Zealand. I elo not think there can be much objection taken to the arrangement outlined, in tho Bill. Nelson exporters probably have: the greatest grievance, because they export the major portion of the fruit. They have two representatives on the Board to three from other districts. If you were to give Nelson three and the other districts two, then it would be a Nelson Board : that is the elifficulty. The Nelson growers, in the main, are satisfied with this arrangement. Then, with regard to Marlbeirough, it lias been suggested that Marlborough should be; put into the Nelson District; but Marlborough, to my mind, is bettor in the Hawke's Bay and Wellington District. Of course, Marlbeirough is a separate province uneler the local-control provisions of the Bill, but in dealing with export it is quite a different matter. In elealing with export you have to look at the position from a different peiint of view entirely, and the geographical situation will play a very little part if you have the right men. Weil, the cost eif the: Control Boarel will be the 3d. per ease levy, so far as both local control and export is concerned. We have to keep in view tho aim of bringing about improvements in connection with export, anel the, question of expense is relative. If the business is improveel to tho e:xtent of 3d. per case, then the. grower can well afford to pay that extra 3d. ; and if they can get 6d. or over extra per case, then it is eif great advantage to the whole industry. It is a question of what these Boards will do for tho grower, and that should be taken into consideration when criticizing the expenditure. The question of interfering with the merchants has been taken up. I holel that there will be very little interference either with the individual or the

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merchants. If a private individual is exporting fruit now satisfactorily, the Board in all probability would allow him to continue until such time as his operations were detrimental to the welfare of the industry. Wc should take a reasonable view of the matter. Neither the Local nor the Export Control Boards are going to load themselves down with unnecessary work. Then, there is the matter of the private trader. Well, I hold that the private trader will be safeguarded very largely by the policy that is declared by a Board before it is electeel. I think it will be unwise to try and protect the private trader in the, Bill. I think he will bo safely protected by the Board even without pledges, because the Board will have more than sufficient to do, or more than it possibly woulel care to elo at the outset, in other directions. They would, no doubt, prefer tei let the private trader act, independently rather than take on the, additional labour of unnecessarily interfering with him. Where a man has a private trade that is satisfactory to himself and is in no way detrimental to the general welfare of the industry, it would, in my opinion, be, unwise to interfere with him, and I think a Board could be relied upon to let, him carry on. Then there is the matter of stanelardization, and the sale of low-grade fruit. It is hole! that tho elimination eif leiw-grade fruit from the local market would mean that the consumer woulel have to pay more. That, may be so. It just depends on what elistrict ho is in. That, is the advantage of having a Local Control Boarel. A Local Control Board in Canterbury might not set up the, same, standards as a Local Control Boarel in Nelson. Canterbury coulel possibly arrange feir a lower grade of fruit to bo made available. Canterbury, or any other province, would not come into any great amount eif competition with another province that hail eliminated the sale of low-grade fruit, owing to the fact that the low-grade fruit would not pay, because of the cost of carriage of the fruit for any distance ; and that would very largely safeguard the other provinces from unfair competition. Now, referring to the cost of the Control Beiard : It, is quite possible that at the outset the Control Boarel will operate without calling on the whole eif that 3d. Threepence is the maximum : it may be unnecessary to call up the whole of it. But if the whole of it is called up, then it will be with the object of effecting something that will bo worth more than the 3d. per case to the grower, and if the result is something more than, that 3d. per case to the grower, then the grower can have no objection. We have a difficult position at the present time here in Wedington. Without a Control Board it is a very difficult matter to settle. Our fruit which is exported to the Old Country is assembled in Wellington and placed in cool storage. The cooling is carried out with a view to preventing deterioration in transport—so that the fruit will be placed on the boat at a reasonable temperature. Now, there is always the danger and difficulty in the way of the engineer not bringing the fruit down to a proper temperature within a reasonable, time after putting to sea. If it is brought down to a proper temperature within, a reasonable time the fruit will very largely benefit. But, unfortunately, our cool storage in Wellington is not satisfactory. We have to use the Harbour Board cool store, anel that is altogether too big for the hanelling of fruit, although it is satisfactory for the handling of cheese. It has been designed and is used chiefly for the handling of cheese. Well, we have approached the Harbour Board with a view to having our fruit cooled in a smaller chamber, which would result in a rigid and proper system of precooling being introduced for our fruit prior to export. But that means a readjustment of the buildings, and the readjustment of the buildings will mean an increased cost for cool steirage. Now, some of the growers at the present time might decline to ship their fruit to Wellington and incur the additional expense of precoeiling as suggested, anel woulel ship it elireot without the precooling. Under a Board the position would be entirely different. Precooling is an absolute necessity, to my mind, in the proper carriage of fruit, and an increase of Id., 2d., 3d., or any sum at all within reason, that will enable us to put our fruit on the London market in good condition will be money well spent. During the past season apples have been selling at, good prices on the London market. Prices have been varying from 6s. up to 30s. For the majority of the fruit exported from here the prices for the different varieties run anywhere from 16s. to 21s. for sound fruit. Of course, there is quite a quantity sold at prices very much less than that, but even for the sound fruit there is usually a variation of 4s. or ss. per case. Well, neiw, it woulel pay the man who is selling his fruit at 4s. or ss. less than the normal rate to pay a little more to bring about a better position by means of cool storage. But the, difficulty is to convince him of this. Some organization must take this matter in hand anel decieie that certain action is necessary, anel then that action should be carried out, and the shipper should have to abide by the result. Now, with, respect to the question of pooling— that is, the pooling of one grower's fruit with another's —that is a matter that has been fully discussed, and I wiff therefore not say very much more about it. But there are circumstances where pooling is necessary. Pooling under normal circumstances will not take place if it is against the wishes of the grower. It will only take place when the grower wishes his fruit to be pooled, or when it is absolutely impossible to deal with it otherwise. We have had experience of that kind of thing already, and it may again prove necessary that pooling should take place in the future in special instances. Therefore, the power to pool should be left to the Beiard. As I have said before, no Boarel is likely to be much in advance of the public opinion ruling among growers in as far as any dogmatic action is concerned. lam quite satisfied in my own mind that that will be the case. Then there is the question of the regulation and the protection of markets. What happened, in South. America has cropped up in the evidence. Well, what happened in South America has a great bearing on this Export Control Board, and has had a great bearing on the bringing into existence of this Bill. Years ago, when fruit was being shipped by Messrs. Buxton and Co. to South America, it was shipped on an f.o.b. contract. None of" the merchants at that time, to my knowledge, ever bought fruit on their own account and speculated in it and shipped it: they always acted as agents for overseas buyers. That applied prior to the war, and it was a most satisfactory method of trading, and is still recognized as such ; and, in my opinion, any Board sot up will do its best to encourage f.o.b. sales. The trade with South America in those days was supposed to be satisfactory, but we can tell a different story from our official correspondence — that is, it was very unsatisfactory, and would not have continued unless some improve- *

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ments were effected. However, the method of trading was satisfactory—viz., the f.o.b. stylo of trading —and although we had to discontinue our exporting to that place, the federation and others endeavoured to get into touch with those people in South America who would buy our fruit on the old plan, but those who were formerly engaged in the. business, after several years had disappeared out of business, and no one knew very much about our fruit, and they wore somewhat sceptical in the matter of dealing with New Zealand fruit. I may say that in the first place we: would not have got a start had it not been for a New-Zealander who was resident in South America, because the merchants there would not deal with us on an f.o.b. basis or otherwise. At any rate, attempts were made to re-establish the business on an f.o.b. basis after the. war, but they failed. In tho year 1922 a small shipment eif about fifteen hundred oases was sent by Messrs. Red path and Co., anel the fruit was sold at a satisfactory price. The federation then realized that the: possibility of dealing f.o.b. - was very remote, and, seeing that the consignment trade had been started, considered that it hail better get into it, and it made arrangements with a firm to handle the fruit em a consignment basis ; but a gentleman who had been in business left New Zealand anel spent some time in South America, anel got into touch with the various merchants with a view to establishing a trade in fruit, and subsequently returned with an f.o.b. order of something like seven thousand oases. Now, everybody all along tho line condemned consignment sales up to this time, but to forward on consignment seemed to be tho only thing to do, and when this f.o.b. sale came forward it was thought that we might get our f.o.b. trade re-established. Acting on this assumption, the, fruitgrowers' federation cancelled arrangements with the agent established in South America for the purpose of handling consignment fruit, and it is assumed that this agent, being opposed to trade other than through channels controlleel by himself, told them in South America that fruit on consignment was being shipped. Another man here—Mr. Tate —had got an order for forty thousanel oases at f.o.b. The agent that was to have acted for the federation in South America decided, when he realized that he would handle no further fruit for the: federation, to get into touch with others to ship fruit there on consignment, and was supposed to have: had a promise of twenty thousand cases. I speak now rather from an imaginary point of vie;w ; but, as they know one another's business in South America more than in any other country I know of, the assumption is reasonable. The agent having heard of these largo f.o.b. contracts, and being opposed tei them because they were against his business, warned the firms concerned against entering into such contracts, owing to the fact that considerable quantities of fruit were coming on to that market. The firm that has placed the largest order immediately sent a cable, saying that it was stateel in South America that large quantities of consignment fruit were coming forward from New Zealand, and asked for this to be either confirmed or denied. Mr. Tate and others assooiated with him made inquiries of the federation anel elsewhere, but e:enihl fine! nei instance, where consignment fruit was going forward. It was all on paper, and no one:, excepting the prime movers, knew anything about it, and consequently lie (Mr. Tate) sent a oable denying what had been reported to them in South America. The next thing the agent would do, in all probability, would be to go along to the importing firm and say, " What elo you think of the position ? They " (referring to the New Zealand shippers) " deny it, and here it is on paper. Can you place any confidence: in them ? " lit any case, the firm concerned immediately cabled back to say that forty thousand f.o.b. deal was eiff. The other fellow ordered only seven thousand cases f.0.b., but he also failed to complete: the deal em account of the consignment fruit supposed to be coming forward. Ido not think anything like that twenty thousand cases went forwarel. through the source indicated, but the paper deal was sufficient to break up the f.o.b. trade. The growers themselves then decided to send a representative with fruit to South America, and for him to get into touch with certain firms there. Mr. Tate was selected — seeing that he was already in touch with what appeared to be a pretty big firm—to go forward with tho fruit and keep in touch with that firm so that he could keep off the consignment market a little longer if possible, while making a further attempt to establish the f.o.b. system of trading. Mr. Tate went forward, and they evidently froze him out, because he had a large: quantity of fruit consigned to him, and, not knowing the conditions and circumstances there, had a very elifficult task. The, fruitgrowers' federation die! not take the matter up at all until it was fully established by growers, and then only to assist in getting the guarantee and attend to the details of shipping. What brought about this unsatisfactory position was the fact that all and sundry were, trying to negotiate ; but if the negotiations had been carried out under one head I am sure, that we would have been able to ship fruit to South America on the f.o.b. system, but it was not so. Under the Control Board it would be different. The following year the best that was offered was a consignment of fifty thousand cases at c.i.f., and it was accepted. It was not a great success, because it suffered in exactly the same manner as many previous consignments sent to South America—that is to say, it went off in condition owing to the system of carriage. The way in which the fruit was consigned cannot be blamed for that, beeause it did not matter whether it was sent on consignment, or sold f.0.b., or in any other way, it would have been the same class of fruit, and the same system of carriage would have applied, and it is reasonable to suggest that it would have deteriorated in exactly the same way no matter how it was consigned. A representative went across to America to watch those sales, and as a result of his investigations much information is now available, and certain offers have been made for this year's business ; but they are all based on the same principle —that is, sole agency in South America. One buyer goes so far as to ask in his contract to be guaranteed against Australian competition also. This, of course, is an impossibility, because we have no control over the Australian trade. Information that we have received from time to time goes to show that it is only possible to deal through one firm in South America, otherwise you will have exactly the same thing happening as in the previous year —namely, two or three different agents completing with one another, to the detriment of our trade. Now, one witness in giving evidence referred to Honolulu. Well, that is a market that is not exactly like South America, because we have: more reliable people: to deal with there than is the case

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in South America ; but it has been stated that you can overdo the market. I ask, how can you prevent a limited market being overdone: unless there is some: control over the quantities that are shipped ? The witness referred tei stated that he was the only shipper tei Honolulu last year, and that ho broke the market on himself by shipping a small, quantity like 225 cases too many. If a shipper in those circumstance's cannot regulate supplies, how can it possibly be done when all and sundry are; shipping under no sort of control ? Now, f.o.b. sales are all right, but even so, you must land your fruit on the market in a satisfactory condition if you wish to retain your trade. If we: want, to deal with South America we want to establish a permanent market, and we cannot expect to consign fruit f.0.b., or in any other way, unless wo can get the fruit to arrive there in good condition. It will be apparent, therefore, that it does not matter whether it is c.i.f. sale or any other sale—the grower must be honest enough, in building up his market, to make good losses due: to the quality of the fruit he consigns. It is the responsibility of the grower to get his fruit on to the market in good order, and he must do this before; lie can carry on. I may say that it is easy enough to get the fruit on to the Honolulu market in gooel condition, but it is also very easy to over-crowd that market; and the only way to protect this market is by a proper system of controlling the; quantity exported, anel the Board must have control over the quantities forwarded to any such market if it wishes that market to return to the grower a margin of profit. Now, the question of the Government guarantee: eif lei. per pound has been referred to ; and before proceeding any further 1 weiulel like to say that we have made considerable: progress in New Zealand in connection with the, preparation and the export eif eiur fruit. As a matter of fact, wo claim to be well ahead of Australia, and I think both Australia and Tasmania realize: this fact. Heiwever, we woulel not have been in the position we are in to-day hael it not been for compulsion, That compulsion is provided by the guarantee ; but it is a limited compulsion, consequently it cannot be expected to take: the place eif this Bill. Neither- can it be expected that the guarantee: will take the place eif the Bill in that respect anel will continue for all time ; but we are, able, under that, guarantee', tei make concessions, and those concessions have, been for the: benefit of the growers. Certain criticism has be:eu made with respect to the standardization of fruit, but I can assure you gentlemen that if a vote were taken among the growers at the present time with respect to the question of standardization; there would be an overwhelming majority against any alteration in that respect. 1 have here an article; which goevs to show the standing of our fruit on the English market, and it bears out what I am saying. The; cutting to which I refer reaels : " Fruit-eating a Necessity.™-Only certain way to stay Cancer Plague.—London, 18th September,—ln tin; Daily Telegraph Sir Arbuthnot Lane, the famous surgeon, states that fruit-eating is a necessity, not a luxury. ' It is,' he: eicclares, ' the only certain way of staying the rapidly increasing plague: of cancer and innumerable; other diseases from which fruit-eating natives are: free.' A leading fruit-importer, commenting on the, above, says : ' The; tendency towarels more fruit-eating is universal. The banana is the most popular. The: apple; continues to hold its own, and if our Dominion friends only discard antiquated methods of grading and packing in order to send fruit which will open up in good condition, there is no reason why a big apple trade; should not be: developed within the Empire. At present New Zealand alone seems to have; grasped the importance: of grading and packing to meet the, requirements hero, while some of her' neighbours appear incapable' eif appreciating the most rudimentary requirements.' ' That goes to show that we aro sending Home; a better article than some; of tho other dominions, and it also shows that our fruit is appreciated so far as the Old Ceiuntry market is concerned. As a matter of fact, the representative: of the federation in London states that while this year our fruit is not quite equal to the Western Australian fruit, the the: name made previously has resulted in its seiling at approximately Is. a case: higher than Western Australian fruit. The only either matter I woulel like: to refer to is in connection with the guarantee. I may say that the guarantee has assisteel very materially in the building-up of our export trade. It has been going on now for some time, and it is only reasonable to assume that it will in the future be removed. Now, in view of the reasonable; possibilities that the guarantee: will be discontinued at some future: time, it is necessary that we should have some organization that will be able to take up the export of fruit, and take the place of the guarantee. The: guarantee has not only returned to the grower a price that is equal to about Bs. a case on the Wellington market, but it has also been highly advantageous in the financing of our shipments. It is true that you can get an aelvance from overseas agents that will enable shipments to take place, but that advance is not made until the fruit is on boarel the boat. That me;ans that the grower has the greatest difficulty in arranging for his cases. He can get no money to meet that situation. But tho federation has arranged with the Bank of New Zealand to make financial arrangements on the security of the guarantee, sei that the: federation can enter into contrae;ts and provieie the grower- with his cases and all necessary material to enable him to export his product. I think that is all I have, to say.

Thursday, 25th September, 1924. T. C. Brash further examined. (No. 37.) The Acting-Chairman : We: will now continue your examination, Mr. Brash. 1. Mr. Langstone] Do you think, Mr. Brash, that any injustice: will be; done to the: growers of fruit with regard to the mortgaging eif their apples when there are no concerns from whom they can obtain aelvances ?—No ; I think it will be rather the' reverse, owing to the Board being able to handle the, fruit as one complete whole. They might be able; to make better arrangements with the growers. Certainly, to my mind, there will not be any disadvantage in that connection. 2. And in the event of any financing being done on that basis those people who have fruit, in store will be able to draw —according to the amount of stock they have—from the money that the Boarel has secured under that arrangement ?— Exactly : that would be the position.

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3. Now, with regard to the local control, and the setting-up of the Board : do you think it is wise: that Marlborough should be included in the North Island ? —lt is a little difficult to answer that. It has taken a gooel deal of working out to arrive at the basis whereby the representation could be; made. 1 would say that that matter could bo wed discussed between Marlborough anel the other districts, as to which would bo tho better arrangement. It is one of those matters that might be left optional to some extent, subject to some arrangement. 4. Do you think that a better market and improved marketing conditions could be arranged in New Zealand through the establishment of Local Control Boards ?—Yes, I do. I consider that if there: were in tho provinces some Boarels that had power to deal with this matter the tendency would be; always towards betterment: it would give them, an opportunity of bringing about such reforms as they think advisable. In the: meantime there: is no body in authority that can bring about any such improvements —except, of course, the Government itself, and the Government can only elo so to a certain extent. 5. Now, in the: account sales tabled by Mr. Kelling yesterday there; are local provincial control charges, and there are also brokerage: charges : are; not those brokerage: charges separate from the local-control charges—are not those charges the charges of auctioneers or people who sell again ? — You are referring, I think, to the voluntary control in Neison ? 6. Yes ? —I take it that that is the position. I have not been dealing with that matter myself, butT take it there have been some extra brokerage charges in addition to the charges of the: voluntary Boarel. 7. Mr. Corrigan] You have had a little experience in farming, Mr. Brash ?—Yes ; I was brought up on a farm. 8. And you have also hael a, little: experience in fruitgrowing?- 1 have: had an orchard for ten y°ars9. Well, what is your experience in regard tei fruit-fanners : are they any different from any other farmers ?—They are exactly the: same, as the: primary producers generally. They are just the same type of man, excepting in this respect, Mr. Corrigan : a number of us who have gone in for orcharding are: not living em our orchards. 10. You will retire there ? —Yes, some clay, perhaps ; but it looks as though we, will have; to go on livin»' in the' way we are in the meantime sei as tei keep our oreiiarels. 1 do not think that sort of thing is so noticeable; in any other class of farming. Dairy-farming, for instance, cannot be taken up so readily in that way. 11. Then you think that the fruit-farmers have tho same average intelligence as any other class of farmers ? —Oh, yes. 12. It has been insinuated that it is only the men that are not successful fruitgrowers that want this ?—Weil, e:ven then, I take: it, there would be a majority for it. Only one eir two witnesses have given evidence before this Committee that they are making their orchards pay. The great majority even of those in opposition to the: Bill, have said that they have never- had a penny out of their orchards. It is true that some eif the older-established men, who have been in the: business perhaps for thirty years, and. have built up a gooel private trade, have been making it pay : but the; great rank and file are not making their orchards pay. I elo not think there is any shadow of eleiubt upon that point. 13. Of oourse you realize that success in business hinges on the management: that applies to farming, or anything else. You would not say that all the fruit-farmers who are wanting this Bill, are bad farmers in that respect ?—No, not at all. 14. Now, in regard to Nelson and Marlborough : There have been a few witnesses who have objected to Marlborough not being thrown in with Nelson, and I do not think I have heard any witness from Marlborough or Nelson objecting to such an arrangement ?—Oh, no. Ido not think either the Marlborough or the Nelson growers themselves would object to such an arrangement. 15. It seoms to me that there would be more community of interest if Marlborough were put in with Nelson. Why was Marlborough not put in with Nelson ?—I think the idea was this, Mr. Corrigan : Nelson, of course, has the bulk of the export at the present time, and if you were to tack Marlborough on to it, and give the Marlborough representation to Nelson, you weiuld have the whole business more or less in Nelson's hands. If you put Marlborough in with Hawke's Bay and Wellington it allows them to have a representative on the Export Control Board, with a reasonable amount of export to back him up. That was the idea, I think. Of course, Nelson would have no objection, and I take it that Marlborough woulel have no objection to a rearrangement on that basis. 16. It seems to me tei be the better plan, and I cannot see why it was not put in the Bill in that way, because you are all after the one object ?—I think it was put in in that way more with the idea of wards. It was to give the ward at least some backing in the way of export, and to give it a right to a representative. It is just the same with Canterbury. Canterbury is included with Otago because the Canterbury people are not exporters. In actual practice Otago will elect the representative, because the only voters will be in Otago. The time will come, no doubt, when Canterbury will do some; exporting, but during the intervening period Otago will be growing, and that is why Canterbury in the meantime has been included with Otago. It allows any grower in Canterbury, who is beginning to export, to have a chance of voting at some future election. 17. I understand you attended meetings right throughout the South Islanel in connection with this Bill : is that correct ? —No. I was present at a meeting in Christchurch, but that was only a meeting of the provincial growers. I believe it has been stated in evidence here that there was a public meeting, but I made no statement at a public meeting. It was only the meeting of the provincial growers, where all the local associations were represented. I attended that mooting with Mr. Campbell, on my way south to the dairy conference. And at that needing they passed a resolution

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unanimously in favour of export control, and. by a majority a reseilution in favour of establishing machinery for local control. It is evident that Canterbury will neit carry local control in the meantime, but that, resolution was carried in favour of the setting-up of the, Bill. 18. At, that time they had a synopsis eif the Bill ? —Yes. It was published in the Press, of course, as well. The synopsis was available at that meeting. 19 Do you consider the opposition to the Bill from Otago is as great as has been indicated by the Otagei witnesses ?- 1 hardly think so. 20. Why do not you think so ?—Well, as president of the Fruitgrowers' association I weiuld like to say this : that at the meetings held there there was undoubtedly a number of growers in favour of control. But, as there has been some doubt raised on that question, we have: wired to those districts, " Please wire collect copy of resolution passed at Mr. Allan's meeting regarding control." Now, Mr. Davidson wires that the Central Otago Fruitgrowers' Association passed the following resolution : " That this association supports Control Bill with condition that no Dominion-wide pool is undertaken, and that the maximum levy under the Bill will be 3d. per case." That resolution was passed afterMr. Allan had spoken. Then we have had this from Mr. McDonald, the secretary of the Taieri Fruitgrowers' Association : " That this association will suppeirt the Bill with the: following additions : (1) That there will be: no pooling with other provinces ; (2) that tho maximum levy be stated ; (3) that a vote of shippers will be taken as to whether the Bill will be put into force the same as the Dairy Control Bill; (4) that clause 3in Part 111, dealing with the abolition of the orchard-tax when export levy exceeds same, be deleted." Then we have this from Mr. Moeielio, of the Upper Clutha Fruitgrowers' Association : " Reseilution carried support Control Bill, proviso no pooling." Then, in a letter I had from Mr. Turner, the secretary eif the Otago Fruitgrowers' Council, on the 4th August, he says : "I dei not know eif any serious objection to local-market control in Otagei, as it gives provinces a free hand to come in or stay out." Then again, on the 11th August, he says : " The final position here in regard to local-market control seems to be that, five: out of the eight Otagei associations would not oppose that section of the Bill." Then, I have a letter hero from Mr. J. Bennett, a director of the Otago co-operative association. It is dated the: 12th September, and he says :" At Cromwell a Mr. Poarce was taking round a petition asking growers to pray that the Bill might be: delayed. I told Mr. Poarce that, seeing the Government had so much at stake, in export, in my opinion a Bill weiuld reasonably gei through. Stick to your guns and you will win." Those expressions of opinion are; from Otago, and from men wed known in the industry. So I think lam safe in saying that I dei not consider the opposition from Otago is so great as it is made out tei be. 21. Can you tell me what, the fruit-cases cost ? —ln round figures, fruit-case:s landed in Nelson cost from 11-J-d. to Is. Thoy are considerably che:apor where the growers are: in touch by rail with the sawmillers : I. believe, under those circumstances they are getting them somewhere in the neighbourhood of 9d. per case. But shipping cases is fairly expensive. The whole, of the Nelson case's are: shipped to Nelson- -that is to say, the timber is shipped tei Nelson, and they are also shipped readymade. This year the federation is importing something like: 100,000 cases from Canada. 22. There are other requisites in conne:ction with the fruit industry, in the way of paper packing, and weieid-pulp, &c. : elo you think a Control Boarel would be able to make any saving to the grower in those requisites by being able to get them in bulk ?— I do not think the Board would have peiwer to become a trading organization ; but weiuld have peiwer to arrange shipping freights even on requisites, and perhaps it might do some good in that connection. 23. I have just one more question. Can you tell me what is the usual number of tree's that is planted per acre ? —Well, I think the quantity of trees to the; acre is coming down. Some of us have 160, but I take it if you have 130 it woulel be a fair average: to-day. 24. The, Acting-Ghmrman] In connection with representation, there are: five: members elected —one from the Provincial Districts eif Auckland and Taranaki, one from the Provincial Districts of Hawke's Bay, Wellington, anel Marlborough, two from the Provincial District, of Nelson, and, one from the: Provincial Districts eif Otago and Canterbury ? —That is in connection with export control ? 25. Yes. Do you consider it is necessary to have the two from Nelson ? —Yes. As a matter of fact, although the growers in Nelson are not taking any exception to having only two representative's, they are not nearly adequately represented in proportion to their export by having only two representatives. But they are prepared to leave the, power in the hands of the Board, with the: majority against them at the present time. I think the time will come when the Bill might be finally adjusted, as the export grows in the other provinces. The fruit-export business is only in its infancy, and you may find Hawke's Bay some day, or Canterbury, grow up equal to Nelson, and then the whole thing ceiulel be rearranged. At the: present time Nelson exports 190,000 out of 240,000 cases. 26. In the Bill it does not altogether follow the interests of the growers in connection with the vote : it says that each elector is entitled to one vote only, whether he is a man with 60 acres eif orchard or a man with only 3 acres ? —1 think that is based on the vote in connection with the Dairy Boarel. In connection with that Board a man with three hundred cows has only one vote, and a man with only one COW has one vote also. The idea is that one. man.shall have one vote. I think myself that the man with 60 acres should have- more votes. 27. You state that as the Nelson growers are the biggest exporters they are given the biggest representation on the: Boarel ? —Yes. 28. But when it ceimes tei the individual elector that is not taken into account. It is taken into account in connection with representation, but not in connection with the: elector ? —That is quite right. But we have a precedent for that in connection with other Boards. The province with the; greater output has been given the greater representation. My personal sympathies are with the man who has the big quantity. I feel that there is a certain amount of right in his favour ; and yet the feeling throughout the country is that a man counts more than his property ; and that is the basis that has been taken in connection with this election.

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29. In connection with tho fruit industry is there not room for more individual effort than in any other branch, of farming ? For instance, if you have an orchard you can get out and use your energies in the marketing of your fruit more: than you can do in dairying or sheep-raising ?—Yes, it is much easier in that respect for the fruitgrower ; but, if each grower attempted to put his own fruit on the market, either by indirect trade or by selling from house to house, we should then be in a very much worse muddle; than we are in to-day. Because of the fact that the great majority do not do that sort of thing, it enables those who elo to make money out eif it. Of course, we must give; them credit for it. They are after making a living at it, and Ido not think that any Board that is set Up will ever interfere with that sort of private trading. 30. The' evidence of some' eif the' Otago witnesses was to the' effect that overseas control would prevent them carrying on therr own arrangements themselves in connection with the. Homo market ? —Well, so far as Mr. Reynolds's arrangements are concerned, he has given an entirely free hand to Mr. Attwood, the; federation representative, to place his fruit where he; like's. If you ever want proof of the advantage of having fruit placed in the: hands of one man you have it there. He has a large quantity of fruit, and he sale! to Mr. Attwood, " I will send, the fruit to you," and Mr. Attwood has dealt with it. Of course, I have not seen the results, but .1 understand they have been reasonably satisfactory. And that is really along the lines that the: Control Board will work. They will have a representative in Lonelon to see that the fruit goes where it is most needed. There' is a tendency to send too much fruit into one; broker's hands, or the: wrong kind of fruit. 31. Do you think there will be: more chance of a successful controlling arrangement with the overseas than with tho local control ? —Well, it is an easier problem. There: is a certain measure of control now. The foundation has almost been laid for carrying it on. 1 admit quite frankly that it is an easier problem than the loe:al control, but the local position is very bad, and undoubtedly something is required. 32. You admit that there is a good eleal eif difficulty, as is contended by the opposition to the Bill ? Oh, I quite admit that they are; giving their views conscientiously, anel that there are difficulties -—I admit that. J. A. Campbell further examined. (No. 38.) 1. The Acting-Chairman] We: will now proceed with your cross-examination, Mr. Campbell. I understand that you finished your main statement, yesterday, eliel you not ?—Y T es. 2. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy] Have: you watched the: working of the Nelson voluntary control scheme on the Wellington markets ? —Yes, we have watched it very closely both in Wellington and Nelson. 3. Are you aware of any strong points in connection with the scheme ? —One of the strong points in connection with the. scheme is the question of standardization. In the past a case; of fruit was merely a case of fruit, and the public, or the commercial buyer, ordering fruit were at a great disadvantage in so far as there was no assurance as to what fruit was being forwarded. As a "consequence eif standardization be ing brought into operation in Nelson buyers in Wellington and elsewhere have: a very good idea as to what class of fruit, they are going to get so far as appearance and freedom from blemish are concerned. Of course, deterioration is outside of that, because that happens after the: fruit has been graded. Another strong point is that an attempt is maele to regulate the market price by altering the auction system to control system. 1 would just like to mention that not having control of the whole of the fruit creates difficulties in not being able to regulate the market, and it does not guarantee the business satisfactorily with respect to fixed prices. Another point that I woulel like to mentiein that has manifested itself is in regard to the method of book-keeping ; but that is a remediable matter. I may say that book-keeping has proved to be a possibility in other business concerns, and it should prove to be a possibility in that business if carried out in a proper manner. 1. Do you think the: powers of the voluntary Control Board are sufficient?- —I consider that they could be very much improved. I will give you an illustration as to what, happened with respect to one or two varieties on the Weilington market. Some of the: orchardists, who had been working through the Control Board with respect to the whole of their fruit, knew that the Board had experienced difficulty in the past, and, anticipating difficulties from, past experience in quoting Worcester Poarmain apples they endeavoured to do what one, orchardist, did. That orchardist controlled the whole of the fruit of New Zealand by putting the Cox's apple on the market. I may say that the Cox's apple sells on its name, because it is a good dessert apple, and when it comes on to the market all other varieties of apples slump right away. In these circumstances one orchardist controlled the whole of the fruit of New Zealand. Very often the Cox's apple goes on to the market in a very immature state, but on account of its name there is no difficulty in getting a good price for it. Befeire the uncontrolled Cox's apple came on to the market the Worcester Pearmain apple was selling at 7s. 6d. per case, but as soon as the Cox's apple came on to the market the sum realized was 14s. 6d. per case, and, as I say, the other varieties slumped. The better price received by the grower who diel not put his fruit through the Control Board has been used as an argument against the Nelson Control Board, but I, say it is not a fair criterion. 5. Can you give any reason why the account sales in reference to losses do not refiVct credit on the control scheme ?—I have not examined the account sales ; but there is possibly this reason : that in elealing with fruit there are always bound to be kisses on account of its perishable nature. Losses occur under the control scheme of Nelson's, and they have occurred in the, past in connection with individual sales of fruit. The trouble has been that the Control Board has not been able to handle the market advantageously owing to tho uncontrolled fruit going on to the market, and consequently

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it has not been able to anticipate the market, and therefore there is a surplus on the market at times> and that in combination with tho fact that in packing for export the; grower very often hael to pay little attention tei his discards, because they were not fit for export, and they were going on to the local market in an overmatured state, anel the Control Board had to handle that ovennatureel fruit very often. 6. Can you give any instance where in the past the Control Board has brought about any particular reforms ? —There have been several questions put before the fruitgrowers that could have been dealt with more satisfactorily by the Control Boarel having the final authority, and one particular case is with respect to charging for fruit-cases. This matter has be;e:n before the growers, anel they have been endeavouring to bring it about for quite a long while. As a matter of fact, some growers argue that there is no advantage in it, and that the buyer would give them much less for their fruit —namely, 9d. less. The question was pushed both in Auckland and in the: South Island. The whole: matter- was gone into with the retailers and some of the brokers, and a considerable fight took place. In Auckland the association, which consisted of a large: number of Chinamen, broke the whole matter up. If the brokers had stood by the growers it would have been done. I may say that, quite a number of the brokers both in the North Islanel and the South Island were quite willing to make the charge and stand by it, but others woulel not agree. Had there, been a proper authority putting the whole of the fruit through the brokers it would have charged for the case, anel would have' brought about the desired improvement ; but, having no control over the marketing eif fruit, there was no possibility of breaking up the stand that, was.made. 7. In the; event of one province coming in under local control woulel it be detrimental to other provinces ? —No, Ido not see: how it could be:. I think in any case it woulel be an advantage: if all the provinces were to come under the local control, and it would not be disadvantageous to them, so far as I can see for one province only tei adopt it. In fact, it would be an advantage in the matter of marketing the fruit. Yesterday I spoke with respect tei the system eif selling, anel 1 mentioned how the growers were competing one with another unnecessarily. Under a proper system of control there would be a better system of controlling the produce from districts than would be the case under the individual system. 8. Mr. Langstone] Could any improvement be made in the marketing of New Zealand fruit in Englanel ? —I think the system could be considerably improved not only on the English market but on other markets. Of course, different places like certain kinds of apples—for instance, cookingapples will sell more readily in the eastern than in the western portion of London, The West End trade requires a very high-class apple, whereas the East End trade requires the cooking class of apple. So far as the individual brokers are concerned, they have a big demand, for different classes of apples. Some brokers will sell the russet class of apple because there is a large demand, for that class. Cox's Orange: will sell by Messrs. George Munro (Limited) probably more readily. Of course, they will sell any apple that is sent to them. The growers in. selecting their broker will send all their apples tei a particular broker, but they may be sending the major portion of their varieties to the wrong broker, whereas a little adjustment woulel be greatly to the: advantage: of the: shippers at this end. That is information that it is necessary to acquire ; and then you have to have —I do not, say " authority " —some: sort of control over the shipment to bring about an improvement. 9. It would not be very difficult to find out from the growers what the trade is so that you could regulate the supply ? —Yes, it, would be a simple thing to do. There is another point, that has to be taken into consideration, and that is that the size of apples plays a big part. In the City of Glasgow they like a fairly large apple, and in the main large apples are required ; but so far as Englanel is concerned, the people there like, the small class of apple. Supposing large apples were sent to London and small apples were sent to Glasgow, you are doing just the reverse of what you should do. 10. Because of the perishable nature of the fruit is it necessary to have better methods of dealing with it: we have been informed that it is easy to handle butter and meat, because they keep for a very long time, but because fruit is of a perishable nature it needs special handling ? —I may say that owing to its perishable nature, it requires special handling as well as special attention. The question has been raised as to whether the individual could deal with it better than any management could do it, and I say that the work of the individual is in connection with the production of the fruit, packing it according to what is recognized to be the best methods of packing, and leaving the marketing of it alone, because they cannot be regarded as being successful in connection with that matter. The marketing of the fruit can be done very much better by a marketing association. I may say that the large co-operative societies of America were brought into existence for the purpose: of marketing, and they have exactly the same class of fruit to handle and it is of the same perishable nature as ours. The perishable nature of fruit is one of the great difficulties that we are up against, and if it, were not for that our industry would be more; effectively run. 11. Is there any possibility of the Board being so cumbersome that it will rather interfere: than facilitate the marketing of fruit ? There seems to be a fear in the minds of a lot of people that the Board will be eumbcrsomo, and, notwithstanding what has been said, will retard the marketing of fruit, to the detriment of the growers ?—That depends on the provinces taking up local control. 1 would not advise any province to go in for local control in its entirety. As a matter of fact, it, applied in Nelson last year, and I think they have gained some experience in the work; but there are many things that a Control Board can do to the advantage of tho growers without taking over tho whole of the fruit. f2. Has any restriction been placed on proprietary firms wishing to export fruit on account of growers ? —No, there has been no restriction placed on proprietary concerns, and they could export fruit from New Zealand at any time. At the commencement of the guarantee there was a elause to the effect that the guarantee applied to fruit grown and shipped on behalf of bona fide fruitgrowers

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through the New Zealand Fruitgrowers' Federation. To that was added something to this effect: " other channels approved of by the Minister of Agriculture." At no time were proprietary concerns debarred from handling fruit. Even when that clause did exist in connection with the guarantee it was waived on two occasions in so far as proprietary concerns were concerned. 13. Was there not a restriction in so far as South America was concerned ? —Only last year there was a restriction on the export of fruit. This did not apply only to proprietary concerns, but to co-operative concerns as well, other than by permit by the Minister of Agriculture. 14. There are two important features in this Bill- one is in connection with marketing, and the other is in connection with finance : do you think the finance from sales will be promptly effected to the producers, or will delay take place ? We: were, informed that erne of tho disadvantages against, the Nelson Provincial Voluntary Control Board was the delay that occurred in paying out to tho producers : dei you think that can be obviated if this Bill, becomes law ?—I am satisfied that it can be obviated. It is possible that a Control Board can be set up under this Bill, and not having the incompetent book-keeping that the Nelson Control Board had last year—there is no reason why a Control Boarel, with proper book-keeping done by experienced accountants, should not run its concern eerually as well as any other business, and in this way there would be no delay in paying out to the fruitgrowers. 15. Do you think the Control Board would make as generous, or more generous, advances to the fruitgrowers exporting their fruit than is done at the present time ? —lt will make no more generous advances, in so far as amount is concerned, than is done at the present time, nor will it make any more generous advances with respect to making it available to the growers than exist now. The advances now are satisfactory, but the provision in the Bill regarding the marketing of fruit for export is just intended to transfer the authority that the, federation now possesses, so that it can carry on the arrangements that neiw exist with the: Bank of New Zealanel. Under the local-control scheme no advances worth counting can be made, but if the Control Board were set up advances would be made and could be made, because it is difficult for any financial organization to aelvance money to a man who has nothing to give in security. When a man wants an advance there are no apples. Even if a man did have apples the bank would have no control over his fruit, but the Control Board, would have, control of those apples, and consequently it could back a man's credit. 16. Has not standardization been a great improvement both from the growers' point of view and tho buyers' point of view ? —Yes, that is so. I may say that standardization has been one of the great improvements in connection with the fruit trade in America. Before standardization was introduced their greatest difficulty was to get rid of tho fruit, due to the fact that buyers had to come from east to the west to seo the fruit before it was purchased. They can now buy according to grade, which bears the State officer's certificate, and in consequence they are sure of the fruit being up to grade, with the result that they can buy with a greater amount of freedom. Of course, this country is not so large, nor is the industry sei big here as it is in America, but the same system can be utilized here, and I suggest, furthermore, that it is essential it should be done. 17. And that protects both the grower and the buyer ? —You create the necessary confidence. Take a retailer ; as things were in the past he had not correct information as to the class of fruit he was buying, and he always retained a margin to cover possible losses. He would see a sample of the fruit, and to all intents and purposes it appeared all right, but he, could not be sure, because there was no standardization. .He looks at a case of fruit and it appears to be all right, and on the sample considers it worth Bs. 6d. per case, but he would buy the lot for 7s. 6d. per case, because he does not know what is in the other cases. That is the trouble. 18. At the present time do the Nelson people have any difficulty in selling their fruit by the present method—that is, putting it up with the price marked ? —No. To my mind it is an excellent idea, but it was not, carried out in its entirety last year. The market was less confused, so far as prices were concerned, last year than ever before. This system provided a means whereby private individuals could get their fruit at exactly the same price as tho retailor with a minimum of difficulty, and had that been fully operated by the Control Board a very much wider field of consumption would have been brought about than existed before. 19. Do you know whether much'of that fruit was dealt with in that way and regraded down to a lower grade ? —All the regrading took place in Nelson, and the Department assisted, the work in this way : we assisted them in adopting a proper standard, a workable, standard, that was required so far as the fruit was concerned, and Inspectors were made available to inspect the fruit after packing, but before sale, and if it did not comply with the required stanelard —if it was rejected—the man had to remove or repack it. The guarantee between the grower anel the buyer was the Government officer, anel it is the only thing that is going to make standardization worth while. Standardization must be standardization. Well, it was a new thing to establish standardization on a sound footing, and to make it worth while. That is what took place over there. The Inspector degraded any fruit that was not up to standard, and put it in the lower grade. At this end, however, a certain amount of degrading had to take place owing to deterioration due to various reasons, but. mainly from the fruit being held by the grower longer than, he should have held it. 20. Had any regrading to take place because the fruit remained longer than it should in the auction-rooms here ? —Oh, yes, that has taken place. The Control Board, not having control eif the whole of the fruit, could not reasonably regulate, the quantity required. They may, for instance, send forward a hundred, and fifty cases, but there may be two or throe: lots of uncontrolled fruit on the market, and when there is a quantity of fruit like that the auctioneer insists upon going on, and the majority of buyers will buy the cheaper fruit. The high-class business man will buy the standardized fruit, but quite a large number of people will buy the uncontrolled fruit. The small

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shopkeepers will buy that fruit. They dress their windows with first-class fruit at what they consider reasonable prices—at 4d., 6d., and Bd. per pound, but a lot of the fruit sold to the: public is not what it is represented to be by the fruit in the window. They frequently get the fruit for the public from under their counters, and that is the fruit they buy at. the lower rate. It, is such difficulties as those encountered by the Nelson Control Board that have given rise to this Bill. 21. Do you think that, with a proper organization and more control a lot of this regrading that is going on now could be obviated altogether ? —Yes, it coulel be almost eliminated. I say " almost," because I have never heard of any system whereby deterioration in fruit could be entirely eliminated, but quite a good deal of the deterioration that has caused trouble on the Weilington market could be obviated under a, proper system of control. 22. Do you think there weiulel be any danger of a monopoly growing up in connection with this Board, and inflating or arbitrarily fixing the prices of fruit against the interest of the general public ?- No ; I think that under a system of this kind the general public will get fruit at prices nearly 50 per cent. lower- than the present prices. 23. Mr. Corrigan] I woulel like to ask you a few questions, perhaps a little outside' the province of the Bill, but upon which I would like tei have information. What is your work ?—-Well, that is rather a hard question to answer. It is pretty we'll everything so far as the fruit industry is e:emcorned. In the Horticultural Division of the Department of Agriculture we have' a staff of horticultural officers in the different fruitgrowing districts, called Orchard Instructors, and the control of that staff is my work. And anything else that crops up in connection with the fruit industry eventually finds it way, directly or indirectly, to my offie'e' to ileal with. 24. Have vein hael any experience in fruitgrowing ? —Yes. 25. I will put it this way : Tf I were' starting an orchard, would you be the man I would come to to teach me my business ? —I think so, if I happened to be available. As si matter of fact I was an Instructor in the Waikato district and the Hawke's Bay District before coming to Weilington. 1 had to attend to the: whole of the: instruction in those districts. 26. You have a, first-hand knowledge of the conditions of growing fruit throughout the whole; of New Zealand ? —Yes. 27. Now, what do you consider is the fair average production of fruit per tree on, say, the poorer class of land in Nelson and Murchison ? —Of course, the production depends very much on the condition of the orchard. From some of the orchards there which are: fairly well looked after good crops are obtaineel. Ido not say they are bearing crops equal to what they get in Hawke's Bay and on other heavy soils, but they are bearing satisfactory crops. The:y are: bearing crops that should be enough, at any rate, to keep a man going on his own. 28. Is one hundred and thirty trees about, the right number to plant, per acre ? —Ye's. 29. What should each tree' have to produce, on an average, before it would be a payable proposition to the, producer ?—Under the present conditions, with a chaotic, market, you have to have' better production than woulel normally be the' ease. The production depends on the availability of the markets of the world. 30. We have had it from growers that 4. bushels per tree is a payable price to them ?—We will take it by the acre, because they vary. In the particular area that has been under discussion— namely, Nelson —the: trees have been planted a hundred and fifty to a, hundred and sixty to the acre. If that area has been credited with beiaring only 2 bushels per tree, you have to take into account the number of trees. 31. I am asking you this emestion : on the average of a hundred and fifty trees per acre, what should they produce ? —At a hundred and fifty trees per acre they should produce 2 bushels per tree to give; you a reasonable, return on tho orchard. 32. That is an average crop ? —The average crop is more: than that. That is only 300 bushels. 33. An acre ? —Yes, and an average crop is from 4 to 6 bushels per tree. 34. In Nelson ?—No. Take it as four hundred to six hundred cases per acre. Now, six hundred cases per acre is a rattling geieiel crop, and that is held to be very good average crops. In the best fruitgrowing lands of America they get from a thousand to twelve hundred case's per acre. There are parts in New Zealand where I have known trees to produce 20 busheis per tree, but not in the Nelson District. 35. You think then, that if a man started a. new place in Nelson and he got an average of 2 bushels per tree that it would pay him ? —On the present market it would not pay him. If he' exported his fruit he would be working on the close side, but woulel probably make a living, provided, of course, he landed his fruit in good condition on the Home market. 36. You think then that 2 bushels per tree is not, really a payable proposition taking one; year over another ? —I would not like to take it on«with only 2 bushels to the tree. 37. Could they not exceed 2 bushels per tree ?—Yes, provided there is sufficient prospects to continue: —that is, it you can stabilize your market. 38. From, your experience of the land over there is it possible to increase the production up to 3 bushels per tree ?—I should say so—that is, provided the orchards are decently situated. I may say that orchards have been planted over there in unfavourable positions, and they would never be a success, and they have never reached anything like reasonable, production. 39. I think a Mr. Kelling gave evidence yesterday, and I think he said that they had 21 acres ?— Yes. 40. And he told us that a Mr. Rowlings got six thousand cases of fruit, and he said that his costs came to £1.6 per acre, and the feillowing are his figures : Freight, cartage:, and wharfage, £20 ; wages £14 per acre ; manure, £5 per acre ; spray material, £6 per acre ; wrapping-paper, £3 per acre ; nails and benzine, £1 per acre ; cool-storage; charges, £10 per acre ; interest, rent, £10 per acre ; and the

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total comes to £79 ; are you aware: of that orchard ? —1 am not personally acquainted with it, but I know of it by repute. 41. You cannot tell the: Committee as to whether- or not his land is different to that at Motueka ? — Yes, his land is different. 42. Is it more suitable, for fruitgrowing ?—Yes, of a, certain class of fruit—that is, it will grow possibly a better crop of lower-grade fruit, although I would not say that definitely, because, as 1 say, I have not examined Mr. Rowlings's place. 43. I understood him to say that his average; was 4 bushels per tree —out of that there are 8 acres in pears ? —I would expect to get more than that in that particular locality. 44. And ho gives his gross returns as £119 per acre, and it, cost, £80 per acre to produce that, : elei you think that that is a fair return ?—I think his expenses aro very high, so far as lam able' tei juelge. 45. You said when giving your evidence, yesterday that it cost Bs. 6d. to bring a case eif fruit from Nelson to Wellington ?—No, from Motueka, to be correct. 46. Well, from Motueka then : you said it cost Bs. 6d. per case; ? —That is for a single case —Bs. 6d. to 9s. per case;. 47. Of course; that is for a single case, and 1 submit it is not a fair thing tei take that into consideration. What weiuld a consignment exist per' case ?—lt would cost very much less. 48. Take a. consignment of a hundred eases : what weiuld it cost per- case: ?—Probably from 9(1. tei Is, per case. Of course, when I gave you the price of Bs. 6d. per e:ase I was referring tei an individual case being sent over. 49. That Bs. 6d. would be, the price landed in your home ?—That is the carriage: to the; eitfice: in the Farmers' Institute Buildings. 50. What would be the freight on the: other consignment I referred tei ?— As a, matter of fact the freight exist is about 9d,, anel the; wharfage on that quantity would be round about, lei. or lid. As a. matter of fact it would come; to very little more: than Is., although it might corne to Is. 3d. 51. Of course; this Bill has really been brought forward, I suppose, as a. consequence of your representations to the head of your Department ?—I would not go so far as to say that. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : The Minister of Agriculture takes the responsibility for that. 52. Mr. Corrigan] At any rate, you think this Bill will assist the fruitgrowers out, of their present predicament provided it is passed into law ? —I want to say this : that no one: can guarantee that this is the solution of the difficulty, but wc arc aware, from our past experience that the practice in operation now is more; or loss a failure, and there: is a chance under this Bill to alter that state eif affairs, anel it is the only chance that the: industry has, apart from the survival of the fittest. 53. You realize this : that unless something is done to assist the fruitgrowers a great number' of them will have to go out of the industry ? —Yes, all those people who have the small production I have: mentioned will be: forced out of business without a eloubt unless something is done to assist them. 54. I take it that the Government is out to assist the fruitgrowers, and that is the: reason why this Bill was brought forward ? —Exactly. 55. Mr. Forbes] In connection with the overseas market, I take it that you consider it, is likely to be profitable —that is, a profitable market for the fruitgrowers in New Zealand ?—Yes, (lie prospects are good. We must get our fruit on to the English market in good condition. There are a number of difficulties that have to be overcome, up to the present time. 56. It is said that a good deal of deterioration takes place hero ? —Yes, there, is no eloubt about that, and very often that takes place at the orchard. For instance, in the handling of fruit in the orchard the stump of one apple may pierce another apple, and that apple will, affect another apple ; and if a consignment of apples are broken in the way I have described, and. if they are not put in the right atmospheric conditions, the rot will start in the: particular spot where they have been pierced ; but if they are put in the, right temperature, below 40°, the rot is checked, with, the result that you can carry that class of fruit for a long time if you can get it into the cool store without delay. I may say that we are trying very hard to bring about direct shipments, but there is great, difficulty in regard to that. We had an interview with the shipping company a few days ago, and we arc trying very hard to bring about an alteration. They are concerned more' with cheese than fruit, and they obje:ct to putting in alterations in the cheese-store in order to give us the facilities wo require for our fruit. If we cannot succeed in bringing about something satisfactory with the Harbour Board we will have; tei cool-store the fruit in Nelson, and ship it over to suit the overseas boats. If we can come to no better arrangement with the Harbour Board it is going tei be better than holding it for throe weeks under conditions similar to those of last year. 57. Tho fruit now comes out of the cool store, ? —No, except the fruit for export. We aim at keeping it in the cool store. 58. What is the period, for shipping overseas fruit from Nelson ? —lt commences round about the middle of February and continues right through to about May. 59. You aim at shipping it fresh from the orchard ?—lt is no good having the fruit waiting about if it can be avoided. 60. You have been shipping fruit for many years to the: English market, and the Government has been interested in the matter by way of the guarantee and other ways : what has been your experience with respect to the price of the fruit in other years—l understood you to say that the price seemed to be: high last year as compared with previous years ? —That is so. In 1920 there was a maximum price placed on the, fruit in the Old Country of 21s. per case. Of course, the shipping freights and the cost of materials were very high, but, as I say, our fruit brought a maximum price of 21s. per- case, which was satisfactory to the growers. The following year the position was not so good because our fruit had to stand on its own feet, as it were. The next year the market was bad, anel although the fruit arrived Home in reasonably good condition —there was room for improvement—the price, realized was not satisfactory. I submit that wo ought to be able: tei land fruit in Englanel in perfect condition.

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61. With respect to the; Tasmanian fruit, is Tasmania a big competitor on the English market sei far as fruit is concerned ?—Yes. Of course, Australia and Tasmania export larger quantities of fruit than we elo, and consequently the quantity of fruit that we export would not affect the: position very much. 62. What is their experience: over a number of yeiars ?—Not having first-hand knowledge about Tasmania, we have to go by what we he:ar, but wo are: aware that the growers in Tasmania are tied up with London brokers on account of their finance. Tho fruitgrowers in Tasmania are in a pretty bad way. 63. The:y have be:e:u shipping for a number of ye:ars, have they not ? —Yes. 64. How does their fruit arrive on tho market ?- Possibly much the: same as ours, as far as condition is concerned. One year —I think it was the year 1922—they had a disastrous experience, and practically shipment after shipment arriveel in a rotten condition. 65. The experience with the South American market was the last one you had ? —Yes, that is so. bT>. What was the condition of the: fruit when it arrived there ? —Our fruit arrive:ei there in bad condition, eluo almost entirely, if not entirely, to the conditions on the boat. I may say that practically the same class of fruit that was sent tei America was sent to England on two particular boats that carried fruit for each, and while: the fruit that was sent to South America by the boats referred to arrived in bad condition, the: fruit that was sent to England, notwithstanding that it took four weeks longer, arrived in good condition. 67. If you can land the: fruit on tei the: South American market in geiod order and condition it is a good market ? —Yes, with limitations, anel provided wo can land the: fruit in good order. I may say that on one occasion an officer of the Department went across there in order to watch the sales and gather all the information he coulel, and the information wc have is that there is a market there for sixty thousand or eighty thousand e;ases of fruit, provided, of course, it oan be landed in good order. As a matter of fact I feel that we: can land our fruit on the South American market in gooel oreler if shipped in ceieil storage. Canadian fruit come:s from British Columbia to Auckland in perfect condition and at a temperature of 40°. 68. Anel you say it arrives here in first-class order ? —Yes, that is sei. 69. Does it arrive: in as bruised a condition as the: fruit we export ? —No, I do not think it does. One: reason is that we have a different class of case from theirs. We have not introduced their style of case: here: owing to our timber not being sufficiently flexible. However, some 100,000 Canadian cases are being imported out to determine; the advantages of this class of case or otherwise:. Every possible: care has been, exorcised in bringing our export up to a very high standard, and very considerable progress has been made. 70. Aro you geiing to try them for export ?—Yes. We; weiuld not try them for the local market until such time as we ascertain whether- they are satisfactory for the eixport trade, and if they are satisfactory we will try them for the: local market. I may say that there is a good deal to be: done; in the matter of improving the handling of fruit by all and sundry. In Tasmania they went so far as to get an Act passed making it a penalty for anybody haneiling cases of fruit in a careless manner, anei that was brought about with a vie;w to improving the method of handling the fruit there. 7.1. I take it that your experience has been largely in connection with the marketing of the Nelson fruit ? —We come in contact with the: Wellington market more: than with other markets, due tei the fact that Wellington is close to headquarters, and consequently we understand more about the Wellington market than other markets. 72. You are aware, aro you not, that there is strong opposition from Canterbury and Otago against any interference with respect to the local market ? —Yes, I am. aware: that there is strong opposition from Canterbury, and from what I can understand they are taking a very exaggerated view of the position. What we, want Canterbury to do is not to block the Bill. So far as the export position is concerned, Canterbury is not affected. 73. I notice in connection with the objections from Canterbury with respect to the Bill that the voting is very unequal, and tho largo growers have the fear that they may be swamped up by the smaller growers ?—There is always that possibility, but I do not think it would apply, because I think the; smaller growers woulel average out equal for and against the: Bill, the same as with the larger growers. 74. You think that the smaller growers would have; more objection than the larger growers ? —1 do not think they woulel have more objection; but I beiicve they would oppose it more than tho moderate-size grower. 75. What I mean to say is this : would not the grower who would have the bigger chance: eif disposing of his fruit privately be more conoerned ? —The: man who disposes of his fruit privately will, in all probability, be a blessing to the Board rather than anything else; ; but the average small grower is the trouble on the open market, and he takes a fair amount of looking after. 76. In connection with standardization, why cannot you bring it, about for local control ? 1 quite: agree as to tho value: of standardized fruit, but how aro you going to bring it about for the local markets, where the orchards are: scattered everywhere ? —As a matter of fact, it is quite a simple: matter, because: standardization is a straight-out, proposition, aid the whole details are given in writing, and any intelligent man can see what is reepiired of him, We have expert packers employed, and they give demonstrations to show how it should be done. 77. How aro you going to eiheck false packing ? That, of course, is one of the greatest difficulties. There was an agitation at; one time or another for compulsory standardization throughout New Zealand, but I have been opposed tei that for the reason that we cannot enforce it. We have to have some control over standardization. At the present time; if you hael standardization

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all over- Ne:w Zealand it would be; very eliificult to enforce, but if you take section by section it becomes a different matter. 78. The Boarel woulel have to take over all the responsibility in connection with standardization, 1 take it ?—Yes. 79. And to see that the fruit was inspected ?—Exactly. It de:pends on the province as to how it is instituted, Nelson would be simple, and Otago very largely would be simple. When, I say " simple: "1 am speaking relativeily. As a matter of fact, none: of it would be too simple, but it is all possible. 80. Mr. Corrigan] Have: you any idea as to the methods of shipping apples from Hobart ? Do their apples go near the freezing machinery before they get into the: hold of the boat ?—ln assembling apples iu Hobart, whore they are brought from outside districts, river-barges and one thing and another are used. Tho apples are: assembled for shipment in big sheds on the wharf, and are: not put in cool storage —at least, they used not to be: : but there: has been a great deal of agitation anel a great fight between the Governments of Tasmania and of Victoria with the growers in connection, with precooling. All the loaelers of tho industry are in favour of precooling, but tho rank and file arc opposed to it, owing to tho additiemal cost. The costs are only relative. If it costs 6d. or 9el. to prcoool a case of fruit, and if by so doing you can got 2s. 6d. or 2s. extra for that fruit on, the market, it is money well spent; but it has been opposed very strenuously iu the various Australian States, and the matter is not, yet settled. 81. We could practically say that the fruit has never up tei the present been cooled by refrigerating machinery until it has been put into the Harbour Board's sheds or put aboard the boat? —No, 1 would not say that. In previous years certain cooling was done as the fruit was being assembled tei meet the boats, but a proper system was not introduced —some fruit was put in cool sheds and some held for a week eir sei before being sent across. There has been no proper system in Nelson. The practice has be:e:n to assemble the fruit at the: wharf, or wherever it is shipped, and the refrigeration has taken place after it has gone: abeiard. 82. Mr. McKee] I understood you to say, Mr. Campbell, that under this scheme of control the: public would get their fruit from, 50 to 100 per cent, cheaper than at present ? —I said I hoped that would be the case:. 83. Say 50 per cent. Can you tell me the retail price to-day for Stunners ?—The average: price is 6d. per pound. 84. So that if we had control those Stunners would be sold at 3d. ? —You are: taking the wrong end of the season. 85. Wo will take mid-season : what was the average: price mid-season for Jonathans or Cox's ? —The average price to tho grower weiuld be about 2d. per pound. 86. Retail in the shops ?—Somewhere about 6d. per pound. 87. Was not the price, 4ei. per pound in the soasein right throughout tho whole elistrict —in some cases less ? lam speaking of mid-season ? —Possibly they may have been available feir 4d. 88. Suppose; 4d. : does that mean that in future the: public will get, that fruit for 2d. ? —That would be 100 per cent. You reduced to 50 per cent, a while ago, 89. Fifty per cent, off 4d. wriuld be 2d. ? —Fifty per cent, on 2d. woulel be 3d. My remarks referred mainly to the margin between what the grower receives and what the consumer pays. Charles John Rbakes, Director of Agriculture, Wellington, examined. (No. 39.) Witness : Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, Mr. Campbell has covered the ground so very fully from a departmental point of view that I feel it is unnecessary I should attempt to go over the same ground again. I may say that I quite agree with his statements. What I, would like to say, however, is that eluring my period of administration of tho Department it has become, more and more impressed upon my minel that there is a very urgent necessity for a better organization,—a more systematic organization —in the fruitgrowing industry than exists at the present time, and that necessity is particularly impressed em one in connection with the marketing end, So far as the production end is concerned, the Department itself, through its staff, is able to give the growers a good deal of aelvioo and assistance and put them in the way of using the best methods for producing their crops. But the marketing end is a matter which necessarily must be dealt with by the growers themselves, and under present conditions Ido not consider that the marketing is being done to the best advantage. Naturally, if we are going to have a better system Of organization we must have some proper method of control, ami this Bill endeavours to provide such a method. One point which, as a departmental officer, I have had to give a great eieai of attention to is the extent tei which the Government has assisted the industry financially up to now. In one way anel another a good deal of money has been utilized for that purpose, and I hope it has done good ; but at the same time I have realised that with a better organization of the industry any financial assistance which the Government gives coulel be: utilised to better advantage so far as the individual fruitgrowers are concerned. Take, for instance, our guarantee on overseas shipments of fruit. At the present time we can exercise a certain amount of contreil through tho conditions on which the guarantee is paid : but these conditions deal principally with the grading and packing, and so on, of the fruit. We, naturally, cannot interfere with tho actual details of the method uneler which it is marketed. Therefore, an Export Control Boarel efficiently administered could be of very great assistance. As far as local control is concerned, I had the experience in my earlier eiays of running the Department of seeing some, very admirably conceived co-operative organizations gradually getting deeper and deeper into financial difficulties, and it was quite obvious

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that these attempts eliel not meet the requirements of the industry ; at any rate, they proved unsuccessful ; some carried on, but others went out altogether. The fruitgrowers' federation for quite a long time was open to a gooel deal of criticism. lam glad to say to-day it is running on very much beittcr lines. Here again the federation has no powers really. It is rather a trading concern, and as such, has been of great assistance: to growers in the overseas marketing of their fruit. So far as the local marketing of fruit is concerned, I am quite sure that with an efficient anel properly designed organization very great improvements ceiulel be: brought about, and those improvements weiulel naturally react to the benefit of the grower, and to the benefit of the, consumer also. There is another important point in connection with that: with bettor selling organization and with the lessening of costs between the grower and the; consumer, which l believe could be brought about, the lower retail price would greatly increase: the consumption of apples in New Zealand itself, and that would be of very great advantage to the greiwers and to the community as a whole. I have gone very carefully into the: wheile: question of how best to meet the requirements of the inelustry in the way of better organization, anel it seems to me that the provisions contained in this Bill would go a long way towards meeting requirements. I realise, as everybody must realise, that if the Bill became law a very great deal weiulel depend upon the personality of the individuals composing the: Export Board, or Leical Boards, as the case may be ; and one' feels that the growers themselves weiuld have that realization also, and would take care to put the right seirt eif men on their Boards. 1 might, mention also —1 am not sure; whether it has been brought out in the' evidence before —that at the fruitgrowers' conference which was held in June last—the Dominion conference of fruitgrowers—a synopsis of what was proposed to be put in this Bill was submitted to the conference and fully discussed, and I understand that, with the exception of the Otago delegates, who did not vote either way, it was unanimously approved. I understand the Otago delegates took exception—or rather, they wished a, provision to be made to prevent what was termed " Dominion pooling." They also wanted a limit to be put on the amount of the levy. This last was put in the Bill. I think 1 need not take up the; time eif the Committee further, seeing the whole question has been very fully geine; into by Mr. Capmbell from a departmental standpoint. 1. Mr. Hudson] You say the peisition in regard to the: inelustry generally is better neiw than it was ? —I said that the fruitgrowers' feelcration was running on better lines than previously. 2. Can you see any way of getting over the difficulty of private trading, by a clause: in the: Bill allowing men with business connections now to continue private trading ?—lt would be very difficult to word a clause to meet the position exactly as one woulel have it in one's mind. 3. You think that is a matter that would have, to be left absolutely in the hands eif the: Beiarel to use its own discrimination ? —Yes, I am afraid that weiulel have to be the: case. 4. Is there any way of providing for permits being allowed to certain individuals to continue their present business, if such business were seen to be neit against the interests eif the industry?— You would simply bo putting into the Bill a power which would already be in the hands of tho Board. The Beiarel. could exercise complete control or limited, control, and the Bill allows for that. 5. M.r. Forbes] Is one of the reasons why you welcome, this Bill because: it would take the industry out of the Department's hands : is that why the Department is backing it ?—I am not, wanting to shirk any responsibilities. 6. I mean financially. What did the Government do in connection with manures a while' ago ? —They provided about £6,000 by way of loan to assist growers in the Nelson Province to buy manures. 7. Have you been paid ? —Not yet. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : It was on tho deferred-payment system. 8. Mr. Forbes] Are they keeping up their payments —aro they able to ? —Some are. 9. From what we can gather from, the evidence you will have: to write off a considerable amount ? — We are always hopeful. 10. You want to place the industry in a stronger peisition than it is in at present in regarel to the Government and its assistance ? —I want to place the inelustry in a position to be more self-supporting in e;arrying out, its general business, and so that any assistance the Government gives can be utilized to even better advantage than at present. 11. You think the guarantee has been of considerable assistane:e tei them ? —Undoubtedly. 12. You think it will be continued ? —I hope it will not be necessary to continue it for a long time tei come. Hon. Mr. Nosworthy : That is a matter of policy. 13. Mr. Forbes] In connection with the reception of the Bill in Otago aid Canterbury, you mentioned it was agreed to —the synopsis was sent down anel there was no very strong oppeisition to it. It was tliscussed pretty freely, but the resolution supporting it was carried, I believe, without any eiissentient voices, except that the Otago representatives eliel not vote at all. Do yeiu gather from the evidence submitted to the Committee that the position has altered in both those places since then ? — it seems tei have done so. 14. As far as the local marketing is concerned in Otago and Canterbury, do you think the: same: dissatisfaction exists among growers there as in Nelson ? The market is in a state of chaos : does that apply in Otago and Canterbury ?—I have not heard eif the: same thing happening in Otago and Canterbury, but naturally the Otago and Canterbury growers aro in a better position to market their fruit than the Nelson growers, seeing they have no sea carriage necessary before they can get it to the market. 15. Do you not think that points to the fact that they lose the direct control by having to send it across the water, and they cannot follow as easily as the other growers ? Do you feel that is why the

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change of system is stronger in Otago- that in the past they have been able to follow their fruit to tho market ?—The necessity for improvement has not been so pronounced as with the Nelson growers. 16. Do you think they are safeguarded by the clause: making it necessary to vote before the Local Board can be brought in ? —I think that should be: a fair safeguard. 17. Do you think if there is a majority against it there is any chance of it being brought in ? The point is, the bigger growers contend that the smaller growers might outvote them ? —One's general idea is that the smaller grower woulel be: perhaps more likely to want, to retain his independence especially in districts like Canterbury, where he is generally pretty close to his market. 18. Mr. Hudson] In regard to export, do you think it, is absolutely essential that the Export Control Boarel should have: complete control of ever)' case of fruit that goes out of the Dominion without exception ? —lt is essential it should have the peiwer to take' complete control should circumstances arise which render it, advantageous and desirable to do so. 19. Without any exception I mean in the Bill ?—lt might be possible: to make some; exception to meet provincial conditions. 20. You mean that it woulel be: possible to put a .clause into the: Bill whieii woulel alleiw any province to stand out ?— I dei not mean from that, point of view at, all. If the Export Control Beiarel is geiing to elo any gooel at all it must have control over the: wheile output eif the; Dominion. 21. Without exception ?—Yes. But, as to how it exercises the, control, that is another question, 22. That is left to the Board ? —Yes, as the Bill stands.

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