DEFENCE BILL COMMITTEE (REPORT OF), TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AND APPENDIX. (Hon. Sir W. J. STEWARD, Chairman.)

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1909 Session II, I-07

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1909. NEW ZEALAND.

DEFENCE BILL COMMITTEE (REPORT OF), TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AND APPENDIX. (Hon. Sir W. J. STEWARD, Chairman.)

Beport brought up 10th December, 1909, and ordered to be printed.

ORDERS OF REFERENCE. Extracts from the Journals of the House of Representatives. Friday, the 3ed Day of December, 1909. Ordered, " That a Select Committee be appointed, consisting of ten members, to whom shall be referred the Defence Bill; three to form a quorum : the Committee to consist of Mr. Allen, Mr. Brown, Mr. Clark, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Jennings, Mr. Reed, Mr. Rhodes, Hon. Sir W. J. Steward, and the mover."—(Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward.) Ordered, " That the Defence Bill be referred to a Select Committee to be appointed to consider the same."—(Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward.)

EEPOET. The Committee to whom was referred the Defence Bill have the honour to report that they have ■carefully considered the same, and recommend that it be allowed to proceed with the amendments shown on the attached copy. The reports of Colonel Robin and staff are attached herewith. 10th December, 1909. W. J. Steward, Chairman. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS. Thursday, 9th December, 1909. The Committee met at 10.30 a.m., pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Allen, Mr. Clark, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Jennings, Mr. Reed, Mr. Rhodes, Hon. Sir W. J. Steward, Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward. The order of reference setting up the Committee was read by the Clerk. The Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward moved, and Mr. Allen seconded, That the Hon. Sir W. J. Steward be Chairman of the Committee. On the question being put, it was resolved in the affirmative. The Hon. Sir W. J. Steward thanked the Committee for the honour conferred on him. The order of reference referring the Defence Bill to the Committee was read by the Clerk. Resolved, That clauses 1 to 8, inclusive, stand part of the Bill. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clause 9be postponed for future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 10 and 11 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clause 12 be postponed for future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 13 to 19, inclusive, as printed, stand part ot the Bill. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clauses 20 to 28 be postponed lor future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 29 and 30 as printed stand part of the Bill.

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS.

Thursday, 9th December, 1909. The Committee met at 10.30 a.m., pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Allen, Mr. Clark, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Jennings, Mr. Reed, Mr. Rhodes, Hon. Sir W. J. Steward, Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward. The order of reference setting up the Committee was read by the Clerk. The Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward moved, and Mr. Allen seconded, That the Hon. Sir W. J. Steward be Chairman of the Committee. On the question being put, it was resolved in the affirmative. The Hon. Sir W. J. Steward thanked the Committee for the honour conferred on him. The order of reference referring the Defence Bill to the Committee was read by the Clerk. Resolved, That clauses 1 to 8, inclusive, stand part of the Bill. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clause 9 be postponed for future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 10 and 11 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clause 12 be postponed for future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 13 to 19, inclusive, as printed, stand part of the Bill. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clauses 20 to 28 be postponed for future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 29 and 30 as printed stand part of the Bill.

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Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clauses 31 to 33, inclusive, be postponed for future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 34 and 35 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clauses 36 to 53, inclusive, be postponed for future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 54 to 72, inclusive, as printed, stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 73 be postponed for future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 74 to 88, inclusive, as printed, stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 89 be postponed for future consideration. Resolved, That clauses 90 to 93, inclusive, as printed, stand part of the Bill. Clause 94. The Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward moved to amend clause 94 by striking out the words " under the age of twenty-one years " in line 28. On the question being put, it was resolved in the affirmative. Resolved, That the clause as amended stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clauses 95 to 103 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That the First Schedule as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That the Second Schedule as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, that Colonel Robin (Chief of General Staff) be instructed to forward a report on the Defence Bill to-day, and also to furnish therewith subsidiary reports from Che officers of his staff. Resolved, That the Committee adjourn until 9.30 a.m., Fridav, the 10th day of December, 1909. The Committee then adjourned.

Friday, 10th December, 1909. The Committee met at 9.30 a.m., pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Allen, Mr. Brown, Mr. Clark, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Jennings, Mr. Mr. Rhodes, Hon. Sir W. J. Steward, Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Resolved, That clause 9 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 12 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 20 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 21 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 22 as printed stand part of the Bill. Clause 23. On the question being put, That clause 23 as printed stand part of the Bill, the Committee divided, and the names were taken down as follow: — Ayes, 8.—Mr. Brown, Mr. Clark, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Jennings, Mr. Reed, Hon. Sir W. J. Steward, Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward. Noes, 2.—Mr. Allen, Mr. Rhodes. So it was resolved in the affirmative. Resolved, That clause 24 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 25 as printed stand part of the Bill. Clause 26. On the question being put, That clause 26 as printed stand part of the Bill, the Committee divided, and the names were taken down as follow: — Ayes, 7.—Mr. Brown, Mr. Clark, Mr. Hanan, Mr. Jennings, Mr. Reed, Hon. Sir W. J. Steward, Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward. Noes, 3.—Mr. Allen, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Rhodes. So it was resolved in the affirmative. Resolved, That clause 27 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 28 as printed stand part of the Bill. And, the hour of half after ten having arrived, the Committee adjourned until 11.30 a.m. this day. And, the hour of half after eleven having arrived, the Committee resumed. Resolved, That clause 31 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 32 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 33 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 36 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clauses 37 to 53, inclusive, as printed, stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 73 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 89 as printed stand part of the Bill. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That the following new clause be inserted: — " 27a. (1.) The Governor may from time to time, by Order in Council, provide for transferring to His Majesty any property held by trustees for the benefit of any Volunteer corps or for Volunteer purposes; so, however, that all property so transferred shall as from the date of the transfer he held by His Majesty for the benefit in like manner of the corresponding unit of the Territorial Force or for such other purposes as the Minister, with the consent of that corresponding unit (to be ascertained in the prescribed manner), directs. " (2.) Any question which may arise as to whether any property is transferred to His Majesty, or as to the trusts or purposes on or for which it is or ought to be held, shall be referred for the decision of the Minister, whose decision shall be final.

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" (3.) In the event of any such transfer the corresponding unit of the Territorial Force shall, notwithstanding any trust, limitation, or condition affecting the property transferred, become entitled to the estate or interest in the property of the unit to the property of which the Order relates; but, subject to this provision, the interest of any beneficiary other than such unit shall not, without the consent of such beneficiary, be affected. " (4.) The Order may, if the Governor, having regard to the special circumstances of any case, thinks ifit, provide for the appointment of special trustees to act in regard to any such property, and such special trustees may be the existing trustees of that property." Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clause 8 be recommitted for reconsideration. The Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward moved to amend clause 8 by inserting the words " the same rank in " after the words " of officers of " in line 21. On the question being put, it was resolved in the affirmative. Resolved, That clause 8 as amended stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That clause 93 be recommitted for reconsideration. Resolved, on the motion of the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, That clause 93 be amended by striking out the word "civil" in line 22, and inserting the word "non-combatant" in lieu thereof. Resolved, That clause 93 as amended stand part of the Bill. Resolved, That the Bill as amended be reported to the House, together with the reports of Colonel Robin and staff. The Committee then adjourned.

APPENDIX. Memorandum from A. W. Robin, Colonel, Chief op the General Staff. Sib,— Wellington, 9th December, 1909. I have the honour to forward Report on Defence Bill, as requested in your letter of the 9th instant. As regards subsidiary reports from officers on the staff here— Colonel Tuson is on leave to Sydney; Major Lascelles is not available this afternoon, not being expected on duty to-day ; Captain Richardson is in Canterbury District in camp with the Garrison Artillery; Subsidiary report by Lieut.-Colonel Chayior is attached herewith. Also please find attached copy of Defence Bill, with gist of what the regulations will provide for (marked in red ink in margin) for your convenience. Sir W. J. Stewaed, A. W. Robin, Colonel, Chairman, Defence Bill Committee. Chief of the General Staff. REPORT ON THE DEFENCE BILL BY COLONEL ROBIN. Section 12. The provision in the Bill for a small Council of Defence, with power to call in expert advisers, is a distinct advantage; such Council deciding on the policy, and the manner in which the policy is to be carried out by the General Headquarters provided for in " Powers of Governor." Section 5. Headquarters of Defence and District Commanders and staff is set up, which under the new Bill would include an officer or officers of the Imperial General Staff that it may be decided to employ. The above will necessitate the reorganizing of the present Headquarters on the lines of Schedule A attached. Such reorganization would not interfere with the appointments of Imperial officers now serving in the Dominion (see section 103) (viz., Colonel Tuson, Lieut.-Colonel Head, Major Lascelles). Colonel Tuson and Lieut.-Colonel Head would still continue their present duties; Major Lascelles would require to do staff duties under organization until expiry of his term of appointment. Section 14 (Commandant). There does not seem any necessity for the inclusion of the section "Duties of the commandant": the provision in section 5, (&), "Governor may appoint Commandant," should be sufficient. Section 15. The Permanent Force would under this Bill become more of an instructional force than a regiment of Garrison Artillery, and schools of musketry, gunnery, and communication for all branches of the Forces would be set up at each centre. Section 20. The Territorial Force allotted to each district would be composed of all arms, or as nearly so as possible under the local conditions; in conformity with Imperial establishments, and equipment; divided into Garrison Artillery divisions for forts and lights, brigades of Mounted Rifles and Infantry, Field Artillery and Engineers, Mounted and Dismounted Signalling Companies, Supply Columns for brigades, Field Ambulances, &c. Section 28. Regulations for training in the Territorial Force will include a period in camp for all branches. (See Schedule B,' " Proposed Training.") Generally, I consider the Bill a sound one. It provides for the training of youth through progressive stages up to the age of twenty-one, and sets up a force in the Territorials ready to take the field at short notice, with provision for augmenting same or filling up wastage from the Reserve. The provision for a Reserve of Officers will enable the full value of Officers' Training Corps to be felt in the course of a very few years. 9th December, 1909. , A. W. Robin, Colonel. Ineet»-I. 7.

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Schedule A.

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Schedule B.—Proposed Training Minimum, Territorials.

" Camp " means day and night, with exercises as ordered daily. " Whole day " means 6 hours ) " Half day" means 3 hours las equivalents. " Night drill " means 1£ hours] The above will require to be carefully gone into by the experts in each branch of the service, the figures given being a minimum.

Report on the Defence Bill by Lieutenant-Colonel Chattor. Sir,— Wellington, 9th December, 1909. I have gone through the Defence Bill, and would suggest the following points for consideration : — 1. In section 2, definition of '-'Commanding Officer," insert the words "or body of troops" after the word " camp " in line 40. 2. Would it not be better to give the words "corps" and "unit" the same meaning as in the Army Act and King's Regulations? 3. Sections 5 (b), 12, 13, and 14 (Governor may appoint a Commandant, a Council of Defence, and an Inspector-General) :If all three are appointed, the duties will overlap; and if no Commandant is appointed, the duties in section 14 must be given to the Council and the Inspector-General. 4. Section 28, (3):" Every person," in line 31, should not include others than the rank and file. 5. Section 30, (2): The exemptions are rather wide. In the case of medical practitioners, they will be urgently required in time of war, and, unless section 36 gives sufficient power, all should be liable to serve, either as soldiers or, if required, in their civil or professional capacity. 6. Section 93 : Instead of "civil," in line 22, I would suggest " non-combatant." The Chief of the General Staff. E. W. C. Chattor, Lieut.-Colonel. Approximate Cost of Paper.— Preparation, not given; printing (1,600 copies), £i 12s.

Approximate Coat of Paper.— Preparation, not given; printing (1,500 copies), £i 12s.

Authority : John Mackay, Government Printer, Wellington.—l9o9

Price 6d.)

In Camp (Days). In Days' Equivalents. Total Days. Garrison Artillery 6 15 21 Field Artillery and Engineers ... Mounted Rifles, — 10 11 21 Ambulances Supply ... 10 8 18 Signalling Infantry,— 12 Ambulance I 6 18 Supply ... Signalling