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1904. NEW ZEALAND.
WAIPORI FALLS ELECTRICAL POWER BILL COMMITTEE (REPORT OF THE); TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. (Mr. W. FRASER, Chairman.)
Report and Evidence brought up 22nd September, and ordered to be printed 27th September, 1904.
REPOBT. Your Committee have the honour to report: — They find the allegations of the preamble proved to their satisfaction. They have carefully considered the several clauses of the Bill, and have made the following amendments therein: — Clause S. —They have struck out the words giving the company power to execute necessary works, and have repeated those words in a new clause (3b). They have added a proviso prohibiting the company from supplying energy for lighting or domestic heating within the City of Dunedin without the consent of the Corporation first obtained; but this prohibition is not to apply to cases where the company is supplying a certain amount of energy for industrial purposes. They have added two new clauses —viz., 3a —providing for the establishment of a Board of Control; and 3b, giving power to the company to execute necessary works, subject to such regulations as may be agreed upon between the company and the local authorities concerned, with power to the company to appeal to the Board of Control against any oppressive conditions imposed by a local authority. Clause 6. —They have added a new proviso, making, in certain cases, the Supreme Court sitting at Dunedin the Compensation Court for the purposes of the Bill. Clause 7. —In view of the provisions of section sixty-eight of " The Public Works Act, 1894," they have omitted this clause as unnecessary. Clause 8. —They have added a provision that the draft of any by-laws proposed to be made by the company shall be forwarded to the local authorities concerned. Clause 10. —They have struck out a portion of the clause, so as to restrict the operations of the company to the area of supply as described in the Bill. They have added a new clause —11a —imposing penalties on the company in case it fails to comply with the provisions of the Bill, or with any requirement of the Board of Control. They have added at the end of the Bill the following new clauses: — 13. Giving the company power to assign its undertaking. 14 Giving the Corporation of the City of Dunedin power to purchase the company's undertaking within a certain time and on certain conditions. 15. Saving to the local authorities concerned the right to agree with any other company or person for the supply of energy, or to supply the same themselves. W. Fbaseb, Thursday, the 22nd day of September, 1904. Chairman. Note.—Por reprint of Bill showing the above amendments, vide No. 2-2 (Private), 1904.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Thuesday, 18th August, 1904. Peter Duncan examined. (No. 1.) 1. Dr. Findlay. You are connected with the company referred to in this Bill? —Yes. 2. What connection have you with the company? —I am solicitor to the company. 3. How long has the company been in existence? —Since September or November, 1902. 4. What rights in connection with the Waipori Falls has the company acquired? —The company holds the right to 130 Government heads of water in the Waipori River. 5. How far is that from Dunedin? —I understand it is about twenty-six miles from Dunedin — that is, to the falls. 6. And in what county? —The County of Tuapeka. 7. What is the term of the license held by the company? —The license held by the company consists of one, granted originally in the name of John Lawson, dated May, 1900. 8. For what term? —Forty-two years, under the Mining Act of 1898, for eighty heads, and another right to fifty heads, originally granted to Alfred Henry Inder for forty-two years from September, 1900. 9. Those are all the rights you hold? —Yes, except the mining rights over a tributary for sawmilling purposes, a right on Shepherd's Creek for a few heads of water which the company uses for power on their sawmilling plant, which has now been in use since 1901. 10. The company under these licenses was compelled to do certain work, was it not? —That is so. Under the Mining Act, under which Act the licenses were granted, it is absolutely necessary that the holders of licenses must at once commence operations, and having commenced them must βontinμe operations without intermission.
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11. What has the company done up to the present time? —Up to the present the company has carried on the development of its hydraulic works, which necessarily had to be of considerable magnitude. 12. For what purpose? —For the purpose of conveying the water from the intake to the power-house site. The distance is about a mile and a half, carried through difficult country, part of it being tunnelling. The race is constructed of flume-work made on the site almost entirely of red birch, for which the company holds a timber license, and I think altogether something like £12,000 has been expended in that work. 13. Do these photographs illustrate the work that has been done? —Yes. [Photographs put in.] Taking them seriatim, we have the intake and dam site before the crib dam was constructed, then we have the crib dam after construction. It certainly shows a larger volume of water going over than usual, as the photograph was taken after a rainy day. The next photograph shows part of the flume. I was present when the photographs were taken. This photograph shows one mile of the flume at a glance. This is the flume at the intake, and here we have one of the spillways. [Photographs pointed out.] They are chiefly photographs showing the flume. As bearing upon that I just wish to show one indication which seems to me to be explanatory of the whole thing. Here is where our race debouches. [Place pointed out.] 14. Twelve thousand pounds, however, has been spent in that work? —Yes. 15. What additional sum has been spent by the company in connection with the operations? — I could not say exactly as to that. 16. If you can give us a rough estimate we will get the details later? —I have not got the details. I know there have been several other sums spent. 17. I believe about £4,000 more? —Yes, I believe there has been about that. I confine the £12,000 to flume-work. 18. What is your scheme? —The scheme is generally to generate electricity at the powerhouse and to transmit that electricity to different points within the area to be supplied. 19. The scheme as set out in the preamble of the Bill truly states the purpose and nature of this work? —Yes. 20. You verify the preamble as it stands? —Yes. 21. Can you say what sum the completed scheme will cost the company? —The estimates show about £103,000 for the completion of the scheme to generate 6,000-horse power —that is, 6,000---horse power landed at the end of the transmission-way, not at the power-house. 22. Three installations, I think, are required? —The installations are to be made in three sections of 2,000-horse power each. 23. And the cost will be what? —One hundred and six thousand pounds. Our first installation, we expect, will land us into about £56,000, because that embraces the hydraulic works and the transmission-line. 24. In addition to the £12,000 you have spent, the company has entered into several contracts? —Yes, I can speak definitely on that, because I drew the contracts. 25. How much have you committed yourselves to in contracts? —The position is this: This water will be transmitted and brought down the fall 680 ft. perpendicularly —that is, from the end of the flume to the power-house by a series of water-pipes. 26. And the pipes? —£2,200, served on Pelton wheels. 27. What is the cost of the Pelton wheels? —£4,256 for the Pelton wheels for the first installation. 28. The next cost? —These Pelton wheels will have connected with them generators, and the cost of these —to which we have made ourselves liable, as we have to the others —will be £7,000. 29. Are there any others? —These are as many as we have committed ourselves to jet. 30. In addition to what you have told the Committee, you have bound yourselves to spend £14,000 more?— Yes. 31. These are contracts to which you have bound yourselves in addition to "the £12,000 mentioned —Yes. 32. Do I take it that all the work you have done was proceeded with on the assumption that you would supply the City of Dunedin ? —Yes, that is so. 33. How many local authorities mentioned in the preamble have consented to this Bill? -All except Dunedin City. I think there are nineteen. ■ 34. The Chairman.'] You are not including Lawrence? —No. I believe, as a matter of fact, there are three other boroughs that want to come in, but in that there was a slight oversight. Outram, Balclutha, and Kaitangata wish to come in. 35. Dr. Findlay.] Can you say what will be the effect upon the company and its undertaking if this Bill is not passed ? —The effect must necessarily be, first of all, that the company will not get the capital necessary to finish the work; secondly, that they will not be able to go on. As a matter of fact, they cannot go on without a Bill —Parliamentary sanction has to be obtained first of all. 36. The Chairman.] Do you mean the Bill in its present form? —An authorising Bill. And if the Bill were mutilated by the City of Dunedin being left out, commercial men or financiers would say, "We cannot give our capital for this work —you have cut away your main outlet of supply." 37. Dr. Findlay. _ And then you would take a little less than £1 for your shares? —Yes: I should feel it very much, because I am a large shareholder. 38. You told us, I think, about the horse-power? —Yes, we will land 6,000. That is not at the power-house. 39. You will land 6,000-horse power at your destination?— Yes. 40. Do you know whether there is likely to be a demand for all the power you will be able to give to Dunedin ? —I understand that the company has offers, or that willingness has been expressed in Dunedin to take power to the extent of about 2,000-horse power now, and I have also received intimation of further horse-power being needed. That will not absorb in the first instance the whole of the 6,000; but it would be a sorry thing if we created a demand and had only a thousand-horse power left. But if we created this demand —and the history of similar
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undertakings shows that we should —we feel sure it would not be long before Dunedin itself would be able to absorb the whole 6,000-horse power. Statistics are very clear on that point. 41. Mr. MacGregor.] You are solicitor to the company, are you not? —I am. 42. And you are also a shareholder in the company? —Yes. 43. A large shareholder? —Fairly large. 44. What do you call fairly large? —I hold 600 shares. 45. Then, besides being anxious about the Bill professionally, you have very large interests as a proprietor ? —Well, I am a shareholder and solicitor to the company. 46. Were you one of the promoters? —Yes. 47. What did you get for that? —1 was the original individual to get this right along with Mr. Richardson with whom I bought it from Mr. Lawson. 48. But what did you get as promoter of the company? —5,500 shares were constituted for the purpose of going to the shareholders who came in first —200 shares for every 500 shares they should subscribe for. 49. How many shares did you get? —Two hundred. 50. Dr. Findlay.] Did you get any cash? —No one got any cash. The exact position is that the company paid £5,500 for the water-rights by giving to the partnership who owned them 5,500 fully paid-up shares of £1 each. 51. What has been called up in respect of the contributing shares? —Sixteen shillings. The calls have been made as the shares went out. On the first shares the calls come to 16s. 52. Sixteen shillings has been called up? —Yes, on the first issue. 53. How many contributing shares have been issued altogether? —I believe between thirty-two and thirty-three thousand. 54. The Chairman.] Of what denomination are the shares--£1 or £5? —£1. On 16,000 of these 16s. has been called up. 55. Mr. MacGregor.] And on the remainder? —I think the amounts vary up to 65., as they happened to have been issued. 56. So we may take it that the contributing capital is about £33,000? —That is so. 57. Can you state actually what is the paid-up capital? —No. The calls are practically paid vp —the calls are good. 58. About £16,000 has been paid up? —Yes. 59. You have told us that the company was in a position to generate 6,000 electrical horsepower ? —Yes. 60. These figures you have obtained, I presume, from your engineers? —Yes. 61. You do not state that of your own knowledge?--That is so. 62. You obtained that from Mr. Stark, who is present in the room? —Yes. 63. Where do you propose to have your distributing-station? —In the vicinity of Dunedin. 64. Can you not state it more definitely than that? —I can only say "vicinity." If I said " Halfway Bush," it has an area of five miles. 65. Is the site fixed yet? —It is in the vicinity of Dunedin in the most direct line we can find from the Taieri County, which will probably be at Halfway Bush. 66. It will be quite sufficient for my purpose if you say it is not fixed? —That is too indefinite. It is in the vicinity of Halfway Bush. 67. Notwithstanding that the company has spent this large sum of money, it has not in its corporate mind made up and fixed where the station is to be? —It is in the vicinity of Dunedin, towards the Halfway Bush. 68. Is there no plan in existence showing where the distributing-station is to be put —no spot fixed on ? —There is no spot fixed yet. 69. And no land bought for the purpose? —No. '70. You spoke of a route across the Taieri County. Has a route been fixed upon? —No. The Taieri County has asked us, but we have refused because it was a matter for final determination by the officer under the Electric Lines Act. 71. Have you not got your order under the Electric Lines Act? —No. 72. So that, as far as we can see, the whole scheme is very much in the clouds, except that you have spent about £12,000 in a flume? —That is not so. 73. You have not spent any money except in fluming? —We have determined our line, but whether it shall go through Mosgiel or at the back of the hills close to where Lee Stream transmis-sion-line goes is not yet determined. The Taieri County Council wanted us to decide, but Mr. Stark refused to go into the subject. They want us to go through the Taieri Plain, but we have not decided whether it shall go through to near Buntings or closer to Burnside. It is a matter for the engineers. It is more than likely that we shall debouch about the same spot as that where the City of Dunedin intends to place their sub-station. 74. You say that this work has been done on the assumption that you would be able to supply the City of Dunedin?—Well, let it stand at that —that we assumed that we would get into Dunedin. 75. Do you not know that the Corporation of Dunedin strongly objected to your scheme? — Apparently not. Far from objecting to it, the evidence of the Mayor, given in this House before a Committee, was to the effect that he might one day like to get the Waipori Falls for the purpose of getting the power into Dunedin. 76. Do you mean to say that it is only lately that you have been faced with this opposition ? —That is so —only lately. 77. You know that the company has been negotiating with the city for the last two years? — The company has made, I think, three offers to the city, but the city has never said that it will not let the company in. 78. Do you mean to say that you did not know when you spent this £12,000 that if the City Council could prevent you you would not get your power into Dunedin ? —I honestly say that I did not know that the city would go the length of opposing us. 79. Do you mean to say that any city would allow such a line to be laid down without protest? -I. may be under a wrong impression, but I do not think the Corporation represents the desire of the city in respect of the matter.
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80. You know that the Council, as distinct from the city, did object? —I know now. 81. And although you know the Council object you still persist in throwing away your money, because you think the Council do not represent the citizens ? —I only knew that a month ago. In a report of the meeting of the Council, I read that every one stood up and said he thought he was doing a mean thing except Councillor Scott and the Mayor. 82. Were you not aware that the City Council had another scheme of their own that they were proceeding to develop ? —Yes, there was some talk about it. 83. Apart from that, did they not have the statutory power? —Yes, in 1903 they got the statutory power. 84. And you still say in face of that that your work was done on the assumption that your company would be allowed to supply Dunedin with power ? —1 do. The first intimation I got that the Council would oppose us was from the Town Clerk about a month or six weeks ago. When he got a copy of the Bill he told me the Council would oppose us tooth and nail, and I was amazed. 85. So that you may take it that immediately your Bill was advertised you received notice from the Town Clerk that the Corporation would oppose your Bill ? —He told me so on the street. The City Council passed a resolution to that effect afterwards. That is about six weeks ago. 86. You told us that you have some £16,000 paid-up capital, out of which you have paid away £12,000? —Yes, in the race alone. 87. How else have you paid money away? —I cannot go into detail on that. 88. Then it is a pity you were called to give evidence if you do not know the facts ? —We have made payments on other things. 89. That means that you have less than £4,000 on hand? —Yes, we have less than £4,000. 90. And your projected works are to cost £106,000? —Our first installation will cost £56,000. 91. And the total installation is £106,000? —Yes, which is very cheap. That is where the advantage will come in to the city —that it will be cheap power. 92. With regard to the contracts you say you are bound by, for an additional £14,000: you have not got them with you? —No. The agreements are in Dunedin. 93. Could you arrange by telegram to get them? —Yes. 94. I am instructed that some of these contracts have been made conditionally on this Bill passing? —That is not so, and since a doubt has been cast upon us, we will bring them here. 95. Now, the distance from Dunedin by the transmission-line—-how far will that be? —I expect it will be about thirty miles, although I believe it is only twenty-six miles as the crow flies —that is, to the power-house —to the end of the flume. 96. These water-rights and licenses were granted under the Mining Act? —Yes. They could not be granted under any other Act. The conditions have all been complied with.---97. Where does the license say anything about the water being used for mining and industrial purposes? —Mr. Lawson, the original holder of the rights, got his right to eighty heads of water out of the watercourse commonly known as the Waipori River for the purpose of generating electrical power. 98. That, of course, is for mining purposes? —For electrical power. 99. There was no suggestion that it was to be used for other than mining purposes? —The Warden had a special report from the engineer on the subject before he would grant such a large power, and he granted it for the purpose of generating electricity for industrial purposes. There is power under the Act to do so for industrial purposes. 100. Was not the first grant for the special purpose of working dredges? —No. 101. Is it not a fact that the application on which this document was granted was made expressly for the purpose of the power being used in mining? You do not know that, as a matter of fact? —I had nothing to do with it. There is no evidence of it. We did not become possessed of this right until eighteen months afterwards. 102. You have told us that nineteen local authorities have consented to the Bill? —Well, have approved of what we were doing. 103. Have you got the consent of the Taieri County Council? —Yes. 104. When was that obtained? —Some time ago, subject to our consummating the agreement which was then in course of discussion. That agreement has been consummated. 105. When was that agreement consummated? —On Tuesday last, after negotiating for two months. 106. That is the day before yesterday, and after negotiating for two months? —Yes, that is so. 107. And by that agreement do you contract to give the Taieri County a portion of your power? —Yes, 75-horse power at a reduced rate —10 per cent, or 15 per cent, discount, I think. 108. Have you got that agreement with you? —No. 109. Could you get that? —That is in a different position from the other documents I promised to get. If there is a duplicate of the agreement I could. It was typed and put under seal by our company the day I left Dunedin. 110. You have had a good deal of difficulty with the Taieri County Council? —I do not look upon it in that way, when people are desirous of doing a fair thing. I do not regard it as a difficulty. 111. There was a good deal of misunderstanding between you? —No,- there was not. 112. They say you misled them —that Mr. Stark made a bargain and went back on them? — That is not a misunderstanding, and I do not think the Taieri County Council have been guilty of saying we misled them. 113. Is this 75-horse power tKe only concession the Taieri County Council gets? —No. 114. What else do they get? —We give them £50 a year as a contribution towards the expenses of their engineer in watching that we carry our line out properly, because our transmissionline is wholly through the Taieri County. [Mr. MacGregor, said he would get the rest of the particulars from the agreement itself .j] 115. Mr. MacGregor.] You say that three other boroughs wished to come in in addition to Balolutha? —Well, there is Lawrence, Outram, and Kaitangata. Lawrence has passed a resolu-
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tion on the subject. Mr. Hosking has insisted that Outram, being in his county, should have the benefit of the power. Interested parties in Lawrence and Kaitangata have also spoken to me about it. 116. So that twenty-two local authorities are apparently dying to get this Bill passed? —Are wishing to get it passed. 117. And one local authority is not wishing for it? —Yes. 118. Now, you have been very successful in getting contracts or offers for your power already, have you not? —Yes, people have expressed their willingness to do business with us. 119. But have you not actually got offers?— You can call them that, if you like; but people will not bind themselves down to agreements until you can supply them. 120. I understand that Messrs. Ross and Glendining alone want a large power? —I understand so. 121. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that you have a large number of applications? —I have looked over the list. 122. What is the total power on the list? —It runs into about 2,000-horse power so far. 123. That is outside of Dunedin?—-That is within what I would call the city. 124. Outside the city what applications have you got? —I cannot tell you that. 125. You know you have an application from Messrs. Ross and Glendining? —I understand there needs would be about 500-horse power. 126. Then there is the Roslyn Tramway Company? —Yes, they want 150- to 200-horse power, but that is as much outside the city as inside. 127. Then there is the Mornington Tramway. Company ?--- There are negotiations going on with them. I think they want 120-horse power. 128. And the Government Workshops—do they not want any? —We would like to get them. 129. Is there not some mention of a carbide-factory being started? —Yes. 130. Where is that to be started? —In the city. 131. What do you expect to get from twenty-two local bodies —how many horse-power will they demand? —I cannot tell you that. 132. Would it be fair to assume that each one would take 120-horse power? —No, not each one. 133. How much? —Well, I know enough of the subject to say that it would be simply ridiculous to say whether or not Port Chalmers should stand in the same relation to Dunedin, or Caversham to Maori Hill, and so forth. 134. You have read up the literature and been primed by Mr. Stark and his coadjutors, can you not give the Committee an idea of the probable demand of these local bodies? —I could not. I have not been primed. I have not studied the detail part of it, because it is unnecessary for me to do so, for this one good reason: that electrical energy creates its own demand, and you could not say in what outside local body the greatest demand will spring up. The greatest need and demand will be in the City of Dunedin. 135. Are you convinced there will be a demand for it in each of these local areas? —Yes, in one way or another. 136. You said that if the Bill was not passed the company will not be able to get the capital wanted to finish the work ? —Yes. 137. What did you mean by that? —That we still want £20,000 to bring the necessary amount up to £56,000 for the first installation. 138. Supposing Dunedin is excluded from the operations of the company?— There will be the greatest demand there. You know the value of the cement-works alone to Dunedin. They do 90 per cent, of the trade, and they want power. They are in Dunedin. 139. You could not make the company a commercial success without coming into Dunedin? - Ido not think so. The company might be killed in its infancy. 140. Do you not think you were shortsighted to spend so much money before you knew whether you could get into Dunedin? —No, Ido not. It is experience that shows that in all these things you have to make a move. 141. What will be the cost of reticulation ?—I do not think there is a man in the room who can give that. 142. You have a company with a nominal capital of £100,000? —Yes. 143. With contributing shares issued to £33,000? —Yes. 144. Of which you have spent £12,000, or something more? —Yes. 145. And you know that to bring your power to the outskirts of Dunedin it will cost you £106,000? —No, not at all; £56,000 is the cost of the first installation. 146. Six thousand-horse power is what you based your calculation upon? —Yes. 147. You say that to bring 6,000-horse power to Dunedin will cost you £106,000? —That is so.
Friday, 19th August, 1904. Examination of Peter Duncan continued. (No. 2.) 1. Mr. HerriesY] I would like to ask you a few questions with respect to the company for the information of the Committee. I presume the articles of association of your company are before us? —Yes, they are filed with the papers in accordance with the Standing Orders. The history of the constitution of the company is this: When the company was registered in the first instance with a capital of £16,500, it was really not known at that time what would be the scope of the company's works. Our eyes were opened as we went on. We found, when the estimates had been gone into, that the work was going to be one of very considerable magnitude, and we increased the capital to £100,000. The whole of the £16,500 original capital was subscribed almost at once. A little loading —as one might call it at the start —was made on the distinct basis or understanding that no one was to be permitted to come in unless he subscribed a certain amount.
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He got a reward for that, and it was confined to the first twenty. It was not in the ordinary form of floating a business at all. The company's capital was increased to £100,000, and the constitution of the company was laid out in such a way that there should not be any necessity for reconstruction for such a purpose at all. It has been the company's intention from the beginning to avoid any such thing. The directors from the beginning have had a distinct understanding among them and between themselves and the shareholders not on the Board that there should be absolutely no steps taken or methods adopted which could by any kind of interpretation be termed "exploiting. It was to be a clear commercial undertaking designed to do benefit to the district generally, and ultimately, we hoped, to do benefit to ourselves, because those who took the largest interest in it were citizens of Dunedin who would probably be more benefited indirectly by the commercial success of Dunedin than by any little money which might come to them in the way of dividends from the company. 2. What is the total amount of capital you have available under the articles of association for undertaking this work when all the calls are made? —The contributing capital is £94,500--that is, if we had all our contributing shares issued —out of a total capital of £100,000. Of those contributing shares about 33,000 are allotted and already subscribed. 3. How much total subscribed capital have you at the present moment ?--Thirty-three thousand pounds. 4. Supposing this Bill is put through, do you anticipate any difficulty in getting the total capital of £100,000? —No. The steps the directors have in view are these: Thirty-three thousand shares have been subscribed for. Our first installation costs us £56,000. We should not expect that all that power would be in use within a, day —it would be a poor look-out for the supply if that were so. We feel certain, however, that if the Bill is passed the balance that is still required to make up the £56,000 will be subscribed. We issued a prospectus in the month of May last, stating, in accordance with the statute, the minimum subscription on which the shares shall be allotted at £10,000, and the £10,000 was subscribed within six weeks. 5. Have you a copy of that prospectus? —Yes. But immediately the City Council gave notice of their opposition to the Bill there was a drop aud subscriptions did not come in, while several financial men in Dunedin told me that they were waiting to see the result before subscribing any more. 6. The company was reconstructed under this prospectus? —The companj' was never reconstructed. We merely, under the power of our articles of association, increased our capital. 7. It is proposed to raise all the capital in Dunedin? It is not proposed to raise money on debentures in the Home market? —No. I expect that what will take place is this: We have set our face against borrowing, but when the first installation is built up by the subscribed capital, it will be a matter for the directors to consider whether they will call on the shareholders to provide the money for the second installation, or whether it will be better to borrow on debentures for that. I have not the slightest doubt that the capital will come forward easily for the second installation once the first is fairly set going—by asking the shareholders to come forward. The shareholders are not confined to Dunedin, and actually applications have come from England from persons who have heard of the company —that is, to the extent of a few hu-ndred pounds. But the company is a Dunedin company. 8. You do not intend, if the Bill goes through Parliament, to call in a larger company-you actually intend to go on with the work at once? The Committee wants to know whether it is au absolutely bond fide transaction ?- -Everything that we have done points to our bond fides, and our intention is to keep it just as it is. 9. You are satisfied that you are financially strong enough to undertake the work? —Yes. 10. The first installation will take the power into all the places mentioned that you propose to supply, and you think j'ou will make a profit? —I should not say that, because we should require to bring along our second installation in order to get to all those places. • 11. You do expect to get a profit on your first installation? —Yes, but we would still build up our capital. We are not looking for a profit on our first installation, but require to build up capital for our second. When we ask a man to take up shares he knows that there are 100,000, and he cannot complain if we call up our capital. 12. Supposing the first installation is made, do you know enough to say whether the company will be successful or not? —Yes. 13. Mr. Major.] I understood you to say you would allot the whole of your shares for the purpose of raising £100,000 capital? —Yes. 14. Unless the shares were applied for how could you do that) —Of course, we could not in thai case —that is, the shares must be applied for. But the success of our first installation will induce the public to subscribe. 15. Do you think the directors would resist an offer of, say, £50,000, for their present rights from outside capitalists? —I should feel sorry to think otherwise. I do not think I should be tempted to do so. This venture has been entered upon as an investment, I believe, by most of the people interested. 16. Dr. Findlay.] How many shareholders are there? —I think about 170, and we started with ten or eleven. 17. Mr. Buddo.] I understood you to say that if the City of Dunedin were left out you think your company would not make a start? —That is what it amounts to. 18. Could you give the Committee an idea of the amount of power you could profitably dispose of? —No. I should have to leave that to Mr. Stark. A person in my position can only speak in general terms, which I understand Dr. Findlay called me to do in order to establish the preamble. 19. Was any other expert opinion employed to give an estimate of the cost of conveying the power from the falls to the power-house than the company's own engineer? —The position about that is this: This undertaking consists of two classes of work. It is what is generally called a hydro-electrical undertaking. The hydraulic works were started under the engineership of Mr. Robert Hay, who is present here to-day, and he gave a report on these works which was veryencouraging, and which led us to have faith in them so far as the hydraulic part is concerned.
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As to the electrical installation —that is, from the power-house where the electricity is generated, from the end of the flume, and the transmission of the power to the distributing-stations, we will say—l believe there were reports of a very general kind, but none of them so thorough and exhaustive that we should have felt justified in going on but for the report of Mr. Stark. 20. Still, you have other opinions besides that of Mr. Stark? —Some have been given, but I should go on Mr. Stark's. 21. Acting as solicitor for your company, would you care to express an opinion as to whether your company would agree to include a clause in the Bill enabling them to dispose of their interests to any or all of the local bodies mentioned in the Bill at any fixed period during the currency of their water-rights? —I think so, because in the first instance the House has expressed its desire that it should be put in, and we should always remember that we should be governed by Parliament —we should keep in mind the sovereignty of Parliament. 22. The Chairman _\ But you understand that tlie House has no power to alter a private Bill. They may pass the Bill or refuse to pass it and send it back to the Committee, but they cannot alter it? —Taking a friendly hint thrown out before the House, we have already drafted a clause we thought of submitting in due course on that subject. 23. Mr. Fowlds.] I understand that you expect the company to be so successful with the first 2,000-horse power supplied that that wili be an inducement to others to find the further capital required to complete the work? —Yes, that is so. 24. You told us that you had several negotiations for power outside of Dunedin —Ross and Glendining, 500-horse power; the Roslyn Tramway Company, 200-horse power; and negotiations had been entered into for 120-horse power at Mornington. This would be for places outside of Dunedin, would it not? —Partly in Dunedin and partly outside of Dunedin. All these companies extend their operations into Dunedin. 25. The twenty-two local bodies also outside of Dunedin would want a considerable quantity. Supposing they took 50-horse power each, that would be 1,100-horse power, and with the power already mentioned that would nearly absorb your first installation of 2,000-horse power, would it not? —That is so, but we have no arrangement entered into with any one but the Roslyn Tramway Company so far. 26. I understood you to say that Ross and Glendining had applied for 500-horse power? — Mr. MacGregor mentioned that, but I do not know that there has been any arrangement come to. 27. Well, it would not be an extravagant estimate to say that your first 2,000-horse power might be absorbed without your going into Dunedin at all ? —Yes, if we could guarantee that all these people will use it; but it would be better if we could get it into the city. None of them will go the length of saying that they will take the power until we are able to supply it. With regard to the second installation, it might not pay us were it not for the first installation, because the cost of the bulk of the transmission-line and hydraulic works has been incurred for the first installation, and if we had no hope of going on with the second one we might have no chance at all. There is no doubt of this: that the way it is taken up in Dunedin will be the determining point of the whole thing. 28. The Chairman.] What you mean is this: that if you succeed in bringing the 2,000-horse power into Dunedin, that factor will be sufficiently powerful to settle the future prospects of the company, not that in itself the 2,000-horse power would be sufficient to make the company a financial success? —Yes, that explains the position. Robert Hay examined. (No. 3.) 29. Mr. MacGregor.] You are a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers?— Yes. 30. And you have been in practice in Dunedin for a great many years? —Yes. 31. You are at present acting as Consulting Engineer for the Dunedin City Corporation? — I am. 32. And you were formerly engineer to the Waipori Falls Electric Light and Power Com pany? —Yes, for their hydraulic works. 33. You are still, I think, a shareholder in that company? —Yes, a small shareholder. 34. To what extent?—l hold 100 shares. 35. You know this fact: that the Corporation has spent a large sum of money to improve the roads, tramway service, lighting, &c, in and around the City of Dunedin? —Yes, that is so. *36. To specify just a little, state in round figures the estimated cost of the electric tramway system? —It is something like over £300,000. 37. That involved, I think, the purchase of the old system? —Yes. 38. What did that cost the Corporation? —Forty-five thousand pounds, but I think they had a fire just about the same time and the insurance reduced it to £43,000. 39. Of that £43,000, what part was represented by goodwill? —I valued the tramways for the Corporation at about £18,000. That was practically as a going concern, including the track, cars, leaseholds, and sheds. My valuation was £15,000, more or less, and the horses £3,000. Of course, to lift the road and sell the old rails and cars in that way would be to reduce the value very much. I think that would probably work out at £5,000. 40. So that leaves a sum of close on £40,000 that was really paid for the goodwill of the concession ? —That is practically what it works out at. 41. Paragraph 5 of the petition of the Mayor, Councillors, and citizens says, "That your petitioners are now running by means of electricity a system of tramways in and adjacent to the City of Dunedin." That is within your knowledge? —Yes. 42. Where do the Corporation now get the power for running this system?—lt is a steam installation. 43. Do you know the cost of that steam installation?—l think it is about £15,000. 44. Paragraph 6: "That your petitioners are now expending a very large sum of money in bringing into the City of Dunedin a further large supply of electrical energy for supplying power for the said system of Corporation tramways." That is a fact within your knowledge?— Yes, that is so,
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45. This further large supply of electrical energy is to be supplied from a system known as Ihe Lee Stream -Taieri River Scheme? —Yes. The Lee Stream is the source from whence we bring the power in. 46. How long has that Lee-Taieri scheme been in contemplation by the City Council?—l reported on the probable flow and gauged the Taieri River in 1901. 47. We may take it that the scheme has been under consideration by the City Council for the last three years? —Yes. 48. And it has been a matter of public notoriety that this scheme was projected three years ago? —Yes, probably for four years. 49. Dr. There was no report made on the scheme in 1901 ? —No, not by me. 50. Mr. MacGregor.] You know as a matter of fact that the Council have been for the last, three or four years investigating the subject of acquiring electrical power from a stream or streams in the vicinity of Dunedin ?—Yes, I took up the rights of the Lee Stream for them. 51. And you are aware that the Lee-Taieri system has been reported on by Messrs. Orchard son, Goodman, and Rogers? —Yes. 52. And the result of their reports then was to convince the City Council that the Lee-Taieri scheme was the best available scheme for their purpose?--Yes, it necessarily follows from their having taken it up. 53. The Council, you say, are now taking steps to bring in electrical energy from the Lee Stream? —Yes. 54. And the works are now going on with that end in view? —Yes, the works are in actual progress now. I was over them about three months ago when the contractor failed, and 1 reported on the whole matter. 55. And you are thoroughly conversant with the whole matter?— Yes. 56. I would like you to give, as shortly as you can, a description of the scheme itself that will satisf}' the Committee? —The Lee Stream watershed is some 73,000 acres in area, and it is proposed to lift the water at a point on the Lee Stream and convey it by a pipe to and through a tunnel about a mile and a half long, whence it is again taken by pipes, graded alongside of the hill, to a point 714 ft. above the generating-station. At that station Pelton wheels will be erected and dynamos will be placed in position and the current generated and conveyed by a transmission-line to Dunedin, which is at a distance, to a point at Halfway Bush, of about twelve miles and a half from the generating-station. From there it is conveyed underground to the distributing-station in Dunedin, which is the present power-house. 57. That is a brief outline of the scheme? —Yes. 58. Now, I want you to tell us as accurately as you can what the cost of this scheme is to be? —To divert and transmit the minimum power that will be derived from the water at Lee Stream is estimated to cost £104,000. 59. How much of that is represented by the hydraulic work? —Sixty thousand pounds for the hydraulic work and £44,000 for the electrical work, transmission-line, transformers, and everything necessary to connect up with the Dunedin station. 60. How is it that the hydraulic portion of this amount is so large in proportion ? —lt has been designed and constructed in a permanent manner. 61. Is the tunnel through the solid rock? —Yes, and where not solid it will be lined with concrete. Wliere the conduit is not concrete it will be iron pipes. 62. The result of that expenditure of £60,000 will be to give the Corporation a solid and permanent job? —Yes. 63. For the total expenditure of £104,000, what power do you expect will be delivered at the power-house at Dunedin? —2,130 electrical horse-power. Then, in addition to that, the Corporation have 900-horse power in steam. That makes a total of 3,030-horse power available for distribution and running the trams. 64. Does that £104,000 include the construction of what is known as street feeders? —No, it simply means delivering the current into the distributing-station. 65. You have told us that from the Lee system you expect to get 2,130-horse power, and added to that you have 900-horse power from your steam-power, making a total of 3,030-horse power? —Yes. 66. What is the actual horse-power required for tramway purposes, including power and lighting? —580-horse power. » 67. Assuming that to be correct, that leaves available 1,550-horse power, and 900-horse power from the steam-power? —That leaves the Corporation with 2,450-horse power to dispose of for public or private purposes. 68. So that proves paragraph 7 of the petition, "That the Corporation tramways," &c. ? -Yes. 69. Paragraph 8: "That it is intended to sell and dispose of all surplus electrical energy thus introduced into the City of Dunedin to public and private consumers for power, lighting, and all other available purposes." Do you know whether that is the intention of the Council? —Yes. 70. Now, I want to ask you a few questions about the probable demand for power in the City of Dunedin ? —Well, the actual amount of power that is available in Dunedin at the present time, including steam, gas, water, and oil is 2,680-horse power —steam, 1,745; gas, 905; water, 25; and oil, 5. 71. Take the case of gas-engines: Is it a fact that as a rule these engines are only worked intermittently?— The bulk of the engines employed are worked intermittently —that is to say, you would not require to be in a position to supply 2,680-horse power, but probably only one-third of that. The bulk of those who use the power are in a very small -way. They are butchers, coffee and spice works, aerated-water factories, and so on. There is a number of these establishments that would not take electrical power. For instance, sawmills use their own refuse —shavings and sawdust—for raising steam, and there are other industries such as soap-works that would not
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require electricity at all. Then there are foundries that have steam-hammers where they would require to have steam for that purpose, if the rest of their works were running electrically, so that the actual amount used in Dunedin will probably be about 1,200-horse power. 72. You think that is a fair estimate? —Yes, I should say that is the actual amount that would be used at present. The amount that is available in Dunedin is 2,680-horse power, out of which I estimate that 1,760 brake horse-power is actually in use. Then, of those who could use the electrical power there would be left 1,200-horse power, always supposing that the proprietors were prepared to throw out their gas and steam engines and plant. 73. So that, from what you tell us, any likely demand for electrical energy could easily be supplied from the works the Corporation are now constructing?— Yes, always supposing that people are prepared to take it. 74. Do you think it is likely that there would be a largely increased demand for electrical power in Dunedin in future?—No, not a largely increased demand. The demand will be for small powers. Any one opening up a new business would put up his works outside of Dunedin, because no one would think of taking up expensive land in Dunedin for starting a new manufacturing business. Those using the large powers in Dunedin now are very few. 75. Where is the manufacturing centre of the district—is it Dunedin or the Kaikorai Valley and Green Island localities?— The Kaikorai Valley and Green Island district. Another point is that we get remarkably cheap coal outside of Dunedin. The lignite is very cheap, and small coal or dross is mostly burned in steam-boilers. 76. Paragraph 9: "That your petitioners have already under statutory authority expended and are now expending very large sums of money in the various municipal schemes already referred to in the interests and for the benefit of the ratepayers and citizens of the City of Dunedin." You have stated that the tramways are to cost about £300,000, and the city also possesses gasworks?— Yes. 77. What is the cost in round figures ?—They cost about £160,000. 78. So that between electrical works, the steam plant, and gasworks there is over a quarter of a million of Corporation properties, in addition to £300,000 for the tramways, directly affected in this question of electrical energy?— Yes. 79. Now, I want to ask you one or two questions as to the supply. You have told us that your estimate of the cost of the power available is £104,000, and that is for 2,130 electrical horse-power delivered at the present power-station at Dunedin ? —Yes. 80. On what amount of water do you base these calculations? —On forty heads. 81. You assume that there are forty heads available in the Lee Stream? —Yes. 82. State how you arrive at that? —In the Lee Stream I estimate that the minimum drought yield would be twenty-five heads. From the Deep Stream we propose to cut a race and brine: in another ten heads. That is thirty-five heads. Then from a storage reservoir five heads. That brings it up to forty heads, which would generate 3,000-horse power, from which I have deducted one-third for loss, leaving about 2,000-horse power for the Dunedin station. 83. The actual gaugings show fifty heads? —No, twenty-eight heads at Lee Stream, seven heads in the Fortification Creek, which is also taken into the same supply. That is thirty-five heads. Then if they had ten heads at Deep Stream it would give forty-five, and five heads from the surface would make it fifty heads. 84. But you have taken a conservative estimate and assumed that there would be only forty heads? —Yes, it is always safer to do that. 85. Dr. Findlay.] Have you the rights to the Deep Stream? —I understand that they have an offer for ten heads. I understand that a man has ten heads of water and that he has offered to sell his rights to the Corporation. 86. Mr. MacGregor.] So you assume that the minimum supply available is forty heads? —I gauged the Lee Stream myself some months ago after a period of dry weather, and found there were forty-nine heads in it. There is a permanent gauging-station there. The forty-nine heads was without the Fortification Creek supply, which would give another ten heads at the time of gauging. 87. So that your figures are evidently very much on the safe side? —Yes. 88. Then, apart from Lee Stream and its tributary, the Fortification and Deep Stream, the Corporation has secured certain rights on the Taieri River? —Yes, it was at my suggestion they originally took them up. 89. From that source alone what power is available? —You are perfectly safe in estimating that they would get 2,000-horse power from that. My gauging gave three hundred heads of water. 90. And would the cost of harnessing this Taieri River be very large in proportion to that power? —No. I have not gone carefully into the estimate of what it would cost. 91. And could the same transmission-line be made available?— Yes, it is only a mile down the river from the proposed dam. 92. So that the present transmission-line could carry the additional power from the Taieri? --Yes, supposing it was made of a size necessary to take the current. 93. Dr. Findlay.] You would not require to have an initial generating-station? —No. 94. Mr. MacGregor.] I do not wish in any way to belittle the Waipori Falls scheme, but from what you tell us there are two essential points of difference between the respective schemes. It appears that the Waipori Falls transmission-line will be almost double that of the Lee Stream ? —Just about; it is close on thirty miles. 95. And you tell us, further, that the Lee Stream is a permanent solid job, while we are told by Mr. Duncan that the Waipori water-race is carried for some miles on a wooden fluming. T need not ask you whether that is a permanent undertaking? —The fluming will last for probably eight or ten years.
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96. And a tunnel through solid rook will last for all time? —One is more permanent than the other. That goes without saying. 97. Paragraph 10: "That it would be unfair and prejudicial to the best interests of the citizens of Dunedin to allow to any private person or company such large and undefined powers of entering upon and breaking up the streets of the city and otherwise, as are proposed to be conferred by the Bill in question, for the purpose of competing with your petitioners in the supply of light or power by electricity or otherwise to the ratepayers of Dunedin." I just want you to state as shortly as you can for the information of the Committee what you as an engineer consider the objections to allowing a private company the access to the city that is proposed to be given? —Mechanically, of course, the objection is that you would have two city distributing-mains. In the first place you have the telegraph-lines and the telephone-lines, and you are going to have your return circuit for the telephone-lines, and you have your tramway overhead conductors. You are proposing to put your own distributing-lines in, and it will be objectionable to have additional lines. lam quite sure that if the Waipori power were brought into Dunedin it should be taken by the Corporation, and the current distributed over their own mains. I think a duplicate system in a town like Dunedin is objectionable. You might just as well have another set of tramways and another set of gasworks with power to cross each other. 98. In your opinion, then, I take it that you consider it highly inexpedient to allow a second company to come into the city and distribute power and light in the way proposed ? —The whole of these services are now carried on by the Corporation, and I am speaking, of course, entirely from the point of view of a municipal engineer. 99. Is there any real force in the suggestion of Mr. Duncan in the course of his evidence that the manufacturers of Dunedin are gasping for this power?- -I have no doubt the manufacturers of Dunedin will take the power if it is made cheap enough, but only a certain amount of it. 100. All the figures you have given us are compiled, I suppose, from the best available sources? —Yes, every manufacturer using power has been canvassed in order to find out what he is using, so that we could get an accurate estimate before us. 101. Mr. Buddo.] In whose interest? —The Corporation simply sent to each place and I have a list of them. 102. Dr. Findlay.] You are fortunate enough to be a shareholder in the Waipori Falls Company? —Yes. 103. How long ago did you take up your shares —this year or last year? —I was at the company's office one day when they were talking about the shares, and they said, " You ought to take up shares." 104. At what time? —I dare say it was a year ago. 105. Did you pay for them? —They took care of that. They are called up to 165., and I paid the calls. 106. At the time you became a shareholder did you anticipate that the power would be admitted into Dunedin ? —I took up the shares because it was considered that as engineer I should take an interest in the work. 107. You took up shares because you were engineer for the company, not because you thought they were worth anything —not because you thought it was a proper and reasonable investment, but simply because you happened to be engineer of the company ?—Yes, that is so. 108. And I suppose your fees covered the amount of the shares? —Yes, and a good deal more. 109. A good deal more than you paid for the shares, and now you are here to give evidence against the company. " I have pleasure in expressing the opinion that jout rights are extremely valuable, the power available being almost incredible for the length of the race, while the cost per horse-power for hydraulic work is extremely small. lam also able to affirm that I know of no hydraulic power in New Zealand within such easy distance of a large centre like Dunedin which will come anywhere near that available from your rights and at the same cost." Did you write those words? —No. 110. Can you saj r how they happen to appear under your name in the company's prospectus? —Yes, that report was written by my assistant, I was not in the colony at the time. 111. Were you paid for this report? —No. 112. Did you ever disavow it? —No. 113. You knew that this report was being used for the purpose of getting money from people and you never took an opportunity of disavowing it? —No. 114. Is that statement true? —Yes. 115. Then it is within your knowledge and judgment that there is no hydraulic power in New Zealand within such easy distance of a large centre like Dunedin such as is owned by the Waipori Falls Company? —Yes, I think it is a very valuable power. It is in contiguity with that of the city. Most of the powers in New Zealand are far removed from the large centres of population. 116. You say the total amount of energy which the Lee Stream will yield to Dunedin is 2,130 electrical horse-power. What do you refer to? —That is the water-power to be derived from the present works. 117. What electrical horse-power will reach the power-house in Dunedin? —2,130-horse power. 118. From what source? —The present works. 119. They are the only works at present contemplated by the Corporation?—No, the Corpora tion holds rights over the Taieri River. 120. I take it that the only present works undertaken by the Corporation are at Lee Stream? —They are the only ones in operation. 121. Then, all that power will be required for the tramways? —No. 122. If they installed the lighting system, what amount of power would be required, do you know? —No.
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123. Do you know the amount required in Wellington ?--No. 124. Would it not be the most of what is left from your works? —I do not know. 125. As far as your evidence is concerned, it may be said that the whole of the 2,130-horse power would be absorbed for the tramways and electric light in Dunedin ? —lf they go in for electric light in Dunedin. 126. You cannot say that if they have an electric-lighting system and a tramways system it will not absorb the whole of this 2,130-horse power? —No. 127. Have you considered what the demand will be if power were made available in Dunedin at half the cost of steam? —I have already stated that Ido i.ot think the requirements in Dunedin will be very large. I think any large requirements will be outside the town, not inside. 128. Have you considered what the demand would be for power if you could produce it al half the cost of steam?- -No. 129. Now, as to the question of whether establishments requiring power will start in Dunedin, I am told that there are 100 acres of land —chiefly Harbour Board reclamations —within the city boundaries which are available for factories and establishments of that nature. Will you contradict that? —I do not know the area. 130. If these factories are not going to find domiciles, how are they to grow up in the city? — Do you think people would start places like Mcl.eod's soap-works in the city again? 131. But you make other things besides soap down there? —Yes. 132. Is it not your opinion, and the opinion of most people down there, that Dunedin is going to be the manufacturing centre of the colony? —I do not think it will be a more manufacturing city than any other place. Only the other day the question was raised and repudiated by Christchurch, which showed that that city had more manufactures than we had. 133. Can you state the comparison between Dunedin and Wellington? —No. 134. You have lost your position as a distributing centre and your only chance is to make it a manufacturing centre ? —That is so. 135. Can you suggest that land is so cheap outside the citj'-boundaries that manufacturers would go outside rather than pay an expensive price for land? —They are going outside of it. Several firms have gone out of it already. 136. Are they not in the town as well? —Yes; but as the industries increase they will go out of town. 137. Are there any other firms than those you have referred to? —I cannot recall any, but it shows the trend of business. 138. With regard to the Waipori system, you think the city should have acquired the Waipori rights? —I have not said so. 139. If you have not said so, will you say it now? —I do not see any harm in it, if the Corpo ration had acquired them. I should think it would have been an advantageous thing to acquire all the water-rights about for future use. 140. For what purpose do you think the City Corporation should acquire the Waipori rights -is it not because you want to acquire the power ? —lt is as well to acquire this power if it is not too costly. 141. You told Mr. MacGregor that reports had been sent in by various engineers—Messrs. Orchardson, Goodman, and Rodgers —on Lee Stream? —Yes. 142. Have you also seen the report of Mr. Noble Anderson? —No. 143. Do you know the report?--I have seen extracts from it. 144. What is its purport? Did he not condemn the Lee Stream? —I do not tliink so —1 cannot say. 145. Was it not the purpose of the City Council to work the Taieri first, and was that not abandoned? —I think they decided to go on with the Lee first. 146. You first recommended the Taieri? —I do not think I reported on it. 147. Did not the Corporation first decide to go on with the Taieri system? —I do not know. 148. Did you not see it in the newspapers? —I do not remember. 149. Most people read the newspapers? —Very few people remember all they read in the papers. 150. Did you ever in the course of your very busy life have time to read the Wellington Post, the Dunedin Evening Star, and the Otago Daily Times, where we have it stated that the Taieri scheme was condemned and the Lee Stream scheme was chosen as the source of supply? —I dare say I read that, but cannot remember. 151. You do not know whether the Taieri scheme was first adopted and Lee Stream scheme condemned? —I do not know —I had nothing to do with it. AU I had to do was to take up the rights of these two places and the business passed out of my hands. 152. Mr. MacGregor.] There is one question that you have been pressed about —the report in the prospectus of the company. You say that the report was not signed by you at all, but was prepared by your assistant while you were out of the colony? —Yes. 153. The assistant is now, I understand, in the employment of the Waipori Falls Company? —Yes. 154. Were you asked if you could not suggest a reason why you made the statement that you thought the Corporation would be wise to acquire the rights of the Waipori Falls as well as the others: could you not give as a reason that it might be wise to prevent private companies exploiting the public afterwards? —It might be so. 155. You were asked to give instances of people going outside the city. Is it not a fact that Messrs. Ross and Glendining's woollen-mills are outside of the city, and also the Mosgiel woollenmills?—Yes, and the ironworks at Burnside and the refrigerating-works and chemical-works on Kaikorai Stream. 156. Is it not a fact that most of the industries are going outside the city?— Yes.
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157. In your opinion, that process will go on increasing ?—Yes, it is almost sure to do so. 158. Mr. Herries.] You are thoroughly acquainted with both the Waipori and the Lee Stream? —Yes. 159. Supposing both were available to the Corporation, what would be the cheapest way to get electrical power into Dunedin—from the Waipori or the Lee Stream?—lt is a difficult question to answer. 160. Well, as far as hydraulic works are concerned? —The hydraulic works on Lee Stream will cost more than at Waipori,' but they are a different class of work—they are a permanent work. 161. Which has the better supply of water? —I do not think there is much difference in the area of the watersheds. I think the Waipori watershed is one you could rely on for getting a better supply in proportion than the Lee Stream, because there is higher country at the back of it and more snow. What is the distance between Dunedin and the two sources of power ?—One is thirty miles and the other fourteen. 163. Which is the furthest line? —Waipori is about thirty miles. 164. So far as your knowledge goes, the Waipori has a better supply of water? —Yes, because it is at a higher elevation. 165. And it is more likely to be constant? —It will be a larger supply. Ido not know what the difference is. That could only be decided over a term of years. 166. You could not give an estimate as to which would be the cheaper way of getting electrical power into Dunedin? —No, I can only speak of the hydraulic works. 167. Mr. BuddoY] In your opinion, could the steam-power at present in use in the city be substituted more economically by water-power? —I should think it could. 168. In your opinion, the electrical power would be cheaper? —Yes, cheaper than steam. 169. It would follow that your advice to the City Council would be to substitute waterpower for steam-power ? —No, because the present plant there is a stand-by plant. Ido not think it would be safe to run a tramway service or anything else unless you had a stand-by, because if anything happens everything stops. It would be very useful to have the steam-power if we were supplying either light or other power. If you were supplying power to a large firm and your power stopped the firm might have very important work in hand and would be down on you. 170. Are your water-rights over the Taieri such as can be used without infringing the rights of anybody else? —I think the Taieri County Council has the right to a portion of the power. 171. Would a competing company in a sale of power not prevent a monopoly? —The Corporation are the citizens, and if they cannot get power at proper rates they would put out their representatives. 172. In your opinion no city can continue a monopoly, I suppose? —No, because the citizens are their own consumers. 173. It could be commenced, but not continued? —That is so. 174. Referring to your statement that at tlie present time there is an inclination on the part of the promoters of industries to go outside the city boundaries, have you thought how far that would affect the supply of labour by taking the factories away from the source of labour ? —With the present system of issuing workmen's tickets for travelling purposes, I do not think that would affect it much. Besides, the workmen and employees live near the works at Burnside; and if you take as an example Messrs. Ross and Glendining's mill, you will find there is quite a township there. 175. Mr. Fowlds.] When do you expect the Corporation to complete their scheme so as to have 2,130 electrical horse-power from Lee Stream? —In about eighteen months. 176. The works are going on at the present time? —Yes. 177. I understood you to say that some one had failed in connection with them? —Yes, that is about three months ago. It is now in the hands of the Corporation, and is being done by day labour. 178. I understand that one of your principal objections to the Waipori Company coming into Dunedin was the duplication of the wires for distribution of the power ? —Yes, that appears to be the main objection. There is an objection in giving free access to all the streets to another body. William G. T. Goodman, Electrical Expert (Noyes Brothers), examined. (No. 4.) 179. Mr. MacGregor.] You have had considerable experience in connection with electrical works in different parts of the world, I think? —Yes, during the last eighteen years. 180. You are at present electrical engineering expert for the City Corporation of Dunedin?— That is so. 181. I think it is some time since you examined the Waipori River and Lee Stream and Taieri Stream?—l went into the matter some three years ago, and recommended that the Lee Stream and Taieri scheme be adopted. 182. You have been here while Mr. Hay was examined?- -Yes, most of the time. 183. You have heard the evidence he gave as to the number of electrical horse-power that would be delivered from the Lee Stream under the scheme at present in hand? —Yes. 184. Will you be good enough to tell us what the result of your calculations on the same point has been? —Taking the same quantity of water I find there will be 2,098 electrical horsepower available for distribution at the power-house in Dunedin. 185. And out of that we are told that 580-horse power are required for the electrical tramway system, including both lighting and power ?—5BO-horse power would be required for the tramway system and for arc-lighting the main streets —that is, for sixty arc lamps. 186. And we understand that you are at present running the trams in connection with a stand-by steam plant? —Yes.
W. G. T, GOODMAN.]
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187. What number of horse-power can you develop from the steam plant? —Close on nine hundred. 188. 2,098 plus 900 —we may take it that 3,000-horse power is the total energy that will be available in Dunedin when the present Lee Stream scheme is completed ? —Yes. 189. That is apart from the Taieri River? —Yes. 190. Out of that 580-horse power is required for the tramways, which leaves, according to your figures, 2,420-horse power available for outside customers, public and private? —That is if you include the available steam plant. The steam plant might be used for tramways and streeilighting, in which case 2,098 electrical horse-power would be wholly available for outside customers. 191. Can you give us the probable amount required for street-lighting in Dunedin? —Princes Street, George Street, Castle Street, and a portion of High Street would take about 60-horse power, while the amount required for the remainder would be very small, as the City Council will not go to the expense of lighting all streets electrically in view of the fact that the streets art all lit by gas from the Corporation Gasworks. 192. The city at present is lighted for the most part by gas? —Yes. 193. And, of course, by incandescent lamps? —Yes. 194. You have heard Mr. Hay's evidence as to the probable demand for power in Dunedin. do you agree generally with his statements with regard to the power at present in use? —Yes. 195. He has told us that in his opinion it would be a fair thing to estimate, say, 1,200 electrical horse-power as at present demanded, assuming that all the manufacturers were to throw out their present power and substitute electricity? —Yes. 196. Is there any likelihood of that happening? —It is very doubtful. It varies in a great many places and is according to the nature of the industries. It is hardly probable that they would take 1,200-horse power. 197. Then, on his general conclusions, you agree with him in regard to the probable demand for power ? —Yes. 198. I want you to tell us as shortly as you can what you estimate the total cost of the work at the Lee Stream works, including transmission-line, transformers, distributing-station, &c. ? — About £104,000, which expenditure the City Council have made themselves liable for. 199. That is divided into £60,000 for hydraulic works and £44,000 for electrical works? —Yes. 200. To refer again for a moment to the demand for power, is it a fact that in estimating the cost to Dunedin, the ratio of power-cost to wages-cost in manufacturing is very small? —With the present industries, that is so. 201. We may take it that in Dunedin the wages-cost is comparatively high, and that the cost of fuel is comparatively low —that is, cheap coal ? —Yes, that is so. 202. Assuming a manufacturer to have a 20-horse power gas-engine on his premises, would it be right to take it for granted that he would use anything like 20 electrical horse-power continuously? —No, unless he had the gas-engine working continuously fully loaded. If he had an electrical motor he would switch the power on and off as required, whereas with a gas-engine he would let it run light during short periods when no power was required, to obviate the trouble of restarting. 203. I understand that gas-engines are largely used in Dunedin? —Yes. 204. The reticulation mains within the city are to be put partly underground, I understand? —Yes. 205. What part of the mains are to be put underground? —Along Princes Street and George Street, from Market Street to St. David Street, along High Street from Jail Street to Manse Street, and along Stuart Street from Jail Street to York Place. 206. So we may take it that in the main thoroughfares the Corporation mains have to be underground ? —Yes. 207. Does this plan fairly represent the cross-section of George Street and Princes Street, showing the number of mains and cables there [Plans producedij? —As regards the electrical mains, yes. 208. Have you taken out the figures to show what is the probable cost of electrical energy delivered at the power-station in Dunedin ? —Yes, taking it on a twenty-four-hours basis it will cost £4 12s. per horse-power per annum. 209. Mr. Herries.] Is that the cost to the city, including interest on capital? —Yes, interesc, depreciation, and all charges. 210. The Chairman.] Is that for the Lee Stream scheme? —Yes. 211. Mr. MacGregor:] That is based on the estimate of 2,098-horse power delivered in Dunedin? —Yes. 212. You know as a matter of fact that we have had an offer from the Waipori Company to deliver 500-horse power for tramway purposes at our sub-station at the rate of £7 10s. per electrical horse-power per annum; would that be the total cost or would something have to be added to that before it could be made available at your sub-station for tramway purposes? —No, it would not be the total cost, as the charges of converting would have to be added thereto. These charges would amount to £3 4s. per horse-power per annum, being the cost of operating converters, battery, &c, including interest and depreciation. 213. Would the £3 4s. have to be added to the £4 I2s. ?—No, that is included. 214. Dr. Findlay.] Then, if the Waipori Company were permitted to bring power into Dunedin, and you wanted another 500-horse power to assist the power you have already got, you would still require this £3 4s. of extra expenses ? —lf the company supplied 500-horse power only the £3 4s. per horse-power would have to be added to their price per horse-power, but if they supplied 1,000-horse power the amount to be added to their price per horse-power would be slightly
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more than half of £3 45., as the total conversion charges are practically a fixed item and have to be debited evenly over the total power supplied. 215. Supposing you wanted that 500-horse power for the purpose of tramways, you would not require this expense of £3 4s. ? —You say if we wanted 500-horse power —for what purpose ? 216. Your tramways. Assume that you are getting your power from Lee Stream and it is deficient, and you require 500-horse power in addition: could that not be served to you without the expense to you of the £3 4s. that you mentioned? —Yes, if it had not to be converted and was to be used for general purposes, but if required for tramways the £3 4s. would have to be added. 217. You told us that the estimated cost to the City Corporation will be £4 12s. per horsepower per annum for twenty-four hours a day? —Yes. 218. What is the average cost of steam-power in Dunedin as compared with that? —That i.; very hard to say. 219. Have you not estimated that? —It is costing the tramway £29 per annum for seventeen hours a day. This cost is per electrical hoise-power, and includes all charges, such as rent, management, iuterest, sinking fund, and depreciation, in addition to fuel and water, &c. 220. And the estimate for electrical power was for twenty-four hours? —Yes; but when our plant is fully loaded the cost will be reduced to £20 per annum. 221. Against £4 12s. for electrical horse-power for the twenty-four hours? —That is so; but you must not confuse the figures- those I quote only relate to tramway electrical power. There is no other modern up-to-date steam plant in Dunedin. A proper steam plant designed with condensers would reduce the cost considerably. 222. How much less? —That is hard to say, as it depends on various conditions. Say, 20 per cent. less. 223. That would still leave over £15 for seventeen hours as compared with £4 12s. for twenty-four hours? —Yes. 224. Now, if a power costing less than one-fourth of steam were available in Dunedin in unlimited supply, would it not call into existence manufactories which are not there at present? — I should say so, to a certain extent. 225. You have familiarised yourself with the literature on the subject of electrical energy and the industries which electrical energy have called into existence? —You mean such as the manufacture of calcium-carbide? 226. Yes. Is there any reason why that should not find a home in Dunedin? —No. 227. What energy would a calcium-carbide factory require?—lt depends upon the output. 228. Supposing you get such a factory started in Dunedin for supplying the market of New Zealand, am I wrong in suggesting that it would require one-horse power per ton per annum to produce it? —No. 229. Would it be extravagant to suggest that such a factory would require at least 2,000-horse power ? —That, of course, I could not say; it would depend on the output. 230. Do you think it would be out of the way, looking at New Zealand and its possible growth, to say that 2,000-horse power would be required for a carbide-factory ?—I would not contradict anything based on assumption. 231. What other factories do you think might be called into existence?--Some others. 232. Give us a few? —I cannot call them to mind just now. 233. Could you give me an illustration of how many have been called into existence around Niagara in consequence of the development of electrical energy there ?—Niagara is slightly different from Dunedin, you must admit. 234. Well, you say you have a steam-power of 900? —Yes. 235. You have told the Committee that it is costing you £20 per annum, whereas electrical energy will cost £4 12s. ? —Yes. 236. Will you continue to use steam-power when electrical energy is available?—lt would hardly be economical commercially to do so. 237. What would jou do with your engines?— The plant will be kept as a stand-by. 238. Then, under ordinary normal conditions your 900-horse power will be dormant?— That is the intention; but it could be brought into use during peak loading hours. 239. It was put by Mr. Hay that it was well to have a stand-by in that way, because accidents might happen ? —Yes. 240. Do you know that in many towns in America, where more than one electrical company is allowed to take power, there is between the two companies an agreement that in the event of an accident the power of one company is available to the other? —Yes. 241. Is that not done in New York?— Yes, and in many other places. 242. So that you would not require a stand-by of steam if such an arrangement was made between the Corporation and the Waipori Company. I understand that you approve of the adoption of the Taieri and Lee Stream scheme? —Yes. 243. Did you make your own estimate of the cost of the hydraulic work?— No. 244. Who supplied those estimates ?—The City Council. 245. Can you tell me whether the estimates supplied to you then have not been increased? In point of fact, am I right in saying that the estimates supplied and on which your recommendation proceeded have been falsified to such an e;rtent as to require quadrupling?—No, you are not right 246. Well, to what extent ?—I do not know that any of the estimates have been falsified 247. What had the original estimates to be increased by?— About double; but it is a different scheme entirely. In the first scheme we had miles of races, which would cost a considerable amount for maintenance. Tn the present scheme we have a tunnel, on which the cost of maintenance is practically nil.
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248. Did your estimate proceed on the assumption that the amount of hydraulic work was half of what in point of fact it turned out to be?— Yes. 249. Would you have recommended the Lee Stream scheme against the Waipori scheme if you had known what the hydraulic work was going to cost you?—l do not wish to say anything about the Waipori scheme. 250. Mr. MacGregor.] I understand you to say that any power that would be delivered, as suggested, by the Waipori Company to your power-house for tramway purposes must be converted there by your machinery? —Yes. 251. You told us that by the use of condensers you could decrease the cost of your steampower by some 20 per cent. ? —Yes. 252. And as regards your former report as to the merits of the scheme, I think the fact now is that the present estimate of £104,000 involves bringing in about twice the amount of water of the original scheme?— Not twice the amount, but forty heads instead of thirty heads. 253. Mr. Berries.] Have you any knowledge of the Waipori scheme? —I know it, and have been over the works. 254. Did you ever report on it? —I reported on the electrical side of it. 255. You told Dr. Findlay that you did not care to say anything about it, but the Committee desires to get what; information it can, aud the two sides to this case seems to be hostile? —I am not hostile. 256. Which would be the cheapest scheme to bring into Dunedin so far as the electrical side of the question is concerned ?—lt depends on the relative power. The Waipori scheme is a very good scheme. 257. You have been over both schemes? —Yes. 258. And, as an electrical engineer, which would you advise, supposing the Taieri were coming into the scheme and both the powers were open to Dunedin? —That depends entirely upon the amount of power one is likely to require. From an electrical standpoint, the only difference is that one is about twice the distance in transmission of the other. 259. Does that make it more expensive? —Yes —in the transmission. 260. How much difference is there in the cost of the line? —It depends upon what you have to spend in copper. 261. Which has the better water-power ? -The Waipori has the most water. 262. Could you say which would be the cheaper to deliver the power to Dunedin ? —I should have to go into figures to take that out. 263. You could not give the Committee an idea of which would be the cheaper scheme? —No; I should say there would not be much difference in them. 264. Mr. Major.] I was somewhat concerned about your net cost of running at present? — Our present cost of running is due to working about half the system. When we have the system fully loaded it will come down to about half that amount. 265. Mr. Buddo.] As an electrical engineer, I take it that you would necessarily advise a scheme subject to the cost of transmission ; what would be the loss on the transmission of, say, fifteen miles? -3 per cent, to 5 per cent. 266. I assume that as an electrical engineer you have estimated the loss? —Yes —4.7 per cent. 267. I understood you to say in your former evidence that you recommended the Lee Stream, plus the Taieri, as the best for the Council to adopt? —Yes. 268. Did you take into the question the drainage area? —I based my calculations on the figures supplied for the water and the hydraulic works. 269. You did not take it from the altitude —from the hydraulic point of view? —I only went into the electrical side of it. 270. If you had the electrical system at work, would you recommend the steam-power at present in force? —Do you mean keeping it at work? 271. Yes? —I would recommend that it be kept as a stand-by for the city. 272. As you are representing the Council as an electrical expert, would you give the Committee an idea of what would be the chief objections to duplicating the wires along the streets? — They are mostly alone upon aesthetic grounds; technically there is no objection. At the present time we have telegraph and telephone wires overhead. 273. Apart from the fact that there might be some danger through the touching of the wires, would there be any danger in the duplication of any system throughout the city ? —There is very little danger in connection with the duplication. The danger with one set of mains is so small that the risk would scarcely be added to if the mains were duplicated. 274. Dr. Findlay.] You said that 580-horse power would be required for the tramway and for such lighting as is at present proposed ?—Yes. 275. What surplus do you apprehend will be available for industrial purposes in Dunedin from your present scheme? —2,098-horse power, less 580. 276. That would leave you 1,518-horse power? —Yes. 277. Do you know the horse-power required to run an electrical-lighting scheme in Wellington —it is 1,500-horse power? —Yes, I am informed that is the peak load. 278. So that if you instal the electric-light system in Dunedin you will require probably 1,800 electrical horse-power? —I do not think you can put Dunedin on the same footing as Wellington as regards the demand for electric light. Wellington is altogether a different city from Dunedin. The public and Government buildings alone are sufficient to support a generatingstation. 279. In Dunedin you have gas and in Wellington we have gas. You may or may not bring yourselves up to date by having electric light in your homes; but if you did, what do you think would be the power required to carry that out ? —lt is very hard to say.
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280. Would it not be a very large proportion of that surplus of 1,500-horse power you referred to ? —Yes, a fair proportion; but at the same time the power-load does not take place at the same time as the maximum lighting-load. Frank Oakden examined. (No. 5.) 281. Dr. Findlay. j] What are you? —I am general manager of the Milburn Lime and Cement Company. 282. Have you any qualifications as a civil engineer? —Yes, and I was formerly partner of the firm of Oakden and Begg, civil engineers, Dunedin. 283. How many 3'ears did you practice civil engineering? —Ten years. 284. Are you connected with the Waipori Falls Company? —I am chairman of directors of the Waipori Falls Company. I must say that I have been connected with it since its inception as a company, but had no connection with the previous syndicate. 285. Is there any intention that you are aware of to sell the rights of your company to any syndicate or other company if this Bill passes? —Absolutely none. When I was invited to join the board I clearly laid it down that we were to be strictly a commercial concern, and with regard to selling I pointed out that the previous syndicate had from time to time approached the City Corporation. 286. For what purpose? —For the purpose of selling, and I said that if I had anything to do with it it should be definitely with a view to starting a commercial concern to supply Dunedin. and especially the industries of Dunedin, with electrical power. 287. As chairman of directors you would have to consider the question of finance; what prospect of financing the company will you have if the Bill passes ? —There is every probability — indeed, certainty —of the whole of the capital being found in New Zealand. With regard to that I may say that some few months ago the board was approached by a syndicate at Home with an offer to take up the balance of our shares —80,000 shares —but I resented it on the ground that if it were done it would involve the head office being fixed in London, and the control of the company would pass to London. 288. With that view did the other directors concur? —Yes. 289. And you expect to finance the whole of the thing in New Zealand if this Bill passes?--Yes, that is so. 290. If this Bill does not pass what will be the effect upon your enterprise? —It will clearly prevent applications being made for our shares. I may say that from first to last there has been a difficulty—possibly through not having brokers —in raising the capital, and it has resulted in the members of the board themselves getting their friends to subscribe, and obtaining capital in that way —in fact, they have acted as brokers themselves, but without commission, of course. 291. Then, you got the full advantage of the subscribed capital without having to pay brokerage ? —Yes. 292. What is the total amount of money already spent by the company in, upon, or in connection with the work? —We have actually expended £15,600 to date. 293. How much have you committed yourselves to pay for contract work yet undone? —In addition to that I think about £14,000 or £15,000 under contract. 294. So that you have spent or are committed to over £30,000 of money? —That is so. 295. I want to make quite clear the position of those who were your predecessors in title. Mr. Duncan told us that 5,000 shares were given to the promoters? —Five thousand or 5,500 were reserved for the promoters. Two hundred shares were to be given to each subscriber of 500 shares. That was to start the company. 296. The total amount of loading amounts to what? —5 per cent., or £5,500. 297. That was to those who owned these rights? —Yes. 298. The shares have been increased in number up to 100,000? —Yes. 299. So that the promoters have 5,500 shares in the company? —They have less than that. 300. Less than that for their rights? —Yes. 301. It has been suggested that even if Dunedin be excluded from this Bill you have an amply profitable field for the use of your power outside in the area of supply? —That is not so In the first place, the success of the company is dependent on what we call the high-loading factor. Our object, I take it, must be, as business men, to get the business centre to commence operations with, and gradually to extend to districts where there will be less power required as we are able to extend. I might mention that in starting the company we first ascertained whether the rights were correct. The next was to put on three engineers to report on it, so that we had two lawyers and three engineers. The next question was to find out the probable demand there would be within the territory we proposed to operate in. This was accomplished by sending out schedules which did not in an} 7 way bind either the company or the applicants. 302. Applicants for what? —Applicants for power, and so forth, to enable us to ascertain if a large quantity of power would be used in the area of supply. The total applications amounted to, I think, 3,600-horse power. That was including the City of Dunedin and the area outside. This showed us that we had the necessary demand for our power--that we had the market —and as business men, the next questiof before us was to ascertain the cost at which we could supply it. The next step was to get the best man we could obtain from the United States to advise us, and we got him, because I considered the States the home of long transmission in connection with electrical power. I had an opportunity of visiting the United States in 1900 and 1901 and saw the marvellous strides that had been made. Knowing the effect of electrical power upon industries there, I concluded that it would have a similar effect upon the industries of Dunedin. It was more with a view of improving my interest in the Milburn Company and other industries, than of getting any advantage from the electrical power, that I joined the company.
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303. You say you asked for applications for power and got them for 3,600-horse power? —Yes. 304. Have you considered the number of horse-power you could deliver to Dunedin by means of your present scheme? —Yes. That became the electrifal engineer's duty to report to the board. 305. What is it? —Six-thousand-horse power complete. 306. That will be the total power you will h&ve available, not only for Dunedin, but for any other demand within the area of supply? —Yes. It would not be all available for Dunedin; it is not, as a matter of fact. 307. It may be asked, why should you not content yourselves with your first installation, costing you £56,000, and supply the are* outside Dunedin? I want to ask you whether that would be commercially possible? —I should say, distinctly not. The area outside of Dunedin is so scattered that it would involve an enornw.us expenditure for branch transmission-lines, and would end in disaster. 308. What is the radius of the area of supply?—l have not calculated. 309. Say, from Milton to Port Chalmers?—-It would be thirty miles by a breadth of forty miles. It is self-evident that we could not go here, then, and everywhere with the first unit. 310. Then, we may take it that to shut out Dunedin would be to make this enterprise a commercial failure?— Clearly. The whole object of the company, from first to last, has been to supply Dunedin, its suburbs, and the surrounding district.
Saturday, 20th August, 1904. Examination of Frank Oakden continued. (No. 6.) 1. Dr. Findlay.] At the close of yesterday's proceedings you were being examined as to the effect the exclusion of Dunedin from the area of supply would have on your company, and I think you explained that it would be disastrous to the company ? —Yes, for the reason that we must have a main objective. In other words, there must be a large demand from one particular point of the district, and thereafter reticulations or branch lines would be laid. The main feature of the scheme is dependent on the supply to Dunedin, and all our expense has been in connection with supplying Dunedin proper. 2. I will leave it at that. You have given the Committee the detail of demand for power you have already got for the future? —1 think so. 3. From your consideration of the future demand in Dunedin and the surrounding district, can you say whether in your judgment that demand will be enough to absorb all the power obtainable not only from the Waipori Falls and Lee Stream, but from the Taieri as well, if it is harnessed? —I should say so emphatically. I would further state that my opinion is based not only on what I have seen in other parts of the world, but on information we have received from all the capable engineers we have been able to get hold of. Siemens's representative was here some time ago, and was very emphatic on the subject, and I understand Mr. Alio also was emphatic; and other authorities —I am speaking of books now —point to a considerable demand for electricity where it has been made available for new communities. 4. You think the demand will be enough to absorb all the power from the sources I have mentioned ? —More than enough. 5. In reply to a question, Mr. Hay stated yesterday that it was probable the Taieri would be harnessed by the city within the three years allowed by the .4ct. What have you to say to that? — I have no desire to criticise the Lee Stream cr Taieri schemes. I can only say, from what I have read in the newspapers, that the Taieri scheme will be an extremely costly one, and that it was abandoned and the Lee Stream adopted. 6. By whom? —By the Council. 7. Now we come to the question of the cost of the power. You heard Mr. Goodman say yesterday that power might be brought to the power-house at Dunedin at an expense of £4 12s ? — Yes. 8. £4 12s. per horse-power per annum for twenty-four hours. What have you to say to that? —I should prefer that question to be answered by Mr. Stark, as he is more familiar with it. But I am sure Mr. Goodman did not intend to convey to the Committee that they could afford to sell it to the public at that. That was the net estimated cost delivered into the sub-station. 9. Supposing it were delivered at the sub-station for £4 125., what would be the additional cost per horse-power to deliver it in quantities to consumers all over the city? —That is a matter for the electrical engineer to answer. 10. Mr. Hay, in comparing the cost of steam and the cost of electrical power, referred to the price of coal, and stated that there was not much chance of a change from steam to electricity since the business men had the advantage of cheap coal? —I should scarcely take Mr. Hay's opinion on that point. I say it is utterly wrong. He referred to lignite, and the evaporative power of lignite as compared with true coal is so small that the cost of using it is equally great, and true coal is approximately £1 ss. a ton. Our competitors in America and England obtain their coal probably at 9s. and 10s. a ton, while we in Dunedin have to pay £1 ss. The lowest price at which I can buy coal—and I think I get through 6,000 tons a year-is £1 ls. per ton for the smallest screenings of Brunner coal practically. It is there that the statement that cheap coal is available to Dunedin is wrong. 11. Apart from that general statement that cheap coal is not available to Dunedin, can you say that where coal is as cheap as 9s. a ton electrical energy is taken in preference to steam? In Pennsylvania two years ago the cost of coal—Mr. Stark can correct me if lam wrong—was $2J per ton; that would be about 9s. per ton. And, as we all know the enormous amount of
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electrical energy that is supplied in the eastern States of America, if they can afford to supply electrical energy against steam there, we ought to have a bright future before us here where coal is so dear. 12. Mr. Hay also made a comparison between the nature of your flume and the Lee Stream flume or tunnel. What have you to say about his statement?—lt is a graceful compliment of Mr. Hay as the designer of the Lee Stream works, as Mr. Hay happens also to be the designer of our works. He is a personal friend of mine, and Ido not want to say more. 13. Did he design the Waipori works?— The design was based on the Bay Counties Power Company's Works, which are the largest in the world. From the information we obtained from those plans we practically adopted the Waipori system of construction. 14. Under Mr. Hay's advice? —Yes, and assistance. 15. You are satisfied with the fluming you used in connection with the Waipori works? —I am perfectly satisfied, and if we had to do the same thing again we should adopt the same method of construction. 16. What about its temporary nature? —That is not debatable. Every one knows what a wooden fluming is. 17. If it is left would it be true to say that in ten years' time you would have to renew it? —We might have to patch it in, perhaps, five years; but with regard to its permanency of supply, if anything happened to a tunnel it would be a very serious matter. If the tunnel got blocked up it would cause a much longer stop than could possibly happen in the case of a flume. We contend that we have adopted the best plans and followed the best scheme in the world —that of the Bay Counties Company. 18. It has been suggested that your company might not be opposed to the insertion of a purchasing clause in the Bill? —I think it is perfectly reasonable that a purchasing clause should be in the Bill. Circumstances might necessitate the owning of this power by Greater Dunedin, and to leave it to the company absolutely with no possibility of the Corporation acquiring it would be wrong. But, with regard to that, it was suggested, I think, by one member of this House that a purchasing clause should be put in enabling the Council to buy it at any time, and that would be utterly wrong. If such a clause were put in it would seriously hamper us in getting capital, and, more serious still, the Corporation or probable purchasers would naturally seek to obtain the work at the very time they were most depreciated —namely, when we were building up our business —and would therefore urge that we were making a very small profit or none at all. If there is to be a purchasing clause put in, I should say the period should be similar to that in the Hawera Bill —thirty years —which would be a reasonable period from the passage of this Bill. If it is imperative, and is the wish of the House that such a clause should be put in whereby the Corporation might be empowered to acquire it at a short term, fix that term, say, at ninety days after the Bill passes, and let them examine the proposition from first to last; and if they do not acquire it in ninety days, then let them give us a fair chance for twenty-five or thirty years of making the enterprise what we believe it will be. We have never intended to sell our concern to the Corporation nor to any gentlemen on the other side. 19. You say that to frame a purchasing clause in favour of the Corporation would make you practically tenants at will? —I think that is obvious. 20. You suggest that if power is given to the Council to purchase, it should be limited to within ninety days after the passing of the Bill, and, failing that, that you should run for thirty years? —Yes. In the English practice—and they are following suit in America —they tried a short term —the franchise. That was extended to forty-two years, and is now the practice at Home, I think. 21. Can you tell the Committee whether there is a widespread wish in Dunedin for the Waipori scheme to come in ? —That is a difficult question to answer, because we only hear one side. 22. What about the newspaper Press? —The Otago Daily Times and Evening Star have published articles in favour of admitting the power into Dunedin. With regard to the petitions, I only propose to mention one, which is signed by the merchants and manufacturers and heads of business houses in Dunedin, who really are the ratepayers of Dunedin. I say that petition, signed as it is by the bulk of those people, and representing £2,000,000 capital, shows clearly that the scheme has the support and sympathy of the principal men, and the advice I have received satisfies me that we have the people of Dunedin behind vs —at any rate, the ratepayers. Even the City Council themselves had a very memorable meeting,' when Councillor after Councillor got up and expressed his meanness in opposing the Bill. 23. Mr. MacGregor.] You say Councillor after Councillor; how many were there? —I should say there were six at least. 24. Would you be surprised to learn that there were only two? —I should be. 25. Well, there were only two. Can you show me anything in writing to that effect?Although the others may not have expressed themselves as feeling mean, I have reason to believe they did. 26. Are we to take that as a fair estimate of the value of your statements—that two-thirds of them are incorrect? —It may be for you. 27. Andyou seriously say that you are satisfied you have the ratepaj-ers behind you?—l do. 28. I ask you who are the men that you are satisfied are the ratepayers behind you ?—The heads of firms who have vested interests at stake, and who really are the ratepayers of Dunedin. 29. And you mean to say that the City Council are actuated by motives in opposing this Bill? —I do not suggest any motives. 30. Can you suggest any other motive than an honest desire to protect the ratepayers?— Ido not intend to suggest anything; but there are brains outside the City Council in Dunedin. 31. What is your interest in this company?--About seven hundred shares,
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32. So that you have, apart from the philanthropic feeling which Mr. Duncan expressed, a large personal stake in this venture?—l have a large stake for me. 33. And you tell us there has never been the slightest approach cr wish from the Corporation to acquire these rights? —That is so. 34. Have you seen the correspondence between the City Council and Waipori Company ?- It is probable that I drafted the correspondence. The only correspondence I have seen is an offer to sell them power. 35. Was there not an offer by correspondence to purchase the rights of the Waipori Company? —I never heard of such a thing. 36. I suppose you are aware of a letter that was written by your company to the City Council on the 27th February offering to supply water and Pelton wheels ?—There was, and I attended the Council in support of it. 37. Was there any reply?—lf so, there was a very formal reply. 38. This is the letter sent to you as chairman of the company: "Sir, —In reply to your letter of the 27th ultimo, offering to supply water to the Dunedin City Council for the generation of electricity, I have the honour to inform you that the Council cannot see its way to accept your offer. Should your company be prepared to offer its water-rights to the Dunedin City Council, consideration will be given to the offer. —I have, &c, Thos. B. Fairburn, Town Clerk." No reply has been made to that up till now. And yet you state that no offer was made or wish expressed to purchase the water-rights of the company? —No. 39. Now, with regard to the suggested purchasing clause: you think the Corporation might be in such dire straits as to be compelled to purchase?— That is so. 40. Why do you suggest that the City Council might be in dire straits? —The time might come when it would be imperative for it to get all this water-power. I say that it is not unreasonable to request that such a clause be inserted in the Bill. 41. You were good enough to criticize somewhat freely Mr. Hay's evidence. He is an engineer of very much more experience than yourself, is he not? —I have every respect for his opinion. 42. You gave us your idea of the coal business? —I did. 43. Do you suggest that he gave wrong evidence about the price of coal in Dunedin ? —I do, emphatically. 44. You think that he deliberately tried to mislead the Committee? —No, but I thought that, as a civil engineer, he had not considered the matter seriously. I thought, as a manufacturer, that if he had gone into it he would have found out his mistake. England and America are our industrial competitors. 45. Do you seriously suggest that you can compete in Dunedin with English and American manufacturers? —We have done so. For your information, I might state that when we started our business we had only 5 per cent., while now we have 90 per cent, of the trade. 46. But you have a tariff. You said also something about the Taieri scheme, but your only knowledge of that was derived from the newspapers ? —Practically, I have read all the reports from time to time presented by the engineers. 47. Did you hear Mr. Hay give his evidence yesterday? —Yes. 48. He told us that the power from the Taieri could be transmitted to Dunedin by the same transmission-line at a slightly additional expense. 1 asked him about the cost, and he said it would come to £20,000 or £30,000? —I should like to ask whether, after dropping the water from the Lee Stream, it is possible to bring in the Taieri River at such a level as would warrant your bringing it to that station, or whether it would not be better to have a separate generating-station on the Taieri. 49. Do you seriously pit your knowledge of the Taieri- Stream against that of Mr. Hay?- -. Absolutely, no. # 50. Then, why give evidence upon it? —I did not give evidence upon it. I simply read reports about it. We know it is a fact that the Taieri was abandoned. I think it was recommended by Mr. Hay some time ago, but it has been abandoned. 51. Did not the evidence you heard yesterday show that the Taieri scheme has not been abandoned? —I do not know. 52. How many shareholders have you in your company? —I think about a hundred and sixty; I would not be sure. 53. And you have fourteen hundred petitioners? —I have not seen the petitions, except that of the manufacturers. 54. You said yesterday that you had got quite a number of schedules signed ? —Will you allow me to refer again to the question about the Taieri ? On the Goldfields Commission Mr. Christie gave evidence and said it would be a big expenditure, and no one knew whether it would be faced or not. 55. You know, as a matter of fact, after that evidence was taken, that the Waterworks Bill was passed on the 27th November, 1903, giving the Council power to harness the stream after three years? —With certain restrictions. There is no evidence of going on with it. The Taieri Stream was abandoned and the Lee Stream adopted. 56. About those schedules of horse-power that you referred to: have you got them with you? —Mr. Stark has them, and will probably produce them. When I mentioned that 3,600-horse power was applied for, I meant that it was through the whole of the area we proposed to supply. Since all the others outside of the city agreed with the petitions and did not oppose the Bill, I only thought it necessary to bring sufficient evidence of the applications received within the cityboundary, and the schedules here are restricted to within the city-boundary. The form of application and schedule required will be produced by Mr. Stark. There is one with regard to the calcium-carbide factory.
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57. First of all, I want to know whether these documents will be produced or not? —I produce them now. [Produced.] 58. Tlie Chairman _\ These are the applications from Dunedin.? —Yes. 59. Mr. MacGregor.] Where are the other applications?—l instructed the secretary to send the applications for Dunedin proper, as Dunedin proper only was objecting to our advent. 60. You heard Mr. Duncan's evidence about the calcium-carbide? —1 heard him make a statement about it, but I do not know what it was. 61. He stated that this calcium-carbide factory, as far as your company knew, would be established in Dunedin. I want to ask you whether that is correct? —The letter from the calciumcarbide people, which is now in your hands, will explain the whole thing if you will read it. 62. I am asking you whether Mr. Duncan was correct in stating that the proposal was to start a calcium-carbide factory in Dunedin? —It is proposed to establish it in Dunedin. For months we hoped that it would be started at Milburn, but the cost of the railage of true coal to Milburn would be so great that the recommendation is to start it on the foreshore of Dunedin. The letter explains that. 63. The original suggestion was that a company should be formed for the purpose of manufacturing calcium-carbide ? —Where ? 64. In Otago?—No. The Acetylene Gas Company holds the patent rights, and that company was supposed to start in New Zealand on the ground that there was power enough to generate the electricity required, and calcium-carbide can only be manufactured where there is electricity. 65. Do you not know that the Calcium-carbide Company of Australia have been for the last ten years considering the establishment of a carbide-factory ? —No, I do not. 66. You thought that it was only since your company came into existence? —No, but they sent their manager here fifteen months ago to know if the electrical power was available. They sent him first to Tasmania, and afterwards to this colony. 67. And the suggestion was made only during the last few weeks that the factory should be erected at Milburn ? —That has been made for months past. 68. Milburn would also be within the ambit of your company's operations? —Yes, in that event. 69. Milburn is within the scope of your company? —Yes, and if we got an order for 200-horse power we would go there. 70. What about the other large places that are mentioned in your Bill—do you propose to supply them? —If from a commercial point of view we are warranted in doing so, we shall. 71. Who will be the judge? —The company, clearly. 72. You propose to go into the Counties of Taieri, Bruce, Tuapeka, and Waikouaiti, the City of Dunedin, the Boroughs of Milton, Mosgiel, Green Island, South Dunedin, St. Kilda, Mornington, Roslyn, Maori Hill, North-east Valley, West Harbour, and Port Chalmers, and the Road Districts of Peninsula, Tomahawk, and Portobello, so that you say it is entirely within your company's discretion, whether you go to all or any of these places ?- Certainly it is, but many of these boroughs are in the Taieri. 73. And since we have come here we have been told that Balclutha, Lawrence, and Kaitangata wish to come in? —Balclutha and Kaitangata were news to me. 1 was not aware of that until I came up here. 74. So you have some twenty districts, and the only one you have definitely made up your minds to come into is the only one that objects to your doing so. Is that not extraordinary? —Yes, it is very extraordinary. 75. Can you account for it? —No, it is beyond my comprehension. Considering the amount of money that has been spent and will have to be spent I cannot understand it, as it must lead to the greater prosperity of Dunedin. I made a statement before that as far as my personal interest is concerned I had greater interest in the industries of Dunedin and the Milburn Company than in the electrical company. Two years ago my board proposed to put modern engines down at the Milburn Cement-works in Dunedin, and I asked them to stay their hands until we could get electricity. 76. Then, we take it from you that you do not want to make a profit out of this company? - Nothing of the sort; I wish to make a fair profit. 77. Has an estimate been made of what these fair profits are likely to be? —I do not think so. There is something stated in the prospectus about the revenue, and so forth. 78. I notice in the red book that Mr. Stark prepared that he says that " When the 6,000-horse power of available product is brought into requisition, eight hours per day will give in revenue £36,500; sixteen hours a day will give in revenue £73,000; twenty-four hours per day will give in revenue £109,500 "1 —Yes. 79. Do you say those figures are accurate? —Yes. They are not my figures, but I am very gratified with them. 80. So that, according to the figures, your company hopes to make out of its customers 100 per cent, on the capital ? —That is the gross revenue. 81. But do not these figures shotv this, that when you have got your 6,000-horse power available you hope to make, running twenty-four hours a day, £109,500, which is considerably more than the capital ?—That is gross revenue. 82. Does the gross revenue for the year exceed your total nominal capital? —No. We require a larger capital. 83. What larger capital will you require? —I cannot tell you that. 84. Why cannot you tell us? —Because it is a question of policy. We may elect to do the reticulation or we may make an offer to the suburban towns. We may say, "We will supply you with electricity in bulk and give you an opportunity of owning your own works. You will then
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reticulate, and will be enabled to make your own retail profit." If we do that it will require very much less expenditure on our part 85. Assuming that you have to reticulate twenty-two districts, what will that cost? —That is absolutely impossible to ascertain now You have to get the mileage of the streets and the number of lamps required. 86. Have you done that?—To a certain extent. 87. Can you give the Committee any idea of how much capital you will require to do that?- • 1 cannot. There is no estimate prepared. 88. You have told us that your nominal capital is £100,000 ?—Yes. 89. And your actual capital is £33,000? —Yes. 90. You could not do it with that? -No. 91. Can you instal your 6,000-horse power, which is to produce this enormous revenue, and reticulate these twenty-two districts for £100,000? —No. 92. Could you do it with £200,000 or £300,000?— It is a question of policy as to whether the suburban towns shall do it or not. In other places some towns do and some do not. Our first step is to obtain the necessary parliamentary power. 93. The first step is to obtain the necessary capital?—We shall look to our capital, Mr. MacGregor. 94. You have told us your probable gross revenue: can you tell us what your net revenue will be?— No. 95. Why not? —Because I am not an electrical engineer. 96. Surely you are a business man? —Yes, and I have satisfied myself that this is a perfectly sound venture. I know that there will be a certain demand and what the cost will be to supply it, and that that is exceptionally low. 97. Do you know what the demand is?—We know what the demand is likely to be. 98. Take the question of the Taieri County, you heard what Mr. Duncan said about that--that the count} 7 had given their consent on certain conditions; first, that they would be entitled to 45-horse power per annum; and, secondly, that the company would pay a certain amount towards the engineer's expenses. Is that correct? —Yes. That agreement will be laid on the table. 99. Do you not know that the Taieri County has assisted you and that your company has agreed to give them one-fifth of your total output ? —I know we have offered the Taieri County, including the boroughs therein, one-fifth within sixty days. If they do not elect to take it we are entitled to offer it elsewhere. 100. Then they have a call of one-fifth of your intended output? —Yes, including all the boroughs within the county. 101. Mr. Fowlds.] You put a great deal of emphasis on the fact that the'whole success of your company is dependent upon Dunedin ?—Yes. 102. And you also say emphatically that the whole of the power from both sources will be required very shortly in Dunedin ?— -Yes. 103. Would there be any objection to putting something in the Bill to provide that, so long as the city had power to supply, your company should not supply any ? —I think that would be inoperative at once, as the Waipori power will be established before the city can possibly be at work; consequently the city will be unable to supply it when it is demanded. Our contracts are let, and the generators and Pelton wheels and iron pipes will be here shortly. We have to start operations within twelve months, and, to judge from Mr. Goodman's statements, there is no chance of the Lee Stream works being finished in that time, so that the Council could not supply the power. 104. Do you think it is a fair thing for Parliament to give your company power to enter into and take possession of the city, supposing you do get a few months ahead of the city in the scheme that Parliament has already authorised. It means a certain amount of monopoly if you get large suppliers for all time? —It is the question of monopoly that we as manufacturers of Dunedin wish to avoid. We contend, as manufacturers, that the competition between the two concerns will bring us to a fair level, and it will add to the prosperity of the place. 105. Does it not mean that the city has, in the interests of the ratepayers, entered into a scheme for the supply of electricity, and that being so, if you are allowed to go in and sell at a cheaper rate and monopolize the ground before the Corporation scheme gets into operation, will not the position be this: that a few of the ratepayers of Dunedin—a few of the consumers of the electrical energy —will be benefited at the expense of the great body of ratepayers, who will be saddled with the interest on the city's scheme which you have rendered more or less useless? — That will not follow. What is more likely to follow is that if we get in and the city comes in afterwards they will probably get better prices for what they have to sell than we. In Wellington you have installed 90,000 lights for lighting purposes only. If they were all at work it would take 9,000-horse power to keep them alight. In the City of Dunedin one lamp per capita is a fair proportion to allow. In Wellington, with 90,000 lamps, there is a horse-power of 1,500. So that when we deal with a system that requires power for tramway and lighting as well, as in Dunedin, the city will have nothing left. 106. Is it not futile to object to a clause in your Bill providing that you shall not supply electricity to any one in Dunedin until the Corporation have had an opportunity to do so, and refused to supply? —I do not think it would be fair at the present time. 107. Bear in mind that Parliament has sanctioned Dunedin going into a larger scheme for electrical energy. The city has started on that. If, as you contend, all the power schemes will be involved, is it not a fair thing to give the Corporation the first call for the supply of electricity? —I do not think so. This matter has been debated for the past twelve months; our merchants and manufacturers thoroughly understand it, and if they thought our proposal were an improper thing they would not petition Parliament to grant this concession.
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108. I would not take the opinion of merchants and manufacturers at all on a question of this kind. They are not the ratepayers of Dunedin alone, and they will be benefited if you get in and sell power at a low price. The ratepayers generally will be saddled with the interest in the event of the Corporation scheme being a failure, and I think it is a fair thing, seeing that both sources will be required to supply power, to give the Corporation the first call, and that would avoid anything in the nature of a monopoly price to the consumers? —It would unduly hamper us, and we have no evidence that the city will complete their scheme within twelve months. 109. If they cannot supply electrical energy, you can Supposing you got your power in and application were made to the City Corporation and they could not supply it because they were not ready, your company would be able to do so? —I think the safest thing for the citizens is fair and open competition. It tends to the prosperity of the place. However, we are in the hands of the House, and recognise that. 110. Mr. BuddoY] When did your company start actively on the work at the Falls? —In 1902 -about July or August. .111. Did the proprietors of the original rights, or the present proprietors of those rights at any time offer the water-rights to the Corporation of Dunedin ? —I believe they did, but that is only hearsay evidence —I cannot speak with any authority. I had no connection with the previous syndicate. I heard the rights had been offered for from £10,000 down to as low as £500. 112. You have no documents to show that the City Council made overtures to the proprietors, or that the proprietors made offers to the Council?--I have none. 113. In the event of this Committee recommending a clause enabling purchase within a period, would any less term that twenty-five to thirty years be satisfactory to your company ? — I say that if it were an open clause imposing a condition that they might acquire the works at any time it would be disastrous to the company. If such a contingency is likely to arise, I say, let us know our fate. If the term be forty years let the compensation be nominal, and if twentyfive years let the compensation be greater. 114. You made a statement in reply to Mr. Fowlds that you considered the amount of light required for Dunedin would be one lamp per capita? —That is so. 115. Would you not think that an extraordinary supply? —No. In Wellington you have 90,000 installed, and have gasworks competing with the electric light, and yet the electrical business is paying well. I do not think we are so far behind Wellington that we should not very soon get our premises lighted with electricity. 116. Have you considered how many of those lights were not in use? —I said "installed." I said that if they were all used it would probably take 9,000-horse power to supply the lights. But that is a question that should be put to electrical engineers. 117. You said in reply to Mr. Fowlds that you would recommend fair and open competition with regard to an undertaking of this magnitude? —Yes. 118. Mr. Herries.] How long has your company been in operation? —It was registered in August, 1902. 119. How many statutory yearly meetings have you held? —Only one, I think, or two. 120. Do you produce the report and balance-sheet? —I will undertake to do that. The statutory meeting will take place next month. The balance-sheet will only show the Construction Account and general expenses. 121. There is no chairman's report? —No, it is a verbal report to the shareholders, stating what progress had been made and what steps we had taken to ascertain particulars from our electrical engineers. 122. Was the promotion of this Bill discussed at your last statutory meeting? —No, that comes from the board of directors. 123. And have the shareholders been consulted as to the Bill? —Not that I am aware of. They might have been individually, but they have not been called together for the purpose. 124. You do not anticipate that the shareholders will object to the Bill? —They cannot. There is a certain power given to the board, which takes what steps it pleases. 125. The Chairman ._ If your company were only entitled to supply electrical energy in Dunedin when the Corporation were unable to do so, would your company go to the expense of carrying the electrical power there at all? —We could not carry it there without the capital, and the provision would so hamper us that if such a condition were imposed I would not like to say what would happen. We are formed for the specific purpose of bringing our energy into Dunedin —that is our main object. 126. If you are restricted from supplying any electrical energy to any one in Dunedin until they have been refused by the Corporation, will your company go to the expense of bringing that electrical energy into Dunedin at all? —Clearly not. It would be unwise for the board — exceedingly unwise—to attempt to go to Dunedin if we had not the power to sell or were dependent upon whether the Corporation was able to do so or not, and I think we should be blamable by the shareholders for doing any such thing as spending their money on the chance of operating there. 127. In the event of your company being restricted from supplying any electrical energy within the City of Dunedin, will it be the intention of the company to go on any further with their operations? —I do not think it would. Dunedin is known to capitalists, and if we quote the suburbs they do not know them, especially on the eve of Greater Dunedin coming about. Within the last two months or so we have had an application from the New Zealand Railways Department, asking us to quote what we would supply light to the railway-station for. In Caversham, the borough has decided to amalgamate with Dunedin, so that there is every reason to believe that the suburbs will become Greater Dunedin in time.
E. E. STARK.]
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Edgar Everett Stark examined. (No. 7.) 128. Dr. Findlay.] You are a graduate of the College of Applied Science, Cleveland, Ohio, and were made a bachelor of science in 1886? —I was. 129. Since when you have been engaged in connection with electrical industries for several years ? —I have been engaged continuously since. 130. Since when?—lßß6. 131. That is, for eighteen years you have been connected with electric lighting, traction, and motive-power industries ? —Yes. 132. Were you connected with the Brush Electrical Company? —Yes, in Cleveland, Ohio. That company was the pioneer in the arc-lighting business in our country. 133. And you were engaged with the Brush-Swan Company? —Yes, I went to New York and had charge of their installation-works in the New England district. 134. Had you any connection with the Manhattan Electric Light Company? —Yes, I was with them for five years. I started as chief inspector, and before I left I was acting as superintendent of their works. 135. You were also with the Ward Arc-light Company? —Yes, I was with the Ward Arc-lighting Company of New York and other companies. 136. You claim that you have had a very wide experience in this kind of specialty -lighting, traction, and motive power generally? —Yes; I was also with the Stanley Electric Manufacturing Company, who were pioneers in the transmission business. 137. You were specially engaged to come down to New Zealand to inspect the Waipori Falls electrical power ? —I was. 138. You came to New Zealand in 1903 under engagement to the company? —Yes, for six months. 139. What was your undertaking? —I was to make a report upon the plant and draw any specifications that might be required, and report to the Board. 140. And on the feasibility of generating and transmitting power to the consumers? —Yes. 141. Did you make a thorough investigation? —I did. 142. How many months were you occupied in that? —About six months, including the time 1 was on the ship. 143. If you found that the property h'jre was not likely to turn out so well as was expected, were you to return to California? —I was. I had simply a leave of absence from my employers, Messrs. John Martin and Co. 144. We understand that the population of Dunedin with its suburbs is fifty-three thousand? —Yes; that is, I take it to be so from the census returns. 145. What, in your experience, do you figure out as the consumption of power on the first installation proposed for private and public lighting? —In my very recent experience, particularly with the Bay Counties Power Company in California, where we had charge of the installation in some fifteen towns —that is, the installation of the distributing system—it was my practice when with that concern to allow a capacity equal to one sixteen-candle-power lamp per capita; and it was my experience that after I had finished that I had underestimated the consumption rather than overestimated it. That was the average of those fifteen particular towns which were supplied by a water-generated electrical plant. 146. Applying that test to Dunedin, what horse-power would be requisite? —For Greater Dunedin a horse-power of 5,000, and if for the city alone, 2,500. That is for supplying the electric light for domestic and commercial purposes only; Ido not include in that, motive power, or the tramways, or street-lighting. 147. What would you give as a preliminary estimate for the street-lighting? —Well, in a district which is so much scattered as Dunedin, with no regular blocks of streets, the light would require from 200- to 300-horse power for the streets alone —that is, for arc and incandescent lamps. 148. What proportion of the steam-power at present used in Dunedin would be likely to be displaced by electrical power if it were available at half the cost of steam?— The whole of it. 149. You think the whole of the steam-power would change to this power? —Yes; that is, steam-power which is used as motive power. 150. Do you think there would be any difficulty in your company furnishing power at half the cost of steam in Dunedin? —No. I expect to be able to compete successfully with steam. 151. You heard Mr. Goodman say that the Corporation would be able to bring its power to the power-house at a cost of £4 12s. per horse-power per annum, running twenty-four hours? — I did. 152. Would that be the cost to the Corporation if it were distributing that power among private consumers? —No; distinctly not. Mr. Goodman did not state that. 153. What additional cost would there be in distributing that power to consumers per horsepower—can you give me any idea?—l can give you an idea. It would cost anywhere from £5 to £50 per horse-power, and would be dependent upon the distance you had to run your mains and the quantity of horse-power you were called upon to deliver at the other end of the line. 154. I take it that 3-ou cannot say with any definiteness how much additional it would cost over £4 12s. 1— It you gave me a concrete case of any definite place I could figure it out. 155. Have you considered whether all the horse-power at present used as motive power would probably pass to this electrical power ?—I would not think that all would, because there is a portion of the motive power being worked by gas that could not all be changed. 156. Have you considered how much of the present horse-power would be changed to electrical power?—l should think somewhere about 1,600-horse power in Dunedin proper now could be changed to electricity to the advantage of the consumer. 157. I desire to have the advantage of your experience for the purpose of showing what effect upon new industries the providing of cheap motive power such as this has?— Cheap motive power
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invariably leads to new industries springing up. I have asked numerous manufacturers why they did not make so-and-so, and the general reply was that the cost of power was so high that they could not compete with people outside. 158. Take calcium-carbide--what is that?--It is a combination of coke and lime ground fine into powder, and by means of electrical treatment you get the chemical compound of calciumcarbide. If that is put into water it liberates a gas called acetylene, which is a hydrocarbon. 159. Can you tell me whether that can be properly manufactured without power being generated by water and electricity? —It cannot be generated in any place where coal is as dear as it is here; where it is as high as in any part of the world, as far as I know. 160. Can you say whether there is any prospect of a factory for the manufacture of calcium carbide being established in Dunedin if your company is admitted I—l1 —I have been in correspondence with a company that wishes to get into Dunedin to manufacture it., 161. What power do they ask for? —They ask for 2,000-horse power for the only plant which they could work economically, which means about 2,000 tons of calcium-carbide per year. 162. Are there any other industries that you think might be created if this power were available in Dunedin? —Many other industries could be created. There is carborundum, which is a compound used for grinding purposes. There are many chemical compounds which can only be manufactured economically by electrical mea-ns. There is, for instance, bleach, which is used in paper-mills, and which we now have to import from Germany. 163. You have estimated that to supply the electrical light to Greater Dunedin would require 5,000-horse power; you say that 2,000-horse power is suggested for the manufacture of calciumcarbide, and you think that 1,600-horse power already used by steam would become electrical motive power? —Yes. 164. We have had it admitted that the tram service of Dunedin will require 580-horse power and the arc lighting 250, so that already we have over 9,000-horse power accounted for without the further industries which You say may arise from the adoption of electrical power. It v> suggested by Mr. Hay that there is a municipal gas company in Dunedin : do you know from your experience whether the introduction of the electrical light in a town necessarily kills the gas com pany ? —ln some of the fifteen towns I have mentioned that are supplied by the Bay Counties Powei Company there were existing both electric-light plants and gas plants before the advent of the company. The gas companies sold out to the Bay Counties Power Company, and the electriclight companies did the same. Then the Bay Counties Company immediately doubled the capacity of the gas —first, by introducing modern methods and thereby reducing the cost, and, secondly, by decreasing the price of gas to the consumer. In that way the former outputs of the gas plants, which in some towns did not pay, were made to pay by the Company. 165. They had the electric light and gas side by side? —Yes. 166. And the advent of the company referred to resulted in the gas plants being doubled ?- Yes. 167. Did they thrive continuously after that? —They did. 168. Is the calculation you have given us of one sixteen-candle-power lamp per capita made on the assumption that the gas company in Dunedin will continue to exist? —Yes, after we have put in our sixteen-candle-power lamps. 169. I do not suppose you have gone into the wider consideration of what power could be supplied, including Dunedin ? —I have not gone into the question as to the whole area. 170. You have dealt with what you consider Dunedin may reasonably be expected to consume —the total for all purposes for Greater Dunedin? —Yes; somewhere over 9,000-horse power. 171. And that merely includes the 2,000-horse power for the calcium-carbide factory, and not the other manufactories referred to ? —Yes. 172. Is it an advantage in the way of security to have a double supply for fear of one supplyfailing? —Most assuredly. In all concerns it is always best to have what is called two strings to your bow. 173. Take New York, for instance: it is made an objection to allowing a second company to come in, that it would mean breaking up the ground in the streets, and so on. In New York, how many power companies are operating? —When I was there there were five or six large companies operating on Manhattan Island, and there were numerous companies that supplied several blocks with light. 174. Five or six companies operating in the one area? —Yes. 175. And with their plants and wiring in the same streets ?—Y 7 es, and in a great many cases they were duplicated on the same street. 176. Is it not possible, and in practice common, that where there is a failure of one supply, the other one is switched on? —Yes. We had an agreement with companies to buy and sell, and in three different instances when one supply was crippled the other would simply hook on without any trouble; the men simply went and did it. 177. It is suggested that for the tramway system the steam-power of 900-horse power should be held in reserve against accidents. Supposing you were allowed into the city along with the city's own plant, do you think it would be necessary to keep that steam-power as a stand-by?— No. It is highly improbable that with the two different sources of power any accidents could occur to knock them both out at the same time. 178. It has been suggested that there might be competition between the city and the company. It was put by Mr. Hay yesterday that you had to carry your power twice as far as that of the city, and that that would increase the cost to you? —That is so. Our distance is practically twice that of the city. 179. So that in the event of any competition the city should be able to undersell you?— Yes. The question of the two-power supply is shown on this map of the locality where the Bay Counties Company operates.
B. E. STARK.]
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180. It shows that there could be a connection made between our supply and the city supply if necessary? —Yes. 181. Mr. MacGregor.] How long have you been in this country? —Almost a year. 182. How long were you in Sydney? —Not a minute. 183. So that your knowledge of Sydney is more limited than that of New Zealand? —I said so. 184. Your figures show that Greater Dunedin, with a population of 53,000, should have a demand for 9,000 and over electrical horse-power per annum? —Yes. 185. Do you know the respective populations of Dunedin and its suburbs? —I am not an " old identity." 186. Would you be surprised to learn that there are only twenty-five thousand people in Dunedin and about twenty-seven thousand in the suburbs? —I am aware of that. 187. I suppose we may take it, applying that population test, which you say is the correct test, that at least 5,000-horse power would be required in the suburbs of Dunedin? —I did not say so, because that particular quantity includes a question I was asked as regards industries. There is a large quantity of that power considered in the calculations for the calcium-carbide factory. 188. Could you not establish the calcium-carbide factory as well outside Dunedin as inside? —Yes, if we could get the water to go up there —up the Bay. 189. Do you not know that it is only since this Bill was introduced that there has been any suggestion to bring the calcium-carbide factory into Dunedin? —No. 190. Do you not know that all the negotiations took place on the basis that that factory was to be situated at Milburn, but you were astute enough to see the effect of that, and shifted your factory into the city? —No. I made my calculations, assuming that the factory was to go to Milburn, and that our line would have to be paid for. 191. It is really out of consideration for your company? —It is a matter of price. 192. How is it that the first communication is dated August? Did not the earlier letters refer to Milburn? —No; they asked me for prices for Dunedin, Milburn, and another place. 193. And because you assume that you are going to get into Dunedin you quote a lower price? —It was because I did not have to construct another line. 194. And therefore you robbed poor little Milburn of this industry? —That is about the size of it. 195. So you are not possessed of those lofty motives which actuate Mr. Duncan, who shows some consideration for generations unborn, and so on? —Of Milburn, no. 196. I am glad to hear of that: you are out here to make money every time? —Rather. I did not come here for health. 197. Curiously enough, the only specific industry that will compete with yours is suggested —that of making acetylene gas? —I am not afraid of it. Acetylene gas is a vitiator of the atmosphere; it is a producer of heat and noxious fumes that destroy tapestry, wall-paper, books, and people's health, and if a man will use gas in his house when he can get electricity —even if it be at a higher price than gas —I do not think that man is altogether right. 198. How is it, then, according to you, directly electricity comes into a town the supply and manufacture of gas increase? —Gas is used for other purposes besides lighting. 199. But the purpose of this gas is for light? —Carbide gas is used in places where they cannot get electricity or gas from a central station. 200. Is it not used for lighting? —Yes, it is essentially a lighting gas. 201. Are you aware of the cost of gas-power? —Yes. 202. What is it? —About fd. per horse-power per hour. 203. What is the cost per annum for twenty-four hours a day?— Somewhere about £18. 204. And for eight hours a day? —Somewhere about £7, or a trifle more. 205. So that you can get gas-engines in Dunedin to work eight hours a day for £7 per annum. Do you k-now how many gas-engines are used in Dunedin ? —No. 206. Would you be surprised to hear that there are 161 ? —lt may be so reported in the papers. 207. You have not told us yet what you can deliver your power at in Dunedin? —No. 208. Why is that? —Because you are not ready to make a contract. 209. You have not told the Committee? —Because I have not been asked. 210. Well, what is the cost delivered at the present power-house or distributing-station in Dunedin? —Under the same conditions as Mr. Hay put it? 211. Yes? —Somewhere about £7 12s. for twenty-four hours a day. 212. That is the actual landed cost? —Yes. 213. So that according to your own figures the cost of a gas-engine would be less than the electrical engine. What would be the cost for eight hours? —The same cost. It depends upon the contract. 214. You cannot get any nearer than that? —No. It depends upon how much electricity you are going to take. It varies with the quantity. 215. The Chairman.] They want to know, not the price, but the cost to the company at the distributing-point? —What is the horse-power required? 216. Mr. MacGregor .[J Two thousand? —It can be done for a trifle less than £7 12s. for 2,000--horse power. 217. Have you worked that out? —No, that problem has never come before us, to deliver 2,000 horse power into one place. 218. Has it not come before you in connection with the calcium-carbide company? —Yes, in that particular place; but the two conditions differ entirely. 219. For lighting purposes £3 has to be added to Mr. Goodman's figures? —Yes. 220. That would apply to your figures, assuming that you did the distributing yourself, and you say that would cost, anything from £Per annum? —It might be more or less,
4—l. 13,
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221. Now, you have told us a good deal about what goes on in the United States: do you know what has taken place in New Zealand after the introduction of electricity--do you know anything about Wellington?— Yes. 222. What is the working-capacity of the works in Wellington? —They have a station which started some twelve years ago, and they have a system which is now absolutely obsolete as regards modern practice. 223. Can you tell us what the capacity of those works is? —Somewhere about 1,400 or 1,600 electric horse-power. 224. Do you happen to know the average quantity required for lighting purposes? —I do not happen to know the average quantity, but I know the average peak of the load, which is about 500 amperes at 2,200 volts. 225. What is that in electrical horse-power? —About 1,400 or 1,500. 226. You cannot give us the average quantity used? —No, but 1 know the quantity is less than half that —the average quantity is less than half that. 227. We may take it that 600-horse power is about the average amount used day by day: is that the fact? —I would say it is less than that. It is less than half 1,400-horse power by my simple observation of the plant. 228. Then, you happen to know that that power has been available for sale to consumers for fourteen years? —I know that the system is a system under which power cannot be economically used. 229. Do you know that it is on sale at 3d. per unit, and has been available at that price for the last dozen years? —I know it is sold at 3d. a unit. 230. And do you know that for that time only 400-horse power has been supplied? —If I went to the company and asked for 1,000-horse power they could not deliver it to me, and if I asked them for 100-horse power they could not do it in one bulk —their system will not allow it. 231. According to you, less than 600 electrical horse-power is in use in Wellington on an average, and it can be produced at 3d. a unit? —Threepence a unit is £70 per annum for horsepower. Do you wonder that the people do not bite? 232. Are you not aware that, so far as fuel is concerned, coal is much dearer here than in Dunedin? —I am not aware of it. In fact, I know what the price of coal is here. 233. In your very interesting book, which I call the "red book" to distinguish it, you tell us a great many facts, and the figures or estimates throughout the book are practically based on having 4,000-horse power available for sale? —Yes. 234. You do not commit yourself to the estimates made by Mr. Duncan on 6,000-horse power? —I have not in that book. 235. You do not consider that it is reasonably likely that you will have this 6,000-horse power to dispose of? —Our present intentions and contracts are based on 2,000-horse power. It is beyond my province to say what the policy of my board may be. 236. We have a great many figures and some estimates based upon this 6,000-horse power: have you gone into the figures in regard to the cost of landing 6,000-horse power in Dunedin? — Yes. 237. You do not do it in this red book? —I may not have done it in that red book, but I have done lots of things outside the red book. 238. Can you tell us where you expect to get the 120 heads of water that Mr. Duncan spoke about? —Out of the Waipori. 239. It is not in the Waipori. According to your figures the minimum supply is eighty heads, and you would have to increase it by half. How would you do that? —With storage by dams. 240. How many dams? —A set of three, possibly. 241. Has it not been properly estimated? —We do not own the land for it yet. 242. Have you any idea as to the quantity of water you will require to store? —I have. 243. How much? —An acre-foot of water at our pressure will last us somewhere about twentyminutes. Now, it is a mere calculation of running the number of twenty minutes there are in a month and then we have the acre-feet. 244. I have already made the calculation, and 1 will put it to you and ask you to say whether it is correct: Is it not a fact that in order to supply these forty heads to make the 120 heads for twenty days you would have to' get a dam or storage for 432,000,000 gallons of water? —I cannot give the figures in gallons. I figure in acre-feet. I could, no doubt, do it if it were necessary.
• Tuesday, 23rd August, 1904. Examination of E. E. Stark continued. (No. 8.) 1. Dr. Findlay.] Mr. MacGregor asked you whether, in allowing for 6,000-horse power, you would not require to store water at the Waipori Falls? —Yes. 2. Have you fully considered that question ?--The question has been fully considered some time. 3. Have you prepared a statement showing what storage will be required for a thirty-days service?—l was asked to give it in Imperial gallons. It is our custom to figure it in acre-feet, but I have reduced that to Imperial gallons, and prepared a statement which shows the acre-feet required and the quantity in Imperial gallons also: "Given 40 heads, required the storage-capacity for a 20-day service of the third 2,000 k.w. capacity.—Let us assume that our peak load (which is the extra quantity required) above 80 heads will last 1 hour, 2 hours, 5 hours, or 10 hours.
E. E. STARK.]
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Then, as 1 acre 1 foot deep = 43,560 cubic feet, and a Government sluice-head = 1 cubic foot per Second, one acre-tool will last i3 Ya 9 =17 minutes 7 seconds, and one hour will require a supply of 3£ acre-feet. 1 hour per day for 20 days will require 70 acre-feet or 19,000,000 Imperial gallons, 2 hours per day for 20 days will require 140 acre-feet or 38,000,000 Imperial gallons, 5 hours per day for 20 days will require 350 acre-feet or 95,000,000 Imperial gallons, 10 hours per day for 20" days will require 700 acre-feet or 190,000,000 Imperial gallons. The quantity required I have taken as 150 acre-feet (i.e., for, say, 2J hours for 20 days), which is 15 acres averaging 10 ft. deep, and will cover land in the mining-area upon which dam-sites and other mining rights can be granted." 4. Are there facilities for getting the dams necessary for this purpose at Waipori? —Yes, at three different locations. 5. Will there be any difficulty in obtaining the 120 heads of water which you refer to in your report? —None at all, from an engineering standpoint. 6. Mr. MacGregor asked you with regard to some figures we had as to the requirements of Dunedin. 580-horse power, we were told by Mr. Goodman, were required for the trams, and sixty arc lights for lighting the tramway? —Yes. 7. Have you considered the present known quantity of motive power in use in Dunedin? — That which I am fully aware of is somewhat more than 1,600-horse power, but in becoming aware of that I have not personally made a complete canvass of the town. 8. Mr. Hay said it was 1,760? —I believe he was a little more thorough. 9. But he thought that that power which is now used for sawmills and foundries would not be used electrically I—The1 —The reason he would have for making a statement of that sort would be that in a sawmill they would use their own refuse material for fuel. Now it happens that in Dunedin two of the sawmills already up and another which is being put up—namely, Messrs. Foster and George's and Simpson and Co.'s —are using gas-engines; and in another concern that did use a steam-boiler in Christchurch —namely, Jameson's —they have now entirely discarded their steam plant and put in an independent motor drive on each of the machines —namely, their saws, their planers, and so forth, substituting their whole steam plant with electrical motors. 10. And in each of the cases you have mentioned these sawmill-owners might have used their own refuse if they had wished?--Yes. 11. But they preferred motors? —Yes. A steam-boiler necessitates a man to take care of it, and that is a continual running-expense. A steam-boiler also requires a considerable time to start the machinery, a gas-engine less time, and an electrical motor can be simply started by turning on a switch. 12. Do you agree with Mr. Hay's view that the sawmillers now will continue steam? —No, I do not. 13. Do you know any reason why they will not use electric power if it can be supplied? —I can see no reason. I have seen steam-power displaced in sawmills in several towns in California by electrical equipment. 14. Was there a full supply of sawdust and other timber refuse there? —There was. 15. I pass now to the other class mentioned —foundries. He said that some foundries might continue to use steam. What think you ? —Messrs. Burt and Co. have said they would take advantage of our advent in Dunedin to replace the steam used in working their machine tools. The principal thing I have in mind is the steam-hammer, which can be profitably displaced by a compressor —that is, compressed air. 16. Is it used in America? —Yes; they use this compressed air for many other purposes, as well as the steam-hammer. 17. Can you see any reason why electricity should not be used for foundries? —I do not. 18. He also mentioned soap-factories. What would you estimate the total power at that is used in soap-factories in Dunedin —roughly? —Somewhere about 50-horse power. 19. Assuming that 1,760-horse power steam is now being used in Dunedin, if you deduct 50-horse power for that you will still have the bulk of that steam-power in Dunedin to replace with electrical power ? —Yes. 20. You have told us that you considered the lighting of Greater Dunedin would require 250-horse power ? —Yes. 21. Have you calculated on the best basis what the electric lighting for Greater Dunedin and for domestic and all other purposes would require? —For domestic and public lighting, shops, factories, and stores you would require more than one light per capita. 22. What would that give you for greater Dunedin, with a population of 53,000? —5,300----horse power. 23. You have 580-horse power for trams and lighting the tram-route, assuming that you only convert 1,600-horse power of the present steam-power now being used in Dunedin, and require 250-horse power for street-lighting, and 2,000 for the calcium-carbide company, that would give you a total demand of 4,430-horse power? —Yes. 24. This does not take into account what may be required for growing industries? —No, nor for what is required by the applications we have had already. One was from the Governmeni Railway Depot. 25. It was suggested by Mr. MacGregor on Saturday that this large amount of power for electric light would be uniformly spread over Greater Dunedin, and that therefore you would get a share outside of Dunedin proper. What do you say to that?— The population of Dunedin may be half inside and half outside —in the city proper and out of the city proper; but the place where the people work, as a matter of fact, is indicated by the concentration of even the car-lines into the city. The most of the manufacturing-shops are within the city proper, and the bulk of the lighting will be there. This average that I have spoken of as one light per capita includes all
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the industries as well as the home consumption. The home consumption will be, 1 admit, in the outer districts, but the main concentration will be in Dunedin proper. 26. Can you say that the greater part of it will be used in the city? —Yes. 27. Can you say what the proportion is likely to be? —I would say more than 75 per cent. We speak of it commonly as the cream of the lighting being in the business portion. 28. It may be put to you that Wellington is operating with 1,500-horse power? —That is apart from the tramways. 29. Do you think that Dunedin —and, if so, will you give us your reasons for so thinking will use more horse-power than Wellington 1— The stock of the company in Wellington is owned outside of New Zealand, and it has been the policy of the company not to push their business —in fact, they are some hundreds of meters behind their contracts. In other words, they have not the material on hand —they have not looked far enough ahead—to supply their present needs, and I do not doubt that they could, by pushing their business, increase their output perhaps 20 per cent, if they changed their conservative policy a little bit. 30. Will you deal shortly with the question of safety and hygiene in connection with the wide use of electricity compared with steam? You have had experience of the changes iv America that have been brought about by the use of electrical power and its effects upon the health of the people and atmosphere in cities? —The most notable case is that of Buffalo City, where they formerly used soft coal. It was rather a black city, and was called the Smoky City, but since the advent of the power from Niagara it has become quite a clean place. The houses and gardens are bright-looking, and the atmosphere has become much clearer. 31. Have you had an opportunity of noticing whether Dunedin is a city that has a great amount of smoke in it? —Well, I live in Anderson's Bay, and look at the city often through my glass, and I see that it is smoky the greater part of the time. 32. Where does the smoke come from? —From the factories. 33. And you think that could be avoided as it has been in Buffalo City? —Yes, by a large percentage. 34. The question of change from steam to electricity is an important one to the city. We have had the element of price mentioned. Can you mention, beyond the question of price, any other advantage that electrical power offers over steam-power? —Yes. In Suplee's "Mechanical Engineering," page 749, it says, " 1. Greater output per machine due to positive nature of drive; in many cases this is at least 50 per cent. 2. Ability to accurately determine —by means of recording instruments centrally located, with a multi-point switch —whether tools are being kept at work in proper manner, thereby affording a graphic record of the time each machine is in operation and its consumption of power. This will also enable the detection of tools that are .in bad condition due to abnormal friction of bearings or moving parts. 3. The flexibility of placement of machine tools to suit the passage of the work through the shop. 4. Better light and absence of dirt due to belts, shafting, pulley-hangers, &c, and less first cost of building owing to the lighter overhead construction permissible when no shafting, pulleys, hangers, or belt-tension have to be taken care of. 5. Free head-room for crane service. 6. Ability to shut down or start up any one machine independently of all others." 35. In the work on " The Electrical Industry," by Adam Gowans Whyte, an illustration is given of the economy effected by Messrs. Vickers, Sons, and Maxim (Limited). At page 131 of the work it says, " In the case of the Barrow works of Messrs. Vickers, Sons, and Maxim (Limited), it was found that the substitution of electric for steam driving saved half the coal-bill, with an increase of over 50 per cent, in output " ? —Yes. 36. With regard to the city's supply, have you seen the letters addressed to the Town Clerks of Mornington, Roslyn, St. Kilda, and Caversham by the City Council, offering them electric power? —I have seen such a letter offering electrical power at the lowest possible rate. We were in communication with the same people at their own solicitation. They came to us first, and the city approached them without being asked. That I know. 37. Do you know in connection with electric installations in America, whether in practice an arrangement is not often made between a company and the municipal authority to work their respective electrical installations to their mutual advantage ? —Yes, and I think it is possible that such an arrangement could be come to here. 38. Between your company and the municipality? —Yes, the municipality of Dunedin. 39. Along what lines? —Along the lines of sharing expenses and profits on a percentage basis. 40. You were asked by myself or by Mr. MacGregor about the cost of distribution of electricity, and you said it was from £5 to ,£SO. lam afraid that that statement was not understood by the Committee? —I had in my mind a perfectly clear conception of it, but it really needs some illustration. There are two costs really in connection with an electrical installation: First, the capital cost of the installation of the distributing system (i.e., reticulation) is dependent upon (a) whether the lines are overhead or underground, (6) the quantity of the horse-power delivered, (c) the distance to which it is delivered. This capital cost may range from as low as £2 per horse power to an average of £30 per horse-power and to a maximum of, say, £50 per horse-power. 41. ls that what you referred to in answer to Mr. MacGregor? —Yes. Second, the annual cost. of the above will therefore be dependent upon (a) the type of service e.g., the horse-power hours per year consumed from that reticulation; (6) the depreciation and interest rate which in its turn is dependent upon the guaranteed life of the conductors and their supports. I would enlarge upon that and say that it depends upon whether the cables are overhead or underground in that depreciation-rate. In a great many instances you cannot get a guarantee by a company of over five years' life of its cable. It may not be guaranteed for two years' life, or it may be guaranteed for ten years' life. A rate of charge founded upon these considerations will range from ss. to .£lO per annum as the conditions govern.
1.-13.
E. E. STARK.]
29
42. That is per electric horse-power? —Yes. The application of this is that in a concentrated area of supply the service will be at a lower rate per electric horse-power than in a scattered district, and that it is manifestly of importance that at the start of such an enterprise in this colony the initial reticulation be allowed to enter into the concentrated area —Dunedin in i his case. It was the sole object of the Bay Counties Power Company in putting in a line 144 miles long to get into a concentrated area —namely, Oakland and San Francisco. 43. Then, I take it shortly that if it is a sparsely settled district the capital cost to the company is enormously greater per horse-power than in a thickly settled district? —That is the consequence. 44. And the per-annum rate varies from ss. per horse-power to £10?— Yes, I could imagine cases where it could be —in the case of reticulation —as low as ss. or as high as £10. 45. Mr. Berries.] That is the annual cost, not the charge? —Yes. 46. The Chairman.] That would depend upon the three factors you mentioned?--Yes. 47. Mr. Fowlds._ Can you describe here the state of conditions that would produce the different extremes? —Yes. For instance, if we should distribute into a man's premises, our distri-bution-cost would be simply the interest and depreciation on our town transformers. In the other extreme, if we had to furnish the transformers and the lines ran for a great distance for a small power, the cost would be greater. Suppose the case of a little milk-separator over in the Taieri. Mouth : if we should run our main line there to supply 10-horse power for a few hours a day the capital cost would be relatively greater, and hence the rate would be very high. 48. Dr. Findlay.] I understand that, taking Dunedin proper and the manufactories in Dunedin proper, you think the company could supply its power at half the most economical form of steam? —That is my expectation. 49. Some questions were very rightly asked as to the intentions of this company in regard to carrying on its own work or selling out to any one else. What engagement have you got with the company? —A three years' contract, of which only two months have expired. 50. You were with the company six months earlier, I believe? —Yes, before the contract was made. 51. Have you prepared plans for the transmission? —Yes. 52. Have you prepared plans with the view of the present company carrying out fully its undertaking? —I have. 53. Mr. MacGregor. _ Do these plans include the dam-sites you were speaking of?—Do you mean drawn plans on paper ? 54. Have you prepared plans of the cost of the dam-sites by which you intend to store this 2,000-horse power? —I have. 55. And what is to be the cost of those dams?- -Somewhere about £5,000 or £6,000. 56. Dr. Findlay.] With regard to the Lee Stream, we have been told that the Corporation propose to get 2,000-horse power by forty heads of water? —Yes. 57. Does the Lee Stream scheme include a provision for storage? —From Mr. Hay's statement I should say it did. 58. How much? —Storage of twenty heads. 59. The Lee Stream scheme does involve a provision for storage? —Yes. 60. Mr. MacGregor.] And you understand from Mr. Hay that that provision for storage is limited to the production of five heads of water by storage on sixty days each year? —How many hours a day? 61. Sixteen hours a day. Five heads involve a storage for sixty days per annum of sixteen hours a day. Now, to come back to your dam, have you acquired any land on which to build this dam? —I have stated before that we have not. 62. Is it not a fact that the particular place which you require to store your water at is now owned by a dredging company? —No; there is one particular site below the Enfield dredge. 63. At any rate, you would have to make arrangements with the owners of the land before you could put a pick into it? —Mr. Cotton owns the land, and we have an arrangement with him already. 64. He is one of your directors?— Yes. 65. This additional 2,000-horse power is no part of the scheme as now projected, is it?— The real portion of the thing that is projected and contracted for is the first 2,000-horse power. After that comes the 2,000-horse power, which is still not included in the storage proposition. 66. And then after that is exhausted comes the third proposition of 2,000-horse power, which must be obtained for storage? —Yes. 67. Take the same conditions as Mr. Hay suggested with regard to storage: assume that you have to store sixty days per annum at sixteen hours a day in order to produce this forty head of water, can you tell the Committee how many gallons you would require to store?— What portion of the day would you be called upon to use this additional or storage portion of the 2,000? 68. My question is this: Assuming the same conditions that Mr. Hay assumed in his evidence for the purpose of getting the five heads, what storage-accommodation would you require for the additional forty heads? —If our load-factor was such as required us to give 69. But you must make that provision ?—lf we had people coming into a hotel eating for sixteen hours a day we should have to supply so-much food. 70. But you might have to supply it?—We might have, but it is against my experience. 71. Is it against your experience to publish the evidence you have published in your red book? There you give estimates for 6,000-horse power? —I do not remember that. 72. At page 15 of your book you give the following estimate: "£7 105.—365 days of 24 hours = about one-fifth of Id. per horse-power per hour "?—Where do I give the 6,000-horse power ? We have some contracts for a small percentage of our load where we carry for twenty-four
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hours a day. I would point out that the calcium-carbide factory is one of those industries that will use current for twenty-four hour's a day for 365 days, and when it is leap-year for 366 days. 73. I suppose you are not aware that there is a Factory Act iii New Zealand? —I know cases where it would be bad policy and really detrimental to an industrial concern to close down a furnace. A furnace, when allowed to cool down, is liable to crack, and a large outlay is required for renewal. 74. Now we have on the next page estimates given for 6,000-horse power : " When the 6,000--horse power of available product is brought into requisition, 8 hours per day will give in revenue £36,500; 16 hours per day will give in revenue £73,000; 24 hours per day will give in revenue £109,500." Is that for 365 days a year?—lt is calculated on that. 75. And you add immediately afterwards, " These may be taken as the lowest estimates of revenues."? —If we can get them. 76. You had something to do with the white book-—the prospectus? —I did not write it. 77. I did not say that you did; but is it correct? —It is, as far as I know. I have not learnt it by heart, but I know of nothing there that is substantially incorrect. 78. You start off in the prospectus with a statement that the company "had for its objects the developing of the water-power of W T aipori Falls and the generating and sale of electricity for motive power and lighting to all classes of consumers, ranging from as far south as Milton (Tokomairiro) to Dunedin, its surrounding boroughs and Port Chalmers, including intermediate districts." Is that correct? —That is our object if we can get remunerative business. 79. And if not remunerative you will not touch them at all? —We shall not. 80. And from your evidence during the last few days it is perfectly clear that you intend to concentrate the business in Dunedin to the exclusion of these outside districts? —I did not say so. 81. Supposing you can concentrate your business in Dunedin you will not serve the outside districts at all? —That is not exactly so. 82. Assume that you can dispose of your power in Dunedin, will you have any power left for the outside districts? Surely you can answer "Yes" or "No"? —I will say "Yes" first, and then modify it and say that by going through a district such as the Taieri, in which our trans-mission-lines can go, we can en route pick up any small business there is, which, if we did not go through the district, we could not possibly pick up, 83. Is it not a fact that the Taieri County Council has refused to give its consent to the line passing through the county unless you give it and the inhabitants one-fifth of your total output; that is to say, if you produce 6,000-horse power you have to give the Taieri County Council the first option of 1,200-horse power? —Yes; a first option of 400-horse power on each 2,000-horse power installation. 84. And that is in addition to the 75-horse power given to the Taieri County Council direct for its own use? —Not in addition, and only when they pay for it. They have to pay for everything they get. 85. That is at a special rate, is it not? —Yes; a lower rate, but not much lower. 86. Have you made provision for supplying any other of the local districts you speak of? — We have not. 87. And were any of those local districts aware until now that in all probability they will get no supply?— Nor are any of them under the same conditions that the Taieri County is. 88. But is not the Bill going through the House on the understanding that these outside districts are going to get a supply? —I do not think my evidence will show that. 89. You have shown us that there is an easy market in Dunedin for 9,000-horse power, while the total amount you can produce is 6,000; and if you are prepared to sell all that you can to Dunedin, what is left for the outside boroughs? —Those who first asked would be first served. 90. And you think Dunedin should come first because you can get the best price there? — They have expressed their desire to come first. 91. What, Dunedin? —Yes, the Dunedin manufacturers. 92. Have you taken the trouble to ascertain how many large consumers of power there are in Dunedin? —I have, up to the extent of about 1,800-horse power. 93. Can you tell us how many consumers of 100-horse power and over there are in Dunedin? -Yes, I can. 94. How many —are there fifty? —1 do not remember that there is that quantity. 95. Are there twenty-five? —Wait a moment; I will tell you exactly. There are five or six. 96. There are five —that is, consuming 100-horse power or over? —Some go over 100-horse power. 97. What is the largest? —The cement-works want 200. 98. Are Messrs. Foster and George sawmillers? Do you not know that they are only jobbing carpenters? —There are in Dunedin no sawmillers proper, as I understand the word. 99. Is it not a fact that these men are simply jobbing builders or carpenters?--They are men who use machines for driving saws, planers, and moulding and cutting machines. 100. How many horse-power do they use? —I think about 15. 101. Would you be surprised to learn that they do not use more than 2-horse power constantly all the year round? —In a water-power proposition we do not consider averages. In other words, we have to take our maximum as the quantity we figure on. 102. Have you made any calculations as to the power that will be required in the other twenty-two local districts? —No, I have not. 103. We take it then that the population of Dunedin City is some twenty-five thousand ?—Yes. 104. What is the population of the districts you propose to serve outside the City of Dunedin ? —I do not know,
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105. Can you not give us an idea? You told us that you were calculating things on a population basis, and as you say the population basis is the test, I want to apply that test? —We do not hope ever to light every farmhouse in the Taieri County or the Borough of .Milton, but we do hope to light every dwelling in Dunedin and its immediate suburbs. 106. What is the population of the places mentioned in the Bill—the Counties of Taieri, Bruce, Tuapeka, and Waikouaiti, the City of Dunedin, the Boroughs of Milton, Mosgiel, Green Island, South Dunedin, St. Kilda, Mornington, Roslyn, Maori Hill, North-east Valley, West Harbour, and Port Chalmers, and the Road Districts of Peninsula, Tomahawk, and Portobello? Can you give us the population of all those places?- -I would if I could. I know that they are sparsely populated on an average 107. Do you know, to begin with, that the population of the suburbs of Dunedin exceeds that of the city? The population of the city is twenty-three thousand, and the population of the suburbs is twenty-five thousand; or, according to latest returns, the city is twenty-five thousand and the suburbs twenty-eight thousand? —I assume that they are somewhat about half-and-half. 108. And do you not know that the largest factories are mostly situated outside the city radius? —I speak of Greater Dunedin in the area we cover, with fifty-three thousand inhabitants. The largest factory is the workshops at Caversham. 109. You have told us that Ross and Glendining's mills are the largest 1— I think they are outside the limit we have taken for our population. 110. Is it not a fact that the great consumers, such as the Roslyn Tramway Company, the Mornington Tramway Company, the Mosgiel Woollen-mills, the Green Island Ironworks, the Kempthorne Drug-factory, and all the large concerns are going into the suburbs? —No. Ross and Glendining are not in the suburbs, and 98 per cent, of those you have enumerated are already outside. 111. Do you propose to send the power to Mosgiel? —Rather. 112. And to the Kaikorai Valley?— Yes. 113. Then why not include Ross and Glendining's mill in your calculation ?—The area covered by the fifty-three thousand does not include the Taieri County. 114. You have made no accurate calculations as to the amount of power you will require outside the City of Dunedin ? —When I made my calculations I knew what the amount of power was within the Taieri Count}'. 115. What about the other places, such as Bruce and Tuapeka?—l do not know the tota? amount of power used in Bruce, but I know of some power that is there. 116. You told us that the Wellington Company are far behind the present needs of the city, and that they could increase their output by 20 per cent, if they choose to bring their plant up to date ?—Yes. 117. Is that not a very good reason why the Corporation should take up such an enterprise instead of a company that lags behind? —On the contrary, a company whose management is outside the area of supply are not so much interested in the growth of the concern, which would actually mean the investment of additional capital. They are not so much interested as a local concern, and would not take the pains to see that the enterprise was pushed as a local company would. 118. Does that not all apply in favour of a Corporation as against an outside company? —No. For instance, a company can push its works on faster than a Corporation in this particular enterprise, because a company can go into such business as the renting of motors on the easypayment system, or renting them simply on a horse-power basis. A municipal Corporation is not allowed to go into anything of that sort, because it is in the nature of a speculation. 119. Then do you suggest that your company has been specially quick in getting hold of things ?—I think they have been more rapid than other people. 120. You have been in existence since August, 1902, and have only got one-third of your shares off? —I am not able to judge of the financial aspect of this enterprise; lam speaking from an engineering point of view. We have more work to show than you have. 121. Then you think the manufacturers of Dunedin proper could be supplied with power by you at half the cost of steam-power ? —Yes. 122. And you appeal to figures in the red and white books to prove that? —I have figured that out. 123. And the result of your calculations is comprised in those two books? —Practically. 124. Mr. Berries.] You heard Mr. Goodman, I think, give evidence that £4 12s. was the actual cost of delivering electrical power into the power-house by the Lee Stream scheme? —Yes. 125. Are you prepared to admit that that is correct ?—Well, I am not responsible for those figures. 126. Do you think it is a fair calculation, or would you dispute it? —I would dispute it. If it were my business, I should differ from him. In making up the cost you must understand that his conditions are entirely different from mine. 127. What do you say you can put it in for—£7 10s?—That would be our approximate cost. Understand that that is not what we call reticulated; that is in bulk. 128. Do you think it is a commercial possibility for him to put his electrical energy into Dunedin at £3 less than yours?— Hardly. I would not like to advise our company to sell powe» at that price. 129. Then you only go in on the assumption of taking up what the Dunedin Corporation cannot supply, if you cannot compete with them? —I do not think they intend to sell at that price. 130. Their profit on that price would be more tlyin your profit, if they could sell the power at that? —They have not stated any price at which they intend to sell it. 131. Are you a shareholder in the company? —Yes. 132. How many shares do you hold?— About £300,
[is; B. stark
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133. If these conditions are true, would you advise your company to go into Dunedin if they cannot compete with the Corporation ?—I believe we can go into Dunedin and get power at a figure to make a reasonable profit on. 134. But suppose there was a war of rates, would not the Corporation successfully compete with you? —If such a thing happened I would advise the company not to enter into a war. There are other ways of fighting besides a war of rates. 135. But if they can produce the power so much cheaper, any basis that might be arrived at would not be a half-and-half basis? —It would be some basis we could agree on. It would not be a half-and-half basis in any case. 136. Is there any intention on the part of your company to go to Dunedin and act in agreement with the Corporation? —Certainly there is. It is my intention to submit a proposal to the Board. 137. You want to work amicably with the Corporation? —Certainly. I have never been anywhere but where we have worked amicably with our opponents. There is a feeling amongst engineers that we are brothers, and that our cause is a common cause. 138. Have you quoted any actual rates?—-Yes, we have made a contract, as far as we can make a contract, in one particular case, and we have quoted rates to three other people. 139. That is on the basis of getting your power in at £7 10s.? —No; it was a concrete contract for a particular specified thing at a particular specified price. 140. At a rate that will pay? —Well, the people saw fit to accept it, and they would not have accepted it if it had not suited them. 141. It is a rate that will give a profit to your company, and not a cutting rate? —No, it is not a cut-throat rate. 142. Mr. Fowlds.] At £7 10s. for the power landed in the power-house and at £10 per annum for reticulation, that would not come very far below the cost of steam, would it? —In that particular case it would not. That is one reason why it is difficult to go into a sparsely settled district. That is an extreme case. 143. That is more than by producing the power by gas? —Steam for twenty-four hours a day would cost considerably more than that, and steam in small units might run up to as high as £50 per annum. 144. Mr. Berries.] Included in the £7 10s. there is charged the interest on the capital, I suppose? —Yes. There is no profit added other than the interest on the capital, which, I believe, I figured at 5 or 6 per tent., including cost of renewals, upkeep, &c. 145. The Chairman.] As engineer of the company, have you formed any idea as to how long it will take you to land your power into the transmission-house in Dunedin ? —One factor in the consideration of that is as to when we can begin to obtain our rights of way. As yet we have no power even to ask a man's leave to put a right-of-way through his property, and shall not have until this Bill is passed. 146. Assuming that the Bill is passed, how long will it be before your difficulty is surmounted? —The machinery is expected here in December. It would then be possible, perhaps, to supply power within seven or eight months. 147. Seven or eight months after the passing of the Bill?- -It might be a trifle less; it might be as short as five months, but not less than that. 148. Putting aside ail other difficulties and taking simply the engineering part of the works, how long will it take you to complete them so as to bring power into Dunedin? —We could have the power into Dunedin by the end of this summer coming—about April or, perhaps, March. 149. That is about eight months from now? —Yes. The slow part of it is that I cannot approach Mr. Orchardson or the Public Works Department until I get a Bill through. I cannot ascertain what they will let me do, but after that I can get permission for my pole-lines. The other work can be going on all the time, and we can finish by the time I state.
Thursday, Ist September, 1904. Thomas Reid Christie, Mayor of Dunedin, examined. (No. 9.) 1. Mr. MacGregor.] W T ill you tell us, please, where the Corporation gasworks are situated in Dunedin? —They are situated in the Borough of South Dunedin. 2. How long have they been owned by the City of Dunedin?--I do not know exactly. About twenty-four or twenty-five years, I think. 3. What amount of money has been expended upon them to date? —About £161,000. 4. The city purchased them originally from a private company, I think? —It did. 5. Can you tell us the amount that was paid for the goodwill —have you any knowledge of that yourself ? —I cannot say definitely what the amount was. 6. You know that there was a large sum paid, but you cannot fix the amount? —That is so. 7. From these gasworks you at present supply gas for lighting and heating —gas cooking ami so on —to the City of Dunedin? —Yes, and power for gas-engines. 8. From a lighting point of view, is it a good supply?— Yes. 9. We will leave the question of power out just now. Do you supply any of the suburbs with gas from the Corporation gasworks? —Yes, several. 10. Can you name them? —North-east Valley, South Dunedin, and Maori Hill. Those are all at present. 11. How about St. supply St. Kilda to a limited extent, if at all, It is a very small suburb.
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12. There are only fifteen hundred people? —I do not think there are quite so many. It is a small, sparsely populated borough, and it would not pay to put gas into it. 13. There is another gasworks, situated in Caversham? —Yes. 14. Belonging to an English company? —Yes. 15. What steps are the Corporation now taking with regard to this gasworks in Caversham 1— There are certain negotiations going on at present between the representatives of the English company and the City Council, with the object of the Council purchasing the works. No doubt that will be an accomplished fact at an early date. The company are anxious to dispose of their business. 16. The purchase has been recommended by the Gas Committee of the City Council? —It has been recommended to the City Council. 17. To which of the suburbs does the Caversham Gas Company supply gas? —Mornington, Roslyn, and Caversham. 18. And South Dunedin, I suppose? —No. 19. Who supplies South Dunedin with gas? —The City Corporation. 20. So that when the City Council acquire the Caversham gasworks they will be in a position to supply gas to the city and all the suburbs? —Unquestionably. 21. That is your aim and object? —Yes. 22. As regards Caversham —first of all, Caversham is within what is now popularly known as Greater Dunedin —Greater Dunedin includes the city and suburbs? —It includes, I take it, Dunedin and suburbs. The burgesses of Caversham took a poll as to whether the}' should amalgamate with the city, and it was carried. The City Council, as far as they are concerned, are unanimously in favour of it. The matter, however, is one which vitally affects the ratepayers, and has been referred to the ratepayers, and a vote will be taken on the 7th September. 23. Then, as regards electricity, we were told in evidence the other day that the Corporation are now going on with their electrical scheme vigorously? —That is so. 24. At a total cost of some £104,000? —Yes. That is the estimated expenditure as far as power and transmission are concerned. 25. But that does not include reticulation ?--No, it does not include reticulation, which will cost a very large sum. I may say that we have applied —and I believe the license is now on its way to Dunedin —for reticulation. 26. Under " The Electric Lilies Act, 1884 " J—Yes. 27. Then, that electrical supply is intended both for city and suburbs? —Unquestionably. That was the intention all through. 28. Dr. Findlay.] Have you considered what amount of power will be required to give the City of Dunedin electric light? —Do you mean Dunedin City, or Dunedin City and its suburbs? 29. Dunedin City and these suburbs you referred to in your answers to Mr. MacGregor?- - lam not an electrical engineer. I have not gone into these matters. 30. Then you have not considered the matter ? —No, I have not considered it personally. 31. Do you know that St. Kilda has asked this company if it can furnish the borough with thirty-three incandescent lights for lighting in St. Kilda? —I was not aware of it, but if you say so I am prepared to accept it. 32. The English company at Caversham is at present running the Caversham gasworks? —Yes. 33. No price has been agreed upon between the Council and the company? —There has been a price stated, which at present I cannot disclose. 34. But the Committee want to know whether this belief of yours, that no doubt the purchase will become an accomplished fact, has a reliable basis or not. Has any price been agreed upon ? — No definite price. Only an outside price has been stated. 35. So that it will all depend upon the price as to whether you are going to purchase these gasworks ? —There is not the slightest doubt in my mind but that we shall purchase them. 36. All will depend on whether you can get the company to accept the amount you are prepared to offer. Is that the position? —They have named an outside price, and it is for us to decide. 37. You have not decided whether you will give it or not? —We have not decided what price we will give. 38. Have you agreed to give any particular price to the company for its works? —Not definitely. 39. Then you are in this position: that though you have not made up your mind to give what has been asked by the company, you say the purchase is practically an accomplished fact? —Of course, that is my opinion. 40. Have you had a report made to you that you will require to spend £80,000 upon the Dunedin gasworks? —Yes, £81,000. 41. Have you had any report made by any officer of your own against the purchase of the Caversham gasworks?— No. 42. Has any report been made to your Council by any one else against the purchase ?—No, not that I am aware of. 43. Do you know Mr. Suggate, of Auckland ?—Yes. 44. Do you know that he has made a report? —Yes. 45. Do you know the effect of his report? —Yes. 46. Is it in favour of the purchase of the Caversham gasworks? —Yes. 47. You are quite certain? —Yes. 48. You have not the report here? —No.
s—l. 13.
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W. G. T. GOODMAN.
William G. T. Goodman re-examined. -No. 10.) 49. Mr. MacGregor.] You are an electrical engineer? —Yes, sir. 50. And are acting as advisory electrical engineer to the Corporation of Dunedin? —Yes. 51. I want you to state, Mr. Goodman, as accurately as you can, what you consider will be the probable demand for electrical energy for lighting purposes within the City of Dunedin?— From observations I have made from time to time I should say that the peak load in Dunedin will only be about 700-horse power. Dunedin has not a very large shopping district, though there is no doubt that most of the shops would take electric light, owing to its flexibility and practically its non-inflammability; but, apart from the shops, the average small householder is not going to take electrical energy for lighting purposes. The average householder takes a house on, say, a yearly tenancy. That house is probably already supplied with gas-fittings, and it is not likely that the tenant is going to the expense of fitting the place up with electric-light fittings, knowing as he does that he might vacate the house at the end of his tenancy, and leave tlie fittings to be taken over by the property-owner to the advantage of the succeeding tenant. He has the gas, and he naturally looks to what amount he can save by substituting electricity for gas, and he will find that that saving would not pay for the cost of the installation of electrical fittings in one, two, or even three years. So it is hardly likely that householders in large numbers will become consumers of electric light. As far as the demand generally for electric light in the City of Dunedin is concerned, I should certainly say that the peak load will not go up above 700-horse power. It has been stated that the peak load in Wellington goes up to 1,500-horse power; but, as I have already pointed out, Dunedin cannot be compared with Wellington by any means. .")2. Mr Buddo.] You mention "peak load": is that the maximum amount of energy? — It is the maximum demand on the station. 53. Mr. MacGregor.] It is the maximum amount. What is the average amount—more than half that? —Less than half. I was referring to the comparison between Wellington and Dunedin. In Wellington there are public buildings which are sufficient in themselves to support an electriclight station, and a payable electric-light station, even with steam-power. Win , the demand for supplying these buildings for the current year is nearly what it would be for the whole of Dunedin altogether. Then, in regard to street-lighting, the streets in Dunedin are at present lit by gas, which is supplied by the Corporation from their own works. They have their gas-mains laid through all the streets ; the lamp-pillars are erected and fitted with burners, and it is hardlylikely the Corporation will go to the expense of lighting all the by-streets with incandescent electric lamps. .4s a matter of fact, incandescent electric lighting is not so good as incandescent gas lighting for street purposes. lam of tlie opinion it can safely be taken that the outside demand in the City of Dunedin will be 700-horse power. 54. The average demand will probably be about half of that? —Less than half of that. The maximum lighting will be required in the winter-time, and will be between 5 arid 6 o'clock, when the shops are open, and on Saturday evenings from 5 to 10 ; but on the other evenings of the week and on Sundays private houses alone will require power. Another point arises in connection with electric light in a private house: A man may have, say, twenty gas-jets installed in his house, and when his family go from room to room they do not take the trouble to turn the jets off ; but with the electric light it is altogether different. The lights are seldom kept on unless the rooms are occupied, as to turn off or on the light simply means turning a switch. This necessarily considerably reduces the householders' demands. •")."). So much for the demand. Then as to the supply. We have already heard in regard to that that the Lee Stream supply will be 2,000-horse power, the stand-by steam plant supply will be 900-horse power, and the Taieri supply, if it is required, will be 2,000-horse power, making 4,900-horse power? Yes. 56. Out of that you require 580-horse power for the tram service, including light for the principal streets, so that leaves 4,320-horse power available for public and private purposes? —Take it as 4,000 —you can ignore the steam plant. The steam plant could, of course, easily be utilised at times of peak loading. 57. Ignoring the 900-horse power, that leaves about 3,400-horse power available for city use' —Yes. 58. I need scarcely ask you whether that will be more than sufficient for all lighting purposes, because you have already told us that the demand will not be more than 700-horse power?— Yes. But realise what that means : that 700-horse power would operate no less than about fourteen thousand eight-candle-power incandescent lamps. 59. And the total population of Dunedin City is about twenty-five thousand people?— Yes. 60. So that according to your evidence the supply will be at least five times the amount that is ever likely to be required for lighting purposes- -that is, taking the supply at 3,500-horse power, or, taking the Lee Stream only, the supply from it will be 2,098-horse power—that is exactly three times the total requirements for lighting purposes? —Yes. 61. Now, just one general question: Notwithstanding all the evidence you have heard here, are you still of opinion that the power available to the City of Dunedin will be amply sufficient for all power and lighting purposes within the city? —Yes. 62. Dr. Findlay.] You are familiar with the Dunedin City and Suburban Tramways and Water-power Act of last year, I take it?— Yes. 63. In the event of your bringing in the Taieri, you have to give certain local bodies the surplus power, as defined by the Act? —Yes. 64. So that the figures you have given Mr. MacGregor will be subject to the demands of the local bodies, which have a right to call for the surplus that Mr. Fowlds referred to this morning— that is, if the Taieri is brought in. That is so, is it not? —Yes, if the Taieri is brought in. 65. Have you made up your mind as to what demands will be made on that surplus power?— Outside of the city? 66. Yes? —No, I have not gone into that.
W. G. T. GOODMAN.]
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67. At any rate, whatever figures are given are outside of the demands that might be made by the outside local bodies? —Yes. 68. May I ask you to check your calculations regarding Dunedin in the light of the experience of Wellington. I will ask you as to a few contrasts. You are aware that long before the electricallighting company was started in Wellington there was a city Corporation gasworks ? The Wellington City Corporation gasworks existed for many years before the Wellington Electrical-lighting Company commenced operations? —That is news to me. I have not followed up the history of Wellington. 69. Before the electric-lighting company started our streets were lighted with gas; now they are lighted with electricity? —Yes. 70. Is there reason to expect that that change will not take place in Dunedin? —Yes. I have already expressed my opinion with regard to Dunedin. It differs altogether from Wellington. The city-lighting here is done under an arrangement with a private company. The City Council granted concessions to a private company for lighting —they made certain arrangements witn regard to electric lighting, and probably the City Council get it very cheaply, because the company have the right to run their mains through the streets. 71. What company? —The Electric Lighting Syndicate. 72. Do you know what the City of Wellington paid for gas before it turned to electricity? —No. 73. Then you cannot contrast the two? —I said " probably." 74. I put it to you that your assumption is wrong, and I will show that it is. The change made from gas to electricity for considerations of utility, safety, and facility of lighting, and so on —I ask whether you think that change will not take place in Dunedin ? —I certainly do not know where the question of safety comes in in the matter of gas versus electricity for street-lighting. 75. We understand that in the old days the gas used to blow out frequently? —We cannot compare Wellington and Dunedin when considering the wind. 76. You think that 700-horse power would supply all the needs down in Dunedin? —Yes. 77. In estimating that, what are you allowing for electrical street-lighting? —We are already preparing for the electric lighting of our main streets. I have already stated the quantity of power required for that purpose, and the power required for lighting the other streets by incandescent electric lamps will be very small. 78. Can you give us any idea of what it will be? —Not more than about 80-horse power. 79. You engineers differ a great deal. We had the evidence of Mr. Stark that it would be a very great deal more than that. You say there will be little change from gas to electricity in private houses ? —There will be. Ido not think the average householder is going to change. 80. You take it on the assumption that the tenant would not change from gas to electricity: Are you aware of the fact that only a small proportion of the houses in Wellington are now lighted by gas ? —I know that a good many are. 81. Frequently you find gas and electricity in the same house? —Yes. 82. You said that if there are twenty jets of gas in a house the people do not turn them off on going into another room, but that in the case of electric light they switch it off. Now, is that not economy a very strong reason why the owner of a house should instal electricity? —I admit that when it applies to the owner. 83. And if a house is supplied with electricity and a tenant can live in it more cheaply on that account, he will be able to pay a higher rent? —What is the saving going to amount to? 84. You said there was an economy? —That is so, but the saving would be so small that an average householder would not go to the expense of installing electric light. 85. Mr. MacGregor seems to exclude heating by electricity from our field. If the Committee eliminate from the Bill the right to introduce electrical energy for heating purposes we shall be shut out from the manufacture of calcium-carbide?-—I do not think you can interpret "heating " in that way. The ordinary interpretation is that it is for domestic heating purposes. If you require electrical energy for the purpose of manufacturing calcium-carbide, then you require it as power; power in that case being used in the form of heat-energy. Mr. MacGregor: I meant heat for domestic cooking. Dr. Findlay: Very well; so long as that has been defined we know where we are. 86. Mr. MacGregor.] You were asked about the change that took place in Wellington when electric lighting was introduced, and we are told it was fourteen years ago? —Yes. 87. I think that was in regard to street-lighting: 1 think that was before the general advent of the incandescent mantle ? —Yes, decidedly so —fourteen years ago. 88. That would make an enormous difference in the ability of gas to compete with electricity, both in street-lighting and for private use? —Yes. 89. Mr. Fowlds.] You referred to the amount of power that would be available, including that under the Taieri scheme? —Yes. 90. Did you make it clear before what would be the extra cost of bringing in the Taieri power? —No, I have not gone into those figures. 91. You cannot give us an estimate? —No. 92. Your estimate is that there will be about 2,000-horse power from the Taieri Stream? —Yes..
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WAIPORI FALLS ELECTRICAL POWER BILL COMMITTEE (REPORT OF THE); TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. (Mr. W. FRASER, Chairman.), Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1904 Session I, I-13
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35,732WAIPORI FALLS ELECTRICAL POWER BILL COMMITTEE (REPORT OF THE); TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. (Mr. W. FRASER, Chairman.) Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1904 Session I, I-13
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