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1902. NEW ZEALAND.

GOLDFIELDS AND MINES COMMITTEE: REPORT ON THE COAL-MINES ACT AMENDMENT BILL, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Report brought up 28th Aitgust, 1902, and ordered to be printed.

ORDERS OP REFERENCE. Extracts from the Journals of the House of Representatives.

Tuesday, the Bth Day op July, 1902. Ordered, " That a Goldfields and Mines Committee, consisting of seventeen members, be appointed, to whom shall be referred all matters relating to mining and all Bills relating to mines ; with power to call for persons and papers ; five to form a quorum : the Committee to consist of Mr. J. Allen, Mr. Bennet, Mr. Carneross, Mr. Colvin, Hon. Mr. Duncan, Mr. W. Fraser, Mr. Gilfedder, Mr. Guinness, Mr. Herries, Mr. Lang, Mr. R. McKenzie] Mr. Millar, Hon. Mr. Mills, Mr. Palmer, Mr. E. M. Smith, Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, and the mover."—(Hon. Mr! McGowan.)

Thursday, the 10th Day of July, 1902. Ordered, " That the Mining Act Amendment Bill (Mr. Guinness) and the Coal-mines Act Amendment Bill be referred to the Goldfields and Mines Committee."—(Mr. Guinness.)

Tuesday, the 26th Day oe August, 1902. Ordered, " That the report of the Goldfields and Mines Committee on the Coal-mines Act Amendment Bill be referred back to the Committee for reconsideration." —(Mr. Guinness.)

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REPORTS.

Repobt on the Coal-mines Act .Amendment Bill.* The Goldfields and Mines Committee, to whom was referred the abovementioned Bill, havethe honour to report that, having duly considered the same, they recommend the Bill be allowed to proceed, subject to the amendments shown on a copy of die Bill attached hereto. Jackson Palmek, 26th August, 1902. Chairman. * The report was referred back to the Committee for reconsideration.

Second Repobt on the Coal-mines Act Amendment Bill. The Goldfields and Mines Committee, to whom was referred back the Goal-mines Act Amendment Bill, have the honour to report that, having further considered the said Bill, they recommend that the Bill be allowed to proceed, subject to the amendments shown on a copy of the Bill attached hereto. Jackson Palmek, 28th August, 1902. . Chairman.

Final Repokt on the Coal-mines -\ct ;\mendment Bill. The Goldfields and Mines Committee have the honour to report to your honourable House that they have agreed to the following resolution, viz. : Resolved, That this Committee recommend that the Government take up the Coal-mines Act Amendment Bill as a Government measure, and use their utmost endeavours to have the said Bill passed into law during the present session. Jackson Palmek, 29th August, 1902. Chairman.

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JAMES COUTTS,]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Feiday, 18th July, 1902. James Coutts examined. (No. 1.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your name?—James Coutts. lam Inspector of Mines for the Auckland District. 2. Have you been Inspector in any other districts than Auckland ? —No. 3. Mr. Guinness.] What is the usual time taken by the miners for meal-time, or crib-time as it is called, while they are working underground'—Generally half an hour. They have no limit. 4. What is the usual practice or custom ?—About half an hour. 5. Not more than half an hour?—Not more. It is supposed to be about that time. 6. Mr. J. Allen.] Are you Inspector of Coal-mines or Gold-mines in the Auckland District, or both?—Both. 7. The Chairman.] Have you read the Bill ?—Yes. 8. Mr. J. Allen.] And know the purpose of it ?—Yes. 9. What is it, in your own words?—To reduce the hours' worked from eight hours and a half, as is practically the case at present, to eight. 10. You have said already that the lunch-time is half an hour?—Of course, the men might be allowed to take more if on wages, but half an hour is the usual time. 11. Are the men for the most part working on piecework or day's wages ? —ln gold-mining in the Waihi district it is mostly piecework now. 12. Then, if the hours are shortened from eight hours and a half to eight for the pieceworkers, what difference will be made in the production ?—lt will increase the cost, of course, and the men will be working half an hour less at the face. 13. With regard to the men working on day's wages, if their hours of work are decreased by half an hour a day, will that increase the cost of production ?--Of course so. 14. If you were a working-miner in a gold or coal mine, and you had to choose between shorter'hours of work underground with less wages and the present hours of work with the present wages, which would you select ?—lt would depend on circumstances. Sometimes a man, preferring to get a little more in a day, would stick to the present arrangement, but reducing the hours would mean in time an increase of pay. A man must get a living if he works six, seven, or eight hours. 15. Do you think that the Bill would mean that the hours and wages would be reduced ?— That is what it would come to; but I should say if the men are getting only a living at the present time they would have to. get that if the hours were reduced. 16. The hours would be reduced and the wages remain the same ?—That is what it would come to. „ _, .. , . . . 17. What effect would that have upon the cost of production ?—lt would certainly increase it considerablv. , , . , ~ ,-, . -, 18 You know the mines in vour district—l refer to the coal-mines, not the gold-mines :do you know whether the owners are making more profit than is reasonable for coal-mine working?— I should not say they are. There are two mines paying a regular dividend, but Ido not thmk it is anything out of the way. 19 If the cost of production were increased owing to this Bill, would that extra cost come out of the profits of the mine-owners or out of the public ?—lt would be a matter of raising the price of coal, and the public would have to pay. 20. Mr. Colvin.] What hours are worked in a coal-mine now by men getting paid so-much per ton—working on contract ?—Bight hours and a half is the time worked. 21. In your district ? —Yes. 22 Is it not a fact that if the men worked shorter hours they will work harder during those hours and the production will be very little less ?—They work as hard as they can while they are there. Ido not see that they can do any more. On their own contracts they do their best. 23. Do you remember the time when the men worked ten hours a day instead of eight, as at PreS< 24. Do they not get as much coal now in eight hours as they did in ten?—No, I should not sav that they could. I should say, more in ten hours than in eight. , , ~ . , , , 25 Mr W Fraser.] It has been asserted that working eight hours and a half in the low levels of a mine is prejudicial to the health of the men : what is your experience in regard to that ?— If the hours could possibly be reduced, that should be done. The men do not want to stop there any longer than they can help. . ~,,,,,,,, ~,, r ~ 26. Do you consider that eight hours and a half a day is prejudicial to their health?—Yes; the shorter time they are there the better for the men, of course. 27 That is not the question. What I want to know is this : Within your knowledge as an Inspector, has it ever been shown that eight hours and a half a day is prejudicial to the men's health? —No, not more thanjusual. 2—l. 4a.

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[JAMES COUTTS.

28. Hon. Mr. McGowan.] What are the actual working-hours at the face in the Waikato coalmines—not counting bank to bank, but the actual working-hours ?—About eight hours is the time. 29. For all the men ?—Yes, down below. 30. I mean exclusive of the time taken up for crib. Do they work eight hours from the time they leave the bank till they get up again? They are eight hours from bank to bank? —Yes. 31. How much is deducted from that for crib-time? —When on their own contracts they will sometimes take only fifteen minutes. 32. Take the wages-men first: For wages-men how much is deducted for crib-time ? —Half an hour is the usual time. 33. How much is taken from the time of going from the bank to the work and coming back to the bank ?—They generally take about a quarter of an hour one way and a quarter the other way. 34. A quarter each way?—Yes. 35. That leaves seven hours at the face in the case of coal-mines ?—Yes. 36. Let us now deal with quartz-mines :Is the same rule in force in quartz-mines—l mean under wages? What is the time from bank to bank in a quartz-mine where the men are on wages? —Eight hours. 37. What is the usual time allowed for crib in a quartz-mine ?—Half an hour. 38. Is it universally half an hour? —Men on wages will sometimes take longer, but half an hour is the recognised'time. 39. What is the time usually taken from the poppet-heads to the works, as far as the wages-men are concerned ?—They are supposed to relieve their mates, so they must work eight hours. 40. They are eight hours from bank to bank in a coal-mine?—Yes. 41. Is the time more than eight hours in a quartz-mine?—They are supposed to relieve each other in the face, so it must be more than that. 42. At that rate they would require to be actually more than eight hours from bank to bank? —Yes. 43. What would be the average time from going down the shaft—take the ordinary man ?— You cannot very well get away from the men relieving each other at the face. 44. What I want to get at is the time from the poppet-head to the work?—lt will be about eight hours and a half. 45. That is about half an hour going backward and forward?—Yes. 46. It may be more sometimes, or less ?—Yes. 47. The wages-men get half an hour for crib?—Yes. 48. With regard to contractors, where the men are doing work by contract, do they work the same hours?—Yes. 49. If the hours were shortened and the meal-time was taken out, what effect would that have on the contractors? —I do not understand your question. 50. At present a man is supposed to work eight hours, but actually he is working eight hours and a half, because he is bound to be there in time to go down to relieve his mates at the face. If that time was shortened by half an hour, what result would it have on contracting ? —A man could not do as much in seven hours and a half as he would do in eight. 51. Has any complaint been made to you ?—I have heard no expression in the matter of hours at all. 52. Was any complaint made when the Bill was passed last year? I think some of the miners were aware of the provisions of the Bill as it originally passed, and there was an amendment introduced in the Upper House which excepted the meal-time? —I did not hear of any complaint. 53. Mr. R. McKenzie.] I did not hear the witness's leading evidence when coal-mines were referred to. I would like to know the length of haulage in the mines in the Auckland District that he referred to—the longest?—l should not say it was very extensive, not more than half a mile or so. 54. What sort of explosives do they use in the Auckland quartz-mines?—Gelignite, as a rule. 55. How far have the men to go to their work in the Waihi Mine: what distance have some of them to go to the face from the entrance of the mine ?—ln the case of the Waihi and others it would not be more than quarter of a mile or thereabouts. 56. Are there any mines where the distance is more than that ? —ln one or two it might be a little more, but not much. 57. How is the ventilation in those mines ?—Fairly good. 58. How deep are they? —They vary; but it all depends where it is from :ifit is from the top of the hill downwards 59. I mean from where they enter the mine to the lowest level ?—About 600 ft. or 700 ft. 60. What effect do you think dynamite-fumes and the usual dust there is in a mine would have on a man's health ?—You cannot get away from the fact that they are not good for anybody. They are injurious to a man's health, no matter what is done. 61. You have a good idea of the average distance the men live from the entrance to the mine ?—Yes. 62. How long would it take them on an average to get to their houses and back ?—They would not be more than about a mile away at the outside. 63. That would take the men another quarter of an hour each way ?—Yes; but a mile is the extreme distance. 64. Practically some of them would have to be attending to their work for nine hours a day, including the time between leaving their homes and getting to their work and going back again ?— Yes, I should say so.

EGBERT TENNENT.]

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65. Mr. Guinness.] It seems to me that the witness has not understood the Minister's questions. When you tell us, Mr. Coutts, that eight hours from bank to bank is the time that a miner has to be underground, are you speaking of the custom that prevailed before the Act of November last year, or after the Act came into operation?—After the Act was passed. 66. Was a difference made in the time the miners had to be underground after the passing of that Act ?—I do not think much alteration was made. 67. Have you taken into consideration, in answering the Minister's questions, this language in section 5 of the Act, which says, " Subject to the provisions of the Act, a miner shall not be employed underground for a longer period in any day than eight hours, exclusive of meal-times " ?— Yes. 68. You understand the meaning of that ?—Yes. 69. Namely, that a miner must be underground eight hours, plus the time that it takes to eat his meal. If it takes him half an hour to have his meal he has to be underground eight hours and a half, and if he takes a quarter of an hour eight hours and a quarter?—Yes. 70. How did you come to tell Mr. McGowan that a miner would put in only seven hours' work under the law as it now stands ?—lf he goes from bank to bank it is eight hours. 71. Exclusive of meal-time?—Yes. But lam speaking of the Auckland District. I say they are working eight hours from bank to bank. 72. I want to know whether it is not a fact, if they carry out the provisions of the law, that the only time that is not to be reckoned is the time they are engaged in taking their meals. Mr. McGowan has extracted from you evidence to the effect that under the operation of this law a miner is engaged at the face for only seven hours, and I want you to correct your evidence so as to show that he is engaged seven hours and a half. A miner goes to the pit or tunnel mouth at 8 o'clock in the morning to commence his work. It takes him a quarter of an hour to get to the face. That is what you have said ?—Yes. 73. Then he continues to work until meal-time ; then he knocks off for about half an hour to take his meal. He then goes to work again till knocking-off time, and it takes him a quarter of an hour from the time he knocks off to get to the surface. Well, now, will you please add up that time, having in view the language of this section of the Act of last session, and tell us how long you reckon he is actually at work at the face?—lf he is only eight hours from the surface, and takes half an hour for crib, that must leave seven hours. 74. The Chairman.] Do you know the hours at which the men go on to work and the hours at which they knock off?—l think it is about half-past 7. 75. Mr. Guinness.] Is it a fact that the mine-owners allow the men to ignore this provision in the Act which says " exclusive of meal-times " ?—That is what I understand, is the time. lam not there to see it done myself, but I understand that is what is done. 76. You cannot tell us for certain from what you have observed by your own inspection—you have never had this point under your notice ? —That is what I understand. I have seen the men go on and come off on different occasions, but not go on and come off on the one day. 77. The Chairman.] You have got a lot of mines to inspect?—Yes ; the whole of the Auckland District. 78. Gold-mines as well as coal-mines ?—Yes. 79. Mr. Guinness.] Do you think that by lessening the number of hours the men are underground it will tend to make the occupation more healthy for the miners ?—Decidedly it will. Robert Tennent examined. (No. 2.) 80. The Chairman.] What is your name? —Robert Tennent. 81. What are you?—lnspector of Gold and Coal Mines for the Marlborough, Westland, and Nelson Districts. 82. Have you ever been in any other districts?—No. 83. Mr. Guinness.] Will you tell us whether the Mining Act Amendment Act past last November, altering the hours of working for the miners, has been taken advantage of in any of the mines at Denniston, Reefton, Blackball, or Brunnerton ? —The amendment has been strictly carried out. 84. What do you say is the meaning of the clause, and what is the way in which you have seen it carried out ? —The men starting work at 8 o'clock knock off at 4. There is no allowance over the eight hours for meal-time. Whatever time is given for meal-time is included in the eight hours, 85. But the Act says, eight hours underground " exclusive of meal-times"?—That is in the eight hours' time that the men are in the mine. In all our big collieries the day's work is regulated by the haulage. 86. What is the usual time allowed for meal-time in the coal-mines in the Denniston district ? —Fifteen minutes for meal-time. 87. And in the Reefton mines?—Half an hour. 88. That is, the quartz-mines ?—Yes. 89. In the Blackball Coal-mine ?—I think it is half an hour there. 90. In the Brunner Coal-mine ?—The same time, I think. 91. In your opinion, what effect will the decreasing of the hours of work underground have upon the health of the miners: will it tend to render the occupation less unhealthy ? —I do not think it will do much good. Of course, shorter hours would have a tendency to lengthen a man's life; but if I were asked as to an average day's work it would be a different thing altogether. 92. How much per day would you say the ..\ct of last November has decreased the hours of underground work ? —About half an hour—a full half-hour.

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[ROBERT TENNENT.

93. Mr. W. Fraser.] Are you aware that the Act referred to by Mr. Guinness has no effect on a mine which comes under the operation of an award of the Arbitration Court ? There is a clause in the Act which provides that the Act should not have any effect in a mine under the operation of an award of the Arbitration Court unless the award had lapsed ?—As far as I know, the working-hours of ihe Westport Coal Company's employees have been adjusted by an arrangement with the union. The present working-conditions are in accordance with the Act. 94. The hours are fixed by an arrangement between the parties ?—No; by the Act. 95. Mr. Lang.] I would like to ask the witness whether the working-hours in the various mines mentioned are eight hours from bank to bank, including the meal-time ?—No; I would not say that. The travelling-time is over and above the eight hours. The day's work is regulated by the haulage-rope. The haulage works eight hours a day, less the meal-time ; the time the men take to travel into the mine and out is outside of that. They are supposed to be eight hours at the face. 96. What I want to know is whether the meal-time is included in or excluded from the eight hours?—lt is excluded. There is no allowance for meal-time over the eight hours ; it is included in the eight hours worked. The actual working-time is eight hours, less the meal-time—that is, seven hours and a half. 97. The meal-time is included in the eight hours?—Yes. Formerly, before the amending Act came into operation, in a single shift the time worked was eight hours and a half; now it is strictly eight hours. 98. The Chairman.] The men are underground eight hours, you say?—Yes. 99. Mr. W. Fraser.] What becomes of the half-hour lost in going to and returning from the work? Is there half an hour idle time between each shift?—l am speaking of one shift. Where there are two shifts the travelling-time comes out of the eight hours. 100. Then, there is half an hour stoppage of work ? —Take the case of the Blackball Company, for instance : they start at 6 o'clock in the morning and knock off at a quarter to 2. That gives a quarter of an hour for the men to travel to the work. They change shifts at the face, and there is a quarter of an hour allowed for coming out. That is where two shifts are worked — i.e., sixteen hours a day. In my former answers I was dealing with mines where there was a single shift. 101. The Chairman.] Is it 6 o'clock when they enter the mine or go down the bank ?—When they enter the mine. It is a few minutes before 6 when they enter it. 102. At what hour do the men leave the mine ? —2 o'clock. 103. Mr. Millar.] I suppose the large majority of the men who work at the face are pieceworkers? —No. With the Westport Coal Company's employees it is chiefly day-work. 104. How long is it since they started that system at Westport ?—A very considerable time. The filling is all done by day-work. The coal is cut by machinery. We have some miners working on piece. 105. Taking the coalfields of the colony as a whole, are not the majority of the men at the face on piecework ?—No. Only about one-fifth of the coal raised is brought up by piecework. 106. Is that outside of the Westport Coal Company ? —No ; in the Westport Coal Company's mine. 107. I was referring to the colony as a whole ?—ln other parts it is all piecework. 108. Therefore, if this proposed amendment were brought into force, it would not affect the coal-mine owners to any large extent, with the exception of the Westport Coal Company, because the pieceworkers are only paid for what they do, whether they work eight hours a day or less ?— It would affect all the companies, because their production would be lessened. 109. The trucking is all done by contract? —Yes. 110. Therefore it would not increase the cost of that ?—lt would increase the cost, because it would lessen the production. 111. But if the men are paid by contract they are paid only for what they do, so that if the output is reduced the cost is also ?—Yes. 112. Consequently, taken all round, it would not mean a great increase in the actual expense of a company, beyond the loss of profit on the reduced production ? —No, unless the day-men come in on that footing. 113. It would affect all the day-men to that extent?—Yes. 114. But, if that clause were put in subject to any existing agreement in the Arbitration Court, do you not think that when the matter again came before the Arbitration Court the Court would fix the wage in accoidance with the number of hours worked?—Yes, it would come to that. 115. If this clause were put in subject to any existing award of the Arbitration Court you do not anticipate it could do very much harm?—No. It could not do much under an existing award. 116. Assuming that this clause were put in, that the amending Act should not come into force until the present awards have been reviewed by the Arbitration Court, in your opinion would it increase the cost of production ?—lt would certainly increase the cost of production even under the present award. 117. To the extent only of the loss of profit on a reduced output?—Yes. 118. And you anticipate that reduced output would be considerable ?—lt would be reduced very much. 119. What are the average hours that the miners work in the mines now?—They are inside the eight hours. 120. But are there many men on the West Coast who put in more than eleven days a fortnight ?—They only work eleven days at the outside.

ROBERT TENNENT.]

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121. So there is practically a day lost now ?—Yes. 122. Mr. Guinness.] That is, two half-holidays ?—One full day. One colliery is idle one Saturday and the other the next Saturday. I refer to the Westport Coal Company. 123. Mr. Millar.] That has been the custom for years ?—Yes, the last two or three years. 124. Mr. J. Allen.] Will you tell us what the average time per week is for the year—winter and summer—for an ordinary miner's work?—l happened to be present in the Arbitration Court when the Westport Coal Company handed in a statement of the average time worked : it was 5'3 days per week all the year round. But I think so far this year there has been a reduction in the time. The Granity Creek Mine has not been fully employed. 125. You said, in answer to Mr. Millar, with regard to piecework, that the only difference would be that the output would be decreased: is that so ? —Yes. 126. Now, in your opinion, what proportion of the men on the Coast are engaged on piecework compared with the day's-wages men ? I wish to include in the day's-wages men office men, men engaged in haulage on the surface, truck-tipping on the surface, loading trucks, truckers down below —if they are day's-wages men —and all the rest. Take one mine that you know of and give me the proportion of pieceworkers to day's-wages men? —About half day's-wages men and half pieceworkers, as nearly as I can say. 127. You told us that the effect of last year's Act was to reduce the hours of work at the face by half an hour a day ? —Yes. 128. If this Bill became law as it stands now, what would be the result on the time worked at the face ?—lt would take off fully half an hour. 129. Now, what is your experience of the effect of the last Act as between the day's-wages men and the pieceworkers ? Are the day's-wages men at the surface working eight hours or seven hours and a half ?—They generally knock off when the pit knocks off. 130. Does that mean half an hour's less work? —Yes,-half an hour's loss to the company. 131. If this Act is passed, will another half-hour be knocked off the day's-wages men's time?—Yes, just half an hour. 132. In your opinion, if another half-hour is knocked off the day's-wages men, can they expect to get the same pay?—No, they cannot. 133. Then, the result would be a reduction of their wages ?—Certainly; it could come to nothing else. 134. Do you of your own knowledge know whether the men would rather work half an hour a day less and have their wages reduced correspondingly or remain as at present? —I think they would prefer to remain as at present. 135. With regard to the work at the face, I understood you to say that in the case of a single shift the men now do seven and a half hours' pick-and-shovel work and take up half an hour in going and coming—that is, eight hours underground, exclusive of meal-time : is that so ?—They have their meals underground. 136. Yes ; but the work at the face and going and coming, exclusive of meal-time, takes up eight hours ?—At our collieries, where the haulage is taxed to its utmost capacity, we generally regulate the work by the haulage. We start strictly to the hour and knock off strictly to the hour, and these ropes are going for eight hours, less the meal-time. 137. Mr. Guinness.] In the middle of the eight hours the ropes are not travelling? —They stop on the hill. 138. Mr. J. Allen.] The actual travelling-time of the ropes is seven hours and a half?— Yes. 139. And the actual working-time seven hours and a half?—Yes. 140. Supposing you have three shifts going in a mine, what is the result upon the men: do they work the whole twenty-four hours, or have they to stop ?—ln one case sixteen hours is worked. As I said, half an hour out of the eight is allowed for the men to travel, and the rope is then stopped for half an hour for one shift to go in and the other to come out. 141. Then, there is a loss of half an hour for the meal-time and another half-hour for coming in and going out ?—Yes. Practically, where there are two shifts running in the sixteen hours, there is a dead loss of one hour on each shift. The same conditions apply where three shifts are worked. 142. Does that reduce production?—Yes. 143. Are the machines worked on time or piecework ?—All day-work. 144. What would be the result of this Bill upon the machines : would it cut down their work by half an hour?—Yes, just the same. 145. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Which men were you referring to when you said the haulage-ropes only worked seven hours and a half?—The whole of the ropes—Denniston, Blackball, and Brunner. 146. When do they start working?—At 8 o'clock, and stop at 4. 147. Is that eight hours ?—Yes ; but there is a stop in the middle of the day for meal-time. 148. The inference to be drawn from what you said was that the men must get into the mine and out of it in seven hours and a half ?—I did not mean that. 149. Is it a fact that the men in a shift going on relieve the other men when they knock off? —They change at 2 o'clock. 150. The haulage does not stop because one engineer relieves another, does it ?—A whistle blows at a quarter to 2, and they knock off. 151. How long are the men in the mine from the time of entering to coming out ?—Eight hours. 152. Is that eight hours exclusive of their crib-time ?—No; the crib-time is in that time. 153. Is that working three shifts ?—Three or one, it is all the same.

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TENNENT.

154. So men are only seven hours and a half from bank to bank ?—No; seven hours and a half working. 155. How long does it take them from the time they enter the mine till they reach the face? —.\bout a quarter of an hour. 156. Take the Coalbrookdale Mine?—With some it would be a little longer, but twenty minutes would be the outside with any of them. 157. What is the distance from the mouth of the mine to the furthest face in the Coalbrookdale Mine ?—About a mile. 158. Then, it would take the men, say, twenty minutes going to their work and twenty coming back ?—lt would take about that. 159. Then, fifteen minutes for crib added to that forty would make fifty-five—practically an hour? —Yes. 160. How many hours do the men who are working on wages in the mine get paid for ?—Full time. 161. What do you call full time?—A day of eight hours. There is no deduction in the wages. 162. When the men work seven hours and a half do they get paid for crib-time ? —Yes. If they are to get 10s. or lis. a day they get paid that. 163. Are you sure of that ?—Yes. If they are in the mine at all they are paid whether they are working or not. 164. You mean the wages-men ?—Yes. If they are there they get paid. 165. How is the air in the coal-mines in your district ?—Very good, I think. 166. What sort of explosive do they use ?—Compressed powder. 167. Have you ever known of any case in your district where the men were not allowed to go into the mine because of foul air—on account of the mine being considered dangerous ? You have never heard of such a thing?—Not in my time as Inspector. • 168. Are such cases reported to you under the law ? —I do not know of any case in my district of a bad report. lam speaking as Inspector. 169. Take the Blackball Mine, for instance: was that never reported dangerous ?—No, not from gas. 170. From any cause —I did not say gas ? Was that mine never reported dangerous?—No ; I do not think it is dangerous so far. 171. Was it dangerous from any cause?—No. The Blackball is one of the best-ventilated mines that we have. 172. I want to know if that mine was ever considered dangerous? The air has not been considered bad enough to prevent the men entering the mine ? —No, I do not think so. 173. You have never known of such a case? —There are heatings in that mine. 174. Does the management ever prevent a man going into the mine?—No, they always go in regularly. 175. What effect do you think explosives and bad air would have on a man's health ?—Bad air and explosives, and so on, must affect a man's health. 176. You think it would be a serious loss to the management if eight hours from bank to bank were made law—that is, so as not to affect any award of the .Arbitration Court existing at present ? —I do not see that it would make any difference to us. It is practically that as things are. 177. Would it make any difference with the quartz-miners ?—lt could not make any difference in a quartz-mine, because they can only work three shifts of eight hours in twenty-four hours. 178. Mr. Colvin.] Is the air good in the quartz-mines—in the Consolidated and the Keep-it-Dark Mines ? —Very good, I think. According to the workmen's own statements they are thoroughly satisfied. 179. Have you heard a report that the air in the quartz-mines at Reefton is injurious to the men's health if working there for a long time ? They get a disease known as the miner's disease ? —Yes. 180. Working shorter hours ought to improve this state of things—it should be more beneficial to the health of the men than working long hours?—Of course, it gives them less time in the mine. 181. Do you know that the Westport Coal Company, by arrangement, allow the men half an hour from bank to bank—that is, they do not deduct the half-hour or the fifteeen minutes for crib from the men's wages ?—The crib-time is in the eight hours. 182. The men work about seven hours and a half?—Yes. 183. That is the arrangement with the Westport Coal Company '?—As I have stated, the simplest way to get at it with the big collieries is to take the actual working-time of the haulageropes. Then there is a complete stoppage and the whole colliery is shut down for half an hour, or whatever the period allowed for meal-time is. 184. Is it not a fact that the men employed by the Westport Coal Company at Denniston getting the coal at so-much per ton, previous to this coming in, used to work about seven hours a day, get a certain quantity of coal, and then knock off? —That was at a time when they put a restriction on themselves. They were making too good wages, and they restricted themselves to a wage of about 16s. a day. When they had made this they went away. 185. This will not affect the truckers—no extra price will be put on to the trucking ?—Not under the present system, if it does go any further. The only thing is that under the present system the management can keep a miner in the mine till the time is up. 186. Mr. J. Allen.] One statement of yours in answer to Mr. McKenzie was not quite clear to me—the passing of this Bill that we now have before us would not affect the condition of things in his district with regard to output and time : is that so ? If this Bill is passed, will it not make a difference ?—lf the Bill is passed as it stands it will shorten the time and affect the mine-owners materially.

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187. Then, tell us what would be the effect in your district ?—lt would shorten the time of haulage. That time is a dead loss. If we have to further put back the haulage-time half an hour in the eight hours, that is half an hour's dead loss. 188. Would the Bill affect the haulage ? —Certainly. We would have to reduce the time further. We have lost half an hour in the haulage as it stands. Formerly we ran the haulage a full eight hours a day. Then the meal was outside the eight hours, so we ran eight hours and a half. Now it is a strict eight hours, and the meal-time is less the haulage. 189. And if we pass the Bill ?—There will be a further reduction. 190. Mr. R. McKenzie.] How do you get at that ? This Bill says that it shall be eight hours from bank to bank ?—Yes. 191. That is what it is at the present time?—lt is practically that, only the haulage 192. You say that the haulage is seven hours and a half, and it takes half an hour to get into the mine and out again on an average ?—Yes. 193. The men at Denniston, you said, could get into the mine, have their fifteen minutes for crib, and still be out of the mine in eight hours ?—I do not think I told you that. I thought you wanted to get the time over the eight hours. 194. We want to make it eight hours from bank to bank. Your haulage now is seven hours and a half ?—Yes. Formerly it was eight hours. 195. This Bill would make it eight hours from bank to bank, including crib-time?—That would make another half-hour or forty minutes lost haulage. 196. How do you make that out ? You say the men work seven hours and a half. They start at 8 in the morning and knock off at 4 : is that a fact?—The rope starts at 8 in the morning 197. Never mind the rope. What time do the men enter the mine ?—They are at the face at 8 o'clock and leave the face at 4. 198. You now contradict entirely all the evidence you-gave us before. 199. Hon. Mr. McGowan.] The men now do their travelling in their own time ? —Yes. 200. Mr. R. McKevzie.] My point is that the men work practically only eight hours now, and it does not make any difference to them whether this Bill is passed or not. Edwin R. Gkeen examined. (No. 3.) 201. The Chairman.] What is your name?—Edwin R. Green. 202. You are an Inspector of Coal and Gold Mines?—Yes, for the Canterbury, Otago, and Southland Districts. 203. Mr. J. Allen.] Do you know the agreement that is made with the Kaitangata coal-miners —the agreement that they themselves made with their employers lately ?■—l do not know of the agreement, but I know the hours of work. 204. What hours are they working underground?—They leave the bank at 7 o'clock in the morning. The rope starts at half-past 7. By that time all the men are at the face ready to start work. They have half an hour in the middle of the day for crib. The rope stops at 3, and a , change of shift takes place. The men leave the face for the incoming men on the next shift, and the men leaving are on the bank at half-past or before. The men coming on are at the face at halfpast also, and the rope starts again. 205. Is there a loss of time on the rope ? How long does it stop at the change of shift ?— Half an hour. 206. And for crib?—Half an hour also. 207. How many shifts are there ? —Two main shifts and a back shift for repairs. 208. In the two shifts of sixteen hours how much is the loss of time upon the rope?—The time would be more than sixteen hours ; it would be seventeen. There are two shifts of eight hours and a half. 209. There are B|-hour shifts?—Yes, from bank to bank. 210. Out of the eight hours and a half there is half an hour for crib ?—Yes. 211. So the men are eight hours and a half underground from the time they leave the pit's mouth ?—At the outside. Many of the men are underground less than eight hours and a half if they are working near the pit's mouth. 212. Is that by agreement between the men and the owners ? —I do not know of any agreement. 213. You have seen this Bill before us ? —Yes. 214. What effect would it have on the present arrangement at Kaitangata, supposing it came into force at once and no provision was made for allowing the agreement to run ?—lt would shorten the hours at the face by half an hour. 215. Would that mean shortening the rope-running too ?—Per shift it would. 216. That would mean further loss of time?—lt would mean that there would be less coal coming out in any one shift unless the men made it up. 217. How could they make it up?—By increased energy or by shortening their crib-time; that is the only way I can see. 218. How many wages-men are there employed at Kaitangata in proportion to pieceworkers ? —All the men getting coal are on piecework, with the exception of any at deficient places that there may be. 219. How about the truckers?—They are all on contract. 220. The men on the surface ?—Day's wages. 221. With regard to the surface-men, if this Bill is passed will the men be working half an hour less than at present ?—I should say that is so. 222. That is to say, they will be coal-winning less time than now ?—Yes; half an hour, I take it.

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223. What effect would that have on the truckers : would there be less coal to truck ?—lf the miners gave them the coal and the truckers were able to do it it would have no effect; but if the miners did not give thein the coal the number of tubs run would be less, I suppose. 224. Could the miners give them the same amount of coal in less hours ? —As I have already said, the miners could only give it to them by increased energy or shortening crib-time. 225. Do you think that the miners could, by shortening their crib and by increased energy, make up that half-hour ?—I think they work pretty hard now, and I think they want the halfhour for crib. 226. What effect would the limiting of the hours and the decreasing of the output have upon the wages of the men on the surface ?—I suppose they would not take less wages. 227. Supposing the Arbitration Court awarded them less wages for less time, would they like that ?—Naturally, I should think the men would want the same pay. 228. Though they worked shorter hours ?—I would, at any rate, if I were one of them. 229. Leaving wages out of the question, would the limiting of the time down below in coalwinning, and so on, of necessity limit also the work on the surface ? Would the shorter hours worked down below not limit the time worked on the surface ? In other words, is not the work on the surface dependent on the work down below ?—Entirely. 230. Then, if the time worked down below is shortened, will that not shorten the work on the surface too? —I do not know ;it would certainly shorten the men's time of work. The time of the men on the surface goes with that of the men underground. 231. Then, if half an hour is cut off down below it is cut off also on the surface?—Yes, I take it that is so, unless the management give the men something else to do in the half-hour. 232. Is there anything you could suggest if the rope is not working and the machinery not going ?—They might reduce the hands or give those men extra time at other work —labouringwork. Take men off the screens, for instance, and put them on to labouring-work. It might be done. 233. So far as the men are concerned, there would be no work for them to do in the shortened time ?—There is always work to be done, but I do not think that men in a particular occupation would care about going off that and doing something else for half an hour to fill up the time. 234. Are many of the men working on day's wages down below?—lt varies somewhat. I should think that fully a third to two-fifths of the men at Kaitangata are on day's wages; the balance are on contract. 235. Have you any complaints from the men about the time they have to work underground ?—No. 236. Do you know of any complaints in your district about the time the men have to work underground?—l have not had complaints from miners themselves. 237. You have had complaints from somebody else ?—Yes; not complaints in proper form, but one or two of the officials have spoken at different times about the hard work that has to be done, especially long hours and the difficult jobs. 238. Specially long hours ?—Yes. 239. What do you mean by specially long hours ?—Running a double shift without stopping, although only on occasions. 240. I am talking of the ordinary single shifts under the law as it stands : have you heard any complaints?—No. 241. Do you know of any desire to alter it ?—I think nearly all miners are anxious to shorten the hours of labour, if it comes to that. 242. But is it your opinion that they desire to shorten the hours of labour and take less wages?—l have not heard any expression on that point. 243. They would like to have the hours of labour shortened and the wages kept as they are —that is only natural?—lt is human nature. 244. Mr. R. McKenzie.] How many men are employed in the Kaitangata Mine ? —There were 368 on the pay-sheet when I made inquiries last week. 245. How many of them are getting coal at piecework?-—A little over two hundred are getting coal on piecework. 246. Are all the men who are getting coal on piecework ?—ln deficient places they go on shift, driving headings, &c, under the award, and the men then go on day's wages. 247. How is the air in the Kaitangata Mine?—Very fair generally. 248. Is there never any occasion to stop on account of bad air ?—I have never seen work stopped for bad air since I have been Inspector. The men have been drawn out of one or two small corners of the mine for safety, so as not to take any risks. 249. What effect do you think it has on a man's life to be working more than eight hours a day underground where the air is not very good—where explosives are used and coal-dust has to be inhaled ? —I have never seen a miner work more than eight hours underground. 250. But there are men working eight hours and a half, according to your own statement ?— Not actually working. 251. They are in the mine, all the same? —I know a man who is seventy-two years of age in one mine, and numbers of men over sixty. 252. They might live to be a hundred if they had not worked there at all ?—-Yes. 253. Do you know whether life-insurance companies charge miners an extra premium for working underground?—Yes, I believe they do; but as an underground man myself I have always objected to that. I have always thought it wrong that they should penalise the miners. 254. Do they still do it ?—I think so. 255. Do you know whether it has been the experience of actuaries and people who go into this question throughout the world that a miner's life—especially a coal-miner's—is much shorter than

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the average, taken on an average?—l do not know what the actuaries have to say about it, but from what I have seen of their statements I think they are wrong, 256. You say that two-fifths of the men at Kaitangata are working for wages ?—From onethird to two-fifths, I estimate. 257. Could the number of men in the Kaitangata Mine be increased if it were made the law that they must be on eight hours from bank to bank ?—They would have to make provision for them. 258. Could provision be made?—Yes, it could. All the places are filled at present, I may say. 259. But other places could be made ? —They would have to go in for more development. 260. Could the output, by increasing the number of men or by putting on another shift, be kept up to what it is at present?—Yes. 261. Is it a fact that a great number of the wages-men are employed by the week ?—Yes. 262. So that, as far as they are concerned, it does not make a bit of difference how long they work in the mine—tbey are paid all the same?—Yes. 263. Do you know anything about the Allandale Mine ?—Yes. 264. What sort of a mine is it?—lt was in very good order last week. 265. How was it a year or two ago? —On one occasion the air happened to be rather dull. 266. Did you consider it fit for men to work in for more than eight hours a day two or three years ago?—lt is a mine practically free from accident. 267. How about ventilation ?—They have a large shaft which was down 75 ft. when I was there last week. They estimate that it has another 160 ft. to go to reach the bottom. 268. When you reported on this mine a year or two ago did you consider it would tend to lengthen the men's lives by working more than eight hours a day in it ?—On that occasion the air was very dull. 269. You see, the principle of this Bill is to lengthen miners' lives, and not to have the men always in the hands of the doctors. When you made that report a couple of years ago did you consider it would be an advantage to the miners or tend to lengthen their lives if they worked more than eight hours a day ?—lt would have been advantageous to work less than eight hours as the mine was at that date. 270. Supposing this Bill were passed and the time was made eight hours from bank to bank, do you think it would mean a serious loss to the proprietors of the Kaitangata or Allandale Mines ? —Unless extra coal was produced there would certainly be a loss. It must be so if the wages are kept up. 271. You said that, as far as Kaitangata was concerned, they could keep up the present output by putting on more men : could the same be done at Allandale ?—Yes. 272. Those are the principal mines that you have to deal with ?—They are among them. 273. Is it a fact that at any of the coal-mines in your district by increasing the number of men they could maintain their present output?—Yes. 274. So that the management would really cost them no more?—Yes, the same men could manage the mines; but if they put on another shift more officials would be required. 275. If the half-hour were taken off there would be a less quantity of coal come out of the mine : could the truckers be reduced proportionately ?—Yes, they could be reduced, but not so much so. There is generally one trucker to a pair of men, so they could not be reduced much. 276. You have no quartz-mines in your district ? —Yes. 277. What effect would this Bill have on them?—As far as I can see at present, you could not bring in this amendment as the law stands in the main Act. 278. That is a matter for the Crown Law Officers?—As Inspectors we are naturally concerned with the safety of the men. Section 212, clause (3), I think, provides that the men shall change shifts at the face. 279. That is one, or two, or three shifts ? —Yes ; so that if three shifts are working in twentyfour hours and you get 280. This Bill would not make any difference ?—Yes ; if a man changes his shift at the face and it takes him a quarter of an hour going to and from the face, it must be eight hours and a half from bank to bank. 281. The law now is that the men can only be eight hours from face to face ? —The law is that they have to change shift at the face, and there are three shifts in the twenty-four hours, so you must add the time occupied in travelling to and from the face. It makes a difference whether they change at the face or at the mine's mouth, because the men going on shift are told what the mine is like by the men going off. 282. Supposing the men change at the face—they can do it and be on only eight hours from bank to bank all the same ? —You must take the time occupied in travelling. If it took the men an hour to travel it would make nine hours from bank to bank. 283. Not necessarily ? —lf they changed at the face it would. 284. Will you explain to us, Mr. Green, how it is that you cannot alter it so that the time in the mine shall be eight hours and still have eight hours from bank to bank ? —I will try to explain. If the first shift leaves the bank at 8 o'clock, and it takes them half an hour to travel to their place, they are there at half-past 8, and they must be up on the bank again at 4 o'clock. Then the men relieving must leave the bank at 3 in order to be at the face at half-past 3. The first shift leaves the bank at 8, and the next at 3 —that means seven hours only; and if the next shift is seven hours, and the next seven, how are the shifts to dovetail in at the finish ? 285. Could not it be arranged by special provision at the end and beginning of the week?— No; because instead of a twenty-four-hours day it would mean a twenty-one-hours day. That is the only way in which you could work it in ; so that the men would work more than eight hours in twentv-four, which would be another breach of the law, 3—l. 4a,

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286. But the law could be altered ?—The men would not like to start at 8 o'clock one morning and 5 the next, and so on. 287. How do they manage now ?—They break the shift at the end of the week. One shift starts at 8 o'clock every morning for one week, and 4 in the afternoon the next week, and so on. 288. What was the quartz-mine that you were referring to ? —Any quartz-mine; what I have said applies to all quartz-mines. 289. Mr. Millar.] How is the ventilation of the Kaitangata Coal-mine?—Very fair, on the whole. 290. The air is fairly good now ?—Yes. 291. Do they have much trouble with fire ? —Yes. There have always been fires in the mine, and always will be, I suppose. 292. All the work there is done on contract for the drives, stone drives, &c. ?—Yes. 293. Pretty well the whole of the work in the mine is by contract, with the exception of the surface work and at a few deficient places ?—Yes. 294. That is pretty general throughout Otago ?—Yes.

• Thursday, 24th July, 1902. Henky Betts examined. (No. 4.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your name ?—My name is Henry Betts. 2. Do you belong to any union of miners?—l have worked as a miner for ten years, and have been living in a goldfields district for seventeen years. I refer to the Inangahua District. 3. Were you an officer of any miners' union ? —I have been president of the Inangahua Miners' Union for a period of two years, and have been secretary to the same union for the last two years. lam still the secretary to the union. It has a membership of six hundred. 4. Is it a coal-miners' union?—No ; a quartz-miners'union. Of course, there are coal-miners who are members of that union. There are several small coal-mines about Reefton, and the men employed in those mines are members of the union. 5. Have you read Mr. Guinness's amending Bills —the Coal-mines Bill and the Gold-mines Bill?—I just glanced at them before I left Reefton a week or so ago. The Chairman : This is one of the Bills ; they are both to the same effect. [Bill handed to witness.] 6. Mr. Guinness.] You understand that the object of that Bill is to strike out the words that were inserted in the Act of last session, "excluding meal-times"? — Yes, "exclusive of meal-times." 7. What is the usual time taken by the miners for their meal or crib time, as it is called, in, 'we will say, the quartz-mines?—Generally about twenty minutes. There is no regular time fixed as far as I know. From twenty minutes to half an hour. 8. Can you say with regard to coal-mines? —I could not say anything in connection with coalmines, except the small mines about the Reefton district. 9. Do you know whether any regular time is taken in those small coal-mines?—They are generally worked by parties of men who own the mines themselves, and these take longer, I think. 10. Since the passing of the amending Mining Act of last session providing for eight hours from bank to bank, exclusive of meal-time, has any reduction in the time the miners are underground been observed? —No, certainly not. In one or two instances the Act of last session would rather increase the hours of labour if it were given effect to. 11. How? —I have in my mind at least two mines that have been working the men longer than eight hours and a half underground, and the very reason why in one instance—l am speaking now of the Golden Fleece, a mine in my district —we have not asked for the enforcement of the Act in respect to that mine is that it would increase the time the men have to work in other mines. In the Golden Fleece Mine the men have to travel a distance of about, I should say, a mile and a quarter to reach their working-places—that is, from the mouth of the tunnel. Of course, to do that they start at 8 o'clock —I am speaking of the day shift—and I suppose it would be a quarter past 8, or possibly twenty minutes past, before they reached their places. They are relieved generally inside—l mean down in the lowest level, not at the faces; and by the time the afternoon shift gets in to relieve them it is twenty minutes past 4. When those men reach the mouth of the tunnel again it is practically 5 o'clock. That is, they are nine hours underground. In other mines, such as the Keep-it-Dark and the Progress, they leave the brace at 8 o'clock, and are all up by about a quarter past 4 ; that is really eight hours and a quarter. If the Act of last session were given effect to those men would be underground eight hours and a half in these mines that I have mentioned— i.e., the Keep-it-Dark and the Progress. 12. If the words " exclusive of meal-time" are repealed, would there be any difficulty in employing the men only eight hours underground?—No difficulty whatever—not the slightest. 13. What do you say is the language of the Act of last session which compels these men to work more than eight hours underground ?—I say it would have been better if it had been left alone and we were allowed to work on as we were working, as far as the Act of last session is concerned. 14. What is the language in the Act that compels you to work more than eight hours?—The words " exclusive of meal-times." Those very words. If the words were omitted, as is proposed in the Bill, that would be suitable.

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15. Mr. W. Fraser.] You referred just now to " working-hours " : do you mean the hours the men are at work, or the hours below ground ?—I take it that a miner commences work as soon as he leaves the fresh, pure air of the surface— i.e., when he enters the mine. 16. What I want to know is, did you refer to the working-hours, or the hours the men are below the ground ?—I referred to the hours underground—the hours a worker is away from the surface. 17. You stated that crib-time was from a quarter of an hour to twenty minutes ? —From twenty minutes to half an hour. 18. From twenty minutes to half an hour, then. Did your refer to contract work or wages work?—Both. Contractors and wages-men generally take about the same time —in fact, they generally have crib together in the mines. 19. Did the legislation of last year in any way affect the output in the district that you are cognisant of?—I do not think so. lam absolutely certain it did not. 20. You said just now that that legislation has not been observed ?—No, it has not been observed. 21. If it had been observed, would it in any way have affected the working-hours, and therefore the output ?—lt would have affected the working-hours, as I have said. I quoted the Golden Fleece Mine as an instance. It certainly would have shortened the hours in that particular mine by about half an hour a day. In other mines it would have increased the hours by about a quarter of an hour a day. 22. The working-hours ?—Yes. I mean the Keep-it-Dark and the Progress Mines. The latter is the largest mine in our district, employing from 230 to 250 men. 23. Then, I am to understand that before the Act of last session was passed the workinghours were less than eight hours? —No ; most decidedly not. 24. What were the working-hours ?—I said that, as far as the Golden Fleece Mine was concerned, the hours of labour were practically nine hours— i.e., that the men went in at 8 o'clock in the morning, and by the time they reached the mouth of the tunnel at night it was 5 o'clock. In the case of the Keep-it-Dark I stated that the men left the brace to go down at 8 o'clock, and it was a quarter past 4 when they reached the surface again. The case of the Progress Mine was similar to the Keep-it-Dark. 25. That was the position of matters prior to the legislation of last year? —.A.nd is still the position, because we have taken no steps to enforce the legislation of last year as far as the Golden Fleece Mine is concerned, for the simple reason that if we did in that case it would affect the miners in other mines; it would increase their hours— i.e., the time they are below the ground. That is, in the case of the Keep-it-Dark and the Progress a quarter of an hour per day. 26. Mr. Guinness.] That is, assuming half an hour is allowed for meal-time ?—Yes. 27. It does not say that in the Act, you know ?—No, it does not. 28. Mr. W. Fraser.] Coming back to the question I asked you, the men have not started the practice in any of the mines there of working eight hours at the face?—No. It has never been the practice. When I first went to work at a quartz-mine seventeen years ago it was not the practice t'o work eight hours at the face. 29. How long did they work ? —About seven hours and a half at the face. 30. Is the same time worked now ? —About seven hours and a half; of course, about five hours and a half on Saturday, when there is a short shift. The Arbitration Court awarded that. You asked me in respect to the output ? 31. Yes. It has been asserted by other witnesses that the result of last year's legislation, and more especially the result of the proposed legislation, would be to decrease the working-hours, and therefore affect the output. I wanted to know your view of that?—My view is this : About four years ago the Arbitration Court reduced the Saturday shift by two hours, and it never affected the output in any possible way. The men actually did as much work in the six hours they were working on Saturdays as they would have done if they had been working eight. 32. Were they working on wages or contract?—On wages. My opinion is that by shortening the hours of labour for miners you would not in any way affect the output. I believe there would be equally as much work done, and the work would be done as efficiently. 33. Mr. J. Allen.] Is there anything in the Act of last year that fixes the crib-time at any particular time? —I do not think last year's Act does fix it at any particular time. 34. Does it say half an hour?—l believe it says " exclusive of meal-times." 35. But does it say any time at all ? Here is the Act; please read it ?—lt does not mention any particular hour. It just says, " exclusive of meal-times " —clause 5, section (1). 36. Very well. Then, will you please explain to the Committee how, in any case, the Act of last year can increase the hours underground ?—I did explain. 37. Then kindly explain again ?—I explained that it was eight hours exclusive of meal-times, and that the meal-time usually took from twenty minutes to half an hour. I pointed out distinctly and clearly that in one mine— i.e., the Golden Fleece—the men were underground for practically nine hours. In the case of the Keep-it-Dark Mine they are underground eight hours and a quarter ; in the case of the Progress, eight hours and a quarter ; and in some few instances eight and a half. 38. We will take the Golden Fleece Mine, in which you say that under the old law they are underground nine hours : what is the crib-time in the Golden Fleece ?—From twenty minutes to half an hour. 39. Under the law as passed last year what would be the position of the Golden Fleece miners ? —The result would be to decrease the time underground by half an hour. 40. How do you make it out to be only half an hour ? You say the crib-time is from twenty minutes to half an hour ?—Yes.

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[HENRY BETTS.

41. Then, the decrease would be from thirty to forty minutes : would it or would it not ? — The employers could compel the men to stop underground eight hours and a half. 42. Under what law ?—The law of last session. 43. Will you point out the section under which an employer could do it ? —Section 5. 44. Read it, please ?—Clause 5, section (1) : " Subject to the provisions of the Act, a miner shall not be employed underground for a longer period in any day than eight hours, exclusive of meal-times." The words " exclusive of meal-times " qualify the whole thing. 45. But you said that the meal-time was from twenty minutes to half an hour: if the mealtime was twenty minutes, what would be the time of a miner underground, by law—how much less than it was before ?—lf it was twenty minutes the time underground, of course, would be eight hours and twenty minutes. 46. Is not that forty minutes less than before?—Yes—that is, if they have only twenty minutes for crib. 47. That is so. Now we will come to the Keep-it-Dark. You said that the time was eight hours and a quarter : what is the crib-time at the Keep-it-Dark ?—Half an hour, I suppose; about half an hour. 48. If you do not know definitely, please say so ?—I might explain to the Committee that there is no definite time fixed for crib-time in the mines, as I have stated. I gave it as my opinion, based on my experience, that the time was from twenty minutes to half an hour. 49. Can you tell us what the crib-time is at the Keep-it-Dark or the Progress Mine ?—I should say half an hour. 50. You are not sure ?—Yes, I am practically certain. 51. Is the eight hours and a quarter that you mentioned from pit-mouth to pit-mouth ?—Yes, that is so. The hours of labour that lam referring to are from pit-mouth to pit-mouth. 52. They have never been working eight hours at the face?—Never. 53. What is there in the law to compel the miners to work eight hours at the face ?—There is nothing in the law that compels them to work eight hours at the face. 54. You say they have been working seven hours and a half at the face ?—Yes; and half an hour for crib-time makes the eight hours. Then there is the time taken up in going from and returning to the surface. 55. With reference to change of shift, does the work stop when the shifts are changed ? — Most decidedly. 56. For how long ? —lt just depends on the distance the men work from the surface. The work always stops when they change shifts. 57. For how long?—You know that miners have peculiar customs, and some mines are different from others. I should say for a quarter of an hour, anyway. 58. That quarter of an hour is time in which the miners are not working ?—lf they are not working they are talking to one another about the work. 59. That is not work at the face ?—lt is practically work at the face. 60. Do you call talking work at the face?—Yes; talking about the work. Although they are not at the face they are talking about the work—what they have done, and what they have to do, and so on. 61. Do you consider that work at the face ?—lt is undoubtedly part of the work of the mine. 62. You are speaking of gold-mines only ?—I think my remarks would apply to coal-mines also, although I have not had a great deal of experience of them. 63. Did your remarks refer to pieceworkers or wages-men ?—To both. 64. In the case of the pieceworkers, if their hours are reduced, will the men expect that their wages will continue as at present—l ask you this as secretary of a union ?—Most decidedly they expect it. 65. They want to work shorter hours for the same wages ?—Exactly. 66. Did you explain that you think that in a shorter time the miners could put out the same amount of stuff?—Certainly, from my own practical experience. 67. What limit would you put upon the decrease in time ? By how much could the time be decreased and the output not reduced ?—I believe, an hour a day. 68. You told us that the men in the Keep-it-Dark Mine are working seven hours and a half at the face : do you think that they could put out in six hours and a half as much as they are doing in seven hours and a half ?—Yes; because they could work harder in a shorter time, with less injury to their health. Persons working underground are working under very bad and unhealthy conditions—i.e., in bad air permeated with smoke. If they are permitted to work shorter hours I will guarantee that their output will be equally the same, and the work will be as efficiently done. 70. Will you guarantee that ?—Yes. 71. And you place the limit at one hour less than the present time?—Yes, I should say so. 72. Are there day-wages men working on the surface of these mines—either on the surface, or in the mines, or anywhere about them ?—Did you take my previous remarks to refer only to contractors ? 73. I was asking you about pieceworkers only then ?—The same remarks apply to day-wages men. 74. Are there day-wages men working at these mines ?—They are mostly day-wages men who are employed there. 75. Not pieceworkers ?—Very few pieceworkers. 76. Any down below?—Very few. 77. Then, your remarks apply more to day-wages men than to pieceworkers ?—To both. 78. With regard to day-wages men, do you think that they too could put out, though working an hour a day less, the same amount as they have been putting out ?—I think so.

HENRY BETTS.

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79. You do not think there has been any attempt to limit the output'?—l do not think so. 80. You do not know of any case?—l do not. My experience is this :If a man knows that he has got only a certain time to work underground, and those hours are reasonable—-they should be shorter than they are at present—he will work harder and do more work in a given time. It has been proved in connection with the short shift on Saturday that shortening the hours worked has not increased the cost of the output in any way. 81. Now, with regard to day-wages men on the surface, are there any on the surface—winding, hauling, or in the office ?—Very few. 82. Take the office hands: I do not suppose their time will depend on the time of the men, will it ?—No, I do not think so. 83. You do not suggest that their time should be shortened ?—I do not suggest that the time should be shortened for surface workers. 84. Not for any of them ? —Not if they are employed on the surface; but I would like to point out that there are engine-drivers employed underground, and I think their time should be shortened the same as the miners'. 85. Let us deal with the surface engine-driver : do you suggest his time should be shortened ? —No, I do not. 86. Then, will you tell us what he is to do in the hour that you suggest should be struck off the time of the men underground? You say that the men underground can work an hour less and turn out the same output ?—Yes. 87. Then, will you tell us what the engine-driver is to do during that hour ?—There will be nothing for him to do, unless he has some baling or some work to do in connection with the shaft or the engine. There is generally something of that kind to be done by engine-drivers. 88. Now, I ask you, as a practical miner, if the shortening of the hours meant a decrease of wages to the men, would they, in your opinion, prefer existing hours and existing wages or shortened hours and less wages ?—I could not say. I would not like to give an opinion on that matter. But I know this : that when the Consolidated Company started operations in our part the wages paid were 10s. a day, and the hours of labour were longer; but the men are now getting 9s. 6d. a day, and are working shorter hours. I do not think that they would revert to the old state of things. 89. That is a practical illustration. What were the hours when the miners got 10s. a day ?— I should say, four hours a week longer than at present. 90. Four hours a week longer than they are working now ?—The hours were reduced by two on the Saturday shift, and by half an hour a day on two shifts; that is four hours and a half a week. 91. How much less do they get now ?—Sixpence a day for two classes of work, and the same for four classes. 92. W 7 hat number of hours a week do they work now ?—You mean at the different classes of work ? 93. An average week's work?—lf you count the time from when the men leave the surface till they get back to it, the hours worked per week would be at the very least about forty-nine a week at present. 94. And they were working fifty-three and a half?—Yes. A surface-man can leave his work. He is in the fresh air all the time, and as soon as 4 o'clock comes he can drop his tools and get away. A miner in some instances has to climb ladders, walk along drives and tunnels, and be hauled up in a cage. It is a very different thing altogether with him. 95. First of all, with regard to gold-mines : Can an increase in the cost of production of gold lead to an increased price for the gold in any way ? Supposing you have got to pay more for getting the gold, is there any possibility of your selling it for a higher price ?—I think they get the highest possible price for gold now. I believe the large British companies do. 96. If they are getting the highest possible price now, will any increase in the cost of production have to come off the profits of the mine ?—I suppose it will, if there is any increased cost; but I am practically certain there will not be. 97. Now, with regard to coal, I ask you the same question : Is there a possibility of increasing the price of coal to the consumer ?—I do not think so. 98. If there is no possibility of increasing the cost to the consumer, will any increase in the cost of production also come off the profits of the mine ?—-I may say that a lot of the increased cost of production is caused in many instances by bad management. The Chairman here informed the witness that this matter must not be introduced into the evidence. 99. Mr. Bennet.] Is it the custom for the men in the quartz-mines in which you have been working to change shift at the face ?—No. 100. The reason why I asked that is that one of the Inspectors stated here that that was the rule in the south ?—lt is not the rule in the Inangahua district. 101. Mr. W. Fraser.] It is the law?—lt is not the law. There is a provision in the Mining Act—and I believe a similar provision in the Coal-mines Act (and I think they are very necessary provisions)—that anything of a dangerous nature should be reported. I believe that is absolutely necessary. Section 212 of the Mining Act, I think. There is nothing in the Act to state that the relief shall take place at the face, and, as a matter of fact, during the whole of my experience in the Reefton district it never has been the custom to change at the face. I might explain that since the advent of these new companies the system of work has been different from what it used to be when the old local companies were working the mines. I might be working in a stope to-day and in a drive to-morrow, and do not know who my relieving mates are to be. lam simply under the control of the shift-boss Igo wherever he tells me to go, and if lam a practical miner, as I

I.—4a

HBNEY BETTS.

should be I will see that lam safe in my face. But the unfortunate part of it is that a number emnlotd nF™ J" thr ° Ugh P u eI " SOnS wh ° haVe not * ad expereuce being ThSXf T 6 K f q T 6S an T Waming aboUt a face if he is a P ractical miner" He will see that the face is safe before he works in it. bo BS lo Yofwii?«iT aW - ] f Whatab ° ut misfires ?-They should certainly be reported to the shifttn £ n fW see fi b yf fer ence to the Mining Act that if there is a misfire a miner is not supposed to go near that misfire for a certain time. The shift-boss is really the responsible man under ground as far as the working of the faces is concerned; and my experience has been th"nd I think that if you get practical miners before you they will tell you the same thing : that if there is anything wrong in their face they report it to their shift-boss. Then he reports to the relieving experience P ™ dan g erous fa °es who have had the greatest amount of practical minerfwirWhfrfnf 1 ! I r° Uld **? *2 *?■ ? tneSS " thei ' 6 is dissatisfaction among the miners wuh the Act of last session ?-Certamly there is a great deal of dissatisfaction in having comes T 6d ' 6XCIUSIVe ° f meal " tlmes '" That is where the whole of the dissatisfaction Oh i^'tJ° U said that ' as a ru ! e : n ° ne of *e miners count the eight hours from face to face ?- Un, no, the men do not work eight hours in the face. w v, 1 B M f ° re the Ac * was P assed last session the bank-to-bank principle was pretty well estaSnlV %l- was f l V°t,f etty well established. As I have already pointed outfif the men had the usual crib-time of half an hour they would have eight hours and a half whereas m some mines before the Act was passed, and at present also, they are underground actually only eight hours and a quarter; because the union has never tried to enforce the Act of last session in woufof ,IShH 6 - G Mm f e i 1° Whioh l haVe referred ' for the reason that by so doings theGold™ vi ?fwt If 6 I" 3 ° f l n hom ' m r* 68 ' aUh ° U S h lt mi S ht decreaBe ho «s & in the Golden Fleece by half an hour. Consequently the men decided to wait and try to get Parliament to alter the Act of last session by striking out the words "exclusive of meal-times " 106. Would it be better, then, to repeal the Act of last session and go back to the old system ? —No. We would rather have those words struck out. 107 But according to your evidence, as I understand it, the V worked less hours under the old system than they would it this Act of last year were enforced ?-Yes, that is so with regard to some of the mines 1 wish to make it perfectly clear, so that there shall be no misunderstanding, that no alteration has been made in any respect with the hours of labour since the Act was passed 1 hey are going on exactly the same as they were prior to the passing of the Act last year 108 Are the miners satisfied with the present system—that is, when the Act is ignored in respect to hours?-No, certainly not. They want shorter hours. They recognise that their occupation is an unhealthy one and a dangerous one, and they want to get as much pure air and sunhour's of labour ° an ' think SPeCial legislation should be P assed to regulate their 109. Do you not think that is a matter for the Arbitration Court ?—No ; I think it is a matter tor the Mouse to take into consideration. At present we are working under an industrial agreement Rather than have any bother and turmoil in connection with the Arbitration Court we decided to enter ifito an industrial agreement, and to rely on getting justice done us by the Legislature 110. Is there any specification of the hours in the agreement ?—Yes, there is 111. What are the hours specified ?—Eight hours for five days in the week, and six hours on Saturday. 112. Does that mean from face to face, or bank to bank ?—lt does not state. 113. Was that question raised when you entered into the industrial agreement ?—No 114. Mr. Guinness.] Was the Act of last session passed when you entered into that agreement?—Yes. 8 115. You made it after the Act was passed?—Yes. 116. Mr. Herries.] How is it that no discussion was raised about the matter?—A discussion was raised, but we relied on the Legislature doing us justice as far as the hours of labour were concerned. Of course, the agreement is vague ; it is not explicit; and we wish, if possible to get along quietly and reasonably with the employers. As a union, we do not want to be continually frightening them, and we thought it would be better, in order to smoothe over matters to enter into this agreement for the time being, and to come to Parliament and get it to regulate the hours of labour, as we think it should. It has done so in respect to factories, and surelv should in respect to mines. J 117. Is any overtime allowed under your agreement ?—No, no overtime rates are allowed. 118. Is any overtime worked ?—Yes, at times ; Sunday work and overtime. 119. How was it that you did not put in overtime when you made the agreement?— 1 may say that we have the matter under consideration, and it is our intention before very long to approach the various companies in connection with this matter, and to ask them to enter into an industrial agreement in respect to the rate of pay for overtime and Sunday 120. You say that, if last year's Act were enforced, in some mines the men would be working tor nine hours ?—No ; they could not be working nine hours. 121. Nine hours from bank to bank?—Only eight hours and a half from bank to bankthat is, under the Act of last session. It could not possibly be more than eight and a half unless the employers took upon themselves to increase the time for meals—i.e., an employer could turn round under the existing law and make crib-time an hour instead of half an hour. 122. How do you arrive at that eight hours and a half ?—Bv the fact that the men have half an hour for crib.

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123. But does your eight hours and a half include the time from leaving the face and going up to the surface ?—Yes, eight hours and a half from surface to surface. 124. If you had an overtime clause, could not you claim half an hour overtime?—No, I do not think so. We certainly could not under the Act of last session. 125. The law says it must be eight hours from bank to bank?—Eight hours exclusive of mealtimes. 126. You want half an hour's extension of time?—We want the reference to meal-times struck out. 127. That would make a difference of only half an hour?—Yes; we would be satisfied with that. A miner is not very anxious to work overtime. 128. Mr. Lang.] I understood you to say, Mr. Betts, that the miners would rather rely on Parliament than the Arbitration Court for the hours of working: is that correct? —I said that in this particular instance we wish to get along smoothly with the companies, and practically agreed to everything in the reference, except the hours of labour; and we thought that rather than bring the Arbitration Court into requisition it would be better for us to enter into this agreement, and to rely on Parliament doing something in the interests of the workers employed in the mines. That was the position. 129. You had more confidence in Parliament than in the Arbitration Court ?—Not necessarily so. We did not want the turmoil and trouble and bad feeling caused by the Arbitration Court being brought into requisition. 130. Then, the Arbitration Court causes a certain amount of turmoil and trouble?—All these disputes do for a time. 131. Mr. R. McKenzie.] How many men are there employed underground by the Reefton Consolidated Mines Company ?—There are two companies—the Progress Mine and Consolidated Company. 132. How many men are there working underground in the Progress Mine ?—I should say two hundred men. 133. What is the depth of the shaft ?—I could not tell you, but it is over a thousand feet. 134. How long do you reckon it takes to lower the miners ?—Not any time at all. 135. How many go down at a time?—Six in each cage. 136. Does it take the cage five minutes to go down and come up again ?—I do not think so. 137. How long do you think it takes?—l could not tell you; it is a very short time. 138. Is it a fact that the whole of these two hundred men are only eight hours and a half from the time they leave the surface till they are out again, exclusive of the half-hour for crib ?— Some are longer than that underground. The miners hold that their working-time really commences from the time they leave the surface. I may point out that the Mining Act looks at that as well. It recognises that a miner is responsible for anything he does from the time he enters the mine till he leaves it. He is practically in the employ of the owner of the mine while he is underground. 139. You know something about coal-mines as well as quartz-mines ?—Yes. 140. Do you think a face in a coal-mine is as dangerous as a face in a quartz reef ?—I think it is more dangerous in some instances. 141. You stated that it has never been the custom in Reefton for the men to change at the face ?—No, it never has been. 142. Are you aware whether the owners or managers of the mines at Reefton have any objection to the Bill becoming law ?—Decidedly they will have an objection to it—no doubt about that. 143. Do you think that objection would be well grounded ?—I do not think so. 144. Do you think that if it became law it would be likely to reduce the output by a substantial quantity ?—I do not think it would alter the result one iota. 145. Is it a fact that the engine-man on the surface and the brace-man and other men there are employed and paid by the day or the week?—The industrial agreement fixes the wages for the engine-driver at 13s. 4d. a shift. 146. But is it a fact that, whether the wages are fixed by the Arbitration Court or not, the men I have mentioned are employed by the week or by the day?—l think that according to the industrial agreement they are in the same position as the miners—they are employed by the day. 147. Do you mean to tell me that the engine-man at the Progress Mine, for instance, is employed by the day ?—There might be a special arrangement made between the engine-drivers and the owners of the mine. 148. What I want to bring out is this: this man occupies a responsible position, and if he leaves at a day's notice there will be some difficulty in filling it, so that, as a matter of fact, a company will protect itself by engaging him for a long time ?—Yes ; I know that, as a rule, the mine-owners try to keep good men when they have them as winders. 149. Assuming that the brace-man and the engine-man are employed by the week, do you think it would increase the cost of management on the surface if this Bili were brought into law ? —Not the slightest. 150. It would not have any appreciable effect? —Not the slightest. As a matter of fact, now, under our industrial agreement, although the hours worked underground do not affect the men employed on the surface, such as engine-drivers and brace-men, yet these men work exactly the same hours as miners and get paid for their shift all the same. Under the present state of affairs they work six hours on Saturday, and get 13s. 4d. for a six-hours shift, the same as for an ordinary shift. No deduction is made in their wages on that account. 151. Coming to the question of the time taken for the meal, you said that the time taken by the men in the Reefton district is generally from twenty minutes to half an hour, but in the case of pieceworkers the men can please themselves —they need not take any time for crib at all unless they like ?—Yes, that is so.

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[HENRY BETTS.

152. Can they be taken to the surface and go out of the mine when they like ?—No ; they are supposed to stop in the mine till the proper hour for leaving off. 153. So that it does not matter whether a man finishes what he considers a satisfactory day's work or not, he has still to stay in the mine till the other men leave ?—Yes. 154. You said, in answer to Mr. Allen, that you thought the English companies get the highest possible price for gold : how do you make that out ?—I believe they ship it direct to the Old Country. 155. Do they not have to pay insurance on it?—Yes, and freight. 156. Do you think that if there were a mint in this colony they would get more for the gold than they do now ?—I have not gone into the question, but am inclined to think the gold would bring more if there was a mint in New Zealand. 157. A foreign country wanting gold from this country would have to pay insurance and freight on the gold, whereas the producer, practically, has to pay the insurance and freight now?— Yes. 158. Is it your opinion that if there was a mint in New Zealand gold would fetch more here ? —Yes ;it would be worth more to the country—no doubt about it. 159. When were the hours of labour last fixed at Reefton by the Arbitration Court ?—About four years ago. 160. Prior to the passing of the Act of last session ?—Yes. 161. So that until there is another award of the Arbitration Court made nobody can alter the hours you are working now, unless they are altered by Parliament or the Arbitration Court ? —Yes, that is so. 162. Hon. Mr. McGowan.] Are there any mines in your district, Mr. Betts, working twentyfour hours a day at ordinary mining-work ?—No; the practice is to work two shifts—the day and afternoon shifts. 163. Is it not a fact that the Act and the amendment are to a certain extent at variance—l mean where the Act defines labour as being from bank to bank, but the miners themselves, under the award, are longer than eight hours below the ground ?—Certainly they are. I believe if the words were struck out that are proposed to be struck out the whole difficulty would be got over. 164. I want to have your opinion on record in regard to this : Supposing the law was strictly carried out of eight hours from bank to bank, do you think that the information given to the shiftboss by the outgoing shift would be quite sufficient for the incoming shift in each case ? —• Certainly. 165. Have you any knowledge of other districts than Reefton in regard to this point ?—I have not a great knowledge; but I have a little in connection with other districts, and I think the same thing would apply. 166. Do you know that it applies to any other districts ? You say that in the Reefton district the shift going off informs the shift-boss of the state of the ground, and he informs the incoming shift: do you know whether that is the case anywhere else than Reefton ?—I could not say for a fact, but I know that is absolutely the case at Reefton. 167. You do not know in regard to any other place?—No. 168. As a miner yourself, would you not prefer to see the mates that you are relieving and know from them the state of the ground? —No. 169. You would rather take it second-hand? —I would rather receive my instructions from the shift-boss. 170. Information is not instructions. You would rather have it from the shift-boss ? —Yes, most decidedly. It is my duty as a miner, according to this Act—the measure you have placed on the statute-book —to report to some one in authority over me. 171. If I were going to follow you as a miner I would rather see you than be told by the shiftboss ? —But would you know that you were going to follow me ? In the Reefton district the men are changed to a large extent. 172. What is the cause of their being changed?—Goodness knows ; Ido not. In the Globe Mine, for instance —the largest we have there—the men are constantly being changed from one face to another. 173. Is the ground rich?—lt varies. In some places the ore is of poor quality; in other places it is of good quality. They work the mines according to how the battery is shaping. Some days they work on poor stone, and in order to keep up their average return they go from the poor stone to the good. And who is going to look after the safety of the men in cases of this kind ? I say that the authority and the onus must be thrown on the owner of the mine and his officers. 174. In your opinion, where a mine is working three shifts under the law of eight hours from bank to bank, the relieving should take place at the surface : is that your opinion ?—Certainly; but it would be worked in another way. The relief could take place underground all the same without any additional time being added to the men's work. 175. Do you think the men working on contract would like the hours shortened? —Most decidedly. It would certainly apply to contractors the same as to wages-men. Contractors have no desire to work long hours, unless it is in the Waihi Mine. 176. Why do they work long hours now if, as you say, contractors prefer to work short ones ? —I do not know that they do. 177. Is it to the advantage of a contractor to have his hours shortened the same as it is to a man who is receiving day-wages ? —Undoubtedly it is to his advantage. lam absolutely certain that contractors should be placed in the same position as wages-men. I do not see why they should be placed in a different position. 178. Was the amendment passed last session operative or inoperative ?—lt was inoperative absolutely in our district.

HENRY BETTS.]

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179. Then, there is another difficulty which I would like to know how you would get over. The Arbitration Court has decided that all the men working in, on, or about a mine are classed as miners except ordinary labouring-men ; and if miners are working eight hours from bank to bank, what about the engineer ?—I am not aware that the Arbitration Court has done that. 180. lam so informed by the northern union ?—I hope it is so. 181. I will read an extract or two from the secretary's statement. He says, "We agree with the first portion of Mr. Guinness's amendment re striking out the words ' exclusive of mealtime 'in clause 5 of the amendment of 1901, as this would agree with the award of the .Arbitration Court, which provides for eight hours per day, inclusive of meal-time. The words ' exclusive of meal-time ' would be unworkable, as it would mean that the men would require to work the eight hours at a stretch without any meal at all, seeing that when a mine is in full work it is worked continuously for three eight-hour shifts in the twenty-four hours. The latter part of Mr. Guinness's amendment is, we beg to point out, in contravention of the awards of the Court, as Mr. Justice Cooper has ruled that the word ' miner ' included all men working in or about a mine, with the exception of surface labourers only." 182. Well, now, how would you get over that difficulty about the eight hours if the men are all to be up in the bank in eight hours ? —Which difficulty ? 183. If the man lets them down and the same man remains there until they come up, and they are only eight hours from bank to bank, he is there after them—he must be ?—Oh, no; he does not work any longer hours than a miner. He goes on at 8 o'clock and knocks off at 4 ; when the miners reach the surface he knocks off too. 184. Taking the bank-to-bank time : supposing you have tw y o hundred men to take down a shaft 1,000 ft. deep, how long would it take for these two hundred men to go down and get to the face if the face were a mile and a quarter away ?—Under half an hour. 185. The meal-time would be from twenty minutes to half an hour ?—Yes. 186. Supposing we divide twenty minutes and thirty minutes into twenty-five and twentyfive, that would give fifty minutes ?—Yes. 187. I understand that includes going up as well as going down?—Of course, some of the men are down in two minutes. When I referred to the men going down I also referred to those going up, because as soon as one cage-load goes down the men are in the chamber and they step into the cage and go up. 188. What are the present hours on the surface, roughly ?—I should say seven hours and a half. 189. This would make the time seven hours and ten minutes ?—Yes; in some instances more, and in others less, it depending on the distance the men have to go. 190. I only want a rough average; that would be about right ?—Yes, as far as the shafts are concerned. 191. Then, I take it, you will agree with me that, instead of the time being seven hours and a half as at present, the men would be there seven hours and ten minutes ? The result would be that the men would do twenty minutes' less work for their employer in a day than at present ?— Yes ; that is, if you call work for the employers work at the face only. 192. Mr. Golvin.] I would like you to explain what you meant by saying that your union did not want the turmoil and trouble caused by bringing a case before the Arbitration Court, and that consequently you entered into an agreement with the employers. I understand that you had no objection to the Arbitration Court, but that it was to save expense and trouble that you made the agreement ?—Yes, that was one reason. The only thing preventing us from entering into the agreement was the hours of labour; we wanted them shortened, but we thought it was better, as the employers were willing to agree to almost everything we asked, for us to enter into an industrial agreement and trust to Parliament, because it would do away with a lot of ill-feeling that necessarily is engendered when arbitration cases are before the Court, and would also save a lot of expense to the union, for on the West Coast it costs us a terrible lot of money to get the Court there, and to bring witnesses, and so on. 193. From your position as secretary of the union you know the feelings of the miners in regard to the eight hours from bank to bank ?—Yes ; I am brought into contact with every one of them. 194. And you are positive that the miners are anxious that this clause " exclusive of mealtimes" should be struck out?—Most decidedly. 195. In other words, that the proposed amendment should be made ?—That is so. 196. The men believe it is to the benefit of themselves and their health that the amendment should be made?—Certainly. 197. Mr. W. Fraser.] Is the industrial agreement entered into between the miners and the employers for any particular period ?—Yes ; two years. 198. Did you enter into it with the view of legislation being passed to alter it during its currency, or afterwards? —During its currency, certainly. 199. You say that the agreement was for a period of two years : is that two years from now ? —From last January. 200. I will put the question again, so that there may be no misunderstanding : Do the miners hope that legislation will be passed which will affect that agreement during its currency ?—Yes, they do. They fully expected that the hours of labour in mines should be regulated by Act of Parliament. 201. During the currency of the agreement?—Yes. 202. Then, did they disagree with subclause (4) of section 5 of last year's Act, where it is provided that " so long as such award continues in force this section shall be read and construed subject to such award " ?—Certainly they did. 4—l. 4a.

L— 4a.

[henry betts.

203. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Is the agreement one under the Conciliation and .Arbitration .Act, or a private one ? —lt is an industrial agreement. 204. Mr. J. Allen.] It has all the force of the Act?—Yes. 205. Mr. R. McKenzie.] What has been your experience for the last twenty years of working underground on the health of the miners?—lf I had not left it I would not have been here to-day. I had to leave it, although a young man, because it was affecting my lungs and my heart. 206. I did not mean you personally. Take, say, five hundred men working underground in the Reefton district, and compare them, from your own personal knowledge, with five hundred men working on the surface in the same district for the same time : what has been the effect on them ?—To send a large number to the cemetery. Scarcely a month goes by that we have not to make a subscription to provide for some man with a family —a young family in many instances— who is suffering from a miners' complaint. He cannot work, he has lost his wind, his heart is dilated, and he is practically in consumption. 207. What is the state of the ventilation in the Reefton mines generally ?—Since Mr. Tennent has been Inspector of Mines there it has been different from what it used to be. There has been an improvement in it; and I believe the organization of the miners' union has had something to do with that. 208. I asked that question about ventilation with the view of coming to this point— 'i.e., taking instructions from the boss at the face. Is it a fact that in many mines they do not allow it to be worked ?—I can say, from my own knowledge, that not long since men had to knock off work through bad ventilation. I refer to the Wealth of Nations Mine. In my opinion, a jet of water should be continually spraying on the boring-hole. The dust from the rock-borers is very injurious to the men's health. 209. Do you consider it is safer for the men going on shift to take their instructions as to what face they are to go to from, say, the underground manager or the deputy than from the men they relieve ?—Most decidedly ; he is the proper person. 210. He is responsible, according to law?—Yes. The Act states quite plainly that anything wrong has to be reported to him. 211. With reference to Mr. Guinness's Coal-mming Bill, is it a fact that the shifts going on never take any instructions from the shifts that are relieved ? —I should not think they would. 212. They are not allowed to go on to the face before the deputy goes there? —I know that that is so in a great many cases. This applies to the first shift that goes on each day. 213. Mr. J. Allen.] Do you know anything about the coal-cutting machines that are working on the West Coast ?—I have seen them. 214. Are they putting out at the present time all that they can put out ?—That I could not answer. I suppose the owners are trying to make them put out all they can. 215. If the hours of labour are reduced by half an hour or an hour a day, will the machines be able to put out as much as they are putting out now ?—Yes ; of course, it all depends on the men's work. My experience of workers is that the shorter you make their hours the harder they work and the more effective their work is. 216. With reference to clause 212 of the principal Act, you said that an Inspector was wrong in saying that according to law miners should change their shift at the face. Will you please read subsection (3) of clause 212 ?—" Every person in sub-charge of and employed in mining operations in any part of the mine shall, on changing his shift, inform the person appointed to relieve him of the state of the workings in the part of the mine in which he has been employed." That refers to the man in sub-charge; even if it did refer to a miner it does not refer to changing at the face. Where is he to "inform the person appointed to relieve him of the state of the workings" on changing shifts ? 217. Where is he to do it except at the face ?—According to the custom in the Reefton district, where anything of the kind has taken place it has not been at the face at all. It is either done at a chamber or on the surface where the men congregate, not at the face at all. Any statement to the contrary made by an Inspector of Mines as far as the Inangahua quartz-mining district is concerned is incorrect. 218. Does not this subsection refer to two different people—the person in sub-charge and the person employed in mining operations —in your opinion ? —To my mind, it applies to the person in sub-charge—the shift-boss. 219. Then, what about the words " and employed in mining operations"?—"Every person in sub-charge of and employed in mining operations." 220. Are not those two different people ?—No, certainly not. 221. " On changing his shift " : where is he to change his shift ? —Either on the surface, or at the chamber, or at the brace. I speak of the Reefton district, but I believe it applies generally to the quartz-mines of New Zealand. I believe it applies to the Thames. I may say that it was our union that asked for that clause to be inserted in the main Act. We drafted it and sent it up. Mr. Cadman was Minister of Mines at that time, and when we drafted it it was distinctly for the purpose of applying to shift-bosses, and shift-bosses only. 222. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Who is responsible for the firing of shots in the Reefton mines ?— The men employed at the face. 223. They can fire a shot whenever they like ?—Certainly not. If a man is a miner there is no danger in his firing shots ; but if there is a mishole his duty is to go and report that to the shift-boss. 224. Does one boss look after more than one face ?—He has charge of all the faces in a mine. Even here you will see that the manager himself, independent of the shift-boss, is responsible; he personally has to make inspections.

I.—4a

HENRY BETTS.

225 Mr J. Allen.] How could a shift-boss in charge of dozens of faces, when there is a change of shift coming on, let them all know ? Supposing he was informed just shorty before he change of two or three different places being dangerous, how could he let them all know ?—A shiftboss has no right to be in charge of dozens of faces. 22T. Mr. W. Fraser.] You are working a certain number of hours underground under your ggested amendme nt proposes that you shall work a certain number of hOUr 22B~lfthere any difference between the hours you work under that agreement and the hours proposed by Mr. Guinness ?-Yes; the difference would be that our hours of labour would be reduced The point is this : You say that Mr. Guinness's Bill, if passed, would absolutely compel the working of certain hours , , „ T . 229. I merely say that it fixes certain hours beyond which a man cannot work ?—They are the maximum hours which a person can work. wtm--230 Supposing Mr. Guinness's proposed amendment were passed, would you be in a bettei position as far as hours below ground are concerned than you are m now ?—Certainly. 231. To what extent ?—Fully half an hour per day. .-,.•, , ' „ 232 Mr R McKenzie.] You said, in reply to Mr. Fraser, that your industrial agreement was for a period of two years, and. that the miners hoped to break it if the Bill were passed, as I under, stood you. Supposing that the law did not allow you to break your agreement would you break it then?-If the law does not permit us to we will not; but if the law does permit we will 233. You entered into that agreement and signed it m due course : do you not think that, as honest men, you ought to stick to it, no matter what the law may be ?—lf the law 234 Supposing there is no law'-Certainly we will endeavour to carry out the agreement. 235. The Chairman.] Would the effect of the passing of this proposed legislation be to break vnur nareement altogether?—Certainly not; in no respect. } 236 1 Mr J Allen.] Then, you do not object to our putting a clause into the Bill providing that it shall not break the agreement ?-I would rather that Mr. Guinness s amendment came into force straight awav, as far as the hours are concerned. 237 Do the ra ners object to our putting in a clause to provide that your agreement, honourablv made shall honourably stand ?-I do not see that as reasonable men they could very well obJeC 23B° M- T «.rDi~LTs n aybeiore that if the Bill were passed you would take advantage of it to break your agreement ?—The law itself would break our agreement ° 239 The Chairman.] That is what I asked you just now -Most decidedly the law would break our agreement, and we would certainly take advantage of the law. Our agreement wa made aftei the coming into operation of the Act of last year. If you are going to amend the Act y ° U MO "'Mr to a clause like that being put aware that in some cases m the Thames district six hours have been fixed bv the Arbitration Court for those working in very wet places ?—Yes, 1 am. 242 You do not think the men should have to work eight hours a day there, do you ?-No , nor do I think they should be asked to work eight hours a day m badly ventilated places.

Tuesday, 29th July, 1902. Henby Betts (examination continued). The Chairman- I understand that Mr. Betts wishes to correct a statement that he made before the Commirtee on the last occasion when we sat. Will you please state what the correction 1S ' M Mr B felts ■On pa*e 13 of my evidence I said, in answer to a question by Mr. Hemes that the face, with halt an^noui :ouio Saturday shifts, the Saturday day S S hetat h 4 f Xrno T onXift shift.it is not stated whether the hours of labour ii/those particular shifts shall be from face to ace or froml bank t.bank 1 Mr J Allen.] What mine does that agreement refer to ?—Io several mines , you win set, legislation we passed last session, which you seek to amend until your industrial agreement ran out the amendment could have no effect ?-That amen 3 d tsTsession anything provided for in an industrial agree ment 01 an awards the Arbitration Court is excepted ?-We were working under an award at the been better, Mr. Betts, if all these matters had been left Set^tt^

I.—4a.

[WILLIAM DAWE.

There are various unions in the country, and they are all working under different awards and agreements. We have no Miners' Federation. 5. Are the conditions not different in some coal-mines, as well as quartz-mines ? —Of course, there is a slight difference, I believe, in the conditions in different coal-mines, but I think the conditions in quartz-mines are pretty much the same. A miner has the same danger in a great many instances, and, of course, his occupation is always unhealthy, particularly where dynamite is used, and nitro-glycerine explosives are used in all quartz-mines and rock mines. 6. Still, seeing that the Arbitration Court has been set up for the purpose of dealing with these matters, do you think it is fair, after agreements have been made, to petition the House to make alterations ?—I said in my previous evidence that it was always the intention of the Inangahua miners to look to the Legislature for redress. 7. Would it not look as if the Arbitration Court had become obsolete if every one, after arrangements had been made by the Court, came to the Legislature to get amendments made ?—lt is not purely a local question ; it is a national question. It affects the whole of the miners—quartz and gold—throughout the colony. 8. lam aware of that; but the Arbitration Court is set up to deal with all mines ?—Yes, that is so. I admit that in some instances there might be reasons for the Court fixing different rates of pay in various parts of the colony ; but I think the hours of labour should be uniform, because the occupation is unhealthy and dangerous in all parts of the country. 9. I thought that the Conciliation Boards and the Arbitration Court bad made allowances for all that, and apparently they have? —No, not to the satisfaction of the great body of the workers. 10. Mr. Lang.] I would like to ask the witness one question. Are some mines not more unhealthy to work in than others?—Oh, most decidedly, of course—that is, if the ventilation is not what it should be. Some mines are not so well ventilated as others. 11. Then, would it not be more satisfactory to have, the hours arranged by the Arbitration Court, which could make the necessary difference for different mines, according to the state of the air, and so forth, instead of having a fixed law for the whole colony ? —I think the Legislature should deal with the matter, and not leave it to the Arbitration Court. I know that, as far as the North Island award affecting quartz-miners is concerned, the Court reduced the hours to six in that case for badly ventilated places and wet places; but I think that instead of leaving a matter of that kind to the Court it should be made a colonial question. The House should deal with it and fix the hours in the same way as the Court has done for that class of work, or for men engaged under those conditions— i.e., in badly ventilated places and in wet ground. 12. Do you think that matter could be dealt with by an Act of Parliament as well as by the Court sitting and considering individual cases ?—Much better, I think, because an Act of Parliament would apply to the whole colony, and the miners would be working under similar conditions all over the colony, which is as it should be. Of course, as far as deciding what is a wet place or a badly ventilated place is concerned, that, I suppose, will rest with the management of a mine, and perhaps some officials of the union, or possibly with the Inspector of Mines for the district. William Dawe examined. (No. 5.) 13. The Chairman.] What is your name ?—William Dawe. 14. Where do you live ? —At Brunnerton. 15. What are you ?—A miner. 16. Do you belong to any association of miners ? —The Brunner Union. 17. Are you an officer of that union?—No. 18. Mr. Guinness.] You are a member of the Grey Valley Coal-miners' Union ?—Yes. 19. Has the question of working eight hours from bank to bank been discussed by the members of your union on several or any occasions ? —I have not attended the meetings of the union just lately. 20. Do you know what the feeling of the miners is on the question?—Yes. 21. What is it ?—That they should be relieved outside. 22. You do not understand me. I want to know what the feeling of the miners is with regard to having legislation passed making the day's work count from the time you leave the surface till you come out at the surface again ? —Eight hours from bank to bank. 23. Are they in favour of that or against it ?—They are in favour of it. 24. How long have you been employed as a coal-miner ? —For twenty-five or twenty-six years. 25. Where ?—At Brunner principally. 26. What is the custom with regard to changing shifts in coal-mines: where do the miners change ? —No particular place in the Brunner Mine. 27. If the Bill that I have brought in this session, having for its object to make the hours of work eight hours from bank to bank, is passed in Parliament, will it have any effect in the way of increasing the cost of production, in your opinion ? —No, I do not think so. 28. Who do you consider is the person that a miner going off has to inform of any danger or risk at the face that he is leaving?—lt is the duty of the deputy to inform a miner coming on what his place is like. If there is anything wrong a miner going off should acquaint the deputy of it. It is the deputy's place to go and see that the place is right before the relieving party goes in. 29. If a miner going off from a place knows of some risk or likelihood of accident, is it his duty to inform the miner who is going on to work at that place, or is it his duty to inform the deputy ?—lt is not the miner's duty to inform his mate, because he may not see him. It is the deputy's duty to inform the man going on whether the place is dangerous or otherwise. It is the duty of the miner going off to inform the deputy if anything is wrong; of course, if he saw his relieving mate he might inform him.

WILLIAM DAWE.]

I.—4a.

30. Mr. J. Allen.] You state that the miners desire that the working-hours should be eight from bank to bank?—Yes. 31. Does that include the meal-time?—No. As we are working now at Brunnerton we are in the mine eight hours and a half. 32. How much of that is crib-time ?—Half an hour. 33. Do you include in what you call working-time the time taken up in going to and from the face ?—Yes. 34. What I want to get at is the actual time you are working at the face getting coal, excluding crib-time and the time you are travelling ?—We are seven hours and a half coal-getting, excluding crib-time. 35. Do you know what this Bill proposes ?—Yes ; eight hours from bank to bank. 36. If you take off the crib-time and the time travelling, how much will be the actual workingtime at the face?—Seven hours and a half, I suppose. 37. How do you make that out ? You say that it would be eight hours from bank to bank under the Bill. There has to come off that half an hour for crib and half an hour for travelling : is that so? —Yes. 38. Then, what would be your working-time at the face if you exclude the crib and travelling time ?—Seven hours. 39. That would be half an hour's less coal-getting every day ?—Yes, I suppose so. 40. Do you think that the miners can get, working half an hour a day less, as much coal as they are now getting ?—I think, myself, that the miners would get as much coal in six hours as they get in eight, because coal-miners do not go into a mine to waste their time. They work as hard as they can. 41. Do they work as hard as they can now ? —Yes. By the time six or seven hours are up they are fagged out. 42. They could get as much coal in seven hours as in eight ?—Yes, practically speaking. The men are just about tired out after six hours' work. 43. Does that apply to every miner in the mine ?—To the majority. 44. What about the others ? —All the men do not work the same. Some of the men work as hard as they can so as to get all the money they can. 45. Under the new Bill those men could get as much money as they get now ?—Yes, to a certain extent. 46. You are not quite sure about it ? Now, I want to know, if the men have to work shorter hours—l am referring to day-wages men—and have to take less pay for the shorter hours, will they prefer that to the present hours and the present pay ?—I think the pay is little enough. 47. They want shorter hours and the same pay : is that what they want ?—They want no less pay. 48. Is your mine covered by the two-years agreement that has been mentioned ?—Our agreement is a twelve-months agreement. 49. When was it made?—l could not tell you. 50. Have you been working in the mine lately ?—Yes. 51. When ?—I knocked off about three weeks ago. 52. You do not know when the agreement was made ? —At the beginning of this year. 53. Were the hours of labour and the wages specified in that agreement?—Yes. 54. Is it your desire that this Bill, if passed, should interfere with that agreement ? Do you think it fair that the law should come in and upset an agreement which you honourably made ? —But it was made under that eight-hour Bill. 55. Which?—The last one passed. . 56. Do you think the law should come in and alter an agreement that you have made for twelve months ? —The agreement was made for the twelve months, and we will have to abide by that. It is about the future that we are thinking. 57. You know something about the underground haulage in your mine, I suppose ?—Yes. 58. Is it now doing all it can?—Yes, all it can do. 59. Are you sure of that ? —We could send more coal out if we had more miners in. 60. The capacity of the haulage is greater than the quantity of coal that is sent out now ?— We could haul more underground. 61. And haul more up to the surface ?—Yes. 62. And the surface-hands could deal with more ? —I think so. 63. Do you mean to tell me that if the hours of labour underground are shortened by half an hour a day it will not increase the cost of production ?—I do not think it will, because the men could put out more and do it in less time than the underground haulage could take it. 64. If you have to work half an hour less time, are there sufficient skips to keep the miners going, doing more labour in the shorter time?—-We could take more coal out. 65. Do you think there are sufficient skips in the mine now to bring out the same amount of coal in half an hour's less time ?—I say there are. 66. You think the miners would get plenty of skips without putting any fresh ones in ?—Yes, I believe they would. 67. Mr. W. Fraser.] In answer to Mr. Guinness, you said that it was the duty of the miner to report the state of the face to the deputy, and not to the incoming shift ?—I said, if he saw his relieving mate he would tell him. 68. Where would he see his mate, as a rule —or does he ever see him?—l am speaking of the Brunner Mine only. He might see him at times, but at other times would not see him at all. 69. That might not apply to other mines ? —-No, it might not. 70. You do not know whether it would apply to gold-mining?—No.

I.—4a.

[WILLIAM DAWE.

71. You are speaking only as regards coal-mines? —Yes. 72. Mr. Herries.] How many shifts are there in the Brunner Mine ?—Only one at present. 73. Do you think you could work on the bank-to-bank system with three shifts'?—Yes ; it has worked three shifts. 74. Were you then working under bank-to-bank conditions, or face-to-face ?—When our time was up we would go out and others would come in. 75. I understand you are working eight hours at the face now, counting crib-time in?—Yes. 76. If you had three shifts in the twenty-four hours, how would you manage, supposing you had to count the time from bank to bank ?—The way that I reckon we could manage would be that we could stop the rope, and one shift would be going in while the other was coming out. But the rope would have to be stopped for twenty minutes —I think it was that before. 77. Mr. J. Allen.] At each change?—Yes; one party going in and the other coming out. 78. The mine being idle ?—Yes. 79. Mr. Herries.] If you were working three shifts, how much time would be lost in that way '.' —The rope used to stop twenty minutes. The men would start from outside at 4 o'clock and those going off would start from the inside at 4 o'clock, so that they would pass one another on the way. 80. That was under the old system?—Yes. 81. But how would it work under the new system ?—We have not been working three shifts ; but we would have to work the same way in the Brunner Mine. We would have to stop the ropes while the men were going in and out. 82. But there would be a longer delay, would there not ?—That would be the delay—twenty minutes each shift. 83. Mr. R. McKenzie.] If you had to change shifts at the face, would it not be a fact that you would lose more time than by the way you do now ?—Yes> certainly. 84. The rope would have to stop twenty minutes for one shift going on and twenty minutes for the other coming out ?—Yes. 85. I will put it in ' another way. It would take the relieving shift twenty minutes to go in ; that would mean twenty minutes' stoppage. Then, after they had relieved their mates, there would be another twenty minutes' stoppage necessary for that shift to get out again. So that if you changed at the face you would require to stop the ropes forty minutes instead of twenty ?—■ Yes, if you go on that system of changing at the face. 86. Have you worked in any other mine than the Brunner ?—ln the Wallsend Mine. 87. Did you ever work in the Buller area or at Newcastle? —No; but I worked in a coal-mine in Victoria. 88. In all coal-mines where there is the double-haulage system is it not customary to stop the haulage when the men are coming out and going in ?—Yes, because ■ 89. The law does not allow the men to travel while the rope is travelling?—That is so. 90. Supposing you are working at a face in a coal-mine, when you go off is it your duty to report anything wrong to the deputy ? —Yes. ' 91. Any serious danger ?—Yes. 92. Do the men report that in the report-book? —No. 93. Have they not a right to? —I do not know. 94. In your.experience it has not been customary?—No. 95. Is it the duty of the deputy to go and examine the working-faces before the men go in, or at the change of shift ?—He has to examine all the places. No man can go into his place without seeing the deputy, who reports to him whether the place is safe or not. 96. So that without the consent of the deputy a miner cannot go to a working-place at all ?— If he goes to his face without seeing the deputy it is the deputy's duty to report him in the reportbook. 97. He is liable to be dismissed for that?—Of course. 98. You were asked some questions as to whether there were plenty of skips in the Brunner for more men to work : can you tell me what the output is per week, or month, or year?—l could not tell you. 99. Not even approximately ?—No. 100. Do you think the output is as much as it was a few years ago?—No; they have not got the men, for one thing. 101. All the plant is still there?—Yes. 102. Do you get coal in the Brunner Mine by the ton—piecework ? —By the ton. 103. So that, as far as the miners are concerned, it really does not matter how long they are at the face so long as they get a certain quantity of coal—if you get the quantity in six hours it does not matter much ? —No. 104. But you have got to stop in the mine till they all stop ?—We cannot get out of the mine while the haulage is going. 105. You must stop there ?—Yes ; the deputy would stop us. 106. That applies in all mines as far as your experience goes ?—Yes. If we go out while the rope is running we are liable to be reported. 107. If this Bill became law it would make your working-time at the face seven hours —that is, allowing you half an hour for going in and out and half an hour for crib. It would make your time underground eight hours instead of eight and a half a day, so that you would not be kept in the mine for the extra half-hour. I refer to the men who are working by the ton ?—Yes. 108. What effect would this Bill have on the truckers ?—I do not think it would have any effect on them at all. It would be a reduction to them of half an hour, I suppose. They have as much right to the eight-hours day as the miners. They are paid by day-wages now.

GEORGE ROBINSON CHEESEMAN.]

I.—4a.

109. As an old miner, what is your experience of the effect of working long hours in a coalmine on a man's health?—lt affects some men differently. I have had bad headaches, and so on. 110. Do you think the health of an average coal-miner is quite equal to that of an ordinary person working on the surface ?—No, I would not think so. 111. Do you think the length of life of an average coal-miner is equal to that of a person working outside in the open air'? —l would not think so. 112. So that your opinion is that working long hours in a coal-mine has an injurious effect on a man's health? —Yes, I think so. 113. Hon. Mr. McGowan.] With regard to the average length of life, does a miner make the same money as an average man working outside, or more ?—I think he makes more. 114. Would the average miner be satisfied with the average pay received outside?—No. 115. He gets more money because it is an unhealthy occupation ?—Yes, a little more—very little more. Some weeks more and others less. 116. But taking the average ? —Yes, he gets more. 117. Did you ever work in a quartz-mine?—Not in New Zealand. 118. Anywhere ? —Yes ; in Australia, at a reef called Campbell's reef. 119. What depth were you down? —600 ft. from the surface. 120. How long did you work there?—Five or six years. 121. You have had five or six years' experience as a quartz-miner?—Yes. 122. What was the custom when you were working at Campbell's reef? —Eight hours a day. 123. Have you ever worked in a coal-mine in which there was a travelling-way that did not interfere at all with the trucking or the hauling-engine ? —No. 124. You know that there are coal-mines that have travelling-ways in which the men are not in any danger to life or limb ?—Not to my knowledge. 125. Mr. J. Allen.] At your mine does the deputy have to inspect the faces at every change of shift before the men go in—l do not mean the first one ?—Before every shift. 126. He goes in and inspects each face before the new shift comes in ? —Yes. 127. How long does that take him in your mine?—About an hour. 128. And no man can go in until the deputy has done that ? —That is so. 129. Therefore there is the loss of an hour ? —He goes in before the miners. 130. How many hours does the deputy work?—Eight hours. 131. Mr. Guinness.] When you were speaking of working for five or six years at Campbell's reef in Victoria, how many years ago did you refer to ?—About thirty-two years ago. 132. Mr. R. McKenzie.] How long have you been working in the Brunner Mine ?—About twenty-five years, off and on. 133. Mr. Bennet.] What would be the average earnings of the miners at the mine you are working in at the present time ?—I should think, from 12s. to 15s. a day at the present time ; but they are doing extra well now. 134. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Take the Brunner Mine for the last five years: How much a year would the average earnings of a miner be?—l speak for myself, from £2 10s. to £3 a week, on an average. 135. It would not be 12s. or 15s. a day on an average ?—Oh, no. 136. Mr. Guinness.] You say that from 12s. to 15s. a day is the rate the miners are making at the present time at the Brunner Mine : are they able to work full time ? —Yes ; they are working full time—six days a week, not five —forty-eight hours. 137. You are working full time now: has that been for any length of time?—No, only these last few months. 138. Mr. J. Allen.] You say that the men are working forty-eight hours? —That is, six days a week. 139. You work forty-eight hours in a week ?—Yes, 140. How much a day is that ?—Eight hours each day, including Saturday. 141. You work eight hours on Saturday ?—Yes, at the Brunner Mine. 142. Do you know what the law is—that you are working against the law ? —No, we are not working against the law. 143. By law there is a half-holiday ?—We do not get any there. 144. No holiday on Saturday at the Brunner Mine at all?—No. Geoegb Robinson Cheeseman examined. (No. 6.) 145. The Chairman.] What is your name? —George Robinson Cheeseman. 146. Where do you live ? —At Dunedin. 147. What is your occupation ?—I am general manager of the Lovell's Flat Coal Company. 148. Mr. J. Allen.] Have you read Mr. Guinness's Bill?—I have. 149. What would be the effect of the Bill if it were passed ?—The effect to us and, in fact, to the majority of the coal-owners in Otago would be to shorten the hours, decrease our output, and therefore increase our cost of production to the extent of about —well, it depends on the time the men take for meals, but, reckoning that at about half an hour, it would pan out at about oneseventh. In our own case (the Lovell's Flat Company) we can put out only a certain quantity per day, and if we take half an hour per day off it will decrease our output very considerably— by from 10 to 17 tons a day —and therefore will increase our on-cost by about the same percentage. 150. Will you explain to us why it will increase your on-cost ? —lt is a matter of haulage. Our mine having a shaft, we can only run up a certain number of boxes per hour. If you are working the haulage eight hours a day you run out 80 tons in a day, and if you take an hour off the eight you will do only 70 tons.

I.—4a.

[GEORGE ROBINSON CHEESEMAN

151. Are you putting out of your shaft as much as you can ?—Not at the present time. During May we were running it as hard as possible ; we could not get enough. 152. If the hours were shortened what would happen ?—Our output would be reduced by about 10 tons a day. 153. Do you think that if the miners work half an hour a day less they will produce to you the same amount as they do now ? —No, Ido not; but even supposing they did, we could not get the coal away from them. 154. So there is no doubt that in your case your haulage-appliances would not allow you to take the same quantity of coal away in the shorter time, if the men could produce it ?—That is so ; and I can say that the same thing applies to Kaitangata. I had a talk with Mr. Broome, the manager there, and he said the same thing applied there. Their hauling-appliances will not allow of their putting out more than a certain quantity per day. 155. Have you heard anything from your miners about the proposal contained in this Bill ? So far as you know, have they expressed any desire for it ?—I heard that the matter was likely to come up, but have heard of no desire for it on the part of the men. 156. Do you know anything of the Kaitangata Mine?—Not very much. 157. You know Mr. Broome, the manager ?—Yes. 158. Have you any evidence as to the effect of working underground upon the miners' lives ? —Yes. 159. As to the healthiness or unhealthiness of the occupation ? —I consider—and I think most of the mine-managers do —that it is a very healthy occupation; in fact, if I may be allowed, I would like to hand in a letter from Mr. Broome, and from one of our own mine-managers. I would also like to hand in a statement of vital statistics as regards mining in England, Wales, and Scotland. [Papers handed in.] 160. Do you know anything at all about the longevity of .miners ? —I think a miner's life is as good as any other man's in the colony. We have had men of all ages working for us. Ido not think there is any reason to say that the occupation is any more unhealthy than 161. You have had men of all ages working in your mine?—Yes. My own experience has been that their health is very good indeed. 162. And from your reading what do you know about it ? —The miner comes very low in the list. 163. His rate of mortality is not high ?—No ; not 1 per thousand. 164. What is the mortality in the case of a carpenter ?—lt is higher than that of a miner, and the same may be said in the case of a draper or a clerk. 165. You say that from your own reading?—Yes. 166. You were speaking about your shaft haulage, and said that you could not do more than you were doing : what about your underground haulage ? —I do not think that could be increased very much, but there would be no advantage in running a tremendous amount of stuff to the bottom of the shaft and then not being able to get it taken up. 167. How many men have you on day-wages?—Twelve, the majority of whom are down below. • 168. What about those on top? —There are five day-wages men. 169. What would be the effect of the Bill upon the day-wages men: would it shorten their hours of labour?—Yes; but it would all depend on whether they would take an hour or half an hour for their meal-time. The majority of our men take from forty to forty-five minutes. 170. Do they take a " smoko " time ? —About a quarter of an hour in the morning and a quarter of an hour in the afternoon. 171. How much time do the men down below take up with their meal and the " smoko " ?— About seventy minutes a day. 172. And how much time in going into and coming out from their work ?—About an hour, 1 think, altogether. 173. You are speaking of the men who work the furthest distance away from the shaft?—Yes. 174. During that two hours and ten minutes'the men are not getting coal, though they are underground ? —Those furthest away will not be getting coal during two hours and ten minutes, or thereabouts. 175. This Bill would make the working-time half an hour less ?—Well, about twenty minutes less ; it would depend on how they took their meal-time. 176. What is the crib-time? —Forty minutes. 177. If the Bill came into force, as you are now working it would mean forty minutes a day less coal-getting ?—Yes. 178. If the men's wages were maintained as they are now and their hours were shortened, what would your mine have to do ? Are you making big profits now?—No, we are not. 179. Have you ever made any big profits ?—No. 180. What would you have to do?—lt would be either a case of " shut up " or " raise prices." If we put it on to the public our output would probably go down, because the class of coal that we produce—brown coal—we could not sell at a higher price. 181. Why?—On account of Westport and Newcastle coal coming into competition with us. 182. If you put the price up higher, would the Newcastle coal come in at a greater rate than now ? —Yes. 183. You would have to face keener competition with the Newcastle ?—Yes. 184. Mr. Colvin.] How long have you been manager of a coal-mine?—For about twenty years. 185. Has it been your experience in that twenty years that coal-mining is a healthy industry? —Certainly it is; I think the coal-miner is about as healthy a man as you will find.

GEORGE ROBINSON CHEESEMAN.]

I.—4a.

186. Do you think that it is healthy for a man, working in a mine where gelatine and dynamite are used, to inhale the fumes of these explosives?—He does not work very much in gelatine and dynamite. The places are always cleared before he goes into them. The ventilation clears the fumes out. 187. Is that so in every case ?—ln all well-conducted mines it is. We have Inspectors to see that the ventilation is right, and they are very particular. 188. If miners from other districts said that the occupation was unhealthy, would you believe them?—No, I would not. 189. How many men do you employ at your mine? —Forty-eight at Lovell's Flat. 190. Are they working on day-labour or on piecework?—On piecework ; but we have a certain number of day-labour men on. 191. Previous to the 1891 Act coming into force what hours did the men work?—They used to work eight hours at the face ; we used to get a full eight hours' work. 192. If the men were on piecework at the face, would it make any difference to you whether they worked six or eight hours a day?—lt would make a difference to us to this extent: if only six hours were worked we would have to put so-many more men on to get the same quantity of coal, and, when we got the same quantity of coal, on account of the hours being shortened we could not get that coal up the shaft. 193. Is it not a fact that coal-miners generally, previous to the Act coming into force, never worked longer than seven hours at the face in most of the mines in the colony?—lf you take off their " smoko " they work about seven hours and a half a day, I suppose. They are in the habit of having a smoke at any time they like. They were at the face eight hours. 194. Mr. Guinness.] Do you work your mine by means of a shaft or a tunnel ?—A shaft. 195. What is the depth of that shaft ?—461 ft. 196. What is the length of your drives ? —They vary up' to half a mile. 197. Have you got any drive half a mile in length?—Yes. They are from a few chains to half a mile long, but, of course, they are extending every day. 198. What do the pieceworkers at your mine average per day ? —About 10s. 199. Do they work full time ?—For the last three years we have worked about five days a week. We have worked too much for them, in fact. 200. What do you pay the truckers?—Their pay varies from 6s. 6d. to Bs., according to age and ability. 201. What is your output for eight hours ?—About 80 tons during the last week or two. We have gone up to 100. 202. Is that your maximum?—Yes, 100 tons. The output has fallen off this last week or two. 203. You told Mr. Allen that if the Bill became law, after deducting crib-time, " smoko " time, and the time occupied in travelling, the actual time worked at the face would be only five hours and fifty minutes a day—that is what you made it, I think?—The Bill would reduce the time to six hours a day, actual working-time. 204. What time do the men take to go down the shaft ?—About twenty minutes. 205. And then from the shaft to the face ? —That takes somewhere about ten minutes. 206. That is, it takes them half an hour to get to the work ?—Yes. 207. And another half-hour to get back ? —Yes. 208. Then, you said—so I understood—that an hour and ten minutes were taken up by cribtime and "smoko"? —Yes; about forty minutes for crib, and we generally reckon from ten minutes to a quarter of an hour for " smoko " in the morning, and the same in the afternoon. 209. That is about thirty minutes for smoking and forty minutes for crib?—Yes. 210. That is about seventy minutes ? —Yes. 211. So that only five hours and fifty minutes is left out of the eight hours?—Yes, coalgetting. 212. Is the Act of last session being given effect to in your mine? —Not altogether. 213. Why?—On account of the men themselves. They had no wish to alter the rates of pay they were getting. 214. Did you intimate to the men that if they took advantage of the Act their rates would be decreased? —Yes. 215. You told them what the consequences would be if they claimed to work under that Act ?—We told them this : that if we had to reduce the hours of labour we would want to reduce the rate of pay accordingly. 216. And they said that sooner than do that they would keep on under the old system?—Yes. I may say that at the present time we have a reference in, and the men are claiming a rise equal to from 85 to 90 per cent, on their present wages. 217. Brown coal is the only coal produced at Lovell's Flat?—Yes. 218. Is it principally supplied to Dunedin ?—No ; principally to the country round. Dunedin takes about one-fourth. 219. The Chairman.] Do you not think it would be better to reduce the crib and " smoko " time, and let the men out of the mine earlier ? Is there any necessity for wasting so much time as thirty or forty minutes a day underground?—lt depends on the men. I do not think it would be possible for us to get them to alter the custom. 220. Do you think they would not take less than forty minutes for lunch and less than thirty minutes for " smoko " in order to get up into the fresh air earlier ? —No, I do not think they would take less. They very often smoke down in the mine. We do not object to that, if they work hard while they are working. 221. Have you yourself got a mine-manager's certificate ?—No. 6—l. 4a,

L—4a.

[JAMES LOUDON.

222. Have you had any practical experience down in a mine ?—Oh, yes ; I have always been up and down, and understand it fairly well. 223. From observation? —Yes, from observation. 224. Are you the mine-manager?—l am the general manager, and supervise the whole. James Loudon examined. (No. 7.) 225. The Chairman.] What is your name? —James Loudon. 226. Where do you live?—At Walton Park, six miles south of Dunedin. 227. What is your occupation ?—At present lam a mine owner and manager. 228. Have you got a mine-manager's certificate? —I have. 229. For coal or gold mining?—Coal-mining. 230. Have you yourself done any work underground?—Not in the way of working— lam not a miner—but I have filled all the other places about a mine. 1 have been connected with mines for thirty-eight years. I may say that lam one of the pioneers of coal-mining in Otago. 231. What grade is your certificate?—First-class. 232. By examination ?—No. I got it when the Act came into force. 233. What is vour mine ? —The Jubilee. 234. Mr. J. Allen.] Do you know this Bill?—Yes. 235. What effect would it have if passed ?—lt would shorten the hours by half an hour per day. 236. What effect would that have on your mine ? —ln our mine, of whatever work is done on shift-wages there would be from one-twelfth to one-fifteenth lost, and also on all of what is known as the on-cost labour. 237. What do you mean by " on-cost" ?—The stokers, engine-driver, headmen, and all other hands connected with them who are not engaged in actually hewing coal. Coal-getting as a rule is on piece rates, but about one-sixth of the coal-hewing is done on shift-wages on account of inferior places, and for other reasons. 238. What effect would the passing of this Bill have on the shift-wages ?—They would be less by one-fifteenth at least. 239. Now about the pieceworkers ?—lt would not affect the cost of the coal as far as the pieceworkers are concerned. 240. How would it affect the output then ?—Over the whole concern we would lose onefifteenth. It would restrict our output to that extent, and at the same time we would have to pay the same rate to all on-cost men, engine-drivers, and so on, and there would be one-fifteenth struck off the possible output. 241. Supposing that the pieceworkers could produce the same amount of coal working half an hour a day less than at present, could you get that coal away from them ?—Not in some of the mines. 242. Why not?—Because the plant is usually just suited for the labour to be done in what we term the busy season. You could do it perhaps at times when you were not so busy, say, for six months in the year, but for the other six months most of the mines—or some of them, at all events— both as regards plant and the on-cost staff, is taxed to the utmost. 243. If you had to do the same amount of work in shorter time, could it be done in the busy season ?—No. 244. What would you have to do, then ?—I do not know what we would do at all. It would not do to put on another shift. We would have to lose trade. The least unprofitable thing to do would be to lose it. It would affect the miners also. It would not be good for them—l mean this change that is proposed. 245. Why would not the proposed change be good for the miners ?—ln this way : As I have said, the mine in good times is taxed to its utmost ; in the other half of the year it is different altogether, for neither the plant nor the miners are getting sufficient work. Well, then, if you are obliged to increase the number of your men to get out the required amount of coal, supposing your plant would do it, and you put on so-many more miners—pieceworkers or others—that would increase the number of men to be retained in the summer also, and the consequence would be that the miners' annual earnings would be reduced. 246. Because of there being more idle men in the summer-time ?—There would be more men to do the work, and the consequence would be that the year's earnings of each and all of the miners would be reduced. 247. Supposing that the same rate of wages were retained for the shorter hours proposed in the Bill, are you making sufficient profit to take that out of your profit ?—We are ; others that I know of are not. The reason that we are is that ours is a comparatively new mine, and also that it is very fortunately situated— i.e., we have no water to trouble us. It is a free level, so that the water can run out by its own weight; consequently we are not put to the same expense as others. 248. Your levels are increasing every day ?—Yes. 249. That will mean further on-cost ?—Yes ; and further travelling-time. 250. And as the travelling-time increases the loss increases?—Yes. 251. So that presently you will be in the same position as the others?—Yes, with the exception of the water. 252. That is, if you get water ?—I do not know what is ahead of me. 253. You are not a practical coal-getter ?—No. 254. From your own experience, have you found a miner a weak and sickly man, and his occupation injurious to him generally ?—No, I do not think so. From my own observation the

JAMES LOUDON.]

I.—4a.

miner is a fairly healthy man. Ido not think his employment is against either his health or his vigour. 255. Have you found him, generally speaking, inferior to other men —not having half the go and strength, or anything of that?—That is not the case. I may mention that in our little mine there are only sixteen actual coal-getters, and two or three of these are over sixty —two of them sixty-five, I think, and another over sixty. These three are doing the same work and gaining the same wages as the young miners; so that does not indicate that they are going down very rapidly. My own observation is that they last better than those men who are working out in the open, because the miners do not get knocked out with rheumatism. They are not subjected to atmospheric changes. 256. Mr. R. McKenzie.] How many men are there employed in your mine? —Only twenty. 257. This proposed change would increase your cost by one-fifteenth?—That is all. 258. In reply to Mr. Allen you said that one-sixth of your expenses were the wages of the men employed on the surface by the day ?—No. I said that in the coal-hewing on an average about one-sixth of the work would be done on shift-wages; in addition to that there are the oncost men. 259. That is what I wanted to get at: if this Bill became law it would increase your cost by one-fifteenth of one-sixth?—No. 260. How do you make that out ?—There would be five-sixths of the coal-hewing done on piece rates and the other one-sixth on shift-wages. It would affect that one-sixth to the extent of one-fifteenth; and there are four what we call on-cost men also—an engine-man, a tip-man, a driver, and the manager. 261. Do you pay them by the week?—By the fortnight; so-much a day. 262. Their wages are weekly ?—No. 263. Do you employ your manager by the day ?—No ; by. the week. 264. Do you employ your engine-driver by the day, then ?—The engine-man happens to be my partner; but, of course, he has to get his wage. 265. Is he employed by the day ? —He is employed by the week. 266. What I want to get is whether you would have to pay these men the same if they worked seven hours a day or eight ?—The engine-driver would be paid by the week, and also the manager. 267. What about the brace-man ?—The brace-man and the driver are paid by the day. For instance, we are sometimes able to knock the men off on Saturday afternoon —in fact, they want it. They should get Saturday afternoon off as often as possible, and so we give it them as frequently as we can. The driver and the brace-man—-the same would hold good in any other colliery where the on-cost would be greater than mine—would be paid for the half-day only, but the engine-driver is always paid full time. 268. Do you think you could employ another man in your mine with advantage at getting coal with the same plant ? —I could. 269. So that really your output would not be reduced ? —No, not as far as getting ■ 270. By employing another man in addition to the sixteen your output would he kept up to what it is now, if you worked the lesser time, without any accession to the plant ?—Yes, as far as the one-fifteenth is concerned. The addition of one man would not alter the output at all, as far as I am concerned, if the shorter time were worked. 271. Now, as to the effect of coal-mining on health, you say you have three men over sixty ? —Yes, I think there are three ; but 1 am absolutely certain of two.' 272. What are they doing?—Hewing coal. 273. How long have they been working with you ? —One of them betwixt the time that I was in the Walton Park Company's employ and the time he has been working for me—l should say over thirty years. 274. Do you think that those three men would have been in as good or better health than they are in now if they had been working on the "surface ? —I could not say, but Ido not think they would have been any better. 275. Do you know whether their lives are insured ?—No, I do not think so. 276. If they went to an insurance company to get their lives insured, do you know whether they would have to pay an extra premium on account of their working in a coal-mine ? —I was with Mr. Cheeseman yesterday ; we called at two offices, and they said that no difference would be made by them between a coal-miner and any other man. 277. Your mine is a free-level ? —Yes. 278. Is there any water in the mines about Green Island ?—Yes. There is water at Freeman's. They work their men entirely on shift-wages there. 279. You said there was no rheumatism amongst the men working in your mine ?—lt is not common. 280. Does that apply generally to coal-miners about Green Island ?-—I do not think they are as much afflicted with rheumatism as other workmen are—l mean labourers on the surface, farm-ing-men, or others like that. 281. Have they got to use pumping machinery in any of those mines ?—At Freeman's they have, and at Walton Park the whole concern broke down because there was too much water. 282. Do you think that the air in those mines is as dry as it is outside on the surface in the sun? —As far as the air in a mine where there is water is concerned, I do not think the water affects it much at all. 283. How long have you had your certificate?—Since the Act was in force—over twenty years ago, when mine-managers were compelled to have certificates. 284. Did I understand you to say that you never did any work in a coal-mine ?—Oh, yes, I have done work, but not as a coal-hewer.

I.—4a.

[ALFRED HOWORTH.

285. Do you consider that you are an expert as to the working-conditions in a mine in face of the fact that you have never worked at the face in a coal-mine yourself ?—-Yes, I think I know as much as most miners as far as our particular district is concerned, but I would not say of anywhere else. 286. How did they change shifts at the Walton Park Mine ?—The time was reckoned from the face. 287. How long did it take you to get the men down the shaft?—At the Walton Park Mine, although there was a shaft and drive, the men, by going from the first opening that was made, did not need to be lowered down the shaft—they could walk. 288. How did they get the coal from the faces ? Did they stop the haulage from the faces while the shift was being changed?—There was no underground haulage. 289. How did they manage, then, with the haulage ?—The miners ran the trucks to the bottom of the shaft. There were no men appointed for that purpose. 290. Mr. Herries.] Are you working under an award of the Arbitration Court ?—Yes. 291. When did the award come into operation ?—Two years ago this July ; but I may mention that we have another reference placed in our hands now. 292. The award has run out? —Yes, it ran out in November last year. 293. You are shortly to come before the Arbitration Court?—Yes. 294. Do you not think that this question of changing at the face or at the bank, and the question of hours, would be better decided by the Arbitration Court than by the Legislature ?—Possibly they might have the best knowledge of it. 295. Mr. Guinness.] A better knowledge than members of Parliament?—Yes. They would be able to inquire more thoroughly into the matter. But I think that if the question is to be decided by the Legislature there is one thing that ought certainly to be fixed, and that is the time allowed for the meal at midday. It is supposed to be half an hour, but I know that in ours and nearly all the other mines it is extended to nearly three-quarters of an hour. And then there are two " smokos," so that actually there is only about seven hours and a half. The matter ought to be fixed, because, if it is not, the tendency will be for it to grow and grow, and quite likely before long the meal-time will be an hour instead of half an hour. 296. Mr. Herries.] Do you think that the Arbitration Court, sitting to hear each individual case, and knowing the circumstances of each mine, would be better able to judge with regard to making an award than the Legislature legislating for the whole colony? —-I think so, because it could inquire into each individual case. 297. The Chairman.] What is the difference between the temperature at the face in your mine and at the surface?—l could not tell you just now. 298. You cannot tell whether the change of temperature is likely to injure the miners ?—lt is not great enough. lam quite sure of that, but I could not give you the figures. 299. Do you work on Saturday afternoon at your mine ? —Very rarely. We try to give the men Saturday afternoon as much as we can. 300. Is mining a dangerous occupation, in your opinion ?—No, Ido not think it is. I may say that betwixt the time—thirty years—that I was at Walton Park and the time that I have been at the smaller mine we never had any more accidents during the whole of that period than two men who each had a leg broken. Those were the only ones worth taking notice of. There was a death at Walton Park after I left, but it was an engine-driver, not a miner. 301. Mr. Guinness.] You work your mine, I understand, by tunnel ? —Yes, entirely. 302. What distance have the men to walk along that tunnel to get to the face ?—About 4 chains only. About five minutes takes them to their work in our case. 303. How long do the men actually work at the face?—l do not think they work much more than seven hours and a half, actual working-time. 304. And they have smoking-time in your mine?—Yes. 305. Where do they go to smoke—outside ?—No; they usually gather at a certain suitable place. 306. Near the face ? —Yes ; not a great distance from the face. They smoke in the forenoon and the afternoon. 307. Do you know what time they take up in that little luxury?—Fully ten minutes each time. 308. Do they have crib in the mine ?—ln the mine. 309. And they take, you think, about forty minutes?—Something like forty minutes; it is supposed to be half an hour. 310. And you think that should be regulated ? Would you think that not exceeding thirty minutes would be sufficient ?—Half an hour would serve. 311. Do you think it sufficient?—lt would do. 312. What amount of time per day have you been working underground yourself?—l never did much work underground at all. 313. Have you ever worked eight hours a day underground continuously for any length of time ?—No. Alfeed Howoeth examined. (No. 8.) 314. The Chairman.] What is your name? —Alfred Howorth. 315. Where do you live?—At Dunedin. 316. What is your occupation?—l arn the managing partner of the Walton Park Company. 317. It is a coal company ?—Yes. 318. Have you a mine-manager's certificate ?—No ; lam only business manager. 319. Have you yourself worked in a coal-mine ?—I worked in a mine for about two years. 320. At what ?—Doing all classes of general work.

ALFRED HOWORTH.]

I.—4a.

321. Did you do any hewing at all ?—No. 322. No manual work ?—lt was all manual work, but not actual coal-hewing—timber-work, and so on. 323. Mr. J. Allen.] You have seen the Bill?—Yes. 324. What effect would it have, if passed, upon your mine ?—lt would increase the cost of getting the coal, for one point, and would decrease the output. 325. Are your men shift-wages men or pieceworkers ? —The coal-hewing is almost entirely done on piecework. All the other workers, of course, are day-wages men. 326. What is the proportion of day-wages men to pieceworkers ? —We have twenty men working, and of that number about twelve or thirteen are coal-hewers. The number varies a little. 327. They are on piecework?—Yes. 328. How would Mr. Guinness's Bill, if passed, affect the pieceworkers?—The difficulty, first of all, is to decide exactly what the loss of time would amount to; it may be half an hour a day, it may be three-quarters, it may be an hour. 329. Why do you say that ?—Because at present we work on the theory of half an hour for the midday meal, but nothing is stated in the Act about it. The men actually take more than the half-hour, and I believe the tendency will be to try to make it as near as possible to an hour. 330. If the time is not specified in the Bill?—Yes, if it is not specified. 331. Supposing the time for crib were half an hour, and the pieceworkers worked half an hour less underground, what effect would it have on the output ?—-It would reduce it by about onefifteenth. 332. Do you think that your men, taking them altogether, could produce in half an hour less time as much coal as they are producing now ?—No, certainly not. 333. If it were stated in evidence that the men could do it, would you believe that to be correct ?—No ; I do not believe they can. 334. What effect would the reduction of half an hour a day proposed in the Bill have on the day-wages men? —If the wages were kept at the same rate we would lose that half-hour. Owing to the situation and different things about the mine we are entirely dependent upon horse-haulage, and we could not drive the horses and take out the same amount of stuff in the shorter time. 335. When you are working your full capacity in the winter-time is your haulage taxed to its utmost ? —Yes. 336. If you had to take out in seven hours and a half what you are now taking out in eight, could you do it with your haulage-power ?—No. 337. Were you in the Court when the Allandale case was settled ?—I was in the Court when the judgment was read out. 338. Were you there when the question was raised of bank-to-bank or face-to-face ?—Yes. 339. Did you hear what the Judge said when he made a remark as to at any time having to reconsider the question of wages and shorter hours ? Mr. Guinness objected to this question being put to the witness, and the Chairman ruled it out of order. 340 ; Have you anything further to say as to the effect this Bill would have upon your mine if it became law ?—We consider that it would add to our cost. First of all it would strike the mine-owner. Shortly after it would strike the public. We look at it in this way : The miners would wish the hewing-rate raised on the plea that they should get whatever they are getting now ; they would ask for as much pay for working the shorter time as they get at present. After a certain amount of looking into the subject, we estimate that it would come to something like from £10 to £12 per man for all our men. I may state that the deputation of which lam one represent mine-owners who employ between six and seven hundred men —rather more than onefourth the total number of coal-miners in the colony—and if you put £10 or £12 per man on to them you will get something like £6,000 or £7,000 a year from our Otago District alone, which, taken on the basis of the number of men, amounts to, say, from £25,000 to £30,000 a year to the public. It seems to me that it is protecting the miner at the expense of the whole population. In Dunedin we have a local steam-coal, which is put on the market at a cheap rate. Our steam-coal price, railage paid, is Bs. a ton in Dunedin. This coal is of great use to the manufacturers of Dunedin, which town has very large manufactures, dependent considerably on this local supply of coal. I may state that one large factory uses generally 12 tons a day ; and we consider the passing of the Bill would injure all these industries, as it ultimately would come down on the consumers. 341. Does the Newcastle coal come into competition with your coal now?—To a certain extent. 342. Would it more so if your price were raised ?—Yes. 343. Would it seriously do so ?—I could not state as to what extent it would come into competition with ours, but we know we are just verging on the line now, and the competition is getting keener. 344. Mr. R. McKenzie.] In answer to Mr. Allen you said that the passing of Mr. Guinness's Bill would lead to an increase in the hewing-rate: how much per ton do you pay for hewing now ?—We have a different way of working it, I may explain, from the West Coast method. We have five different rates. 345. kre, you working under an award of the Arbitration Court ?—Yes. 346. What is the average rate ?—I will give you the rates, and you can strike the average. We are working on rates of, per box, Is., 9d., 7d., 6d., and 4d. 347. How much does a box hold ?—Nominally 5 cwt.; actually from 5J to 6 ewt. 348. Your rate would be about half a crown a ton on an average, would it not ?—The largest proportion of the stuff is at 7d. a box—the steam-coal.

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[ALFRED HOWORTH.

349. Then, it is slightly under half a crown a ton. How much do you sell this coal at in Dunedin?—ln Dunedin and district—just round about the town—from 11,000 to 11,500 tons per year. 350. I asked how much per ton do you get for it ?—lt is a complicated matter. We get 12s. a ton for the household coal; the other prices are cut very fine. We get Bs. a ton for the greater part of the coal. 351. You told me that the greater part of it was got at 7d. a box, which is 2s. 4d. a ton ?—Yes. 352. For that you get Bs. a ton ?—Yes. 353. How many tons a day does each of your men produce, do you consider—the men working at the face getting coal?—We get out, say, 40 tons a day. 354. For how many men ?—About twelve hewers. 355. That is about 3£ tons a day each ?—Something like that. 356. Does your mine come out on a free level or by a shaft?—From an inlet; the horses go straight in. 357. You have no winding-engine ?—No; we cannot use one. 358. How many boxes do the horses take out at a time?—We really work from two inlets. In one case the horse drags two boxes, and the other about ten ; it depends on the grade. 359. How much do you think it would add to your cost if the half-hour were taken off, as proposed in the Bill ? —On the basis of what I stated, that the hewing-rate would be raised also 360. I am not referring to the hewing-rate ; that is another question —one for the Arbitration Court ?—lt was in that light that I studied the subject. 361. What I want you to tell the Committee is whether, if you put another man to work at the face, you could not keep your output up to what it is at present without increasing the cost at all, though half an hour less per day were worked by the men ?—The difficulty is to get the stuff handled in the time with the horses. 362. How many horses do you keep working?—Four. 363. Do you not think that, if you put on another man who would produce 3£ tons of coal a day, the four horses could take out the 3-J- tons extra ? —They are very often driven to their utmost limit. 364. I am asking whether you think the horses could take out that 3|- tons extra so as to keep your output up to what it is at present ?—They might do it at an odd time, but I would not say they could continue it. 365. How long does it take one of your horses to make a trip to the face and back ? —We do not work them in that way ;we work them in stages. Each horse works on its own stage. 366. What is the distance from the face to the surface ?—-About 30 chains. 367. How many stages have you in the 30 chains ?—There is one main stopping-stage in the centre, where they meet; then there is an extra horse kept at each end, because there is uphill haulage at each end. 368. Do you think that a horse and driver could take out this 3£ tons in one extra trip a day ? —Not in a trip. 369. Supposing you kept this horse and driver an hour or half an hour longer to go there and back, do you think they could take out this 3| tons in that time ?—ln that case certainly, because it would bring it back to the basis you are working on. 370. Could they take the 3£ tons out in an hour?—Oh, yes. There are two drivers and two horses. 371. I mean one driver and one horse : could they do it in an hour?—lt is rather above the average per hour that we haul. 372. Three and a half tons ?—Yes. You are putting one man and one horse to do the work. You must remember that they have to work the 3-J tons through all the stages. 373. My contention is that by putting one more man on in your mine who would get 3J tons a day, keeping one horse and driver or two horses and two drivers for an hour extra would be all the additional cost that 3£ tons could possibly cost you, if the Bill became law ?—But you have got to keep other men. The stuff has got to be tipped into the railway-trucks. 374. Then, suppose you keep another man for an hour?—lt is all adding to the cost. 375. What I want to get at is what your additional cost would be in order to keep up your present output if the men's time were reduced by half an hour?—We would lose the time of all the men on day-wages, to begin with, to the extent of half an hour a day. The mine would be shut down that half-hour. We would lose that whole half-hour. 376. How do you yourself get paid—by the day?—l am a partner in the business. 377. But you are also manager?—Yes. 378. So that your time would not be lost ?—My business is in Dunedin itself. 379. What men would lose a part of their wages?—l stated that there were twenty men in our employ, and of these twelve or thirteen were coal-hewers. The rest are day-wages men. 380. That leaves six or seven ? —Yes. 381. What are those seven doing?—There is the manager, a tip-man, two horse-men, a roadman, a man for local sales and odd work, and another man on wages as well. 382. How do you pay the manager—by the day or by the week?—By the week. 383. So that you have to pay him whether he is at work or not ?—Yes. 384. Then, he can be taken out of the calculation. Now, there is the salesman : how do you pay him ?—By the week. 385. So that he also need not be considered. Then there are the two horse-men : how do you pay them ?—By the day. 386. If the men are idle they do not get paid ?—No.

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387. Who looks after the horses when the men are idle?—The salesman looks after them, in the way of getting them a certain amount of food; but one of the horse-men looks after the horses of a morning. 388. Does he get paid whether the mine is at work or not?—One of the horse-men is allowed a little extra for looking after the horses. 389. It is necessary for him to be there in any case?—Yes. 390. That is three out of the seven. Your road-man is paid by the day ?—Yes. 391. Does he get paid if the mine is idle ?—No. 392. The tip-man, I suppose, is not paid unless you are working?—No. 393. Three out of the seven you have to pay in any case ?—Two. 394. By putting on an extra man at the face to get coal, and assuming that he gets 3-J- tons a day, though the time was reduced by half an hour, your output would be equal to what it is at present. Could you take that coal out by paying the wages of a man to drive the horses for an hour a day extra ? —The man and two horses would not handle it. 395. What would it require to handle the coal?—lt has got to be tipped. 396. Then, put on the tip-man's wages for an hour, if you like?—Yes. 397. How much a day extra cost would it all amount to ?—I cannot see that there is anyother way of looking at it than mine ; there would simply be the loss of half an hour a day's wage if half an hour a duy less time is worked by the wages-men. It is the loss of that time. 398. Not if your output is kept up to what it is at present. You have to pay the men for the same output at present, have you not ?—So much is contract work, and all the rest is done by day-wages men; we would simply lose the work of all the day-wages men for that half-hour. 399. You pay your wages-men on your present output, do you not?—No, not entirely ; some by time, some by the week. 400. You would have to pay your manager, the salesman, and one of the horse-men—they are permanent hands ? —One of the horse-men is paid by time, but he is allowed something extra for looking after the horses. 401. What is your present output?—From about 11,000 to 11,500 tons a year. Between 900 and 1,000 tons a month. 402. That is 200 tons a week. But all your expenses have got to be made up by your present output. You have got to get all your expenses, no matter of what kind, out of your present output?—Yes. 403. The proposed alteration would reduce your output to the extent of one hewer's coalgetting, you say —that is, half an hour a day off thirteen men ?—-That is, assuming it is half an hour. 404. Assuming for argument's sake that it is ?—Yes; it would reduce the output by onefifteenth. 405. Say, by about one hewer's work?—Yes. 406. According to your own showing, that would be about 3£ tons a day?—Yes, something like that. 407. By putting on an extra man you could get that 3|- tons a day?—Yes, provided we had places. 408. Could you make places ?—Not always. 409. Why not ?—At our mine we are working under a good deal of difficulty in the way of room. It is an old mine. 410. You have had no experience of other mines? —Not more than local knowledge. I know a little of the conditions of other mines in the district. 411. What effect has coal-mining on the men's health as a rule, in your opinion?—With the experience that I have had in our district, I can say that it seems to be very healthy. I will give an instance. Our mine-manager is a man of about sixty-two years of age. He began in the pits at Lancashire at eight years of age; he has followed mining ever since, and is a remarkably healthy man to-day. 412. How long has he been working with you ?—Close on five years. 413. Can he go in and out of the mine whenever he likes ?—Yes. 414. His position in that respect is not similar to that of the coal-miners ? —He is not actually getting coal; he does a certain amount of work. 415. In other words, is he actually in the mine as long as the miners?—He is in charge of everything, and is moving backwards and forwards. 416 He does the office-work on the surface ?—There is not much office-work to do.

Thuesday, 31st July, 1902. Alpeed Howoeth's examination continued. 1. Mr. J. Allen.] I want to ask you a question in connection with a point Mr. McKenzie asked you about when you were here the other morning. If your coal-haulers down below and the horses were kept to bring out the coal after the miners had left the mine, what would be the effect on the haulage the next morning?—lt would work out in this way : Suppose that our boxes were divided into four classes, A, B, C, and D. We will say that one is at the face, one is full (travelling), one is being emptied, and the fourth is travelling back. In the morning you would have all your boxes empty, and the haulage would stand still till the boxes were filled up again and the work came back to its ordinary position. So that in the end what you hauled out the previous night you would have to wait for in the morning.

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[JOSEPH HOLLOWS.

2. The horses would be standing idle ?—Yes. 3. The Bill alters the definition of a miner ?—Yes. 4. Under this altered definition would your men driving horses be included as miners?—l understand that any man going below the ground would be taken as a miner. 5. Then, what would the Bill make such a man's hours of labour?—ln our district, I think, it would reduce the hours of labour to about seven. 6. Would the Bill make the hours eight from bank to bank ?—Yes, including meal-time, and travelling, and "smoko." 7. Then, could the driver remain another hour or half-hour to take the stuff out if the Bill were passed ?—lt seems to me that it would be illegal, unless overtime were provided for. Another point 1 might draw attention to is this : It seems to me that to put the clause proposed into the Mining Act would be making a condition for the whole colony where the circumstances of the mines are very different. Another point I might refer to is this: All the Otago coals are coals that will not store. All the mines are working on a daily-supply business. You may be running your mine to its utmost limit for a week, and then working only half-time during the next week, owing to the intermittent demand for the coal. No coal is hauled until it is practically known where it is going to—where the market is. The only storage provided by any of the mines that I know of, even Kaitangata, is the railway-trucks. If your orders are a little slack you store a few trucks of coal, and that is all you can do. We cannot do like they do at Westport— i.e., store hundreds and thousands of tons here and there to meet the demand. The result w ; orks out in this way : You have a rush on your mine for a few days, then the orders drop off and the men have a slack time. So that even if the men were working eight hours at the face a day they would not be working forty-eight hours a week, or anything like it. They might have two busy days and the next day an off-day. That fact seems to me to be very much against the idea of shortening the hours too much. It is something like the case of a farmer. He has to work hard at, say, harvest-time to make up for the slack time during the winter. Another point is this: It may appear as if the evidence that I have given is of small moment because my own colliery is small. But the same principles apply to our large mines, like Kaitangata, where there are hundreds of men employed. The owners would simply lose in the output, and they would lose the time of all the men. 8. Mr. Lang.] I understood you to say that the conditions in the mines are different in different parts of the colony, and to say something to the effect that it was not wise to have a hard-and-fast rule for some of the mines. What I want to ask you is this : Would it not be more satisfactory to have matters, such as the hours of labour, dealt with by the Arbitration Court instead of by the Legislature ?—Decidedly. I think the members of the Arbitration Court become in a short time practically experts in judging these matters. They can take into consideration the various conditions in the different cases. For instance, in one mine the men would lose half an hour or three-quarters of an hour in travelling, but at another mine they would be at the face in two or three minutes. I think it would be better if the Arbitration Court dealt with these matters rather than make a general law for the whole of the colony. Allan Mclntosh examined. (No. 9.) [Mr. Mcintosh's evidence appears on page 54.] Joseph Hollows examined. (No. 10.) 9. The Chairman.] What is your name ?—Joseph Hollows. 10. Where do you live ?—At Kaitangata. 11. What is your occupation ?—I am secretary to the Coal-miners' Union of Otago. 12. You have read the Bill now before us ?—Yes. 13. What would be the effect of the Bill, if passed, on the industry, speaking generally?— That is rather a broad question. 14. I will put it in another way. What are the hours of labour at the present time at Kaitangata Mine ?—Seven hours at the face—that is, at the Kaitangata and Castle Hill Mines. 15. Would this Bill reduce your hours of labour at the face? —Yes. 16. By how much would it reduce them? —By half an hour a day. The travelling-time allowed now is half an hour each way. 17. Do you actually occupy half an hour in travelling each way?—That is done to cover places that are a considerable distance in. 18. What becomes of the men who have not to travel as far as the others : do they have to wait and not be allowed to commence work ? —I would not be positive of the actual time taken to travel to the nearest place. As far as I could gather, the time taken ranges from twenty minutes to half an hour. 19. Will you go on to explain, then, how the Bill would reduce the hours of labour at the face by half an hour ? —The time-allowance that I am speaking of is the one given now at Kaitangata. Take the early shift: The men leave the surface at 7 o'clock. They have half an hour for crib or meal time—at 11, I think—and leave their work at 3. 20. When do they get to the surface ?—At half-past 3. 21. Between 7 and half-past 3 the men are working, excepting travelling and crib time?—Yes. 22. That is eight hours and a half ?—Yes. 23. Then, allowing half an hour for crib-time and half an hour for travelling each way, the time worked at the face is seven hours?—Yes, at the Kaitangata and Castle Hill Mines. 24. Do those who are working at the nearest faces do more actual work in the eight hours and a half underground than those at the distant places ?—I would not be positive as to

JOSEPH HOLLOWS.]

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whether they wait their time before starting or not. I got it from the manager himself that the actual working-time at the face was seven hours. I might explain that there is another mine, as to which we have a separate understanding. I refer to the old mine where the explosion occurred some years ago. The company have got into this mine again, and we have made a separate agreement—or, rather, understanding—with reference to that part, that a quarter of an hour should be allowed for travelling each way. 25. What are the hours of labour there ?—They are reduced by half an hour. 26. So that instead of being eight hours and a half underground?—They work seven hours and a half. They work half an hour more than the others. 27. Are there any more mines, to your knowledge, that work the seven hours and a half at the face ?—I could not speak positively on that point. 28. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Do you work in the Kaitangata Mine?—No; I am the general secretary to the Miners' Union. 29. Are you the secretary for all the coal-miners' associations in Otago ?—For all the branches comprising the Otago Coal-miners' Union. 30. Do you know the Walton Park Mine ? —Yes. 31. In a general way, what sort of a colliery do you consider the Walton Park Mine as regards the safety of the men?—Black damp is general throughout the district. Not only is it met with at the Walton Park Mine, but in other mines in the district. 32. The Green Island district ? —Yes. White damp also exists there. 33. If it had been given in evidence that the men are in the habit of smoking in the Walton Park and Jubilee Mines, would you consider that a safe practice ?—Smoking in mines is not prohibited, except where firedamp exists or where safety-lamps are used. 34. From your knowledge of the Green Island coal district, where black damp is prevalent, would you say that it was a safe practice ?—Oh, yes. 35. Do you consider it conducive to the men's health that there should be smoking in a mine ? —I think so, where there is black damp. 36. What about white damp ? —lt is just the same in that respect. 37. Is Walton Park a wet mine? —No; not as far as my knowledge goes. I worked there myself some time ago, and it was not wet then. 38. Do the men suffer from rheumatics there ?—No ; they only get wet from perspiration. 39. There is no pumping-engine ?—No. 40. Do you consider eight hours and a half too long or too short for the men to work in the Walton Park Mine ? —I consider it is too long a time in any mine. 41. I refer to this particular case. You say that it is a healthy mine—the air is good and the mine dry ?—I do not know whether I should specialise any mine. I myself consider that six hours is ample for any miner to work at the face. 42. What has been your experience as to the general effect on a coal-miner's health of his working long hours underground ?—lt varies; some are able to stand it better than others. ■ 43. But in a general way?—The effect is bad. 44. In what respect ?—The men are subject to impure air, black damp, white damp, and other noxious effluvia; and these, with the laborious underground work and the heavy respiration, are conducive to bad health. 45. Do coal-miners generally, to your knowledge, suffer from lung-complaints more than the ordinary run of people? —I know a great number that do suffer from lung-complaints. 46. Do you know of any medical officer living in Wellington who has been connected with any coal-mine in the colony whom we could examine on this question ? —No, I do not x know of any. 47. Suppose that at the Walton Park or the Jubilee Mine a reduction of half an hour was made in the day's work, could they maintain the same output by increasing the number of men with the present haulage systems there ? —Most emphatically, yes. 48. Could they do the same at Kaitangata ?—Yes. 49. Do you know the Allandale Mine ?—Yes. 50. Could the same thing be done there ? —Yes, I think so. 51. Do you know the Denniston Mine, Coalbrookdale ?—Yes. 52. Do you think they could maintain their output there by increasing the number of men employed with the present haulage system?—lt is some two years and a half since I left Denniston, but I should say they could have done so when I was there. 53. But suppose their output now is no greater than it was then, or even less ? —lf they have the same facilities for hauling coal as they had when I was there I should say Yes. 54. How many shifts do they work ? —One. 55. Were you ever there when they worked the two ?—Yes, but only for a short period. 56. Have you ever worked at Granity ?—No. 57. Where did they change shifts at Denniston when the two were working?—The men usually met at the mouth of the mine. 58. Were you prevented from going into the mine unless the deputies ordered you to go?— Yes. 59. Suppose that you had to wait an hour or two while the mine was being examined by the deputies or by some one else responsible, who would suffer the loss—the management or the men ? —I think they both would ; but the men would certainly get nothing. 60. The men on piecework ?—Yes. 61. When you were at Denniston, for how long did they stop the haulage for the shifts to go on and come off? —The men would be out on the travelling-roads somewhere. 62. The haulage was never stopped for the changing of shifts?—Some years ago, when the two shifts were working, they had a stoppage of half an hour. That would be eleven or twelve years ago. 6—l. 4a.

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63. As a matter of fact, the shift coming off never gave any instructions to the men going on as to what the face was like ?—That rested with the deputy or the shift-boss —the person in subcharge. 64. As far as the miners were concerned, was it any part of their duty to report to the men going on what the face was like when they left it ?—No. 65. Did such a custom ever exist there, to your knowledge ? —You might hear such a thing as " Keep your cutting well ahead, boys, and it will work." 66. To help them in getting coal ? —Just so. 67. Have you ever worked at Brunnerton?—Yes. 68. Do they stop the haulage there for change of shifts ?—They did not when I was there. That was sixteen years ago; and, of course, more recently than that —eleven years ago. 69. How many years were you at Denniston and Brunnerton ?—Off and on, it is twenty years since I went to Denniston. 70. You left two or three years ago?—About two years and a half ago. 71. What would you consider would be the average earnings of the coal-hewers at Denniston, Granity, Mokihinui, and Brunnerton, after allowing for lost time and stoppages, during the last five years ?—I could not answer that. I have not gone into the question. 72. As secretary of the Miners' Union in Otago and all the branches, what would you consider the average earnings of a collier for a period of twelve months ? —I should say the amount would be under £100 a year, but I could not speak positively. 73. Give us the approximate amount? —I have been in the position for only a little more than two months, consequently 74. How much did you earn when you were working ? —I should say, roughly, about £100 a year. 75. About £2 a week ?—Yes, that would be about it. 76. The Chairman.] Were you up to the average of the ordinary coal-miner ?—I was generally accepted, I think, as a good worker. Of course, lam taking slack times into consideration. 77. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Did you ever know of a case in the Otago mines of a man being overpowered by bad air or damp ?—Numbers. 78. Did you ever work in the Allandale Mine ? —Yes. 79. Did you ever know of a man being overpowered there by bad air or damp ?—No. 80. To your own knowledge, did you ever know of such an occurrence in the Walton Park Mine ?—Not to any severe extent. 81. Did you ever work in the Jubilee or the Kaitangata Mines ? —No. 82. Have you ever known men to be overpowered with bad air at Denniston ? —No, I have not. 83. Nor at Brunnerton ?—No, excepting their having to knock off work early on account of there being insufficient air. 84. You have known of such cases there ?—Yes, and at Denniston also. 85. Have you ever known of cases at Walton Park, Brunnerton, or Denniston of the men being prevented from going to work owing to the mine being in a bad state ?—Yes; at certain places at Walton Park Mine —not throughout the mine. 86. Have you ever known of an Allandale miner being stopped from going to work at certain faces owing to bad air ?—No, not in my time ; but it is eleven years since I was at Allandale. 87. Are you aware, as the secretary to the Miners' Union in Otago, whether it is the general wish of the colliers in Otago that this Bill should be passed ? —Yes ; that is what I am given to understand. 88. Have you had any communication on the matter with the different branches that you are associated with ? —Yes. 89. What is the general wish ? —The wish is to fall in with the Bill. 90. You want eight hours from bank to bank ?—Yes. 91. Are the men at Kaitangata working under an award of the Arbitration Court, or under an agreement?—Under an agreement. 92. A registered agreement ?—Yes. 93. When does it expire ?—I think it expires in December, but lam not sure. I think it was for one year. 94. In the event of the Bill becoming law, would your unions be prepared to carry out their present agreements, without making any attempt to break them before they expired ?—Certainly. 95. You do not want to break your agreements in any way ? —No. 96. Do you know many colliers who have their lives insured?—l do not know of any. 97. Do you know whether life-insurance companies ask for higher premiums from coal-miners than other ordinary people ?—I do not know what the life-insurance premiums are. 98. Mr. Lang.] I understood you to say that coal-miners work under different conditions at different times in different parts of the colony—the air is different, some are wet, and so forth ?— That is right. 99. Do you not think that it is better, under those circumstances, that the time to be worked should be decided by the Arbitration Court than fixed by the Legislature ?—I myself think that the hours of work should be made applicable to all mines, for the following reasons . A mine having disadvantages such as damp, and so on, would, if it were brought under the Act, be more heavily handicapped in competing with one where the conditions were favourable. I think that if a mine having disadvantages such as I have referred to were brought under the Act— i.e., eight hours from bank to bank —and another mine having more favourable conditions were exempt, it would be unfair.

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100. Mr. Gilfedder.] How do you mean —"exempt "?—lf the Act were not made applicable to all mines, a well-favoured mine such as I have mentioned would have a decided advantage over a mine not so well favoured. 101. Mr. R. McKenzie.] You mean to say that it would not be fair competition?—That is what I mean. 102. Mr. Lang.] What I wanted to get at was this : Would it not be worse for a man to work for, say, five hours in a mine which was damp, or where the air was bad, than to work eight hours in a mine where the air was pure and everything in a satisfactory condition ?—Yes, from a health point of view. 103. Would it not be better, then, to have the question decided by the Court instead of having a hard-and-fast rule by a law passed by Parliament ?—There is a great difficulty there. When you bring a case before the Court it is a very difficult matter to get men to come forward and give evidence on that point— i.e., damp or any bad conditions existing in any mine. The men are very much afraid of doing so. Therefore I think it would be better to have the matter settled and made applicable to all mines. 104. You prefer dealing with the matter by legislation rather than leaving it in the hands of the Arbitration Court ?—Yes. 105. Mr. Bennet.] Do the miners work on piecework or by day-labour in the Kaitangata Mine ?—The coal-hewing is done by piecework. I might explain that there are certain places called " deficient places," and provision is mad6 for working these on shift-wages; but where the tonnage rates are fixed they work on piece. 106. If this Bill were brought in and the hours shortened, would their wages be affected ?— Only so far as an award of the Court might go, or an agreement. 107. I will put it in this way : Could the men take as much coal out though they worked half an hour less as they are doing at the present time ?—I contend that a miner does, generally speaking, tire himself long before seven hours. That has been my practical experience. 108. Do you think, then, that he could do the same work in less time ? —I am positive he could. 109. Mr. J. Allen.] You say that a man tires himself long before seven hours?—That is my experience. 110. Can you give us any idea as to when he tires himself —after working how many hours ? —I am speaking of the men hewing coal. 111. Yes. You say that a man tires himself before he has worked the usual time now? —It would depend on the quality of the air he was inhaling as to when he tired himself. 112. Assume that he is working in pretty good air. You work at the face now seven hours. In your mine—given good air, as I said before—at what hour of the seven does a man get tired ? —Speaking for myself, I get tired, and did before, in six hours. 113. What did you do between the sixth and seventh hour?—Just pottered away—frittered away the time. 114. Could you not have gone out if you had wanted to?—Yes; years ago we could, and did. We did that at Denniston. 115. What do the men do now ?—Stop in the mine. 116. In your experience, did you work six hours and idle the other hour?—lf the air was good we could and did tire ourselves in the six hours. 117. The other hour you did not work ?—We frittered it away. 118. What did you do if the air was bad?—We worked much less. 119. You tired in a still shorter time ?—Yes. 120. Is it your experience with the generality of miners that that is so ?—Yes, speaking generally. 121. Do you mean to tell the Committee that an average miner could put out in six hours and a half as much as he is now putting out in seven ?—Speaking from my own experience, yes. 122. You apply that to miners generally?—Yes. 123. Now, what about the supply of skips to the miners : could that be done in six hours and a half ? —I should say that it would depend on the system of haulage. 124. Could it be done with the existing systems of haulage—the same amount of skips that are now supplied in seven hours to be done in six hours and a half, speaking generally ?—There might be some difficulties in some mines, but in others that I know of there would be no difficulty. 125. Now, you referred to one or two mines in particular, amongst them the Allandale. You said, with regard to the underground haulage, that you thought they could put out—l am speaking of their busy time—with the existing system of underground haulage more than they are now doing ?—That is what I think. 126. How long ago are you speaking of ? —I was down there about five weeks ago. 127. It is your opinion that with the existing system of haulage they could put out in half an hour less as much as they are now putting out ?—Yes. 128. You speak from practical experience ?—Yes. 129. If the managing director says that it is impossible, is he wrong?—That is my opinion. I do not like to say any one is wrong. 130. Now, with regard to the question of fair competition, I understand that your desire, as the representative of the miners, is that all mines shall be put on the same basis by law as to the hours of labour ?—That is right. 131. That is to say, that the hours of labour in good mines shall be limited by the hours worked in bad ones ?—That is what I think is a fair thing to do. 132. You think that because a mine is a good one, with good air, the men working in that mine should be limited with regard to hours because other mines are bad ?—Yes. Another reason is that the conditions change so much.

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133. But the conditions being better in one mine than in another, you say that that mine ought to conform as regards hours of labour to other mines where the conditions are bad ? —I must qualify that. Conditions may be good, and are undeniably good at times, but they change very quickly. If the Bill were not made applicable to all the mines, the very mine that was exempt might in the very near future come under the same conditions as the others. 134. You are making an assumption, and lam going to make another assumption. Are there any mines in New Zealand where the ventilation and water are good at all times?—Yes, there are, generally speaking. 135. Do you mean to tell me that it is the desire of the miners that in those mines their hours of labour should be limited by the hours of labour that ought to be worked in the worst mines in New Zealand ? —Of course, all mines are subject to impure air to a certain extent; some worse than others, of course. 136. Is it fair that the hours of labour in the best mine in New Zealand, with good water and air at all times, should be limited by the hours of labour that ought to be worked in the worst mine in New Zealand ?—I think so, on the grounds that I have already stated. 137. On what grounds ?—On the grounds of competition, and of their being liable to changes. 138. That is to say, that you desire, on behalf of the miners, to urge the point that a mine should be limited in its output, although it has good air and water, by a mine that has bad conditions ? —I urge it on the grounds that I consider the time specified is quite sufficient for a miner to work. 139. That is not an answer to my question. You, I understand, on behalf of the miners, desire that a good mine should be limited in its output by the possibilities of a bad mine ?—On the grounds of sudden changes occurring. 140. But suppose there are no sudden changes occurring, what then ? —I have yet to see a mine where there are not. 141. But suppose that there are mines that are not subject to sudden changes, where the ventilation and the air are good and there is no water, is it the desire of the union that the output of one such mine should be limited by what is put out from a mine that is bad in water and ventilation?—l do not think it is a fair question. 142. Have you not said that you desire that the output from a good mine should be limited by that from a bad one, so as not to have unfair competition ?—I have yet to see the mine where really good conditions do exist. 143. The mines vary ?—Yes. 144. Then, in a varying mine, is it your opinion that the good should be limited by the bad ? —That is so. 145. Now, do you not think that a mine where the conditions are good should have the advantage of those conditions in its output ?—I will answer that by saying that I have yet to see the mine where good conditions obtain. 146. I will put it in another way. Take any mine you like: Do you think that its output when it is in good condition should be limited by the possibilities of its output when it is in its worst condition ?—I take the good with the bad, and say that the hours should be specified. 147. The good should be put with the bad, and the hours should be specified in all mines?— Yes, in all mines. 148. You gave evidence about the bad air in mines, and the effect of it upon the miners' health : are the men allowed to go into a mine when the air is bad ?—ln many cases, yes. 149. Is that according to the law ?—No, it is not. 150. Do you mean to say that the law is broken ?—I have seen it broken as regards bad air existing in a mine. 151. Did you report it ? —I drew the attention of the manager to it. 152. And was it rectified ?—I am sorry to say we had to continue as long as we could. 153. Where was this ?—At Walton Park. 154. Does not the deputy go round to every face before every shift goes in, examine every place, and report whether the air is good or not, and whether the conditions are suitable for working ?—He does. 155. And does he not stop the men from going in if the conditions are bad? —It depends on the mine you are working in. 156. Take the Allandale Mine, when you were there ? —I answered that before. Speaking generally, the conditions were favourable when I was there. 157. Is your life insured ?—Yes. 158. Did you find any difficulty in insuring ?—I was on the railway when I insured. 159. How long ago was that?—l was insured only about five or six months. 160. Do the insurance companies make any difference if you are going back to a mine ?—I cannot speak positively on that point. 161. Have you been back to mining since ?—No. 162. Supposing that this Bill becomes law, what will be the effect on the day-wages men underground, as far as you know ? —I think it ought to be made applicable to them too. 163. It would shorten their hours by half an hour if it were passed?—Yes. 164. What effect would that have on their wages ? —That would depend on the agreement or award which they were working under. 165. Do you mean to say that the Bill, if passed, would break an agreement ?—No. I say it would depend on the agreement or award they were working under. I take it that the Bill would not come into operation until the expiration of an agreement. 166. At the expiration of the agreement, when the worker's wages have to be reconsidered with the shorter hours of work, what effect would the shorter hours have on his wages ?—Assessing the wages would be a question for the Court.

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167. It would be a question for the Court to say whether, with the shorter hours, he should have the same wages, or less ?—Yes. 168. If the Court decided to reduce the wages in proportion to the reduced hours, would the men prefer that to the existing conditions ? —I cannot say. I would prefer the same wage. 169. Personally, putting yourself in the position of one of the men, would you rather have the same wages and the same hours as at present, or less hours and less wages ?—I would rather have the same or higher wages with less hours of labour. 170. That is not my question. Would you rather have shorter hours and less pay, or the same hours and the same pay as at present ? —I think you put it in two questions. 171. The Chairman.] If this Bill was passed, and you knew the Court was going to reduce the wages, would you rather have shorter hours and less pay, or the present hours and the present pay ?—I would sooner have the shorter hours. 172. Mr. J. Allen.] And the less pay?—l would chance the less pay. 173. The Chairman.] With reference to a question put to you by Mr. Lang as to whether the Court should decide the matter of hours or whether it should be decided by Act of Parliament, have you read section 5, subsection (1), of the Act which this Bill is proposed to amend : " Subject to the provisions of the Act, a miner shall not be employed underground for a longer period in any day than eight hours, exclusive of meal-times " ? Supposing that we fix the limit at eight hours underground : if the Court is considering a case afterwards where the air is very bad, is there anything in that section to prevent the Court awarding five hours underground as a day's work ?—I do not know of anything. 174. We would not be preventing the Court reducing the hours of labour under this Bill ? Not that I know of. 175. Then, in the cases referred to by Mr. Lang, you know of nothing to prevent the Court fixing the time at five hours underground ?—I do not know the legal aspect of the matter. 176. Under the award of the Arbitration Court the hours at the Allandale Coal-mine and other mines are eight hours' actual work at the face ?—That is what I understand. 177. The employers down South have evidently considered the hours of labour awarded by the Court too long. They do not work the men the full eight hours at Kaitangata?—No ; seven hours and a half at the face. 178. Although the Court fixed a limit of eight hours?—Just so. That is what we are working under. 179. Hon. Mr. McGoivan.] In reply to a question by Mr. Allen, you said that you have yet to learn of a mine where good conditions obtain ? —I mean the best of conditions. 180. Did you mean that there was no coal-mine in New Zealand where good conditions as to air, and so on, always obtain ? —I meant without fluctuations. 181. You said that there was no mine where good conditions obtained : is that so, or is it not ?—Will you allow me to explain ? I meant that there was no mine where conditions obtained such as exist in regard to outside labour— i.e., in the matter of fresh air, and so forth. There is no mine that I know of where such conditions obtain as pure fresh air. 182. Do you know any mines that are worked from an open cutting ?—No. 183. In the coal-hewing, which is done by piecework, where the men, you say, could put out as much in six hours as in seven, do you know of any case in which the men themselves arrange to cut a certain quantity, and when that quantity of coal is ready to be trucked the " tired feeling " comes over them ?—You must allow for exceptions. I was speaking generally. 184. I will take your own words : they "fritter away" time?—Do I take your question to mean that they put on a limit ? 185. Yes ; after producing a certain amount the tired feeling comes over them ? I do not know of any cases of the kind now. There were such cases at one time, a good many years ago, but I do not know of any now. 186. That state of things does not exist so far- as the men you are acquainted with are concerned ?—No. 187. On some days a miner produces a much greater quantity of coal than others : is it that the tired feeling comes on after a certain amount of coal has been won, or after a certain time has been worked—does it depend on the quantity of coal cut or the time worked ?—lt depends on the exertion. 188. The greater the exertion the sooner the tired feeling comes on ?—The condition of the air has a lot to do with it. 189. If there is greater exertion there is greater output ?—Yes, most certainly. 190. Mr. Colvin.] Have you had any experience in quartz-mines ?—Yes, I have worked there. 191. What is the effect of working underground on a quartz-miner's health?—Men in quartzmines are subject to the fumes of nitro-glycerine, or any other explosive used for blasting purposes. In places where I have worked, at the end of the shift we have been compelled to walk the ladders out of the shaft. Through inhaling the fumes and then having to climb the ladders the men were subject to what the medical men call dilated heart, if I remember aright. A good many men were subject to it in Reefton when I was there. 192. In your opinion, then, the working of shorter hours would be of great benefit to the health of the men working in quartz-mines in the Reefton district ?—Yes ; they would have more fresh air. 193. Do the unions that you are connected with only desire that Parliament should fix a maximum time for the hours of labour in mines, such as seven or seven and a half, and leave it to the Arbitration Court to fix shorter hours in inferior mines where the conditions are not good ?—That is the feeling—that the maximum hours should be fixed.

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194 Mr R McKenzie.] When you said, in answer to Mr. Allen, that you never knew a mine where the conditions were good, you did not mean that all the mines of the colony were badly ventilated ?—No. ... . „ , ... . u „ 195. Is it a fact, from your experience, that the air in a mine generally changes with toe weather outside? —Yes. 196. A close, muggy day outside means bad air inside?—Yes. 197 You meant that the conditions may be all right in the morning, and in the afternoon you may have bad air—in anv mine ?—Yes. Most mines are subject to atmospheric changes. 198. You did not mean to imply that the conditions were always bad m all mines ?—No. _ 199! With regard to the question of competition, are you aware of the rates paid for hewing coal in New South Wales ?—They vary. 200 As compared with the rates paid in New Zealand, which are the best paid—the Newcastle colliers or those in any part of New Zealand ?—I have no figures to substantiate my statement, but from what I can gather the rates paid to miners at Newcastle are m advance ol those paid here. . , . 201 They have an Arbitration Court there also ?—Yes ;it has recently come into vogue. 202. Practically all the competition in regard to coal in this colony comes from New South Wales?—Yes. . „ „ -, 203. Mr. Colvin.] You worked in the Denniston Mine about six years ago I— lwo years and 204 What were the hours that the men used to work at the face before the Arbitration and Conciliation Act came in ?—Eight hours was the limit. The men knocked off when they were tired. v 205. A man could knock off though the rope was working a'—Yes. 206. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Is one of the effects of bad- air in a mine a feeling of sleepiness or Hvfiwmnpss y— — Ygs 207. Until you faint away altogether, if it becomes bad enough ?—Yes, you become uncon'°2oB. U So that this tired feeling is really the effect of bad air and over-exertion ?—Yes, the two 209. Mr. Gilfedder.] You say that you are working seven hours at the face now at both Kaitangata and Castle Hill ? —Yes. . 210. Under the proposed measure you reckon you would work only six hours and a halt I— 65 '211. Do the miners as a whole consider that the time they are underground should be computed out of the working-time—i.e., from bank to bank?—Yes. 212 Is it also the impression of the miners that the output would not be seriously affected bv the reduction of half an hour in the working-time?—That is our impression. ~...., 213 The amount of coal produced would be the same ?—lt would not be seriously diminished. 214. Consequently, if it were not diminished, you would expect to get the same remuneration for day-wages ?—That is right. , 215. Do you think those on piecework would make the same money under the altered conditions as they are making now ?—Yes. _ . 216 You are working only one shift ?—Two in one mine ana one m the other. 217. Mr. Guinness.] What number of miners are in the union that you represent ?—bpeaking approximately a ort ■ &q[ meaBUr6j have the minerB taken into consideration that the inclusion of the meal-time in the eight hours from bank to bank may have the effect of lessening the wages to some slight extent ?-I could not say that the question has been considered by every branch in that way. I got instructions to attend to the matter, and to assist, as far as I could, towards the passing of the Bill. .. ~. ~ T 219. What do you think is a reasonable time to allow the miners for crib or meal time >—1 reckon, hour necessary to state in the Bill that meal time should be taken out of the working-hours, " not exceeding half an hour" would be a reasonable provision to PUt WITmI' Herries.] How manv branches are there in the union thatyou represent ?—Seven 222'. You said, in answer to Mr. Guinness, that you received instructions to support this Bill ? -Y< 223 Who did you receive them from ?—From the various secretaries of the local branches. _ 224! Has the Bill been before all the branches ?-Evidently so, because I got the communications without anything going from myself. 225 That means that they have considered the matter? —They must have done so. There is'one thing I should like to add. Apart from the question of the impurity of the air, there are other conditions attached to mining, such as working in a very wet place, that make it unhealthy. ProvisionTs made in nearly all the awards for six hours' work m those places. Then, here are persons who get very wet from perspiration. I could, if necessary have brought workmen s clothes which would seem as if they had been dragged through a nver-that is, through working in heated places Then in respect to the time allowed for travelling, I might say that in some of the mines travelling is v'erv hard and laborious owing to the crouched and cramped position that you have to ifluml in walking through the low places. That is why we consider the time taken m travelling should be included. . . 226. The Chairman.] Included m what?—ln the working-time. • 227. Mr. J. Allen.] Should the time taken in going down a shaft be included too ?—Most decidedly.

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228. The Chairman.] Do you inhale bad air going down a shaft ?—There are always the fumes. 229. Mr. J. Allen.] You were speaking about wet places, and the Court awarding shorter time to the men working in them. Supposing this Bill made the hours of labour fixed ones, would you still desire that the time to be worked in wet places should be fixed by the Court ? —Yes, I think so. 230. Then, you want the time to be worked in wet places fixed by the Court, and the time in other places fixed by the Legislature ?—Yes, I think that is only fair. 231. Has the question of reduced wages for shorter hours been discussed by your union ?—Yes, it has been discussed, but nothing definite has been arrived at. I was empowered to do what I could towards getting the measure passed. 232. What I want to get at is this: Do the miners desire shorter hours, even though that necessitates less wages'?—l could not speak for every miner on that point. Waltee Rogees examined. (No. 11.) 233. The Chairman.] What is your name? —Walter Rogers. 234. Where do you live ?—At Blackball. 235. What is your occupation ?—I am a miner. 236. A gold or coal miner ?—At present I am a coal-miner. 237. Do you belong to any union ?—I am secretary to the Blackball Miners' Union. 238. Mr. Guinness.] Have the Blackball coal-miners considered the proposed amendment in the Bill that I have introduced this session, including the meal-time in the eight hours from bank to bank ?—They have. 239. What is the opinion of the miners on the clause ? —The Blackball miners feel that it is just the thing necessary for them. They think that the present hours are too long. After seven hours' work a miner slackens off owing to his being exhausted. 240. The Chairman.] How many shifts do they work at the Blackball Mine ?—Two. 241. When does the first go on?— K quarter to 6, I think, is the starting-time from outside. 242. When do they leave the surface ?—At a quarter to 6. 243. And when do they reach the surface again ?—At 2 o'clock. 244. How far have the men to go before they get to their faces and commence work ?—Different distances. The majority of them have to go about 500 yards. 245. Some get to their faces quicker than others?—Yes. 246. Do those who have the shortest distance to go commence work immediately on reaching their faces, or do they wait till the men working at the faces furthest away get into the faces, or how do they manage?—They start work as soon as they enter the working-faces. 247. Some work longer than others ? —Yes. Of course, those who have the shortest distance to go start working first. 248. How long do you have for crib at Blackball ?— A quarter of an hour. 249. On the average, how long does it take the men to get out ? —About ten minutes. 250. How long to go in ? —lt takes them longer to walk in, because there is a sort of incline in the travelling-road, and going in is all on the up grade. 251. What do you think the difference would be ?—At least five minutes. 252. That makes twenty-five minutes, and, with a quarter of an hour for crib, makes forty minutes to come off the time from a quarter to 6 till 2 o'clock ? —That is right. 253. Mr. Guinness.] What is the number of miners on each shift, on the surface and underground ?—About sixty-five men and boys underground on each shift—say, 130 in the two shifts, or thereabouts. 254. The mine is worked by a tunnel, is it not ? —Yes. 255. What is the time that the miners are actually working at the face under present arrangements ? —About seven hours and three-quarters, I should think, or a little less than that. 256. Forty minutes off eight hours and fifteen minutes would leave seven hours and thirty-five minutes ? —Yes. 257. So that the actual time worked would be seven hours and thirty-five minutes, without counting crib and travelling time ? —Yes. 258. You state that you have been gold and coal mining: what is the total length of time ?— Twenty-one years. 259. What do you say, with regard to the work of a miner, as to its being as healthy an occupation as work on the surface, or not? —As far as my experience teaches me, men working underground are always affected, and in any number of cases where they have worked for twenty-five or thirty years, and sometimes a good deal less, their health gives way. I refer to both quartz and coal miners. 260. Have you had any evidence as to whether working at Blackball is more unhealthy than at other mines, or healthier ?—lf it is of any service to you, I have a note here from the medical practitioner now at Blackball. 261. The miners have a medical association there, have they not?—Yes. 262. Is this a report from your medical officer as to the unhealthy nature of the work at Blackball? —Yes. I will hand it in. [Document handed in.] 263. You have worked in quartz-mines?—Yes. 264. Can you speak as to the need for this amendment in the law with regard to miners working in quartz-mines?—Yes. Quartz-miners are subject to the same conditions as coal-miners. They have to contend with the smoke caused by the various explosives used, and the use of explosives causes impure air, decayed timber, and other things detrimental to the health of the workers.

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265. Then, you say that, generally speaking, your evidence is the same with regard to working in quartz-mines as coal-mines ?—The only difference that my experience shows me is that the coalminer works at a quicker rate than the majority of other miners. The work is generally done by piece, and there is what the miners call the "turn"— i.e., the turn of trucks throughout the mine —and if a pair of men are not able to keep their turn going, and it passes them, that is lost for the shift; so that on several different occasions they have to make an extra effort to keep this turn up. 266. Suppose that the actual working-time at the face was reduced by half an hour or threequarters of an hour a day, do you think a miner could get as much coal in the reduced time as he would if he worked the full eight hours ? —As far as I can see, he could. 267. The reduction of half an hour to an hour in the hours of cutting would not lessen the quantity of coal that he could cut ?—Not in my opinion. As I said, miners—particularly coalminers—are generally very tired and exhausted long before the eight hours is up, and, taking the first four hours and the second four hours of a shift, there is a good deal of difference in the output. 268. Mr. J. Allen.] According to your statement, you are actually coal-cutting now about seven hours and thirty-five minutes at the face ?—Yes. 269. Do you have any " smoke-ho," or stoppage for rests, or anything of the kind?—No; I have never seen anything of " smoke-ho " connected with mining. 270. You say that you think a miner could produce in a shorter time as much as he is now producing in the present time worked : in how much shorter time could he ? —The coal-miners have usually had just about enough in the last hour. 271. Then, taking off an hour, at your mine a man could do about as much in six hours and thirty-five minutes as he now does in seven hours and thirty-five minutes ? —Yes, that is what I mean. 272. Now, what happens in your mine in the last hour : is the trucking continued as actively as in the first six hours ?—Yes. 273. And is there as much coal going away?—No. 274. If the mine-manager says there is, is he saying that which is not correct?—l think so, as far as I can see. 275. You put the limit at six hours and thirty-five minutes. Now, I want to ask you this : Do you think you could do in six hours what you are doing in seven hours and thirty-five minutes ? —Well, I would not like to say. 276. The Chairman.] You have been working in a mine for a long time ? —Yes. 277. Surely you could tell us, then, pretty well what you could do ?—There is a good deal of difference in the faces that a miner has to work in. In some faces a man may be able to get a larger quantity in a certain time than in others. 278. Mr. J. Allen.] Take the same face—an easy one if you like : suppose that you can get 2 tons now in seven hours and thirty-five minutes, could you get 2 tons from the same place in six hours ?—I would not like to say I could. 279. I want to get at the limit, with reasonable exertion. You understand what I mean by that ?—Yes. 280. The Chairman.] If you could get 2 tons in seven hours and thirty-five minutes without overstraining yourself, in what time could you get the same quantity, working continuously, but allowing for crib-time ?—ln about seven hours. 281. Mr. J. Allen.] Instead of seven hours and thirty-five minutes?—Yes. 282. Is it your opinion that a miner can work in a decent mine for seven hours—good, hard work—without overdoing himself ?—Yes. 283. If another miner says that he gets overdone in six hours, working in as good a place, you are not of that opinion ?—There is a difference in the workmen. 284. Is there not a difference in the workmen ? —Yes, there is. One man may knock himself up, by working hard, in six hours, and it may take another seven before he is knocked up. 285. Some men could produce in a shorter time as much as they are now producing in a longer time?—Yes. 286. Is that true of all miners ?—The majority. 287. Is it true of all?—Some men have a style and system of working for a number of hours, and they gradually get slower, while other men can increase the rate of their work. 288. As I understand, you now lay down seven hours as a reasonable limit for coal-hewing in a decent mine ? —Yes. 289. With regard to the healthiness or otherwise of mining—of course, we all know it is underground work, and so on —are not a miner's wages per day higher than those of an ordinary outside labourer? —Yes ; but taking the time that he works into consideration, week in and week out, I do not think he is paid anything high. 290. You mean all the year round ?—Yes. 291. But I am talking of the wage per day?—Yes, it is a little higher. 292. Then, if a miner is not working he is not under the bad conditions, is he ?—No. 293. He is outside taking a holiday ?—That is true. 294. How many holidays in a year does an average miner in your district get ?—The average working-time would be about eight or nine days a fortnight—say, about four days and a half a week. 295. All the year round ?—Yes. 296. A day and a half a week holiday, all the year round, on an average ?—Yes. 297. You still think that, with a day and a half holiday each week, all the year round, seven hours and thirty-five minutes a day is too long a time to work at the face for the time a man is working ?—Yes, I think so.

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298. Your union has considered this Bill ? —Yes. 299. Have you any agreement or award ?—Yes we are working under an award at present. 300. When was it made ?—ln March last. 301. It was made under the 1901 Act?—Yes. 302. You work eight hours and a quarter from bank to bank ?—Yes. 303. Would this Bill of Mr. Guinness's reduce the hours ?—Yes. 304. Do your miners expect that the Bill, if passed, will override the award as regards hours of labour ? Do you expect that the hours will be reduced during the currency of the award ?— No, I do not think they expect that. 305. Perhaps you do not understand me. How long has the award to run ?—Till the 31st March, 1904. 306. Then, do you expect that the award shall continue the day-wages men's present rate of pay, and that the Bill shall reduce the hours before the expiry of the award ? —I could hardly answer that question just now. 307. Can you not say?—No, I cannot say. 308. If, owing to this Bill being passed and the hours of labour being shortened, the daywages to the men were reduced, would they prefer the shorter hours with a smaller day-wage to the existing wage with the present hours?—l think the present shift-wage is low enough at present, and I think the men would not dream of taking anything less. 309. Can you answer that for the men?—l cannot. 310. What would you say for yourself if you were a day-wages man?—lf they could give me full time for the week instead of the present time, I would prefer the extra time. That is to say, I would prefer the lesser hours if I had six days' work a week. 311. You get only four days and a half per week on an average?—Somewhere thereabouts. 312. With the four days and a half a week on an average, which would you prefer—the lesser hours and lesser wage, or the present hours and the present wage ?—Speaking for myself, I would take the higher wage. 313. Mr. Colvin.] But if you could get full time you would prefer the shorter number of hours a day ? —Yes, certainly. 314. Mr. Lang.] I understand that the miners whom you represent wish this Bill to become law : is that so ?—Yes. 315. This Bill would have the effect of reducing the time that the miners work ?—Yes. 316. And the miners you represent would prefer that being brought about by legislation to leaving it to the Arbitration Court?—Yes. 317. We have had it given in evidence by a witness representing a miners' union that their reason for preferring the matter being dealt with by the Legislature rather than the Arbitration Court is that the Court causes turmoil and bitter feeling : is that your reason for preferring the Legislature ?—Yes; there are certain reasons in that. 318. Mr. R. McKenzie.] In answer to Mr. Allen, I think you said that higher wages—daywages—were paid to coal-miners than to the average run of other workmen. For what reason are higher wages paid to miners ?—One of the principal reasons is on account of the conditions they have to contend with in their work. Another reason is that the average run of men outside, when they get employment, work six days a week, whereas the coal-miners are subject to loss of time. If you look round a mining community you will find that a majority of the men in hospitals, and so forth, are miners, laid up owing to the causes I have mentioned. 319. One of the reasons why you think that miners are entitled to more wages is on account of the conditions under which they work —bad air and the danger of the occupation?—Yes. 320. You do not run as much risk of accident outside as you do in a mine—there is nothing to fall from the roof and knock you on the head if you are outside, is there ?—No. 321. Have you worked in any coal-mine on the West Coast other than the Blackball?—Yes; in the Brunner. 322. How about this tired feeling: have you been asked about that ?—The men generally work in pairs. When the first shift goes in the mine is usually clear, but after they have been working a little while the fumes from the explosives used to shoot the coal down are carried from one pair to another, and the temperature of the mine is increased. Any time after, we will say, the first three hours' work you will find the men in a lather of perspiration ; you would think their clothes had been in water instead of being wetted through heat. Any reasonable man will understand that that cannot be continued for seven or eight hours without the tired feeling coining on. In my experience I have generally found that after the six hours there is a difference altogether, and the majority of the men that I have spoken to say that it is the same with them as with me. 323. Do you think that one result of working in bad air is lassitude, until you become unconscious ? —Yes. 324. So that you think that by working six hours you can get pretty well as much coal as if you work eight hours ?—Yes ; we would not have so much time to live in the fumes. 325. Is there any limit to the quantity of coal a miner at your mine can put out by the number of tubs ?—There is no limit. 326. You can get tubs at any time you want them ?—Yes. Some shifts may be delayed by a breakdown of the rope, but usually there are as many tubs as you can fill. 327. Does that apply to the Brunner Mine as well ? —-Yes, I think so. It did during my time at the Brunner. 328. Do you not have to get the tubs in turn ?—Yes. 329. How can you get them out of your turn ? —You cannot get them out of your turn; but the number of miners employed in the Brunner Mine has decreased, and the smaller number of miners have a large number of tubs each, 7—l. 4a.

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| WALTER ROGERS.

330. Have you ever worked at Denniston ?—No. 331. Can you get out of the Blackball Mine while the haulage is going on?—You can go out. 332. Are you allowed to go out? —Not at present. The rope has stopped since, I think, the eight-hours-and-a-quarter day has been in force. 333. So that the men who are getting coal on piecework, whether they have done what they consider a good day's work or not, have to stop in the mine till the haulage stops ?—Yes. 334. Is that the case in the Brunner also? —It was in my time. 335. If this Bill became law the men working on piecework could get to the surface half an hour a day earlier ?—Yes. 336. Is it the general wish of the miners in your district that the Bill should pass ?—That is the general wish. 337. Mr. Colvin.] You have had experience in a quartz-mine?—Yes. 338. Do you consider eight hours too long to work at the face in a quartz-mine ? : —Yes, I do. 339. Where have you worked?—ln a quartz-mine in Victoria. 340. Is it more injurious to work in a quartz-mine for eight hours than in a coal-mine?—l do not think there is a great deal of difference between the two. The difference that I have noticed is that in a quartz-mine the dust flying about after explosions, and so forth, is heavier, and a quartzminer who once gets miners' complaint seldom recovers. 341. The Chairman.] Miners' complaint is dust in the lungs?—Yes. 342. Mr. Colvin.] Do you know if the quartz-miners are anxious to have the Bill passed, as well as the coal-miners ? —Not being connected with quartz-mining at present, I could not speak for quartz-miners. 343. You believe that working in a quartz-mine has a tendency to shorten the duration of life?—Undoubtedly, I do. 344. You think that quartz-mining is not a healthy occupation ? —Yes, I do think so. 345. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Have you ever worked in a coal-mine in New South Wales ? —No. 346. Do you know anything about the rates paid for coal-hewing in New South Wales as compared with those paid in New Zealand ?—I believe the rates paid in New South Wales are higher than those in this colony. 347. Have there been any communications between your union and the unions in New South Wales on the question ? —None that I know of. 348. Mr. Herries.] You say that you are working under an award ?—Yes. 349. What are the hours specified in the award?—According to the amending Act of 1901, clause 6, I think eight hours, exclusive of meal-times. 350. Is that specified ? —Yes, in regard to miners. 351. Was the question argued before the Judge whether the crib-time should be excluded or included?—l do not think it was put to him. 352. Did not the miners consider the question at that time ?—Oh, yes, they had considered it. 353. Did they ask for the crib-time to be excluded?—l think so. I think the Labour Council has been advocating that since its inception. 354. Did you represent the miners before the Court ?—Not in this particular case. 355. Were you in Court at the time ?—No. 356. How does the coal come out of the mine at Blackball ?—There is a winding-engine— endless rope. 357. Is there no shaft ?—No shaft. 358. How many men are there employed there getting out the coal —I mean in the haulage ? —About twenty or twenty-one pair of miners. 359. That would be about twenty each shift ?—Yes, something like that. 360. They would have half an hour less work, the same as the other men, would they not, if the Bill became law ? —Do you mean the men who are getting paid now at the rate of seven hours and a half a day ? 361. If they came under the Bill they would only work seven hours?—Yes. 362. Could they haul out the same amount of coal in seven hours as they are doing now ?—I think that if the machinery is capable of doing it the men are. 363. Do you think the machinery is capable ? —I think so. 364. What would happen if, when the men at the face knocked off, they had got a tub full of coal, and the men engaged in hauling knocked off too ?—lt would be the same as it is at present. When they knock off, if you have a tub standing full in your face it waits till the next shift comes on. 365. Then, you think the haulage-men could do the same work in less time ?—I think so. 366. And the machinery could do the same ?—Yes. 367. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Is there any reason why the truckers should not be paid by piecework as well as the hewers ?—I think that, according to the award of the Court, it is at the option of the management to give them either piecework or day-wages. 368. As far as you know, there is no reason why the truckers should not be employed on piece as well as the men engaged in cutting coal ?—None whatever. 369. There is a trucker to every two miners ? —No. 370. To every four miners, then ?—lt depends on the circumstances. Sometimes two truckers may be able to attend to five or six pairs of miners ; at other times it may take two truckers to look after half that number of miners. It depends on circumstances—among which is the distance the men are running from the faces. 371. You are perfectly well satisfied that it could be arranged for them to work on piecework, the same as the other men ?—I see nothing to stop them.

JOHN FOSTER.]

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372. Mr. W Fraser.] Did I understand you to say that vou expect that this Bill if it becomes law will alter the hours that you are working according to toe awa" There a Sw that miiTh 6 T ar i t0 be , in T and Wh6ther * he "™*d "would be subject t a new law that might be made afterwards I could not say. y 373 Do you expect the award to be altered by the Bill if it becomes law—that is what undeTunto *"* that M ° f * e men ™ d that the to be woTkel nv J]tu D ° 6 ™ r ?. and those working under the award mean to abide loyally by the award or are they asking Parliament to pass a law to alter it?-Oh, no; they are satisfied tckelp to the terms of the award until it expires. ° Kee P ™ m ll 5 ' 88 -] Supposing the crib-time was included in the time to be worked as nro vided by the Bill would the men work under that if the Bill were passed, or would thevsiH keep to the award where the crib-time is excluded ?-I think the majority of the men are under the impression that they must work under the award until it expires 376. Mr R. McKenzie.] You know the Bill that was passed last vear, in which there is a clause ,nd !IL Mr ' Gmn l ms 2i Yo ? said that some of the men hewing coal were working on drift wages 0 " FeCe 6S - lQ S ° me f6W exce P tional cases "5 getting coal wer! employed °on 378. What is the number ?—Sometimes there are none at all. The management if thev can %t?L% tS SJT"" ™ en Be " bs COi " em! " oyea °" ■■*-« tJSS^SSE 379. The manager tries all he can to get the coal out by piecework, but sometimes he has to employ a few men for a few days on day-wages?-Yes, that is right. sometimes he has half aW'h becomes law, and if your evidence is incorrect where you say that by workine l a . hour ° r , an hour less per day the same quantity of coal can be got as if you worked hf extra time, the loss will fall not upon the management, but upon the miners, will £ not ?- that WheQ y ° U W ° rked * uartz - mine was no such thing as a half--382. When you knock off at the end of a week on a Saturday, is there any work done besides the actual bnngmg-out of the quartz or drilling to put in a shot, with regard teTsecuSaces'The pair of miners on the last shift in the week take extra precautions to look af ei theQuartz " l6fC Standlng; they PUt ln tlme in «*» t0 -curetheMte on S vfc w l ' the. twenty-four hours or thirty-six hours, as the case may be ?-Yes 384. Would it be a fair thing to compare a day's work or half-day's work on a Saturdav JF^nftSEXiST oot ' ™ h " ,0 wo,k <,0 " e " - °' iL " - h « John Fostbe examined. (No. 12.) 385. The Chairinan.] What is your name, Mr. Foster?—John Foster. 386. Where did you live?—At Denniston Hill, Westport. 387. What is your occupation?—Check-weighman. 388. Where ?—At the Denniston Coal-mine Uniom 9 ' D ° y ° U bel ° ng t0 any Uni ° n ° f mine rsP-Yes; lam the president of the Denniston Abou 3 t 9 &en[yy^7 m ' ] ° f y6arB ' ex P erience have you had as a coal-mmer?-but tfat isl°S. in ' C ° al ' mine ? ~ YeS - l haVS bßen ° fi f ° r a «** d-ing that period, te n^asjs. wafc in the mine that you are at? - The number ° f 393. What is the total number of workmen ?—From about 475 to 500 394. Out of which 330 are colliers '—330 b,p^„?ritS ? -Yes e Pr ° ViSionS ° f tWS amendmg Bm br ° Ught mby me thls — 396. What is the general opinion with regard to the advisability of passing the Bill or not ? The general opinion is that they require eight hours from bank to bank § qoq xi n ? the crib or meal time should be included in those eight hours'-Yes qoo «7°u excluded from . as the law stands now?—Not excluded. 399. What is a reasonable time to take for crib, in your opinion '—It has alwav« h oo n fho custom since I have been in a mine to take half an hour. ' y been the 400. You think that is reasonable ?—Yes, I think it is. 401. Can you give the Committee any information as to whether, in your opinion the work of a coal-miner is injurious o his health-more so or less so than if he were workingTtoe surface J - 8 m T mjUn T B ■}** WOrkin § on the surface < h a man has to inhale all kinds of polluted a,r underground. In my opinion, it does not matter how well a mine is ventilated the air is not even then the same as it would be on the surface. ventilated, the 402. Do you know of any special cases of illness ?—Not particularly any special cases • hut mostly all our colliers when they get to forty or forty-five complain of astoma 7 and so forth ' We have had men who have been knocked off work at that time, but all miners complain--

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[JOHN FOSTER.

403. Do you think that shortening the hours of work underground would be beneficial to the miners' health?—l think so. 1 think that eight hours underground from bank to bank is long enough for any man to be underground. 404. What is about the time that the miners are underground now according to the present law ?—At our mine the average, I suppose, would be about—close on nine hours. At some of the places it would not be so long, because some places are nearer to the outcrop than others, consequently some men have to go further than others. 405. What time does it take at the Denniston Mine now to go from the surface to the face ? — In our award we made arrangements that the miners should be eight hours at the face, including crib-time, and they should walk in and out in their own time, in order to work under the present law that is in vogue. I consider that if this Bill becomes law the miners will be in the mine at the very least, taking it all round, long and short, half an hour less. 406. Including crib-time ? —lncluding crib-time. 407. Can you give the Committee any information as to whether a miner, though he had his time shortened by half an hour a day, we will say, could win the same quantity of coal in the lesser time?—Yes. My experience of coal-mining is this : A coal-miner can do all that is in him in seven hours. He can do his work comfortably in seven hours. Ido not think there is anything gained by keeping a miner in the mine too long. 408. Do you mean to say that a miner can do in seven hours as much work underground as if he is at the face eight hours ? —I do. 409. When do the miners feel the inconvenience of the length of work? —Sometimes a miner cannot get the work done because he cannot get trucks ; but if the trucks are there he wants to get them filled, and after he has been at it seven hours he has had enough. I may say that before the Conciliation and Arbitration Act came into force the miners in our district were at liberty to knock off when they had had enough, and the result was that some of them would go off at 2 o'clock after six hours' work, and from that time on to half-past 4 they would be going off. I may say that at that time the company placed men in different positions for months, taking the average time at which the miners knocked off, and brought it in as evidence before the Arbitration Court. But, unfortunately for the company, the Court did not uphold them, and gave us the old conditions. 410. What point did they wish to establish by that evidence ?—That the miners did not stop in the mine for eight hours. We were asking for an increased price, and they were wanting to prove that we did not stop in the mine for eight hours. They were bringing this evidence to prove that if we stopped the eight hours we could make more money. 411. You answered that by saying that the miners were worked out before the expiration of eight hours ?—Yes ; that they were satisfied. 412. If the passing of this Bill had the effect of lessening the wages, in your opinion would the miners be prepared to support the measure ? —I think so ; but Ido not think it would have the effect of lessening the wages at all. 413. Have you had any experience of quartz-mines ?—I have. 414. Have you worked in them ?—Yes, for about ten years. 415. When you were working in a quartz-mine was it the general custom to have a half-day's holiday on Saturday?—No, it was not. 416. Are any special preparations made in the work on the last day of the week for, so to speak, fixing up the faces ? —Yes ; there is always special work carried out on the last day of the week, because the mine has to stand idle for twenty-four or thirty-six hours. 417. The special work is to secure the faces ?—Yes. 418. Would Saturday be a fair day to take to get an average of the amount of quartz mined rather than Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday?—Certainly not. 419. Why ?—Because if there is any extra work, or anything of that to be done, it has to be done then. 420. A miner's time for getting quartz out is reduced, then ?—Yes. 421. Mr. J. Allen.] Have you got any coal-cutting machines at your mine ?—There are about forty men working on the machines. The machines work three shifts. 422. Do you mean forty on each shift?—No; from twelve to fourteen each shift—forty altogether. Generally in the daytime there are very few machines working, because the back and night shifts are shutting down, and they fill up in the morning shift. 423. Is working a machine hard work ? —Yes, it is ; some of it is very hard work. 424. Is a miner worked out in seven hours and a half with a machine ?—Yes; he has had plenty of it then. 425. Could the machine do as much in seven hours as it can do now in seven hours and a half ?—Yes. lam of the opinion that the machine is the same as the miner in that respect. A man who is working a machine can do as much in seven hours as in eight. 426. At what number of hours do you put the limit of a miner in a decent mine ? How many hours could he work before he is worked out ? —I say, as I have said before, that seven hours is quite sufficient, 427. You think a miner can work seven hours without overdoing himself?—Yes, honestly and fairly working. 428. You think that applies also to the machine-men ? —I do. 429. If other evidence had been given to us that a miner can work only six hours continuously, do you agree with it ? —No, not altogether ; I think seven hours a very fair thing. 430 Are the men working under an agreement at Denniston?—Yes. 431 For how long ?—The agreement was for two years ; it has about eighteen months to run from now.

JOHN FOSTER.]

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432. Are the hours of labour specified in the agreement? —Yes. 433. Would this Bill alter the hours before the expiry of the agreement?—Not to my mind. 434. Do the miners desire that it should?—l do not think so. Ido not desire that it should, at any rate. 435. When the agreement had run out the Bill would alter the hours?—Certainly. 436. Will you explain what you meant when you said that a miner would not be able to get trucks sometimes ?—There are various reasons why he cannot get them at times. There might be breakdowns here and there, or mishaps, or unforeseen things. 437. Are those the only reasons? —Perhaps a mine-manager has got his mine overstocked with labour, and cannot supply trucks. 438. Is that the case at Denniston at busy times?—No, I do not say that; but I know it is the case in many places in New Zealand. 439. That the mine is overstocked with men, and the trucks cannot be supplied to them? —Yes. 440. Now, if the hours of labour are cut down by half an hour, and a miner produces in that reduced time as much as he does now, will that require a greater number of trucks to be served in that time ? A quicker supply of trucks to the men will be required if they are doing more work in a shorter time? —Yes, certainly. 441. How can that take place in a mine which is overstocked with men, and there is a difficulty now to keep up the supply of trucks ?—Where a miner cannot get trucks sometimes, it is caused by the mine-manager overstocking the mine with men. That is what I say. 442. Take the case of a mine overstocked with men. If this Bill comes into force and the men have to put out in half an hour less time as much as they are now putting out, will it not require a quicker supply of trucks to the men in order to get the stuff away ?—To get the same amount of coal out in the reduced time, the same amount of trucks would have to go in in half an hour less time. But that does not alter my previous answer : the overstocking of the mine is the minemanager's fault; it is not the workmen's look-out. 443. But the mine-manager has got his customers to supply ?—Yes. 444. And has to get out in half an hour less as much coal as he is new getting out ?—Yes. 445. What I want to get at is this : Supposing that the men work half an hour a day less, how is the mine-owner to supply trucks to the men in half an hour less time in order to get the same output ?—Put stronger machinery on to cope with the difficulty. 446. Is that the only way of coping with it ?—ln any case, if he wants to increase his production 447. It is not a question of increasing the production ; it is a question of keeping the production at the same amount, though working shorter hours. He would have to put on extra machinery —is that your answer? —I say that if the owner's hauling-rope is not good enough to get out the same amount of stuff in less time he must put on fresh machinery. 448. How many men are there employed on day-wages at Denniston ? —I suppose, about four hundred. 449. How would this Bill affect them ?—lt would make their hours shorter. 450. If their hours are to be shorter, do they expect to get the same wages as they are getting now ?—Yes. 451. Would that increase the cost of production? —I do' not think so. 452. Are the machine-men on day-wages? —Yes. 453. And the truckers ?—A portion of them. 454. Are there plenty of trucks at the Denniston Mine to keep the miners going at a busy time now?—Yes. 455. Are there any to spare? —I do not care about interfering with the Denniston Mine. Ask the question generally. 456. If you do not know, say so ?—I do not know whether there are more than enough. 457. There are enough to keep them going regularly?—Yes, now. 458. Were you speaking of the Denniston Mine when you said that under certain conditions the men could not get trucks ? —Of any mine. 459. Is it true of the Denniston Mine that there are occasions when you cannot get trucks?— I do not want to single out the Denniston Mine. 460. Generally, then, the men cannot get trucks occasionally?—Sometimes they cannot get trucks. 461. Mr. Lang.] I understood you to say that the effect of this Bill would be to reduce the working-hours by half an hour a day ?—Yes, something like that. 462. Now, do not different conditions exist in different mines throughout the colony : are not some mines better and healthier to work in than others? —Yes ; I must say that is so, especially where there is a little gas. I would sooner work in a mine where there was a little gas than where there was none, because I should be looked after then. 463. Some mines are better and healthier to work in than others?—Quite so. 464. Under those circumstances, would it not be more desirable, instead of passing special legislation dealing with the hours of labour, to have the question settled by the Arbitration Court ? —-In that connection I might tell the Committee this :In 1895, when the Act came into force, we were the first to take action, and have been arguing the point ever since with the Arbitration Court, trying to get it to deal with the matter of hours. But the Court refused point-blank to do so, because the eight-hours question was before the House all the time. Judge Williams and Judge Edwards said that they would not touch the question of hours, because it was under the consideration of the Government, and an Bight Hours Bill was expected to become law. 465. Am I to understand, then, that the Arbitration Court have not dealt with the hours of labour in the mines ?—No, they have not.

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[JOHN FOSTER.

466. Other witnesses representing the miners' union have given as their reason for not wishing to place the matter under the control of the Arbitration Court that Arbitration Court proceedings created turmoil, trouble, and bitter feeling: is that your experience or opinion?—The .Arbitration Court has never dealt with the hours of labour with us. We have asked the Court to do so, but it has refused, and we have signed our agreements under the conditions of the Act of last session as regards the hours and overtime. 467. But does the sitting of the Court create a feeling such as the witnesses mentioned— i.e., a feeling of bitterness ?—No, not in my experience. 468. Would it not be better to work for, we will say, eight hours in some mines where the conditions are healthy than six hours in an unhealthy one ?—I do not know that there is that much difference. 469. But there would be a difference ?—Yes, certainly; but 1 think that eight hours from bank to bank is a fair thing for a miner, no matter where he is. 470. I take it that you would regulate the hours of work by the hours in the most unhealthy mine ? —It is very hard for me, or any one else, to define what is a healthy mine. I think that all mines would come under the same category, provided they were properly ventilated, as they should be according to the Mining Act, though some mines are more damp than others. Ido not think you can classify the mines in that way. I think they should all stand on the same level. 471. How long do you think a man should work in a healthy mine?—l think seven hours a day is enough in any mine. 472. If seven hours is enough in a healthy mine, surely it is too much in an unhealthy one ?— That is so. There are plenty of places that men go to work at, and have to go home again. 473. This Bill would not meet those cases, would it ?—No, certainly not. 474. That was my reason for asking whether the matter would not be more satisfactorily dealt with by the Arbitration Court, if they would undertake it ?—ln the district I belong to often five or six men go home in a day, probably through no fault of the management. They find the air impure, and have to go away home. 475. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Do you think there is such a thing as a healthy mine ?—No ; Ido not think there is such a thing. I think all mines are unhealthy. 476. Some may be a little better than others ? —Certainly. 477. Is it a fact that the air may be what you would call pure in a mine in the morning or up to 2 or 3 o'clock, and then become foul, changing withm an hour or half an hour ?—Certainly. 478. Is it also a fact that it is invariably worse in the afternoon than in the forenoon, on account of shots being fired, and the men breathing the air, and so on ? —Certainly. A man fires a shot, and the air is polluted all round immediately. 479. With reference to this tired feeling that has been referred to, it has been stated by yourself and others that a miner gets exhausted after seven hours or so. Is that feeling the result of bad air ?—Yes. My experience of this tired feeling is that it comes from the damp. A man is lying down holing, and there is a fireclay underneath. It is throwing off the damp all the time, and he is inhaling this. It makes his limbs ache, and he feels out of sorts altogether. 480. Is it not a fact that if the air becomes sufficiently bad you can work away until you ultimately become unconscious ? —Yes. 481. Have you known cases of that kind ?—I have. 482. Have you known of a man being carried out of the face through being overpowered with bad air?—l have. 483. Would that be in mines that were considered to be well ventilated ? —Yes, supposed to be. 484. Mines that the Inspector passes ?—Yes ; but I would not say they were well ventilated. 485. But as well as it is possible to get them ?—No ; because, in my opinion, the mines in New Zealand are not well ventilated, and the Act is not carried out. 486. At all events, your experience has been that bad air has a bad effect on a man's health ? —Certainly. 487. How many men are there altogether working in the coal-mines in the Buller district— say at Denniston, Buller, and Mokihinui?—About one thousand. 488. How many are there working in the Grey coal-mines ?—That I could hardly tell you — about one hundred. 489. And at Reefton ?—About one hundred. 490. There are nearly two hundred at Blackball ? —I think that there are barely one hundred in the Brunner Mine now. 491. I mean all the men employed in the Blackball Mine ?—There would be over one hundred. 492. How many do you reckon there would be between the Grey Valley and Reefton ?—I think, about six hundred coal-miners. 493. Then, there would be about sixteen hundred in the two districts ? —Yes, all that. 494. Do you know of any reason why the truckers should not be employed on piecework, the same as the hewers? —Most of our truckers have always been employed on piecework. 495. So that if a witness came before this Committee and said that if the Bill were passed he would lose so much by his truckers and horse-drivers, that would not apply to your district ?—No, certainly not. 496. It might apply to the horse-drivers, but it would not apply to the truckers in your district ?—No. 497. What about the tippers at the bins? —Theirs is contract work with us. The boys are on day-wages. 498. Do you know anything about the rates for hewing coal in New South Wales? —No. 499. You have no idea how they compare with the rates paid on the West Coast ?—They are higher than here. Of course, at the New South Wales collieries they use the riddle.

I.—4a.

JOHN FOSTER.

500. They get paid on the screened coal ? —Yes ; that makes a difference. 501. To put it in another way, do you think the colliers about Newcastle earn as good wages as the colliers on the West Coast ?—I do not think so. 502. What do you think is the average wage earned by the miners at Denniston, taking a period of twelve months ?—At the last Arbitration Court case that we had the average was given as 12s. 9d. a day, 15s. 6Jd., and 17s. 2d. 503. That is, per day for the whole year round ?—Yes, the average for the whole year, at ten shifts and a quarter a fortnight. .504. Were the men working full time? —Ten shifts and a quarter a fortnight. 505. For the whole year round ? —Yes. 506. Were there two shifts working there ?—Yes ; but there are not just now. 507. Have there been two at any time? —Yes. They start again on Monday morning next. 508. Where do the men change—at the face ?—No. According to the law, men cannot stop in the face. The deputy goes round every shift, before the men knock off, and examines every face, and if there is anything defective it is reported to the deputy, who immediately goes out and notifies it to the miners going in, and puts the date on the board. Nobody can then go past the stopping-place till he allows them. 509. Where is the board ?—Sometimes it is a few chains in the mine, and sometimes at the mouth of the mine. 510. If the men are prevented from going to their places by the deputy, who loses that time? —The men. 511. Do the men on day-wages get paid if they are prevented in a similar way?—lf their places are not secure they have to go home, it does not matter who they are. 512. Would the truckers and drivers be sent home ? —lf the road was blocked up. 513. I mean, suppose the ventilation is bad, and the air not in a fit condition to work in?—lf they cannot do their work they are sent home. 514. And are their wages stopped for that time?—Certainly. 515. Is that a common occurrence in some of the mines on the West Coast ? —lt is. 516. Have you known of cases where the men have had to be withdrawn from the faces?— Yes. 517. And have had to stop working? —Yes. 518. Have you known of cases where the men have had to leave the mine altogether on account of bad air ?—Yes. 519. I mean all the men—not just a few ? —No. 520. At some of the faces the air may be bad, and at others it may be all right?—Yes. 521. Would this Bill becoming law mean any serious loss to the coal companies on the West Coast ?—I do not think so. I should say No to that. 522. You know the haulage system in all the mines on the Coast ? —Yes. 523. Do you think the haulage system in those mines is capable of keeping up the present output, though the men work half an hour a day less?—l might state, as regards the coal-mines ip the district I come from, what we are doing now to meet things under the old system with the haulage-rope. We are overlapping a shift — i.e., the company start one part of the men at half-past 7in the morning, and the other part at 8 o'clock. The shift overlaps. That means that the rope is going the full eight hours. As regards the Act that has been passed, the company work the men in just the same way. lam speaking of the rope-road men. Half of them go in at 7, and half at 8. You might think that the whole of the rope-road men would go in all at once. If they did, according to the Bill, the employers would have to pay some of them half an hour overtime; but the employers do not do that. They send one lot in at half-past 7 and the other at 8, and the consequence is they work only the eight hours. 524. Does the haulage system have to stop at Denniston when the shifts are going on and off?—No, because there is only one shift on in each mine. 525. But where there are two shifts? —No, it does not stop. 526. Does the haulage stop at Granity ?—I believe it does. 527. Is it a fact, or is it not, that by changing shifts outside instead of at the faces the management would gain time—l mean, the men would work longer than if the haulage had to be stopped for one shift to go in and another to go out ? For instance, one shift being out and the other meeting them outside, they could go in before the haulage started; whereas, if they changed at the face and the haulage had to be stopped till the relief shift came out, it would have to be stopped longer than would be the case if the men changed outside ? —The natural effect would be that the haulage would have to be stopped longer—that is, if they stopped it for the shift to go in and come out. 528. When the haulage was stopped one shift could be going in and another coming out?— Yes. 529. The shift that was on would have to stop at the face till the other got in, and then come out ?—That has never been done in my experience. 530. You have told us that the law would prevent it ? —Yes; if you look at the Coal-mines Act you will see that the miner has no control. It is in Rules 30 to 39, I think. 531. Is this what you refer to: " Miners and other workmen are expressly forbidden to proceed towards or into their working-places at the commencement of any shift until it shall have been intimated to them by the foreman that the travelling-roads and working-places have been examined and are apparently safe to enter."—Rule 31 ?—Yes ; the miner has no say. 532. The shift going off has no responsibility with regard to giving any information as to the state of the face to the shift going on?—None whatsoever. 533. .\re you allowed to take matches into the mine?—Yes, wherever you can use the naked light.

I.—4a.

Tjohn foster

534. But you must be given permission by the deputy before you can do it?—lt is never questioned. 535. But you have to get authority to use a naked light to start with?—They give you that. Of course, if you have not got that the deputy stops you. 536. What has been your experience of the effect of coal-mining on a miner's health ?—My experience has been that all miners are subject to asthma, and so forth. 537. Are they subject to rheumatics ?—Yes. 538. And sciatica and bronchitis?—Yes. 539. Pleurisy and pneumonia ?—All lung-complaints, I suppose. 540. The Chairman.] Are they more subject to them than other people ?—I believe so, yes. 541. Is it your opinion that, say, five hundred men working at Denniston are more subject to lung-complaints than five hundred people working outside in the same district?—Yes, certainly. 542. And Denniston is reputed to be a very healthy place?—Yes. 543. That is, for the general community ? —Yes. 544. Is it the general wish of those sixteen hundred men connected with coal-mines on the West Coast that the Bill should become law ? —lt is the general wish, and has been for the last eight years, since I have had anything to do with them. I have been a leader of the people down there for the last eight years, and it has been their wish that this provision should become law. 545. Do you recollect interviewing Mr. Cadman in connection with this matter ?—Yes ; I was one of a deputation. 546. You asked me to introduce a Bill of this kind? —Yes. 547. From your knowledge of the mining community down the West Coast, you say that they are anxious this Bill should be placed on the statute-book ?—I could go further than that. The books of the unions might be turned up in order to show the resolutions that have been passed. I might state now that, if it has come out in evidence that I myself and some one else are not advocating the passing of the Bill at the wish of the people, I am prepared to take a ballot of the miners down the Coast to-morrow. I do not believe in agitation myself, but if I can better the conditions of the people I wish to do so. 548. Mr. Herries.] At what date did the industrial agreement that you are working under come into operation?—On the 14th March, 1902. 549. After the Act of last session was passed ?—Exactly so. 550. Was nothing mentioned in the award about the hours to be worked ?—According to last session's Act, eight hours from bank to bank, exclusive of meal-times. 551. You mean the amending Act ?—Yes. That is in our award. 552. Then, you are working on the bank-to-bank principle at the present time ?—Yes, exclusive of meal-time. 553. I understood you to say before that the men were underground nine hours ?—Yes, so they are. 554. Surely that is a breach of the award ?—No. We came to an agreement that, in order to carry the measure out, we would work eight hours at the face, including meal-time, and we would walk in and out of the mine in our own time. 555. That seems to be an infringement of the award ?—No, not of the award; it might be against the law. 556. But the award says that you must work according to the Act ? —The matter was put before Judge Cooper. Some of our people thought that the thing could not be done, but he said that it could be done. 557. Does the award say that you are to work according to the Act?—Yes, according to the Eight Hours Bill— i.e., the Mining Act Amendment Act of last session. 558. You say you are actually nine hours underground ?—Yes, exactly so. 559. So you are not working according to the Act ?—No, because under the Act we would be in the mine only eight hours and a half. 560. What is the reason for your not working according to the Act?—ln some parts of our mine the men have only a short distance to go in order to get to the face; in other parts the distance is longer. It takes some ten minutes to get to their places, and others longer. An average was taken, and we came to the conclusion that by putting the miners at the face for the full eight hours, including crib-time, and walking in and out in their own time, we would average the whole thing right through, and would be working in accordance with the Act. 561. Mr. Colvin.] Then, you were making a mistake in doing that?—No. We did it with Judge Cooper's knowledge, and he said it was all right. I read the Act to mean that a miner shall be in the mine eight hours, exclusive of crib-time. That means eight hours and a half. As I said, we took an average and split the difference, and we thought we were basing the time on the same lines as provided in the Act, only it does not work exactly the same as the Act reads. 562. Mr. Herries.] As a matter of fact, you should be in the mine eight hours and a half, but you are in nine hours, though that is with your own consent ?—Yes; that is in all parts of the mine. 563. No —the average time? —I would not take that as the average. There are two parts of the mine where the men are nine hours. 564. The majority of them are in nine hours ? —Yes. 565. But you are quite satisfied with that?—According to the agreement, yes. 566. You did that of your own accord ?—Yes, by mutual agreement amongst ourselves. 567. What are the actual working-hours at the face ?—Seven and a half. 568. If this Bill of Mr. Guinness's were brought into force you would be seven hours at the face? —Yes, just about that. 569. And what would the time be from bank to bank ?—About eight hours from bank to bank.

GEORGE FLETCHER.]

I.—4a.

570. It must be eight and a half if you are now in nine hours in some cases, and you get half an hour knocked off?—lt is straight out " from bank to bank "in the Act. Nothing is said about half an hour. 571. You are now working half an hour a day more than you need do?—Not half an hour more than we need do. We are working half an hour less than we have been doing according to the way in which the Act is worded. But some parts of the mine take twice as long as other parts to get to, and the men at them are in pretty well nine hours. 572. But according to the Act the time was intended to be eight hours at the most—eight hours and a half with the crib-time ?—Yes. 573. Those working farthest away were intended to be in eight hours and a half ?—Exactly so. 574. But at your mine they are in half an hour extra ?— 575. The Chairman.] If getting to the face was considered work you would all work about the same time ?—Yes. 576. And if it was not you would not ?—No. 577. Mr. I understood that the men farthest away were allowed only eight hours ? —Yes ; that is the law—that all the men should be in the mine eight hours, exclusive of crib-time. 578. But some of the men are in nine hours?—Yes; and others eight hours and a half. 579. Supposing this proposed amendment of Mr. Guinness's comes into force, and crib-time is included in the eight hours, will you be willing to take eight hours and a half for some of the men ?—No, certainly not. Our agreement is one between ourselves. 580. Will that agreement go on ?—lt might. I would not like to say. 581. Mr. Colvin.] It would go on without your making any alteration on account of the halfhour ?—Yes, till the award ran out. I would not think of altering the agreement. 582. How long have you been president of the union ? —Eight years. 583. You know the mind of all the men on the Coast 'pretty well on this subject, from your being president and from your connection with the union ? —I do. 584. Do I understand that your union would like to see Parliament pass this Bill?—Certainly. 585. The union would like a maximum time of eight hours put on the statute-book, but would leave it to the Arbitration Court to fix a shorter time for men working in bad places ? —Yes. We want a simple eight hours from bank to bank Act, and other matters could be fixed by the Court. 586. It has been stated here that the sitting of the Arbitration Court causes ill-feeling and disturbance : what is your experience as to that ?—My experience is that the .Arbitration and Conciliation Act is one of the greatest benefits to the people of New Zealand that have ever been conferred on them by Parliament. 587. In your opinion, the Denniston Mine is a well-equipped one as far as the safety of the colliers is concerned ?—Yes. 588. But for the sake of the men's health the hours should be shortened?—They ought to be shortened. My reason for advocating this is, in the first place, that a miner has to walk perhaps a mile or a mile and a half—in some cases two miles—to the mouth of the tunnel. Then he has to carry his tools, and whatever he wants during the day, on his back for perhaps half a mile or three-quarters of a mile, and, in addition, has to carry them while walking in a crouching attitude. 589. Mr. J. Allen.] You are referring to one particular mine? —No; to many mines. We find that is just about as hard work as a man has to do—l mean walking in and out with his tools on his back in a crouching position. And every day that a man works in a mine he is getting so much further away. George Fletcher examined. (No. 13.) 590. The Chairman.] What is your name ?—George Fletcher. 591. Where do you live?—At Granity. 592. What is your occupation ?—Mining manager at the Millerton Mine, under the Westport Coal Company. 593. You do not hold a mine-manager's certificate, do you?—Yes; but I am not a certificated manager under the Act. lam the general manager down there. 594. Have you had any practical experience of coal-winning in a mine ? —I never took out any coal myself, but I have worked at timbering, doing offhand work, &c. I served my time to be a mining engineer in the Old Country. 595. Mr. J. Allen.] You are acquainted with the provisions of the Bill before us ?—Yes. 596. Do you know what the effect would be in your mine if the Bill were passed? —Yes; the effect would be to reduce our output by about one-fifteenth. 597. Will you explain how it would reduce your output?—We could not draw as much coal in seven hours as we can in seven hours and twenty-five minutes. 598. That is, the haulage machinery?—We could not run the coal down the inclines. We could not run the same quantity in seven hours as in seven hours and a half. 599. The Chairman.] If a miner gave you as much in seven hours as in seven hours and a half, could you take it awav from him ?—No, we could not. 600. Mr. J. Allen.] Why not?—We have only one road to bring out the coal. 601. Your haulage would not do it?—We could not do it. We have only one line of rails. 602. At busy times now you are taking as much as you could possibly take out ?•—Yes. 603. If you were called upon to take more you could not do it?—No. 604. Do you use coal-cutting machines at your mine ?—Yes. 605. Do you think that a miner with a coal-cutting machine could give you in seven hours what he is now giving you in seven hours and a half?—A man with a coal-cutting machine could give as much in seven hours, but we could not get it away. The trucks have to be filled and taken to the rope-road before the coal can be taken to the bins, B—l. 4a.

I.—4a.

[GEORGE FLETCHER.

606. .Are there any day-wages men in your mine?—Yes; the men are all paid by the day, excepting twenty-eight coal-hewers ; they are on piece. 607. If this Bill became law, supposing that you could haul the coal away, would you expect to get from the men in seven hours what they are now giving vou in seven hours and a half ?—No. 608. Could they do it?—The machine-men could get the coal, but the fillers and truckers could not get it away. 609. Is there anything else you would like to say about the Bill, as to its effect on your mine if it is passed?—The only way in which it would affect us would be to reduce our output. That would mean increasing the cost. 610. Mr. Herries.] How many tons do you put out per day at your mine? —Between 1,100 and 1,200 tons ; but bear in mind that that is in fifteen hours. We have a day shift and a night shift. 611. Supposing this Bill were carried, and each shift had half an hour less, how much less coal would you put out then ?—Nearly 100 tons —80 or 90 tons a day less. 612. Would it be possible to alter your haulage in any way so as to put out the same amount though the men worked half an hour less?—Not without very large expenditure. 613. What do you call " large expenditure " ?—£12,000 or £15,000. 614. You would have to put in another tunnel"? —We could not do it without driving another tunnel, and that would cost us £12,000 or £15,000. 615. It is not because you are short of tubs ?—Not at all. We have heavy grades to contend with. 616. The only way of coping with the difficulty would be to make a new tunnel?—Yes. 617. Mr. R. McKenzie.] You are working two shifts at Granity at present ? —Yes. 618. How many hours a day does each shift work?—Seven hours and fifty-five minutes, with half an hour for meal-time. The rope is running seven hours and twenty-five minutes. That is a reduction since the 7th March of thirty-five minutes. The Arbitration Court reduced the time by thirty-five minutes. 619. In reply to Mr. Allen, you said that your haulage was going at its full capacity. Instead of working it for fifteen hours as you do now, why not work it sixteen hours ?—We could not. 620. Why ?—Because the men and boys would not be at work. They have to be underground seven hours and fifty-five minutes only. 621. Could you not extend the time?—No; according to the award of the Court, we could not. 622. But this Bill would not prevent overtime?—The men would not work it. 623. But the law is not against their doing so?—The men would not work overtime. If they had to work overtime they would have to be paid extra. 624. Could you not put a third shift on ? —lt would not be desirable. A third could be put on, but it would not be practicable to do so. 625. Would it be possible ? —There is scarcely anything impossible, but it would not be practicable. 626. Have you ever had a third shift working at Granity?—Not since the mine has been open. 627. Have they ever had a third shift at Denniston ?—That I cannot answer. 628. I suppose the two mines are somewhat similar, but Granity would be easier to work than Denniston on account of the railway-trucks having to go up to Denniston ?—Yes; our tubs come downhill, and the railway-trucks have to go on to Denniston. 629. You are not aware whether they have ever worked the Denniston Mine with three shifts ?—I am aware that they have worked two shifts, and abandoned it; but they are going to work two again. 630. As far as you know, there is nothing to prevent a third shift being put on anywhere if the company are prepared to pay?—lt is not a desirable thing to have three shifts. 631. What has been your experience of the effect of coal-mining on the men's health, generally speaking? —I have been accustomed to work in well-ventilated collieries 632. I think you are in a well-ventilated colliery now ?—Yes, one of the best. I have not seen any harm done at any colliery I have been at, because the ventilation has been well attended to. I refer to the Old Country, where we had gas to contend with, and it was necessary that the ventilation should be good. I have been at two collieries in New South Wales; the ventilation was good at them ; but no mine is better ventilated than the Millerton. 633. At the very best of mines, like the Millerton, where the air is as good as it is possible to get it, do you think that with the dust there always is in a coal-mine, and the air becoming exhausted by the men breathing it, and explosives being used, the occupation of a miner is as healthy as that of a man working on the surface ? —Yes, I do. Our mine is as healthy as this room with the present company in it ; there is a constant supply of fresh air. The circulation is going on all the time, and the vitiated air is carried out. 634. Have you ever known a case of a man being exhausted by inhaling foul air ?—Not to my knowledge; I have heard of it, but I have never seen it. 635. Are you down the mine at all ? —Yes. 636. Have you ever known of cases when the men had to be stopped from working and withdrawn from the faces on account of bad air ? —Not at any mine that I have been connected with. 637. You have never known the men to be stopped from going into a mine for an hour or half an hour?—No, not at any colliery that I have been connected with. 638. Do you know whether such a thing has occurred at Granity or Denniston ?—I do not know of any having occurred at Denniston, and do not think it has occurred at Granity. I have not been in any other mines than Denniston and Granity in New Zealand.

GEORGE FLETCHER.]

1.-4A

639. Mr. Herries.] Are you working under an award of the Arbitration Court?—Yes. 640. How long has the award to run?—Till the 31st March, 1904. It has run only three months out of the two years. 641. What hours are the men working ?—They are seven hours and fifty-five minutes underground, including half an hour for meal-time. 642. You are working under the Act of last session? —Yes; and under the Arbitration Court award. 643. Supposing that this Bill of Mr. Guinness's were passed, would it not override the award of the Court ? —Yes ; it would affect us to the extent of half an hour a day—fully half an hour. 644. But if the miners said that they would not take advantage of the Bill, if it passed, until the award ran out, would your objection fall to the ground ?—Certainly not. 645. Mr. Guinness.] Have you worked in a coal-mine yourself for any number of years ?—I have been connected with coal-mines since I was ten years of age. 646. But have you worked at cutting coal ?—No. 647. What are the longest hours that you have been underground at a stretch? —Thirteen hours. 648. Is that going in and out, or continuously underground?—Continuously underground, thirteen hours. 649. Is that for any length of time, or just for an odd day or two ?—For two or three years. 650. Did you find that that affected your health at all ?—No, it did not affect my health. 651. You look remarka.bly healthy now?—Yes, I believe so. 652. You have not been working underground for many years, I suppose? —Always underground. 653. Making inspections, and so on? —I have gone my daily rounds for years, eight and nine hours a day. 654. Do you think a miner's occupation is a healthy or an unhealthy one ? —Where the ventilation is attended to it is a healthy occupation. It is as healthy as you can wish to have it. 655. You would not say that it is as healthy as working out in the fields in the open air?—No place is as healthy as the open country. 656. A miner working underground, getting coal on piecework, we will say, works as hard as he can in order to get as much as he can, does he not ?—Yes; that is the general rule. 657. If a miner has worked continuously for seven hours, do you think he is able to put in as much work between the seventh and the eighth hours as for any one of the preceding four or five hours ?—He is better able to do his work for the full week if he works eight hours and not seven. 658. Why ?—Because he does not rush himself, as he would in the shorter time, so as to get his money. If a man knows he has eight hours to do the work in he takes it easier. I might mention here that if the hours are reduced it would be inflicting a hardship on the aged men. It would be a hardship to men of, say, fifty-five years of age, because they would not be employed. You would employ robust and healthy young men, and the older men would be thrown adrift, though they are as good as young men if they have an hour or an hour and a half more time in which to do the work. 659. Where did you gain that experience?—ln the Old Country—under the sliding-scale. I have been sorry for men who have been turned away—men able to make 3s. and 4s. a day ; but that brought down the average, and those men are not wanted, because the fact of their earning such small wages helps the stronger men to get an advance, and you have to guard against that. 660. You do not say that from your experience of the working of the mines in New Zealand, do you? —I say that from my experience of the Old Country; but it will apply to the mines in New Zealand, or anywhere else, if the hours are reduced too much—if they are reduced below eight a day. 661. Is half an hour a reasonable time for crib-time, or is it too long?—lt is any amount of time. The men have time to smoke as well. A man can swallow his bit of "tucker" in about ten minutes. 662. You have not heard any expression of opinion from the miners about this proposed amendment of the law?—l have not heard a word about it from the miners—in fact, I scarcely heard of it from anybody until I got the telegram to attend here. 663. Mr. Bennet.] There was no agitation in the mine that you manage for any change of hours ?—Not a bit. The men are as contented as possible, and are going on splendidly at our mine. 664. Have you any aged men working in the mine ?—Yes. We sometimes give those aged men a lighter job; but they have more time to do the work in and are not rushed. 665. That is an advantage to a person who is not as able as he was at one time ?—Yes, certainly. It is a disadvantage to men of years to reduce their hours, because then they have to go pell-mell. A young man can do it, but a man who is twenty years older cannot. 666. Mr. R. McKenzie.] The men ought to be pensioned off when they are fifty?—l can tell you, gentlemen, that getting coal is very easy in New Zealand compared with what it is in the Old Country, or even in New South Wales. What I have seen at Denniston and Granity is very easy. I might mention that the average earnings of our coal-hewers for the half-year was 16s. 3Jd. a day. Of course, there are only twenty-eight hewers. For the first three months of this year the hewing-rate was 2s. 3d. a ton, and for the latter three months 2s. 4d. 667. Mr. Herries.] Were you present in the Arbitration Court when the matters were argued before the award was made ?—Yes ; I conducted the Granity case. 668. Did the miners raise any question with regard to including the crib-time in the hours of labour?—They never said a word. I took a tracing of our workings, with the position shown where the men entered for the first mine and where they entered for the far-off one. For the men

I.—4a»

[ALLAN MCINTOSH.

to travel from this place to the far-off one it took three-quarters of an hour each way. I pointed out to the Judge and the assessors that if in wet weather we compelled our men and boys to travel over hills to the next adit to those workings the men would not go to work, and they would suffer and we would suffer. The Judge suggested a way out of the difficulty in order to make a compromise, and it was brought down for the men to start work at 8 o'clock and leave at five minutes to 4—that is, seven hours and fifty-five minutes underground, including the half-hour crib-time— and the men were satisfied with that. I was afraid that if I made them travel from this adit here [indicating it] I would be infringing the Coal-mines Act. But the Judge said, " You need not fret about that." I said that if I was not infringing the Act we could do that. The Judge put us all right on that point. 669. Mr. J. Allen.] If the Bill becomes law, and the men insist upon the eight hours from bank to bank, not including meal-time, what will you do : will they go down the other adit ?—The men have the option in fine weather to go to the lar-off adit, but if it is wet they lepwe here [indicating place]. Well, if the Bill comes into operation —and, mind you, our future field of coal is the far-off one —it will mean that we will be further reduced by half an hour a day in running coal, because to travel from one adit to the other puts on half an hour. 670. Mr. R. McKenzie.] In answer to Mr. Bennet, you said there was no agitation in your district in favour of this Bill ? —I have not heard a word. 671. If there was, do you think that you would be the first or the last man at Granity that the men would apply to to get a Bill like this passed ?—I do not know ; but one would think that in travelling through the mine one would hear of these little things. 672. But, supposing that for the last eight years the men had been attempting to get a measure like this passed for them, would you consider that an agitation or a desire to get it ?—I should think it was an agitation if they went to you for it. 673. Mr. J. Allen.] Does the Arbitration Court fix the hours of work, or alter them, or have anything to do with them ? —lt has fixed the hours of work and the wages. 674. Seven hours and fifty-five minutes ? —And it has power to alter the hours of labour if it likes. 675. Under another award ?—Yes, I think so.

Allan Mclntosh examined. (No. 9.) 676. The Chairman.] What is your name ?—Allan Mcintosh. 677. What is your occupation?—l am managing director of the Allandale Coal Company, 678. Mr. J. Allen.] Are you a practical coal-miner?—l am. 679. When did you start to be a practical coal-miner ?—I went into a coal-mine forty-five years ago. 680. Have you done all the work underground in your time?—Yes. 681. Hewing coal and all branches of coal-getting ?—Yes. 682. You have been an underground boss?—Yes. 683. And the manager of a coal-mine ?—I have. 684. You have passed from the lowest grade to being managing director ?—Yes. 685. You are thoroughly experienced in coal getting and mining?—l am thoroughly experienced in coal-getting. 686. How long were you the manager of a colliery?—l was manager of the Shag Point Colliery for ten years previous to going to the Allandale Mine. 687. You have been managing director of the Allandale Mine for some years ?—Yes ; fourteen or fifteen years. 688. You know the purport of this Bill now before the Committee ?—Yes. 689. What would it mean to your colliery?—We have seventy-two hands employed all told, men and boys. Taking an average, this half-hour would mean 6d. per head per day, because the average wage is practically Is. an hour. 690. How do you make that out ?—Taking men and boys, the average wage is Bs. a day. 691. What is the average wage of your coal-getters ?—los. a day wages, but those working by the ton would probably make 12s. or 13s. a day, 692. Would this Bill shorten the hours of labour?—Certainly. 693. What effect would it have on the cost of getting coal?—A considerable effect. It would cost us, I should say, about £6 per week extra. It would make a difference in the cost of £1 a day ; and there is the loss of output as well. 694. How do you explain the loss of output ? —We are producing 110 tons a day now in the eight hours. Well, then, I say there would be a loss of somewhere about 8 tons a day in our output. 695. Why should there be a loss?—The haulage is taxed to its utmost in the meantime. The horses down below cannot haul any more than those 110 tons, even if I have 120 men down below. 696. In the busy time ? —Yes. They are taxed to their utmost during the eight hours with the 110 tons, and if the haulage-time is further reduced by half an hour there is that half-hour lost. 697. Could you put out the 110 tons a day working half an hour less?—No, it is impossible. 698. It has been given in evidence that the miners in a mine could, if the hours of labour were shortened by half an hour, produce as much coal to the proprietor as they do now : do you believe that? —No, Ido not. One man out of ten could do it perhaps, but all could not. You might get a thoroughly strong practical miner who has got the real system of producing coal, and all that, who by working seven hours could produce as much coal as any one of nine other ordinary men could do in eight or nine hours each.

ALLAN MCINTOSH.]

I.—4a.

699. Would it be to the benefit of a miner to exert himself to a greater degree for six hours, or to work at not quite so energetic a speed and put out the same amount in six hours and a half ?— I think it would be to his benefit to work the longer time. 700. Do you speak as a practical collier yourself?—l do. 701. Now, I want your opinion as to the healthiness or otherwise of this occupation ?—Take myself as an example : I do not think I look so bad after forty-five years' experience. 702. What is your experience of other men ?—I have a number of men at the Allandale Mine ranging from fifty to seventy-two years of age. 703. Coal-getting? —Still coal-getting. 704. Have you a man of seventy-two coal-getting ?—He has just taken advantage of the oldage pension, about six weeks ago. 705. Was he working.up to then?—Yes. That same old gentleman has been in my employ for the last fifteen years. I have other men there who have been in my employ for twenty-five years, coal-mining. 706. What age are they now ?—One old gentleman has got five sons, who have been working for me in the mine for years. Three of them are now with me. 707. Are they good healthy men ? —Yes. 708. I suppose there is no doubt that in a wet mine, or where the ventilation is bad, it is hard on the men ?—That only occurs probably in one particular part of a field where your leading level is taking the whole of the water, but it does not affect the other parts of the workings. It is only the main level which is piercing the field and developing the mine. It may be showery overhead, but this very seldom occurs. It has not occurred at the Allandale Mine, nor did it occur during my management at Shag Point, except on one or two occasions. Now, under the Act, where that does occur the men work only six hours. 709. Do you know anything at all about the insurance-of miners' lives?—The rates of insurance for miners are the same as for those engngtsd in any other industry. 710. They are not specially higher ? —Not at all. 711. Are you quite sure in your own mind that, when the mine is busy, if you had to put out in half an hour shorter time what you are now putting out you could not do it ?—I could not possibly do it. 712. If you had to, what would you do ? —I would have to go in for a large expenditure. 713. How much larger? —About £300 or £400, to substitute engine-power for horses. 714. Where would the engine-power be ?—Either on the surface or at the extreme end of the incline. 715. Do you not think some other of your directors would object to its being put at the other end of the incline?—Yes. I am satisfied they would, for I have consulted them several times about it, and I know they would not allow it. 716. Why would they not ?—I know that it is dangerous putting steam-power down below— not as regards ventilation, but in the way of setting fire to the mine. 717. Was the Shag Point Mine so set on fire ?—No. It was set on fire by a furnace. 718. You would have to have a furnace down below?—Yes, to generate the steam. 719. Do you think the miners are working too long hours now ? Do you find that there is any grievance amongst them, so far as you know?—l have not heard a complaint from any of our men since the last award was made two years ago. 720. Are your men still working under the old award?—Yes. 721. Before the Act of 1901 came in ? —Yes; they have not touched upon the bank-to-bank matter. They have not even spoken about it. 722. Did they come to you with an order of reference some time ago ?—Yes. 723. Did you have a conference with them ?—Yes; they withdrew the order of reference, and I have heard nothing more since. 724. Is it your opinion that they prefer to work under the old conditions ? —They must be satisfied, or they would have gone on with the reference that was drawn up some time ago—about two months ago. 725. Do you think that a miner would prefer to have his hours of labour reduced, and owing to that reduction in the hours of labour earn less money, or would he prefer to go on as at present ?—He would certainly prefer to go on as at present, because a miner can practically use his own discretion as to how he works during those eight hours. 726. Is not a miner, like any other man, keen to make good wages ?—Yes. 727. Could he make as good.wages in the shorter hours?—No, he could not; and if it was possible for him to do so we could not take the stuff away from him in the shorter hours. 728. Now, with regard to your miners working on piecework, is there anything in the working of the mine to prevent their going out of it whenever they like ?—lf they approach the deputy, or the underground manager, or any one in charge and say, they would like to get out at 2 o'clock or 3, or crib-time, he would say, "By all means go." But we do not allow a man to come and go as he thinks proper without consulting the management. 729. But, with regard to the haulage underground, is there anything to prevent a man getting out ?—Nothing whatever. We have a back door. 730. Do you think you could put the increased cost of your coal-getting on to the public?— I could do it, but I know what the result would be. 731. What ?—They would go to a foreign market—they would take Newcastle coal. 732. Where does the Newcastle compete with you especially ?—ln Oaniaru and Dunedin. 733. Does it come by boat to Oamaru ?—Yes, and by boat to Dunedin. 734. Are you therefore limited with regard to an increase in the price to the public by the competition of the Newcastle coal ?—Very much, I assure you. We cannot possibly advance the price of coal. I consider the price is quite high enough.

I.—4a.

[ALLAN MCINTOSH.

735 Mr. Gilfedder.] How many shifts are you working in your mine ?—One only—eight hours in the twenty-four. 736. You are still working under an award of the Arbitration Court ?—The original award of two or three years ago. 737. When does it run out ? —lt ran out eighteen months ago, but we are still working under the old system. 738. You state that the men have taken no steps to alter the condition of things and come under the Act of 1901 ?-—They have taken no steps whatever. 739. What are the conditions ?—Eight hours at the face. 740. What is the actual time worked in your mine, then—exactly eight hours at the face ?— It is supposed to be eight hours at the face ; but you cannot tell what time a man works during the daytime—you do not know what time he takes for smoking and to have his crib. He is practically his own master when he gets to the face. 741. Mr. Herries.] That is, a pieceworker ?—A man on day-wages may be directed to do a certain piece of work —say, to put in a stone drive, or anything like that. Well, the deputy leaves him in the morning, and probably does not go near him again till crib-time. We do not know what that man is doing during that time. 742. Mr. Gilfedder.] What time would be lost, then, if an alteration of the law were made to make the time eight hours from bank to bank ?—The alteration, as far as I am concerned, would have a much greater effect in the Allandale Mine than in other collieries down there. One particular section of our field where a number of men work is 12 chains over the half-mile from daylight, and the shortest distance is exactly half a mile ; but take the average as half a mile for the distance from daylight to the various parts where the men are employed 743. It would take them at least half an hour? They would lose half an hour in travelling both ways, would they not ?—Yes, half an hour. It would take the men longer going in than coming out, because they have to get accustomed to the darkness. 744. Eight hours from bank to bank would mean seven hours and a half at the face, then ?— Yes, in our colliery ; and then if half an hour is taken for crib, that reduces the time at the face to seven hours. 745. Are the men working full time ? —Yes ; I may say that we have been practically regularly employed every day for the last twelve months. 746. You contend that it is impossible for the average miner to do as much in seven hours and a half as he could do in eight, or as much in seven as in seven and a half ?—What I said was that you may get one man who is a practical coal-miner, is physically strong, and has got the real system of producing coal —you might get one such man out of ten who could do that. 747. Could such a specially energetic, strong man do as much in seven hours as in seven and a half'? —No. 748. The contention is that after about six hours' work has been put in a miner gets tired, and if he knew beforehand that he had only, say, seven hours to work he would do as much work and turn out as much coal in that seven hours as he does in seven and a half ?—He could not keep it up. It is impossible. 749. You consider that the reduced hours of work would mean a reduction in the wages?— Yes, for the wages-men. 750. Of 6d. per day ?—Yes. The wages-men are paid Is. 3d. an hour. 751. But you took an average of Is. an hour? —Yes, for men and boys. 752. A reduction of the hours would necessitate either the raising of the price of coal to the consumer or a reduction of wages?—That is what it would mean. 753. And you cannot, as you state, raise the price to the consumer on account of competition from outside? —Newcastle coal would come into the market. 754. Very little Newcastle comes to New Zealand ?—lt is to be hoped that we can keep it out. 755. The Chairman.] What did you say were the actual hours of work at the face ?—They are supposed to be eight at the face. 756. Take the place to which you referred that is half a mile and 12 chains from daylight: how long does it take the men working at that place to go from the surface to the face ?—I could not do it on the surface in a quarter of an hour. 757. What time would it take underground ? —lt would take longer. You have not got your eyesight when you go away from daylight; but you could come out from that place at as rapid a rate as you could walk on the surface. 758. Then, the travelling-time would take more than half an hour both ways ?—Yes. 759. Three-quarters of an hour ? —No, I do not think so. 760. How much time would it take both ways ?—I believe it would take three-quarters of an hour. 761. Do you include the crib-time in the eight hours at the face ? —No. 762. Where do the men have their crib?—At the face—at a particular section of the thoroughfare. 763. How long do they take for their crib ?—Half an hour. 764. Is the time at the face eight hours and a half, including the time taken for crib, or is it seven hours and a half and half an hour for crib ?—I may say that the time is eight hours and a half from bank to bank—from 8 o'clock till half-past 4; seven hours and a half at the face is the actual coal-cutting time. 765. Mr. Herries.] Are you working under an award of the Arbitration Court?—The award has expired, but we are working under the same conditions. -766. When was the award made ?—Two years and a halt ago,

ALLAN MCINTOSH.]

I.—4a.

767. Were the hours of working fixed ?—Yes. 768. Was anything said in the Arbitration Court award as to how the hours should be counted—whether from bank to bank or from face to face ?—Yes. ; 769. What ?—The award distinctly says eight hours at the face. The men walk in and out in their own time. 4.u a 77 ?; """L^ 8 Act C , ame into force ' would vou abide b y the award of the Arbitration Court or bv the Act ?—lf the employees wished to continue under the awards of the Court—which thev do now—l would be perfectly satisfied. They seem to be satisfied—thev must be satisfied or they would have hied a new reference, and taken the matter into Court again. 771. The Act of last session has not been adopted?—No, not afall. a* 7 ?° y ° U think , this of bank to bank or face to face would be better settled by an u \°L a rhamen t' or do y°u think the Arbitration Court is best capable of settling it '—I consider Parliament ratl ° n " F ° Per PlaC6 t0 g ° *° With * ny § rievance ' under the present Act of „ 1 77 f T ou ? re aware that eo al-mines differ very much in different parts of the colonv ?— Certainly they do, to a great extent. J ' 774. Do you think it would be fair to pass an Act that would apply to all coal-mines, with reference to the number of hours worked ?—lt would not be at all suitable 775. You think it would be better for the Arbitration Court to settle the matter'—Yes Every colliery could be represented, the owners could state their grievances, and the Court would be able to deal with them. 776 . Mr. B. McKenzie] In answer to Mr. Gilfedder, I think you said that the miners had several smoke-ho s ?—Yes, there is no restriction with regard to that. _ 777. Is it customary in the Allandale Mine for the miners to smoke'—Yes esoeciallv cigarettes. . ' r^w-y 778. Is the Allandale Mine subject to black damp at all ?—Oh, no. lIW £• , white dam P ? —No- I am not aware of white damp existing in New Zealand 780. Did you get special permission from the Inspector of Mines to allow smoking in vour mine I—l1 —I am not aware that there is any restriction without the permission. 781. I suppose that you know the coal-mines regulations fairly well ? Yes 782. Unless you have the special permission of the Inspector of Mines have you any right to allow your men to take lucifers into the. mine or strike a light there ?—lf the question cropped up we could certainly apply for the permission, which would be granted right away, because there is nothing to prevent it. 783. As a matter of fact, if your are allowing your men to smoke in the mine, you are acting contrary to the Mining Regulations ?—I could not answer that. 784. You said that you only worked one shift in your mine? Yes. 785. Did you ever work two shifts ?—No ;it would not be profitable at all •i.u 7B6^? ld y° U T r USe a saf ety-lamp in any of the other mines that you have been connected with m Otago «? order to see whether the mine was safe or not ?-Mv experience has been confined to Green Island, Shag Point, and the Allandale Colliery during the time I have been in New Zealand. 787. Have you ever had occasion to use safety-lamps in any of those mines '—I have used a lamp occasionally to see if gas exists there, but such is not the case. You asked if there was black damp. It does occur m our collieries, and wherever it exists there is no explosive damp • 788. Does your underground manager or deputy examine the mine before the men start'Yes ; the deputy goes round to all the working-parts. He meets the men at a certain stage before they go near the working-faces and tells each man what he has got to do. 789. Does he report to the men on the surface or in the mine ?—At the first station 790. What do you call the first station ?-The first from daylight, where the men accumulate lhe deputy meets them there. 791. That is in the mine ?—Yes. 792. Your custom now is to -work eight hours and a half ?—That is the custom 793. Do you allow that time—when the men are kept at the station while the deputv is examining the mine—out of the eight hours ?-The men are not kept at the station. The deputv is there meeting them as they arrive. They have only to pass by. 794. That is in your case ?—Yes. 795. Supposing he had to keep them there for an hour or two?—They are not kept a Second.. 796. But say in other cases ?—You are talking of where there are explosives in the mines 797 In answer to Mr. Herries, you said that you considered the Arbitration Court should decide the working-hours in each particular case ?—Yes. u L 9 u Suppose the Arbitration Court were abolished altogether, who should decide then'-It should be left between the employer and the employee. . 799. Which would you prefer, to work under the awards of the Arbitration Court as you are doing now, or to work in the way in which you did before the Arbitration Act was passed '—I am perfectly satisfied with the existing awards as they stand now. 800. Mr. Guinness.] Is your mine worked by a shaft or a tunnel ?—By an incline 801. What is the length of that incline?—l,2ooft. J . 802 ' What do you think is a fair average time for miners working in a coal-mine to take for their meal-time ?—Half an hour is a reasonable time. 803. The miners at your mine, I believe, have time for what they call " smoke-ho " ■ is that so?—That is so. ' *" 804. At what times do the men knock off for smoking ?—Whenever they think proper.

I.—4a.

[ALLAN MCINTOSH.

805. Is there no definite time?—No definite time—no specified hour. 806. What is the usual time that they take for " smoke-ho " in the morning ?—I am not aware. 807. How do you know that they do take any time ?—I meet the men smoking in the colliery frequently. 808. Do they smoke while at work, or do they knock off to smoke?—l am not in their presence sitting alongside of them when they are working, and cannot tell you whether they smoke at their work or whether they sit down to smoke. 809. You are not the mine-manager now, and do not know what the methods of working are in the mine ?—I think I should do so. 810. You are not in the mine ?—I am not the manager of the mine. 811. You are not in the mine, or working in the mine, or inspecting the workings ? —I go through the colliery two or three times a week for my own satisfaction. 812. While you have been going through the colliery you have not seen men knocked off from their work smoking?—Yes, they have done so when I have gone round—they have knocked off work, filled their pipes, and smoked with me and had a yarn. 813. What time would be lost in doing this ?—That would depend wholly on the time I would entertain them. 814. I want to know what time per day you are in the habit of entertaining the men at smoking ?—lf the conversation was interesting I might remain five or ten minutes ; probably at another place I would not be two minutes. 815. The time occupied for this entertainment of smoking and interesting conversation between you and the miners would be from five to ten minutes sometimes and as low as two minutes at others? —Yes; and sometimes a quarter of an hour. The miners are not particular, nor are the employers. We are very sociable in that way. 816. You have told the Committee, I understand, that half an hour is lost each day in going to and coming from the face? —Yes; a full half-hour, I consider —perhaps a little more. 817. If the half-hour for meal-time were to count in the time underground, you think the effect would be to increase the cost of the coal and reduce the output ?—lt would increase the cost of the coal, as far as the Allandale Coal-mine is concerned, and would reduce the output considerably ; and that is a thing we cannot overtake. If a day is lost at Allandale through anything unforeseen taking place, it cannot be overtaken. The haulage is at its limit. 818. The Chairman.] Did you not say that if you spent £300 or £400 the haulage could be increased ? —Yes ; but that would not look at it. 819. Then your answer was wrong when you said that if you expended that sum the coal could be taken away as fast as the men could produce it ?—I put the amount down as far too little. 820. Mr. Guinness.] Do you think that a miner should work longer than eight hours underground ? —I consider that whoever brought in the bank-to-bank business did not go far enough. I think they ought to have made it from home to home. Considering that some miners have seven miles and a half to walk, if I had to pay for that I would get no work from them at all—they would be walking all the time. 821. You think that you ought to be paid for walking from your private home to your office ? —I might think it, but I am wondering where the money is to come from. 822. Do you think that you ought to be paid for walking from your private home to your office ? —No, I do not think it is right. 823. You do not think it is right for a miner to be paid for walking from his private house to his place of work ? —No, I do not. 824. Then, you think a miner does not commence his work till he actually commences cutting coal at the face ?—That is my opinion. 825. Do you think that the law should make any difference in the cases of a miner who has to go underground only 3or 4 chains to the face, and one who has to go 70 or 80 chains ? Do you think the law should be made to make any difference?—l think the law should not be made to make a difference. 826. Do you think that a miner should be underground for a longer period than eight hours? —Yes ;to perform his work properly, if he has a long distance to travel, he must be underground more than eight hours. 827. You think he should ?—I do. 828. Do you disagree with the statement which miners make that being underground for a longer period than eight hours in a day is injurious to their health ?—I consider that being eight hours underground is no hardship to any man. 829. I am asking you an abstract question, and not referring to your own particular mine. Do you think it tends to injure the health of a miner if he is underground for more than eight hours ?—No, it does not tend to injure his health. 830. Does it if he is underground for nine hours ? —lt does not. 831. Ten hours ? — A man could take his blankets down the mine, as far as some collieries are concerned, and sleep there. 832. Hon. Mr. McGowan.] Are your men working on piecework or day-work?—A number are on piecework and a number are on day-work. Unfortunately, under the Arbitration Court award, I cannot put them all on piecework. For instance, if a miner comes to a deficient place—and the Court has laid down what are to be considered deficient places—he says, " I cannot make a wage here. I want 10s. a day, and for that I will give you a fair day's work." I take him on at that. Where there is anything over 4ft. 6in. of clean coal—the limit fixed by the Court—that can be worked by piecework; but where there is not 4 ft. 6in. of clean coal the man must be put on daywages.

SMITH LAUGHTON PATRICK FREE.]

I.—4a.

833. Have you an engine at your mine?—Yes. 834. Supposing you had an accident to your machinery, or to the engine, or anything else, and the men were delayed for an hour or two hours by the accident, would you pay them a full day's wages ?—Oh yes, because they could continue on. 835. Take the case of a day-wages man : Suppose an accident took place in the morning and was of such a nature that you could not send the man down for that day—that he might go home if he liked—would you pay him for that day ?—No. , .® 3 , 6 ' } understand that if a wages-man is delayed for a few hours he is paid a full day's wages, and if he is delayed for a whole day he is not paid. But if a man working on piece is delayed and not able to get at his work, is that his loss ?—Yes, he cannot make that up. 837. He loses that for all time?—Yes. I might mention that, as a rule, the colliers are not regularly employed themselves, and that reduces the working-time from six days a week to probably four. 838. Could you tell me approximately the average number of days per week that are worked by a pieceworker in a coal-mine, and also by a wages-man ?—As I remarked before, we have been regularly employed for the last twelve months ; but it is provided in the award that during the six winter months the men are to have a half-holiday on each second Saturday—the day after they are paid. In the summer months—the slack time—the men have a full holiday after they are paid. 839. According to that, at a mine working full time for the whole year, each man would work five days and three-quarters per week on an average : is that correct ?—No. 840. It would not be so much ?—No. 841. Would it be five days per week on an average for the year ?—There are 19* holidays during the year under the Arbitration Court award. 842. How much other time would a miner lose apart -from the holidays ?—There are eight compulsory holidays in the year, according to the Act, and there are other incidental holidays, such as Coronation Day. 843. How many holidays a year would those amount to in addition to the compulsory ones : I merely want to know the approximate number ?—There would be somewhere about eight, any way. b J 844. On how many other days would the men be off work through accident to the machinery, or any other such cause?—Such a thing as that has not occurred with me as far as lam aware. I cannot take my memory back to the time when there has been a stoppage through the machinery giving way. 845. Then, there would be thirty-six days each year for which the men would get no pay ? Yes ; and the same thing would apply to the employers, for we get no pay either. 846. What I want to get at is the number of days the men are off work during the year, because statements are often made to the effect that miners receive very high wages ; but when you work it out you find that a miner's pay is not such a great amount ?—I may say 'that I am losing my trade ; there are 19-J holidays under the award, and my trade is going away. I am not able to supply the orders. My haulage-power is taxed to its limit, and as soon as a holiday comes a day's production is lost. That is a loss to me. 847. The Chairman.] Did you not say you could increase that haulage-power by putting in steam instead of using horses?—Yes, I could increase it, and 848. How much would it cost to put that steam-power in ? You said it would cost £300 or £400, but you afterwards corrected that ?—My estimate here, in the first place, was all wrong. To avoid having generating-power down below, I would have to put a boiler on the surface, and send the steam down the shaft to an engine working below. The boiler alone would cost £500 849. What would the total cost be ?—About £800. 850. If you did that you would be able to haul as much as you liked ?—lf I did that I would increase the output considerably. 851. In Judge Martin's award what were the actual hours of working set down as ? Eight hours' actual work at the face. 852. Mr. Bennet.] Inclusive or exclusive of crib-time ?—Crib-time is not mentioned at all in the award. 853. Mr. Guinness.] The terms of the award are given in this book which I have here, and the hours are stated as eight, exclusive of meal-time [book handed to witness] ?—Yes, that is so ; I made a mistake. 854. Hon. Mr. McGowan.] Are you aware of any mine at which they are working absolutely according to the award—viz., eight hours' actual working-time ?—We are not actually standing there, and do not know.

Friday, Ist August, 1902. Smith Laughton Patrick Free examined. (No. 14.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your name ?—Smith Laughton Patrick Free. 2. Where do you live ?—At Reefton. 3. What is your occupation?—My occupation primarily is that of a solicitor, but lam also the representative of several mining companies. I am an attorney for the Consolidated Goldfields of New Zealand, the Progress Mines of New Zealand, the Welcome Gold-mining Company, and the Humphrey Hydraulic Sluicing Company. I am also a director of the Big River Gold-mining Company and the Kirwan's Reward Gold-mining Company; and a shareholder in other mining companies. lam also the representative in New Zealand—the sole attorney—for David Ziman, who is largely interested in mining. 9—l. 4a.

[SMITH LAUGHTON PATRICK FRTCE.

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4. Have you to do mostly with coal or gold mining ?—Mostly gold. We only mine coal for the use of our mines. 5. Have you read the two amending Bills ?—I have. I may say that I know nothing of coalmining—only gold-mining. _ . . 6. Mr. Guinness.] Would the provisions of the amending Bill that I have brought in, in your opinion, act injuriously in any way to the mining industry ?—I think they would. 7 Then, will you state the reason why you have come to that conclusion ?—The coming into force of the Bill would be bound to increase the cost of the product; it would be equivalent to an increase of wages. . . , 8 How are the miners working at Reefton paid—by the day, or are they on piecework t— They are paid by the shift- so-much per shift. Whether the day is long or short, they get the same pay. . 9. Are the wages regulated by a private agreement between the miners and the proprietors, or by an award of the Arbitration Court ?—An Arbitration Court award was made in 1899, but on its expiry practically the same terms were fixed by an industrial agreement, under which the men are now working. It was entered into in January last, and provides for both hours of labour and rates " 10. Would the passing of this Bill, in your opinion, reduce the actual hours of labour?—lt 11. To what extent per day or shift ?—That is pretty hard to say, because each mine is worked under different conditions. It would decrease the actual working-time by from a quarter of an hour to an hour per shift, according to the mine. 12. What length of time does it take a miner to go from the bank to his work, and what mine are you giving as an illustration?—The Golden Fleece. The present means of access to the mine are by a low-level tunnel, which extends something over a mile into the hill. At a distance of over a mile in the hill there is a shaft which both rises and falls—i.e., it extends into the hill some 600 ft. or 800 ft., and is now down below the level of the low-level tunnel some 300 ft. The men, after getting into the shaft, have to be either hoisted or lowered to their working-places. No man can get to his working-place in less than half an hour. In some cases the time taken is probably more, and it takes the same time to return. At the present time the men walk along the tunnel, and are either hoisted or lowered to their faces. 13. Mr. W. Fraser.] Are the men working under the Act of 1901, which contains the bank-to-bank provision ?—I may say that the Act of 1901 has been practically ignored by consent of both the miners and the other workmen, because if it were observed it would work most harshly against the miners, for the majority of them would then have to work longer hours than they do under existing circumstances. In some cases, as in that of the Golden Fleece, the probabilities are that the men would work some little time less. The working-hours have not varied in the mines for some years—l mean per shift. They have been fixed at eight hours at the face, less crib-time. That has been the practice for some years past in the Reefton mines, and it has not been varied, ■because, if the men worked eight hours at the face exclusive of crib-time, at some mines they would take longer than at others. The hours worked under the agreement are : The night shift goes on at 1 a.m. on Monday morning and goes off at B—that is to say, they work a seven-hours shift, out of which they get half an hour for crib. For the remainder of the week they go on at midnight and go off at 8; that, deducting crib-time, is seven hours and a half. The day shift goes on°at 8 o'clock, and works an eight-hour shift till Saturday. Then they go on at 8 and knock off at 2—six hours, less crib-time. The afternoon shift goes on at 2 and off at 8, less half an hour for crib. That is to say, all the shifts work eight hours, excepting the Monday morning and Saturday afternoon ones. With regard to the Golden Fleece Mine, if this legislation became law the probable result would be that we would extend our shaft a little more —to the surface —and the men, instead of having to walk a mile or so in the tunnel, would have to walk a mile or so by the creek, climb a good altitude, and be lowered down to their work. To enable us to get a reasonable shift's work out of our men we would have to say to them, "You cannot go in by the tunnel; you must walk on the surface to the mouth of the shaft." It would be a hardship to the men, and would reduce our time at the Golden Fleece. We now get seven hours and a half from the men; that means practically seven hours, because they are relieved at the bottom of the shaft. We should have to reduce the time practically to six hours and a half at the outside. We should get for eight hours' pay only five or five and a half hours' work from the Saturday shifts. I will now take the case of the Keep-it-Dark Mine, of which lam a shareholder. There they are working with a shaft that goes straight from the surface, and it takes them only a few minutes to lower and raise the men, of whom there are only some twenty-five or thirty underground ; so that it would not take the' men nearly so long to" get to their work. The Keep-it-Dark is a mine that has been worked for from twenty-five to thirty years. They have now put in the cyanide process, and are able to work low-grade ore which previously it did not pay to work; so that, when the men go to work in the old levels, they will take a longer time to get to the work than they take at present. The figures for the past six months show how low grade the ore is and how difficult it is to make a profit in mining low-grade ore. For the past six months they have won six thousand seven hundred pounds' worth, but it has cost them £6,200 to get that. If you slightly increase their working-cost their margin of profit disappears. 14. Mr. Guinness.] Then, your objection to the measure is founded entirely on the assumption that if it were carried it would have the effect of increasing the cost of production?—Yes, increasing the cost of production. Then, there is this objection : it would make it a little more difficult to keep your mines as they should be kept. Where the men relieve one another, as they do now, at the brace every man going on shift sees the man who has left his place, and if there is anything which one shift should communicate to another the men have the opportunity.

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SMITH LAUGHTON PATRICK FREE.]

15. Do you not know that it is required under the regulations that if there is anything dangerous in the face it is the duty of the miner who is leaving to communicate the fact to the shift-boss ?—That is so. But take"the case of a miner at the Progress Mine, where there are over a hundred employed : The men are distributed through several levels, and a man is not going to hunt through the" mine for the shift-boss in order to tell him that, say, timber is required at a certain place. He would rather go off, and leave the next man to find it out for himself. Of course, he should communicate with the shift-boss, but this is very often not done. It all depends where the shift-boss is. In the majority of cases he would see the men coming off, but in some cases he would not, and consequently would not be able to tell the on-coming shift. 16. The Chairman.] .4nd he would not warn those going on? —If he knew that there was anything wrong he would warn them, but he might not know. In other cases he would not be there to warn them. 17. You know that it is his duty to warn them ?—Certainly, if he knows of any risk. He does go through the mine. He visits every working-face during each shift. 18. Mr. Guinness.] Once, or more frequently ? —lt all depends. Always once, generally twice. But he may have some difficulty in some part of the mine which may engage his attention for the principal part of the shift. 19. Is not the industrial agreement or the award of the Arbitration Court as to the rate of wages founded upon the number of hours that the miners work at the face ? —I should say that every consideration was given to that. 20. Is not that the principal consideration upon which the rate of wages is fixed?—Undoubtedly. 21. Then, would not the passing of this proposed legislation have a tendency to reduce the miners' wages, and not increase the cost of output to the proprietors ? —At the present time we are working under an agreement which has eighteen months to run. 22. lam not dealing with that. Would not the passing of this proposed legislation have a tendency in the direction I indicate? —It all depends on how the Arbitration Court looks at the matter. 23. If the Committee had a proviso similar to that in the Act of 1901—to the effect that the Bill, if passed, should not affect any industrial agreement or award—put in the Bill, would that satisfy you on that point? —No, it would not. 24. Give us your reason why ? —The Arbitration Court always hesitates very much to reduce wages. 25. Then, you object to this proposed legislation because of your fear of the Arbitration Court doing its duty ?—I think this is essentially a matter that should be left entirely to the Arbitration Court. It seems to me to be preposterous that the Arbitration Court should be deemed capable of settling one part of a dispute and not another. 26. It is not proposed to tie the hands of the Arbitration Court. It is proposed to enact that beyond a.certain time a miner shall not be underground. We propose to fix a maximum time, for the benefit of the miners' health?-—You would tie the Court on the one hand, and not on the other. 27. Mr. J. Allen.] What is the present position of the gold-mining industry, as far as your own mines are concerned? —It can best be expressed in these words: if we could get back the money that we have put into the mines, without the interest at all, we should be most happy to take it. 28. It is not as profitable an industry, then, as you would like it to be ?—lt is not. 29. Are your investors satisfied with the returns they receive ? —That is hard to answer in one word. We are paying a fair rate of interest, but we are not getting back our capital; and the mines are becoming worked out. We are getting a fair return for our money without seeing any prospect of getting the capital back. You must have a sinking fuud, because your mine gets worked out in a certain number of years in any case, and during that period you must get your capital back, with interest, or your investment is unprofitable. From that point of view, the Reefton mines are not a profitable investment. I will give as an illustration the case of the Golden Fleece Mine. It cost us £12,950 to purchase, and we expended £59,777 in developing it before it became productive. We have now worked out six levels, and partially worked out two others. The profit has been some £12,000. 30. Mr. Herries.] Net or gross?—Net profit, after paying actual working-expenses, but without charging anything for management or London office expenses at all. 31. Mr. J. Allen.] The office expenses have to come out of the £12,000 ?—Yes. We started crushing in November, 1900, and had been working some three or four years before that in developing : £12,826 is the actual profit from the crushing. As I said, we have worked out six levels, and partially worked out two others; consequently, on that basis, -we shall have to work out between thirty and forty levels before we get our money back, and ten, I think, is the greatest number that we have so far in any mine in the Reefton district. The result of this proposed legislation would be to practically close down that mine. I will give you figures in support of that statement. When we started to open up the ore yielded us a profit for the five months after the first two of over £1,000 a month—from £1,000 to £2,000. Since then it has fallen, and I will give you the returns since last July of the net profit per month. In July, 1901, it was £108; August, £535 • September, £384 ; October, £320 ; November, £368 ; December, £208 ; January, 1902, £118; February, £613 ; March, £227 ; April, £398; May, £340; and June, £334. The July figures were not out when I left Reefton. 32. You have not taken off those earnings the cost of your London office and Reefton office, and other outside expenses ? —No.

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[SMITH LAUGHTON PATRICK FREE.

33. What do you reckon those would amount to in that time ?—I would not like to estimate them, for fear of giving you an erroneous impression. We are working many properties, and the expenses have to be divided over them, and to exactly apportion the expenses would be difficult. But the expenses referred to by Mr. Allen would not be less than £500 or £600 for the Golden Fleece Mine. We have a board of directors in London, and the London office expenses for all the mines are over £2,000 a year. 34. How would the proposed legislation affect the mines you represent ? —lt would affect us hardly— i.e., it would increase the cost of production in every instance. I will take the Progress Mine as an instance. It is the best mine in our field controlled by our company. In that mine there are very large bodies of ore of varying grades, and at the present time we treat any ore that goes above sdwt. We have much better-grade ore there, and we mine our ore so as to produce an average grade of about 7 dwt.; but we can make a small margin of profit on the 5 dwt. ore. Consequently, if our expenses are increased it will not pay us to treat some of the poor ore which it just pays us to treat now, and the mine will last so much less time. 35. The miners would be adversely affected also ? —Yes. I would like to point out how the proposed legislation would operate hardly in the Progress Mine. We have a double-compartment shaft, and we work double cages, which are constructed to carry eight men, but the Mining Inspector allows us to carry six only. We are working three shifts a day ; there is something over a hundred men in each shift, and it takes us nearly half an hour to lower a shift. At the present time the practice is to lower a cageful to the bottom of the shaft, and to bring up a cageful of men going off shift on the return of the cage. If this Bill became law we should have to take all the men going off shift out of the mine before 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and we could not start lowering the others till after 4 o'clock; consequently we could not have the cage full on its downward trip and its upward one also, as we do at present. It would take us double the time it takes us now to lower and raise the men. As a rule, at the present time we start with the lowest level, sending down a crew of men to relieve the ones working there, and they relieve at the lowest chamber. We should take double the time for changing shift that we do now. We are working three shifts at the Progress Mine, and the Bill would mean a loss of an hour and a half in the twenty-four hours. Changing shift would occupy an hour each time instead of half an hour. There would be an hour and a half a day when there would be nothing coming out of the mine, and the surface-men would have nothing to do in that time. 36. Is this proposed legislation desired by your miners, as far as you know ?—No, I do not think it is, and can give very good reasons to show why it is not. In 1899 some disputes arose between the men and the company. The miners made a demand for certain concessions, and, these not being made, they formulated their demands, and referred them to the Conciliation Board. The demands made are these shown in this document, which is a copy—a certified copy—of the application for reference of the dispute to the Board, signed by the president of the miners' union on the 2nd October, 1899. Clause 39 of the demands is as follows : " The night shift on Sunday night to go on at 2 a.m. on Monday morning, and cease work on Saturday at 8 a.m. ; the day shift to go on at 8 a.m. on Monday, and cease work at 2 p.m. on Saturday; the afternoon shift to go on at 2 p.m. on Saturday, and cease work at 8 p.m. ; and no shift to work more than eight hours on any one shift." [Document handed in.] That dispute came before the Arbitration Court, and they adopted the miners' suggestions in every particular excepting one. The Sunday-night shift had previously gone on at 12 o'clock (midnight). The men asked that they should not go on till 2 o'clock, but the Judge decided that they should start at 1. The reference was filed in October, 1899, and came before the Court in January, 1900. When the award expired we made an agreement with the men for another two years on practically the same terms, the one or two minor alterations not affecting the hours of labour in any way. Paragraph Bof the agreement reads as follows : " The night shift following the Sunday shall go on at 1 a.m. on Monday morning, and shall cease work at 8 a.m. The day shift on Saturday shall go on at 8 a.m., and shall cease at 2 p.m. The afternoon shift on Saturday shall go on at 2 p.m., and shall cease work at 8 p.m." Paragraph 9 reads: " Except as mentioned in the last clause, the hours of work shall be eight hours at the face in each shift, in which eight hours the usual allowance shall be made for cribtime." I will hand this copy of the agreement in. [Document handed in.] I myself attended the conference between the mine-owners and the representatives of the miners' union, and at that time —in January last—no suggestion was made that the hours should be other than had always been worked in Reefton — i.e., actual hours at the face only to count. That agreement was adopted with the approval of the union and the mine-owners. 37. You know of no application or desire on the part of the miners to alter the hours of labour stated in the agreement ? —None whatever. 38. You never heard of any application from them ?—No. 39. Nor of any grievance in that respect ?—No. 40. Are your men, as far as you know, well satisfied with the existing condition of things ? —■ Perfectly satisfied. Of course, we know that if a man is working eight hours a day for 10s. and you offer him the same wage for working six hours he is only too delighted to take the lesser time. 41. That is really the aim of this Bill, or, at any rate, it aims in a similar direction ?—Somewhat similar. Of course, the miners do not disapprove of it. I merely say that that is the principle of it: a man has no objection to work less time for the same money. 42. You know the working of the Arbitration Act? —I do. 43. Has the Court power to fix the hours of labour?—lt has; and does fix them. It has done so. 44. Has it power to fix the wages ?—Yes. 45. In your opinion, is it necessary that the wages should be fixed in proportion to the hours of labour?—l certainly think that is one of the controlling influences.

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SMITH LAUGHTON PATRICK FREE.]

46. Which do you think is the best authority to deal with the question of hours of labour and wages—the Arbitration Court, or the Legislature by fixed statute law ?—I certainly think the Court, for these reasons : I suppose that no two mines have exactly the same working-conditions, and the Arbitration Court sits on the spot, where every one interested has an opportunity of stating his views. The Court has much better means of information than any statutory Committee could have, and is more likely to come to a fair decision. It is extremely hard to make one cast-iron rule for all mines from Auckland to the Bluff, because the conditions are so very dissimilar in different districts. For instance, I know that the Arbitration Court, which sat recently to hear the dispute between the Waihi miners and the companies in. the Thames and Coromandel districts, made a difference in the hours of labour. The Court decided that where certain conditions existed the hours should be so-much less—l mean in wet places. 47. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Not so-much less ? —Certainly not. It seems to me that the Court is the proper tribunal to deal with all questions affecting labour. If it is competent to deal with one phase of the question, why is it not competent to deal with another phase of the same question? 48. Mr. J. Allen.] Do the conditions under which a miner obtains his produce vary in the different mines that you know of?—I have explained that in different mines it takes the men a different length of time to get to their work. I believe that the Reefton mines are as well ventilated, and the men in them are working under as favourable conditions as it is possible for quartzminers to work under. We have no water. There is not a mine-pump on the whole of the Reefton goldfields, and the ventilation is excellent, so that the men work under the most favourable conditions possible. 49. Do those same favourable conditions prevail in all gold-mines?—No. I understand—l have no personal knowledge of the subject—that in other parts of the colony they have to have mine-pumps in nearly every mine, and the men are constantly working in the wet. 50. Take the case of two mines—one where there is water in the mine, and perhaps bad ventilation, so that the fumes from the blasting are inhaled, and another mine free from these conditions : Would it be fair to say that the hours of labour in the well-ventilated mine should be limited by what would be fair hours of labour in the badly ventilated wet mine ?—I think that no man should be asked to work as long under unsanitary conditions as where they are sanitary. A man should work a less time where the conditions are unsanitary than where favourable, and I think that the proper tribunal to decide whether a mine is sanitary or otherwise is the Arbitration Court, after hearing the evidence of those working there. 51. Then, it comes to this : that it is impossible by law to fix the hours of labour unless you know what the conditions of the various mines are?—Yes. 52. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Where do you change shifts now at your mine at Reefton ?—Practically at the foot of the shaft. 53. Not at the face ? —No. It frequently happens that towards the end of the shift the men fire a shot. 54. So that, although it is contended that it is absolutely necessary that the miners should change shifts at the face, there is nothing in that contention as far as Reefton is concerned ?—There is.- I may state that the practice at one time was to change at the face. 55. When ? —Some years ago. 56. Why was that practice abandoned ? —-I cannot say what the reason was, unless this : The tendency has been for years to shorten the hours of labour. At one time, when the men were working only one shift, they worked continuously for eight hours, less crib-time. 57. As far as the safety of your mine is concerned, there is no necessity for the men to change shifts at the face ?—Not exactly at the face. 58. I mean exactly at the face ? —lt is this way : Where the men change at the foot of the shaft the off-going shift and the on-going one meet there, and if there is anything to communicate they can do it there just as well as at the face. 59. Could they not explain anything just as well if they met at the top of the shaft ?—Yes. 60. So that, in your opinion, there is nothing in the contention that it is necessary for the men to change at the face ? —I say it is immaterial whether they change at the face, or a yard from the face, or 10 yards, or at the chamber at the foot of the shaft, or at the brace at the top ; but if the proposed legislation is passed the men will not do any one of those. 61. You say that the men meet in the chamber at the foot of the shaft ?—Yes. 62. The Chairman.] Where would they change if the Bill were passed ?—All the men would be out of the mine before the incoming shift could go in. We can bring up only six men at a time; as soon as they get on to the surface they get away 63. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Excuse me. When you bring up those six men going off shift, is there any reason why you could not send the six men going down by the cage on its return trip—l mean if the Bill becomes law ?—Take it in this way: Take a shift going on at mid*night: you have got to get those men out of the mine by 8 o'clock, and consequently must start to raise them at about half-past 7 in order to get them out by 8. 64. Say you take up six men : the rope starts at 8 o'clock, and you send six down to take their places. You take them like that till you get one shift up, and the relieving one down, the cage being loaded on each trip up and down. Is there anything to prevent that?—No, except this : that there would be a loss of time. At our mine, where we work three shifts, the men would have to be in the mine more than eight hours, or else there would be a lapse of time. 65. Is not there a lapse of time now ?—No. 66. You are not bound to send all your men down exactly at 8 o'clock, or bring them all up then ?—No, except under our industrial agreement; we are until that expires.

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SMITH LAUGHTON PATRICK FREE.

67. What would be the effect of this Bill being passed, compelling the men to change shifts at the surface ?—lt would mean this : There must be a lapse of time if you worked your shifts in so that they interleave d You could not have the men working twenty-four hours a day. 68. Will you put it in writing, so that I can see what you mean ? —Very well, I will. 69. Do you know where the miners change shifts at the Thames and on the Coromandel Peninsula ?— I know very little about those mines. 70. The capitalists at Reefton and the Coromandel Peninsula do not act in unison in regard to labour questions?—No; we act on our own initiative. 71. There is no connection between the management of the companies—the directorates?— No connection at all that I am aware of. 72. I think you said that this Bill was not specially required at Reefton ?—lt is not as far as I am aware. 73. Do you think that if it was required you would be aware of it?—l should think so. If a man whom I employed wanted anything he would ask me. 74. Do you think the president or the secretary of the miners' union would be likely to go to you to ask to get a measure like this placed on the statute-book ?—No ; but I think that if they thought the request was reasonable they would have asked the Court for it before now. 75. Do you not think they would have been more likely to have appealed to their member, Mr. Colvin ?—I do not see why they should. I may say that the relations between the men and ourselves for the last two or three years have been of the most cordial nature, and whenever any suggestions have been made by them that we could grant we have done so. 76. But do you not think that the men would be more likely to appeal to Mr. Colvin, whom they sent here, to get a measure like this passed than to you?—l thought Mr. Colvin was the representative of the whole community, and not particularly of the miners. 77. Suppose that the miners' union at Reefton asked me to try and get a measure like this passed, would you think they wanted it ?—When you are making a bargain of any sort you try to get the best terms possible. 78. You stated in evidence that you did not think this Bill was asked for by the Reefton miners. I asked you whether you thought the Reefton miners would be likely to go to you if they wanted a measure of this kind passed?—Yes; and I say that if they want a concession of this sort 79. It is not a concession ?—lt is a concession. 80. I did not say anything about it being a concession. If the miners wanted a measure like this passed, would they be more likely to go to Mr. Colvin, their representative in Parliament, than to you? —If any legislation were required, of course they would go to Mr. Colvin. I, or any other representative of the mine-owners, am quite powerless to obtain legislation. It would be absurd to apply to the mine-owners for any statutory concession, because we have no power to control Parliament. But if the men wanted this concession it could have been obtained, if deserved, without any interference of Parliament at all. 81. Now, if Mr. Colvin said that the miners did ask him to get a measure like the one now before the Committee placed on the statute-book, would that indicate that the men wanted it ?— Yes ; I should believe that Mr. Colvin was speaking the truth. 82. But would you believe that the miners wanted a measure like this placed on the statutebook ? —No; I should say that some members of the union executive, for reasons which may or may not be for the benefit of the men, wished the measure passed, but not the miners. 83. Suppose that a poll of the miners working at your mine and the other mines at Reefton was taken, and 90 per cent, said they wanted a measure of this kind passed, would you believe they wanted it ?—Yes; and if I were a miner and a poll was demanded I should certainly vote for it, because I would reckon that I should sell my labour at the best price. 84. Would you believe that the miners wanted the measure I asked ? —I believe that if you asked them whether they would like £1 a day for wages they would say " Yes." 85. The Chairman.] Do you believe the miners want this Bill passed on principle ?—They want any concession they can get. 86. Mr. Guinness.] Is it a concession ?—Yes. 87. Then they want it? —I have no doubt that in that way they do; but Ido not believe there is the slightest dissatisfaction with the present hours of labour, because the hours now, since the last award was made, are shorter than they have been at any time since the field was opened. While I think of it, I might say that the Mines Report says that the Reefton mines are the bestventilated in the colony. 88. Mr. R. McKenzie.] I think you said, in answer to Mr. Allen, that the Arbitration Court had power to fix the hours of labour ? —Yes. 89. Can you, as a solicitor, tell us whether the Arbitration Court has power to fix the hours of labour at more than eight hours and a half a day ?—The position is this : The Court has power to decide any dispute that comes before is. Every dispute is decided according to the circumstances of the case and the law of the colony for the time being. 90. The Chairman.] Mr. McKenzie asks you whether the Court can override the law of last session fixing eight hours and a half as a limit?—No, certainly it cannot. The Arbitration Court has to make its awards in conformity with the statute law of the colony. 91. Mr. R. McKenzie.] The Court cannot compel any miner to work more than eight hours and a half a day ? —No ; every Court is subject to the control of Parliament. 92. You mean that the Court can fix the hours of labour as long as they are within the statutory limit ? —Certainly ; that is why we object to an arbitrary statutory limit. 93. Have you ever heard of such a thing as " miners' complaint" at Reefton?—l have.

SMITH LAUGHTON PATRICK FREE.]

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94. Is it prevalent there ?—I do not think it is what you would call prevalent; but Ido know this : Among other things, the firm of which I am a member are agents for a life-insurance company, and they are as prepared to take a miner's life as any other man's. They take miners without any loading at all on account of their occupation. 95. That is by special arrangement ? —There is no special arrangement. 96. Supposing that I was a miner, and a first-class life from an insurance point of view, and I went to any insurance company in the colony, do you think that they would take me without charging an extra premium unless there was a special arrangement with your management ?— Certainly. As far as I am aware, any life-insurance company in New Zealand would take a miner's life as a first-class one, without any loading whatever, and without any arrangement whatever. 97. If the Government Life Insurance Department and other life-insurance companies say on their printed circulars that there is a certain loading on miners' lives ?—I would be surprised to learn that that was so. 98. Suppose the Australian Mutual Association, for instance, put a loading on miners' lives, would you say that your companies were getting a concession from some insurance company or other by it insuring the miners without a loading ? —My firm are agents for the Australian Widows' Fund, and we are prepared to insure miners, no matter in what mine they are employed, on the same terms as, say, a farm-labourer. We are prepared to take them as first-class lives. 99. Is the Australian Widows' Fund a safe company for any one to insure in ?—• I think it is one of the soundest financial institutions in the Southern Hemisphere. 100. Coming back to miners' complaint, is it a serious matter in Reefton?—No, it is not. 101. That is your opinion ? —My reason for holding that opinion is this : There is a certain amount of consumption per head throughout the colony. I have no statistics to support my statement, but I do not believe there are more consumptives per thousand of the population in mines than out of them. 102. Have you a medical officer attached to your mines ?—No, not a regular medical officer ; but I have had conversations with the medical men in the district, and they tell me—Dr. Conlin, of Reefton, a medical man of good standing, tells me that in his opinion mining is not injurious to health, except when the men are not careful to water their holes as much as they should ; that if they breathe grit it is injurious, but the dynamite-smoke is not injurious to health. Of course, mind you, that is qualified to this extent : where the dynamite smoke vitiates the air you do not get as much oxygen as you would if there were no smoke in the air, but it is not actively deleterious. 103. Is that your private opinion, or what you have heard?—That is my opinion, founded upon conversations with medical men, one of my authorities being Dr. Conlin. 104. Do you think that is the general opinion about Reefton?—l do not know. I say that a stone-cutter's occupation is every bit as —or more —injurious to health, even though he is working in the open air, as working in a mine, for the very same reason. 105. If this Bill became law, what effect would it have on your company financially ?—I think it. would increase our working-cost mining rock by 15 per cent. 106. How do you make it up?—l have gone into figures, and make it up in that way. 107. Have you got the figures with you?—Not all of them. The passing of the Bill would increase the cost of mining quartz from 10 per cent, to 15 per cent.—not the total working-cost. 108. Not the cost of management '?—No. The cost of winning the ore would be raised by from TO per cent, to 15 per cent. The figures are easily arrived at. At the Progress Mine we work five hours and a half on Saturday, as against seven hours and a half on the other days of the week, and we only get 63 per cent, of the ore that we get on a full shift day. 109. Is there no reason for the proportion being less on a Saturday ?—We only work from midnight till 8 p.m.; we lose four hours then. 110. I mean for the time the men are working. Are you aware of any reason why the proportion should be less of a Saturday than for any other day in the week ?—Yes ; I will explain it. One would naturally expect to find, other things being equal, that the reduced output would be in proportion to the lesser number of hours, but it is not; it is less. I think the reason is this: the men, before leaving their faces on Saturday, are generally a little more careful in timbering up. 111. You say that you think that is the reason ? —I have no doubt it is. 112. Are you a practical miner yourself?—l am not. 113. So that you cannot say positively that that is the reason ? —I find that there is a considerably reduced output on Saturday, and I am giving you, to the best of my belief, the reason for it. lam finding an excuse for an abnormally reduced output. 114. Is it a fact that your shift-bosses have instructions to see that all faces are left safe on Saturday? —At all times they have instructions to keep the mine as safe as possible; but it is not an uncommon thing for a shift-boss to find a man working at a dangerous place, and to dismiss him straight away. 115. Is it not a fact that the men must give a certain amount of time to timbering up on Saturday before leaving ?—No doubt. 116. Is not that the real reason for the output being smaller?—l think it is. I say that the timbering-up would account for our getting on Saturday only 63 per cent, of the quantity of quartz that we get on an ordinary day, whereas in proportion to the time worked we should get 80 per cent. 117. If the timbering-up had not to be done on Saturday, no doubt the output would be proportionately as large as on an ordinary day ? —lt would be proportionately the same. I have heard people contend that a man can put out as much quartz in five hours and a half as in seven and a half, but that is perfectly absurd.

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[SMITH LAUGHTON PATRICK* FREE.

118. Do you get the ore by piecework or day-work ?—Practically all day-work. The main work is done by shift, not by contract. 119. Mr. Colvin.] How many men have you working in the mines—l do not mean those at the battery, but those getting quartz? —I cannot give you the exact number, but it would be between three and four hundred. 120. How many altogether, including the battery-hands ?—Between four and five hundred. 121. You say that your firm are agents for an insurance company, and that you would take a miner's life as being as good as that of anyone working outside a mine?—Yes; we insure them at the same rates. We have no firedamp at all in quartz-mines, and there is no danger of explosion in that way. That is a distinction between quartz and coal mines. 122. Mr. W. Fraser.] I only wish to ask the witness a question in order to elucidate a point which did not seem clear. You said that the Arbitration Court was bound down in its decisions by legislation ?—That is so. 123. Is there any legislation which fixes the minimum hours that men shall work in mines ? —None that I am aware of. 124. Is it competent, then, for the Arbitration Court, on appeal being made to it to reduce the hours in a mine, to do so ? —lt is competent for the Court to do so, and it has done so. 125. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Does that apply to all the men working in a mine, or those in one particular place ? —lt applies to all the men working underground. 126. You say that it has been done : will you give us the special case ? — The case was where the men were working in wet or deficient places. At all events, I know, from reading the award of the Arbitration Court in the Waihi dispute, that there was a reduction of hours in two instances. 127. To the men working in special places?—Yes, specially dangerous, unhealthy, or unwholesome places; where the circumstances warranted a reduction it was made. 128. I suppose that the Arbitration Court could close a mine altogether if it liked, could it not ?—I do not think the Court could do a thing like that, unless a mine was specially dangerous. I suppose it could then, until the conditions were improved. But that would be the duty of the Mining Inspectors. I would like to mention the case of the Inkerman Mines, at Reefton, whose manager, Mr. Dudgeon, asked me to represent his case before the Mines Committee. It is a case in which all the rich ore had been taken out of the mines by a former company. The mines were then sold to an English company, and that company have been working now for some fix or six years, during which time they have expended some £56,000 without getting any return at all. They have opened up a large quantity of ore, but it has been all of an exceedingly low grade, and for some time past the company have been considering how they can make this low-grade ore pay. The probabilities are that if their costs are increased, by even a fraction, they will have to abandon the mines altogether. It is even now doubtful whether they will be able to secure a margin of profit at all; but any increase in the cost will certainly shut down the mines altogether, and the £56,000 will be entirely lost. 129. The Chairman.] How many men do they employ ?—Twenty-five at present; they have employed a larger number. 130. How many acres have they got ? —Some 300 or 400 acres of land. They have expended the money in driving a long tunnel, several thousand feet long. 131. Though they have 300 or 400 acres, they employ only twenty-five men ?—That is all they can employ at present. They have not yet been able to get the mine sufficiently far advanced to enable them to work it at a profit. Before they took up the land it did not employ any men at all. The former company went into liquidation, the leases were cancelled, and the land thrown open. The property lay idle for a long time, till the leases were taken up by a speculator, who sold them to the English company. 132. You said just now that the capitalists in your district had not combined with the capitalists up north in regard to labour matters ?—That is so. 133. Are you aware that the capitalists up north, under Mr. Rhodes, held a meeting n reference to this Bill of Mr. Guinness's?—l do know that. 134. And that it was agreed that you were one of the witnesses to be called ?—I did not know that. 135. It was arranged that there were to be three from Reefton ?—I did not know it; but Ido know this : I telegraphed to Mr. Rhodes, and asked him what was being done in the matter, and whether I would meet him in Wellington. He said, No; he was sending his objections to the proposal in writing to the Committee. 136. Three witnesses were to come from Reefton ? —As a matter of fact, three have not come; there are only two. 137. Who was the third to have been ? —There was a suggestion that three should come. We stated that myself and two others were coming here to give evidence, and asked whether any were coming from Auckland. The reply we received was, " No, we are not coming down. We are going to write to the members of the Committee, putting our reasons for objecting to the proposal on paper." That is the only communication which has passed between us. Personally, I have never met Mr. Rhodes. 138. You say that the conditions down the West Coast, where you come from, are very favourable for mining?—Exceedingly so. 139. Is not the climate very bad?—No, it is not. 140. Then, a miner at Reefton has as good a life as a miner anywhere else?—Better, in many instances. 141. You have no gas to contend with down there, like they have at the Thames? —No, no gas at all. I have never heard of any at Reefton.

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142. Have you ever heard that they have gas at the Thames?—l am not acquainted with the Thames. 143. Are you aware that when the dispute was before the Court at Waihi Mr. Boyd and Mr. Ziman were sent up from Reefton in regard to the wages question ? —That is not correct. 144. It is incorrect that Mr. Boyd was sent up from Reefton, and gave evidence ? —lt is incorrect as far as lam aware. I speak for my own companies. 145. Mr. Ziman's name is in the agreement? —I am speaking of David Ziman. You are speaking of Jacob. 146. Did not Jacob Ziman represent David?—David Ziman, I believe, had some interest in one of the mines near the Waihi. 147. But did not Jacob represent David on the Coast also ?—No. 148. If he said so in connection with the dispute, was he telling the truth?—All I know is this: that at the time the dispute was on no communication on the subject passed between Jacob Ziman and my company—the Consolidated Goldfields—authorising him to appear for or represent the company in any shape or form. 149. Are you aware that witnesses were brought up to show that the mines at Reefton were in such a bad condition that the miners up north could not expect the same wages as those at Reefton, that they should work for at least 40 per cent, less ?—That Ido not know. The contention that we raised some two years earlier, was that the conditions in the Reefton mines were more favourablethan in those up north, and that our men should work for the same wages, or less. 150. You wished the wages paid at your mines to be reduced to those paid at Waihi ?—We said that, if it was reasonable to pay the men at Waihi 7s. and Bs. a day, that was a reasonable wage to pay at our field, all things being equal, as they are, or more favourable, at Reefton. 151. Then, you would be surprised to learn that Mr. Ziman and Mr. Boyd came up to Auckland and gave evidence to show that Waihi was in so much better a condition that the men there could not expect to get within 40 per cent, of the wages paid on the Coast ? —I may be misinformed, but at the time the dispute arose I believe both those gentlemen were residents of Auckland. 152. If they said that, would you believe their. ?—As I said before, I do not know the conditions in the North Island, excepting by hearsay ; but I can say this : from what I have learnt from gentlemen who do' know the conditions there, the Reefton mines, as far as the working-conditions are concerned, are the best in the colony. Apart from sanitation, and so on, the conditions of life are not unfavourable at Reefton. A man working at the Progess Mine can get board and lodging for 15s. a week, so the cost of living is not high. The weather is certainly colder in the winter at Reefton than it is in the north, but with that exception there are no conditions surrounding the Reefton mines, as far as I know, that render them less favourable—in fact, the reverse is the case. 153. There is very little water in the mines at Reefton?—There is practically no water. There is not a mine-pump there. 154. There are very few wet places ?—Few or none. There are none that you can characterize as wet places. 155. And there is no gas ?—No gas at all. 156. Mr. Guinness.] Was a dividend paid to shareholders in the Progress Mines in New Zealand last year ? —Yes. 157. What was it? —-There were two dividends of 5 per cent. each. 158. Can you remember what the total profit for the year was—how much of that the dividends absorbed, and what amount was carried forward? —No, I do not remember. I thought I had brought the balance-sheet with me, but I find I have got the previous year's. 159. Are the figures to be found in the Mines Record ?—That is very probable, though I have not seen them there. If it would be of any information to the Committee I should be pleased to forward a copy of the balance-sheet. 160. You are not an experienced miner, nor do you work in a mine, nor have anything to do with the work underground ? —No. 161. Do you know what time the miners usually take for crib, or what is the time that has been reported to you ?—lt has been reported to me that they take from twenty minutes to half an hour. 162. Is any time taken up in the morning or the afternoon by what they call " smoke-ho " ?— Not that I am aware of. 163. The miners made no suggestion, when you were making the last agreement with them, for an alteration of the hours of labour ?—No, I have no recollection of any suggestion being made as to an alteration of the hours of labour. With regard to the dividend that Mr. Guinness was asking about, I would like to add that, though we have declared a 10-per-cent. dividend for the year, at the present time—or, rather, at the end of the year —we could only report that there was two years' ore in sight, as we have had no stone in the bottom of the mine for the last two years, so the life of the mine—l speak of the Progress—is under two years, unless further ore is discovered. Peecy Niohol Kingswell examined. (No. 15.) 164. The Chairman.] What is your name?—Percy Nicol Kingswell. 165. Where do you live, Mr. Kingswell? —At Reefton. 166. What is your occupation ? —I am legal manager of several companies—three quartzmining companies. 167. What are the three ? —The Kirwan's Reward, Alpine Extended, and Victoria Range Gold-mining Companies. ■168. Have you got a mine-manager's certificate? —No ; I am legal manager. 10—I. 4a.

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[PERCY NICHOL KINGSWELL.

169. You know nothing of the practical working of a mine ?—No ; I never worked in a mine myself, though I own a mine. 170. Mr. J. Allen.] How long have you been connected with mining ? —lntimately for the last eight years. The whole of my attention has been occupied with it for the last eight years—-most of the time as a director. I took up the legal management some three years ago. 171. You have been connected with gold-mining mostly?—Altogether. 172. What is the present position of the gold-mining industry : is it flourishing ? —As far as Reefton is concerned, it has never been so quiet. The outlook has never been worse. Of eight private mines at Reefton that I am connected with, four are on the verge of liquidation, two of which will be liquidated in a couple of months; and three others will, I think, go shortly. The deeper they go the poorer the ore is, and the more expensive to open up ; they have not got the capital, and cannot get it. 173. You know this proposed legislation ?—Yes. 174. Do you know if it is desired by the workmen ?—Well, I have discussed the matter, I suppose, more than any one else at Reefton. Mr. Guinness was there at one time when I discussed the matter with eight or nine miners. They were all satisfied with the existing conditions, and did not know that the proposed legislation was contemplated. Since then I have met a large number of miners, who said they were also satisfied. I tried to induce some of them to come and give evidence to that effect, and their only reason for not coming was, they said, because they would be looked upon as black-legs by the members of the union if they did. Very few of the men with whom I have discussed the matter were aware that this legislation was contemplated. 175. Then, who are the instigators of the proposed legislation ? —As far as my personal knowledge is concerned, Mr. Guinness was the first one who spoke about it to me. 176. How would it affect the employers ? —Very seriously. It would mean the closing-down of some mines, and would certainly increase the cost of mining of others by from 10 to 15 per cent. In the case of the Alpine Extended it would mean the locking-down of one of the largest and oldest mines in the field. I have with me a copy of the last balance-sheet of the Alpine Extended Goldmining Company, which I will hand in. In September, 1895, the company amalgamated with an adjoining claim, and since then 32,565 pounds' worth of gold has been won ; the mine wages have amounted to £21,029 ; the battery wages have been £3,471; and contract work—driving levels and mine-development —has cost £2,043. Then, mine-timber cost £1,894. These items of expenditure total between £26,000 and £29,000, out of a total yield of thirty-two thousand pounds' worth of gold. That is the case of a mine which is exceptionally situated. The deeper we get the poorer the ore becomes, so much so that there are some hundreds of thousands of tons of ore in the mine at the present time that we are endeavouring, by means of improved methods of treatment, to make payable ; and, if this legislation that is proposed is brought in, where the men will take some considerable time to get to their work it will certainly make a difference of nearly one-third in the cost. It will take the men two hours from surface to surface in travelling at the Alpine Extended. The low-level tunnel is in from 4,000 ft. to 4,400 ft., and the shaft is down 125 ft., and to get from the surface to where the men are working it takes about fifty-five minutes. This mine has never been brought Under an award of the Arbitration Court. The men are satisfied. 177. They have never been to the Arbitration Court ?—No. 178. And you have never had an order of reference ?—No. There are between forty and fifty men employed there at the present time, and they are perfectly satisfied. 179. Are they the men of whom you were speaking just now?—Yes. 180. Mr. They are away from the union ?—There are a large number of union men working there. 181. Mr. R. McKenzie.] The mine was shut down for some time ?—For about twelve months. 182. Are you the owner of a mine yourself ?—Yes. 183. The Inglewood and the Victoria Mines ? —Yes. 184. What was the cost ? —Three companies recently went into liquidation—the Phoenix, the Inglewood, and the Victoria. I bought the three about fifteen months ago, and am extending the low-level tunnel. I would rather not state the price. 185. Mr. J. Allen.] What about this mine of yours? —The low level was in 1,800 ft., but the company went into liquidation. lam extending the level a further distance of 1,400 ft., a contract for a part of which has been let, and some of it completed. 186. If this proposed legislation came into force, excluding the words "exclusive of mealtimes," what would be the effect?—Had I known that this was contemplated I would not have undertaken the opening-up of the mine. Low-grade ore is all that is known of in the mine. 187. What hours are the men working there now ? —The men are working by contract, and consequently work their own hours, with the exception of two, who are on day-wages. They work eight hours a day. 188. Are they eight hours underground ?—Sometimes they are underground, and sometimes outside. 189. Would this legislation affect your contractors' hours?—l do not suppose it would. They are free to work what hours they like. 190. The law would apply to them, as to others? —It should do so, of course. The principal man who is looking for contract work at the mine—a man named Baker, a member of the miners' union,—is opposed to this proposed legislation. 191. Do you consider mining a healthy occupation ?—Yes, I do. I may say that I have been agent for the Australian Mutual Provident Society for a number of years, and during that time I have insured a great number of miners. They are not loaded on account of their occupation, as some other tradesmen are, and the percentage of those who propose and pass for insurance compares favourably with almost any trade. The result of the doctor's examination in nearly every case being very high.

PERCY NICHOL KINGSWELL.]

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192. There is no loading ? —No loading on account of occupation. 193. The miners are treated as favourably as if they followed an outside occupation?—Yes, equally well. 194. What outside occupation are they treated as well as?—Any trade on the surface—better than bakers, or hotel cooks, or hotelkeepers. Several trades are loaded, but mining is not. No doubt mining—of course, I refer to quartz-mining —is more liable to accident, but there is nothing in it injurious to health outside that. More particularly has this been so at my mine since it has been opened up again, for it is now very much better ventilated than it was. 195. Mr. Herries.] How many men are there employed at the Alpine Extended Mine ?— Between forty and fifty, about thirty-three or thirty-five of whom are in the mine. 196. The effect of this contemplated legislation would be to increase your cost ? —Considerably below a payable limit. 197. Do you mean that you could not turn out the same amount of ore ?—That is it. 198. How much less would you turn out ?—I reckon it would be one-third less. 199. Supposing that it was given in evidence that the miners could do the same amount of work in less time, what would you say to that ?—I should say it was impossible for them to do so. 200. Would the fact of a smaller amount of ore coining out of the mine have any effect on your battery ?—Of course it would. We would have to have the same feeders and battery-men going for a smaller quantity. 201. They would put less through ?—Yes. 202. Do you use the cyanide process ?—Yes. 203. Would the passing of the Bill make any difference to that? —Of course it would. The men would not get the same quantity. When the cyanide-works are going full time there is a man on for each of three shifts, and they would have much less to do, but be paid at the same rate as now. 204. It would not only affect the actual mining, but the cyanide ?—Cyanide, and everything else. 205. Supposing that the miners worked harder and got out the same amount of ore in half an hour a day less, could you get it to the surface in the shorter time ?—No, we could not. We could not possibly lift any more than we are now lifting. 206. Mr. W. Fraser.] You say that you are working under an award of the Arbitration Court ?—Not at that particular mine. 207. Then, you are subject to the legislation of 1901 as to hours ? —Yes ; but I do not know even as to that, because the men and the company have always worked so amicably together that we have not had a question. The men are seven hours and a half at the face now. 208. Mr. Herries.] Do you work one shift ?—No ; three shifts. 209. Mr. W. Fraser.] Then, your objection is to the proposed Bill, not to the Act of 1901 ?— Yes. 210. Mr. R. McKenzie.] What is the value of the gold obtained from the Alpine Extended Mine since 1897 ?—32,565 pounds' worth, besides tributers. 211. When did you erect the cyanide-works there? —Four years ago. 212. Did you buy the tailings that were stacked up from the old mine ?—Yes. 213. Twenty years' crushings, you may say ?—Yes. 214. There was a considerable stack ?—There were 3,400 tons. 215. How much of the gold obtained did you get out of the tailings ?—lt is shown separately in the balance-sheet. 216. None of the gold obtained from the tailings is included in the £32,000 ?—None. 217. When was the Alpine Mine practically closed down, the staff reduced to a caretaker, and two or three men prospecting ?—From July, 1900, to July, 1901—ten or twelve months. 218. When did the mine stop producing gold under the old management —before the amalgamation ?—lt was worked up to within three months of 1897. 219. Has the Lyell Creek Mine been working since 1897?—Since the amalgamation we have been working the mines together. 220. How much of this thirty-two thousand pounds' worth of gold did you get out of the Lyell Creek Mine? —I could not tell you, because we work the mines as one now. 221. Coming to the low-level tunnel: did the Alpine Company drive that tunnel?—Not all of it. 222. How much of it ?—I suppose, between 600 ft. and 700 ft. 223. Out of the 4,000 ft. or 5,000 ft. ?—About 4,000 ft., I think. 224. So that, as a matter of fact, this tunnel was driven by a different company, and did not cost the Alpine Company anything?—Oh, yes; we purchased the whole thing. 225. Did not the Alpine Extended Company amalgamate with the people who had the lowlevel tunnel ?—The two companies were amalgamated on a certain basis—lB,ooo shares out of 32,000. 226. Ido not mean the amalgamation with the Lyell Creek Company; I mean with the lowlevel tunnel party? —The low-level tunnel was the Lyell Creek Company's property. 227. What was the value of the shares immediately after the amalgamation—say, two or three years ago, or twelve months ago ?—The prices varied considerably. 228. Were they down to 6d. a share ?—I never heard of a sale at 6d., but I did hear of a few shares being auctioned at 9d. and lOd. each. 229. So that since you went into the amalgamation the value of the shares has been from 6d. to 9d. each ?—They have gone as low as Is. each. 230. Is there any reason why the work that you are doing now cannot be done on piecework ? —Yes.

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[PERCY NICHOL KINGSWELL.

231. What is the reason ?—The bodies of ore are so disjointed and scattered about that you cannot let a contract, and when you are working a reef that has been worked for the last twenty years you cannot get the ore so clean as to make it payable to do the work by contract when it is broken and disjointed. 232. How do they do it in Auckland? —I do not know. If the conditions were similar 233. You told us that you were extending the low-level tunnel : cannot that work be done by contract ?—I said the Inglewood low tunnel—not the Alpine. It has not been extended. 234. About forty men are working now ? —Yes. 235. There is no miners' union at Lyell ?—There was at one time. 236. When ?—Six or seven years ago. They were connected with the Denniston Union, I think. They did not want a union, however, and gave it up. 237. Was that union registered?—l understand it was, but cannot swear to it. 238. Is your battery at work now at the .Alpine Mine ?—Yes ; it is crushing now. 239. How long has it been started ?—lt has been crushing now regularly for about nine months. 240. You say there is no miners' union at Lyell now. As a matter of fact, there is no connection between the Reefton quartz-mining district and the Lyell district ?—Oh, yes, there is. 241. What is the distance between them by road? —About thirty miles, I think. 242. Do you think that if this measure is placed on the statute-book it will be the means of arresting your operations at the Alpine Mine ?—lt will mean the shutting-down of the mine. 243. You think so ?—I am certain of it. There can be no question about it after last month's crushing. 244. What difference would the passing of the measure make?—You can see from the balancesheet that we have gone back about £2,000 in five years, and have been working full time, with the exception of the ten months that the mine was shut down. 245. How many men have you working inside the mine now getting ore?—From thirty to thirty-five. 246. If you put two more men on, could the same quantity be produced?—We could not put more men on. 247. Why?—Because we can only get a certain number of men in the faces. How could we put more men on a reef 2 ft. 6 in. wide ? 248. Could you not open another face ?—Every face is opened. 249. You could not start another shift? —No; we are working three now. 250. How long has that been the case? —Since January the three have been breaking stone all the time. 251. HoW many men did you have working there three months ago?—Six under the number we have now—that would be from thirty-five to forty. We put six more men on lately to try to get enough stone to keep the battery going, but they cannot do it. 252. Are the men working at the Victoria Range members of the Reefton Miners' Union ?— Yes. 253. How many men have you there ? —At present there are none, because the mine has been closed down for the last month. 254. But, generally, how many are there?—About thirty. 255. Of course, the mine is not permanently closed down ? —Oh, no ; only pending the erection of a new battery addition, and also on account of the severe frosts and snow. 256. Could you not put more men to work there —this Bill would reduce your time by only one-fifteenth ?—We could put more men on, but they would be in one another's road. We only work a day shift there. 257. Surely you do not mean to run that mine with only thirty men always, do you?—Yes. 258. You do not intend to have more than thirty?—lf we strike a solid reef we might. 259. I think you said there was no active agitation at Reefton to get a measure like this passed?—l never heard of any. 260. In fact, you had never heard of it till you heard Mr. Guinness speak about it at Reefton ? —That was the first I heard of it. 261. You do not take any interest in anything that goes on in Parliament?—l do, as a rule, regarding mining. I saw the Bill of last year. 262. Do you know whether the Reefton miners wished this Bill passed when last year's measure was placed on the statute-book ? —I know they did not. If they did, why did they not say so instead of renewing the previous award of the Arbitration Court—made in 1899—as they did, by mutual consent ? 263. But suppose the men applied to me?—Of course, that may have been just the one man. 264. Do you think that what the men do at their business meetings is more likely to indicate what they want than what is said in the streets ?—No, because one or two men may run the meetings. 265. How many members are there of the Reefton Union ?—Five hundred, I understand. 266. Do you think that one or two could run the whole five hundred ?—Practically they do. 267. Mr. Guinness.] I understand that your objection to this measure being passed is that, in your opinion, it would have the effect of increasing the cost of the output of quartz?—Yes. 268. Suppose that the Arbitration Court should decide that if the miners worked a lesser number of hours than they do now they would in proportion receive a lesser amount of pay, you would then have no objection to it'?—Yes, I would. 269. Why ?—Because the Arbitration Court's award would only affect the miners working on the face. 270. No, all miners?—There are others, apart from the miners, and if the Arbitration Court said that their hours of labour should be reduced

PERCY NICHOL KINGSWELL.]

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271. That only refers to those working underground? —But there is the mine-manager, and there are office expenses going on. 272. Would not those be infinitesimal in the case of a mine where there were two hundred men employed ?—The difference would be considerable, because where a large staff of men are working the management expenses are much greater. 273. This legislation would not increase those expenses?—Yes, it would, pro rata on the earn-ing-power of the property. 274. The earning-power of the property would be, we will say, one-fifteenth less per annum ?— No. You have got, say, two hundred miners working in a mine ; there would have to be, in addition to the miners, trimmers, chamber-men, and timber-men. 275. All these men would be underground except the timber-men?—No, they would not. 276. How many men would there be at the brace?—lt would depend entirely on the mine. 277. Take your mine, the Alpine Extended : What number of men are there on the surface that the eight hours from bank to bank provision would not affect ?—There is the mine-manager ; there is the underground manager ; a blacksmith ; a timber-man; nine or ten battery-men—l think, nine or ten. 278. But this would not affect the battery ?—lt would, on the calculation you are going on. 279. How would it ?—You are trying to make out that only the cost of working at the face would be affected. 280. Do you mean to say that it would stop the battery going for one hour in the year ?—No; but it would increase the cost of the ore pro rata. 281. You say that the battery-men are men whose work would be an extra charge on the company ?—Yes. 282. How many of them would there be ? —The number would vary in different mines. 283. How many at the Alpine Mine ?—Three boys, three blanket-waiters, two air-compress-ing men, and the manager. And then there are those attached to the cyanide-works. 284. Have you got cyanide-works there ?—Yes. And there are the brace-men—three or four, I think. 285. Those work in the mine, and would be affected by the Bill if it passed. I want the men who would not be affected?—There are the timber-men. 286. Do they not work by contract ?—ln one level they do, but not in the other. 287. How many would that make —eleven or thirteen ?—Speaking roughly, I should say it would make a difference of between twelve and fifteen men going full time—not per shift—when we are working three shifts at the battery, and only one outside. 288. I want the average per shift ? —At the Alpine, about ten or twelve. 289. How many men are there working underground there ?—From thirty to thirty-five. 290. You have got thirty-five and twelve —that is forty-seven men —working at the mine ?— The battery is not going full time. I said, provided it was going full time. The thirty miners are not able to keep it going full time. It would take fifty or sixty miners to do so. 291. You still think, then, that some extra cost would be put upon the mine proper if the Arbitration Court said that a proportion should be deducted from the men's wages on account of the shortened hours worked ? —Yes, there would be some. 292. Is there any other way in which the cost would be increased ? —I would put down a certain amount for interest on the money lying idle in the mine. 293. Interest on the gold not won ?—Yes, that is so. 294. Is there any other way in which the cost would be increased ?—That is all I can think of at present. 295. Before you left Reefton to come here to give evidence did you ask any of the miners in the Reefton Union whether they were prepared to come and give evidence against this measure?— I asked several men, but I could not swear that they were members of the union. 296. Can you mention the names of any well-known miners at Reefton ?—Yes ; MacNeill, who was formerly the secretary and afterwards president, and a man named Campbell, I think. 297. I mean since you have been summoned? —No, not since I have been summoned. 298. Since the session started you have received notice from the Chairman of this Committee to come and give evidence if you wished to do so? —Yes. 299. You told us that since you were asked to come you asked certain persons to come and give evidence, but they told you that they declined to come, because they might be branded as black-legs by the union. Those men must have been members of the union, otherwise they would not have said that ?—I take it they were. 300. What were their names ? —-They were Lyell men who had left the Golden Fleece. One was a man named Howard, but the other two names I do not know. 301. You refer to three only, who left Reefton and went to work at Lyell ?—There were several others, whose names I could not tell you. 302. Can you mention the names of any other miners than those three whom you have asked to come, but who have declined on the ground that they were members of a union, and might be termed black-legs if they did ?—I heard a number discussing 303. What do you call a number ?—I think I would be safe in saying twenty or thirty—old miners who have been there for years. 304. Men who are working now, or miners who have knocked off doing work ?—Men actually working now. 305. You have heard upwards of twenty or thirty say that they did not want this legislation of eight hours from bank to bank, inclusive of meal-time ?—I did not say that they did not want it. I said that they were satisfied without it. Probably they would take it if you gave it them. They did not know that the legislation was proposed.

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[HENRY BETTS.

306. Mr. R. McKenzie.] You said that Robert MacNeill, who was president of the miners union at one time, was one of the men whom you heard say that this legislation was not wanted ? —Yes. 307. Do you know whether he was balloted out of the union or not ?—I believe he was beaten for the secretaryship. 308. Do you know whether he ever worked in a mine ?—Yes. 309. Where?—l do not know which one. I believe it was at the Progress Mine. 310. As a matter of fact, is he not a farmer ?—Yes ; since his father's death he has been a farmer. Prior to that he was mining. 311. Was MacNeill mining when he was secretary to the union ?—No. 312. As a matter of fact, was he not County Chairman at the time he was secretary to the union, or a member of the Inangahua County Council ?—I do not think he was Chairman. He was a member of the Council. 313. Was he returned to the Council by the farming community— i.e., for Totara Flat—or for Reefton ?—He was returned by the mining people. 314. Hon. Mr. McGoivan.] Do you know the present secretary of the Reefton Union?—Yes. 315. Is he engaged in mining?—No ;he has not done so for some years. 316. Could you say how long it is since he was actively engaged in mining ? —To my own knowledge, four or five years at least, I should say. He was in the coal-carting business two or three years previously. 317. I suppose that a man who took an active part in getting the men shorter hours with the same rate of pay would be comparatively popular amongst a number of men ?—Yes, of course. 318. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Do you think the present secretary of the miners' union would be likely to be employed by any mine-proprietors in Reefton while he was secretary to the union ?— I should think so. I have seen the mine-proprietors looking, for men, and they would have been glad to get him or any one else. 319. They would not employ the secretary or the president of the union ?—Yes, they would. 320. Have you known any former occupant of the position who was employed ?—Yes ; a man who stood against Mr. Betts for the secretaryship this year was not affected a bit. 321. Do you know whether the union object to the secretary working at mining?—No. 322. The Chairman.] Did you hear of the Waihi case, where the union officials°were dismissed from the mine ?—I heard of it, but I did not know the details. 323. Do you use rock-drills at all at Reefton?—None of the New Zealand companies use them, though some of the English companies do. 324. Have you been in any mines where rock-drills are used ?—Yes; I believe they have them in the Golden Fleece Mine. 325. Are there dry places there?—Yes, sometimes. 326. Is there very much dust from the rock-drills in the dry places ?—Not from what I saw. The air seemed to be as good there as in any other part when I was in the mine. 327. Hon. Mr. McGowan.] Do you do dry crushing or wet crushing ?—Wet crushing. . 328. Have you ever adopted dry crushing at all ?—No. 329. Have you any knowledge or experience of dry crushing?—None at all. 330. Mr. J. Allen.) I understood you to say that the effect of this proposed legislation being carried would be to increase your cost by one-fifteenth?—l did not say that. I said that the cost would be increased by from 10 to 15 per cent. 331. On one shift or on three?—On the expenses for the year. • Heney Betts recalled. (No. 16.) 332. Mr. Guinness.] How long have you been connected with the miners' union of Reefton ? —I have been connected with the last one since its formation, six years ago. 333. How long have you been the secretary to it ? —This is my third year. I was president for two years before taking the position of secretary. 334. Has the request for this bank-to-bank clause been under the consideration of the miners for any length of time ; and, if so, for how long?—lt has been under the consideration of the miners for the last six years —ever since the union was formed —and, as a matter of fact, has always been placed on their order paper as one of the items to be discussed at the Trades Council Conferences held in one of the large centres annually. .\t the last Conference held in Auckland it was discussed, and a resolution was carried at that Conference at the instigation of the Westland Trades and Labour Council, with which our union is connected. 335. What was the resolution ?—That a clause be inserted in the Mining Acts—Coal and Gold—providing that a man should not be employed underground for a longer period than eight hours, including meal-time, on five days a week, nor more than four hours on Saturday. 336. You say the matter has been on the order paper for six years ?—Yes. 337. Do you mean that the miners adopted a resolution urging that legislation be passed in the direction of the Bill, or do you mean that it had not been decided what they would urge on the point?—lt had been decided by our union to urge that legislation be passed—most decidedly. 338. For the last six years ?—Time after time—year after year. 339. Do you know that candidates for Parliament have been asked to support that proposal for years past ? —Yes, I believe they have. lam certain that you yourself have been asked. 340. Do you know Mr. Free, of Reefton, a solicitor and an attorney for several companies? —Yes. 341. Do you know Mr. Kingswell, the legal manager of several companies, and also a mineproprietor ?—Yes.

HENRY BETTS.]

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342. Can you understand how it is that they, well-known residents of Reefton for some years, never heard of such a request until lately?—l cannot understand it. Of course, they are not connected with the miners' union in any way; but it is well known to every member of the union that the request has been made by the union time after time. 343. Mr. Colvin.] Can you tell me whether the conditions under which the miners work have improved of late years—whether the mines are in a better condition than they were a few years ago ?—The mines, as far as the actual workings, the timbering, and so on, are concerned, are just as good as they were. But a new system of mining has been adopted in our district, which applies to coal-mines as well as quartz-mines. I mean that rock-drills are used now, but they were not used in our district years ago. They make the occupation more unhealthy. There is more dust m the mines, and there are more fumes, because more blasting-material is used with the machines than by hand-labour. Another thing is this : Years ago the workings were very shallow, and the ventilation was undoubtedly better. Now, as the mines get deeper, the air gets warmer, and the ventilation is not so good. 344. You do not think the conditions are as favourable for the health of the miners now as they were ?—No, I should say not. They are not so good. 345. To your own knowledge, is as much quartz produced on the days preceding holidays and Sundays as in the ordinary course of events—i.e., on other working-days ?—No, Ido not think as much is produced on the days preceding days when the mines lie idle. On such days the miners produce very little quartz. They are generally employed in securing their faces prior to leaving them till after the holiday or the Sunday, as the case may be; consequently on such a day there would not be so much quartz broken as on other days. It is always the custom in mines to secure the faces prior to a holiday. 346. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Do you remember stating, when you were examined before, that at Reefton the men do not change shifts at the face ?—Yes, certainly. I said that it had never been the custom in the Reefton district to change shifts at the face. 347. And that it was not at all necessary that the men should change there?—Certainly not. 348. Do you remember the Minister of Mines stating that it was always considered necessary to change shifts at the face at the Thames?—He did not say that it was considered necessary; he said that it was the custom. 349. Do you recollect saying that you knew it was not the custom at Waihi ?—I told him that it was not the custom. 350. Have you communicated with the Thames Miners' Union since then ?—I have communicated with the secretary to the union on two occasions since then. 351. On this question of changing shifts at the face?—Yes. 352. Perhaps I had better not continue my questions till the Minister of Mines comes in. 353. Mr. Herries.] Mr. Guinness asked you a question as to whether any candidate for Parliament had been approached with regard to this question of eight hours from bank to bank, including meal-time ? —Yes. 354. You said they had been approached?—Yes. 355. Was it made a condition with candidates that they should support the proposal before the miners' union would vote for them?—Yes, it has been a condition. 356. Therefore any candidate who advocates it does so in order to get the miners' vote ? I would not say so. Ido not think any candidate would advocate it unless he thought it to be just and proper. 357. You say that the miners' union would not vote for a candidate unless he did advocate the proposal ?—I did not say so. 358. I thought you said that advocating the proposal was a condition ?—Certainly; it was one of the planks. 359. Was it a condition of getting the miners' vote that a candidate would do his best to support them ?—Naturally, the miners' union would support the candidate who was inclined to support what they required. That is only natural. 360. I think you said that the question had been a plank of their platform for six years ? Yes ; I can go further, and say it was on the union's platform ten or twelve years ago. 361. Why is it that when sittings of the Arbitration Court have been held applications for the eight hours from bank to bank have not been made ?—Applications have been made. I can assure you that an application was made in our case, and we got a concession at the time. We did not get all we asked for, but we got a concession. 362. A document was handed in by Mr. Free showing the demands of the union in 1899. Those demands, as far as we could see, did not contain any application that the eight hours should be taken from bank to bank?—l could not speak as to that particular case. 363. What award are the gold-miners working under now ?—Under an industrial agreement. 364. Was the eight hours from bank to bank system demanded when that industrial agreement was entered into ?—No, Ido not think so. I think I gave evidence before on that point, stating the reasons why it was not asked for—viz., that we agreed with almost everything else in the reference at that time, and did not wish this matter to be a bar to the agreement being brought about. I also said that we relied on getting Parliament to deal with the matter. 365. What I want to get at is this: A mine-manager, taking the demands made by the men would not have any knowledge that they desired the eight hours from bank to bank system if no reference was made to it in the demands ?—Most decidedly. I suppose the mine-manager would know that the men desired it as well as they themselves, because managers are generally acquainted with what is going on. There is no doubt about that. 366. Would not a mine-manager take it that if the men desired a thing they would make application for it when making an industrial agreement ?—There are many things in connection

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[henry betts

with an industrial agreement or with sending a reference to the employers that you have to consider. There are different concessions that you want to get, and sometimes you give way on one point in order to get another. But the miners—the general body of miners in this colony—have never looked to the Arbitration Court to get this kind of concession. It has always been a plank in their political platform. 367. The miners would rather get it by pressing candidates for Parliament than by demanding it from the mine-managers ?—They would rather get it in the easiest possible way. There is no doubt about that. 368. Mr. J. Allen.] How long ago was it that they started to make this demand—ten years? —Yes, and longer. 369. What was the demand ? —Eight hours from bank to bank. 370. Was anything said about the meal-time then ?—No. Eight hours from bank to bank was the time specified. 371. Is there any record of that ?—I dare say there would be records of it. 372. Can you produce any?—l could not produce any now. 373. Can you send us any record of such an application ?—I dare say it could be got. 374. Who was the demand made to eight years ago ?—lt was a plank in the union's platform. 375. When was the demand for eight hours from bank to bank first made ? —I do not quite grasp what you mean. 376. The Chairman.] Did the miners make such a demand on the employers, or on anybody ? —On candidates for Parliament. 377. Mr. J. Allen.] When did the men first make a demand on the employers for eight hours from bank to bank ? —I do not know that they have made any demand on the employers— not in connection with Arbitration Courts and industrialagreements. 378. Are you speaking for yourself ? —Yes. 379. Do you know about other mines or miners ? —No. The possibilities are that if I had made demands others would have done so. 380. You do not know whether the Otago Coal-miners' Union ever made such a demand ? — I do not. 381. You yourself have never made a demand on the employers such as is referred to?—As I said, we have a number of matters to consider in making industrial agreements, and we regulate our demands to suit ourselves—that is as regards other matters also. 382. Do you generally make excessive demands in order that you may have something to give away ? —No, I do not think so. 383. Do you know if that has ever been done ?—I do not think it has. 384. Are you sure ?—I am certain that we never make any excessive demands. 385. Mr. R. McKenzie.] You know my electorate pretty well ?—Yes. 386. There are no branches of the miners' union of any kind in my district ? —No, I do not think there are. 387. Do you think that if such a demand as has been mentioned had been made on me as a candidate for Parliament that would have been likely to have influenced my opinion if I did not believe in it ? —I do not think so. 388. As a matter of fact, although there is no branch of the miners' union in my electorate, you are aware that I have supported the principle ?—Yes. 389. So that the pressure.referred to by Mr. Herries did not actually exist?—l do not suppose that any candidate would promise to support and advocate a matter of this kind unless he thought it right and proper. 390. As the Minister of Mines is now here, I will resume questioning you on the matter that I was asking you about before. You said that you had received a telegram from the secretary of the quartz-miners' union at the Thames with reference to changing shifts?—Yes. 391. What was the reply that Mr. Lucas sent you ?—That it was customary to change in the chambers. 392. Did he say whether that had been the custom for some time?—He did not state that. 393. Is this telegram something like the one that you received : " It is customary to change shifts in chambers, and not at face, both Thames and Coromandel ?—Yes, that is it. If any attempt is made to compel the men to change at the faces it will be increasing their present hours of labour. 394. At Reefton, for instance, what difference in time would it make changing shifts, say, in the chamber at the bottom of the shaft, or at the surface ?—Very little difference. 395. At the Globe or the Keep-it-Dark ?—lt would be less at the Keep-it-Dark. 396. Would it make five minutes' difference '?—lt might make ten minutes. 397. How long does it take the cage to go up?—That depends on the number of men to be hauled. 398. Take one cageful ?—I could not tell you the time, but it would be very short. 399. Not more than five minutes ?—lt would not be five minutes. 400. So that the difference between changing at the chamber at the bottom of the shaft and changing at the surface could not exceed five minutes ? —lf the men are compelled by law to change at the bottom of the shaft their hours will be increased. I would like to add this to my evidence : As there seems to be a doubt whether the miners have asked for the eight hours from bank to bank, I say that we will have a general meeting of members of the union and send the result to the Committee. 401. Mr. Guinness.] What is the proportion of unionists to non-unionists among the miners in the Reefton district ? —There are very few non-unionists in the Reefton district. 402. What is the proportion ?—Fully 95 per cent, of the men employed in the district are members of the union. There are very few outside the union.

JOHN FOSTER.]

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403. Hon. Mr. McGowan.] You have had a good deal of experience in quartz-mines ?—Yes, 404. Did you ever work on a specimen lode? —I have worked on very rich stone. 405. " Specimen lode " is a term understood by all miners ?—Yes, I have worked on specimen lodes. 406. Did you leave the iode when you were changing shifts and go away ?—Yes. 407. Where was that ?—At the Keep-it-Dark Mine. 408. On a specimen lode?—Yes. 409. Do you know that at mines where they work three shifts the men who are working on a specimen lode work only two shifts, and the drive is locked-up ?—No, I never knew of a case of that kind. I might add that not 10 per cent, of the quartz-miners in New Zealand have ever worked on specimen lodes. John Foster recalled. (No. 17.) 410. Mr. Guinness.] You have been working for some years in a quartz-mine, I believe ?— Yes. 411. Can you inform the Committee whether any general desire has been expressed in the past by the miners to have the proposed amendment made in the Mining Act, providing for eight hours from bank to bank, inclusive of meal-time?—l may say that I have not worked in a quartzmine for a number of years; but, under the rules of our association—the Trades Council—these things have to be put on the order paper every year, and I know that the eight hours from bank to bank matter has been put on the order paper by the Reefton miners for the last six years— i.e., since the Council has been in vogue. 412. What do you mean when you say that the matter has been placed on the order paper ?— The matter is sent, to be placed on the order paper for business. 413. The Chairman.] Is the business discussed ?—Yes, in the Council. 414. Mr. Guinness.] Could that be done without the miners agreeing to the proposed change? —I do not think so. Under our system of placing things on the order paper, a special meeting is held for the occasion, and whatever that special meeting decides is sent forward to be placed on the order paper. 415. Do you consider working in a quartz-mine as unhealthy as you said it was in a coalmine ? —Yes, I consider that working in a quartz-mine is unhealthy, more especially on account of dynamite, gelatine, and so forth, being used. 416. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Were you the president of the union at Denniston in 1894 or 1895?— I have been president at Denniston continuously since 1895. 417. Mr. Hollows was secretary at that time ?—Yes. 418. Do you recollect yourself, Mr. Hollows, and one or two others asking me to introduce you to Mr. Cadman (who was Minister of Mines then) when he was at Denniston in 1895, and you asked him to give you an eight-hours day from bank to bank ?—I do. 419. I think that was in 1894 ?—I believe it was in the latter part of 1894 or at the beginning of 1895. I could not say exactly. • 420. The fact of your deputation waiting on Mr. Cadman then showed that you wanted the eight hours from bank to bank at that time, and you have been trying to get it ever since ?—Yes ; we can go back fourteen years, and can point to a deputation here in Wellington on the same question. 421. Mr. J. Allen.] When you made that application to Mr. Cadman did you consider the question of the meal-time ? —Yes, it was all taken into consideration. We simply asked for a Bill of eight hours from bank to bank, including the meal-time. 422. I suppose the miners would like the time to be seven hours from bank to bank, provided they got the same wages ?—I do not suppose they would grumble about it. 423. Mr. Herries.] If this demand has been made for such a long time, how is it that whenever an industrial agreement has been made or a case brought before the Arbitration Court the demand has not been put forward?—lt has been. 424. As far as your knowledge is concerned ? —As far as my knowledge is concerned. We have shown it in black and white on our reference every year, but the Court has refused to grant it because the Government had under consideration an Eight Hours Bill. 425. We have had put before us the demands made by the miners' union in reference to some gold-mine that Mr. Free is connected with, and the eight hours from bank to bank is not asked for there ? —That I cannot speak about. 426. As far as your knowledge goes, the principle has always been asked for in the demands ? —Yes, always. 427. Mr. Guinness.] Is there anything you would like to add to what you have already said? —There is one thing that I would like to mention. It has always been the custom to change shifts at the chamber or the surface during my experience in quartz-mines. 428. Not at the face?—Not at the face. And lam of the opinion, as a practical miner, that a miner can do as much in seven hours as in eight. That is my firm opinion. 429. In a quartz-mine?—Yes. 430. Hon. Mr. McGoivan.] Was it in the North or the South that you worked in a quartzmine ?—ln the South Island. 431. Did you ever work on a specimen lode in a quartz-mine ?—No.

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APPENDIX.

.ABSTRACTS OF COMMUNICATIONS RECEIVED BY, AND EVIDENCE TENDERED IN WRITING TO, THE CHAIRMAN OP THE GOLDFIELDS AND MINES COMMITTEE IN REFERENCE TO THE QUESTION OF THE PROPOSED AMENDMENT OF THE HOURS OF LABOUR IN MINES.

Copy of Telegeam sent by the Chairman of the Goldfields and Mines Committee, Wellington. The Goldfields and Mines Committee of the House of Representatives is taking evidence on the Mining Act Amendment Bill and Coal-mines Act Amendment Bill regarding amending clause 5 of " Mining Act, 1901," by deleting the words " exclusive of meal-times " from that clause. If you desire to tender any evidence on the subject prior to the Ist August the Committee will be prepared to receive it. ________ 17th July, 1902.

From James Caeruthers, Mine-manager. __ st j u j v 1902. The proposed amendment to the Coal-mines Act will add considerably to the cost of the coal, and should be strongly protested against. The amendments made last session prevent miners from being underground more than eight hours, exclusive of meal-times —that is, eight hours and a half. We have thus to pay the men for walking from the tunnel-mouth, or shaft, to the workingface and back again. The proposed amendment would require them to be paid for meal-hours. Assuming eight hours from bank to bank to be law, it would pan out thus: It takes about twenty minutes to lower all the men down the shaft, and allowing ten minutes as an average for the miners to reach the face, that is half an hour night and morning lost in getting the men to and from their work. One half-hour is generally allowed for dinner, but this allowance is generally exceeded, especially by the pieceworkers, so that one may safely calculate on forty minutes being occupied at meals ; this leaves only six hours and twenty minutes at the face, and allows nothing for " smokes " or " spells." Less than a year ago eight hours constituted a day's work ; last year amendments reduced it to seven hours, a reduction of 12-| per cent. If this year's proposal is carried it will reduce it another 10 per cent., and our output will be reduced accordingly without any decrease in the oncost, as the same number of day-men will be needed both above and below. This item alone would cost us nearly £200 a year, besides bringing down the miners' wages equal to 3d. per ton reduction. This last item might not affect us for a time if we were working under an award, but it is certain we would be asked to increase the rates, to at least that amount, the very first opportunity. The alteration would put not less than 6d. or 7d. per ton on the present cost of getting the coal. This bank-to-bank system is hardly a fair one, as in the case of a coal-owner having to sink a deep shaft, or put in a long drive, to get the coal he has not only to incur the heavy initial expense, but he is taxed as long as he works the place by having to pay his workmen while travelling over it. It would be much more just if they fixed the hours to be worked at the face, the same as any workshop or factory. This year's amendments, added to the amendments of last year, reduces the coal-man's working-hours by one-fourth, and as they insist on getting the same wages (or a little more) it increases the cost of getting the coal in the same ratio. Ido not think the coal trade can stand it; we cannot at present selling-rates.

From the New Zealand Ceown Mines Company (Limited), Karangahake. Auckland, 21st July, 1902. Re amendment of clause (1) of section 5 of "The Mining Act Amendment Act, 1901": I understand from your telegram of the 17th instant re this clause that the Goldfields Committee has under consideration the words " exclusive of meal-times," and that the clause referred to in your telegram will read, after these words are removed, " Subject to the provisions of the Act, a miner shall not be employed underground for a longer period in any day than eight hours." The Mining Act appears in some measure to be subordinate to the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act, for under an award given by Mr. Justice Cooper, in Auckland, on the 4th October last year, we find, under " Hours of Labour," " That the week's work for all men employed in and about the mine other than surface labourers shall consist of forty-six hours for men working day shift and afternoon shift, and forty-seven hours for men working night shift, including the customary allowance for crib-time. Work to commence at 1 a.m. on Monday, and cease at 8 p.m. on Saturday. Six shifts per week." Therefore, whether the words " exclusive of meal-times" are eliminated from the Mining Act or not the position on the goldfields will not be affected thereby so long as the award remains in force. The average actual and legal number of hours per week that a miner can remain underground is forty-six hours and a half, and the average number of hours per week he can work, allowing one hour per day for crib, is forty and a half, or six hours and three-quarters per day. In other words, he works 15f per cent, less time than the ordinary surface labourer, and earns per hour, based upon a minimum wage of Bs. per day, about Is. 2Jd. Our annual net profits over a period of several years (saying nothing for the lean years that preceded the profit-earning period) have been 5 per cent, on a capital of £200,000, and, as you are no doubt aware, every year lessens the value of a mine by the value of the bullion recovered from it. Therefore a provision for amortisement of the large sum invested should be made; but the very low-grade ore we have to mine and treat, together with high rate of wages, short hours of labour, gold duty, rents, and other assessments, will not allow of any sum being set aside for this purpose. The sum required to be ' invested annually at 3 per cent, compound interest to recoup the capital invested in the Crown Mine at the end of ten years is £17,446.

APPENDIX.]

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In South Africa (according to the papers) the Government has made an assessment of 10 per cent, on the net profits earned by mining companies there, and also allows them to make an annual provision for the amortisement or redemption of the capital invested. Here in New Zealand the Crown Company is paying in gold duty and other assessments over 20 per cent, on our net profits : this very heavy and unfair assessment prevents the company from making any provision for the recouping of capital over a given period of time. The effect of such heavy assessments and labour restriction is now being felt, and in a year's time will be more so. What has come about, and is coming, was evidently seen by Mr. Justice Cooper, who, in giving his reasons for the award (as a result of his inquiry into the mining dispute), said, in speaking for the assessors and himself, " We are satisfied that the gold-mining industry in this industrial district is, notwithstanding an increased output of gold from the Waihi Mine, in a languishing and depressed condition." This opinion could not have been arrived at hastily, because the learned Judge had ample time of going thoroughly into the question. His inquiry was not confined to any particular section of the goldfields : he travelled over every part where mining operations were being conducted, and after a most searching investigation he and his assessors came to the conclusion that the mining industry was in a languishing and depressed condition; and now in face of this opinion, supported by the stopping of many mines and curtailment of operations in others, we find the Goldfields Committee at Wellington considering the question of deleting some words from the Mining Act for the lessening of the hours of labour, and the raising of wages a considerable percentage in a dying industry.

From the New Zealand Coal and Oil Company (Limited). Kaitangata, 22nd July, 1902. Speaking as a colliery-manager, I think the hours worked by the miners under the Act of 1901 are short enough, and compare favourably with the hours worked by operatives in other occupations not more healthy, and in some much less healthy, than coal-mining. It is a popular fallacy that coal-mining is a most unhealthy as well as a most dangerous calling. The vital statistics of Great Britain prove that the mortality of coal-miners from all causes, accidents included, is far lower than the average of all males between the ages of twenty-five and sixty-five years ; and, as far as my own observations have gone in New Zealand during the past twelve years, I should say, omitting the Brunner disaster, the same would hold for coal-miners in this colony. Mr. James Barrowman, mining engineer, in a most able and interesting paper on the subject of " Mining Mortality," read before the Mining Institute of Scotland in 1898, gives some interesting compara-tive-mortality tables, extracts from two of which I append to this letter. After dealing exhaustively with the subject, Mr. Barrowman concludes his paper in the following words : " The conclusion that these, the latest reports of the Registrars-General, lead to, therefore, is that, while the coalminer is liable to accident in a greater degree than most other workmen, the occupation is a particularly healthy one, and that as regards mortality from all causes, even including accident, the miner is more favourably situated than the bulk of his fellow-men." The paper referred to appears in Vol. xiv., page 484, of the " Transactions of the Institution of Mining Engineers." The effect of shortening the hours of labour at the face from eight to seven has been to increase the cost of production by about one-seventh (14 per cent, nearly), as the same rates have been paid throughout for the shorter period of work. The effect of the proposed change—eight hours bank to bank, inclusive of meal-time —would be to reduce the hours of labour at the face here (Kaitangata) to six and a half, which would mean a further increase of cost of production of about one-thirteenth (nearly 8 per cent.). These increased costs, in my opinion, should not affect local competition very much, as all collieries in New Zealand would be on the same footing with regard to the hours of labour ; but, as none of the coal-mines in New Zealand, so far as I am aware, are making such profits that they can bear these increased costs without increasing the price of the coal, it must ultimately be the consumer who would have to bear the burden of the increased cost of production. Further increases in the price of local coal would also probably lead to the importation of larger quantities of New South Wales coal. Comparative Mortality of Males, Twenty-five to Sixty-five Years of Age, in Different Occupations from all Causes for the Years 1890-92, all Males being taken at 1,000. England and Wales. Unoccupied males ... ... ... 2,215 Occupied males ... ... ... 953 File-maker ... ... ... 1,810 Coal-miner ... ... ... 925 Lead-worker ... ... ... 1,783 Baker ... ... ... ... 920 Earthenware-manufacturer , . ... 1,706 Shoemaker ... ... ... 920 Hawker ... ... ... ... 1,652 Clerk ... ... ... ... 915 Publican ... ... ... ... 1,642 Blacksmith ... ... ... 914 Tin-miner... ... ... ... 1,409 Fisherman ... ... ... 845 Manufacturing chemist ... ... 1,392 Railway guard, porter,pointsman ... 825 Quarryman ... ... .. 1,176 Barrister ... ... ... ... 821 Musician ... ... ... ... 1,214 Carpenter... ... ... ... 783 Plumber ... ... ... ... 1,120 Railway-engine driver ... ... 810 Printer ... ... ... ... 1,096 Artist, sculptor ... ... ... 778 Butcher ... ... ... ... 1,096 Ironstone-miner ... ... ... 774 Law clerk... ... ... ... 1,070 Domestic servant ... ... ... 757 Engineer and boilermaker ... ... 1,070 Brickmaker .... ... ... 741 Draper ... ... ... ... 1,014 Grocer ... ... ... ■•• 664 Mason ... ... ... ... 1,001 Farm labourer ... ... ... 632 All males... ... ... ... 1,000 Schoolmaster ... .... ... 604 Wool-manufacturer ... ... 991 Farmer ... ... ... ... 563 Physician ... ... ... ... 966 Gardener ... ... ... ... 553 Commercial traveller ... ... 961 Clergyman ... ... ... 533

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[APPENDIX.

Scotland. Publican ... ... ... ... 2,308 j Printer ... ... ... ... 988 Hawker ... ... ... ... 1,839 Coal and shale miner ... . 973 Dyer, bleacher ... ... ... 1,775 Commercial traveller ... ... 964 Ironstone-miner ... ... ... 1,664 Cabinetmaker ... ... ... 958 Mason ... ... ... ... 1,441 Blacksmith ... ... ... 950 Dock labourer ... ... ... 1,385 Plumber ... ... ... ... 908 Cabman ... ... ... ... 1,271 Grocer ... ... ... ... 907 General labourer ... ... ... 1,218 Solicitor ... ... ... ... 901 Earthenware-manufacturer ... ... 1,213 Quarryman ... ... ... 889 Shoemaker ... ... ... 1,201 Draper ... .. ... ... 872 Law clerk ... ... ... 1,176 Joiner ... ... ... ... 848 Carter, vanman ... ... ... 1,157 Railway porter ... ... ... 818 Painter, glazier ... ... ... 1,116 Cotton-manufacturer ... ... 783 Physician ... ... ... 1,109 Fisherman ... ... ... 770 Butcher ... ... ... ... 1,098 Schoolmaster ... ... ... 649 Tailor ... ... ... ... 1,091 Gardener ... ... .. ... 581 Jute-manufacturer ... ... ... 1,091 Clergyman ... ... ... 581 Slater ... ... ... ... 1,053 Agricultural labourer ... ... 532 Commercial clerk ... ... ... 1,005 Farmer ... ... ... ... 529 Baker ... ... ... ... 1, 000 Railway-engine driver ... ... 481 All males... ... ... ... 1,000

From the Thames Miners' Union. We agree with the first portion of Mr. Guinness's amendment re striking out the words " exclusive of meal-times" in clause 5 of the proposed amendment of 1901, as this would agree with the award of the Arbitration Court, which provides for eight hours per day inclusive of meal-time; but we beg to point out that there is also a provision in the awards for a reduction of these hours on Saturday to six, making the week's work forty-six hours. The words "exclusive of meal-times " would be unworkable, as it would mean that the men would require to work the eight hours at a stretch without any meal at all, seeing that when a mine is in full work it is worked continuously for three eight-hour shifts in the twenty-four hours. The latter part of Mr. Guinness's amendment is, we beg to point out, in contradiction to the awards of the Court, as Mr. Justice Cooper has ruled that the word "miner" includes all men working in or about a mine, with the exception of surface labourers only.

From Repeesentatives of Miners' Unions. Wellington, 30th July, 1902. We, the undersigned representatives of the various miners' unions, cordially concur with the proposed amendments of the Coal-mines and Mining Act Amendment, 1901, as provided in the Bills introduced by Mr. Guinness, now under the consideration of your Committee, for the following reasons, viz.:— (1.) The underground workers' employment is of a very laborious nature. (2.) The employment is very injurious to the health of the worker, caused through inhaling nitro-glycerine and powder-fumes, dust, and impure air. (3.) The causes that go to make impure air are many, and, in addition to reason (2), all mines are subject to black and white damp, effluvia arising from excretions, and decaying matter, such as timber, &c. (4.) The employment is also a severe strain on the health of the worker, because of the cramped and contracted positions a miner has to work in. (5.) A miner is also subject to rheumatics at an early age, caused through dampness, being often compelled to lay on his side, and also frequently in kneeling positions. Another cause being the change of temperature. (6.) The occupation is also a severe strain on the eyes through dust and dimness of light, more especially when safety-lamps are used. (7.) Ladder-climbing in quartz-mines, and steep inclines in coal-mines, is also very injurious to the worker, causing dilated heart, which is a common complaint among miners. (8.) The ingress and egress to working-places is, in many instances, more laborious and severe on the worker than the actual work at the face, caused through having to ascend steep inclines, ladders, low roadways, and having also to carry tools, &c. (9.) The amendments proposed are absolutely necessary, as we contend that a miner's work should be deemed to commence when he leaves the surface and end when he again reaches the surface, as while he is underground he is in the employment of the mine-owner, and subject to the orders of the mine-manager and deputies or shift-bosses, and compelled to observe the provisions of Mining Acts. (10.) It has been contended that the relief of shifts should take place at the faces, but this is unnecessary, as anything of a dangerous nature coming under the notice of a miner has to be reported to the person in subeharge or the manager of the mine (see section 43, " Coal-mines Act, 1891," and section 212, " Mining Act, 1898 "), whose duty it is to acquaint the relieving deputy or shift-boss of the matter, who takes precautions accordingly. (11.) It has never been the custom amongst miners to change shifts at the face, either in coalmines or quartz-mines, but usually at the chamber, brace, or level.

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APPENDIX.]

(12.) The recognised hours of surface labour all over the colony is eight hours per day, generally with a half-holiday concession on Saturdays, and the conditions are infinitely better as regards fresh air and sunshine than that of the miners. We would therefore urge upon you the necessity and justice of reducing the hours of labour for underground workers, taking into consideration the unhealthy and dangerous nature of the occupation. (13.) If the concession as asked for is conceded we contend that there will be no extra cost of production, as a miner cannot work constantly and energetically for a period of eight hours, but will be able to work more effectively for a shorter period, and produce as cheaply as if the longer hours obtained.

From the Blackball Miners' Union. This union tenders the following: That for persons employed underground, having to contend with impure air, caused by explosives, decayed timber, and the various gases found in mines generally, eight hours from bank to bank should constitute a day's work, seeing that with outside workmen eight hours is generally recognised as a day's work; and this union thinks it unfair to expect men employed underground to work more than eight hours from bank to bank.

From the Granity Ceeek Coal-Minees' Union. Granity, 22nd July, 1902. We beg to state that we are desirous of establishing eight hours from bank to bank as a day's work for miners. We point out the following reasons in support of our contentions. Miners hewing coal at contract rates only work eight hours from bank to bank. Considerable experience has proved it is long enough, and it is the present practice with them. The introduction of machinery necessitates a number of youths of tender years as machine-assistants, and, as those machines work principally at night, we consider eight hours a fair thing for them underground. Mines working three shifts are compelled to work eight-hour shifts, and we think it only fair that all mining should be on an equal footing. We do not wish that a mine only working two shifts of eight hours and a half each should have an advantage over the one that would employ more labour working at its fullest capacity. We also wish to point out that coal-mines extend rapidly, and the two premier mines in the colony, Millerton and Denniston, work near the surface, and it is a simple matter for them to make an opening to the surface, and declare it the mine-entrance, so it will be obvious that the companies will not suffer. It will also be a guarantee for workmen building homes that they will have ample time to get to those entrances by having only eight hours underground.

From the Coromandel Miners' Union. This union considers that the words " exclusive of meal-times " should be deleted from clause 5 of the Mining Act of 1901.

From the Grey Valley Union op Workers. Brunner, 25th July, 1902. It is the unanimous desire of the miners (both coal and quartz) that eight hours from bank to bank should constitute a day's work, and as evidence the Trades and Labour Council —a body that represents the whole of the West Coast miners, and is practically composed as such —has year after year since its very inception passed resolutions at each and every meeting praying for this measure to be placed on the statute-book. And it is no new thing, as it is in force in the greatest part of England. A " miner " should be defined to mean all people employed underground. This has always been accepted as a proper thing by the miners and managers alike until Judge Cooper gave a contrary interpretation some time ago, and from that date some collieries have paid their truckers' half an hour short per day, as they hold they have not worked a full day in eight hours. That arrangement seems so absurd to this union that they think any person will see the force of your proposed alteration when the matter is explained.

From J. P. Millington, Surgeon, Blackball. I beg to report that an unusual amount of sickness has occurred in the pit here of late. Having acted as medical officer to coal-pits at Home in England, I have had some experience in these matters. I have tested the air from several parts of the pit and the water running through, and find both noxious. In fact, at present no wound, however slight, which has been caused in the pit will heal in an ordinary way. Personally, I have been obliged to go into the pit on several occasions, and have felt the effects, which were not always transitory, of the gases and foul air. There is a great deal of illness amongst the miners which is peculiar to those workers, and only amongst those working in the pit. I feel sure that it is caused by their dangerous surroundings and bad air in this pit. At present I have five of the miners laid up. As a rule, I have to visit at least half a dozen per week ill, with a possibility, or even probability, that the air in the pit is a strong factor in their illness.

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APPENDIX.

From the Hikueangi Coal Company. Understanding that a proposal is being made to alter the Coal-mines Act re limiting hours of labour to eight from surface to surface, including crib-time, the Hikurangi Coal Company protests most strongly against the same, which, if adopted, would virtually mean seven hours'.work daily. The cost of production would be increased, and the men would doubtless also demand higher payrates to compensate for lesser time worked. The result would be a rise in the price of coal, and a possible decrease in the output on account of competition with imported article. Kindly do your utmost to prevent proposed alteration from becoming law.

From the Blackball Coal Company (Limited). 29th July, 1902. As the Coal-mines Act now reads it means that our miners' time starts the moment they enter the mine-mouth. It takes them twenty-five minutes to reach their respective places and the same time to return at conclusion of shift. This means that they only work seven hours. If the halfhour for meal-time is included in the eight hours the actual time worked is only six hours and a half, and if this applies to all underground labourers it would mean a loss to my company of £25 per week. I therefore, on behalf of my company, strongly protest against deleting the words " exclusive of meal-times " from clause 5 of the Mining Act of 1901. My company has been working the mine for the past nine years endeavouring to make a dividend for its shareholders, who have never received a penny, though we have kept the miners going all the same; and now, adding to the former labour demands, wish to make a further sethack of some £1,300 per annum. This will have to be borne by the company, as it cannot be put on to the price of coal, seeing that it is regulated by the price at which Newcastle coal can be laid down in this colony. It must be remembered that Australian miners are paid on the winning of saleable coal, whereas in this colony they are paid for everything, whether slack, dross, or otherwise, and, in addition, our miners are paid eight hours' wages for only seven hours' work. The tendency of increased labour legislation is simply to kill the industry and let in the foreign element.

From the Taupiei Coal-mines Company (Limited), Auckland. This company strongly protests against the proposed alteration of the Coal-mines Act by limiting the hours of labour to eight from bank to bank, inclusive of crib-time. Such an amendment would mean to this company a reduction of one-fifteenth of the working-hours, as miners now work seven hours and a half, exclusive of erib-time. Assuming the labour conditions in respect of wages continued as at present, the enhanced cost of production would be 7 per cent. At present prices this would prove ruinous to the company ; but, in addition, the earnings of miners working seven hours instead of seven and a half would be proportionately reduced, and they would demand an. advanced hewing-rate as compensation. Apart from such demand, if the proposed alteration becomes law the company will have no alternative but to increase the price of coal, but at increased rate the output would be largely diminished, as the company would be unable to compete against the imported article, unless a heavy duty was imposed on such. Trust the Committee will report against alteration in the law, as the effects on this company would be disastrous.

From the Ngungueu Coal Company, Auckland. The proposed alteration in the Coal-mines Act fixing the hours of labour at eight from bank to bank, including crib-time, would so seriously affect the working of the Ngunguru Company's mine that it would certainly have to close down. Our profit is small. We cannot advance the price of our coal, as we have to compete with the imported article, so if the State desires to ruin the company by passing such legislation they will effect that result. My directors trust such unreasonable and ruinous legislation will not be enacted. For the workers' interest it should not. There is no complaint from miners.

From the New Zealand Mines Teust (Limited). Auckland, 30th July, 1902. In addition to the copies of letters issued to the Mines Committee by the Mine-owners' Association giving certain arguments against proposed amendments, I would like to point out still further that the proposed clause making miners' shifts of eight hours count from bank to bank is really diametrically opposed to the conclusion arrived at by the Arbitration Court after a long and critical examination of the position of the mining industry in the North Island. You will remember that the general tenor of the reasons of the Court for not granting any rise in wages was because the industry could not stand it. Last year, practically immediately after the arbitration award, the bank-to-bank proposal was brought forward in the House and rejected, some regard, I presume, being given to the fact that the mines could not pay the increased cost. I might mention that under the bank-to-bank system nearly one hour per shift would be lost in a big mine at every change of shift, because in going underground, say, at 8 o'clock, no man would start to go down till the clock struck, and in sending down two hundred and fifty or three hundred men fully half an hour would be occupied. At the end of the shift every man would require to be out by 4 o'clock, so that each miner would throw down his tools at half-past 3 to be on hand at the chambers and in readiness to be sent up before 4 o'clock. This sort of thing three times per day occupies three hours out of twenty-four, or 12-J- per cent, of the whole working-time, during which all driving, ore-breaking, or ore-winding is absolutely suspended.

APPENDIX.]

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Still further, there is the waste incidental to sending down the cages full of men when they go on shift, running up empty for the next lot, and vice versd at the change of shift, going up full of men and down empty. According to the present arbitration award men are expected to work fortysix hours per week, minus three hours for crib, leaving nominally forty-three hours' work. If from this a further hour per day, or six hours per week, is deducted for changing shifts, the net working-hours are reduced to thirty-seven, and when other allowances are made for time for smoke to clear away, misfires, &c, it is not too much to say that the actual working-hours would not average five petday. Reverting to the conclusion of the Arbitration Court concerning the position of the mining industry, I regret very much to say that the evidence of occurrences during the past year absolutely supports the Court's verdict, for several mines have been forced to suspend operations, others to greatly reduce expenditure ; and, though I am very sorry to say it, I know that the end of the list of suspensions and reductions is not yet. The present agitation and the proposed additional disabilities only add to the trouble by making it increasingly difficult to carry on economical mining operations. In a general way the foregoing is applicable also to the proposed amendment of section 86 of " The Mining ..\ct, 1898," whereby the Miners' Union urges that all claims or areas, no matter how small, held by claim-owners shall be manned separately. I sincerely hope that you will resist the proposed amendments and lend your assistance towards getting finality to these constant changes in the law.

From the Mine-ownees' Association, Auckland. 23rd July, 1902. In reply to your telegram of 17th July regarding proposed'amendment of "Mining Act, 1901," clause 5, subsection (1), we have considered the matter and submit that no amendment at all is called for; but, if a change has to take place, we believe that the utmost concession that should be made is contained in the following suggested amendment of the existing clause :— Proposed Clause. —Section 5, (1) : Subject to the provisions of the Act, a miner shall not be employed underground for a longer period in any day than eight hours, exclusive of not exceeding fifteen minutes to enable men to change shift at the face, as required by section two hundred and twelve, subsection three, " Mining Act, 1898." In the miners' interests the necessity for changing shifts at the face has always been recognised, as it is obvious that men coining off shift cannot be certain of meeting their relieving mates at any other place. Even under existing regulations it is difficult enough to get men to warn relieving shifts of possible danger, as witness the two fatal accidents in Silverton and Waihi Mines, where the juries' verdicts laid the blame of the accidents on the outgoing shifts. The effect of amending the clause as your Committee proposes would be that a few minutes' overtime might be claimed each day for the absolutely necessary operation of changing shift at the face in order to protect the men. You can see how unworkable such a plan would be, not to mention the frivolous and vexatious nature of these petty claims. We hope that your Committee will recommend that no alteration at all should be made.

From the Otago Employees' Association. 11th July, 1902. It has been reported recently in the newspapers that in the Coal-mines Act Amendment Bill, introduced by Mr. Guinness, the eight hours from bank to bank are made to include the meal-time. I am directed by the Executive of the Otago Employers' Association to draw attention to this clause, which they think inequitable. In the first place, the men are working under awards by which the hours and wages are determined. If the proposed amendment becomes law one-fifteenth less work will be given for the same wages, for, of course, unless provision is made by Parliament to meet the case, the same wages will have to be paid as are now paid under present circumstances. In the second place, it means a serious loss to the various companies, for it practically means the reduction of their output to the extent of one-fifteenth— i.e., over 6 per cent, per annum. Where the company has a large output it will mean a very large sum of money annually lost to the shareholders, while the cost of production and maintenance will remain the same. In the third place, if this becomes law it will mean that one-eighth has been added to the cost and taken from the companies in two sessions, as half an hour has already been taken by the bank-to-bank clause. We trust that a measure which would press so severely on coal-owners will not be allowed to become law without the most earnest consideration being given to its provisions.

INDUSTRIAL AGREEMENT. This agreement, made in pursuance of " The Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act, 1900," this 23rd day of January, 1902, between the Consolidated Goldfields of New Zealand (Limited), the Progress Mines of New Zealand (Limited), the Welcome Gold-mining Company (Limited), and New Inkerman Mines (Limited), (which four companies are all duly incorporated in England under the Imperial Companies Acts, and carrying on business at or near Reefton, in the County of Inangahua and Colony of New Zealand, as mining companies), the Keep-it-Dark Quartz-mining Company (Limited) and Big River Gold-mining Company (Limited), (which two last-named companies are duly incorporated in the said colony and carrying on mining operations at or near Reefton afore-

I.—4a.

[appendix.

said), (all of which said companies are hereinafter referred to as " the Companies "), of the one part; and the Inangahua Miners' Industrial Union of Workers, an industrial union duly incorporated and having its registered office at Reefton aforesaid (hereinafter referred to as " the Workers' Union "), of the other part, whereby it is agreed by and between the said parties hereto as follows:— 1. The following shall be the minimum rate of wages which shall be paid by the companies respectively to the persons employed by such companies respectively in the capacities undermentioned—that is to say : — s. d. (1.) Mine shift-bosses per shift ... 11 8 (2.) Timber-men on surface „ ... 11 8 (3.) Men employed on rise, winze, or shaft „ ... 10 0 (4.) Miners „ ... 9 6 (5.) Winders requiring Government certificates „ ... 11 8 (6.) Engine-drivers not requiring winders'certificate „ ... 10 0 (7.) General blacksmiths „ ... 13 4 (8.) Blacksmiths ordinarily employed in sharpening tools „ ... 11 8 (9.) Blacksmiths' assistants, strikers „ ... 8 0 (10.) Brace-men „ ... 9 0 (11.) Chamber-men „ ... 10 0 (12.) Truckers „ ... 8 0 (13.) Battery-feeders „ ... 8 0 (14.) Men working rock-breaker „ ... 8 0 (15.) Men in charge of aerial „ ... 11 8 (16.) Brakeman of aerial . „ ... 10 0 (17.) Men employed filling aerial „ ... 9 0 (18.) Men employed tipping aerial „ ... 8 0 (19.) Men in charge of shift at batteries „ ... 10 0 (20.) Men working vanners „ ... 8 0 (21.) Men working at slimes-tables „ ... 8 0 (22.) Men working at chlorination-works roasters „ ... 9 6 (23.) Men working in chlorination-works other than roasters „ ... 8 6 (24.) Men working at cyanide „ ... 9 0 (25.) Men in charge of rock-drills „ ... 10 6 (26.) Men working at rock-drills, not in charge „ ... 9 6 (27.) Men in charge of rock-drills in rise „ ... 11 0 (28.) Men working rock-drills in rise, not in charge „ ... 10 0 (29.) Men exclusively employed in filling from rock-drills „. ... 9 0 (30.) Men timbering in mine „ ... 9 6 (31.) Firemen „ ... 10 6 (32.) Carpenters „ ... 11 8 (33.) Pick-and-shovel labour „ ... 9 0 (34.) Ordinary surface labour, other than pick-and-shovel „ ... 8 0 2. Men taken from the face in the mine to do temporary work on the surface, but not exceeding two successive shifts, shall be paid the same rate as if at the face, and the same hours of labour shall be observed. 3. Youths under twenty-one years of age may be employed as blacksmiths' strikers, truckers, battery-feeders, tipping the aerial, working vanners, working at slimes-tables, working at cyanide, and at any other work which may at any time and from time to time be agreed upon in writing between any of the Companies and the Workers' Union, at the following rates of wages, that is to say—For the first year not less than ss. for each working-day of eight hours, with an increase at the end of each year of not less than Is. per day until such youth reaches the minimum wage of the branch of employment in which he is employed. Winding-men. 4. When the shaft exceeds a depth of 250 ft., and there is machinery, the Company shall at all times hoist the men ; provided that any Company may from time to time agree in writing with the Workers' Union that this clause shall be suspended with respect to any mine or portion of a mine mentioned in such agreement, for the period therein specified, and in such case this provision shall cease to be operative to the extent and for the period mentioned in such agreement. Contracts. 5. In all cases in which tenders are called for work written specifications shall be provided to work by, and no Company shall enter into any contract for the performance of work in or about a mine without making it a binding stipulation of such contract that the contractor shall pay to the wages-men employed by him the minimum rate of wages provided by this agreement. Holidays. 6. The Christmas holdays shall be from the 24th of December to the Ist of January, both days inclusive; but if New Year's day fall upon a Sunday then the Monday following shall be observed as a holiday also. The birthday of the reigning Sovereign and Labour Day shall also be holidays : Provided that this clause shall not apply to batteries or reduction-works; but it shall be incumbent upon each Company to allow to each man employed in batteries or reduction-works holidays of

APPENDIX.]

I.—4a.

equal duration at some other convenient time without thereby affecting the employment of any such man. This proviso shall also apply to youths when employed in batteries or reduction-works. 7. No work shall be done on Sundays or any of the holidays above mentioned except in batteries or reduction-works and except work which is of absolute necessity. Monday and Saturday Shifts. 8. The night shift following the Sunday shall go on at 1 a.m. on Monday morning and shall' cease work at 8 a.m. The day shift on Saturday shall go on at 8 a.m. and shall cease at 2 p.m. The afternoon shift, on Saturday shall go on at 2 p.m. and shall cease work at 8 p.m. Hours of Labour. 9. Except as mentioned in the last clause, the hours of work shall be eight hours at the face in each shift, in which eight hours the usual allowance shall be made for crib-time. Matters not provided for. 10. Any matter not provided for in this agreement may be settled by agreement between the Company concerned and the committee of the Workers' Union. Preference of Unionists. 11. So long as the rules of the Workers' Union permit any person of good character and sober habits now employed as a miner in this industrial district, and any other person now residing or who may hereafter reside in this industrial district, and who is of good character and sober habits, and who is a competent miner, to become a member of such union upon payment of an entrance fee not exceeding 55., and of subsequent contributions, whether payable weekly or not, not exceeding 6d. per week, upon a written application of the person so desiring to join the Workers' Union, without ballot or other election, and shall give notice of such amendment, with a copy thereof, to each of the Companies, then and in such case and thereafter each of the Companies shall employ members of the Workers' Union in preference to non-members, provided that there are members of the Workers' Union equally qualified with non-members to perform the particular work required to be done, and ready and willing to undertake it : Provided that this clause shall not interfere with engagements now subsisting between any Company and non-unionists, but that such Company may continue to employ any miner or other person now actually employed by such Company as heretofore although such miner or other person may not be a member of the Workers' Union, and although such miner or other person may, from want of work in the mine or otherwise, be from time to time not actually employed in the mine. 12. No Company shall discriminate against members of the Workers' Union, and no Company shall, in the employment or dismissal of men or in the conduct of the mine, do anything for the purpose of injuring the Workers' Union, whether directly or indirectly. 13. When members of the Workers' Union and non-members are employed together there shall be no distinction between members and non members, and both shall work together in harmony, and shall receive equal pay for equal Work. 14. The Workers' Union shall keep in some convenient place in Reefton a book to be called " the employment-book," wherein shall be entered the names and exact addresses of all members of the Workers' Union for the time being out of employment and desirous of obtaining employment, with a description of the branch of mining gmployment in which each such person claims to be proficient, and the names, addresses, and occupations of every Company or person by whom any such member of the Workers' Union has been employed during the preceding nine calendar months. Immediately upon any such member of the Workers' Union obtaining employment or ceasing to desire employment, a note thereof shall be entered in such book. The executive of the Workers' Union shall use their best endeavours to verify the entries contained in such book, and the Workers' Union shall be answerable as for a breach of this agreement in case any entry therein shall be wilfully false to the knowledge of the Workers' Union or in case the executive of such Union shall not have used reasonable endeavours to verify the same. Such book shall be open to each of the Companies and to the servants of each of them between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. on every workingday except Saturday, and on that day between 9 a.m. and noon. If the Workers' Union shall fail to keep the employment-book in manner provided by this clause, then and in such case, and so long as such failure shall continue, the Companies or any of them may employ any person or persons, whether a member of the Workers' Union or not, to perform the work required to be performed, notwithstanding the foregoing provisions. Notice shall be given by the Workers' Union to each Company in writing of the place where such employment-book is kept and of any change in such place. 15. This agreement shall be filed as an industrial agreement with the Clerk of the Westland Industrial District after execution, and shall remain in force for two years from the 21st day of January, 1902. In witness whereof the said parties hereto have executed these presents the day and yearfirst aforesaid. Consolidated Goldfields ob' New Zealand (Limited) (By its Attorneys, Ernest W. Spencer, S. L. P. Fees). Signed by the Consolidated Goldfields of New Zealand (Limited), by its Attorneys, Ernest William Spencer and Smith Laughton Pattrick Free, in the presence of—Henry S. Castle, Accountant, Reefton. 12—1. 4a.

I.—4a.

APPENDIX.

Peogeess Mines of New Zealand (Limited) (By its Attorneys, Ernest W. Spencer, S. L. P. Fees). Signed by the Progress Mines of New Zealand (Limited), by its Attorneys, Ernest William Spencer and Smith Laughton Pattrick Free, in the presence of—Henry S. Castle, Accountant Reefton. Welcome Gold-mining Company (Limited) (By its Attorneys, Ernest W. Spencer, S. L. P. Free). Signed by the Welcome Gold-mining Company (Limited), by its .attorneys, Ernest William Spencer and Smith Laughton Pattrick Free, in the presence of—Henry S. Castle, Accountant, Reefton. The Inkerman Mines (Limited) (By its Attorney, G. H. Boyd). Signed by the New Inkerman Mines (Limited), by its Attorney, George Henry Boyd, in the presence of—William .^uld. A. McKay, [Common seal of company.] Jas. Thoeburn, Directors. The common seal of the Keep-it-Dark Quartz-mining Company (Limited) was hereunto affixed by order of the Board of Directors in the presence of—W- Hindmarsh, Mining Agent, Reefton. Patrick Butler, [Common seal of company.] Henry S. Castle, Directors. The common seal of the Big River Gold-mining Company (Limited), was hereto affixed by order of the Board of Directors in the presence of—T. Hubert Lee, Manager, Big River Gold-mining Company (Limited), Reefton. Matthew Feehan, President. [Seal of Inangahua Miners' Henry Betts, 1.D.W., Reg. No. 82.] Secretary. Matthew .Absalom, Trustee. The seal of the Inangahua Miners' Industrial Union of Workers was hereunto affixed by order of the Committee of Management, and the signatures of Matthew Feehan, President; Henry Betts, Secretary; and Matthew Absalom, Trustee, were hereunto subscribed in the presence of —James Molloy, B. P. McMahon, William Campbell.

Approximate Cost of Paper.— Preparation, not given ; printing (1,:175 copies), £18 10s.

By Authority: John Mackay, Government Printer, Wellington.—l9o2. Price Is. 6d.\

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GOLDFIELDS AND MINES COMMITTEE: REPORT ON THE COAL-MINES ACT AMENDMENT BILL, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE., Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1902 Session I, I-04a

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