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1899. NEW ZEALAND.
NATIVE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: THE PROPOSED NATIVE LANDS SETTLEMENT AND ADMINISTRATION BILL (MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN IN CONNECTION WITH PETITIONS RELATING TO). (Mr. R.M. HOUSTON, CHAIRMAN.) [In continuation of I.-3a., 1898.]
Brought up on the 3rd October and ordered to be printed.
EEPOET. The Committee are of opinion these petitions, together with the evidence taken in connection with the subject-matter thereof, should be referred to the Government with the recommendation that legislation be introduced this session to, as nearly as possible, meet the views of the Natives. The Committee also recommend that all the evidence taken be printed. 3rd October, 1899.
Petition No. 403.—Presented by Mr. Kaihau. To the Hon. the Speaker and Members of the House of Eepresentatives in Parliament assembled. The petition of the undersigned Maoris humbly showeth: — 1. That your petitioners are aboriginal natives of New Zealand, who have been selected by the hapus and tribes of the Western Maori District as delegates to lay before you the serious grievances and troubles under which the Native race suffer in consequence of the existing Nativeland laws. 2. That these tribes are suffering great hardship in consequence of the operation of the Native Land Court and the present Native-land laws. 3. That, being desirous of saving the remnant of our lands for the use and benefit of our race, the tribes desire that your honourable House will take steps to pass laws to prevent the further purchase of Native lands. 4. That provisions be made for the leasing of such lands, as we have no desire that they should remain unsettled and prevent the development of the colony, to the detriment of both races. Your petitioners therefore humbly pray : — (1.) That all sales of Native lands be stopped. (2.) We further pray that in any proposed measures provisions be made for the election by the Natives of the members of a Native Council, and that the Council shall be authorised to manage and deal with their lands. (3.) That reserves be granted by the Crown to landless Natives who have been rendered landless either by confiscation or the purchase of their land by the Crown. (4.) That "The Native Land Court Act, 1894," be amended, and the Native Land Court abolished. (5.) There being an urgent necessity for the passing of legislation such as that prayed for before the present Parliament expires, your petitioners humbly pray that your honourable House will in its wisdom grant the relief desired, and, as in duty bound, will ever pray. Tupu Taingakawa and Another. I—l. 3a.
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Petition No. 423.—Presented by Mr. Wi Peee. To the Hon. the Speaker and Members of the House of Eepresentatives of the Colony of New Zealand in Parliament assembled. The petition of the Maoris humbly showeth :— 1. That, being desirous of saving the remnant of our lands for the use and benefit of our race, we pray your honourable House will take steps to pass laws to the further purcnase of Native lands. 2. That provision be made for the leasing of such lands, as we have no desire that they should remain unsettled and prevent the development of the colony, to the detriment of both races. 3. We further pray that in any proposed measures provision be made for a fair representation of our race on any Board to be appointed to administer our lands; and that your honourable House will make such laws optional, so that those who may differ from the prayer of the petition may not be prejudiced. There being an urgent necessity for the passing of legislation such as that prayed for before the present Parliament expires, your petitioners humbly pray that your honourable House will in its wisdom grant the relief desired, and, as in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray. , Tamahau Mahupuku and 2 Others.
Petition No. 114.—Presented by Mr. Wi Peeb. To the Hon. the Speaker and Members of the House of Bepresentatives: Greetings to you. This is a petition from us to your Assembly in regard the Board Bill and the amendments thereto made by the Maori Committee which met at Papawai in the year 1898. That the said Board Bill be passed into law and made to apply to the east and west coasts of the North Island to be a law for our district. And that our Committee will be despatched thither [to Wellington] to co-operate with your Committee in making any amendments [which may be deemed necessary] to the said Board Bill. Sufficient: Let the prayer of your petitioners be given effect to. Enoka te Taitjsa and 36 Others.
The following petitions are similar to No. 114 above, except they only ask that the Board Bill apply to the East Coast: — No. 115. Tutanuku Tume and 72 others. No. 397. Hoera Katipo and 69 others. No. 116. Karaitiana Wirihana and 84 others. No. 411. Hone Paerata and 158 others. No. 168. H. T. Whatahoro. No. 412. Eru te Whana and 109 others. No. 169. Tamahau Mahupuku and 89 others. No. 413. Wiremu Potae and 106 others. No. 170. Hautahi Aporo aud 110 others. No. 414. Moana Tautau and 56 others. No. 321. Apirana Tukotahi and 60 others. No 439. Heta Matua and 10 others. No. 322. Aperabama te Kume and 73 others. No. 440. Eetireti Tapihana and 111 others. No. 390. Heta Hakiwai and 127 others. No. 455. Paku Maki and 288 others. No. 391. Wiremu Pikai and 58 others. No. 456. Hare Matenga and 61 others. No. 392. Tauha Nikora and 11 others. No. 467. Hori Puru and 336 others. No. 396. Ihaka Whanga and 64 others.
Feiday, 15th Septembee, 1899. petition of tupu taingakawa and te eawhiti. Mr. H. Kaihau examined. 1. The Chairman.] You presented one of these petitions, Mr. Kaihau : have you anything to say in reference to the subject yourself, or do you wish to call any witnesses?— Yes, I have something to say. 2. Very well, then, the Committee will hear you now?— This petition is the petition of the West Coast Maoris. This is a petition setting forth the views they arrived at before they sent me down here to introduce a Bill that was laid before the House in the year 1897. 3. Captain Bussell.] Will you ask him what West Coast Maoris he means ?—The tribes and hapus resident on the west coast of this Island—what is known as the Western Maori District. This petition shortly expresses the wishes of the ten thousand people who petitioned in opposition to the proposed Board Bill of last session. Therefore, in consideration of all the disabilities and grievances under which they claim to have struggled up to the present time, they have decided that it is necessary they should petition the House and request that necessary legislation be introduced and passed this session—some such legislation as will meet with the approval of the House. That is why this petition prays that the grounds set forth therein may be earnestly and carefully inquired into and considered. It is asked that a Maori Council be constituted to controland manage their lands, leases, and so forth, under such provisions as
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should be agreed to by the Parliament. As the Maoris, tribes, and hapus claim that they suffer an injury at the hands of the Native Land Courts, they pray that the Native Land Court be abolished. Then, with regard to that part of the petition which requests that the House will take steps to prevent the further purchase of Native lands, this Committee no doubt realises the vast amount of injury that is done to the Natives under the present existing landpurchase system ; and we also consider that, when one realises what a very small balance of land remains in the possession of Maori owners now, it is further necessary that the Government should set apart reserves out of Crown land in order to provide land for landless Maoris. But I do not think that perhaps there is any necessity for me to delay the Committee by going into any lengthy explanation with regard to these matters. The House and this Committee have had the matters set forth in the petition so often explained to them that they must understand the petition thoroughly well; and if the Government have any real desire to meet the wishes of the two sections of the Maori people, and pass such legislation as will meet with the approval of the House, then we will be quite willing and agreeable that such a measure should be discussed. I would point out that this petition expresses the wishes of the ten thousand people who are in support of the Maori Council Bill, and what we wish is, and what we hope to see is, that Bill dealt with, and such parts of it as may be found to be suitable to the necessities of the present occasion shall be combined with whatever other suggestions may be drawn up, so as to bring down a short measure that will meet the present case. That is why this petition is being presented now, with a view to obtaining a sort of combination of the provisions contained in both the Maori Council Bill and the Government Native Land Board Bill. Of course, I may say to the Committee that if the Government does not intend to give any consideration to the wishes of the ten thousand people who petitioned last year in support of the Maori Council Bill and against the passing of the Land Board Bill—if the Government does not propose to in any way consider the wishes of those ten thousand inhabitants of the Western Maori District—then I say there is no object in our giving our assistance to any part of the Government Native Land Board Bill, because there is a very large and numerous section of the community—of the Maori people —who are not in accord with the Government idea as to the Native Land Board Bill. Mr. Heke, I fancy, may be able to explain to this Committee what are the views held by his people resident over the whole of the Northern Maori District. Therefore I say that I hope this Committee will look into the matter from all points of view, and will decide upon the course that they will follow, and report to the Government, requesting the House to bring in such a measure as will meet with the views of the Maori residents of the North Island. Ido not think that it is necessary for me to say more. One of the petitioners is present, and he will make a statement. 4. The Chairman.] Would it not be better if Mr. Kaihau would express his views on what he wants ? —Yes ; if the Government had made up their minds in the direction I suggest, I would do so. 5. The Committee would like to hear Mr. Kaihau's views first ? —Very well, then. First of all, appoint a Maori Council, so that they will be enabled to deal with their lands in such a manner as may seem to them to be best for the benefit of the Maori people. When they shall have satisfied the House that they are carrying out the provisions of the law with regard to this Runanga Council which we ask for, and the Maori Council having been granted—that is to say, the authority to constitute a Maori Council having been granted—then we must be given power to elect members to form that Council, such members to have power to manage and deal with all matters in regard to land questions affecting the people. Matters of social economy and the regulation of all matters; in fact, in connection with everything—money, crops, land negotiations, and transactions of every kind which affect the welfare of the people. 6. This Council to be composed entirely of Maori people?—l have no doubt that, if the House would see its way to agree that the Council should be composed of Maori members only, they would be found to be entirely competent to carry out the business of the Council. 7. I ask you, Mr. Kaihau, is that the wish ? —The majority of the members of the Runanga Council should be Maoris. It might be right that some European should be appointed by the Government or the House to instruct the Maori members ; I should have no objection to that. The Chairman, of course, knows that if I have to go exhaustively into all the particulars of matters affecting what we ask for—well, there is such a vast number of them that it would take a very long time. The question of surveys, for example: The Maori Council could control and conduct all matters with regard to the surveys that they might find it necessary to make with regard to the subdivision of their lands, and so forth, so as to do away with the trouble that at the present time exists as the result of the present survey system and Native Land Court system, and they should be given power to make orders empowering action to be taken in all such directions as they might see fit, always having regard to keeping within the laws of the colony; and to set up certain officers to deal with matters of registration and the administrative part of matters that would come under their control, and to enable this Council to make necessary reserves and set aside lands for each separate hapu and group of people, so as to prevent the possibility of their ever becoming " landless Natives." Under the existing order of things no such reserves are made—land is sold right out to the last acre. When the Crown purchases a block they do not offer to say, " Well, now we will make provision by setting anart a portion of that block for you." They purchase a block right out; they do not think of making any provision for the Maori owner. Now, this is a matter which makes the people feel very sore —that is to say, those Maoris who have a desire to see the Maori population of this country progress at the same rate that the European population is doing. The Chairman is aware that a petition such as this was presented to the House at the time that the Maori Council Constitution Bill was before the House. Although the Chairman has asked me to go into the matter, I do not think there is really any object in my going exhaustively into each little matter or detail, because, as I say, it is almost an inexhaustible subject; but when the Bill is gone into, then it will be a question to decide upon what points therein contained do not meet
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with the approval of the House, or what might be thought would not operate for the benefit of the Maori people. Then, of course, it would be quite right and proper that such portions of the Bill should be expunged, and something better—something more to the advantage of the people—inserted in the Bill. My principal desire is to see this matter settled this present session of Parliament, so that we may as speedily as possible get rid of all the burden of trouble, pain, and injustice that at the present time oppresses the Maori people. I have no doubt that if this Maori Council be granted during this session of Parliament this Committee will find as a direct result of the granting of the Runanga Council that very few matters will be referred to it for consideration. I anticipate that if a Maori Council is constituted there will be very few matters which it will not be competent for that Council to deal with. I should say that only criminal actions such as murders, for example, or matters of serious crime, should not be dealt with by the Council, but all matters referring to land, and any ordinary matters that might crop up, the Council would be quite competent to deal with. 8. And do away with the petitions ?—Well, it would not do away with them altogether, but would reduce the number very considerably. Of course, it will make the work of this Committee very much lighter, because it will have removed the cause that renders the petitions necessary. Of course, with regard to sales of land, I only say this: put a stop to them entirely—that is, the Crown land purchases. But if the Maori Council was satisfied itself as to the proper value which they may receive for a block of land which they propose to sell, why should they not have the same right to sell that land as any one else, if they consider it is for the benefit of the owners. I think I have placed the matter sufficiently plainly before the Committee now. When we come to deal with the Bill, and go into its various provisions, then the matter will be thoroughly explained and put before the Committee. I say what I propose should be done is this : let the Government formulate what they propose should be done, and then let each Maori member express the views and wishes of that particular district which he represents with regard to the matter —I mean when discussing the various clauses and sections of this Bill, and their relation to and the manner in which they would affect the various districts represented by the respective Maori members. I think that if we—the Maori members—have decided upon the course that should be taken and are borne out by our constituents—the people whom we represent here — all that remains for the House to do is to give effect to our desire ; and if the members of this House cannot see their way to agree to certain provisions that may be contained within the Bill, then it will be time to discuss and explain and perhaps vary and alter the provisions taken exception to. I think that is all I have to say. 9. Captain Busse/L] Mr. Kaihau said that he thought that the surveys ought torest with the Maori Council and they would deal with them and do away with the difficulty of surveys. What does he mean by that?— Well, what I mean is this : that there are certain Maori lands which the Maori owners are not willing should be surveyed—which they wish to keep to be their own absolute property. The only survey they want is the survey of the outside boundary of their land, and if the Maori Council have decided upon the outside boundary of such land and have that boundary surveyed no trouble can affect that land. If that was the case no surveyor would be authorised to enter upon Native lands and make a survey unless that survey had been first sanctioned by the Maori Council. But under the laws—with regard to surveying—as they now exist, even though the owners of the land are entirely opposed to a survey being made, the Native Minister authorises a surveyor to enter upon a block of Maori land on the application of, perhaps, only one of the Native owners of that land. Supposing there are one or two hundred owners of the block and one man out of that two hundred owners applies for a survey to be made —we will suppose that the Government has purchased that man's interest—then they authorise a survey to be made, and the other owners of the land, who are not willing such a survey should be made, are called upon to suffer injustice. Then that block is called upon to pay the cost of such survey, together with the interest accruing thereon from year to year—and this keeps on mounting up—th?y are not allowed to sell or lease their lands in the meantime, and the lands are saddled with this burden of survey-money and interest accruing therefrom. The people have to suffer that injury ; and if called upon to pay this survey charge they are not allowed to sell their lands for the prices they would like to get for them. They are not allowed to lease it. They have no other means of raising money, and the result is the land is sometimes put up to auction and sold to defray the cost of the surveys. Now, I say the whole of that would be done away with once and for all if power was given to the Maori Council to deal with the question of surveys. 10. Then, he means to prevent surveys, not to control them. I thought he probably had not realised that the whole of the surveys have to be tied in one with the other ; he only wants to prevent the surveyor going there, not to have any actual control of the survey itself ?—Yes ; no survey should be made of Native land which has not first been authorised by the Maori Council, because Maoris, no doubt, as time passes by, will perhaps find out how to survey themselves. All I want is to have the power given to the Maori Council. I have no doubt if they realise that it is for their benefit the land should be surveyed they will agree to it—if they find it will prejudicially affect them they will have the right to stop it. Then, that would remove one of the causes of grievances and trouble at once—a frequent cause of trouble between the two races inhabiting this country. 11. He wants the Maori Council to have power to set aside land and make subdivisions. Does he not realise there must then be some registration of these lands, and that that must be done in connection with all the reserves of the country —a final registration by some Court?— Yes ;it would be quite competent for the Maori Council to keep a register-book of their own. It would be a record of their part of the transaction and would be equivalent to the records kept by the Europeans on their side. 12. But he wants it an entirely separate record ?—Yes; let the Maori Council keep its
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separate register, but let them at the same time inform the European Eegistrar what steps they are taking, so that their two records may agree, then it will not be any longer competent for the Maori people to dispute or cavil at any of the records that may be made, because the two separate records will bear one another out; and probably the Government will appoint some person to be a member of the Maori Council, or to officiate in some other capacity, to direct and instruct the members of the Maori Council in regard to matters of this kind. 13. I understood him to say that there was to be some Court in connection with this Maori Council in which all cases, except such serious crimes as murders, &c, should be dealt with : does he mean a Court of justice apart from the ordinary Courts of the colony, or what? —Yes; I say that if the Maori Council is constituted they should be given a Court, and empowered to deal with matters that take place within their own districts and affect Maoris. They should be given policemen and other officials, and should be allowed to deal with such matters as it may be deemed right they should have power to deal with. 14. Then, there would be no appeal as at present from the lower Court to the higher Court? —No doubt if it was such a crime as murder there would be an appeal. 15. A civil dispute for instance?— Perhaps if it was a matter of very serious trouble that grievously affected a large section of the people—a hapu or something of that kind—it would, perhaps be right that an appeal should be made to the Supreme Court, and the Maori Council should state the circumstances of the case as it knew them to the Supreme Court. 16. Hon. J. Carroll.] In their desire to have a Council to manage their land affairs in their district, how does he propose that that Council should be constituted : partly European and partly Maori?—l think that with regard to matters relating to their lands—there are matters that immediately affect the Maori people alone—it would be much better that Europeans should be kept out of it. What would be the object of bringing in a pakeha that did not understand the position, and giving him an opportunity to hamper and get in the way of what the Maoris would like to do. Then, of course, looking at the matter from another point of view, if the House could not agree to all the members of this Council being Maoris through fear of their acting in a way that would be contrary to law, I say no —I do not think there is any likelihood of their doing that, because they would have been constituted by this House and given the power they ask for by this Council. 17. He understands, if Parliament gives them the power they ask for, Parliament is responsible to the general public for the manner in which that power would be exercised in the general interests of the hapu?—Yes; I think the same remark applies with equal truth to every law that is ■passed by this House. It recoils back on the head of the Government if it does not act in a proper direction. But I say that every year when Parliament opens the proceedings of the Maori Council should be submitted to Parliament—laid before Parliament—and let Parliament satisfy itself whether they are acting rightly or wrongly. 18. The work of that Council would be to administer their lands, lease their lands, control the surveys, cut up the land, and promote settlement wherever necessary and induce occupation ? Y es 19. And also the functions at present performed by the Native Land Court would be taken over?—l think that all the power that it will be necessary to vest in the Maori Council will be simply the power to deal with their lands as they consider they ought to be dealt with. 20. For the official performance of that work, will it not be necessary to have strict and accurate records kept by the Council in dealing with records of other people ?—Oh, yes ; of course it would never do that anything should be done outside of what the law allowed to be done. 21. In carrying out the surveys on different blocks of land. Of course, I presume he is aware that under the system of our surveys we have to connect the whole survey system of the colony— I. mean a survey is of no use or benefit if it is merely to cut out Native lands or cultivations, and if it is left disconnected ?—Yes. 22. Now, in undertaking the leasing of Native lands, supposing they get the power they ask for. It would be necessary to have regulations fixing, possibly, an area-limit —if they make it necessary to restrict the area leased to any single individual ? —All such regulations as may be necessary, such as that, and any other regulations necessary, should be embodied in the Act empowering the Maori Council Constitution, and they should be on no account permitted to go outside the Act and the provisions of the Act which may be passed. If they depart from the provisions that will at once be an infringement of the law. 23. The administration of an Act such as they require would involve the cutting-up, marking off reserves, surveying them, and other things, and the settlement of disputes between themselves as to the ownership of land ?—Yes, everything. 24. Now, the witness has had a lot of experience on the Native side, and on the European side he has had experience of farming himself ; does he say that it is possible for any Council composed wholly of Maoris to carry out all the duties that must be necessary under a system of that kind ?—Oh, yes ; I think if they were given the power to do this that they would be entirely competent to do it. They would be like children sent to school to learn. A child goes to school and by degrees attains to the utmost pinnacle of knowledge. This is very much easier than actual school-work. There is no difficulty at all. Where does the difficulty come in? How can a difficulty possibly arise in land questions ? The hapus having decided upon what is the proper position of the case, all they will have to do is to give effect to it. Then, again, with regard to leases, supposing a Maori owner wants to lease, and the Council inquires into the ins and outs of the matter and satisfies itself that it would be for the benefit of the owner, his family and children, and descendants after him, that this should be sanctioned by the Council, of course, then, it would be for the Council to satisfy itself of that and give effect to it. 25. Who would draw up the lease? The Council would. Say we leased 10,000 acres and you
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put in all sorts of conditions, who would draw up those leases, and so forth ?—Oh, that would be quite easy. It would be done this way : when this Bill comes before the House, and comes to be discussed, let a clause be inserted, or a provision be inserted in this Bill, providing for the drawingup of a printed form of lease, which shall be the form used in all cases, and then there will be no trouble at all in regard to leases. 26. But supposing there was timber on the land and you required a special covenant with regard to the rights, permitting, we might say, the tenant to take some portion of it and to pay a royalty. And supposing, again, it is necessary to put a covenant in the lease binding the tenant down to improve so many acres a year —to expend so much. And, again, supposing there is an agreement with Natives to occupy a percentage of that block, we will say 50 acres, for cultivation, but, owing to the nature of the soil, cultivation cannot be carried on for more than a certain length of time at one place, and the lessees wish to shift—you would require a clause in the lease for that. This could not all be put into a form ?—Oh, yes, it could. That could all be done when the question of discussing the forms that it would be necessary to adopt would be gone into. 27. Then, he thinks that a Council composed entirely of Maoris would be able to administer such a law more efficiently than a Council associated with which were men—Government officers, or men specially qualified to help them to work out an Act?—l think so, because, after all, it would not be left for pakehas to make laws or rules ; the Parliament would do that. 28. But that would impose no restrictions on their actions ? —Yes; they would have rules and regulations for their guidance, which would confine them to certain lines of action. 29. Well, we will now come to another point he brought out. Of course, he is agreeable that all the operations of this Council would have to be reported to Parliament every year?— Yes. 30. Of course there would not be a clerk to do that ?—Oh no ; there are interpreters to do that. 31. Then, he said that this Council should have power to judge cases—ordinary civil cases— the same as in the ordinary Courts, arising or confined solely between one Maori and another ?— y es . 32. Would it not be better to appoint Natives in certain districts as assessors to sit with the Stipendiary Magistrate, on those cases confined to Maoris or questions in dispute between Maoris and Europeans. It would be simpler?— No. 33. Well, make them Justices of the Peace then ?—That was done before and it was not satisfactory. 34. And he still thinks that they should have power to deal with the civil cases?—l say that this House should pass a law which would provide for the appointment of Maoris as Magistrates in their own districts, because I anticipate that a number of Maori Committees will be constituted in various districts of this Island. And I say that where questions arise in disputes between one Maori and another that the Maori Magistrates should deal with such cases. Where it is a question of a case between a pakeha and a Maori,- then you would have European Magistrates to deal with matters of that kind. 35. Well, does he mean this: that say there is in a village Maoris coming home late and disturbing the whole village—coming back drunk from some publichouse and disturbing the peace of that locality—the Maori Justices of the Peace appointed should have power to try them and to fine them : does the witness mean that?—Oh, yes, if such a rule as this had been made in that village. If any man comes home drunk and is seen drunk about any of the streets or parts of his place it should be competent to fine that man. Certainly the Maoris should do that. 36. Perhaps this will be nearer his idea : Supposing by Act you appointed, say, Village Boards or Village Councils, whatever you like to call them, just the same as the pakehas have Town Boards —of course, in some places they call them Committees—very well, then, a body like that to have charge of the village, and to see as to its sanitation, drainage, and to prevent drunkenness, permitting their taking wrongdoers before a Magistrate for punishment and so forth, would not that be useful instead of aiming at a larger constitution, which would only lead to complications if cases of law and so forth had to be dealt with ?—I am speaking in support of this petition, which asks for the granting of the Maori Council. It does not say anything now about the appointing of Kaiwhakawa Magistrates and so forth, but I am talking about what will come afterwards. 37. I know that. Of course, we are all investigating the matter to see if we can get any light out of it. 38. Captain Russell.) Supposing the Natives leased to a European and there is trouble between them, what Court is to decide their dispute ?—I have already replied to that question in my previous reply to a question put by Mr. Carroll. In the event of any question arising between Maoris and Europeans they would come to a Magistrate or the Supreme Court to be heard. I have no desire that this Bill should in any way clash with any of the laws of the country, and I cannot see that there is any part of it, as far as I can understand it as yet, that would in any way clash with the country's laws, but that it would be of very great assistance in the dispensation of the country's laws. 39. Mr. McLean.] Does he propose that there should be only one Council, or several ?—What I say is this: that if we have one general Maori Council constituted that Maori Council should have the power to appoint tribal Councils to operate in their respective districts amongst their own people. 40. How is the cost of the Council to be defrayed ? Where is it to come from ?—I think the Maoris owning lands must contribute to support the system and in the same way that Europeans do, then they will progress as Europeans do. I see members smile when they hear me say that, as though they look upon Maoris as being unable to manage their own affairs, but let me tell the members of this Committee that the Maoris are quite grown up, as far as present circumstances require, and are competent to deal with these things.
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41. Have the Maoris anything to complain of in regard to the general laws of the country other than those referring to the land ?—No, we have no complaint against European law other than those which affect and apply to Native lands, but with regard to laws affecting Native lands I most distinctly and strenuously do object to them, and the member who is asking me this question himself knows perfectly well that what I say is true —that the Maoris do suffer very great injustice under the land-laws as now constituted. 42. The Chairman.] If this Maori Council was constituted, would the Council have the power in themselves to administer the law with regard to the administration of justice, or would they appoint sub-committees with regard to the administration of law in certain districts ?—What I say is this: Say, for example, the business arising in Mr. Heke's district, that would be left to his District Committee to deal with. That is apart from the Maori Council, which is to be set up wherever we decide shall be the central place—whichever place may be decided upon by the members who shall be elected by the various sections of the Maori people to represent them on that Maori Council. Then, that Maori Council will give power to the sub-councils to administrate the law which may be given to them b.y the Parliament. I think that would lighten the difficulty in all the districts all over the North Island. 43. That would be to appoint a special Committee for the administration of justice apart from land questions?— Supposing the Eunanga Council sub-committees were set up and appointed by the Maori Council within a place were some of their people live. Now, supposing any Maori trouble arose amoDgst them, then this Committee which has been appointed by the Maori Council for that purpose would deal with the question of that trouble there, and would come to a final decision. They would then report to the head Council, telling the head Maori Council what decision they had come to, and the head Council would decide whether they were right or wrong in their decision. 44. What I mean is this: If we appointed in the different districts a Committee whose duty alone would be to administer justice, apart altogether from the question of lands ?—Only to deal witn questions between Maori and Maori. I would not ask the power to be given to deal with a question between a Maori and a European. I think that should be done, because Maoris know all the ins and outs with respect to their customs and practices, and their lands, and so forth. 45. Mr. Stevens.] You remember the Act of 1882, or 1884, passed by Mr. Bryce's Government ?—I have heard of it; Ido not know it. 46. Do you not know that the effect of that Act was to give the Maoris power to manage their own affairs in a somewhat similar manner, such as is stated in this instance. Something similar to the law which Tamahau Mahupuku and his party asked to be passed by this present Parliament?— Yes, I have heard of the Act of 1882, but it was not the Act of 1881. 47. And did that act to the benefit of the Maori people ?—No; it was of no effect. There was no distinct mana and authority given under that Act. They were unable to do anything with it, because it was not clear. If an Act had been clearly drawn up they would have been able to exercise it. 48. Then, is the Act asked for during this Parliamnet to be different from the Act that was passed in 1882 '/—Well, if the Act was here and I had read it through, and all its various clauses, I might be in a position to reply to the questions asked me. It may be so ; on the other hand, it may not be so. 49. Of course, I am equally desirous, with other people, that some such law should be passed as will be for the benefit and will insure the prosperity of the Maori people, but I think that no definite proposal has yet been laid before the Committee to suggest the direction in which such a law should go. Up to the present I do not think that there is any proposal of any definite character that has been made. This petition to which lam now speaking is a request to the Government to bring down a Bill to meet the wishes of the people who have sent in this petition. 50. But this petition that I have got in my hand—Tamahau Mahupuku's and others—does not make any definite proposal as to what they suggest should be done ?—I would ask Mr. Stevens not to ask me any questions about that petition until it comes before the Committee. The petition I am speaking about now is the petition of the Maoris in the West Coast district. Mr. Stevens : Well, this is merely a petition expressing a chord of dissatisfaction with which I sympathize myself; but it does not, after all, make any definite proposal. I would suggest that it is not a proposal, nor is it a suggestion. I would suggest that it would be better, instead of sending in an indefinite request such as that, some definite proposal should be drawn up and submitted to the Committee for consideration. Something that we could say we could agree to or not, and then perhaps we might do something this year instead of there being, as last year, nothing done. 51. The Chairman.] I understand the petitioners have come before the Committee so as to lay before it their views upon a form of legislation they wish the Government to bring in ?— And I have done so. Bt. Hon. B. J. Seddon : I may say that Mr. Kaihau has put the position very plainly, and it is this: that the time has arrived, in my opinion, as Native Minister, that unless we lay down some well-defined policy in respect to dealing with the remnant of the Native lands—if we go on as we are now—they are being frittered away—the ultimate result will be a lot of landless Natives, regret and an ill-feeling engendered in the Native race; that will be the ultimate result. It is, then, a question upon which the Committee could advise after having read the evidence of last year, and whilst that evidence was given under a misapprehension, because since the evidence was taken there has been a change of feeling on the part of the Natives that we ought to give in so far as was proposed in the Legislature last session, but that we ought to give optional legislation—to
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pass a Bill that they could adopt if they thought fit, but in the meantime to stop the land from being sold or being parted with, and it is a question for the Committee. We can possibly blend our ideas—-modify the proposals so as to make them acceptable to the majority of the members of the Committee, and acceptable also to the Native race, so that they could adopt them. There is one of two courses that should be adopted. It will be urged this is a question of policy. There is a policy involved I admit, and while the responsibility in respect to policy rests upon the Government, yet the question is of such grave moment that I hope that all party feeling will be thrown aside, and as there are on the Committee those who • have experience and expert knowledge I ask them to assist us. If that assistance is rendered I feel satisfied that we could pass this session a short measure fixing the dealing with Native lands, the manner in which it is to be administered, giving in the administration a representation to the particular landowners whose lands are being dealt with, and having the Government represented by experts and those who are accustomed to deal with lands and with the administration. This measure should be as far as practicable consistent with our Crown-lands administration, the Government finding the capital with which to place the land for settlement purposes, the proceeds to go to the Native owners. This is consistent with the legislation now existing, because we have power for the Natives to hand their land over to the Commissioner of Crown Lands. This has got to be done by deed in each case. It is found to be expensive, and it is also found that in handing it over simply to the Commissioner of Crown Lands—l allude to the Auckland Commissioner of Crown Lands— as trustee he claimed to have a responsibility, and with the law, expenses, and the difficulty and time lost, no doubt, it practically set aside the legislation. Now, what is wanted is to do away with the trust conditions —to do away with the necessity for the Maoris in each case having to be a party to a deed and adopt a principle generally to a district—that the lands in that particular district if the majority of the Native owners decide—that you deal with them as though they were Crown lands, but maintaining the ownership of the Natives and simply administrating by a Board. You could then group blocks of lands with Maori owners in it, and the only trouble would be paying the amount from the proceeds of the lands to the owners. Now, I have said there is one of two courses open to us—one is to put a short Bill through extending the provisions of the Act that I have mentioned. The other is, if there is no chance of getting that through, to pass a short measure saying it is beyond the completion of purchase now— undertaking that no further land should be bought until Parliament has definitely settled how the land should be dealt with. The former course, I think, is the best, because we, the present Committee, have heard the evidence. We know now pretty well the points upon which to go. If it is left over it means, of course, nothing will be done for a year, and then another Committee will have to take evidence and go through the course that we have gone through, and that will be expensive and cause some dissatisfaction. Now, to put in a concrete form what I think should be done : I think a Select Committee should be appointed from this Committee, and that they should take the evidence and bring up a report—or an amended Bill practically—for submission to the Committee, and then submit that Bill to the Committee as a whole, and if we then agreed upon it we should submit it to the House, and I think the House would accept it. I do not think I can do or say more. The fact of taking any further evidence is unnecessary. We pretty well all know what the minds of the Natives are, I think. Mr. Stevens: The Native Minister has said that if a Bill failed to pass for the purpose of preventing any further purchase of Native lands by the Crown : does that mean that the Crown shall be enabled to complete the purchases of all blocks over which there is a proclamation or of blocks in which they have obtained one, two, or three signatures ? Bt. Hon. B. J. Seddon : Say, where there are any negotiations for certain blocks at the present time—we have bought interests in those blocks. It might be necessary in those blocks to get those interested to partition. The blocks are not in a position at present to be partitioned. It simply.gives the power to complete purchases already commenced and partition interests already acquired, but otherwise not to enter into any fresh negotiations. Mr. Stevens : That means any block in which the Crown has a signature—that would meet the position, I understand ? Bt. Hon. B. J. Seddon : To purchase sufficient area to warrant it. You would not leave the acres with a piece here and there—you had better return the money. Mr. McLean : Supposing a block is 100,000 acres. Bt. Hon. B. J. Seddon : That is a matter of detail which, in going through the Bill, we could fix by a sliding scale—as to the proportion. What I want to be clearly understood is this: I am myself firmly convinced that if we go on as we are doing now—take the quality of the land that remains in the hands of the Natives; take the number of the Natives, allow that they will not increase—if we go on as we are doing there is only one end to it. We would like it to be settled some time.
Tuesday, 19th Sbptembeb, 1899. Mr. Hone Heke examined. The Chairman : When the Committee adjourned on Friday last it was with the intention of hearing to-day the views of Messrs. H. Heke, Wi Pere, and T. Parata (Mr. H. Kaihau having already expressed his opinion), representatives of the Maori race, on the petitions relating to proposed amendment of the Native-land laws now before the Committee. Mr. Heke : This is an expression of my opinion given with a view of suggesting to the Com-
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mittee the direction in which legislation should go. -1 desire to give my own personal views with regard to what legislation I consider necessary to deal with Maori land. I believe in the assimilation of the laws controlling Native lands with the laws operating over European lands or the property of Europeans, because under such laws each man retains his independent rights of control, and can administer and dispose of his own land as he pleases, and has access to the outside general market. There would be nothing to confine the price payable for Native lands to any particular figure, as is the case now under the Native-land laws. The European population are very lightly dealt with under the laws which control their property. They are not put to any very considerable expense, monetary or otherwise, in their transactions in the matter of land, but the Maoris are on a totally different footing. I will show the main points in the Native-land laws to which I object. I object to restrictions upon the Native lauds. I look upon the existing restrict tions as a form of tax on the land. It is this restriction which prohibits the Maori from placing his land upon the outside market, and confines him to disposing of his land to the Government only. That being so, the natural consequence is he only gets a very small price per acre. In support of my contention that this restriction is a form of tax I will cite a ease. One million pounds was borrowed by the Atkinson Government for the purpose of making the North Island Main Trunk Railway line. Now, out of that million loan the sum of £200,000 was set aside for the purpose of purchasing Native lands. That £200,000 has been expended upon the purchase of Native lands, and the "lands which the Crown has acquired for that sum has been valued at £800,000. This will show that the present valuation placed upon that land is no less than £600,000 more than the money which the Crown gave for it. Therefore I say I am justified in looking upon this restriction as imposing a tax directly on Native lands. The State benefits by restricting Native rights. Now, there are many tracts of Native land which the Crown has purchased for ss. an acre, and for which the Maoris, if it had been competent for them to avail themselves of the outside market; could have obtained from £1 10s. to £2 per acre, and the Government only paid ss. That is one phase of the question. Now, with regard to other disabilities which the Maoris are called upon to suffer in connection with their lands under the laws which now exist. We have a Stamp Act which affects Native lands. This is a very, very heavy tax. Under that Act the Maori has to forego no less a sum than £10 out of every £100 on the value of lands he sells. A European landowner selling his land has not to pay anything like the amount of stamp duty which the Maoris have to. All a European has to do is to pay at the rate of 15s. per £100. So you will note the difference. Now, sir, taking into consideration these burdens and disabilities, lam satisfied in my own mind that the most desirable step we should take to meet the necessities of the present case is that the existing land-laws with regard to lands owned by Europeans should be made to apply to lands the pro-; perty of Natives. Ido not here take up a sentimental view. I will come to another point. Why should Maoris be debarred from sharing in all the benefits the Europeans derive under the provisions of the Land for Settlements Act. If the Crown decides to take a European's land under the provisions of that Act, it, first of all, calls upon the European owner of that land to name the price which he is prepared to take. If the Crown is not prepared to give the European owner the price he asks for his land, it then makes him an offer. In the event of the European landholder not agreeing to the price offered, and the Crown refusing to take the land at the price placed upon it by the European owner, the matter is placed before an Arbitration Court to decide upon the price to be paid for the land as between the European land-owner and the Crown; the Crown then has the privilege of either purchasing or refusing to purchase the land when they know what has been the award of the Arbitration Court. Now, that is quite right. It is very different in the case of Native lands. AH that the land-purchase officer does is to simply state the price the Crown are prepared to give, knowing that there is no other person who can bid up the value of the land, and further knowing that there is no arbitration Court into which the matter can be taken to ascertain the proper price of the land. Then, again, when the Crown has acquired a block of European land, under the provisions of the Land for Settlements Act, such land is surveyed and cut up. It is roaded, and the money expended upon this survey and upon the making of the roads is found by the colony. It is not deducted from the amount which has been agreed upon as the price to be paid to the European owner of the land. The Chairman : I understand that the prayer of this petition is to prohibit the sale of Native lands. Now, Mr. Heke is advocating the principle of selling the Maori lands. If the sale of 'Native land was to cease altogether, then this would have no bearing on the case whatever. Mr. Heke : I want to express my own opinion about it. Now, when Maori land is purchased an entirely different system is practised. In that case the Maoris' land is called upon to bear the expense of the survey and the subdividing and the roading. I say that all these things seem to me to be a form of taxation. I might go into this matter at very much greater length, and point out a great many other disabilities and grievances which, affect the Maoris under the existing Native-land laws. However, I propose now to speak about the Acts passed in the year 1894. When the Crown decided that it was desirable Native land should be restricted they passed the Native Land Court Act of 1894, and since the passing of that Act it has been recognised as the basis upon which all subsequent Native legislation has been passed. Well, that being so, in order to come to a starting-point, we know the Act of 1894 says the Crown's right of preemption must exist. I now say this right of preemption is detrimental to the Natives, and should be done away with, and a system of leasing should be adopted in its stead. It was exceedingly pleasant to hear the Hon. Mr. Carroll and the Right Hon. the Premier, the other day, say that the Government did, at the present time, entertain such a view as that which I now advocate with regard to the desirability of ceasing to purchase anymore Native lands. Well, now, that being a satisfactory answer to one 'of the views which I advocate, I am ready and willing to give any measure brought down to the House to that effect my hearty support, and I hope that it may be passed this present session. Even though the desires of my constituents—the Maori population of the district which I repres 2—l. 3a.
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sent—are very much wider than anything w& are likely to attain this session, still, it will be something gained, and I will endeavour later on to obtain some of the main objects the people ask for. Now, as to the authorities which are proposed to be vested in the Board to be constituted under the Government Board Bill, I cannot altogether see my way to agree to them. However, of course, that is a question for consideration and discussion. My opinion is this : With regard to such a body as a Board constituted in the manner provided by this Bill, I say that such a Board should have no right to take any action on its own immediate responsibility without first having had the matter with which it has to deal laid before it by the people who are personally interested. Now, it is proposed that the functions of a Board shall be, generally speaking, these: It shall have .control and the management of all leases, and the general administration of the lands. It will find its hands very full with these functions, and, that being so, I do not think it would be right ;or proper that such Board should be vested with any of the powers and functions of a Native Land Court. It will be necessary to vest such powers and functions in a separate tribunal. However, I do not propose to speak any longer upon that subject, but I shall now touch upon the question of Native lands—particular Native lands—l mean lands still held under uninvestigated or unascertained title. lam willing, as 1 have said, that a Board should be constituted to have the control and management of Native lands upon the basis and for the reasons which I have spoken of; and as we understand it is the intention of the Government now to endeavour to put a stop to the further purchase of Native lands, one of the matters most ardently desired by the Maoris seems to be near attainment. Now, with regard to small tracts of uninvestigated Maori land in this country, I say that the present laws with regard to surveying Native lands should not apply to them, because they are so expensive, and such expense becomes an encumbrance, which is undesirable, and many people are prejudicially affected by any action taken by one or more of the alleged owners without the knowledge or consent of the rest. Now, I would suggest that the following course should be taken : Let those hapus who claim to have an interest in these uninvestigated lands select a Committee from amongst themselves, such Committee to meet at an appointed time and place, and thoroughly inquire into and ascertain the outside boundary of such uninvestigated land, its tribal or sub-tribal partitions and family subdivisions. That having been first done, and the external and internal boundaries having been, by that means, definitely ascertained, then it will be quite time enough for a survey to be made of such partitions if desired by the people. It will then be competent for the Committee, which has been selected by the interested hapus, to proceed to exercise its other functions. To pass, for instance, the list of names of the various owners entitled to each respective subdivision of such land. Now, I am myself satisfied that such a system, in respect to papatupu land, as I have outlined is quite within the possibility of accomplishment. I have myself proved such to be the case. I have constituted and worked out a similar scheme, and I say that this system would remove a great many burdens now severely felt, and it would remove a great many causes of trouble that frequently arise between Natives and Natives. I say that if the Committee had once ascertained the tribal boundaries, the hapu boundaries, and so forth, and had passed a list of owners for each respective partition, that that would be all such Committee would have to do, and then it would simply be for them to submit their finding either to the Board or other duly appointed tribunal for confirmation. Then there is the whole matter solved without the excessive charges and irritation following on Native Land Court proceedings; and, as I understand that we are now assembled here for the purpose of discussing matters with a view to discover the most beneficial and least expensive way of securing the welfare of the Maoris, I submit, from my point of view, that this is a scheme which is eminently fitted for the necessities of the occasion, and now that I understand the present intention I may say that I am prepared to concede a good deal of what I would wish to see accomplished with a view of having the views of the Government in this matter carried out. I think that is all I have to say. Mr. Kaihau : I thought that we were going to discuss the Petition on which I spoke the other day before this Committee. This is another matter altogether. This is giving an expression of opinion as to the direction which individual members of this Committee think that legislation ought to take, before we have done taking the first necessary step, which is to discuss the subjectmatter of the petition before the Committee. The Chairman: I thought the object in presenting these petitions to the House was for the purpose of getting the views of the representatives of the Maori race, on this Committee, as to what form the legislation should take in order to limit the evils complained of in the petitions. Mr. Kaihau expressed himself to the Committee in reference to these matters and what he thought the best way of carrying out the wishes of the Native race, the chief prayer of the petition being that the sale of Native land should cease. Mr. Kaihau supported that petition, and gave his views as to what steps should be taken with regard to the particular dealings with the lands. I understand Mr. Heke to-day also supported the chief contention in the petition—that the sale of Maori land should cease. He has also expressed himself as to how European dealing with Native lands should be carried on. Thus we have the views of the two Natives representing the Western and Northern Divisions. Now, the Committee are anxious to get the views of the Eastern District represented by Mr. Wi Pere. Then, I think it would be the duty of the Committee to endeavour, as far as possible, to reconcile any difference of opinion that may have been expressed by the representatives of the Maori race. This appears to me to be the object we have in view now. ;...• . Hon. Mr. Carroll: I think it is desirable that the various Maori members representing the different districts into which this country is divided should express their respective views on the matter. There is no occasion for them to go into any very lengthy speeches, but simply to give a short, clear, and concise statement of their views with regard to what each of them respectively considers is the necessary legislation that should be undertaken, and then, if we consider it necessary to ask any questions with regard to any matters in which it may transpire that the views of
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the different Maori members do not coincide, then leave it for us the European members of this Committee to ask what questions may seem necessary with a view to clearing up or reconciling the contesting views. I would like, for example, to ask Mr. Heke just one or two questions. The Chairman : Very well, Mr. Carroll. 1. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] First of all, I would like to ask him whether he is absolutely definite in saying that there should be no more Native land purchased ? —What I say is this: What I most desire is the removal of the restriction with regard to the sale of Native lands absolutely, and that Maoris should be allowed to deal with their lands as they think fit. I realise that this is extremely difficult, if not absolutely impossible, of accomplishment; therefore I must take the smaller advantages, and agree to there being no more purchasing of Native lands. 2. Then, I understand you to say that you are now prepared to support a measure which will prohibit any further Native land purchase, either by the Crown or by any private purchaser ?— There are two lines of views which I am prepared to accept, the first of which, the one which I personally prefer, is that the restrictions should be taken off and Maoris allowed to deal with their lands as they think fit. Now that I see it is not likely I can obtain that, I advance the other view, and say, stop Crown purchases. That is the absolute and definite stand which I now take. 3. Well, now, as you have expressed yourself as being in support of a measure which will stop sales either to the Crown or private purchasers of any Maori land, are you prepared to make any exemptions in the case of Maoris, for instance, who consider it advisable to individualise or deal with their lands in any particular way ? —Yes ; 1 think that would be a concession to meet the first line I took up, but for the present I am prepared to stand by what I have already said. 4. Then, I understand you to mean this : that when you say prohibit the sale of Native land you mean prohibit the sale of Native land such as this: land the title to which is uninvestigated or land the title to which has been ascertained, and awarded to a large number of owners, whether under a certificate of title or other instrument?— When I say that lam prepared to support a measure to prohibit any further purchase of Native lands either by the Crown or by private purchasers I mean that I am prepared to support such a law with regard to all such descriptions' of Native lands as is contemplated in the Bill which the Government intend to bring down with a view of meeting the case. 5. But, as I understand by what you now say, you would leave a way open whereby the partitions may be effected? Supposing, for instance, there was a block of land held by a few owners only and it is recognised that they could manage their own land to better advantage than the Board could do on their behalf, and if such owners of such land prefer that they should be allowed to personally administer their own land irrespective of Boards, should they be permitted to exercise that privilege ? Would it be advisable ?—Yes, that is my view of the case; but* then, I do net go so far as to say that the Board in the .first place shall have the right to control that land and that the Maoris should have to first ask the Board's permission before they could utilise or work the land themselves outside of the Board's control. 6. Very well. You say that the purchase of Maori land, either by the Crown or private purchasers, is to be stopped. Now, if that is done, what do you say to the proposal that a Board or a Maori Council or some such body as that should be constituted to deal with these lands ?— Well, I agree, because the present wish and desire appears to be that a Board or some such tribunal should be constituted. But I think that the only question upon which it is possible I may not agree either with yourself or some other of my fellow-members of this Committee is the question of jurisdiction and authority to be given to that Board. 7. Well, now, irrespective of the powers and authority that may be vested in that Board, leaving that aside for the present, supposing that a Board is constituted to manage and administer Maori lands, would you be willing that all Native lands should be compulsorily placed under the control of that Board, or would you rather advocate that it should be for the Native owners of each separate block af land to first of all submit their lands to the Board before the Board could have any control over them?—l say that it should be optional with the Native owners of the land whether or not they considered it advisable to place their lands under the control and management of the Board. It should not be made an arbitrary matter. 8. Very well, then, we will say, for the purpose of argument, that the matter is to be as you advocate that it is to be optional with the owners of the land whether or not they submit their lands to the control of the Board; then, in the event of certain owners of certain land declining to come under the powers which control the management of the Board, what condition, of' what law, or what state of things, would apply to them—to their lands?— Supposing a Bill has been passed. I say that there should be no compulsion; it should be optional for the Native owners to decide whether they would bring their land under the operation of the Board, and I say that the position of Native landowners who do not wish to bring their lands under the control of the Board would be that their lands would still be under the control of the general provisions of the Act. ' Supposing this Native Land Bill had become law, the land would be under the control of that Act, even though they did not bring their lands under the operation of the Board; the only thing would be that they, under that Act, do not avail themselves of that provision which renders it competent for them to place their lands under the Board if they sO wish. It is possible that certain owners of land may say, "Oh, no, we want to cultivate our : own land, then why should we place it under the management of the Board?" Then, there may , be other Native owners who say, "We do not want this Bill at all; let our lands remain under the[ Acts that now obtain, and we do not want to have anything to do with the new Native Act." - Mr. Kaihau.': Now, I think, Mr. Chairman, that we are not doing what we came here to do.' We did not come here to talk about either the Government Board Bill or to talk about my but we came here to discuss matters with a view to deciding upon other and better land-laws— tc
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draw up legislation which will meet the views of all. The Board Bill is the Government side,, then there are the Bills of Messrs. Wi Pere and Hone Heke, and all the other Bills, to a certain extent of a similar nature, but they are not recognised. At any rate, they are before the. House. Now, these petitions pray that some sort of compromise—some sort of measure—be brought in between these conflicting Bills, which will be a measure endeavouring to bring things togetner; and what I submit is this : that what we ought to do is for each of us—myself, Mr. Heke, Mr. Wi Pere, and Mr. Can oil—to give the particular views we advocate as to the direction in which legislation should go, and then, with that material all before us, we should endeavour to construct the Bill which we want the Government to pass. The Chairman: I understand that is exactly what the Committee are trying to do. Mr. Kaihau: We are dealing with nothing but the Board up to the present. The Chairman : I understand Mr. Carroll is endeavouring to elicit from Mr. Heke, by means of questions, more explicitly his views with reference to the Native lands. He is trying to get a more explicit expression of Mr. Heke's views with regard to what the legislation should be. Hon. Mr. Carroll: The position of things as I understand it is this : these petitions are a request to the House that a short measure dealing with Native lands should be passed during this present session of Parliament. Well, the Government is desirous of meeting that wish, but before the Government takes any definite action the Government is desirous of hearing the views of Messrs. Kaihau, Heke, and Wi Pere upon this question, so that they may be able when they came to frame a Bill to give effect, as nearly as may be possible, to the desires of the people who ask that such a measure should be passed, and Ido not wished to be misunderstood. While lam asking these questions of Mr. Heke I am not doing so with a view of establishing the Native Land Board Bill, or any other Bill for that matter. lam simply asking the questions not with a view to advocating any line of argument, but simply with a view to elucidate .points in the statement that has been made by the witness, and generally to clear up the ground, so that we may' have before us a clear understanding of what is the position. You see when a mau makes a speech he very often makes a speech which is entirely clear and understandable from his own personal point of view, but then there is also the point of view of the listener, and if the listener wants to understand any point which he thinks he does not quite grasp the meaning of, then he exercises his privilege of asking questions with a view to learning what is the actual meaning of the speaker. Of course, if the Committee wishes that questions should cease to be put, and that the bare statement of the witnesses should be taken, I am quite willing. The Chairman: I think the Committee's desire is, as far as possible, if they do not understand the statement made by the witness, to glean further information on this subject by questioning. Mr. Kaihau: Very well, then, let this system of questions continue, but it will end in our going on and on from day to day till the end of the Parliament, and nothing will be done. The Chairman : Mr. Kaihau does not clearly understand the position. What does he want, the Committee to do with regard to these petitions—to inquire into the cause that led up to them, or what ? To enable the Committee to come to some recommendation to submit to the Government —to act as nearly as possible with the prayer of these petitions—we must take the course we are now taking. Mr. Carroll, will you proceed. 9. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Then, I understand you to mean, Mr. Heke, that if this Act becomes law, and certain people do not desire that their lands be brought under the application of the Board, they will be still under the control of the conditions that are contained in the Act, but. the adminstration and management of their own lands will be in their own hands, outside of any control by the Board ? —Yes. 10. Well, then, would you be in favour of inserting some such provision in the proposed Act aa this: that people who do not wish to bring their land under the control of the Board should make application to the Board to be exempted from control with regard to their own land ?—Yes, if as the result of our investigation we ascertained that it would be advisable for them to make such application. 11. What I mean to ask you is this: Supposing that this proposed Act has passed and become law, be it the Maori Council Act, or the Board, or whatever is the tribunal to be constituted, and that Act wipes out and does away with all existing Native-land laws, and takes the place of the land-laws that now exist, then all Native lands whatsoever come under the operation and provisions of that Act—whatever it may be—then all previous existing Acts having been wiped, away by this Act—supposing, then, certain persons did not wish to come under such Board,' or Maori Council, or whatever tribunal be constituted to administer their land, would you have them ask for that exemption from the Maori Council or Board, or would they take some" other means to obtain that exemption—appeal to the Governor in Council, for instance?— What I say is that if all existing Native-land laws are abolished, and the Bill which we are now endeavouring to frame becomes law, the Board should be constituted, and act under the authority of that Act, but it should not be that the Board have the immediate and absolute right to control and administer all or any Native lands unless in the first place the owner or owners submit their, lands for the Board to administer and control—it should be optional. 12. Well, we will leave that point. What powers would you propose the Board should have in the administration of Native lands—for instance, will they have power to lease?— Yes, they should have the right to lease, and to control and administer lands placed in their hands; but: they should only exercise those powers in the direction suggested by the owners of the land when placing it under the control of the Board. 13. Then, you would advocate giving the Board the authority to survey the lands—to subdivide the lands, to make reserves for the owners who wish such reserves to be made, and to generally control and administer the lands? —If that is the wish of the people when they placed their lands under the operation of the Board, I should say Yes.
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14. Well, now, outside of that, and irrespective of questions such as that—l mean to say matters of that kind of management of land we have been speaking of—would you advocate that the Board should be given any other powers similar to those which are placed in the Crown Lands Boards of the colony, if those laws were modified here and there so as to be adaptable to the wishes of the Natives ?—I am quite willing such powers should be given to the Board as would enable them to act in whatever direction might be desired by the owners of any land submitted to their control and management. 15. How would you have this Board or Council constituted : should it be all Maoris or partly Europeans?— Personally, Ido not consider that a matter of very serious importance. If they are to be Europeans, I say let them be Europeans. If there is to be a majority of Europeans and a minority of Maori on the Board or body, I am willing that that should be so; or if the House decides that the majority of the members of such a tribunal should be Maoris, and the minority Europeans, that is equally acceptable, because I know that that would meet the wishes of the Maori people. But if this Board is to undertake the powers and functions of the Native Land Court, then I would advocate that the Maoris should be in the majority. I say that if the Board is constituted and set up, never mind what powers may be vested in it, and the right of option is given to the people who own the lands either to take their lands before the Board or keep them away from its operations —if that is done, then I say there is no necessity for me to stipulate or make it a condition as to how the Board should be constituted because, having made it optional with the owners of the land, it then remains for them to consider whether they think it is desirable to place their land under the operation of that Board or not.
Mr. B. Monk : Mr. Chairman, I want to make a suggestion to this Committee, as the result of what I have experienced during the three sessions of this Parliament. Really, what comes before any Native Affairs Committee with reference to the alteration in the operations of the present laws upon the Native lands is simply the result of a conviction in the minds of the Natives that they have not been dealt fairly with by ourselves —that is, by our Governments ; I am not blaming any particular Government. Now, Mr. Chairman, I believe that the only method of securing relief to the Natives is, in the first place, to make them feel that their rights, and their property, and their lands are as equitably secured to them as the rights are secured in the lands that the Europeans own. And I believe that the Bill which will meet the case must be a Bill something like this: that the Government will give the Natives absolute free-trade in their lands, subject to the restrictions which I shall presently mention—that is, that the Native lands must not be leased or alienated excepting under the conditions which now apply to Crown lands; the quantity of land that may be taken up not to exceed the areas prescribed in the Land, for Settlements Act, according to the quality of the land. It may be smaller if they like. Such regulations will enable the Natives at once to feel that they are not subjected to any inequality or disparagement as compared with their European brethren. Now, the proposed Native Committee or Native Board constituted by the operation of law, I believe, would lead to confusion. The Chairman: Pardon me interrupting you, Mr. Monk, but the idea in receiving these petitions from the Natives was to get the Natives' views on this question. Mr, Monk: lam trying to crystallize what I believe are the Native views, with a desire to save time. The Chairman: After the Natives have expressed their views it will then be for the European members of the Committee to reconcile any differences of opinion expressed by the Native representatives, and thus mould something definite for the Committee to discuss. Mr. Monk : I just want to add this, Mr. Chairman : I believe that the Natives require to set up, voluntarily among themselves, Native Boards. I think that will relieve them of an immense amount of loss which we have noticed the Natives are suffering from under the uncertainties of the decisions of the Native Land Courts. If the Natives would set up among themselves, without an Act of Parliament, their own Committees, and determine who were the owners of their various blocks of lands before they went before the Native Land Boards, having such decisions written out and signed by the owners-elect, it would save a great deal of loss to them, and by that means the Natives will avoid the litigation—the number of appeal cases which are now brought before us year after year—before this Committee—they will be avoided, and the expense and loss to the Natives will be prevented. Then, in addition to this Act, there should be very careful supervision to insure that the Natives be not allowed to pauperise themselves by selling out the whole of their lands, as they have been doing, in many cases, particularly during the last nine or ten years. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think I have put in a few sentences what should be the framework of an Act of Parliament which should meet the views of the Natives, and encourage them to believe that we desire to deal properly and fairly with them. I believe a Board would only lead to cost and confusion, and would result in valueless expenditure. There should be a Land Court only for confirming the title.
Thuesday, 21st September, 1899. Mr. Wi Peek examined. The Chairman: Has Mr. W. Pere anything to say on the petition before the Committee? Mr. Pere: I shall say what I have to say in support of the Board Bill—the Board Bill which was brought down last year by the Premier. I have been devoting my time during the present session of Parliament with a view to obtain the inclusion in that Bill of such of the amendments passed by the Papawai hui as it is advisable should be adopted. That Bill, and the amendments arrived at by the Papawai hui are contained in the report of the Native Affairs Com-
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mittee of last year, and I desire that any further amendments which it is proper should be made may be now included, if they were not included, in the amendments passed by the Papawai hui. I do not ask that all the amendments drawn up by the Papawai hui should be added to the Premier's original Bill. Now, the East Coast people are desirous that the Board Bill should be passed with reference to the East Coast alone; and the reason why the East Coast people ask that this Board Bill should be passed for their district only is because that Bill met with such strenuous opposition last year from the Natives of the West Coast district. Therefore Ido not now consider it necessary to suggest or frame any further amendments than those already arrived at by the East Coast people and submitted to the Committee. It simply remains for the Committee to make its selection of the provisions it may consider the most advisable and suitable and embody them in that Bill, seeing that the East Coast people are satisfied it would be for their good and benefit if the Premier's Bill be passed. Now, I will shorten my remarks. I will now refer to the present days. This Committee and the Government have called upon the Maori members to express their opinions with a view to placing the Government in possession of such information as will enable them to draw up a Bill which will be applicable to the whole of the Island. Now I will proceed to give expression to my views. The first matter I shall touch upon will be the principal provision of the Board Bill introduced by the Premier last year—that is, that all purchases of Native lands in New Zealand shall cease. That is the first matter I desire to see accomplished, and I want such a hard-and-fast and absolute provision made that it will be impossible for any subsequent Government to reopen the question of purchases—that it will never, in future, be competent for any Government to purchase Native land. I say that in the Bill this provision reserving all the balance of Maori lands for the Maoris from this out and for ever should be embodied, in commemoration of the long time that Queen Victoria has been upon the Throne of her forefathers, and in commemoration of the fact that she has now been fifty-eight years reigning over the Maori people of New Zealand—because the Premier's Board Bill was drawn up at the direct command of the Queen that legislation should be passed for the benefit of the Maori people. This Board Bill was prayed for by the chiefs of New Zealand in the congratulatory address presented to the Queen on the occasion of her attaining the sixtieth year of her reign. Therefore I do not want such a measure passed as will merely provide that the Maori lands should be reserved from sale temporarily, which would afford an opportunity of another subsequent Premier upsetting or repealing such provision, because the purchase of Native land is always made a strong point in the policy of any Government. Every Premier knows that by advocating the purchase of the Native land he curries favour with the European population, who like to see that done; but if the step I advocate is taken, in commemoration of the length of the Queen's reign—l mean the reservation of the land-—then the Maoris would be satisfied. If that is done, then these vermin will fall off from the Maori people once and for all. I describe the European population of this country as the vermin who suck the blood of the Maori people. If what I say should be done, is done—if the balance of Maori land remaining is reserved to them, then they will secure to themselves four million acres, or thereabouts, of land that now remains to them. Now, Europeans cannot tell me that they are not like kutu sucking our life's blood. The second matter on which I will speak is, I advocate that a Board should be constituted to deal with Maori lands. But, to revert back to my previous subject, I say that the moment this Bill becomes law—the Bill putting the needed stop to all purchases of Maori lands—the moment it becomes law it should immediately operate upon all Native lands in this Island. Then, the next step necessary will be the appointment or constitution of a Board to administer the Maori lands—the Board to be assisted in its operations by Block Committees. If twoowners of a block of land, or even one owner, desires to place his land under the operation of the Board it should be competent for him to do so, and to operate with the Board in that behalf. Large blocks must be submitted to the control of the Board by the Block Committee, the land in each case to be placed under the control of the Board by the owners of the land. The owners of the blocks should have the right to submit them to the Board and instruct the Board as to the area which they are willing should be leased, and the area which they desire shall be retained for their own occupation and cultivation. Then, when the land is placed in the hands of the Board it will be the duty of the Board to administer that land to the best advantage to the owners thereof; and I say that none of the lands in the East Coast district should be allowed to be alienated by lease either by individual owners or by the owners in common of any such block of land. I say, if a single individual or a number of individuals or a hapu owning any land are allowed to make private arrangements by leasing such land, that it will simply again result in the evil leases of which we have had experience in times past; but I believe that if two or three or four, as the case may be, of the owners of a block of land wish that it should be leased—go to the Board and inform the Board of their desire that the land should be leased or otherwise dealt with—then, having placed the Board in possession of all the necessary information, it simply remains for the Board to give its sanction, and to carry out the wishes of the owners, and I have no doubt that that will obviate any further trouble in connection with Maori leases. But, as to farming operations, the Maori people are themselves entirely competent to manage all matters in connection with farming operations, and if anything should crop up that they feel themselves incompetent to deal with, then let them submit that matter to the Board for the Board to administer. But I do not wish that the Board should be given the power to allocate the portions of the land retained by the owners for any particular purposes, such as kaingas, or lands for cultivation, or sites for churches or other buildings : I say that all that should be done by the owners themselves. It should be for the owners to tell the Board what part of the land they propose to lease, and what part they propose to retain for any particular specified purpose, and then, having informed the Board of their wishes, it will be the duty of the Board: to see that their wishes are consistently carried out. Now, the authority overshadowing the Board; will be the Government and the Ministers composing such Government, whose duty it will be to pro-*
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tectJhe Board, and the interests of the people and their lands through that Board —the Government to have authority to lay down certain lines of action with regard to the administration and working of the lands. I would not be willing that any Board should be constituted and given the sole and only power to manage and administer the lands, because it would be possible in that event for, say, the President or Chairman of the Board to decamp with the money, which might be a large sum, £4,000 or £5,000 perhaps—he might disappear altogether, and the Maoris owning the land would be unable to trace his whereabouts. That is why I desire to see the Government have full authority or control over the Board. My second reason for wishing so is with regard to cases where the Board might wish to borrow money, or the owners of land might wish to borrow with a view to farming and improving the land. If the European people knew that the Government was the head and controlling authority of the Board, then they would have no hesitation to advance loans on the land, knowing that they were advancing to a responsible body in so doing. Now, one of the principal reasons why I am so desirous that this Board should be constituted without delay is that there are so many ways and means whereby Maoris' lands are seized and taken away from them. They are seized for debt, again they are seized under mortgage, and again they are seized under survey claims ; therefore I wish the welfare of the East Coast Maoris to be placed in the hands of the Government —let their interests be taken out of the hands of private Europeans. I will explain the position in which the East Coast Maoris found themselves while they were at the mercy of private Europeans—because under the existing laws the Maoris distinctly are at the mercy of Europeans, who can cause all sorts of trouble and annoyance, and breed disputes and discord, which end in the Maoris' lands passing from them. But if this Board is constituted, then many matters, some of which I shall enumerate—disabilities under which the Maoris now labour— will be removed. First of all the stamp duty, and then payment of private agents and Government agents for land-purchases, will be done away with, and lawyers will be done away with—that is to say, lawyers will no longer be allowed to charge fees —and interpreters will be got) rid of, and the Europeans who make use of certain Maoris to induce old people and children to part with their interests will be done away with, and the land lying in idleness will be done away with, and then something can be done with it to enable it to bring in a return —because all these are the things which operate to reduce the value of leases of Maori land. The lawyers have to be paid, and interpreters have to be paid, and the Maoris going, about inducing others to lease their interests have to be paid — all these things have to be paid. Therefore I say that if we appoint a Board all that will be done away with. There will no longer be any Maoris, interpreters, Maori agents, lawyers, or any agents to be paid, and the land will no longer lie in idleness and be unproductive. Now, supposing, under the existing laws and regulations, I have land of my own which I wish to lease, all these things have to be paid — interpreters, and so forth—which I have already described —and if the land is valued at 2s. an acre, Is. per acre of that will be deducted to meet those expenses. Look at bush lands, for example: Supposing they are leased by Maoris to Europeans, they get about 2d. an acre, and if the bush is very good they may get as much as 6d. an,acre for it; and I have no doubt that, if the Board had control of affairs, perhaps Is..per acre would be obtainable for lands that are now leased for 6d., and the Maoris would be clear gainers to the extent of the 6d. they are now deprived of obtaining under existing conditions. And lands that Maoris now lease for, say, ss. an acre, if the Board had control of affairs they would probably get 15s. an acre for them, because the people who wish to lease Maori lands would then see at once and for all that there was no other possible means whereby they could get these lands except through the medium of the Board, and they must approach the Board then; because, as things are now, when Maoris have the right to lease their own lands, if a pakeha comes and offers a certain rate to a certain Maori owner of the land, and the Maori owner will not accept it, and the pakeha is not willing to give more, he says, " Oh, very well; 1 will go and treat with Mr. So-and-so," and he goes and approaches some other owner with whom he thinks or has reason to believe that he can make a more advantageous bargain as far as he himself is concerned. But if the Board is given control of Maoris' leases, then Maori, lands will be put upon the same footing as lands leased by Europeans to Europeans. That is why I so strongly endeavour to represent to the East Coast Maoris that it is necessary that they should, adopt this view of the case, because Native lands all over New Zealand have been injured and prejudiced under the existing state of things, because the Maori does not know how to exercise the control of his own affairs and the control of land if it is given to him. The very fact of his having been given that power is one of the shown reasons why his land and property will pass away from him to somebody else. lam quite willing the Maoris should continue to have control of their own lairds in all matters with regard to farming operations, stock, grazing, and so forth. There is no reason why the Board should deprive them of that right. Another thing I think ought to be done is this: Where lands are shut up and not worked by the Native owners, the Board should be given power to make a stipulation: that if those lands are not worked or some return got from them within a specified time, then the Board shall have the right to take over the control and administration of those lands and see that something is done with them. That would still be for the benefit of the Maori owners— that is, with regard to people who are too lazy to work their lands so as to derive any benefit or return from them. Another thmg which is earnestly desired by the East Coast Maoris, and with regard to which I have presented petitions from them to the House, is that they should be afforded an opportunity to borrow money for the purpose of improving and working their lands—that they should be no longer bound down to dealing only with banks and other institutions from which they can borrow money nowadays, and where they have to pay large rates of interest. Now, I say that if we pass a law such as I have endeavoured to outline—embodying the main point which I consider necessary—l say that will be the condition under which we will be willing to hand over our lands to the control and administration of the
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Government; because the East Coast Maoris have realised and recognise now that they were' wrong in their original contention during past years that they themselves were entirely competent to control and administer all matters in connection with their own lands. They have proved their own incompetency to do so, and they recognise that. The proof of that is that there is only from a million and a half to, say, two million, at the outside, acres of land remaining to the East Coast people now. I should say that there were, perhaps, about ten million acres originally belonging to the whole of the East Coast Maoris, and they probably have not got more than a million and a half acres remaining of their own property. It is entirely their own fault that they have allowed their land to slip away from them. Therefore I say that the East Coast people have definitely and decidedly instructed me to represent to the Government that their present wish is that their lands should be placed in the hands of the Government to look after and protect. The principal matter above all others which the East Coast Maoris wish first of all to see accomplished is an absolute stop put to all purchases of Native land for all time, and in such a manner that it will not be competent for any future Government to again reopen the system of purchase. If that is not done, then they say the Government has not got our welfare at heart, and has no desire to further our interests. Now, as to the Board—as to the suggestions that have been made about the Board.—some people say, "Oh, the Board will deprive the Natives of their land and get rid of it for them." The East Coast people are satisfied that they need have no fear as to how the Board will act, because as time goes on it will be quite competent to correct and amend any matters that may need amendment or correction with regard to the powers or application of the Board's administration. Therefore I again say and urge, to the utmost of my power, upon the Committee that the first and foremost thing which the East Coast people desire is an absolute stop being put to all Native-land purchases. Well, it has been proposed that a new Bill should be framed and brought down. I say, let us establish the main principles in the Bill which was before us last year. I myself am absolutely satisfied as to the Premier's honesty of purpose in this matter. I have no hesitation in saying that I do not believe he has the smallest desire to in any way humbug or get the better of the Maoris. Therefore I say that I am now willing the Government should frame a Bill to Operate over the districts represented by myself and the two other Maori members of this Committee if it is done upon the lines which I have explained to the Committee. If Henare Kaihau still holds out that the Board to operate in his district should be composed entirely of Maori members, why not let him have what he asks for as far as his district is concerned ? If it is proposed that that should be done, and that Maoris should be given the right and authority to control and administer their own affairs, well, let that be done in his district as far as he is concerned, and I will support it. Why should they not be given the absolute right to do that if they desire it— as an experiment ? And if that experiment did not prove a success, then they could come under the operation of the Board eventually—as I say should be done. The reason why I say Ido not think that Maoris will ever be able to manage their own affairs to any really good result is because they nave got no method—they cannot make money, but they have to find it somehow. Well, if they think they have any means by which they can find the necessary money required to work out their idea, let them have the opportunity of proving it correct or otherwise. Of course, 1 may explain to the Committee that this is merely a sort of concessionary remark of my own. I have already told the Committee what the desire of the people whom I represent is —the purpose for which they have sent me here is to ask that the Board they advocate should be established in their district—should be made to apply to their district particularly, but the stopping of purchases of Native land should be made to apply to the whole Island. Then let the Maoris hunt about if they think there are any other views or ideas that they can suggest, and when they have decided upon them, and they try them, and they prove them, see if it is possible to combine and reconcile the two ideas. What is wrong about that ? 1. Mr. McLean.] He has said his district. Where are the boundaries, from what point to what point?— The Eastern Maori Electoral District. I say,if the Government is desirous, and the House is desirous, of doing something for the benefit of the Maori people, let them pass this Bill with regard to the East Coast, and let the operation of the Board in that East Coast District show whether or not we are justified in claiming, as we do, that it will be for the benefit of the people it should be done, and let the other portions of the country, if they realise that it is a desirable law, then ask that their districts be brought under its operation; if, on the other hand, they think they can suggest something better, and they do so, and if it is satisfactorily shown to be better than what we now advocate, then it may be right, and legislate in that direction; but the wishes of the East Coast people, as expressed to me, and as they have directed me to express them to this House and this Committee, are that the Board Bill — the Premier's Bill—be passed for their district. Well, now we have been told that it will be possible perhaps to frame a new Bill. Very well, I say, let the Government make whatever additions they think should be made. If it is the original Bill we are going to adopt, well, we have already got the additions drawn up, and if we are going to have a new Government Bill brought down I am also willing that that should be done—let the Government draw it up; but what I say is this, if the Government cannot frame the new measure they talk about, then, I say, pass the Board Bill. I have not the slightest fear of that Board Bill operating in any other direction than a beneficial one. Pass it so far as the East Coast is concerned. If the new Bill can be brought down shortly, pass it and let us have it, but I am perfectly certain that the passing of the Board Bill with regard to the East Coast should no longer be delayed. A man who is ill or indisposed cannot be expected to wait for an indefinite length of time before he is given his medicine, he wants it as soon as he can get it, but a man who is only suffering from merely a trifling complaint may be willing to put off the obtaining of medicine for its remedy—he can say, wait till this evening or some other day, without injuring himself seriously. Now, here is a matter I forgot to
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speak about just now—lands that are under any disabilities such as mortgages, or which are indebted in any other way, should not be brought under the operation of the Board, because these lands are already encumbered under existing laws, and therefore it would not be competent for the Board to deal with them. Wait until the encumbrances upon such lands are first removed, and then bring them under the operation of the Board ; but in the case of lands which are under lease to Europeans at the present time, the provisions of the new Act prohibiting the sale should be made to apply to them, and also the present European lessees should have no further power to renew the existing leases—any subsequent lease that he may wish to take up such European will be compelled to do under the new law. I think that is all I have to say. f'.' 2. Mr. Kaihau.] I understand you to say that you wish this Bill passed with regard to the East Coast alone ?—Yes, that is the desire with which I came from home down here—to ask that that Bill should be passed ; but now when I come here I find that it is proposed to bring down a new Bill in substitution for that. 3. Well, you say that you do not wish the Bill to apply to any other place but the East Coast ?—Yes, with regard to the Board only, not with regard to the stopping of other purchases of land—that is to apply to the whole Island. Of course, if you want a Board or Committee, yoti should ask for it to be established in your district. Of course that is for you to advocate. 4. You say that all sales or purchase are to be absolutely stopped ?—Yes. • 5. Well, sales to whom? Purchases by whom?—By the Government and by private purchasers. 6. Are private European purchasers buying Native land now?— Yes, they are buying small areas under existing European laws. 7. And do you mean to say that small areas of land, the property of only one owner, should be prohibited from being sold or purchased ?—Yes. As to persons owners of such lands to which it may be found right that the provisions of this proposed Act with regard to purchase should not apply—let the Government or the Board decide who those people are—people who have become to all intents and purposes pakehas. For example, there is one woman in our district—l refer to Airini (Mrs. G. P. Donnelly)—she is to all intents and purposes a pakeha, and she may wish that the provisions of this Bill should not affect her land. 8. You mean to say that people who hold lands in fee-simple under European law at the present time should be debarred from the privilege of selling those lands even if they wish to do So ?—Yes, all; and the reason that I say so is that this system of selling and buying Maori lands is the thing that makes us cry out as we continually do. A man sells all his land and then conies crying to the Government to give him some more. Why, there are some old Maoris in the Waikato who at the present time have actually sold their land—divested themselves of their interest in their land—so that it will be competent for them to become applicants for old-age pensions under the Act. Those are the kind of people whose actions annoy me very much. i 9. If you are the owner of a block of land which you hold under Crown grant or other description of title, under which you have the right to lease or mortgage or otherwise deal with that land, do you say that that power shouhi be taken away from you and the land virtually restricted in all directions ?—-Do you mean if it had been already leased or sold ? 10. Supposing that it had never been sold or leased, but that under the Crown grant title under which you hold the land you had a right to do these things ?—Oh, yes, I say if such land had never been dealt with. I say that, the provisions of this new Act should be made to apply to all such lands where powers to lease, mortgige, sell, or otherwise alienate existed in the title but had never been exercised. The provisions of this Act should not apply to where an owner has sold, leased, or mortgaged any land upon which up to the present time there had been no restriction—the new Act should not operate on such lands, because they are encumbered under the existing law. I will give you an illustration now in reply to your question. I myself am an owner of a block of land of 20,000 acres. Now, this particular '20,000 acres I have placed in the hands of my trustee —the person whose duty it is to look after all my property—and I have given this trustee my permission to mortgage part of that land for the purpose of paying any liabilities hanging over other lands of mine, and I have authorised him to lease other parts of this land for the same purpose. Now, I say that land such as that should not come under the operation of this new Act, but lands that are still the property of Maoris, and absolutely unencumbered, should be brought under the operation of the Act. In the case of lands, part of which have been purchased, the purchased portion should be cut off ;from the uiipurchased portion, and the unpurchased portion should be brought under the Operation of the Act. If there is only one owner remaining in a block of land which has been partly purchased, and he wishes to complete that purchase and sell his interest, let it be for the Board to say whether he shall do so or not. I say, if such owner was to go to the Board and say, " Well, I am the only remaining owner—all the others have sold, and there is fDO object in my continuing to hold my interest," then it will be for the Board to inquire into and ■ascertain whether this man has other lands sufficient for his support, and if they are satisfied that he has, well, let him sell. ; 11. Well, then, what I understand you to mean is this :in your case you hold land which is under certain encumbrances, which you say should not come under the operation of the Board, ■and in the other case which you suggest the man owns land which is unencumbered in any way amd he is desirous of selling. You are exempted from the provisions of the Act; he is not. How -do you reconcile the two positions?— What I say is, the Board should be given authority to furnish ; mohey to persons whose lands are encumbered, so that it would be open to owners of lands to go ; to the Board and ask for advances to pay off encumbrances which may be on their lands. ; : 12. Yes, yes, but do not you see that, according to the illustration you have given us, yOtir .land does not come under the operation of the Board—some one else is to find the money to* psy 3—l. 3a.
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off the encumbrances, but the other Maori you speak of has to look to the Board to assist him ?— No, what I say is this: that those of my lands which are in that position should not come under the Board, but that my other lands which are not in that position should corns under the Board. If the Board is willing to take over all mv labilities I am quite willing to hand them all over. Not only mv encumbrances and liabilities, but also mv sources of income, and every* thing else. What I mean by that is, all my encumbered lands and all mv unencumbered lands. My unencumbered lands would come under that provision of the Act which wonld prohibit any further purchase. I should be delighted to see the Board take over all my liabilities at. say, 3 per cent.—because lam paying 8 and 9 per cent.—or even at or 4 per cent. Why, I have been paying interest at the rate of 10 per cent, at the commencement, but it has now gradually come down to 8, 7, and as low as 6£ per cent, in some cases. 13. Very well, now, do you think that it will be a proper or possible proceeding; to take away the privileges that are held under Crown grants, or other titl s already issued in New Zealand?— How could it be done ? This is not superseding the authority of the Crown grant. It is simply showing that the Crown grant and all still remains the property of Wi Pere.that Wi Pere has the right to hand the land over to the Board if he sees fit. Then the Board will stand in the same relation to me as my hands do now to my body. I, myself, will still continue to be the body, but the Board will be the hands to carry out what I am now doing, so as to enable us to take advantage of the privileges which Europeans endeavour to reserve to themselves. The pakehas are a povertystricken people. Suppose a pakeha has only £100 in his pocket, he goes to Maoris and says, lease me such and such a place—perhaps he gets 10.000 acres of the land. These people lease the land to him, and he only originally has £100, with which he pays his agents and his legal expenses and all other costs in connection with the transaction. The deed passes, and he becomes the owner of the land under a deed of lease—he becomes the lessee of the land. Then this European may go and sell his lease, and, although he has only gone to the preliminary expense of £100, lie may get £2,000 by selling his lease to some other pakeha. 14. That is a very much longer reply than I wish for to mv question.—But you are asking me to disclose the misdemeanours of the pakehas, and lam doing so. All those things should be put a stop to. Now, supposing this European who has leased this land for £100 does not want to sell his lease, but raises money—he raises a loan on the security of the lease from some other pakeha, and buys sheep and cattle to stock the land, pays for fencing and so forth, and he begins to grow up into a big man. In a few years he has £2,000 or £3.ooo—profit that he has made out of this land; then he begins to purchase the interests of the Crown grantees—purchasing their interests with the money that he has worked out of their own lands. He then eventually develops into the position of being a rangatira over the Maoris who have placed him in a position of independence ; but, all the time, he would never so far demean himself as to bring the Maori owners into his house to eat at his own table. Oh, no ; he would send them away to the kitchen to have their meals there. Therefore, I say that we want a Board constituted to put a stop to these proceedings on the part of this kind of people. 15. Ido not think you can understand my question. I say that there are various descriptions of Crown grants. There is is a certain kind of title which is called a land-transfer title. Now, a land-transfer title, as I understand it, is a title of such description that no law in New Zealand can shake it, and do you say that all such titles as that are to be done away with?— No. I say that all such lands as that should be specifically mentioned, and kept out of the operations of the Bill. You will find in the Bill provision made to keep the thermal-springs district from the operations of the Board, or lands purchased by Maoris from Europeans. If you have land of that description, it is for you to say so. 16. Well, now with regard to putting a stop to all further land-purchases by the Crown, is not this advocated: because the Maoris are suffering injury under the present system of land-purchases?— Yes; they suffer under the Crown land-purchase system, and also under the private European system of purchase. They suffer in this way: The Europeans have already acquired 60,000.000 acres of land, 4.000,000 acres only remaining the property of the Maoris, and the 4,000,000 acres that remain the property of the Maoris are lands that are inaccessible and in ungetatable places—in a manner, so to speak, where the sun does not shine. 17. Yes; but, then, remember that there are no purchases by private pakehas now?— What do you say that for? There are. They still continue to purchase, and they still continue to lease. 18. Oh, yes, but that is only in the case of certain descriptions of land where it is competent for them to do so?— Well, I have said that if there are any blocks of land only partly purchased, let the part acquired by purchase be cut off from the unsold portion which will come under the provisions of the Act, and if the owners of the land want to complete the sale to the pakeha let them do it, but do it at once. 19. Well, now, as you say that the reason why it is sought that a stop should be put by the Government to all further purchases of papatupu lands—large areas still held by Maoris the title to which is as yet uninvestigated ; if that is the reason, do you not think it would be well that provision should be made to that effect in the new Bill which it is proposed to draft ?—Yes, that is One of the principal causes of our trouble. That provision should be passed this year. ; 20. I think I heard you say that this Board Bill had been prayed for by the Maoris, who presented a congratulatory address to the Queen. Now, I think you must be making a mistake in -saying that. I have no recollection of it. Was there any mention made whatever in that congratulatory address of such a thing as a Board Bill ?—Yes, there was something in the address which was equivalent to that, and this is what the Queen's reply was : She said, " Tell Wi Pere and his fellow-chiefs with regard to what they have said about the lands, that it is a matter which BiUst be for the consideration of my Ministers "; and she gave her instructions to her Ministers.
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Now, this is what the Minister has done : This is the measure that the Minister has framed with a view to carrying out the instructions that he has received frcm her. I say that this matter is contained in the address to the Queen. I think it says something to this effect: That the balance of the land remaining in the hands of the Maoris should be brought under the Lands for Settlement Act. However, here is the address :— " Petition to Her Majesty the Queen. —To our Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria.—Thie our address is an expression of the love and loyalty we, your aboriginal race of New Zealand, entertain toward your Most Gracious Majesty, our mother and protector, as arranged and agreed by us in the Treaty of Waitangi. Greetings to you, for by the grace of God He has prolonged your days to reign and occupy the Throne of your ancestors. We therefore, your loyal children (subjects), are always impressed, and pray that your days may be further prolonged by our Father in Heaven. On the occasion of your accession to the Throne New Zealand was your first infant colony. We therefore pray you, our Most Gracious Majesty, to favour us, your Maori race living in these islesunder your sovereignty, that as a memento of your anniversary and prolonged, dignified, and most beneficent reign over us we humbly beseech you to grant us, your Maori subjects of New Zealand, full rights and powers to reserve for ever the surviving portions of our lands, to serve us, your Maori people, as a mother would her children, to be as a succour to us for ever and ever. For we recognise that from the beginning of the colonisation of this colony up to the present, more than sixty million of acres of our lands have passed into the hands of private persons and the Crown ; the area, therefore, of our surving lands which we, your Maori subjects, still retain at present number five million acres, more or less. We, your Maori subjects, desire therefore to retain and utilise our surviving land ourselves, and any portions that, we may not be able to cultivate we are willing and shall be pleased tb lease for the purposes of settlement and development of the colony. We, however, have no desire to see our surviving lands pass from our hands, for we all recognise that this shall and will be our' only succour to keep us and our heirs together for ever. This, however, our wish, desire, and request, can only be given effect to by passing such legislation prohibiting for ever the sale of our surviving lands to the Crown and private persons. All the causes which brought about our troubles of the past on account of the misunderstandings between both races have ceased, and .now in its place reigns peace and quietness equivalent to the state of the many countries and people now living under your Majesty's most beneficent reign. Sufficient; and long may Her Majesty survive, and may God protect you and all the Royal Family, your Ministers, and Administrators.—God save the Queen! " 21. Very well, then, I take the reply from the witness to mean this : that there is no mention , whatever made in this address to the Queen of any Board Bill; but that the Government itself are the people who first brought forward the idea. 22. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] The Board Bill is not the Queen's; it is the Government's?— Yes, but this is what the Government did by direction of the Queen, that the Government should con- ■ sider the matters contained in the congratulatory address presented to her by the Natives. 23. Mr. Kaihau.] You say that you want the control and administration of all Native lands given to the Board ?—Yes, of such lands as are given to it by the owners—such lands as are not given to it, no. >.: 24. Well, do you understand what power and authority it is proposed by the Bill to vest in that Board ?—Well, leasing is what they should most generally go in for, in my opinion. Secondly, let them make farms for the Maoris themselves, and then the other provisions in the thing will be ■ that the lands shall be cut up into small areas —I mean to say, supposing a block of land contains 10,000 acres, cut it up into, say, four subdivisions, so that they can put the leases up to auction to the Europeans. That is what they are to do. 25. Then, you do not think this : that the Government is directly responsible for all the ills and disabilities that the Maoris have suffered vp■ to the present, and that if you constitute this Board under Government authority —I do not say this Government, but all Governments—that you will be opening up a further means whereby the Maoris will be made to suffer ? —No, because the Board will be directed by the law as to the direction in which they shall act. If they do not do so they will end in finding themselves in gaol. And if the Chairman of-the Board has been guilty of any misdemeanour his property can be seized. How is the Board to sell if sales of land are stopped ? The only thing that they can do would be to steal the money. Well, if they did that they would bring themselves at once under the hand of the law—they cannot get away from it. They will eat the bread of sorrow and gnash their teeth. 26. Well, you say if the Board acts in that direction it will find itself in gaol—that, of course, means the Government also —because the Government are to be the mana over the Board. Are you going to put the Board in gaol for doing what you have given it power to do—are you going to put it in gaol ?—Am Ito reply to that ? I did not give them any authority to steal the money. I gave them the authority to make money for me, but did not give them authority to make it easier for them to steal. I say if they do that they will end in eating the bread of sorrow. 27. Well, where is the money to come from—money for the necessary administration of the Board ?—That is provided for in the Bill. 28. But where is it to be derived from ?—There are many ways to that end. Supposing the Board had leased a piece of land for £120. Say the Board had leased a portion of the land belonging to my hapu for the sum of £120 per year, they would have the power to borrow £4,000. The £120 would pay interest on the £4,000, and the £4,000 could be devoted to improving the land, and it will be competent for the Government to vote a sum of money to defray the expense of the Board. ' 29. Then I understand that the land would be the security for the money to be borrowed in the manner that you have said ?—No; I say that the income and profit derived from the land: would be the security. '
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30. There is no explanation as to that in the Bill; is there any such provision-as that in theBill?—We are endeavouring now, at the present time, to find out some reasonable direction in, which it may be framed, but in the present Bill provision is made as to how money may be obtained. Now subsection (2) of section 32 of the Native Lands Settlement and Administration, Bill of last session provides: " The Minister, if satisfied after conference with the Minister of Lands, that the proposed works and expenses are reasonable and proper, may, in his discretion, authorise the sums applied for, or any less sum, to be advanced to the Board out of moneys to be appropriated by Parliament out of the Public Works Fund: Provided that the total which under this section may be advanced to any one Board in any one year shall not exceed five thousand pounds." 31. There is nothing in that clause ?—What is the good of asking questions like that. We are trying to arrive at something now. Subsection (3) of the same section reads: "The amount of such advance, together with interest thereon at the rate of five pounds per centum per annum, shall, by force of this Act, be a charge upon the income derived from the land benefited by the works, such charge being so adjusted as to be proportionate to the benefit." Supposing the expense incurred in the leasing of a particular block of land reaches as much as 6d. an acre, and the lands are leased for Is. an acre, well, half a year of the rent pays off the expense.
Feiday, 22nd September, 1899. Mr. Wi Peee's examination continued. The Chairman : When the Committee adjourned yesterday, I understood that Mr. McLean wished to ask Mr. Wi Pere some questions in regard to the statement that he made. Mr. Kaihau: But I have not finished my questions yet. The Chairman: I understood you had. However, I would just remind you not to occupy too much of the time in continuing questioning Mr. Wi Pere. 1. Mr. Kaihau.] Then, what you said yesterday, Mr. Wi Pere, was, shortly speaking, this : That all the Maori lands in the East Coast district were to be placed under the administration of this Board ?—Yes, if the people owning ohe land handed it, over to the Board to administer; but I added that all Native lands in that district which are at present unencumbered would come under that provision of the Board Bill, which prohibits any further purchase of Native land, the lands which are handed over by the owners to the Board for the Board to deal with would be dealt with by the Board, even where such lands handed over by the owners to the Board were encumbered or unencumbered; having been handed over to the Board the Board would administer them. The owners would have a perfect right to hand them over to the Board for the Board to work and administer. 2. Then, if the owners were not willing that the Board should have the control and management of their lands, the Board would have no right to touch them ?—That is so. The Board to have no right to interfere with lands which the owners were not willing to submit to the control of the Board; but the owners of such lands would themselves be entitled to farm or otherwise work the land as they saw fit. But what Ido say is this: that if the Board is constituted, and if owners of certain lands decline to submit their lands to the control of the Board and neglect to work them themselves, after the lapse of three or four years it should be competent for the Board to step in and compel them to work the lands. 3. Then, I understand that you advocate that this Board Bill should be passed as an entirely optional measure—that it shall be entirely at the option of the owners whether or not they see fit to submit their lands to the control of the Board?— Yes, but that the principal provision with regard to the prohibition of sale contained in the Bill should become law, and apply to all the lands the moment the Bill is passed whether they are encumbered or otherwise ; but the administrative powers of the Board should not be exercised until it is seen whether the owners desire that it should be done. 4. That is what I say ; shortly speaking, you mean that if the owners are not willing that the Board should administer their lands, the Board will not have power to administer them against the wishes of the owners ?—Yes; but if such owner should refuse to submit his land to the control of the Board, and is simply holding on to it for the purpose of letting it grow weeds and briars, and does not intend to utilise the land at all, then a clause should be inserted in the Act empowering the Board to take the control and management of such land out of the hands of such owner. But if the man is working and utilising the land, then the Board would have no right to deprive him of it. 5. Yes, well, I understand that it is entirely optional with the owner?— Yes, what I say is this : the principal desire of Native owners, generally speaking, is that they should retain the mana of their own land. Let them retain the mana of their own land, but they must work the land. If they like to work the land with their own hands, well and good, but if they like to put the Board in the position of their hands and let the Board do the work for them that will also meet the case; but if a man persists in holding on to his land then I desire to say that that man should have no power to lease it to any one, because if this man is allowed to be approached by private Europeans with a view to leasing his land he will simply be, as has always been the case, entirely at the mercy of those unscrupulous people who are known by the names of lawyers, interpreters, and other dishonest people of that kmd, and they will simply end in humbugging and hoodwinking him and giving him perhaps Id. per acre for his land. 6. But that is not a reply to the question?— Yes; but lam giving these discursive replies to questions that are put to me for this reason: I want all my listeners to understand that I am a man who thoroughly grasps the position. Ido not want to leave it open for any one of them to
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say, this man WiPere does not know what he is talking about—he does not properly understand the case—because your questions are really only directed to the head of the matter. Well, an eel is an eel from its head right down to its tail, and my reply embraces the whole of the body from the head down to the tail. 7. Well, then, as a matter of fact, although you say suspend the operations of the Board for a time, you do not really mean to suspend it at all, because you say that, if a man does not work and utilise his land as the Board considers he should do, then it is competent for the Board to take it from him and work the land on his behalf. The inference that I draw from that is that the Act is not to be suspended at all, but the moment it is passed it comes into operation ?—The Board will have no power to deprive a man —an energetic man who works and utilises his land—of his land, but in the case of a lazy and idle man they will have the right to take his land from him and work it. This Board is to be constituted for the purpose of utilising the land for the benefit of the owners of the land, because if a Maori's land is left to lie idle it has to pay rates and other demands, and where is the money to come from if the land is not worked ? The Board is to watch the people and see how they get on. Supposing a man has a lot of children who are crying out for food, and the County Council is collecting rates from his land, any other little pieces of land he may have other than those he is paying rates for, and it is lying idle, nor is he disposed to spend the money to buy bread for his children, then it is for the Board to watch and see whether such man works his land or not. If he does not work his land to provide food for his children, then the Board must take it from him, and work it for him. Ido not mean to say for a moment that the Board is to interfere with a man if he is acting as he should do; but if a man is either too lazy or too incompetent to work his own land for the benefit of his family, then the Board should come down in an amicable way and say, you are not doing what you should or ought to do—we will take the control of the land on behalf of you and your children. 8. Yes ; but the reply does not meet my question. However, I will ask another one : How is the Board to be constituted ? Are some of the members of the Board to be Europeans, or are they to be all Maoris?—lf it is to be a general Board for the district, I should like to see seven members—four of such members to be Maoris, and the remaining three to be Europeans. Then, if there are to be two Boards for the East Coast, I should like to see each Board constituted of three Maori members and two Europeans. But then, again, if there is to be but one Board for the whole of the East Coast Electoral District, let that Board be constituted of four Maori members and three Europeans. The reason that I say that is that the members of these Boards will be paid for what they do, therefore we should see that there are not too many of them appointed. But I think you asked me this question before. 9. Well, you say four Maori members and three Europeans. Supposing the Government say there are to be four Europeans and three Maori members ?—Well, I shall still hold out for my contention. If the Government in spite of that pass their own idea, well, then, they will pass it. 10. Do I understand you to say you will still object ?—Of course, I will not make any very strenuous objection, but the nature of my objection to pakehas is that they always want as much money as they can possibly get —between £300 and £500 a year. I would be entirely willing that the members of the Board should be all Europeans if they would be satisfied with small pay. I would not be afraid of anything so long as the land-purchases were at once stopped; I should have no fear of the Government or anybody else then, because I should feel that I was not justified in saying, if the members of the Board are all Europeaus the land will be taken away from us, because, the purchase of land having been stopped, it cannot be done. The only reason why I would like to see Maoris on the Board is because Maoris are willing to accept very small payment. I do not suppose that these Maoris would be able to do anything satisfactorily at first. They would not know how. When appointed they would have to be instructed by Europeans and learn what they had to do. 11. I heard you say this : that the seven members whom you proposed should constitute this Board are to be paid for what they do. Who is to pay them?—Oh, you have never seen the Premier's Bill. 12. I am asking you a question ?—The Parliamsnt is to provide money to pay them. 13. The Government ? Are the members of the Board to be appointed by the Government or by the House ?—The Government are to appoint the three European members, and are to ascertain from the Maoris the names of the Maori members whom the people desire should sit on the Board. I say that the Government is to have the sole mana, authority, and control of affairs with a view to securing the welfare of the Maori people. The only trouble is that Europeans have a fire which produces money, and the Maoris have not got a fire that they can make money out of; the only fire that they have got is one to boil potatoes. 14. I did not ask you that?—Oh, did not you people (the Committee) hear the question Henare asked me ? 15. I. am asking you about the procedure with regard to the appointing of members of the Board?— Well, you ask me who will do it. I have said that the Government are the people who have fires that make money, and our fires only cook potatoes. 16. Well, I did not ask you that, as I said before?— Very well, then; lam wrong. 17. Well, now, if these seven people are appointed members of the Board, what do you think would be a proper yearly rate of pay for each man ? —I do not think I can reply to that. Let our lord and protector, the House and the Government, say or fix what their payment is to be. 18. No; we are our own lords ?—Of course, it is not as though I was lord over these people. If I had the control over these people I should say £5 per man. If they were my servants I should be very much pleased if they would be agreeable to accept £5 per man per year. 19. How could they possibly hope to live upon that £5 per year and travel about the country in the exercise of their duties'?—lf they agreed to accept it and said it would satisfy them, it would be their look-out.
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2SP' 20. Do you think the European members of the Board would accept £5 a year as theirsole remuneration ?—That is why I say leave it for our lord and protector, the Government, to fix the price. The House would do that. 21. Well, supposing the Government say that each member of the Board is to be paid at the rate of £200 per annum ?—I should have nothing to say. The Chairman : Ido not think this line of questions should continue. It appears to me it is simply wasting time. Mr. Monk : I think it is very instructive, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman : I shall certainly stop that line of questions. It is certainly a waste of time. Mr. Kaihau : I want to see how Mr. Wi Pere is justified in claiming that if he gets what he wants and gets his Board appointed, the welfare of the Maoris will be absolutely secured. He does not appear to see that this will be a burden that will have to be met. If seven members of the Board are to be paid £200 a year each, that means £1,400. I think this is a matter that lam entirely justified in asking questions upon. If lam debarred from asking questions upon this sub-r ject, how am I to prove that the Board will not do injury ? The Chairman: Then the same line of argument will hold good in the case of Mr. Kaibau's views. Mr. Kaihau: Yes, very well, lam quite prepared when I come to give evidence about my Council—in support of these Councils—to answer any questions as to how the members of the Council are proposed to be paid, or any questions they (the Committee) may see fit to ask me; but if the chairman compels me to stop I suppose I will have to stop. The Chairman: If this matter is to receive due consideration the Committee cannot spare the rest of the session for discussing this one petition. Witness: Now I say if it is intended that the Maoris shall find the money to pay all these expenses, then I would draw the attention of the members of the Committee to this. In times past when a Maori leased 10,000 acres of land, he got only £100 rent for that 10,000 acres. Now, if we have a Board constituted whicli will be competent to attend to these matters, the administration of lands, leases, and so forth, they would get £1,500 to £2,000 rent for land for which they are only now getting £]00 —that must be for the benefit of the Maoris, and I say the Maoris must find the money to pay expenses—why not take these expenses out of the enhanced proceeds from the lands? The Board has been instrumental in getting the larger amount of rent, and even if they have to take as much as 1 per cent, let it be taken out of that, or supposing they have to take say Id. out of every £1 to meet the expenses, and they take it, I have no objection. The Board has been instrumental in getting that money. It is distinctly set forth in the Bill that Government may from time to time appropriate moneys, which are to be paid out of the consolidated revenue. Now, in some leases which have been negotiated it has cost £2,000 and £3,000 before the lease was finally completed. Now, where does all the knowledge and intelligence come in in a transaction of that kind? And I say that if the Board is once constituted it will do away with every one of those undesirable things—the Maoris will no longer be at the mercy of unscrupulous lawyers, interpreters, clerks, pakehas trying to obtain land, and Maoris who are willing for a consideration to betray their fellows. Why not give it to some competent person or body of people to manage, and then, if money has to be found to meet expenses, take at the rate of Id. per £1 out of the money so derived and pay these expenses ? I would not have made that statement if I had not been asked the question I was asked. The Bill is perfectly clear. 22. Mr. Kaihau.] Well, the members are to be partly European and partly Maori. The Board is to be constituted by some Europeans and some Maoris. That is what you say?— Yes. 23. And are all those Maoris to be conversant with the European language—all able to speak English—they will know how to speak Maori ?—No; I say that the European members of the Board are to be chosen from amongst Government officials or other competent Europeans who are experts in the Maori language. 24. Yes; but if the appointment of the European members of the Board is to lie with the Government, and the Government may not have Europeans who are experts in the Maori language to appoint, or they may not choose to appoint them, what would be done then?—Oh, well, I say it would be much better to have them all experts in the Maori language if it can be so arranged ; if not, if one individual can speak Maori that would be quite sufficient. 25. Well, supposing that a Board was co constituted that none of the Maori members could speak English and none of the English members could speak Maori, what would you do for an interpreter?—Oh, that would be for the Government to decide. If the Government had constituted the Board in such a way, they would have to find the means to provide for the necessities of life. 26. Well, that will mean that an interpreter will be required, will it not?—Oh, that is for them to say. 27. Are you not aware that lawyers do a great deal of the Government work at the present time; that they take a very considerable part in Government business ?—Yes, they do their own work. 28. And do they not get paid large salaries yearly ?—'The Government pays them. 29. Yes; but it is the colony that finds the money for it. It is not the members of the Government who pay it out of their own pockets ?—Of course, but then the Government are the people who control the moneys—the property of the colony. 30. Yes. Well, that would be an encumbrance, or a demand that would have to be met. That would also have to be met by the Maori lands?— No. 31. Well, then, where is the- money to come from to pay these Boards. Is it to fall down from heaven especially for that purpose ?—Whatever sum of money is appropriated by the House for that purpose. i -,< i
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32. I will leave that question then, because I cannot get a direct reply. No other question applies than the one I have already put?—l am not going outside of the present question that is before us, and I do not care if you spend three or four days in asking me that question, I will always give you the same reply. 33. lam going to ask you a new question now. You said just now that Maoris as a people were too ignorant and too incompetent to be able to administer their own lands. Did you not ?— Is that because I said that Maoris had no fire over which they could make money ? You have no right to twist that into that meaning. 34. You said just now that the land should be placed under the control of the Board ; that if the Maoris were given the sole control they would not know how to do anything through ignorance and incompetency, but all they knew how to do was to cook food for themselves. I want to know if you are serious in saying that ? —I have said the Maoris could not manage these matters. They have no money, in the first place, which would enable them to do so. 35. Very well, supposing they had the money, could they do it ?—Yes. 36. Then, the Maoris are not ignorant people, if that is the case. -That is satisfactory to me, then ?—lf they had the money they could do it. 37. Then the Maoris are an intelligent and responsible people ?—Oh, sometimes yes, and sometimes not. Sometimes they spend and fritter away money foolishly and ignorantly. 38. Now, supposing the Maoris wish to control, manage, and administer their lands, and prove their capacity to do it, and do not want the Government to interfere in any way except to advance them money, would you be willing to agree to that?— Quite willing, if the Government could see their way to advance the money to them. If you want that to be given to the Waikato district, I am quite willing to support you. lam talking now of what refers to the East Coast. I have absolutely no objection whatsoever to make, if you ask that all the members for the West Coast district should be Maoris—no objection whatsoever. 39. I think I had better stop asking any more questions. Witness : Now, there is a matter that I forgot to state yesterday, when I was asked by Mr. Carroll to state what were my desires with regard to the East Coast district. Now, I shall shorten what I shall have to say so as to put it in a clear and concise manner for the Committee generally, and Mr. Carroll, who asked me the question originally. lam here sitting in this House in this Parliament for the purpose of getting this Bill passed. I gave my reason yesterday. Now, as Mr. Carroll asked me to give reasons which would enlighten the Government and assist them in framing a new measure, I will proceed to do so now. The first matter which is ardently desired by the East Coast people is : put an absolute stop to the purchase of any Maori land that is now unencumbered. That is the first ground. The second ground is, constitute a Board. The Board having been constituted it can then be optional for the owners of the land whether they put their land under the operation of the Board or withhold it from its control—the Board to be given the power to set up Block Committees—all blocks owned by a number of persons to have their respective Committees appointed—a District Committee to be set up as a Court to deal with land rights and titles. I say that there should be five districts in the East Coast. These Committees to be at the direction of the Board, and to act upon its instructions if required by it to inquire into the title or position of any land. These Committees to inquire into and adjudicate upon all land questions, rights and titles. If one Committee finds ie is not competent for it to deal.with any question, then the Board shall have the authority to call another one—each Maori district to set up the people whom they decide upon as the most proper to hold the position of members of such Committees. The Board to decide upon the question. These appointments by the Board of District Committees to be sanctioned by the Minister. Those are the principal matters. Now, those are the principal proposals, and all the widening out and further application of these matters are to be drawn up and embodied by you in the Bill which is to be brought down. What I wish to see passed is the Board Bill, and here are my amendments to that Board Bill. You people say no, frame a new Bill; very well, then, I have given you the principal reasons that I wish to see embodied in that Bill. But I look upon this departure as nothing more or less than a desire to delay matters so that neither this Board Bill will pass this session nor any other measure which will prohibit the Government from continuing to purchase Native land. 40. Hon. Mr. Carroll.] Well, if they would only shorten the proceedings we might do something ? —What I say would take no time if people would only see their way to support me. I say take this Bill at 2.30 p.m., lay it before the House, pass it, and have done with it. You do not want that. You want to see the whole Island brought into my district—the East Maori Coast Electoral District. Why not draw up a separate measure to meet with Mr. Kaihau's views if he wants it, and let me have this to apply to the East Coast? This is the second year that the East Coast has been treated in this way. Why should Ibe humbugged and misled, and bamboozled in this way, when I know perfectly well what it means ? They say, Oh, well, we will pass a short clause to put a stop to Native-land purchase, and then at the same time leave a door open for the East Coast lands to be seized and taken away from us through the medium of survey liens, mortgages and other matters of that kind. The East Coast Maoris have thoroughly made up thsir minds that they understand the position, and they have no fear of the Board operating to their disadvantage—even if every member of that Board is to be European the East Coast people are willing to accept that. 1 am exceedingly angry and wroth, and annoyed with the Government for the way in which it has treated me and tried to drag me into the proceedings that the other districts wish to carry out. I have a name of my own. lam the East Coast. That is all I have to say, and do not anybody ask me any more questions. There is no object in asking me any further questions-. • The. Chairman.] Mr. Kaihau has put (in printed form) before the Committee this morning his views with regard to his district. Mr. Wi Pere has again put his views before the Committee this
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morning, and we have had Mr. Hone Heke's views. All this has been taken down by a reporter, and it appears to me the Committee will not have much difficulty in deciding upon the course to adopt, and of reconciling the different opinions expressed by those Maori members ; and I think it would facilitate matters if the Committee will agree to take these views as expressed by the Maori members, and devote a morning in the endeavour to reconcile them where there is any difference of opinion, and to agree upon one common platform as to what legislation may be introduced to meet the views of the Natives. It appears to me that there is one common ground of grievance amongst these views, with regard to the future disposal of their lands. If the Native members have expressed the views of the Natives in their districts, it is quite evident that the desire of the Natives is to stop the future sale of Native lands. That seems to be the unanimous wish of the Natives. Then, again, I think they are unanimous in their ideas to bring about some way of managing their lands differently to what obtains at the present time. There seems to be a slight difference of opinion as to how that is to be brought about; but, to my mind, the difficulties are not insurmountable, and, if they go on the principle of yielding a little, I believe the Committee will have no difficulty in reconciling what is apparently the difference of opinion between them. Now, I think if the Committee would agree to meet together with the one object of endeavouring to bring about a unanimous desire with regard to the different views expressed by the Natives, I believe the Committee would arrive at some conclusion which will be acceptable both to the Natives as well as to the Europeans. Ido not think the Committee should have any difficulty in dealing with the details of the scheme proposed to bring about the desire of the Natives with regard to their land. These are the lines for the Committee, and we will be glad to hear any of the other members express their opinions with regard to the best course to be pursued. Hon. Mr. Carroll] I do not suppose that we can go fully into the consideration of the question to-day, but I see Mr. Kaihau has expressed his ideas in a list of clauses contained in the paper now before the Committee. I think there will be, before we meet again, ample opportunity for Mr. Wi Pere and Mr. Heke to submit similar abstracts representing their ideas on the different questions, and we will take the three together the next day the Committee meets, and-go through them as well as we can.
Clauses proposed by Mr. Raihau, M.H.E.
WESTERN MAORI ELECTORAL DISTRICT. Council of members to be constituted for the. Western Maori Electoral District. ' Council to have power — (1.) To appoint hapu or tribal Committees within the Western Maori Electoral District; (2.) To investigate titles, partitions, ascertain shares, appoint successors, and make orders for same. Orders to be forwarded to Native Land Court, and gazetted; if no appeal within two months, Judge Native Land Court to seal, sign, and issue same. If appeal lodged, Native Land Court to rehear case, and its decision to be final. Council may delegate claims to local Committee to investigate and report on. Council may adopt or vary any report of such Committee, or refer it back to the Committee or to some other Committee for further consideration. No land to be alienable by sale or mortgage to the Crown or private persons except by consent of the Council, and the Council shall not consent to any such alienation until there has been reserved for each owner sufficient land for his occupation and support. In the cases where the whole of the land of any Native is unsuitable for his support, he may either exchange same or sell, and purchase suitable land, through the Council or Board. Council forthwith to proceed to allocate land for occupation and support of each Native and his family and issue papakainga certificates. Balance of land of every such Natives to be alienable as follows: — (a.) Land when owned in fee-simple by not more than twenty owners to be alienable by lease by such owners subject to confirmation by Council, or by mortgage or sale subject to consent of Council.
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(b.) When owned by more than twenty owners a Committee to be elected, who shall transfer land to Council, and such transfer to take effect if no protest be lodged within one month. Council to deal with land as directed in deed of conveyance or memoranda attached to transfer. Lands dealt with under this Act not to be liable to Native duty.
MR. WI PERE'S PROPOSALS FOR THE NATIVE LAND ADMINISTRATION BILL. Precis of an Act for the Purpose of absolutely stopping the Alienation by Way of Sale of Maori Lands in New Zealand. 1. The sale of Maori lands in New Zealand to be absolutely stopped for ever in commemoration of the fifty-ninth year of Her Most Gracious Majesty's Government of New Zealand, and in memory of the length of time she has sat on the throne of her ancestors. 2. A Board to be constituted to manage and administer all Maori lands which may from time to time be placed by the owners thereof with such Board, and also for the management of Maori lands which may be encumbered and burdened in various ways prior to the passing of this Act. 3. The Board to have power to administer lands which are under the operation of various Acts, such as the Thermal Springs Act and suchlike Acts, and also all Maori lands within the Eastern Maori Electoral District now held in trust. 4. The Board and landowners shall appoint Block Committees, and such Block Committees shall, on being so directed by the owners of the land (for which such Block Committee was appointed) place the said land under the administration of the Board. 5. The Board shall appoint five local committees for the Eastern Maori Electoral District, which shall have power to investigate titles and define the relative interests in the various blocks of Maori lands, including papatupu lands, and shall have power to decide all matters therein as they shall deem just, and shall report on all the various matters submitted to them to the Board, whose decision on all such matters shall be final. The Governor in Council shall confirm such decision. 6. The Board to have power to advance money on loan to the landowners for the purpose of working the lands reserved by them as farm-holdings, on the Board being satisfied that such owner or owners will be able to repay the said principal sum, and interest thereon. 7. The Board shall not lease any Maori land which may be placed under its administration for a longer term than forty-two years. 8. On the expiration of the lease of any land the Board shall call a meeting of the owners of such land to decide, — (1.) Whether the said land should be again leased ; (2.) Whether a portion only of the said land should be again leased; (3.) Whether the said land should be subdivided into smaller holdings; or, (4.) Whether a portion or the whole of the said land should be reserved for farms for the owners thereof. 9. At the expiration of the term of any lease of any land the lessee thereof is not to have the power to demand payment for the improvements made by him or her on the said land. 4—l. 3a.
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10. If, in the case of any lands held by Maoris, it shall be brought to the notice of the Board that such land is being overgrown by noxious weeds, the Board shall direct that such lands be cleared and improved within a certain number of years, to be stated by the Board; and, if the owners thereof do not within the said period clear the said land, then it shall be lawful for the Board to clear and improve the same on behalf of the owners thereof. 11. The Government to appoint a special Commissioner under this Act, such Commissioner to be a Maori linguist. 12. The Board to have power to appoint other Committees to take charge of the sanitary matters connected with the Maoris, namely,— (1.) To direct and correct their domestic economy; (2.) To urge their children to attend school; and (3.) To inspect their houses and dwellings and their mode of living, &c. These Committees are all to be appointed on the non-payment principle, and there should be at least ten or more such Committees in the Eastern Maori Electoral District. 14. Any lands the purchase of which, either by the Crown or by private persons, is uncompleted, shall be handed over to the Board for the purpose of either completing the purchase, or of cutting off a portion of such land equal to the interests bought, or of giving other land in exchange for the interests so bought. Due consideration to be given to the equity or otherwise of each such sale.
Suggestions re Native Legislation. Me. Heke. Finding that it is impossible to get the Parliament to assimilate the laws operating over all Native lands to those controlling the lands of Her Majesty's European subjects, and realizing that the present Administration has made it their policy to enact and bring into operation over Native lands the Crown's right of pre-emption, I have deemed it my duty to consider and adopt one of two methods, that is to say : (1) The assimilation of the Native land laws to those controlling European lands in this colony; or (2) reserving Native areas entirely from sale, and asking that the Crown purchases should cease as well as private purchases—except by way of leasing. I am, under the existing circumstances, in favour of the prohibition and reservation of all Native lands (with exceptions, according to the circumstances of some of the owners). lam also in favour of a Board being constituted. Board to consist of Europeans and Natives. Europeans to be nominated by the Governor, and the Natives to be elected by the Maoris of each district. Native districts to be created. Powers of the Board. —(1.) The leasing and the administration of all lands placed under its control. (2.) Board not to act on its own motion, but in leasing or administrating any land it must obtain its directions from the owners of any land by an application from such owners. Board not to have any judicial functions. (1.) Board not to exercise or usurp any of the functions of the Native Land Court. If the Native Land Court is to be abolished then I would suggest a substitute to be created in the following manner:—(l.) That two bodies be constituted—one to be the " General Committee," the other to be the " District Committee." Such Committees to consist of Maoris and Europeans. The General Committee to be a Court of Appeal. The District Committees to undertake the work of investigations, inquiries, partitions, successions, allocation of interests, and making orders for same, except as provided under head of Papatupu Lands. Papatupu Lands. —That all hapus, sub-hapus, families, and individuals alleging to have a right to any papatupu lands after the passing of this Act shall elect a committee from amongst themselves, such committee to be called the "Papatupu Committee," or Native-land Committee, the names of the members of such committee to be recorded in a record book, and such book to be the property of the Begistrar of the district. Its Functions. —(l) To ascertain the hapus, sub-hapus, families, and individuals properly interested; to record a list of the owners; and (2) to locate the outside boundaries, hapu boundaries, sub-hapu boundaries, family boundaries, and individual boundaries if convenient, and comply with the wishes of the owners. All proceedings under this head must be recorded, and it must give the cause, the reasons, and source of all claims to such lands, whether it is by : — (1) Ancestry (mana), (2) conquest (ringa kaha), showing (a) by whose mana the territory was protected from outside raiders and attacks, (6). for how long did such mana exist, (c) through what families was such mana held, (d) who are the nearest descendants. Members of the hapu or hapus claiming ancestry as their rights must show source in usual way: (3) Occupation; (4) gifts and
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pakuhas or marriage gifts; (5) Aroha, &c, and all other conditions, modern or old, under Native customs or otherwise. All such proceedings to be recorded in a record-book ; such book to be the property of the Registrar of the district. A survey of all such papatupu lands can only be made after a settlement is come to in open meeting by the Papatupu Committee. Provisions authorising surveys under the existing laws applicable to Native lands shall not apply to papatupus after the passing of this Act. All such settlements to be confirmed by the District Committee, but, should the Native Land Court be continued, then by the Native Land Court. Block Committees. —ln blocks where there are a number of owners, and where the land cannot be conveniently partitioned on account of the large number of owners and the smallness of such partitions when cut up, which would render such shares or sections valueless, the value of which would be consumed in survey expenses : such owners to elect a committee out of their own number, such committee to be called the Block Committee. Functions of the Block Committee. —To execute all papers or make any applications vesting the land in the Board, or to carry on any works of improvement or any work that the majority of the owners of such lands desire to have done. The Block Committee not to act in any matter whatever until directed so to do by a majority of the owners of such land in an open meeting of themselves called for such purpose. All such proceedings to be recorded in the Block Committee's record-book, such book to be the property of the Eegistrar of the district. Stamp Act. — Under this Act the Native stamp duty to be similar to that paid by Europeans on European conveyances. A Board of experts in Maori customs and usages to be established to form a common law for the guidance of the Native Land Court, or any other tribunal that is called upon to deal with Native lands. These are my views, shortly stated, to meet the desires of my friends, the Maori members representing the Eastern and Western Electorates, and also to meet the policy of the Government as set out in their Bill of last year, advocated by Wi Pere. I reserve the right to oppose any legislation that proposes to take away too much individual mana, or the mana of a number of owners to their own properties, and have such mana concentrated in the hands of a constituted body. Constituted bodies under this Act must only exercise administrative powers, and at the request and direction of the parties seeking their aid. The full desires (of the Maori Federated Union) expressed at Waitangi in March last I reserve. Approximate Cost of Paper.— Preparation, not given ; printing (1,379 copies), £15 10».
By Authority: John Mackay, Government Printer, Welliagton.—lB99. Price Is.]
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[Translation.] 1899. NIU TIEBNI.
KOMITI MO NGA MEA MAOEI: PIRE E MEATIA ANA KIA MAHIA HEI WHAKANOHONOHO XI TE TANGATA HEI WHAKAHAERE HOKI I NGA WHENUA MAORI. (NGA KORERO I KOREROTIA XI TE AROARO 0 TE KOMITI MO NGA PITIHANA E PA ANA XI TAUA MEA.) TE AUHANA, TIAMANA (MR. R. M. HOUSTON, CHAIRMAN). [Hei roanga atu tenei mo 1.-3 a., 1898.]
Pitihana No. 303.—Na Henake Kaihau i tuku kite Whare. Xi te Honore Pika me nga Mema Honore o te Whare o Earo c noho huihui ana i roto i te Paremete. Tβ pitihana a nga Maori c mau ake nei nga ingoa c ata whakaatu ana :— 1. Ko nga kai-pitihana he tangata Maori no Nui Tireni, he mea whiriwhiri c nga hapu c nga iwi o roto i te Takiwa o te Tai Hauauru hei hari mai ki o koutou aroaro i nga tino mamae me nga mate c peehi nei i runga i te iwi Maori i raro i nga ture mo nga whenua Maori c mana nei. 2. E tino mate ana nga iwi Maori i te mahi a te Kooti Whenua Maori me nga ture whenua Maori o naianei. 3. I te mea kei te hiahia matou kia mau ki a matou nga toenga o o matou whenua hei kainga hei oranga mo matou, na reira ka inoi matou ki to koutou Whare honore kia paahitia tetahi ture hei whakamutu i te hoko whenua Maori. 4. Me mahi he tikanga c taea ai te riihi o aua whenua, c kore hoki c tika kia takoto kau aua whenua kia waiho hei arai i te tupu haere o te koroni, a hei mate hoki mo nga iwi c rua. Na reira ka inoi atu o koutou kai-pitihana :■ — (1.) Ko nga hoko katoa i nga whenua Maori me whakamutu. (2.) B inoi ana matou, kite mahia taua ture, me whakauru he tikanga ki roto kia whai mana ai nga Maori kite pooti i nga mema Maori mo te Kaunihera Maori, a me whakamana taua Kaunihera hei whakahaere i o ratou whenua me nga tuku. (3.) Me hoatu c te Karauna he whenua hei rahui mo nga Maori kore whenua kua riro nei nga whenua i te raupatu i te hoko ranei kite Karauna. (4.) Me whakatikatika "Te Ture Kooti Whenua Maori, 1894," a me whakamutu te Kooti Whenua Maori. (5.) I te mea he tika kia terete oti o tetahi ture penei me tenei c inoitia atu nei i mua o te mutunga o tenei Paremete, na reira ka inoi atu o koutou kai-pitihana ki to koutou Whare honore kia tukua mai c koutou, i runga i to koutou matauranga nui, te ora c hiahiatia nei, a ka inoi tonu matou. Tupu Taingakawa me Tetahi atu. Pitihana No. 423.—Na Wi Pbbe i tuku kite Whare. Xi te Honore Pika me nga Mema o te Whare o Earo o te Paremete o te Koroni o Niu Tireni c noho huihui ana i roto i te Paremete. Tβ pitihana a nga Maori c ata whakaatu ana: — 1. I te mea kei te hiahia matou kia pumau ki a matou nga toenga o matou whenua hei kainga hei oranga mo o matou iwi, na reira ka inoi matou ki to koutou Whare honore kia paahitia tetahi ture hei whakamutu i te hoko o nga whenua Maori. 2. Me mahi he tikanga c taea ai te riihi i aua whenua i te mea hoki kaore o matou hiahia kia takoto kau aua whenua, kei waiho tera hei arai i te tupu haere o te koroni, a hei mate mo nga iwi c rua. I— l. 3a.
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3. E inoi ana matou kite mahia taua ture me ata whakauru ano he tikanga ki roto kia taea ai te whakatu etahi tangata Maori, c tika ana hei mangai mo te iwi Maori, ki roto ki tetahi Poari ma whakaturia he pera hei whakahaere i o matou whenua; ame hanga ano hoki eto koutou Whare honore he tikanga ki roto ki taua ture c riro ai ma ia takiwa ano c ata whakaae c mana ai taua ture ki to ratou takiwa, kia kore ai c pa he mate ki nga hapu c kore ana c pai kite inoi o tenei pitihana. I te mea he mea tika kia terete oti o tetahi ture penei me tenei c inoitia atu nei i mua o te mutunga o tenei Paremete, na reira ka inoi atu o koutou kai-pitihana ki to koutou Whare honore kia paahitia he ture pera te ahua i naianei. A ka inoi tonu atu o koutou kai-pitihana. Tamahau Mahupuku me Etahi atu tokorua.
Pitihana No. 114.—Na Wi Pere i tuku kite Whare. Xi te Honore Pika me nga Mema o te Whare Paremete: Tena koutou. Hβ pitihana inoi tenei na matou ki to koutou Eunanga mo te Pire Poari me nga whakatikatika i mahia c te Komiti Maori i tv ki ki Papawai it te tau 1898. Kia whakataua taua Pire Poari ki runga kite Tai Eawhiti me te Tai Hauauru hei ture mo to matou takiwa. A tena ta matou Komiti ka tukua atu ki kona hei hoa mahi tahi mo to koutou Komiti kite whakatikatika i taua Pire Poari. Heoi: Kia mana mai i a koutou te inoi a o koutou kai-pitihana. Enoka te Taitea me Etahi atu c 36.
Ko nga pitihana c whai ake nei he rite tonu te ahua o nga korero ki nga korero o No. 114 i runga nei, engari c tono ana kia pa te Pire Poari kite Tai Eawhiti anake :— No. 115. Tutanuku Tume me etahi atu 72. No. 397. Hoera Katipo me etahi atu 69. No. 116. Karaitiana Wirihana me etahi atu 84. No. 411. Hone Paerata me etahi atu 158. No. 168. H. T. Whatahoro. No. 412. Eru te Whana me etahi atu 109. No. 169. Tamahau Mahupuku me etahi atu 89. No. 413. Wiremu Potae me etahi atu 106. No. 170. Hautahi Aporo me etahi atu 110. No. 414. Moana Tautau me etahi atu 56. " No. 321. Apirana Tukotahi me etahi atu 60. No. 439. Heta Matua me etahi atu 10. No. 322. Aperahama te Kume me etahi atu 73. No. 440. Eetireti Tapihana me etahi atu 111. No. 390. Heta Hakiwai me etahi atu 127. No. 455. Paku Maki me etahi atu 288. No. 391. Wiremu Pikai me etahi atu 58. No. 456. Hare Matenga me etahi atu 61. No. 392. Tauha Nikora me etahi atu 11. No. 467. Hori Puru me etahi atu 366. No. 396. Ihaka Whanga me etahi atu 64.
Paeaiee, 15 o Hepetbma, 1899. PITIHANA A TUPU TAINGAKAWA EAUA KO TE EAWHITI. Ka patairia ko Hbnaee Kaihau. 1. Te Tiamana : Henare Kaihau, nau i tuku tetahi o nga pitihana nei kite Whare, ahe mea atu tenei mehemea he kupu au mo tenei putake, c hiahia ana ranei koe kite karanga i etahi kai-korero ? Henare Kaihau : Ac, he kupu ano aku. 2. Te Tiamana : B pai ana, me korero mai koe kite Komiti i naianei? Henare Kaihau : Ko tenei pitihana na nga iwi Maori ote Tai Hauauru. He pitihana tenei c whakaatu ana i nga whakaaro i oti i a ratou i mua atu o ta ratou tukunga mai i au ki konei kite kokiri ite Pire i whakatakotoria nei kite aroaro ote Whare ite tau 1897. 3. Kapene Bahera : Ka patai atu ahau ki a koe, ko c hea Maori o te Tai Hauauru tau c mea nei? Henare Kaihau : Ko nga iwi ra me nga hapu ote Tai Hauauru o tenei Motu ara, c mohiotia nei ko te Takiwa Pootitanga Mema Maori ote Tai Hauauru. E whakaatu poto ana tenei pitihana i nga whakaaro o nga tangata tekau mano i tuku mai ra i ta ratou pitihana hei whakahe i te Pire Poari ite tuunga ote Paremete ite tau kua hori ake nei. Na reira, i runga i nga mate me nga raruraru kua pa ki a ratou mai o mua a taea noatia tenei ra, kua tuturu to ratou whakaaro me tuku mai c ratou he pitihana kite Whare he tono kia mahia he ture i tenei tuunga ote Paremete ara tetahi ture c paingia ana etc Whare. Na reira hoki i inoitia ai kia tino uiuia a kia tino whiriwhiria, nga take c whakaaturia ake nei etc pitihana nei. E tono ana te pitihana kia whakaturia he Kaunihera Maori hei whakahaere, hei riihi, i o ratou whenua, i.raro ano i etahi tikanga ma te Paremete c whakaae. Na, ite mea eki ana nga iwi me nga hapu Maori kei te pa he mate ki a ratou ite Kooti Whenua Maori, na reira ka inoi ratou kia whakakorea atu te Kooti Whenua Maori. Na mo te rarangi o te pitihana c tono nei kia whakahaerea c te Whare tetahi tikanga hei whakamutu i te hoko whenua Maori, kei te mohio pea te Komiti kite nui ote mate cpa ana ki nga Maori i runga i nga tikanga hoko whenua c mana nei; ako tetahi, ki to matou whakaaro, kite tirohia te iti rawa o nga toenga whenua c mail nei i nga Maori, he mea tika rawa kia wehea c te Kawanatanga etahi whenua o te Karauna hei rahui a hei oranga mo nga Maori kore whenua. Otira ki taku mahara kaore kau he take c whakamarama roa ai au i enei mea, kei roa noa iho te Komiti i au
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notemea kua mahamaha noa atu nga whakaatuaturanga me nga whakamaramatanga kite Whare me te Komiti nei i nga take c mau nei i roto i te pitihana, na reira kei te mohio noa atu koutou ki nga putake o roto ite pitihana nei; a mehemea he tino hiahia to te Kawanatanga kite whakatutuki i nga hiahia o nga wahanga c rua ote iwi Maori, a kite whakahaere kia paahitia tetahi ture c paingia ana c te Whare, heoi ka whakaae matou kia whiriwhiria a kia korerotia tetahi Pire pera te ahua. Me ki atu au kite Komiti ko tenei pitihana c whakaatu ana i nga hiahia ote tekau mano tangata c tautoko nei i Pire Kaunihera Maori, a ko ta matou c hiahia ana i naianei ko taua Pire kia whakahaerea, ara, kia kowhiria atu etahi o ona rarangi c kitea ana te pai, a kia honohonoa atu kia whakaurua atu ranei ki roto kite Pire c meatia nei kia mahia c tatou i naianei. Ko ia tenei te take i tukua ai kite Whare tenei pitihana, ara, he mahara no matou tera pea ka taea te whakakotahi o etahi o nga tikanga o nga Pire c rua, ara, o te Pire Kaunihera Maori raua ko te Pire Poari Whenua Maori a te Kawanatanga. Engari, me ki atu au kite Komiti, kite kore te Kawanatanga c whakaaro ki nga hiahia o te tekau mano tangata o te Tai Hauauru i tuku pitihana mai nei ki konei i tera tau hei tautoko i te Pire Kaunihera Maori a i whakahe nei i te Pire Poari Whenua, kaati, kaore kau he tikanga c tautoko ai matou me nga iwi o Te Tai Hauauru i te Pire Poari Whenua Maori a te Kawanatanga, notemea he nui rawa nga iwi Maori kaore ite pai ki taua Pire ate Kawanatanga. Kia korero a Hone Heke, mana c whakamarama atu kite Komiti nga whakaaro o ona iwi puta noa ite Takiwa Pooti ote Tai Tokerau. Na reira ka mea atu ahau kite Komiti me ata titiro c tatou nga taha katoa o tenei putake, a me tau i a tatou tetahi aronga mo te Pire, ka ripoata atu i te mea i oti i a tatou kite Kawanatanga, ka tono atu ai kite Whare kia whakahaerea he Pire c ngata ai nga hiahia o nga iwi Maori ote Motu o Aotearoa. Xi taku mahara me mutu i konei aku korero i naianei. Tenei, c noho nei, tetahi o nga kai-pitihana, me tuku ia kia korero i ana kupu. 4. Te Tiamana : He pai pea me korero tonu a Henare Kaihau a me whakaatu mai c ia ana mea c hiahia ana kia mahia ki roto kite Pire. Henare Kaihau : Ac ; he pai ra tena, mehemea kua tuturu te whakaaro o te Kawanatanga ki runga kite aronga kua korerotia ake nei c au. Te Tiamana: B hiahia ana rate Komiti kia rongo atu iau korero mo te Pire ite tuatahi. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, c pai ana. Te mea tuatahi, me whakatu he Kaunihera Maori, kia taea ai c ratou te whakahaere nga whenua Maori i runga i nga tikanga c puta ai te ora ki nga iwi Maori. Xi te whakaaetia mai te mana mo te Kaunihera c tonoa nei c matou, muri iho i tera me homai he mana kia ahei ai matou kite pooti i nga mema mo te Kaunihera, ame whai mana aua mema kite whakahaere i nga mea katoa cpa ana ki nga whenua ote iwi tae atu ki nga mea epa ana ki nga kainga, kite noho a" te iwi, ki a ratou moni, ki nga mahinga kai, ki nga tuku whenua, me nga mea katoa c puta ai te ora kite iwi Maori. 6. Te Tiamana : Me Maori katoa koia nga mema o te Kaunihera ? Henare Kaihau: Kaore kau oku hopohopo mo tena ; kite whakaaetia etc Whare me Maori anake nga mema ote Kaunihera, tena te Whare c kite ka tino matau ratou kite whakahaere i nga mahi a te Kaunihera. 7. Te Tiamana : Ka patai atu au ki a koe, koi na koia te hiahia o te iwi Maori? Henare Kaihau: Xi taku, me Maori te nuinga o nga mema ote Eunanga Kaunihera. He pai ano pea kia whakaturia etahi mema Pakeha c te Kawanatanga c te Whare ranei hei ako i nga Maori; kaore au c whakahe mehemea ka peratia. Kei te mohio te Tiamana kite korerotia eau kia mene katoa nga korero c pa ana ki ta matou c tono nei, tena c roa rawa te taima o te Komiti c pau. Ko nga ruri whenua tetahi mea :Ka taea etc Kaunihera ena tv mahi te whakahaere, ara, nga ruri wawahi i o ratou whenua, kia kore atu ai nga raruraru c puta ki a ratou i aua mahi ruri tae atu kite Kooti Whenua Maori. Ko tetahi, me whai mana te Kaunihera kite hanga ota hei whakahau kia whakahaerea nga mahi i runga i nga aronga c kitea ana c ratou he tika, me te tupato. ano ki nga ture ote koroni kei takahia c ratou; ame whai mana te Kaunihera kite whakatu apiha hei whakahaere i etahi mahi, ara, hei wehe hei rahui i etahi whenua mo etahi hapu, kia kore rawa ai aua hapu c tae kite ahua c karangatia nei he "Maori kore whenua." I runga i nga tikanga c mana nei, kaore rawa c wehea ana etahi whenua hei rahui — ma hokona nga whenua i naianei, hokona ai kia pau katoa, kaore rawa he eka kotahi c toe ana. Ka hoko te Karauna i tetahi poraka whenua Maori, kaore ana whakaaro ki nga Maori nona taua whenua, ka ata wehe ai i tetahi wahi hei rahui hei oranga mo ratou. Ko ta te Karauna hoko he hoko i katoa te poraka, kia pau katoa atu i a ia. Na, i runga i tenei ahua ka nui te mamae epa ana kite iwi Maori, ara, ki nga mea o ratou c whakaaro ana ki to ratou iwi kia orate tupu penei me te Pakeha c tupu nui nei. Kei te mohio te Tiamana i tukuna mai he pitihana ki tenei Whare i te wa i kokiritia ai te Pire Whakatu Kaunihera Maori kite Whare. Otira kaore he tikanga c korero roa ai ahau mo enei mea i naianei, he maha rawa hoki, c kore c pau katoa atu i au i naianei ite poto ote taima; me waiho ake kia tahuri ra tatou kite mahi j. te Pire, hei reira whiriwhiria ai enei mea katoa tae atu ki nga wahi o te Pire kaore c paingia c te Whare, me nga wahi hoki c maharatia ana kaore c pai ana mo te taha Maori. Hei te ra c whirwhiria ai te Pire he mea tika kia patua atu nga rarangi kino te ahua, a kia whakaurua atu ko etahi rarangi c puta ai he ora kite iwi Maori. Ko taku tino hiahia kia oti tenei putake nui i tenei tuunga ote Paremete, kia tere ai te ngahoro atu o nga kawenga taumaha, whakamamae, c peehi kino nei i te iwi Maori i enei ra. Xi taku mohio kite whakaaetia te Kaunihera Maori i tenei tuunga ote Paremete, tera c kite tenei Komiti ka takitahi nei nga raruraru c tukua mai ma tenei Komiti c mahi, i te mea ka riro ke ma te Kaunihera Maori c mahi. Xi toku nei whakaaro heoi nga putake me nga raruraru kaore c tika kia tukua atu kite Kaunihera Maori ko nga hara kohuru tangata, ko nga whanako, me era atu hara kirimina taumaha, engari ko nga raruraru me nga putake katoa c pa ana kite whenua, me etahi atu mea, ka kaha noatu te Kaunihera Maori kite mahi kite whakahaere hoki i era. 8.- Te Tiamana: Ame tino kore atu koia te tuku pitihana mai ki konei ?
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Henare Kaihau: Kaore ra c tino kore rawa tena mea te pitihana, engari kite tv te Kaunihera ka tino iti rawa iho nga pitihana c tukuna mai ki konei. Ko tetahi, kite tv te Kaunihera, katahi ka mama ake nga mahi a tenei Komiti, notemea ma tera ka kore atu nga take nana i whakatupu mai tena mea te pitihana. Na, mo te taha ki nga hoko whenua, c penei ana taku kupu :.me whakamutu rawa atu —ara, nga hoko whenua ate Karauna. Engari kite tupono ko tetahi whenua c hokona ana, a kite marama kite Kaunihera kei te tika te utu me te wariu c hoatu ana mo taua whenua, he aha te he, te tukuna noatu ai nga tangata nona te whenua kia hoko i to ratou whenua, penei me- etahi tangata Pakeha c hoko noatu nei i te whenua ki ta ratou c pai ai, engari, me matua marama ano kite Kaunihera hei painga taua hoko mo nga tangata nona te whenua ka tuku ai kia whakahaerea. Xi taku mahara kua marama taku whakatakoto atu i enei putake kite aroaro o te Komiti. Kia tahuri tatou kite mahi i te Pire me ona rarangi me ona tikanga, hei reira ka tino whakamaramatia nga wahi katoa kite Komiti. E penei ana taku kupu : ma te Kawanatanga c whakatakoto ta ratou i whakaaro ai hei aronga mo te Pire, kia mutu tera, katahi ka whakaputa a ia mema Maori i ona whakaaro me ona hiahia mo te takiwa nana ia i pooti hei mema mo te Paremete. Xi taku mahara, kite tau ia matou, i nga mema Maori, te aronga mo te Pire, a kite tautokona matou c o matou iwi, nana nei matou i pooti hei mangai mo ratou ki konei, heoi, he mea tika kia whakamanaia c te Whare to matou hiahia ; engari kite kore nga mema o tenei "Whare c wkakaae ki etahi tikanga o roto i te Pire, hei reira, katahi ka tika tatou kite korero, kite whakamarama, a kite whakatikatika hoki i aua tikanga c whakahengia ana. Ka mutu i konei aku korero. Kapene Bahera: I korero a Henare Kaihau, ki tana whakaaro me tuku atu kite Kaunihera Maori te mana mo nga ruri, ma taua hunga c whakahaere kia ngawari ai nga uauatanga o taua mahi. He pehea te tikanga o ena kupu au? Henare Kaikau : E penei ana te tikanga o taua korero aku: tena ano etahi whenua Maori kaore i te paingia c nga Maori nona kia ruritia, i te mea c hiahia ana ratou kia pumau aua whenua hei whenua tuturu mo ratou. Heoi kau te ruri c hiahiatia c ratou ko te rohe potae o o ratou whenua, a na reira kite tau i te Kaunihera ko te rohe potae anake o nga whenua c ruri kaore he raruraru epa ki taua whenua. Ina hoki kite riro ite Kaunihera te tikanga, c kore c whakamanaia tetahi kai-ruri kia haere ki runga ki nga whenua Maori ruri ai kia matua whakaaetia ra ano c te Kaunihera. Tena ko nga ture c mana nei mo nga ruri, ka nui te uaua, notemea, ahakoa kei te kore hiahia nga Maori kia ruritia to ratou whenua, ka ahei noa atu te Minita Maori kite whakamana i tetahi kai ruri kia haere kite ruri i tetahi poraka whenua Maori ma tonoa etc tangata kotahi o roto i nga tangata nona te whenua ra. Hei tauira mo taku korero, me ki noa ake, tena pea kotahi rave rua rau ranei nga tangata t> roto i tetahi poraka, a tono ana te tangata kotahi o ratou kia ruritia taua whenua—tena pea kua hokona c te Kawanatanga te hea o taua tangata kotahi—heoi kua whakamanaia taua ruri, a pa ana he mate kite nuinga o nga tangata kaore nei i pai kia ruritia to ratou whenua. Muri iho kua tonoa kia utua c taua poraka taua ruri, hui atu ki nga initareti mo nga moni c rite ana mo taua ruri, me te piki haere tonu o aua moni initareti i ia tau i ia tau, a akina atu hoki, hei mate ano mo ratou, ko te here c mau nei i runga i o ratou whenua, c kore nei ratou c tukua kia hoko kia riihi ranei i to ratou whenua, a te mutunga iho tau ana aua moni o te ruritanga hei mokete ki runga ki to ratou whenua, me te tupu haere tonu o nga moni initareti. Heoi ano, waiho ana taua mea hei mate nui mo ratou; kite tonoa ratou kia utu i taua mokete-ruri kaore ratou c whakaaetia kia hoko i to ratou whenua ki ta ratou tangata i mohio ai kei aia te utu nui. Kaore hoki ratou c whakaaetia kia riihi ito ratou whenua kia riro mai ai he moni hei whakaea i te ruri, na reira, i te mea kaore kau he huarahi ke atu c whiwhi ai ratou ite moni, te mutunga iho maketeria atu te whenua hei utu ite ruri. Na, k taku, ka kore katoa atu enei tv mate, kore rawa c ara mai ano, mehemea ka tukuna kite Kaunihera te mana whakahaere mo nga ruri. 10. Kapene Bahera: Kaati, ko te tikanga o tau me whakamutu rawa tenei mea te ruri, c hara tau ite whakahaere. Kaore ano pea koe i tino mohio, ko te tikanga o tenei mahi ote ruri, he honohono haere i nga ruri tetahi ki tetahi tae atu ki nga tiriki teihana ; he kati ke tau i nga ruri kia kore c eke ki runga ki nga whenua c korerotia na c koe, c hara tau i te whakatakoto tikanga hei whakahaere i nga ruri? Henare Kaihau : Ac; c penei ana taku, kaua rawa he whenua Maori c ruritia kia matua whakaaetia ra ano c te Kaunihera Maori, notemea, taihoa pea, ka akona te iwi Maori a ka mohio kite mahi ruri, hei reira ka riro ma ratou ano c ruri o ratou whenua. Heoi taku c tono nei, ko te mana kia hoatu kite Kaunihera Maori. Notemea, kite kite te Kaunihera tera c puta tetahi painga kite iwi i runga i tetahi ruri tena ano c whakaaetia, a kite kite ratou he mate kei roto me whai mana ratou kite kati i taua ruri. Ma tenei ka kore tonu atu tetahi take nui c whakatupu raruraru nei i waenganui i nga iwi c rua c noho nei i tenei koroni. 11. Kapene Bah&ra : E hiahia ana koe kia whai mana te Kaunihera kite wehe whenua hei rahui aki te wawahi i nga whenua. Kaore ranei koe ite mohio me rehita ano c tetahi Kooti aua whenua c rahuitia na c wehewehea na c te Kaunihera? Henare Kaihau : Ac; ka mohio noa atu te Kaunihera Maori kite tuhituhi aki te whakahaere i tetahi pukapuka-rehita mana. Ka tiakina taua pukapuka c ratou hei rehitatanga mo a ratou n?ea i mahi ai, a ka rite tonu ta ratou whakahaere i taua mea ki ta te Pakeha c mahi nei i aua tv mea mo tona iwi. 12. Kapene Bahera : Engari c mea ana koe me tino wehe atu ta koutou pukapuka-rehita ? Henare Kaihau : Ac; me ata wehe he rehita ma te Kaunihera Maori, engari ma te Kaunihera etuku atu nga kape o a ratou mea i rehita ai ki nga Kai-rehita Pakeha kia riterite ai nga rehita c rua, notemea ma tenei ka mutu te amuamu me te whakahawea o nga iwi Maori mo nga mea c rehitatia ana, ite mea ka ai tetahi o nga rehita hei whakatika i tetahi; tena pea hoki ka whakaturia c te Kawanatanga tetahi tangata hei mema mo te Kaunihera Maori, hei apiha ranei mo te Kaunihera, hei tohuto'hu atu a hei ako atu i nga mema Maori o te Kaunihera ki nga huarahi c whakahaerea ai nga mahi rehita me era atu mahi pera.
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13. Eapene Bahera : I penei taku whakarongo atu ki o korero me tv hei Kooti tetahi ahua o te Kaunihera Maori hei whakawa i nga keehi katoa, heoi nga mea kaua c hoatu ma taua Kooti Kaunihera c whakawa ko nga mahi kohuru ko nga mahi tahae me era atu hara pera: c mea ana koia koe me whakatu te Kaunihera hei Kooti i waho atu i nga Kooti o te Koroni, pehea ranei? Henare Kaihau: Ac; c penei ana taku kite whakaturia he Kaunihera Maori me whakaae ano he mana whakahaere Kooti mona a me whai mana kite whakahaere i nga mea katoa o roto i tona takiwa c pa ana ki o ratou whenua, ara, mo nga mea c pa ana ki nga Maori anake, he pai rawa nga Pakeha kia noho mai i waho, ara, kia kaua c uru ki nga whakahaere mo aua mahi. He aha te pai o te hoatu Pakeha ki roto i te Kaunihera kaore rawa nei c mohio kite aronga o nga mahi ate Maori, ki reira whakaporearea ai i nga hiahia o nga Maori. Otira, i runga i tetahi aronga, kite kore te Whare c pai me Maori katoa nga mema o te Kaunihera, he wehi kei kotiti ke ta ratou whakahaere i ta te ture i whakatakoto ai—ki taku kaore ratou c pera, notemea hoki he mea whakatu ratou c te Whare. 17. Kapene Bahera : Kei te mohio pea koe, kite hoatu c te Paremete te mana c tonoa nei c ratou, ka tau kite Paremete te he kite kore c tika te whakahaere a te Kaunihera i ana mahi ki runga ki nga iwi me nga hapu Maori ? Henare Kaihau : Ac ; c tika ana tena kupu au mo nga ture katoa c paahitia ana c tenei Whare. Ka hoki mai aua ture hei mate mo te Kawanatanga kite kore c tika tana whakahaere i taua ture. Xi taku ma tv te Paremete i ia tau me whakatakoto ki tona aroaro nga pukapuka whakaatu i nga mahi katoa a te Kaunihera, a ma te Paremete c titiro te tika te he ranei o nga mahi a te Kaunihera. 18. Kapene Bahera: A, ko te mahi ma te Kaunihera, he whakahaere i nga whenua, he riihi i nga whenua, he whakahaere i nga ruri, he tapatapahi i nga whenua, a he whakanohonoho kite tangata ? Henare Kaihau: Ac. 19. Kapene Bahera : Me nga mahi pea hoki c riro nei ma te Kooti Whenua Maori c mahi me hoatu katoa ma te Kaunihera c whakahaere? Henare Kaihau: Xi taku mahara heoi te mana c hoatu kite Kaunihera Maori ko te mana whakahaere i o ratou whenua i runga i a ratou nei huarahi c pai ai. 20. Kapene Bahera : Tena, mo te taha ki nga mahi o nga tari a te Kaunihera, me tino tupato ia, a me tino tika hoki tana whakahaere i nga pukapuka rehita, i nga ota, me era atu pukapuka a te iwi? Henare Kaihau : Ac ra, me pena; c kore rawa ano hoki c tika kia takahia te ture. 21. Kapene Bahera : Mo nga ruri o ia poraka whenua. Kei te mohio pea koe me honohono nga ruri katoa puta noa i te koroni, ara, ma ruritia tetahi whenua Maori me ata hono atu ano taua whenua ki nga tiriki teihana; kite kore hoki c peratia c kore c tika ? Henare Kaihau : Ac. 22. Kapene Bahera: Xi te hoatu kite Kaunihera te mana c tonoa nei, aki te tahuri ratou ki te riihi i nga whenua, tena pea c whakatakotoria he huarahi hei whakahaere i nga tikanga c riihitia ai nga whenua, ara, hei whakatuturu i nga eka c taea te riihi kite tangata kotahi ? Henare Kaihau : Me whakauru katoa nga tikanga mo ena tv mea ki roto kite Ture wbakamana i te Kaunihera Maori, a kaua rawa c tukuna te Kaunihera kia puta ki waho o nga tikanga o taua Ture whakahaere ai. Xi te puta ratou ki waho he takahi tera ite Ture. 23. Kapene Bahera: A, ko nga mahi whakahaere ma te Kaunihera, he tapatapahi i nga whenua, he wehe i etahi rahui, he ruri i aua whenua, me era atu mea, a ko tetahi he whiriwhiri he whakaotioti haere i nga tautohetohe a te Maori mo o ratou whenua ? Henare Kaihau : Ac, i nga mea katoa. 24. Kapene Bahera: Na, he tangata koe kua waia ki nga aiahi Maori katoa, amo runga i nga mahi Pakeha, tena pea kua waia koe ki nga mahi paamu; ki to mahara ka taea ranei c te Kaunihera, ahakoa he Maori katoa ona mema, te whakahaere i nga mahi i runga i taua huarahi ? Henare Kaihau: Ac ; ki taku whakaaro kite hoatu he mana ki a ratou ka mohio noa atu ratou kite whakahaere i nga mahi i raro i taua mana. Ma ratou c ako penei me te tamariki c akona nei ite kura. Xi taku mohio kaore kau he uauatanga. Ka takoto noa iho. Ma te aha koia c uaua ai? Xi te tau ite hapu nona te whenua, heoi ano ta te Kaunihera he whakamana i te hiahia ote hapu. Na, kite hiahia te Maori kite riihi i tona whenua, aki te marama i te Kaunihera tera c puta he painga ki taua tangata, ki tana whanau, ki ana tamariki, ki ona uri ranei, heoi he mea tika kia whakamanaia taua riihi c te Kaunihera. 25. Kapene Bahera : Ma wai c tuhituhi te riihi, ara, c hanga nga tikanga mo roto i taua mea. Ma te Kaunihera ma wai ranei ? Henare Kaihau : He takoto noa iho tena. Me penei te mahi: kia takoto te Pire kite aroaro o te Whare, me whakauru he rarangi ki roto, hei whakatakoto i te ahua o nga riihi, ma tera ka mama noa iho. 26. Kapene Bahera: Mehemea he ngaherehere kei runga ite whenua c tupu ana, aka hiahia te Kaunihera kia whakaurua he kawenata ki roto kite riihi hei whakahaere i nga rakau o te ngaherehere, ara, kia ahei ai te kai-tango i te riihi kite rnahi i etahi o nga rakau, a kite utu i etahi moni paru mo nga rakau c mahia ana c ia, me pehea he tikanga? ' Na, ko tetahi, tena pea ka tupono ki tetahi whenua c riihitia ana, a c hiahiatia ana kia whakaurua he kawenata hei whakatakoto tikanga mo nga eka c whakapaia i ia tau, me nga moni c whakapaua ki runga ki aua eka. Ako tetahi, tena pea kua oti tetahi kirimerie te whakaae, kia wehea atu tetahi 50 eka o taua whenua hei mahinga kai ma nga Maori nona, otira i runga i te ahua o te whenua, kaore c taea te whakapumau o te wahi hei takotoranga mo taua 50 eka, ara, ka patohetia tetahi 50 eka, ka hiki he 50 eka ke atu. Me pehea he tikanga ma tupono ki ena tv ahua mahi, ite mea c kore hoki pea c taea te hanga he pukapuka mo ena tv whakahaere ?
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Henare Kaihau : Ka taea noa atu. Engari me ata waiho ena, kia tae kite wa c tahuri ai ki te whiriwhiri i nga ahua mo nga pukapuka whakahaere mahi. 27. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, ki tau, ka mohio ake kite whakahaere i fcaua ture tetahi Kaunihera i Maori katoa ona mema, ara, ka mohio ake tera i tetahi Kaunihera i Maori etahi i Pakeha etahi o ona mema, ahakoa he apiha matau na te Kawanatanga etahi o aua Pakeha, ara, he tangata kua ata akona ki era tv main? Henare Kaihau : E pena ana taku whakaaro, notemea c kore c riro ma aua Pakeha c hanga nga ture me nga tikanga; ma te Paremete tera mahi. 28. Kapene Bahera: E kore ra c riro ma tena c herehere o ratou whakaaro ? Henare Kaihau : Ka pera ; notemea hoki ka hanga he huarahi-whakahaere hei arataki i rafcou, kia mau tonu ai ratou ki runga ki aua tikanga. 29. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, me hiki ta taua korero ki tetahi atu aronga. Tena, kei te pai ranei koe me ripoata nga mahi katoa a te Kaunihera kite Paremete i ia tau i ia tau ? Henare Kaihau : Ac. 30. Kapene Bahera : A, c kore c tv he karaka ma te Kaunihera hei mahi i tena mahi? Henare Kaihau : Kaore ; ma nga kai-whakamaori tena mahi. 31. Kapene Bahera: Na, ko tetahi, i ki koe me hoatu he mana whakahaere whakawa kite Kaunihera, mo nga keehi tamana moni me era atu mea c puta ana i waenganui i te Maori me te Maori ? Henare Kaihau : Ac. 32. Kapene Bahera: Kaore ranei c pai me whakatu etahi Maori hei Ateha mo etahi takiwa hei hoa mo nga Kai-whakawa Tuturu, ma tupono ki nga keehi c pa ana ki nga Maori anake, a ki nga keehi hoki he Maori tetahi he Pakeha tetahi. Ka ngawari pea tera tikanga ? Henare Kaihau : Kaore. 33. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, me whakatu pea ratou hei Kai-whakawa Tei Pii ? .... Henare Kaihau : I penatia ano te tikanga i mua a kaore i pai. 34. Kapene Bahera -: Kaati, kei te mau tonu tau ki tenei na, me whai mana ratou kite whakawa i nga civil cases ? Henare Kaihau: E penei ana taku, me paahi c tenei Whare he ture hei whakatakoto tikanga c taea ai te whakatu etahi Maori hei Kai-whakawa Tuturu mo nga takiwa Maori, notemea, ki taku, tera pea c whakaturia etahi Komiti Maori maha mo ia takiwa puta noa i tenei Motu. A c penei ana taku, kite tupono he keehi c tautohetia ana i waenganui i tetahi Maori me tetahi Maori, me riro tena keehi ma te Kai-whakawa Maori c whakawa. Xi te tupono he keehi c tautohetia ana i waenganui i te Pakeha me te Maori, kaati, ma te Kai-whakawa Pakeha tena c whakawa. 35. Kapene Bahera : Kaati, c penei ana pea te tikanga o to korero : me ki noa ake, tera etahi Maori c hoki atu ana ki to ratou kainga Maori ite po—e hoki tutu atu ana, i haurangi pea kite rori, ki tetahi paparakauta, a kei te whakahoihoi kei te whakatutu ratou i taua wahi—e mea ana koia koe, me riro ma nga Kai-whakawa Tei Pii Maori c whakawa c whaina taua hanga ? Henare Kaihau : Ac ra, mehemea ra kua oti he ture pera mo taua kainga. Xi te hoki haurangi atu te tangata ki tona kainga, a kitea ana c haere haurangi ana i nga tiriti i te marae ranei o tona kainga, he mea tika kia whainatia taua tangata. Me riro tena ma nga Maori c whakahaere. 36. Kapene Bahera: Ina ke pea tau c whai nei. Me ki kua whakaturia i runga i tetahi Ture etahi Poari Kainga Maori, etahi Kaunihera Kainga Maori ranei, ara, me ki me rite te ahua ki nga Poari Taone Pakeha, ki nga Komiti Pakeha ranei, na me riro ma aua tv iopu tangata c whakahaere nga tikanga katoa mo nga kainga Maori kia ora ai te noho, c whakatakoto etahi ture hei peehi i te kai waipiro, c kukume nga tangata takahi i te ture kite aroaro o nga Kai-whakawa Tuturu kia whiua mo o ratou hara. He pai ake pea tenei tv whakahaere ita koutou c tono nei kia hoatu he mana nui ki a koutou, i te mea hoki ki taku whakaaro tena pea c puta he raruraru kite tukuna atu nga tikanga uaua o te ture ma koutou c whakahaere ? Henare Kaihau : Kei te tautoko aku korero i te pitihana c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Komiti nei, c tono nei kia whakaaetia he Kaunihera Maori. Kaore kau he kupu o roto ite pitihana epa ana ki nga Kai-whakawa Tuturu. Kapene Bahera : Kei te mohio au ki tena. Kei te whiriwhiri nei hoki tatou katoa i tenei putake, kei te kimi maramatanga mo taua mea. Kapene Bahera: Tena, kite riihi nga Maori i tetahi whenua ki tetahi Pakeha a tupu ake ana he raruraru i waenganui i a ratou, ma te hea Kooti c whakawa taua raruraru ? Henare Kaihau : Kua utua c au tena patai i au c patairia nei i mua ake nei c Honore Timi Kara. Xi te puta he raruraru i waenganui i te Maori me te Pakeha me tuku atu ma te Kaiwhakawa Tuturu ma te Hupirimi Kooti ranei c whakawa. Kaore au c mea ana me tu-a-whakatete tenei Pire ki nga ture o te koroni nei, a kaore hoki au i te mohio tera tetahi wahi o te Pire c pera, engari ki taku ka tautoko te Pire i nga ture o te koroni. 39. Te Makarini : E mea ana koe kia kotahi te Kaunihera, kia maha ranei ? Henare Kaihau : E penei ana taku: me whakatu kia kotahi te Kaunihera Maori mo te iwi katoa, a me whai mana taua Kaunihera Maori kite whakatu i etahi Kaunihera hei whakahaere mo ia iwi Maori i roto i tona takiwa. 40. Te Makarini: Ma wai c utu nga moni c pau ite whakahaerenga i te Kaunihera? Me puta mai i hea aua moni ? Henare Kaihau : Xi toku whakaaro ma nga Maori whai whenua c utu penei ano me nga Pakeha c utu nei, ma tera ka tupu haere to ratou ora penei me te Pakeha c tupu haere nei. Kei te kite atu au i nga mema o te Komiti nei c kata ana, ano, mehemea nei ki ta ratou whakaaro, kaore nga Maori c mohio kite whakahaere i a ratou nei ake mea, engari me ki atu au ki nga mema o te Komiti nei kua pakeke te tupu o te Maori i naianei, kua pukengatia ratou, kua mohio kite whakahaere i enei mea katoa.
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41. Tβ Makarini: Kei te whakahe koia nga Maori ki nga ture katoa ote motu nei, kei te ki koia rafcou kei te peehia kinotia ratou c nga ture c pa nei ki nga mea katoa o te koroni, haunga ia nga ture c pa ana ki o ratou whenua? Henare K-xihau: Kaore a matou whakahe ki nga ture nui tonu ate Pakeha, ko ta matou c whakahe ana ko nga ture epa ana ki nga whenua Maori. E tino whakahe ana ahau ki nga ture c pa nei ki nga whenua Maori, a me te mohio hoki o te mema c patai mai nei ki au, he tino tika rawa atu taku c korero atu nei, ara, kei te mate rawa atu nga Maori i nga ture mo o ratou whenua c mana nei. 42. Te Tiamana: Xi te whakaturia te Kaunihera Maori, me whai mana koia taua Kaunihera kite whakahaere i nga ture, me whakatu ranei c ratou etahi komiti i raro i a ia mo ia takiwa hei whakahaere i nga ture ki roto i aua takiwa ? Henare Kaihau : B penei ana taku korero, ko nga whakahaere c pa ana ki nga whenua Maori ote takiwa o Heke, me riro ena ma te Komiti Takiwa c mahi. Ko te kainga hei huihuitanga mo te Kaunihera Maori me riro tena ma nga mema Maori i pootitia c nga iwi hei mema mo taua Kaunihera c whakatau, ara, me whakatau kia tv ki tetahi wahi c ahua waenganui ana te tv i te Motu nei, na ma te Kaunihera Maori c whakamana nga Komiti Maori kite whakahaere i nga ture i tukua atu ki a ratou etc Paremete. Xi taku whakaaro ma tenei ka ngawari nga raruraru o ia takiwa puta noa te Motu o Aotearoa nei. 43. Te Tiamana : Ara, c penei ana koe, me whakatu etahi Komiti motuhake hei whakahaere whakawa mo nga raruraru Maori, haunga ia nga whenua Maori ? Henare Kaihau : Xi te whakaturia nga Komiti Maori i raro i te Kaunihera mo tetahi takiwa i noho ai nga iwi o taua Komiti, a kite puta he raruraru i roto i a ratou, kaati, ka riro ma taua Komiti Maori i whakaturia ra c te Kaunihera c whiriwhiri taua raruraru ki roto i to ratou takiwa, ama ratou c tino whakatau. Ma taua Komiti c ripoata kite Tumuaki o te Kaunihera, c whakaatu ki a ia ta ratou i whakatau ai, a ma te Kaunihera c titiro c whakatau he tika ranei he he ranei ta te Komiti i whakatau ai. 44. Kapene Bahera : Ko te aronga o taku c whai nei c penei ke ana, kite whakaturia c tatou he Komiti mo ia takiwa hei whakahaere whakawa, haunga nga whakahaere mo nga whenua, ka pehea tau ? Henare Kaihau : Heoi he mahi ma ratou ko nga raruraru anake c puta ana i waenganui i te Maori me te Maori. Kaore au c tono ana kia tukua atu he mana ki a ratou hei whakahaere i nga raruraru c puta ana i waenganui ite Maori me te Pakeha. Xi taku he mea tika tenei kia whakaaetia, notemea kei te mohio nga Maori ki nga aronga onga mea katoa c pa ana ki o ratou tikanga Maori tae atu ki o ratou whenua. 45. Tiaki Tiwini : Kei te mohio pea koe kite Ture o te tau 1882 o te tau 1884 ranei, i paahitia nei c te Kawanatanga o Te Paraihe ? Henare Kaihau : Kua rongo au ki taua Ture. Kaore au ite matau ki nga tikanga o roto i taua Ture ? 46. Tiaki Tiwini : Kaore koia koe i te mohio ko te tikanga o taua Ture he tuku mana ki n»a Maori c whai mana ai ratou kite whakahaere i o ratou ake raruraru, penei me te mea c tonoa nei c koutou i naianei. Ara, pera me te ture i tonoa nei c Tamahau Mahupuku me ona iwi kia paahitia c tenei Paremete ? Henare Kaihau : Aβ, kua rongo au ki tena Ture, kite Ture o te tau 1882, engari c hara tena 1 te Ture o te tau 1884. 47. Tiaki Tiwini : I whiwhi painga ranei te iwi Maori ,i raro i taua Ture? Henare Kaihau: Kaore; kaore kau he mahi i pahure i taua Ture. Kaore kau he mana motuhake i tukua atu ki nga Maori i raro i taua Ture. Kaore taua Ture i marama, na reira kaore i taea c ratou te whakahaere ona tikanga. Mehemea i marama te whakatakoto o nga tikanga o taua Ture, kua taea ano c nga Maori ona tikanga te whakahaere. 48. Tiaki Tiwini : A tena, me rereke koia nga tikanga o te Ture c tonoa nei c koutou ki tenei Paremete ki nga tikanga o te Ture i paahitia ra i te tau 1882 ? Henare Kaihau : Kaati, mehemea i konei, i to tatou aroaro, taua Ture hei korero iho maku i ona tekiona katoa, tera ano pea ab.au c kaha kite utu atu i o patai. Tena pea kei te pena me tau, tena pea kei te rereke noa atu. 49. Tiaki Tiwini : Kei te tino hiahia ahau, penei -me etahi atu tangata, kia paahitia he ture pena te ahua me tau c tono nei, hei painga c pumau ai te tupu ora o te iwi Maori, engari ki taku titiro kaore ano he tino whakaaturanga marama a koutou i takoto kite aroaro o te Komiti nei, hei tohutohu mai i te aronga hei haerenga mo te Pire c hiahiatia nei c koutou ? Henare Kaihau: Ko te pitihana c korero nei au he tono kite Kawanatanga kia mahia he ture hei whakatutuki i nga hiahia o nga iwi Maori nana i tuku mai tenei pitihana. 50. Tiaki Tiwini: Engari ko te pitihana c mau nei i taku ringa, ara, te pitihana a Tamahau Mahupuku me etahi atu, kaore i te whakaatu i tetahi tikanga c marama ai c mohiotia ai ranei ta ratou c hiahia ana ? Henare Kaihav,: He mea atu taku ki a koe, kaua koe c patai mai ki au mo tena pitihana, waiho ake tena, kia tae mai ra taua pitihana kite aroaro o te Komiti nei hei reira koe patai ai mo taua mea. Ko te pitihana i whakahuatia ake nei c au kite Komiti ko te pitihana ke a nga iwi Maori o te Tai Hauauru. Tiaki Tiwini : Ac ra ; engari ko te pitihana a te Tai Hauauru c korerotia na c koe, he whakaatu kau ta tena i nga whakahe me nga amuamu ate iwi Maori. Kaore taua pitihana ite whakaatu mai i tetahi tikanga hei aronga mo te Pire. Xi taku nei, he.i aha nga pitihana pena, engari ano tetahi pitihana c tino tohutohu mai ana i tetahi kaupapa Pire hei hurihuri ma te Komiti nei, ara, tetahi tikanga c taea ana c tatou te whakaae, ma tenei hoki c oti ai i a tatou tetahi Pire i tenei tau, c kore ai c puhore noa iho ta ta'ou mahi, pera me tera tau.
I—3a,
8
Te Tiamana : Xi toku nei whakaaro, i haere mai nga kai-pitihana kite aroaro o te Komiti ki te whakatakoto i te ahua o te Pire c hiahiatia ana c ratou kia mahia c te Kawanatanga? Henare Kaihau : Kua penatia na hoki c au. Bt. Honore Te Hetana: Xi taku ka nui te marama ote whakatakoto a Henare Kaihau ite ahua ote mea nei. E penei ana toku whakaaro, to te Minita Maori, kite kore c tau i a tatou naianei tetahi huarahi c oti marama ai te whakahaere o nga whenua c toe nei kite iwi Maori, ko te tukunga iho ka pau nga whenua o nga Maori a ka waiho kore whenua ratou, a tera c tupu ake he ngakau pouri he ngakau mamae mo ratou i runga i taua ahua. Na reira, he take tika tenei hei whiriwhiri ma tenei Komiti, hei rapunga mana i nga korero i korerotia ki tona aroaro i tera tau, ka mutu ka tohutohu atu kite Whare i ana mea i kite ai, a hei reira tena te Whare c tahuri kite paahi i tetahi ture i runga i tana i mahara ai he tika. Xi taku mahara tena pea c taea c tatou te whakakotahi o tatou whakaaro, a tera ano c oti i a tatou tetahi aronga Pire c paingia ana c te iwi Maori. E rua nga huarahi mo tatou. Engari tena pea c kiia he tikanga whakahaere tenei na te Kawanatanga. He tika tena, engari ite mea he take nui rawa tenei, ki taku me whakarere c nga taha c rua o te Whare, ara, c te Apitihana me te Kawanatanga, mo runga i tenei take, a raua whakaaro me a raua mahi c whakatete nei ki a raua, a i te mea kua huihuia mai hei mema mo te Komiti nei nga mema kua pukengatia ki nga tikanga Maori, na reira ka mea atu au ki a koutou kia tahuri mai koutou hei hoa mo matou, mo te Kawanatanga, kite mahi ite Pire nei. Xi te tahuri mai koutou kite tautoko i taku c mea atu nei, c tino mohio ana ahau, ka oti noa atu i a tatou tetahi ture poto te paahi hei whakatuturu i te tikanga c whakahaerea ai nga whenua Maori, c tuwhera ai he huarahi mo nga tangata no ratou nga whenua c whakahaerea ana kite whakatu i etahi o ratou hei mema mo nga Poari whakahaere i aua whenua, a c tuwhera ai he huarahi c uru ai etahi tangata matau ki aua Poari hei whakahaere ite taha kite Kawanatanga. Me ahua rite te wbakahaerenga o aua whenua kite tikanga c whakahaerea nei nga whenua o te Karauna, a ma te Kawanatanga c whakarite he moni kia taea ai aua whenua te whakanohonoho kite tangata, ako nga hua c puta ana i aua whenua ma nga Maori ena. Na, i korero ake au i nakua nei, c rua nga huarahi kei te tuwhera ki a tatou —tuatahi, me paahi tetahi ture poto hei whakawhanui i nga tikanga ote Ture i whakahuatia ake nei c au. Tuarua, kite kore te mea tuatahi nei c taea te paahi i tenei tuunga o te Paremete, kaati, me paahi he ture poto hei whakamutu i te hoko whenua Maori a taea noatia te wa c tino tau ai i te Paremete he tikanga mo aua whenua. Ko te huarahi tuatahi te mea pai ki taku nei titiro, ite mea kua rongo te Komiti i nga korero i korerotia ki tona aroaro mo taua mea. Xi te kore tatou c tahuri kite mahi i taku i korero ake nei, tona mutunga ka hikitia mo tetahi atu tau, akapa he mate kite pena te tikanga. Xi taku me whiriwhiri c te Komiti tenei mea, ka mutu ka tuku atu i tana ripoata kite Whare, a tera te Whare c whakaae ki taua ripoata. Ka mutu i konei aku korero. Tiaki Tiwini : I kite Minita Maori me paahi tetahi Ture hei whakamutu i te hoko a te Karauna i nga whenua Maori; c penei ana ranei te tikanga o tena me whai mana te Karauna ki te whakaoti i nga hoko mo nga poraka katoa kua eke he panuitanga mana ki runga, a kua oti i a ia te hoko o nga hea o nga tangata kotahi, tokorua, tokotoru ranei ? Bt. Honore Te Hetana : Ka tika pea tena mo nga poraka c whakahaerea ana te hoko i naianei —ara, mo nga poraka kua oti te hoko etahi o nga hea. He pai pea me waahi atu nga paanga o ena, engari kaua he hoko hove timataria. Tiaki Tiwini: Mo nga poraka katoa koia kei te hokona etc Karauna i naianei tena kupu au, ahakoa kotahi ano te tangata Maori kua haina i tona ingoa kite tiiti ? Bt. Honore Te Hetana: Me hoko ra i etahi eka torutoru nei kia ea ai te wahanga i roto ite Kooti. E kore hoki c tika kia waiho marara noa iho aua eka, ma te wawahi katahi ka topu te takoto —kite kore c peratia he pai rawa me whakahoki atu te moni i hokona ai aua eka. Te Makarini : Mehemea 100,000 nga eka o tetahi poraka, me pehea ? Bt. Honore Te Hetana : He mea itr tena, waiho kia mahi tatou i te Pire ka hurihuri ai tena. Ko taku c hiahia ana kia tino oti, ko tetahi tikanga c mau ai nga whenua o nga Maori ki a ratou. Xi te penei tonu te ahua me tona ahua c takoto nei, kotahi tonu tona mutunga, ara, he mate. Ko te hiahia o toku Kawanatanga me tino whakaoti tenei take.
Tubei, 19 o Hepetbma, 1899. Hone Heke, ka patairia. Te Tiamana : I te nukuhanga o te Komiti nei i te Paraire kua taha ake nei i meinga i taua ra hei tenei ra whakarongo ai te Komiti ki nga korero a Hone Heke, a Wi Pere, me Tame Parata (i te mea hoki kua mutu ta Henare Kaihau korero i ona whakaaro), ara, a nga mema o te iwi Maori, mo nga pitihana i tukua mai mo nga menemana whakatikatika c meatia ana kia hanga mo nga ture c pa ana ki nga whenua Maori c korerotia nei c te Komiti i naianei. Hone Heke : He whakaaturanga tenei naku i aku mahara, hei kitenga mai mo te Komiti i te huarahi c hiahiatia ana c ahau hei takotoranga mo tetahi ture whenua Maori. Na nga ahuatanga o naianei, ara, o nga ture c mana nei i runga i nga whenua Maori i naianei, i whakaaturia ai c ahau oku ake mahara. Kei te tino whakaae ahau kia whakaritea nga ture hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori, ki nga ture c whakahaere nei i nga whenua Pakeha. Notemea i raro i nga ture ■whenua Pakeha c waihotia ana kite tangata nona te whenua te mana whakahaere i tona ake whenua, i runga i ana huarahi c maharatia ana c ia hei pai mona, a c puare mai ana ki a ia nga utu tiketike, whakapikipiki ote makete o waho. Mehemea ka tau ki tenei, katahi ka kore atu te ture c here nei ite utu mo te whenua ate Maori kite utu kotahi c kiia nei cte ture whenua Maori o naianei. Kei te mama rawa nga tikanga o nga ture mo nga whenua Pakeha. Kaore rawa ratou c raruraru nui ana, kahore hoki c nui ana nga mom hei whakapaunga ma ratou i runga i a ratou whakahaerenga tikanga i runga i o ratou whenua. Ko nga Maori kei te tino taumaha katoa
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L—3a
ona huarahi. Na te aha ? Na nga ture. Ka whakaaturia nga take kei te tino whakahengia c ahau o nga ture whenua Maori c mana nei i naianei, me nga he c mahia ana i raro i aua ture. Kei te whakahengia c ahau te ahua ote here whenua Maori c mana nei i naianei. Ko te ahua o aua here c rite ana he huarahi taake i nga whenua Maori. Na taua here i arai nga Maori kia kaua c whiwhi ki nga utu tiketike o te makete o waho, a na taua here i rite ai te hiahia o te Kawanatanga kia riro anake iaia te hoko nga whenua Maori. Na taua ahua ote ture i riro ai te whenua ote Maori mo tetahi utu iti rawa mo te eka. Hei whakatinana i tenei take aku me whakaatu c ahau tetahi keehi. I namaia etc Kawanatanga oTe Atikini itewa i a ratou kotahi miriona pauna, hei hanga i fee huarahi reriwe nui o konei ki Akarana. I roto i taua kotahi miriona pauna ka namaia c £200,000 hei hoko whenua Maori. Kua hokoa taua £200,000 a kua pau kite whenua Maori, a kua wariutia nga whenua i riro ite Kawanatanga mo taua moni. Ko te wariu katoa i naianei o aua whenua c £800,000. Ka kitea i konei he £600,000 te nuinga ake ote wariu o aua whenua ite utu i hokona ai etc Kawanatanga. Na tenei i tika ai taku kupu iki ake nei, c ahei ana kia tirohia nga here whenua c mana nei i naianei i runga i nga whenua Maori, he huarahi taake i nga whenua. Ko te Koroni nei kei te whiwhi ki nga hua o tenei ture here whenua Maori. He nui nga whenua Maori kua hokona c te Kawanatanga mo te ss. i te eka," otiia, mehemea i ahei nga Maori o aua whenua kite hoko kite utu ote makete nui o waho, ka riro mai i a ratou te £1 10s. tae kite £2 ite eka. Ko tetahi tena o nga he c mahia ana i raro o nga ture whenua Maori o naianei. Na mo etahi atu o nga ahua me nga taumahatanga c utaina ana c nga ture ki runga i nga Maori. Tenei tetahi ture kei. te pa ki nga whenua Maori ko Te Ture Tiute Pane Kuini. He taake tino taumaha kei te utaina c tenei Ture' ki runga ki nga whenua Maori. I runga i nga hoko me nga riihitanga whenua Maori c tangohia ana c te Kawanatanga he £10 i roto ia £100 i runga i te wariu topu o te whenua, i te moni topu hoki o te riihi i runga i te tatau a-tau (ara te moni topu o te huihuinga o nga tau ote riihi). Mehemea he whenua Pakeha kahore rawa c pera te taumaha ote tiute pane Kuini, hei utunga mana kite Kawanatanga. Heoi ano te moni hei utunga ma te Pakeha kite Kawanatanga he tekau ma rima hereni i roto ite £100. Ka kite mai koutou ite nui rawa ote hapa. Na i raro anake i enei ahua c rua kua tohungia nei c ahau, c ahei ana a c tika ana ahau kia inoi kia whakaritea te ahua o nga ture hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori ki nga ture c whakahaere nei i nga whenua o nga Pakeha. Kahore ahau c tango ite turanga whakatangitangi. Kaati me tango ahau i tetahi atu take. He aha te take i araia ai nga Maori kia kaua c whiwhi ki nga painga c puta ana ki nga Pakeha i raro i Te Ture Whakanohonoho Whenua kite Tangata? I raro i tenei ture, kite hiahia te Kawanatanga kite tango ite whenua ote Pakeha, ka matua tuhia ki taua Pakeha he reta vi atu i tana utu mo taua whenua. Xi te kore c rite mai te utu a taua Pakeha ki ta te Kawanatanga i kite ai, ka riro ma te Kawanatanga c karanga tana utu mo te whenua o taua Pakeha. Xi te kore te Pakeha ra c whakaae ki ta te Kawanatanga utu—ki te kore hoki te Kawanatanga c whakaae ki ta te Pakeha ra utu —ko reira ka tukua ma te Kooti Aputareihana o te Hupirimi Kooti c whakatau te utu mo te whenua o taua Pakeha. Ko reira te Karauna ahei ai kite hoko i tana whenua i runga ite utu i whakataua cte Kooti Aputareihana, mehemea c pai ia (te Kawanatanga). Na, ka tika tena. Na, kahore i penei te tikanga mo nga whenua Maori. Mo nga whenua Maori ka kiia etc Kawanatanga taua utu —i runga i tana i pai ai—kahore atu he tangata c kaha kite whakapiki ake ite utu mo tana whenua ite mea hoki kua herea cte ture— me tana mohio hoki kahore c taea c nga Maori te kukume atu kite aroaro ote Kooti Aputareihana kia whakataua te utu tika mo te whenua. I runga i enei whakauauatanga, ka riro te whenua ate Maori mo te utu iti rawa. Kaati, tenei tetahi, ana riro ite Kawanatanga tetahi whenua Pakeha, i raro ite Ture Whakanohonoho Whenua kite Tangata, ka ruritia nga roherohenga o taua whenua me nga rori hoki; ko nga moni hei utu i aua ruritanga roherohe, me te hanganga 0 nga rori, ka riro ma nga moni ate koroni c utu—kahore c patua kite moni utu mo te whenua a te Pakeha ra. Te Tiamana: B mahara ana ahau, ko te inoi a tenei pitihana, he kati ite hoko o nga whenua Maori. Kaati, kei te korero ke a Hone Heke i nga ritenga hoko i nga whenua Maori. Mehemea me mutu te hoko i nga whenua Maori, kaati, kahore enei korero cpa ana kite take. Hone Heke : E whakapuaki ana ahau i oku mahara ake mo nga ahua i kino ai, i tino he ai te ture o naianei epa ana ki nga whenua Maori—c whakaatu ana ahau i nga take i tika ai te Komiti kia whiriwhiri nui i tetahi takotoranga pai. Mehemea he whenua Maori i hokona c te Kawanatanga, he rereke nga ritenga. Ko te utu mo nga ruri roherohe, me te hanganga rori mo taua whenua ka utaina ki runga kite whenua ate Maori ra; ko tetahi tena o nga take i tino whakaitia ai etc Kawanatanga nga utu mo nga whenua Maori. He huarahi ano tenei c tika ana kia kiia he taake whenua Maori. Ka ahei ahau kite tohu haere ite maha atu o nga taumahatanga c utaina ana c nga ture c mana nei i naianei ki runga ki nga whenua Maori—kaati me whakakapi i enei. Me huri taku korero i naianei mo nga ture i paahitia ite tau 1894. Ite maharatanga ote Kawanatanga kia herea nga whenua Maori ka paahitia c ratou " Te Ture Kooti Whenua Maori, 1894." Na i muri ote paahitanga o taua ture ka waihotia c ratou tena hei kaupapa takotoranga mo nga ture c hanga ana i muri mai ote tau 1894. Heoi, ite mea kua mohiotia c tatou koia rate takotoranga a kei te kii nei hoki te ture ote tau 1894, kite Kuini anake te mana hoko i nga whenua Maori. Na konei ahau i whakaatu ai—ko tenei tikanga, ma te Kuini anake te mana hoko i nga whenua Maori, he tikanga patu i nga Maori me o ratou whenua, a ko te tino tikanga me whakakore rawa atu, kaati he tikanga hei hanganga, ko te whakaae ite riihi i nga whenua Maori. Ka nui te ahua reka ake ki nga kupu a Honore Timi Kara me te Eight Honore te Pirimia i ki ra raua, 1 tera ra nei, kei te whakaae te Kawanatanga, kia whakaaetia mai hei tikanga taku c aki tonu nei ahau, ara, kia mutu rawa te hoko ate Kawanatanga i nga whenua Maori. Heoi, ite mea, he kupu pai tena naraua mo tetahi o nga take c akina tonutiaana c ahau, ka kii ahau, kei te whakaae ahau kite awhina i tetahi Pire pera ona tikanga, mehemea ka maua mai, me taku hiahia kia paahitia i tenei turanga ote Paremete. Ahakoa kei te whanui ke atu nga hiahia a oku iwi me nga iwi Maori o te Kotahitanga o nga iwi Maori i nga tikanga c taea te mahi i tenei turanga Paremete, 2—l. 3a.
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ahakoa, ma te aha, mehemea c mau mai etahi wahi, waiho mo muri atu ahau whakamatau ai ki te hopu i etahi atu o nga take kei te hiahiatia c matou kia riro mai, kia oti hei ture mo o matou whenua. Me huri tenoi i naianei mo nga mana c meatia ana kia whakawhiwhia kite Poari i raro ite Pire Poari ate Kawanatanga, kahore ahau c kaha kite whakaae i ena. Kaati, waiho tena hei take whiriwhiri, tirotiro ma te Komiti. Ko oku mahara mo tenei Poari i raro i nga ritenga 0 tenei Pire, c kore rawa c tika ma te Poari nei ano ia c whakakorikori, i runga i tona hiahia c hiahia ai ia. Engari ma nga tangata no ratou te whenua nga taonga ranei te kupu, me nga tohutohu atu kite Poari, whakaatu i nga hiahia o aua tangata, i nga huarahi me nga mahi c paingia ana c ratou kia mahia c te Poari, katahi ano te Poari ka korikori i raro i aua tohutohu—katahi ano ka tika. Ko te hiahia nui o nga iwi na ratou nei tenei tikanga i mea kia tv tenei Poari, he mea kia riro ai mana c whakahaere nga riihi me nga riihitanga whenua. He mea hoki kia taea ai te nama he moni hei utu taumahatanga, a hei whakapai whenua hoki. I runga i tenei huarahi mahi ka kapi katoa nga ringa o te Poari i tenei mahi anake. Na taku mohio iho ka kapi nga ringa o te Poari i tenei huarahi mahi, me taku kite, tera c taupapatu te mahinga o ona mana whakahaere whenua me ona mana Kooti whakawa. Na konei ahau Iki ai, c kore rawa c tika kia apititia atu he mahi hou atu ki roto kite ringa ote Poari, a kia whakawhiwhia ia ki nga mana katoa ote Kooti Whenua Maori. Ko nga mana ote Kooti Whenua Maori, he mana ena me tuku atu ki roto ki nga ringaringa o tetahi atu ropu i waho atu o te Poari c kiia nei. Ko enei mana c rua —ara, ko (1) te mana riihi, tiaki whakahaere whenua, me (2) nga mana o te Kooti Whenua Maori, c kore rawa c tika kia huihuia ki roto i nga ringaringa o te ropu kotahi. He nui nga kino me nga he c puta, a ka tau katoa hei taumahatanga ki runga ki nga whenua o nga Maori c tupono te tuku whenua ki raro i te mana o te Poari nei kia whakahaerea i runga i nga riihi, mokete hoki. Kaati, kahore ahau c whai rawa kia whakapaua ona whakataturanga i naianei, engari ka huri taku korero mo nga whenua Maori—nga whenua Maori c takoto papatupu ana. Ka whakaae ahau kia whakaturia he Poari kia riro mana c whakahaere nga whenua Maori i raro i nga huarahi kua whakaaturia ake nei c ahau, a mo runga i nga take kua whakaaturia c ahau. Na, i te mea kua whakamohiotia mai ki a tatou c te Kawanatanga, kua maharatia c ia kia whakamutua te hoko ate Kawanatanga i nga whenua a nga Maori; na mehemea he tika tenei, kua tata te taea o tetahi o nga hiahia nui c inoia tonutia nei c nga iwi Maori ra roto ito ratou Kotahitanga. Na, mo nga toenga whenua papatupu a nga Maori c takoto nei i naianei i te motu nei, c penei ana ahau, kaua c pa atu te ture ruri i raro i " Te Ture Kooti Whenua Maori, 1894," ki aua whenua, no te mea he huarahi hanga taumahatanga tena ki runga kite whenua, he huarahi whakakino tangata hoki. Kahore enei ahuatanga c rua ite pai, kahore i te tika, kahore hoki c hiahiatia ana. He nui hoki nga kino c oho ake ana i roto i nga iwi, i nga hapu i runga i nga tono ruri a tetahi tangata kotahi, tokorua ranei, c ki ana he paanga o raua kite whenua, a ko te nuinga o nga tangata kahore i te whakaae. Engari ma te katoa c whakaae, katahi ka tika, ka kore hoki he kino c oho ake i roto i te iwi. Kaati, ko taku huarahi tenei ka whakaaturia nei mo aua ahua whenua. Me penei he ture, me whakamana nga hapu c ki ana he paanga o ratou ki tetahi, ki etahi whenua papatupu, kite whakatu i tetahi Komiti i roto ano i a ratou, me tv taua Komiti ki nga wahi c whakaritea c ratou. (1) Xi te kimi, kite whakatau ite rohe potae ote whenua, o nga whenua papatupu ranei; (2) kite kimi kite whakatau i nga rohe hapu, wahanga hapu hoki, tae atu hoki ki nga rohe whanau. Kia oti rawa tena te whakatau, katahi ano ka ahei te ruri te haere mehemea ka hiahiatia c nga tangata mo ratou tena wahanga tena wahanga o aua whenua. Ka oti ena rohe katoa te mahi—katahi te Komiti ka timata kite whakatutuki i tetahi o aua mahi, ara, kite kimi kite whakatau i nga rarangi ingoa o nga tangata c tika ana ki ia wahanga ki ia wahanga o te whenua. Kei te tino mohio ake ahau, ka taea tenei huarahi te whakatinana. Kua kite ahau ite whakatatanga 0 tetahi tikanga penei. Xi te whakaaetia tenei huarahi kia whakaturia, ka ki ake ahau ka mawehe atu etahi o nga taumahatanga nunui c tau mai ana ki runga ki nga whenua Maori i raro i nga ture o naianei; aka taea hoki te whakakore atu nga tini raruraru nunui c oho ake ana i waenganui i nga Maori me nga Maori. Xi te oti enei i nga Maori, ara, i to ratou Komiti, na, heoi he mahi ma ratou i muri o tena, he tuku atu ita ratou whakaotinga kite Kooti kia whakamana—ki te kore te Kooti, aki te ropu hei tango ite mana ote Kooti. Engari kaua kite Poari. Na, kua oti katoa te take, a kua araia atu nga huarahi whakapau nui i te moni, whakakino hoki i te tangata, c puta mai ana i nga keehi penei, ana mahia etc Kooti Whenua Maori. Na, ite mea ko ta tatou noho c noho nei tatou, hei whakaatu i o tatou mahara, he uiui, he tautohe, i nga tika i nga he, i nga uauatanga, i nga ngawaritanga o o tatou hiahia, kia taea ai te komiri i roto i a tatou huarahi korero tetahi ture c tau pai ai ona hua ki nga iwi Maori, a c tino iti ai hoki nga moni c pau i runga i nga huarahi whakahaere i raro i taua ture; koia nei ahau 1 ki ai, koia tenei ko te huarahi c oti ai taua hiahia i raro i nga tini ahuatanga c pa atu ana ki enei whakahaere. Na, ite mea kua maramatia te putake ota tatou noho, koia ahau iki ai, ka taea c ahau te whakangawari te nuinga o nga take kei te hiahiatia c ahau kia oti, kia riro ai ma taku whakangawari i etahi o aku take c ngawari ai pea te whakaaetia nga take a te Kawanatanga kua whakaaturia nei etc Pirimia i roto i ana whai-korero i runga ite Motu nei. Kaati nei he kupu maku. Henare Kaihau : I mahara ahau ko tenei korero a tatou he korero mo runga i nga pitihana i whai korero ai ahau i tera rangi nei. Kaati, he mea ke tenei. Ko tenei he whakaatu ke i nga huarahi hei haerenga mo tetahi ture i runga i te hiahia a nga mema motuhake o tenei Komiti. Tera ke ia te aronga korero, ko te pitihana i korero ai ahau; ko te take tuatahi tera kei te aroaro o te Komiti. Te Tiamana : I mahara ahau ko te putake i kokirihia ai aua pitihana kite aroaro ote Whare, he mea kia taea ai te mohio nga mahara o nga mema Maori mo runga i te huarahi c haere ai he ture whenua Maori, kia taea ai te whakaiti iho te whakakore rawa atu ranei o nga kino me nga taumahatanga c korerotia nei i roto i nga pitihana. Kua whakaaturia c Henare Kaihau ona
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mahara kite aroaro o tenei Komiti me te huarahi hei haerenga mo tetahi ture hei whakarite ite hiahia o nga iwi Maori o tona takiwa. Ko te inoi nui o roto i nga pitihana—ko te kati rawa atu ite hoko i nga whenua Maori. I tautoko a Henare Kaihau i aua pitihana, kua rongo ake hoki ahau kei te whakaae a Hone Heke kite take nui o taua pitihana, kia katia te hoko i nga whenua Maori. Kua whakaatu hoki ia i nga huarahi c taea ai nga hiahia o nga Pakeha te whakatutuki mo to ratou hiahia kite whenua Maori. Na kua rnohio tatou ki nga mahara o nga mema Maori c rua—te mema mo te Tai Hauauru me te mema mo te Tai Tokerau. Na, kei te hiahia te Komiti kia mohio ki nga mahara oWi Pere, o te mema mo te Tai Eawhiti. I muri o tena, ko te mahi ma te Komiti, he whakapapa, he whakariterite haere, i aua whakaaturanga mahara c toru a nga mema mo nga iwi Maori. Koia nei, ki au nei, te mahi i noho huihui ai tatou. Honore Timi Kara : Xi taku nei whakaaro he mea pai me korero mai c ia mema Maori o ia takiwa ote Motu nei ona whakaaro mo te take c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Komiti. Kaore he tikanga c tino roa ai a ratou korero, engari me poto, me marama, ta ratou whakapuaki mai i o ratou whakaaro mo runga i ta ia tangata o ratou i mahara ai hei aronga tika mo te ture hei mahi ma tatou; a kia mutu tera, kite kite etahi o tatou he mea tika kia patai ia mo runga i etahi mea c puta ake ana i roto i nga korero a ia mema Maori, ara, mo nga korero a ia mema Maori c taupatupatu ana te ahua i nga korero a tetahi o ratou, hei reira me tuku ma tatou, ma nga mema Pakeha 0 tenei Komiti, c patai a tatou patai i kite ai hei whakamarama i nga wahi o a ratou korero c taupatupatu ana te ahua. Ina hoki, hei tauira, c hiahia ana ahau kite patai atu i etahi patai ruarua nei ki a Hone Heke. Te Tiamana : E pai ana. 1. Honore Timi Kara : Tuatahi, ka patai atu au ki a ia, mehemea ranei c tino tuturu ana tana kupu, ara, me mutu rawa atu te hoko whenua Maori ? Hone Heke : E penei ana taku kupu : Ko taku hiahia nui kia tino whakakorea atu nga here 1 te hoko c mau nei i runga i nga whenua Maori, a me tuku atu ki nga Maori ano te mana tiaki te mana hoko, ki a ratou te tikanga, engari kaua o ratou mana ake c whakaitia c te ture. E mohio ana ano ahau he mea tino uaua tenei te whakaae mai, a tena pea c kore rawa c whakaaetia ; na reira me nanao atu au i nga painga ririki c whakaaria mai nei, a me whakaae atu au kia whakamutua rawatia te hoko i nga whenua Maori. 2. Honore Timi Kara: Kaati, c penei ana taku whakarongo atu ki o korero, c pai ana koe i naianei kite tautoko i tetahi Pire c tino whakamutu ana i te hoko whenua Maori, ahakoa ma te Karauna c hoko ma te Pakeha noa ranei? Hone Heke : E rua nga aronga ture c pai ana ahau kite tautoko, te tuatahi, kb taku iki ake ra koi rate mea pai ki au, ara, me whakakore atu nga here c mau nei i runga i nga whenua Maori, kia hoki atu ano kite Maori tana mana ame tuku nga Maori kia hoko, kia pupuru, kia reti kia kaua ranei—hei tana c pai ai. Na, ite mea kua kite nei au i naianei c kore tera c homai ki au, kaati, ka akina atu c au ko tetahi aronga ture, ara, ko nga hoko a te Karauna me whakamutu. Ko ia tena taku whakaaro tuturu i naianei, ka mau taku ki tena. 3. Honore Timi Kara: Kaati, ite mea kua ki koe i naianei, ka tautoko koe i tetahi Pire c whakamutu ana ite hoko whenua Maori kite Karauna kite Pakeha noa ranei, tena, c pai ana ranei koe kia kapea etahi Maori ki waho i taua tikanga, ara, nga Maori c hiahia ana ki te wawahi i o ratou whenua ki ia tangata ki ia tangata i runga i a ratou huarahi c pai ai ? Hone Heke : Ac; i te mea hoki, ki toku whakaaro he whakangawaritanga mai tena mo taku whakahoki ki to patai tuatahi ra, engari ka mau tonu taku ki aku i korero ake nei. 4. Honore Timi Kara : Kaati, c penei ana taku whakarongo atu ki to korero : i a koe c ki ake nei me whakamutu te hoko whenua Maori, c penei ana pea te tikanga o taua kupu au, ko nga hoko c whakamutu ko nga hoko mo nga whenua Maori kaore nei ano i whakawakia i mohiotia ranei nga tangata nona te whenua, a kaore nei ano i whakataua ki etahi tangata tokomaha, i raro i tetahi tiwhikete i tetahi atu taitara ranei ? Hone Heke : I au c mea atu nei tera ahau c tautoko i tetahi Pire c whakamutu ana i te hoko whenua Maori kite Karauna kite Pakeha noa ranei, c penei ana te tikanga o taku korero, ac, tera ahau c tautoko i tetahi Pire pera te ahua c pa ana ki nga ahua whenua katoa c whakaarohia ana kia whakaurua ki roto kite Pire c mea nei te Kawanatanga kite kokiri kite Whare hei whakatutuki i nga take c takoto nei i te aroaro o te Komiti. 5. Honore Timi Kara : Engari, i runga i taku whakarongo atu ki o kupu c korero nei, c mea ana koe me tuwhera ano he huarahi c taea ai te roherohe o te whenua, ara, mehemea he poraka whenua kua tau ki etahi tangata toko-ouou nei, a c marama ana ka pai ake ta ratou whakahaere ito ratou whenua ita te Poari whakahaere, a kite mea taua hunga nona te whenua kia tukuna atu ma ratou ano c whakahaere to ratou whenua, ara, kaua c hoatu ma te Poari c whakahaere, c penei ana koia koe me whakaae atu ta ratou tono ? He mea tika koia tera ki tau ? Hone Heke : Ac, c pena ana taku titiro ; engari kaore c penei rawa ana taku me matua tuku atu te mana whakahaere ote whenua kite Poari, a muri iho me haere atu nga Maori kite Poari tono ai katahi ka hoatu te whenua o aua Maori ma ratou ano c whakahaere. 6. Honore Timi Kara : E pai ana. E ki ana koe me whakamutu te hoko whenua Maori, ahakoa riro ma te Karauna c hoko ma te Pakeha noa ranei. Na, kite oti tena, c pehea ana to kupu kite aronga Pire c mea nei me whakatu tetahi Poari, tetahi Kaunihera Maori ranei, tetahi atu ropu ranei pera te ahua, a me tuku atu ma ratou c whakahaere nga whenua c korerotia nei ? Hone Heke : Ac, c whakaae ana ahau, notemea ko te hiahia kua whakaaturia me tv he Poari, tetahi atu ropu ranei pera te ahua. Engari ki taku mahara heoi anake pea te mea c kore rawa c riterite o taua whakaaro, tae atu pea ki etahi hoki o aku hoa mema o te Komiti nei, ko te mana whakahaere c meatia ana kia tukuna kite Poari. 7. Honore Timi Kara : A tena, haunga ia nga mana whakahaere c meatia nei kia tau kite Poari, waiho ake tera'i naianei, mehemea ka whakaturia he Poari hei whakahaere i nga whenua
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Maori, ka whakaae ranei koe kia tukua katoa nga whenua Maori ki raro i te mana o te Poari, ma ke ranei tau c pai ai, ara, me riro marire ma nga tangata o roto o ia poraka o ia poraka c ata tuku atu o ratou whenua kite Poari katahi ka whai mana te Poari ki runga ki ana whenua ? Hone Heke: E penei ana taku, me tuku ki nga Maori no ratou te whenua te whakaaro, ma ratou ano c whiriwhiri c whakatau, ara, me tuku atu ranei to ratou whenua ma te Poari c whakaere kaua ranei, ki a ratou te tikanga. 8. Honore Timi Kara : E pai ana, kaati me ki noa ake, hei aronga kupu, me pena me tau c tautoko na, ara, me tuku atu ki nga tangata no ratou te whenua te whakaaro, me tuku ranei te whenua ki raro ite mana o te Poari kaua ranei; a, kite tupono, tena etahi tangata no ratou tetahi whenua c mea ana kaore ratou c pai kite tuku ito ratou whenua ki raro i te mana whakahaere o te Poari, me pehea he tikanga, he ture ranei, mo ratou tae atu ki o ratou whenua? Hone HeTce : Mehemea kua paahi te Pire. Ko taku kupu tenei, kaua rawa c riro ma te ture c whakahau te tangata kia tukua ana whenua ki roto kite ringa ote Poari; engari ki nga Maori ano no ratou nga whenua te tikanga tuku i o ratou whenua kite Poari kahore ranei; na, mo nga tangata kahore c hiahia ana kite tuku i o ratou whenua kite Poari, ka noho ena whenua i raro i nga ritenga o taua Ture, engari kahore i raro ite mana ote Poari. Ko tenei kupu eki ana—mehemea ianei kua ture te Pire nei—e ki ana ahau ko nga whenua katoa ka tau ki raro i te mana o tenei ture, engari kahore ki raro ite mana ote Poari. E tau ai ki raro ite Poari te mana o nga whenua, me ata tuku atu ano c nga tangata no ratou nga whenua. He korero tarewa katoa enei, no te mea kahore ano te Pire i takoto noa ki o tatou aroaro, c marama ai enei whakaaturanga kupu. Ko te tino kupu—ki nga tangata ano no ratou nga whenua te mana tuku i o ratou whenua, te mana pupuru mai. Tera pea etahi tangata ahu whenua, mohio kite whakahaere c ki, " Kahore matou c pai, ko to matou hiahia ma matou ano c ngaki, c whakahaere hoki o matou whenua." Mo nga keehi penei te ahua, he aha te take i tika ai tatou te kii ki enei ahua tangata—me hanga he ture kia ma te ture c kukume nga whenua o nga tangata ki roto ite ringa o te Poari. Kahore c tika kia hanga penatia te Pire. Mehemea he tangata ahu whenua te tangata, he iti ke ana moni c pau, mana ano tana whenua c mahi—i te tuku atu ma te Poari c mahi. Tera pea etahi tangata c ki, " Kahore matou c pai ki tenei ture, me waiho ano o matou whenua ki raro i nga ture tawhito." He ki noake tenei, he tohu korero. Henare Kaihau : Xi taku mahara, c te Tiamana, kahore tatou c mahi ana i te mahi i karangatia ai tatou kia hui mai ki konei. Kahore tatou i haere mai ki konei kite korero mo te Pire Poari ate Kawanatanga mo taku Pire ranei, engari i hui mai tatou kite uiui kite korero i tetahi takotoranga mo tetahi ture whenua pai atu i enei—ki te hanga i tetahi Pire c rite ai nga hiahia o katoa. Ko te Pire Poari na te Kawanatanga tena, tenei hoki nga Pire aWi Pere me Hone Heke, me etahi atu Pire, c ahua riterite ana, engari kahore c whakaaetia ana. Otiia kei te aroaro ote Whare aua Pire. Na, ko nga pitihana kei te inoi kia whakangawaritia, a kia kumea mai i roto i aua Pire katoa tetahi Pire hei Pire ma tatou. Ko taku kupu me penei; me whakapuaki c ahau, c Hone Heke, c Wi Pere, me Honore Timi Kara o matou mahara whakaatu i te huarahi pai hei takotoranga mo tetahi ture, a ma aua kupu c tohutohu ki a tatou te huarahi c oti ai he Pire hei inoitanga ma tatou kite Kawanatanga kia whakaetia kia paahi. Te Tiamana : Ano ki au, koia tonu tena te mea c whakamatau nei te Komiti kia tutuki. Henare Kaihau : Ko te Poari anake ta tatou c korero nei tae noa mai ki naianei. 'Te Tiamana: Ano ki au, c whakamatau ana a Honore Timi Kara, i runga ite huarahi patai, kia tino marama mai i a Hone Heke ona mahara mo runga i tetahi ture mo nga whenua Maori. E whai ana a Honore Timi Kara kia tino marama te takoto mai o nga whakaaro o Hone Heke mo tana ahua Pire c tino tutuki ai nga hiahia o te iwi Maori. Honore Timi Kara : E penei ana te ahua ki au :Ko nga pitihana nei, he inoi poto kite Whare kia paahitia tetahi Pire poto mo nga whenua Maori i tenei tuunga Paremete. Kaati, kei te whakaae te Kawanatanga kia tutuki taua hiahia, engari i mua atu o te tangohanga c te Kawanatanga o tetahi huarahi titika, c hiahia ana te Kawanatanga kia rongo i nga mahara o Henare Kaihau, o Hone Heke, o Wi Pere i runga i tenei take, kia taea ai c te Kawanatanga a te wa c tahuri ai ratou kite hanga ite Pire hei whakarite, ara, hei mea c tatata kau ai te rite o nga hiahia o nga tangata c hiahia nei kia paahi tetahi Pire penei. Kaati, kaore ahau c hiahia ana kia kuaretia, ara, kia pohehetia taku kupu. lav c patai nei ia Hone Heke, kahore ahau ite whai kia tv ko te Pire Poari nei, ko tetahi'atu Pire ranei. E patai kau ana ahau, c hara ite mea hei hanga i tetahi huarahi hei akinga maku, engari hei mea c tino marama ai nga kupu o te whai korero a te wikinihi, kia marama ai te titiro, kia mohiotia ai kei hea tatou etu ana. Me mohio hoki, he nui nga tangata ana whai korero, c tino marama ana tana huarahi korero ki a ia, i runga i tana huarahi titiro, otiia, ko nga kai-whakarongo, ka hopu i tetahi huarahi ke hei tirohanga atu ki taua putake. Na reira mehemea kahore i tino marama kite kai-whakarongo etahi o nga take me nga huarahi korero ate kaikorero, heoi ano te huarahi c taea ai te tino mohio o te hangaitanga o te takoto o te take, me ma te huarahi patai. Kaati, mehemea ka hiahia te Komiti kia kaua c patapatai, engari me tuku ko nga whai-korero anake kia haere, ka whakaae noa atu ahau. Te Tiamana: Xi taku mohio, ko te hiahia ote Komiti kia patapataia nga wahi ote whaikorero a te wikinihi kahore nei i ata marama ki etahi o te Komiti—kia tino marama ai i te kaikorero ana mahara. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, tukua tenei huarahi patai kia haere ana, engari akuanei haere tonu i tena ra i tena ra taea noatia te mutunga o te Paremete, a kore rawa he mea c oti. Te Tiamana : Kahore a Henare Kaihau c tino marama ana ke ti take. Ho aha tana c hiahia nei kia meatia c tenei Komiti mo nga pitihana nei; c hara ianei ite mea kia uiuia nga take i hanga ai aua pitihana, he aha oti ? He mea kia taea ai etc Komiti tetahi ripoata hei tukunga atu kite Kawanatanga, kia taea ai cte Kawanatanga te hanga tetahi Pire c ahua tatata ai te rite o nga inoi o nga kai-pitihana. E taea ai tera ahua me whai i runga ite huarahi c whaia nei c tatou i naianei. Me haere tonu te korero a Honore Timi Kara.
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Honore Timi Kara : Kaati, c Heke, ka marama penei aim ahau ki to korero, mehemea ka ture te Pire nei, a c kore etahi o nga tangata c whakaae kia taka mai o ratou whenua ki raro i te Poari nei, ka noho tonu o ratou when.ua ki raro i nga ritenga o te ture nei, engari ia, ko te mana whakahaere i o ratou whenua ka noho tonu ano ki roto i o ratou ake ringaringa, kahore c riro i te Poari ? Hone Heke : Koia na te tikanga o taku kupu. 10. Honore Timi Kara : Tena ka whakaae oti koe ki tetahi rarangi penei hei rarangi mo taua ture. Ko nga tangata kahore c whakaae ana kia taka o ratou whenua ki raro kite Poari, me tuku c ratou he tono kite Poari, inoi kia kapea atu o ratou whenua ki waho o te mana o te Poari ? Hone Heke : Ac, mehemea ka kitea c tatou i runga i a tatou korero whakariterite, uiui, heoi na ano te huarahi c taea ai c aua tangata o ratou whenua te whakawatea. 11. Honore Timi Kara : B penei ke ana te tikanga o taku patai: Mehemea kua ture te Pire nei, ahakoa he Kaunihera, he Poari, ko tetahi atu ropu ranei c whakaturia, a ka horoia katoatia atu c tenei ture nga ture whenua Maori katoa c mana nei i naianei, ka taka katoa mai nga whenua Maori ki raro i tenei ture. Tena, mehemea kahore etahi tangata c whakaae kia taka mai o ratou whenua ki raro i taua Poari, i taua Kaunihera ranei, i tetahi ropu ranei c whakaturia hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori, ka whakaae ranei koe, me inoi rawa c aua tangata kite Kaunihera Maori, kite Poari ranei, kia whakawateatia o ratou whenua ki waho, me tono ranei c ratou kite Kawana, i roto i tona Kaunihera, kia whakawateatia o ratou whenua ki waho o te mana o te Kaunihera, Poari ranei ? Hone Heke : Kahore, c hara i tena. Eki ana ahau, mehemea kua mukua katoatia atu nga ture whenua Maori o naianei, a ka tv hei ture ko tenei c uiui, c whakamatau nei tatou, hei ture, c tika ana kia whakaturia he Poari, a kia mahi taua Poari i raro i nga ritenga me nga mana o te ture nei, engari c kore rawa c tika kia hipoki tonu iho te mana whakahaere o te Poari ki runga ki nga whenua Maori katoa, ki etahi whenua Maori ranei, ahakoa kei hea c takoto ana, engari ma te tangata, ma nga tangata ranei, no ratou nga whenua c tuku atu o ratou whenua ki roto kite ringa o te Poari kia whakahaerea c te Poari, katahi ka tika—me waiho tarewa ma te tangata te hiahia. 12. Honore Timi Kara : Kaati, me waiho atu tena take c tatou. He aha he mana c tukua c koe kite Poari i runga i nga tikanga whakahaere whenua Maori —me whai mana ranei ratou kite riihi? Hone Heke : Ac, me whai mana ratou kite riihi, kite tiaki kite whakahaere i nga whenua c hoatu ki roto i o ratou ringaringa ; engari me haere te mahi a te Poari i runga i aua huarahi riihi, i runga anake i nga tohutohu a nga tangata no ratou nga whenua i te wa i hoatu ai aua whenua c aua tangata ki roto kite ringa o te Poari. 13. Honore Timi Kara : Kaati, ka whakaae koe kia hoatu kite Poari te mana ruri whenua, kite roherohe i te whenua, kite hanga rahui mo nga tangata no ratou te whenua, ma hiahia aua tangata kia wehea he rahui mo ratou, a kite whakahaere hoki i te whenua? Hone Heke : Mehemea koia na nga tohutohu a nga tangata kite Poari ite wa i tukua atu ai nga whenua kite Poari, ka ki ahau, Ac. 14. Honore Timi Kara : Kaati, kia haere tatou ki waho o tena aronga, ara, ite mana whakahaere i nga whenua kua korerotia nei c tatou. Ka whakaae ranei koe kia whakawhiwhia te Poari ki etahi atu mana —penei ra me nga mana o te Poari Whenua Karauna o te Koroni nei—mehemea ra ka' taea te whakarereke etahi wahi o aua mana, kia eke mai ai ki runga ki nga hiahia o nga Maori ? Hone Heke : Ka whakaae ahau kia hoatu ena mana kite Poari kia taea ai c ratou te whakahaere nga mahi i runga anake ia i nga huarahi c hiahiatia c nga tangata no ratou nga whenua i te wa i tukua atu ai aua whenua kite Poari kia whakahaerea. 15. Honore Timi Kara : Me pehea ki a koe te tv o tenei Kaunihera, Poari ranei. Me Maori katoa ranei, me Pakeha ranei etahi ? Hone Heke : Xi runga i te ahua o nga kaupapa kupu kua takoto i au, kahore aku tino mea mo te ahua o nga tangata mo te Poari. Mehemea ka kiia hei Pakeha katoa, koia tena. Xi te kiia kia maha ake nga Pakeha kia iti iho nga Maori, koia tena. Xi te kiia etc Paremete ko nga Maori kia tokomaha kia iti nga Pakeha, c pai ana, he mea hoki tena c tatata kau atu ki to te Maori hiahia. Engari kite kiia kia whakawhiwhia taua Poari ki nga mana o te Kooti Whenua Maori, hei kona, ko nga Maori kia tokomaha ake ki runga ite Poari. Engari he mana tena kahore c tika kia hoatu kite Poari. Mehemea ka whakaturia he Poari, ahakoa he aha nga mana c hoatu kite Poari, mehemea ka eke nga ritenga o te Pire ki runga ki taku—-me waiho ano ki nga tangata no ratou nga whenua te mana tuku kite Poari, pupuri ranei i o ratou whenua ki waho i te Poari— ka penei ake ahau —kahore he tikanga moku i whai nui ai kia hanga c ahau he kupu kii, ko wai, hei a wai ranei, he tangata mo te Poari. Notemea kite oti te hanga he tikanga, ki nga tangata ano te mana, whakaae, whakakahore, ka waiho ki aua tangata te whakaaro, kia tuku ranei ratou i o ratou whenua ki roto i te ringa o te Poari kahore ranei.
Te Maka (Mr. Monk) : Etc Tiamana, he kupu taku kite Komiti nei, he mea kite cau i roto i nga huihuinga c toru o tenei Paremete. Ko te nuinga o nga putake c tae mai nei kite aroaro o te Komiti mo nga Mea Maori, ko nga ture c pa nei ki nga whenua Maori kia whakatikatikaina. Ko te take o tena ahua he mohio no nga Maori kaore i te tika ta tatou mahi ki a ratou, ara, kaore ite tika te mahi a nga Kawanatanga ki a ratou; engari kaore au iteki na tenei Kawanatanga na te hea Kawanatanga ranei aua mahi he ki nga Maori. Na, etc Tiamana, ki toku nei whakaaro, kotahi tonu te huarahi c ora ai nga mate o te iwi Maori, me hanga he tikanga c tino mohio ai ratou, ko o ratou tika, ko o ratou taonga, me o ratou whenua, kei te rite tonu te pumau tika ki a ratou ano he Pakeha ratou. Aki taku mohio ko te Pire mana tena ahua c whakatutuki, me penei
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te tikanga : me tino tuku atu c te Kawanatanga ki nga Maori ano te mana hoko atu, riihi atu, tuku atu ranei i o ratou whenua ki a ratou c pai ai, otira me te mau ano o etahi here ki runga, ara, ko te whenua Maori c riihitia ai c tukuna ai ranei hei raro anake i nga tikanga c mana nei mo nga whenua ote Karauna ;ko nga eka c tukuna ana c riihitia ana ranei kite tangata kotahi, kaua c nuku atu i nga eka kua whakaritea nei ma te tangata kotahi i raro i te Ture Whakanohonoho Whenua kite Tangata. Nana ka iti iho te whenua, kei nga tangata c tango whenua ano mo ratou te tikanga o tena. Xi te pena he tikanga ka tere tonu te mohio o nga Maori kaore ite rere ke nga ture mo ratou i nga ture mo nga Pakeha. Tena ko te Komiti Maori, Poari Maori ranei, c meatia nei kia whakaturia i raro i tetahi ture, ki taku mohio, he raruraru anake te mutunga o tena. Te Tiamana : Taihoa koa, eTe Maka; ko te take i whakaaetia ai enei pitihana a nga Maori kia tukua mai kite Komiti nei, he mea kia puakina mai ai c nga Maori o ratou whakaaro mo runga i tenei putake. Te Maka : He whakarapopoto taku i nga whakaaro o nga Maori, c ai ra ki taku i mohio ai, kia poto ai te taima o te Komiti c pau. Te Tiamana: Kia mene mai ra nga whakaaro o nga mema Maori hei reira nga mema Pakeha ote Komiti whiriwhiri ai whakamatau ai kite whakatinana i nga whakaaro i whakatakotoria mai ki o tatou aroaro c nga mema Maori, ma tera ka marama te kaupapa hei whiriwhiringa ma te Komiti. Te Maka : He kupu kotahi, c te Tiamana : Xi taku mohio he mea tika kia whakaturia c nga Maori etahi Poari Maori mo ratou. Ma tera c kore ai ratou c mate penei me ratou c mate nei i nga whakatau ate Kooti Whenua Maori. Xi te whakaturia c nga Maori he Komiti mo ratou, haunga te tatari rawa ki tetahi Ture kia paahitia c te Paremete, ara, ma ratou c whakatu noa ake aua Komiti, hei uiui hei whakatau i nga tangata mo ratou te whenua papatupu, te poraka ranei, a i mua ote haringa atu kite aroaro ote Kooti Whenua Maori, me haina rawa ta ratou i whakatau ai c nga tangata katoa i whakataua ai ki a ratou te whenua, ma tera ka kore c pau nui a ratou moni, ka kore nga Maori c uru ki roto i nga Kooti tautohetohe ai, ka kore nga keehi piira me nga pitihana mo aua tv mea c tae mai nei iia tau iia tau ki tenei Komiti. Na, ko tetahi, hei hoa mo tenei Ture, me tino pai te tiaki kia kore ai c taea c nga Maori te hokohoko katoa atu i o ratou whenua, te whakarawakore noa iho i a ratou, penei me ta ratou mahi i roto i nga tau c iwa, tekau ranei, kua pahemo ake nei. Na, etc Tiamana, ki taku mohio kua whakarapopototia atu eau i enei kopu torutoru tetahi kaupapa Ture hei paahi ma te Paremete c ngata ai nga hiahia o nga iwi Maori, c manawanui ai ratou, c mohio ai, kei te tino hiahia tatou kite mahi tika ki a ratou. Xi taku mahara kite whakaturia he Poari, heoi te mea c pahure i tera he whakapau moni he whakatupu raruraru, a, te tukunga iho, ka moumou noa iho nga moni c whakapaua ana. Xi taku, kaati he mana hei whakatau i nga taitara ki nga whenua ko te Kooti Whenua Maori anake.
Taitb, tb 21 o Hepetema, 1899. Wi Peee, ka patairia. Te Tiamana: He kupu ranei aWi Pere mo te pitihana c takoto nei te aroaro ote Komiti ? Wi Pere : Ka korero ahau i aku kupu tautoko mo te Pire Poari ate Pirimia o tera tau. Taku mahi- i roto i tenei tuunga o te Paremete he tohe kia whakaurua ki roto ki taua Pire nga menemana i paahitia etc hui ki Papawai, ara, nga mea c tika ana kia whakaurua. Ko tena Pire tae noa ki nga menemana i mania c te hui ki Papawai, kei roto katoa i te ripoata a te Komiti mo nga Mea Maori o tera tau, a ko taku hiahia kia whakaurua i naianei etahi atu menemana ano c tika ana kia whakaurua, mehemea ra kaore i uru ki nga mea i mahia etc hui ki Papawai. Kaati, ko nga iwi Maori o te Tai Rawhiti c hiahia ana kia paahitia te Pire Poari mo te takiwa o te Tai Eawhiti anake, a ko te take i mea ai nga iwi o te Tai Rawhiti kia paahitia tenei Pire Poari mo to ratou takiwa anake, na te kaha rawa o nga iwi Maori o te Tai Hauauru kite whakahe ki taua Pire i tera tau. No reira kaore he tikanga ki tohu nei whakaaro c hangaia houtia ai ano i naianei he menemana i waho atu o nga mea kua oti te mahi c nga iwi o te Tai Eawhiti a kua tukua mai nei kite Komiti. Heoi ano, ma te Komiti c ata whiriwhiri nga mea c tika ana ki ta ratou titiro, a ko ena c whakauru atu ki taua Pire, i te mea kua tino mohio marama nga iwi o te Tai Rawhiti ka ora pai ratou eka paahitia te Pire a te Pirimia. Kaati, me whakapoto eau aku kupu; me korero ahau mo enei ra tonu. Kua tono mai tenei Komiti me te Kawanatanga kia korero matou nga mema Maori i o matou whakaaro hei whakamarama atu kite Kawanatanga i nga mohiotanga c taea ai c ratou te hanga tetahi Pire kotahi mo te Motu katoa. Kaati, ka korero atu ahau i oku nei hiahia. Te take tuatahi hei korero maku ko te upoko ote Pire Poari ate Pirimia o tera tau, ara, me mutu rawa te hoko o nga whenua Maori katoa puta noa i nga wahi katoa 0 Niu Tireni. Ko te mea tuatahi tonu tena c hiahia ana au kia whakaotia, a me hanga hoki hei tikanga mau rawa, uu tonu, kia kore rawa ai c taea c tetahi atu Kawanatanga a muri atu 1 tenei te whakatuwhera ano i te mahi hoko whenua Maori. E mea ana ahau me uru ki roto ki tenei Pire he tikanga hei tino rahui i nga whenua Maori katoa c toe ana i naianei ki nga Maori, kia pumau ai aua whenua ki a ratou ake tonu atu, timata atu i tenei ra a taea noatia te mutunga o te ao, hei tohu whakamaharatanga mo te roa o te wa o Kuini Wikitoria c noho ana i runga ite torona o ona tupuna, a hei koha hoki mo te taenga kite rima tekau ma waru ona tau c tv ana hei Kuini mo nga iwi Maori o Niu Tireni —no te mea ko taua Pire a te Pirimia i hanga i runga ite tino kupu whakahau ate Kuini kia paahitia he ture hei ora mo te iwi Maori. Ko tena Pire Poari he mea inoi atu na nga rangatira Maori o Niu Tireni i te wa i tukunga atu o ta ratou pukapuka mihi ki ate Kuini ite taenga kite ono tekau tau nga tau o tona kuinitanga. No reira kaore au c pai kia paahitia he ture whakamutu i te hoko o nga whenua Maori mo enei ra anake, he ture ranei c taea ai c tetahi atu Pirimia a muri atu nei te whakarereke, te whakakore atu, te
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I.—3a
whakapuare ano ranei i te hoko; ta te mea ko taua mahi hoko whenua Maori c mohio ana au he tino take nui i roto i nga tikanga whakahaere a nga Kawanatanga katoa. E mohio aua hoki a ia Pirimia ma tana whakaae kia hokona nga whenua Maori c tirohia paitia ai ia c nga iwi Pakeha, ko te hiahia hoki tena o te iwi Pakeha; engari mehemea ka whakaaetia taku korero c ki nei me rahui nga whenua Maori hei tohu whakamaharatanga mo te roa o te kuinitanga o Kuini Wikitoria, katahi ka rite te hiahia o nga Maori. Xi te penatia katahi ka ngahorohoro atu enei kutu c kai nei i te toto o nga iwi Maori, a ka ora ratou mo ake tonu atu. Xi taku hoki ko nga iwi Pakeha nga kutu c ngongo nei i nga toto ote iwi Maori. Mehemea ka mahia taku tikanga, ara, kite rahuitia nga morehu whenua ote Maori hei whenua tuturu mo ratou, katahi ka mau ki a ratou te wha miriona eka c toe nei. Kaore c taea c nga Pakeha te ki mai ki ahau c hara ratou ite kutu c kai ana i o matou toto. Te tuarua o aku take hei korero atu maku ko te Poari; me whakatu he Poari hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori. Engari kia hoki atu taku kupu mo taku take tuatahi, c penei ana au, a te ra tonu c paahi ai aua Pire hei Ture— ara, te Pire whakamutu atu ite hoko whenua Maori—a tona meneti tonu c paahi ai, me pa tonu taua ture ki runga ki nga whenua Maori katoa i tenei Motu. Muri tata iho me whakatu ko te Poari mana c whakahaere nga whenua Maori—ko nga Komiti Poraka hei hoa mahi mo te Poari i ana mahi. Mehemea kite hiahia nga tangata tokorua o tetahi poraka whenua, te tangata kotahi noa ranei, kite tuku i tona whenua ki raro kite mana ote Poari ma te Poari c whakahaere, me ahei ia kite pera aki te mahi tahi me te Poari mo runga i tena tikanga. Ko nga poraka nunui ma nga Komiti Poraka c tuku atu ki raro i te mana o te Poari, a ko ia whenua pera ma nga tangata nona te whenua c whakaae kia riro ki raro i te mana whakahaere o te Poari. Me ahei nga tangata no ratou nga poraka whenua kite tuku i aua whenua kite Poari, me te tohutohu atu kite Poari i nga wahi c mea ana ratou kia riihitia, me nga wahi c hiahia ana ratou kia whakatoea hei whenua noho hei whenua mahi ma ratou. A ka oti te whenua te tuku atu ki roto ki nga ringa ote Poari, hei reira me tahuri te Poari kite whakahaere i taua whenua hei painga mo nga tangata nona; a c ki ana ahau kaore c tika kia whakaaetia kia riro nga poraka whenua o roto i te takiwa o te Tai Rawhiti kia riihitia, c tetahi, c etahi ranei o nga tangata, c nga tangata katoa ranei no ratou taua whenua. Xi taku, mehemea kite tukuna te tangata kotahi, nga tangata tokomaha ranei, te hapu ranei, nona tetahi poraka whenua, mana ake, ma ratou ake ranei, c whakarite nga tikanga tuku atu i taua whenua kite riihi, heoi ano, te tukunga iho o tena ahua ko nga riihi kino, whakarihariha, c kite nei tatou i roto i enei tau kua pahemo ake nei; engari ki taku mohio mehemea kite hiahia nga tangata tokorua, tokotoru, tokowha, tokomaha atu ranei, nona te whenua kia tukuna taua whenua kite riihi, —me haere ratou kite Poari whakaatu atu ai ito ratou hiahia riihi, tuku pewhea atu ranei, i taua whenua, a, kua tohungia atu kite Poari nga tikanga c hiahiatia ana, heoi ma te Poari c whakaae c whakamana to ratou hiahia; a ki taku mahara ma kona ka mutu atu nga raruraru katoa o tena mea o te riihi whenua Maori. Engari mo runga mo nga mahi paamu c kaha noa atu ana c mohio noa atu ana te Maori kite whakahaere i nga tikanga katoa ote mahi paamu, a kite ara tetahi mea c kore c taea c ratou, me tuku atu c ratou tena take kite Poari mana c whakahaere. Engari kaore ahau c hiahia ana kia hoatu kite Poari te mana kite whakarite i nga wahi ote whenua hei pupuri ma nga tangata nona te whenua hei kainga, hei mahinga, hei tuunga wharekarakia, hei aha atu ranei: c mea ana ahau ma nga tangata no ratou te whenua ena ahua tikanga katoa c whakahaere. Ma ratou c tohutohu atu kite Poari nga wahi ote whenua c hiahia ana ratou kia tukua kite riihi, me te wahi c hiahia ana ratou kia puritia, a ka oti o ratou hiahia te tohutohu atu kite Poari, heoi te mahi ma te Poari ko te whakatutuki tika i nga hiahia o nga tangata. Ko te mana kei runga i te Poari ko te Kawanatanga me nga Minita o te Kawanatanga, ma ratou c tiaki te Poari me ana mahi me nga tika o nga tangata me o ratou whenua i runga i te whakahaere a te Poari, —a me whai mana te Kawanatanga kite whakatakoto huarahi mo te whakahaerenga me te whakamahinga o nga whenua. Kaore ahau c whakaae kia whakaturia tetahi Poari me te hoatu ki a ia anake te mana kite whakahaere i nga whenua, ta te mea kite pena te tikanga ka taea c te Tiamana, c te Tumuaki ranei, o taua Poari te tahae i nga moni, tena c tae pea kite £4,000, ki te £5,000 ranei, ka oma, a nohea c taea te whai atu c nga Maori nona te whenua. Koia au i mea ai ko te Kawanatanga hei mana nui ki runga ake i te Poari. Te rua o aku take i pera ai taku hiahia mo nga whenua, tena c hiahia te Poari, nga tangata ranei nona te whenua, kia namaia he moni hei awhina i nga mahi paamu me te whakapai ite whenua. Mehemea kua mohio nga Pakeha ko te Kawanatanga te upoko me te mana kei runga i te Poari, kaore rawa ratou c awangawanga kite tuku moni nama ki runga i aua whenua, kua mohio ratou he hunga whai mana tera, he hunga whakahaere pono. Kaati, ko tetahi o nga tino take i kaha rawa ai taku hiahia kia whakaturia taua Poari i naianei tonu, koia tenei, he maha no nga huarahi c tikina mai ai c murua atu ai i nga iwi Maori o ratou whenua. E murua ana mo te nama, c murua ana mo te mokete, a c murua ana mo nga moni ruri; koia ahau i mea ai hoatu ki roto kite ringa ote Kawanatanga mana c tiaki te ora o nga iwi Maori o te Tai Rawhiti—tangohia atu i nga ringaringa o nga Pakeha noa. Maku c whakamarama nga mate o nga Maori ote Tai Rawhiti i nga Pakeha noa—notemea i runga i nga ture c mana nei i naianei kei te mate rawa atu nga Maori i nga mahi a nga Pakeha c whakatupu nei i nga mahi whakararuraru, i nga mahi kino, me te whakataritari pakanga c riro atu ai nga whenua o nga Maori i a ratou. Engari mehemea ka whakaturia te Poari katahi ka kore atu etahi o nga mate maha c peehi nei i te iwi Maori, maku c whakamarama atu etahi o aua mate. Tuatahi, ko te tiute pane Kuini; tuarua, ko te utunga i nga kai-whakahaere, me nga kai-hoko whenua a te Kawanatanga, ka kore atu era, me nga roia—ara, nga moni c utua ana ki nga roia—me nga kai-whakamaori, ka kore atu, me nga Pakeha kino c whakakiikii nei i nga koroheke Maori kuare me nga tamariki kite hoko i o ratou whenua, me te takoto mangere, mahikore, o nga whenua Maori, ka kore katoa atu ena ahua, a ka hangaia hoki he tikanga c puta mai ai he oranga i aua whenua. I naianei hoki c utua aua nga roia me nga kai-whakamaori me nga Maori
I.—3a.
porangi c haere nei kite whakakiikii i nga tangata kia riihitia o ratou whenua, c utua katoatia ana era tangata; koia ahau ikiaiki te whakaturia te Poari ka kore katoa atu ena raruraru, ka mutu atu ena tangata hei utunga, aka mutu hoki te takoto mahikore o nga whenua. I runga i nga ture me nga tikanga c mana nei i naianei, mehemea he whenua toku c hiahia ana au hei riihi atu maku, me matua utu c au ena raruraru katoa—nga kai-whakamaori me era atu mea kua whakamaramatia atu nei c au—a mehemea c rua pea hereni te wariu ote eka ote whenua, ka riro te hereni kotahi ote eka hei utu i ena raruraru. Titiro hoki ki nga whenua ngaherehere :ki te riihitia etc Maori kite Pakeha c rua pea kapa ite eka te moni c hoatu ki nga Maori, a hei te ngaherehere tino pai rawa tena c tae kite hikipene ite eka te utu ote reti; a c tino mohio ana au mehemea kua riro i te Poari te whakahaere, ka tae pea kite hereni ite eka mo aua whenua c riihitia nei mo te hikipene i naianei, a ka whiwhi nga Maori i tena hikipene c puritia atu nei i a ratou i raro i nga tikanga c mana ana i naianei. Ako nga whenua c riihitia ana c nga Maori i naianei mo te ss. ite eka, mehemea kua riro ite Poari te whakahaere tena c tae kite 15s. mo te eka, no te mea katahi ka mohio tuturu nga tangata c hiahia ana kite riihi whenua Maori kaore he huarahi ke atu c whiwhi ai ratou i aua whenua, engari ma te Poari anake c whakaae, no reira ka haere tonu ratou kite Poari whakarite atu ai; ta te mea i runga i nga ture c mana nei i naianei, mehemea tera tetahi whenua Maori c ahei ana, a c hiahiatia ana c nga tangata nona, kia tukua kite riihi, kite tae mai he Pakeha ki tetahi o nga Maori no ratou tena whenua kite whakahua i tana utu c whakaae ana ia kite hoatu, a kite kore taua Maori c whakaae ki taua moni, a kaore te Pakeha ra c whakaae kite whakanuku ake ite utu, katahi ka ki atu te Pakeha ra, " Kaati, heoi taku mea atu ki a koe, ko tenei ka haere ahau ki a mea tangata whakarite atu ai," a ka haere ki tetahi atu tangata o taua whenua c whakaaro ana ia tera c ngawari mai ki tana tikanga, a c whakaae mai ki tana utu iti. Engari, mehemea kua hoatu kite Poari anake te mana whakahaere i nga riihi Maori, katahi ka rite tonu te tv o nga whenua Maori ki nga whenua c riihitia ana etc Pakeha kite Pakeha ano. Ko te take tena c tino kaha nei ahau kite ki atu ki nga Maori o te Tai Rawhiti me penei ta ratou whakaaro, notemea ko nga whenua Maori katoa puta noa i Niu Tireni c mate ana i raro i enei ture c mana nei, he kore no te Maori kaore c mohio ana kite whakahaere tika i ana mea me ona whenua cka waihotia atu ki aia tena mana, ko te hoatutanga hoki o tena mana ki a ia tetahi o nga tino take c riro pohehe noa iho nei ona whenua me ona taonga ite tangata. E whakaae noa atu ana ahau kia mau tonu ki nga Maori te mana whakahaere'i o ratou whenua mo runga mo nga mahi paamu, mahi taonga, hipi, kau, me era atu mea pera. Kaore he tikanga kia tangohia atu i a ratou tena mana etc Poari. Tetahi mea ano c tika ana kia mahia, ki taku mohio, koia tenei; ko nga whenua c puritia noatia ana, kaore c whakamahia ana c nga Maori, me whai mana te Poari kite whakaputa kupu penei: kite kore c whakamahia aua whenua i mua o te paunga o tetahi takiwa i ata whakaritea c te Poari, me tango etc Poari ki aia te mana whakahaere o aua whenua; mana c whakamahi kia whai hua ai, hei painga ano mo nga Maori tera tikanga, ara, mo nga tangata mangere kaore nei c whakamahi ana i o ratou whenua. Tetahi mea c tino hiahiatia ana c nga Maori ote Tai Rawhiti, ahe maha ano nga pitihana kua kokirihia cau kite Whare mo runga i tenei take, ara, kia hoatu ki a ratou he tikanga ngawari c taea ai c ratou te nama moni hei whakamahi hei whakapai i o ratou whenua—kia kaua c waiho ko nga peeke anake me era atu ropu hei whakaputa moni nama ki a ratou, c utu nei ratou ite itareti nui i roto i enei ra. Mehemea ka paahitia he ture pena me taku eki ake nei—me te uru ano ki roto te tino upoko o taku hiahia—ka tahi matou ka whakaae kite tuku atu kite Kawanatanga i te mana whakahaere o o matou whenua; ta te mea, kua mohio i naianei nga iwi Maori o te Tai Rawhiti, c he ana ta ratou mahara i nga tau kua pahemo ake nei c kaha ana ratou kite whakahaere tika i a ratou tikanga me o ratou whenua. Kua tino kite kua tino mohio ratou c kore ratou c kaha kite whakahaere i era tv mahi. Te mea mana c whakatuturu tena, me ki atu ahau kei waenganui o te kotahi miriona me te hawhe ahu atu pea kite rua miriona nga eka whenua c toe ana ki nga Maori ote Tai Rawhiti i naianei: I tae pea kite tekau miriona eka te huihuinga katoatanga o o ratou whenua i mua, a me ki kotahi pea miriona me te hawhe c toe ana ki a ratou i naianei. No ratou ano te he, na ratou ano i tuku i o ratou whenua kiapahuhu haere atu i o ratou ringaringa. Koia ahau iki ake ai kua tino whakahaua mai ahau c nga iwi ote Tai Rawhiti maku c korero atu kite Kawanatanga to ratou hiahia kia tukua atu o ratou whenua ki roto kite ringa ote Kawanatanga mana c tiaki c whakatoe. Ko te tino mea nui c hiahiatia ana c nga Maori o te Tai Rawhiti, i runga atu i nga mea katoa, ko te mahi hoko whenua Maori me mutu rawa i naianei, a ake tonu atu, i runga i etahi tikanga mau rawa c kore rawa ai c taea c tetahi atu Kawanatanga a muri atu nei te whakakorikori, te whakatuwhera ano ranei i tena mahi hoko whenua. Xi te kore c penatia, kaati, heoi ta ratou kupu, kaore te Kawanatanga c whakaaro pono ana ite ora mo ratou, kaore c pai ana kia puta mai he tino ora ki a ratou. Na, mo te Poari, c ki ana etahi tangata, mehemea ka whakatungia tena Poari ka mate nga Maori, ka tangohia c taua Poari nga whenua aka whakangaromia atu c ia. Kaati, ko nga iwi ote Tai Rawhiti c tino mohio ana kaore he take c wehi ai ratou kei he te whakahaere ate Poari; ta te mea ka roa haere nga wa ka taea noatia atu te whakatikatika o nga mea tena c kitea c tika ana kia whakatikaina mo runga mo nga mana me nga whakahaere ranei a te Poari. No reira ka hoki ano ahau ki taku kupu c whakapaua nei cau taku kaha katoa kite ki atu ki tenei Komiti, heoi ano te mea tuatahi c tonoa ana c nga iwi o te Tai Rawhiti, kia whakamutua rawatia te hoko i nga whenua Maori. Kaati kua kiia kia mahia he Pire i tenei tau, taku hiahia me whakatuturu te whakaupokotanga o nga take nunui katoa o te Pire o tera tau, kei te kite marama ahau c whakaaro pono ana te Pirimia mo runga i tenei mea, kaore oku awangawanga kite ki kaore kau ona hiahia kite tinihanga kite whakamate ranei i nga iwi Maori. Koia au eki ake nei, c whakaae ana ahau kia mahia mai c te Kawanatanga he Pire mo nga takiwa c toru, c tv nei matou ko aku hoa mema Maori tokorua hei mema mo reira, i runga ano i nga huarahi kua oti nei c au te whakamarama atu kite Komiti. Xi te pakeke tonu a Henare Kaihau me Maori anake nga mema ote Poari o tona takiwa, he aha te whakaaetia ai tana tono mo tona takiwa, kite kiia me pera, aki nga Maori
16
17
I.—3a
anake te mana kite whakahaere i a ratou mahi me o ratou tikanga, kaati me tuku tena tikanga mo tona takiwa anake, ka tautokona c au. He aha koia te he kia hoatu tena mana ki a ratou mehemea c pera ana to ratou hiahia, hei whakamatau koa ite ahua ? Aki te kitea, taihoa ake nei, kaore i pai, heoi me tuku ratou ki raro i te Poari c ki nei ahau kia whakaturia. Te take iki ai ahau kaore c taea c te iwi Maori te whakahaere tika i o ratou tikanga me a ratou mahi c puta ai he painga kia ratou, he kore tonu no ratou kaore c mohio ana ki nga huarahi o tera mahi, kaore ratou c mohio kite mahi moni, ama te moni anake hoki ka taea ai nga mahi. Kaati ra, mehemea c mohio ana era Maori kua kitea c ratou he huarahi c taea ai c ratou nga moni c oti ai ta ratou whakaaro, tukua kia whakamatauria to ratou mohiotanga. Engari me whakamarama ano eau kite Komiti, he kupu whakangawari tenei naku ake. Kua oti hoki eau te korero atu kite Komiti te hiahia o toku iwi nana nei au i tuku mai ki konei kite tono atu i te Poari kia hoatu mo to ratou takiwa anake, engari ko te tikanga whakamutu ite hoko me pa tera kite Motu katoa nei. Ama nga Maori c kimi c rapu mehemea tera atu ano ranei etahi atu tikanga whakahaere c kitea c ratou, aka rite i a ratou te whiriwhir.i, me whakamatau, ka kitea c pai ana, me tahuri kite whakarite, a tena pea c taea te whakakotahi nga whakaaro c rua. He aha koia te he o tera ? 1. Te Makarini : Kei whea nga rohe o tou takiwa, timata atu i whea ka mutu mai i whea? Wi Pere : Ko nga rohe ano ote Takiwa Pootitanga mema Maori ote Tai Eawhiti. Eki ana ahau mehemea he pono te hiahia o te Whare kia mania he tikanga hei ora mo te iwi Maori, me paahi c ratou tenei Pire mo te takiwa o te Tai Eawhiti, a me waiho ma nga mahi a taua Poari i roto i taua takiwa c whakamatau c whakaatu te tika te he ranei o ta matou kupu c ki nei ka ora matou i te Pire Poari, a tena pea c tono era atu takiwa o te Motu, mehemea c kite ana ratou he ture pai taua ture, kia whakaurua o ratou takiwa ki raro i tona whakahaere ; mehemea ranei kite mohio ratou kua kitea c ratou tetahi tikanga pai atu i tena ma ratou c whakaatu mai, a ka mohiotia c pai ke atu ana ta ratou ita matou, katahi pea ka tika kia hanga he ture pera; engari ko nga hiahia o te Tai Eawhiti i korerotia mai ki ahau hei korero atu maku ki tenei Komiti me tenei Whare, ko te Pire Poari —a te Pirimia —me paahi mo to ratou takiwa. Kaati, kua kiia mai ka taea pea he Pire hou te hanga, heoi, ma te Kawanatanga c hanga i nga rarangi hove mahara ana ratou: Mehemea ko te Pire tuatahi hei paahi ma tatou, kaati, kua oti mai nga rarangi hou te hanga, a mehemea ranei ka hanga mai cte Kawanatanga he Pire hove pai noa atu aua ahau kia peratia—ma te Kawanatanga c hanga; engari kite kore c taea cte Kawanatanga te hanga tena Pire hove korerotia nei, heoi ra taku, me paahi ko te Pire Poari o tera tau. Kaore rawa oku nei wehi kai puba mai he mate i raro i taua Pire, engari he ora anake. Paahitia mai mo te Tai Eawhiti. Mehemea ka terete whakatakoto mai o te Pire hou, me homai kia paahitia, engari c tino mea ana ahau kaore rawa c tika kia whakaroaina te paahitanga ote Pire Poari mo te Tai Eawhiti. Xi te paangia te tangata c te mate kaore c tika kia whakaroaina te hoatutanga o te rongoa mo tona mate, engari me terete hoatu i te wa tuatahi tonu c taea ai, engari ano te tangata he mate hangahanga noa iho nei tona, tera pea c whakaae kia roa te hoatuanga o tona rongoa—ina ra ka taea c tena tv tangata te waiho atu mo te ahiahi ranei, mo te ata ranei apopo, a kaore c tino kino rawa. Na, he kupu tenei i mahue i au —mo nga whenua c takoto ana he taumahatanga i runga, ara, mokete tetahi atu mea ranei, kaua era tv whenua c kuhua atu ki raro i te whakahaere a te Poari, ta te mea kua eke he taumahatanga ki runga i raro i nga ture c mana nei i naianei, no reira kaore c tika kia riro mai ma te Poari era whenua c whakahaere. Taihoa, kia ata wetekia atu ena taumahatanga ka homai ai ki raro i te whakahaere a te Poari ; engari ko nga whenua kei te Pakeha i naianei c riihi ana, me eke nga tikanga arai i te hoko o te ture hove korerotia nei ki runga ki era whenua, tetahi kaua c whai mana nga Pakeha, kei a ratou aua whenua c reti ana, kite whakahou ano i a ratou riihi, engari kite hiahia te Pakeha kite tango riihi hou me tango anake eia i raro ite Ture hou. Heoi pea aku korero. 2. Henare Kaihau : Taku mohio kite ahua oto korero c penei aua, c mea ana kae kia paahitia tenei Pire mo te Tai Eawhiti anake ? Wi Pere : Ac ra, taku hiahia tena i haere mai ai au i te kainga ka tae mai ki konei—he tono kia paahitia taua Pire ; engari i te mea kua tae mai nei au katahi au ka rongo c meatia ana kia hanga he Pire hei riwhi mo taua Pire. 3. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, c penei ana to korero, kaore koe c mea ana kia pa taua Pire ki tetahi atu takiwa, engari kite Tai Eawhiti anake ? Wi Pere : Ac, engari mo te Poari anake tena kupu aku, ko te tikanga whakamutu i te hoko whenua me pa kite Motu katoa. Mehemea c hiahia ana koe kia whakaturia he Poari he Komiti ranei mo roto i tou takiwa, mau tena c tono. 4. Henare Kaihau : I ki ia nei koe me mutu rawa nga hoko katoa ? Wi Pere: Ac. 5. Henare Kaihau : Nga hoko ki a wai ? Nga hoko a wai? Wi Pere : A te Kawanatanga, a nga Pakeha noa ano hoki. 6. Henare Kaihau: Kei te hoko koia nga Pakeha noa i nga whenua Maori i naianei ? Wi Pere : Ac ra, kei te hoko i nga whenua pakupaku i raro i nga ture Pakeha c mana nei i naianei. 7. Henare Kaihau :A, c mea ana koia koe ko nga whenua ririki kua wehea kite tangata kotahi me arai rawa era kia kore ai c taea te hoko ? Wi Pere : Ac. Mo te taha ki nga tangata nona etahi whenua, tena c kitea kaore c tika kia pa te Pire hei arai i te hoko o aua tv whenua—ma te Kawanatanga ma te Poari ranei c ki ko wai ma aua tangata, ara, nga tangata kua pakehatia to ratou ahua. Tera hoki tetahi wahine kei to matou takiwa ko Airini Tonore, kua pakehatia tera wahine kite tikanga, a akuanei kaore pea ia c pai kia eke nga tikanga o tenei Pire ki runga ki tona whenua. 8. Henare Kaihau : E mea ana koe ko nga tangata c pupuri nei i o ratou whenua i naianei i runga i te ritenga fee-simple i raro i te ture Pakeha me kaua c tukua kia hoko i o ratou whenua, ahakoa kite hiahia ratou kite hoko ? 3—l. 3a.
I.— 3a.
Wi Pere : Ac, katoa ; ko te take o tena kupu aku, ko fee tino take tena c aue tonu nei tatou i nga ra katoa, koia tena ko taua mahi hokohoko whenua Maori; ka hoko te tangata i ona whenua katoa ka pau katoa atu, katahi ka tangi haere kite Kawanatanga kia hoatu he whenua mona. Tera hoki etahi kaumatua Maori kei Waikato kua hoko i o ratou whenua katoa kore rawa he wahi i toe, kia kaha ai ratou kite tono penihana i raro ite Ture Penihana Kaumatua. Nui atu taku kino ki nga mahi a ena tv tangata. 9. Henare Kaihau: Mehemea he whenua tou c puritia ana c koe i raro i tetahi Karauna karaati, tetahi atu ahua pukapuka taitara ranei, c puare ana kite hoko ki etahi atu aronga tuku ranei, c mea ana koe me tango atu tena mana i a koe, me here rawa taua whenua kia kore rawa c taea te aha te aha ? Wi Pere : E patai ana koe mo te whenua kua oti te riihi te hoko ranei ? 10. Henare Kaihau: Ahakoa kaore ano i riihitia, i hokona ranei, engari i raro ite ahua ote Karauna Karaati c ahei aua kia peratia c koe ? Wi Pere : Ac, mehemea kaore ano taua whenua i tukuna ki nga tikanga pera, c mea ana ahau me pa nga ritenga o te Ture hou ki nga whenua pera katoa c puare ana kite riihi, kite hoko, ki te mokete, mehemea kaore ano aua tikanga kia whakahaerea ki runga kite whenua. Ko nga ritenga o te Ture hou kaua c pa ki nga whenua kua hokona, kua riihitia, kua moketengia ranei c te tangata nona i roto i enei ra ite mea c takoto here kore ana te whenua. Maku c whakamarama atu i runga ito patai. Noku tetahi poraka whenua 20,000 eka, ko tena 20,000 eka kua hoatu eau kite ringa o taku kai-tiaki—te tangata kei aia c tiaki ana aku whenua katoa—a kua whakaaetia atu c au kia moketengia c taku kai-tiaki tetahi wahi o taua whenua hei whakaea i nga taumahatanga c tau ana ki runga ki era atu whenua oku, a kua whakaaetia ano c au kia riihitia c ia etahi atu wahi mo runga ano i tena ahua. Kaati, eki ana ahau ko nga whenua pera kaua c ekengia c nga ritenga o tenei Ture hou, engari ko nga whenua kei te toe ki nga Maori, kaore nei he raruraru i runga, ko ena nga mea c hoatu ki raro kite Ture hou. Ko nga whenua kua riro tetahi taha te hoko, ko te wahi c toe ana me riro ki raro i te whakahaere ote Ture hou. Mehemea kotahi anake te tangata c toe ana o tetahi whenua waiho ma te Poari c whakatau me hoko ranei taua tangata kaua ranei hei c hoko ; c penei ana ahau kite haere atu taua tangata kite Poari kite ki atu, " Ko ahau anake te tangata c toe ana —kua hoko katoa etahi, no reifa kaore he painga c pupuri ai au i toku paanga," ma te Poari c rapu c uiui kia mohiotia ai he whenua ano ranei o taua tangata c nui ana hei oranga mona, kite kitea, ac, c nui ana, kaati, me whakaae kia hoko taua tangata. 11. Henare Kaihau: Kaati ra, c penei ana taku titiro ki to korero, he whenua ou c takoto ana l raro i etahi taumahatanga, ac ki ana koe kaua te Paori c whai mana ki runga ki ena; engari mo te taha kite tangata kaore nei he raruraru i runga i ona whenua, a c hiahia ana kite hoko, c mea ana koe ko koe c puta ki waho o te mana whakahaere o te Paori, ko ia kauaka ; me pewhea c taea ai te whakarite ena korero c rua ? Wi Pere : E penei ana taku korero, me whai mana te Paori kite nama moni ki nga tangata c takoto taumaha ana o ratou whenua, kia puare ai he huarahi c haere atu ai aua tangata kite Poari tono atu ai kia homai he moni hei whakaea atu i nga raruraru kei runga kei o ratou whenua c tau ana. 12. Henare Kaihau: Ac ra, engari kaore koia koe c kite ana, i runga ano ito korero whakamarama, kaore tou whenua c riro ki raro kite whakahaere a te Poari—tera ke atu te tangata mana c hoatu te moni hei utu i ou raruraru, engari mo te taha kite Maori i korerotia ra c koe ma te Poari anake a ia c whakaora ? Wi Pere : Kaore; c penei ke ana taku korero :Ko era o aku whenua c takoto pera ana kaua c riro ki raro i te Poari, engari ko era atu o aku whenua kaore i te pera te takoto me taka ki raro ite Poari. Mehemea kite whakaae te Poari mana c tango c whakarite ena raruraru katoa oku c pai noa atu ana ahau kia tukuna atu ki a ia, c hara i te mea ko aku taumahatanga anake me aku nama, engari ko aku huarahi moni mai me aku mea katoa me riro i a ia, ara, aku whenua c takoto taumaha aua me aku whenua kaore he raruraru kei runga. Ko aku whenua watea ka uru ki raro i tera wahi ote Ture c arai ana ite hoko. Ka tino pai rawa atu ahau mehemea ka whakaae te Poari kite tango i aku raruraru katoa, me ki ake au, mo te £3 i te £100—notemea kei te utu ahau i te £8, me te £9, i te £100—ahakoa kite ki mai te Poari mo te £3|-, mo te £4, ranei i te £100, ka whakaae noa atu ahau. Kua utu hoki ahau i te £10, ite timatanga, a kua hoki haere i naianei kite £8, kite £7, kite £6J etahi i naianai. 13. Henare Kaihau: Kaati ra, ki tou mohio ka tika ranei kia tangohia, aka taea ranei te tango atu, o nga mana c tau aua ki nga tangata kua oti nei te whakawhiwhi ki nga Karauna karaati, ki era atu ahua taitara ranei mo o ratou whenua i Niu Tireni ? Wi Pere : Me pewhea koia c taea ai ? E hara ite mea c whakakore atu aua tenei ite mana o te Karauna karaati, engari c whakaatu ana no Wi Pere te Karauna karaati, a c whai mana ana aWi Pere kite tuku atu i tona whenua kite Poari mehemea c hiahia ana ia kite pera. Ko te ahua ote Poari he penei, ko taku tinana tenei, ko te Poari hei ringUringa moku. Ko ahau ano te tinana, engari ka riro ko te Poari hei ringaringa mana c mahi nga mea c mahi nei au i naianei ki oku nei ringaringa ake, kia ahei ai tatou te iwi Maori te whiwhi tahi i nga painga c mea nei nga Pakeha kia tuturu kia ratou anake. He iwi rawakore rawa te Pakeha, mehemea £100 anake te moni kei roto i te pakete o tetahi ■ Pakeha, ka haere atu ia ki nga Maori ka ki atu, " E hoa ma, riihitia mai ki a au a mea whenua," a ka riro atu pea i a ia he 10,000 eka, ara, ka riihitia atu c aua Maori tena whenua ki a ia. Tena pea he £100 anake taua moni ite tuatahi, a ka utua c ia ki tena ana kai-whakahaere, ana roia, me era atu raruraru katoa o taua riihi. Ka paahitia te tiiti, kua riro ia ia tena whenua i runga ite riihi. A tona ra ka haere taua Pakeha kite hoko i taua riihi ki tetahi atu Pakeha, tena ia c whiwhi i te £2,000, ahakoa he £100 anake tana moni ake i pau. 14. Henare Kaihau : He roa rawa tena whakahoki mo taku patai.
18
19
I.—3a
: He ahakoa ra, c tono mai ana hoki koe-kia whakaaturia atu c an nga mahi he a nga Pakeha, a c pera ana ahau. Ko ena mahi katoa ka whakamutua. Na, mehemea kite kore taua Pakeha i riihi nei i tana whenua mo te £100 c hiahia kite hoko i tana riihi, engari ka nama moni a ko tana riihi hei punga, a ka hokohoko i te hipi i te kau i te taonga mo taua whenua, me te utu i nga mahi hanga taiepa me era atu mea, heoi kua timata ia te tupu haere hei tino tangata nui; c kore c maha nga tau kna whiwhi ia ite £2,000 ite £3,000, i puta atu ki aia i runga i taua whenua; katahi ka timata tana mahi kite hoko i nga paanga o nga tangata ote Karauna karaati ki nga moni i puta atu ki aia i runga i to ratou nei whenua ake ano; engari i roto i tena wa kore rawa taua Pakeha nei c pai kite karanga atu i ana Maori kia tomo atu ratou ki roto ki tona whare kai tahi ai me ia i tona teepu, kore rawa, engari ka peia atu nga Maori kite kitini kai ai i tetahi ma ratou. Koia ahau i mea ai, te mea pai rawa me whakatu he Poari hei whakamutu atu i ena mahi kino a ena tv tangata. 15. Henare Kaihau : Kaore pea koe i te marama ki taku patai. E penei atu ana ahau, he maha nga ahua Karauna karaati. Tera ano tetahi taitara he mea whakaputa i raro ite Ture Whakawhiti Whenua. Na ko tena ahua taitara ki taku mohio iho kore rawa c taea te whakakorikori c nga Ture o Niu Tireni, a c mea ana koia koe kia whakakorea katoatia atu ena tv taitara ? Wi Pere : Kaore ; c mea ana au ko nga whenua pera katoa me ata whakaingoa marama ka kape ki waho o nga whakahaere ate Poari. Ka kite koe i roto ite Pire na etahi kupu c kape atu ana i te takiwa c takoto ana i raro i te Ture Ngawha, kia kaua c pa te Poari ki reira, ki nga whenua ranei i hokona etc Maori ite Pakeha. Mehemea he whenua pera tou mau c whakaatu ake. 16. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, mo te tikanga whakamutu ite hoko whenua ate Karauna, c hara ia nei i te mea ko te take o tena whakaaro he mate no nga iwi Maori i runga i nga tikanga hoko whenua c mana nei i naianei ? Wi Pere : Ac; c mate ana i nga mahi hoko a te Karauna, me nga hoko ano hoki a nga Pakeha noa. Nei na nga mate : c 60,000,000 nga eka whenua kua riro ite Pakeha, a c 4,000,000, anake nga eka c toe ana ki nga iwi Maori, a ko tena 4,000,000 c toe ana ki nga Maori kei nga wahi kikino me nga wahi kaore nei c taea atu c te tangata, ara, c ki nei te kupu, kei nga wahi kaore c whitingia c te ra. 17. Henare Kaihau: Ac ra; engari, me mohio ra koe kaore he hoko a te Pakeha noa i naianei ? Wi Pere : He aha te pai o tena korero au ? He hoko ano ra; kei te hoko tonu ratou ; kei te riihi tonu hoki. 18. Henare Kaihau : E tika ana ra tena, engari ko etahi tv whenua anake c taea ana c ratou te pera ? Wi Pere : Heoi ra, kua korero ake nei ahau, mehema tera etahi poraka whenna kua hokona tetahi wahi, me tapahi atu nga wahi kua oti te hoko, a ko te wahi c toe ana me taka ki raro i nga tikanga o te ture Poari, a kite hiahia ranei nga tangata nona te whenua kia whakatutukitia te hoko kite Pakeha, c pai ana, me whakaae, engari me whakaoti tonu i naianei. 19. Henare Kaihau : A, i te mea kua ki mai koe ko te hiahia nui i naianei he arai i te hoko a te Kawanatanga i nga whenua papatupu, kaore ranei koe c mahara ana he mea pai pea me uru he kupu pena ki roto kite Pire c korerotia nei kia hanga ? Wi Pere : Ac, ko tetahi tena o nga tino take ote mate. Me whakauru tena tikanga ki roto kite Pire a me paahi i tenei tau ano. 20. Henare Kaihau : Xi taku mohio i rongo pea au i a koe c ki ana he mea inoi te Pire Poari na nga Maori nana nei i tuku atu tetahi pukapuka mihi kia te Kuini. Kaati, c pohehe ana pea tera korero au ki taku mahara, kaore hoki au c mohio ana ki tera korero. I uru ano koia tetahi kupu ki roto ki taua pukapuka mihi c whakahua ana i tena mea i te Pire Poari ? Wi Pere : Ac ra, he kupu ano ra kei roto i taua pukapuka c rite ana ki tera te aronga, a i penei te kupu whakahoki ate Kuini: "Xi atu ki aWi Pere ratou ko ona hoa rangatira, mo runga mo ta ratou kupu mo nga whenua, ko tena take ma oku Minita ke c ata whiriwhiri"; a puta ana tana kupu whakahau ki ana Minita. Koia tenei te mahi a nga Minita : Kua hanga etc Minita tenei Pire hei whakarite ite kupu whakahau ate Kuini. Xi taku, kei roto tenei take ite pukapuka mihi ki a te Kuini. Xi taku mahara i penei te aronga: Ko nga toenga o nga eka whenua c toe ana ki nga iwi Maori me tuku ki raro i nga ritenga o te Ture Whakanohonoho Whenua kite Tangata. Otira tenei taua pukapuka mihi ki ate Kuini: — " Pitihana ki a te Kuini. —Xi to matou Kuini atawhai ki a Kuini Wikitoria.—He mihi aroha atu tenei na to Iwi Maori o Niu Tireni ki a koe, ki to matou whaea, kai-awhina hoki i raro i nga whakaaetanga o te Tiriti o Waitangi. Tena koe i raro ite atawhai ote Atua, nana nei ou ra i whakaroa c noho ana i runga ite Torona oou tupuna. A c tino tumanako ana matou o tamariki aroha kia whakaroaina atu ano ou ra eto tatou Matua ite Eangi. Ko Niu Tireni hoki to iamaiti tuatahi i whanau mai nei i a koe i muri iho i nga ra o tou whakakuinitanga. Aka inoi atu nei hoki matou ki a koe kia atawhaitia c koe to iwi Maori c noho nei i enei Motu i raro ano i to mana. He mea pai, he mea nui rawa hoki, hei tohu mo te roanga o ou ra c Kuini ana mo matou, kia pai koe kite whakaae i tetahi tikanga rahui tuturu, c toe ai te morehu o o matou whenua hei wai-u mo to iwi Maori ake, ake. Ina hoki ote timatanga mai ano ote Koroni tae mai ki naianei nui atu i te ono tekau miriona eka kua riro atu i te Pakeha me te Karauna, c rima ano miriona eka, nui atu iti iho ranei, c toe ana ki to iwi Maori i naianei. Kei te hiahia o iwi Maori kite mahi oranga ano mo ratou i runga i o ratou morehu whenua, i runga i nga huarahi mahi paamu, a ko nga wahi kaore c taea c matou te mahi, kei te whakaae matou kite reti atu i runga i nga huarahi whakanohonoho tangata. Engari kaore o iwi Maori c hiahia ana kia riro atu aua morehu whenua i o matou ringaringa, he mea kua tino mohio matou, heoi nei ano te wai-u mo matou me o matou uri, ake, ake. Kaati, c rite ai tenei inoi ki a koe a o iwi Maori, me paahi rawa he ture hei tino kati,
I.—3a.
hei tino arai i te Pakeha noaiho me te Karauna kia mutu te hoko i o matou morehu whenua. Kua kore hoki nga raruraru i oho ai nga ngakau o nga iwi c rua i nga ra o mua, kua noho pai i naianei i raro i to maru, penei hoki me nga tini iwi i raro i to mana, c tatua nei i te ao katoa. Heoi, kia ora koe c te Kuini, ma te Atua koe c manaaki, c tiaki, me to whanau, me au Minita, me au kai-whakahaere katoa i raro i to mana.—B Ihowa Tohungia a te Kuini." 21. Henare Kaihau : E pai ana, c penei ana taku titiro kite whakautu a te kaikorero nei: kaore kau he kupu i roto i taua pukapuka mihi ki a te Kuini c whakahua ana i tena Pire Poari; engari na te Kawanatanga tonu i kite tena mahara. 22. Honore Timi Kara : B hara ia te Kuini te Pire Poari; engari na te Kawanatanga ke ? Wi Pere: Ac ra, engari ko te Pire tena i hanga etc Kawanatanga i runga ite whakahau ate Kuini, kia whakaarohia c te Kawanatanga nga kupu o roto i te pukapuka mihi a nga Maori ki a ia. 23. Henare Kaihau : B ki ana koe me hoatu kite Poari te mana me te whakahaere o nga whenua Maori katoa ? Wi Pere : Ac, o nga whenua anake c tukua atu ana ki a ia c nga tangata nona, ko nga whenua kaore c tukua atu ana, kaua ena c riro ma te Poari c whakahaere. 24. Henare Kaihau : Kaati ra, kei te marama ranei koe kite ahua o nga mana c kiia ana i roto i te Pire nei kia hoatu ki taua Poari ? Wi Pere: He tuku ra i nga whenua kite riihi te tino mea tika hei mahi ma ratou ki taku mahara : Tuarua, me hanga etahi wahi hei paamu ma nga Maori, a ko etahi atu o ona tikanga ko te tapatapahi i nga whenua kia ririki nga wawahanga—ara, mehemea 10,000 eka o tetahi whenua me tapahi kia wha pea nga wahanga, kia ahei ai te riihi atu kite Pakeha. 25. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, kaore koia ite penei na to mahara: na te Kawanatanga tonu i hanga nga mate me nga kino katoa c peehi nei i te iwi Maori tae mai ki naianei a kite whakaturia tenei Poari ko te Kawanatanga ano te mana mo runga—e hara ite mea eki ana ahau na tenei Kawanatanga c tv nei, engari na nga Kawanatanga katoa—kua whakapuare tera i tetahi atu huarahi ano c mate ai nga Maori ? Wi Pere : Kaore; ko te take ma te ture c tohutohu atu kite Poari nga mahi hei mahi mana. Xi te kore ratou c haere i runga ita te ture, ko te whareherehere te mutunga mo ratou. Aki te mahi kino te Tiamana ote Poari ka taea te muru ona whenua. Me pewhea koia c taea ai c te Poari te hoko whenua ite mea c araitia ana te hoko ? Heoi kau te mea c taea c ratou ko te tahae pea i nga moni. A heoi, kite pena ratou kua he ratou ite ture a c kore ratou c waiho c te ture. Te mutunga iho ka kai ratou ite kai ote pouritanga me te teteatanga o nga niho. 26. Henare Kaihau : A, c ki ana koe kite mahi kino te Poari ko te whareherehere te mutunga mona—me te Kawanatanga ano pea hoki—ta te mea ko te Kawanatanga te mana kei runga i te Poari. Ka hopukia atu koia c koe te Poari kite whareherehere mo tana mahinga i nga tikanga c whakamanaia ana c koe hei mahi mana? Wi Pere : Ha, me whakautu eau tena patai ? Kaore ra he mana i hoatu c au c whakaae ana kia tahae ratou i nga moni; heoi te mana i hoatu eauko te mana kia mahi ai ratou ite moni maku, kaore au iki me tahae ratou. Xi te pera ratou, heoi taku kupu, ka kai ratou ite kai o te pouritanga. 27. Henare Kaihau: A, kei whea he moni ? Me puta mai i whea te moni hei utu i nga raruraru o te Poari ? Wi Pere : Kei roto ra pea tena i te Pire. 28. Henare Kaihau : Engari ra kei hea he huarahi moni ? Wi Pere : Ka nui nga huarahi. Mehemea ka riihitia etc Poari tetahi wahi o nga whenua o toku hapu, me ki mo te £120 pea ite tau, heoi kua kaha ratou kite nama kia £4,000. Ka ea te itareti o te £4,000 i tena £120, a ka ahei tena £4,000 hei whakapai i te whenua, a ka taea hoki c te Kawanatanga te pooti he moni hei whakaea i nga raruraru o te Poari. 29. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, kua mohio au, ka hoatu ko te whenua hei punga mo te moni c namaia ra i runga i te aronga o te korero ? Wi Pere: Kaore c peratia ; c penei ana taku, ko nga hua c puta ana i runga i taua whenua hei punga. 30. Henare Kaihau : Kaore kau ra he kupu pera i roto i te Pire ? Wi Pere : Kei te rapu tatou i naianei kei te kimi mehemea tera ranei c kitea nga huarahi c taea ai te hanga i te Pire kia pai ai, engari kei roto ano i tenei Pire c takoto nei c whakaatu ana te huarahi c taea ai he moni. B ki ana a wahanga tekiona (2) o tekiona 32 o te " Ture Whakanohonoho kite Tangata Whakahaere hoki i nga Whenua Maori " o tera tau : " Xi te marama te Minita, ma oti te whiriwhiri c raua ko te Minita mo nga Whenua, kite pai o nga mahi c meatia ra kia mahia a kite tika hoki o nga moni c meatia ana kia whakapaua ki aua mahi, ka ahei ia, i runga i tana i whakaaro ai, kite whakahau kia tukuna-a-nama atu kite Poari nga moni c tonoa ra, etahi moni iti iho ranei, a me whakarite aua moni c te Paremete i roto i nga Moni mo nga Mahi Nunui ote Koroni: Engari hui katoa te moni c taea te tuku-a-nama atu i raro i tenei tekiona kite Poari kotahi i roto i te tau kotahi kaua c nuku atu i te rima mano pauna." 31. Henare Kaihau : Kaore kau ra he tikanga o tena tekiona? Wi Pere : He aha te pai ote patai mai i ena tv patai ? Kei te kimi nei hoki tatou i naianei. E ki ana a wahanga tekiona (3) o taua tekiona ra ano: " Ko taua moni i tukuna-a-nama atu ra, hui atu ki tona initareti c rima pauna mo te rau i te tau kotahi, me tau i runga i te mana o tenei Ture hei taunaha ki runga ki nga moni c puta ana i nga whenua i whiwhi i nga painga o nga mahi i oti i taua moni, a ko taua taunaha me whakariterite kia rite ai ano te rahi te iti ranei kite painga i whiwhi ai ia poraka i aua mahi." Xi te eke kite hikipene i te eka nga moni c pau ite whakahaerenga i te riihi o tetahi poraka, a riihitia ana nga whenua mo te kotahi hereni mo te eka, heoi, ea tonu atu i nga moni reti o te hawhe tau kotahi nga moni i whakapaua.
20
I.—3a
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Paeaiee, tb 22 o Hepetema, 1899. Ka haere tonu nga patai ki a Wi Peeb. Te Tiamana : I te hikitanga o te Komiti i nanahi, i kiia mai kei te hiahia a Te Makarini kite patai kia Wi Pere mo runga i ana korero. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ano ra i mutu noa aku nei patai. Te Tiamana: I mahara au kua mutu au patai. Kaati ra, patai, engari kei pau katoa te taima i au patai kia Wi Pere. 1. Henare Kaihau : Ina pea te whakapotonga o to korero i nanahi, c Wi, ko nga whenua Maori katoa o te Tai Eawhiti me tuku ki raro i te whakahaere a te Poari ? Wi Pere : Ac; kite tukua atu kite Poari c nga tangata no ratou te whenua; engari i korero ano ahau ko nga whenua o taua takiwa c takoto raruraru kore ana i naianei ka uru era ki raro i nga tikanga o te Pire Poari c arai nei i te hoko whenua Maori, ko nga whenua i ata tukua atu c nga tangata kite Poari ma te Poari ena c whakahaere ahakoa he raruraru kei runga kaore kau ranei he raruraru i runga i aua whenua ;ka whai mana noa atu nga tangata nona kite tuku atu i aua whenua kite Poari mana c whakahaere, c whakamahi. 2. Henare Kaihau :A, kite kore nga tangata c whakaae kia riro ite Paori mana c whakahaere, c kore te Poari c whai mana kite mahi i aua whenua ? Wi Pere : Koia tena. Kaore te Poari c whai mana kite pa atu ki nga whenua kaore nei i whakaaetia c nga tangata nona kia riro i a ia; engari ka mana nga tangata nona aua whenua kite mahi i aua whenua hei paamu hei aha ranei eka hiahia ratou kite pera. Engari c penei ana taku whakaaro, kite tv te Poari, a kite kore nga tangata nona etahi whenua c whakaae kia riro o ratou whenua ma te Poari c whakahaere, a kite kore c mahia c aua tangata aua whenua, ka taka nga tau c rua c toru ranei me ahei te Poari kite peke atu kite ki atu kia mahia aua whenua. 3. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, c mea ana koe ma runga anake i te hiahia o te tangata ka pa tenei Pire Poari ki tona whenua— ara, ma te tangata c whakaae kariro ite Poari tona whenua, kite kore c whakaae c kore c riro ? Wi Pere : Ac ra, engari ko te tino upoko o te Pire c arai nei i te hoko me paahi hei ture tera, a me pa ki runga ki nga whenua katoa a te wa tonu c paahi ai te Pire, ahakoa whenua raruraru whenua watea ranei; engari ko nga mana whakahaere ote Poari kaua c whakahaerengia kia mohiotia ra ano te hiahia o nga tangata. 4. Henare Kaihau: "Koia ra; c mea ana koe, kite kore nga tangata c pai ma te Poari c whakahaere i o ratou whenua, kaore te Poari c kaha kite whakahaere ite mea c whakahe ana nga' tangata ? Wi Pere : Ac, engari kite kore te tangata c pai kia riro ite Poari tona whenua, ahe pupuri noa iho tana kia tupungia c nga taru kikino, kaore c whakamahia c ia, me whakauru atu tetahi rarangi kite Ture hei whakamana ite Poari kite tango, kite whakahaere ite whenua o tena tv tangata. Bngari mehemea kei te mahia tikatia te whenua c taua tangata, kaati, kaore c tika kia whai mana te Poari kite whakararuraru i a ia. 5. Henare Kaihau : Ka haere anake i runga i te hiahia o te tangata nona te whenua? Wi Pere : Ac, c penei ana taku korero : heoi ano te hiahia nui a nga Maori me mau tonu ki a ratou te mana o o ratou whenua. Waihotia atu ki a ratou te mana, engari me whakamahi c ratou nga whenua, kite hiahia ma ratou ano c mahi c pai ana, kite hiahia ranei. ratou ko te Poari hei ringaringa mo ratou, mana c mahi, c pai ana ano tera; engari kite tohe tonu te tangata kite pupuri i tona whenua, c penei ana taku, kaua taua tangat,, c whai mana kite riihi i taua whenua ki a wai tangata, ta te mea kite whakaaetia kia haere atu nga Pakeha noa ki tera tangata tono atu ai kia riihitia atu ki a ratou taua whenua, heoi ka mau tonu enei ahua c mau nei mai o mua iho, ka mate noa iho taua tangata i nga mahi nukarau a nga roia, me nga me era atu o ngo tini tangata tahae, te mutanga iho ka tinihangatia taua Maori ra, a kotahi ano pea kapa i te eka c hoatu mo tona whenua. 6. Henare Kaihau : Engari, c hara ra tena i te whakautu mo taku patai ? Wi Pere : Ac ra; engari c whakautu roa ana au i nga patai kia ata marama ai aku kai-whaka-rongo he tangata ahau c tino mohio ana ki nga aronga katoa o tenei mea; kaore rawa ahau c pai kia taea c tetahi te ki, c korero noa iho ana a Wi Pere, kaore ia c mohio ana, ta te mea ko o patai c patai ana mo te whakaupokotanga anake o tenei mea. Kaati, ko tenei mea ko te tuna i tuna katoa atu i te upoko tae noa kite hiku, me taku whakautu c whakautu ana mo te tinana katoa timata ite upoko tae noa kite hiku. 7. Henare Kaihau : Kaati ra, ahakoa to kupu c ki nei me whakatarewa nga mahi a te Poari, engari kaore kau noa iho koe c mea ana kia whakatarewatia, inahoki, cki ana koe kite kore te tangata c whakamahi i tona whenua i runga i ta te Poari c mahara ana, me ahei te Poari kite tango i taua whenua mana c mahi. Heoi taku titiro ki tena korero kaore c whakatarewatia te Ture nei, engari ka whai mana tonu ate wa tonu c paahi ai? • Wi Pere : Kaore te Poari c whai mana kite tango i nga whenua ote tangata puku mahi, whakahaere tika i tona whenua, engari ko nga whenua anake o nga tangata mangere, mahi kore, ka taea etc Poari te tango mana c mahi. Ko tenei Poari c whakaturia ana hei whakahaere tika i nga whenua kia puta ai nga painga ki nga tangata nona nga whenua, ta te mea kite takoto mahi kore nga whenua Maori ka utu ano i nga reiti me era atu taumahatanga, a kei whea hoki he moni hei utu i era mea kite kore c whakamahia nga whenua ? Ma te Poari c tiaki te haere a nga tangata kia tika ai. Mehemea he tokomaha nga tamariki a te tangata c tangi ana kia hoatu he kai ma ratou, a ko te Kaute Kaunihera kei te tango i nga reiti o tona whenua, a tera atu ano etahi piihi whenua pakupaku ona i waho atu o nga whenua c utu reiti ana, a kei te takoto mangere te whenua, a kaore ia c pai kite whakapau ite moni hei hoko kai ma ana tamariki, hei reira ma te Poari c tiaki taua tangata, c titiro kei te mahi ranei taua tangata i tona whenua, kaore ranei. Kaore rawa ahau i te ki kia whakararurarungia c te Poari te tangata c mahi tika ana, engari, ki
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te tupono c mate ana nga tamariki i te kai i runga i te mangere i te kuare ranei o taua tangata, hei reira me haere pai atu te Poari ki atu ai ki taua tangata, kaore i te tika to mahi, ko tenei ka tangohia c matou kia matou te whakahaere o to whenua hei ora mo koutou ko o tamariki. 8. Henare Kaihau : Ac ra, engari kaore tena whakautu c tika ana mo taku patai. He aha koa, ka patai ano au ; Me pewhea te whakatu o te Poari, me Pakeha ranei etahi o nga mema me Maori anake ranei ratou katoa? Wi Pere : Mehemea kotahi te Poari nui mo te takiwa, c mea ana ahau kia tokowhitu ona mema, kia tokowha Maori, kia tokotoru Pakeha. Mehemea ranei c meatia ana kia rua nga Poari mo te takiwa o te Tai Eawhiti, kaati, kia toru nga Maori kia rua nga Pakeha mo te mea kotahi o aua Poari c rua. Engari mehemea kotahi anake te Poari mo te Takiwa Pootitangi Mema ote Tai Eawhiti katoa, kia tokowha mema Maori a kia tokotoru mema Pakeha mo taua Poari. Te take o tera korero aku ka utua hoki nga mema o aua Poari, no reira me tupato tatou kei tokomaha rawa he tangata hei utunga ma tatou, engari kua patai mai ano ra koe i tena patai i mua. 9. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, c ki ana koe kia tokowha nga mema Maori kia tokotoru nga Pakeha. Mehemea kite kite Kawanatanga kia tokowha nga Pakeha kia tokotoru nga Maori, ka pewhea ? Wi Pere : Heoi ra, ka tohe tonu au nei ki taku. Xi te kaha tonu te Kawanatanga ki ta ratou, a heoi ano ka paahitia ko ta ratou. 10. Henare Kaihau : E penei aua koe, ka whakahe tonu koe ? Wi Pere : Ac, engari kaore c tino kaha rawa taku whakahe ; ko te tino take o taku whakahe kite Pakeha hei mema, he iwi hiahia nui te Pakeha kite moni, ka mea pea kia £300 kia £500 ranei ma ratou ite tau. E pai ana ahau me Pakeha anake nga mema ote Poari mehemea ka whakaae ratou kite utu iti. Xi te whakamutua te mahi hoko whenua, heoi, kua kore rawa oku nei wehi ki te aha kite aha; kaore au c wehi kite Kawanatanga, ki a wai tangata ranei, ka marama au i reira kaore au c tika kite ki ka murua nga whenua cka whakaturia hei te Pakeha anake he mema mo te Poari, ta te mea c kore c taea, kua whakamutua hoki te hoko whenua. Heoi te take i mea ai au me Maori he mema mo te Poari na te mea he iwi whakaae te Maori kite utu iti rawa. E kore pea c oti tika ite Maori nga mahi i te timatanga atu. E kore ano hoki ratou c mohio. Xi te whakaturia ratou ma te Pakeha rawa c tohutohu ka mohio ai ratou ki nga mea hei mahi ma ratou. 11. Henare Kaihau : I rongo ahau ki a koe c ki ana ka utua nga mema tokowhitu c ki nei koe kia whakaturia. Ma wai ratou c utu ? Wi Pere : Kaati, kaore ano koe i kite noa i te Pire a te Pirimia. 12. Henare Kaihau : E patai ana au ki a koe ? Wi Pere : Ma te Paremete c hoatu te moni hei utu mo ratou. 13. Henare Kaihau: Ma te Kawanatanga? Ma wai koia c whakatu nga mema ote Poari, ma te Kawanatanga ma te Paremete ranei ? Wi Pere : Ma te Kawanatanga nga mema Pakeha tokotoru c whakatu, a mana ano c vi atu ki nga Maori nga ingoa o nga mema Maori c hiahiatia ana c ratou kia noho hei mema mo te Poari. E mea ana au me noho ki fee Kawanatanga anake te mana me te whakahaere kia taea ai he ora mo te iwi Maori. He ahi tahu moni ta te Pakeha, kaore he pera ate Maori,.he ahi tahu riwai kau ta ratou. 14. Henare Kaihau : Kaore au i patai i tena. Wi Pere : Kaore koia koutou, c te Komiti, i rongo i te patai a Henare Kaihau? 15. Henare Kaihau: E patai ana au ki a-koe mo nga tikanga c whakaturia ai nga mema o te Poari. Wi Pere : Ac ra, c vi mai ana koe ma wai c whakatu, ki atu ana au ki a koe no te Kawanatanga te ahi tahu moni, he ahi tahu riwai ke o tatou. 16. Henare Kaihau : Me taku ki ano hoki ki a koe kaore au i patai i tena. Wi Pere : Kaati, ko au c he. 17. Henare Kaihau : A kite whakatungia ena tangata tokowhiti hei mema mo te Poari, ki to mohio he aha te utu tika mo ratou i te tau ? Wi Pere : E kore pea c taea eau te whakautu i tena patai; waiho ma to tatou ariki c tiaki nei i a tatou, ma te Whare me te Kawanatanga, c whakarite te utu mo ratou. 18. Henare Kaihau : Kaore ; ko tatou ano o tatou ariki. Wi Pere : E hara i te mea ko ahau te ariki o ena tangata, mehemea kei au te mana ka ki atu ahau kia rima pauna noa ma te tangata ite tau. Mehemea he pononga ratou naku ka tino pai ahau c ka whakaae mai ratou kia £5 i te tau ma te tangata. 19. Henare Kaihau : Me pewhea koia ratou c ora ai i tena £5 i te tau, me te haerere tonu ki tena wahi, ki tena wahi, kite mahi i nga mahi kua kiia ma ratou ? Wi Pere :Xi te whakaae mai ratou, kite pai ratou, heoi, na ratou atu tena. 20. Henare Kaihau : Xi ka whakaae ano ranei nga mema Pakeha o te Poari kia £5 anake ma ratou i te tau ? Wi Pere: Ko te take na hoki tena iki ai ahau waiho atu ma to tatou ariki ma te Kawanatanga c whakarite te utu. Ma te Whare tena c mahi. 21. Henare Kaihau :A, kite kite Kawanatanga me £200 ite tau te utu mo ia mema ote Poari, ka pehea koe ? Wi Pere : Kaore kau ra aku kupu mo tena. Te Tiamana : Xi taku whakaaro me mutu ena tv patai. Xi taku titiro he moumou noa iho ta ena tv patai i te taima o te Komiti. Te Maka : Ka nui ra nga tikanga kei roto i enei tv patai hei hopu ma tatou, c te Tiamana. Te Tiamana : Ka araitia eau nga patai. He moumou taima noa iho. Henare Kaihau: E rapu atu ana au kia kite au ite tika ota Wi Pere c ki nei, mehemea ka rite cona hiahia, aka whakaturiia taua Poari, heoi ano kua tino taea te ora mo te iwi Maori. Me
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te mea nei kaore ia c kite ana he mate ano kei roto i tena mea. Xi te utua kia £200 ite tau mo nga mema tokowhitu ote Poari, ka £1,4.00 tena. Xi taku mahara c cino tika ana kia patai ahau mo tena. Mehemea kite kore ahau c tukuna kia patai ana mo runga i tenei take, me pewhea koia c taea ai c au te whakaatu i nga mate tena c ara mai i raro i te Poari ? Te Tiamana : Bngari ka hangai tika tonu ano hoki ena korero hei tautoko i ta Henare Kaihau i korero ai i tohe ai mo tona tikawa. Henare, Kaihau : Ac, c pai ana, kia tv ahau kite whakapuaki i aku kupu tautoko i taku korero kia whakaturia he Kaunihera, ka pai noa atu au kite whakautuutu i nga patai katoa c hiahia ana te Komiti kite patai ki ahau mo nga huarahi c utua ai nga mema ote Kaunihera, me era ahua aronga katoa atu; kaati, kite araitia etc Tiamana aku patai, heoi ano, me mutu aku patai. Te Tiamana: Mehemea c hiahiatia ana kia ata whakaarohia etc Komiti tenei Pire, kaore c tika kia pau katoa nga ra c toe ana o tenei tuunga o te Paremete i tenei pitihana kotahi anake. Wi Pere : E ki ana ahau mehemea c meatia ana kia riro ma nga Maori c kimi te moni hei whakaea i ena raruraru katoa, kaati, me fcohutohu atu c au ki nga mema o te Komiti tenei ahua. I nga ra o mua kite riihitia cte Maori tetahi 10,000 eka whenua, £100 pea te moni reti c riro atu i aia mo tena 10,000 eka. Kaati, i naianei kite whakaturia he Poari mana c whakahaere enei tv mea, ara, nga whenua, nga riihi, me era tv mea, ka riro atu i a ratou te £1,500 tae atu kite £2,000 te moni reti mo nga whenua £100 anake c puta ana ki a ratou i naianei—hei painga tena mo nga Maori—a ki taku, mehemea c riro ana ma nga Maori c kimi te moni hei utu i nga raruraru, he aha te he ma tangohia i roto p nga moni kua nui haere te hua mai i runga i nga whenua ? Na te Poari hoki i nui ai te moni reti, a ahakoa kite tae kite £1 ite £100 c tangohia i roto o tena, kite tae ranei kite kotahi kapa ite pauna kotahi, aka tangohia i roto o tena moni, kaore aku whakahe atu. Na te Poari hoki i riro mai ai taua moni. B tino ki ana te Pire ma te Kawanatanga i ia wa iiawa c wehe atu he moni, me utu i roto ote moni topu o te koroni. Kaati i etahi o nga riihi kua oti te mahi i tae kite £2,000 kite £3,000 nga moni i pau i oti ai aua riihi. Kei hea te tohu ote matauranga me te mohio i roto i tena tv ahua whakahaere ? B tino ki ana au, kite whakaturia he Poari, ka mutu atu ena kino katoa, kua kore nga Maori c raru i nga mahi a nga roia, me nga kai-whakamaori, me nga karaka, me era atu Pakeha tahae, c whai atu ana kia whiwhi whenua ratou. He aha te hoatu ai ma tetahi tangata mohio, tetahi ropu tangata ranei, mana c whakahaere, a kite kiia kia kimihia he moni hei utu i nga raruraru, me tango kia kotahi kapa o roto ite pauna kotahi o nga moni c hua pena mai ana, ka utu atu ai i ena raruraru. Kaore au c korero i tena korero me i kore tena patai ki ahau. Kei te marama noa atu te Pire. 22. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, kua tuturu me Pakeha etahi o nga mema o te Poari me Maori etahi; c pera ana to korero ? Wi Pere : Ac. 23. Henare Kaihau : A me reo Pakeha ena Maori katoa ? Wi Pere : E penei ana taku korero, ko nga mema Pakeha mo te Poari me whiriwhiri hei nga apiha ate Kawanatanga hei etahi atu Pakeha totika ranei c mohio ana kite reo Maori. 24. Henare Kaihau: Ac ra ; engari mehemea c riro ana ma te Kawanatanga c whakatu nga mema Pakeha o te Poari, tena pea kaore kau a te Kawanatanga Pakeha reo Maori c watea ana hei whakatu mana, a tena pea hoki kaore te Kawanatanga c pai kia whakaturia nga reo Maori. Xi te tupono ki tera ahua, me pehea? Wi Pere : Xi taku, he pai rawa me reo Maori katoa ratou mehemea ka taea; kite kore c taea, kaati, kia kotahi ano te mea reo Maori, ka pai noa atu. 25. ■ Henare Kaihau : A kite tupono, ka whakaturia he Poari kaore katoa nga mema Maori c mohio kite korero Pakeha, me nga mema Pakeha kaore katoa c mohio kite korero Maori, ka pehea he kai-whakamaori ? Wi Pere : Ma te Kawanatanga ra tena c whakarite. Na te Kawanatanga i whakatu te Poari kia pena te ahua, heoi ma ratou c whakarite tena raruraru. 26. Henare Kaihau : Heoi ra kua tv he kai-whakamaori i tena? Wi Pere : Ma ratou tera c ki. 27. Henare Kaihau: Kaore koia koe c mohio ana ka nui nga mahi Kawanatanga c mahia ana c tenei mea c te roia i naianei; he iwi tera c uru nui ana ki nga mahi Kawanatanga? Wi Pere.: Ac ra, c mahi ana ratou ita ratou nei mahi ake. 28. Henare Kaihau: A kaore koe c mohio ana kei te utua ratou kite moni nui ite tau ? Wi Pere : Ko te Kawanatanga ra kei te utu. 29. Henare Kaihau : Ac ra; engari ko te Koroni kei te hoatu i nga moni. E hara ite mea c utua ana c te Kawanatanga ki nga moni o roto i o ratou pakete ake ? Wi Pere: E tika ana ra tena, engari ko to Kawanatanga te hunga kei a ia te mana kite whakahaere i aua moni—ara, i nga moni a te koroni. 30. Henare Kaihau: Ac ra, engari ka waiho tena hei raruraru ma nga whenua Maori c utu ? Wi Pere : Kaore. 31. Henare Kaihau: A kaati ra, me puta mai i whea he moni hei utu i ena Poari. Me taka iho koia i te rangi ? Wi Pere : Ko nga moni ano ra c wehea ana c te Whare hei utu i ena raruraru. 32. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, ka whakarerea c au tena patai, kaore hoki c whakautua tikatia mai ana. Kaore kau he aronga ke atu mo taku patai mo tenei take. Wi Pere : Kaore taku korero c peka ke atu ki waho o tenei take c takoto nei i o tatou aroaro, ahakoa kite pau i a koe kia toru kia wha ranei nga ra c patai mai ana i tena patai ko taku whakautu ano tera. 33. Henare Kaihau: He patai hou tenei naku ki a koe. Iki koe i mua ake nei he iwi kuare te Maori, he iwi kore mohio, kaore c taea c ratou te whakahaere i o ratou whenua. Kaore koia koe i pera ?
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Wi Pere : Mo taku kupu koia kaore he ahi tahu moni a te Maori ? Kaore c tika kia whakawiria penatia c koe te ritenga o taku korero. 34. Henare Kaihau : I ki ra hoki koe i naia tata ake nei me tuku nga whenua ki raro i te mana ote Poari; kite waihotia atu ki nga Maori te whakahaere kaore kau he mea c pahure i a ratou i to ratou kuare me to ratou kore mohio, heoi kau ta ratou c mohio ana ko te tunu kai ma ratou. E hiahia ana au kia mohio au he tino kupu ranei tena nau ? Wi Pere: Kua korero ake ra ahau kaore c taea c te Maori ena mahi. Ko te take tuatahi, kaore kau a ratou nei moni c taea ai c ratou. 35. Henare Kaihau : A mehemea he moni ta ratou katahi ranei ka taea c ratou ? Wi Pere : Ac. 36. Henare Kaihau : Kaati ra, c hara te Maori ite iwi kuare, heoi kua pai ra tena ki a au. Wi Pere : Mehemea he moni ta ratou ka taea c ratou. 37. Henare Kaihau : Kaati, he iwi mohio ano te Maori, he iwi tupato ki a ia? Wi Pere: I etahi taima ac, i etahi taima kaore. He taima ano ka whakapaua kuaretia c ratou a ratou moni. 38. Henare Kaihau: Kaati, mehemea ka hiahia nga Maori ki a ratou ano te mana, ama ratou ano c whakahaere o ratou whenua, a kaore ratou c pai kia peke mai te Kawanatanga kite whakararuraru engari kite whakaputa moni mai anake ki a ratou, ka whakaae ranei koe kia pena ? Wi Pere: Ka whakaae noa atu au, kite pai te Kawanatanga kite hoatu moni ki a ratou. Mehemea c hiahia ana koe kia pena te tikanga mo te takiwa ki Waikato, ka tautoko ahau i to hiahia pena. E korero ke ana ahau i naianei mo te Tai Rawhiti. Kaore kau aku nei whakahe mehemea ka mea koe me Maori anake nga mema mo te Tai Hauauru—kore rawa nei kia kotahi. 39. Henare Kaihau: Xi taku mohio me mutu pea aku patai. Wi Pere: He kupu i mahue i au i nanahi, ite patai a Honore Timi Kara ki au kia korero au i aku hiahia mo te takiwa o te Tai Rawhiti. Me whakapoto c au taku korero kia ata mohio mai ai te Komiti, tae atu hoki ki a Honore Timi Kara, nana nei te patai ki ahau i te tuatahi. E noho ana au i roto i tenei Whare Paremete kia paahitia tenei Pire. I korerotia c au aku take i nanahi, a i naianei kua tono mai a Honore Timi Kara kia korero ahau i aku korero kia marama ai te Kawanatanga kia taea ai hoki c ratou te hanga mai i tetahi Pire hou, a koia tena ka korero au i naianei. Te take tuatahi, c tino hiahiatia nuitia ana etc Tai Eawhiti; ko te arai rawa ite hoko o nga whenua Maori katoa c takoto raruraru kore ana i naianei. Te take tuarua, kia whakaturia he Poari. Kia tv te Poari, katahi ka riro ma te hiahia o nga tangata no ratou nga whenua, c tuku ranei te whenua ki raro i te mana o te Poari, c pupuri ranei ki a ratou ano te mana —a me whai mana te Poari kite whakatu Komiti Poraka —ko nga poraka katoa he tokomaha te tangata kei roto me tv he Komiti mo ia poraka kotahi—a me tv he Komiti nui mo te Takiwa hei Kooti mo nga whenua. Xi taku kia rima nga takiwa mo roto i te rohe ote Tai Eawhiti. Ko te Poari hei tohutohu ki aua< Komiti, ame mahi ratou i runga i ana whakahaunga c ka kiia c te Poari kia rapua c ratou nga take me nga ahuatanga o tetahi whenua. Xi te kitea c tetahi Komiti kaore c taea eia tetahi take, me ahei te Poari kite whakatu i tetahi atu Komiti—ma nga tangata o ia takiwa Maori c whakatu a ratou tangata c hiahia ana hei mema mo aua Komiti. Ma te Poari c whakatu. Ko aua Komiti Takiwa i whakaturia etc Poari ma te Minita c whakaae, c whakamana. Koi na aku tino take, ko nga whakaupokotanga ena, a ko te whakawhanuitanga haeretanga o nga ringaringa me nga waewae ma koutou c mahi, aka whakauru ki roto kite Pire ma mahia te Pire. Taku hiahia me paahi ko te Pire Poari, a ko aku menemana enei mo taua Pire Poari. Ko koutou eki ana kaore, me hanga hou ano tetahi Pire ; Kaati ra, kua korerotia atu c au kia koutou nga tino take c hiahia ana ahau kia whakaurua ki roto ki tena Pire. Engari heoi ano taku titiro ki tenei mahi he hiahia whakaroa kau kia kore rawa ai c taea te paahi tenei Pire tetahi atu tikanga ranei i tenei tuunga o te Paremete hei whakamutu i te mahi hoko a te Kawanatanga i nga whenua Maori. 40. Honore Timi Kara : Mehemea ra ka whakapotongia c korua ta korua mahi tena c oti tetahi mea i a tatou. Wi Pere : Kaore kau he roanga o taku kite tahuri mai nga tangata nei kite tautoko i taku. Eki ana ahau haria atu tenei Pire kite Whare ite puaretanga ite hawhe-paahi ite rua karaka, horahia atu, paahitia atu, heoi ano kua mutu. Engari kaore koutou c pai kia penatia. E hiahia ana koutou kia haria mai te Motu katoa nei ki roto ki toku takiwa —kite Takiwa Pootitanga o te Tai Rawhiti. He aha te hanga ai kia motuhake he Pire mo nga hiahia o Henare Kaihau anake, ka homai maku tenei mo te Tai Rawhiti ? Ko te rua rawa tenei o nga tau c mahia peneitia ana te Tai Rawhiti. He aha te pai kia hangarekatia au, kia tinihangatia peneitia au, ite mea kei te kite marama noa atu au i tona aronga ? E ki ana etahi, me paahi c tatou tetahi rarangi poto hei whakamutu i te hoko whenua Maori, me te waiho ano kia puare ana he huarahi c murua atu ai i a matou nga whenua o te Tai Rawhiti i runga i te riana ruri, me te mokete, me era atu mea pera. Kua tino tuturu te whakaaro o nga Maori ote Tai Rawhiti, kua mohio ratou kite ahua, kaore kau o ratou nei wehi kei mate ratou i te Poari—ahakoa ka kiia me Pakeha anake nga mema o taua Poari, c whakaae ana te Tai Rawhiti ki tena. Ka nui rawa atu taku riri me taku kino kite Kawanatanga mo te ahua ota ratou mahi ki ahau c tahuri nei ratou kite kukume iau kia uru atu ahau ki roto ki nga tikanga c hiahiatia ana c era atu takiwa. He ingoa ano ra toku. Ko te Tai Rawhiti au. Heoi ano aku korero, me mutu nga patai a te tangata ki au. Kaore he tikangaa patai mai ai ano he tangata ki au. Te Tiamana : Kua whakatakotoria mai c Henare Kaihau ana hiahia mo tona takiwa k aroaro ote Komiti i tenei ata, he mea perehi kite pukapuka. Kua tuaruatia mai cWi Pere tana korero i ona hiahia i tenei ata, a kua rongo ano hoki tatou i nga hiahia o Hone Heke. Kua tuhituhia katoatia ana korero c te kai tuhituhi, a ki taku mahara kaore pea he tino uauatanga o te rapunga a te Komiti nei i te huarahi hei hapai ma ratou, me te whakakotahi i nga whakaaro taupatupatu kua korerotia c aua mema Maori; a tena c mama ki taku mohio mehe-
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mea ka whakaae te Komiti ki. te. tango i nga kprero a aua mema Maori ka whakarite ai i tetahi ra tuturu hei korerorerotanga i aua take, hei whakamatauranga i tetahi huarahi c taea ai te whakangawari te whakakotahi i nga whakaaro c taupatupatu ana, kia kotahi ai te aronga o te ture ka hangaia hei whakarite ite hiahia o nga iwi Maori. Xi taku titiro, kotahi te take c whakaaetia ana c ratou katoa, ara, ko tetahi huarahi whakahaere mo o ratou whenua a nga ra c haere mai nei. Mehemea kua tino korerotia mai c nga mema Maori nga hiahia o nga iwi Maori o o ratou takiwa, kaati kua tino marama ki a tatou kei te hiahia nga Maori me mutu te hoko o nga whenua Maori. Xi taku titiro koi na te tino hiahia nui o nga iwi Maori. A ko tetahi, ki taku, kua kotahi to ratou whakaaro me rapu he huarahi c taea ai te whakahaere pai i o ratou whenua. Heoi te mea kei te ahua taupatupatu o nga korero a tetahi me tetahi o ratou, kei runga anake ite aronga o nga huarahi c taea ai taua hiahia; engari ki taku whakaaro, kaore c kore te taea he tikanga te rapu, mehemea ka whakangawari ratou, tetahi ki tetahi, i etahi wahi o tona hiahia. Xi te pera ka taea etc Komiti, ki taku mahara, te whakariterite nga wahi o o ratou whakaaro c ahua taupatupatu ana te takoto. Kaati, ki taku mohio, mehemea ka whakaae te Komiti kia huihui tatou i runga ite ngakau tapatahi kite rapu i tetahi huarahi kotahi mo runga i nga hiahia kua korerotia c nga mema Maori, tena c taea c te Komiti tetahi whakaotinga c paingia c nga Maori ratou tahi ko nga Pakeha. Kaore kau c tino uaua ki taku mahara te rapunga a te Komiti i nga huarahi c taea ai te whakatutuki nga hiahia o nga Maori mo o ratou whenua. Koi na nga aronga hei mahi ma te Komiti, a c pai ana kia, rangona nga korero a nga mema c hiahia ana kite whakapuaki mai i a ratou mahara hei whakaatu mai i he huarahi tika hei haere ma tatou. Honore Timi Kara: Xi taku mahara c kore pea c taea c tatou te whiriwhiri rawa o tenei rnea i tenei ra, engari kua kite au kua whakaaturia rnai c Henare Kaihau ana mahara i roto i tana pukapuka rarangi kua takoto nei kite aroaro ote Komiti. A i mua o tera huihuinga ano o tatou ka whai taima hei mahinga ma Wi Pere raua ko Hone Heke i etahi rarangi pera ano ma raua, hei whakaatu mai i o raua mahara mo runga i enei take, kia whakahaerengia tahitia ai c tatou ena pukapuka c toru a tera tuunga o te Komiti.
Nga Barangi ka motinitia c Henare Kaihau, M.H.E.
TAKIWA POOTITANGA 0 TE TAI HAUAURU. Me tv he Kaunihera Maori kia ona mema mo te Takiwa Pootitanga o te Tai Hauauru. Me whai mana te Kaunihera— (1.) Xi te whakatu Komiti mo ia hapu, mo ia iwi ranei, i roto i te Takiwa Pootitanga o te Tai Hauauru ; (2.) Xi te whakawa i nga whenua, kite roherohe, kite wawahi, kite whakatau i nga paanga me nga hea o ia tangata, ki te whakatu kai-riiwhi, a kite whakaputa i nga ota mo aua mea. Ko aua ota katoa me tnku atu kite Kooti Whenua Maori, a me panui ki roto kite Kahiti, a kite kore c piiratia i roto i nga marama c rua, me hiiri me haina aua ota c te Tiati o te Kooti. Xi te takoto he piira, heoi ma te Kooti Whenua Maori c whakawa taua tono, a ko ta te Kooti i whakatau ai koia tera te mutunga. Me ahei te Kaunihera kite tuku kereeme ki nga Komiti hapu, iwi ranei, a ma aua Komiti c uiui aua take a c ripoata. Ka ahei te Kaunihera kite whakamana i te ripoata a te Komiti, kite whakatika ranei, kite whakahoki ranei i taua ripoata ki taua Komiti, ki tetahi atu Komiti ranei, kia uiuia tuaniatia taua keehi. Kaua rawa he whenua c hokona c moketetia ranei kite Karauna kite tangata noa iho ranei, engari c taea ai te pera me rnatua whakaae c te Kaunihera, otira kaua te Kaunihera c whakaae ki aua tv tuku kia oti ra ano te rahui he whenua hei oranga mo ia tangata nona'te whenua. Mehemea he kino katoa te whenua o tetahi Maori, a kaore ia c whiwhi oranga i taua whenua i te kino, me ahei noa atu ia kite whakawhiti kite hoko atu ranei i taua whenua, a ma te Kaunihera c hoko he whenua pai mona. Me tere tonu te whakatautau me te wehewehe a te Kaunihera i etahi whenua hei oranga mo ia Maori me tona whanau, me te whakaputa i nga tiwhikete mo nga papakainga. 4—l. 3a. '
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Ko nga toenga o nga whenua o ia Maori, ka taea te tuku i runga i nga tikanga c whai ake nei, ara : — (a.) Mehemea he whenua c puritia ana i runga i te ritenga/eesirnple a kaore i nuku atu i te rua tekau nga tangata nona, ka taea te riihi c aua tangata nona ma whakamanangia c te Kaunihera, a ka taea hoki te mokete te hoko ranei ma whakaaetia c te Kaunihera kia peratia. (b.) Mehemea he maha atu i te rua tekau nga tangata nona te whenua, me whakatu he Komiti, a ma taua Komiti c whakawhiti te whenua kite Kaunihera, a ka tino whai mana taua whakawhitinga kite kore c takoto he whakahe i roto i te marama kotahi. Me whakahaere taua whenua c te Kaunihera i runga ano i nga tikanga i tohutohungia i tuhituhia ki roto kite pukapuka i whakapiria kite taha o te Tiiti whakawhiti. Kaua nga whenua c whakahaerea ana i raro i te mana o tenei Ture c utu i te tiute Maori. PIBE HEI WHAKAHAERE I NGA WHENUA MAORI, ETAHI RARANGI A WI PERE, M.H.R. Whakarapopototanga o tetahi Ture hei tino whakamutu rawa atu i te tuku i nga whenua Maori oNiu Tireni i runga i te hoko. 1. Me tino whakamutu rawa atu te hoko whenua Maori i Niu Tireni, ake tonu atu, hei tohu mo te taenga kite rima tekau ma iwa tau. o te Kuini c kawana ana i Niu Tireni, mo te roanga ano hoki o ona ra c noho ana i runga i te torona o ona Tupuna. 2. Me tv he Poari hei whakahaere i nga whenua Maori katoa c tukua ana kite Poari i ia wa i ia wa c nga tangata no ratou aua whenua, hei whakahaere hoki i nga whenua Maori c takoto taumaha ana i etahi taumahatanga i mna atu i te mananga o tenei Ture. 8. Me whai mana te Poari kite whakahaere i nga whenua c man ana i etahi Ture, ara, i te Ture Ngawha, me era atu Ture pera, me nga whenua Maori o te Takiwa Pootitanga o te Tai Eawhiti c puritia ana i runga i nga tikanga kai-tiaki i runga i te tuku a nga tangata whai take kite Poari. 4. Me whakatu c te Poari ratou ko nga tangata whai whenua ho Komiti Poraka, a ma taua Komiti Poraka c tuku atu te whenua, nga whenua ranei, Ida whakahaerea c te Poari i runga ano i nga tohutohu a te hunga whai take. 5. Me whakatu c te Poari kia rima nga Komiti Takiwa mo te Takiwa Pootitanga o te Tai Eawhiti hei uiui i nga take a hei whakatautau i nga paanga o nga tangata ki ia poraka whenua Maori hui atu ki nga whenua papatupu, a me whai mana aua Komiti kite whakatau i aua mea katoa i runga i ta ratou i kite ai he tika, a me tuku c ratou he ripoata mo aua tv mea kite Poari a ma te Poari c tino whakatau. Ma te Kawana i roto i tona Kaunihera c tino whakatuturu aua whakatautaunga. 6. Me whai mana te Poari kite tuku moni nama ki nga tangata whai whenua hei mahi.i nga whenua c puritia ana c ratou hei mahinga paamu ma ratou, mehemea ia c mohiotia ana c te Poari tera ano c taea c taua tangata, c aua tangata ranei, te whakaea te moni puku me nga initareti. 7. Kaua te Poari c riihi i nga whenua Maori c tukua atu ana ki raro i tona mana whakahaere mo nga tau c nuku atu ana i te wha tekau ma rua tau. 8. Xi te mutu nga tau o te- riihitanga o tetahi whenua me karanga c taua Poari he huihuinga o nga tangata no ratou taua whenua hei whiriwhiri, a hei whakatau :- — (1.) Kia riihitia houtia ranei taua whenua ; (2.) Kia riihitia ranei ko tetahi taha anake o' taua whenua ;
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(3.) Kia tapatapahia ranei kia ririki taua whenua ; (4.) Kia puritia ranei tetahi waahi o taua wlienua, te katoa ranei, hei mahi paamu ma nga tangata no ratou. 9. Xi te mutu nga tau c riihi ana tetahi whenua, etahi whenua ranei, kaua te kai-utu reti c tono kia utua c nga tangata no ratou te whenua nga moni o nga whakapainga i mahia c ia ki runga ki taua whenua. 10. Ko nga whenua c puritia ana c nga Maori, kite kite te Poari kua tipu nga taru kino ki runga, me puta he kupu whakahau ma te Poari kia whakapaia taua whenua, a ma te Poari c ki atu nga tau, a kite kore nga tangata no ratou taua whenua c whakapai i taua whenua i roto i aua tau i whakaritea ra c te Poari, heoi he mea tika kia tangohia c te Poari mana c whakapai hei painga ano mo aua Maori. 11. Me whakatu c te Kawaua he Komihana motuhake i raro i tenei Ture, a hei reo Maori taua Komihana. VA. Me ahei ano te Poari kite whakatu i tetahi atu Komiti hei whakahaere i nga kainga nohoanga o nga iwi Maori:— (1.) Hei whakatikatika i te noho o ratou ake ano ; (2.) Hei akiaki i nga tamariki kia tahuri kite kura; (3.) Hei titiro i te tv o nga whare me te noho o nga tangata. 13. Me tv enei tv Komiti i runga i nga tikanga utu kore. Me wehe kia tekau, nuku atu ranei, nga wehenga mo te Takiwa Pootitanga o te Tai Bawhiti. 14. Ko nga whenua kaore ano i tutuki noa te hoko a te Karauna a te Pakeha noa iho ranei, me riro ma te Poari c wehe atu te wahi mo te hoko c whakatutuki ranei te hoko, c whakawhiti ranei o ratou hea ki tetahi atu wahi me te titiro ano i te tika i te he ranei o aua, hoko. WHAKAATURANGA HUARAHI MO TETAHI TURK MAORI. Hone Hbkb. I bunga i te mohio iho c kore te Paremete c whakaae kia whakaritea nga ture wheuua Maori ki nga ture c whakahaere nei i nga whenua o nga iwi Pakeha o te Kuini, a kua mohiotia kua whakapumautia c tenei Kawanatanga he tikanga, ara, he ture mo nga whenua Maori ma te Kuini anake te hoko i nga whenua Maori, na konei ahau i mea ai ko te huarahi whiriwhiri maku me tango ahau i tetahi o enei huarahi c rua, ara: (1) Me whakarite tonu nga ture mo nga whenua Maori ki nga ture c whakahaere nei i nga whenua Pakeha i tenei koroni; (2) Me tino rahui ame tino kati rawa te hoko a te Karauna me nga tangata o waho i nga takiwa whenua Maori—haunga ia te riihi. I raro i enei ahua, ko te take kei te paingia c ahau o enei c rua c. man ake nei, ko te rahui ko te kati i te hoko a te Karauna me te hunga o waho i nga takiwa whenua Maori katoa (i runga ano ia ite ata whakawatea i etahi ki waho—i runga ano ia ite ahua o nga mate epa ana ki nga tangata no ratou nga whenua). E pai ana ahau kia whakaturia he Poari. Ko taua Poari hei Maori hei Pakeha. Ko nga Pakeha ma te Kawana c whakatu, ko nga Maori ma nga Maori ote takiwa c pooti. Me roherohe nga takiwa. Nga Mana mo te Poari: —(l.) Ko te riihi me te whakahaere i nga whenua katoa c tukua atu ki raro i taua Poari. (2.) Kaua te Poari c mahi c whakahaere i runga i tona hiahia ake, engari kite riihi kite whakahaere te Poari i tetahi whenua me whakahaere te Poari i taua whenua i runga i nga tohutohu a nga tangata no ratou te whenua i runga i tetahi pukapuka tohutohu c tukua atu kite Poari c nga tangata no ratou te whenua. Kaua te Poari c whiwhi ki nga mana Kooti. (1.) Kaua te Poari c whakahaere c mahi c tango ranei i nga mahi o te Kooti Whenua Maori. Mehemea ka whakakorea te Kooti Whenua Maori ko taku riiwhi tenei c tohungia c ahau mo te Kooti: (1.) Me whakatu kia rua nga ropu tangata —kotahi me ki hei "Te Komiti Nui," ko tetahi hei "Te Komiti Takiwa." Ko nga tangata mo taua komiti hei Maori hei Pakeha. Ko te Komiti Nui hei Kooti Piira : Ko nga Komiti Takiwa hei whakahaere i nga uiui whakawa, roherohe, whakatu riiwhi, whakatau paanga, hei hanga hoki i nga ota, haunga ia nga whenua i raro i to upoko " Whenua Papatupu." Whenua Papatupu. —(l.) Ko nga hapu wahanga-hapu, whanau me nga tangata takitahi c ki ana he take o ratou kite whenua papatupu, i muri ote paahitanga o tenei Ture me whakatu c ratou he Komiti i roto ano i a ratou a me ki taua Komiti ko te " Komiti Papatupu," ko nga ingoa o nga tangata o taua Komiti me tuhi ki roto i tetahi pukapuka-rehita, ko taua pukapuka hei taonga ma te Kai-rehita o te takiwa. JSlga Mahi ma te Komiti Papatupu. —(1) He kimi i nga hapu, i nga wahanga-hapu, i nga whanau me nga tangata takitahi c tika ana kite whenua; he tuhi i nga ingoa o nga tangata;
I.—3a
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(2) he whakapumau i te rohe potae, i nga rohe hapu, wahanga-hapu, whanau, tangata takitahi hoki mehemea c pai, a hei whakarite hoki i nga hiahia o nga tangata no ratou te, whenua. Me tuhi katoa nga niahi c meatia i raro i tenei upoko kite pukapuka, me whakaatu nga take, me nga huarahi o nga kereeme katoa kite whenua, ima enei huarahi ranei:— • (1) Tupuna (mana-ringa kaha) ; (2) raupatu (rnana-ringa kaha), me whakaatu (a) te mana i tiakina ai te whenua te takiwa i araia ai nga ope taua o waho, (b) pehea te roa o taua mana i puritia ai, (c) na c hea whanau i pupuri taua mana, (d) ko wai ma nga uri tata. Ko nga tangata c kereeme ana i raro i te take tupuna me whakaatu nga huarahi i runga i te whakatuhono penei me to nga whakahaere kooti nei; (3) Ahika ; (4) Tuku, pakuha; (5) Aroha, me etahi atu tikanga, tawhito hou ranei, i raro i nga ritenga me nga huarahi Maori i etahi atu ritenga ranei. Me tuhi katoa kite pukapuka; ko taua pukapuka na te Kai-rehita ote takiwa. Heoi te wa c ahei ai te ruri mo aua whenua te haere, kia taea ra ano' he otinga te whakatau c tetahi o nga hui a te Komiti Papatupu. Ko nga ture katoa c whakaahei ana ite tangata kite tono ruri whenua papatupu me kaua c pa mai ki nga whenua papatupu i muri iho o te paahitanga o tenei Ture. Ko nga whakatau-whakaotinga katoa c oti i te Komici Papatupu ma te Komiti Takiwa c whakapumau, engari mehemea ka tv tonu Te Kooti Whenua Maori ma Te Kooti Whenua Maori. Komiti Poraka. —lna tupono he maha nga tangata no ratou tetahi poraka, a he whenua kaore c pai ana mo te wawahi i te maha rawa o nga tangata o roto, na reira ka ririki rawa nga wawahanga, a ka iti rawa hoki te wariu o nga hea o nga wawahanga ranei, a pau tonu atu te whenua i te utunga i nga ruritanga :me ahei nga tangata no ratou taua whenua ki te pooti i etahi o ratou hei komiti, a me karanga he ingoa mo taua komiti ko te Komiti Poraka. Nga Mahi ma te Komiti Poraka. —He haina i nga pukapuka, he tuku i nga tono c tau ai nga whenua kite Poari, ahe whakahaere i nga mahi hei whakapai ite whenua me era atu mahi c hiahiatia ana c te nuinga o nga tangata no ratou te whenua kia mahia ki runga ki taua whenua. Engari kaua rawa te Komiti Poraka c tahuri kite whakahaere i tetahi mahi kia whakahaua ra ano ratou c te nuinga o nga tangata no ratou taua whenua i te aroaro o tetahi huihuinga o ratou he mea ata karanga mo taua mahi. Ko aua whakahaerenga mahi katoa me tuhituhi ki roto kite pukapuka-rehita a te Komiti Poraka, a ko taua pukapuka ka kiia he pukapuka na te Kai-rehica o te takiwa. Ture Pane Kuini. —l raro i tenei Ture me rite tonu te tikanga mo nga pane kuini c utua ana c nga Maori kite tikanga mo nga pane kuini c utua aua c nga Pakeha mo nga tiiti tuku whenua Pakeha. Me whiriwhiri etahi tangata tino mohio ki nga ture me nga tikanga Maori a me whakatu ratou hei Poari a me whakarapopoto c ratou ki roto ki tetahi ture nga tikanga Maori katoa hei tauira arataki i te Kooti Whenua Maori, i era atu kooti ranei c whakamanangia ana hei whakawa i nga whenua Maori. Koia enei oku whakaaro, kua tuhia pototia c au, hei whakarite i nga hiahia o oku hoa, o nga mema Maori mo nga Takiwa Pootitanga o te Tai Bawhiti me te Tai Hauauru, a hei utu hoki i te tikanga whakahaere a te Kawanatanga i whakaaturia nei c ratou i roto i ta ratou Pire o tera tau, i tautokona nei c Wi Pere. Ka puritia cauki au ano te tikanga o taku whakahe i nga Pire c inea ana kite tango nui i te mana o te tangata kotahi, i te mana ranei o etahi tangata toko maha, ki o ratou whenua, a c mea ana me tuku atu aua mana ki roto kite ringa o tetahi hunga tera c whakaturia hei Komiti hei Poari ranei. Ko te mana whakahaere anake te mana c tuku atu ki nga Komiti, ki nga Poari ranei, a c whakahaerea ai taua mana me matua tono atu c nga tangata no ratou te whenua. Ko nga tino hiahia o te Whakakotahitanga o te iwi Maori i whakapuakina nei ki Waitangi i te maiama o Maehe, kua taha ake nei, ka puritia c au oku whakaaro mo tena mo tetahi wa.
By Authority: Jons Mackay, Government Printer, Wellington.—lB99.
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/parliamentary/AJHR1899-I.2.4.3.5
Bibliographic details
NATIVE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: THE PROPOSED NATIVE LANDS SETTLEMENT AND ADMINISTRATION BILL (MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN IN CONNECTION WITH PETITIONS RELATING TO). (Mr. R.M. HOUSTON, CHAIRMAN.) [In continuation of I.-3a., 1898.], Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1899 Session I, I-03a
Word Count
61,783NATIVE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: THE PROPOSED NATIVE LANDS SETTLEMENT AND ADMINISTRATION BILL (MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN IN CONNECTION WITH PETITIONS RELATING TO). (Mr. R.M. HOUSTON, CHAIRMAN.) [In continuation of I.-3a., 1898.] Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1899 Session I, I-03a
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