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1882. NEW ZEALAND.
NAVAL TRAINING VESSELS COMMITTEE (REPORT OF THE), TOGETHER WITH THE MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX.
Report brought up sth September, 1882, and ordered to he printed.
ORDEBS OF REFERENCE. Extracts from the Journals of the Souse of Representatives. Wednesday, the 12th Day of Jt/ly, 1882. Ordered, " That a Select Committee be appointed, consisting of ten members, to consider and report upon the best means of giving effect to the expressed wishes of the House in favour of naval training vessels. The Committee to have power to call for persons and papers, and to report in one month. The members of the Committee to consist of Mr. Daniel, Mr. Turnbull, Mr. Allright, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Swanßon, Mr. Hurst, Mr. Joyce, Hon. Mr. Dick, and the mover ; three members to form a quorum." — (Mr. Sheehan.) Feiday, the 28th Day op July, 1882. Ordered, " That the Naval Training Vessels Committee have leave to postpone the bringing up of their report for a week." — (Mr. Sheehan.)
Monday, the 21st Day op Attgust, 1882. Ordered, " That leave be given to the Naval Training Vessels Committee to postpone making their report for one week."— (Mr. Sheehan.)
REPORT.
Your Committee have given careful consideration to the matters submitted to them, and, having examined a number of witnesses, have now the honor to report as follows :— 1. The number of children who, by reason of the neglect or default of their parents, or of some criminal act of their own, are virtually handed over to the custody of the State, is steadily increasing with the increase of population. 2. While some of the witnesses examined by your Committee favour the establishment of training schools on board a moored vessel or vessels, all agree that it will be necessary to have suitable small vessls for cruising about, so that the lads may be taught practical seamanship. 3. It appears that considerable use could be made, by vessels of suitable size, manned by the lads, in the supplying of lighthouses, surveys, transport of stores, &c, within proper limits from the schools. This is specially the case in the Auckland District, where, on account of the large area of the Haurald Gulf, it would be quite safe to intrust to the naval training vessel the work of supplying the whole of the lighthouses in the gulf. 4s. Looking at the large and constantly increasing tonnage owned and registered in the colony, it appears beyond question that many of the lads attending the schools could be provided for as soon as they had acquired a fair, practical knowledge of ordinary seamanship. Many owners now voluntarily accept lads as
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apprentices on board their vessels; and the Committee can see no great difficulty in making the whole of the vessels owned or registered in the colony, above a certain tonnage, carry a certain number of apprentices in proportion to that tonnage. 5. It would appear better, taking everything into consideration, to endeavour to work the cruising vessels in connection with a shore-school. The better health and greater sense of freedom which the boys would enjoy in such case will be clearly evident. 6. A great deal of valuable information as to the class and cost of the vessels fit for the purpose required will be found in the printed evidence and papers. The Committee recommend, That (a) Naval training schools are essentially necessary, and should be established and maintained as now provided by law; (b) A naval training school should again be established at Auckland, and a suitable cruising vessel be employed in connection with the institution; (c) A similar institution should be established at Port Chalmers or Lyttelton; (d) To meet the difficulty of classification a moored vessel might be used for the purposes of a naval training school. Such vessel might be stationed at Wellington. The criminal or refractory children could be committed to such vessel, and be thus placed under strict discipline and cut off from communication with the shore. John Sheehan, Chairman.
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS.
Monday, 17th July, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Daniel, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull. The order of reference having been read, the Committee proceeded to elect a Chairman. On the motion of Mr. Daniel, Resolved, That Mr. Sheehan be Chairman of the Committee. On the motion of Mr. Daniel, Ordered, That the Clerk summon the Inspector-General of Schools (the Rev. W. J. Habens) to be in attendance at the next meeting, and also request the attendance of Captain Fairchild. Resolved, That the Chairman be authorized to send telegrams to various shipbuilders respecting cost of construction of a suitable vessel for training purposes. The Committee then adjourned.
Tuesday, 18th July, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Allwright, Mr. Daniel, Hon. Mr. Dick, Mr. Joyce, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Sheehan (Chairman), Mr. Swanson. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Rev. W. J. Habens was in attendance, in accordance with the request of the Committee, and after numerous questions having been asked him withdrew. Notes have since been sent to Mr. Habens of the questions put to him by the Committee, and he was asked to make a report upon the subject submitted. The question was raised as to whether the scope of the training schools should be confined to those children who were without parents, or whether it should include all those convicted of offences. At this period Mr. Peacock was requested to take the chair, Mr. Sheehan being called away to attend another meeting. On the motion of Mr. Allwright, Resolved, That Mr. Levin be requested to attend the meeting to-morrow. It was also agreed that the Rev. "W". J. Habens and Captain Fairchild be summoned to appear. The Committee then adjourned.
Wednesday, 19th July, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Allwright, Mr. Daniel, Hon. Mr. Dick, Mr. Hurst, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Sheehan (Chairman), Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Eev. W. J. Habens attended and gave evidence, on the conclusion of which he was requested toreattend to-morrow.
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On the motion of Mr. Sheehan, Besolved, That Mr. Coster and the Hon. Mr. McLean be requested to attend to-morrow. Mr. W. H. Levin attended and gave evidence, which was taken down. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Dick, seconded by Mr. Daniel, Besolved, That Captain Williams be sent for to give evidence. The Committee then adjourned.
Thuesdat, 20th July, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Allwright, Mr. Daniel, Mr. Hurst, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Sheehan (Chairman), Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Eev. W. J. Habens attended and handed in a statement and form of indenture. Mr. J. P. Cosier attended and gave evidence, which was taken down. On the motion of Mr. Macandrew, seconded by Mr. Daniel, Besolved, That the statement handed in by the Eev. W. J. Habens be printed, and copies sent to each member of the Committee. The Committee then adjourned.
Friday, 21st July, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Daniel, Mr. Hurst, Mr. Joyce, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Sheehan (Chairman), Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Captain Fairchild attended and gave evidence, which was taken down. On the motion of Mr. Sheehan, Besolved, That a return be made of the number of ships sailing out of the colony, and of the number of men employed in them. The Chairman read a letter from Mr. Lumb, of Dunedin. Captain Pairchild was requested to reattend at earliest opportunity. The Committee then adjourned.
Monday, 24th July, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Sheehan (Chairman). The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. On the motion of Mr. Macandrew, Resolved, That the Committee do adjourn]"until Wednesday next, the 26th July. The Committee then adjourned. Wednesday, 26th July, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present; Mr. Daniel, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull (Chairman). The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. In the absence of the Chairman, Mr. Turnbull took the chair. Captain Williams attended as a witness. The Committee then adjourned.
Thuesdat, 27th July, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Allwright, Mr. Daniel, Hon. Mr. Dick, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Sheehan (Chairman Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Captain Williams attended and gave evidence, which was taken down. The Committee then adjourned.
Thuesday, 10th August, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present; Mr. Daniel, Mr. Joyce, Mr. Sheehan (Chairman), Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull. The order of reference postponing the bringing up of the report was read, and the minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. On the proposal of Mr. Turnbull, seconded by Mr. Joyce, Besolved, That Captain Eose be sent for to give evidence before the Committee. The Committee then adjourned.
Fbiday, 11th August, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Daniel, Hon. Mr. Dick, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull (Chairman). In the absence of the Chairman, Besolved, That Mr. Turnbull do take the chair. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. Captain Eose attended and gave evidence, which was taken down. The Committee then adjourned.
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Feidat, 18th August, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present : Mr. Daniel, Hon. Mr. Dick, Mr. Hurst, Mr. Joyce, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Sheehan (Chairman), Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The following suggestions were made by Mr. Joyce for the consideration of the Committee: "If the colony had one or two handy vessels that could be regularly employed in the lighthouse or other service, drafts of, say, ten to twenty likely boys, showing any inclination for sea-life, could be put on board from any of the shore industrial schools and kept there for a period of, say, three months; at the end of that time the masters would be able, as the result of their observation of the aptness of the boys, to select those to whom it would be worth while to give further training, preparatory to their apprenticeship ; the others returning to their respective schools." The Committee then adjourned.
Monday, 28th August, 1882. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Mr. Daniel, Hon. Mr. Dick, Mr. Hurst, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Sheehan (Chairman), Mr. Swanson, Mr. Turnbull. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. The Chairman brought up the draft report of the Committee, which was discussed clause by clause and various amendments made. The report as amended was then adopted, and ordered to be printed. This concluded the business of the Committee.
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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Wednesday, July 19th, (Mr Sheehan, Chairman.) Mr. Levin, M.H.E., examined. 1. The Chairman] You know, Mr. Levin, what the Committee is meeting for I —Yes. 2. You are a merchant living in Wellington, and have something to do with shipping ?—Yes. 3. Can you tell the Committee whether or not there would be an opening on board vessels sailing from Wellington for lads brought up in training schools ?—lf I understand you to mean for lads untainted with crime, I should say, certainly, yes. 4. Can you give the Committee any idea of the number that might be absorbed in the course of twelve months ?—-I have no leliable information, but I may say I have had a very considerable number of applications from lads. You would obtain much more reliable information on the matter from Captain Williams. He has mentioned to me that he was constantly being applied to. 5. What is the number of lads usually carried by those ships ?—I should think from four to .six. 6. Do you think it would be desirable, in dealing with this question of naval training vessels, to prevent the sending to ships of lads who had been convicted of crime?—l should say, in the first instance, that it would be undesirable to mix lads who were untainted with crime witli those who were. If the proposed scheme is carried out, there should be two training ships, and certain of the lads, after they had served their time in the one, could be drafted into the other, but it would be a bad thing to mix the two in the first instance. 7. What is the best plan ? That of having one large vessel, or two or three smaller ones ?—My impression is, that you have to look upon these training ships in a great degree in the direction of schools. The boys get a theoretical knowledge of seamanship, and a practical knowledge of certain matters which should fit them for the position of ordinary seamen. 8. Looking at our own colony, do you think it would be desirable that these lads should bo taught actual seamanship I —My impression is, that actual seamanship would, to a great extent, be learned on board the vessel in harbour. 9. If there were three vessels employed for various purposes, coidd they not be largely used for lighthouses?—No, it would be disadvantageous to use sailing vessels for such a purpose. 10. You speak of a large vessel being employed for the purpose. Now, in the case of Auckland where the school buildings were, they have trained the children on board a vessel so as to have actual experience of the working of a vessel ?—I am only giving my own opinion. My impression is, that continual living on board a ship is one of the most essential points of training, and the best that a boy could get. 11. Have you any idea what wages the lads get ?—I cannot tell what wages they get as lads. When they become men, they might get the wages of ordinary seamen. 12. Mr. Hurst.~\ What are the wages of ordinary seamen?—l think they are £i per month. 13. Are you acquainted with the details of the working of these vessels, and whether they are a success or otherwise ?—They are a success ; ship-owners are only too glad t j get these boys. 14. Mr. Dick. I You speak of two classes of boys. Could you draw the line in any way. Would you include neglected children, or would you separate them I —Yes ; most certainly. 15. Would you consider, for instance, such children as attended the Industrial School, and who had committed a little theft, criminals, and would captains of vessels refuse them I —l do not think a captain would refuse any of that character. 16. Then what class of boys would you have for the second training ship ?—My impression is, that there are very many parents of children who would be glad to pay the cost of their children on board the training ship, and I fancy there are very many parents who would be glad enough to have their sons educated, and to pay for that purpose. 17. Mr. Dick] Have you any idea of the cost of such a vessel ? How many would you put on board a hulk I —lt depends on the size of the hulk, 18. The Ghaivinaii.] Do you think it would be an advisable thing to provide by law that all vessel* sailing out of any port in the colony, and over a certain tonnage, should be obliged to carry a certain number of apprentices ?— I should like more time to answer that question. 19. Do you think it would be an inducement to lads if we were to make special provision for giving them the franchise and the freedom of the city, and the right to vote for members of Parliament '! —I shall think over both questions.
Mt. Levw.
ISth July, 1882.
Thursday, 20th July, 1882. (Mr. J. Sheeiian, Chairman.) Mr. J. L. Coster examined. 20. The Chairman, having read the order of reference to the witness, said: —One of the objects of our inquiry is to ascertain whether we should have separate vessels in different harbours moving about under sail, or one large vessel moored in a central harbour and not moving about. We also want to know how far you think the shipping of the colony will be able to absorb these lads coming from the Naval Training Schools, and whether you think it will be desirable to make it compulsory on vessels over a certain tonnage leaving the colony to take a certain number of apprentices. You are, I believe, Mr. Coster, a Director of the New Zealand Shipping Company?—! am Chairman and Managing Director. 21. How many vessels are there in connection with the Company ?—There are seventeen vessels owned by ourselves. They average over one thousand tons each. 22. Mr. Macandrew.j Has the Company any vessels under charter? —We charter, upon an average, I. 9.—1.
Mr. J. L. Cotter.
20th July, 1882.
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about thirty ships a year besides our own. I may also state that we are increasing our fleet. The amount of our capital has been increased, and in what we do we shall be guided by circumstances, and the requirements of the country. We propose to have more sailing vessels, and to supplement the fleet by suitable steamers. 23. The Chairman.'] It is your intention, then, to reduce the number of chartered vessels 1 —Yes; as our own fleet increases. 24. What number of vessels are you likely to have of your own in twelve months ?—I do not think there will be a large increase by that time. Vessels take a long time to build. 25. You now have seventeen vessels of your own, and charter from twenty to thirty vessels a year ?—Yes. 2G. Are wo to understand that the policy of the Company is to do away with chartering?— Yes; to some extent. 27. Do you carry lads as apprentices I —Yes; it has been part of the policy of the Company from the commencement to take on board our vessels respectable lads of good character, to train them as apprentices, teaching them navigation, with a view to their becoming officers, and creating what I may call a mercantile officer marine of our own. So far, this plan has been attended with a great measure of success, and, although it is only nine years since the Company was projected, we have several second officers who joined us as boys. Ido not think we have a chief officer yet, but I have no doubt this will speedily come. We __aye at present about sixty lads on our ships, besides second and third officers who joined us as boys. We have some very smart young officers who have been boys in various parts of the colony. 28. Mr. Peacock.] There is one important poinc to which I should like to draw attention. Mr. Coster has stated that the Company has encouraged, as far as possible, the training of boys to fill the position of officers of the vessels. I think we are more interested in the training of boys to make them ordinary seamen. How many boys have been taken on board the Company's vessels with this view 1 We want to turn out good ordinary able-bodied seamen. 29. Mr. W. J. Hurst.] I should like to supplement the remarks just made. Mi-. Coster tells us that the Company take boys, as midshipmen of the better class, for the purpose of training them and making them officers. My object is to provide for young people whose parents have gone away and left them in a destitute condition. I want to make these lads seamen. 30. The Chair-man.] It will be much better to let the witness finish his own story. You say, Mr Coster, that your vessels carry about sixty of these lads. This, of course, refers to vessels owned by the Company I —Yes. 31. From the class to which these lads belong, it is generally expected that they will take a higher position than that of ordinary able seamen I—Eventually. The boys are taken quite irrespective of the social position of their parents. If they are good boys, and likely to take to the profession, we invariably endeavor to provide for them. We have gentlemen's sons, and sons of people in a good position, and we have also officers who are the sons of seafaring men, turning out splendidly. It has not been a question of social position, so long as the boys are respectable. The only thing the Company is particular about is the respectability of the boys. Some of them will make officers and some will not; that rests with the lads themselves. 32. lam sure the Committee are pleased to hear what has been done. You are aware that Naval Training Schools are mainly composed of lads of two classes, one being the criminal class, and the other the unfortunate class of lads whose parents have left them, and perhaps gone to other colonies. Now, do you not think that provision might be made for utilising one section of these boys on board vessels sailing out of the colony I —l hardly think so until they are fit to ship as A.B.s or ordinary seamen. There are also other reasons. 33. I am assuming that the lads have left the Naval Training School, where they have been taught the use of the ropes. Would there not be an opening on vessels belonging to a large Company for a number of these lads I —Distinctly so, but the chief trouble arises in this way. The crews of the vessels are shipped in London for the round voyage. In all cases, however, or nearly all, several hands have to be shipped in the colony. 34. Would you think it an unfair interference with the Company if the law made it compulsory for vessels over a certain tonnage leaving the colony to carry a certain number of colonial apprentices, trained, and of good character ? 35. Mr. W. J. Hurst] Do you mean apprentices 2 36. The Chairman.] Yes ; I am speaking now of the class to whom I have been directing my questions. lam not talking of those whom the Company have taken of their own accord, but of a class of people of a non-criminal kind who go to our Training Schools. I ask if Mr. Coster will think it unfair if we make it compulsory for vessels leaving this colony to carry a certain number of colonial apprentices, according to their tonnage I —l think it would be a hardship, and for these reasons, among others. There is a grave responsibility attached to these apprentices—a responsibility which, speaking for myself personally, would be felt very strongly by our own Company. Not only these but there is attached to the proposition a large measure of expense. In our own case we have a special home provided for our own boys in London. This home is maintained at a very considerable cost to the Company, and takes a great deal of careful attention. If all owners were bound to take these boys, including, I persume, owners whose vessels might be trading to all parts of the world, I think such a compulsory provision as that referred to would have a very detrimental effect. 37. Will you explain why that which your Company voluntarily do, might not be made compulsory upon other people, who do not do it I —The chief reason is the grave responsibility and expense which, in the case of our Company have been voluntarily undertaken. Although we do not profess to be philanthropic, our Company does not look absolutely to the utmost farthing which it can make out of its trade, l-ut regards itself as a valuable national institution, having other ends in view than the mere making of money.
Mr. J. L. Coster.
20th July, 1882,
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38. I understand this, and am pleased to hear it. I gather from you that the class of people you take are the people you wish to make officers and trusted servants oi. I refer to a much larger class. Take the case of a lad whoss parents have left the colony and left him behind, or one whose parents have perhaps taken to drink and neglected him. The police take him in charge, and he is sent to the Training School, to be kept there until he is a man ?—When your boys have arrived at that nge they will be able to go before the mast as sailors. 39. Under the Act we cannot get these boys sent out from the training ships, except as apprentices ?—When the boys are eighteen, they are too old to take as apprentices. 40. If you get lads of that age for two or three years at a lower rate than that at which you could get others, it would be in your favour ?—We never do. 41. Suppose the law made it compulsory that every vessel over a certain tonnage leaving thfj uolony should carry a certain number of apprentices from the naval schools ?—I think there would be a difficulty. If we were carrying the other class of lads such as those we are carrying now, I think it would be undesirable to have as apprentices the boys you refer to. 42. lam not talking of aristocratic apprentices, but of the oi polloi ] —I know that. Ido not look upon the question as one of aristrocatic apprentices, but I think it would be a difficult matter to carry apprentices of two classes in the same ship. We cannot carry more than four in any of our ships, and we have generally moie applications on our books than we can take. 43. You refer to boys of the class you are now taking for the purpose of making them officers of vessels afterwards ?—Yes ; all these lads learn the work of sailors. The officers of the ships keep a sharp look out on them, and at a certain hour of the day the master of the vessel teaches them navigation. They also go to school during certain hours. They have to go up the rigging, help to furl the sails, keep the ship clean and other things. 44. Snppose lads of eighteen possessing skill in navigation and practical experience in working on board a vessel were ready to be discharged from a school and apprenticed. Woulc| it not be a saving to your Company to have four or five of this class on board ?—I think if such a thing were required, the Company might be glad to ship several of these young men as sailors. If the Company is to be asked to take the responsibility of these young men when absent from the colony, it becomes a different question. You ship these young men and let their articles terminate in New Zealand instead of London. Of course there is no difficulty in this, but the responsibility of these young men while the vessel is in London is a different thing. 45. I understand that a lad would betaken on board a vessel under the Act, and that so long as he received fair treatment, the rest would be his look-out. I mean that you cm have no responsibility if he likes to come to grief when he reaches London. I suppose that to be the case if the law to which I have referred was passed. A matter has been before the Committee upon which I should like to have your opinion, Mr Coster. It is a moot point whether we should have one largo training vessel moored in some port of the colony, and teaoh the boys seamanship there, or have one or two smaller vessels, say of 100 tons, of the schooner and brigantine class, in which the boys could have actual experience of navigation by making short trips and carrying Government stores?—My opinion is, distinctly, that you should hare both. You should have a training vessel moored somewhere down a central harbour, and small vessels to cruise about in connection with this ship. I was on board a training ship on the Eiver Clyde the other day in company with Mr Galbraith, the Managing Director of the Albion Shipping Company. He takes a great interest in this Institution and is one of the Governors. This vessel has a schooner, in which the boys go sailing about. You should have both, decidedly. 46. You carry on an average four apprentices?— Yes. 47. Mr Peacock.} Would it be regarded as a hardship if vessels were asked to carry more than four of these lads with the view of training them as able-bodied seamen ?—We cannot accommodate more than four ordinary apprentices on each of our vessels. We should also have to make special arrangements for housing them. 48. In what way do able-bodied seamen generally get their training?— That is a rather difficult question to answer. I should say all about. The crew of these vessels are of a most motley description. The masters frequently have to pick up a crew where they can. The shipping of a crew is left entirely to the masters. 49. What age does a man require to be before he can ship I —l think eighteen or twenty, but I really cannot say. 50. Do you consider the training given to boys on board naval training vessels will be of great advantage to them, and that this advantage ■will be proportionate to the cost of the undertaking?— That would be very difficult to arrive at. I think when the boys have had their training they should be fit to become sailors on board vessels. 51. When they have arrived at a proper age ?—I should say so. This will rest a great deal with the arrangements of the training ship. If you have a ship and schooner you ought to be able to fit boys to go before the mast. 52. If boys were kept in such naval training vessels and taught the actual duties of seamen up to such age as they could ship, do you think there would be a demand for their services?—l should thir.k so. T think you would find a profession for a lot of your surplus population in the shape of these boys. 53. Mr Macandrew.} What are the wages paid to able-bodied seamen now?— Home £5 or £6 per month, out about £3. Say from £3 to £6. 54. Is it not possible that if lads are bred to the sea in the colony, and arrive at a proper age, you will be able to get them at the same price ?—We should be glad to get a better class of seamen who would stick to their ships all round. 55. Would it not be to the interests of the Company to draw its supply of raw material from the cheapest market instead of the dearest?—lSTo doubt, if a crew could be shipped in London for the round voyage at £3 per month. Men will not ship from the colony for less than £5 to £6. SG. Am I to understand that the young men you carry now are in the cabin ?—No.
Mr. J. L. Cotter
20th July, 1882,
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57. Are they before the mast ?—They do before the mast work, but they are berthed in a place by themselves. They are under the special supervision of the officers, and are never allowed in the forecastle. 58. Do you remember the number of boys on the vessel in the Clyde ?—There were about 300. Small boys up to good-sized. 59. What was the nature of the instruction !—There was school and the boys were taughfc navigation. There was also boat exercise. As I have already stated, the boys were taught practical seamanship, and cruise about in a schooner attached to the training-ship. 60. What is the number of seamen in the employ of your company altogether ?—I should think there would be about 000, but I speak roughly. Gl. Mr. W. J. Hurst.] You have spoken about apprentices, and you say that your books are full of applications of that description?—We have many applications. We call the lads apprentices. 62. Do you ever receive premiums with these lads ?-—No. 63. Some firms ask for premiums I know. You take these lads to teach them the business of seafaring ?—Yes ; we commenced by charging a premium, and it was a fair thing to do, no doubt, on account of the heavy expense the Company was put to. Among the applicants, however, were so many parents who could not afford to pay a premium, that we decided to charge none at all rather than make fish of one and fowl of another. 64. We propose to teach the boys navigation and the art of seafaring so far as it can be done. Suppose we had a hundred of these boys. You say the difficulty lies in your having to ship your crews in England. Do you not frequently lose hands here that you would be thankful to replace 1-We often have to ship five or six hands here. 65. Will it not be an advantage to you to have a trained class here I —Distinctly so. Under those circumstances our masters would prefer to take these hands rather than be compelled to pick up what they were able to find. If it came to that we might direct them to ship these young men. 66. Would you possibly conceive it to be your interest to ship hands here instead of at home if you could get a good supply I—We1 —We might, but the whole difficulty arises here, not only with regard to the responsibility, but owing to the long time vessels lie at London. 67. I do not want to saddle you with any responsibility at Home, but will it not be desirable to have a class of lads of this kind living on board the vessels ?—No; we clear all hands out of our vessels at London. 68. You would have them paid off here if this class were employed ?—Ships sometimes have to lay a long time at London. It would not pay us to keep a crew on wages for three or four months. 69. How many vessels does the Company own ?—Seventeen. 70. What is the average number of the crew? —About thirty or forty on the average, that is exclusive of the apprentices to whom I have already referred, of course lam speaking roughly. A good many of these vessels are passenger ships under the Act, and have to cany a stronger crew. 71. Mr. Daniel.] Do you not consider a young man of eighteen competent to go as an able seaman ?—I do not as an A.8., but as an 0.5., yes. 72. Do you think a young man trained on one of these vessels, and who has never been to sea, is competent to ship as an ordinary seaman?—l do not, think such a training would be so satisfactory or perfect as if the man had been to sea cruising about and helping to work a vessel. Hauling ropes on board a hulk in still water, is very different from working a vessel at sea. 73. Will it not be an advantage to the captain of a ship to have lads trained up under his own care, even if he has to look after them in London ?—I have already explained that we carry four apprentices in each of our vessels, and have a special home for them when they arrive at London. 74. As regards cadets.. Do not those who have shares in the Company send their sons on board as apprentices without payment ?—We have payment from no one. 75. I was given to understand that this was not the case?— That is not a fact, as I think Mr. Macandrew can tell you. 76. Mr. Macandrew.] Mr. Coster was good enough to ship a lad on my recommendation without any premium. Directly there was an opening for Captain Stevens' son, one was given to him. 77. Mr. Daniel.] I am told that a lad could not go on board one of the Company's vessels unless he paid a premium ?—Nothing of the kind. As I have already explained, that was done at first, but as there were so many parents who were unable to pay the premium, it was decided to do away with it. 78. Have you considered that if you take these young men with homes in New Zealand you need not be so frightened of their running away as if you had taken them from other parts of the world. In London you will have to take all kinds. Some will ship there merely to get to the colony. You will sometimes scarcely find a man in one of your ships who is not a foreigner?—l think there will be large employment for the youths you refer to on the coast of New Zealand, where there is a very large mercantile marine growing up. 79. Mr. Macandrew.] I think we have all put a great many irrelevant questions to the witness. I think, however, that we can gather this much. There is an opening for the extensive employment of seamen if we can provide them '--There is a very large field, as there are so many colonial vessels. 80. Air. Swanson.] Are these boys of eighteen supposed to be competent. Suppose the master went over the side, what experience would one of thtse lads have?—l think I have already expressed an opinion that I do not think training of a simple kind on board a ship moored in a harbor would properly qualify a lad. for the sea. lam of opinion that he should cruise about as well. 81. Suppose a vessel were going ashore. Would one of these young men know what to do ?—ln such ■cases we look to the officers to direct the men. 82. They would be useful men, but would have to be told ?—Yes. 83. If a vessel were losing its rudder at sea, what would one of these lads brought up on a training ship know about it except what was told him ?—No doubt a real seaman's training is a great gain at sea. 84. Suppose the case of the topsail and mainsail being blown out of the bolt ropes, would one of
Mr. J. L. Coster
20th July, 1882.
I.—1)
5
•these young men be in a position to bend new ones in the middle of a tempest?— Perhaps not. 85. Nothing but practical experience will do to make these lads qualified sailors ; but, at tlie same time, do you not think that they will be most useful ?—You can go far to make them qualified sailors if you have a vessel sailing about. 86. The Chairman.] "You have uiede some reference to the class of people taken on board vessels at Home. Do you not think, taking the case of your own Company, which is oolonially owned, it would mot be better to have a crew composed of men born and bred in the colony ?—I am strongly in favor of utilising everything we can from the colony, 87. Provided the conditions were reasonable, and a law were passed making it compulsory to carry a certain number of lads on every vessel leaving the colony, do you think your Company would have much cause to complain?—l do not think we should complain, but we would rather do this voluntarily than be coerced.
jtfr. jr. x. e«4fc,'
20th July, 1892.
Friday, 2 Ist July, 1883. (Mr. J. Sheehan", Chairman.) Captain J. F. Faiechild, examined. 88. The Cfiairman.~\ You understand the nature of the inquiry the Committee is making. 1 will simply ask you two or three general questions and leave you to make any further statement. In the first place, have you had any experience of lads who have been in the Naval Training School at Auckland % —I have had about ten of them. 89. What was the result, so far as these lads were concerned ?—Not very good. I think a good deal of this was caused by their being lads of bad character before they ■went to the school. 90. One question before us is this. Is it desirable to have one stationary hulk moored in a harbour, or to have two or three smaller vessels at different ports in the colony—live vessels, as they have been called—in which the boys could sail about ?—-The boys will be a great deal more use if they go about in these small vessels a little, while they belong to the Training School. 91. You know the position of the Kohimarama School? —Yes 92. Will it not be well to have a stationary vessel there '?—The boys will learn a great deal more on board a vessel sailing about than on board one at anchor. If they are trained on a stationary vessel, they do not learn to steer, and when they go to sea, they are sure to be sick. The boys I had from the Kohimarama training ship were no better than boys I might have picked up in any town. They had no knowledge of steering, and they were sick directly they went to sea. Ido not think the Kohimarama ship was much use to the boys, as far as L am aware the Southern Cross never went to sea, and therefore it could not be of much use to the boy.s who were on board. 93. If it were decided to go in for two or throe live vessels, what would you suggest in respect to tonnage ?—I should say something about GO, 80, or 100 tons. I think the one you had before was rather small. It was only 34 tons, and there is not room for many boys on a boat of that size. Ido not think she was ever Used. 94. What do you think about rig? —A topsail schooer or brigantine. 95. What do you think would be the cost of a vessel of the kind you describe. What could a schooner or brigantine of one hundred tons be got for?—Abouc £2,000. Iliad one of seventy-seven tons built, and it cost me £1,600. I think a hundred-ton ves-.el would cost about .£2,000. It was four years ago when I had my vessel built, but that will be something to go by. 9G. There is another proposal before the Committee of this kind. As to whether or not it will be desirable to make it compulsory on vessels sailing out of the colony to carry a certain number of apprentices, according to the size of the vessels. Do you think this will be desirable ?—I think it would be a good thing, but no one would agree to it if they could help it. Boys are a great nuisance, especially upon coasters. Of course you cannot get sailors unless you have apprentices, but shipowners would not like what you suggest. These boys are an awful nuisance on board ship. .1 do not think it would be well to make it compulsory on shipowners to carry too many of these lads. 97. What do you think would be a reasonable proposal?— Well, vessels of one hundred tons might carry one. Vessels like the RotOmahaua, Te Anau, and Manapouri might carry about six, I should think. 98. What length of service do you think would be required, providing a lad goes through the naval training in the way I have mentioned to you witli live vessels?—-I should think about three years. The lad ought to be of some use tl en, and able to earn wages and do for himself. 99. Do you think he should be allowed wages during the three years' time, beyond his keep and clothing ?—I think he should be allowed something. Some masters might not clothe them properly, or the boys might think so. I have found it best to allow the boys wages, and then see that they lay the money out upon themselves. That is far better than simply clothing them. They take better care of their clothes, and are much better satisfied. You should not let the owners of the vessels clothe them. Some would clothe them well, and others would clothe them badly, and the boys would think that they were never well clothed. 100. You think it would be better to encourage habits of self-reliance in the boys by giving them a small wage?—l have found this best with the boys I have had. I give them their wages, and then go to the clothing shop with them, or send the steward with them. 101. You think the proposal to compel vessels trading out of the colony to carry a certain number of boys would be beneficial?—As I said before, no owner will agree to it, if he can help it. 102. I suppose every man who is a seaman has had to start by doing this work at some time in his life?—lf he wants to make a seaman, that is the way to learn, but shipowners will go against the proposal you suggest. If you pass a law to make them carry what they consider too many of these lads, they will register their vessels out of the colony, and get over it in that manner. If you only try to make it compulsory for them to carry a small number, they may not fight against it. 103. Do you think it would be a desirable thing to have growing up in the colony a sufficient number of yonng men to man the vessels sailing out of our ports?—l think it would be a great thing. I. 9.-2.
Captain Fairehild. 2lßt July, 188*.
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Nearly all the seamen we have now come from other countries. Nearly all our vessels are manned by foreigners —Swedes or Norwegians. They are the best men we can get at the present time, for there are v«ry few sailors of our own. 104:. I am to understand that you are in favor of instruction being given, as far as possible, on board of live vessels ?—The boys will learn a great deal more. When they go to sea they will not be sick, and they will lcain to steer, and many things they conld not learn on board a ship moored in the harbor. 105. Suppose it were possible at Port Chalmers, Lyttelton, Wellington, and Auckland, to have the school buildings on shore, and allow a certain number of the boys week by week to take charge of the small sailing vessels, and learn navigation and practical seamanship in this way I —l think that would be well. 106. I will put it in this way. Do not you think it would bo better to have the boys in a school building on shore in a suitable position than shut up in a hulk ?—I think so. The lads would be far better in a house on shore. You would want a vessel as big as the " Wolverine "if you desired to have the school on board. 107. You do not think it desirable to keep many hundred children locked up in a ship month after month ?—lt would tend to make them hate the ship. Too much of a ship in harbour would tend to make them hate it altogether. 108. Mr. Daniel.~\ What is your opinion with regard to training ships, such as those at Portsmouth, Chatham, Woolwich, and other places in the Old Country ?—The training ships at the places you refer to are very large. They have three or four decks, where there is any quantity of room. I think, however, as I said before, that a school on shore would be better. 109. Suppose we had a man-of-war—say, a suitable brig—stationed in the harbour here. Do you not think it would be well if the Naval Volunteers were to go on board on Saturdays and sail the vessel down the harbor and back ?—lt is quite possible that this would do for one of the harbours, but it would be better to have.small vessels for the others. I think that might work well enough. Ido not think there are any man of-war brigs left now. 110. It might be possible to get a nice corvette?— That might do for one of your ports, but you must have live vessels for other purposes. 111. We should not want the vessels to which I rsfer to be stationary. They could go to Lyttelton or Auckland in the same way as vessels of the same kind at Home go upon a two-months' cruise?—l am afraid you would find that rather expensive. 112. How many officers do you think would be required to work a vesesl of the kind?—lt would take a lot of work to keep a corvette or brig in decent order. 1 think it would be too much for us. 113. Would not a captain and two officers with a boatswain and the boys be able to keep such a vessel in order ?—No doubt they could. They could not, however, go to. sea without a few able men. A vessel of the class to which you refer is not like a schooner. 114. Do you not think the Naval Volunteers would be able to assist a great deal?— You would not get them to go to Lyttelton or Auckland with the chance of being away for perhaps six weeks. Such a vessel as you speak of might possibly do in one of the harbors of New Zealand. I should go in for small schooners and teach the boys what they would have to earn their living with by-and-bye. It is impossible to teach lads seamanship in a harbour. Bending sails and sending yards up and down has gone out of date. 115. How would you manage if a ship got dismasted in a gale of wind?— Such a thing can scarcely happen now with the masts and rigging we have. We seldom or never hear of such a thing now as a vessel getting dismasted. While we used to hear of a case of the kind every week, we do not hear of one a year now. The masts are part of the ship now, they are built no solid, of iron. I do not think our children will ever hear much of dismasted ships. It is not like the olden days where everything was of wood and rope. I scarcely think it is necessary to teach our young sailors how to rig a jury-mast. 116. Are you not aware that a great many of our sailors are brought up and trained on steam vessels, and that when they go on board sailing vessels they are nearly useless ?—No doubt they would be. On a steamer there is not ranch to do except to steer and keep the vessel clean. That is mostly what the men do. We have more steamer sailors now than we have sailing vessel sailors, and in my opinion we shall find less of the last-mentioned class every year. 117. Do you not think it will be to the interest of the ports of New Zealand to have numbers of these boys trained so as to be able to go on board ships as seamen ?—I think it will, and I think you will train them best in the schooners spoken of. They will learn seamanship in that way much better than they will on board a brig stationed in a harbour. You must take them to sea at any rate. They must learn to steer and not to be sea-sick. I found that the Kohiniarama boys got sick directly I went to sea with them, just the same as if I had picked them up in the street. 118. Mr R. TwribulLl Your experience so far as seamen are concerned is that those of the English race are scarce ?—You scarcely find any English sailors here now. 119. To what do you ascribe this ?—Compulsory apprenticeship has gone out of date at Home. 120. Then we are not training up any seamen of our own, but employ those of other nations?— That appears to be the case. 121. Steamers are of course taking the places of sailing vessels even along the coast ?—All over the world. Sailing ship sailors are less wanted every year, and steamer sailors are more wanted. 122. There will always be a certain amount of trade carried on between our different ports by means of small schooners ?—There is always bound to be some trade of that kind. I may say that a schooner sailor makes a capital steamer sailor. 123. I suppose there will always be a certain amount of tonnage for sailing vessels about the coast of New Zealand I —That is true, but I think it will be less every year. 124. Will there be no means of employing these schooners between New Zealand and adjacent places such as Fiji ?—Yes ; but the steamers cut them out of a great deal of this trade. 125. In your opinion boys trained up with an actual experience of the sea will be useful ?—Yes ;, but they will be too old to go on steamers as boys.
Captain FaircMht. 21st July, 1882.',
7
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126. Is there an objection to take boys coming from reformatories ?—There is. Perhaps I was rather unfortunate, however. They sent me bad boys, perhaps thinking I had better means of keeping them. I do not know whether this objection will hold good with many. 127. If we compel vessels to take these boys, do you think there will be a cry raised that we are trying to force a criminal class of lads iipon them ?—I do not think so. A great many vessels have boys out of the Kohimarama School. I never heard any objection, though some of the boys had to be sent back. 128. You never found any objection raised to the boys?— Not because they came from the training ship. 129. The vessel at Kohimarama was stationary ?—I think entirely so for four or live years. There was then a schooner to run down to Auckland, but it was just the same as if there had only been a stationary vessel. The boys I got had no knowledge of seamanship at all. 130. Would you recommend in the using of these schooners that they should go short voyages?— I would make them go to the lighthouses occasionally, and also do some surveying. When some master comes in and reports rooks or shoals, it would be a good thing to let one of these schooners go out and search for it. That would be making some practical use of them, and teaching the boys seamanship as well. 131. When a man takes a boy out of a training ship, I suppose he expects him to possess some knowledge of the duties required of him ?—Yes. 132. The master of a vessel would feel disgusted when he found that a boy he had taken from a training ship knew nothing ? —Pie no doubt would. I found that myself. The training ship boys I had were really no good. 133. Do you think this was the fault of the system?—l think so. As I said before I think these small schooners which have been referred to might be turned to some account, and to a certain extent they might be made to pay their expenses. Suppose the lighthouse steamer came to grief. There would be the Auckland schooner at one end, and the Wellington boat at the other ready to do her work. 134. I suppose you would want about six hands on a schooner of a hundred tons?—l think with a crew of these boys such a vessel could do very well with one hand. 135. There will not then be much expense in keeping hands on one of these schooners ?—Not at all. When the vessel went to sea there would be no need to push her to make a rapid passage. She would only hare to feel her way along. 136. Mr Macandreio.~] You say that English ships are manned by foreigners now ?—Nearly all. 137. Does this apply to ships of the Empire or to New Zealand ships?—l refer to ships that, come from Home as well as to New Zealand vessels. I do not think I have an Englishman, Scotchman, or Irishman on board the Stella among the crew. 136. You think that our race is abandoning the sea?— Yes; because we have not compelled anyone to learn seamanship. 139. Has the rate of wages anything to do with it ] —There may be something in that, but I think, as 1 said before, that the chief reason is, that young men and boys are not now compelled to learn seamanship. 140. There are numbers of people employed in the fisheries at Home which are supposed to be the great nurseries of seamen ]—We do not find many of them coming here. Ido not know what becomes of them. Even our coasting trade has a lot of foreigners engaged in it. 141. Mr Swauson.^ Cannot these boys knot and splice?— Very little. 142. Nothing of any practical use?— Nothing the boys at Kohimarama learned was of any use on board a steamer. Knotting and that sort of work has gone quite out of date in these days of wire rigging. We use chains and shackles now and use wire where we used to have rope and a uiarlin spike to work with. 143. Did not these boys from the training school know the ropes?— They did not know them for a little while. They were all laid up with sickness directly they went to sea. 144. Surely these boys ought to have known where to go when told?— There were no ropes to learn them in the fore-and-aft schooner. I think she only had about four ropes. The lads had very little knowledge of ropes when I got them. 145. Then you think that for training sailors that the training ship at Kohimarama was a failui-e ?—- I think so. If the lads had been in a vessel that was moving about occassionally, the training might have been of some use. All the bo 3's learnt there I think they might have learnt at a Government school. 146. Had the boys learnt to box the compass?—l do not think so. 147. Mr Maeandrew."] I suppose some of the boys knew what a ropes' end meant?— Some of them ought to have known what it meant. I have already stated that most of the boys I had from the training school turned out very badly. 1 found afterwards that most of them had been sent to the training school for something very bad, and I consider that I was rather unfortunate with these boys. lam speaking of their conduct, and I may also say that they had not learnt any seamanship at all. 148. You think that the taste for maritime pursuits has died out, and that people will have to be compelled to learn seamanship ?—I think so, or else the people find something better to do. There are a good many reasons why ship owners will not have the boys. Boys arc a perfect nuisance on board ship. I think one of the chief reasons that English boys do not go to sea is, that the ships do not want them. They can get able men from some other country who have already learnt at someone else's expense. That is the reason there are so many foreigners in the English service. A troublesome boy beats everyone on board ship, and in almost all cases someone gets into trouble over the boy. Owners naturally do not care to take them if they can help it. To send boys to sea, however, is the only way to get seamen. 149. Mr Daniel.) Why are there so many foreigners in the British vessels?— They learn to be seamen in their own country and then they see that they can get higher wages in our trade and flock to our ships. Our owners seeing that they can get able men in this way will not take boys. 150. Mr. Joycc.~\ I will put a question that occurred tome at a previous meeting of the Committee. It is this :—Supposing that the boys are received on board ship, would the captain prefer boys who had come from a training ship, or boys who had been well trained so far as discipline is concerned at some
Captain Fairchikl.
21st July, 1882,
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establishment on shore. Whether a boy from a training ship with the possibility, perhaps, of not being so well morally trained as he would have been at a well-conducted establishment on shore, would be preferred by a captain to a boy who came from a good plaje on shore ?—I think the captain would prefer the training ship boy if he knew he had made a few voyages round the coast and learnt a little. A boy from an establishment on shore could not have any knowledge of seamanship. 151. You have thought of something that was not in my mind. You refer to a boy who has been in a training ship and cruising about the coast. In that case the difference would be between a trained boy and an untrained boy. I refer to a boy brought up in a hulk and a boy brought up in a good place on shore?—ln that case there would be little or no difference between the two boys. A boy on a hulk will only learn scholarship the same as he would at a school on shore. The case ot a boy from a shore establishment and a boy from one of the schooners referred to would be different. The boy from the schooner would not got sick and he would be able to steer. 152. Ido not seem to have made myself quite clear. Would 3'our observations enable you to form a decided opinion as to whether a training ship would turn out a boy for the purpose of a good seaman better than a well-conducted establishment on shore !—I do not think there would be much difference if the vessel did not move about. Such a vessel moored in a harbour would be almost the same, so far as the boys were concerned, as an establishment on shore. 153. Mr. Macandrew.~\ You would as soon take a boy from the Industrial School at Caversham as from the training ship at Kohimarama I—Yes. 154. Mr. W. J. Hurst.~\ Had you many boys from the Kohimarama training ship. You know there was a little vessel there. Surely boys brought up on shore would not possess the knowledge these boys had I —l believe they were taught to pull an oar. Ido not think the schooner was ever used to teach them seamanship. 155. Suppose we had a hulk, and the boys were put in one of these coasting vessels to learn real navigation and seamanship. Do you think at about seventeen they would be in a condition to be absorbed in the mercantile marine as ordinary seamen?—l should think before that age. I should say about sixteen. 156. I want to get a line between boys and men to be shipped as ordinary seaman ?—A boy trained in the way you have described could, I think, be shipped as an ordinary seaman at sixteen. 157. You ship in each vessel so many A.B.s and so many ordinary seamen I —Yes. 158. By having small vessels sailing about the coast, we can train lads up to sixteen, at which age, in your opinion, they will be able to get employment as ordinary seamen ?—I think so. Ido not say that ships will take them as full ordinary seamen at sixteen. I think, however, they will be glad to get them and call them boys for the first year, and make them ordinary seamen after that. 159. You say that owners hate boys, and are disinclined to take them. Do you refer to the class of boys we have just been speaking of —boys who have been properly trained ?—1 mean apprentice boys— boys who have to learn the work entirely. 160. If we train the boys up to a certain point there will bo a market for them ?—Owners will not then object to take them, but they will object to take apprentice boys without any knowledge. 161. Have you any knowledge of the Kohimarama institution. You say the boys were never sent outside ?—They never were, so far as 1 have heard. I believe they ware occasionally sent from Kohimarama to Auckland. 162. Were they not sent on trips to Kawau ?—I do not think so. Ido not think they ever went outside the North Head. 163. Of course a great deal depends on the skill of tlie men put over the boys. If the boys wwrekept in an establishment on shore, will it not be a difficult thing to control them and have command over them I —l do not think so. I think such an establishment could be worked well enough. Ido not think the boys would be satisfied if they were in a stationary hulk moored in a harbour. With a vessel moving about, I am sure they would turn out better men, for the}' will be learning something which they will be able to make their living by. Ido not think a training vessel moored in a harbour is the thing we want. They should go to sea and learn to steer and work a vessel ; and, as I said before, a small schooner could be turned to advantage in surveying and lighthouse work. 164. Air. Macandrew.~\ When electricity comes to be perfected there will be no sails required, will there?-—lf that is ever the case I think it will be a good while after we are dead. 165. The Chairman.] How long have you been to seal —More than half my life. I have been more than twenty years on the New Zealand co;ist, and ten years at sea besides this. 166. You have had a large amount of experience in sailing vessels ?—I have had some. 167. In the coasting trade t- —I sailed a vessel of my own upon the coast. 168. We have been speaking about steam vessels and sailing vessels. Is it not a certainty that for many years to come that a certain class of trade upon our own coast must employ sailing vessels ?—-Yes. Sailing vessels will not be done away with while many of us are alive, or while many of our children are alive. I believe they will get scarcer every year, but the difference will scarcely be noticed. 169. If you had to run a sailing vessel you would prefer men brought up in a sailing vessel to men brought up in a steamer ?—Yes. 170. Does a man taught seamanship on board a sailing vessel generally turn out a good steamer hand ?—These men make the best steamer hands, as they have some practical knowledge of the sea. That knowledge cannct be gained by lads kept in a harbour. 171. In regard to the children. You arc aware that there are two classes of children put in our Industrial Schools. One class is the criiuiunl t-lns,, consisting of boys who have been sent there for some actual offence against the law. The other class consists of unfortunates—neglected children, who.se parents have probably left them, taken to drinking, or sent to gaol ?—I am aware of that. The latter class you mention were the boys I tried to get. 172. You appear to have received the other kind?— Yes. 173. Do you think it desirable that these two classes should be mixed in our Industrial Schools ? Not if it could be avoided.
Captain Fairchild.
21st July, 1882,
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174. Do you think such a plan as this will meet the difficulty. Suppose we had a live training a vessel of the kind mentioned at Auckland and Dunedin, and a stationary hulk at Wellington. We might send the criminal lads to the stationary hulk, and keep the other boys on the live vessels ?—I do not ' think that would do. People would object at once, and say that all the bad boys were being sent to one place. 175. We might then keep the criminal boys away from the other ones?— Shipowners would be much more willing to take lads from a training vessel if it were known that criminal boys were not being sent there. The danger is that you may get criminal boys. I got them, and perhaps that makes me prejudiced against the Kohimarama training ship. They always sent me criminal boys. Some I had to send back, and others I could not manage at all. 176. Speaking of the objection to take apprentices, am I right in assuming that you refer to the objection owners would have to taking lads who had had no training I —Mostly. Owners do. not want to be compelled. If the apprentices had had some training, a great deal of the objection would be done away with. 177. Take the case of a lad of sixteen or seventeen, with a knowledge of practical navigation, and having a good character. There will not be much objection to him, I suppose? —None at all. 178. Take the case of the Auckland District. Is there any reason why a schooner should not be utilised in supplying the lights there at the Sandspit, Beam Rock, and Tiri Tiri ?—A schooner could do this work very well. I think they might also do some other work at the same time There is always surveying to be done. Every bit of spare time I have lam at this work, when some master has reported danger. It would be capital training for the boys. 179. Mr. Peacock] Outside the question of a Reformatory School for boys, do you think it will be desirable to have training vessels for the purpose of training ordinary respectable lads for the sea?—l do not think I quite understand you. 180. Would there be any necessity for training apprentices for the sea, if the question of reforming boys and providing for them had not to be considered. If it were not a question of dealing with de titute boys or boys sent for the purpose of being reformed, do you think there would be any necessity for a training vessel ?—I think if you are going to compel vessels to carry a certain number of apprentices you ought to try to give them a little training. 181. Cannot other means be found for teachiDg these apprentices their trade, than by compelling vessels sailing out of New Zealand ports to carry them I —Owners will object very much to being made to cany them. At the same time we must have seamen, of course. 182. Is there a difficulty with boys wanting to go to sea to get on vessels trading on the coast1? — Ships do not care to take them on. I think they would take them very much more willingly if they came from a training ship where they had been taught something of practical seamanship. 183. Do you think it would be desirable for the colony to have a vessel for the purpose of training boys as ordinary seamen so as to make them more acceptable to the owners of trading vessels t —Ships will not take boys now, if there were a training ship to which boys of the class you have leferred to could go for six months, owners would then, I think, be more likely to take them, and boys would no doubf ask to go into the training ship. 184. Is there any urgency for this ?—I do not think so, but there is no donbt that the race of English seamen is dying out. 185. With our vessels filled with so many foriegners the urgency of having a training vessel for boys not of a criminal class, is not very great in your opinion I —No, Ido not think it is very great. It would be a good thing no doubt but I do not know if it is really necessary. 186. Speaking of the other class of boys—those who are sent to our reformatories —you think if any good is to be done with them they must be in vessels which are kept moving about?— That must be done if you expect to do much good with them. If you keep them on board a hulk they will only learn what they could learn ashore. 187. Mr. W. J. Hurst.'] The vessels must be practical working vessels, so that the boys will understand their business?— Yes ; it' the lads are to learn anything of seamanship. 188. A boy could learn a great deal by the time he was sixteen or seventeen years old if he had been for some years on a moving training ship ?—Shipowners would then be glad to have him. 189. You are now speaking of boys of a non-criminal class ?—Yes ; people are afraid of getting criminal boys. 190. We must deal with the criminal bors somehow. Can you offer a suggestion as to how they should be dealt with ?—We might try to get them shipped, but then I suppose we have no right to put our criminals upon any one else. Ido not suppose there would be a great number of them. 191. Mr. T. Daniel.] Do you not think that these boys should be trained a little, and then have a recommendation to the captain ?—lf you mean criminal boys I must say that I should fight shy of them whether they had a recommendation or not. In one or two cases the boys I had from the Kohimarama School had behaved well in the school. Directly I had them they came out worse than ever. I was told that some of these boys had reformed, but they soon broke out again. 192. Mr. W. J. Hurst.] You are prejudiced, I suppose, on account of your unfortunate experience of these Kohimarama boys I —l admit that lam a little prejudiced. I only bad ten of them, and eight of that number turned out very badly. If my remarks upon the training school seem to throw discredit upon it Ido not mean to do so. Ido not want to throw discredit upon the management of the school, but I have simply told you my experience of the boys I had from it.
laptain Fairchild. 21st July, 1882.
Captain William. 27th July, 1882.
Thursday, 27th July. (Mr. Sheehan, Chairman.) Captain Williams, examined. 193. Ike Chcdtmm.] Captain Williams, do you think it would be advisable to compel masters of
I. 9.-3.
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vessels to take some boys as part of their crews ?—I cannot say I would use compulsion. I think master* and owners would take a certain proportion of boys without any compulsion. I have always done so. Within the last four months I have apprenticed four their parents have brought to me. I have one on every vessel. 194. Your own case is perhaps nearly exceptional. Would it not be desirable to compel those who do not take boys to do so I —l should think they would do it without any compulsion. I know 1 have always been glad to take a couple of boys. 195. You have heard of the training vessel at Auckland? —Yes. I have had three boys from it. One of them turned out to be a rather smart lad when he had served his time with me. 196 You know we have a large number of children who, from causes not within their own control, are sent to the industrial schools, and we want to know whether it would not be desirable, in the case of shipowners and masters who do not voluntarily help the State and themselves by taking some of ihese boys, to make them do so ?—Well, I think it would be desirable that every vessel should be compelled to carry a certain proportion of boys, but not too large a proportion. You might first begin with a small proportion and see how it went—say, two lads for a vessel of 200 tons, and more in proportion. I should like the Committee to distinctly understand that lam entirely in favor of training ships. Ido not think, though, that if we had training ships we should confine boys only to learning seamanship on them. My own experience in this matter is perhaps larger than that of anyone in Wellington. I was a fisherman in my young days. I know that we used to get 150 boys from the London workhouses every year, and on each fishing smack the crew consisted of ten hands, of whom five were apprentices. But they had always been previously taught some trade in the workhouses, and really smart lads some of them were. I think even if we had training ships it would be very hard to compel all the boys who were sent to them to go to sea afterwards. It is very hard to make a sailor of a lad if he makes up his mind that he does not like it. I know it worked very well at Home, because some of the boys we had from the workhouses, when their time with us was up, went back to the trades they had been formerly partly taught. If lads on the training vessels were each taught some land trade as well, people on shore would take them as apprentices much more readily frotn the year or two's learning they had already had. 197. I understand you have been recently in England?— Yes; last summer. Ido not think when I was a youngster that there was more than one training vessel, because all the fishing smacks and colliers and other coasters used to carry several apprentices. But now, I think, there are seven or eight moored training vessels on the Thames, and there is a small vessel rigged light, as a barque, which the lads, with the guidance of a man on board to tell them what to do, take up and down the river. They are exercised in this way two or three days a week, and when I was in London I watched it. They handle the vessel, and go through everything its smartly as possible. I asked a friend for all particulars about it, and I was told that the boys were trained in this way, and were afterwards drafted both into the merchant service and the navy. I may say this, that twenty-four years ago a large number of seamen were brought up in the fishing smacks, and the colliers were nearly all sailing vessels, and all of them carried boys. Now, however, there is hardly any of this training for boys. There is not half the number of fishing smacks, and the coal carrying is almost all done by steam. Half the fishing, too, is done by steam screws. In the Bristol Channel I found that even the towing boats, when not engaged in towing, let down their trawls and fished ; so now there is not half the number of boys required that there were formerly, and I believe myself that it is through so few boys being now wanted for the smacks and coasters that they have been obliged to have so many training vessels to sends the lads to, to keep them out of mischief. 198. You account for the disappearance of the coasters and smacks by steam ?—Yes. 199. And so the demand for apprentices has decreased?— Yes, very largely on that account. 200. Then would you favor having large vessels moored as training vessels? —Yes, I would, if they are to be had. You might get one of the old frigates from Home and divide it into two or three compartments for the different classes of boy?. I would not put the decent boys with the criminal lads. Those boys who, after a year or two in the training vessel, did not wish to go to sea, might be apprenticed on shore to whatever trade they had been partly taught on the vessel, while for those who wished to be seamen, you should have a light vessel rigged with yards attached to the training ship, in which they could occasionally be exercised ; and in this way they could learu every detail of the practical work of a sailor. Those who had been practised like this for a year or two would very readily find billets on other vessels. lam sure I should be very glad to take any of them whenever I had an opening. 201. Taking the present position of affairs, we have Industrial Schools in different places. How would it do to draft off a number of lads from them from time to time to training vessels?— Yes, 1 think that would answer. The great thing is to get the boys wholly away from their parents and associates, and you would be better able to keep them like that on board a vessel. 202. I believe parents now have only access to their children in the Industrial Schools under certain restrictions?—l should think in a large harbour like this, where you have every convenience, it would be less expensive to maintain a training vessel—a large ship—than an Industrial School ashore. 203. You would not be in favor of associating criminal boys with those sent to a training ship for such causes as the neglect or drunkenness of their parents? —No, certainly not. I have had experience in my own vessels of the evils of that. I had two very decent boys from Auckland, and another who was a free immigrant. He was about the biggest scamp that ever was. We had to thrash him for stealing a sovereign from the captain's cabin. A boy that is a regular little scoundrel will soon teach other boys with whom he is put. I have known several instances too at Home in. my young days of the evil of putting good lads along with young rascals. Some of the boys we used to get from the workhouses were as good lads as you could wish to have, while others were such young radicals that you could do nothing with them. It is most important to keep them separate. 204. Mr. Turnbull.] Considering the very large seaboard of New Zealand, do you not think that a very large number of boys will always be wanted for sailing coasters ?— I am convinced that in a few years time all the coasting trade will be done by steam. My experience teaches me that it is coming
Captain Williams,
27th July* 1882,
11
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more and more to that every day. But still a steamer could carry one or two boys as well as a sailing c vessel. I have come to the conclusion that in a very short time all the coasting trade will be done by steam. What is tending a good deal to that is this, that steamers are now able to get coals at almost every port, and at a low price, and that enables thsm to take only a small stock at a tima, leaving the more room for paying cargo. 205. Mr Turnbull.] But if you trained boys they would do for the steamers I —Yes ; there is a great advantage in having the boys on the water at an early age. You will find that boys who are on the water a good deal when young, such as fishermen's boys, are not troubled much with sea-sickness, and, therefore, when they are put aboard a ship, they are much more useful than boys who are sick. 206. Would you think that a training vessel in one place would be enough—say a vessel attached to the Training School, on which might be placed all the boys who had a taste for the sea I —l should think you could readily have a training vessel at each of the four principal ports—Auckland, Wellington, Lyttelton and Port Chalmers. The boys are increasing in number every year. When last we required boys we had to send to Auckland for eight. 207. What size vessel would you recommend?—l should think a handy little vessel of about 150 tons or so would do. You should have her brig-rigged, because it is important to teach the boys how to handle the yards, and boys who were taught to handle a brig would always be able to manage a barque. The little barque I spoke of on the Thames, it was astonishing to see how smartly the boys were able to handle her. 208. Would a three-masted schooner do I—Yes, if there were yards on her. That is important, because you want to learn the boys to wear ship, and all the movements in connection with it. 209. Mr Daniel~\ Don't you think a brig would be most convenient I —l think a brig would do very well, but a three-masted schooner with yards would do just as well. 210. Do you not think now the freezing apparatus is coming into vogue thatthere will be soon a much greater demand for fish, and that we shall want fishing-smacks ?—I do not think we shall ever be in a position to send fish to the Home market. One reason why there is not much fishing here is because meat is so cheap, but, of course, as meat gets dearer fishing will increase. A few years ago hundreds of tons offal were thrown overboard from the rhhing smacks, but all that is now sold readily in the London market on account of the dearness of meat. 211. As we are going to resume immigration, do you not think it would be well to bring out a few good fishermen, with their families and their smacks and the crews?—lf 3'ou could get them they would do well in the Fcveaux Strait, no doubt. 212. Yes, the fishermen that are there now after one trip will not work again till they are clean swept out I —Yes ; you will find a good deal of that everywhere. I think the right sort of people would do well down there. As an old fisherman I shall be glad to give any information I can on that subject. 213. Mr. Peacock.] How long a training would be necessary before you could send boys oft' as able seamen I —You couldnever make them able seamen in training vessels ; that can only be learnt in actual work and in going about to different places, and if you kept boys too long in the training vessels, it would be apt to give them an inclination for a lazy life. What is wanted is to give them a year or two of training, and then send them off to merchant vessels. 214. We have it in the evidence of a previous witness, that some shipowners do not cure to be troubled with boys. Do you not think if the boys were made pretty efficient, first of all, on training vessels, this would overcome the aversion to taking boys on the part of the owners I —Of course a trained boy would be often taken where an untrained one would not be. But if you compel masters to take boys, you should also make provision so that these boys would not have too much, their own way. A groat deal of the cause of the dislike to taking boys comes from this, that the lads have too much their own way, and if they are brought before the Court for anything, the sympathies of the Magistrates are always with the boys, and the master always gets the worst of it ; masters, therefore, will very often not be troubled with boys on that account. Masters should have power to keep the boys straight, and not allow them to go ashore too much at night. I think if you compel a master to take a boy, you must also give him considerable power over him, not to illuse him, but to be stringent with him. 215. Masters, of course, would prefer to have trained boys ?—Yes, very much. They want the boys, ready to <io anything as soon as they are shipped. 216. Then the experience they acquired on training vessels would be appreciated I —Very much. I would prefer a trained boy three to one against an untrained lad. 217. The Chairman.] Suppose a lad left a training-vessel at sixteen or seventeen after a couple of years' training, would he not practically be an ordinary seaman'?— Yes. Of course there is a good deal of difference in boys. You would want to leave small and weakly boys a year longer on the training shipthan you would the strong ones. 218. I think we are hardly in a position to get training vessels of large size, where we could keep boys separate and teach them trades, and, at the same time, practical seamanship. Suppose we had one large vessel in some port, and sent all boys of one class to that? You might keep one class of boys on one deck and another on the other. There are hundreds of large ships disused at Home that you could get for the purpose and it would be very easy to keep them separate. 219. Mr. Peacock.] Do you not think that keeping the boys in distinct classes would cause unpleasantness 'I —l Jo not think so. Ido not say it would be right to keep boys altogether in the lower class. You might put a criminal boy for a year or so in his own class, and when you thought fit you might put him among the good conduct boys, with the understanding that if he did not br-have well he would be sent back to his old quarters and punished. But I would have the power of flogging small boys. They do not care for confinement, it is no punishment to many young scamps, but if they got a light whipping itwould cure them altogether. 220. Mr. Daniel.] The boys are kept separate on the merchant vessels. Apprentice boys there do not quarter with the crew, though they work with them?— Yes; those boys are kept in separate quarters from the crew. Of course they pull and haul with the sailors, but then they have no time for talking, and as soon as the work is over they separate immediately. It is not when working together that boys learn harm, it is when they mix with sailors in the forecastle.
Captain Williams, «w> 1882>
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Friday, 11th August, 1882. (Mr. Turnbull, in the chair.) Captain Rose, Manager, New Zealand Shipping Co., examined. 221. The Chairman.~\ The Committee wish to have your opinion, Captain Rose, as to whether it is desirable that sea-going vessels to carry a certain number of apprentices and boys who had to be trained to act as officers and sailors. Will you give it ?—-I may say that in my young days it was compulsory that each ship should carry a certain number of boys according to her tonnage. Thafc is not the case now, but I think it was a great mistake to do away with the custom. There are a large number of ports in New Zealand, and doubtless in future years there will be a demand for seamen. Consequently I think it would be well to make ships carry a limited number of boys. Ordinary size vessels, say, of 1000 tons, or thereabouts, used to be compelled to carry one boy to each 100 tons, but they used voluntarily to carry four boys to each ship. 222. Do you think that if the boys were fairly educated and cared for, there would be any objection to placing them on board ship?—No; not so long as they were not tainted with crime. The New Zealand Shipping Company carry four boys in each of their ships. 223. And what chances have these boys of rising 2 —We take them purposely to make officers of them. We partly educate them, and they have to go through the whole life of a sailor, and do all his duties, in order that they may become efficient seamen. 224. Would there be any objection to taking another class of boys whom you would not have to take so much trouble with ?—No, they would do for ordinary seamen. 225. Would there be any objection to take a boy who had been unfortunate enough to behave criminally, and to have been taken before a magistrate I —Yes; I think so. 226. Have you any experience with regard to training ships ?—I know something of those training ships where a boy goes to learn navigation, and where he has to pay for being taught at the rate of .£5O a year, but I do not know anything of the training ships for boys of bad character. 227. For how long are boys appienticed in your ships?— Five years is the usual term. 228. Do you not think that the smaller coasting vessels might carry a few boys?—A good deal would depend on the size of the vessel. 229. How long do you think it would take to train a boy to be a sailor?— About four years, I should say. We have got many men now who are not better sailors than some boys who have been to sea for four years only. I may mention also that one fourth of our seamen are foreigners, and that we have a great difficulty in getting English sailors. 230. What wages do you pay a boy ?—About ten shillings a month the first voyage, and the pay gradually increases afterwards. An ordinary seaman gets 30s a month. 231. Would these boys be put in the forecastle with the sailors?— Yes. 232. And they would be likely to be influenced by the conduct of the sailors with whom they were associated I—Yes. 233. What is the number of vessels owned by your Company?— Eighteen, and we carry four boys on each ship. In addition to these boys we usually carry two ordinary seamen, who are young men. 234. Do you think the increase of sailors would be likely to diminish the demand for boys?—l think not. 235. Do you think it would be better to have a stationary training vessel, or one that would travel about ?—I think it would be better to have two vessels—one to be used as a school, and another on which they could be taken out to sea and exercised there. In the navy at Home they have small brigs, in which the boys go out into the Channel and cruise about. 236. Do you think there is any disadvantage in having boys on board the ships ?—No ; they are kept under strict discipline. 237. Hon. T. Dic7c.~\ When you speak of the four boys that you carry on each ship, do j Tou mean the apprentices ?—Yes. 238. Do you always take your boys from New Zealand, or doyou get some of them in London ?— Wo always take them from New Zealand. Our rule is that when anybody wishes to send a respectable boy to sea, an application is made to the local manager, and the boy awaits his turn to be taken on if he is found to be suited for the work. We have always plenty of applications from young men who wish to become officers. 239. Do you have many applications from the other class of boys—those who wish merely to become sailors ?-—We have only had about a dozen since I become connected with the Company. 240. Have you taken any boys from the school at Kohimarama ?—I think not. 241. Would boys who had had two or three years training be more acceptable to masters of vessels than others who had had no experience I —Yes, I should think so. 242. Are your ships frequently in need of such lads?—No ; because we always have our own apprentices. We alwaj's have from thirty to fifty applications on our books for appointments. 243. Then you do not open your doors to boys of the lower class ?—No. I should say that vessels which go short voyages might take boys from the training ship, because if they were found to be objectionable, it would not be difficult (o get rid of them, I know that if I were the owner of a number of vessels trading between here and the ©ther colonies, as Captain Williams is, I should be glad to take a limited number of boys. 244. Mr Daniel^] You would have no objection to take a boy from the training ship if he had a good character from the master of the school ?—Not at all, provided the boys were not too young. Of course they would have to go to the forecastle. 245. Son T. Dick] Those boys of inferior rank would have to do the dirtiest part of the work and would not get off so easily as your apprentices ?—Yes, that is the case. 246. Tlie Chairman^ What sized vessel would be handiest for these boys to be trained in?—A brigantine of about 100 tons would be all that was requied. 247. Hon. T. Dick. | Could boys of twelve or fifteen years handle a boat of that size I —At Home they generally have a boatswains mate or somebody of that sort with them
Captain Rose.
11th August, 1882.
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248. Mr. Macandrew.~\ Supposing there was only to be one hulk in the Colony to be used as a training ship, in which port would you put it I —l do not think that would matter much. Perhaps, however, if you drew your boys from all parts of the Colony, it would be better to have the ship in a central port. This harbour would be very suitable, and so would Auckland. 2 19. the, Chairman] Then a boy would earn 10s a month I —Yes, from. 10s to £1. 250. Could these boys easily get employment 1-- 1 think they could. 251. Do you think it would be objectionable to compel vessels to take these lads I —l do not see that it would be so, as long as the number they were compelled to take was limited. There can be no doubt that the scheme would be beneficial, inasmuch as it would have the effect of raising up sailors. 252. Hon. T. Dick] Would it be objectionable, if we insisted that a couple of boys should be carried by each vessel ?—I do not think so. There would be a certain amount of difficulty experienced with regard to what should be done with the lads when the ships reached Home. To meet this difficulty, we have a place of our own at Limehouse. 253. Could they not go into the Sailors' Home 1 —Yes, they might be placed there. 254. The Chairman] If boys from the training school were apprenticed to vessels going short voyages, for how long do you consider they should be apprenticed I —For four years. 255. And would you advise that they should be apprenticed, or do you think the captain should have power to send them Home if they did not suit?—l think it would be better to apprentice them, because then they would be more under discipline. 256. Mr Daniel.] Suppose you took a lad of sixteen years of age from a training ship, do you not think three years would be sufficient to enable him to become an able seaman I —Yes. 257. Mr. Swanson] If a boy had been put into the training school, say for orchard-robbing, would you not consider the magnitude of his offence before refusing to take him on board your vessel I —You would hardly consider him a hardened criminal for an offence of that sort?—No ; of course some consideration would be given to the nature of the offence. 258. The Chairman] If the master of the training ship were a man of good eh iracter, you would take a boy on his recommendation I —Yes ; I would suggest that the master should be a good seaman, and one who would take an interest in the boys. He should also be a firm man who would carry out strict discipline. 359. Mr. Daniel.'] There would be no difficulty in getting a really good man at home ?—No ; but you could get good men in the Colony.
Captain Rose.
11th August, 1882.
APPENDICES AND EVIDENCE. No. 1. Statement by Mr. Habens, in reply to Memorandum from J. Sheelian, Esq., as Chairman of Committee on Naval Training Vessels. 1. Extract from report for 1881 by the Hon. the Minister of Education (E.-l, page itil). — "At the end of March in the present year [1882] the [Kohimarama Naval Training] School was broken up, it being considered that in the present circumstances of the colony no adequate return was obtained for the comparatively large outlay on an institution of this character."—l can find no other statement assigning a reason for the closing of the school. 2. Cost of maintenance, with reference to special expenditure connected with the special character of the school at Kohimarama.—The school was open eighty-eight months, and the expenditure during the whole period was £16,777 16s. 3d., or at the rale of £2,287 i7s. Bd. a year. The expenditure for hire and repair of one schooner, and for building another, amounted to £1,095 lls. Bd. So far as I can judge from the accounts (which have not been s<> kept as to afford means of making the required distinction with any precision), the expenditure on stores has not been greater than it would have been il the school had been simply an industrial school. The staff was, 1 think, more expensive than would have been allowed for an industrial school of the size. The salaries have amounted to nearly £>00 a yeaf. The average number of boys cannot be exactly slated I think sixty-three is the number as nearly as can be ascertained. The salaries at Buruham Industrial School do not amount to so much, though the attendance exceeds two hundred. At Lyttelfon Orphanage, with an attendance of about one hundred, the salaries amount to £525. Perhaps the fairest comparison, however, is between the former and the present salaries at Kohimarama. We now pay £320, the number of boys being about the same as before. 3. Number of boys admitted, and their destination on leaving the school. —The complete return in answer to this question is in preparation. I will send it in in a day or two. The number admitted is about two hundred and fifty. Two years ago one hundred and sixty had left the school, as follows : —Died, 1; expelled, 2; sent to prison, 4 ; discharged when term expired or sent home, 55 ; absconded (not retaken), 4; apprenticed to the sea, 65; apprenticed to other callings, 29; total, 160. The statement I am to supply will account for all the boys that were ever admitted to the school. 4. Cost of vessel, £859 15s. 6d, including small alterations (£3l 2s. 6d.) ; tonnage, 37tVu tons. Cost of running.—l think the schooner was very little used, and I cannot ascertain that she cost more on a cruise than when at anchor. 5. Apprenticeship to sea service was under sections 23 ; 24, and 25 of "The Naval Training Schools Act, 1874" (So. 56).—This recognizes any British ship registered at or trading with the Colony of New Zealand. The manager or the parent entered into indentures of apprenticeship. The boy was always more than twelve years old, and could not be bound beyond the age of eighteen. The form of an indenture contains provisions (with blanks) for maintenance and pay.
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6. I have no doubt that the most efficient training is to be obtained by taking the vessel to sea. I know of fifteen training ships in Great Britain and .Ireland. Two of them have tenders for the purpose of giving the boys the benefit of the experience that cannot be obtained at anchor. The others, I believe, are stationary. There is much to be said in favour of the Kohimarama plan of residence on shore and an occasional cruise. If the question refers to the opinion of persons who can speak with authority and from experience, 1 have no other source of information than the last report of the Inspectors of Reformatory and Industrial Schools of Great Britain, and that has come into my hands (the 23rd, dated 1880). On page 137, speaking of the "Formidable," which lies at Portishead,Bristol, he says: " The services of the tender ' Polly ' have been of great utility in giving a thoroughly practical direction to the training of the elder lads in renl seamanship. 1 heard with regret that the managers have difficulty as to the maintenance of the tender, owing to the expense of keeping her up." With regard to the "Mars," at Dundee, which has a tender, the "Lightning," he says: "The tender has been most usefully engaged in taking out the senior boys for a cruise in deep water. This practical training in real seamanship is of the utmost importance to the boys, as it fits them at once for service, and adds to their value (page 223). 7. Without any reference to the general question of centralization, I am of opinion that for a long time to come there could be no profitable employment of two training ships in New Zealand, in connection with industrial schools. —The number of boys in all the industrial schools of the colony at the end of last year was 404 (including 53 at Kohimarama.) About one-half the children in the schools are under ten years old : suppose there are 200 boys above that age. These boys are not all physically fit for the sea, and some have not the spirit of daring that is necessary to make a good sailor. It is probably not desirable to force unwilling boys to enter on a seafaring life. I should think that certainly not more than sixty or seventy would be fit for it. I find that in Great Britain only onesixth of the reformatory andindustrial school boys are in training ships. The smallest number in one ship —sixty-seven—is, perhaps, as large as the whole number of suitable boys in New Zealand. The average number in Great Britain and Ireland is about 250 to one ship. The total number is about 3,300, besides about 300 on board the " Warspite," which belongs to the " Marine Society," a benevolent institution maintained by private contributions ; and 200 on board the " Worcester," which is the ship of " The Thames Nautical Training College," an association for training youths to become properlyqualified officers of merchant vessels. 8 and 9. The Inspector of Industrial and Beformatory Schools in Victoria informed me when I was in Melbourne two years ago that the Victorian Government had abandoned the scheme of nautical training for the boys of these schools, on the ground that association with sailors had been found to be unusually injurious to the boys. I do not remember his speaking specifically of any particular fault, except the use of profane and foul language. I have no evidence to offer beyond my own clear recollection of the statement made by the Inspector. 10. I do not regard the distinction between convicted children and those that are not convicted as a practical one to work by. It is a distinction depending upon accidents: the accident of discovery; the accident of coiisiderateness on the part of a committing magistrate ; and so on. The Manager of Kohimarama frequently complained of the presence of a criminal element in his school. Under section 9 of " The Naval Training School Act, 1874," a boy charged " with an offence punishable by imprisonment or other punishment," but not convicted of felony, might be sent to a naval training school. Captain Breton complained (1878, H.—l2, page 4), that this section was "in many instances too liberally interpreted"; but, he adds, " it is also a fact that snme of the worst-behaved and most irreclaimable boys have been sent under the provision of section 10." Section 10 relates to boys whose parents or guardians represent that they cannot control the boys, and on such representation get an order for committal. 11. The preceding answers seem to me to cover most of the ground. Perhaps after I have been re-examined I may be in a better position to know what further information would be deemed useful by the Committee. In the meantime it seems important that I should submit without delay what I have already written. I have, &c. 19th July, 1882. Wm. J. Habens.
No. 2. Further replies to Questions 3 and 11. 3. I have to explain that my information as to the boys that have been in the Naval Training School is derived from the periodical returns made by the manager, arid not from the original records winch are still at Kohimarama. Owing partly to the over-lappiug of returns, partly to the different methods of making them, and partly to the fact that some boys are entered twice, having been recommitted after serving a first term, the difficulty of making a certainly correct report has proved to be greater than I expected. The uncertainty, however, lies within narrow limits, and does not affect more than three cases. The number of admissions from first to last was 246, distributed over different periods as follows :— Committed before June 30, 1875 ... ... ...40. Between July 1, 1875 and June 30, 1876 ... ... 51, making to date 91 1876 „ 1877 30, „ „ 121 1877 „ 1878 29, „ „ 150 1878 „ 1879 ... ... 28, „ „ 178 „ „ 1879 March 31, 1880 ... ... 21, „ „ 199 „ March 31, 1880 „ 1881 ... ... 30, „ „ 229 1881 „ 1882 17, „ „ 246 ISTo. 34 is identical with No. 84,'N0. 52 with No. 152, and No. 132 with No. 188. No. 101 has the same name as No. 118, and is probably the same boy. The only numbers that I have not the means
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of identifying are No. 58 and No. 115. I have come to the conclusion that in all probability one of these two was recommitted under another number, and that the other is a boy sent to the hospital in the latter part of last year. Assuming that the number of recommittals was 5, and that one of the unidentified numbers represents a boy sent to the hospital, there are 240 boys to be accounted for out of 241 admitted. There are records in the office of the Education Department relating to the manner in which, the 240 boys left the school. The following analysis of their cases is approximately correct: — Apprenticed to the sea ... ... ... ... ... 45 „ or licensed to other callings ... ... ... 44 Discharged when term of committal expired ... ... ... 54 Released to care of friends before end of term .. ... ... 64 Discharged as physically unfit ... ... ... ... 2 Expelled for misconduct ... ... .. ... ... 2 Absconders ... ... ... ... ... ... 10 Imprisoned for offences ... ... ... ... ... 5 Deceased ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 Transferred to Industrial School ... ... ... ... 13 Total ... ... 240 I propose to get the original records from Auckland in order to clear up the doubtful points to which I have adverted. 4. I enclose a copy of report for the year ending 30th June, 1879, on the New South Wales Nautical School ship " Vernon." This is the latest report I. have seen upon that institution. At the date of the report there were 112 boys on board, between seven years old and eighteen. Children under three years of age were admitted during the year, but all below the age of six were transferred to a girls' school. Of 52 boys apprenticed during the year, 19 went to sea. The information in the following table is extracted from the reports published in 1880 on Reformatory and Industrial Schools iv Great Britain and Ireland :—
The " Warspite," at Woolwich, receives boys between thirteen and sixteen years of age. As far as means will allow, the general system of training is the same as that practised in the Royal Navy. The number of boys is about 300. The cost is about £17 a year each. Orphans, children of the labouring classes, and street-boys are the ordinary objects of the charity. The " Worcester," off Greenhithe, 72 guns and 4,725 tons, is placed by the Admiralty at the disposal of an Association, the Thames Nautical Training College. She accommodates about 200 boys. They learn practical seamanship, navigation, nautical astronomy, English, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, mechanics, the steam engine, marine surveying, freehand drawing, chart drawing, and French. The fees are 45 or 50 guineas, according to age, with 10 guineas for uniform, medical attendance, washing, books, and stationery. The course is intended to prepare them to become officers of merchant vessels. H.M.S. "Britannia " is the training ship for Royal Naval cadets. Candidates are admitted by nomination and examination. The examination is in arithmetic, algebra, geometry, English, French, Scripture history, and two subjects out of the three following : Mathematics, Latin, and geography and history. Ido not know the number of cadets. I have not been able to obtain any information of the existence of other training ships in the United Kingdom. 25th July, 1882. Im. J. Habens.
* The only Industrial School for Protestant boys in Ulster.
Ship. Boys. Cost per Head. Officers. Reformatory — " Cornwall," off Purfleet " Akbar," Liverpool ... " Clarence " (Roman Catholic), Liverpool industrial — " Clio," Carnarvon "Mt. Edgcumbe," Saltash, Devon " Wellesley," JNL Shields " Shaftesbury," off Gray's "Havannah," Cardiff.. "Formidable," Bristol " Southampton," Hull " Cumberland," Dumbarton " Mars," Dundee " Gibraltar," Belfast ... 260 174 228 243 227 300 240 69 297 231 369 353 298* £ 8. d. 22 6 4 21 17 9 22 0 6 22 6 5 14 4 6 20 13 11 31 16 0 14 2 0 19 5 4 20 15 3 18 17 10 17 11 3 1G 5 0 11 12 14 13 11 24 26 4 19 18 17 19 15 3,289 £20 nearly. 203
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No. 3. Return of Vessels registered in the Colony on the 31st December, 1881.
Number. Tonnage. Sailing Vessels ... ... ... ... ... 443 ... 56,751 Steam Vessels ... ... ... ... ... 129 ... 15,636 Grand Total ... 572 ... 72,387 Number of Men and Boys employed, 3,579. "William Seed, Customs Department, Wellington, Secretary and Inspector. Ist August, 1882.
Authority: G-eorge Didsbuby, Government Printer, Wellington.—lBB2.
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Sailing Vessels, Steam Vessels. Of and tinder 50 Tons. Above 50 Tons. Total Sailing Vessels. Of and Under 50 Tons. Above 50 Tons. Total Steam Vessels. V. T. V. T. V. T. V. T. V. T. V. T. Luckland Napier iVellington kelson jy ttelton Dunedin 141 5 10 15 27 30 7 3,965 126 333 394 786 1,028 205 78 3 29 4 46 42 6 11,084 642 6,554 248 24,055 6.530 801 219 8 39 19 73 72 13 15,049 766,S87 642 24,841 7,558 1,006 34 6 5 3 8 11 923 143 186 57 286 311 16 1 15 6 1 22 1 1,839 62 2,030 5S7 70 9,076 66 50 7 20 9 9 33 1 2,762 205 2,216 644 356 9,387 66 .nvercargill Totals ... 235 6,837 208 49,914 443 56,751 67 1,906 62 13,730 129 15,63i
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Bibliographic details
NAVAL TRAINING VESSELS COMMITTEE (REPORT OF THE), TOGETHER WITH THE MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX., Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1882 Session I, I-09
Word Count
19,350NAVAL TRAINING VESSELS COMMITTEE (REPORT OF THE), TOGETHER WITH THE MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1882 Session I, I-09
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