HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVIII, Issue 3884, 15 August 1873, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

FBiDAir, 14th August, 1873. The Speaxeb took the chair afc half-past . two o'clock. PETITIONS. Among. the petitions presented were two by Karaitiana Takamoana, one from 300 natives . of the East Coast praying for a new Native . Londs Act, and one from 371 natives of the ,' same' district praying for the appointment of a second Native Lands Alienation Commission. TABIPB BILL. The House went into committee on tbe Customs Tariff Bilh On clause 2 being put, Sir F. D. Bell said that he wished to speak on the general question, but had not had an opportunity of doing so earlier.' He thought tbe House could not relieve itself of the responsibility of the measure as suggested by Mr Gillies the pre- . vious day. He had been long since an advocate of ad valorem duties. They would both be beneficial to trade and acceptable to fcbe taxpayers. He thought that in the objection in regard to fraud there was much exaggeration. The duties would not give anything ■ like, the encouragement to fraud fchat was alleged.. He wished to draw attention to the degree in which the amount of taxeß'paid per I.hep.d had. varied, within the past five or six years. He read a .comparative statement from which it appeared that tbe rate per head was at its highest' in 1867, when it was £5 12a 4d ; the lowest in 1870 when it was £3 19s. When once the consumption of luxuries fell off to such an extent as ' this showed, it would take some considerable time before ib would rise again. • He thought that in this country the taxes were unfairly raised j-100 large a proportion of them was taken from the lv bo ring •classes. He deprecated, however, being supposed to come out in the character of the poor man's friend. Being a considerable employer of labor, he bad had an opportunity of making inquiries with regard to their condition, and he calculated .hat tho working classes of the colony had reoeived in the aggregate this year £400,000 from their employers iv excess of the sum that they had

received last year. At the same time, the excess of the profits of the employing classes for last year over their profits of the year previous was even greater than this. There was therefore no reason, in the increase of wages, for refraining from altering the system of taxation so as to make ifc bear more heavily on the wealthy. Tbey were now, as was admitted- by the Treasu er, paying the interest on the cost of railways during construction out of loon. He had nothing to say against the principle so long as it was honestly avowed — which in similar circumstances, it was not last year —but h? would point oufc that ifc could not be continued very much longer, and when ifc ceased, an increase of taxation would be necessary. They should make this* increasod taxation boar most heavily on the wealthy. Mr YOGEL spoke with reference to the circumstances under which the proposal to pay interest oufc of loans had been brought down last year. There was nothing objectionable in them. The House had known of the. proposal from the beginning. Mr SWANSON thought a far larger proportion of taxation should fall on the wealthy than now fell on fchem. They might, with advantage, impose a tax on wool. One of ld in the pound, would raise £174,000, and of _d in fche pound one of £87,000. Ifc might even be a good one for the runholders. They would have to pay the same on bad wool as on good, and so would have every inducement to improve their breeds. Mr YOGEL thought tho laboring classes had benefited very greatly by the public works going on, more indeed than any other class. It was suggested thafc an export duty should be imposed on wool as on gold, bufc it was forgotten fchafc the gold duties were a special tax, and were all spent where fchey were raised. The wool owners were prosperous at present., but had' recently been murh fche reverse, had made loses instead ofproflls. There was, he thought, no occasion for an increase of taxation, nor would there be. In the present year, he anticipated there would be the heaviest expenditure of any year. That would be the case, at any rate, if the Government scheme of localising the co-fc of public works was carried out An income tax was objectionable as falling mosfc heavily on the mo r t conscientious class in the country. A prope* ty tax would deteriorate property by preventing improvements, and would be a hindrance to the influx of settlers. There was, however, nofc the least need for either of them. As to tlio liability of the colony being heavy, he believed ifc could be doubled or trebled without doing | any mischief. When figures wero quoted to show that the taxation of the country was heavy, ifc was forgotten that fche taxation in New Zealand rapresented the taxation in Great Britain, plus fche expenditure on the construction of railways. He apologised for going into this general discussion. Ifc had been forced upon him. The clause was passed, and some other clauses were disposed of. Mr JOHNSTON asked whether English goods imported from Melbourne would pay fche English or the Melbourne price ? Mr REYNOLDS replied, the Melbourne price. That course would encourage direct importations. Mr YOGEL said the question was decided by the fact where fche invoico came from. If they were in bond afc Melbourne, and transhipped, they would be charged on the original invoices. Mr WEBB pointed out tbat, efen in that oase, the goods would bear the merchants' profits. Mr YOGEL said the clause was taken verbufcim from the Victorian Acfc. He would take advice, uowever, as to fche necessily for amending ifc to remove ambiguity. The clause passed without amendment. The remaining clauses having been passed, the House proceeded to consider fche schedule. Mr YOGEL, in accordance with his pievious announcement, moved that the articles charged 15, 12_-, and 10 per cenfc in the schedule should be charged uniformly 10 per cenfc. Mr JOHNSTON moved, as an amendment, that they should be charged 1\ per cent. He said tbat calculations he had made, based on the statement of values furnished to him by the Commissioner of Customs, led to the i conclusion thafc the ad valorem duties, even at the 10 per cenfc rate, would bring in revenue to tho amount of £72,000 in excess of that | which would have been collected under the measurement system. Considerable discussion ensued, which was interrupted by the hour. . On the House resuming at 7.30 p.m, the consideration of the schedule of the Tariff Bill m committee was continued. The question before the HousO was Mr Johnston's amendment. Mr SHEPHARD spoke in support of the amendment, Mr YOGEL said he thought ifc was time he Bhould. explain fchat the Government had not brought down thafc bill wilh fche view of giving hon members an opportunity of suggesting a variety 0 f Bystems^pf taxation. The Government were in a difficulty this session owing fco there being no one whom they could look to as the leader of fche Opposition. Sometimes it seemed to be Mr Gillies., sometimes Mr Wood, and sometimes Mr Murray seemed to lead, and had no one to support him ; somelimes Mrßolle.ton seemed to lead, and found himself in the same position • to-night, however, it was another member — the member for Manawatu, who led. .The agitation had come from personsdirectlyinterested pecuniarly. The Government would be much to blame if they did not make a firm stand in fche matter. Mr BUNNY was glad to find the Government would make o stand. He would, however, vote for Mr Johnston's amendment. The action of the Government in the mattei showed that they had nofc given sufficient consideration to the subject. He thought the present system of raising the revenue of the country was most unjust. They were raising ifc mainly from the working classes. Mr JOHNSTON said the statement that had been handed to them by the Commismiesioner of Customs showed that the 10 per cent tariff would produce £72.000 more than the old system, and the 7£ per cent tariff would raise £20,000 more than the old duties. Mr YOGEL would point oufc thafc the statement in question was based merely on a few random invoices. Mr JOHNSTON said i"; waß afc any rate the only evidence they had before them. If the Government would admit that they intended to increase the taxation, he would withdraw bis amerdment. Mr.T. L. SHEPHERD thought it would be better to pass the tariff as proposed. If there was superflous revenue, another year, tbe duties might be reduced. Mr ANDREW would support the measure on similar grounds. Mr FOX thought it was ungenerous on the part of Mr Johnston nofc to accept the con-, cossious already made by the Government. A good doal of what had been called buncomb at the other end of the House had been talked there aboufc fche working man. One would have thought that the Government were about to impose fresh taxation on the working men, instead of to some extent relieving them. Mr "WOOD said ifc seemed Mr Yogel was in a difficulty in not finding a leader of the Opposition. Tbat was quito natural. There was no opposition. They were all Government supporters. (Laughter.) The only difference was thafc there were some members who followed wherever Mr Yogel led, ond others wished to exercise their own intellects. The question before them was a matter of calculation, nofc of parfcy feeling or opinion. Mr REYNOLDS s.iid there was one point he thought, ifc had been omitted to notice, that was fchafc while in charging the duties only 10 per cent wus added for freight, insurance, and ofcher charges ; fche real amounfc of theso charges was from 22 fco 35 per cent. Mr GILLIES would nofc have spoken on fche subject, had nofc the Government declared i their intention of standing or falling by the

resolution. He was glad they had taken up that position. They would be unworthy of the name of a Government if they did not take up such a position. They had done so, however, in a needlessly offensive manner. When it was taken into account that the duties were charged on the invoice prices with : 10 per cent, added, the 10 per cent really j meant 11 per cent ; and as the calculations were made on the invoice prices, the receipts would be really much larger than was calculated. Hr REYNOLDS said the calculations were mnde on tho invoico prices, with 10 per cent, added. Mr TRIBE would support the Government's proposal. They might reduce the taxation nexfc year. Mr HUNTER would say again, as he had soid before, that these calculations based on a few invoices were utterly unreliable. They were, for one thing, taken from Wellington only. To be worth anything they would have to be taken from other provinces, where different classes of goods were introduced, from Auckland, for instance, which had a large native trade. For some reason it was the case that the class of goods imported at Wellington were more expensive than those imported at other ports. They had heard from all sides that there was no opposition. Thero were no gentlemen on the other side of fche House prepared— or ihould he say qualified ? — to fake the place of the gentlemen afc present on the Treasury benches. (Laughter. ) If they turned out tbe Government, tbey would nofc know who fco pufc in in their places. For that reason alone, if for no other, it would be desirable to vote against fche amendment. Mr YOGEL said that though there was, of course, no opposition, ifc was a singular coincidence thafc the members of the old Opposi- | tion of last year had almost all spoken againpt the measure. This state of things, indeed, wu3 much wore dangerous to the existence of a Government than fair and open organised opposition. He would point out that, while ifc was mosfc desirable to have the tariff uniform, a uniform rote lower than 10 per cent would certainly interfere with many of the industries of the country. He wenfc through several of the duties, making calculations wifch the view of showing thafc the loss to tbe consumers on many of the articles in regard to which much declamation had been gone into would be infinitesimal. He had too much faith in Mr Johnston's good senso to suppose thafc he really regarded fchis as a 2Jper cenfc question. He saw, no doubfc, an excellent opportunity of taking the position in fche House which ifc was perhaps "very desirable he should take, and of gratifying a lauda.ble ambition. Mr JOHNSTON much regretted that the Government had made this a party question. He had nofc so intended ifc. Major ATKINSON said he wished ifc to be distinctly understood thafc he was' not giving a party vote on fche question. He intended fco support the Government. Mr O'CONOR would support the Ministerial resolution. Ho thought ib was to be regretted thafc the Government had reduced the tariff from the 15 and 12_- per cenfc system at first proposed. - The amendment was pufc and negatived, on a division, by a large majority. Ayes — Messrs Johnston, Gillies, Rolleston, J. 0. Brown, Sheehan, Swanson, White, Thomson, Karaitiana, Shephard, Stafford, Curti?, Brandon, C. Parker, Munro, Wood, Wilssn, and Clark. Noes — Messrs Reynolds, Hunter, McGlashan.Cuthbertson, McGillivray, Bluett, Mervyn, W. Kelly, Buckland, Bryce, Ormond, Bathgate, Atkinson, Fox, Richmond, Studholme, Bell, Reeves, O'Neill, Carrington, O'Rorke, Tribe, Richardson, Webb, T. Kelly, Parker, Steward, Katene, Harrison, Henderson, Yogel, O'Connor, Andrews, Jackson, Kenny, J. E. Brown, Pearce, Porafca, Taiaroa, Macandrew, Shepherd and, McLean. The original resolution was then pufc and carried The various items in the schedule were then gone into in detail. To the list of exemptions were added felfc hoods and shellac, used extensively in the hat manufacture ; also, huir sealing, curled hair, upholsterers' webbing and metal sprine.**. The bill was then reported to fche Speaker, with amendments, and was read a third time and passed. CIVIL SERVICE. Mr YOGEL brought up the report of the select committee on the Civil Service. Ifc recommended fchafc a bill should be brought is, and tlio Government would accordingly bring in a bill on the subject. Ib was therefore unnecessary to go into the question more fully at the present time The remaining business gone into was " parish business," and was of interest only in certain localities affected. Our reporter left aboufc 11 p.m. i