PARLIAMENT.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVIII, Issue 3884, 15 August 1873, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUlfqiL. Thubbday, August. 6& The Hon the Spbaibb tpotihiihair at two o'clock. * <»:;-• ' *- -. BREACH OS* •PBIVIIBaB. The Hon the SPEAKER aaid thafc theHon Mr Chamberlain had informed him that morning thafc he had been intimidated, vvitH regard to the action he might take in the Council' by one Sfcevenßon, who informed bim that if he voted against the Auckland Improvement Bill Reid would give him a leader ia the Auokland "Evening Star." The Hon Dr POLLEN said the matter. was a grave one, and the Council should^ -take * some steps in it. He requested the Hon the Speaker to instruct the Council as to the mode of proceeding. - . , '.* The Hon the SPEAKER said that the usual way of dealing in such cases was to appoint a committee, and that they bring up their report as soon as possible. ' The Hon Dr POLLEN then moved that a-comu-itfcee be. appointed, which was carried. PUBLIC IBTTSTS OPFIOB. " The Hon Mr , SEWELL moved that the account of the receipts and expenditure of thePublic Trust Office to the 30th June, laid on the table, be printed,: He said that the pablic " Trust Office cost for the half year was £400 or£soo, while the receipts, were only £9: Heonly mentioned the foregoing to shVw^hT expense incurred compared with the businesstransaoted. ,--. ' .•;"' The Hon Captain FRASER Had been informed .that a larger property within the lastfew days close to Wellington had come under - the operation df. the Publio Trusts OfficeAct. . ..*-'- Motion carried. ~ - ..." BECONSTBUCTION OF COUNCIL— ADJOU-MrE-D-----DEBATE. The Hon Dr GRACE was 0 f opinion that there were no fixed principles on which thereconstruction of the Counoil could be based The study of history had nofc sho wji .that there" was any second chamber so immeasui-ablv superior to the rest that it should serve' as a model.. In America, perhaps, tliey had- the nearest approach in the Senate to' what would suit a country like New Zealand. He did not think that there waa any present necessity lor a reconstruction of the Council, and the question was .only * brought forward through, the great desire for change which characterised the present age. Two years ago ifc was more necessary than now that the Council should be .placed on a stronger basis. Then bills in the most crude form and of great importance were being •hurried through the House, TheYdbuncil then, as at all other times,' had T behaved calmly and deliberately, and fie did not behave that any el.oted 'body WO uid have behaved better. He did not desire -any change, but if ; 8 uoh were 1 made, he- .- thought it should- be based on an eleofcoral qualification of the highest order. : He believed that a body constituted- on some suoh basis as' the Irish and Scottish Peers would be suitable for a second chamber, but,, that was not possible, as no. materials for - such ** body existed in the colony. In these daysbf failways and the great desire for publii^wbrks evinced by all portions of the colony, it was highly neceeeary that the Council should* acfc calmly, and not; be influenced . by, the public olamor. Its chief duty was tb : impose a check upon the youth and* etithuliiasm of the other House. ' One characteristic of the*. Council should be to create a publio opinion. If it were decided that the Counoil- should; be re- constructed, he thought the electors should be chosen from those who had been members of the Legislature, Superintendents of provinces, Judges of the Supreme Courfc, late officers of her Majesty's army and navy, Professors of the Universities, and- the learned professions generally. ; The gentlemen who would be elected by the? above would represent the highest intelligence,' honor, and expert enee. It Lad beep wisely 'said tbat the efficiency of a second Chamber depended upon the support it got from outside, and whioh- would rest upon some power in the State ; and suoh a body as he pointed out. would serve- these ends. If the colony was to rush year by year into borrowing money, the time would come when its credit would be*' gone. Then they would see the want' of those sound' principles which should guide all political expenditure. That would be the time for the Council to exert its power and put on the necessary restrictions ; and people would look to thf Council. Our English creditors would: also look intently on our affairs. That would be thei time when tbe Council would require outside support. He looked upon the mode for. the construction of a seoond Chamber as yet experimental. The matter was a most vital question for the Council, and he trussed that every consideration would be given it; The Hon Mr STOKE 3 intended J_q .. vote . against the motion, as he had heard no reason why the committee should be appointed then instead of any other time. It was generally admitted that as it existed it waß well, and he thought it would be best to leave well alone. There were, to his mind} only two gentlemen who seemed anxious that the Council/should be reconstructed, and had offered suggestions. The principal mover was the Hon Mr Waterhouse, who, he was sorry to say,. was not present. No flagrant instances of dereliction of duty had beeu brought forward' against 'be Council. Indeed, it had been admitted that the Council had discharged its duties zealously and honestly. He would ask — Has the results of popular election shown it to be the best ? He thought not. 'Mr Waterhouse had spoken favorably of ; the second .Chamber Ut Adelaide,' which was bas.edon: election. ,He would give the opinion of Mr Anthony Trollope to the contrary. It appeared that the adopted there wa& that the whole colony was one electoral .district, and that six members out of the eighteen who composed the. Chamber retired every four years, thus making the tenure of office twelve. The writer just .mentioned stated that very little interest was taken in the eleotion, as the whole colony, could hardly be expected to take great interest in the return of six members to. one braaoh of the legislature, and no local interest; was aroused on the matter. At the last eleotion, out of 15,773 voters only 4468 exercised *their* privilege of voting. -- It was said- tl_.at.tiie expenditure* of a few hundred poun <ft _could secure a seat, in that body, and thi oonse- ~» quence was that often illiterate and Obsouronien were elected) and disgraced thS body. He referred- to Mr Sowell's proposition that* members might be elected by tflrofvinoial Councils. He only had to mention this to raisea laugh in the Council. .Why, ifc would be making the Provincial Councils the greatestpower in the State. It was very. natural to think that they woul-Lelecttheipselvej,. Wehad enough fighting and scrambling betweenthe provinces already, hut it would be nothing, compared Xo wh_t.it would be: if-^rb-finoifd--Councils had the power of electing tl_» members of tlie Legislative Counoil. .-. '*-"- . The Hon Mr AOLAND did. not deem that any change in the. construction of the Council *• w-is at present necessary j but rather than let it bo said. .that the Council wished to shirk the consideration ot the question,»lm.woul_f "-'. vote for the committee being appointed, A"The Hon Colonel WHITMpRE 1 fretted the absence from his seat of the; Hon Mc .Waterhouse, who more than any other gentle-, man had raiß"edVth'i3*questio_r*^_re : ° , ai|3l not think that either 'the publio or the press had; condemned; the Council. „ Thlere'Y^reY no doubt, a few trifling objections against it. Ifc had been, said , that .the Council .h^d not the. power to resist > thet popular blt-andh>of the Legislature. . He ( ,i[Colpnel,. :^bV^^e^waß.. of ' _ opinion, that, ifc-; should no^Jiay.e-suon' power; V j The House . ,<>£___ Lords' coiild not 'resist^ the ; ; Commons, and ifc was thought wi«e~that- ; buoS V was the case. The. Senate **df J America waa ; y> ; the only second body |lie>?^ power to resist the mdi*e popularibranch j and^i with the exceptions of; iiiitiatiiijjrj -u'&^y>.]bilisj;;S the Senate^ was -virtually the master f_o|iiegiß^7 lation in the United States.- Y^itiVi-regar^i^^ the-'Cbunoil, p;s^at^rfiienjli^/Cbnit^iSeci.iat JqiSl ■:•..- -. . ,;;^.»_.- , ■yy;-;y-:.;fyyi^y c^£%pg-%

time being swamped by the Government nominating a sufficient number of members, he did not think that the Governor would ever consent to such a degradation of the Counoil. Isolated cases of such had, no doubt, already ocourred, and he would point to a flagrant instance of the kind last session, perpetrated by the Hon Mr Waterhouse — a gentleman who professed such interest in the independence and strength of the Council. He referred to the nomination of the two Maori members at a time when party heat was at its highest and bills of the greatest importance were before the Legislature. His blood boiled when he read of the proceeding in Hansard. The franiera of the constitution of New Zealand had doubtless in view that of the United Slates as their model. With regard to the Provincial Council electing the members of the Council, he did not think that there was much analogy with the States electing the Senate. A State, perhaps • larger than New Zealand, only elected two members, and there was a wide difference between that and a large number of members being electad by the Provincial Councils of small communities like the Provinces. He thought the best means to adopt would be to hold a conference of the Legislative Council and the House of Representatives afler the session, to decide on what action should be taken with regard to the constitution of the Council. Every one worth a sixpence in the country were looking forward to the Council when tho time came when the reckless borrowing would cease, believing that the Council was the only body which could save them. The Hon Colonel BRETT said that thero was no stronger proof forthe present construction of the Council than what had been read that very day, in which an honorable member was sought to bo influenced in his vote. . The Hon Colonel KENNI" said bia name being on the committee was opposed to his wish, as he did not believe that the appointment of the committee was necessary, but as one of the oldest members of the Council he could not well refuse to serve on ih The Hon Mr SOOTLAND said he had studied the political life -of the United States, and it seemed to him that democracy willhave its way. Since he had been, a member of the Council he observed a disposition on the part of members to treat any representations of people outside with indifference. He had seen the Counoil endeavor lo deal with money bills — a thing which should not be tolerated in a second chamber. There was , also a disposition on tLe part of hon gentlemen tp treat their poorer brethren in the colony unkindly. Gentlemen of this Council, , who possessed large estates and thousands of sheep, begrudged the poor settler his few - acres. They only wanted two classes in this country — themselves and ibe " hewers of wood and drawers of water." He had heurd numerous complaints outside regarding the Council. The Hon Mr HABT said he had seen no evidence of the assumptions of the last speaker. The nomination of members was not properly analysed. The Government, which was the representative of the people, had the power to nominate members. How then could it be said that the people had no representation in the Council. It might be . unwise to adopt a motion inferring that they » were unfit for their duties. ' The Hon Captain FRASER would have no . objection to accept the New South Wales bill on the construction of their second chamber. If 'a 'change were made he would prefer to see the people have the power to return members of the Council j and he would prefer the votes of the people to the nomination of any Government ha had yet seen in office. The Hon Mr WATERHOUSE said he did not intend replying, but that as his absence from the Council during the early part of tl c * debate had been strongly adverted upon by an bon gentleman he would rise to explain. No one had been more attentive to his duties than himself, either in being in his place in the Council or acting upon committees. Tbe motion discussed was not his motion ; his was a more decided one. The fact was that the short time he was away he was engaged on the business of the Council. He thought an opportunity had been afforded him, when, no personalities were likely to be used, of attending to some committee work and make up for arrears. He thought tbe motion not being his own would be sufficient excuse for his absence for an hour and a-balf during the session, Tbe only appointments he had made to tbe Council during the time he was Premier was that of the two Maori members. The question of the representation of the native race in the Council had been considered for a long time, and a resolution had been carried in the other House that Maori members Bhould be nominated. When he joined the Ministry he had a distinct understanding that the promises made to the native race should be immediately fulfilled. With regard to tbe charge that her had used their votes to carry 'the Railway Bill, he would inform the hon gentleman that the bill would have been carried without the two Maori votes, the majority being three. The bill, it - will be remembered, was thrown out on the '.. first day. It was a thin house, and he (Mr , Waterhouse) knew that if members had been : in their places it would have been carried. . He introduced it again, and requested tbe two *. native members not to vote on it; but they insisted that they should, saying tbat they perfectly well knew the importance of the measure, and the benefits the colony would derive from it. Tbe motion was then put, with the following result : — Ayes, 12 ; Noes, 19. The fo - lowing is the division list : — Ayes : Acland, -Baillie, Grace, Hart, Lahman, M'Lean, Pea* cock, Pollen, Rhodes, Richmond, Scotland, and Waterhouse. Noes : Bonar, Brett, Campbell, Chamberlain, Fraser, Holmes, Johnston, Kenny, Kohere, Miller, Ngatata, Paterson, Peter, Pharazyn, Sewell, Stokes, 0. J. Taylor,- Whitmore, and Wigley. Tbe Council adjourned till next sitting day at 2 p.m.