PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Wellington Independent, Volume XVIII, Issue 1865, 7 May 1863, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

j Tuesday, Mat 5, 1863. The SPEAKER took tho chair at 5 o'clock . | Present, all the members except Messrs. Spinks | and Barton. MEMORIAL. Mr CARTER presented a Memorial from 42 inhabitants of Wairarapa, requesting that two extra members be returned for that district to the Provincial Council. PETITION. Mr MoEWEN presented a petition from Henry Lynch praying that he might be indemnified for losses sustained by the destruction of his crops from fires of the natives. The COMMISSIONER OF CROWN LANDS suggested, that this was in defiance of Standing Orders. Mr DUNCAN objected, if petitions of this kind were received, there would be no end to them. Mr TAYLOR thought it might be referred to the Committee of Private Grievances. The COMMISSIONER OF CROWN LANDS said it was a direct appeal for money, and as such it was against tbe Standing Orders to be received, he had no private objection, bnt he should equally object to any other similar petition. He hoped Mr McEwen would get it so altered, that it might be referred to the Compensation Committee. Mr BORLASE paid he could not understand the objection of the Crown Lands Commissioner, and that the petition was one they could not receive, the petitioner had stated that his property was destroyed by a fire lighted by natives, if such was the case, it was to be presumed that he had a remedy by civil action. If he had said he had tried it, and the magistrates would not entertain the case, and he could get no justice, it was one thing, but he did not say that. It was monstrous for the Houbo to consider such things. If there was no remedy by law in such cases, why had he not petitioned for a civil enactment to help him ? Mr McE WEN denied being wrong in the matter. The man had applied for a remedy, and the magistrates had refused him. The petitioner had memorialized the House on the same subject in 1858, and since then he had heard nothing of the matter. Ho was not there to argue the petitioner's case, but when one of his constituency requested him to present a petition, he did so, and then left it to the House to decide whether the man was entitled to redress or not. He denied being wrong. The question was then put, when for the reception there appeared 15 ; against it 8. Read, received and ordered to be printed. j The COMMISSIONER OF CROWN LANDS laid on the table, correspondence of Major Rookes, commanding Wanganui militia, with the Government. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER laid on the table papers relative to the sale of land in Wairarapa. Ordered to be printed. CATTLE SLAUGHTERING. The COMMISSIONER OF CROWN LANDS moved — "That the Cattle Bill be referred to the select committee on the Cattle Slaughtering Bill." Agreed to. j LAND REGULATIONS. Mr BORLASE pursuant to notice, moved — •' That in the opinion of tbis Council, all public lands to amount of from 40 to iiOOO acres should be open for selection, nnder a system of leases, for 7or 14 years, with a purchasing clause.-' The hon. member commenced by observing, that when I

; he mentioned figures, he did not wish to bind the * House to accept them. 'He did not ask the House to endorse those figures, either in the amount of lnnd, or in the term of lease. In bringing forward this motion, he looked to the fact. that population was capital. People came ont here with moderate capital, and were swamped, by being compelled to purchase large freeholds. He might ask, what wag the capital ofthe country? and the I answer was. its land, and were they to hold out inducements to people, by a system of leasing the public lands with *a purchasing clause, and use their capital. By this means, they ultimately would be able to purchase. It was far better to do this than allow people to leave the country for other settlements where greater inducement was held out; there was Canterbury with her higher rate of wages, Nelson and Otago with their gold fields, and if they went in for competition for population with those settlements it must be by a liberal system of Land Regulations. Auckland had done a great deal with her Land Regulations, but he saw in the plan he pointed out advantages far beyond those offered by Auckland. He would suggest in such a plan as the one he proposed . to guard against any jobbery in the matter '• that the Province should be secured from loss by the lessees paying the first year's rent invariably in advance;" it was thus guaranteed that the parties would settle on it. He knew hundreds in the course of his practice who would willingly avail themselves ofsuch an offer, which was far better than thesystem they had hitherto adopted of leasing tho lands of absentees at high rates of interest. Even in these cases they had succeeded in clearing off the mortgages, and it was to be hoped Government would give them a similar chance in their Land Regulations. Such, inducements were far better than any Immigration scheme. He was well aware that there were objections because people thought that by making Government the creditor or landlord in this case, the tenants were under its thumb. If the Council thought that, it was easy to introduce such features iv the Regulations as •hould check the Government in the matter; he would further adopt the ordinary plan of leasing I that Government should have the power in the event of one quarter elapsing after the rent became due, to distrain or eject. He did not say this was the best plan, he submitted the principle not the detail. The hon member then alluded to tho Land on Deferred Payments Society, stating that its operation had been such that it had been the means of retaining directly or indirectly onethird of the population. He really wondered how people could differ with him. The plan was to draw people here by inducements to settle, not by any system of .Immigration. Mr WALLACE seconded the motion.

The COMMISSIONER OF CROWN LANDS said he did not think Mr Borlase had brought much new matter into his old argument, he had had the pleasure of hearing all his hon friends, argument before, and he merely took example from many members of the British. House of Commons who had a stock subject for every session. When his hon. friend said Immigration had broken down he was guilty of a gratuitous assertion not borne out by fact, (a considerable portion of the hon. member's speech here was utterly inaudible to the Reporters). In speaking of the first success of the Auckland Land regulations which his hon. friend had laid so much stress on, he could not see it, the system was that every large merchant or man of capital could go in for great quantities and say "Mr Commissioner of Crown Lands put me down for 2000 acres »" Paterfamilias might go in for 2000, and his son and heir for another 2000 ; all the small olive branches (he knew some people ; who had 12, and ho saw no reason why they [ should not havo 24), for 2000 a piece, and Materfaniilias to bring up the rear, apply, for her two thousand, making in toto 28,000 acres in one family 1 a very nice slice of country! It was somewhat strange that Mr Borlase in advocating this policy should object to the leasing of runs, he himself the (Commissioner of Crown Lands) could really see very little difference. His hon. friend had alluded to the success of the Land on Deferred 1 'ayments Society and said it was now retaining ono third of the inhabitants ; all praise to it ! Ho himself did not take such an extraordinary idea of its utility but he thought it was an advantageous affair to both lender and borrower. If however it did produce such astonishing results why not extend its operation and do away with the necessity of his friend's scheme, as all the organization he recommended was already existing. There was one point however that his hon. friend had forgotten, he (Mr B.) mnst be well aware that the territorial revenue was derived from land sales and if they endorsed the policy of hi 3 Honor which he conceived they had done, where were supplies to come from? Ht3 hon. friend had omitted this part of fhe question. If they altered their land regulations from time to time they did one thing that would tend far more to keep people away than any act Mr B had referred to. People would at once be suspicious of their unstability, and he could only add that a change in the land regulations is what he wished the House to pause before they countenanced and not to at once put all their territorial revenue away when they were not told how it was to be resupplied.

Mr BORLASE regretted that a motion of such importance should have given use to so little discussion, the affair had resolved itself into a duel between him and the Commissioner of Crown Lands. If the matter was placed before a jury he would feel pretty confident of the result of the matter for his friend had failed to answer a single argument. The only thing his hon. friend had said that he might combat was the financial part of the arrangement. His hon. friend had said tte Auckland Land Regulation had not answered No ! they had not because Paterfamilias and his large family (of wbom his hon. friend had Jspoken so feelingly), could apply for any amount, and it did not foilow that they were bound to occupy; here he made the stringent proviso that the rent must bo prepaid and the laud occupied. He never wished to give the land away. Ho thought they had come quite low enough when they got to ss. per acre. His hon. friend had observed that people with 2000 acres ' having no bona fide capital might apply for large blocks, by these inducements. He did not see how people with no capital could pay the rent. Look at the system of ds. per acre compelling runholdera to buy their lands, the system was iniquitous. He saw 62,000 acres applied for at ss. and not an acre surveyed ! the present system locked up the lands, and there was where the evil existed* When he spoke ofthe Land on Deferred Paymeuts Society, ho made a mistake in saying one third of the inhabitants ofthe Province was retained by it, he meant of the District. He himsel.feame here to live and die; in this country and he hoped toseehts children settled in it ; he did not wish to see the goose killed that laid the golden egg, but to see the lands reserved as a means of founding an annual income. If his hon friend Mr Stokes proposed to reserve the land through which tho projected railway might pass, at £2 per acre, why could not they reserve the public lands uutil the price rose. The House divided on the motion, when it was lost by sto 16 ; Messrs Borlase, Crawford. Buck, j Wallace and Dransfield, voting in the minority. Capt SMITH moved—" For leave to bring in a Bill to amend tho 'Fencing Act, Session 1., No. 18.'" He moved certain amendments shewing that a three railed fence with a cap of one rail was not a sufficient fence, Some people kept cows that would be so absurd as to jump over these fences, pigs and sheep would scramble through them, and he would like the Clause to be altered, making the fence higher and closer, to be legal. Again in another clause we had a Btream 2 chains wide as a fence. He knew numbers of streams that any of these animals could get through with impunity. Ho observed that manuka fences wattled with underwood were excluded, he thought furze ought to bo excluded likewise, it was a fearfully dangerous fence incase of fire, and he called the attention of the House to the fact of such a fence existing in thje.rear of the Government buildings. He moved for leave to introduce those amendments. Mr BORLASE objected to this Bill because -it would do away in the eye of the law with about £100,000 worth of fencing. The Bill had already been brought before the notice ofthe Council and rejected. Regarding gorse fences they were not more dangerous than a close totara fence, and. a fire stick would bum one as soon as the other. The House divided, ayes 15, noes 6. BiU received, read a first time, and ordered to bo

printed, to be read a second time on Thursday. Mr CARTER moved — " For leave to bring in a Bill to increase the number of Representatives, in the Wairarapa District, for the Provincial Council, from two to four. He remarked that a petition had been presented on this subject from the Wairarapa and another was on the way in the sentiment of which he entirely concurred,, He had tried last session to bring in a Bill on the matter of re-apportioning the representatives of the House and on the understanding, that the House would take action in the matter had withdrawn it. His constituency blamed him for not pushing the Bill. By proper representation according to population, Wairarapa ought to have o-J members, but he did not ask for more than four, three for Wairarapa proper, and one for the East Coast. In Wellington the representation was 1 member for o7 electors, in the Hutt 1 for 88, in Porirua District 1 for 93, in Wanganui and Rangitikei I for 97 and in Wairarapa 1 for 177. He thought they ought in Wairarapa to have better representation.

Mr WATT begged to remind Mr Carter, that the House had resolved last session to take no action in ihe matter until a general election. He agreed that though increasing the representation in the Country Districts was desirable, yet the town wanted decreasing. In his distiict they had ' difficulty in getting members at all. He agreed with his friend, that Wairarapa was under represented ; but he cautioned the House against increasing the representation, seeing that no practical benefit had arisen from it before. After a few remarks from the Crown Lands Commissioner the debate was adjourned, and the House proceeded to discuss. TUB DRAINAGE BILL. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR went carefully over the clauses of the Bill seriatim, and . moved the first reading, which after an objection fi-om Mr Carter oa to the Bill being somewhat onesided, and not compelling a man to pay for such ! works as his neighbour might carry out in drain- ; ing that benefitted him. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR replied, moved second reading, and present Committal. House went into Committee, on Drainage Bill, reported with amendments. WAIBARAPA BACE OOURSE. This Bill passed second reading, reported with amendments, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow, WAIBARAPA REPRESENTATION, The debate was resumed. Mr WALLACE very curtly observed that he was well aware there was a Minute passed last session to the effect that the House would take some steps in the matter. Ho did not agree with the Commissioner of Crown Lands that they were over represented, and that as out* institutions increased, representation should keep pace with thera. He thought if there was a fresh election there would be geod competition for seats. Dr ALLISON did not think there would be competition in country districts. It was all very well where in Wellington people could do business during the day and sit at night, it was probably amusing work, but in Wanganui they had great difficulty in getting members, and Rangitikei could not get any local member at all. He fancied it every 67 electors had a member it was enough, and if all the constituency came into that House it could scarcely be worse. Mr TAYLOB urged on the House that their consistency was at stake, and they wero not justified in rescinding the determination of last Bession. When they readjusted the representation of the whole Province would be the time to consider Mr Carter's motion. Mr HUNTER hoped Mr Carter would withdraw. The House was pledged to a certain policy last session. Property he considered tho base of | representation, and he held to that doctrine. If i Mr Carter could have taxed the town members with injustice to thecountry he (Ali* Hunter) should havethought more of his motion. MrHEWETT said he did not agree with Mr Hjnfer. Population was the only guage. If property was a guage the country must gain over the town, and as property would increase, every five , years they would have to re-adjust the representa. tion. In England towns were not as strongly represented as the country. Ho did not believe in in r creasing the members, as he felt certain in Wanganui, at any rate a number of uneducated men who could hardly write their own names, and not read them when they had written them, would be found in that House. He would further remark that they had too often been asked this session to stultify themselves by revoking the resolutions of last session. After a fow remarks from Mr STOKES, Mr CARTER briefly replied, refusing to withdraw the Bill. The following was the result :-~ Ares 6.— Crown Land Commissioner, Carter, Smith, Fawcett, Wallace, aud Buck. Nobs 10. — Stokes, Hunter, Hewett,' Allison, Watt, Peake, Johnston, Taylor, McEwen, and De Castro. PROMISSORY NOTES. M** CARTER moved— "Thata select commit tee be appointed to take into consideration, and to investigate the present and past oiroumstances connected with the Immigrants' unpaid Promissory Not.s; and report to this Council as to the best means of securing the Province from great pecuniary loss without pressing for payment of the same with undue severity; with power to call for persons and papers; such, committee to consist of Messrs Hunter, Borlase, Allen, Taylor, Hewett, and the Mover. Mr WATT seconded the motion. The arguments used throughout were precisely what were used in the debate on Mr Borlase's motion on Friday — which, pressedjasour columns are, ferbids us to enter into. The motion was ultimately carried without a division, and the House rose at half-past nine.