AUCKLAND.

Wellington Independent, Volume IX, Issue 917, 26 July 1854, Page 4

AUCKLAND.

Elective- Uppicr CiiAJinsn

Mr. St.'lliil said, —Sir, since coining down to the Council to-day, it has been siigg'ecti'd to me-by two hon. members, whether it would not be desirable,, under the present circumstances of the other house,- and the state of tbe question in, that House, that tbe motion, before the Council should be postponed for a lime. lam quite willing, anil am prepared lo defer to the wish at'the Council, anil if it be thought expedient to adjourn this motion for a Week or ten days, I shall be happy lo accede to such wish. I shall be glad tv know the course which maybe desirsd to bendopted in this respect. The Speaker—The only course open'.to-the hon. mover is to proceed with his motion.; or, under the Rides of tlie'Council, ft will become a'lapsed ''.question.' ' Mr. St; Hill—Then, Sir, if that is the alter-' native, I shall at once proceed. I have deemed

it. necessary before the Council enters upon the consideration of those various questions which must soon claim,its attention, to hritig. under its notice ihe.suliject of the .motion which is on this day's; pii'per.'l '.have taken .'this course after a ciirei'iii perusal'of the address of his Excellency the -'Officer administering '''tiie Govern ment, j'and under a conviction'that iler Majesty and Piiiliament will cqnceile any alteration iii the constitution of this council ;-which, iii, the words of the address "on deliberate-considera-tion rnuy-.be found to be needful tor giving free scope'to its dcvc.lope'uicnt." I confess, Sir, that I approach this question .w'ith.-gVent diffidence,' and in distrust of my own powers to do that justice to tlie subject which its.'importance demands. I should have preferred seeing it in the hands of s'otne hon. member more competent to the. task of laying open, more distinctly and clearly than I can accomplish, that blemish in the Constitution Act .which: I trust this council will lend its aiii to remove.', I (lo not think it necessary, Sir, nrir'is it"my intention, to enter upon the history of the several' Legislative Chambers which have existed in this colony since its foundation ; nor of the uneasiness of the, public mind upon the nature of their constitution, that ground has so often been gone over within a recent period, it would be a waste of time.fhr'tlier to dwell upon it.'. But' this I will'say, that after the most lineqiiivoc.'ible demonstrations of dissent from tiie principles uprin. which-those legislative bodiea'wore based, and whicli dissent had been from that time been [recorded.by the colonists of New Zealand, it is to be regretted that,any clement wliaUver.of thoee principles should have been infused into the 'Constitution Act, Ii is true that in the chiiise following the one ' to which my objections refer, nbiiiiut'cism is divested of' its most repugnant feature by the' enactment which provides thnt every member shall hold his seat for life; thn.-s relieving him from the imputation ov suspicion of .being under government influence. Still the principles remain unchanged, noininecistn, alt hough shorn of its original deformity, stares you in the 'face.' It is clothed in : a different garb, yet there it exists. It ■muii.ty I conceive, Sir, be ' obvious 'that unless this'council is constituted upon siich a principle as to ensure the respect of the other house, as well as of the majority of the 'community, it will be in vain to bring to, the conaiiUralion ot the numerous important measures which must at this period be deliberated upon, that weight and influence whicli a legislative body should inherently possess. Actuated by this feeling, deeply■'reflecting tipmi the responsibility of our existing position, aud looking.it the composition of .the other house, where we see congregated talent of a very high order, i luivs at. once arrived at the conclusion that no effort of this,.council,.constituted as it nor; is, can impress the public iiiiiul with its utility as a C('"iiii[rolliiig legislative power. There may be wisdom, • judgment, 'position, character, "ami every oilier reqii!silc''qii.-ihneii:ion in all its members. Nevertheless, tlie element of nominci'ism of which it is composed, will render its constitution distasteful to the intelligent and thinking part of the community, and nullify its utmost endeavour to effect or carry out any amount'of good. I'repeat, Sir,'that it will, in my'mind, he impossible to discharge in a satisfactory'manner the'responsible duty required at--our 'hands, wiiile Ibis council retains its present nominated form.. Having therefore arrived at this conclusion,-1 have availed myself of, the,earliest period .of expressing in this chamber my opinion upon the siilijcct, and at moving (lie council to some 'immediate action. It might.,. Sir,[be thought Unit I am 'exhibiting ah ungrateful spint'in liikingtbus early the initiative iv my olijection to the form iit the Imperial Act u'luoh has elevated me to a seat in this council. - If such a suggestion could ,f[or a moment influence me, I would at. once recede from the course I am now. pursuing. But although, Sir, lain hot insensible'to' tlie cq'mphmeiit paid me Ity Sir George Grey'ia this elevation, whether thai compliment was"jiurpbs'ed'm'e as one of the original settlers (n this colony,'or as an old, and I trust a faithful servnnt.of the government, I cannot sit in this council without recording my conviction of the unsoundness of its constitution, while it is aiy

mc ' desire to impress upon hon. members the'wisrir-; dom, the 'diesii-abilify, the necessity, of such a r^. : j change in" that constitution, as will prolines mi the j invigorating and a healthy action in the llouse ich of Representative?. ''Should ; I sucteeil to-day a ; | iii obtaining an affirmation of the principle I L,er am atlybeatiny, ,I'silall follow up my motion by of , another, for a-.cpm'm.htee to., co-operate—with . - the consent of the other house'— with Vsimilar >in committee of that house—to' consider, aiid re-' port upoli the inbst effectual mode of electing 1(J| ; members to the Legislative Council. Af'er £:( having given mv best consideration to this part of of the subject, I am" inclined to believe tliat'the rs. erection of a speeificaitd distinct constituency cm for the election of numbers of the Legislative an Council, is the wisest measure to be adopted to n.w give that chamber character,' respect, and s.tany* bility. .The two ingredients for" the formation mo of such a constituency I - take to, be education 'J*,' and property. -Now, as respects the first, I ' ■ conceive no difference of opinion can arise; , I ■ but I have very considerable doubts as to the ~'), latter. At all events, I think it would be nei o cessary to guard this-'rpmlifieatiori''' with great ni rigi'lness, inasmuch as the facility of acquiring so property at this moment, differs materially from that which -up to a recent date has prevailed. iat It'wriuld nor. only be 'desirable but just, that '■*& property-acquired by mental exertion, by coml '> merciiil enterprise, by scientific attainments, by 01 mechanical'skill, orliy 'diligence, care, and in-. ;'' dtis-lry, should have its influence in acti'nstitujj c ency'sneh it's, t haye.sugg'e'steil.: 'But this is a , a branch of tiie subject wliich requires the most 1 10 careful deliberation and perfect ! arrangement. i„l The constituency that'j.would suggest, should, h's I think: consist of members o"f the universities pc of Great-Britain Riui.lreland, anilof colleges in es connexion with any of those universities ; momhers, if naturalized, of foreign universities; int-mbera of the House of : Rspresciitatives and of. the Provincial Councils; members of professions; ministers of religion.; , beads of .departments under the local government; Justices of the. Peace ; lamfed proprietors and merchants —each, under rertnin".qualification*, hereafter to.be'dcfined. - The Justices of the Peace, to be " limited to those only whose com mi scions hear ° date antecedent to the appointment of the ofjicpr under -.whose .government, any vacancy or "' vacancies may take .place. The reason of the s ] necessity of this limitation, I think, will be obvious to all. However, a committee won't! more properly arrange these details hereafter. [ I have merely given. my general.ideas upon the ■■'. matter. .'I ai perfectly ..as I have sketched my 1 views and, opinions upon the subject now under '; consideration, [ trust I have, said enough to il- ' Instrate :to the Council the .necessity of an aiilen(.hlieni..in its constitution. 1 am sorne'what confident that no valid argument can.be. '■ urged.ilvsupport of its ; existence in its present form, ;,and I am therefore led to hope that hon. _. members will lend their assistance to obtain the j amendment in the Constitution Act of that .. clause, which, in my opinion, is one of if* many defectii. Mr. St. flill concluded'by moving,— " Thar, an address" be" pfe'setffe'd to the Officer • Administering ihe Government, embodying the a opinion of this Council that it in expedient that that part of clause 33 of the Constitution Act which affects the existing Constitution of'-the j r Legislative Council should be amended, so as < to accord and harmonise with the spirit and in- l ■ tendon of those ,provisions of : that Act as re- .I speets the election of Members of the House of I Representatives, and praying that his-Excel- I leucy may be pleased to adopt such'measures' i ai niay', with''as' little delay as' practicable, re ' i n.edv thedefoet referred to." ; "•-'':.i ..Mr. i5eH-.siii.il,-r-Sir, in rising to second the fmotion of my honourable friend, I confess I i should have perhaps felt some einbarrasment, iron account of the .manner in which it is worded, ti if my honorable friend hud not so clearly ex- « plained the object with Which be introduced it.' 'v Sir, upon the-principle wliich-toy honourable i friepd desires to submit to the house, lean feel t neither euibni-rnsmcnt nor doubt: and although t if he.had done me the honour to consult."with a me.as to the terms of his motion, I should have " "preferred, to adopt words that might hare more v ■ distinctly'enunciated that principle, yet after tlie f explanation he has made, I can have no heatta- n tion in givin; him triy cordial 'support. Before c proceeding further, however, I may be permit-' o ted to notice, since jny honourable'; friend has c done so, the personal part of the subject, and t to say why it is that I feel, more free than per- b haps my honourable friend may have done, in o supporting the motion now before the house, s It will be iv the 'recollection (if lion, members,' (1 that Sir George Grey did not do me the honour t 'of summoning me to the Legislative Council." a I was called here by his Excellency .the Officer t now Administering the Government, in a man- n ncr so kind nnd considerate, that I aha!! ever l feel grateful for it. But I was summoned with, v out the offer of a .scat having been made to raY, b and I obeyed the call,'not from any .personal o views, but for public objects alone. And what- ti ever might have b: en the reply I should have <■'- given, if Ida tSxccilcnoy -had been pleased to \ tuakfl me-an offer of a sent before issuing the 3 cii.maiiss.iou in,my name, I felt bound to res- a pond nt once to his Excellency's wishes, by ti coming up, at a few days' notice, ro take my o place in this house. Sir, the house will agree h with mo, that these circumstances Uave me n more free than I should ■ probably have other- b -.vise felt, to support a motion, the object of \ which is to do away with the very groundwork (.i on which the Legislative Council is constituted, n In stating sny reason? for supporting it, I would h beg leave to refer tb the eirciimmaiiue, that dif. n feront opinions exist to the necessity of any [ second chamber nt nil in a Legislature. For ti b:y part, I am inclined to think that if the po- d ptilaiion of New Zealand were all of the iiuro- n psan r?.£e, I should prefer the legislation of the c country to be carried on by one .chamber, nro- r vidcii idways ihat the principle of Ministerial w Responsibility, in tho exercise of executive-.mil t. legislative functions, were fully carried one by tl Government, lor as the end'and aim of 'all c good Government is tb secure the happiness and d well-bring of-a people; and as in a coram unity tl of thirty thousand souls, possessed of free itisti- n unions anil practical self-government; few sen- d ou'x questions of .difference could arise as to the h mode of gaining the desired end, a second s! chamber might be-f-iiind only a cumbrous addi- Ii Hon to a-machinery which would act. harmoni- g ou'ly and successfully without il. '.Hut in the h circumstances of (his colony, with the fact be .v, fore us that a majority of tbe Queen's subjects , s i I is of another race, which at present is, and d must for sometime remain, wholly unrepre- t.i sented in the popular chamber, I confess I ace I strong grounds for establishing a second legis- p lat.ive body, in which the acts of the represeuta- ti fives ivoiihi eoiue under review, and where the rt bi'iiefit of second thought would he had upon -vmany subjects more or less' directly rifFectmg ; a, the interests of the large number who arc u;i- ! ,si represented iii the elections. Sir, in saying: this,' |> I desire most earnestly to -guard myself from ,o: being supposed to concur in an opiniun I have at often heard, that injustice would be done to the .p, natives hy those whom tlie settlers return to the v po'prtlur-hftusc'of'Assembly. Along ncqunint-; .pi qucc with the natives in various parts of the ai

country, a knowledge of .their ..language awl customs, and intercourse-with th<Mi on public affairs, have convinced me that they themselves entertain no sort of fear that injustice would be deliberately done them by the settlors; nnd the present existence of friendly feelings between the races, at a time when so much power lias been thrown into the' hands of the Europeans, is nn earnest of those more cordial relations which will every day tend'only further to 'cement and "perpetuate. At the same time, those of us who have-most-mixed with the natives, and whose attention is mote especially turned to their welfare cannot, but recognise in the existence of a second chamber that gum ant*e for n thoughtful review of measures in the other house which in 'V assist in securing the attachment *nd confidence of the race in the institutions now equally open to them as to ns. Then, if sicotid thoughts sire [admittedly an advantage in our legislation, bow can they best be gotat'in' a colony'like 'this;? And here. Sir, I must beg the house altogether to discard iilcas arising out of the constitution of the -'House of Lords as a second chamber ac home. Sir, there is and 1 can be no analogy between that august assembly and ours, notwithstanding the fact that the existence of both may he assumed to be founded on the necessity of reviewing acts of the popular houses.' It would be the height of absurdity to compare the two. The people of .England are attached to the House of Lords, because there are enshrined the memories of splendid military achievements, of the noble efforts of genius, and of every thing that is associated whh the glory and renovyn of the country. There the liitdtop* of tbe church nnd the judges of the land are seated with the scions of tbe proudest, tha most powerful, and the most illustrious aristocracy in tbe world. And the mass of the people feel seeurein knowing that the body which reconsiders the acts of their representatives in the Coti-imons, contain the matured views of-the".most eminent men in the kingdom, great numbers of whom have already served a long apprenticeship to political life iv tbe lower house. Sir, liioking'eve'B to colonies,.l am not qiiite sure that with a ..very large'population,'' containing men of wealth, edur.-uiou, ami leisure, a nominated chamber "would be the ; .best. You may build up in time those distinctions in men and society which shall reconcile colonists to the principle of nomin.eeism, anil enable the institution to rest .where alone it can rest with safely and utility—on tbe respect and,confidence of the people. Due in so small and scattered a 'community as ours, is it,wise or expedient, after the utimistakeable expression of public opinion during the iast ten years, to found au institution which, if it does nofexeite the active contempt of the people, suffers from their indifference and disregard ?' Sir, I hold that in order to given second 'chamber like ovirs a"' chance of doing real good, it is not enough to hope for public confidence in it at some future time; we shall ba powerless for any useful end, unless we can feel assured that we commence.our proceedings with thj cordial trust'of our fellow-colonist's. Now, can we sincerely say ive possess that trust? Will thi .delibrations of this Council have "any. effect on. the country, or .influence 'public opinion? I fear "not. .. I fear, on the contrary, that if-we go-hand in hand with the house of Representatives, we shall gain credit, for no enlightenment or ability of our own ; but if we throw "out their msasi'ires, we : shall he treated as. factious obstructives.■■' U I am right, it is a political'blunder to have set an institution at work, which at tbe threshold of .its existence, can neither command respect nor attachment, and must submit to be treated with indifference, if. not with w'.-rae feelings'." 'Above all, it is a poliricnLb'iiiid-ov to call into existence an institution the members of which.' cannot even receive social distinction from it, and from which the best men in the country—l s:iy it not impertinently, but in apolitical sense—will continue to keep aloof. I tiiny be wrong, but I fear thatnonebf ns can lay our hands on our hearts and say .that we can expect, to do active good here miich I?-ss satisfy that i-riost legitimate ambition which leads men hi ali countries to seek and prize, distinction in public.life.' But-Sir, there are serioi'is objections to the very.--constitution of this bouse, in smother light. .If the object of it he to introduce a conservative element into our institutions, as a chock upon the democratic tendencies of tho other house, that object can be tit any time frustrated, by the introduction of any number of new members at the pleasure of the Governor for the time being.. The deliberations.of the house, and the decisions of the majority! tai'.y at any moment be set aside, aiid without any limit,'tis the number of which tbe Legislative Council-may he composed is not fixed by the Constitution Act. It is true that to-,day there are .instructions to the Governor hot to siiinmon mqec than fifteen ihcrabets; but who knows how long they will last, or what pressure in ay riot by and by be brought to bear upon ns ? Then, again, let us look at this, limit of fifteen, even supposing it is.less Why, at a iime-vvhea the colony only numbers 30.000 Europeans, just at a time when the innnguraiidn of free institutions may aud will tempt.thousands to these shore's, and numbers of our countrymen of superior rank and intelligence to join us, you have-filled up with; life appointments the very places which ought to ho objects of-ambition-to such new comers. You arc in ibis dilemma,—if more members are (.o be uiade, you. may b.-i swamped at any >tiiotnent; if the 'present limit be maintained, you have tinown away your choice out of tlie-bftst men >vho may bereafrer come to the country, f. contend it h no real -'contradiction of terms, to -find fault with tho .power of increasing t'indcfiuucly our numbers, and to :find fault .also with, the limit we have. I say, that in either C'.ise. the object of establishing a sound conservative element in the stale in defeated. Sir, it will he said i,hnr, people .who 1 find fiiult an f.xistiug ii-.si.iui'ion are bound to propose something else in its stcjtd. Sir, Ido not-quits'con-cur in that proposition; for while I have no doubt whatever as to ihe impolicy of continuing the present constitution'of,, ibis .chamber, Ido not feel competent to solve the 'doubts'.and difficulties in -any scheme for its reform. ' Mv honourable friend who proposes the; motion sketched bis views on'the subject of the upper house elective:; and although' I do not entirely go with him, lam quite sure that nn elective house would-have-a much better chance than wo can litre of receiving the confidence and support of .the people; and [-do not feel any dntibt, that with careful and earnest tion, ths right Conclusion would be nrri«ed at. It seems to me essential, however, that any plan for an elective njiperchimbcr should contain guarantees for its permanence,.and should not bo subject to the disturbing influences, of a general election, '[ remember among the iiany schemes that have occupied the attention of statesmen' at- home ori the subject, one which I believe originated with Sir William Molcswortb, one of-her Majesty's present ministers. 'If I am not mistaken/Sir William Molesworth proposed that a cumin proportion of the elective upper'house, I think one fourth,: should retire periodically, and liereplaoetl by fresh elections ; <md that proposal was supported by tnnnv

valuable arguments. But it appears to me that ills permanence of the chamber would be sufficiently ensured by determining that members ■should hold their seats for' the same term of yeil's, dating from their-election; thus, if the proposed duration of office wera ten years, and as vacancies .occurred members were each chosen for ten years forward, the existence'of the house would be-perpetuated, and it would be free from those influences which v general election,would, be sure to have upon. Its dslibemtions, as thV'timc for 'that elcetisii drew near. However, Sir, .I feel I must' not he 'drawing myself into further ciiseiiseion at this stage; indeed. I should apologine to the bouse for travelling somewhat out of the course fairly open to me by the motioaof my hon. friend. I will content myself therefore by repeating:, that whatever might he the result of calm and earnest enquiry, I have no fear such a plan wotiltl be framed as would cntiila the upper chamber formed under it to that which we lack, ths confidence and respect of' the colonists ; nml it is in :th'nt.-feeling that I have given my support to my honourable friend. And if, as I fear. ive.sliK.il, we fail to receive, the aisetit of the house to the principle of the resolution, we shall still feel that we have been right in the view we have taken of it, and we shall continue to believe that, if not now, then sooner or later, tfes opinion of the Council, as wall as of the country, will be with us, and that it will be admitted that the spirit of the constitution can alone be fulfilled, and our deliberations be of u».e, when the present''semb'n.ice shall be' 6ac a reality, and when the indifference) if not dislike oft.be public ihali be exchanged for a cordial and active interest in our proceeding*. _ Major Lloyd said that he was unable to give his '.'support- to the motion, fie believed that the existence of a Nominated Brunch of the General Assembly might in many .instances prove beneficial to the interests of the country, inasmuch as .the members, not being fettered by pledges previously givin to a constituency, would he in a position to judge-anil-act-more freely in legislating upon ("he questions which came before them. Although it was liU&ly tliat he would shortly go to England, yet be could not now refrain, as a member of that Council, from declaring his opinion on-tbis subject. He regarded' the members as sitting there in the position of trustees of the public good, invested with-a life-interest; and he should be sorry if an impression ever prevailed that -they would fail tcdo their duty. Mr. Wbitaker regretted that 'he 'could not support the motion before Council. Even if he agreed in the principle, he could not assent to the tevms in which the -resolution was couched. A simple resolution to the effect that ie-is desirable that the constitution of this Council should be changed, would not ba open to the sevipus objections which he entertained to the terms of the honourable mover's proposition as stated in the resolution—objections which appeared 'to him 'fatal to its adoption by the Council, lie could'hot agree in any part of the honourable member's resolution—b.nt there was one question remaining on which, to avoid misunderstanding, he wished to say a few words. It was this—Whether n legislative Council nominated by the Crown or elected by a proper constituency was best adapted to tlie present circumstanctrs of New ■Zealand ? lie would not unnecessarily take up tlie time of the Council in discussing at any ,'length this important question which was not how fairly before it; but he would say that, to perform satisfactorilythe functions Which tbe Legislative Council was intended to discharge, it should be a body having the respect and confidence of the people"; it should be a Couueil, in which seats should be always acceptable to those best fitted to fill them, and-it should have sufficient strength not to be too readily overawed by popular clamour. In the present state of New Zealand it was his opinion that these requirements coald best be secured by election. He regretted that it was so. The cause was to be traced to the manner in which the power of nomination had been (leak with under the old charter, If it should be requisite, be should, he belteyed, be able to show, on a suitable occasion, that the retention by the Governor, in 'defiance of public opinion, of Nominee Councils, after a power of introducing a system of representation had been conferred upon him—that the manner in which the power of nomination bad been exercised, and the purposes for which ihe influence of the Governor in such Councils had been used, had so completely shaken public confidence in nomination, that it was not surprising that it should be looked upon in all cases with distrust and suspicion, even where it min-iit otherwise have been adopted with advantage. Institutions suitable and .satisfactory "lo British subjects in every part of the world were nnsnit'cd and iins'itisfactury here.' The cause could readily be shown. It was not the fault of tbe people that institutions peculiarly British were not acceptable to them—the blame rested with the rulers. When the opportunity presented itself he should be prepared to follow out his views ; but for the reasons he had given, he should vote against the motion now before the Council.

Mr. St. Mill said—From what has fallen from the hon. gentleman who has just sat. down, I rev joiee to find that he is not opposed to the substance.of tiie motion, but merely to the form! in which it has been presented to the Council. It appears to me that there arc two or three modes by Which the.Council may represent its wishes and opinions with reference to any de-i sirable change in.the existing, law. 1 W'e:iniplit! memorialise Parliament'to enact any amend-' ment that might be thought expedient; or we, might bring in a Bill into this Council with that object. But ; of- course if that Bill yrerc to 'pass the.Assembly, it must be transmitted bopao for approval. • The other mode that might, I think, be pursued, is hy ah address to the Officer Administering-the Government, reqiiestmg the adoption of the course prescribed: by the 55t,h clause of the Imperial Act. I have taken this course for .two reasons. Firstly, because I think it at the present moment, and under existing circumstances, more respectful to his .Excellency; and secondly, because it seems to mo, if I read the Act correctly, more consistent with its general provisions that.any proposed alteration therein should emanate from, or he recommended by, the Executive., As respects the allusions made by another lion, gentleman to the House of Lords,-ivhicli leads to the inference 1 that this Council, as a-Nomi-nated Chamber, assimilates to" the Upper House in Britain,l need hnrdlycoramerit upon it. The idea to me is simply ridiculous. We might as well compare the pigmy with the giant. When generations shall have passed : away in New Zealand—when her inhabitants shall have gained a name in arts, iv arms, in commerce, ia'manufactures, or in any other honourable pursuit—then, and not-till then, may tbe analogy arise. From'the general silence of honourable members'.upon tlie subject ; before the Council,! I cannot fail to perceive that, my honourable' friend who seconded !the| motion will, with myself, be its sole supporters. Nevertheless I dd'uot despair b'tttthatj oh a

future occasion i -ivlien "this'siibje6trn'wi v aagain' n bo brought 'under, the .consideration 0 f- the Council, that the -views of honourable'gentle* men will have undcrgiine.aclmhggjwitlvrespect to its, present constituted-form.""'' '" '

The motion was put and negatived, only the mover and sscbiider voting for it. '". • " >