MINISTER’S DEFENCE

Wanganui Chronicle, Volume 77, Issue 157, 5 July 1934, Page 6

MINISTER’S DEFENCE

STOCK PURCHASES NATIVE DEPARTMENT ANSWERS TO CRITICISM COMMISSION’S INQUIRY ( Per Press Association ). WELLINGTON, July 4. Criticism regarding stock and land purchases in connection with Maori land development schemes was answered by the Native Minister (Sir Apirana Ngata) in the course of evidence before the Native Commission to-day. Mr. Justice Smith presided, and associated with him were the Hon. J. Alexander and Messrs. D. G. Johnston and W. L. Nelson. Mr. R. H. Quilliam is under instructions from the Government to assist the Commission, and Mr. G. P. Finlay is appearing for the Native race. Regarding the Wilson stock purchases the Minister said that the purchase of stock for the schemes was to him the subject of considerable concern. The first purchase consisted of heifers bought by Mr. Wright, of which rhe Commission had heard much. Of that line, some went to the Motatua base farm and were the subject of criticism by Mr. M. R. Finlay in his evidence at Whangarei; some went to Mr. Rutledge at Ruatoki, and earned his condemnation at Rotorua. Te Puea. among others, complained of them. ‘‘l came to the conclusion/’ said the Minister, 4 ‘that it would be unwise to entrust the purchasing of stock to Mr. Wright any further in this way. The alternative course of engaging the stock companies to purchase as agents for the department seemed to be equally objectionable. There was always the danger that they would saddle the schemes with stock which others on rhe spot would not buy. Equally, there is always a tendency for such stock company to pass in the stock of its own clients, however inferior, to stock of the same description offering from clients of other companies. This is where Mr. D. D. Wilson occupied a favourable position. He was a good judge of stock, knew the stock resources of the Waikato well, and was always on the spot when- stock was offered for sale.” The Minister said that he arranged with Wilson to quote him suitable cattle upon request, and by way of establishing a check on his quotations he instructed Mr. Shepherd to keep himself acquainted with stock prices in the Waikato. The Minister added that he always kept himself as well informed as possible of market prices. Line of Heifers For a considerable time the arrangement with Wilson operated very satisfactorily. Good stock was being obtained at reasonable prices, having regard to rnaiket conditions. “My expeiience of him led me to have a good ueal of confidence in Wilson,” the Minister continued. “Finally, however, he sold us one line of some 20C heifers which I thought too high in price. 1 determined to cease dealing with him. This was before any Audit complaint concerning Wilson had come to my knowledge. “bo far as ± can recollect, 1 was never told that Findlay said he could buy the type of bulls he wanted at £IU 10s. When Findlay wired that th( bulls could not be bought in the north, 1 realised that there was considerabjt need for urgency in the making of the purchase. 1 telephoned to Wilson, gave mm a description of the bulls which were requiied, and asked him tc give me a quotation. He quoted £K 15s. The price seemed to Oq reason-a-ble, as it coincided with the amount allowed in the ledger. Besides, it was much oelow the puces we had previously paid, amongst others, to the Agricultural Department. 1 therefore authorised the purchase. “That Wilson nought at £lO 10s oi thereabouts and sola to the department at £l5 15s 1 did not know’ until the Audit drew attention to the fact. This was a breach of the spirit of the arrangement 1 had made with Wilsc-n lor he was to get market price and no more. iheie being no sale of bulls by auction about the date or purchase and buil prices being conditioned by >o many circumstances not applicable io other stock, there was no way in which Wilson’s price could be checked. Whilst most of the purchases from Wilson were advantageous to the department both in respect of quality and price, as the entire absence oi complaint except as to the partieulai lines referred to by Audit conclusively indicates, 1 feel constrained to agiec in the light of later knowledge tnai it was unwise to purchase stocK from him under the arrangement upon which he worked. “From what 1 have since learned it seems clear that Wilson was affoided, in respect of stud stuck, ai opportunity to inilate his prices, whict he did not fail to seize. .Situated a; 1 was, however, when 1 was dealing with Wilson, the arrangement seemet to me to be distinctly advantageous it that it offered the best opportunity oi acquiring well-chosen stock at marke rates. ” The Iles Purchase In reference to the Iles purchase tho Minister said that he knew noth ing of this transaction more than th< file disclosed. The financial position o: the Waiariki Board at that time wa: >ound, and not the subject of an; anxiety so far as he or the depart ment was concerned. At the saw time, it was generally known tha Tihiotonga was causing the boar< anxiety Dy reason of the bush sickn.es which existed there. He knew iron early in 1930 that the board was look mg fcr healthy country as a chang for the Tihiotonga stock. “The first I knew of the lies pui chase specifically was when Wngh wired me when I was at Opunake i the Kaipara. Judge Holland also wire me at the same time concerning th proposed purchase. I was later taikin. to Mr. Tai Mitchell on other matters and so gave him the message for Judg Holland, which is on record. Any cor sent was at that time regarded a little more than formal, having regar to the financial position and genera circumstances of the Waiariki Boarc I could really do no other than cor sent, under the circumstances, so lon as Judge Holland was satisfied th price was reasonable and the purchat necessary.”

“Rubber Stamp Minister.” The Minister went on to refer to changes brought about following the legislation of These changes, he said, did not arise out of audit complaints. The National Expenditure Commission which, in regard to Native Affairs, had the services of a special committee of investigation, recommended the transference of control of certain activities under the Native Department to the Native Land Settlement. Board. That was agreed to by Cabinet. He did not disguise that that was a mistake. The Treasury, Audit and Crown LawOffice thought the only way to make a real job of it and to keep the Minister’s fingers off the job was to go through the Native Land Act and see that every possible power that was vested in the Minister was transferred to the board. They made a thorough job of it. The only thing left now for the Native Minister to sign was approval of recommendations under the Mortgagors’ Relief-National Expenditure Act. The Native Minister was now, under the legislation of last year, the ideal rubber stamp Minister. Sir Apirana said that the Native Minister was left as chairman of the Native Land Settlement Board. Unless something effective was designed for quick decision and prompt following up of decisions of a body like that, they would make “a mess of any activity, which in its considerations has seasons, the proper ordering of finance, and the conduct of business according to the seasons; farming is essentially a seasonal occupation.” The Native Land Settlement Board had added two or three additional layers to the ordinary layers already in existence in all Government departments. The Minister referred to the difficulty of getting the board together, and said the members for the most pa.r* were departmental heads. System Criticised. ’•We have now a system which requires absolute paper efficiency from the unit on the scheme through the foreman to the office, and then to the Native Land Settlement Board,” he said- He said he did not know to what extent delays in the last few months could be attributed to something innate in the character of the board of administration or the new system which had been inaugurated. His opinion was that even with every part of the machine moving smoothly, there would be delays unless something was evolved. There was too much centralisation now, and not enough discretion was left to local officers or to supervisors. All these things required to be taken into consideration. He agreed with those who said that a Government department could not run a farm business; it could not perform the functions of a farmer; it could lend moneys, and because State funds were involved, the Government must have a say as to how the business must be run, whether or not the farmer liked it. The trouble now was that the Native Land Settlement Board was afraid to undertake anything until the last “t” was crossed and the last “i” was dotted, and one wondered where the board would get to under a system like that. His Honour asked the witness what he thought of the appointment of a. permanent general manager, a man who knew farming and could envisage all schemes. Sir Apirana: And see that all the elements on the scheme are looked after. That is possible. He added that the programme should be determined on well ahead. The trouble was that the Minister did not kpow till well towards the end of the financial year what money he was going to have for the following year. If that could be estimated fairly early in the current year, the programme could be fairly well arranged by late autumn, but even then the details would have to go back for approval as the work proceeded. That was responsible for some of the delays that occurred. His Honour: I- think you can take it. Sir Apirana, that we are alive to the difficulties you have been discussing. Consolidation. The witness was questioned at length as to the difficulties of consolidation. His Honour suggested that the undeveloped lands that had been brought under tho schemes should be reserved lands for the natives. The witness said he agreed with His Honour. His Honour remarked that the fundamental of the title would be that the Crown would be the trustee for the native owners. At a later stage. His Honour asked the witness if he had any alternative to consolidation. Sir Apirana: Consolidation must be rhe hand-maiden of development. In the course of his remarks dealing with the erection of a meeting-housa Sir Apirana said that it had been staled that the Native Minister was at the head of another Mau movement in New Zealand. “There is no more loyal citiIi zen in New Zealand than the present Native Minister,” he said. “The last, thing I have in my mind is to have a Mau movement in this country.” Mr, Quilliam’s Questions. In reply to Mr Quilliam. the Minister agreed that the real basis of the scheme contained in the legislation of 1929 was the use of Stare funds for the development of unimproved Maori lands. It was an experiment that could be put into practice quite slowly. Mr. Quilliam suggested that there were two distinct ideas in the Act—one the development of land and the other the provision of assistance for natives to farm tneir land. The Minister: You separate the two? Mr. Quillaam: I suggest you can very easily. The Minister: You can make the distinction if you like, but it did not apply •in practice. One merges into the other. . It is nonsense to think of farming land without doing a certain amount of development. Mr. Quilliam: No doubt you recog- ; nised at the outset all the difficulties t you would have to contend with? The Minister: I had a pretty fair > idea, knowing the various districts and their make-up. You knew you could not expect any t kind of unanimous support from the t Maoris themselves?—l quite expected j to find difficulties in a good many dis , tricts. ’ I suppose you realised from the out ’ set that good land would be difficult tc J procure, and you would have to be 1 content with inferior land? —Yes. , Mr Quilliam said that the Minastei I had mentioned the rating problem re I garding the development scheme. “Die it occupy any place in your mind?” * The Minister: Yes. That was in I eluded in one’s conception that by the development of their land and assist ante in regard to farming, the Maoris

could be placed in a position of undertaking their full share of their responsibility. That was stressed in the discussions with them, and in the contacts with local bodies. Mr. Quilliam went on to refer to the complaints made by the audit in 1932, and asked the Minister if he had tried to find out from the Under-Secre-tary how certain things had happened. The Minister: I can’t say I did. Did you ever take steps" to find out whether he had done anything to keep them from happening again?— Not specifically. I understood that steps were being taken to improve the clerical side of the office, and so on. It appeared to me that what was required was that certain officers should concentrate on the development schemes, and that was done. Reorganisation was undertaken with the existing resources of the department. His Honour; Mr. Verschaffelt says in his evidence that you could have had moro staff from him than you took. The Minister replied that two .or three years had elapsed since the posi-

tion arose. The urgent need for econ- ’ omy had been impressed on every Min- ‘ ister at that time. “We made up our minds to meet the position as best we ‘ could and to get into it—-the Minister L ‘ and everybody else,” he added. Mr. Quilliam: It sounds almost as if you had decided to take the risk. The Minister: Probably you don’t 1 sit down and deliberate two years after ’ about the risks taken in battle. . The Minister said that he had not ■’ tried, to find out the ultimate cost of 0 the schemes and to what extent there 1 would be losses. Mr. Quilliam: You agreed that this experiment has reached the stage, if it has not gone beyond it, when such, a review should be undertaken?—Yes. i-