CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 5960, 27 August 1897, Page 3

CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.

ANNUAL MEETING. Quite apleasing innovation was mad* hi connection with the annual meeting of the Canterbury Chamber of Commerce to-day, by the members lunching together before Proceeding to business. An excellent luncheon was laid out in the i large hall of the Chamber, by Mr P. Burke, to which about seventy gentlemen sat down. The chair was occupied by MrE. W. Roper (acting president), supported by Mr W. Eeece (vice-president of the Canterbury Agricultural and Fastoral Association) and Mr J. »• Tnggs (president of the Canterbury Industrial Association), the vice chairs being filled by Messrs W. D. Meares and A. Kaye. Nearly every branch o£ trade and commerce was represented. „ . Luncheon having been disposed of and the usual loyal toasts honoured in champagne, the business of the annual meeting commenced with the ballot for the. election of new members. . Messrs G. Jameson, C. Sawtell, A. Fairbairn, F. H. Hobbs, J. A. Parsons, A. L. Parsons, T. Y. Wardrop, W. Brice, F. J. Smith, G. Palmer, H. Kohn, W. C. Hill TV. Wardell, G. Bonnington, David B. Low, H. S. Hobday, T. E. Toneychffe, W. A. Tiibe, Walter Hill, E. Dombrain, W. Lake, W. M. West, Aaron Ayers, T. Brown, T.Kincaid, H. S. Kichards, J. H. Hopkins, D. Macmillan, A. Loughrey and Dr L. Jennings sere elected members. The report and balance-sheet, which were as follows, were taken as read:— lour committee has the pleasure to present the following report of the proceedings of the Chamber during the past year, and frlio balance-sheet:— . Harbour Board Elections.— The election to the-Lyttfeiton" Harbour Board took place ' in FoEriiarjr- last),,' when the Hon J.. H\ Peacock, M'.E.C:. and Mr Isaac Gibbs were returned unopposed to represent the Chamber. '

Eailway Charges.— This Chamber has not ceased .for many years in its efforts to obtain a reduction' in the rates charged for passengers and merchandise on the Lyttel-ton-Christchurch line. Your committee arranged a conference with the members of Parliament for North. Canterbury, on March 19, when the matter, was fully discussed, all the members present promising to support the Chamber in its demands for a reduction. The Government has since decided to reduce the tonnage- rate one shilling per ton. Speed of Passenger Trains.— Your committee, on the receipt of a petition signed by many influential citizens, wrote the Hon the Minister for Railways, pointing out the urgent necessity of accelerating the speed of passenger trains. The General Manager replied that it could not be done without detriment to the f c vice. Foreign Competition. — Tn adcition to the report furnished by Ihis Chamber to the Government last year, for tho Secretary of State for the Colonies, showing the value of articles imported into New Zealand from foreign countries, samples of the articles referred to have been sent to the London Chamber of Commerce.

Conference of Chambers of Commerce of Australasia.— Mr W. Devenish Meares was appointed delegate to represent this Chamber at the Conference, which took place in Sydney during last May. The thanks of the members are due to Mr Meares for attending. Amongst others ." resolutions were passed to assimilate the laws throughout the colonies relating to trade and commerce, the simplification of legal procedure, and the codification of mercantile law. Tour .committee adopted and', forwarded these resolutions to the" Government, who will consider them in future legislation. Increased Telephone Kates.— Your committee protested strongly against the increased rates. Although it was shown that the increase was a shortsighted and unbusinesslike policy, opposed to all advanced principles of progress, and not warranted by the published accounts, the Government declined to make any concession. Training Ship for the Colony —A public ineeting was convened in the hall of the Chamber, on August 4, to advocate the establishment of a training-ship, for colonial youths. Addresses were given by Captains Willis and Marciel, and the meeting decided that steps should be taken to establish a training-ship, and a committee was appointed to give effect to the resolution. . r , The President. — The president, Mr Waymouth, was granted leave, of absence on April 9, for the remainder of ;hiß term of office, and Mr Koper, vice?president, was appointed to act in his place. The Chamber.— Your committee has had under its consideration the best means of increasing the usefulness of the Chamber and the extending of its influence, and is of opinion that it would be of advantage to increase the number of the committee, that means should be taken to bring members more in touch with one another, and that public meetings should be held from time to time, at which addresses should be delivered on topics of general interest. Membership.— The number of new members nominated for election at this meeting is most • satisfactory, and is unprecedented in the history of this Chamber. The balance-sheet showed :— Receipts.— August 1, 1896 : Balance, .£3O 4s sd. July 31,° 1897: Subscriptions from members, .£296 2s ; share capital, 12s ; hire of hall and sundries, .£3O 19s ; rent of office, W. Ollivier, .£l2 10s ; interest £33 ; total, ,£403 7s sd.

Expenditure.— July 31, 1897 : Kent of chamber, .£1 50; W. Ollivier, salary and commission, £59 95 6d; caretaker, cleaning, &c, £13 ; annual report, £21 ; newspapers and books of reference, 4W5 6s 9d ; advertising, printing, stationery and binding, £33 ss; postages, exchange and miscellaneous charges, £21 19s 3d; telograms, £1 ltis 7d : telephone, £0 ; furniture, £2 10s; balance, £59 Os 4d ; total, £403 7s 5(1.

4 " - chairman's addkess. 1 The, Acting President (Mr E. W. Kopcr) 'then delivered the follbwing address :—

1 Tho report" arid balance-sheet having been placed before you, it affords me much pleasure to move their adoption. Hy tho report it will be seen that dm-insr the past twelve months tho Chamber has been occupied with many subjects of importance, HQt only to this district, YM t« ri>o colony lai Wgdi The balance-sheet tfVowfo con--1 Zincing proof that your committee, whilst attending to public business, havo not ' noo-leCteil the financial interests of the Chamber. Tho UStKW 1 traOo returns Have been prepared for your inFoi^''". a ™ ' will in duo course .bo published. Witti re " , gai'd ta Various matters with which I am about to dual, it trill, of course, bo noccssary to use a Cbttgi'fcrubjc iHimbor of , figures, but being iteVflHuUeij ttiW . V' en speaking, a subject is not WMIf M™«ff W , introducing statistics which CH& W7 b 6 properly understood when carefiuiy' ttftCt leisurely examined, I shall on this occaSftiW confine myself to such returns and estimates as ma;' bo absolutely necessary to illustrate my meaning. In tho firßt place it will bo as well to say a fow wordH about tho organisation to which wo bolong : tho recognition now accorded throughput tho Empire to, Chambers of Commorcohivs Iwid tho effect of greatly increasing il>« scopo. and value of thoir work. Thcso bodies being established for tlio cxprofiß purpoHo of; fostering that commercial ontorpriso which is the foundation of Urittoh proaperity, it is essential that buainosß men should jointhuir district Chanil)ov,and by attending its meetingfiandundortiilci'ig, wlien possible, tlio duties of office, do aoniothinj? towards maintaining our commercial supremacy. Your comniitteo boinganxious to combine find consolidate* tliu inlluonco ol nil tlio business pooplo of Cliristcluinih, have rcsolvodi to follow tlio )« |l(^ 0^ j' nw London Chambers, and wilder om' inHtitution wore popular by occnHionuUy inviting tho members to a nodal gathering at which matters of general interest cau bo informally discussed. Thoy havo also determined that whon o|)portu»ily olTors they will arrange for p,,|,1i0 iwWi'Ohhoh to be delivered upon malioru afl'ecting tho commercial woll'aro of - tho colony' Tfc |> nB been doomed adviHabli, to incroiiHO tho number of tho comintttow iW will V° fc only onablo more •inothborH 'of JO cl "i m J J( . ! !' to tako an active part \ n jt« work, but it m\l also render it pojaibio tot onv or moro

of the committee to be in attendance at our rooms at a ,fi xe d hour each morning, to meet those who desire to communicate Personally with the Chamber. It is hoped that these alterations will resalt in so large an increase of members that the influence of the Chamber will at all time* besufficient to ensure for this disftrJc* every commercial advantage t& whack ft is entitled.

.Training Ship. — In aecortSance- with the determination to- -which I have reterred, a public meeting, waa recently eonveneit by the Chamber for the- purpose of discussing the best means to- acquire a training-3hip for New Zealand. The sub* ]ect was ably introduced by Captains Willis and Marciel, who pointed out the inpny advantages that would accrue to the colony by giving out lioys an opportunity to learn seamanship. Tt! would enable those boya to earn nearly ,£S)3O;OOO per annum that ie now being paid 1 to foreigners who man the Bhips engaged in the New Zealand trade, and eventually those lads would earn far niore, for the returns show that our shipping is rapidly increasing, we had in — 1857 ... IRti vesßela of 6.CR2 tons 1877 ... 532 do 42,7.'i0 do ISO 6 ... 492 do 105,555 do

This, of course, being exclusive of the New Zealand Shipping Company's and Shaw, SaviU's vessels, which are registered in Great Britain. It was pointed out that the opening up of seamanship as a profession for our lads would enable many of them, who might otherwise become waifs and strays, to find congenial and remunerative employment, and, abo?e all, would help to foster that nautical spirit which has done so much to place Great Britain in her present position, and without which no nation can extend its commerce. A resolution affirming the principle that it would be in the best interests of this colony to establish such a training ship was moved by Mr A. E. G. Rhodes,- who, although deeply interested in the settlement of our land, considered it essential we should teach some of ouij people to be sailors, so that in the future New Zealand would not only be independent of foreigners for the transport of her merchandise, but would if the hour of need arrived, be able to supply men who would take their share in the defence of the Empire. The resolution was seconded by his Honor Mr Justice Denniston, who considered that one of the most important functions of the proposed training ship would be to rescue lads who, through bad surroundings, or an excess of animal spirits, were inclined to go astray. He considered that if these boys were subjected to the healthfvil discipline of a training ship they would, in almost every instance, become worthy members of society. After several other gentlemen had spoken upon the subject, the resolution was carried unanimously. A stiong committee was then appointed to consider the matter, and take whatever steps they thought advisable to give effect to the resolution. As the proposal has full public sympathy, and is heartily supported by 'the Press, your committee have every hope that the Government will be induced to take the matter in hand, and assist in opening 1 up the nautical profession to the youth of this colony.

Kailways.— lt is satisfactory to find that the efforts of this Chamber to obtain an abatement of charges on the Lyttelton line have at last been partially successfully. The reduction of Is per ton on the carriage of merchandise will bring our port railway charges more in unison with those ruling in other parts of the colony. In compliance with an infiuentially-signed requisition to this Chamber, a letter was sent to the Minister of. Eailways, , urging .that,, for .the . convenience of steamboat passengers and v business people," quick through trains should run every morning and evening between Christchurch and Lyttelton, and that on the Southbridge and Springtield sections the speed of passenger trains should be increased from the present crawling pace of twelve or thirteen miles an hour to a minimum speed of eighteen miles. The reply received from the General Manager of Eailways was to the effect that as the tunning of through trains on the Lyttelton section would only result in a saving of six or seven minutes (or. in other words, about 25 per. cent of the time occupied), and as the Springfield and Southbridge services would be impaired by an increase of speed, the Government would not be prepared to give effect to the suggestions made by the Chamber. This reply betrays such a complete want of appreciation of the value of time to the travelling public that it can only be supposed the letter was written if or the purpose of shelving the question, as so many other matters of public interest to Canterbury have been shelved in the past. To bring about the alterations so urgently needed, it will be necessary for our members of Parliament, whose combined action so materially aided the Chamber in obtaining the reduction of goods charges between Christchurch and Lyttelton, to demand, not only a corresponding abatement in the passenger rates on that line, but also an increase in the speed of certain passenger trains on the Lyttelton, Southbridge and Springfield sections. Main Trunk and Midland Railways.— The geographical position of Christchurch renders it extremely difficult to extend her trade coastwise, and unfortunately the districts to the north and west, with which she should have the closest commercial relations, are altogether shut off owing to the non-completion of the main trunk and Midland railways. As the people of Westland, Canterbury and the northern districts are all equally anxious for these lines to be completed, surely the day is not far distant when the combined voices of the members representing these districts will be so distinctly heard in the House, that it will be deemed inadvisable to further delay the completion of lines that would do more than any other public works to develop (the resources of tic northern half of the Middle Island. As the first obligation of ii commercial organisation lileo ours is to foster trade, it is clonrly the duty of this Chamber to do its utmost to bring about the construction of these railways. In pursuance of this policy, your committee have resolve that as soon i\s it may be expedient, they will call a public meeting at which this momentous question can bo fully discussed. Colonial Federation.— As tho subject of Australian federation is likely to occupy the attention, of the. public for some timo to come, It will not bo out of place to convoy as briefly as possible somo idea of what would bo the financial position wore Now Zealand to fedomto with Australia. Mr M'Millnn, a most ablo exponent of Australian federation, clearly showed in his nui!»"v9s to t lic Sydney Congress of OlutinWfi Hint tlits Imsta of foflQi'nWnn must bo coiiipltstti intoi'colouial fVcbtiikli 1 , and that tho Kodernl Council would j jjeccßsurily take over" ml Customs j alld' oxc'so revenue, undttrinkti tho defence of tho jolonius, the umintguiiftcti. of i quarantines and lighthouses, and attiKHii-* stfcr' tho post and telogmpli services. Tho C^AinS re von (to being tho main source to vrhidu {m co\onioa look for tho paymont o"f iufcorofi oiv\ flieiv 1 public dobls< it would, in all probability/bo necessary for tho Federal Government, VnOn'.|frikjng over the colonial income, to charge litoif with tho responsibility of paying tho iuVdrt^ti 6nth&j(.V<M>ts, If t'liiH wore done, tho aceoillit Would 1 rftfrcml as follows: — IWTIMATKI) YKAIU.Y ICXIMCNI>ITIiH,K, . „ lutmoHt oil Ahh(viUuhluihl«W.b ... iiß,Mß.ofifl , KxHiwoof i'urli-nil Uovoimnmil ... -1 70,f( M >, , (/'olli'isiloiiof mifltoniHinul oxfimi ... !*s(i,onOi, I.iiHMon |h\h(, timl toluKttiliU HMvl'Ji't* 1.'10.000 Navlftntloii !\ii'! (iimriinliiH! 100,u)0 JM.iieu ABO.fIUU .CIO.IL'K.OOO UHVKN'I'i:. ♦JiiMtnnw imtf ox<!ihi> 7.820.0X) Leiiviiimulcllcilor .CLV-'UO.IOO (lint would httvo to lio iuiulo good either l\y if tic in vc ovor 'I'" iailwayn, which aro r<(B|)onnibU< f»i' a largo portion of tho public <lobf, or by ciW'-h *.'<»lony or .Stain paying a hluuo proportionate to its population. The quention ».<■ ho ankwl by N«w '/oaland is to what oxioni. blio would bo bunontod by loining t)u« pro)>om.'tl Would hor doi'nnct s ho improved, or hor oommorco bo iucvciiKcid F 8° '''«■'• UH h«r (lofoticos aro concoi'JHHl, if >var wi«r<> «loelaro<l against tho ISmpli-o, it would bo hor duty and prido, l>y tho' aid of llol ' t°° "I" 0 ' 1 no^oclod voluntuoi'H, to (loftnid herself on Hhoro ; and 6ho certainly could not, uudor such circuui-

1 stances, e.vpect or accept assistance from the sister colonies, whose reaources would be fully ta^sed in defending themselves. By sea, her interests with those of the Empire would", of course, be guarded by Britain's magnificent fleet. With regard to our commerce, fears have sometimes been expressed that New Zealand's noninclusion in the Australasian federation would possibly militate against her future progress, inasmuch as her products might be shut out of the Anstralian market. ,In reply to this view, it must be remembered ! that Australian federation, on the lines at present laid down, may prove iinpracticsble, or it may be found inexpedient to support a Federal Council with its separate central Boaids of Administration for customs,, defence, railways, public debts, &c, but even if the six Australian colonies did federate on the basis of complete interfreetrade, it would still be open to New Zealand, without any sacrifice of her autonomy, to enter into such agreements with United Australia as would ensure not only a free exchange of colonial products and complete commercial reciprocity, but also united action in all matters affecting the welfare of the Empire.

Imperial Federation.— Whatever may be the outcome of the attempt to form a commonwealth of all Australia, it is quite certain that Mr Chamberlain's tactful treatment of the colonies has had the effect of greatly strengthening the commercial union of the Mother Country and her dependencies. The cordial reception and generous hospitality accorded to the colonial representatives who attended the Jubilee Celebrations in London afford ample proof of the high estimation in which the distant nations of the Empire are held by the people of Great Britain. It is a significant fact that in the Jubilee procession the Premiers and troops representing the colonies received a welcome from the people second only in its enthusiasm to that accorded to the Queen herself. This heartwhole recognition of the colonies has done more to establish the federation of the Empire than any Act of Parliament that could be placed upon our statute hooks. Should the time ever come for that union to be tested, England will certainly find no reason to regret the honours she accorded to the colonies during the year of Jubilee.

New Zealand's Progress. — It is impossible to examino the Australasian statistics without being struck by the increase of population and enormous expansion of trade that have taken place in so short a time that nearly the whole development of these southern nations has been observed by persons still living. Only sixty years ago the population of Australasia was less than 130,000, and the annual trade was about .£2,000,000. To-day the population exceeds 4,300,000, and the total trade amounts to .£115,000,000. New Zealand haa certainly not been less enterprising than her sister colonies, for since the signing of the Waitangi Treaty in 1840, that memorable year in which the Natives acknowledged British supremacy, the work of colonisation has proceeded with remarkable rapidity. In the following year, when the colony separated from New South Wales, there were already 1200 settlers, and in 1861, noted for the opening up of the Otago goldfields, the population had grown to 99,000, that year's yield of the precious metal being 194,2340z, and the wool exported amounting to 7,855,9?01b. In 1881 was inaugurated that surprising industry, the frozen meat trade; which commencing with an export in the first year of 15,244 cwt, valued at .£19,329, has rapidly grown until in 1895 the export amounted to 1,134,281 cwt; valued" at £1,262,711 ; and, although ■ owing to a-B.evere winter there was a slight, falling off in 1893, the export of 729,899 . cwtinthefirst half of this year, thej'largest on, record.for a similar period, gives eyidetace of a stilHnrther expansion of this important trade. It is satisfactory to find' that in the year ending June 30 last, the general exports from the colony, valued at .£9,341,959, were the largest for the past five years, and surpassed the previous year by ,£161,582. This improvement may be fairly credited to Lyttelton, for her exports exceeded those of the previous year by .£162,995, the figures being for 1895-96 .£1,648,523, and for 1896-97 £1,811,518. The colony's export of wool for the past year, amounting to 370,905 bales, shows a»,increase of 6398^ bales over the previous year, and here again it is gratifying to know that this improvement is more than accounted for by the increased exportfrom Canterbury .of 6429. bales. Unfortunately any improvement in these exports must be estimated by quantity and not by value, as I owing to the low prices now ruling throughout the world, the returns of our exports shown in pounds sterling do not really convey a correct idea of our progress. For example, 20,928,7591bs of wool exported from Lyttelton in the year ending June 30, 1893, were valued at £803.381, this year our export of 22,035,5841 bis valued at only £754,030, or about £90,000 less than if sold at the prices ruling in .1893. On reading the various colonial returns one cannot fail to notice the enormous increase that has taken place in the production of wool. The evergrowing demand for this staple is accounted for by the growth of population in Europe, , which from 1860 to 1890 amounted to 70.000,000 or 25 per cent. These extra millions of people not only increased the demand for wool, but they lessened the local supply by using for agricultural purposes land that previously had been devoted to grazing sheep, the number of 3heep decreasing during the quoted period by 37,000,000, or 16 per cent. Nothing, probably, will convey a better idea of the enterprise of the people of this colony than a review of the expenditure that has taken place on public works during the last twenty-five years. From 1870 to 1896 the colony spent on — Railways Innniijriiticn riivStl Purchase ot lands 1,297,50 l Lighthouse and lmrbour works, &c. ... ~.., Harbour defence ,J,'2,[[ Contingent defence Irjf'iin Telegraphs roi 1 ?^ Development of soldtteltls •£'/.^ Public buildings ... -.°.-^? tt*l mines ™nin Departmental public works ... ... ''sfi.l42 Honda nucl bridees ... : H™*^ Jsxi>i nss of ruiuhig loans .„ 1.020,52s £25,0«4,179 It must bo remembered that at the timo this expenditure commenced New Zealand contained only about half its present population, and that oven now with over 700,000 white people, nioro than half of whom by the way are New Zealand bovr,, only 300,000 aro bread-winners. One of tho results of this heavy expenditure on public works has been the creation of a Mblic dobt that is. of course 1 ?n™-~-y». . ■ ..... ._-... ..., .'-■^••- i'-J "vij^V f#»4 flui-llon to UiO population j the average being iJCd per head as compared to .£l3 Pol' head in Great Britain. Fortunately, this debt is not so burdensome ns might at first sight appear, for apart from amounts fep6nt ori latids that have been more or i«<rt4 romu'njef ativd, a' large proportion of the moHd^j vk., 1 £17,520,100, was expouded on directly £'^ou«Vctive wqrks , such as.milv\%'B, tolocfl'ft^Jis had. waterworks, .^h^cU pay : Afiiir interest &H the cost of construc.tion. ftufc tho true Sftt-tfff to our debt i is. tho colony's weftith, p.ubWt and" private, which really owes its e xteb&iki* to the borrowed capital that was\ expend' in developing tho resources of t>:o coufi'il'y. 'This wealth consists. of public '■■ property, ! valued at £-l. r >,000,000. and private wealth |i}titl?niated at £170,000,000, including such jii'o'ms as

Lnjij)', buiifUiitfH ami improvements ... A'PO.OGG.OOO Livestock L'15,29!\000 I'roflueO'rtili! lncTcbmulise 1:14,408,000 Furni^ufts and lVonaohold goods ... JCS.SKJS.OOI) tho total private wealth being equal in all to i!23fj'po"r"Nca l d of population, an averago cor tain ly'sttrtoassed in Great Britain, but unequalled uy' any foreign nation. It is satisfactory tb find that although our public dobt'. has increased, taxation is lighter now p thah' it was years ago. In 1882 tho sum'"cb'titributed per head was «C 3 10s 10(1; last 'year it was .£3 7s Id, an amount that canuot 1 bo considered unduly oppressive whoh, it is remembered that Now Zoalandera occupy the enviable position of enjoying tho largest average income of any pooplo in tho , world, their averago being -fill as compared with £39 in tho United States, JXI'S 7s in the United Kingdom, £27 8s in ; France, £22 in Germany, JJI9 in Switzerland and' JJI-1 5s in

KuEßiiv.. Not only have we lite largest income;, bnt the cost of living h" as;, fortunately,, become less, as will be seem % comparing* the prices paid for provision* "fey the old settlers with the oost off swnilar articles to-day. For example;, iky 1864 bread cost 3|d per lb, beef and' mutton Bsd, sugar 6d, tea 3s, fresh butter -2Sj;.clkeeße Is 4d, a-nxi milk 6d per quart ; now,, nearly all these necessaries can be boupttt for less thai* half those prices, and! yet, notwithstanding the cheapness ofi provisions, we . spend annually, more money for food, diink and clothing 1 ;. &c, than any other people in the world, our average being .£35 6s Id, as compared with =632 16s 2lim the United States, .£29>]!4fe9d in the United Kingdom, .£23 19s< 4d' in France, and .£2O 3s 2d in Germany. These facts suffice to show how great liaa-bsen New Zealand's progress, a progress which has not bpen properly realised either Here, where pessimism has been too- mnch the fashion, nor even in the' Old Country, although there the straggle for existence is so keen that the return for industry is often insufficient to satisfy legitimate wants. When New Zealand's true position is really understood, not only will there be move contentment among, oar present settlers, but that contentment will be shared by thousands of small capitalists, who will only too gladly migrate to a country where they can be assured' ofia fair return bobh for -their money and: their labour.

Mr Kaye, in seconding the adopt fen of the report and balance-sheet, referred 1 to the address of the Chairman, which, must be most interesting to them all. The new departure in the proceedings that dl*y was at the suggestion of Mr Roper, and it was a pronounced success, and would no> doubt tend to popularise the Chamber. He suggested that meetings should be held monthly in order to discuss any matters, and also to ventilate any grievances wlich the commercial community might be labouring under. He concurred in the remarks made-by the Chairman, more especially in jespect to the reply received from the- Government in ; Connection with* the. .'acceleration of speed on our railway*. The question • of ; prpetirr ing a .training ship was only taken up by the Chamber in the manner that in future that body, would be glad' to take \ip any' subject which any citizen, whether a member of the Chamber or not, wished to bring up which was for the benefit of the community.

The report and balance-sheet were then adopted.

A special meeting was then held, at which it was decided to alter the rules bo as to allow of the number of the committee being extended from mm* to fifteen.