HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 6241, 18 May 1888, Page 4

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thdbsda't, May 17. The Bouse met at 2,30 p.m. QUESTIONS. Mr O'Cali^ghan asked the Premier "what amount of the .£400,000 debentures authorised by Section 2 of the Public Eevenues Act, 1887 (No. 3), has been negotiated? Sir H. Atkinson said it was unusual to disclose partial information on matters of this kind, but he would supply all particulars in the Financial Statement. Mr . Valentine asked the Minister for Defence if the Government are prepared to restore the unattached list for Volunteer officers, which waa in force under the [Regulations, of 1883, but whioh has been discontinued by subsequent regulations ; and will Government extend its application to officers of all ranks in the Volunteer force? Tha Hon T, Fsbgus said Government had the matter under consideration, and it would probably be given effect to. Mr Valsntine asked the Government whether, in framing a new Customs tariff, they will take into consideration the question of the re-establishment of distilleriea in the Colony, and affording some encouragement to the industry. The Hon G. Fisher said Government Bad no intention of introducing a law to amend the Distillation Act this session. TOTALIBATOB EARNINGS. Mr Taylor resumed the interrupted debate on the question — " That in the opinion of this House it ia desirable that Government should introduce a measure during the present session, providing that & portion of the earnings of totalise ora should be by Act appropriated for the purposes of Hospital and Charitable Aid," Motion agreed to by 60 to 13. LOAN ACT REPEAL BILL. Sir H. Atkinson moved the second reading of the Now Zealand Loan Act, 1887, Repeal Bill. He explained that after considerable discussion last session, Government consented to insert a olause limiting the borrowing power to three years. He had inserted that clause at the urgent request of several hon members, who wished that this proviso should be fixed by Apt. Whatever blunder waa committed over the matter was committed by himself, and he waa prepared to take the responsibility of it. He held, however, that it was also the duty of the Opposition to see that a clause of this kind was properly inserted. It was so palpable, however, that the clause as passed would affect very seriously the loan proposed to be floated, that he was astonished it had escaped hia notice at the time. Government had to consider whether the urgency was of such a nature as to justify them in calling Parliament together to rectify the matter ; but after going fully into it, they decided j to call the House together at the earliest possible date. Government were advised to get the Loan Bill passed, before the Financial Statement was brought down, in order that it might get Home at a favourable time for floating the loan. Government were in possession of information which rendered it advisable that_the Bill should be put right as soon as* "possible. They were asking for nothing new, but only for the amount which was granted by the House hist session. Government were also advised not to inseit in the Bill a clause prohibiting borrowing for thret years, but they were prepared to give a guarantee to that effect. He might state that there was no alteration whatever in the Bill now brought down, except the omission of the clause he had referred to. Mr Downie Stewart complained that the Premier had not taken the House altogether into his confidence over this matter. He charged that hon gentleman with having been guilty of conduct which was most reprehensible, in having, after a large number of members had left for their home 3 last session, caused to be reinserted in the Loan Bill votes which were previously struck out by the House. He (Mr Stewart) did not regard thia as a very honourable transaction. It put those members who had left Wellington in a very awkward position. He asserted that, by the blunder which had been committed in this direction, a large amount of money had been lost to the Colony through the Colonial Treasurer having raised money in other quarters at a higher rate of interest. He ventured to state that .£60,000 or JE7O.OGO would not cover the loss caused by thia transaction, and the Premier could not deny it. Sir H. Atkinson : I deny it absolutely. Mr Stewart went on to state that Sir H. Atkinson had also broken his pledge that he would call the House together early in April to consider the tariff question. The fact of large numbers of people leaving the Colony was a matter of indifference to the Preuder, who was prepared to ruin the country for the sake of remaining in office. Ho contended that they were entitled to have from the Premier some explanation of the state of the Colony before they granted this loan. Mr Hutohison, as one of the members who were present on Dec. 22 last, thought it only right to bear testimony to the subBtantial correctness of what had just been stated. The attitude of the Premier now, and on that occasion, presented very different aspects. Now, he was all penitence and humiliation, but then he was arrogant and overbearing. He distinctly asserted that, in the matter of the Immigration voto alone, the Premier was guilty of a breach o£ faith with the House. The vote, which the Premier now tried to defend, was carried with, a high hand, and with tho arr< gance of a Tambour Major. Mr Tubnbull said tha House should insist upon knowing, when the Bill was in Committee, how much the Colony had lost by the blunder which had occurred iv the Loan Act. He should support the Bill in. ifca entirety, but they should have the f ulleßt information on it. He might stato, in justice to the Premier, that when the Loan Bill was going through last session, he had replied to him (Mr Turnbull) that he was going to bring down the amount for immigration unallotted. Although he was opposed to the Government, he waa not prepared to oppose the Bill, as the money was urgently required. It was not the public debt which was killing the country, but the Bixty millions of private indebtedness in the Colony. Mr Fish congratulated the Premier on his penitence over thi3 matter, and he w&s also to be commended for taking the whole of the blame for the blunder which had begn committed on himself. The Premier was, however, guilty of a great breach of faith over the Bill last session, after so many members had left for their homes, and ho felt so strongly on this matter that he was determined in future to remain till all the business of the House was finished. He hoped the Premier would give some information as to the cost to the Colony of the blunder which had occurred. With respect to that portion of the Bill relating t/v ft TTriTKnn-fttr f.hn North Island line, he thought it wouia be a wise thing for the

Colony to reduce the amount for that line, ; as tho present was not the time for con- | etruoting works of that description. : Mr Scobie Mackenzie asked whether it i was proposed to make any change in the • schedule of the Loan Bill. ' ; Sir H. Atkinson said he would ask the House to pass the Bill exactly as it stood at present. Mr O'Callaghan said the House had had a distinct pledge from the Premier that if the House made any reduction in the Loan Bill he should accept that reduction. They were entitled to hear from the Premier some explanation as to the £70,000 unallotted in the Bill. It was very chivalrous of the Premier to take all the blame on himself, but there was not the slightest blame to be attached to the Opposition, and the Piemier had no right to make any assertion to that effect. ; Major Steward would support the Loan Bill, a,3 it would provide employment for a largo number of people who required it. They should also endeavour to apportion some of this money towards the formation ; of agricultural labourers' settlements. He I held that there was no better object to which the unallotted sum of £70,000 could be devoted than the establishment of such settlements as those he had referred to, as he felt that it -would be beneficial to small settlers. Mr Taylor objected to .£70,000 being expended for immigration purposes, and protested against any more money being borrowed for the purpose of bringing people to the Colony. Mr Samubl entirely dissented from the last speaker, and thought it most desirable to offer every facility to people to settle in the country. Dr Hodokinson, as a supporter of the Government, found himself in a very awkward position over this matter, aa he had alwaya been opposed to this spendthrift polioy of borrowing. He could nofc tee the necessity for borrowing the largo sum of .£2,400,000. Sir H. Atkinson said if time permitted he should like to show the absurdity of the speech delivered^ by Mr Downie Stewart. He distinctly denied that he had broken his word over the Loan Bill, and appealed to tho member for Timaru, who, at any rate, was no supporter of his, to confirm him in this. In future he should take care that no member of the Opposition who refused to take the word of a gentleman, and was away looking after his own business instead of that oi: the country, should receive any promise from him as to the progress of business. The debate wao interrupted by tho 5.30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. THE LOAN ACT REPEAL BILL. Sir H. Atkinson continued hib remarks. He said the members for Timaru, Christchurch, and Sydenham had corroborated hia statement that he had distinctly stated last session that when tho .£70,000 was struck out it would be brought clown unappropriated. He thought thp.t effectually disposed of the ch&rges made by the member for Duuedin "West as to bi3 having broken hia word, and committed a breach of faith with the House. He denied altogether he had given a pledge to reduce the loan if votes were struck out. The whole burden of his speech on the question last session was that if any substantial reduction wore made in the j loan he should accept it, and on that condition only. The reason why he did not explain how he had financed in consequence of the loan not having been raised, was because he considered is beside the question. What had happened wa3 this. Immediately he found oub the mistake that had taken plaeo in the Loan Bill he realised that he should be short of money to carry on with, and the House could autborUe .£400,000 of debentures to meet the deficiency. Ho had obtained an advance of upon them, at 5 per cent for three years, without commission or any other expense. The money had been placed to their credit at London. Thia operation, which had been conducted I through tho Colonial Bank, bore very favourable comparison to a similar operation last year, when 5 and 6 per cent interest had to be paid, with 2 per cent commission for remitting the money to London. The Agent-General had also obtained an extension of half a million o£ Northern Line Trunk debentures to July, which would be paid off out of this loan. These were the whole financiaitranaattions which had taken place. The motion for the second reading was agreed tc on the voices. NEW ZEALAND LOAN BILL. Sir H. Atkinson inovel tUo second reading of the New Zealand Loan Bill without any remarks. Mr Scobie Mackenzie tb ought before the Bill wa3 passed it might be accompanied with a material guarantee a3 to future borrowing. He felt bound to propose an amendment, which ho hoped the Government would accept. As to the alleged breach of faith against the Premier, of which so much had been said, he (Mr Mackenzie) distinctly heard the Premier say that if the .£70,000 was struck off the schedule it would be brought down unallotted. In moving his amendment ho desired to take no hostile action whatever, and had nothing in view beyond a sense of duty. He also disclaimed any intention of competing with the Opposition in the course he was adopting. His amendment was — " That it ia inexpedient to proceed with the Loan Bill until the. j House is satisfied, i'voin iutocruation | supplied by the Government, that .the j expenditure under it will so far complete ; tho railways as to enable the public works ] railway policy to be laid aside, until the j increase of the population of the Colony, j the recovery oE its revenues, snd the I expansion of its trade, are t-ucli as to j warrant its resumption." He inferred in j detail to the various lines proposed to be. pushed on, and contended that a large ' amount of money would yet require to be borrowed to complete them. He would ] j ask whether it was justifiable for them to , j go on pursuing a course of railway con- j struction which they knew would be j dirtctly unprofitable, and which the \ Colony could not stand. He was not j going to put either Fraetrede or Protection forward as being lively to save the country, but the condition of the Colony was due to past extravagance and privato indebtedness. If they were to progress, | they must stop the present course oil borrowing, and the lead should be taken by the Government in this matter. The first thing to do was toreatore confidence in the Colony to English investors, and they could not do that unless they were able to fall back on their own resources. Until they could do that they should Btop i their present system of borrowing. He i had it on the be3t authority that there j ■ were' really only two lines in the Colony urgently calling for assistance, which were the Gorge line and tho Otago Central. He ] cared little whether the oiause limiting ; borrowing for three years were inserted or not. "What was wanted was a guarantee that they should not go on the English i j money market till they were in a sound j f position to do so. He wished to remind i | the House thac he Lad no hostile design j i whatever iv moving his amendment, which I | he hoped to see carried. j j Mr Allen pointed out that the Bill now | | brought down differed frcm that of last j f yoar in some respects. He had hoped the ! '; Goverur/iwjt would have accepted the ■ ' ameirtmont, as in tlyw case, although he : j had uuvor been altogether bound to the :, j Government, he should otill have supj ported them, and he- did nob wish to say he j would not continue that support. He believed there was a greafc desiru by many j people in the Colony to hiiag the railway policy to an end, and undei the present conditions he did not sao that a little delay in raising the loan would have any Bad effect. It would place them in a position of knowing whether the railways could be carried to reasonable points, and if that were proved, there could then be little opposition to the Bill. Dr Newman referred to Mr Scobie \ Mackenzic'a inconsistency in voting for the 1 Otago Central line, and then moving an . amendment which led to the defeat of another line in the North Island. He I thought it would bo exceedingly unwise for members, in face of the Premier's J statement that it was urgently necesI sary the Bill should go Home.bysthe nest

mail, to delay it in the manner proposed. He felt they could not go on borrowing as they had been doing in -- the past. He asked the Premier to meet his opponents by leaving the schedules of the Bill practically blank, and let the House allot the amounts. He twitted Mr. Allen with supporting the Otago Gentral and opposing the North Island Trunk Bail way. Mr Moss felt grateful to the member for Mount Ida for the amendment he had proposed, and he for one should go into the lobby with him. He had felt for years past that they should put the finances of the Colony on a more solid foundation, and for that reason he cordially supported the amendment. Mr Fish said the member for Mount Ida seemed to bo all things by turns and nothing long. He was not going to join one or two members of the Government party in this amendment simply to give a snub to the Government. If he (Mr Fish) wanted to vote against the Government, he should do so in a fair and open manner. The member for Mount Ida seemed to him to resemble a boa constrictor more than anything else he could compare him to. He would a3k in wbat respect the Loan ■ Bill differed from that of last year? The only difference was the omission of a clause which nobody cared anj thing about. The hon gentleman kcew as well aa anybody that Government could not do without a loan. He (Mr Fish) wished to say ho had no sympathy with motions of this kind, and they should never meet with his support. Mr Downib Stewart said that instead of the Premier introducing the Bill in the jaunty manner he had dorse, he should have taken the House into his confidence and given the House full details of hia finance in the meantime- He quoted Hansard as to the Premier's speech on tho Loan Bill la3t session, and said he stood condemned by hia own worda, and instead of being treated very unfairly, as some members had stated, he considered ho had been treated very leniently. He considered they should now face their difficulties boldly and say borrowing should not proceed further, unless they could sea their way to do so. Mr Bakron thought they should congratulate themselves on the fact that a mistake was made in the Loan Bill last year which rendered it necessary to bring in another Bill to re-enact it. Ho thought the fact of the Premier being able to conclude such a profitable transaction aa he had done, owing to the non-raising of the loan, showed they could dopend on their own resources. He failed to eeo that any of the lines in the schedule required borrowed money for their construction. He thought a proviso aB to borrowing limits should be inserted in the Bill, but he was not aware till tho Premier reminded him, that whether inserted in the Bill or not, it would appear in the prospectu3. As for himself, ho was always opposed to borrowing, and he was opposed to it now, and he hoped if this Bill did not pass, the Colony would get on without it. Mr Eeevrs (St Albans) congratulated the member for Mount Ida on the sfcep ho 1 had taken that night, having actually followed up his worda by dofinito action. They had all, however, heard that speech before, in the previous session, and he. ! congratulated that hon gentleman, and the member for Cavershauv on having at last found a remedy for tho depression which existed. He (Mr Rsevc3) felt I strongly tempted to vote for the amenclj inent, but he could not do so, as the hon gentleman had a slap at the Opposition by t saying he was not coquetting with them. He had no intention of joining a rabid Freetrader like the member for Mount Ida, by supporting thi3 amendment, until he i saw whether the Premier was likely to bring down a polioy which would assist the interests and industries of the Colony. If he failed to do so, then he should be happy to assiEt the member for Mount Ida in bringing about the Premier's defeat. Mr Kerb said he should support the amendment, not because ha wished to vote with the member for Mount Ida, who belonged to no party, but because he was opposed to borrowing. Messrs Taylor, Beeves (Inangahua), Blake, Fitchett, Seddon, and Hobbs oppoEed tho amendment, which was lost by 65 to 7. The Bill was then read a second time, and the House went into Commit; cc on the Loan Act Repeal Bill, which passed without alteration. NEW ZEALAND LOAN BILL IN COMMITTEE. The New Zealand Loan Bill was committed. Mr Samuel, moved the insertion of a new clause limiting borrowing to three years. He said h3 did co to give Ministers pewer to do what they had already done, and trusted the Government would raise no objection to proper legal authority being given for their action. ; Sir H. Atkinson was sorry he could not accept the clause. He did not think any unconstitutional act would be committed if the clause were not inserted in the Bill. Mr Mills asked what would be the j rcroper time to vote for the North Island Truntr line being reduced to .£600,000, the j amount already expended ? Sir H. Atkinson said tho proper time would bo when the Government proposals came before the House. It might a)so be necessary to stop work on the Otago Central Railway, as well a3 the North IsJp.nd Eailway. j Mr Keeves (St Albans) asked what objection there could be to insert this < clause, if the Government had determined not to raise any further loan for three years ? yir H. Atkinson said the reason was that people lending money were very conservative. Anything unusual in a Loan Bill excited their suspicion. He thought it very unde ; irable at tho present time to put such a clause in the Bill. After further discussion, Mr Samuel withdrew tha clause. He said after the expression of the Premier's i opinion on the matter he had no desire to press it. , The schedule passed without alteration, after some discussion. ' The New Zealand Loan Bill and tho Loan Act Repeal Bill were read a third time. On the title of the Loan Bill beiDg ■ reached, Mr Hutchison moved to strike out thp word " Immigration " from the title. Sir XT. Atkinson hoped the amendment would not ho pivssed, as he was very anxious the Bill should be parsed as it st> oAMr Hutchison then withdrew bia amen'dnie&t, and the Bill passed. Tiie Housorosß >yt 1 a.in.